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Linux in 2004?

An anonymous reader writes "John Terpstra and Eric S. Raymond have started the ball rolling on LinuxWorld's poll of the community for what they think will happen in the world of Linux in 2004. Terpstra says 'I predict that during 2004 at least one significant USA government body will adopt Linux on the desktop.'" Depending on how you define "significant", this has already occurred.

456 comments

  1. Yay! by jon3k · · Score: 1, Insightful

    I think this will be a(nother) great year for linux. Long live Open Source Software :)

    1. Re:Yay! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For Michael: significant

  2. As long as ESR sticks to asking the questions.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    ...and not answering them himself.

    Windows will be obsolete when PCs cost less than $350: http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/02/28/132424 8

    MS monopoly to collapse in 6 months: http://slashdot.org/articles/00/12/13/216237_F.sht ml (predicted in Dec. 2000)

  3. Apt by rf0 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I found the following intresting

    "I think 2004 is going to be a big year for Fedora and Suse, and a challenge for Debian (because Fedora now offers apt for RPM)."

    Well apart from the fact that apt for rpm has been around for a while and also debian packages usually come configured a lot better than fedora are aren't as buggy.

    Of course with the recent Debian security breach things might not be that easy

    Rus

    1. Re:Apt by dotslashdot · · Score: 0

      Linux has already replaced this laptop. If only ACPI actually worked, I could use the laptop correctly (hibernating to disk) instead of constantly shutting down and restarting. What a pain!

    2. Re:Apt by mhesseltine · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Agreed. The power of apt isn't necessarily the tool, it's the repository that apt connects to. After all, it's the thousands of packages that are tested against each other that creates a cohesive system.

      --
      Overrated / Underrated : Moderation :: Anonymous Coward : Posting
    3. Re:Apt by LnxAddct · · Score: 5, Funny
      I run Fedora and Debian and apt for Fedora is pathetic compared to apt for Debian. Its mainly because the repositories aren't as large and I could probably fix that with some configuration changes, but go to freshrpms.net, the entire list can be viewed all at once. I know that on Debian I could type "apt-get install GodLikePowers" and in seconds I'd have god like powers, but if I were to type that in Fedora I'd get:
      Reading Package Lists...
      Done Building Dependency Tree...
      Done E: Couldn't find package GodLikePowers

      Once the sources for apt for rpm become more robust, then Debian may have something to worry about, after all, the installation of Fedora actually made me smile it was so easy.
      -Steve
      P.S. I know that GodLikePowers also wouldn't work on Debian, it was simply an example.
    4. Re:Apt by rf0 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      With apt I know that if I install a program it will work or at least be given a configuration screen to edit the settings

      Rus

    5. Re:Apt by millette · · Score: 0
      I thought your post was funny :)

      Where are mod points when you need them?

    6. Re:Apt by BrokenHalo · · Score: 1

      Personally, I can't see Fedora taking off at all. There are several mature distros available for the desktop that have been proven to be reliable and relatively bug-free, and which have an established presence in terms of user-base. Fedora seems to have claimed most of RedHat's weaknesses, and few of its strengths.

    7. Re:Apt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "You have to type commands in Linux? Why can't I just click something?" - the cry of Joe Six-pack.

      Reason number 1 why Linux will NOT replace Windows on the home desktop for at least a while yet.

    8. Re:Apt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not to sound like a troll, but I think Debian is finished for the non-hacker/hobbyist and here is why.

      * Debian has gone from being overcautious to out of date. 3.x is still on the 2.2 kernel by default. Other distros are on 2.4 and looking to 2.6 already. The packages have the same problem.

      * I hate to mention it, but I have too. The installer sucks. No business is going to roll out a distro as complex and time consuming as Debian's install.

      * Appearance. Suse / Red Hat look more like professional distros from start to finish.

    9. Re:Apt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      P.S. I know that GodLikePowers also wouldn't work on Debian, it was simply an example.

      Of course not. The Debian policy doesn't allow that format in the names. It probably would be 'apt-get install glp', 'apt-get install godlike-powers' or something like that.

      But it would probably fail with a message in the likes of

      """
      Package glp has no available version, but exists in the database.
      This typically means that the package was mentioned in a dependency and
      never uploaded, has been obsoleted or is not available with the contents
      of sources.list
      E: Package glp has no installation candidate
      """

    10. Re:Apt by GreyWolf3000 · · Score: 1
      What would be cool is a gui frontend to apt repositories...oh wait. It's called "Click-n-run."

      I wish the rest of us Linux users would get our heads out of our asses and realize that other distributions need this.

      --
      Slashdot: Where people pretend to be twice as smart as they really are by behaving like children.
    11. Re:Apt by Briareos · · Score: 1

      Actually, suspending to disk isn't an ACPI-only feature; all it needs is kernel and (some) driver support.

      Like this: http://swsusp.sourceforge.net/

      np: Plaid - Quick Emix (Spokes)

      --

      "I'm not anti-anything, I'm anti-everything, it fits better." - Sole

    12. Re:Apt by cyclist1200 · · Score: 1

      Great, it's happened. A Lindows-only post.

      Synaptic anyone??

    13. Re:Apt by Holi · · Score: 1

      Or you could try Synaptic.

      --
      Sorry, teleporters just kill you and then make a copy. A perfect, soul-less copy.
    14. Re:Apt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are completely right.

      Soon, Debian will be "down there" with the other "unmentionables" like *BSD that are only left to use be OS zealots.

    15. Re:Apt by Oxide · · Score: 0

      Fedora Core 1 is what was supposed to be Redhat 10. That is mature enough for me

    16. Re:Apt by IM6100 · · Score: 1

      Yes, but the power of the Apt tool is reflected in the huge number of packages that have embraced it. Clearly the high volume demonstrates it's scalable.

      --
      A Good Intro to NetBS
    17. Re:Apt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Please... there have been gui front-ends to package managers on linux for what, half a decade?

    18. Re:Apt by Pros_n_Cons · · Score: 1

      Well Debian has more no doubt about it, they've been at the apt game for years. But on fedora do yum list "*" |wc -l I had about 1,800 packages and as any fedora user knows about 10 new ones have been added each day since its release. So it _COULD_ catch up to debians 3,000 packages couldn't it? Its only been a few weeks, give it some time.

      --

      -- "of course thats just my opinion, I could be wrong." --Dennis Miller
    19. Re:Apt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's the stupidest fucking troll ever. At least put some effort into it. Kill yourself.

    20. Re:Apt by jd142 · · Score: 1

      Who types in commands in LInux? KDE button | Configuration | Mandrake Control Center. Then just click on the big button that says Update. It really is that simple.

      Now if they'd just put a little check box on there that says "Keep my computer up to date by checking and installing updates automatically" so that the average user could automate the whole process and never have to worry about it.

      As it is, I enter a cron job by hand.

    21. Re:Apt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1800? 3,000? The Linux camp needs to get off their asses, the ports system has nearly 10,000.

      --
      I'm not a troll, I'm a daemon!

    22. Re:Apt by JCholewa · · Score: 1

      > Who types in commands in LInux? KDE button |
      > Configuration | Mandrake Control Center. Then
      > just click on the big button that says Update.
      > It really is that simple.

      > Now if they'd just put a little check box on
      > there that says "Keep my computer up to date by
      > checking and installing updates automatically"
      > so that the average user could automate the
      > whole process and never have to worry about it.

      If it helps, "Configuration-->Packaging-->Mandrake Update Notifications" gives you the system tray applet that checks for updates once an hour. I don't think it auto installs, but only a psycho would enable that feature. I know that none of my (non-technical) friends would think of allowing such a feature active on their computers. They've learned at least that "letting the computer do stuff on its own" is really, really dangerous (especially since my closest friend is now inundated with secretly installed programs that pop up porn advertisements and now his MSN dialup shortcut no longer points to its associated program).

      --
      -JC

    23. Re:Apt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      5000 of those are variations of vi, emacs, and irc clients;-)

    24. Re:Apt by Unregistered · · Score: 1

      I don't think that Fedora is even going to have the same market share the RH had. When people have to leave RH they might consider other distros as well. Also, Debian and Fedora aren't rally competing anyway. They have very different foci. I do think that SuSE is gonna get real big.

    25. Re:Apt by gomoX · · Score: 1

      The parent doesnt have a clue (quoting debian.org):
      "Debian GNU/Linux provides more than a pure OS: it comes with more than 8710 packages"
      And that is just Debian GNU/Linux aka Woody, there are zillions of extra packages in sid + unnofficial apt sources.

      --
      My english is sow-sow. Sowhat?
    26. Re:Apt by Fancia · · Score: 1

      That's because you use x86. ;b I've come across the occasional package that doesn't work properly on PPC.

      --

      Bít, zabít, jen proto, ze su liska!
    27. Re:Apt by sg_oneill · · Score: 2, Informative


      Well Debian has more no doubt about it, they've been at the apt game for years. But on fedora do yum list "*" |wc -l I had about 1,800 packages and as any fedora user knows about 10 new ones have been added each day since its release. So it _COULD_ catch up to debians 3,000 packages couldn't it? Its only been a few weeks, give it some time.


      Eek. But thats the problem. Its not even how many damn packages there are. Its the fact that they all work.... together... Debian has a stable collection that plays well together thru time patience and paranoic adherence to process.

      However if fedora can pull that off, then thats stunning and I aplaud red hat for it. RPM-Hell sucks.

      --
      Excuse the Unicode crap in my posts. That's an apostrophe, and slashdot is busted.
    28. Re:Apt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not only that. I think we have a Lindows zealot throwing plugs in completely unrelated topics at out hands! beware.

    29. Re:Apt by BigJim.fr · · Score: 1
      > Done E: Couldn't find package GodLikePowers

      That's not really a problem because this APT has Super Cow Powers which are roughly equivalent functionnality to the GodLikePowers package. But maybe the apt package should mention 'Provides: godlikepowers'...

    30. Re:Apt by damiam · · Score: 1

      So it _COULD_ catch up to debians 3,000 packages couldn't it?p.Currently Debian unstable has more than 11000 packages. Fedora has a long way to go.

      --
      It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.
    31. Re:Apt by Jason+Earl · · Score: 1

      Exactly, it's the process that makes Debian work so well. It's thousands of packages and thousands of end users that are willing to test how those packages work together and report bugs.

      However, this doesn't necessarily mean that Fedora doesn't pose a threat to Debian. A community-based distribution with a powerful packaging manager (which implies automatic dependency checking), and the help of full-time paid engineers at Red Hat could be very cool.

    32. Re:Apt by brsmith4 · · Score: 1

      Well, I've stuck with redhat 9. I have majorly upgraded it though. I have tied into the fedora repositories and updated virtually all my packages and have not run into any problems and very very few bugs.

      If anyone is running redhat 9, check out my list of repositories. I took out the fedora ones because the "Matt Repository" has most of the gnome packages that I updated including some fancy menu shadow patches. I don't see what everyone is bitching about when it comes to fedora. Its the same thing as redhat was, infact, all of the rpms are compatible with redhat 9, providing an easy upgrade route.

      Repositories:

      # freshrpms... of course, we all have that
      rpm http://ayo.freshrpms.net redhat/9/i386 os updates freshrpms
      # the "Matt Repository". Great patched gnome rpms. Very up to date and bleeding edge.
      rpm http://people.ecsc.co.uk/~matt/downloads/apt redhat-9-i386 gnome extras depends
      # hmmm.. I dont remember
      rpm http://rpms.xcyb.org/redhat/9 i686 stable bleeding
      # anyone who knows linux audio knows this, Planet CCRMA at stanford
      rpm http://www-ccrma.stanford.edu/planetccrma/apt redhat/9/en/i386 os updates
      rpm http://www-ccrma.stanford.edu/planetccrma/apt redhat/all/en/i386 planetccrma
      rpm http://www-ccrma.stanford.edu/planetccrma/apt redhat/9/en/i386 planetcore
      rpm http://www-ccrma.stanford.edu/planetccrma/apt redhat/9/en/i386 planetccrma

      Repositories listed total 2049 packages. Now, how many of debians 3,000 packages are you REALLY going to use? I have everything I need out of these.

    33. Re:Apt by Drantin · · Score: 1

      I defy you to install the freenet-unstable package (in the unstable apt-source), unless it has been fixed in the past two months (it was reported as broken almost a year ago...) You will find that there is an endless loop in the debconf configuration...

      --
      Actio personalis moritur cum persona. (Dead men don't sue)
    34. Re:Apt by ninkendo84 · · Score: 1

      Sid acutally has something of the likes of 13,000 packages in it's main repo. And most debian end-users use sid anyway (who the hell wants 2 year old software?)

      What I'm looking forward to in fedora is the fact that many OSS developers package their software as RPM, and hardly any make any .debs. This task is usually left up to debian's package maintainers, who do most of the work with making packages that adhere to their standards. But that's a lot of strain and effor on their parts.

      With more developer support, fedora has a greater capability of growing and expanding past what debian is currently doing, which is what will give debian a run for it's money.

      3,000 packages? Where's a cluebat when you need one?

      --

      $ make love
      make: don't know how to make love. Stop
    35. Re:Apt by ldspartan · · Score: 1

      Yes! I've had that problem.

      But its in unstable. And it has unstable in its name. And it hasn't been maintaned even remotely recently.

      While its suprising when you try to install a package and something goes horribly wrong, its still called "unstable" for a reason.

      --
      lds

    36. Re:Apt by sn0wman3030 · · Score: 1

      Hey, at least Red Hat has a built in packaging system now. I ran Red Hat 7 back when it was the shit to have, but I was always frustrated that there was no integrated packaging system. I changed over to gentoo about 2 years ago, and I have always had trouble getting my Wind0ze buddys to make the switch to linux, because I like to show them my setup, and they tend to like it, especially because of the portage packaging sytem. When I give them Red Hat CD's, and they install it on their system at home, however, I get basic questions like "So, how exactly do i update/install software." The problem is, gentoo and debian are too hard for most users to run/maintain, but Red Hat kinda sucks.

      With Fedora, however, the packaging system is coherent and comprehensive (That "Red Hat Network" system just didn't cut it before). A transition to apt is definatly a step in the right direction for the Red Hat desktop. Fedora is brand new though, so of course it still has it's quirks. With a little bit of time, I think that Fedora can become a solid desktop distribution.

      --
      Life is offtopic.
    37. Re:Apt by GreyWolf3000 · · Score: 1
      I don't like Lindows.

      Synaptic is cool, but it needs to be there by default as the accepted way that a new user installs packages on a distribution.

      --
      Slashdot: Where people pretend to be twice as smart as they really are by behaving like children.
    38. Re:Apt by Drantin · · Score: 1

      But here's the thing: Why should I be forced to use the unstable source for packages that are *only* 8 months old?

      --
      Actio personalis moritur cum persona. (Dead men don't sue)
    39. Re:Apt by NateTech · · Score: 1

      You're not.

      First, build a .deb for yourself and quit whining.

      Second, become a maintainer and upload it.

      Sheesh... why is it that everyone thinks someone ELSE should do everything for them?

      Don't like Debian? Fix it. There is NOTHING stopping you or anyone else. The sooner it's REALLY stable the sooner it gets labeled so.

      Welcome to software Freedom... enjoy.

      --
      +++OK ATH
    40. Re:Apt by NateTech · · Score: 1

      When's everyone going to figure out "linux is linux"? Packages, schmackages. Debian's unstable release has over 11,000 "packages". Who cares? I use it and it's nice on a completely unstable desktop machine -- but for production and doing real work for the boss? Never. Stable with backports if necessary is the way to go.

      What counts in ANY Linux/Unix deployment for BUSINESS is a well-designed, well-engineered solution to whatever problem you're working on.

      Debian, Fedora, Linux from Scratch, any of those can be used to build such a thing.

      With all other things being equal, why not go with the "product" that has history, tons of documentation, and a good track record of quality instead of the unknown.

      No good engineer picks the unknown over the known entity unless they're in a design/creation/test phase.

      --
      +++OK ATH
    41. Re:Apt by jd142 · · Score: 1

      I don't think it auto installs, but only a psycho would enable that feature.

      It depends on whether or not you trust the source. Since I can pick which mirror I want to use for updates with Mandrake, I pick a mirror I trust.

      Thanks for the heads up on this feature though. I looked for it with the rest of the software update utilities in the Control Center; my mistake.

    42. Re:Apt by jester42 · · Score: 1
      • I know that on Debian I could type "apt-get install GodLikePowers" and in seconds I'd have god like powers
      Damn there's gotta be something wrong with my sources.list because on my debian system it also says:
      E: Couldn't find package GodLikePowers
  4. My Bet Is On 2006 by dalutong · · Score: 4, Informative

    Partly because it will be my 10 year anniversary of using GNU/Linux... but practically, too.

    I can't really put my finger on just why that year sticks out, but it does. I suspect that it will take a year+ for 2.6 to mature/be accepted to the point where most major distros are shipping it and most howtos are being written for it. I also suspect that both GNOME and KDE will reach another major version by 2006 (haven't checked their road maps... just hoping.) I also hope that device support will continue to grow as it has, configuration tools will mature more, and the "your mama" test will be more easily passed. I doubt all that will happen in the next twelve months.

    As for what I think COULD happen? I think a major U.S. gov't agency could start putting GNU/Linux into major use. I think we will see a lot more adoption abroad. Maybe even a first world national government promoting it in some way. I understand GNU/Linux desktop usage will top Mac desktop usage (was a /. article on that before.. that or linuxworld.com)...

    Now I'm just rambling. This made very little sense. sorry. It is 2:30 AM EST... I'm going to bed.

    --

    What comes first, finding a teacher or becoming a student?
    1. Re:My Bet Is On 2006 by Billly+Gates · · Score: 5, Insightful
      I personally think it will never happen. Remember the past stories about the NSA using and giving away software for linux?

      Well Microsoft threw a fit and is one of the biggest lobbiests. They pressured dozens of senators with the phrase "Lost jobs" and "Communist" and they wrote legislation to ban code being release to the GPL and Linux at the NSA. Now are tax dollars are used to buy copies of Windows to help Microsoft.

      Gotta love corporate influence.

      Other governments its a different story because they are not all whores like ours.

    2. Re:My Bet Is On 2006 by RoLi · · Score: 1

      Actually KDE 3.2 is coming out early next year (2004).

    3. Re:My Bet Is On 2006 by Rimbo · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Other governments its a different story because they are not all whores like ours.


      I'm afraid that other countries' reluctance to use Microsoft has very little to do with being whores.

      I mean, put yourself in their shoes. You can use a foreign OS that you can't see the insides of to connect to the internet made in a country that is a superpower and wants to stay that way. Or, you can pick Linux, which may be made partially in the USA but at least you can look on the insides, modify it, and have your geeks keep an eye for any trojans.

      Deciding not to use Windows has little to do with whether or not they're whores and everything to do with nationalism and national security.

      In fact if anything, other countries are just whores to their own businesses instead of USA's businesses. Which makes sense, obviously.

      Generally corporate interference with and influence on government increases -- out of necessity -- the closer a country is to Socialism. This should be obvious: In a Socialist system, influencing the government is the ONLY way for a business to be successful! For that reason, the US government isn't the big whore it's made out to be compared to the rest of the world.
    4. Re:My Bet Is On 2006 by binary+paladin · · Score: 1

      Actually I find that the US is a bigger whore in that it pretends that it isn't Socialist. What was a Constitutional Republic is gone... been gone for some time but since 9/11 it's bend burned, reburied and had a bunch of extra nails shot into the coffin. However, you're right about everything else. It's not a matter of other countries lacking whorishness, it's a matter of Microsoft being a US company.

    5. Re:My Bet Is On 2006 by GreyWolf3000 · · Score: 3, Insightful
      What's really disturbing is that we've escalated our outpouring of "patriotism." We've made patriotism the ritualistic celebration of a flag, and not what it stands for.

      Breaks out tinfoil hat.

      No sooner did the towers fall than China had us flags and bumber stickers shipping in at alarmingly sudden rates...

      Patriotism for anyone in the free world should be the celebration of liberty, the glorification of the decision to exersize that liberty for the benefit of humanity, and the denouncement of taking advantage of said liberty.

      --
      Slashdot: Where people pretend to be twice as smart as they really are by behaving like children.
    6. Re:My Bet Is On 2006 by e.colli · · Score: 0

      politician=whore? I'm in Brasil, the new government from PT with socialist roots is looking to linux with sympathy, partially because its comunist appeal. But Microsoft's lobby is very strong here too. When they start to drop theirs trucks of money in deputies and senators we will see the results.... My hope is a lot of universities that are using linux in CS courses and desktops in general creating a new generation of influencing people. There is too a leak signal in business with acceptance of Open Office.

    7. Re:My Bet Is On 2006 by binary+paladin · · Score: 1

      That is one of the most pathetic and sad images that's ever been burned into my little brain. China making all those...

      That's just... that's awful.

      Well... What do you do? I run for office, make a lot of noise, show up in the local papers and still get overshadowed by local high school football scores. No one cares about freedom. At least, not most people.

      But things will take their natural flow and there will be some sort of passive or violent revolt when things get REALLY bad. For a time there will be prosperity but that will lead right back to where we are now. Repeat process for eternity.

    8. Re:My Bet Is On 2006 by hacker · · Score: 1
      "I personally think it will never happen. Remember the past stories about the NSA using and giving away software for linux?"

      You mean exactly like Security-Enhanced Linux, which is sitting right at nsa.gov, and given away completely free?

      Ok, what else?

    9. Re:My Bet Is On 2006 by Spoing · · Score: 1
      I personally think it will never happen. Remember the past stories about the NSA using and giving away software for linux?

      Yes, and a quick search of "nsa linux" shows this, so I'm not sure how effective that anti-GPL and anti-Linux lobbying campaign was.

      --
      A firewall can not protect you from yourself. Turn off what you do not need. Do not use the firewall to do your work.
    10. Re:My Bet Is On 2006 by Celvin · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I think we will see a lot more adoption abroad.

      I assume you mean abroad as in not US. The comparison under is not quite fair, favors small countries and is in no way accurate, but who cares... My point is, Linux is widely adopted outside the US.

      From counter.li.org:

      USA: 94.90 users/million
      Some states:
      New York: 78.35 users/million
      Texas: 90.95 users/million
      California: 101.52 users/million
      Arizona: 111.53 users/million
      Maryland: 117.78 users/million
      Pensylvania: 166.60 users/million

      Some other countries:
      Germany: 135.25 users/million
      Spain: 144.31 users/million
      Poland: 183.89 users/million
      Holand: 215.54 users/million
      Norway: 445.37 users/million
      Estonia: 511.26 users/million
      Finland: 610.85 users/million

      My teacher was right, statistics can be fun, in a dry, inacurate sort of way... :)

      --
      -- If ignorance is bliss, why aren't there more happy people?
    11. Re:My Bet Is On 2006 by Firehawke · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, this country has become a country of hypocrites-- we preach freedom and justice, then murder in cold blood the first person who even remotely LOOKS like a foreigner. I was in Arizona in 2001, and we had the first murder case of a man originally from India simply because he "looked like an Arabian".

      Then, on top of this, any criticism of the government is suddenly "unpatriotic"..

      I don't think Linux will ever grab a significant chunk of the desktop market, so long as the present corporate mindset rules-- this mindset has a relatively high chance of spreading to Europe through patents and intellectual property "fixes"..

    12. Re:My Bet Is On 2006 by mr.+marbles · · Score: 1

      Well Microsoft threw a fit and is one of the biggest lobbiests. They pressured dozens of senators with the phrase "Lost jobs" and "Communist" and they wrote legislation to ban code being release to the GPL and Linux at the NSA. Now are tax dollars are used to buy copies of Windows to help Microsoft.

      I love how everyone who lives outside the political circle, can specualate about the internal scandals happening. I guess if the government deals inside closed doors then they should be the blame for everyone's problems.

    13. Re:My Bet Is On 2006 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Should have stuck around because that is complete bullshit. A nation of hypocrits would not have rallied together. There was a rally at ASU two or three days after the shooting of the Indian with thousands of people from all the ethnicities that make the Phoenix area great. There were rallies all over the valley, get your head out of your ass, there are always biggots and it has nothing to do with which country they reside.
      Free speech has taken a terrible toll but that was only temporary as people eventually lose patience listening to bullshit all day

    14. Re:My Bet Is On 2006 by wfrp01 · · Score: 1

      the "your mama" test will be more easily passed

      I don't think insults will promote adoption. ;)

      But seriously, I think one mistake is presume that the Linux that the technically challenged will use must resemble a typical PC/Mac desktop. My wife uses Linux, but all she cares about is email and browsing the web. Cheap internet appliances that perform such tasks could be built using today's software.

      --

      --Lawrence Lessig for Congress!
    15. Re:My Bet Is On 2006 by GreyWolf3000 · · Score: 1
      I vote, and participate in open discussion. I would argue that open discussion is possibily the most important thing we can do.

      Electronic voting will may make me never really trust going into office. sadly enough.

      --
      Slashdot: Where people pretend to be twice as smart as they really are by behaving like children.
    16. Re:My Bet Is On 2006 by binary+paladin · · Score: 1

      It's important.

      Heh. Given the paperless Sequoia electronic voting machines, do you trust who's going into office now?

    17. Re:My Bet Is On 2006 by d00ber · · Score: 1

      I thought NSA was still involved in the form of SELinux. They seem to be patching against 2.6 as of October.

    18. Re:My Bet Is On 2006 by John+Hasler · · Score: 1

      > They pressured dozens of senators with the
      > phrase "Lost jobs" and "Communist" and they
      > wrote legislation to ban code being release to
      > the GPL and Linux at the NSA.

      Bullshit.
      From http://www.nsa.gov/selinux/news.html :

      1 October 2003
      An updated public release of SELinux was made today.

      --
      Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
  5. US Gov't on Linux by CompMD · · Score: 5, Insightful
    The NSA has their own spiffy modified linux kernel which is actually pretty nice. I haven't had any problems with it. Interesting how they won't say if they actually use it internally or not. With budgets the way they are I don't doubt that there will be some significant moves toward putting linux on the desktop of government officials in the near future. In fact, I bet there are lots of folks in the FBI computer crimes division that would be pretty happy to see that happen.

    1. Re:US Gov't on Linux by Soko · · Score: 5, Funny

      A distro from the NSA? Whoa.

      That just has to be called TinfoilHat Linux.

      Soko

      --
      "Depression is merely anger without enthusiasm." - Anonymous
    2. Re:US Gov't on Linux by t0ny · · Score: 1
      I cant see the NSA giving information on ANYTHING they do internally; thats just good security.

      I was reading something about them wanting to have completely separate OS's running in multiple instances (with no shared memory addresses) and separate networks, but on one machine. Never heard anything beyone the statement of what they were developing, however. It would be pretty interesting to see.

      --

      Manipulate the moderator system! Mod someone as "overrated" today.

    3. Re:US Gov't on Linux by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A distro from the NSA? Whoa.
      That just has to be called TinfoilHat Linux.
      :::laugh:::::

      Actually, it's called SELinux (Security Enhanced Linux) and it's major enhancement, as I understand it, was mandatory ACLs (Access Control Lists) for everything in the kernel. And it's as open-source as any other version of the Linux kernel :)

    4. Re:US Gov't on Linux by Billly+Gates · · Score: 5, Funny

      I thought Microsoft banned it

    5. Re:US Gov't on Linux by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's common knowledge that having a diversified network is better security by virtue that you're not all going to get taken out in the same attack. That the NSA would want a variety of operating systems on a variety of networks on a variety of hardware is not surprising at all.

      I was at a talk with Eugene Spafford and he joked that there would be incredibly complex timing attacks against big iron mainframes but when the hackers finally got in they'd start typing DOS commands. Or if you were running Mac OS 9 or earlier you couldn't run commands at all because it has no command line.

      If you've got 1,000 different setups in your organization that's just another 999 your attacker is going to need to know to take you out. Realistically he can probably get away with less, but it will still be a lot harder than sending the linux SQL worm or MSBlast and taking the whole damn thing out.

      Also the NSA branded Linux kernel isn't really something they maintain (officially). It's more an exercise for some dudes in the NSA to test the security of Linux and patch a few things while they're in there. For your information exploits were found immediately after they published whatever they did. Not really found, but just still not fixed. Such as....

      http://www.nsa.gov/selinux/list-archive/0419.htm l

    6. Re:US Gov't on Linux by t0ny · · Score: 1
      The problem they wanted to fix (in what I read, not in your post) was the real-world problem of people needed two or three computers at their desk to do their work. Obviously, it magnifies the hardware you need to buy, but its also a space issue and an efficiency issue.

      I dont know if youve worked with multiple computers at the same time, but it does get kind of annoying, especially if you need to copy info from one to another. Something as simple as a cut and paste would magnify how fast you can work.

      So, they were looking for something which would still segregate the networks and operating system resources, but allow a person to have one computer/keyboard/mouse. Hmmm, I wonder if they have people use KVMs?

      --

      Manipulate the moderator system! Mod someone as "overrated" today.

    7. Re:US Gov't on Linux by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not Security Enhanced eXtended Linux then?

    8. Re:US Gov't on Linux by mickwd · · Score: 4, Funny

      ...or Feds-ora.

    9. Re:US Gov't on Linux by doodleboy · · Score: 2, Informative

      Actually, there already is a Tinfoil Hat linux. It's a bootable single-floppy distro for gpg-signing and/or wiping files.

      The NSA's version is called SE-Linux, for Security Enhanced Linux. It has a "strong, flexible mandatory access control architecture incorporated into the major subsystems of the kernel. The system provides a mechanism to enforce the separation of information based on confidentiality and integrity requirements. This allows threats of tampering and bypassing of application security mechanisms to be addressed and enables the confinement of damage that can be caused by malicious or flawed applications." Or some such.

      If you really need security and don't think running Bastille-linux is going to be enough, then ACLs a la SE-Linux might be the way to go. I suppose no OS is truly secure, but it's hard to imagine even talented crackers getting very far against it.

    10. Re:US Gov't on Linux by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you're working with multiple computers, you can open up a terminal and ssh to the other ones. Then you cat cat > file to copy something to it, and then open that file to paste; it's not quite as quick as a normal copy/paste, but it's pretty close.

    11. Re:US Gov't on Linux by t0ny · · Score: 1

      no, you cant- remember, they need to use segregated networks, and they are using completely separate computers as well. People literally have two or three computers at their desks.

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      Manipulate the moderator system! Mod someone as "overrated" today.

  6. What will drive Linux adoption by mhesseltine · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's not about having "good enough" software. It's about having feature-for-feature replacements that are open and secure. It isn't enough that sendmail, procmail, spamassassin, ical, etc. can be put together to implement most of the MS Exchange features; it's going to be the drop-in replacement that drives adoption.

    Once people are used to using the drop-in replacements, they will be able to migrate away from closed and proprietary solutions. Until the drop-ins are available, Linux will not make huge inroads. (all IMHO, of course)

    --
    Overrated / Underrated : Moderation :: Anonymous Coward : Posting
    1. Re:What will drive Linux adoption by GreyWolf3000 · · Score: 1
      I have to disagree with you on that.

      Linux is already making huge inroads, and the more businesses and government agencies that switch, the more others out there will begin to budge.

      Most businesses haven't "tipped" yet because Linux is still in the "maven" stage of adoption, meaning that only businesses actively interested in this new OSS phenomenon are even experimented with it yet. I don't think the reason most companies haven't switched yet is because they need a step-by-step process; I think the reason is because to them, OSS hasn't yet "proven" itself.

      --
      Slashdot: Where people pretend to be twice as smart as they really are by behaving like children.
    2. Re:What will drive Linux adoption by spitzak · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No. There seems to be this big delusion that somehow OpenSource has to rewrite virtually every commercial application.

      Maybe commercial companies will port to Linux!! Oh no, you say, isn't that illegal by RMS's communist manifesto? Sorry to break your fantasy, but it is legal, only Microsoft wants you to believe otherwise.

      Take a look at the special effects industry and you will see that there is lots of commercial, closed-source, for-profit software being written for Linux.

      PS: What Linux really needs is to be pre-installed on machines in a store. However it appears that Microsoft is still disallowing dual-boot machines to be sold.

    3. Re:What will drive Linux adoption by morganjharvey · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Taking your comment one step further...

      Multimedia might also be another roadblock. And by multimedia I am including games and the like. Joe just wants to use the computer, and most likely his computer usage consists of about %90 games and web browsing. Two good examples are RealMedia and Flash. I realise that there are solutions to both of these, but the quality is nothing compared to what is available for Mac or Windows.

      Also, there are still some hardware issues to work out. Digital cameras, printers, scanners, and others are still not quite where they should be. Yes, some distributions have made some of these simple to set up, but what you and I see as "simple" scares the pants off of the non-techie -- especially when a CLI is involved -- who probably doesn't know that they should configure their XFree86 server to run at x Hz instead of y Hz. The fact that my particular digital camera requires me to download and compile gphoto from cvs to use it under linux pretty much means that no noob would have any luck with this particular camera. Here's another chance to plead with hardware manufacturers for open drivers...

      One last issue, and probably the most disturbingly humorous to me, is the public's view on Linux, the BSD's, etc.: I've talked to quite a few people (*cough*myfamily*cough*) who have honestly believed that the open os's were "illegal" tools meant to be used by "hackers" to "hack into" your "network." This here is something that could be solved simply with a little more advertising and the like, but advertising in mainstream channels costs money, and I'm pretty sure that the FSF isn't ready to shell out for a public awareness campaign to let people know that this stuff isn't just for the hardcore techie (well, mostly... see above)

      The good thing is is that these are all fixable and known problems, so hopefully they'll change soon.

      Just my two cents worth...
      -mo

    4. Re:What will drive Linux adoption by screenrc · · Score: 2, Funny

      Intresting. But, since when did
      the Microsoft operating systems proved themselves?
      Very many of you, have not yet forgotten
      the Blue Screen of Death. It is still all over
      the place, and Windows has never proved it itself;
      and yet, Windows has been widely adapted.

    5. Re:What will drive Linux adoption by screenrc · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      I understand that linux distributors wish
      for a wide Linux adaption. But what do *we*
      gain out of it? The arrival of more morons
      to the mailing lists? No thanks.

    6. Re:What will drive Linux adoption by Enucite · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Two good examples are RealMedia and Flash. I realise that there are solutions to both of these, but the quality is nothing compared to what is available for Mac or Windows.

      Really? My experiences don't agree with your observations.

      I haven't had any problems with Flash, it's just as annoying as the Windows version when displaying ads, lets me play the little flash games, navigate all the flash sites, and see all the flashtastic content on the web.

      As for RealMedia, their new Helix Player has been working great for me. So good that I actually install it on all my Linux desktops, unlike RealOne for Windows which I never touch.

    7. Re:What will drive Linux adoption by darnok · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Actually, I'd like to think 2004 might be the year Linux gets a feature-for-feature equivalent to MS Exchange, that supports MS Outlook, Evolution and a few other key clients.

      When such a solution appears, that will mark a major milestone for Linux in potentially replacing Windows in many organisations.

    8. Re:What will drive Linux adoption by morganjharvey · · Score: 1

      I've never seen the Helix Player. I'd given up on running real under linux a while ago. By looking at the build instructions it seems that it might even work on my computer (you see, I'm running linux on a powermac...). I'll have to give it a go, thanks for pointing it out. :)

      But don't forget about the "moms" out there who won't want to take the time to learn how to seek software like this. Perhaps a simple distribution (there might be onw) where there are fewer things geared towards the techie, like DDD, apache, mysql, etc., and more things like media players and "home applications" -- is this whaat lindows is/was trying to do? -- because, after all, I have a really hard time seeing anyone in my family launching a debugger, let alone taking the time to customise their installation.

      Random ranting, feel free to ignore me. :)

    9. Re:What will drive Linux adoption by BrokenHalo · · Score: 3, Insightful
      The arrival of more morons to the mailing lists? No thanks.

      That's not exactly an attitude that's going to pursuade the world that Linux is a viable alternative.

      OK, none of us have time to be full-time babysitters, but it doesn't hurt to give the newbie a bit of friendly help when it's required, and it goes a long way towards the user feeling good about it at a time when getting anything to work can be frustrating.

      I can still remember the frustration 9 years ago when I was struggling to get an X server running on my hardware, and scrolling through usenet responses from asshat geeks who couldn't be bothered being polite. Fortunately there was enough positive response to make me want to persevere.

    10. Re:What will drive Linux adoption by ajs318 · · Score: 1

      Learn your history and your geography, and realise that your ISP, your workplace's ISP, your mother's ISP and if your dog had an ISP then probably your dog's ISP as well, already use the open-source product sendmail to send you your mail. Exchange Server is used internally in only a few crappy corporations who have already forgotten about the product they sell / service they provide, let alone the poor sods who have to work there; they think only about the money they are making, and will soon be going bust.

      Drop-in replacements? Don't make me laugh. Where can you get an electric light bulb from that fits in a candle holder? Sometimes you have to break your compatibilities with the past, and break them good and hard.

      --
      Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
    11. Re:What will drive Linux adoption by RoLi · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Actually if you look at all the "new" markets that were irrelevant or didn't exist at all 10 years ago, Linux dominates them all:

      • Webservers (irrelevant in 1993)
      • Clusters (also irrelevant and not widely used in 1993)
      • Embedded systems operating systems (only recently the bulk of embedded systems has enough power to run a full blown OS)

      That's why Microsoft is so afraid. All new stuff is going the Linux-route while Microsoft is basically stuck without any new revenue sources.

      But on established stuff, you are right, drop-in replacements are very successful, probably the best example is Samba which may be already used more often than Windows files servers...

    12. Re:What will drive Linux adoption by einhverfr · · Score: 1

      It's not about having "good enough" software. It's about having feature-for-feature replacements that are open and secure. It isn't enough that sendmail, procmail, spamassassin, ical, etc. can be put together to implement most of the MS Exchange features; it's going to be the drop-in replacement that drives adoption.

      Only half true. There are two questions for a business:
      1: What does it cost to put together/run such a system? If the answer is more than MS Exchange, then we can't compete.

      2: Businesses want to run *supported* commercial products. This means that if the set of applications you mention do not have a single point of contact for support, we can't compete.

      UNIX has survived (and Linux is GROWING) by embodying the philosophy that many small well-tested pieces loosely connected together is more agile, versatile, and stable than large monolithic applications.

      So, in your example, if I offer support for all these packages, offer a sample installation script for each of them, etc. then there is no reason that it can't compete.

      --

      LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
    13. Re:What will drive Linux adoption by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is no such delusion. It is the OSS/FS movement, which desires software being available with its source. Having companies porting their software to Linux and delivering it in binary-only form durely makes adoption easier -I agree. The issue is, though, that OSS/FS movement wants access to teh source. They don't want to stick with something with no source available (for all known reasons).

    14. Re:What will drive Linux adoption by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So Send out a copy of Knoppix with every computer sold!

    15. Re:What will drive Linux adoption by einhverfr · · Score: 1

      I understand that linux distributors wish
      for a wide Linux adaption. But what do *we*
      gain out of it? The arrival of more morons
      to the mailing lists? No thanks.


      There is a BIG difference between a moron and a newbie. And quite frankly, I predict that the real morons will simply not use the mailing lists. Also, morons come in all technical levels too, so I don't think that the percentage of morons will be very much affected ;-)

      Here is an example:

      A newbie who is scared of computers (and Linux) may ask questions poorly on mailing lists. The best thing we can do is prepare a document which states how best to ask questions on mailing lists and forward them a link ;).

      OTOH, a moron would be the person who writes to the mailing list saying "My datacenter is down-- 2 disks in the RAID-5 array crashed. I didn't think a backup was necessary, so I don't have one, and my job is on the line. Help me please!"

      My point is that widespread adoption is unquestionably a GOOD THING for everybody, and with any luck, it will *lighten* the tech support load on individual list members.

      One more point-- The true newbies with little or no Windows experience I have met have become power users quickly on Linux, and there is a much lower barrier to becoming a technically adept user on Linux than Windows. (By technically adept, I mean being able to find help when you need it, configure whatever you want, and diagnose/repair problems.) There is also a lower barrier to entry at becoming a programmer. Hence more Linux users == more hobbyist programmers.

      In the end, I am all for widespread adoption because with it will likely come more computer literacy. This is because Linux is FAR more transparent when things go wrong than Windows is. I am not saying that there are not strange problems that are hard or unintuitive to diagnose (esp. regarding X, or append-only log files :P) but in general, the error messages are better, and the whole system more intuitive (Windows makes you think it is intuitive until you try to get technical with it ;)).

      --

      LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
    16. Re:What will drive Linux adoption by pix · · Score: 1

      Linux already has this - admittedly it's not open source or free. Try Lotus Domino 6.5 with Domino Web Access for Linux. Not a Windows box in site...

    17. Re:What will drive Linux adoption by Spoing · · Score: 1
      It's about having feature-for-feature replacements that are open and secure.

      I used to think that too. I've had a rude awakening over the past couple years. The issue that defines the difference between excitement and apathy for mid-to-upper management? It's the same one that your mother used when picking out drapes or a new dress;

      It's all about "pretty".

      Well, pretty vs. the unspoken alternative "ugly". A close second is 'can this give me bragging rights about using "the best" most professionally accepted choice?'. Think binary; it's either yes or no, with no middle ground. Managers make decisions or they are ineffective.

      It's not what we want or even see is necessary...it's what management (in a 15 minute or shorter meeting) can be convinced of. In that time, they can spot UGLY a mile away, though ugly is often confused with "unfamiliar". Keep in mind that they see "pretty" as "polished and complete" so anything that isn't pretty is not ready...and bosses don't want to mess with something that isn't ready to go. Case in point, Gnome gets quite a bit of corporate backing...because it is pretty (polished consistant from desktop to desktop and app to app) while KDE looks like an errector set. This isn't a flame, the truth is much more complex, though if you have 30 seconds to show someone both...Gnome looks more pretty.

      15 - or 5 - minutes of rational talk about pros and cons will not change *anyone's mind*. Habbits and superficial issues will swamp all concerns. Even what is pretty or ugly will change from person to person, but typically not by much.

      If you want people to start using OSS, use it yourself and deploy it everywhere. Are you using it for your desktop? I am. Are you using it for corporate servers? I am; ugly Bugzilla, and pretty DCL. Bugzilla serves a necessary function of a project, so it actually gets used more. I've also made a point that there is a migration path to pretty in the form of Scarab. In the meantime, I've modified Bugzilla to make it a little more pretty.

      Make sure it looks normal and nice; that it looks pretty and isn't awkward. Costs less is a motivator, though pretty really does matter most. The cost and savings -- both up front savings and in the lower costs for maintenance and lost data -- are the mass of the avalanche, not the pebbles that get it moving.

      --
      A firewall can not protect you from yourself. Turn off what you do not need. Do not use the firewall to do your work.
    18. Re:What will drive Linux adoption by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I also resent this charcterization of all newbies as morons. After all, didn't we all start as newbies once? Or did full knowledge of Linux spring full-blown into your head?

      However, there are a lot of morons out there. I also do hardware design and subscribe to a few hardware forums. The posts that always crack me up (and get virually no replies from anyone) are the ones that say "I need a circuit and firmware to do [whatever]. Please send me schematics and source code. Hurry, I have a deadline!" They effectively want me to do their job for them! And it sounds like it is a job they don't deserve.

      I notice quite a bit of this in the Linux forums, also. Those that do invest some effort into finding out what the problem is and are just honestly stuck about where to go next usually get some kind of civil answer. Those that post something to the effect of "It doesn't work, please fix this for me" get no answer or a flame, which I think is well-deserved. They are the true morons!

      With a greater acceptance of Linux among a larger audience, the Linux community is almost certain to suffer from a greater number of morons. It's a fact of life. We do need to weed out the morons, however, and encourage those newbies who are willing to work at solutions on their own. Each newbie that does have the right mind-set to track down and correct problems is a future contributor to Linux. With more contributors, Linux can solve more probelms and branch out into areas that haven't even been thought of yet. That's what *you* (the grandfather of this post) gain from it!

      Just my .02 worth...

    19. Re:What will drive Linux adoption by saintlupus · · Score: 1

      I haven't had any problems with Flash [macromedia.com], it's just as annoying as the Windows version when displaying ads, lets me play the little flash games, navigate all the flash sites, and see all the flashtastic content on the web.

      The thing that bugs me about Flash on Linux is that there is no non-x86 plugin for it. That means that people like me, who run Linux on a PowerBook, or a friend of mine who runs it on his Alpha, can't access some web content.

      I'm not exactly heartbroken, since as you pointed out Flash is often more of a curse than anything. But it is a consideration that a lot of people don't think about.

      --saint

    20. Re:What will drive Linux adoption by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That was already done a few years ago and it made ZERO difference in the uptake of Linux in organizations. Say hello the product everyone has been asking for but nobody uses. Samsung Contact.

      The ONLY thing that is going to get linux anywhere is 3rd commercial apps. Without Abode, Intuit, Macromedia, and *shock* Microsoft, Linux is never going to amount to anything on the desktop. Trust me on this one. I've been using Linux since '95 and every year I kept saying Linux just needs X product and then its going to take off! No matter how far along XFree, KDE, Gnome etc get, they won't mean anything without 3rd commercial apps.

      Think I'm wrong and that Linux being easy to use and polished is what's holding it back? One Word. BeOS.

    21. Re:What will drive Linux adoption by Enucite · · Score: 1

      Good luck with it, glad I could point you in the right direction. :)

      As for "moms", yes, Linux is not ready for everyone. In fact, I think it's not ready for anyone who has to maintain their own computer. There's no way I'd expect most people to be able to install Helix or Flash in Linux (except on something like Debian or Gentoo where it's just a matter of apt-get/emerge).

      It is getting better, but I think it'll be at least another year before the neccessary steps have been taken to allow the average user to easily maintain their desktop.

      I like random ranting too. :)

    22. Re:What will drive Linux adoption by darnok · · Score: 1

      I should have said "Linux needs a FOSS equivalent of MS Exchange"...

      Samsung Contact, while it exists, isn't FOSS. It takes a brave person in these times of cutbacks to commit money to buy an "MS Exchange equivalent"; however, that same person could possibly run a skunkworks project testing a FOSS Exchange-equivalent by putting his/her team's internal stuff on it for a while to see how it goes.

      I sort of agree with you when it comes to 3rd party commercial apps. I think some people need them to justify the credibility of Linux on that platform, but I don't think they're required in infrastructure/backoffice systems. These systems (e.g. file/print servers, mail servers, Web servers, proxy servers, database servers, ...) are all about reliability and interoperability, and that's where FOSS really shines. The big glaring hole here is a MS Exchange equivalent; FOSS covers pretty much every other infrastructure requirement today, and the solutions are every bit as good as those from any commercial vendor.

    23. Re:What will drive Linux adoption by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Linux already has this - admittedly it's not open source or free. Try Lotus Domino 6.5

      Alright, admit it... you've never used Outlook connected to an Exchange server, have you? Lotus Domino may have nice app development support or whatever, but it is not even in the same ballpark with Outlook/Exchange for usability.

      Domino is a distributed database program that kinda supports email and collaboration as an afterthought. Exchange is an email and collaboration system and makes no false pretention about being a multifunction database.

  7. I think... by LnxAddct · · Score: 5, Funny

    I think that there will be at least three computers in my house with Linux installed on them... Oh wait...
    Depending on how you define "in my house", this has already occurred.

    1. Re:I think... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      so if I defined "in my house" as within your walls, would I be correct in saying that you like linux?

    2. Re:I think... by mbrewthx · · Score: 1

      3 PCs already with Linux on them. My LAptop Running SUSE 8.0 MY Other PC running SUSE 8.0 MY HP netserver Running Red HAT 9.0 ANd it will be 4 when my daughter gets her new PC, She'll have a windows and a LINUX machine. They all play very nice with the windows PCs. Yes I think '04 will be the year of LINUX for us..

      --
      __________ Leave me alone I'm compiling a RPG II program on my S/36...Thanks to metamucil I'm a Regular Meta Moderator
    3. Re:I think... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your 4 linux machines are nothing compared to Pixar/Dreamcasts hundreds.

      And Pixar/Dreamcast are nothing compared to the hundreds of thousands of windows machines.

      Marketshare is still at 5%. Don't get ahead of yourself.

    4. Re:I think... by LnxAddct · · Score: 1

      Not to be picky but I think you meant Dreamworks. And If I had the money, I'd have the boxen. As far as Microsoft goes, you need to read the three little pigs. I can build all the hay houses that I want, but in the end its gonna be that brick house that stands.

    5. Re:I think... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think that you will have sex... Oh wait...
      Depending on how you define "sex", this will never occur

    6. Re:I think... by mshiltonj · · Score: 1

      When Lindows releases it Nvu package (a WYSIWYG html editor/site management too based on Mozilla Composer, meant to replace FrontPage or Dreamweaver) in the first quarter of '04, I will finally be able to go Microsoft-free at home. The wife won't let me switch her desktop until they have a Dreamweaver-like product that runs on Linux. So '04 for me.

    7. Re:I think... by howlinmonkey · · Score: 1

      Crossover Office offers support for Dreamweaver under Linux. This page has a list of software supported; and for $60, I think its worth it.

      I am beginning a migration toward Linux on my desktop full-time as well, and Crossover Office is the one tool that will make it possible.

    8. Re:I think... by NamShubCMX · · Score: 1

      Quanta should be fully WYSIWYG by 2004 (end) too :) But as many other people said, "set-top" box are one of the key point. If you're building a sub-500$ box to play DVDs, Mp3s/Ogg Vorbis and record TV shows, you won't spend an extra 150$ for Windows... And since you'll learn how to install linux in the process, why not try it in a dual-boot setup in your main desktop... :)

      --
      We've always been at war with Eurasia.
  8. My predictions by RighteousFunby · · Score: 2

    DRM will have been adopted (albeit forcibly) in the kernel to cope with the Fritz chip. We'll be on about kernel 2.6.4 or thereabouts. KDE 3.2, possibly even 3.3, will have been released, and GNOME will be up to about 2.8, maybe 3. Around 15 governments will have taken on Linux in some way or form. MS's FUD is beginning to weaken.

    And there are still Soviet Russia jokes on Slashdot. :)

    1. Re:My predictions by GreyWolf3000 · · Score: 4, Insightful
      I disagree about the Fritz chip. Even Windows users hate it (that know about it). If you think that the Fritz chip would pass without people knowing about it, I would have to disagree with that too.

      The kernel will get up to at least 2.6.10 by December '04, and KDE will probably release 3.3 (or 4.0) later on in the year as well, along with Gnome 3.0.

      --
      Slashdot: Where people pretend to be twice as smart as they really are by behaving like children.
    2. Re:My predictions by PReDiToR · · Score: 1

      It isn't about it passing without notice, its about security, being the buzzword of the noughties (00's) and how persuasive the NSA and the FBI are in making manufacturers adopt it.

      --

      Do not meddle in the affairs of geeks for they are subtle and quick to anger
    3. Re:My predictions by GreyWolf3000 · · Score: 1

      I'm sure if it's not by law required than there will be non-Fritzed motherboards out there.

      --
      Slashdot: Where people pretend to be twice as smart as they really are by behaving like children.
    4. Re:My predictions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And there are still Soviet Russia jokes on Slashdot. :)

      In Soviet Russia, Linux kernel predicts you in 2004. :)

  9. Doesn't DOD already use it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I thought that DOD went out and purchased 10000 licenses of Star Office from Sun... Weren't those for Linux? Or were they for winders?

    1. Re:Doesn't DOD already use it? by bl1st3r · · Score: 1

      Most likely they were for Sun machines. The DOD buy HUGE amounts of Sun servers/desktops across the board. I don't know why DOD loves Sun so much, but they'll probably keep buying from them instead of Linux. It would be too cost inefficient to move all their legacy systems over to Linux than it is to just pay Sun for the hardware.

      --
      hrrm.
  10. The image we want to project? by toddestan · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Maybe having Linux being "good enough for government work" isn't exactly the image we want Linux to have. Just like I think having Linux on cheap, disposable, sub-par computers from places like Wal-mart may not be the best thing either.

    The real goal is to have people see Linux as a viable alternative, not a cheap Windows imitation or some eccentric thing the government uses.

    1. Re:The image we want to project? by GreyWolf3000 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Being low-cost is a good way to win people over. The software quality will speak for itself. If a distribution feels quirky, slow, and unpolished, that alone will make Linux look "cheap." If it is Done Right (TM), people will actually just think that Windows is too expensive.

      --
      Slashdot: Where people pretend to be twice as smart as they really are by behaving like children.
    2. Re:The image we want to project? by Prof.Phreak · · Score: 2, Interesting

      VERY good point. I've heard so many stories about "Oh, I've tried Linux and it's slow", and then questioning further, I find out that they've installed it on their old Pentium1 box - well D0H, of course it will be slow compared to Windows running on a P4!

      The image needs to be: If you have a GOOD computer in your home, use it for Linux! Give the trash computer to Windows. Most people will quickly realize that Linux outperforms Windows and is snappier to use if the hardware is equivalent.

      (I actually have 2 computers with relatively common hardware, one running XP, the other running Linux, and I must say that Linux feels much faster).

      --

      "If anything can go wrong, it will." - Murphy

    3. Re:The image we want to project? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The software quality already speaks for itself. Nobody uses Linux.

      Why? Because it supports a tiny fraction of the hardware normal people actually want to use, because other than Mozilla, Evolution and Open Office there is simply no usable software that runs on it, because the distros come with 100s of completely awful, useless piece of crap betas with no sense of a homogeneous user interface, because at least 3 different modern distros actually don't support dual monitors on 2 separate video cards in spite of what the config software says, because the config is so moronic that it will let you do things that render your computer completely impossible to use without a warning (case in point: I set up dual monitors, but the GUI config utility didn't have any option to set the layout, i.e. 2nd monitor left of 1st monitor or the opposite, and so when I rebooted the main screen was shifted over to the right outside of the display area of the rightmost monitor, which meant I had no display; spending 3 hours online with a Linux support guy didn't manage to get dual monitors to work by hand-editing the X config file, even though the OS recognized both cards and both monitors by name; the OS thought that monitor 1 was hooked up to video card 2 and vice versa; etc). In other words, because Linux is more like a 1952 Chevy truck than a 2003 BMW (or even a 1996 Toyota Corolla), in spite of what those BILL GATE$ I$ EVUL LINUX RULE$ morons will have you believe.

      In 1998, I heard "give Linux a couple of years to catch up and it will solve all your problems". It's almost 2004 and Linux is still crap, a glorified beta that inept geeks will try to have you believe is the best thing since slice bread. Sheesh.

    4. Re:The image we want to project? by RighteousFunby · · Score: 1

      I tried going Linux cold turkey once, and went back to XP. It was INTOLERABLE. Menus took 3 seconds to open fully, there was a virus PREINSTALLED, my ethernet card wouldn't work, and none of this happened on Linux. Heck, I don't even need a virus checker under Linux. This is the same box.

      Guess which one I'm using now?

      Yup, RH9 with GNOME. No more MS. At all.

    5. Re:The image we want to project? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Beside loading your porn library and maintaining your Buffy database, do you have any real life evidence?

    6. Re:The image we want to project? by GreyWolf3000 · · Score: 2, Interesting
      The software quality already speaks for itself. Nobody uses Linux.

      Actually, across the world millions of people use Linux.

      Why? Because it supports a tiny fraction of the hardware normal people actually want to use,

      Define "tiny." It actually supports more hardware than Windows does. It also supports most hardware that most people have. Hardly "tiny."

      because other than Mozilla, Evolution and Open Office there is simply no usable software that runs on it,

      I use many, many more pieces of software than those three.

      because the distros come with 100s of completely awful, useless piece of crap betas with no sense of a homogeneous user interface,

      Linux distributions offer more software by default than Windows does. There is crap software for Windows as well. If Windows shipped with, say, a really lame filesharing client that constantly crashed, would that have anything to do with the quality of the software that said client is running on?

      because at least 3 different modern distros actually don't support dual monitors on 2 separate video cards in spite of what the config software says,

      The distros all run the same software, hence if something works on one distribution, it can run on the rest of them. Some distributions automatically take care of it, however, and others do not. Whether or not the end user should be responsible for configuring his system manually is another matter entirely. In any case, your claim is just plain wrong.

      because the config is so moronic that it will let you do things that render your computer completely impossible to use without a warning

      Why, specifically, should Linux be on trial for the mistakes of the user? Where did Linux claim itself to be responsible for the actions of it's users? What part of "use at your own risk" do you not get? What makes you think you cannot destroy a Windows setup with equal ease? Hint: you can. The "safeguards" are a paper-thin veneer.

      (case in point: I set up dual monitors, but the GUI config utility didn't have any option to set the layout, i.e. 2nd monitor left of 1st monitor or the opposite, and so when I rebooted the main screen was shifted over to the right outside of the display area of the rightmost monitor, which meant I had no display; spending 3 hours online with a Linux support guy didn't manage to get dual monitors to work by hand-editing the X config file, even though the OS recognized both cards and both monitors by name; the OS thought that monitor 1 was hooked up to video card 2 and vice versa; etc).

      I am not going to apologize for you not knowing how to set up your system properly. Distributions that claim to be as easy to use as Windows have a responsibility to make such matters work "seamlessly," but just because they make mistakes today doesn't mean that they will never be able to fix them.

      In other words, because Linux is more like a 1952 Chevy truck than a 2003 BMW (or even a 1996 Toyota Corolla),

      Doesn't seem that way to me.

      in spite of what those BILL GATE$ I$ EVUL LINUX RULE$ morons will have you believe.

      What about those WINDOW$ RULEZ LINUX SUCK$ morons?

      In 1998, I heard "give Linux a couple of years to catch up and it will solve all your problems". It's almost 2004 and Linux is still crap, a glorified beta that inept geeks will try to have you believe is the best thing since slice bread. Sheesh.

      Something tells me you haven't tried it recently. If you think that Linux has not made progress since 1998, then you are either a) completely unknowledgable, or b) a complete and utter moron.

      Please tell me you're just misinformed.

      Linux is not a product. It's a process. And it works.

      --
      Slashdot: Where people pretend to be twice as smart as they really are by behaving like children.
    7. Re:The image we want to project? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Gentoo is very fast and polished.

    8. Re:The image we want to project? by antiMStroll · · Score: 1
      Why does everyone think there only one route towards acceptance? Linux advanced from a student hobby to a monopoly's number one perceived threat without having given a single rat's ass about 'image' so far. Likely it will continue to do so.

      For me one of Linux's most refreshing strengths is not having to deal with layers of marketing bullshit and lies or work with mass-appeal desktops designed by marketing 'experts'. Fortunately, its completely open license scheme assures I never will be forced into a one-size-fits-all OS.

    9. Re:The image we want to project? by Prof.Phreak · · Score: 1

      I haven't used RH (been using Slackware then Gentoo), so don't know if you can upgrade the kernel in RH...

      but... If you're running 2.4 (last I've heard, RH9 came with that), you should upgrade to 2.6, it is noticebly faster... really.

      Yey, Linux Rulez!

      --

      "If anything can go wrong, it will." - Murphy

  11. Linux PDAs by YoungBonzi · · Score: 0, Troll

    Has anyone heard of these?

    1. Re:Linux PDAs by mhesseltine · · Score: 1

      I really hope this isn't a troll. If so, sorry for feeding. Google for Linux PDA

      There was a company that made one called the VX3 IIRC. And, of course, there's the Sharp Zaurus. I also think that you can get Linux to run on the ARM based PDAs, such as the iPAQ, HP Jordana, etc.

      --
      Overrated / Underrated : Moderation :: Anonymous Coward : Posting
    2. Re:Linux PDAs by LnxAddct · · Score: 1

      I've got a Dell Axim, I wish it was an IPaq because of the linux compatibility. Is the Sharp Zaurus worth getting? I really want/need a PDA to have Linux on it for various reasons. The axim was a gift and has major linux issues. Anyone have any recommendations?

    3. Re:Linux PDAs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      linux pdas, more then you can buy (well, at least more then I can buy...)

  12. A year of peace..... by monadicIO · · Score: 1

    I see a year of peace for everyone and linux....errmm except, may be
    Darl and gang.

    --

    The law of excluded middle : Either I'm foo or I'm foobar

  13. Howto's.. by msimm · · Score: 1

    accepted to the point where most major distros are shipping it and most howtos are being written for it

    I think it won't be read until howto's are a thing (primarily) of the past.

    --
    Quack, quack.
    1. Re:Howto's.. by Trepalium · · Score: 2, Informative

      Howtos will likely remain forever... I'd be fairly happy to see the howtos for rather mundane things go away or at least lose some of their utility. Today, things like the CDROM HOWTO, Ethernet HOWTO and ISP-Connectivity HOWTO are unnessesary for most people. Other things like the ADSL HOWTO, CD Writing HOWTO and DVD HOWTO are still nessesary evils.

      --
      I used up all my sick days, so I'm calling in dead.
    2. Re:Howto's.. by koekepeer · · Score: 2, Insightful

      i don't think it's a good idea to take out HOWTO's that are not considered neccesary for *most* people.

      maybe things will autoconfigure in the (near) future, but for example the ethernet HOWTO you mention was very instrumental in getting two nics to work on an old box i transformed into a router for my DSL connection some years ago.

      so they might not be of use to you, but they sure as hell are to thers. and it's not as if they're using up a lot of space as compared to your average modern linux desktop environment...

      i do think some HOWTO's need serious updating...

    3. Re:Howto's.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He's not saying to get rid of them. He's saying to make them unnecessary (as-in you can do it without a howto)

  14. My thoughts... by danielrm26 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    # Which Linux application area do you believe will grow the fastest in 2004?

    If not strictly meaning desktop applications, I'd say overall infrastructure. Web servers, mail servers, etc. And this will take place mostly in governments that can't afford MS licensing (it's already happening).

    # Will 2004 *finally* be the year when Linux makes significant in-roads on the desktop?

    No. The new X movements are just now gaining momentum, and it will take quite a while before it starts really biting into MS marketshare. I'd say 2006 maybe, like a previous poster. And that's *if* things go well.

    # Which distributions will show the greatest growth in 2004?

    I'd say Fedora (corporate), Knoppix (safety of cd distro), and Gentoo (great distro, great community).

    # Will the SCO debacle slow Linux adoption over the next year?

    No. I think it will die soon. It is just a matter of time before the whole thing is brought before a judge who is able to sort through the SCO lawyer crap, and when that happens, they'll throw the whole thing out.

    # Will Tux finally get a girlfriend?

    Yes. The hottie in Matrix 3. (he can have anyone)

    # Or, make your own question(s) up...

    Q: What is the single most annoying thing about the Linux community?
    A: Irrational trash-talking about Microsoft. There are plenty of *rational* ways to criticize them, and people should stick to those arguments rather than ranting on and on about the same old tired issues. At some point the Bill Gates and Blue Screen jokes just lose their luster.

    --
    dmiessler.com -- grep understanding knowledge
    1. Re:My thoughts... by PReDiToR · · Score: 1

      At some point the Bill Gates and Blue Screen jokes just lose their luster.

      Its was in the 1980s for most of us.

      Sorry, couldn't resist. This is the reason we do it. Its still funny to hate MS. Human nature needs something to complain about and if it happens to be someone universally hated, like a successful businessman, then all to the good.

      You can take away my computer, but you can't take away my MS-antipathy.

      --

      Do not meddle in the affairs of geeks for they are subtle and quick to anger
    2. Re:My thoughts... by danielrm26 · · Score: 1

      "Its still funny to hate MS."

      Is it though? I don't know, it just seems tired usually. I agree that if someone does it in some new and creative way, then yeah, but most anti-MS rhetoric is becoming cliche at this point.

      I guess the goal of any self-respecting MS-hater should be to make fun of them in a way that no one has yet.

      --
      dmiessler.com -- grep understanding knowledge
    3. Re:My thoughts... by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

      At some point the Bill Gates and Blue Screen jokes just lose their luster

      Yeah, for you maybe. But for those just joining the comunity they're still shinny and new :).

      --
      Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    4. Re:My thoughts... by danielrm26 · · Score: 1

      "Yeah, for you maybe. But for those just joining the comunity they're still shinny and new :)"

      Yeah, you have a point there.

      --
      dmiessler.com -- grep understanding knowledge
    5. Re:My thoughts... by zurab · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Q: What is the single most annoying thing about the Linux community?
      A: Irrational trash-talking about Microsoft. There are plenty of *rational* ways to criticize them, and people should stick to those arguments rather than ranting on and on about the same old tired issues. At some point the Bill Gates and Blue Screen jokes just lose their luster.


      Interesting post up to that point. The main reason being that you can't view community as a single entity. The Linux "community" you are speaking of includes millions of Linux users worldwide. You can't judge everyone under one "community" umbrella. Obviously, by the virtue of the size of the "community", if you listen, you will hear almost all kinds of opinions - some of which you agree with, some of which you may view as disappointing or even annoying and irrational. And, in my opinion, that should be expected. What would you have otherwise? That everyone had a single voice? Only one type of opinion on everything? That's not only unrealistic, it's outright bad.

      The growth of Linux users will only result in more diversity in what you refer as "community", and that's a good thing (tm). Sure, some attitudes are annoying, some opinions stupid, others are clever and reasonable; yet others flaming everyone else in sight. It's exactly the same as in every other "community" of sufficient size, Mac, Linux, Windows, or anything else.
    6. Re:My thoughts... by danielrm26 · · Score: 1

      "Sure, some attitudes are annoying, some opinions stupid, others are clever and reasonable; yet others flaming everyone else in sight. It's exactly the same as in every other "community" of sufficient size, Mac, Linux, Windows, or anything else."

      True, and I accept your criticism of my criticism. :) It just seems that the people in places like /. take it to the extreme with the anti-MS thing. It's not like a balanced thing as with other topics and other communities. Sure, there are those that aren't anti-MS in the community, but the overwhelming vocal group is downright hostile toward them.

      But yeah, I agree with your post in general.

      --
      dmiessler.com -- grep understanding knowledge
    7. Re:My thoughts... by RoLi · · Score: 1
      Irrational trash-talking about Microsoft. There are plenty of *rational* ways to criticize them, and people should stick to those arguments rather than ranting on and on about the same old tired issues. At some point the Bill Gates and Blue Screen jokes just lose their luster.

      Oh yeah,

      • remember when important members of the community called Windows un-americanic?
      • Remember when they said is was like a cancer?
      • Remember when they threatened to sue all end-users without any proof? (And without actually really suing any end users?)

      That's a lot worse than anything I've heard from any relevant member of the OSS community. Even RMS whose views seem a little bit extreme to me, has never said anything comparable to what Bill Gates, Steve Ballmer or Darl McBride have said.

      Sorry, but I think you should get your senses checked, you seem to be blind and deaf on one side.

    8. Re:My thoughts... by wytcld · · Score: 1

      more diversity in what you refer as "community"

      We're thinking this through backwards. Freedom to choose your OS is like freedom to choose who to marry. Yes, there are major differences in interfaces and configuration between different models. Yes, the quality of your life is strongly affected by the success of your choice.

      Okay, I've seen people all over the major media lately claiming that extending to gays the freedom to choose who to marry will weaken the institution of marriage. The logic here must be that if more of the wrong people come into an institution it weakens it. Compare a church: If more people come to a church we'd say it strengthens the institution of the church, except if they're the wrong people.

      The way to end Windows dominance then is to weaken the institution by getting more of the wrong people to use it. That will increase support costs exponentially and make it uncool by association. Then we should strengthen the institution of Linux by saying, "While some court may say you have the legal right, please don't use Linux in our state. Don't dilute the sanctified, traditional relation between hardware and geek. Praise the Penguin!"

      --
      "with their freedom lost all virtue lose" - Milton
    9. Re:My thoughts... by Ann+Elk · · Score: 1
      Q: What is the single most annoying thing about the Linux community? A: Irrational trash-talking about Microsoft. There are plenty of *rational* ways to criticize them, and people should stick to those arguments rather than ranting on and on about the same old tired issues. At some point the Bill Gates and Blue Screen jokes just lose their luster.
      This reminds me of an old Dennis Miller joke:
      Don't hate someone because of the color of their skin. If you just take the time to get to know them, you'll find many, more valid reasons to hate them.
    10. Re:My thoughts... by AbbyNormal · · Score: 1

      True, but the loudest voices in the crowd are always heard more than the reasonable voice.

      All a MS marketing person needs to do is simply point at one those silly posts and say: "See? Immaturity. Would you want them writing your mission critical software?"
      Simply point a PHB in the right direction and poof, there goes another Linux opportunity.

      I believe that the Linux community should never compromise their goals and vision, but at the same time a little understanding of the business management would not hurt.

      --
      Sig it.
    11. Re:My thoughts... by Spoing · · Score: 1
      Interesting post up to that point. The main reason being that you can't view community as a single entity. ... That everyone had a single voice? Only one type of opinion on everything? That's not only unrealistic, it's outright bad.

      Agreed, though much of the public perception is that these people speak for everyone. Unfortunately, this comes from the new users who get a rush of excitement when they see what OSS can do, and are still angry at Microsoft for one reason or another. I do get frustrated when I have to deal with Microsoft products or Windows in general, though it lessens when I don't use Microsoft's products.

      In the meantime, since Windows is in heavy use where I am now, I'm attempting to bring what is good with the Unix way of doing things to Windows and there are quite a few tools that patch up some of the differences. Unfortunately, you have to really dig to get anything moderately close to the tools that are as capable as what ships with most Linux distributions.

      It's exactly the same as in every other "community" of sufficient size, Mac, Linux, Windows, or anything else.

      True, though Windows and Mac people don't see it much.

      --
      A firewall can not protect you from yourself. Turn off what you do not need. Do not use the firewall to do your work.
    12. Re:My thoughts... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Which distributions will show the greatest growth in 2004?

      I'd say Fedora (corporate), Knoppix (safety of cd distro), and Gentoo (great distro, great community).
      I think Suse. Novell is acquiring them. Perhaps they have some plans for Linux.
    13. Re:My thoughts... by antiMStroll · · Score: 1
      "Simply point a PHB in the right direction and poof, there goes another Linux opportunity."

      Not really. Any PHB who makes an infrastructure choice based on a salespeson's comments about a public message board will be Biggie Sizing soon enough.

    14. Re:My thoughts... by danielrm26 · · Score: 1

      True, SuSe should have been on my list too...:)

      Oh well...

      --
      dmiessler.com -- grep understanding knowledge
  15. top ten by geekoid · · Score: 5, Funny

    10) certen people will still froth at the mouth if you don't stamp GNU in front of it

    9) people still won't spell well on slashdot

    8) Bill Gates will spread FUD

    7) A slashdot poster will get sued by David Lettermen for top ten copyright violation

    6) Microsoft will announce that Linus T. uses windows. This will be true, except they will fail to add "to look out of."

    5) SCO will disappear.

    4) A major exploit will be discover in Linux.

    3) Apple will stop supporting anything they released in 2003.

    2) DOOM III will be released for Linux.

    and the number one thing that will effect the linux world: You.

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    1. Re:top ten by sloanster · · Score: 1

      geekoid says:

      2) DOOM III will be released for Linux.

      I pre ordered it way back in the day, and at the time it was supposed to have shipped by March 2003 - apparently it's been delayed. Oh well, that will allow more time for prices to drop a bit on nvidia cards...

    2. Re:top ten by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      0) Most Slashdotters still make three spelling mistakes per sentence.

    3. Re:top ten by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Point #3 is well stated. Apple uses the fact that they have had 4 major released in the last 3 years as a positive marketing ploy. I don't know about most people but it has had a negative impact on my use of OSX. I know they have to make a profit but please slow down a little bit and let users settle in and get comfortable before mixing things up again.

  16. Thanks Michael by EmCeeHawking · · Score: 4, Funny

    I was really starting to miss your witty editorial commentary.

    I think I speak for everyone here when I say "welcome back!"

    1. Re:Thanks Michael by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think I speak for everyone here when I say "welcome back!"

      I think you mean....

      "I think I speak for everyone here when I say, "Welcome back!" to our Slashdot Editorial Overlord!"

  17. Do yah really think it makes a difference? by CrypticSpawn · · Score: 1
    They said, "I think 2004 is going to be a big year for Fedora and Suse, and a challenge for Debian (because Fedora now offers apt for RPM)."

    Lets face it, they totally miss the reason I use Debian instead of the others, frankly, I don't even use Apt on Debian. It is a nice feature to have when you actually want to use it from time to time.

    1. Re:Do yah really think it makes a difference? by CAIMLAS · · Score: 1

      er, explain for me how you're able to avoid using apt on a debian system, please. I'm not aware of such a process that allows this, short of installing every single package manually.

      --
      ~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
    2. Re:Do yah really think it makes a difference? by cgranade · · Score: 1

      Personally, I would love to use Debian, but the installer frankly sucks, and I'm too new to Linux to do it myself yet. Now that anaconda may be ported to Debian, tho, it's bye-bye Red Hat.

      --

      #define DRM chmod 000

    3. Re:Do yah really think it makes a difference? by phoneboy · · Score: 1

      Install Knoppix (http://www.knoppix.com) instead, which is a CD-based distro that's actually pretty easy to install to your hard drive.

      -- PhoneBoy

      --
      The views expressed herein are not necessarily those of anyone, including the poster.
    4. Re:Do yah really think it makes a difference? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can still use dselect as a frontend for dpkg, if you are into fine-tuning and/or masochism. I know for a fact that dselect does not use apt, as it was apt's predecessor. There also is tasksel for installing certain "tasks" in one fell swoop, although it may in turn rely on apt - I don't know, don't use it. Also, there are frontends like aptitude and synaptic that allow one to install packages without typing apt commands directly, but I don't think that was what the previous poster meant.

    5. Re:Do yah really think it makes a difference? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Awhile ago I found myself using IRIX, and I found their package installer, "inst" to be pretty cool.

      It barely handles dependencies, and, well, it does them pretty poorly. But I liked the interface.

      Apt, you have to repeatedly call from the shell. Inst, you call once, and then it gives you a prompt. I like this much better. My dream package installer would have all the features of apt (update, dist-upgrade, dependency handling), but the interface of inst.

  18. Not him again! by benna · · Score: 5, Insightful

    While ESR seems to be very zealous and into the (GNU)/Linux scene, he's it's worst enemy. While Microsoft may spread FUD, people look at this guy and "wtf is this idiot doing? what's he talking about?" if i didn't know better, i'd avoid linux for the sole reason i wouldn't want to be associated with that nut.

    --
    "It is not how things are in the world that is mystical, but that it exists." -Ludwig Wittgenstein
    1. Re:Not him again! by CAIMLAS · · Score: 1

      I think you're mistaking ESR for RMS. RMS is the flaming GNU-fetish driven, EMACS-writing madman. ESR is the more practical of the two. I picture ESR as more of a clueful John Dovorak (I think that is/was his name - the guy that writes/wrote for PC Magazine) for the linux community.

      --
      ~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
    2. Re:Not him again! by originalTMAN · · Score: 1

      reading that post gave me deja vu Not that I don't partially agree. I'd say conflicting projects, lack of hardware vendor support, tier 1 (or even 2) games, the reliance on the console (I'm not complaining but the average user would), and vaporware- see For Details- is probably far more dangerous.

    3. Re:Not him again! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I see you are a fellow jihadi! Welcome to the holy war!

    4. Re:Not him again! by Feztaa · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Have you ever read the Cathedral and the Bazaar? ESR is brilliant, he perfectly describes how and why the Open Source development model WORKS!

      It's RMS that's going to repell people from the community; his uncompromising principles really turn off people who don't understand why Freedom in software is important.

      Hell, ESR is one of the people who coined the term "Open Source", and as a result he's been bringing more people INTO the community (ie, people who were previously repelled by RMS's obnoxious ethics are now drawn in by ESR's pragmatism).

    5. Re:Not him again! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      if i didn't know better, i'd avoid linux for the sole reason i wouldn't want to be associated with that nut.

      It's too bad you don't, because it's kinda annoying when people don't recognize that others occasionally have differing opinions. If you don't like what he believes in, dandy. Has he tried to force his beliefs into your life? No more than you have to him. Some people, you included, need to learn to agree to disagree.

    6. Re:Not him again! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For the record I just posted this karma karma whoring. I'm an extreme leftist and I actually believe his views are not extreme enough. I'm all for the RMS hippy thing.

      benna
      (posting anonymously to avoid being modded down twice)

    7. Re:Not him again! by just+another+cynic · · Score: 1

      Not true.

      Just read ESR's rant on guns. As a resident of a non firearm happy country, I find his views to be insane as well as frightening.

      For this very reason I tend to ignore everything else he has to say.

    8. Re:Not him again! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, ESR is the crazy gun-totin' ultra-libertarian neo-pagan looney, who makes threats when he doesn't get his way, and claims that he can channel the ancient Greek Gods at will.

    9. Re:Not him again! by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 1

      As a resident of a firearm-happy country (the US) I think you're mixing OS politics with other types of politics a little too much. If a piece of software works well, I really don't care about the authors' views on guns, abortion, tax policy, medical care, national security, or any other issue except, well, how much (if anything) to charge me for using their software.

      Yeah, ESR may be a bit of a nut on the gun issue. So what? When writing about open-source, he comes across as eminently sane and reasonable -- which is exactly the kind of spokesman the OSS movement needs. To be fair, I think we also need RMS and his ilk; fanatics get people moving -- but after the movement has started, they need to tone things down a bit, and unfortunately, they usually can't make themselves do that.

      --
      The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
    10. Re:Not him again! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Okay, so he's a gun nut. And a neo-Pagan. I'm not one to judge.

      What I do notice, though, is that everytime he writes something, it's a self-indulgent piece of crap. Just look at his book, "The Art Of Unix Programming", and watch how he rewrites Unix history to suit his fancy, or makes up new techniques and calls them "Unixy". Or look at the latest additiions New Hacker's Dictionary and tell me if you've ever heard anyone say those dorky phrases.

      Or look at how he had the nerve to say he was designing the build system for Linux 2.5... We all know how that went... His patches were ignored. Why? Because he answered a question nobody asked with a solution that nobody wanted. When people brought up limitations to his "new language" (again, that no one asked for), he refused to address them.

    11. Re:Not him again! by antiMStroll · · Score: 1

      Fortunately, the Linux community has Balmer to redress the balance.

    12. Re:Not him again! by giblfiz · · Score: 1

      This from a guy who has "free mummia" as his sig? I mean, if you want "give mummia a fair trial" thats one thing, but come on man.

    13. Re:Not him again! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      This from a guy who has "free mummia" as his sig?
      But he doesn't.
    14. Re:Not him again! by TrentC · · Score: 1

      i'd avoid linux for the sole reason i wouldn't want to be associated with that nut.

      Funny, I avoid Microsoft products because I don't want to be associated with Bill Gates.

      Because everyone picks their software based on their spokespeople, right?

      Jay (=

    15. Re:Not him again! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Right!

    16. Re:Not him again! by benna · · Score: 1
      --
      "It is not how things are in the world that is mystical, but that it exists." -Ludwig Wittgenstein
    17. Re:Not him again! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I love reading slashdot; but the worst part of that experience is the continual drumbeat of putting down famous people for this or that or the other thing. So far almost* EVERYONE I've seen abused herein would make much better dinner guests than any of the nose-picking wannabe brats bitchin bout nothin.

      *=I just remembered SCO.

  19. Never happen until... by ratpick · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Openoffice file conversions from MS Office work better. Yeah, they work pretty well now, good enough for probably 99% of files/users, but that small portion left creates a lot of headaches. Like it or not (I certainly don't) MS Office is the standard, and office app file compatibility is an absolute requirement for widespread adoption of Linux OTD.

    1. Re:Never happen until... by Micah · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No, the answer is education and, in the meantime, PDF for preserving formatting.

      We need to educate people of the value of open standards for file formats. Fortunately, this is starting to happen. Sitting back and saying "Microsoft's proprietary bloated file formats are standard and will always be" is suicide. There's nothing about them that is superior to the OOo formats.

      Keep advocating and give it time. Interest in OOo keeps increasing. As more governments consider its use, more individuals and corporations will also need to try it.

      But until that happens, send PDF files. They usually work better than going from one version of Word to another anyway.

    2. Re:Never happen until... by zurab · · Score: 1
      But until that happens, send PDF files. They usually work better than going from one version of Word to another anyway.


      Unfortunately, PDF format is not designed to be edited very efficiently. It is designed to store formatting, but editing it presents a problem. If your intention is to send a well-formatted document and you need to make sure that's exaclty how the recipient will see it, PDF is a good way to go. But for document storage that need to be revised by multiple parties and readily, quickly and easily edited, PDF has a big disadvantage against MS Office or OpenOffice.org formats.
    3. Re:Never happen until... by micaiah · · Score: 1

      I like your idea, however, isn't pdf proprietary as well? It would be good to find a common standard and then launch a campaign to encourage businesses to save in that format instead of M$. Any ideas?

    4. Re:Never happen until... by cyclist1200 · · Score: 1

      Not everyone can edit a PDF. I would recommend RTF.

    5. Re:Never happen until... by art19 · · Score: 1

      What will help OO is when a large % of people have Office XP at home and Office 97 at work,school or vice versa. Ever tried opening a word xp file with word 97?

    6. Re:Never happen until... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Uhh, ITYM WTF.

    7. Re:Never happen until... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      from my experience I can say that MS$ changed the RTF format in most of it's MS$ Office versions. Using a XML based file format will have benefits fo everyone...

    8. Re:Never happen until... by I+Be+Hatin' · · Score: 1
      Openoffice file conversions from MS Office work better. Yeah, they work pretty well now, good enough for probably 99% of files/users, but that small portion left creates a lot of headaches. Like it or not (I certainly don't) MS Office is the standard...

      Which version is the standard? Like it or not, OO is as good at doc file conversions as different versions of Office are.

      --
      I know god exists. I read it on the internet, so it must be true.
    9. Re:Never happen until... by hacker · · Score: 1
      "We need to educate people of the value of open standards for file formats."

      "But until that happens, send PDF files. They usually work better than going from one version of Word to another anyway."

      In what world do you live in, where PDF is any less proprietary than Microsoft Word documents?

    10. Re:Never happen until... by Tony-A · · Score: 1

      however, isn't pdf proprietary as well?

      Adobe Acrobat is proprietary. The pdf format is not.
      xpdf and some ghostview options and probably others.
      pdf will be readable and writable with or without Adobe.
      pdf is an excellent format for long-term storage.

    11. Re:Never happen until... by Salsaman · · Score: 1

      I would use PDF, but I've yet to find a good PDF editor for Linux. What do you recommend ?

    12. Re:Never happen until... by Celvin · · Score: 1
      I would use PDF, but I've yet to find a good PDF editor for Linux. What do you recommend ?

      I recomend Openoffice.org 1.1, with the nice pdf-export button on the toolbar. In older versions, print to file and the use ps2pdf.

      --
      -- If ignorance is bliss, why aren't there more happy people?
    13. Re:Never happen until... by LMCBoy · · Score: 1

      The point is that Adobe publishes the specs for PDF, so it's much easier for third parties to read/write PDF documents. Unlike the top-secret, purposely obfuscated DOC format.

      --
      Liberal (adj.): Free from bigotry; open to progress; tolerant of others.
    14. Re:Never happen until... by Micah · · Score: 1

      > In older versions, print to file and the use ps2pdf.

      Right, and for me it always ran ps2pdf automatically. The "PDF converter" was just another printer selection. Worked great. So OOo 1.1 and its PDF export wasn't really that big a deal to me. :-)

      Actually, it's even a step backwards, because under OOo 1.0 I could merge-print to PDF using that method. Now, under 1.1, the PDF export doesn't support merge printing and the "PDF converter" printer filter isn't there anymore! Oh well.

    15. Re:Never happen until... by Jason+Earl · · Score: 1

      This is why government conversions are such a big deal. When the government asks you for a document in a certain format, you don't send them a different format, even if the different format is the "standard."

      Once OpenOffice/StarOffice gets entrenched in government Microsoft is going to have a very hard time maintaining their grip over all of the rest of us. After all, all of us that have dealings with the government are going to need a copy of OpenOffice or StarOffice in order to share documents with the government. The fact that OpenOffice is available free of charge (it even comes with source code) will further accelerate the change.

      Once the need for compatibility with MS Office is gone OpenOffice/StarOffice is an easy choice. OpenOffice is actually a pretty darn amazing piece of work. Unfortunately, most reviews only touch on its ability to share documents with MS Office users.

    16. Re:Never happen until... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Never happen until they change the name from OOo to something cool. I mean come on.. they could at least call it Word processor.com and spreadsheet.cx

    17. Re:Never happen until... by Salsaman · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the tips. I have OO 1.0, but I never knew this functionality existed.

  20. Success on the desktop by marderj · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Unfortunately, I think that all this SCO garbage is going to have an impact in the data center. I don't think very many CIO's are going to be jumping to adopt Linux. Even though it's all a bunch of bullshit it's still a risky move until all this blows over. No one wants to become a target for some sue-happy company that can't compete in the current market if it can be avoided. No flames please. Just imagine a CIO pitches Linux as a huge money saver. Then by some insane turn of events SCO wins and charges $699 a cpu. That cost-saving move ends up costing 3 times as much as before. It's a risk not everyone is eager to take. I may be wrong, but I just don't see Linux having huge success in the server market as long as SCO is still spouting off. In the long run I don't think this will have much of an effect on anything. Linux has made its mark and once things clear up I think many CIO's will consider it a very attractive option. On the other hand Linux has a huge opportunity on the desktop right now. The mainstream distributions are becoming more useable with every release. All the security nonsense with Microsoft can only help Linux as well. It seems like Windows never gets good press anymore and I'm not just talking about techie publications either. Every time there's a new worm it's on the front page of CNN. After people read enough of that they start to think maybe it's time to a less susceptible platform. Just my 2 cents.

  21. My God... by Talez · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Will 2004 *finally* be the year when Linux makes significant in-roads on the desktop?

    Yes. Government adoptions happening in Massachusetts, Brazil, South Africa, and all over the Pacific Rim are driving this trend. There's a lot happening in the private sector, too, but the adopters there won't talk about that because thety want to hold on to their advantage over competitors paying the Microsioft tax.


    Of course! The business world is absolutely full of Linux on the desktop but it's the worlds best kept fucking secret.

    ESR is spouting off bullshit thats even more crackpotish than usual. He must be taking lessons from our old friend Darl or something.

    1. Re:My God... by monadicIO · · Score: 2, Funny

      he business world is absolutely full of Linux on the desktop but it's the worlds best kept fucking secret.
      I was hoping that thw world's best kept fucking secret would be something that involved sex. Perhaps in 2004 it will.

      --

      The law of excluded middle : Either I'm foo or I'm foobar

  22. What I want in 2004 . . . by EmCeeHawking · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I think there needs to be more unification and simplification over the way things are installed in , not only Linux, but the BSDs as well.

    I think everyone agrees that rpms suck. Most of the good code comes in source tarballs - configurable for any *nix... but this is where the user experience falls apart. What person is going to want to dig out the command line to compile source code, and will he or she know about all the ocnfigure options... and then, will there be dependency issues (or should the source contain the dependencies too?). Then there are the legal issues of bundling dependancies... and then there will be future commercial Linux apps which won't want to include source code.

    In an ideal world, packaged installs will be a compressed single file, containing all source code, configurable on any *nix like normal source code EXCEPT that now there's a graphical interface so that setting compile options, creating desktop shortcuts, and "Make clean, make install, make uninstall" now all work under X with a point-and-click.

    PLEASE! Will someone serious about standardizing Linux installs do something about this... or desktop Linux will never take off.

    1. Re:What I want in 2004 . . . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You should check out Gentoo Linux's Portage system. While there isn't really a good GUI, it fits your description to a T. A simple "emerge " will download, compile, and install a given program. cflags are set in a global configuration file and applied to everything compiled by portage, and the USE variable allows configuration of various compile options, such as support for qt/gtk/gtk-2, hardware support, or support for a particular print system. It would be worth looking at.

    2. Re:What I want in 2004 . . . by ajs318 · · Score: 2, Interesting
      This is why I like Slackware's simple packaging system. But I am no longer a newbie.

      RPMs are dire, unless they are the common ones included in the distro. On my Mandrake box, I seriously prefer tar.gz packages because they are just more reliable.

      The problem is maintaining an accurate database of what depends on what. Debian have rigorous testing procedures, they test everything so many times that it get out-of-date.

      Two ways out of it:
      1. sell CD-ROMs containing collections of packages proven to work when installed on anything with a kernel, because every dependency would already be meetable from the CD contents.
      2. set up an online package base which automatically reports any installation difficulties to a forum where other users can offer suggestions, and once a solution is found, update the dependencies for that package for the benefit of the next person.
      Option 1 has the disadvantage that you have to sell many copies of the CD to break even out of it, because you have to sell it cheaply enough that people will buy it from you rather than anyone else. Option 2 has the disadvantage that if it's reporting users' config info, it looks a bit like spyware {but from the practical standpoint, you can't just go to the vet and say "my dog is poorly", not take the dog with you, not describe its symptoms, and still expect a cure. But if you s/dog/PC/ and s/vet/phone support/ it's a different matter in most people's eyes}.
      --
      Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
    3. Re:What I want in 2004 . . . by Edulix · · Score: 1

      Portage is a pretty good solution:
      * You can easily install whatever
      * There' a lot of software, and it's almost always at it's last version.
      * USE variables are a pretty good and easy way of setting compile options.
      * It's usally easy to update an ebuild from one version to another (for example from gaim 0.72 to gaim 0.73). Developing ebuilds it's normally easy if you know howto develop bash scripts.
      * It's a big and good comunity

      Despite maybe portage could be a solution for EmCeeHawking (I also use Gentoo =), I think that Gentoo nor Portage are ready for the desktop, because:

      * There's a lot of software, but not all the software that can be used in Linux is into portage, and maybe it's in it, but not up-to-date.
      * A need to compile software as the better solution to install programs in Linux, I think that's a poor solution for Joe user, who wants it's software just now!
      Precompiled packages exist, but there's no portage tree for them, and Now there are only included some big GRP packages (OO, KDE, Gnome, Xfree..) in the CDs.

      I think that what mainly Linux in the desktop needs is:

      * Something standard for developers to create packages of their software, so that they don't need to waste their time creating one ebuild, one deb, one rpm for rh9, another for mdk, another for Suse..

      * A standard to install, delete, and manage software.

      * As readed in Slashdot yesterday in another news, a way so that the developers of each peace of software are the ones in charge of put their applicationsin the menues. A la Mac OS.

      And that's what I think that is needed and not planned. There' more needs, but they're more less planed (OpenOffice 2, all the standards of freedesktop, Mono, the KeithPackard Xserver, etc).

      Don't get confused: sometimes even me (don't you?) only want to install software and need it to "just functions".

      Regards,
      Edulix.
      PD: Apologise my bad english =).

    4. Re:What I want in 2004 . . . by hacker · · Score: 1
      "What person is going to want to dig out the command line to compile source code, and will he or she know about all the ocnfigure options... and then, will there be dependency issues (or should the source contain the dependencies too?)."

      Most developers don't even know all of the available configure options, CFLAGS and LDFLAGS optimizations, and source-level-per-hardware pokes to make the package build with the best speed and options availble to it, to minimize breakage and increase compatibility. I see this all the time in irc. It goes like this:

      <noob>Hi, I can't seem to get 'Package X' to build. It just quits when I run configure.

      <me>What were your configure arguments?

      <noob>./configure, run as root. I got errors running it as a user, so I just do everything as root.

      <me>No configure parameters?

      What was your --prefix?

      What did config.log say?

      Where did it give you an error?

      Did you say you were configuring and building this as root? NEVER do that!

      Do you have the compiler and linker set up properly?

      What about your system headers and includes?

      All development libraries and headers also installed?

      (noob in test-pattern hypnotic stare)

      They expect that ./configure replaces SETUP.EXE, and that just isn't the case. This is a hurdle that users who decide to use source, need to understand, not a problem we (as developers of said software) have to fix.

    5. Re:What I want in 2004 . . . by bluGill · · Score: 1

      The big problem with option one is it gets out of date so quickly. Sure you can ship me a CD with a bunch of tested software. It will have older versions all over though. KDE 3.1.3 (from july 29th, I'm not sure if you could a release of everything containing software that new out in just a few months) is nice, but 3.1.4 is current, and the 3.2.0 betas are really nice, indicating a release is forthcoming. Thats just one (large) package. Then there are all the libs. LibXSLT, libJPEG, and a few others have been updated, presumably for a reason so your cd should be updated.

      FreeBSD Ports does a pretty good job, but even still there are always a few packages broken except or out of date. Except at release time, but by the time release happens several more packages have been updated but the decision was made to not support them...

    6. Re:What I want in 2004 . . . by advocate_one · · Score: 1
      " and will he or she know about all the ocnfigure options..."

      oh heck!!! now he tells me... I've only just got the hang of the "configure" options and now he lets out that there are "ocnfigure" options as well...

      --
      Donald 'Duck' Dunn: We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.
    7. Re:What I want in 2004 . . . by advocate_one · · Score: 1
      urpmi...


      for Mandrake go to easy urpmi to get the correct lines to enter to sort out your local mirrors and then you're sorted... It works with Mandrakes Software Installer and any software you search for using that tool that isn't on your distro CDs but exists out on contribs or PLF etc. and you've got configured as a source for urpmi will be downloaded along with all the required dependencies and installed for you.

      oh and by the way... using tar.gz files and compiling from source is what screws up your system... cos what you're doing is sticking libraries in that are not covered in the rpm database. No wonder your system gets it's knickers in a twist and you consider rpms to be unreliable... stick with using urpmi and wait for the package to be built for you and put up on the contribs site... otherwise, learn how to build your own rpms cos that way your rpm database will not get messed up when compiling from source.

      --
      Donald 'Duck' Dunn: We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.
    8. Re:What I want in 2004 . . . by ajs318 · · Score: 1
      oh and by the way... using tar.gz files and compiling from source is what screws up your system... cos what you're doing is sticking libraries in that are not covered in the rpm database. No wonder your system gets [its] knickers in a twist and you consider rpms to be unreliable..
      Not exactly ..... that is what /usr/local/ is for, after all. The package manager doesn't touch it, but it's in the path, and the configure script in the library tarball will simply put the new version in /usr/local/lib/. The configure script for the dependent package will search the path, checking for version numbers, till it finds the one in /usr/local/lib/. So the theory goes, anyway, but I guess in practice, theory and practice are not always the same.

      I'll try using urpmi though, rather than go installing tarballs willy-nilly ..... I'm installing it onto a bigger HDD than my old 8.2, so nothing is lost if I have to go back to square one.

      I think the common problem with broken packages is that the package builder simply omits to mention a necessary file in the dependency list; so when you come to install it, if you haven't got that same file in the same place as the packager originally had it, then it won't work. Installing a totally different package that happens to provide that file cures everything. So how about a tool which would allow users to search on the internet for packages where "missing" files can be found, install them and notify the package maintainers as to how they managed to fix it? Semi-automatic user contributions, almost .....
      --
      Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
    9. Re:What I want in 2004 . . . by advocate_one · · Score: 1
      "So how about a tool which would allow users to search on the internet for packages where "missing" files can be found, install them and notify the package maintainers as to how they managed to fix it?"

      Almost... rpmfind will let you search on a dependency because it can parse the rpm files for the requires and provides info. (There are more local mirrors available as well). So when you try and install a package that gives you a dependencies error, you can query it (or google, cos google also indexes rpmfind :)) and it will come back with the rpms that will satisfy that dependency.

      --
      Donald 'Duck' Dunn: We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.
  23. Moving that way by ImTwoSlick · · Score: 5, Interesting
    I work at a USGS mapping center, and about 75% of us programmers use Linux almost exclusively. The IT department also has quite a few linux servers running too.

    The real influx of Linux is due to the hiring of university students. Push Linux in the schools, and it'll end up in businesses and the gov.

    1. Re:Moving that way by uwquazi · · Score: 1
      The real influx of Linux is due to the hiring of university students. Push Linux in the schools, and it'll end up in businesses and the gov.

      Although I completely agree with this, the question becomes WHO should push Linux. Companys like Red Hat seem to be pushing Linux into the private sector, not education. I have seen MS try and push a lot of "discount" software at my university and try and push the admin into adopting .NET languages into Engineering courses; I have yet to see anyone aside from (seemingly) fanatic computer clubs push for Linux.

      I think it'd be great if there was some "Linux Marketing Board" to call up my school and say "Hey, why don't you turn that old NT lab into a Linux lab for a fraction of the cost of the MS 'educational discount'?".

  24. Does Germany Count? by cookie_cutter · · Score: 4, Informative
    Maybe even a first world national government promoting it in some way.

    Like, say, Germany?

    1. Re:Does Germany Count? by a.ameri · · Score: 0, Troll

      Nah! How many years will it take people like you, to realize that "the old europe" is not a 1st world country?!! Get over it, it's old, it can't be first !!

      --
      -- /* Those who don't underestand Unix, are condemned to reinvent it poorly */
    2. Re:Does Germany Count? by monkeyfinger · · Score: 1
      I read the article and came across this...

      Microsoft, whose Windows operating system runs more than nine in every ten desktop machines around the world, is keen to keep its hegemony. It says that switching to open source can damage a country's indigenous IT industry, because some varieties of open source software place restrictions on copyright and intellectual property. It also says that it is a more reliable partner than smaller, less well-established open source distributors. "Any policy that favours one thing over another isn't helpful," a Microsoft Europe spokeswoman told the Journal. "It limits choice rather than increasing choice."

      Microsoft says open source "limits choice". Pot. Kettle. Black.

    3. Re:Does Germany Count? by monkeyfinger · · Score: 1
      The pilgrims landed in America less than four hundred years ago. Guess that makes America a developing country.

      :-)

    4. Re:Does Germany Count? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except that the viking landed in North America far far far before that. Almost a thousand years

    5. Re:Does Germany Count? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... and that has to do with what?

    6. Re:Does Germany Count? by RealUlli · · Score: 1
      ...and they came from where?

      Cheers, Ulli

      --
      Simple things should be simple, complex things should be possible.
  25. it still isnt gonna go mainstream by Adler · · Score: 4, Insightful

    im sooooo gonna get modded to hell for this but, the #1 reason linux sin't going mainstream anytime soon is the community. its greatest strength is also its greatest weakness.

    its been said before, and i'll say it again, until my mom and dad can run linux without calling me every day, and they can just install something or simply copy and paste from one app in X to another, linux is just gonna stay a hobbist/server OS.

    sorry to say it, but its true, dont give me the "its more stable, its more secure" stuff, you're preaching to the choir here, especiallly at slashdot.

    Linux isn't going anywhere for awhile, im sorry, you just have to deal with it.

    --

    Everybody denies I am a genius--but nobody ever called me one!

    1. Re:it still isnt gonna go mainstream by Valar · · Score: 1

      Umm... how long has it been since you've used linux? Copy and paste works just fine gnome, for example. And considering the fact that I never even have to LOOK for an installer for what I want, I would say installation is easy (for the curious, emerge on gentoo using kemerge-- so don't give me any of that 'you have to install from the command line' stuff).

    2. Re:it still isnt gonna go mainstream by rokzy · · Score: 1

      agreed.

      I use SuSE 8.2 for work because I "ssh -X" to a shared parallel computer and having multiple desktops is almost necessary with all the windows I have open. Windows cannot touch linux in terms of usability for me.

      but the only things I have installed apart from what's on the DVD's and internet updates are Firebird and Thunderbird. I can just unzip them and run. I haven't been able to update or install any programs manually because of all kinds of libraries and development packages being needed too. thankfully with so much on the DVDs it hasn't been necessary.

      similarly, updating and installing drivers (assuming they exist in the first place!) isn't trivial like it usually is with Windows.

    3. Re:it still isnt gonna go mainstream by Ogerman · · Score: 1

      its been said before, and i'll say it again, until my mom and dad can run linux without calling me every day, and they can just install something or simply copy and paste from one app in X to another, linux is just gonna stay a hobbist/server OS.

      Bzzz.. wrong. It's true that Linux/OSS isn't quite ready to become the standard home desktop OS, but for mid-size/corporate business desktops, it's an entirely different story. Fact is, IT staff can very easily deal with administering Linux boxes even if your parents can't yet. If they do it right, they can save a lot of admin time/cost as well. (ex. by using network filesystems so apps only need installed/upgraded once for hundreds/thousands of machines) In the next 5 years, all smart companies are going to deploy Linux/OSS on at least some of their desktops.

      And incidentally, you must not have used Linux/OSS for a long while if you think the "copy/paste issue" is still a significant one.

      Linux is going a lot farther and a lot faster than you think. I'm sorry if you work for M$ or other antiquated proprietary tech company. You'll just have to deal with it.

    4. Re:it still isnt gonna go mainstream by gad_zuki! · · Score: 1

      Gnome comes off as very polished, its a shame there's so much mindshare involved into KDE. Frankly , I think when people have to deal with KDE they get a little nervous. The default is ugly, it feels tacked on, lots of thing tend to not work, etc.

      I think it'll take corporate backing to really push Linux into the desktop and the community probably won't be happy writing tons of GUIs for everything that can easily be done on the command line because Joe-Sixpack doesnt or can't learn all those arcane commands just to do some office stuff.

      I'm looking at Red Hat 9 or Fedora to gain some popularity on the desktop level. RH9 is very polished and the default install is very user friendly. (ignoring the recent expiration of their up2date ssl cert - whoops!)

    5. Re:it still isnt gonna go mainstream by __aawwih8715 · · Score: 0, Troll

      http://Lindows.com/

      Lindows Bruthah.

      Wake up and smell the polished gui.

      Simplified, streamlined. Who couldn't use it?*

      *rhetorical question.

    6. Re:it still isnt gonna go mainstream by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I use SuSE 8.2 for work because I "ssh -X" to a shared parallel computer and having multiple desktops is almost necessary with all the windows I have open. Windows cannot touch linux in terms of usability for me.

      1. PuTTY w/ X-Forwarding
      2. Use Exceed
      3. XP Has multiple desktops :)

    7. Re:it still isnt gonna go mainstream by rokzy · · Score: 1

      2. is it free?
      3. is it free?

    8. Re:it still isnt gonna go mainstream by Adler · · Score: 1

      i'm sorry you missed the point of my post, theres a difference between administering boxes and using them.

      In the next 5 years, all smart companies are going to deploy Linux/OSS on at least some of their desktops.
      care to bet some money on this? i work with alot of smart companies, and they arn't going to, why have a mix when it isnt needed? its a support nightmare for one, and the cost of paying someone to support linux is alot higher than windows.

      As for questioning how long I've used Linux, I find your whole approach to trying to discuss this subject with me rather off. I try to start a productive dialogue about getting Linux into the mainstream and so rather than attempting to debate my points logically, you attack my character and credibility? This is exactly my point about the community being a problem, a lot of you cant look past your own zealotry and hold nothing but arrogance over those who aren't you or Linus, and don't think like you.

      You even prove my point for me. you think just becuase some software is OSS its good? i have news for you, its probly not. open or closed, alot of software sucks ass. just like alot of other professions, there are developers who suck, and a few, just a few, who are excellent at it.

      and finally you attack me with "I'm sorry if you work for M$ or other antiquated proprietary tech company." when, again, you know nothing about me. well in fact I work for a tech company that tries very hard to get customers to use linux/OSS but this is where Linux in fact can become proprietary itself in a way. see, in my town of about 100,000 there about 4-5 companies that do what we do, if a customer uses microsoft then any of these companies can compete for there buisness, not just us. But since we are the only shop that deals in Linux, if they choose linux then they are stuck with us for support, soe where they can spend extra to buy MS products and then pay say $80 an hour for support to someone, if they choose linux we can charge then whatever we want and they're screwed! who else can they turn to? dont we then have a monopoly thanks to linux? arn't monopolies bad? isnt part of what people like you tout about linux/OSS being so great is that you have a choice? what kind of choice is that? choice isnt just for linux, these companies choose Microsoft, it doesnt matter what i suggest they use in the end, it's their money, and their call.

      companies need support, and most OSS software offers none. unless you want to rent a coder to custom code it for you. do a lot of small companies have that kid of money? if you think the answer is "yes" then you haven't been paying attention to anythign i've said.

      --

      Everybody denies I am a genius--but nobody ever called me one!

    9. Re:it still isnt gonna go mainstream by Tony-A · · Score: 1

      but, the #1 reason linux sin't going mainstream anytime soon is the community. its greatest strength is also its greatest weakness.

      its been said before, and i'll say it again, until my mom and dad can run linux without calling me every day, and they can just install something or simply copy and paste from one app in X to another, linux is just gonna stay a hobbist/server OS.


      There isn't a Linux community, there is a mess of Linux communities, with different interests and priorities. Whenever there is sufficient interest in Linux on the Desktop, Linux on the Desktop will have arrived. To some extent, with Lindows, it has arrived. With Sun's Desktop, with a bit of pushing and prodding, Linux on the Desktop will definitely have arrived.

      I'd say that servers are mainstream, probably more mainstream than desktops. Servers tend to matter. Desktops, as long as they are suffient to the tasks, do not matter.

    10. Re:it still isnt gonna go mainstream by isorox · · Score: 1

      Who cares about the home market? It's corporations, with a narrow hardware and software specification, where users have hardly any control over their machine, where Linux will make inroads. No problems installing apps, no problems with hardware compatibility, as long as the software is there Linux is viable.

    11. Re:it still isnt gonna go mainstream by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, and yes. I know... IHBT.

    12. Re:it still isnt gonna go mainstream by wfberg · · Score: 1

      Yes, and yes. I know... IHBT.

      Exceed is not free. Multiple desktops on XP are free though, it's a powertoy thingamajig, and nvidia cards come with their own, slightly better working multi-desktop utility as well.

      --
      SCO employee? Check out the bounty
    13. Re:it still isnt gonna go mainstream by Malcontent · · Score: 1

      "care to bet some money on this? i work with alot of smart companies, and they arn't going to, why have a mix when it isnt needed? its a support nightmare for one, and the cost of paying someone to support linux is alot higher than windows."

      It's already happening. You can eliminate windows desktops with by using linux and rdesktop + terminal server. The users can use mozilla and open office from linux and use rdesktop for any windows software they may have to run. You can even have the desktops run at thin clients or knoppix type CDs.

      --

      War is necrophilia.

    14. Re:it still isnt gonna go mainstream by davegust · · Score: 1

      In every corporation I've done IT for, the users have had far too much control for anything but Windows (one exteme) or completely dumb terminals (the other) to succeed. Between screen savers, Real Player, cool little utilities from home, special mice, personal laptops, AOL, and every other G*d D*mn thing you can think of, each desktop requires intelligent maintenance and security solutions.

      Everyone has joined the Windows world at home, and they're smart enough to partially administer their own boxes at work. Copy exact workstations went out with suits and ties at the places I've worked.

    15. Re:it still isnt gonna go mainstream by isorox · · Score: 1

      Well once you start working for a division with 5,000 users over 1,000 machines from the deserts of Afganistan to Nairobi via Sydney, Brenus Aries, Moscow and Manchester, and try to keep them all working with a first-line support staff of 6, then you'll appreciate that why if a user has a problem, they need to have a specified system. Don't have that system? If you're lucky we'll backup your data drive before redesktopping. Non-leased machines (the lease includes a support fee) dont get any support unless theres not much on, we're in a good mood, or the journalist is *really* nice (LOL!). Real is part of the standard desktop, and the desktop has a lot of drivers to work with a lot of software, it's all been checked by the desktop team before deployment though.

      The "smart" users that "can administer" there own boxes are the worst, fortunatly thats why we have 2 cd's and 20 minutes to redesktop a machine. User wants some software? Simply add them to the list and next time they log in it will be installed (not nice over a sat phone of course)

      And the only time you wear a suit or tie is if you are top managment or on air in a studio.

    16. Re:it still isnt gonna go mainstream by ChefBork · · Score: 1
      its been said before, and i'll say it again, until my mom and dad can run linux without calling me every day...

      My parents have a new XP box and they call me constantly to help set things up for them. What's the difference?

  26. US Gov't Agency Linux Desktops? by DynaSoar · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Terpstra says 'I predict that during 2004 at least one significant USA government body will adopt Linux on the desktop.'

    Not with Homeland Security showing how absolutely retarded they insist on being and going with WinXX. This is clearly not a security based decision, and any "significant" attempt to go counter to it will bring the HLS pseudo-spooks down by the thousands to protect their investments ^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H The Nation.

    michael sez: 'Depending on how you define "significant", this has already occurred.'

    Pray tell, what agency might that be? In my years inside the beltway (up through less than 2 months ago) I didn't see any with any appreciable (let's define that as, say 5%) Linux desktops on desks. All I've seen, besides individuals setting up their own for number crunching, is piles and miles of MS systems "supported" by clue-deficient federal employess constantly in fear of replacement by contractors for extremely good reasons. Even NIH was mostly MS on the desks, and what wasn't was Macs. The necessarily more powerful research machines we used were often *nix, but these were not desktop machines.

    Offering a secured version of Linux for D/L is not the same as an agency's internal deployment of same.

    --
    "I may be synthetic, but I'm not stupid." -- Bishop 341-B
    1. Re:US Gov't Agency Linux Desktops? by dbIII · · Score: 1
      Not with Homeland Security showing how absolutely retarded they insist on being and going with WinXX
      It's just another bunch useing the terrorism issue for their own ends. I can see them saying, that they need a good old american owned OS, while linux is controlled by a Fin, and everyone knows that Finland is on the same side of the Atlantic as known terrorists! There's just no reasoning with some people that push their own agenda as hard as they can.

      piles and miles of MS systems
      There is actually a reason why these things persist - retraining costs. Companies spent a fortune on crap courses on how to use MS Word run by people who barely knew the application (how many others wee told they were "power users" because they put images in their word documents?). Now schools have taken up the burden of this training. Linux is different, so some people will need training to use it, whether they ever see a command line or not they will be using different applications to what they are used to. Facories and warehouses have all kinds of odd user interfaces to their software which people have to get used to - and you can see the unix roots in a lot of that software. In the office you still see people use Wordperfect for DOS occasionally - people keep using what they have been trained to use, and resist doing anything new without going to some sort of course. Personally I don't care, other people can deal with office politics - which is really what it will be about. If we can keep the microsoft based machines being used as typewriters from interfering too much with other systems, then that is all that matters. The problem is viruses and spyware on those typewriters does affect other systems.
  27. Two things that need to happen in 2004 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    First, the linux installer must be as easy as windows. Looking at the beginnings of the new Debian Installer, that is a definite possibility. They have the autodetection and the automation down. With a spiffy interface and maybe Synaptic in the installer that's about as easy as it gets.

    Second the linux desktop has to surpass Windows XP in usability. They have the time to get this done. Longhorn is a long way off. Personally it would be nice to see some INNOVATIVE navigation ideas thrown around in the mainstream such as unified hotkey standards, radial pie menu in the window manager, and/or mouse gestures for launching commonly used applications (gesture down to open web browser, up for email) and common commands (down+left for copy, up+left for paste, for example). Maybe even mousewheel based window navigation instead of alt+tab.

    Granted these things can be done now but not without some footwork. These need to be integrated into a "desktop" linux distribution like Lindows, Lycoris, or XandrOS. Somebody just needs to put them together.

    Frequent tasks should require less keystrokes or mouse movement to accomplish. It isn't enough for it to be intuitive on where you should start to look for the document that tells you which clock does what. Less applications. Faster access and faster results.

    1. Re:Two things that need to happen in 2004 by October_30th · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Personally it would be nice to see some INNOVATIVE navigation ideas

      Unfortunately there's very little you can innovate with unless you're the one dominating the desktop markets.

      A novel navigation idea in Windows: People get annoyed but get over it because they have to.

      A novel navigation idea in Linux: People get annoyed ("it doesn't work the same way I'm used to") and give up.

      --
      The owls are not what they seem
    2. Re:Two things that need to happen in 2004 by rsilvergun · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Um, why does the installer need to be easy? Most people get there computers from an OEM (Dell, Gateway, etc), who'll just include a restore disk anyways. There's this notion Linux will gain lots of market share with a grass roots campaign of installs on old Windows hardware. I don't see that happening (hasn't worked with Mozilla, and that's a much easier switch). On the other hand, MS is gonna burn a lot of bridges with Longhorn, and the OEMs might finally start looking for alternatives.

      As for usability, Microsoft built it's market share on 'good enough', no reason Linux shouldn't. Of course since Linux doesn't have to worry about the tech support nightmare of supporting all those innovative features there's no reason they can't be available. I just don't think it'd be a good idea for them to be added to say, Redhat Enterprise.

      I want linux to succeed with the masses, not for the sake of ideals, but because I want to keep using it. I rely on cheap, compatible commodity hardware to run Linux. Microsoft has hinted they want that market to go away now. That worries me. If there are millions of Linux users like me, I won't have to worry. So I say take the pragmatic approach to replacing Microsoft Windows (and let's not kid ourselfs, with 95% market share there's no one else to replace). Give users the familiar MS-Windows copy they want, and I'll keep my KDE desktop skinned to look like MacOSX.

      --
      Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    3. Re:Two things that need to happen in 2004 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The installer has to be easy so there are more people who are able to install Linux. Isn't that obvious?

      Just because you know where a hard drive goes in a white box doesn't mean you know how to adequately configure and install Linux.

      Configuring Linux needs to be foolproof. Moronic. Below fry-cook status. Then you'll have Mexican immigrants setting up Linux boxes on discarded computers and reselling them to their neighbors. The guy that stocks shelves will be employed by the local computer shop to instead install Linux on boxes he sells to the masses.

      If it's that easy people will start to sell and promote the platform. It's pretty damn obvious why the installation must be easy. It's so Linux is inundated with MSCE, A+ Certified sub-educated techies that make a career on clicking OK and updating a few drivers.

    4. Re:Two things that need to happen in 2004 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      a lot of people seem to be advocating easy installions for linux. "we need to make it point-click, auto install icons to desktop, etc." but is that what you want? personally, i'd much much much prefer using a source-tarball and doing a clean compile with the options i choose in command line. some people (like me) feel a need to have complete control over their computer. There shouldn't be a single app or binary on their computer that they don't know about.

      also, as linux becomes more standard on the desktop, spam companies, adware & spyware makers, and virus creators are going to start building stuff towards the *nix environment. Fact is, there are some smart people creating that spyware everyone is getting infected with on windows. They will figure ways to trick the average linux desktop user.

      Also, do you even want everyone on linux? Many people in the linux community are quite arrogant and feel that just because they have a *nix box running, they are somehow better than every windows user on the planet. i won't deny that i've acted like that. quite frankly, my slackware box is somewhat my pride. i personally am not sure i want linux to be the standard. Not to mention that one day, I might want a job as a sysadmin. I might want to be that one guy on the IT team that knows how to set up that good ol' *nix server and get the entire system secure... oh, and get a paycheck for it. If linux becomes too easy to set up and install, we might see that any moron will be able to set up a server and we will have put ourselves in the position of windows servers: people will become cocky and use out of the box settings and we will become more and more insecure.

      so um.. ya. just my two cents.

    5. Re:Two things that need to happen in 2004 by spitzak · · Score: 1
      Okay, here is an actual, concrete, "desktop navigation" idea that I really want to see implemented. It will not "confuse users", it is simple, and it will make use of multiple programs on the desktop 100 times easier than it is on Windows:

      STOP RAISING WINDOWS ON CLICK!!!!

      The ONLY way the window manager should change the order of windows is if the user clicks the title bar of the window, or if they click the title bar (and thus raise) a "parent" (transient-for) window. Alt-tab style navigation and other ways of navigating to the window can also raise it.

      Do NOT raise the window when the user clicks inside the contents. Do not raise it when the user resizes it. Do not raise a window because a "child" (the one with transient-for set) is raised (this one is a bug in virtually every window manager that exists today).

      Anybody who says "but that will be inconsistent and confuse the poor user" has to get through their thick heads: the application can raise itself in response to a click. In fact X toolkits already do this. All I want is the ability for an application to intuitively decide if the user is not switching their entire focus to the application and not raise it. The current Windows and Linux design do not allow this behavior.

      This is vital so that the gui is usable for more than one document that takes more than half the screen, where you have to overlap the windows. Right now this is useless and forces applications (on both Linux and Windows) to use "tiled" arrangments with great amounts of unfriendly scrolling and scaling of the displayed data. Actual tiled window systems were soundly rejected (the original Andrew did this, and Microsoft tried it with their first versions of Windows), so the fact that people are using "tiled" inside applications should be a sign that something is wrong.

      The latest window managers for Linux seem to have completely lost the ability to act this way (at best it makes it so you cannot raise a window at all, even by clicking the title bar). Every single window manager since CDE has had the bug where raising a child window also raises it's parent. PLEASE fix this!

      And don't say "use your own window manager". That is not going to help when the majority are using a broken one.

  28. Nah, Education is the Future by Qweezle · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Lower-education will be the short-term future of linux in my opinion. It's already hit the corporate server level, the governmental level, the ranks of high education, now what?

    I've suggested to our [poor] school district that we should switch to Linux, using the old hardware we have, and they liked they idea but said it would be "too hard to implement". Oh, come now. I think that any kid could easily circumnavigate a Linux interface, especially if it is an easy one, like Mandrake 9.x or Lycoris! I sure would want my kids to learn Linux, and this is a cheap(free, actually) solution for those school districts that just can't seem to raise any money. In addition, get a good IT guy at the helm, fire all the low-waged IT guys who don't know what they're doing, and get that network running smoother than ever with Linux!

    It's a SHOCK to me that school districts haven't at least started putting in an "Operating Systems 101" class in high school for everyone to learn about alternative OS's. Linux, Macintosh OS, Solaris, FreeBSD, UNIX, just imagine how much that would open up the minds of those kids!

    1. Re:Nah, Education is the Future by cscx · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Here's a reality check:

      *All* new Linux distributions (e.g., the Mandrake 9.x or Lycoris) will run like shit on shit hardware. There seems to be some sort of misconception in the Linux community (psychologists call this "denial") in which its consistuents seem to think that (graphical) Linux will always run good on crap hardware -- in fact, it will run 908345 times faster than Windows!

      Wrong.

      At my university, I'm forced to use a Linux lab for one of my classes... unfortunately this lab is not blessed with brand new computers like the other 99.98% of computer labs on campus. No, these machines are Pentium II-400s with 128 MB of RAM. They are running RedHat 9 (kernel 2.4.20). Not too shabby, eh?

      That is, till you log in to GNOME or KDE. It's slowdown city. We are talking I-can-sometimes-watch-windows-paint-across-the-scr een slow. Try and start up Mozilla? It takes about 20 seconds. No joke. Cripes, even gnome-terminal or Konsole take at least 5 seconds to start up. And in the swap meantime swap all the swap swap machine is doing is swapping to disk. Swap swap swap (get the point? ;) This is unacceptable. Linux needs a fast, NON-resource hogging, non-skinnable desktop that doesn't lack in the functionality area. Think iceWM, except not as half-assed when it comes to features.

      Many Linux zealots like to talk about Windows bloat -- meanwhile there is precipitously more bloat in Linux software! (Kind of like that MS Office == bloat FUD that you see around here a lot. Just look at OpenOffice.org -- HAH!)

      So what options does this leave you with? You obviously can't use KDE or GNOME on old hardware. Use twm? Yeah, right.

      Win NT 4.0 still comes in handy for situations like these. I had to do an install recently where a machine had to be available 24/7 yet run on crap hardware. NT4 has an extremely fast, functional desktop, and it will easily install in It's a SHOCK to me that school districts haven't at least started putting in an "Operating Systems 101" class in high school for everyone to learn about alternative OS's. Linux, Macintosh OS, Solaris, FreeBSD, UNIX, just imagine how much that would open up the minds of those kids!

      Well, here is some more shocking information: 98% of high school students don't give a rat's ass. Those that do already know. And there is a good number of school districts that have standardized on MacOS. Why do high schoolers have to learn about Solaris, etc? We're talking about people that have trouble grasping the concept of MS Word, so I think appreciating the benefits of Korn Shell can be left for some other time.

      Unfortunately you seem to be a bit short sighted (evidenced by your association of "IT guys who don't know what they're doing" with "not using Linux") so this suggestion may be of limited use to you...

    2. Re:Nah, Education is the Future by cscx · · Score: 1

      Okay, that sentence that ends abruptly should read "easily in less than 200 MB."

      Apparently the "Plain Old Text" option really means "Eat anything that resembles HTML"

    3. Re:Nah, Education is the Future by RoLi · · Score: 1
      I used KDE/Linux on a Powerbook G3 400MHz with 196MB RAM and it was certainly usable when turning off the eye-candy.

      And that was KDE3.0, there are many optimizations till that time, you should really try KDE3.1.4 or even better KDE3.2alpha (despite being an Alpha release it was stable on my installation) they contain lots of speed improvements.

      But of course a little more RAM couldn't hurt either... (But KDE does run fine on 400MHz)

    4. Re:Nah, Education is the Future by arvindn · · Score: 1
      Some tips:
      • If you have less memory try xfce. It has plenty of eye candy and is also memory and CPU efficient. But if you must stick with gnome/kde:
      • In redhat 9, go to preferences->more preferences->session->current programs. Remove all the memory hogs (particularly nautilus) except gnome-panel and metacity. You'll save a lot of memory.
      • In preferences->themes change the theme to "Simple". Again, big win in terms of both CPU and memory.
      • Remove lots of unnecessary servers/daemons that start while booting.
      • There are quite a few minor tweaks you can make to various applications to improve performance. eg: in gdm, avoid using the background picture.
      • Choose your apps wisely, like firebird instead of mozilla etc.
      Cumulatively it should make a major difference.

      OOo is certainly a huge resource hog. But it has improved a lot in 1.1 and they plan to decrease startup time greatly.

    5. Re:Nah, Education is the Future by binary+paladin · · Score: 5, Informative

      You state using "NT 4.0" for those situations. Well... using the latest KDE or GNOME is hardly a fair comparison. They're in the ring with XP, not NT 4.0.

      XFce runs GREAT on older hardware without sacrificing a lot of nice bits of modern stuff (anti-aliased fonts, gtk2, etc). I just dropped Vector Linux on an old Celeron 366 with 64 megs (it's an old HP) and added XFce4 and it works like a charm.

    6. Re:Nah, Education is the Future by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All distros? Try Slackware. Installs with 16 megs RAM. Can Windows XP do that?

      Your other points are mostly ill-informed; choose software relevant for your hardware. I run AbiWord, Dillo, GIMP and others on a P100 laptop with no troubles.

      You just don't really understand this, but that's fair enough.

    7. Re:Nah, Education is the Future by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For a large part of this year, my primary desktop computer was a pII 300 with 64 megs of ram, running linux. KDE and gnome are both somewhat heavy; nautilus is unbearable. I use blackbox; if you don't like it, there are dozens, literally, of other window managers. There are many console programs; tried aterm? xterm? eterm? They may be lighter than konsole.
      OpenOffice is extremely heavy; running it on that hardware would be painful. There's abiword for simple documents, and I like TeX; at a university, that is likely to be installed if there is a science/math department. Otherwise, there's always koffice.
      Mozilla is nearly unusable on that config; when you need features, Mozilla-Firebird works pretty well; when you don't, links-gui, opera, dillo, etc are all options.
      Graphical linux runs perfectly well on old hardware. KDE and Gnome don't, for old enough values of 'old'.
      You're entirely vague on what functionality you want, other than "non-skinnable", light, and full-featured while not being half assed...
      What do you -want- in a desktop, exactly?
      Microsoft office and Windows are both bloatware. So is some, but not all, linux software. A pretty comfortable setup can be made on an old computer; a new computer can be made to crawl. It all depends on the programs being run.

    8. Re:Nah, Education is the Future by Daengbo · · Score: 1, Interesting

      This is the reason that many K12 institutions in the northwest are turning to K12LTSP. (Re)use the old hardware, spend some of the new budget on a few servers, hook up the network, and you're finished.
      As for the children's response in my school -- there is virtually none. Our children pick up the mouse, ask us where to go, and no other training is often necessary. They know precious little about computers, anyway. Eventually, we hear them bragging to their friends about being able to choose which desktop they want to use.

    9. Re:Nah, Education is the Future by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Old? That's my server!

    10. Re:Nah, Education is the Future by saintlupus · · Score: 1

      That is, till you log in to GNOME or KDE. It's slowdown city. We are talking I-can-sometimes-watch-windows-paint-across-the-scr een slow.

      Amen. The P4s in the CS lab at my college are running Red Hat 9, and the default setup runs like absolute shit. I had to set up my .xinitrc to run twm instead to get any sort of speed out of the machine.

      It's pretty sad when my four year old Powerbook with Yellow Dog Linux and WindowMaker is subjectively faster than a brand new workstation.

      --saint

    11. Re:Nah, Education is the Future by paskie · · Score: 1

      Interesting. I've installed Mandrake 9.1 on retailed OmniBook w/ some PII running at 300MHz and with 64M RAM (!), just out of interest how slow will KDE3 be there. The thing is, it is actually quite fast. Certainly a difference to Athlon 2.4GHz w/ 512M RAM, but it is definitively usable, and overally works smoothly. Even with the translucent menus etc (I didn't feel any noticeable slowdown).

      Of course, I weren't even thinking about OpenOffice or Mozilla at all. Also, Gnome was unusably slow, but KDE3 just worked, worked smoothly and I had no reasons to complain.

      Well, it's true that I don't mind konsole taking three or four seconds to start up, and I'm willing to wait 60 to 90 seconds to have the system booted up. (Then having it live ever after, or at least for n days until I take it to some longer travel and the batteries run out.)

      --
      It's not the fall that kills you. It's the sudden stop at the end. -Douglas Adams
    12. Re:Nah, Education is the Future by cscx · · Score: 1

      Actually I use GNOME as I've found it faster than KDE3 on the machines I mentioned. Unfortunately they are the only available Window Managers available from the login screen (haven't tried installing my own into my home directory though).

      One thing that I now suspect, as someone else mentioned it, is NFS. Everything in that lab runs NFS; our home directories as well as mounted binaries. This could be part of the problem.

    13. Re:Nah, Education is the Future by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You could not get a simpler install than K12LTSP.

      It sits on Red Hat, you just install it (taking the default options is very simple if you are a complete newbie), plug in diskless terminals, run the appropriate floppy based on your network card and everthing just works...idiot-proof.

    14. Re:Nah, Education is the Future by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes! I agree! XFce even works nice on a P1 200/32. It just starts up a bit slow, but wow, is it fast and user friendly!

    15. Re:Nah, Education is the Future by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Use a decent server like 1GHz memory around 500MB and run 10 thin clients using k12ltsp.org

      pentium 1 with 32mb ram is more than enough for the clients.

      Dont run kde or gnome on below 1GHz machine.

      LTSP IS the future of large scale, easy to use,fast to boot,manage,less power hungry computing.

      Use LTSP and have a smile on your lips and brain for the rest of your life

  29. MOD PARENT UP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    mod parent up +86 Merciful
    and goatse be damned

  30. In 2004 when I say... by compass46 · · Score: 5, Funny

    I have FreeBSD instead, less people will think it's a nasty venereal disease.

    1. Re:In 2004 when I say... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dude, instead you have a terminal disease. Try and make the most out of the days you have left.

    2. Re:In 2004 when I say... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      It is now official - Netcraft has confirmed: *BSD is dying

      Yet another crippling bombshell hit the beleaguered *BSD community when recently IDC confirmed that *BSD accounts for less than a fraction of 1 percent of all servers. Coming on the heels of the latest Netcraft survey which plainly states that *BSD has lost more market share, this news serves to reinforce what we've known all along. *BSD is collapsing in complete disarray, as fittingly exemplified by failing dead last in the recent Sys Admin comprehensive networking test.

      You don't need to be a Kreskin to predict *BSD's future. The hand writing is on the wall: *BSD faces a bleak future. In fact there won't be any future at all for *BSD because *BSD is dying. Things are looking very bad for *BSD. As many of us are already aware, *BSD continues to lose market share. Red ink flows like a river of blood. FreeBSD is the most endangered of them all, having lost 93% of its core developers. The sudden and unpleasant departures of long time FreeBSD developers Jordan Hubbard and Mike Smith only serve to underscore the point more clearly. There can no longer be any doubt: FreeBSD is dying.

      Let's keep to the facts and look at the numbers.

      OpenBSD leader Theo states that there are 7000 users of OpenBSD. How many users of NetBSD are there? Let's see. The number of OpenBSD versus NetBSD posts on Usenet is roughly in ratio of 5 to 1. Therefore there are about 7000/5 = 1400 NetBSD users. BSD/OS posts on Usenet are about half of the volume of NetBSD posts. Therefore there are about 700 users of BSD/OS. A recent article put FreeBSD at about 80 percent of the *BSD market. Therefore there are (7000+1400+700)*4 = 36400 FreeBSD users. This is consistent with the number of FreeBSD Usenet posts.

      Due to the troubles of Walnut Creek, abysmal sales and so on, FreeBSD went out of business and was taken over by BSDI who sell another troubled OS. Now BSDI is also dead, its corpse turned over to yet another charnel house.

      All major surveys show that *BSD has steadily declined in market share. *BSD is very sick and its long term survival prospects are very dim. If *BSD is to survive at all it will be among OS hobbyist dabblers. *BSD continues to decay. Nothing short of a miracle could save it at this point in time. For all practical purposes, *BSD is dead.

      Fact: *BSD is dead

    3. Re:In 2004 when I say... by TeknoHog · · Score: 1

      Just explain you're a Slashdot reader. There's no way a /.er can ever get a STD, so you'll be safe.. except for the obvious fact that BSD is dying. ;-)

      --
      Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
  31. Do you know how budgets are appropriated ? by zymano · · Score: 1

    Microsoft lobbies and donates to congressman so they may take exception to your ideas. Do you believe congressman care about budgets or campaign donations ?

  32. The Desktop Is Not Important Right Now by nate+nice · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Why are people so concerned with Linux on the desktop? Linux advocates should be spending all resources on making sure Linux keeps and expands it's adoption with the server. The desktop war is one that is long and hard and really Linux is not in a place right now where it can seriously compete with desktop offerings such as Windows or Mac OS X. What Linux does have going for it however is its fabulous server abilities. However great these abilities are, it cannot be overlooked Microsoft will keep spending more and more money to market their server options. Linux doesn't need some "validation" by being used as a desktop. Linux needs to keep improving as a server to make sure it stays superior to other server options. In time, the desktop may come. Until then, at least at this point, it is not something that is not too important. I only hope Linux keeps its focus and plays to its strengths.

    --
    "If you are a dreamer, a wisher, a liar, A hope-er, a pray-er, a magic bean buyer ..."
    1. Re:The Desktop Is Not Important Right Now by Micah · · Score: 2, Insightful
      There are a lot of reasons to support Linux on the desktop.

      • Moral reasons -- for those who think all software must be Free, period
      • Lower cost computers for everyone! (Also think schools and governments ... lower taxes!)
      • You believe Microsoft has too much power over the computer industry. In this case, a competitor needs to attack it on all fronts.
      • You prefer the UNIX way of doing things
      • Competition would be possible between consumer-oriented distributors. Currently, Microsoft competes with no one. When Linux is common on the desktop, there should be fierce competition which will help everyone get a better system.
      • No stupid e-mail viruses. Security is much easier in a proper UNIX environment.
      • Level playing field for application developers. No more will folks like WordPerfect have to compete with Microsoft, where Microsoft knows a lot more about the OS than WordPerfect does.
      • As more people use Linux on the desktop, those of us who have decided to use it no matter what will find more application software for sale and more hardware supported.
    2. Re:The Desktop Is Not Important Right Now by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      I hardly think there's some linux "pie" where part of the resources are dedicated to servers and the other part is dedicated to desktop. If the linux community cannot motivate both parties simultaneously then that is its most serious flaw. The desktop and server users are basically separate anyway. You don't see a kernel hacker stop hacking and say, "Ok, now I've got to work on Gnome widges for an hour." No, he says, "Screw them. Gnome sucks. I just use fluxbox." That's how Linux works, if you want something done you tell everybody and hope somebody comes along that is capable of doing it and has the free time and generosity to do it. Given enough people this usually happens. Linux needs to keep finding jobs for people that haven't found jobs yet. It needs to keep its developers busy thinking up new ideas and new directions for them to work on.

      That is how innovation works.

    3. Re:The Desktop Is Not Important Right Now by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lower cost computers for everyone! (Also think schools and governments ... lower taxes!)

      With the exception of Congress and Presidents, the government does not lower taxes (and when the US Government does, they do no lower spending, they just merely go into defecit spending).

      Schools are perhaps the worst. They raise taxes to build new schools, while at the same time hiring more administrators or refurnishing their own offices. Spending money is something that schools rather enjoy.

    4. Re:The Desktop Is Not Important Right Now by fzammett · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You've just effectively illustrated why it's unlikely Linux will EVER dethrone Windows on the desktop (yes, I said it!)... To use a basketball analogy...

      If I have Larry Bird's championship Celtics teams on one side, and on the other I request anyone that wants to play show up... Even if Kobe Bryant, Tim Duncan, Jason Kidd, Karl Malone and Tray McGrady show up, chances are that Bird's team is going to win because they are the well-organized, focused and experienced TEAM. They know how to work together effectively and they have leadership who are focusing them on one or two definitive goals. The pick-up team has the better talent almost everyone would agree, and they all love to play, but if your not focused and a real team, your not going to win.

      What Linux needs to have a chance is one or two guys that can rally the troops and drive the desktop effort in a huge way. The community needs to focus on Microsoft 100% to dethrone them. Hoping that someone talented enough comes along that can write pieces to compete with Windows XP isn't going to work. Someone needs to find those people, motivate them and get the most of their talents. Microsoft does this day in and day out. That's why they are on top as far as the desktop goes, and why they will almost certainly remain there for many years to come.

      --
      If a pion (n-) collides with a proton in the woods & noone is there to hear it, does lamdba decay into the source pa
    5. Re:The Desktop Is Not Important Right Now by NegativeK · · Score: 1

      No stupid e-mail viruses. Security is much easier in a proper UNIX environment.

      Er, pardon? I'm currently reading A Short Course On Computer Viruses by Cohen (the father of mathematical viral theory), and I'd have to beg to differ. He's proven _mathematically_ that you can't absolutely get away from viruses without _severely_ limiting the system. Period. Unixes are vulnerable, DOS is vulnerable, Windows is vulnerable, even Bell-LaPadula-based systems. So, as you can guess, Linux will be vulnerable to viruses as well.. But regardless of all that, e-mail viruses can infect regardless of the OS (assuming it's still usable.) If less than intelligent people continue to execute attachments, then e-mail viruses will spread. E-mail viruses are an end-user issue, not an OS issue.

      P.S.: While this book is almost ten years old, I'd sincerely suggest that anyone interested in viral theory check it out. As an example of his work, you can see one of his 1984 papers on viruses here.

      --
      This statement is false.
    6. Re:The Desktop Is Not Important Right Now by Jason+Earl · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Of course, in real life there isn't an arbitrary 5 man limit to your team. The championship Celtics were good, but they couldn't take on the best of the NBA greats all at the same time. Heck, they couldn't even compete with high school players if the opposing team had 500 guys on the court at the same time.

      Microsoft has gotten to the point where they are competing with a huge percentage of their Windows developers. What's worse, if you come up with software that works well on Windows and starts making you a profit there is a good chance that Microsoft will copy your functionality and drive you out of business. This is why the commercial software industry is shifting towards Linux, that's the only way that they could possibly compete in the long run.

      No matter how many sharp people Microsoft has working for them, if they turn this into a Microsoft-against-the-world battle they will lose.

      Linux will win the desktop war in the same way that it is winning the server war. The key is to offer a product that is "good enough" at a lower price. Linux doesn't have to be better than Windows, it simply has to be "good enough."

    7. Re:The Desktop Is Not Important Right Now by ducomputergeek · · Score: 1

      Moral reasons -- for those who think all software must be Free, period

      Econ lesson #1: There is no free lunch. I don't mind paying for software is its quality. If its free, just a bonus.

      Lower cost computers for everyone! (Also think schools and governments ... lower taxes!)

      Lowercost software ware, maybe, but as of now it takes a hefty service contract or inhouse IT staff (which costs bucks) to run Linux. TCO is the key. For many smaller shops, Apple will be cheaper because they can find programs they are used to, like Quickbooks, and still have the stablity of Unix without knowing it. Linux is not Grandma friendly yet. Also, the government will just those tax dollars saved and spend it somewhere else. Frankly no amount of computers are going to help kids that can't read and write. We really need to fix that in US public schools before worrying about whether they run Windows, Mac, or Linux.

      You believe Microsoft has too much power over the computer industry. In this case, a competitor needs to attack it on all fronts.

      Well, maybe, or maybe because they have crappy product. Although I have been pleased with 2000pro and XP from a stablity and usage standpoint, just not from the "worm of the week" side. Still, that's why I have an iBook at home and a PowerBook at work.

      You prefer the UNIX way of doing things

      Okay, I do like the Unix way. That's why I prefer FreeBSD since its actually Unix, not Unix-like. I know that's a trolling comment, but cvsup and the ports tree makes my job admining servers much easier

      Competition would be possible between consumer-oriented distributors. Currently, Microsoft competes with no one. When Linux is common on the desktop, there should be fierce competition which will help everyone get a better system.

      To a point. However, soon one or two giants will emerge...oh wait, RH and SuSE, and RH's out of the Desktop Market for now and SuSE is TBD.

      No stupid e-mail viruses. Security is much easier in a proper UNIX environment.

      Repeat after me: "People are stupid". Right now most Email viruses are targeted at M$ becuase its easier to find ill maintained boxes on everything from coporate networks to home users on Cable or DSL. I am sure if more people were trying, there would be viruses for Linux, actually there are, just not very many. Also, right now Linux users tend to be more savvy and know how to run a box. As joe six-=pack gets Linux, they aren't going to know how to secure it just as they don't Windows now. Most Security problems are human related, not code.

      Level playing field for application developers. No more will folks like WordPerfect have to compete with Microsoft, where Microsoft knows a lot more about the OS than WordPerfect does.

      Maybe. Again, I don't mind paying for good software. Supprisingly I use MS office V.x for Mac and love it compared to its Windows cousins. I don't mind paying for good software, and its actually a good program.

      As more people use Linux on the desktop, those of us who have decided to use it no matter what will find more application software for sale and more hardware supported.

      Chicken or the Egg? Software vendors often won't work on Linux apps unless there is a market there. The market won't develop unless the applications are there. This is one reason why I chose OS X for our office over Linux. We have the best of OSS land and commerical software support. Remeber, Apple damn near lost Macromedia and Adobe when they switched to OS X.

      The one industry I have seen this happen as been SFX studios. I worked as a system admin at good sized architecture and Graphics design firm that was using special software written for ALPHA processors and True-6

      --
      "The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money" - Thatcher.
    8. Re:The Desktop Is Not Important Right Now by Reteo+Varala · · Score: 1

      In marketing, the point is to sell your ideas to the people who we're trying to convince that this is better... and guess what, they're people who have their own problems, and can't spare time to deal with learning computers or the industry.

      > Moral reasons -- for those who think all software must be Free, period

      That would associate Free Software/Open Source with Communism... and the Soviet Union demonstrated how well that worked.

      > Lower cost computers for everyone! (Also think schools and governments ... lower taxes!)

      A far more acceptable reason, and a selling point that could clinch the sale.

      > You believe Microsoft has too much power over the computer industry. In this case, a competitor needs to attack it on all fronts.

      Too many people are more worried about drugs, wars, and politics of a more immediate importance. Industry pundits would be interested, but the average consumer would not, as long as Microsoft's products solves their immediate problems.

      > You prefer the UNIX way of doing things

      That, unfortunately, is a fringe argument, only useful to those who are not indoctrinated into the Windows culture by virtue of MS's much better marketing and sales strategies.

      > Competition would be possible between consumer-oriented distributors. Currently, Microsoft competes with no one. When Linux is common on the desktop, there should be fierce competition which will help everyone get a better system.

      Repeat that after me... Microsoft competes with no one. What does this mean? It means that MS can guarantee that it's going to be there, since nobody's gonna put them out of business. To the person on the run, that means MS is a safe choice.

      > No stupid e-mail viruses. Security is much easier in a proper UNIX environment.

      Selling Point #2, and quite effective as of late. As a software salesman, I found that argument helps in the case of those people who want to browse the web/mail, or to provide public terminals... no fear of having to maintain them.

      > Level playing field for application developers. No more will folks like WordPerfect have to compete with Microsoft, where Microsoft knows a lot more about the OS than WordPerfect does.

      Potential selling point, or it could be an excuse for the customer to stay with MS... related to the "Safer" argument above.

      > As more people use Linux on the desktop, those of us who have decided to use it no matter what will find more application software for sale and more hardware supported.

      This is speculative. It could eventually be a selling point, but right now, it's patently false, where the consumer is concerned... after all, there's shelves all over full of MS software, maybe one whole shelf of Linux software.

      ***

      Here's my own take on the situation: What does one need to do to install software on a Windows PC?

      Insert the CD, and just follow the instructions that pop up.

      This is the key to winning over the common consumer... they want handholding all the way, they want software to be available in a way they can hold it, insert it, and be told what to do (usually as easy as clicking "Next"), and finally, see it working once they've done it.

      This is because they have more important things to do with their time than learn computers... and they're willing to pay MS for the benefit.

      Most people buy computers to use their benefits, not the computers themselves.

  33. Re:Linux ego by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    wtf this is not a troll its insight. I'm the last one to say slashdot is a bunch of fanboys but really....

  34. Linux in 2004 by October_30th · · Score: 1

    In 2004 Linux will be awesome - awesome to the max!

    --
    The owls are not what they seem
    1. Re:Linux in 2004 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All Right cowabunga dude, totally awsome... yeah like.. to the max!!!

  35. Markets rocked, Linux surges, Microsoft crashes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    What happens in 2004?

    The financial markets are rocked when the street and the public start coming to a more accurate realization of the size of the installed base of linux, the accelerated pace of installations, and the realization that microsoft has gone ex-growth, and should now be treated as a company with a shrinking market, instead of a growing market.

    The information worker segment, which includes the Office business, posted a slight drop in profits, to $1.59 billion from $1.66 billion, despite the fact that sales inched up to $2.29 billion from $2.27 billion a year ago.


    The above paragraph is noteworthy because it is just starting to account for the massive discounting going on, such as the student/teacher edition of Microsoft Office (the most profitable division/product) being sold for $149, not checking if student/teachers are the ones buying (wink, wink), multiple copies being allowed, etc. Sales are up, and profits are down. What does that tell the econ 101 crowd out there? Check the top link for more background.

    The hit on microsoft takes other proprietary software companies with it, hitting their stock prices as well. The hit microsoft stock takes is the largest hit for a Dow stock ever, and one of the largest for the S&P 500 in history.

    Microsoft, forced to respond to its more realistic stock price, boosts the dividend payout to a record level, and is forced to make a large one-time payout to shareholders.

    Thanks to better numbers on linux market share, to desktop wins coming in a seemingly endless stream, and to the hit microsoft stock takes, there is ever increasing focus, attention, and dollars being spent on linux development. More money is spent on linux in 2004 than in any prior year. Linux server sales, as a percentage of units shipped, surpasses both unix and windows.

    A lowlife and a ceo throw in the towel, and move to Massachusetts to legitimize the relationship.
  36. What Linux needs is Microsoft. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is the cruel truth, and you know it.

    Imagine the intuitive GUI, the easy driver updating, applications that install with no problem, DirectX, no lack of PROFESSIONALLY WRITTEN programs to choose from, this is the Microsoft Way. Even Guy Kawasaki would agree. One Distro To Rule Them All.

    May that distro be MS-Linux.

  37. Always "a couple years away" by Micah · · Score: 5, Interesting

    It seems like Linux on the desktop for the masses is always a couple years away.

    In 1998, I was swearing up and down that by the beginning of 2000, some major PC manufacturer would be selling Linux-preloaded systems branded for comsumers in places like CompUSA. That obviously didn't happen.

    For most of the last four years, I've been predicting that by the beginning of 2005, most people would be using open source operating systems (keeping in mind that that could be Windows, if Microsoft caught a clue in time). Doesn't look like that's going to happen.

    Now it's looking to me like the first half of 2006 is when Linux use on the consumer desktop will move from the "early adopter" to the "early majority" phase. I say this because:

    * It's virtually guaranteed that we'll have several more major deployments in 2004 and 2005. These might be specialized applications instead of general desktop, but that will help create demand for more general applications.

    * If you read the "Roadmap to desktop Linux" posted earlier today, it's clear that several very cool and useful features will be coming to the Free desktop in the next couple years.

    * OpenOffice.org 2.0 should be released in the first half of 2005, and it is planned to make development of add-ons much easier. This will hopefully help get more office-oriented vertical applications ported to OOo.

    When all this happens over the next couple years, I believe desktop Linux will turn from a stream to an avalanche.

    But still, we need consumer pre-loads with all hardware configured to work out of the box, and marketed well. Few people are going to buy a Windows-infested PC, then choose to replace Windows with Linux. This is probably the most iffy condition, but I think it will happen. Most PC manufacturers would do anything to break away from MSFT.

    1. Re:Always "a couple years away" by kris · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It seems like Linux on the desktop for the masses is always a couple years away.

      Depends on who you are looking at. For me and about 2/3 of my colleagues, Linux on the desktop has already happened several years ago. I, being a consultant, am running Suse Linux on my laptop, on my business desktop, and on all machines at home.

      I own a copy of VMware, but reviewing my usage of it, I only use it with Win98 to program my PBX at home, and most of the time with Linux to simulate certain customer configurations and experiment with RAID and cluster setups. All office work, including text processing, presentation and calculation is being done on Linux natively, as is web browsing, other internet work, and of couse all security work.

      Kristian

    2. Re:Always "a couple years away" by hacker · · Score: 2, Insightful
      "It seems like Linux on the desktop for the masses is always a couple years away."

      A famous quote comes to mind:

      "When victory is inevitable, don't complain that it doesn't arrive fast enough."
    3. Re:Always "a couple years away" by Tony-A · · Score: 1

      When all this happens over the next couple years, I believe desktop Linux will turn from a stream to an avalanche.

      Yep. The question now is "when" rather than "whether".
      You can jump in early and maybe have some effect on what the standards will be.
      You can jump in later when the standards have stabilized and save yourself some pain adjusting to the ultimate standards.

      The governments jumping in now have an advantage in that whatever they do becomes a de facto standard as regards anyone the have dealings with.

      Some corporations will jump in shortly to attempt to affect the standards so they will be friendlier to those corporations.

      Others will follow as it becomes obvious which standards they have to follow.

    4. Re:Always "a couple years away" by omega9 · · Score: 1

      "...to program my PBX at home, and most of the time with Linux to simulate certain customer configurations and experiment with RAID and cluster setups."

      I guess we can stop looking for the perfect example of the average user.

      --
      I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it.
  38. Exactly! by Enucite · · Score: 1

    I can't stand using Windows now that I've gotten used to running Linux 2.6 (with the Andrew Morten patches).

    Linux 2.6 is so much faster and more responsive than any version of Windows I've used.

    However, the 2.4 kernel is still comparable to Windows in speed and most people don't have the time/knowledge required to upgrade to 2.6.
    I think once 2.6 starts shipping with major distros we'll see more people talking about how much faster Linux is.

  39. personally, i hope they can look at Desktop Linux by sQuEeDeN · · Score: 2

    I guess my one hope for this year is that end-user linux improves. I personally have two boxen operating right now, one linux, one windows. The windows one does exactly what I want, desktop related. It happens to be aggravating to deal with server-wise, which is what my linux box does. For example. I click and, three seconds (at most) later, mozilla comes up and I browse stuff. Yay.
    For linux, I wait about 10 seconds at a minimum. I understand there is a 800mhz difference between the two processors, but this is just absurd. No, mozilla does not pre-load on either.

    My sincere hope is that scheduling advances in the 2.6 kernel series will provide a much more usable interface. Java runs sooo much better on windows than it does on linux, and this is something that matters to me. I shouldn't have to renice -2 java so eclipse can have a decent reaction time.

    other than that, the only way to go is up. let's hear it for all those developers who are trying to do the things I mentioned, and about a bajillion other things. Hats off to ya'.

    --

    Recursive (adj.): see 'Recursive'
  40. While we're in punditry mode ... by Micah · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Here's a question I'd like to throw out:

    When, if ever, will there be a clear "winner" between Gnome and KDE for the average desktop?

    When Linux takes over the desktop in a few years, will either one of them be the de-facto standard that nearly everyone uses?

    Right now there's so much mindshare and development commitment in both, and it's hard to see when that will change. But I don't think it will last forever. Eventually one will have to give. Which one and how long will it take?

    1. Re:While we're in punditry mode ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why do we want a de facto standard to replace another de facto standard, we want real standards not de facto one. Aslong as data is portable between apps and desktops who cares which "wins".

    2. Re:While we're in punditry mode ... by Baloo+Ursidae · · Score: 1
      When, if ever, will there be a clear "winner" between Gnome and KDE for the average desktop?

      Remind me again when it wasn't KDE? Gnome's great, and I'm not knocking it, but KDE seems to have a more universal appeal.

      --
      Help us build a better map!
    3. Re:While we're in punditry mode ... by binary+paladin · · Score: 1

      Yeah, as far as I know it's more widely used. (Hell, I jumped ship from Gnome a few months ago.)

    4. Re:While we're in punditry mode ... by grilo · · Score: 1

      I hope both keep striving! :) I find the 'competition' (if I'm allowed to call it so), very healthy. Plus, it's a matter of choice. If one of them 'dies', other project will rise and try to compete with the 'winning' one.

      One desktop to rule them all... ;)

    5. Re:While we're in punditry mode ... by hacker · · Score: 1
      "When, if ever, will there be a clear "winner" between Gnome and KDE for the average desktop?"

      Never, I hope. That's the whole point! C H O I C E!

    6. Re:While we're in punditry mode ... by Micah · · Score: 1

      I actually agree. The point of my message is that eventually, I think, the market will decide that one is a clear winner. That winner will be shipped on nearly all Linux systems, and the other will be on the back burner.

      Until that happens, though, it's great that we have both. The competition makes both of them better!

    7. Re:While we're in punditry mode ... by hacker · · Score: 1
      I guess I'm in the other camp. I use neither.

      Actually, not entirely true. I use both at the same time, but neither of them have any visual components I ever see, they're all back-end libraries and functions that other applications I use reference.

      I don't use any of those toolbars, wharfs, docs, icons, file managers, or anything like that. Just a fast, speedy sawfish build with all the other goodies removed, which gives me a high-performing development desktop. No icons, no titlebars, no frames, nothing to get in the way of working on code itself. I have all of the eye-candy tools and applications installed also, available from right/left/shift/alt context menus, depending on my area of the screen or window. Works like a champ.

      To do this on Windows, would cost several thousand dollars in application registrations for tools that remove or add these things, and it still wouldn't allow me to do what lisp + sawfish + other configuration options I have set, can do.

      The GNOME camp is trying to make Linux as "dumb" as possible (they've admitted this numerous times), so that Joe User and Grandma can use it. This is the primary reason why GNOME1 had all the powerful "crackrock" features, and GNOME2 is fairly crippled, with most of those features removed. GNOME is not meant for a power user or a developer or a technology person. It is meant for your mother, your younger sister, or your grandfather to use.

      It is for this reason alone, that I hope GNOME or KDE do not "win" this faux race for the desktop. If all there is left, is innovation for the "Joe User" camp, we will once-again be forked off building more alternatives for those that this option does not suit.

    8. Re:While we're in punditry mode ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Real men don't use desktops.

    9. Re:While we're in punditry mode ... by spitzak · · Score: 1

      I expect the differences will be gradually merged until you cannot really tell which one is running.

      The huge advantage here is that it works as a great filter so only features that are needed for interoperability will be put into the "low level" desktop interface. Meanwhile behavior features that do not need to be looked at by other programs will remain in the per-toolkit area, where they should be.

      This is similar to getting rid of the text/data distinction in files. On older pre-Multics systems there were hundreds of calls to manage records and databases in files (this is pretty much where Windows is, and where you would be if you wrote to QT or GTK only). The only alternative anybody saw was to let programs write the disk blocks directly (pretty much the equivalent of Xlib now) so you could only use one program on a machine (like where Gnome and KDE conflict). When Multics/Unix came out, they managed to reduce the system interface to the open/seek/read/write we all use now. More complex interfaces (like SQL) can be built on top of this, and many alternatives used at the same time without conflict. Also things like networked storage, undreamed of at the time this interface was invented, are possible.

      I do hope that having these conflicts will force the GUI interface toward a logical and minimal design. It is difficult, but much preferrable to having a baroque Windows (or KDE or Gnome) interface only.

  41. MOD PARENT UP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    +5 Funny!

  42. You have it backwards by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    If you dominate the desktop, you can't innovate. The tech support costs of innovation quickly spiral out of control. This might change as more jobs are moved to cheap overseas labor, but I doubt it. OEMs don't like innovation because they have to field the calls when a user is confused. Software developers hate it because it means redoing code and distributing patches (and maybe trying to charge for patches, which really ticks customers off).

    Microsoft's 'innovations' to the XP GUI weren't for innovations sake, they where to dumb things down. Microsoft isn't trying to be innovative, they're trying to get rich. While they're doing that, they'll happily let everyone else innovate.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:You have it backwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Blood is drippin, I'm not slippin
      Bitches panties, is what I'm rippin
      Rollin faster than a motherfuckin dirt bike
      Never met a piece of pussy that I didn't like
      Like to eat it, like to suck it
      Take a shit... in a bucket

      Float like a cannonball, sting like a shark
      I'm the nigga waitin for you in the dark

    2. Re:You have it backwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh fuck off, honkey.

  43. Re:My Bet Is On 2006 - maybe a lot sooner by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Not being a linux user(flame me) Once RockStar Games (as I see) the last major developer does linux-ports migration might increase rapidly. Linux needs a unified high-level interface that is strongly customizible and has desktop graphic acceleration. A lot of stuff Lindows is doing is helping but their cost online subscription is horrible.

  44. I agree in large part to this... by DaedalusLogic · · Score: 1

    But, remember around 1990~ or so that the reason that so many people went PC was for economic reasons? The .edu market slipped and fell into the corporate save a buck regime.

    I think Sun may have a winner with the Java Desktop... though the Java in the desktop is suspect... it's Linux... You show people how to save money AND get the job done and they're converts...

    We do still have to plug away at high performance in a few areas that make the most gains... Keep the storage, I/O, and a few emerging gadgets supported... The core of the computing experience... That's what wins users... I'm drunk... and I still make more sense than the general computing public.

  45. Dictating terms by October_30th · · Score: 1
    If you dominate the desktop, you can't innovate.

    Sure you can. You can do whatever you want because you dictate the terms. Even if people, OEMs and developers get pissed off at you, they'll still keep using your product because there's no feasible alternative.

    they where to dumb things down.

    You say that as if it is a bad thing?

    --
    The owls are not what they seem
    1. Re:Dictating terms by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

      That works just great untill you piss off the OEMs, then they go looking for alternatives. Apple took BSD and made it into a consumer OS, whose to say Gateway couldn't? What's stopping them is Microsoft is cheaper.

      One of the great things Microsoft does is take the heat off OEMs for crappy tech support. You call your OEM with a tough question and get a tech with poor training and worse wages. Not realizing this you expect amazing technical skill, will be sorely disappointed. So the tech dumps you on Microsoft. Your anger gets directed at Microsoft, but since they have a monopoly it doesn't really matter. This works great as long as you're not swamped with easy calls your techs can't pass off the Microsoft (like calls about the confusing new UI). In case you think I'm some crackpot conspiracy theorist, I say that I don't think this was planned. It just worked out so well.

      Alternately, you come up with something besides tech support costs that's keeping OEMs away from Linux for their low end desktops. Since the anti trust trial Microsoft can't dump on them too much. And they sell enought broken hardware (bad ram, iffy graphics chips) that a little less than polished software isn't gonna upset 'em.

      Finally, yes, dumbing things down is bad. I want people to not only use computers, but understand them. Maybe then we won't have so many email viruses spread by people launching attachments.

      --
      Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    2. Re:Dictating terms by October_30th · · Score: 1
      Finally, yes, dumbing things down is bad. I want people to not only use computers, but understand them. Maybe then we won't have so many email viruses spread by people launching attachments.

      I don't see why people should "understand how their computers work" any more than they should understand how a car, VCR or a cellphone works. Personally I want is software that's easy to learn in a few minutes so that I can get actual work done with it. That means that the interface is not that much different from what I'm used to. I don't care how the software works internally.

      Viruses are an irrelevant problem in the large scale of things, although for a computer professionals they might seem as a sign of an impending apocalypse. Yet, no-one has ever been killed by a computer virus.

      --
      The owls are not what they seem
  46. VIGILS FOR MICHAEL JACKSON! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What are you people doing here? Go out and attend vigils for Michael Jackson. It's like a lynching and must be stopped!

    1. Re:VIGILS FOR MICHAEL JACKSON! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't understand how someone who has died his skin white can play the "race card" but somehow michael seems to be doing it.

    2. Re:VIGILS FOR MICHAEL JACKSON! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is not a race issue. MJ just finally abused somebody he couldn't buy off!

    3. Re:VIGILS FOR MICHAEL JACKSON! by Bloody+Twit · · Score: 1
      This is not a race issue.

      Not according to Jermaine.
      --
      [Insert pseudo-intellectual anti-Amerikan/pro-socialist sig here]
  47. I set my sights lower by vik · · Score: 1

    I'm looking forward to 3 things in 2004:

    Getting cut & paste unified between X apps.

    Having Xface support in Evolution.

    A 3D World/avatar interface to Jabber.

    Everything else will just happen.

    Vik :v)

    1. Re:I set my sights lower by WWWWolf · · Score: 1
      Getting cut & paste unified between X apps.

      X already has cut and paste unified. I hope that in 2004, we have finally developed an user who doesn't get primary-selection and clipboard confused.

      A 3D World/avatar interface to Jabber.

      A non-beta, working GNOME2 Jabber client would be a better start. I made the mistake of seeing Exodus on Windows, and now I hunger for something like that for GNOME.

    2. Re:I set my sights lower by vik · · Score: 1

      I don't much care if it's primary selection, clipboarding, inboarding or outboarding. What I know is that I can't cut and paste between X apps, and I'm tech-savvy. Those considering transitioning from Windows have a less forgiving attitude.

      I worry about people who can't see it as a usability probem. Is there anything wrong with the attitude that it should just work? Perhaps it should be unnecessarily complicated to keep Windows users from switching to Linux? Not.

  48. It's all about accreditation by OffTheLip · · Score: 1

    This battle is wagged routinely in the large government agency in which I work and won or loss based on how literally the oganization policy is interpreted. One of the versions of SUSE Linux has met the accredidation requirements as has Solaris and Microsoft 2000. Our distro of choice is Red Hat which has not made the cut to my knowledge. Just this past week we tried to deploy a Apache web server on a Linux system and were denied access to the intended network because of the accredidation issue. We ended up reloading with W2K and Apache, a workable but less desirable platform. NIAP accredidation is tedious and expensive but it is the price to play and needs to be done to gain widespread acceptance. I can't tell you how many times I've been told NFW to Linux on a target network when it's clearly the right choice.

  49. My predictions for 2004 by rock_climbing_guy · · Score: 1
    1. more goatse trolls


    2. Every time there is a story on /. about some guy getting ethernet on an ancient computer, the server will melt and someone will say that the web page must be hosted on said computer


    3. more Microsoft / SCO FUD

    --
    Wh47 d1d j00 541, 31337 15n't t3h r0xor5 ne m0r3???
    1. Re:My predictions for 2004 by binary+paladin · · Score: 1

      I hate to ask, but what is "FUD"?

    2. Re:My predictions for 2004 by lederen · · Score: 1
  50. On a lighter musical note... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ..check out classical music fan and Usenet kook David Tholen:

    (Previously the holder of the Internet Kook Of The Month award!)

    He hangs out in rec.music.classical, although he's also active on OS/2 newsgroups.

    He writes these crazy lists of people he considers are antagonistic towards him, although even asking him a single, simple question can get you added to the list. Check it out:

    http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie =U TF-8&oe=UTF-8&threadm=bpiesb%24r1p%241%40online.de &prev=/groups%3Fhl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe% 3DUTF-8%26group%3Drec.music.classical

    or just search rec.music.classical for the word `antagonist`.

    He's inspired the following fan site:

    http://members.tripod.com/~tholen_of_borg/

  51. Gentoo, Portage, Python by axxackall · · Score: 1, Informative
    2004 will be a year when many corporations, especially those who will try to adapt Linux as a primary desktop platform, will recognize Gentoo for several reasons:
    • Portage gives a corporate IT the most fine-grained dependency control protecting the consistency of installations within upgrades;
    • Gentoo makes possible to compile everything from sources on a reference hardware, adapting by that to the last bit of any available performance optimization, and then distribute the compiled binares to compatible hardware cross the enterprise (using GRP for fresh installations and just shared /usr/portage/packages for already installed systems);
    • Gentoo (mostly thanks to Portage) represents really the next generation design of Linux distro;
    As a side affect of that, Gentoo with Portage will help corporations to recognize Python as the next-wave language after Java.
    --

    Less is more !
    1. Re:Gentoo, Portage, Python by GreyWolf3000 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      2004 will be a year when many corporations, especially those who will try to adapt Linux as a primary desktop platform, will recognize Gentoo for several reasons:

      Please, explain to me why.

      * Portage gives a corporate IT the most fine-grained dependency control protecting the consistency of installations within upgrades;

      I don't agree with this one. Corporations that "roll their own" packages have the same advantage. Movifying SRPMS can acheive the same effect.

      * Gentoo makes possible to compile everything from sources on a reference hardware, adapting by that to the last bit of any available performance optimization, and then distribute the compiled binares to compatible hardware cross the enterprise (using GRP for fresh installations and just shared /usr/portage/packages for already installed systems);

      Normally I would respond to this one saying that most people who use CFLAGS to optimize binaries actually hurt themselves, but corporations would have people that actually know how to use them best (i.e. -Os over -O3 or even -O2). However, I don't think that this is really an issue for corporations.

      * Gentoo (mostly thanks to Portage) represents really the next generation design of Linux distro;

      How so, specifically? There is something to be said for having a dedicated box to building binaries for the whole infrastructure, but the idea that Gentoo can do this and no other distro can is rather ignorant.

      Gentoo is a really cool distribution (no joke), but I fail to see any technical advantages it has over other distributions. It's real strengths are in how it brings a lot of advanced administration techniques down to the level of an intermediate-level user. Plus the forums are cool, and portage is really well maintained.

      Trust me on this one, though, there's no actual technical superiority over other distributions.

      By the way, can you do reverse dependency checking yet? Like uninstalling gtk, and having every app that builds against gtk also unistall? I'm not "knocking" it if it can't (this isn't too important to corporations anyways), I'm just curious.

      --
      Slashdot: Where people pretend to be twice as smart as they really are by behaving like children.
    2. Re:Gentoo, Portage, Python by Stephen+Chadfield · · Score: 1

      Yes, of course. Spending weeks tweaking complex software configurations to gain a 1% performance increase is a high priority for overstretched IT departments.

    3. Re:Gentoo, Portage, Python by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here it goes, compiling from source is annoying and time consuming. Gentoo is a placebo when it comes to speed and quickness for the most part.

    4. Re:Gentoo, Portage, Python by binary+paladin · · Score: 4, Insightful

      *rolls eyes*

      No WONDER everyone seems to have this thing against Gentoo users. I think a lot of us get too caught up in our own distribution's "superiority" without remembering that the cool part of multiple distributions appeal to certain people. However tons of people seem to wish their particular distro will catch on and take the mainstream.

      Frankly, as a Gentoo user, I don't ever want it to "take over" (and being source based I don't think it will). I like its niche and I like its community. Mass usage is going to kill that.

      I don't think Gentoo is ever going to appeal to "big" corps or businesses. Small shops perhaps (I use it for all my operations) but the big guys? Nope. Corporations like dealing with corporations, it's that simple.

    5. Re:Gentoo, Portage, Python by axxackall · · Score: 2
      Movifying SRPMS can acheive the same effect.

      And coding on assembly language (instead of a high-level one) can be used for developing applications too. Portage helps and protects in a similar way as a garbage collector. We use Portage in our company and we know it already.

      However, I don't think that this is really an issue for corporations.

      You did not work in the corp with hundreds of newest (P4), hundreds of older (P3) and still dozens of the oldest (P-II) PCs.

      the idea that Gentoo can do this and no other distro can is rather ignorant.

      The practice shows that with Gentoo IT personell spends less time and IT's bugzilla has less issues.

      Trust me on this one, though, there's no actual technical superiority over other distributions.

      I fail to see why I should trust you. You certainly don't have any experience of deplying Gentoo to the big (or even mid) size corporation.

      can you do reverse dependency checking yet? Like uninstalling gtk, and having every app that builds against gtk also unistall?

      Just did it with KDE and Qt. You may want to check Gentoo forums for appropriate scripts.

      By the way, Gentoo community is not fanatic, as many try to represent here. It's very friendly. The chance to hear RTFM is more on Debian forums.

      --

      Less is more !
    6. Re:Gentoo, Portage, Python by monkeyfinger · · Score: 1
      Corporations like dealing with corporations, it's that simple.

      That may be a bonus for companies like Redhat. A lot of corporations might be wary of some Linux distros because they seem to be run by hippies. A recognisable corporation like Redhat might be more reassuring to them.

    7. Re:Gentoo, Portage, Python by axxackall · · Score: 1

      That's one of differences of Gentoo from other distros: in Gentoo you don't spend weeks of your time for tweaking, you just say what flags to use, and ebauild will decide in a very consistent way where it is appropriate or not.

      --

      Less is more !
    8. Re:Gentoo, Portage, Python by DoctorPepper · · Score: 1

      By the way, Gentoo community is not fanatic, as many try to represent here. It's very friendly. The chance to hear RTFM is more on Debian forums.

      Sorry, but I must disagree with this statement for two reasons:

      1. Debian has been around a hell of a lot longer than Gentoo and it's FAQ's and documentation are very well written and maintained. The people that answer questions on the discussion groups have generally been doing this for a long time, and have answered the same questions over and over and over and ..... Get the point?

      2. I read a lot of comments from all kind of Linux users, but the ones I keep reading the most about tend to be Gentoo users, who keep preaching about how wonderful Gentoo is. Maybe this isn't fanatasism in your book, but it is in mine.

      --

      No matter where you go... there you are.
    9. Re:Gentoo, Portage, Python by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dear sir, you appear to have been brainwashed by the Cult of the Gentu. Please report to your nearest LUG for immediate treatment with a Re-Learning of Debian.

    10. Re:Gentoo, Portage, Python by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It's not fanaticism in my book, too.

      People tend to advocate what they like, and do you know why? To help others!

      It's like when you like a car brand or wine -- you just tell your friends how great this or that brands are. These "fanatics" could as well just keep silent and they could keep what they consider good for themselves.

      I never used Gentoo, and maybe I'd could even get disappointed with it, but I know these folks are trying to say: "hey, this is great, and everyone can use it, come on."

    11. Re:Gentoo, Portage, Python by joib · · Score: 2, Funny


      That's one of differences of Gentoo from other distros: in Gentoo you don't spend weeks of your time for tweaking, you just say what flags to use, and ebauild will decide in a very consistent way where it is appropriate or not.


      No, instead you spend a week defining all those USE flags, then wait two weeks for the stuff to compile, and THEN you spend weeks tweaking.

    12. Re:Gentoo, Portage, Python by antiMStroll · · Score: 1

      I agree completely. Gentoo is excellent and the only distro I use, but it's too foreign for most people accustomed to managing a Microsoft site to make for a manageable transition. FreeBSD, with its simple configuration and excellent and consistent ports collection, makes more sense for a corporation bent on a port-style package management system. Ultimately though an apt or apt/rpm solution will probably win out.

    13. Re:Gentoo, Portage, Python by Firehawke · · Score: 1

      Odd. I've had the opposite result.

      Just reading around, I see a lot more pro-Debian comments. To be honest, there ARE a number of zealots around, but they're on all sides-- the Gentoo ones were a bit more outspoken recently but they've quieted down considerably of late. Hell, I hear a lot more anti-Gentoo zealotry of late, with sigs like "Sick of gentoo zealots throwing plugs in completely unrelated topics? Me too!"-- which is ironic since it's a zealotry response in itself, just a negative one.

      Maybe what we ALL really need to do is to ignore the zealots for what they are and just choose the distro that does the job how we want it?

    14. Re:Gentoo, Portage, Python by spitzak · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I would think most of the theoretical advantages with compiling packages yourself is not from different -O settings, but because #if statements inside the code may completely eliminate parts of it at compile time. For instance compiling out support for some back-compatability thing you don't have or use may speed up a program, and will certainly make it smaller.

      This is all in theory, however. I am unsure if there is any reason for it. If machines get fast enough that people don't mind a compile as part of install then I see no reason not to distribute source-only. But the only definate advantage is the fact that the thing you download is far more likely to work, I am unsure if there would be performance advantages.

    15. Re:Gentoo, Portage, Python by GreyWolf3000 · · Score: 1

      And coding on assembly language (instead of a high-level one) can be used for developing applications too. Portage helps and protects in a similar way as a garbage collector. We use Portage in our company and we know it already.

      Writing software in assembly is a dramatically slower than a high level language. Modifying USE flags isn't really much faster than modifying a SPEC file. Also, portage separates what modifications it allows the user to do (think USE flags), and what it wants the portage maintainer to do (with the ebuilds). For people that are used to getting down and dirty with the building of packages, it's much more elegant to be able to modify the ./configure line in the SPEC file, as RPM allows a package to build a sub-package, which might contain a more esoteric dependency. Hence, the SPECfile for evolution might contain a subpackage for that old version of db it uses. If another package comes along that uses it, you want to change the ./configure line AND delete the subpackage, as well as add a dependency entry. Note that in this case I don't know if you would need to change the ./configure line at all, but I hope that you see my point. Take mplayer as another example where you might change what gets compiled in with the addition or removal of subpackages.

      My point is, with RPM and DEB, the configuration for the package is all there in one place. A more technical corporate user might enjoy this more than having to go back and adjust USE flags to match what he's changed in the e-build, for example.

      You did not work in the corp with hundreds of newest (P4), hundreds of older (P3) and still dozens of the oldest (P-II) PCs.

      You're right. Being that I, too, use a source-based distro with a ports tree, I've learned over time exactly how little optimizations really help, aside from -march, -O, and usually -fomit-frame-pointer.

      The practice shows that with Gentoo IT personell spends less time and IT's bugzilla has less issues.

      There are a number of reasons why that might be the case. The admins might be more comfortable with Gentoo. Gentoo might be easier at certain tasks. My claim was that Gentoo does not have capabilities that other distributions lack, and it's biggest strengths are in making advanced admin techniques available to intermediate users, as well as it's helpful forums.

      I fail to see why I should trust you. You certainly don't have any experience of deplying Gentoo to the big (or even mid) size corporation.

      No, I don't. But my claim was not that Gentoo wouldn't work in corporate environments. My contension was that your claim that Gentoo is this "next-generation" distribution implies that Gentoo can do things that other distributions can't do. You mentioned better performance. This is wrong because if performance mattered, binaries could be compiled in-house under any platform. Do make, gcc, etc. not exist in on other distributions? Is it not possible to build your own binaries? Come on, you're twisting my words to fit the idea that I'm saying that Gentoo couldn't fit well in a corporate environment. I'm just saying your reasons are flawed, and you're missing Gentoo's real advantages.

      Just did it with KDE and Qt. You may want to check Gentoo forums for appropriate scripts.

      What use would the scripts be?

      By the way, Gentoo community is not fanatic, as many try to represent here. It's very friendly. The chance to hear RTFM is more on Debian forums.

      I agree. There are the few that throw plugs around touting advantages that Gentoo really does not have. They kind of bother me. Debian zealots bother me too, as it turns people away from a good distribution.

      --
      Slashdot: Where people pretend to be twice as smart as they really are by behaving like children.
    16. Re:Gentoo, Portage, Python by GreyWolf3000 · · Score: 1

      My biggest point I guess is that if you know how to administer Gentoo effectively in large networks, than it probably is better for you to deploy Gentoo. Just don't get caught thinking that Gentoo is somehow better or more advanced than other distributions, when in reality, your skills with Gentoo are the part that's better.

      --
      Slashdot: Where people pretend to be twice as smart as they really are by behaving like children.
    17. Re:Gentoo, Portage, Python by binary+paladin · · Score: 1

      Which was pretty much my point. And let them. Let the nerds have the nerd distros, the hippies have the hippy distros and the corps have the corp distros. All this talk of "We need a unified distro or even just a few standard distros..." is silly. I like when distros fill their niches and I hope it stays that way.

    18. Re:Gentoo, Portage, Python by binary+paladin · · Score: 1

      But it really isn't about winning either. I don't think Gentoo is going anywhere and if RPM takes over (which I can't see happening) it won't be the death of Debian. They'll continue to appeal to certain people.

      I really like where Linux as a whole is right now and it'll get more exciting as more companies and more people embrace it as a whole and there will always be distros to appeal to different groups.

      I'm just hoping no single distro ever takes the majority.

    19. Re:Gentoo, Portage, Python by AmbyVoc · · Score: 1

      I think I love Gentoo, but I agree with you that Gentoo probably isn't best for corporations.. Well that could be debated 'till the cows come home.

      Actually the only thing about Gentoo I am really disappointed is the fact there are no ebuilds for bibtex. Not one. Zilch.. Zero.. None..

      Ok, finally I got that off my heart :)..

      --
      - Voice of Ambience -
  52. kernel out? by gmby · · Score: 1

    I bet the 2.6 kernel will be released... oh wait..nevermind.

    --
    I don't want a pickle; I just want a Motor-Cycle! A four foot cop arrived with a five foot gun!
  53. Re:Linux ego by ajs318 · · Score: 1
    and like most homemade projects (ie beer) while it tastes nice, it will always seem to have something wrong with it.
    WTF? Homemade tastes better than store-bought every time, and if it doesn't then you're doing something seriously wrong.
    <tangent>I wonder if it is possible that a child raised on store-bought crap might get the impression that things were supposed to be that way? Could someone be so brainwashed as to believe that only a big corporation could do anything properly? Order two babies from lab supplies house, for experiment.</tangent>
    I bake all my own bread and cakes, I have brewed my own {rather lethal} booze, and next year {it's winter here now} I'm going to be growing my own vegetables. and probably brewing even more booze. In the 8-bit days I wrote my own software, when all there was was BASIC and machine code.
    --
    Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
  54. This is the year that Open Source will FINALLY by RLiegh · · Score: 4, Funny

    be made illegal for all intents and purposes. NO ONE in thier right mind can believe that the republicans in power would let the 3rd world get away with becoming independent of american interests [trans: "get away with not putting money in american pockets."]

    With the DMCA, etc in place, and the current state of soft-ware patents in europe, I think it's safe to say that in 2005, the only ones who'll be left using GNU software will be outlaws.

    1. Re:This is the year that Open Source will FINALLY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You cannot make open source illegal. You can make closed source illegal. In the end, that is what will happen. The USA will get a nasty wake-up call, and it will be obvious to them once again that daylight is a damn good disinfectant.

  55. Madam Zelda by POds · · Score: 1

    Well i see Lindows selling more and more computers and substantial sales for their laptops. I also see the possiblity of myself either having one of those Lindows laptops, a normal laptop with debian installed, an AmigaOne with debian and AmigaOS4 or an Apple iBook with debian installed...

    Hrmm... The future is looking very much like debian. I see more desktop oriented linux distro's based on linux. I also see standard debian programs such as APT starting to be excepted by other distributors which will lead to the a standard front end for package mangement :) *wish*

    Ummm...

    Commercial Unix will suffer again whilst linux is triumphant in the server market. Linux will start to make inroads into desktop OS...

    Kernel 2.6 will kick off a lot of new distros and the overall user experience will be improved!

    --


    Giving IE users a taste of their own medicine since 2005 - http://pods.-is-a-geek.net/
  56. The Future Fair... by jefu · · Score: 5, Informative
    I don't know what will happen in linux, but here are some of the things I'd like to see...

    Out of nowhere will come the killer office app that integrates word processing, spreadsheets and databases so they really interoperate nicely. (Think Improv, Access, and some quasi-wysiwyg word processor that works on xml schemas all bred together by a Christopher Lloyd as Dr. Brown and then make "easy" enough for the masses. Maybe even constraint propagation as the spreadsheet engine.)

    A personal information manager will surface that enables us all to keep track of mail, favorite websites, IM buddylists, newsgroups and all that ephemeral, necessary information that clogs our bits and our neurons. (Ideally it will integrate with the above.)

    Linux will finally have a sound system that works and without it being a pain to deal with.

    A way to build and install kernels and modules that requires less than serious geekery to get to work.

    Package management will mature enough that we wont have to chase dependencies manually, and so that packages will install cleanly.

    A good dictation package.

    A linux based PDA about the size of a paperback with handwriting recognition and (of course) all of the above.

    Hey, I can dream, can't I?

    1. Re:The Future Fair... by binary+paladin · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "Linux will finally have a sound system that works and without it being a pain to deal with."

      Kernel 2.6 has ALSA built in and with auto module loading it is really nice (well, nicer than it is without auto loading... which is still nice).

      I really think that 2.6 is going to do a lot of good for the world of Linux. I've been running the betas and am VERY impressed with the responsiveness of my machine as compared to 2.4 and it's rock solid too.

      It'll be nice when my distro runs it stock and the newer driver models are conformed to. When 2.6 is mainstream I think we're going to see a lot of good things for the Linux world all around.

    2. Re:The Future Fair... by 42.5 · · Score: 1

      "A linux based PDA about the size of a paperback with handwriting recognition ..."

      See http://www.myzaurus.com, the future is already here.

      --
      Non illegemati carborundum est!
    3. Re:The Future Fair... by AbbyNormal · · Score: 1

      "A personal information manager"

      I think you're right on the money on that one. What the open source community needs, is to create an open collaboration framework to follow (maybe based on Jabber or not). Once that is tied into Open Office/Jabber/Evolution...you would have one hell of a killer app.

      I personally would like to see a brand new IDE and Language that had multi-platform support. As much as everyone berated Visual Basic as being a "tinker-toy" language, it was extremely easy to use and setup custom business processes in. Want a form with a dropdown list and a button? Click, drag, and voila. Once such a language is present on all platforms, MS .NET will become irrelevant.

      Just my $0.02.

      --
      Sig it.
    4. Re:The Future Fair... by fishbowl · · Score: 1

      "Kernel 2.6 has ALSA built in and with auto module loading it is really nice"

      ALSA is nice, JACK is nice, and the soundsystem nuts and bolts might be the best thing available.

      BUT, anyone who claims the linux sound system has arrived, isn't using cubase in a production environment. There is still a long, long way to go at the application level.

      If the Magix folks would release their audio product for linux, that would be plenty, though. JACK/ALSA would have to provide an ASIO interface, and VST plugins would have to work. Magix is a high quality product that nobody seems to know about, from a German company. I thought German companies tended to be into linux, so maybe this is not far-fetched.

      If the notion that "hollywood" uses linux could get further, maybe digi/protools or steinberg would start to notice too.

      --
      -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
    5. Re:The Future Fair... by binary+paladin · · Score: 1

      Ohhh... okay. Keep in mind I just install my sound drivers and play music on my box so to me that's a solid sound system. But yeah, I get what you're saying now.

      What I responded with really had little to do with what you were talking about now that I think about it.

    6. Re:The Future Fair... by fishbowl · · Score: 1

      Most people seem to think only in terms of output.

      A/V output is the easy part...

      --
      -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
  57. which community are you talking about? by themusicgod1 · · Score: 1

    there are two in question here, open source, and free software.
    people in the free software community are not going away because of rms and his "obnoxious ethics"...and so what if people are being driven away from the free software community because of its raving visionaries? this should not effect a complete and seperate open-source community. remember it's the union of the two communities that is important here, and so long as there isn't some sort of net loss, things are ok. and keeping an elitist either-you-get-it-or-you-dont side AND a we-welcome-everybody side to the whole ordeal seems to me very logical and practical, especially for something that just sort of happened to self-convulse into being.
    also remember, some of us are geeks...social grace, caring about what others think, and diplomacy play no time in my mind when bigger issues are at stake...and rms knows this more then anyone.
    of course, mabye i misinterpreted something. i haven't met rms live yet, only seem breif interviews and clippings of him. but there's an fsf-associate meeting coming up, so who knows.

    --
    GENERATION 26: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation.
    1. Re:which community are you talking about? by Feztaa · · Score: 1

      there are two in question here, open source, and free software.

      I consider them to be the same community. The Free Software people consider themselves separate from the Open Source people, but that only because the Open Source people aren't "pure" enough for them. Both develop the same software, and use the same licenses, the only practical difference is the rhetoric.

      people in the free software community are not going away because of rms ....

      Yeah, exactly, because they're already IN the community. They already subscribe to RMS's beliefs. What I'm talking about are the outsiders, the Windows users, the lay people. They just want to use the computer as a tool and get their work done, they're put off by all the talk about idealogical purity that the RMS camp continually spews. On the other hand, they're attracted to ESR's pragmatism (Basicaally: "hey, it's just plain better, and it's cheaper, too. What more do you want?").

      i haven't met rms live yet,

      Me either, but I'd LOVE to meet the guy. It's probably better than I haven't; it allows me to respect his idealism without being turned off by those certain behavioral nuances that everybody seems to hate :)

  58. yay gnu hippies! [nt] by themusicgod1 · · Score: 1

    [nt]

    --
    GENERATION 26: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation.
  59. Linux in 2004 by fr0dicus · · Score: 3, Funny
    Linux will get an opengl rendered desktop, most window managers will default to a brushed metal look, fast user switching will be implemented (looking much like a big spinning cube). Some sort of special hotkeys will allow the user to see and cycle through their windows graphically.

    Oh no wait - Windows has to do all this first.

  60. Mod parent up.... by Slashamatic · · Score: 3, Insightful
    That is why MS will do almost anything to get into the education amrket and to lock other systems out. An example is the flat rate license - you have paid for as much microsoft software as you want so why 'waste' money on other software.

    Create a pool of Linux trained students, and they won't need 'conversion' to handle it in their workplace.

  61. RPM sucks? by Kashif+Shaikh · · Score: 3, Insightful

    "I think everyone agrees that rpms suck."

    Really? Who? Have you looked at the feature-list for RPMs? It has a *LOT* of good features that makes it a joy for packaging software programs. It's very well defined and easy to write spec file format(yes its nit-picky -- but that's good), package signing, package integrity checking(i.e. missing files), package querying, dependent lib checking, SRPMS format, idea of prestine sources, package roll-back(very cool), etc.

    What sucks about RPMs is that rpm *installation* utilities are stupid. RPM was designed by Redhat as a format to install/upgrade distro-packages - so all dependencies would already be satisfied. Meaning you have to explicitly provide all dependent RPMs during installation. This is the part that sucks. The higher-level utilities are not smart enough to satisfy dependencies by themselves, and we experience dependency hell.

    Using a tool like apt will solve this problem, but it doesn't know if a particular RPM is 'pure' or has been 'tainted'. A 'pure' RPM only uses libs/packages provided by the distro-vendor, while a 'tainted' RPM contains custom "external" dependencies. In the latter case, apt will not be able to figure out dependent RPMs without the user providing an additional repository. However 'tainted' RPMs are the fault of the packager - and it's the packager's responsibility for dependency checking -- not RPM.

    Finally, many rpms cannot work interchangibly on different distros(i.e. SuSE and Redhat) or even across multiple vendor versions(i.e. RH9.0 rpm --> RH7.2). Who's fault is this: packager and rpmbuild for making package building too damn easy.

    1. Re:RPM sucks? by suitti · · Score: 1
      Meaning you have to explicitly provide all dependent RPMs during installation. This is the part that sucks.

      To a large extent, what really sucks are the dependencies themselves. A large fraction of these dependencies stem from shared libraries.

      Shared libraries introduce binaries that work on one distribution, but not another - forcing upgrades of non-distribution packages installed, pointlessly.

      What do shared libraries save? A little RAM? Often, they don't save any RAM. Many packages are the only users of a given shared library. In this case, compiling statically produces a smaller binary - as unused routines are not included. Disk space? Shared libraries must have symbols included. You need to have several apps use a shared library to save anything. On top of this, RAM and disk are becoming dirt cheap compared to what is saved. Really, $105 US buys a 160 GB hard disk, $110 buys 512 MB RAM.

      We can reduce this dependency nightmare nearly overnight - compile statically.

      --
      -- Stephen.
  62. My hopes for 2004 - some realisation please by DrXym · · Score: 4, Insightful
    I believe (or rather hope) that someone will cop on during 2004 and we will see movement on the following.
    • A desktop offering hardware acceleration, scaling, blending, composition effects. There are promising extensions for X for this and they should be leapt on. But if means ditching X / a WM then so be it - QT / GTK are meant to be abstraction layers after all and X can run rootless on top of whatever-it-is if need be.
    • A desktop where KDE / GNOME / dist homegrown tools are blended into a single cohesive entity. Not one with a generic KDE / GNOME slapped together with some weird tools (i.e. Mandrake). The desktop will be referred to as "the desktop" in all dialogs / apps and not KDE / GNOME / Drak / Yast etc. except in advanced documentation.
    • A unified help system - one that offers one stop access to all man pages, info, html, READMEs, GNOME / KDE / dist help, all ordered in a task centric way with full search facilities.
    • A desktop that offers to install additional apps (especially DVD, MP3 player etc.) in a user friendly manner click N run style during installation and at any time after. Even if there are legal reasons for not shipping MP3 on the CDs for example, the dist could still make it easy to find them remotely.
    • A unified distribution neutral driver model with detection, installation / removal architecture. The situation at the moment with getting a driver (or the hell of writing and supporting one) on Linux is a joke. Even a popular driver like NVidia involves screwing around at the command prompt and having a toolchain and kernel source if your dist is not directly supported.
    • A unified theme engine. A single engine that any app, toolkit or WM can use to render buttons and decorations.
    • Identification of every day operations and a UI to support them completely with no overlapping functionality. There should be no need for mere mortals to drop to the shell. Not even once. If OS X users can control a BSD derivative with a (single button) mouse then so can Linux. It doesn't mean Linux must be 'dumbed down', just that needless complication should be identified and removed / hidden from those who don't want to see it.
    And most importantly:
    • A realisation that Longhorn is coming and unless people pull their fingers out of their arses and address these shortcomings now Linux is going to look like a relic. It struggles enough to even compete with XP and that in no small part is due to lacklustre enthusiasm most Linux users have for the problem. Linux will never replace Windows on it desktop with the RTFM attitude so leave it at the door.
    1. Re:My hopes for 2004 - some realisation please by hacker · · Score: 2, Insightful
      "Linux will never replace Windows on it desktop with the RTFM attitude so leave it at the door."

      Perhaps that is because for most of us, the goal isn't to replace Windows with Linux. It is to replace "legacy" Unix with Linux. Microsoft isn't even on the radar for 90% or more of the people actually developing and providing the Linux kernel, tools and other applications.

    2. Re:My hopes for 2004 - some realisation please by Spoing · · Score: 1
      A unified help system - one that offers one stop access to all man pages, info, html, READMEs, GNOME / KDE / dist help, all ordered in a task centric way with full search facilities.

      Good point, though I'd prefer that in an app, pressing F1 brings up the appropriate help. Having a central repository would be nice, though most searches would be useless or cluttered (search on "preview" and get back 87 responses for 45 apps).

      --
      A firewall can not protect you from yourself. Turn off what you do not need. Do not use the firewall to do your work.
    3. Re:My hopes for 2004 - some realisation please by dbIII · · Score: 1
      A desktop where KDE / GNOME / dist homegrown tools are blended into a single cohesive entity.
      There's a single desktop designed to rule them all - called CDE. A lot of people don't like it, which is why we have KDE, gnome or just the bare window managers.
      A realisation that Longhorn is coming
      That's not really relevant. If Longhorn is fantastic and released tomorrow that helps everyone - even those of use that will be using linux. Better stability helps everyone, more functionality helps everyone (eg. the XP desktop switcher has resulted in more people using xdm/gdm/kdm on their linux boxes).
      Linux is going to look like a relic
      You have to remember that the NT series is a relatively new system moving slowly towards stability under load and scalability, while linux is a unix clone. Linux is a relic, but that's not a bad thing - it's just "mature".
      Linux will never replace Windows on it desktop
      The problem here is that you are expecting linux to be a better windows than windows. Microsoft has defined the parameters of that space. Linux does things differently, which makes it difficult to be a look-alike, and most people that develop under linux do not want to impose annoying (to them) limits to make the system behave like windows. The isn't really much of a contents, the two systems are going different ways, and a lot of those that care just point at macs as a good *nix desktop. What it all comes down to are the applications, and a lot of the office applications people run are on windows.

      People have focused more on the OS than the applications. With a lot of applications working across platforms we don't need to think that way. With a lot of applications running in web browsers people could use their phones if they have to - people don't cae about the OS in their phones.

      The challenge is for the system integrators - they're the ones we want to take over the desktop, not win*, linux , or *BSD (ie. mac). If a system works well for the job it is designed, then the objective has been acheived.

    4. Re:My hopes for 2004 - some realisation please by DrXym · · Score: 1
      I don't see that making Linux ready for the desktop negates any efforts to replace Unix. The issue with making desktop ready is about putting a user friendly skin over the top of Unix (much like OS X), but it does not stop someone dropping to command line, or running a more 'unix like' desktop if they feel so inclined. In short, it does not dumb down Linux.


      As for it not being on the radar, I think you are wrong. Kernel developers are just one group, and while it may not be to them there are people developing GNOME, KDE, Mozilla, OpenOffice + numerous apps and games who couldn't give a fig about 'legacy' Unix so much as producing a decent user experience. Even amongst kernel developers, there are those working on drivers, multimedia, graphics etc. who (whether it impacts them or not) are critical for the success of the desktop experience.


      And of course an expanding Linux user base from across the spectrum is a good thing. More users means there is more reason for the Red Hats, Mandrakes, SUSEs etc. of this world to hire Linux programmers.

  63. Re:personally, i hope they can look at Desktop Lin by grilo · · Score: 1

    Well, try to exchange your OSs' hardware with one another, and you'll be amazed at how linux is suddenly faster, and windows slower.

    Sometimes, I just can't understand some people's logic./p

  64. Not all CIOs are cowards (-SCO/Datacenter) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My supervisor/coordinator came one day to talk to ask, if we were affected by this "SCO Linux thing" (we got 6 dual compute-servers + a quad file-server + numerous clients).
    I said "No. They are talking bullshit. (Here in Germany) They also have been convicted to take this shit off of their homepage. And for the unlikely case they are right, there will be a version without any 'stolen' code immediately available and we can update to that one. No problems."
    And he said "Very well then. I don't worry."

    Always keep your information straight, comprehensible and sharp you supply to your "manager"! Happy End.

  65. Whores by Gothmolly · · Score: 1

    Other governments are whores to the idea of womb-to-tomb socialized health care, medicine and social welfare. Which is worse?

    --
    I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
    1. Re:Whores by mean+pun · · Score: 2, Funny

      Ooooh, that's a tough one. I must choose between a government that wants to provide good health care, medicine and social welfare, and one that wants to provide for the corporations with the largest bribing^Wlobbying budget. Yeah, real tough choice. Give me a second here, will you?

    2. Re:Whores by b17bmbr · · Score: 1

      actually it's not a tough choice. neither is good. however, one, to "provide" things, they must take from you and me. and thy ultimately have to work with the very same corporations. look at france. try opening a small business. you can't. sure, you have okay health care, etc., but you have no chance at success. and you get what the government gives you. and you really think they're better? a few months ago, 12,000 die from heat. you think that would happen in the US? never. in fact, if something ever came remotely as close, people would be in a world of shit. what happened to the beaurocrats in france? nothing.

      --
      My problem? I was perfectly gruntled, until some numbnuts came by and dissed me.
    3. Re:Whores by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just a few figures

      Workforce in France in 2002: 26,6 million
      Number of small businesses(less than 200 employees): 2 060 900

      12,906 Workers/Small Businesses

      Workforce in USA in 2000: 141,8 million
      Number of small businesses(less than 500 employees): 11 287 935

      12,562 Workers/Small Businesses

      Now I realize that this is not an accurate comparison. For some reason, the USA and France differ in their definition of a small business. Even worse, both census are not done the same years. But even then this is a good indicator that it dosen't seem to be that much harder to operate a small business over there.

      The thing is that when the government "provides" things, they also "provide" subsudies to help small businesses. Of course it's not as though and manly when the governement helps you, but I would rather be helped than be screwed.

      Sources: CIA World FactBook for the workforce
      http://www.census.gov/epcd/www/smallbus .html#EmpSi ze
      http://www.pme-commerce-artisanat.gouv.fr/user /fra megnale.php?var=5&rep=economie-chiffresclefspme&fi le=index-d

  66. In this year of 2003 (i.e., "the past" by now) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I had vendors asking me "but do you really need Windows installed? Linux works the same and it's free!"

    Unfortunately, a lot of people don't have the guts to try something new and maybe think I'm a zealot or have an agenda against Microsoft, so they didn't believe me about Linux being enough for us.

    But a lot of them were exposed to Linux in the (slow) purchasing process; a lot got Red Hat or Mandrake installed at work; many were surprised by how good/easy Linux is and how complete Oo.o became; some are installing Linux at home; deriding comments about Linux stopped, specially after on occasion when Linux saved the day, by doing something the Windows guys couldn't.

    Sorry, I can't give any further details. If I publicly admit we have Windows, and say who we are, this could put my company in danger...

  67. Re:WARNING GAY OFFTOPIC PORN POST ABOVE!!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    U use gay as if it is a bad word. Shame on u.

  68. Beg to differ, my own predictions: by Florian · · Score: 5, Insightful
    • Which Linux application area do you believe will grow the fastest in 2004?

      Conventional, but probably true answer: servers. There are still many companies running standard services like mail, web etc. on proprietary operating systems (Sun, Microsoft) in a time where it makes no whatsoever sense anymore. With kernel 2.6, Linux will gain acceptance as a high-end Unix replacement and be deployed wherever older server installations need to be replaced.

    • Will 2004 *finally* be the year when Linux makes significant in-roads on the desktop?

      No. The desktop UI is still too inconsistent across KDE/Qt, Gnome/GTK, Mozilla/XUL and Openoffice and still offers no viable alternative to the commandline when it comes to system administration/configuration.

      I predict that in 2004, attention will move away from KDE and Gnome as all-in-one-solutions. Instead, it will be finally accepted as reality among developers and users that different GUI APIs will continue to coexist, and that efforts should be made to standardize the protocols and user interfaces across the APIs. For the future of GNU/Linux and *BSD on the desktop, freedesktop.org will be much more important than kde.org and gnome.org, but it could take five-ten years until the difference between a KDE/Qt, GTK/Gnome, Tcl/Tk, Fltk program will be as irrelevant to users as the difference between a Carbon and a Cocoa app on MacOS X or as that between a Microsoft MFC program written in C++ or an OWL-based program written in Borland Delphi for a Windows user.

      Once this level of standardization is reached, the importance of all-in-one desktops like KDE and Gnome could dramatically decrease, since users instead could combine components like taskbars, window managers, file managers and system menus at will. (Which, thanks to freedesktop.org, is already possible: fspanel / fbpanel / suxpanel / the xfce4 panel can be used as drop-in replacements for the Gnome panel, rox / xffm4 as drop-in replacements for Nautlius, and the list of freedesktop.org-compliant window managers suitable as replacements of metacity / kwin is endless.)

      However, it will take yet another five years until 2013 or 2014 that a standardized Unix/GNU/Linux/BSD desktop will allow developers of system components (like sendmail/exim/Postfix/qmail, lpr/cups, Samba, Grub/Lilo...) to write GUI configuration panels for their own software. At the moment, desktop projects like KDE, Gnome/Ximian and Webmin can only provide insufficient configuration wrappers around low-level system tool; the only sane solution is that such GUI configuration panels are provided by the original component developers in sync with their release schedules, and will work consistently on any GUI configuration (as opposed to the present situation where a configuration panel would have to be provided in separate versions for KDE, Gnome, XFCE, webmin and what-have-you). Only at this point, GNU/Linux will be able to replace commercial end-user GUI operating systems on a large scale and be accessible to home users.

    • Which distributions will show the greatest growth in 2004?

      Contrary to what Eric S. Raymond says: The unclear situations of RedHat/Fedora and SuSE (after it has been bought by Novell) could create a strong push towards Debian as the standard binary (GNU/)Linux distribution. The Debian core distribution could become a de-facto-replacement of the disappointing "Linux Standards Base (LSB)", as more and more (commercial and community) distributions will be based Debian. Knoppix, Lindows and, in the near future, User Linux are prime examples. Debian itself will gain more acceptance in the mainstream and among new users as soon as it will ship with the new installer.

      Given the record of Netscape/Mozilla's, StarOffice/OpenOffice's and Apple Darwin's transformation of corporate into public development projects, I doubt that RedHat/Fedora will ever become a true community project. It is also being overlooked that the equation RedHat=Linux is specific to the U.S. only

    --
    gopher://cramer.plaintext.cc http://cramer.plaintext.cc:70
    1. Re:Beg to differ, my own predictions: by troop23 · · Score: 1

      Finally a post that has real thought behind it. If more of the community thought the way you do then the predictions of the chest beaters like ESR might come true a little sooner.

    2. Re:Beg to differ, my own predictions: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Servers won't be fastest growing. Here's why:

      Right now Linux server market share is maybe 25%

      So to have 100% growth in the server market ONE in THREE people who bought something else last year must buy Linux next year. Not very likely.

      However Linux desktop share is more like 1%

      So to have 100% growth in that market, only ONE in NINETY NINE of those who chose Windows last year need to choose Linux next year. Doesn't that sound more plausible? Do you know 100 PC users? Did even one of those switch to Linux this year? Do you think one might next year too?

      Fast growth only happens in markets where you have very little market share, or where the market itself is exploding. In a mature market with a mature product (Linux servers for file, print, web etc.) you don't see that lightning growth.

      One idiot I knew predicted 100% growth for Windows in the server market next year. That sounds instantly unlikely, and then you realise they have more than 50% share already. So it's not merely unlikely - it's effectively impossible for them to have 100% growth in that sector.

  69. Serious question... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    For the moderators: what exactly makes this comment "insightful"?

  70. Re:Amazing coincidences! by geoswan · · Score: 1, Offtopic
    The original version of these amazing coincidences was published in Scientific American. American educator Martin Gardner used to use his fictional alter ego, "Dr Joshua Irving Matrix", the World's Greatest Living Numerologist to poke fun at the credulous. In the quarter century that Gardner ran a Mathematical Games column in Scientific American he devoted each April column to a tongue in cheek report on some topic from the fringe of reason. Seventeen of those columns involved an interview or letter from his good friend Matrix.

    Gardner's genius deserves more respect than to be misquoted anonymously.

  71. Re:WARNING: OFFTOPIC POST IN REPLY TO OFFTOPIC POS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hello, I just wanted to let everyone know this post is an flamebait posting in response to an offtopic posting in an offtopic thread regarding the fantastically popular "goatse" website hound at http://goatse.cx. The reason is that this post is flamebait is because the parent and grandpartent posts do not realise that it is not possible to "browse below -1", browsing is done "at -1" (colloquially) or even better "with -1 set as the lower limit". The parent and grandparent authors were clearly retards. Please, any Slashdot users with moderation abilities should moderate to a score of -1, where most users of Slashdot cannot read if browsing the site with their lower limit set above -1. Please report this and every offtopic posting to the appropriate people, namely Herbert Nortbersen (aka Rob Malda). He is responsible for the content within this website and he should be alerted to such a disgraceful and disgusting post. Thanks, and happy Slsahdotting!

  72. Re:Amazing coincidences! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The guy must be a kid; he must not have understood yet the need to attribute citations to their original authors.

    If he's an adult, then he's been stupid...

  73. Oh, for God's sake. Stop the elitism. by StarKruzr · · Score: 1

    Whether it's Linux distributions, music, car mods, or anything else in its infancy, someone always feels the need to whine about it going "mainstream."

    Justify your claim that mass usage will destroy the value of the Gentoo system, please. If something is intrinsically good, it remains so no matter how many people become familiar with it.

    --

    +++ATH0
  74. I predict...some of *you* will start using Linux by Spoing · · Score: 3, Informative
    Right now, some people here are actively using OSS and/or Linux all the time...as the normal and most reasonable choice.

    In 2004, that trend will increase. If you've got a laptop, why not put Linux on it all by itself?

    OK, some of you have your reasons, though making the jump and dealing with the problems (if any) is one way to get the ball rolling. Here are two resources to help out;

    1. Linux On Mobile Computers
    2. Linux on Laptops
    --
    A firewall can not protect you from yourself. Turn off what you do not need. Do not use the firewall to do your work.
  75. AMEN!! =) by MtViewGuy · · Score: 1

    Second the linux desktop has to surpass Windows XP in usability.

    That is going to be the ONLY way that Linux will finally get the critical mass supports it needs for wide-scale desktop/laptop adoption.

    Really, Linux in the near future needs the following:

    1. True Advanced Configuration and Power Interface (ACPI) support for automated hardware detection and configuration. Hopefully, the final 2.6 kernel will incorporate this fully.

    2. Driver support for all hardware (motherboard drivers, peripheral cards, devices plugged in through the USB 1.1/2.0 and IEEE-1394 ports) at full functionality of the hardware itself.

    3. The equivalent of DirectX in Linux for easier programming of multimedia peripherals in Linux.

    4. Improvements in OpenOffice so it can truly read and write in Microsoft Office 97/2000 formats fully.

    5. Development of easy-to-use software to play back multimedia files, create new multimedia files (especially VCD, DiVX and DVD-compatible discs), and definitely easy-to-use programs to manipulate JPEG, RAW and TIFF files from digital still cameras.

    1. Re:AMEN!! =) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1. 2.6 is nice, I have no problems, but a lot of people do since some acpi controllers are buggy as fuck, don't conform to specs, or don't have details published. The best Linus et al can do is maintain a blacklist.

      2. This can only be done with manufacturer cooperation, which isn't there as they are terrified of Microsoft.

      3. SDL? GLX is there for accelerated 3D (except for NVidia with their crashy binary driver)

      4. Agreed.

      5. Right now it's hard to make those types of discs in Windows! It would be nice if someone like Nero would make a port for Linux... There are camera image programs available.

    2. Re:AMEN!! =) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      NO!!!!

      ACPI is the fault of the BIOS and motherboard manufacturers not giving out the specs to get it working.

      Do you complain that your government scientists hae still not managed to get anti-gravity personal elevators working? No? Why not? Beracues it isn't possible!

      Until the information is available, or the manufacturer gets off their collective arses and writes one themselves, ACPI will rely on hightly talented people trying to wory out what the feck is going on.

      Don't diss the programmers when they are doing a work even the owners of the technology can't manage to do!

      Really pissing me off.

  76. A common desktop is needed by Master+Of+Ninja · · Score: 1

    I like the idea of different APIs, but first there needs to be a common desktop like Mac OS where it doesn't really matter what toolkit is being used, but where it can handle both, and they will look and handle the same.

    This probably needs a base desktop API for handling things, but this would probably allow greater acceptance of a desktop linux, as users wouldn't have to be confused by KDE/Gnome differences.

  77. I predict... by The+Gline · · Score: 0

    At least one new revision to the right of the decimal point will take place in Linux!

    A major software company will release a service release of their flagship competitor operating system!

    Someone somewhere will switch from one of these operating systems to another!

    --
    Honorary Member of Jackie Chan's Kung Fu Process Servers
  78. could be the server by gregeth · · Score: 1

    Depending on the setup you're using, it may also be a factor of the server. At the university I work at we have a lab with more than adequate computers to run the latest linux distros, but have a hard time doing it, because of a poor, poor dying server. NFS isn't the best thing to implement when the server is already getting such a high load. Most likely, your lab is running NFS.

  79. Government Software for Linux by llouver · · Score: 3, Informative

    Meanwhile, while linux tries to infilitrate the government, the DoD is tyrying to infilitrate the linux. The DoD Defense Information Infrastructure Common Operating Environment is/was an initiative to to define a common software stack to run across multiple platforms that includes software installation, user management, and printing tools. When you talked about putting Linux on the DoD desktop, that used to mean having a DII COE stack for linux. This year DISA released a beta Linux COE kernel and then released the source code for it which can get from anonymous CVS. DISA has paired up with the OpenGroup to define a testable/brandable definition of COE. And there is a project to develop a platform independent COE stack from scratch.

    Relevent URLs:

    http://www.disa.mil/coe/kpc/linuxpc.html

    http://gforge.freestandards.org/projects/qp-coe

    http://www.opengroup.org/openbrand/coe

    http://opencoe.sourceforge.net

  80. Binary compatibility by Mitchell+Mebane · · Score: 1

    No. There seems to be this big delusion that somehow OpenSource has to rewrite virtually every commercial application.

    Maybe commercial companies will port to Linux!! Oh no, you say, isn't that illegal by RMS's communist manifesto? Sorry to break your fantasy, but it is legal, only Microsoft wants you to believe otherwise.

    Take a look at the special effects industry and you will see that there is lots of commercial, closed-source, for-profit software being written for Linux.

    PS: What Linux really needs is to be pre-installed on machines in a store. However it appears that Microsoft is still disallowing dual-boot machines to be sold.


    <sarcasm>Yeah, that would work fine if gcc and glibc didn't break binary compatibility every 6 months.</sarcasm>

    --

    The roots of education are bitter, but the fruit is sweet.
    --Aristotle
  81. The most common things in the universe... by jefu · · Score: 1
    ... are hydrogen and stupidity.

    And in washington, stupidity has the edge.

    Congress can vote whatever it wants into law. Sensible or not. And they often do - especially when prodded by greed and self interest. And they have powerful allies in the avaricious, supremely (and willfully) ignorant types in and about the White House.

    And what Congress does not do, the White House may impose by fiat.

    Look at the DMCA, the Communications Decency Act, the move to allow foreign born citizens to become president ("President Terminator!"), the Patriot Act, the war in Iraq (expect your children to fight there), .....

  82. Re:Oh, for God's sake. Stop the elitism. by cuban321 · · Score: 1

    I don't think mass usage will destroy Gentoo, but I don't believe Gentoo will ever really hit the main stream. As a Gentoo users myself I would never want to install it on any user machine. It takes far too long and isn't convenient. I'd rather stick to a binary distro. End users will not notice the speed difference.

    No reverse dependency check is not in yet. Portage will be a god to me when that feature becomes available.

    Daniel

  83. Won't Happen with Bush in Office by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Bush is in Microsoft's pocket.

    They are actually trying to FORCE the NSA to kill their secure Linux projet.

  84. Re:WARNING: OFFTOPIC POST IN REPLY TO OFFTOPIC POS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hello, I just wanted to let everyone know that I have nothing to add to this.

    Thanks, and happy Slashdotting!

  85. Patriotism by khasim · · Score: 1

    Patriotism means knowing that your country is better than all those other countries because it is the country you were born in.

    Patriotism means hating all those other countries that have people who don't see things the same way you do.

    Patriotism means hating all those other people in your own country that don't see things the same way you do. Those people should just leave your country and move to one of those other countries.

    A true patriot is never wrong.

    You just didn't understand what s/he said or s/he was only repeating something that someone else told him/her.

    A true patriot has no problem waving a US flag imported from China and made by prison labour.

    1. Re:Patriotism by GreyWolf3000 · · Score: 1

      Actually, to be fair, having been to China and the factories where they make stuff, it's not really prison labour. The Chinese government has a hard enough time finding jobs for citizens already.

      --
      Slashdot: Where people pretend to be twice as smart as they really are by behaving like children.
  86. PDF doesn't solve the problem by ratpick · · Score: 1

    I have considered PDF; however-- Problem #1: PDF use only addresses word processor files. What about spreadsheets? Problem #2: sure, we can send PDF files out; how do we get everyone else we do business with/need information from to use the format? Problem #3: how do we convert the huge amount of files that currently exist?

    1. Re:PDF doesn't solve the problem by Micah · · Score: 1

      Granted, PDF doesn't solve every problem, but it IS a reliable way of sending information in such a way that they can be expected to view it as intended.

      You can certainly print spreadsheets to PDF, as well as presentations.

      PDF doesn't solve the problem for people who need to pass documents back and forth and have various people editing them. For that task, everyone should use the same word processor. I recommend that people push for others to use OpenOffice in this situation, but if it is really necessary, just get MS Office. The world won't end.

      But if you do go that route, please use MSO for as little as necessary. Start using OOo for everything that doesn't need to be shared for editing.

      Getting more and more people to commit to doing that is the way we're gonna win the war against proprietary file formats.

  87. every year by notoriousE · · Score: 0

    whenever we get closer to entering a new year there are always articles about "will linux take off in 199x, 200x.." etc ... the answer is no, it's not going to happen overnight, we have a long way to go to the desktop, let's face it and stop kidding ourselves.

    --


    And then there was E
  88. Gov't by simontek2 · · Score: 0

    Actually, here in Savannah, Ga.(Hunter Army Air Field) The Army is testing linux. The Navy already uses linux.

    --
    SimonTek
  89. Yeah, let's have some realisation please by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It struggles enough to even compete with XP...

    I think you're wrong. I work in the trenches and you wanna know where a lot of my business comes from? Downgrading new systems to Win2000 or Win98SE! As a matter of fact, I just did one last night. A brand-new HP Pavilion that the buyer tried XP (pre-installed) on and decided that it just wasn't for him. The new interface was a hindrance, but even after I tuned it to look much like 98SE, he wasn't happy with the performance. Direct quote: "This 2.8 Ghz P4 with XP feels slower than the 600 Mhz PIII with Win ME that I am replacing." When he left, everything (DVD burner, multi-format flash reader and everything else) was working on win98SE.

    Some of this came from MSBlaster also. One long-time business user that I support bought a new XP desktop system, brought it up and tried to log onto the MS update site to get the latest patches. Can you guess what happened? He connected to the Internet and, BANG, before he could connect, download and execute the patches he was infected! When I explained what happened, he was immediately concerned about the other systems in his office. When I explained that they were all running 98SE and immune to the problem, he demanded that I load 98SE on the new system too. I wanted to make sure that he knew what he would be giving up, so I explained what the new features were in XP. I also explained that 98 wasn't supported by MS anymore. In the end, none of those new features were anything he gave a shit about and as for support, well, he's depended on me fot that the last few years anyway. I also managed to sell him on a Linux based firewall for his business, something that I had been telling him he needed for a couple of years now.

    Longhorn will be more of the same AND almost certainly will include forced DRM. I expect to make a lot of money.

    1. Re:Yeah, let's have some realisation please by DrXym · · Score: 1
      Viruses are another matter altogether. I am referring to the fact that Windows is for the most part plug and play, has task centric help, can play games out of the box and has a UI that covers practically everything that a user might want to configure. Replace XP with OS X if you like, but the same applies.


      Linux is nowhere near close to this. The best IMO is Fedora which has a very nice GUI - minmal, simple and effective. Combine that with SUSE's help system and we be getting somewhere. Combine that with a decent driver system and I'd say Linux would be on par with XP.


      Sadly at the current rate Windows will be on Longhorn by that time, complete with sexy graphics, even more slick UI and even more media lockin. But users won't care about that last one - they'll just see this cool OS on the one hand and this clunker on the other. If linux wants to be seen seriously it has to look like a Ferrari it is, not the rusty jalopy that most distributors seem content on putting out.

    2. Re:Yeah, let's have some realisation please by stock · · Score: 1
      " Linux is nowhere near close to this. The best IMO is Fedora which has a very nice GUI - minmal, simple and effective. Combine that with SUSE's help system and we be getting somewhere. Combine that with a decent driver system and I'd say Linux would be on par with XP. "

      What have you been smoking? Are you paid by RedHat? You know, the linux company where the CEO tells its audience to run windows @home, and for linux server one should spend $1500,= as a minimum.

      Linux is as ready for the desktop today as it technically ever can be. Its even more advanced as WinXP ever was. It only needs a couple of serious hardware manufactures which _really_ backup and support the Linux Desktop distro's by supplying decent driver support.

      Why do you think hardware manufactures are reluctant to supply Linux drivers? Could it not be the case that certain contracts they signed with a large software company mandates them to do so?

      Robert

    3. Re:Yeah, let's have some realisation please by davegust · · Score: 1

      You should be ashamed that you've encouraged people to switch from an NT based OS to a DOS based UI. You should know better, and I suspect you've done it to enslave them to your support costs. Anyone who thinks 95, 98, or ME is a more reliable solution than 2000 or XP is clearly ignorant and not suited to give advise on Windows computing. I suggest your Blaster victim should have purchased an inexpensive firewall instead wasting his money on your misguided services.

    4. Re:Yeah, let's have some realisation please by DrXym · · Score: 1
      What are you smoking?

      Fedora is a nice GUI, nicer than either of SUSE or Mandrake simply because someone has obviously put the effort into fixing the deficiencies that most other dists suffer from. Not just subtle deficiencies, but obvious ones. I don't have any bias towards Red Hat, in fact I installed Mandrake and SUSE before Fedora. . All I wanted was an OS that could work with a 4 year old Dell laptop, a Xircom Realport LAN/56k card and a Netgear MA401 wireless card. It shouldn't be rocket science. The good news was all three installed, the bad news was Mandrake and SUSE were severely lacking because neither detected the wireless card and neither saw fit to give me a useable desktop either.

      For example SUSE 8.2 has a terrible dialler which after fruitlessly trying to get working for a couple of hours, I discovered I had to check some "Stupid Mode" option in the sluggish Yast tool- well that's intuitive. Even after sorting that out,I found the modem icon on the KDE panel just drops the call if you click on it. It doesn't even prompt you(or even have a preference to prompt you) - it just drops the call whether the click was accidental or not. And my wireless card could have been a lump of inert matter as far as SUSE was concerned. And the deskop uses the derided and idiotic icons-are-hyperlinks-single-click-to-launch behaviour which was dumped by MS in the days of IE4/Win95 because it was so unusable. And the default SUSE window theme set the resize area for windows to 0 or 1 pixels making it near impossible to resize a window.

      And Mandrake has the most slapdash shoddy tools of any major dist. It's worse than SUSE in almost every way. The drak tools aren't even consistent in behaviour with each other let alone the rest of the desktop.

      By contrast Fedora came as a breath of fresh air. The desktop behaves sanely out of the box, and it detected my hardware and made it easy to configure them. Aside from some screwing around trying to use WEP128 with the wireless, it all worked fine. This is not due to GNOME vs KDE, but simply because Fedora is polished and simple. The configuration tools look consistent with the rest of the system and do with simple dialogs what it takes Drak / Yast require multiple screen hogging windows to do.

      As for the driver issue, the reason that there are so few is obvious (so obvious I wonder why you can't see it). There are umpteen distributions, each at umpteen version releases and each release has umpteen kernels for SMP, intel, athlon, security fixes etc. Throw in various packaging systems (rpm, apt, deb, shell scripts), various security umasks, various gcc compiler versions (or no toolchain at all) and you have a recipe for disaster. You try writing and supporting a driver for potentially hundreds of different configurations.I pity an OEM trying to produce a driver on Linux. Frankly it is a wonder that any can even be bothered with it just to appease a vocal and whining minority. All that would change if the dist makers rallied around a binary level driver API, installation mechanism and QA lab which ensured a single driver worked on all dists, and all kernels for some major release such as the 2.6.x kernel. That is what is required and you're living in cloud cuckoo land if you think its for any other reason (e.g. evil corporate conspiracies). Hardware manufacturers would be delighted to support Linux if the effort weren't so disproportionate to the number of users.

      In summary if you think Linux is ready for the desktop you are simply deluded. It might be ready for use where there is a system administrator or expert hanging overhead to install and fix it, but not in the general sense.Step back, take a deep breath and accept some constructive criticism eh? I remember people with the same indignant attitude about OS/2 and the Amiga and look where it got them.

  90. Re:Linux ego by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    and like most homemade projects (ie beer) while it tastes nice, it will always seem to have something wrong with it.

    Totally unlike those professional proprietary projects which always work perfectly, eh? Frankly, as a user of both Windows and Debian Linux, Windows was always the one that came off looking like an amateur job.

  91. In Honor of Linux by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The GNU should be renamed to:
    GNL
    which means:
    GNUs Not Linux

    *kidding*

  92. US is not socialist? Sez who! by Malcontent · · Score: 1

    The congress is on the verge of passing prescription drug benefits. This will represent the biggest expantion of discretionary spending by the federal govt since the new deal. A permanent entitlement program attached to medicare!.

    The Bush administration has also created an entire federal dept (homeland secutiry). This was also the largest expansion of govt payroll since the new deal.

    Where do you get off saying the US is not a socialist govt? Medicare, medicade. social security, subsidies for every known industry, steel tarrifs, the list goes on and on.

    --

    War is necrophilia.

    1. Re:US is not socialist? Sez who! by 3rdParty · · Score: 1

      Socialist government is more than increased gov't spending. Socialist systems the world over heavily tax their citizens, maintain strict control over the behavior of business, and typically control the infrastructure, such as communications, transportation, natural resources, and power generation and distribution. So the USA isn't a socialist government pretending it isn't, it isn't a socialist government. Do a little research before posting, and your comments will contain much more truth and much less misinformed opinion.

    2. Re:US is not socialist? Sez who! by Rimbo · · Score: 1
      Where do you get off saying the US is not a socialist govt?


      I think the real question is... where did I say that it isn't one?

    3. Re:US is not socialist? Sez who! by anarxia · · Score: 1

      No country is purely socialist or purely capitalist. It doesn't work. For example, if education was entirely up to corporations ...do I need to explain how bad would that be?

      The US is a capitalist country because it is mostly capitalist and medicare is a joke compared to other western countries.
    4. Re:US is not socialist? Sez who! by Herschel+Cohen · · Score: 1

      Well if you have wealth and influence and encounter problems (particularly if you are a large corporation) the U.S.A. can be very socialist.

      For the run-of-the-mill citizen, it is a capitalist society.

      [Regarding Medicare's (radical) changes: why was it hatched in secret with only the Republicans deciding how to construct this legislation? Why the hurry? Why does it not go into effect for three years? Why were some in congress sold on this piece of legislation being assured this will end social security?]

      Regarding Home Land Security - didn't that rabid socialist Hitler have a similarly named department?

    5. Re:US is not socialist? Sez who! by Malcontent · · Score: 1

      Huh? The US does not tax it's citizens heavily? It does not maintain strict control over business?, it does not control infrastructure such as communications, transportation and natural resources? When did the power generation and distribution get fully privatized? Did I miss something?

      --

      War is necrophilia.

  93. Linux won't succeed on the desktop by Hexydes · · Score: 1
    You know why? Because none of you wants to pay for your software. Sure, a few of you might, but honestly ask yourself, have you bought a copy of Linux? Or did you just download the ISO? What is the main advantage of Linux? Stability? No, Windows XP is, for the most part, very stable (don't give me your personal story about BSD and everything else, XP is pretty stable). Security? Sure, Linux is a bit more secure, but it doesn't mean that Windows isn't secure. Remember, Windows has 95% of the desktop users in the world. Why would someone want to spend time writing viruses for an OS that only have 2% of all users? If Linux were bigger, some more viruses and security issues would pop up.

    So what is Linux's main selling point? Price. Namely, Linux costs nothing, unless you feel like donating money to the distributor in the form of buying the retail version of their distro. The problem: nobody does this. Just look at any of the distros. Lycoris is having problems making money. Mandrake had to go chapter 11 because of sales. Redhat had to stop their desktop distro and concentrate only on servers. When people look to use Linux, they don't look at it (mainly) for its security, or its stability, they look at it because its free. Which is good for them, but bad for the company that has to make the distro.

    Until you people are willing to put some capital investment into Linux distros, Microsoft is going to be able to keep Linux under its thumb.

  94. Re:WARNING GAY OFFTOPIC PORN POST ABOVE!!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Because that would be censorship, you little Hitler.

    Go off and terrorize somewhere else.

  95. Re:Oh, for God's sake. Stop the elitism. by saskwach · · Score: 2, Insightful
    That claim was pretty well justified. The poster said that mass usage would mess up the community, a feature of gentoo they appreciate. This doesn't seem all that ridiculous to me, since everything gets less personal as it gets bigger. Obviously, as far as technical issues go, mass usage of Gentoo would only increase the developer base and improve the system. However, I have to agree that this is pretty unlikely since the number of person-hours necessary to set up a fully optimised gentoo farm over a binary distro like, say, debian or RH, is going to be significantly larger than the difference in performance for almost all corporations. This is especially true in cases where the corporation is getting new computers every year or two and so there's even less time to recoup the lost time with a little added speed.

    As with everyone before me, I'm not saying Gentoo's bad, just that it is unlikely to catch on in large corporate scenarios.

  96. Buy a bigger mouse by dbIII · · Score: 1
    copy and paste from one app in X to another
    Get a mouse with three buttons, then use the middle one.

    That said, some programs that are badly designed don't support that.

  97. How is this "insightful?" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Genuinely curious to know what insight this post gives.

  98. Irony will still exist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    10) certen people
    9) people still won't spell well on slashdot

    gewg_

  99. Re:simply copy and paste from one app in X ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    RobLimo touched on this in his tongue-in-cheek Windoze Install/Use article on Newsforge
    --except that he had it backwards.

    IMO, marking text should not automatically put it into the Clipboard.

    Under Windoze, it's nice to be able to mark a block, then hit Ctrl-V to replace it with what is waiting in the Clipboard.

  100. Re:personally, i hope they can look at Desktop Lin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you are concerned about Java performance, you should really check out Sun JDK 1.4.2 running on RedHat 9. The thread performance difference from RedHat 7.3 is outstanding, especially for heavily threaded applications.

    Check it out:

    http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/technica lA rticles/JavaTechandLinux/RedHat/

    There is also a good white paper about the the new threading library available as a URL at the bottom of the sun page.

  101. Re: It's got nothing to do with elitism. by binary+paladin · · Score: 1

    I never said it would destroy the "Gentoo system." I was in reference to the community. Their forums are one of the BEST and FRIENDLIEST places to get info. The other nice thing is it is very... well... "community" feeling. I answer questions and I get questions answered for me.

    Mix in a ton of corps and do you think they're going to hang around and help? It'll make things more impersonal.

    I'm not saying it would be the end of Gentoo, I'm simply stating that I believe it would ruin the community. Perhaps not though. I guess I can't see some IT suit in his office posting with any kind of avatar to speak of or being noted as "Tux's lil' helper."

    This is also not a matter of "elitism." I don't think I'm "better" than anyone. I don't use Gentoo because I'm "1337" or because compiling everything from source somehow makes me more "advanced" or "intelligent." I use it because I like the way their boot scripts are arranged and as far as package management goes I like Portage because I like having the newest software and don't like waiting for other people to pack the binaries. It's more a matter of convenience than anything else.

    It's fun to have things niche. It's fun to have them smaller and more personal. It's nice to be able to talk to the developers directly as normal people. Technologically speaking, numbers won't hurt it. But socially and community speaking I think it will. I could be wrong.

    The other thing is this, perhaps it's not so much a matter of numbers but rather a matter of who those numbers are. Gentoo's grown a lot since I picked it up last Octoberish but it's still very friendly. It's full of freaks who run the newest software and like top have beta kernels on their machines. So, if it increases in people like that, cool.

    I just hate when a distro tries to be all things to all people because it loses its focus. It's like those multifuntion printer/scanner/fax things in your office that do all things poorly.

    Of course, as long as Gentoo's method of install remains as is it'll never be corporate IT stuff and most Joe Six-packs will leave it alone.

  102. In the year Two-Thousand by MindNumbingOblivion · · Score: 1

    Join me and Tux as we look into the future...all the way to the year....2000.

    [cue wierd lights and insanely high pitched band member]

    In the year two thousaaaaaaaand.....

    MindNumbingOblivion: Having been summoned to appear for the SCO vs. Creation trial, Linus Torvalds will present compelling evidence that his foes are, in fact, actually "smoking crack".

    In the year two thousuuuuuuund.....

    Tux: Comic persona Opus and Linux mascot Tux will become god-emperors of bands of rival fanatical penguins. War will ensue until at the pivotal moment it is discovered that the war arises from fowl trickery at the hands of those dratted humans, at which time man will cease being the dominant species on the earth.

    [/blatant ripoff of Late Show gag]

    --
    #define CLUE 0
  103. Let us dream and hope by doubble+a · · Score: 1

    I really hope more for Linux in 2004 perhaps we can see some countries adopting the open source system for their desktops, or even a state... personally I think the triumph that it's use in home and office settings is going up is grand to it's self.

    --
    "How I envy those with a stunning ignorance of the truth. "sigh" oh to be truly happy... to be an imbicle." ~Wobbyhead B
  104. Re:Linux ego by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Unfortunately, I know of several people who will only eat canned fruit, because the "uncanned" "version" does not taste as good (not enough sugar)!

  105. Exactly... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Corporations like dealing with corporations, it's that simple.

    Exactly. Some people seem to forget that in business, people don't use an operating system because it's nice and sexy but because it saves them money and it runs the required applications. Any distro without commercial-grade 24/7 support level agreements, certified hardware, and strong ISV backing will not make it into corporate data centers except in small niches, and people don't use for example Red Hat as a database server and Gentoo or Debian for everything else because that drives support costs up. So, in a nutshell, all these discussions about which OS should be used are bogus. As always, it is application-driven.

  106. More fake posts by spitzak · · Score: 1

    Copy & paste works. You use ctrl+x and ctrl+v to do it. These are the same keys as in most Windows programs. The only program of importance where it does not work is the terminal emulator, where it doesn't work on Windows, either!

    (There is also the middle-mouse "drag & drop" which was put into X to make it usable for terminals. Even the first version of X was designed to do clipboard operations, through "Cut Buffers". It appears the middle-mouse is really quite convienent, and also the fact that it was the only thing that worked in the terminal, led a lot of people, including programmers, to think it is the only mechanism available. This made some people (including me) to try to emulate ctrl+x/v by using the same buffer as the middle mouse, leading to the broken behavior about 5 years ago (it would have been better to have clipboard not work at all). However this has been corrected in all modern programs and toolkits)

    This endless repetition of "copy and paste" indicates to me that a number of posts out there are working off a script. There certainly are problems with the Linux desktop, but plain "copy and paste" is not one of them, especially to a "new user" who would never even figure out how to run a program old enough to not have copy and paste (the complaint is similar to complaining that copy and paste does not work on Windows when you run Lotus 123). The endless repetition of this statement plus the apparent inability of the same posters to name any other problem leads me to believe that this is scripted by non-Linux users.

    Hint for the scripted posters: you can update the script to say "copy and paste anything other than text". This is an area where Windows is certainly better, mostly because the morons working on X built a mechanism but refused to assign a few predefined numbers to mean "an image" or "rich text".

    1. Re:More fake posts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >this is scripted by non-Linux users
      Not scripted, but yes.

      >copy and paste does not work on Windows when you run Lotus 123
      Every window under the M$ GUI--even when running my old DOS text editor--has largely-usable (won't scroll, but hey) Mark/Copy/Paste icons attached to the window.

      >especially to a "new user"
      >This is an area where Windows is certainly better
      I am NOT an early adopter of anything. I like mature technology--let others suffer with teething pains.
      As has been said in another thread, until there is a feature-for-feature replacement for MS Exchange,
      Linux won't break thru to the masses (I use Moz, not Outbreak Express but I know it's still true).
      Not having to re-create data and not having to re-learn stuff we alreay know is important.
      Just as WINE re-implements existing Win32 APIs,
      Linux equalivants of apps must retain a familiar (Windoze) look & feel.

      >you can update the script to say "copy and paste anything other than text"
      Thank you for this bit; it brings me 1 step closer to adopting OSS. Once the Install/Update thing is clean enough for Grandma, it's on its way to prime time.

      gewg_ (the same guy as #7544145)

    2. Re:More fake posts by spitzak · · Score: 1

      Every window under the M$ GUI--even when running my old DOS text editor--has largely-usable (won't scroll, but hey) Mark/Copy/Paste icons attached to the window.

      I have never seen this. Start/Run/"command.exe" produced an 80x24 line window with no buttons.

      Besides it is not ctrl+x and ctrl+v. Are you seriously saying that if some (not all) Linux programs put buttons marked "copy" and "paste" on the window border, it would be user friendly?

    3. Re:More fake posts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >Are you seriously saying that if some (not all) Linux programs put buttons marked "copy" and "paste"

      Not at all, and that's not what I said--or at least what I meant to say.
      DOS boxes have the buttons on their frames; this is a function of the Window Manager--not the apps.
      Data is clipped to a universally-accessible clipboard.
      That was the gripe of the parent post:
      the lack of a truly common buffer in the X Window system under Linux.

      gewg_

  107. Things that may happen in 2004... by jonadab · · Score: 1

    * Perl6 won't come out, but several Apocalypse and Exegesis articles will, and
    we'll get all excited about waiting with baited breath for Perl6 to come out
    some future year.
    * The 2.6 series Linux kernels will have a number of important patches.
    * Sun will continue to hype Java, and Microsoft will continue to hype .NET,
    but few people will adopt either of them that haven't done so already.
    * gcc 2.x will begin to see serious disuse as 3.x pretty much takes over.
    * People will start talking about features that will be in Emacs 22.
    * Some of the features being developed at xserver.freedesktop.org will make
    it into a major distro but will be optional and probably not the default.
    * A major ISP will threaten to adopt Mozilla technology, forcing Microsoft
    to strongly reiterate their promise to update MSIE to block popups.
    * A major desktop vendor will ship low-end systems aimed at consumers with
    an office suite built on OpenOffice.org technology.
    * A major desktop vendor will announce a total discontinuance of systems
    with "legacy" ports, saying that they're going over entirely to USB, but
    the "legacy-free" systems will continue to flop in the marketplace and the
    vendor will retract their position and continue to ship systems with
    RS232, parallel, and PS/2 ports, on the grounds that they still want to
    turn a profit.
    * A "luggable" laptop will be released with an 18" viewable screen.
    It will have one hardware component (probably a NIC or modem) that
    doesn't support Linux initially.
    * Macromedia will release a Linux version of one of their programs that
    was previously unavailable for Linux. Nobody much will care, but slashdot
    will get at least three stories out of it.
    * Apple will announce Mac OS X 10.4, with redesigned box art, changes to
    Finder, synced with a newer version of BSD, a newer Apache, and assorted
    minor improvements to the GUI. People will complain about having to pay
    for the upgrade, but it'll get great reviews. My best guess for the
    codename is "Wildcat". People will switch to it, mostly from earlier
    versions of Mac OS X, but some from other systems as well.
    * The SCO thing will not be over by the end of 2004, but we *will* be
    tired of hearing about it.

    --
    Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
    1. Re:Things that may happen in 2004... by jo42 · · Score: 1

      > A "luggable" laptop will be released

      We're getting there: http://www.go-l.com/laptops/

      2048x1536 screen, 7200 RPM HD, 3.2GHz P4EE. Only about $7000 US pesos...