Actually I found a graph.
Remember you were claiming in 2010...
If I'm extremely generous and use 4000 from 2014.
And 500 from 2007
Also ignoring renewables and nuclear.
Way overestimating/underestimating in your favour. It turns out to be about 89% fossil (but really a few % less than that). Based on that graph, there is no way it could possibly be more than 90% like you claimed.
Windy - 8 years of lying about Chinese coal.
You immediately jumped in and claimed my number was a lie. But still didn't show where your number came from.
Both your links are either broken or don't point to where you claim they do...(intentional? who knows)
Here is the actual thread from 2010
I obviously didn't read the whole thread, just searched for you and coal and China and found this
China probably has the most at more than 90% Fossil Fueled (and growing). America is less than 50% Coal (and dropping)
Maybe it's completely out of context, it's possible.
But it shows you were complaining about Chinese coal, praising America, and didn't show any evidence. Even back then 8 years ago.
Wikipedia says 78% coal for 2010 and you were saying 90%+ for 'fossil fuels' It's possible you were right, but based on current events, unlikely. They must have had some non trivial amount of hydro back then.
And then off you go again, calling me a liar with nothing to back it up with. And you still claim I don't show any evidence, laughable.
There is no need for you to answer me Windy.
You keep posting your bullshit, I'll keep pointing it out. I'll be glad you will stop calling me a liar and a Chinese paid troll. Win / win as far as I'm concerned. You add nothing of value anyway.
And now the entitlement comes out.
Whaaa, I used to be able to post lie after lie, no one asked me where my numbers came from before. Why should I change now.
Let those poor developing posters show facts and evidence. I'm already an established bullshitter, I'm already used to it.
Really Windy, people used to just believe all your numbers instead of asking you to show where they came from?
Must be a sad time indeed for you to finally have to be accountable for your rubbish.
Yes China up, yadda yadd, America down blah blah, but even after those 28 years you are still over twice China's per capita emissions...
Show where I said coal is as clean as nat gas... You can't because I didn't...
Again what evidence do you have for China wanting to burn all of their coal? All of their 5 year plans suggest the exact opposite. Their decreasing coal consumption since 2013 wold indicate you are living in your own fantasy world.
If the whole world was like India, what would happen?
If the whole world was like China, what would happen?
If the whole world was like America, what would happen?
The world would be saved, but we would all be shitting in fields.
The world would struggle on as everyone tried to cut back.
The would would basically already be destroyed...
You constantly call me a liar, but have still failed to show a single time I did.
You would think by now you would have found at least one. Then you could just link to it and people would believe you. Why haven't you?
Hardly seems credible for you to not show one, since you claim they are so common.
You didn't say it was theoretically possible based on 3-4km. When someone mentioned Japan would need a 5 year feasibility study, you said it was 'already done regularly' at 5km despite the article itself mentioning the study...
Why not link to even 1?
Link to even 3-4km if that is the best you can do...
Otherwise it's just more baseless claims from you.
So you don't remember where the numbers came from? But that they may be a guess 3 years ago. Did you pull the number from your own ass or pull it from those 'others' asses.
At least link to any site you think may be able to justify the 75% you claimed. Jesus show a range even. Find any site to show 70-80 if you like. Then we can check how credible they are, to know how credible you are (not very for those playing along at home).
It most certainly does matter.
You keep claiming I'm lying even when I show where my info comes from. You claim you are telling the truth, but can't even show us where it came from.
Are you intentionally using extremely outdated info to 'make a case' or did you really just make up what suits your narrative.
However, coal as a proportion of China's energy mix peaked at 75% in the late 1980s and by 2016 it had fallen to 62%, the lowest since the establishment of the People's Republic in 1949.
Is this your 75%? The highest level ever, back in the 80's?
Yet you have still failed to show a single time I did.
You would think by now you would have found at least one. Then you could just link to it and people would believe you. Why haven't you?
Hardly seems credible for you to not show one, since you claim they are so common.
So where is the link?
Is there no link because you just made it up? Or does the link instead show that I was right, and you did indeed claim various different numbers seemingly as if you were pulling them from your ass.
You have 'friends' telling you all your numbers do you? Are you CIA or something and are unable to show your 'sources'?
You mean the path that leads to American levels of pollution?
You entitled asshole, how about you drop your levels down to theirs if you think your levels are a problem?
I just showed you per person America uses more coal electricity than China, and you already know Chinese coal is more eficient, yours is worse the Europes. But you still claim Chinese coal is the problem and you are the good guys.
Two people use the same language... English...
And maybe live in similar timezones, well there is only 2billion+ people that live in the same similar timezones. Since we are Chinese trolls working for the Chinese government...
Why you constantly call me a liar, but have still failed to show a single time I did.
You would think by now you would have found at least one. Then you could just link to it and people would believe you. Why haven't you?
Hardly seems credible for you to not show one, since you claim they are so common.
The shop has to stay open, why would you want to pay 2 people if you didn't have to?
Why have 2 shifts of widget makers if you can just make the first work longer etc. (of course the reason is productivity, but don't tell them that, they are already stealing all our jobs)
Yes, Americans use way way more energy than Chinese. That's the point.
Your "point" is a well known fact which nobody disputes? Cool. What's the point of your point?
The point isn't that they use more, but that they use way way so much more. So much more that all their rhetoric about being greener than China just isn't true.
It's likely not that well known. I didn't know until I saw the evidence and double checked to make sure. I'm sure all the people pointing fingers at Chinese coal didn't know.
Did you know? Windy found it so unexpected He accused me of lying and making it up. And he thinks of himself as some kind of expert on these things.
Even though America has cleaner energy, they still use more coal per person just because of how much energy they use.
The other said of the coin is that even though Chinese use dirty energy compared to America, they don't use nearly as much of it per person.
The difference being that Chinese power consumption is increasing dramatically as they upscale their economy, while american power usage is comparatively holding steady... AND Chinese are building more coal power plants while the US is mostly decommissioning them.
Yes, increasing from a very low level. America is holding steady at a very high level. Why is that a bad point for China and not the US? China's percentage of energy they get from coal has been decreasing in the decade that you haven't been paying attention to. And will continue to. They are installing more renewables than coal, and coal actually peaked back in 2013.
Nobody is arguing that China produces more emissions per person; you're the only one who seems interested in that strawman. People are pointing out that Chinese pollute more per unit of energy produced. When you project for the growth of their economy you can easily see why this would be a concern. If current trends continue, the US is going to continue reducing emissions while China continues drastically increasing. In a few decades Chinese pollution could completely eclipse the rest of the modern world put together.
Many people are falling into the trap of just comparing country to country with no regard to the sizes of the countries. Should America produce the same total CO2 as Canada?
Again are you surprised that a fast growing economy building massive amounts of infrastructure, that is also the manufacturer to the world, and has over a billion more people than America is more polluting?
Polluting more per unit of energy is a meaningless number without considering what that energy is doing. You could double your energy with 100% renewables, halving your pollution per unit of energy, and then use all that extra energy to fire a gigantic laser into space or see how much ice you could melt. Actual pollution would be identical.
China is using it's energy to build infrastructure, bring hundreds of millions of people out of poverty and into a middle-class. Manufacturing things for the whole world like solar panels and windmills. Rich countries are using their energy for driving their SUV's heating and cooling their massive homes. Is it necessary for American households to use 8x the electricity as Chinese ones?
China is already leveling off and becoming greener, it's extremely unlikely they will reach US levels. Even if they did reach US levels (for arguments sake), why is it China's problem and not the US's? Why should America be entitled to a free pass? They should both be trying to be greener, but the US has a long way further to go.
What if the sizes were reversed. And America was 4x bigger than China...America would be producing 4x what it is now, and China would be 1/4 the size producing 1/4. In that scenario America would be 32x more polluting. Would everyone still be pointing their fingers
You have a good point. I have no idea how widespread it is or why anyone would care.
Obviously some people do. They wouldn't need to hold a press conference or put it on the front page or anything. But somewhere standard and out of the way would do. The conspiracy nutters then wouldn't have a leg to stand on, and no one who wasn't actually looking for it would ever know, or care most likely.
It's unfortunate, but you appear to have just stumbled into something not completely relevant to the article, I apologise for being slightly off-topic. Windy has a nasty habit of calling me a liar without any evidence. So recently I've been pointing out some of his lies when I get the time. The per capita thing is part of that and his ongoing smear campaign against me.
I'll address your other post when I get home later.
Or is this just another of your lies where you grabbed a table, changed the header, put in some false values for china and America, and then think that ppl will not notice that you are lying?
That's funny coming from the king of lies himself. It came from that that coal tracking site you mentioned a few times.
Where did your 75% number come from again...?
That's right, your ass I forgot...
Yes, Americans use way way more energy than Chinese. That's the point.
Even though America has cleaner energy, they still use more coal per person just because of how much energy they use.
The other said of the coin is that even though Chinese use dirty energy compared to America, they don't use nearly as much of it per person.
One person in America is responsible for more CO2 from electric coal power than one person in China.
Slashdot Mirror
If only I had 50c for every time you lied Windy...
I'd be rich.
And entitled to pollute as much as you do.
Actually I found a graph. Remember you were claiming in 2010...
If I'm extremely generous and use 4000 from 2014.
And 500 from 2007
Also ignoring renewables and nuclear.
Way overestimating/underestimating in your favour. It turns out to be about 89% fossil (but really a few % less than that).
Based on that graph, there is no way it could possibly be more than 90% like you claimed.
Windy - 8 years of lying about Chinese coal.
Firstly, in this very thread in the middle of your constant baseless accusations of my lying I asked calmly.
Where did you find your 75% coal number from Windy?
And showed a more useful calculation.
You immediately jumped in and claimed my number was a lie. But still didn't show where your number came from.
Both your links are either broken or don't point to where you claim they do...(intentional? who knows) Here is the actual thread from 2010 I obviously didn't read the whole thread, just searched for you and coal and China and found this
China probably has the most at more than 90% Fossil Fueled (and growing). America is less than 50% Coal (and dropping)
Maybe it's completely out of context, it's possible.
But it shows you were complaining about Chinese coal, praising America, and didn't show any evidence. Even back then 8 years ago.
Wikipedia says 78% coal for 2010 and you were saying 90%+ for 'fossil fuels' It's possible you were right, but based on current events, unlikely. They must have had some non trivial amount of hydro back then.
And then off you go again, calling me a liar with nothing to back it up with. And you still claim I don't show any evidence, laughable.
There is no need for you to answer me Windy.
You keep posting your bullshit, I'll keep pointing it out. I'll be glad you will stop calling me a liar and a Chinese paid troll. Win / win as far as I'm concerned. You add nothing of value anyway.
How many elements on the periodic table?
How many stars on the American flag?
What's the world population?
How many countries are there?
Things change, get over it.
No, he admitted he was incorrect and even thanked you.
The opposite of what you do Windy.
When someone points out your 'mistakes' you immediately jump up and down screaming liar liar..
But it's your pants that are on fire Windy.
And now the entitlement comes out.
Whaaa, I used to be able to post lie after lie, no one asked me where my numbers came from before. Why should I change now.
Let those poor developing posters show facts and evidence. I'm already an established bullshitter, I'm already used to it.
Really Windy, people used to just believe all your numbers instead of asking you to show where they came from?
Must be a sad time indeed for you to finally have to be accountable for your rubbish.
Yes China up, yadda yadd, America down blah blah, but even after those 28 years you are still over twice China's per capita emissions...
Show where I said coal is as clean as nat gas... You can't because I didn't...
Again what evidence do you have for China wanting to burn all of their coal? All of their 5 year plans suggest the exact opposite. Their decreasing coal consumption since 2013 wold indicate you are living in your own fantasy world.
If the whole world was like India, what would happen?
If the whole world was like China, what would happen?
If the whole world was like America, what would happen?
The world would be saved, but we would all be shitting in fields. .
The world would struggle on as everyone tried to cut back
The would would basically already be destroyed...
Is 2010 far enough back to count as years?
You constantly call me a liar, but have still failed to show a single time I did.
You would think by now you would have found at least one. Then you could just link to it and people would believe you. Why haven't you?
Hardly seems credible for you to not show one, since you claim they are so common.
You didn't say it was theoretically possible based on 3-4km. When someone mentioned Japan would need a 5 year feasibility study, you said it was 'already done regularly' at 5km despite the article itself mentioning the study...
Why not link to even 1?
Link to even 3-4km if that is the best you can do...
Otherwise it's just more baseless claims from you.
So you don't remember where the numbers came from? But that they may be a guess 3 years ago. Did you pull the number from your own ass or pull it from those 'others' asses.
At least link to any site you think may be able to justify the 75% you claimed. Jesus show a range even. Find any site to show 70-80 if you like. Then we can check how credible they are, to know how credible you are (not very for those playing along at home).
It most certainly does matter.
You keep claiming I'm lying even when I show where my info comes from. You claim you are telling the truth, but can't even show us where it came from.
Are you intentionally using extremely outdated info to 'make a case' or did you really just make up what suits your narrative.
If i put China 75% coal into google I mostly see good things.
Like this
However, coal as a proportion of China's energy mix peaked at 75% in the late 1980s and by 2016 it had fallen to 62%, the lowest since the establishment of the People's Republic in 1949.
Is this your 75%? The highest level ever, back in the 80's?
Yet you have still failed to show a single time I did.
You would think by now you would have found at least one. Then you could just link to it and people would believe you. Why haven't you?
Hardly seems credible for you to not show one, since you claim they are so common.
So where is the link?
Is there no link because you just made it up? Or does the link instead show that I was right, and you did indeed claim various different numbers seemingly as if you were pulling them from your ass.
You have 'friends' telling you all your numbers do you? Are you CIA or something and are unable to show your 'sources'?
You mean the path that leads to American levels of pollution?
You entitled asshole, how about you drop your levels down to theirs if you think your levels are a problem?
I just showed you per person America uses more coal electricity than China, and you already know Chinese coal is more eficient, yours is worse the Europes. But you still claim Chinese coal is the problem and you are the good guys. Two people use the same language... English...
And maybe live in similar timezones, well there is only 2billion+ people that live in the same similar timezones. Since we are Chinese trolls working for the Chinese government...
Why you constantly call me a liar, but have still failed to show a single time I did.
You would think by now you would have found at least one. Then you could just link to it and people would believe you. Why haven't you?
Hardly seems credible for you to not show one, since you claim they are so common.
The shop has to stay open, why would you want to pay 2 people if you didn't have to?
Why have 2 shifts of widget makers if you can just make the first work longer etc. (of course the reason is productivity, but don't tell them that, they are already stealing all our jobs)
What! they haven't started yet? You said it was done regularly, and that the 5 km underwater mine should be cheaper and easier than ground based...
Not as curious as to why you constantly call me a liar, but have still failed to show a single time I did.
You would think by now you would have found at least one. Then you could just link to it and people would believe you. Why haven't you?
Hardly seems credible for you to not show one, since you claim they are so common.
Yes, Americans use way way more energy than Chinese. That's the point.
Your "point" is a well known fact which nobody disputes? Cool. What's the point of your point?
The point isn't that they use more, but that they use way way so much more. So much more that all their rhetoric about being greener than China just isn't true.
It's likely not that well known. I didn't know until I saw the evidence and double checked to make sure. I'm sure all the people pointing fingers at Chinese coal didn't know.
Did you know? Windy found it so unexpected He accused me of lying and making it up. And he thinks of himself as some kind of expert on these things.
Even though America has cleaner energy, they still use more coal per person just because of how much energy they use. The other said of the coin is that even though Chinese use dirty energy compared to America, they don't use nearly as much of it per person.
The difference being that Chinese power consumption is increasing dramatically as they upscale their economy, while american power usage is comparatively holding steady ... AND Chinese are building more coal power plants while the US is mostly decommissioning them.
Yes, increasing from a very low level. America is holding steady at a very high level. Why is that a bad point for China and not the US? China's percentage of energy they get from coal has been decreasing in the decade that you haven't been paying attention to. And will continue to. They are installing more renewables than coal, and coal actually peaked back in 2013.
Nobody is arguing that China produces more emissions per person; you're the only one who seems interested in that strawman. People are pointing out that Chinese pollute more per unit of energy produced. When you project for the growth of their economy you can easily see why this would be a concern. If current trends continue, the US is going to continue reducing emissions while China continues drastically increasing. In a few decades Chinese pollution could completely eclipse the rest of the modern world put together.
Many people are falling into the trap of just comparing country to country with no regard to the sizes of the countries. Should America produce the same total CO2 as Canada?
Again are you surprised that a fast growing economy building massive amounts of infrastructure, that is also the manufacturer to the world, and has over a billion more people than America is more polluting?
Polluting more per unit of energy is a meaningless number without considering what that energy is doing. You could double your energy with 100% renewables, halving your pollution per unit of energy, and then use all that extra energy to fire a gigantic laser into space or see how much ice you could melt. Actual pollution would be identical.
China is using it's energy to build infrastructure, bring hundreds of millions of people out of poverty and into a middle-class. Manufacturing things for the whole world like solar panels and windmills. Rich countries are using their energy for driving their SUV's heating and cooling their massive homes. Is it necessary for American households to use 8x the electricity as Chinese ones?
China is already leveling off and becoming greener, it's extremely unlikely they will reach US levels. Even if they did reach US levels (for arguments sake), why is it China's problem and not the US's? Why should America be entitled to a free pass? They should both be trying to be greener, but the US has a long way further to go.
What if the sizes were reversed. And America was 4x bigger than China...America would be producing 4x what it is now, and China would be 1/4 the size producing 1/4. In that scenario America would be 32x more polluting. Would everyone still be pointing their fingers
It is one thing to depend on an alley
Don't depend on alleys, they're much too narrow. Build decent infrastructure like China.
You have a good point. I have no idea how widespread it is or why anyone would care.
Obviously some people do. They wouldn't need to hold a press conference or put it on the front page or anything. But somewhere standard and out of the way would do. The conspiracy nutters then wouldn't have a leg to stand on, and no one who wasn't actually looking for it would ever know, or care most likely.
They don't have addresses?
It's unfortunate, but you appear to have just stumbled into something not completely relevant to the article, I apologise for being slightly off-topic. Windy has a nasty habit of calling me a liar without any evidence. So recently I've been pointing out some of his lies when I get the time. The per capita thing is part of that and his ongoing smear campaign against me.
I'll address your other post when I get home later.
Or is this just another of your lies where you grabbed a table, changed the header, put in some false values for china and America, and then think that ppl will not notice that you are lying?
That's funny coming from the king of lies himself. It came from that that coal tracking site you mentioned a few times.
Where did your 75% number come from again...?
That's right, your ass I forgot...
America continues to shut ours down
Clearly not fast enough if you are still using more than China, who you have been ranting about for years.
Your mind wasn't necessarily blown. But Windy still fails to understand...
Yes, Americans use way way more energy than Chinese. That's the point.
Even though America has cleaner energy, they still use more coal per person just because of how much energy they use.
The other said of the coin is that even though Chinese use dirty energy compared to America, they don't use nearly as much of it per person.
One person in America is responsible for more CO2 from electric coal power than one person in China.
Certainly makes it different. And your previous statement nonsense.