So why do you guys keep calling yourselves 'Americans'? Technically you are, but hey.. The United States can't be used as an adjective or an adverb, so you're screwed. Either pick a new name for your part of the American land mass and call it "Microsoft", or just shut up already.;-)
Try scanning and printing a $20 note and a 20 (that's Euro, for the font-impaired) note. Look at the result. It would be much easier to spend the american fake.. for instance in a bar. Who the hell reads microprint??? The colours in the Euro-fake would seem off the mark at first glance, whereas the dollar is mostly just murky dark green. It is extremely difficult to match colour on a desktop scanning/printing setup. Professionals spend $$$ on such systems and it's still not 100% foolproof. I'm Dutch, and we used to have very brightly coloured bills which were nearly impossible to scan and print colour-correct. I had some great fun with glue and fake banknotes stuck to mall floors when I was a kid.. but many people saw they were fake from a distance. Dollars would have been a lot more fun.
I must admit I'm not very familiar with american bills, so I don't know if the higher denominations have them, but the holographic foil-strip that goes onto every single euro-bill is certainly a good idea! RFID-tags are of course a little less attractive;-)
Something is VERY wrong with your setup then. I've seen clunky iMacs transfer video over IEEE1394 with absolutely no trouble whatsoever and those are in no way a match for a properly configured P4.
You prefer not being told about bugs/holes until after it's too late and the OS vendor's markenting dept at long last had to give in and admit a fault?
Hmm.. please.. I'll take Linux/BSD anytime. I'd rather be flooded with oodles info I don't need, than miss out on a single bugfix which saves my systems -before- the l33t kiddo's get to them.
As for a GUI.. KDE kicks some major butt, as does Gnome. I guess Aqua doesn't count, but it -could- be made to run on x86 Linux/BSD.. ahhh.. if only..
Ease of use is only relative to the level of competence of the user at the keys. I very much like the quick command line commands for system management. They allow for much more flexibility than any gui tool and they can be scripted to create new commands to your liking.
The only place you really NEED a GUI is in creative fields where placing graphical objects makes it a necessity (unless you're so nasty as to manually program PostScript..hehe..).
Funny thing about things that "just work" is that they usually don't work. I have a lot of friends who contact me through ICQ from Windows boxes. Most of them send me "Oops, sorry.. gotta reboot, be right back"-messages more than six times a day. My BSD-box boots up in the morning, chugs along effortlessly the whole day, then does an orderly shutdown when I'm done with it. The internal development webserver at my company also runs BSD, gets a lot of traffic and nutty users trying stuff on it through shells.. it's a developer playground.. but it's been up straight for 41 days now and 120 before the power outage that caused it to go down.
I'm convinced that a server running BSD in a surrounding where security patching is not necessary (internal controlled use), will effectively just run forever until the hardware dies. I'd like to see a single GUI-blessed (read Windows) server do that. I have yet to see the first one.. and have used a few myself.
Windows doesnt "just work". Windows assumes a stupid administrator and hides everything from view. I'm sure it all can be configured to a very minute level, but where the hell should I start looking in that swamp MS calls the Registry??? It's a jungle out there!!!
Hmm.. makes me wonder. If I don't see any of the documentation, how am I to know wheter my GPL-ed implementation is 100% compatible? I'd have to read the damn document, right? Since I can't do that there's no way for tell how compatible my program is, and since I wasn't allowed to read the doc in the first place, can MS still sue me and win if my app accidentally turns out to be pretty much compatible?
Have you actually done this? I'll admit I haven't, and have been wary to do so since I keep hearing the same story: AD is not 100% LDAP, and the authentication scheme is not 100% Kerberos. If you actually have tried this, I'd like to know how you managed to pull it off properely where dozens of others failed..
The lights on my switch indicate activity, they don't flicker to the beat of my bits. Even if they did, there'd probably be too much static and other interference on them to reliably deduce data from them.
On hubs it's even worse. You get all traffic flowing through all ports in both directions, try deciphering that!
This story is, as far as I'm concerned, major bull and it's not even April 1st yet!
SO, sure, people in other counrties should be held accountable to our laws....
That's the most chauvinist US-centric remark I've seen on here for a LONG time!
As a citizen of the EU (which isn't actually a nation at all, so I'm a citizen of the Netherlands really), I have every right to buy sell or use DMCA-circumventing devices. I can sell them to US-citizens too. Why should I be held responsible if a tourist from the US buys a DMCA-circumventing device from my computer shop in Amsterdam, gets on a plane, and gets busted when he uses his new device in his NYC home? Do you really think I should be punished for selling a perfectly legal (in Amsterdam) device to a paying customer?? No way. I'm no legal expert, but I don't think anyone's going to bring punishment to my web shop either. I do not have any laws to abide by other than Dutch law since that's where my business is. I don't have to abide by US trade embargos either. I can ship as many ipods to Iraq as damn well pleases me, as long as the Netherlands don't have a similar embargo in place (which I think they have).
What you do with my goods after you leave my shop (be it web or tangible) is your responsibility, not mine. I had a discussion on this subject with an experienced lawyer, and he said I'd almost certainly win in such a case unless the product I'm selling was clearly only usable for illegal purposes or there was great likelihood for the product to be used in illegal ways. So no, I'm not allowed to sell machine guns, but a hunting rifle is okay (when the customer has a proper permit, taking local gun laws into account) even though a hunting rifle may just as well be used to shoot people.
If I were you, dear US-citizens, I'd move! The "Home Of The Free" myth has turned around on you, you've been overtaken by many European countries when it comes to civil liberties.
Adobe's market is HUGE in the apple section, the Wintel market for their products pales in comparison. Practically every publishing shop in the world runs on Apple hardware using Adobe and Quark apps. So yes they're in a hurry. It's their biggest market.
Yeah great, but we still won't be able to recompile the Adobe stuff to run on x86 hardware instead of PowerPC. As an avid Adobe user due to lack of alternatives I'm not going to hold my breath until FreeBSD runs Photoshop natively. I'd rather have a Mac with OSX running most of my current FreeBSD apps AND proprietary Adobe/M$ apps. I could even install Linux onto my future Mac if I wanted to, but frankly I don't see any reason to do so.
As far as I'm concerned, Apple has a major winner on its hands here and I, for one, will certainly move to the Mac platform ASAP when my graphics apps have all been ported properly. My current x86 servers are running FreeBSD+Samba, it won't take much work to put Netatalk on there instead. Now if only I had enough cash to spend...
There's a difference between the consumer and business market when it comes to Compaq x86 PC's. I know from experience that the Deskpro line of PC's is, or at least used to be, a lot more compatible than the Presarios I've seen. Now I haven't seen that many of them, four reasonably recent presarios, two deskpros and a 'Professional Workstation'. The deskpros and the PWS were great with NT whereas the Presario line sucked eggs. My dad's presario is a model 5686 which I fitted with a 3Com 905B NIC and disabled the onboard affair, which strangely helped stability a lot.
Maybe someone with some spare time could start gathering standard spam-complaints in different languages from all around the world. Sort of like choose the language, spam-type, click 'ok', and copy/paste the resulting text into an e-mail. I'm sure lots of people all around the world have complained about spam once in a while, they'd be willing to forward their e-mails to such an anti-spam message repository.
Plus only companies buy branded ix86 from Compaq and HP, etc. to get technical assistence, not a home computer user, this will buy a non-branded PC and will get the most modern CPU and RAM.
I have a lot of friends who aren't very technologically adept. They want their PC to work, with 'easy' being the keyword here. Each and every one of them owns the prepackaged Compaq, Dell or (shudder) Packard Bell machines. It took them A LOT of convincing from my side for them to actually buy a beige-box that would actually be compatible. My poor old father got suckered into buying a Presario two years ago on which he can't run anything other than Win98. It's utterly unstable with anyting NT-based, and don't even try linux/*BSD on it. This SUCKS!! But it's the reality out there. Joe Sixpack doesn't buy beige box-PC's, but goes for the prepackaged OEM deals.
It's called FreeBSD Unleashed by Michael Urban and Brian Tiemann. It may not appeal to some of you penguin-fans, but it sure deals with FreeBSD from a WinNT/2K admin's point of view.
I, for one, got a whole lot *NIX-savvier through this book despite the sloppiness it shows in printing certain things twice, once in a box as a 'tip' and once as plain text. Once you get past that, it's really a great book.
I consider myself quite a heavy user, but I don't think I'll burn more than 2G's of bandwidth a month ever. This includes of course the downloading of various ISO images of linux distros and FreeBSD. If the bandwidth to download the ISO's becomes too expensive for me, I'll just order the CD's from the store.
My parents however, average Joe-user types, grab music in an almost maniacal way. 3500 audio CD's over the past year is maniacal to me;-)
I once tested to see their bandwidth requirements by counting at their NAT gateway, and it appeared they slurped in approx 19GB's during the month I tested! They haven't heard from their ISP yet but I'd say this is excessive. But when I tell them they shouldn't be soaking up bandwidth like that, they just shrug and say 'I paid for it, so I'm gonna use it!'. They just don't see bandwidth as a scarce resource. I think it'll be very hard to convince people like my folks of the fact that bandwidth actually IS scarce. Sadly, there must be millions of people exactly like my parents. Not that I don't like my parents, but they're a far cry from good netizens!
Why would anyone really want to run Linux on a PS2 except to prove to themselves that it's possible? Sony was obviously reluctant to release their distro. They put all manner of hurdles in place to keep you from using YOUR PS2 the way YOU want to. Hell, I wouldn't even buy a PS2 just because of this.
When I buy a computer (be it a pc or console) that single box is mine and I'd like to be able to choose what I do with it as long as I don't cause any sort of damage to others. If I choose to void the warranty on my PS2, so be it.
Can a company like sony really enforce any restrictions/license when all I do is use the box for my own personal use and nothing else?? I'm no legal expert, but I'd be REALLY disappointed in the state of the legal system if this were true.
Umm, yes, it is that clever. When you send someone a letter (one of those cool paper things with ink on 'em), you expect it to arrive on time and in one piece. This is exactly what snailmail does. The postal service picks up your letter, routes it through their distribution channels, and delivers it to the recipient's mailbox.
Now what if your company wishes to send out an enormous box containing for example a new big screen TV to some customer? You probably won't use regular mail, but have a heavier-duty delivery service handle it at a higher price because the postman would break his back lugging your box across the city. But what if there were no alternative? Man, that postman would be SLOW!
Same goes for electronic bandwidth. If you'd send a single small e-mail out as a single entity (packet if you will), the chances of it arriving properly at the recipient's inbox are pretty good. This is because the tiny little email doesn't pull a lot of bandwidth and will relatively easily slip through more or less congested lines.
Sending out the 2-hour video of your wedding as a single packet across a routed network is bound to give problems. Somewhere along the line the network gets congested because your huge video can't go throught he same pipe together with the next guy's MP3 collection. Result: digital roadblock and there is no such thing as UPS on the internet to deliver big packets.
The smart bit on packet switching in analogy to snail mail (considering the fact that we're talking 1962 here) is this: you'd never chop that big screen TV into little pieces so a small army of postmen could swiftly deliver it to your customer and reassemble it on the spot. It must have required a pretty brilliant leap of thought to actually do this for data. Intuitively you'd think the risk of data corruption would be too great with this disassembly- reassembly-step. Luckily we're dealing with computers here, not humans, so packet switching actually did turn out a big success.
PS. I know my analogy here is flawed, but hey, you get the point, right?;-)
Do you mean what will happen to his cable subscription in the light of the ISP's Acceptable Use Policy, or to the box itself?
For the box I'd say the cable gets saturated LONG before the system starts to feel any strain at all.
I can run a stable www-server through NetPresenz under MacOS 8.1 which lives inside my Athlon courtesy of Basilisk II JIT. My @Home connection allows me 16KB/s upstream, which the virtual Mac easily fills.
Running on a real life powermac G3 (an iMac) the stability and performance are much better. Taking into account OS X and we're talking real webservers./.'ing the site in question is purely a matter of bandwidth saturation, has nothing to do with the box itself.
I'm gonna put my DNA under the same license as Windows XP! That ought to make sure nobody copies it! I wonder though.. did my parents call M$ to get their copy of me activated? And what if I decide to rigorously upgrade my hardware at some point during my lifetime?
Hmm.. what if I'm just a 120-eval. copy???
Scary!
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So why do you guys keep calling yourselves 'Americans'? Technically you are, but hey.. The United States can't be used as an adjective or an adverb, so you're screwed. Either pick a new name for your part of the American land mass and call it "Microsoft", or just shut up already. ;-)
Try scanning and printing a $20 note and a 20 (that's Euro, for the font-impaired) note. Look at the result. It would be much easier to spend the american fake.. for instance in a bar. Who the hell reads microprint??? The colours in the Euro-fake would seem off the mark at first glance, whereas the dollar is mostly just murky dark green. It is extremely difficult to match colour on a desktop scanning/printing setup. Professionals spend $$$ on such systems and it's still not 100% foolproof. I'm Dutch, and we used to have very brightly coloured bills which were nearly impossible to scan and print colour-correct. I had some great fun with glue and fake banknotes stuck to mall floors when I was a kid.. but many people saw they were fake from a distance. Dollars would have been a lot more fun. I must admit I'm not very familiar with american bills, so I don't know if the higher denominations have them, but the holographic foil-strip that goes onto every single euro-bill is certainly a good idea! RFID-tags are of course a little less attractive ;-)
Something is VERY wrong with your setup then. I've seen clunky iMacs transfer video over IEEE1394 with absolutely no trouble whatsoever and those are in no way a match for a properly configured P4.
You prefer not being told about bugs/holes until after it's too late and the OS vendor's markenting dept at long last had to give in and admit a fault? Hmm.. please.. I'll take Linux/BSD anytime. I'd rather be flooded with oodles info I don't need, than miss out on a single bugfix which saves my systems -before- the l33t kiddo's get to them. As for a GUI.. KDE kicks some major butt, as does Gnome. I guess Aqua doesn't count, but it -could- be made to run on x86 Linux/BSD.. ahhh.. if only.. Ease of use is only relative to the level of competence of the user at the keys. I very much like the quick command line commands for system management. They allow for much more flexibility than any gui tool and they can be scripted to create new commands to your liking. The only place you really NEED a GUI is in creative fields where placing graphical objects makes it a necessity (unless you're so nasty as to manually program PostScript..hehe..). Funny thing about things that "just work" is that they usually don't work. I have a lot of friends who contact me through ICQ from Windows boxes. Most of them send me "Oops, sorry.. gotta reboot, be right back"-messages more than six times a day. My BSD-box boots up in the morning, chugs along effortlessly the whole day, then does an orderly shutdown when I'm done with it. The internal development webserver at my company also runs BSD, gets a lot of traffic and nutty users trying stuff on it through shells.. it's a developer playground.. but it's been up straight for 41 days now and 120 before the power outage that caused it to go down. I'm convinced that a server running BSD in a surrounding where security patching is not necessary (internal controlled use), will effectively just run forever until the hardware dies. I'd like to see a single GUI-blessed (read Windows) server do that. I have yet to see the first one.. and have used a few myself. Windows doesnt "just work". Windows assumes a stupid administrator and hides everything from view. I'm sure it all can be configured to a very minute level, but where the hell should I start looking in that swamp MS calls the Registry??? It's a jungle out there!!!
Hi.. just to continue this offtopic thread.. I actually LIVED in h00FdD0Rp for 3 months!! I survived.. barely!
Hmm.. makes me wonder. If I don't see any of the documentation, how am I to know wheter my GPL-ed implementation is 100% compatible? I'd have to read the damn document, right? Since I can't do that there's no way for tell how compatible my program is, and since I wasn't allowed to read the doc in the first place, can MS still sue me and win if my app accidentally turns out to be pretty much compatible?
Have you actually done this? I'll admit I haven't, and have been wary to do so since I keep hearing the same story: AD is not 100% LDAP, and the authentication scheme is not 100% Kerberos. If you actually have tried this, I'd like to know how you managed to pull it off properely where dozens of others failed..
..would've been more appropriate for Linux than the monstrosity called Windows 95. Sadly M$ beat us to it! ;-)
The lights on my switch indicate activity, they don't flicker to the beat of my bits. Even if they did, there'd probably be too much static and other interference on them to reliably deduce data from them. On hubs it's even worse. You get all traffic flowing through all ports in both directions, try deciphering that! This story is, as far as I'm concerned, major bull and it's not even April 1st yet!
SO, sure, people in other counrties should be held accountable to our laws.... That's the most chauvinist US-centric remark I've seen on here for a LONG time! As a citizen of the EU (which isn't actually a nation at all, so I'm a citizen of the Netherlands really), I have every right to buy sell or use DMCA-circumventing devices. I can sell them to US-citizens too. Why should I be held responsible if a tourist from the US buys a DMCA-circumventing device from my computer shop in Amsterdam, gets on a plane, and gets busted when he uses his new device in his NYC home? Do you really think I should be punished for selling a perfectly legal (in Amsterdam) device to a paying customer?? No way. I'm no legal expert, but I don't think anyone's going to bring punishment to my web shop either. I do not have any laws to abide by other than Dutch law since that's where my business is. I don't have to abide by US trade embargos either. I can ship as many ipods to Iraq as damn well pleases me, as long as the Netherlands don't have a similar embargo in place (which I think they have). What you do with my goods after you leave my shop (be it web or tangible) is your responsibility, not mine. I had a discussion on this subject with an experienced lawyer, and he said I'd almost certainly win in such a case unless the product I'm selling was clearly only usable for illegal purposes or there was great likelihood for the product to be used in illegal ways. So no, I'm not allowed to sell machine guns, but a hunting rifle is okay (when the customer has a proper permit, taking local gun laws into account) even though a hunting rifle may just as well be used to shoot people. If I were you, dear US-citizens, I'd move! The "Home Of The Free" myth has turned around on you, you've been overtaken by many European countries when it comes to civil liberties.
Netatalk.. as in current x86-based servers. Or do you know of an OS X port for the x86 platform that none of us are aware of? ;-)
Adobe's market is HUGE in the apple section, the Wintel market for their products pales in comparison. Practically every publishing shop in the world runs on Apple hardware using Adobe and Quark apps. So yes they're in a hurry. It's their biggest market.
Yeah great, but we still won't be able to recompile the Adobe stuff to run on x86 hardware instead of PowerPC. As an avid Adobe user due to lack of alternatives I'm not going to hold my breath until FreeBSD runs Photoshop natively. I'd rather have a Mac with OSX running most of my current FreeBSD apps AND proprietary Adobe/M$ apps. I could even install Linux onto my future Mac if I wanted to, but frankly I don't see any reason to do so.
As far as I'm concerned, Apple has a major winner on its hands here and I, for one, will certainly move to the Mac platform ASAP when my graphics apps have all been ported properly. My current x86 servers are running FreeBSD+Samba, it won't take much work to put Netatalk on there instead. Now if only I had enough cash to spend...
There's a difference between the consumer and business market when it comes to Compaq x86 PC's. I know from experience that the Deskpro line of PC's is, or at least used to be, a lot more compatible than the Presarios I've seen. Now I haven't seen that many of them, four reasonably recent presarios, two deskpros and a 'Professional Workstation'. The deskpros and the PWS were great with NT whereas the Presario line sucked eggs. My dad's presario is a model 5686 which I fitted with a 3Com 905B NIC and disabled the onboard affair, which strangely helped stability a lot.
Maybe someone with some spare time could start gathering standard spam-complaints in different languages from all around the world. Sort of like choose the language, spam-type, click 'ok', and copy/paste the resulting text into an e-mail. I'm sure lots of people all around the world have complained about spam once in a while, they'd be willing to forward their e-mails to such an anti-spam message repository.
Plus only companies buy branded ix86 from Compaq and HP, etc. to get technical assistence, not a home computer user, this will buy a non-branded PC and will get the most modern CPU and RAM.
I have a lot of friends who aren't very technologically adept. They want their PC to work, with 'easy' being the keyword here. Each and every one of them owns the prepackaged Compaq, Dell or (shudder) Packard Bell machines. It took them A LOT of convincing from my side for them to actually buy a beige-box that would actually be compatible. My poor old father got suckered into buying a Presario two years ago on which he can't run anything other than Win98. It's utterly unstable with anyting NT-based, and don't even try linux/*BSD on it. This SUCKS!! But it's the reality out there. Joe Sixpack doesn't buy beige box-PC's, but goes for the prepackaged OEM deals.
How about *BSD?? This certainly has a longer heritage than anything MS ever released.
It's called FreeBSD Unleashed by Michael Urban and Brian Tiemann. It may not appeal to some of you penguin-fans, but it sure deals with FreeBSD from a WinNT/2K admin's point of view.
I, for one, got a whole lot *NIX-savvier through this book despite the sloppiness it shows in printing certain things twice, once in a box as a 'tip' and once as plain text. Once you get past that, it's really a great book.
Can I use it to make toast on my lunch break? Where do they put the heat from that 800MHz. ???
It's Britney, not Brittany.. doesn't matter much for the bouncing but I think we should give credit where credit is due! ;-)
I consider myself quite a heavy user, but I don't think I'll burn more than 2G's of bandwidth a month ever. This includes of course the downloading of various ISO images of linux distros and FreeBSD. If the bandwidth to download the ISO's becomes too expensive for me, I'll just order the CD's from the store. My parents however, average Joe-user types, grab music in an almost maniacal way. 3500 audio CD's over the past year is maniacal to me ;-)
I once tested to see their bandwidth requirements by counting at their NAT gateway, and it appeared they slurped in approx 19GB's during the month I tested! They haven't heard from their ISP yet but I'd say this is excessive. But when I tell them they shouldn't be soaking up bandwidth like that, they just shrug and say 'I paid for it, so I'm gonna use it!'. They just don't see bandwidth as a scarce resource. I think it'll be very hard to convince people like my folks of the fact that bandwidth actually IS scarce. Sadly, there must be millions of people exactly like my parents. Not that I don't like my parents, but they're a far cry from good netizens!
Why would anyone really want to run Linux on a PS2 except to prove to themselves that it's possible? Sony was obviously reluctant to release their distro. They put all manner of hurdles in place to keep you from using YOUR PS2 the way YOU want to. Hell, I wouldn't even buy a PS2 just because of this. When I buy a computer (be it a pc or console) that single box is mine and I'd like to be able to choose what I do with it as long as I don't cause any sort of damage to others. If I choose to void the warranty on my PS2, so be it. Can a company like sony really enforce any restrictions/license when all I do is use the box for my own personal use and nothing else?? I'm no legal expert, but I'd be REALLY disappointed in the state of the legal system if this were true.
Umm, yes, it is that clever. When you send someone a letter (one of those cool paper things with ink on 'em), you expect it to arrive on time and in one piece. This is exactly what snailmail does. The postal service picks up your letter, routes it through their distribution channels, and delivers it to the recipient's mailbox. Now what if your company wishes to send out an enormous box containing for example a new big screen TV to some customer? You probably won't use regular mail, but have a heavier-duty delivery service handle it at a higher price because the postman would break his back lugging your box across the city. But what if there were no alternative? Man, that postman would be SLOW! Same goes for electronic bandwidth. If you'd send a single small e-mail out as a single entity (packet if you will), the chances of it arriving properly at the recipient's inbox are pretty good. This is because the tiny little email doesn't pull a lot of bandwidth and will relatively easily slip through more or less congested lines. Sending out the 2-hour video of your wedding as a single packet across a routed network is bound to give problems. Somewhere along the line the network gets congested because your huge video can't go throught he same pipe together with the next guy's MP3 collection. Result: digital roadblock and there is no such thing as UPS on the internet to deliver big packets. The smart bit on packet switching in analogy to snail mail (considering the fact that we're talking 1962 here) is this: you'd never chop that big screen TV into little pieces so a small army of postmen could swiftly deliver it to your customer and reassemble it on the spot. It must have required a pretty brilliant leap of thought to actually do this for data. Intuitively you'd think the risk of data corruption would be too great with this disassembly- reassembly-step. Luckily we're dealing with computers here, not humans, so packet switching actually did turn out a big success. PS. I know my analogy here is flawed, but hey, you get the point, right? ;-)
Do you mean what will happen to his cable subscription in the light of the ISP's Acceptable Use Policy, or to the box itself? For the box I'd say the cable gets saturated LONG before the system starts to feel any strain at all. I can run a stable www-server through NetPresenz under MacOS 8.1 which lives inside my Athlon courtesy of Basilisk II JIT. My @Home connection allows me 16KB/s upstream, which the virtual Mac easily fills. Running on a real life powermac G3 (an iMac) the stability and performance are much better. Taking into account OS X and we're talking real webservers. /.'ing the site in question is purely a matter of bandwidth saturation, has nothing to do with the box itself.
I'm gonna put my DNA under the same license as Windows XP! That ought to make sure nobody copies it! I wonder though.. did my parents call M$ to get their copy of me activated? And what if I decide to rigorously upgrade my hardware at some point during my lifetime? Hmm.. what if I'm just a 120-eval. copy??? Scary!