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TiVo Watches the Super Bowl
Boone^ writes: "While millions of people were seeing a tremendous football game, TiVo was busy collecting statistics about the Super Bowl viewing habits of its subscribers. Based on a random sampling of 10,000 of the 280,000 subscribers, they found out that Pepsi/Britney was the subject of the most replayed Ad(s), and not surprisingly the play that got the most attention was Vinatieri's game-winning FG."
The only thing I replayed the whole game was the battlebots Bud commercial.
Oh! Do it again in slo-mo!
I don't want them knowing that kind of info about me. Guess no Tivo or any of that other crap for me. :(
Best. Comment. Ever. Enjoy!
In the article I read on this in the morning paper, it said the ads were replayed more than plays from the game.
Now there's a commentary on why people watch the Super Bowl...
---Any philosophy that can be put "in a nutshell" belongs there.---
And we're shocked that the same male geeks who would actually fork over the money for TiVo enjoyed looking at Britney the most, too!
We just replayed to see her tits bounce.
Clearly the whole point of the survey was for them to say "Hey advertisers! Look! This technology is a GOOD thing for you, not a BAD thing."
Of course, one of the reasons people watch the Superbowl is FOR the ads. I don't think I've ever watched a single ad when fast-forwarding through Battle-Bots.
-S
--- What parts of "shall make no law", "shall not be infringed", and "shall not be violated" don't you understand?
thanks to the lovely stats, now we all are going to see more CRAP advertisements.
So everyone is cool with this then? I haven't seen a major /. story of Tivo aka Big Brother. Shouldn't this be under YRO?
Wooden armaments to battle your imaginary foes!
It kind of disturbs me that they can tell exactly which time slice I might be pausing/replaying. Stats by show I can understand, but I find this a bit Orwellian.
TiVo Watches the Super Bowl... ...and horny geeks watch Britney. :)
I'd rather like to know how many people fast-forwarded to skip through commercials. I would have!
Moderation: Put your hand inside the puppet head!
Is there a way to "opt out" of TiVo's data collection nonsense or do the units automatically report to the mothership? I'm not really interested in buying a box that spends significant time spying on me. At least with this system, I have a firewall to warn me when software tries to communicate information to home-base.
I kinda find it amuzing tho, commercials replayed more then the game.. =)
This is probably the biggest reason why people resist subscription or service models with regards to technology -- we want our privacy. Tivo is not available here in Canada, but I assumed that it was a set top box that worked similar to a VCR, NOT as an addressable, readable device like a descrambler. This is an innocent use of the product, but who knows what insidious marketing schemes will be hatched in future based on this? I don't want Microsoft watching what I do on my TV; I don't want my telephone company listening to my telephone calls; and I don't want my cable provider knowing what I watch, when I watch it.
John Maynard Keynes: "When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do?"
Tivo owners watch the Super Bowl? But...but...sunlight, outdoors...sports...
I don't know, it doesn't seem right. Shouldn't they be downloading Linux or trying to destroy the WTO or something?
What's this world coming to...
...but it's being eaten...by some...Linux or something...
Because now they know how many people flip when ads come one, and how many people don't flip, but how accurate are those stats? Maybe the people that don't flip are getting a beer from the fridge, or going to the bathroom, or the remove is out of reach...
There are countless reasons that I might leave an ad playing or change channels during the ads, other than just "like to watch that ad/don't like to watch that ad".
I *want* tv companies to know what I like to watch, and advertisers to know that I almost always skip their adverts because they are dull and pointless.
I don't want them to know that the data comes from *me*, but I certainly have no objection to them knowing what is watched so maybe they'll make more programs I like.
This is a *good* thing.
Sig is taking a break!
...There was a football game this weekend?
I guess this is the last one? Does this mean they will stop wasting time by showing football on TV now?
I have a Bell Expressvu PVR. It's not connected to the phone line. I can pause/replay/salivate all I want without them knowing a thing.
Since there's quite a few people outside the USA who didn't get to see the offical superbowl adverts, could someone list (or link to) this year's highlights?
All I've heard about so far is some undefined beer advert, but apparently that wasn't the only popular one.
Tarsnap: Online backups for the truly paranoid
Does anyone remember the premise of the show? TV Reporters only get to be on-air for as long as people are watching. The networks have big control rooms with real-time statistics of watchers. If the bar graph goes too low, you get pulled. With enough TiVo units, the networks could get the instant feedback they really want. Imagine TV lineups changing weekly, daily, hourly in direct response to viewers desires based on their TiVos. Scary, isn't it?
I think...I think it's in my basement. Let me go upstairs and check. -M.C. Escher (1898-1972)
http://www.ifilm.com/superbowl
Although alot of the various companies also have their ads up on their corporate sites
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
Am I the only one here to realize the bias that would be present amongst the digital video recorder crowd?
/.ers being a good example. (Digital PVR / satillite decoders combo units aside, I'd bet 90%+ of the TiVos are in the hands of a geek.) And I'm not at all surprised this sliver of a sub-sub-demographic category would genrerally prefer the ads to the game.
VCRs are still the most common way people record TV shows... the digital crowd would be the early tech adoption geeks,
This is no less "surprising" that the ad of replay choice.
Do you like Japanese imports?
If you're going to the fridge or the bathroom you hit the 'pause' button... The fast forward on TiVo is so fast that you can do this then fast forward through the crap in no time at all when you return.
I've gotten to where I pause even on commercials when I leave the room so I don't have to back up if I'm gone too long.
You know if your *really* worried about this then
you should cancel all of your credit cards and move
to the deep woods now. Many companies can already
find out detailed and personal information about you
just by looking at the data they already have in
their databases.
Ever shop at Walmart? Someone I know made a sales
call to a top IT manager at Walmart a *few* years
ago. It was his second trip there. During the
intial banter the IT manager asked the guy if he
rembered his toothbrush this time. Apparently
the guy did a query on all of his recent purchases
and noticed that among his purchases on his last visit was a toothbrush. It totaly blew my freinds
mind.
Many businesses have just this kind of detailed
info on you already. They're only going to collect more and more, and there's not much you
can do about it unless you become a hermit.
This was incredibly disturbing.
I recently found online a set of backdoors that can be enabled on the TiVo through the 'Select A Program To Record' mode. Check out tivocommunity.com and search for backdoors.
By enabling backdoors, one of the options allows you to display TiVo's logs on the TV screen. While this is pretty benign information, including things like the status of the scheduler and the daily PPP outcall status, one of the log files appears to be every remote control action you perform with the TiVo controller. I shit you not. From what I remember, the first field is the timestamp, and other field indicate TiVo mode, channel, and various sundry associated with the IR event. Even more scary is that things like volume up and volume down are logged, along with a very precise timestamp. Correlate that to a music show on MTV, and bam--TiVo instantly knows you like the new *NSync or Britney song.
If this were solely used for diagnostic purposes, it would not be so bad, except that TiVo acknowledges that they zip the log files and upload to TiVo as part of the daily call it makes to update its program information.
I urge everyone with a TiVo to contact Philips about this matter and tell them that you don't agree to this or abide by the sending of these longs. Furthermore, if you can hack your TiVo to get the Bash prompt (again, see the link above), I'd set something up to wipe that log before the daily call. This is an absolutely scary invasion of my privacy, and though I love my TiVo, I love my privacy much, much more.
Karma: Excellent Birds (mostly as a result of listening to Laurie Anderson)
It is this ability to collect data (along with the monthly fee) that has kept me from the digital VCRs. What I don't understand is why someone has not marketed a digital video recording system that does not require a phone line hook up? Why can't we have digital video recording in a stand-alone box like the analog recorders? Why not be able to record the digital signal to tape (or CD or DVD) and be able to trade with friends? Oh yeah, we might deprive the broadcasters, advertisers, etc. from all that money they can make by charging us monthly fees.
I don't want to hear it if you a) don't have a Tivo and b) haven't looked into what exact data they collect.
Privacy people tend to get all spazzy on here, and work everyone else up into a tizzy, and in the case of Tivo, its not even remotely warranted.
This sort of thing is what keeps Tivo going. This is a new market and it takes a long time to start breaking even. I have zero problem with Tivo doing this, if it allows me to continue using their service which, frankly, I can't imagine having to do without.
Tivo has been a company that from day one has been extremely concerned about privacy rights, and open communication with their users. If you spend any time browsing the Tivo forums at http://www.tivocommunity.com you'll see that not only do they have a powerful support presense, they are very open about what they collect, how its analyzed, and how its sold. People in the underground community independantly verified what they were saying.
So, basically, everyone relax. Step away from the keyboard, and go unpause Jerry Springer on the Tivo. That's where the real excitement is, not here.
Who complains about XP invading their privacy :D
Somehow I hit enter without being in
the textbox and the default action is
Submit.
Stop the FUD - you know you can. Anonymous, opt-out, what's the problem?
Jeff
This is taken directly from TiVo's privacy policy.
"TiVo does collect Anonymous Viewing Information; that is, information about viewing choices made while using your DVR, but that does not identify you as an individual or household. In other words, there is no personally identifiable information associated with the viewing information that could identify the viewing information as coming from you or your household. TiVo also collects Diagnostic Information from a small number of randomly sampled DVRs for quality control purposes. If you don't want even your Anonymous Viewing Information or Diagnostic Information used in any way, simply tell us by calling our toll free number (1-877-367-8486). "
So it appears that all you have to do is call 1-877-367-8486 to opt-out.
Those backdoors aren't anything new, nor is the knowledge that they log data about viewers viewing habits. Keystroke logging is how they do it. (Its far more accurate -- but keep in mind that Tivo doesn't know, even remotely, what commercials you may or may not be fast forwarding through, so they don't have any useful info about you at all!) Tivo has NEVER hidden the fact. They have been extremely upfront with it in their terms of service and on their website.
Its your own damn fault if you didn't read up on it. But keep in mind before you start calling for some silly protest, that Tivo doesn't correlate information they gleem with who it came from -- only from where they are from, and the provide that data in aggregate to networks who actually *know* what commercials and such were being shown. So if the networks know that 20% of people in 02139 actually stopped to watch the new Volkswagon commercial during a rerun episode of Will and Grace, how does that impact your privacy in the slightest? Volkswagon doesn't know who you are. NBC doesn't know who you are. Tivo doesn't know you were watching a Volkswagon commercial. So where's the problem?
The only way (IMHO) networks could aviod people flipping when ads come on would be to synchronise them. If all the stations play ads at exactly the same time, flipping would do no good. Of course, this would mean the networks would have to work together.
I am a Karma Library.
...who don't get to watch the Superbowl commercials, be sure to check out ifilm.com's Superbowl Page where you can check them out.
I first found out about the since deceased AdCritic by looking for a place to check out the SB commercials, and it looks like these guys have filled that void for me.
For those of you who aren't aware, Canadian cable companies cut out the American commercials and insert our own, unique brand of crap in their place.
At least this year, there was a game worth watching!
$0.02 (CDN)
I never miss any of my favorite shows anymore, and there is always something good on TV, no matter what the time and day. Maybe if enough Tivo users watch a particular show then it won't be cancelled. It seems that they always cancel my favorite shows before it even lasts a single season. SPOOOOOON! That's why I participate in the stats gathering.
:)
I am working for a start up and have long hours, but I still get to see every one of my favorite shows.
It can only record one channel at a time, but worse case I could always get my VCR to record a second show if I wanted to. There are rarely 2 shows on at the same time that I want to watch. I am lucky if there is one show on that I want to watch, so Tivo has really made tv watching fun again.
One of the cool things that it can do that a VCR can't is that you can watch a recording, while Tivo is recording another show.
It can only record about 15 hours of video at medium quality. I am going to put in the extra 80GB hard drive so that I can record another 60 hours of medium quality video. I want to record and store entire seasons of my favorite shows and then store them as DiVX on DVD-R. I should be able to fit about 9 hours of VHS quality video on every DVD-R
One of the cool things that Tivo could allow is that they could put on less popular shows on at 4am in the morning, and anyone that really wants to watch the show can have Tivo pick it up. It would also be cool to put on education classes on at night, or on a particular channel.
-- Never make a general statement.
Why I went with a REPLAY-TV, because why should I have to pay for them to send me the channel listings when they are making money hand-over-fist off of their marketing info. Think about it - they get money from the subscribers and those who want to know what the subscribers are doing. Phleaze..
If you let them show what YOU like to watch, then more porgrams of what YOU like to watch will become more common, and the programs that YOU HATE will start to disappear. How is that bad? Duh?
The actual level of data collected is way more than just what channel you are watching, the data is so specific it can tell how many times and what time you pressed any button on the remote at any time, be it volume control ,pause buttons anything!
This data to advertisers is known as "gold dust"
advertisers could find out things like:
did you watch their advert if so how many times
did you forward or rewind it if so how far
did you cut the volume if so for how long
did you flip channel if so did you flip it back
when you flipped what advert did you see on the other channel
and just about any viewing habit data they choose , and guess what , your paying a subscription for this service so for Tivo this is a win win win situation and must be laughing in their condos on malibu beach.
now this report is rather biased towards privacy and some say the report is flawed blah blah but the actual captured data logs are not.
Now whereas the data is "anonomous" it is linked to subscribers via postcode/zipcode and certainly here in the UK if i give my postcode to some companies they can tell exactly which house iam living in , not totally anonomous, and after all, they only need to know what the "house" is watching as everyone sits down and watches the same program together so individual advert profiling would be irrelavent.
devices like Tivo could work without selling this data to advertisers but the might hand of marketing is pretty good at persuasding poor companies that the financial recompence is worthwhile.
IMHO the whole point of a Tivo is data collection hence right from the start the units have been designed as profiling devices capturing all available statistical data, i mean what use is recording when i press volume buttons in determining that the simpsons is on and if i would like to watch it ?
the sooner people complain and see these companies for what they really are the better
It doesn't make sense to hide what you watch at all. Tivo can report back stuff to companies of what exactly are on peoples subscription lists and TV shows can stay on the air longer, and the sucky shows can just go die. They can also tell advertisers what commercials you really hate. Girls with bouncy breats is OBVIOUSLY going to be more popular than any other ad, but still...
Replaying advertisments? What process is going on in the heads of these people?
It's thought Jim, but not as we know it.
Tivo is not available here in Canada
I don't know if this is Tivo per se, but Bell will sell you a device that offers the same sort of functionality. Details here
I assume it probably phones home in the same way.
*** Where are we going? And what's with this handbasket?
Of course we believe what Tivo tells us. It's whats in the TOS that we agree'd to. Anything above and beyond that with our info and they can get into hot water and destroy their own company. Quit being such a conspiracy theorist. Sheesh.
..wonder what the replies would be like if the product was called MS Tivo.
I don't know, it doesn't seem right. Shouldn't they be downloading Linux or trying to destroy the WTO or something?
/. contingent would have been watching anime or pr0n...
I would have thought that the
Or both - anime pr0n...
*** Where are we going? And what's with this handbasket?
The idea of Tivo sending user's logs back to their home base, just makes me wonder - Is anyone generating mass amounts of random (authetntic looking) logs and sending them to Tivo as well?
Well, it's a thought.
Whats wrong with this info being sent? They can see what buttons are used, which arent.. What commercials you FF, and what ones you mute. What shows you turn the volume up on, and what ones you turn them down on. All this data can be VERY informative for shows and movies to send a message across what *YOU* do or dont like. If you're all for crappy programming to continue, then go on with your bantering, but if you like to send a message that the You're getting a Dell, dude! is driving you insane, then back off. Cripes. Is this hard t understand? You agree'd to this when you bought one, and we all knew about it. Except you, apparently.
...is that I pay them for shitty program information that's a tenth of the quality of that which I already get with my digital cable box. TiVo has been slow in acknowledging the lineup changes in our digital service and has a few triply-multiplexed channels in the lineup where there ought not to be. So $10/month gets me this service, but at the same time they're making money on this goldmine that they're collecting and publishing reports about. Think about it--they are one step from offering up customized information to the networks for a fortune. And I'm supposed to pay for crap lineup information AND have all my personal viewing habit data sent to them so they can sell it to advertisers and networks? No thanks.
Karma: Excellent Birds (mostly as a result of listening to Laurie Anderson)
I wonder if they gathered the stats for everyone who was expecting Malcom in the Middle to record and ended up GETTING the Superbowl instead? Ah HEM... I got the first 2 minutes of the show though!
TiVo works fine in exactly the mode you're talking about. Just don't subscribe to their service, and leave the phone line unplugged. You'll be "burdened" with having to manually program the thing, which isn't at all hard to do. Just not as slovenly as using their service.
You can also still use the "output to VCR" feature, which pipes the recording to the output jacks on the back of the box. Hook up your old-fashioned VCR, and you're all set.
AFAIK, all PVRs on the market will still work without the service...
I admit I haven't been following the tivo thing too closely, and I knew you had to dial in with the thing to get the service, but this is the first time I've heard that they monitor your every move.
It will be a cold day in hell before one of those things ever enters my house.
I watched the super-bowl with friends on a TiVo. We paused the half-time show in order to serve chili (umm, good!) Miss the half-time show? Commercials? No way! We fast-forwarded through the boring parts--the game!
Hey democracy lovers, add Quorum as a c
I'd rather TiVo link the information back to my user ID and use that information to further customize what I see, especially commercials.
What's so bad about having 2 minutes of ad's that are targeted directly to your interests? I don't give a damn about low fat yogurt or female hygine products, but I might stop and watch a commercial about a new action flick or computer game.
I really enjoy the TiVo suggestions; often, I find shows I wouldn't have seen otherwise there. Why not do the same for the advertisements I fast forward through anyway?
Just don't take that ability away from me.
sononomo@hotmail.com - Has seen the Factory Ass at Comdex
My specialty is computer graphics. Some super bowl commercials defeine the state-of-the-art in CGI and F/X.
I don't even have to go to my Tivo to do that. You're posting like you assume I haven't done that before. Backdoors were cool when they first were found two years ago, but they pretty much bring yawns now.
So you want me to go see whats in my log files. Since I'm at work, I can't play with the silly backdoors, but since I know a pretty fair amount about how the Tivo works, I have two options available to me. One, I can log into my Tivo over the web and look at the reports there. Or I can look through the entire MFS database on the Tivo for anything I find suspect. But I've done that before and it got old too. Have you? I'm guessing not, since you seemed so excited about the backdoors.
So that aside, my other option is to just ssh into my Tivo. Easy enough, and I can go and just ftp off the syslog. But you know what? I was doing that a year and a half ago too, and it just isn't that interesting either. I know perfectly well what data gets sent up to Tivo. I know perfectly well that the serial number is used via HTTP basic authentication before data is uploaded or downloaded from Tivo. I also know perfectly well that they have said they do not correlate data with users, and I believe them because in two years I've never had a reason not to, and I've dealt pretty directly with Tivo. I also know that Tivo doesn't have the right information to really find out anything useful about me anyway, since they don't know what was on a channel at a given time anyway!. Want to know what else I know? Having worked with a number of companies in the past that write software for data mining demographic data sources, I can tell you for absolutely certain that the Tivo information isn't within two or three orders of magnitude as damaging to your privacy as the data collected when you go shopping and pay for anything with any tender other than cash. And walk there because you don't have a drivers license or car. And don't own or rent property.
Get real. I can't say you're being paranoid, but you're looking at the world with blinders... things are a whole lot worse than you think, and a whole lot more out of your ability to control than you think. Going after Tivo for what they are doing is just plain silly.
...tell it to the people who read the eToys privacy statement, which said "We do not sell, rent, loan or transfer any personal information regarding our customers or their kids to any unrelated third parties. Any information you give us about yourself or your kids is held with the utmost care and security and will not be used in ways to which you have not consented." That site even had the eTrust seal on it.
Everyone who thinks that this is a bad thing had better stop using Google now.
This is the best reason to apply the hack for no data sent.
I look forward to these statistical results. It increases knowledge of ourselves.
I have two reservations:
(1) No individual data are made available.
(2) All results are made available to everyone.
I think the Brits, a couple whom authored "1984" and "Brave New World" are showing the proper direction. They put surveillence cams up everywhere. However they make much of the feed publically available. There is less opposition to more information when *everyone* has *full* access to it.
At first I was amazed by how much people loved the idea of TiVo allowing them to, get this, *tape one show while watching another*!!! The only two real advantages over a VCR seemed to be that you could watch something you taped while taping something else (w/out buying another unit) and fact that the media was digital -- if you really need digital (hey, I love watching Buffy as much as the next guy, but analog does just fine by me).
Now I know the VCR comes out on top. Even if my VCR mfgr included some supra-secret monitoring routines, it'd have a hard time putting together what I was watching in "12:00am, 1/1/1970". *flash flash flash*
It's all 0s and 1s. Or it's not.
I mean, seriously, the people filling out those forms are not going to put down that they watched the Playboy Channel for 8 straight hours; they're going to put down "Friends," "ER," and "60 Minutes" because it's what's expected of them.
Tracking viewing habits with DVR/PVRs can only help push the networks out of churning out the same old garbage year after year.
Information gathering of this sort, assuming they stick to their posted privacy policy, isn't really such a bad thing. Advertisers work in odd and mysterious ways, and basing a campaign or new product on what works in "testing" seems far less correct than judging it on actual viewing habits.
Testing works by essentially shoving groups of 12 people or so in remote cities in Wisconsin (or wherever represents a demographic mix) into a room and interviewing them, very very precisely. These people get a snack lunch and some money. Advertisers feel they get an accurate view of how the public will view a spot. I've seen plenty of commercials killed in testing (after all they money has been spent to make them) and it really pisses of the company and the ad agency.
They don't get mad at themselves, the usually get mad at the public. After all, all their previous research said this new potato chip would be huge...so it can't be their fault.
Tivo's ability to gather data on a individual and group level (like the whole zip code of that town in Wisconsin) is far faster than Nielsen ratings, more specific to an individual TV event like commercials or programming, and most likely useful to advertisers and programmers in general.
-Barkeep, a draft of your most hazardous brew, for the world is slowly stepping into focus, and I don't like what I see.
If you sgtart the game with a delay, you can indeed fast-forward through commercials. You'd just start the game 10 or 20 minutes late.
Moderation: Put your hand inside the puppet head!
What is this, a world from "Demolition Man"? I tought it was a joke.. but nooo, "we want to see those nice ads and sing along with their tunes!"
Preserve old classics: copy your collection onto all hard drives.
Did anyone fastforward through the game to watch the commercials?
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Many businesses have just this kind of detailed info on you already. They're only going to collect more and more, and there's not much you can do about it unless you become a hermit.
Totally wrong. If you want to protect your privacy the best solution is to simply pay with cash. It's also good economics since it helps prevent you from getting into debt.
--
Spaz!
She's a skank, plain and simple. The worst rolemodel for a young girl, and unfortunately she's got most of them in her evil clutches.
Besides, regarding her jingle, "...for those who think young," she got practically ever guy thinking young (of her), which is just wrong.
I tried that too, and it didn't work. I even modded foes' posts down -4. They still show up. Can anyone explain?
But we know he has (or rather: had...) kidney problems... Hehe!
Well, it's all nice as long as it's all about "girls with bouncy breasts". But what if your government decides to classify you as a terrorist sympathizer because, unlike the rest of the apathetic population, you watched some alternative news coverage? What if your insurance company decides you are too much of a risk because you like to watch car races, watch porn of some kind or other, or watch too many MacDonald's commercials?
I'm surprised how strongly some people react to others gathering statistics on what they do. Now, granted this is a private activity, watching tv in your own home. But I think that some people need to get over their self-inflated sense of "privacy" and "anonymity". Privacy is being allowed to go about your business without having your rights infringed upon by the state. Anonymity is a different matter. If you choose to use Tivo, and incredibly neat and useful gadget, you contribute to their ability to gather statistics. There's no invasion of privacy going on here, and try as you might, your "rights" are not being deprived (which I think some people forget in our individualistic society).
Eventually, every (smart) company that grows to serve more than a handful of people has to treat those customers as statistics, even though they may claim to be providing incredibly "personal" service.
Some companies are more sophisticated at using the information at their disposal, and employ teams of data miners to sift through for patterns that'll benefit their business. Others aren't so clever and lose out on those chances.
But in either case, why expect both anonymity *and* privacy? There is no constitutional right to either.
but keep in mind that Tivo doesn't know, even remotely, what commercials you may or may not be fast forwarding through, so they don't have any useful info about you at all!
From the article:
" Based on a random sampling of 10,000 of the 280,000 subscribers, they found out that Pepsi/Britney was the subject of the most replayed Ad(s)..."
If they know what ads you're *watching*, then they surely must know what ads you're fast-forwarding through..
echo '[q]sa[ln0=aln80~Psnlbx]16isb572CCB9AE9DB03273snlbxq' |dc
Not if the advertisers now know for a fact that everybody fast-forwards through ads, and suddenly funding for even the best shows start drying up... Isn't this basically what killed banner-ad supported business: it was far too easy to proof that nobody was paying attention to the ads anyways...
I don't see why we need TiVo. If we got standard broadcast and Internet formats for programming information, together with widespread production of these devices by electronics companies, costs would go down and privacy would end up being better.
The problem isn't superbowl ads or Britney Spears videos or even your favorite XXX flick. It's that if this information is collected at all, it can be used against you. Insurance agencies could use viewing habits to put you into new risk categories, and overzealous DA's and policemen could use it to pressure you into making a deal or to make you look bad in front of a jury. What's particularly bad about that is that you, as an individual, don't even know what criteria are being used to determine that you are suspicious or a risk.
This is going to be modded down. Mark my works, but I'm going to say it anyway.
/. readership--if the company is OK, then their practices must be. If it's Microsoft or Adobe or the latest bully-of-the-week, it's not. And it frustrates me. We need to be very careful with our privacy information no matter with whom we entrust it.
/. readership to look carefully at all companies when it comes to privacy and personal information, not only those they want to see taken down a notch, like Microsoft.
I've been rather upset at all the people defending TiVo because they have an 'opt-out' policy and that their e-mails to their customers update them about changes to the privacy statement. Apparently it doesn't matter that there have been several posts indicating that they send a log of all of the IR messages the TiVo receives correlated to the zip code.
I'm getting the impression that the defence of TiVo is based on the fact that yes, it is cool technology, and if this helps its succeed, then it's OK. It is cool technology. I own a TiVo myself and want to see the PVR revolution continue and strengthen viewers' choices in programming.
But wait a second--if Microsoft was doing something similar in their OS, with their software, the same people praising TiVo would be up in arms. There really is a double standard among most of the
I urge the
Karma: Excellent Birds (mostly as a result of listening to Laurie Anderson)
keep in mind that Tivo doesn't know, even remotely, what commercials you may or may not be fast forwarding through
... "
Did you read the article? Guess not. "Based on a random sampling of 10,000 of the 280,000 subscribers, they found out that Pepsi/Britney was the subject of the most replayed Ad(s)
TiVo sure as fuck knows what commercial I'm watching.
Karma: Excellent Birds (mostly as a result of listening to Laurie Anderson)
All these replies talking about catching keystrokes including volume struck me as humorous.
I like to play Final Fantasy X on the PS2 and my wife hates the sound effects for FFX. So what do I do while I'm playing FFX, I play with the mute on or the volume very low.
Since my TIVO is connected to the same TV and I use it's mute to control the volume...some random show is getting a thumbs down because I play FFX with the mute button.
too cute.
:)
"Only one thing, is impossible for god: to find any sense in any copyright law on the planet." Mark Twain
Why? Because we're watching the Super Bowl . You simply do not watch this game on a delay. You watch it live.
Maybe if you've replayed Ty Law's interception enough times you'll be able to skip past a few, but that's about it.
"The cost of freedom is eternal vigilance." -Thomas Jefferson
Surely how do you think my neighbour would react if I told him to buy a TiVo, only, um, it sends a full listing of every show he watched including volume up/down back to TiVo every night. What does "anonymous aggregate" mean to him anyway?
Pushin' 'n dealin', shovin' 'n stealin'
How did you pay for your tivo box? If you paid anything but cash, then you should be more worried about what the evil salesperson at the home electronics store could do with your credit card or checking account infomration than *gasp* what tivo could do with you TV viewing habits.
No, they don't. They keep their logs without identifiying information (though, I expect them to have a neilsen-like service at some point where you will be able to sign up to share personal information for other sorts of demographic research purposes).
Read the privacy policy. Now's a good time, since they just updated it.
Also, you can opt-out of communicating with TiVo at all (very limiting) or just sending them viewing data (no harm to your viewing or service). Now, the thumbs-up/down I'm not sure about. If you *can* limit this, it would restrict the usefulness of the suggestions feature, if not eliminate it. I'm not sure if you can do that, but it's worth the research if you're uncomfortable sharing your likes and dislikes.
People are right to be concerned an watchful here, but let's not go overboard until TiVo proves themselves unreliable on this point.
Tomorrow, if Bill G. announces that Micro$oft (via Windows 9X/Me/NT/2K/CE/XP/YZ) will be collecting "anonymous statistics" about which websites you visit, what you read, etc. and assures you that these statistics will be used only to "improve your online browsing experience", without identifying you personally (other than by your ZIP code), how many of you would agree to that (assuming you use Micro$oft's products) ?
In this case, it probably has more to do with Microsoft's reputation vs. TiVo's. In the eyes of many, Microsoft has participated in lots of shady shenanigans. On the other hand, many people have trust for TiVo because TiVo appears to go to significant effort to keep their customers informed of anything that could be construed as questionable behavior.
Reality is all about perception; don't forget that.
No, they know what commercials EVERYONE is watching, not YOU. Stop trying to act like such a goddamned ignorant savior. RTFM.
If they know that one person in ten thousand was jerking off to a britney commercial, that's all they know. They don't know WHICH person in ten thousand was jerking off.
---------------------------
You talk about this as if it's a bad thing. If I happen to like a particular type of product I would prefer TiVO to give me more commercials about it than commercials for things I don't care about. For instance, lets take your example of the Budweiser commercials. I happen to find most of them well done and humourous. If my viewing habits reflect this and Budweiser decides to take advantage of this and send me more Bud ads then I won't complain. I would much rather watch a funny Bud ad then watch an ad for "sanitary napkins" (which, while a vital product for half the population, I, being a member of the other half, have no need for)
So if my viewing habits allow me to watch more of the stuff I like, I have no problem with collecting the data. Where the real issue lies is if they use the information for non-service related purposes. For example if a prospective employer turns my application down because he saw I liked watching The West Wing. This is the real issue and goes much beyond just collecting viewing habits. It applies to genetic testing, credit card tracking, etc... and I do believe there are laws (albeit, not very good ones) that do cover this arena.
Even that, while I disagree with it, might make a tiny bit of sense.
What I'm complaining about it the fact that the "extra" modding features don't seem to be working. I've admittedly only tried it in this particular case, but it doesn't work, and it pisses me off.
For years, I've been so paranoid that every time a bad show comes on, or a bad commercial, I'd switch to some channel like Univision, just so whomever watching me would know I hated that show (i.e.: virtually any NBC, ABC or CBS sitcom, holiday special, special in general, reality-based show, or any number of other _bad_ shows i hated so much). When a good show came on, I'd leave my TV turned on to the channel. Sure, I knew deep inside no one was watching or cared, but I may now have to get a tivo, just so my efforts don't go unrewarded.
Yet again the moderators put articles about US specific items up.
Didn't 9/11 teach you anything....guess not.
Maybe if there was a link so we could watch the ads you will no doubt rant on about for weeks we would show a slight interest.
But, I'd seriously doubt that WCOM would release the call records due to privacy issues of their own; some of us Tivo owners block CLID; and have you ever tried to get information out of WCOM that wasn't a set product?
There is also the case for those of us who use our broadband connections to perform the daily updates. Hmmm, on second thought, the demographic of which broadband providers Tivonet/Turbonet users subscribe to might be interesting.
I used the Tivo menu to select "SuperBowl" and it cut off at less than a minute to play. If I didn't read the paper I would think the game was a tie, and I didn't get to see who won the Publisher's Clearing House Sweepstakes!
Does their snoopy software track how many people screamed at their machine when they are done watching the Super Bowl the next day?
YES, there is a McDonald's in Hanoi Square.
hey it could happen
"The Most Fun Possible on 4 wheels" is at SunBuggy in Las Vegas
I use DirecTv with TIVO. In my area I can't get the local stations or networks (ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX) via DirecTV so I had to watch the Superbowl on the local cable rather than on my TIVO/DirecTv. So as a result they were unable to gather no information about what or how I watched, especially since the Tivo unit was in the office and the non Tivo unit was in the room we watched the Superbowl from. In fact the majority of DirecTv users can not get local or network stations on the system so the point is mute for us...
http://128.175.106.144/ghost/ghost.html check it out!
Is there any place you can download the Super Bowl commercials at? I'm on a 56k and streaming doesn't work very well. The Ifilm Site only allows streaming. Is there a way to download these?
BTW, I can stream them while I'm in school, using the school's phat pipe, but can't hear them and that ruins them.
I think I'll be opting out.
And the men who hold high places must be the ones who start
To mold a new reality... closer to the heart
I know that Tivo will simply be using it to make money... Gates might be using it to leverage into other markets, like the medical or food industries. (microchips and salsa anyone?!)
One is free market, one is not. one is Orwellian and one is not.
subtle, but ever so important
I'm sick of shows that I like being cancelled. I want the networks to know what shows I do and do not watch. Its always drivin me nuts to hear about the neilson ratings and the so called 'neilson families'. I've never known one; have you? Whoever they are, I'm sick of them deciding for me what is and isn't good television. Maybe, just maybe, the statistics gathered from what I watch will help keep some decent shows from just disappearing.
Theory: More techie/geek people have dvr devices. The logs from these devices will most likely show a favoritism towards techie/geek shows.
In any case, I'm a hell of a lot more worried about the complete log of every film I've ever rented from the local video store than a log of what commercials I rewinded because I thought they were funny.
The obvious fix for this problem is to buy a DirecTivo and install Extreme 2.5 with the subscription fix so your box never phones home. See the forums at DealDatabase for more info - do a search on SubTest.
-sting3r
I convinced everyone to come over to my house to watch the game this year because I had the DirecTV/Tivo combo and could back up cool ads and plays with ease. At 10pm, with 5 minutes of video buffered, the god damned thing stopped recording the game and switched over to record another show. As a result, we missed the Pat's dramatic march downfield and field goal. By the time I realized the error, we switched back to live TV and the confetti was falling.
Everyone was FUCKING PISSED OFF. This sort of thing happens all the time for sporting events. Before Tivo does ANYTHING else, they need some kind of software solution to record the enitrity of sporting events and go over their scheduled time. I should NOT have to explicitly tell it to record for an extra half hour or hour for every game that comes on.
--
With all the people on /. that complain about their privacy going out the window why do you embrace TiVO so lovingly? I remember an article on here about people complaining about 'Super Savings' cards that grocery stores use. You would think the grocery store was coming into their home and watching what they ate while TiVO was quietly watching TV with them. Can somebody explain to me why when a grocery store tries to cater to what their customers buy, when they buy it, and who is actually doing the buy that people here go insane. But when TiVo keeps statistics on exactly what people are watching nobody has a care in the world.....
Because of the Tivo guide data, Tivo can figure out when and where shows I like are and record them without any intervention on my part whatsoever.
Explain to me how your VCR can do that.
With Tivo, I pick the shows I want, by name, and Tivo does the rest. Peice of cake! It can record hundreds of shows before any intervention is needed - no tapes to change, rewind, lable, etc. I mark the shows I don't want deleted before I watch them as "keep until I delete" and the other stuff I like but don't really care if I don't have a chance to watch get recorded, and if I don't get to 'em the old programs get deleted first to make room for the newest.
This means whenever I do sit down to watch TV, chances are there will always be something I am interested in watching. I can't tell you the last time I watched live TV. Well, OK - the last time was the super bowl, but before that it had been several weeks at least.
And you know what? I don't miss live TV one bit. Indeed, when I was on travel recently, watching normal TV was rather frustrating - no pause, fastforward through commercials or the ability to review something if you missed it.
So, stick your nose in the air and keep trying to convince yourself your VCR is good enough... too bad you will never realize what you are missing
you all think i'm kidding. but i'm not. Taco broke his Tivo and he had to chose between the PooperBowl and S&TC. Take a guess what won. and what would win everytime.
and Rob wore the cutest camisole! it was a girls night in!
It's not like it can be tied to you or anything. Get a shell on the Tivo. Then read the scripts that send the data. Then get a clue.
- Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
Any sensible person would try to avoid watching the ads, by switching channels or something.
Why are you people bitching about being owned by big buisiness, when on the other you lick their backs all the way to the bank?
2002-02-05 03:25:19 TiVo analyzes your Super Bowl viewing habits (articles,news) (rejected)
I've seen many other people complain about the same thing... submit a story, watch it get rejected ASAP, see it posted the next day. Happened to me twice now. Guess it really isn't worth submitting a story.
Tivo the company knows what you watch and keeps stats on it??
They also keep track of what you replay?????
Guess I won't be buying one then, that's freakin ridiculous. I don't need Tivo knowing I paused the Britney commercial to get a close up of....umm her costume.
Well at least know I know and won't be wasting my money.
'Cause I didn't watch the fucking thing. Who gives a hairy rat's ass? That's what I'm talkin' 'bout.
It's interesting to note that they changed their privacy policy just in time to allow them to do this.
is competition good, or is duplication of effort bad?
We now interupt this wonderful discussion about tivo and privacy to bring you this public service announcement.
/. people with low id numbers, who still are traumatized by visions of Bucky Dent and Bill Buckner. We now return you to your normal (C/C++) programming.
Freaking Pats win! WoooHOOOOO!!!! I can't believe it! AAhhhhhWOOOOO! And this message is not OT. There was no overtime! Vinatieri made the kick!
This announcement is on behalf of all
Karma is a terrible thing to waste.
Funny, isn't it, that the biggest buyer of ad time during the SB was a beer company. Then along comes the American Legacy Foundation telling us about the evils of tobacco (another drug), and last of all the White House Office of Drug Control Policy telling us to "just say no". Yeah, that works for sex as well.
Of course, it's not a drug if the government's making tax money off it, is it?
I had one, but the wheel fell off.
Is it just me, or does this remind anybody of the camera in the TV of 1984 fame?
However, consider this faq entry that claims that
Slashdot is uncensored. Apparently this ideal does not extend
to preventing de facto censorship by members of the community
who widen pages to make them unreadable at -1.
Or perhaps you just wrote up a shitty description of the story and it was deemed not good enough to post :)
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
TiVo sure as fuck knows what commercial I'm watching.
No, they only know that someone is watching that commercial. If you're bothered by that, just call an opt out. It's been varified by hackers that opting out turns of the return data stream.
I've found that one of the only things I can't watch on Tivo is sports. There is about a one or two second delay between live television and what Tivo displays on the screen. When watching sports, I just have to see it absolutely live. My Tivo was busy getting the Playboy Fear Factor anyhow. :)
I probably wouldn't avoid watching more of Britney. :-)
OTOH, when one of the commercials for Sit & Sleep (a local furniture retailer) comes on the radio, I turn the radio off as fast as possible. I think I've actually knocked the radio off the tabletop before, I was reaching for the power switch so fast. Yes, they're that obnoxious.
super bowl... is that something that has any relevance in my life? Can I eat it? Does it keep me secure? Does it provide me with shelter? or is it a useless waste of time and money that could be better spent on... well anything? mr. football and ms. cheerleader really have no actual contribution to society and it is good for them that so many sheep eagerly contribute such large amounts of money and time (yeah, I know the saying...) to something so shallow and utterly useless in the real scheme of life.
oh wait a second I don't have a Tivo.
It is always good to have something trivial to complain about. Hell that is the fuel that this place runs on.
> until it sends another update
In which case you turn on the backdoors, look at the System Information screen, check the "Opt Status:" line to see either OptedOut, OptedNeutral, or OptedIn.
In the end, it always comes down to trust. Either you trust them, or you don't. They've gone a hell of a long way to gain my trust, with the most comprehesive privacy policy I've ever seen, the underlying code actually sticking to that policy (and taking it to extremes in some bits to do so), and by notifying their users of changes to that policy via Tivo messages, emails, and even snail mail.
More to the point, they have posted specifically WHY they've had to make changes to their policy. The first time, it was so they could share certain types of data with DirecTV in order to make the DirecTivo. That sort of thing. They're very open about it, and frankly, I trust 'em. But you have to make that call on your own.
- Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
The only reason they gave information on 10,000 viewrs is the other 270,000 viewrs were watching something other than the Super Bowl. Also intersting , of the 10,000 they found the commercials more interesting than the game....
>>>please remove "nospam" from email address
I just gotta get this off my chest.
I'm a huge fan of the TiVo. I've been using it for about three months now, and (not to sound like an ad) it's really changed the way I watch TV. I tend to work at home, and very late, and I love always having something good on to watch while I code. I also like being able to watch my favorite shows when I'm ready to, and not miss them because I'm out with my friends or in a meeting.
However, one problem. I recorded the Super Bowl, but not the postgame. (I wanna see the action, not hear about it.) Not quite. According to the networks, the game was scheduled for 4 hours even.
Do you know what was going on at the end of four hours? There were 44 seconds left on the clock, and the score was tied at 13-13... and my TiVo stops recording.
Really, I should have told the TiVo to record longer. If I recorded more games, I may have gotten into that habit. But I don't, and I didn't. Still frustrating.
Don't take my comments as being down on TiVo. I think it's terrific. The fact that this one event was so frustrating may highlight how well it's been previously.
I don't get it. I use the TiVo, and I want people to know what programs I watch.
In fact, I'm now making it impossible for them to invade my privacy, by giving out the contents of my Season Pass manager in public. It's at the end of this post. These are the shows I tape, folks.
I want the networks to know that I like science fiction, kids' shows, etc. I want to see more programs that I like out there. Bring 'em on! Sure, record that people who watch Buffy also like Richard Dean Anderson's shows. Maybe, since FX is getting lots of revenue from Buffy reruns, they'll start airing Macgyver again. Or whatever. And I'd be happy.
The point of marketing research is for them to find out what we want to buy. I want companies to put out products that I want to buy. What's wrong with this?
Personally, I believe TiVo when they say they only keep the information in the aggregate. I certainly would not want them to track everybody's information personally, but in the aggregate, I have no problem.
Anyway, here's my Season Pass list, for all the world to see. There's a lot on here; I like to have some variety in my Now Playing list, and just let stuff age out if I don't feel like watching it at the time. (The TiVo Suggestions also help with that.)
http://www.keegan.org/jeff/homemovies/02_01_2002/D SC00021.JPG
D SC00042.JPG
and
http://www.keegan.org/jeff/homemovies/01_26_2002/
..Jeff Keegan
seven syllables explain TiVo: kee gan dot org slash ti vo
You've obviously not read the descriptions of the stories the DO accept...the bar is not very high. Fuck that, the bar is not present.
Write-up has little to do with it, considering how totally lacking in any redeeming value some are.
In the current example (thank you for making it even more blatant!
Yeah, well, the problem seems to be the other way around, here: They're *saying* they treat their customers as statistics, but there is a potential for the "service" they're providing to become a little *too* personal for many people's comfort...
If you are, as you seem to be from other posts, convinced they only want to sift through *de-personalised* data for patterns, like they claim (Sorry if I'm mixing you up with some other poster here)... Then can you at least agree that it would be better if they changed their log-upload protocol so it wouldn't include any individual identification at all?
This would remove both potential "threats": Not only that they could change their minds and start selling *individual* consumption-pattern data to advertisers -- but hey, they're saying they'd never do that anyway, so that won't harm them! -- but also the (cumbersome, but apparently technically feasible today) possibility for the RIAA or MPAA or such, to track down someone who "watched that darn SlashDot movie one time too many" through their [uploaded TiVo log - ftp upload log - IP address - ISP's DHCP log].
First, I'm not so sure about that... Doesn't the Bill of Rights say something about "the right to be secure in his person" or something (or am I mixing it up with the U.N. Declaration of Human Rights?), which could be construed to mean privacy or anonymity (or even both)?
Second, why do you Merkins always assume your Constitution is the be-all and end-all of rights and morality? For one thing, as a member of the U.N, your country has (AFAIK) signed a treaty to support the above-mentioned Declaration of Human Rights; that may on some issues give you more rights than Bill and Constitution. For another, they're all just pieces of paper; laws like any other, that *can be changed*. And, if and when they are found lacking -- such as, for instance, not guaranteeing an individual's right to privacy and anonymity -- then AFAICS, they *should* be changed. Isn't that what you have the whole Constitutional Amendment process *for*? If you say, "no", implying that the Constitution should be frozen at some particular instant in time... then as of *when*? Before, or after, it was amended to make slavery illegal? (AFAIK that was legal in the original, non-amended version.) Before, or after, Prohibition was *repealed*...?
Christian R. Conrad
mail me at iki.fi ; same user ID as here