This is the problem: wxWidgets is one of the buggiest pieces of crap that I've ever seen. It's no good telling me that I can fix it myself since it's open source because the code is some serious crap to wade through too. They should seriously work on fixing their bugs.
Interesting, I've had no trouble with wxWidgets since I've been working on it for the past 2 years. It has worked wonderfully on my Linux and Windows with no problems at all.
But, then again, if you're going to force it to work like qtlib, yeah, you'll see lots of problems. The MetaCompiler stuff won't work in a Standard C++ only environment.
(I always get a kick out of people who think everything should work like what they're used to, rather than to learn how it really works)
Also, since you like to throw the 'crap' term around, then I'll say that QT is every bit of 'the buggiest Crap created" itself.
The "use-it-or-not" decision shouldn't be based on the price.
I'd love for you to tell our CEO and Accounting Department that. The resulting brawl would be downright amusing.
Also, in our company, there are other considerations... like having to install QT libraries on whatever platform the Qt app is run (Doesn't matter if it is the Free version or not), whereas we can create apps with wxWidgets libraries statically in our apps, and don't have to require anything for wxWidgets to be installed on multiple platforms (especially on Windows). Not to mention that QT keeps the Mac feel on every platform whereas wxWidgets uses the Native GUI set on whichever platform you use (No, you don't have to have gtk+ on Windows btw for a wxWidgets app) eliminating the native feel problem. And, finally, that an app writer even doing a GPL app has to be careful of the Free QT lib they attempt to distribute with their app...enough of an issue that, in our company, it would require that the machines that would run a QT app would have to download their own version of the Free GPL'd Qtlib before installing our app to run with it (Very similiar to the Cygwin Binary dll where apps are not allowed to distribute that.dll, rather machines running a cygwin.dll have to download it directly from Red Hat Cygnus, the entire Cygwin system that is). We have none of those problems with wxWidgets.
Ok, let the flames begin....There is always some qtlib advocate who doesn't want to to believe that his qtlib has restrictions, thinks the restrictions can just be ignored (call them unimportant), or that they will make the case on the order of "Everybody should pay the cost anyhow, otherwise the free alternatives aren't worth it". I'm here to say it does matter to companies and developers trying to find the lowest cost and easiest for their users way to distribute their software.
Kernel-2.6.12.x wouldn't boot on my machines, locking up after the usb ports were detected.
I've been using the 2.6.13-rcX series from the beginning, today 2.6.13, and have had no problems with any of the 2.6.13 series kernels.
The real question will be how many Linux vendors will be demonized when they pay MS big bucks to get the improvements into their version of Linux.
And just what makes you think that anyone running Linux wants to be interoperable with MS? That's the fallacy in your logic. If Linspire/Lindows has proven anything, it is that most of the Linux community could care less about MS apps, favoring their own OSS applications (most of which operates much better than anything MS designed). Otherwise, the other distributions like RedHat, Mandriva, Gentoo, etc. would have already gone out of business.
And, you also forget that most people want STANDARD Protocols....MS has proven they can't cope with Standards, and that has done a lot to drive a lot of users TO Linux or other distros.
"but actual engineers (as opposed to people who are just tangentially hitched to the IT bandwagon) are all but immune."
Heh...Dream on. I have been an electronics firmware/engineer always working in an R&D Departments, and I've got to tell you, I've seen whole R&D Departments laid off in the past 4 years (especially the engineers) while seeing the sales staff actually increase. In fact, some of my R&D engineer coworkers have been out of a job for the past 4 years. I was lucky though, I only spent 2003 without a job.
So I wonder what companies where you've been where the engineers were 'immune', because, quite frankly, I've never seen 'immune' engineers. In fact, I've seen a lot of new 'contracting' engineers who would love to have been 'immune'.
WxWidgets doesn't have Developers Fees, and uses the Native GUI on Windows, GTK, Mac, and even embedded systems (There's that crossplatform you claim only Qt has)...and All with standard C++ (No stupid Metacompilers needed). WxWidgets used with MinGW or Cygwin make for the ultimate competition, without the Qtlib nonsense. And considering WxWidgets uses STANDARD C++, I'd say it is more portable than Qtlib. Finally, compared to WxWidgets, I'd say that, yes, $5000 per developer is expensive for its type of toolkit.
I don't mind you FUDsters promoting Qtlib or Trolltech, but at least be truthful about it.
"What's worse is the way the mozilla projects rarely seem to manage to put out an actual working source tarball."
Sounds like someone who refuses to read how to build the tarball...which has some differences from the typical build instructions of other programs.
I've been able to build the nightly builds & official release tarballs of both mozilla (now seamonkey) and firefox for months with no problems at all, and they've worked great. All I had to do was follow the Instructions.
* Both Qt (http://www.trolltech.com/) and wxWidgets have many non-GUI-related classes, such as date/time, containers, networking and OpenGL functionality. However, if you are developing commercial applications (non-gpl) in Qt and want to use most of these classes (including the OpenGL widget), you have to pay extra for the "enterprise edition" (http://www.trolltech.com/products/qt/editions.htm l) on top of the normal commercial version of Qt (the "professional edition").
* Qt2 is available under the GPL for open-source applications, and under the QPL for commercial applications. Qt3 for Mac and GNU/Linux is similarly dual-licensed, but there is no free version of Qt3 for Windows. All ports of wxWidgets are distributed under a permissive modified (but explicitly OSI-approved) LGPL.
o Trolltech has announced that Qt4 will be available under the GPL on Windows. See http://www.trolltech.com/newsroom/announcements/00 000192.html.
* Qt doesn't have true native ports such as wxWidgets ([with the exception of Qt/Mac].) Qt draws its own widgets on each platform instead of using the native widgets, whereas wxWidgets offers true native ports for all the supported platforms. Additionally, an approach similar to Qt's is achieved with wxUniversal (of course it should be noted that on some platforms, Qt _is_ the native GUI library.)
* Qt programs are not true C++ programs and require a special pre-compiler, the so-called Meta Object Compiler or moc. wxWidgets programs do not require this kind of preprocessing and are true C++ programs.
* Qt is used by several large projects like KDE and the Opera browser (on the other hand, wxWidgets is used by projects like the AOL Communicator)
* Qt makes extremely liberal use of virtual functions (QTWidget, the base class of all widgets in Qt had 91 at last count), giving it a more OO design than wxWidgets (which uses a more MFC-like approach using macros). What this means is fewer lines of code in general when using Qt, but faster execution speed when using wxWidgets (although the degree to which this occurs depends on whom you ask).
Gee, why I'm not enthralled with Ciphire protocols:
1) Another 'works perfectly program with WinXp, WinXX, etc.' that claims it will also support Linux/xBSD with no catches....where have I heard that one before?
2) Another Certificates laden protocol in the footsteps of SSL. (ie - you can have security if you pay us the megabucks for that 3 month term Certificate, but ignore those Certificates easily faked, etc.) I wish SSL would die instead of being a Certificate money making machine.
3) Another program that promises it will do everything SSH already does without the certificates....just buy a certificate to make Ciphire work.
You aren't kidding. Its amazing that they're the ones doing these surveys showing how low pay is for the IT sector, and they're the ones doing the lowballing. I pity the poor contractor who has to work for them.
I did work for them and just about went bankrupt in a crappy job paying 50% of my normal salary while trying to stay employed. They not only lowballed me, but they took the client company for a higher rate for my services than any other contract house I've ever worked for (easily triple my normal salary).
Be very skeptical of what they pass off as factual statistic.
Yes, I'm getting a tremendous view of the 'ignorant' here in the midwest right now.
I'm from Texas, but after 10 months of unemployment, I had to come to the midwest for the only contract job I could get at the time, just no Engineering jobs to be found there, and as long as Bush is in office, and has no interest in Science or Technology, there won't be any Engineering jobs in Texas. So I have to live among you midwesterns. I was hoping Kerry would get in office so I could get an Engineering job back home in Texas and once again live with my wife and family, but thanks to you 'ignorants in Ohio', I won't be going home anytime soon. And, no, I'm not moving my family up here when their quality of life is much better back in Texas (IE-Doctors here in the midwest don't want to treat anyone for anything in my experience). So thanks a lot ignorant midwesterners.
Since I have to live here, I think I'll just mess up your state.
They put buttons in the 'wrong' order.. Normally it's Ok/Cancel, with Gnome it's Cancel/OK! Aaaarg!
Can't say I have any sympathy for you. If you can't take a moment to actually read what's on the button before clicking it, you get what you deserve. I bet you'd have fun with the unregistered version of Winzip whereas everytime it is started, the license acceptance buttons are switched (ie-Don't Accept/Accept first time, Accept/Don't Accept next time, Don't Accept/Accept the 3rd time, etc.)
"McCarthy was dev/program manager on Visual C++, which is not a poorly-regarded Microsoft product (it's one of the best compiler products on the market)."
Yes, considering at the time it was the only compiler product on the market after Borland kicked out Phillippe Khan and started screwing around with Borland's C++ Compiler (turning it totally into a RAD only tool).
Personally, I find GCC is one of the best compiler products on the market today.
If RedHat and the other RPM distributions were to standardize on their RPM package naming and layout, and provide an easy and reliable upgrade path between releases, that would go a long way towards getting rid of the RPM Dependency Hell problem.
It would really help if the RPM packages tracked with what you get in a regular tarball. I've had too many cases where I installed an RPM, tried to configure it, and still not have it work...only to find that I got a lobotomized RPM package that didn't have everything, and I had to search for a second or third RPM that had the addon to the original RPM to let me do what I wanted. No thanks, I just download and compile the tarball and get everything I want first pass (including on where I want to put files).
Thankfully I have no such problems with Gentoo and their portage system.
"If I go and get more courses, or if I am more skilled at what I do, then yes, I WANT more money."
What is this sentiment that going to courses automatically increase your worth? That is ridiculous. But then again, too many people think like you... which is "I can just take another course and pay my way into a larger salary." Nevermind the person alongside you that didn't have the chance to take the course, but probably has more real world experience than you...enough to probably tell you exactly which information in your course is nonsense.
As it is, I don't want to even attempt to emulate another 'grand MS idea'...especially since there are already superior non-MS systems out there that puts.net to shame. No, I'm not going to cite those systems...do your own research. You'd be surprised.
Offer a 1 year fixed fee subscription and I'll consider subscribing if your fee is reasonable. But if I'm paying for this, I want to see *ZERO* advertisements and any number of slashdot pages I want. It is my money, and if you don't want to give me my money's worth, then I'll find other worthwhile subscriptions (like the Free Software Foundation.)
So if someone had broken into my house without permission, then told me about it afterwards, am I supposed to feel better about it?
You'll feel much worse if someone breaks into your house and steals everything, the POLICE tell you that you should have installed a deadbolt and an alarm system, and the neighbor (who probably asked you to get security advice) is mad at you because the keys to his house he let you borrowed are also gone.
But if that is the only way you'll bother to get advice that could help you.....
Slashdot Mirror
But, then again, if you're going to force it to work like qtlib, yeah, you'll see lots of problems. The MetaCompiler stuff won't work in a Standard C++ only environment.
(I always get a kick out of people who think everything should work like what they're used to, rather than to learn how it really works)
Also, since you like to throw the 'crap' term around, then I'll say that QT is every bit of 'the buggiest Crap created" itself.
Also, in our company, there are other considerations ... like having to install QT libraries on whatever platform the Qt app is run (Doesn't matter if it is the Free version or not), whereas we can create apps with wxWidgets libraries statically in our apps, and don't have to require anything for wxWidgets to be installed on multiple platforms (especially on Windows). Not to mention that QT keeps the Mac feel on every platform whereas wxWidgets uses the Native GUI set on whichever platform you use (No, you don't have to have gtk+ on Windows btw for a wxWidgets app) eliminating the native feel problem. And, finally, that an app writer even doing a GPL app has to be careful of the Free QT lib they attempt to distribute with their app...enough of an issue that, in our company, it would require that the machines that would run a QT app would have to download their own version of the Free GPL'd Qtlib before installing our app to run with it (Very similiar to the Cygwin Binary dll where apps are not allowed to distribute that .dll, rather machines running a cygwin .dll have to download it directly from Red Hat Cygnus, the entire Cygwin system that is). We have none of those problems with wxWidgets.
Ok, let the flames begin....There is always some qtlib advocate who doesn't want to to believe that his qtlib has restrictions, thinks the restrictions can just be ignored (call them unimportant), or that they will make the case on the order of "Everybody should pay the cost anyhow, otherwise the free alternatives aren't worth it". I'm here to say it does matter to companies and developers trying to find the lowest cost and easiest for their users way to distribute their software.
Kernel-2.6.12.x wouldn't boot on my machines, locking up after the usb ports were detected. I've been using the 2.6.13-rcX series from the beginning, today 2.6.13, and have had no problems with any of the 2.6.13 series kernels.
And just what makes you think that anyone running Linux wants to be interoperable with MS? That's the fallacy in your logic. If Linspire/Lindows has proven anything, it is that most of the Linux community could care less about MS apps, favoring their own OSS applications (most of which operates much better than anything MS designed). Otherwise, the other distributions like RedHat, Mandriva, Gentoo, etc. would have already gone out of business.
And, you also forget that most people want STANDARD Protocols....MS has proven they can't cope with Standards, and that has done a lot to drive a lot of users TO Linux or other distros.
So I wonder what companies where you've been where the engineers were 'immune', because, quite frankly, I've never seen 'immune' engineers. In fact, I've seen a lot of new 'contracting' engineers who would love to have been 'immune'.
WxWidgets doesn't have Developers Fees, and uses the Native GUI on Windows, GTK, Mac, and even embedded systems (There's that crossplatform you claim only Qt has)...and All with standard C++ (No stupid Metacompilers needed). WxWidgets used with MinGW or Cygwin make for the ultimate competition, without the Qtlib nonsense. And considering WxWidgets uses STANDARD C++, I'd say it is more portable than Qtlib. Finally, compared to WxWidgets, I'd say that, yes, $5000 per developer is expensive for its type of toolkit.
I don't mind you FUDsters promoting Qtlib or Trolltech, but at least be truthful about it.
And, for your information, here's the info about WxWidgets differences...this might help you keep your facts straight: http://wiki.wxwidgets.org/wiki.pl?WxWidgets_Compa
Sounds like someone who refuses to read how to build the tarball...which has some differences from the typical build instructions of other programs.
I've been able to build the nightly builds & official release tarballs of both mozilla (now seamonkey) and firefox for months with no problems at all, and they've worked great. All I had to do was follow the Instructions.
"Why do developers choose to write these great apps with GTK instead of QT?"
r ed_To_Other_Toolkits
m l) on top of the normal commercial version of Qt (the "professional edition").
0 000192.html.
Actually, I'll reproduce a portion of this article from http://wiki.wxwidgets.org/wiki.pl?WxWidgets_Compa
It certainly captures why I use WxGTK over Qt.
wxWidgets compared to Qt
* Both Qt (http://www.trolltech.com/) and wxWidgets have many non-GUI-related classes, such as date/time, containers, networking and OpenGL functionality. However, if you are developing commercial applications (non-gpl) in Qt and want to use most of these classes (including the OpenGL widget), you have to pay extra for the "enterprise edition" (http://www.trolltech.com/products/qt/editions.ht
* Qt2 is available under the GPL for open-source applications, and under the QPL for commercial applications. Qt3 for Mac and GNU/Linux is similarly dual-licensed, but there is no free version of Qt3 for Windows. All ports of wxWidgets are distributed under a permissive modified (but explicitly OSI-approved) LGPL.
o Trolltech has announced that Qt4 will be available under the GPL on Windows. See http://www.trolltech.com/newsroom/announcements/0
* Qt doesn't have true native ports such as wxWidgets ([with the exception of Qt/Mac].) Qt draws its own widgets on each platform instead of using the native widgets, whereas wxWidgets offers true native ports for all the supported platforms. Additionally, an approach similar to Qt's is achieved with wxUniversal (of course it should be noted that on some platforms, Qt _is_ the native GUI library.)
* Qt programs are not true C++ programs and require a special pre-compiler, the so-called Meta Object Compiler or moc. wxWidgets programs do not require this kind of preprocessing and are true C++ programs.
* Qt is used by several large projects like KDE and the Opera browser (on the other hand, wxWidgets is used by projects like the AOL Communicator)
* Qt makes extremely liberal use of virtual functions (QTWidget, the base class of all widgets in Qt had 91 at last count), giving it a more OO design than wxWidgets (which uses a more MFC-like approach using macros). What this means is fewer lines of code in general when using Qt, but faster execution speed when using wxWidgets (although the degree to which this occurs depends on whom you ask).
I certainly don't.
And if Gates had his way, everyone would be educated to pay him royalties for crap that doesn't work while surpressing any Real knowledge.
Gee, why I'm not enthralled with Ciphire protocols:
1) Another 'works perfectly program with WinXp, WinXX, etc.' that claims it will also support Linux/xBSD with no catches....where have I heard that one before?
2) Another Certificates laden protocol in the footsteps of SSL. (ie - you can have security if you pay us the megabucks for that 3 month term Certificate, but ignore those Certificates easily faked, etc.) I wish SSL would die instead of being a Certificate money making machine.
3) Another program that promises it will do everything SSH already does without the certificates....just buy a certificate to make Ciphire work.
You aren't kidding. Its amazing that they're the ones doing these surveys showing how low pay is for the IT sector, and they're the ones doing the lowballing. I pity the poor contractor who has to work for them.
I did work for them and just about went bankrupt in a crappy job paying 50% of my normal salary while trying to stay employed. They not only lowballed me, but they took the client company for a higher rate for my services than any other contract house I've ever worked for (easily triple my normal salary).
Be very skeptical of what they pass off as factual statistic.
Yes, I'm getting a tremendous view of the 'ignorant' here in the midwest right now.
I'm from Texas, but after 10 months of unemployment, I had to come to the midwest for the only contract job I could get at the time, just no Engineering jobs to be found there, and as long as Bush is in office, and has no interest in Science or Technology, there won't be any Engineering jobs in Texas. So I have to live among you midwesterns. I was hoping Kerry would get in office so I could get an Engineering job back home in Texas and once again live with my wife and family, but thanks to you 'ignorants in Ohio', I won't be going home anytime soon. And, no, I'm not moving my family up here when their quality of life is much better back in Texas (IE-Doctors here in the midwest don't want to treat anyone for anything in my experience). So thanks a lot ignorant midwesterners.
Since I have to live here, I think I'll just mess up your state.
Pray that I can go home soon.
--Qt/KDE Free and proud of it!
Can't say I have any sympathy for you. If you can't take a moment to actually read what's on the button before clicking it, you get what you deserve. I bet you'd have fun with the unregistered version of Winzip whereas everytime it is started, the license acceptance buttons are switched (ie-Don't Accept/Accept first time, Accept/Don't Accept next time, Don't Accept/Accept the 3rd time, etc.)
By The Way, I'm a Gnome User of many years.
Yes, considering at the time it was the only compiler product on the market after Borland kicked out Phillippe Khan and started screwing around with Borland's C++ Compiler (turning it totally into a RAD only tool).
Personally, I find GCC is one of the best compiler products on the market today.
I see the debate between the Basic vrs. Anti-Basic camps is also 40 years old and as strong as ever.
It would really help if the RPM packages tracked with what you get in a regular tarball. I've had too many cases where I installed an RPM, tried to configure it, and still not have it work...only to find that I got a lobotomized RPM package that didn't have everything, and I had to search for a second or third RPM that had the addon to the original RPM to let me do what I wanted. No thanks, I just download and compile the tarball and get everything I want first pass (including on where I want to put files).
Thankfully I have no such problems with Gentoo and their portage system.
As it is, I don't want to even attempt to emulate another 'grand MS idea'...especially since there are already superior non-MS systems out there that puts .net to shame. No, I'm not going to cite those systems...do your own research. You'd be surprised.
Die Mono Die!
Offer a 1 year fixed fee subscription and I'll consider subscribing if your fee is reasonable. But if I'm paying for this, I want to see *ZERO* advertisements and any number of slashdot pages I want. It is my money, and if you don't want to give me my money's worth, then I'll find other worthwhile subscriptions (like the Free Software Foundation.)
You'll feel much worse if someone breaks into your house and steals everything, the POLICE tell you that you should have installed a deadbolt and an alarm system, and the neighbor (who probably asked you to get security advice) is mad at you because the keys to his house he let you borrowed are also gone.
But if that is the only way you'll bother to get advice that could help you.....
How many companies/users has BSA extorted?