Linux Instant Messengers

mrAshley writes "This article talks specifically about the antiquated state of the even the best Linux instant messenging software, and generally about the need for software developers to be mindful of younger people, as their social attitudes towards software are going to be much more influential in than any moral or financial consideration. Simply put - People are communal. Don't make a person who wants to use Linux have to leave behind a method or style of communication."

Comments

gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[yagu]

I think gaim does a pretty good job, and I've actually converted lots of friends to gaim with no negative after taste. And most love the tabbed interface for multiple conversations in one window. It's nice also to have multiple protocols all available in the one application. My parents now chat with multiple people, in multiple environments, and they're not even aware that's happening. No more splaining that they have to start the yahoo messenger if they want to talk with Uncle Duane.

There's also the huge value add of no advertising.

But, I seem never to be able to upgrade gaim, at least not easily. I always have to do an rpm upgrade with the Force option because of "conflicts" with other gaim packages. And the last couple of new releases of gaim won't even install with "Force".

So, for my money, gaim comes close. Depending on the user, I've found many are okay using gaim.

As for the "state of the union" in Windows, with the recently announced merger of the Yahoo and MSN protocols (as in, freely communicate with each other), it does appear Microsoft is making its move to get closer to their tipping point to dominate the messaging market. They have some interesting features, none that I can't live without, but probably a good draw for the "hip" young crowd. I find most of the described features annoying, but then, I come from the old BSD/Sun "talk" days. Heck I guess I even come from the old Unix "write" days (get out your history books).

Let Microsoft add the fluff. But, a cautionary note, if history serves, what Microsoft is doing has the petina of old tricks. Should they manage to climb to the top and snuff out other IM services the way they've snuffed out other competitors I predict they once again will begin charging for what once was free. Or at least start charging for features that used to be free but have become addictive to their target demographic. (Hey, little girl/boy, want some streaming video with your chat?)

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[PacketScan]

I love Gaim.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[kevin_conaway]

Is it possible to use an AOL IM account with Gaim and talk with people on Jabber? Is there any IM client that can do that? Thanks.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[CyborgWarrior]

I've never had a single problem with GAIM, just compile it from source and it works just fine every time.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[nine-times]

It's nice also to have multiple protocols all available in the one application....There's also the huge value add of no advertising.

You got my two big concerns right there. I won't even consider an IM client unless it has those.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[Seumas]

Is it possible to use an AOL IM account with Gaim and talk with people on Jabber? Is there any IM client that can do that? Thanks.

Um. Yeah.... That's the entire point of Jabber. If you want to use an AOL account, use a jabber server that has an AIM transport. Same with Yahoo! and any of the others.

This whole complaint for the article is just stupid. Yeah, using linux really cuts you out from being able to communicate with people what with there only being a crapload of chat clients for it of which tkabber, Gabber, PSI and GAIM are only a few of the some 30 Jabber clients for the platform.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[infonography]

Trillian (on windows) has tabbed coversations as well, But it's maybe a little early to ask this, in a related article Yahoo and Microsoft to Merge Instant Messengers this means that the playing field is shifting shortly. Any recomendations now will be invalid in a few months.

I think that shortly it's going to be a market for not just clients but servers as well. I really don't like my internal corp chatter going across AOL or Yahoo's net.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[Creepy Crawler]

Here is an example of why Open Sourcers are bad.

(read parent)

Now, why do you think it's probably an example? "Cyborg Warrior" probably wont figure it out.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[Anonymous Coward]

I used to use GAIM on Windows until it broke because I did something as stupid as install Cygwin for some other developer tool.

I looked on the GAIM web site for help and was instead directed to a rant on why Windows is unpure and how I should reconfigure a bunch of other apps so that GAIM will work again. Fuck that, it's Windows, it's supposed to be garbage.

Instead I just deleted it and installed Trillian. Yeah, Trillian. But you know what? It never lectured me on how to make my desktop pure as part of a political rant. Instead it made my life much easier by just working without having to think about it.

Ahhh.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[thc69]

Your upgrade problem sounds like an rpm issue, not something particular to gaim (although I've never used gaim). I've always compiled everything from source, but recently decided to join the modern world during a distro change; I'm using SuSE and can't seem to get the hang of rpms.

Half of the rpms I try to install have conflicts or dependency errors that shouldn't be; also, isn't the rpm installer supposed to chase those dependencies for me? Most of the time, the error info given to me by the tool is inconsistent; on one line, it will say that it depends on foobar v2.3, and on the next, it will say that it conflicts with foobar v2.3...

Now I give up quickly and just compile from source.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[Anonymous Coward]

It's great that there are interoperable clients like Trillian, and open standards, but we already had an open standard with SIP and Gaim and Jabber don't really bring anything new to the table.

These other clients are great for text, but in today's world, we need real collaboration tools with remote desktop, whiteboard, etc.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[jrumney]

I used to use GAIM on Windows until it broke because I did something as stupid as install Cygwin for some other developer tool.

You put Cygwin in your Windows PATH right? There are warnings pretty much everywhere not to do that. It breaks lots of applications, not just Gaim, and is caused by Cygwin DLLs being incompatible with anything non-Cygwin.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[hpavc]

centericq + screen FTW

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[the unbeliever]

Quick question..why aren't you using yast? It should take care of all the problems you're describing.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[sremick]

I seem never to be able to upgrade gaim, at least not easily. I always have to do an rpm upgrade with the Force option because of "conflicts" with other gaim packages. And the last couple of new releases of gaim won't even install with "Force".

Not a Gaim problem. It's got to be a problem with your distro/packages. Echoing a lot of the replies you've already gotten, I've never had a problem upgrading Gaim. Granted I use FreeBSD, but still... it demonstrates the fault does not lie with Gaim.

I've converted lots of people on Windows to Gaim too. For the most part, they love it. The biggest issues they have are with lack of webcam support, and file transfers.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[Orlando]

I seem never to be able to upgrade gaim

Em, emerge gaim?

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[Abelard Lindsay]

Yes. Download it and try it out. There's a windows version as well...http://gaim.sourceforge.net/

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[ajlitt]

I can hear it now (apologies to any elderly nerdettes out there):

"Grandma, simply unpack the tarball, run ./configure; make, sudo to root, then make install.

C'mon, don't unpack it in your home directory! Don't you store all of your source-built apps somewhere?

No, Grandma, you forgot to install the header packages for GTK. But it's so easy! Why do you have to make this so difficult?!

Fine. Go watch your stories. I'll have it finished by the time Matlock is over."

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[op00to]

Uh, yes.

From the website:
Gaim users can log in to multiple accounts on multiple IM networks simultaneously. This means that you can be chatting with friends on AOL Instant Messenger, talking to a friend on Yahoo Messenger, and sitting in an IRC channel all at the same time.

It's really not that hard to, you know, go to the web site and READ about the product. /. is not your personal research assistant.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[Apreche]

I also use gaim, but have some problems with it different from the ones you have. Your problem upgrading gaim has to do with your choice of distro. Use a non-rpm distro and you will upgrade it easily.

I have problems with gaim not having full Jabber support. I can set a resource, but not a priority. I also can't add and remove aim/icq transports with gaim. So I have to use exodus to add the transport, but from then on gaim can use it. There are also problems with gaim and file transfer. It seems to work in some cases and not others. Kind of ironic that gaim supports the closed aim protocol better than it supports the open jabber protocol.

Overall I don't think IM is in a sad state in Linux. There are areas which are worse like easy support for multi-button mice, esp. Logitech. And audio is still pretty bad in Linux. I manage to solve my audio problem though by buying new speakers.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[Anonymous Coward]

People are sheep^H^H^H^H^H communal.

thanks but no thanks.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[Anonymous Coward]

I disagree the MSN features are mere bloat. Integrated webcam and voice functionality, integrated one-on-one games, custom emoticons, this is all stuff that is REALLY fun, and that I really miss ever since I switched to the mac. If you IM for business or getting in touch with family, then yeah, it's pretty much useless, but if you IM with friends or lovers then these features come in majorly handy.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[InfiniteWisdom]

GAIM works great for chat and IM, but things like file transfers are flaky at best. A lot of the "features" of the commercial clients are pure junk, but some like voice or video chat would be nice to have.

As for your upgrade problems... I don't know what distro you're using, but I'm using debian unstable, and have never, ever had any trouble.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[JonJ]

Quick question..why aren't you using yast? It should take care of all the problems you're describing. Because if he does, then he can't pull comments about rpms out of his ass anymore. People complain and bitch about rpms and dependency, guess what people? source, .deb, .tgz all have dependencies as well, and trying to install only _one_ package withouth the dependency will fail.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[LaughingCoder]

But, a cautionary note, if history serves, what Microsoft is doing has the petina of old tricks. Should they manage to climb to the top and snuff out other IM services the way they've snuffed out other competitors I predict they once again will begin charging for what once was free. Please help me out here. I am wracking my brain trying to think of a case where Microsoft started charging for something that was once free after they snuffed the competition. Let's see ... Operating Systems, nope, they never were free (though the service packs and updates have always been free) IE, nope, free (at least until the government intercedes on our behalf and makes us buy it) Media Player, nope, free (at least until the government intercedes on our behalf and makes us buy it) Outlook Express, always free, still free Office, nope, never was free - though the price has DROPPED significantly as competition has disappeared (remember Lotus, WordPerfect, Ashton Tate, CorelOffice, ...) PhotoStory, nope, was $29 as part of media pack, but now it's free Media Encoding tools, nope, was $100 as part of Video For Windows SDK, but now it's free How about games? I can't think of a single game Microsoft charges for that was formerly available for free. How about developer tools? MSDN, nope, still a pay-for service, though now there is a very nice alternative for free online SDKs, nope, some used to be pay-fors but now they are all free Visual Studio, nope, still a pay-for, always was (bundled with MSDN subscriptions though) SourceSafe, nope, always was a pay-for (bundled with MSDN subscriptions though) Let's go back further in time ... Disk Compression, nope, used to be a pay-for but now Microsoft bundles it for free in all OSes Disk Defragger, nope, used to be a pay-for but now Microsoft bundles it for free in all OSes Paint, Calculator, Notepad, HyperTerm, etc. etc. always free (and worth every penny ;-) Please help me out here. There MUST BE at least one example! I mean, after all, it's "common knowledge" that this is a predatory Microsoft practice.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[RWerp]

Does you grandma install Windows software? I suppose not, so stop bitching about how it is hard for her to install Linux software. She would have enough trouble with other OS-es as well.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[cayenne8]

I'm just curious, while I know most young kids out there in school and college use IM quite a lot, what about those of you out there in the 'earning a living' category? Do you IM very much?

I find that most everywhere I work, the IM ports are shut down as a matter of fact security hazard.

Since email is pretty much the most accessible internet communication form while at work, I find that I pretty much use it in 'real time'. I have my email client(s) up all day, and are constantly monitored. Since this is what I, and most of my friends seem to be used to, it carries over to when I use the computer at home.

What about the rest of you out there in the working world, do you IM that much?

Also, how are the young people of today going to react when they find they can't use a tool they are kinda of hooked on daily in the real work world?

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[ottothecow]

on mandrake you go start up the urpmi gui (aptly named "Install Software") and type gaim

You now have gaim and all its dependencies sorted out and it works. I love gaim on all OS's and have converted many people. My school (university of chicago) will actually be including Gaim on the CD they give all students (it now contains firefox and a preconfigured thunderbird).

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[Anonymous Coward]

Em, emerge gaim?

cool!

oh wait...

i don't use gentoo. and apparently neither does the parent since he said he has to force his gaim RPM upgrade...

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes she does, too much in fact. I would rather move her to Linux where she could not install anything instead of hearing about all of these 'programs' she gets through her email.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[oKtosiTe]

I don't think this is a valid argument at all, I've found that installing (open-source) software on my debian boxes usually takes less clicks and keystrokes than installing their commercial counterparts under RedmondOS xyz. Look here.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[.com b4 .storm]

Or at least start charging for features that used to be free but have become addictive to their target demographic. (Hey, little girl/boy, want some streaming video with your chat?)

That's fine with me, especially if their money keeps advertising out of my chat. See the latest AIM client for an example of the kind of abomination a lot of users wouldn't mind paying to avoid.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[Stripe7]

I converted to gaim from trillian about a year ago. I very much prefer Gaim, it does my IRC, yahoo and AIM messenging without any issues.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[Rei]

With a good setup, Linux software is much easier to install than Windows software. I set my partner's mother up with Synaptic and a monstrous apt4rpm source list. Works great :)

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[Anonymous Coward]

Thats the problem...You set up your parteners mothers m/c. She could have done it herself if it were Windows and Win XP is pretty stable too...

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[Anonymous Coward]

emerge gaim ...walk away to get grandma a cookie
walk back and click on the bald yellow fella in the toolbar

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[Phisbut]

I converted to gaim from trillian about a year ago. I very much prefer Gaim, it does my IRC, yahoo and AIM messenging without any issues.

I have come to hate Gaim very much over time... Whenever I try to update my MSN nickname, well... it doesn't. Whenever I try to connect to my company's internal Jabber network, well... it doesn't. I spent quite a while with both Gaim (for MSN) and PSI (for Jabber) running at the same time (kinda defeats the purpose of a multi-network IM client), until I found that Kopete does both almost perfectly (I can finally change my MSN nick, and connect on the Jabber network). For some reason, I can receive files from other but I can't send my own though.

Anyway, I am still very happy with Kopete, and I don't care for the small problems, because I believe that small problems on a Linux IM are better than a flashy MSN on Windows. However, I agree with the article that many people won't do the switch simply because the IM client doesn't flash.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[Blkdeath]

I'm just curious, while I know most young kids out there in school and college use IM quite a lot, what about those of you out there in the 'earning a living' category? Do you IM very much?

Not as a matter of course, no. I do use e-mail quite frequently as it also helps me communicate with many of my clients. People at work full-time just don't have the time to sit down at their PC and monitor a real-time messenger client. In effect, it becomes merely background noise.

The problem being, so many younger people are latching onto IM software and slowly creeping into the working world. In my job (sales) I can't be tied down to my computer. I talk to people all day long and oft times ignore my PC for hours on end. The first time I saw a nudge come across my screen from an impatient friend I disabled the functionality and set myself to always busy (with a message of "I'm at work, I'm probably away from my PC or busy with a client. I'll get back to you when I get a chance.")

The thing that worrys me about young people, IMs, and professional atmospheres is the IM-speek they develop. If I'm communicating with a client, I can't very well ask them if they r going 2 come 2 see me 2nite; but it's become such a natural rythm to these people (many of whom learn how to speek IM before they learn proper English) that it's going to take over their communications style. Be it 14 or 41, when I see somebody typing in IM it gives me the impression of an uneducated child.

To the security aspect, yes, I aboslutely agree. IMs are very dangerous tools when in the hands of the uneducated. With a plethora of trojans/viruses floating around that automatically spread to one's entire contact list it wouldn't take long to bring an entire office network to its knees. For what? The convenience of not having to walk across the room? Not dialing an extension? Not waiting 5-10 minutes for an e-mail response?

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[Anonymous Coward]

As far as I can tell, Microsoft chat requires a paid subscription. Yeah right, like I'm gonna give Microsoft more money! I'll stick to the free services thank you.

As far as "feature requests" go though, what I think is missing in consumer IM systems is encryption. Why should the net ops at AOL know how big your p.... never mind! ;)

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[FauxPasIII]

> Now, why do you think it's probably an example? "Cyborg
> Warrior" probably wont figure it out.

*ahem* Meeememememee... testing testing...
-tap- -tap- -tap- Hellooo helloo... okay, we're ready.

YHBT. YHL. HAND.

That's a wrap.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[spectral]

Strange, I just converted from gaim to trillian, as Trillian does my IRC, yahoo, and AIM messaging without any issues.

Issues I had with Gaim (win32):
Font support was crap. I blame this on GTK/Win32, making it near impossible to change the program's default fonts.

When docking/undocking the laptop, occasionally gaim would flip out and suck 99% cpu for 10seconds->10 minutes (longest I ever let it run), the time varied.

I disliked the interface for the accounts, I much prefer Trillian's 'connection bar' at the bottom to give me a quick view of what I'm on. Not one 'sign on' button, and then needing to find the 'auto-login' option in the system tray to actually do what I want..

Trillian seems to handle metacontacts slightly better, in my mind. I can't really put my finger on why though, it just feels nicer.

I dunno. I use both, still.. but prefer trillian.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[scotch]

Use a non-rpm distro and you will upgrade it easily.

FUD. Something is probably screwed up with his machine. RPMs work just fine when used with tools like yum or apt-get and with reliable/well-maintained package repositories. Gaim updates fine on my Fedora Core 4 machine, for example. Other package formats aren't some magic bullet that will prevent bugs, misconfigured repositories, dependencies errors, buggy repositories, package errors, etc, from causing you problems.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[Anonymous Coward]

Then run a jabber server internally.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[Steinfiend]

I would agree with you that most companies as standard will block any kind of IM access, at least for the "regular" staff. Those Cxx people might have access, I don't think they are the target market for MSNs latest flashy stuff.

Its been tried before where I've worked, both using internal only Jabber type service and AIM (ugh) service. In both cases they had to be shut down because of abuse. People messaging people inappropriately, people sending things they shouldn't send, and people messaging people that they shouldn't. The internal wasn't so bad because at least it was kept in house. The AIM however reflected VERY badly on the company, and we aren't willing to take that risk.

To be fair though, the few times I've had to use it in a corporate setting, the most a client general messaged me was;

Client: Hey, did you get that email I sent? See what you think and then email me back.
Me: OK

So I don't think we are missing out!

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[saider]

Grandma installs Windows programs all the time. She puts in the CD, clicks the "Install" button, Clicks all the "Next" buttons until she gets to "Finished". Then she's up and running!

Installing software can be a nightmare on both systems. The difference is that most of the options in the Windows Installer simply requires a mouse click. No typing whatsoever. Also, library dependency on Windows is largely a thing of the past (remember the VBRUNxxDLL errors?).

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[timster]

In my experience, most people cannot set up their machines themselves. I'm not talking about OS installation here. Most people who buy, say, a Dell, try to get someone to help them set it up.

Also, a better distro could easily have the setup that Rei describes included by default. But making a good distro is really, really hard.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[Eil]

But, I seem never to be able to upgrade gaim, at least not easily. I always have to do an rpm upgrade with the Force option because of "conflicts" with other gaim packages. And the last couple of new releases of gaim won't even install with "Force".

While there is plenty wrong with Gaim, this particular issue is a problem with your operating system, not Gaim. First, upgrading apps on an RPM-based distro has always sucked. Using an OS with sane package management (Gentoo, FreeBSD, Debian) will eliminate this issue entirely.

Second, if you're running into conflicts and dependency problems, then you're not (or haven't been) using RPMs designed for your specific distro and version. When I was using Mandrake 8.0, I never could keep it stable for very long when I started installing RPMs created by third parties, Mandrake 7.2, or Cooker, etc. As long as I stuck to the Mandrake 8.0 RPMs, everything was fine. Problem is, they never upgrade them (except to fix security bugs) and they never create new ones after the release. As far as I know, this problem still afflicts all RPM-based distros today.

Third, if you're using --force, then you should be expecting things to break, not acting surprised when they finally do.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[Shakrai]

You put Cygwin in your Windows PATH right?

And if somebody had pointed that out to him he might have stayed with GAIM. He was making the observation about the RTFM and political attitude of certain people in the OSS World being highly unhelpful.

And I totally agree with him.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[advocate_one]

just wait a week, they can't bitch about installing software on Linux once Ubuntu Breezy is officially released...

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[Anonymous Coward]

Problem with any of the instant messengers in linux is they all lack a lot of functionality.

Random chat seeking ala ICQ is one, although centerICQ does have it somewhat I think

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[Peter La Casse]

What about the rest of you out there in the working world, do you IM that much?

My employer started using IM pretty regularly at the beginning of the year. They bought everyone webcams, and we use Yahoo Messenger to videoconference during meetings (some participants are geographically remote.) So whenever I have a meeting, I need to boot up the windows laptop (Gaim on Linux doesn't support Yahoo videoconferencing yet.) They seem unconcerned about the idea of sending unencrypted trade secrets out into the wild woolly internet, but such is life. Maybe Yahoo doesn't data mine conversations.

I IM with personal accounts periodically, but I generally don't log on during the workday (email's distracting enough) and I often forget to log in at home.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[SCO STINKS]

tkabber, Gabber, PSI and GAIM are only a few of the some 30 Jabber clients for the platform

KIt Kwould Kbe Knice Kif Kthese Kapplications Khad Keasier Kto Kunderstand Knames.

Sorry, I've been using KDE too long!

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[garns]

It would be difficult to charge for IM. It is essentially fast email. And one could write a program in a matter of a couple hours that would basically provide the same functionality (limited to chatting obviously).

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[mattyrobinson69]

its not that hard nowadays -
sudo apt-get install gaim
*******

but serously, real distro's have pointy clicky frontends to apt/yum/whatever, there's also ssh if granny cant manage that.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[art123]

Can only think of one thing: POP access to Hotmail. Used to free (maybe just while in beta though) and now costs.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[mustangsal66]

You must be a Slackware user.

Most use apt-get, yum, or some other package manager that will solve your dependancy issues.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[thc69]

I am using yast, specifically because I thought it would "take care of all the problems". Are there other rpm tools in SuSE?

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[tdvaughan]

Um. Yeah.... That's the entire point of Jabber. If you want to use an AOL account, use a jabber server that has an AIM transport. Same with Yahoo! and any of the others.

Actually, the whole point of Jabber is to be an open-source, well documented and extensible message transfer protocol. Server-side transports are there primarily to lower the barrier to entry.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[orasio]

Does the word "Gentoo" ring a bell for you?

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[doubledoh]

I think you've made a good point which will unfortunately be ignored here. Microsoft, in my opinion, has HELPED foster competition, not hurt it. The consumer wins because Microsoft mass produces software and sells it at a lower price (or gives it away for free). What Microsoft did to the browser market (and the office market in the 90's) is no different from what Google has done to the web based email industry. Sure some businesses fall by the wayside because they can't compete with free or really cheap, but so what? It's not the consumer's responsibility to protect ailing businesses. The only responsibility consumers have is to create demand for higher quality and lower prices. Microsoft has met much of that demand...and that is why they are where they are today.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[dlZ]

I have one major client that uses IMs to communicate, and many of the workers speak in IM-speak. Even when they use it to send me a message I reply back in full sentences. At least I managed to get them off of MSN and onto an internet Jabber server. A ton of their employees were wasting time talking to friends on MSN instead of working. The Jabber server didn't make me too popular with their employees until they found the smiley faces in the client *sigh*.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[Anonymous Coward]

Gaim has an autopackage available, dumbass.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[Quino]

Just the opposite for me, actually. I work for a large and mostly stodgy international technology corporation that is actually trying to get people to use the corporate chat client for "better productivity".

There's a Gaim plugin -- so that's what I use in lieu of the official chat client (Gaim is nicer).

Around here the population is broken down into two demographics: 30ish (and younger) and "about to retire". The "fogies" for the most part seem convinced that this IM thing is another cheesy push by the company that they're pretty sure they won't find useful. In my particular group, I fall in the younger group of people (along with 3 other co-workers in a team of about 20). All three of us "young whipper snappers" are always on the chat client -- none of the rest of my team ever is.

Ironically enough, around here the official stance is "please try out this IM with your coworkers!" and people for the most part aren't interested.

But, IM is actually officially encouraged around here. The only thing that sort of amazes me is that the corporate client won't allow sharing of files -- which would often come in handy.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[vagabond_gr]

- Grandpa, simply unpack the tarball, run ./configure; make, sudo to root, then make install.

- Whaaaat

- tar -xzf gaim.tar.gz && cd gaim && ./configure && make && sudo make install

- Whaaaat

- Ok, let's use apt-get, it's easier

- Whaaat, I can't hear a damn thing

- Synaptic?

- Kids nowdays have no values. I remember when I was fighting the germans, they were a dozen and I only had a swiss knife, /long_story_here

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[thc69]

Because if he does, then he can't pull comments about rpms out of his ass anymore.

Sorry, I don't have a Millennium Year Application Software System.

source, .deb, .tgz all have dependencies as well, and trying to install only _one_ package withouth the dependency will fail.

I was under the (obviously mistaken) impression that the purpose of a package management system was to automatically install dependencies so the user doesn't need to.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[RevAaron]

What do you define as IM? I sit on IRC all day, and a lot of the other folks who are on Freenode are wage slaves who are on IRC all day. I use IRC for my IMing as well as group-chat-type stuff. I also sit on AIM all day so that a couple people who I know who does use IRC can get a hold of me. I sit on Jabber, as a few co-workers use it- the Univ of Minnesota runs their own jabber server (chat.umn.edu). my girlfriend's place of employment has a proprietary secure IM server for everyone at her workplace, who are spread among many buildings/houses. I use IRC/IM to communicate with my girlfriend those sorts of "bring home some milk and bread" messages, rather than email or the phone. I'm relatively young, 25. But I don't use IMing like the 18 year olds I see coming into the University system...

So yeah, it's not just for 13 year olds.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[halfelven]

Your problem upgrading gaim has to do with your choice of distro. Use a non-rpm distro and you will upgrade it easily.

Mwaaaahahahahaha! Mod parent "uneducated rant".

Which part of "yum update gaim" you don't find easy?

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[ElGuapoGolf]

Google on "Apt for SuSE". I use it, it is fantastic.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[halfelven]

Please mod parent up, it points out real and important issues.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[rizzo420]

i work in a college. need i say more? i use IM all the time to chat with my student employees. it's usually easier to get them on IM than phone or email.

and i used it to chat with my girlfriend who is living about 300 miles away now for grad school...

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[halfelven]

upgrading apps on an RPM-based distro has always sucked. Using an OS with sane package management (Gentoo, FreeBSD, Debian) will eliminate this issue entirely.

Uninformed rant, please mod down.

Counter-example: on Fedora, yum performs the same functions as emerge on Gentoo, including dependency solving, automatic downloads of software, package updates, etc.

Please keep yourself up to date with the reality before opening mouth (or typing away).

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[zootm]

This whole complaint for the article is just stupid. Yeah, using linux really cuts you out from being able to communicate with people what with there only being a crapload of chat clients for it of which tkabber, Gabber, PSI and GAIM are only a few of the some 30 Jabber clients for the platform.

That's not what the article is arguing at all.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[AuMatar]

I'm like you- I used to use it as a way of keeping in contact with people from high school (while in college), or a way of talking to 3-4 people at once in other dorms. SInce college I've pretty much stopped- the people I wanted to talk to I no longer do, or have stopped themselves. And most of us don't want to be bothered while at work. So with the few people on it almost never at their computers, I find it mainly just sits there for weeks at a time these days.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[bytor4232]

Both rock. Pine on screen 0, centericq on screen 1, epic4 on screen 2.

To make it even better, I have a screen feature called "caption" enabled in screenrc. That makes a status bar at the bottom of the screen session. Use the speaker for the sound device, and whalla, notifications at the bottom of the screen. Its pretty nice.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[mellon]

Gaim is actually pretty pathetic compared to what Apple ships. When I connect to AIM from iChat, I see peoples' names and their pictures. In GAIM, I see their AIM ID, which is usually something weird that I may not even recognize, and usually no picture (it gets some pictures, and not others; I don't know why). GAIM wins over AIM because there are no ads - AIM on Windows is absolutely repulsive, to the point where I simply won't run it. Kopete is even worse than GAIM - it gets _no_ images.

I'm really being an asshole by saying these things about GAIM and Kopete, though - both applications are very slick if you don't compare them to Apple's offering. They seem pathetic in comparison, but on their own they are very nice.

Is this the thing that really needs to be fixed for Linux to take off? Frankly I'm not convinced. Reliable device drivers would be nice. A consistent UI would be nice. A fancy instant messager? I don't think that's going to be the thing that makes the difference, although it's certainly worth pursuing if someone has time.

By consistent UI, consider this. KDE has a really nice PIM application called Kontact, which actually subsumes several other applications, including kmail. Kmail is probably the nicest mail program out there other than Apple's Mail.app, and in some ways it's nicer. Kontact also includes an RSS feed watcher called Akregator. To move from one email message to the next in kmail, you hit 'n'. In akregator, you hit the right arrow. The up and down arrows, which are what I would *expect* to work consistently, do nothing in either application.

It would be great to have a nice IM tool, but frankly if we can't manage a consistent UI, where I have some ability to predict what's going to happen when I hit a particular key without reading the instructions, only people who really strongly believe they need to be running Linux are going to run it; everyone else is going to give up in frustration.

BTW, I'm picking on KDE, but I actually just gave up on Gnome and tossed it; in my mind, KDE has a much more consistent UI than Gnome, but it still needs a *lot* of work.

On the hopeful side, KDE is *hugely* improved from the last time I used it. About a year and a half ago I was running Linux with KDE, and it was so visually unappealing (okay, I'm shallow, I admit it) that I ditched it and switched back to Mac. This time the visuals are a _lot_ better. But we still need a more consistent UI. Scratch that. We need a consistent UI. The current UI lacks any quality of consistency.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[hpavc]

Agreed, if you want to actually see or speak to your friends that use the oem client your out of luck. If you want to get the enhanced protocol stuff or value adds to their services like 'you have new mail in your singles profile' notification your out of luck.

I just want to chat with people over all the modern protocols + rss and live journal and give myself some ability to script some sexy notification stuff.

With centericq and screen I am very happy, I can go anywhere and still have my client running, windows, osx, or linux. Which for me that type of running around is how things are.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[Cat_Byte]

I've never used epic4 but I use BitchX and have no complaints. I'm not in IRC very often anyway.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[Anonymous Coward]

No, it isn't. Ignore these stupid people who paid no attention whatsoever to your question. In order for someone on Jabber to talk to U, they need have to have an AIM account and be using a Jabber server with an AIM transport; or U need to have a Jabber account. In order to talk to someone on MSN, you'd need an MSN account. Same for ICQ, Yahoo!, et al. There are a lot of clients like gaim that can connect these accounts under one interface. But until the IM companies start using interoperable protocols, there's no manner in which your AOL account can speak directly to someone's Jabber account. Y! and MSN are supposedly doing it; I hope, but do not believe, they will use the XMPP standard and automatically bring Jabber into the fold.

AOL and Microsoft are evil. Period. I will not sign up for accounts on either of their networks. Therefore I can not talk to less stringent friends on those networks. No client out there changes that. Period.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[Zenaku]

Hmmm. Odd. I use IM all the time at work, both for business and personal communications. I've never worked anyplace where the ports for it have been blocked, and if they were, well that's what SSH and port forwarding are for. Email is for worthless bulk communications from HR to everyone, corporate announcements, meeting invitations, and sending attachments. And maybe for sending someone a message when they are away from their desk, if you need to do so before you forget. If you need to communicate with one person, why not IM? You can easily see if they are away or busy or not, and you don't have to disturb your 5 cube-neighbors by talking on the phone. And when a message comes in, you can interrupt your thoughts at the next convenient moment to respond, without having to be interrupted by a visitor right in the middle of a line of code. It's semi-realtime, but not realtime.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[hpavc]

I wrote a sick perl script that forwards me notifications to me via the external actions, to a realbasic daemon that sits on my workstations, laptops. Then I can get all the normal oem audio as well as notifiations from mutt if my screen is attached.

But yes, the little 'all in one tty, forever uptime tty' is great ... home, work, on a webpage, etc.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[sirwallyc]

"Heck I guess I even come from the old Unix "write" days (get out your history books)."

You're much more polite than me. I just shouted at everyone using "wall" ;-)

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[Gizzmonic]

"With a good setup" is a mouthful. My roommate runs Linux full time (has for 5 years) and he's always complaining about how he can't get his movie player, sound card, and video card (with acceleration) all working together at the same time.

The common defense on this site is "He's probably stupid!" because he can't do it, or because he picked the wrong distro. He's stupid all right, just like everyone else who uses a computer. When full time geeks can't get it done, how can we reasonably expect normal computer users?

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you missed his requirement in your rush to put him down.

The way I read it, he wants to log in with one protocol and be able to connect with users of another.

As far as I know, Gaim doesn't do that.

[Aside: FWIW, I like Gaim for giving me the ability to be connected with 2 different MSN accounts (work and personal) at the same time. Back when I was using Trillian, I don't think I could do that.]

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[rcbarnes]

It's offtopic, but in response to your sig:

The best place to sell off Magic cards is 1999 or, barring that, someone who's stuck there but visits 2005 eBay. :-P

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[Blakey Rat]

GAIM (and it's sister on OS X Adium) doesn't reliably transfer files. If it could transfer files without issues even 75% of the time, I'd be more than happy with it... as is, I use MSN Messenger and AIM. (Fortunately, the OS X version of these are about 50,000 times better than the Windows version.)

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[jedidiah]

No, the article is complaining that you don't have the ability to take over your friends screens with obnoxious nonsense.

          IM in Unix is old news. Even obnoxious features in Unix IM is old news.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, it's great, but sometimes I wish XMove weren't sooo slow and flakerific for those "must-be-gui" apps.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[zootm]

Yep. The really worrying thing is that it makes a good point.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[bahwi]

I use gaim on windows, easy to upgrade too. =)

Ever try AIM on windows? Yeah, like if you could take functionality out of a program and still somehow use it, you know, with ads too. Not to mention it doesn't help that I have 3 AIM names(Work, Other Work, Personal), 2 Yahoo(Work, Personal), and can log into my google talk account.

Rather stable too, with the same memory leaks GTK seems to be plagued with. All that means is restart it at least once a day and you're fine. Some say every couple of days, but I always turn my computer off at night anyways.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[electroniceric]

Microsoft's main effort has always been to block open standards and instead drive integration with their OS.

Kerberos: was free, now extended into Active Directory and Windows Authentication so you cannot use Kerberos as a way to authenticate under Windows.

Websites you can use from any OS - were free under Netscape before IE was bundled with Windows and Netscape snuffed out, now many sites require IE and ActiveX to use, thereby precluding using browser + Java as a desktop OS.

Java applets - free functionality when your JVM ran them properly, after Microsoft's crippled JVM broke them, no longer free.

That list doesn't even mention its attempts to commandeer the SOAP and WSDL standards, block sales of dual-boot machines, obfuscate SMB protocols, etc.

And if you compare how the price of a DVD player has dropped with commoditization versus the price of a productivity suite (which by all accounts ought to be commoditized), you'll be substantially less impressed with its "new, low" pricing.

Microsoft has made some really good software in its lifetime. Excel, for example, has been head and shoulders above other spreadsheets for nearly a decade. When IE5 came out, it broke a lot of new ground. SQL Server has matured into a credible mid-market database server with a thorough set of tools. And there's no doubt that the /. crowd will always pooh-pooh Microsoft's work in providing a standardized UI and set of network management tools.

But the company's basic business strategy is unquestionably built around its Windows and Office monopolies, and sometimes this involves anticompetitive behavior. At the time IE was both released for free and integrated into Windows, Microsoft was also "cutting off Netscape's air supply" with OEMs and crippling Java. So free isn't exactly free with Microsoft.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[jedidiah]

Mandrake and friends have been managing that for supported hardware for a number of years now. It will do so even for randomly selected laptops. So this notion that a 5 year Linux user has such persistent problems is absurd.

          The common defense to your statement should be that you're a lying sack of...

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[jedidiah]

Well, when you BUY softwares for Unix those tend to come with shiny happy installers as well. Your implication that such is not the case for Linux (or even UNIX in general) is simple FUD.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[killjoe]

WAAAAAH Mommy make them stop. They gave me something free and now they don't want to babysit me while I fumble around trying to make it work.

Hey why don't you call MS and try to get help with MSN messenger, that ought to be a hoot!.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[jedidiah]

You mean undercutting innovators with copycat product, selling product at a loss because they have a monopoly cash cow they can fall back on.

        Before Microsoft's "HELP" a home user didn't need something that was overkill like WordPerfect. They were able to use a perfectly servicable and scaled down application that actually fit their needs and budget instead of some one-size-fits-all monster that propagates due to network effects.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[XchristX]

Try gnomemeeting on Linux. Also, there's gyach & gaim-vv, both of which support voice & video

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[Bnonn]

Well what's he supposed to do? Say "Good job for ignoring all the warnings and expecting it work anyway"? Sometimes, installing certain tools requires you to know what you're doing. Heaven forbid that you learn something when using a computer! Honestly, installing Cygwin isn't something that your average user is going to do. I would assume, and I think justly so, that anyone doing this is a power user, and able to recognize the need to read the freaking manual sometimes.

On the other hand, if he'd been doing the same thing in, say, Ubuntu, he would almost certainly have found the package in universe or multiverse, selected it to install, and watched it do its thing without breaking anything. So don't let's start with the idea that installing software on Windows is better/easier.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[Anonymous Coward]

Bitlbee is much cooler than centericq. It communicates IM using IRC as a gateway.
screen+irssi --> bitlbee

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[XchristX]

Grandma puts in the CD, clicks the "install" button. The program rewrites the firewall rules , starts broadcasting 10 Trojan horse servers and changes the tcp wrappers file to redirect all urls to gay pron.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[pjbgravely]

Try ayttm, it is like Gaim but has YIM web cam support.
Surprised the article didn't mention aMSN either.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[pthisis]

I'm just curious, while I know most young kids out there in school and college use IM quite a lot, what about those of you out there in the 'earning a living' category? Do you IM very much?

Absolutely. I almost never use it outside of work. But it's very convenient at work, and every office I've been in has used some form of IM extensively. It's a hell of a lot easier to throw URLs and commands back and forth in IM than in email (let alone by voice).

Examples:
Developer1: Do you know the syntax off the top of your head to make an existing column autoincrement in mysql?
Developer2: alter table modify column type autoincrement

or

Developer: What's next most important for CLIENT?
Project Manager: Finish up the issue you're working on first, then take a look at this: http://bugtracker-bugurl/?bugid
or:
Secretary: Reminder to all: company meeting is starting in 1 minute in the conference room

It also has the advantage of letting you keep in touch with peers who work elsewhere--I have friends who I know are familiar with certain commands or whatever, and for some packages it's a lot quicker for me to ask them (and vice-versa) "what's the flag to do X" than to dig through the docs.

Also, how are the young people of today going to react when they find they can't use a tool they are kinda of hooked on daily in the real work world?

Badly, as they should if the company they work for doesn't allow them a valuable communications tool.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[AlferdPacker]

I've used IM in every company I've worked for in the past five years. Private offices combined with ubiquitous IM usage gives you the best of both worlds -- you get the highly collaborative environment like when you have your whole team in a room and, when you want privacy, you just set your IM to "busy."

As mentioned above, it also allows you to extend your collaborative environment to everyone you've ever worked with -- you have the resources of your entire career and you become a resource for that much larger group.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[Anonymous Coward]

I use slackware - therefore I suffer from no dependancy issues.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[anti-trojan]

Trillian (at least the Pro version I am using) can do the same. I don't know about the free version, though.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, actually. By the way, I'd like some of your limited ass, ho.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[sebrem]

I actually use centericq within a profiled gnome-terminal and ratpoison as "Window"-Manager. It is doing a fine job here. :)

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, yes, that's what email is for.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[TeXMaster]

.tar.gz? What is the "parent parent" using, slackware? Installing GAIM under Debian is as easy as feta install gaim, for example. And there are graphical interfaces for that, too.

Yes, you have to be root, but that has nothing to do with open source. It has to do with network- and multi-user- aware operating systems. In Windows XP (or any other NT-based Windows version) you have to be an administrator, or a user with administrator rights (i.e. someone in the "root" group or with passwordless sudo, if you want it in Linux terms) too.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[laplandsix]

Yeah, not to mention the fact that _every_ _single_ package you're going to install via synaptic will install the exact same way. You've got this framework that contains all the install processes. Check a box, hit install and you're done.

How many install frameworks does Windows have? MSI, InnoSetup, InstallShield, WISE setup, ect, ect, ect. Each with its own dialog boxes, visual style, and install steps. And you can't choose what framework to use, you're at the mercy of the manufacturer.

As always I think that issues like this are overblown. Any modern distro is going to have one consistent tool that will allow you to install software with a minimal amount of pain. However, everyone likes to cite examples from 4 years ago to prove their point. "Man, Linux is so hard to install software, you have to UUDecode the tarball from usenet, making sure to grab all the parts, then you have to untar it and then you have to chase down all the dependancies and then..."

Heh, now of course all the windows fanboys will point and snort and shout and say.
"no no that's what you did! That's what you did! You used an example from 5 years ago! Everyone is swtiched over to MSI now, no one uses installshield or WISE setup anymore. Installshield is _so_ 2000."
To this, I preemptively respond
"Bzzzt! Wrong again skippy! I'd say it's about 50% MSI and 50% others. You've got some pretty big names still on non-MSI install platforms. Adobe immediately springs to mind."

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[hpavc]

Ratpoison is very cool, I have tried to go that route. But I am not hard core enough --- kudos for your patience. I think that project needs more sample configs or techniques for handling applications or rather what to expect. Opening an browser or using xmms can frighten people off in the default setup.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[Anonymous Coward]

It's that idiocy that is keeping Linux behind. Windows and most other commercial operating systems can guide you through installation. They tell you what to do, you simply read a few instructions and it tells you what is going on.

And don't go saying your bull repositories are any better, I don't want to take the time to submit my five minute quickly made game to a repository just so I can let a friend install it easily. With Windows or another OS I simply create an installer (using an easy to follow wizard) and then I email it to my friend. They download, open the file (a simple double click) and follow instructions on the screen. That is painfully difficult (sarcasm!).

Linux is too freaking complicated for anyone with no experience. And unfortunately for Linux supporters, that is the largest audience out there. That's why desktop Linux will never come to frutition.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[taupter]

Kopete does video chat, and amsn does too. Kopete does video chat in MSN and Yahoo! protocols.

Cláudio da Silveira Pinheiro
Kopete Developer

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[mjt AG]

I know this is a little offtopic, but if you're using a linux box and can't decide on a IM app, you can always point someone to using http://www3.meebo.com/. This uses ajax so that you can IM online through port 80 (especially useful when any of the IM ports are being blocked at work).

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[BottleCup]

My impression of the article is that it is trying to get OSS developers to start putting in a little effort to having little "bells and whistles". I dont think Gaim, Kopete or any other OSS Instant Messenger should go out of its way and try to support Yahoo Avatars or anything like that.

What the article is saying is that Gaim/Kopete/whatever should try to create an environment which is fun and attractive to the younglings. Perhaps this can be done by encouraging younger developers to participate. If not for programming, at least engage them in designing some sort of attractive user interface.

The only problem would be, how to get younger people interested in this....

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[DrCode]

Er, no. It's: "Grandma, type 'emerge gaim'...

"Come back in a few hours and you'll be ready to go."

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[llefler]

Well, the attitude that everyone should build from source can be a problem. But not with gaim. I haven't had any problems with Debian (apt-get) and Windows, as least not in the recent past. There was a time when the gtk libraries were a separate install for Windows, and for at least a short time it was hard to find the right ones. I prefer not to build applications, I get enough of that at work, so if a binary is available I use it. My biggest problem is remembering to install upgrades. I downloaded 1.5, but I'm still running 1.2.1.

FWIW, I like gaim because I can use the exact same app when I can choose my OS and when I can't. And multi-protocol is a must.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[skiflyer]

No such troubles for me, GAIM works great all the time and I can upgrade it, and I love that I don't have to have AIM & MSN & Yahoo & ICQ all running anymore, and I love even more that when I have multiple conversations going I can keep them in one window.

But, I can't send photos or files over these networks, and that really bites because I have to keep loading those clients and asking the sender to hold on a second, big hassle... my biggest feature request would be to implement the "direct connect" and similar features.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[Anonymous Coward]

Also worth to mention BitlBee: http://bitlbee.org/

It converts ICQ, Yahoo, MSN, Jabber to IRC protocol. You need just standard IRC client to talk with your *IM friends!

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[Dan_Bercell]

History eh??? Hotmail has been free for years, they have always had a 'version of it people can purchase' but my account has been free for years.

Same goes for Outlook Express, Internet Explorer (requirement for alot of work releated work), Office viewers..excel, word powerpoint..etc... Need I go on?

Please provide some examples when you make claims like that. Since Windows 95 I have never seen MS offer a free product, get a strong hold on the market they force people to purchase it...

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[EvilSporkMan]

If you made a game in 5 minutes, it sure as hell doesn't need an installer on Linux. Tell your friend to install the libraries it uses with the normal packaging system and send him a binary, assuming he uses the same distro as you. If he doesn't, send him source, the command line you use to build it, and the names of the dev libraries he should install with his friendly package management.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[Anonymous Coward]

Agreed!

IM'ing is MUCH more mission critical.

We probably work for the same company.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[timbo234]

Why do these tired old Linux-is-hard-to-install-software trolls keep getting modded up on slashdot?

All grandma has to do on Mandriva is software->configuration->packaging->Install Software, type GAIM and click install. Ubuntu, Suse, Linspire etc. all have similar Install systems that are just as easy.

No worse than trying to get her to goto gaim.sf.net, find and download the 'Windows Installer', find where she downloaded it, double-click it, click next, agree to this, choose an install location, choose optional components etc.

The good thing about the Linux was is when she runs the update program next (or turns on automatic updates) she will get the latest Gaim, or at least the backported update to fix that latest security hole they found in it, along with all the other programs installed on her machine.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[Jambon]

Gaim is the best messenger that Linux has IMHO. However, when compared to the equivilent windows messengers, it falls short. Not flat on its face, but short.

For example, having friends in both Canada and the US, I have to use both MSN and AIM. I do not want a hundred windows floating about, so I use trillian. Trillian is nice. It has a good interface and has tabs and all that jazz. Only problem is it tends to crash and and occasionally has orphaned some rather important contacts. However, these problems I deal with because I have no other decent choice (I'm running all this off my ipod on lab computers and the GTK won't install there).

Now I have successfully gotten several people over to trillian, and most of them have stuck with it. The few times I have had friends use gaim they haven't been too enthralled by it. My sister and I once had problems with multiple instances of gaim which ended in many of our contacts being switched.

My gripes with gaim have mainly to do with interface. First, I hate it that there has to be that damn little away window. Some times I want to appear away so people won't bother me. Please don't bother me with a window. Also, Gaim's stubborness with refusing to support skins is a bit annoying. They claim it's so people have an easier time helping you, but I don't see that as much of an excuse as you can simply change to the default skins when you need help.

And for those of you saying that jabber can do all that...uh, well, it can't. Yes, it does give you the basic instant messanging things, but it doesn't have all the extra bells and whistles which keep people with MSN or AIM or whatever. Gaim's MSN bell and whistle support may be lacking, but jabber's is nonexistent.

So, what to do? Well, you could try basing a multiprotocol IM off XML or the EFL or something. Both of those I believe would make huge improvments to eyecandy. The video chat and such may be more of a problem. My hope is that google ponies up some video chat capability and allows both it and its existent audio chat to be ported to other messengers. MS isn't going to play ball. That's their whole plan.

The fact is if Linux is going to make more headway into the desktop its IM capabilities have to improve. You have to catch 'em young people! Start 'em smoking..er...messenging on Linux while their fragile little minds are still be shaped. Ok, so all my credibility was just lost with that last sentence, but it's not like this things is going to be read by anyone or even modded.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[Peter La Casse]

Thanks (and to the other posters who suggested different programs too.) Looks like it's time to download the KDE 3.5 beta.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[Anonymous Coward]

A whole bunch of Linux geeks screaming about how great their chosen OS and how the shit that runs on it is made of gold begins in 3...2...1. What they don't mention is that every once in a while they have to sacrifice a virgin P4 to Linus and his minions.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[Anonymous Coward]

No. skinz are evil. if you want skinz, go fuck up some other app. not my gaim. ;)

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[motox]

As a matter of fact, due to its multi-messenger, multi-account capabilities, i use Gaim even on Win32. Allows me to chat with every other user, using multiple accounts. Except for the eye candy ( which lately means mostly annoying advertisement and pay features ), OSS in this case is really one step ahead, not behind. Effective and functional. After all i need to talk not to send animated hearts full-screen or buzzes that make the windows shake.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[Eil]

Counter-example: on Fedora, yum performs the same functions as emerge on Gentoo, including dependency solving, automatic downloads of software, package updates, etc.

No, _this_ is uninformed. Yum and the Gentoo ebuild system are worlds apart. They may perform the same ultimate end function (installing software), but otherwise their implementations are at opposite ends of the spectrum.

Sorry, but I stand by my original claim. I used Fedora for about 6 months on my laptop and switched away from it for most of the same reasons that I switched away from Mandrake. Namely: consistent use of third-party RPMs will break the system eventually (whether or not they're installed by yum), and that packages never get updated or added to after release except to fix security vulnerabilities.

I'm not going to get into an argument over the tiny little details of why I prefer FreeBSD and Gentoo to an RPM-based system because this is neither the time nor the place. Suffice to say that in literally years of administration, I've never seen either FreeBSD or Gentoo screw up a system as thoroughly as when battling with the deficiencies of RPM in Mandrake and Fedora.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[Shakrai]

Honestly, installing Cygwin isn't something that your average user is going to do. I would assume, and I think justly so, that anyone doing this is a power user, and able to recognize the need to read the freaking manual sometimes.

Yes, and when he goes to the forum asking for help it's just as easy and ten times as productive to mention the Cygwin problems and suggest looking into that avenue as it is to spout "RTFM you fucking noob".

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[mqduck]

"And most love the tabbed interface for multiple conversations in one window."

i find it very funny to read that, since I've asked myself many times "why is this feature on by default? who the holy hell would want it?" weird.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[Dr. Photo]

i find it very funny to read that, since I've asked myself many times "why is this feature on by default? who the holy hell would want it?" weird.

Well, if you're having the same conversation with your self over and over again, you probably don't need tabs, or multiple chat windows, for that matter... ;-)

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[Anonymous Coward]

"you're" It's a fucking contraction, you aren't owning something.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[sebrem]

I think that project needs more sample configs or techniques for handling applications or rather what to expect.

Good point, maybe I should post some configs to my home page. A friend (who brought me to ratpoison and who I got fixed to CenterICQ ;) ) showed me CenterICQ is able to trigger external actions, which leads to ratpoison showing a message when CenterICQ receives an event, depending on my status.
I like to use my keyboard instead of the mouse (also I use opera as browser because of its advanced keyboard support, maybe there is an extension for ff also), but it certainly needed time to get used to this.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[kiddygrinder]

Hah! The hard part is to get them to stop installing programs! I keep telling her "Smileys are bad! they're like the color red in nature, you wouldn't click on a red back spider." but everytime i turn up there's crap spread 6 ways from sunday (well not really, or else i'd give her a low access account, but you get that).

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[stoborrobots]

I'm no zealot, so if you've found a solution which works for you, then great. Otherwise, (or if you have need for it in the future), you may want to check out floppyfw, or one of the other floppy-based distros. They typically target 386-class machines, so will usually support ancient hardware.

Other useful pages:

• Newsforge article on floppyfw and Coyote Linux
  
• SANS floppy-based firewall review
  

Not all of us who choose to use and recommend such systems are jerks. I'm sorry you had to deal with them, but unfortunately I don't know anywhere online where you can get useful help from the more helpful of us, without getting drowned out by the blind zealotry.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[RWerp]

Mandrake and friends have been managing that for supported hardware for a number of years now. It will do so even for randomly selected laptops. So this notion that a 5 year Linux user has such persistent problems is absurd.

Yeah, right. And I have full-power (like in Windows) 3D hardware acceleration on my Radeon 9600 under Linux. Go figure.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[Anivair]

And here's a thought for the author of this article . . . i think gaim looks just fine. Just as pretty as it should be. if you want kid-like bells, whistles, and big foolish buttons . . . skin it yourself, doofus.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[grimJester]

That was years ago; I get up to five dynamic IPs now so it's no longer an issue. I did get some distro made for zip drives to fit, but I could never get it to recognize more than one of the network cards. Thanks for your advice, regardless.

Most of the answers back then were genuine attempts to be helpful, but after days of frustration as a complete Linux newbie I really didn't want to hear "If you don't like it, why don't you fork it".

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[adamgolding]

they never charged for MSIE. why will MSN messenger be any different?

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[Gizzmonic]

The common defense to your statement should be that you're a lying sack of...

Of course...everyone who has problems with Linux is either stupid or a liar. What a warm and friendly community you've got there! I'm just glad I'm no longer a part of it.

Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here

[PlasticMetal]

Sorry folks, acting is all you have left... Personal communication and instant messaging is far beyond you imagine it is as I understand from your IM field critics... I don't care about critics, it's just about how it should work for people who know what is TCP/IP and how it actually works when you don't know how but know what, when and who.

Young people?

[sulli]

I thought Linux was for old people.

In Korea, anyway.

Re:Young people?

[A beautiful mind]

When soviet russia took over south korea, old people were for LINUX.

Like that beardy fella over there, called RMS.

Re:Young people?

[Anonymous Coward]

I work for Korea.

So I am really getting a kick out of most of your replies.

Sometimes you are very good at making it sound like you know what you are talking about.

But trust me... you don't.

I think you just want to make yourself sound smart, when in reality you don't know what you are talking about.

This is how bad info gets passed around.

If you don't know about the topic... don't make yourself sound like you do.

'Cause apparently you believe anything you hear.

Re:Young people?

[sulli]

I work for Korea.

All of it?

Re:Young people?

[Anonymous Coward]

OMGZ, He's a spoook! Runz rotfllol!

Re:Young people?

[Monkey]

In Korea, only old people work for Korea.

Re:Young people?

[Chyeld]

1. Imagine, in North Korea, beowulf clusters of old people IM you!
2. ?
3. Profit!

Am I missing something?

[dfn_deux]

Gaim and kopete both have all the functionality of the major IM clients. Gaim is available for both windows and linux and also seems to get protocol fixes and other bugs patched much more quickly than the commercial equivalent, trillian...

Re:Am I missing something?

[dfn_deux]

The writer also seems to harp on the lack of nice appearance in the gaim and kopete interfaces... which AFAICT are totally skinnable leaving their appearance to the user, this article seems like nothing more than a PR statement from a MSN cheerleader...

Re:Am I missing something?

[rock217]

From TFA:
There is Gaim, there is Kopete. Are they attractive? No, they aren't. Their interfaces are terrible. Moreover, all you can do with them is write basic IMs. Bye bye overbloated and stupid nudge and Flash sequences. Just the text ma'am. Display picture? Well, it sort of works, but that's all. File transfers? I can swear that you're a lucky guy (girl) when it works. Usually it doesn't, resulting in embarrassing 'Sorry mate, I'm using Linux, you know and, well, could you mail me this picture instead?'.

Personally I have no problem with Gaim's interface, and I enjoy the lack of ads etc. As for extra features I find both Aim and Gaim have issues with firewalls, but wait I thought this was about messaging, not sending files.

I say use the right tool for the job, get an ftp client.

Re:Am I missing something?

[rovingeyes]

I agree with you. And actually, I prefer Gaim over msn messenger because it has one important feature that msn messenger conveniently ignores - encryption. I think it is more valuable and important thatn pretty looks.

Re:Am I missing something?

[Anonymous Coward]

Gaim and kopete both have all the functionality of the major IM clients.

In MSN Messenger on Windows, I can plug a webcam and a microphone into my computer and have a full video conversation with another user somebody with less than 5 minutes' setup.

Re:Am I missing something?

[ThJ]

The writer also seems to harp on the lack of nice appearance in the gaim and kopete interfaces... which AFAICT are totally skinnable leaving their appearance to the user, this article seems like nothing more than a PR statement from a MSN cheerleader...

My 30 year old sister doesn't even know what a skin *is*. She thinks winks are cute. She has a web site with her boyfriend on Freewebs. This is exactly the kind of people that use MSN. What he says about MSN Messenger in Europe is very true. People will look at you funny if you ask them about other IMs. If you can't send a file to someone or receive a wink or a handwritten message because you're using GAIM, you're basically a less fun person to IM for other people.

Re:Am I missing something?

[xutopia]

Gaim does not support video. (I know another app does but youngsters want integration). Gaim does not support games, all emoticons and the interface isn't as nice.

Re:Am I missing something?

[m50d]

How the fuck is this modertated offtopic when it's precisely the topic under discussion?

Re:Am I missing something?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know about you, but if people want to habitually send me winks and handwritten messages, I'm not going to bother to talk to them.

Re:Am I missing something?

[normal_guy]

What the author is saying is that kids these days are used to new Cadillacs when all Gaim and Kopete offer is the same rusty old Hyundai. They'll both get you there, but with what amenities? I've used Gaim and Kopete both when I was on Linux, and they don't come close to MSN for _easy_ file transfers that always work, video and voice, and stylishness of interface. I can admire the sparseness of Kopete, but once you have a full breadth of features in a slick package, going back to anything less feels like roughing it.

Re:Am I missing something?

[NDPTAL85]

Skins are lame. They require effort. The clients need to be pretty by default, as Trillian is even though it too supports skins.

Re:Am I missing something?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, suit yourself. As an artist, I feel that a drawing is a nice way of communicating. As for winks... Well, I just turn those off myself. :P

Re:Am I missing something?

[smidget2k4]

The interface to Gaim is not bad at all compared to the likes of AIM Client, and I prefer the non-flashyness of it actually to that of MSN. But I never use the video/voice features anyway but what I do do that sets Gaim apart from AIM/MSN/Yahoo! is I chat with people on all three networks without blinking an eye. No multiple programs, no fussing with different windows. They all appear in the same chat box without me even having to think about it.

So, I can see why people would use MSN if you used video/voice extensivly, but I really do not think that most people do (I know maybe one person who uses video on occasion). So, different strokes I guess. But I would venture to say that the right tool for the job for most people would be Gaim or Kopete. Ease of use coupled with multiple network support, minus some of the flashier features that the vast majority of people do not use. Also, Gaim is available on Windows (and works VERY well, might I add). And I have had just as many problems with MSN file transfers (at least, before I switched to Gaim) as I do now with Gaim, mostly due to firewall issues.

Re:Am I missing something?

[Anonymous Coward]

Skins are lame. They require effort. The clients need to be pretty by default, as Trillian is even though it too supports skins.

It wasn't always this way. Trillian used to look like crap until the last version. No skin available made it look good. They finally produced a decent enough skin in the last major version. Personally, I think IM clients should not use bitmapped skinnable interfaces. Just use the native widgets.

Re:Am I missing something?

[adolfojp]

No they dont.

MSN messenger allows you to add your own picture avatars, custom smilies and send nudges and winks.

You might not find them usefull, but we are not the ones that need to be converted.

Adolfo

Re:Am I missing something?

[jidar]

Yeah, you're missing something all right. You're missing the truth.

" Gaim and kopete both have all the functionality of the major IM clients. "

That statement is just flat wrong. The gaim of today doesn't even have all of the features of the MSN client of 2 or 3 years ago, let alone the latest version.
RTFA for an explanation.

Re:Am I missing something?

[RFC959]

I was going to ask "WTF is a wink?" but then I found out by googling "MSN messenger wink". God, that's stomach-turning. I'm more thankful than ever I use GAIM and turn off images. If that makes me a "less fun person to IM"...well, shucky darn. Here I thought it was content that might make you want to communicate with someone.

Re:Am I missing something?

[minus_273]

try sending a file using msn in gaim and see how nice it is. Then start up a video conversation or an audio conversation. If you know how to do these last two things, let me know.

Re:Am I missing something?

[ThJ]

Personally I don't give a jack shit about winks or emoticons. I -do- care about audio/video conversations and file transfers. I'm just telling you how normal people like it. MSN is immensely popular because of its feature bloat. I think they could've found a more geek-friendly way of doing it, though.

Re:Am I missing something?

[Anonymous Coward]

are you braindead???

Re:Am I missing something?

[letxa2000]

So, I can see why people would use MSN if you used video/voice extensivly, but I really do not think that most people do (I know maybe one person who uses video on occasion).

I would have thought the same until about a week ago when I was out of town and my wife got a hold of a Webcam. She immediately wanted me to get one so we could "see each other" over MSN. Of course not only did I need a camera, I needed a Windows machine to run MSN. So I got my hands on both and my wife was happy. Now, she uses the camera almost all the time when talking to almost anyone, especially her family.

Video is something that Gaim desperately needs. Nudges and winks are unimportant in the grand scheme of things, but at this point video and audio are basic.

Re:Am I missing something?

[GiMP]

I don't know about with MSN.. but you can use GaimPhone with SIP providers. In particular, you can use GaimPhone with Sipphone.. which is partnering with Google.

Thus... you can not only do audio through Gaim(Phone), you will soon be able to do it with others through GoogleTalk.

Re:Am I missing something?

[Andrewkov]

Nudges, winks, avatars .. who says Microsoft doesn't inovate!

Re:Am I missing something?

[anarmyofnone]

I must be missing it too. I use gaim on both my linux and windows boxes. I don't need or want all the gimmicks and overhead that come along with MSN Messenger, AIM, Google Talk, etc. Last time I checked, the main purpose of an IM client was to communicate with other people, and Gaim does that well.

Re:Am I missing something?

[seven5]

"I say use the right tool for the job, get an ftp client."

umm yeah, when i want to send a quick screen shot or image to someone, i really want to fire up my ftp client. Not to mention hoping my "buddy" has an ftp server running.

Most of the images i send have comedic tones, and after your 10 minute solution, it really isn't funny anymore.

iChat? ummm, drag drop. Done. Screen shot? Command-Shift-4 drag a square, paste in my messenger window. Done.

Its the speed we're after, otherwise i'd just email the damn linux user the file. Oh wait, my email app isn't open either.

TNG

[suso]

about the need for software developers to be mindful of younger people, as their social attitudes towards software are going to be much more influential in than any moral or financial consideration.

Perhaps some of the younger people need to become software developers. This is not meant to be a RTFM comment, just an observation that the OSS community might need to step up its PR with the younger generation. It was nice to see many high school age kids at the BLUG meeting last night, but I think we could do more to encourage them.

Re:TNG

[Eli Gottlieb]

Hi, I'm a 16 year-old Linux From Scratch user and homebrew kernel hacker posting from Firefox who runs GAIM to talk to his best friend in New Jersey who hasn't been able to find a driver for the Wifi card that came with his shiny new laptop.

Therefore, the OSS community would have at least one more convert if they'd make with the drivers. To that note, I never was able to get my Hewlett Packard Deskjet 932C printer configured under Linux.

Re:TNG

[Anonymous Coward]

Some kernel hacker you are, sonny.

You know, dowloading the source for the latest kernel and doing a half-assed job at trying to configure it and compile it hardly qualifies one as a "kernel hacker".

In short, stop trolling.

Btw, if you can't install a friggin printer, that pretty much says it all about your level of expertise.

Re:TNG

[thenefariousone]

Nope.

Word of mouth is not the problem. More software developers just results in more of the same.

There's no solution to the problem there.

You have to appeal to the mass audience, who need their main IM to have cool features like video (that you call bloat) and for it to look appealing.

They don't want their IM to look like Windows in Safe Mode.

Security's important, but it's not sexy to the masses.

Linux Instant Massagers

[Anonymous Coward]

.. or Massaging Messengers.

Please, remove thumb from your mouth Taco, and say that again. Thank you.

Younger people ?

[leonmergen]

Younger people ?

As far as I'm concerned, there are a lot of people out there using instant messengers... my friends, my mom, my dad, people from work, people at college... it's not just teens using instant messengers, it's a huge community using them.

And yes, I personally miss features like displaying which song you're currently listening too, and heck, since the latest MSN version I can't even see their "mood" anymore...

And yer yer, I could just ask them, I know... it's just that my friends seem to have a hell lot of fun using MSN, and I'm just happy I can finally show people my MSN icon... I seem to be missing a lot of the fun :)

Re:Younger people ?

[Anonymous Coward]

I really hate all of these "linux needs to be more X if it wants to compete/succeed" crap. It's all crap!

    Linux isn't competing with anybody. You don't get the source code with commercial software. That by itself puts Linux in an entirely different league.

Most linux users use IRC anyway .... Are you sure you want to compare Linux IRC clients with the craptastic mIRC?

Linux users are doing just fine, and the last thing we need is for Linux to be more like Windows.

Re:Younger people ?

[leonmergen]

Linux users are doing just fine, and the last thing we need is for Linux to be more like Windows.

Excuse me, but that's just plain ignorance. I know of a hell lot of people who really hate windows and would love to switch over to Linux, but it's the little things like these that hold them back. They try to use all kind of thingies over MSN with me, including webcam conversations, but it simply doesn't work for them. Then they're like "oh, yeah, Linux, right?".... and it's things like that that hold them back. Sure, it's not the only thing, but it's the picture as a whole that we draw about the user experience under Linux... sure, it's nice, fonts are prettier (in the opinions of many), but that just doesn't do it...

Re:Younger people ?

[Null537]

As far as I'm concerned, there are a lot of people out there using instant messengers... my friends, my mom, my dad, people from work, people at college... it's not just teens using instant messengers, it's a huge community using them.


This is true, but the demographic is teens, given, you're right, everyone uses it these days, but a lot of those "older folk" were asked to use the service by teens who needed to contact their parents.

While teens are smart with computers, ease of use is a big thing, and if you're trying to get the masses to switch over to another operating system, you want to port the things someone enjoys about their current operating system. If something like GAIM wasn't around I don't think I'd have fully converted to Linux, because of the lack of a a good instant messenger. It's another form of communication, and it's a necessity.

Re:Younger people ?

[m50d]

And yes, I personally miss features like displaying which song you're currently listening too, and heck, since the latest MSN version I can't even see their "mood" anymore...

There are now playing plugins for both gaim and kopete, kopete ships with one, and in kopete at least the "mood" is in the tooltip.

Re:Younger people ?

[MKalus]

Then they're like "oh, yeah, Linux, right?".... and it's things like that that hold them back. Sure, it's not the only thing, but it's the picture as a whole that we draw about the user experience under Linux...

Honestly, I see your point to some degree, but why would Linux have to behave like windows just to make it easier for them to switch?

There even is a learning curve when you move from Windows to the Mac, and although Linux can use some more userfriendlyness (dependency hell for one) it doesn't have to be more like Windows.

If people are complaining about Linux being "different" and they have to learn things again than this is just a lame excuse to NOT switch.

Linux on the desktop for the average Jane or Joe is far from perfect, but it isn't all broken either.

Those who want can switch, I dropped Windows at home back in '99 in 2002 I switched to MacOS X (on the desktop, servers are still on Linux / BSD), now I only have to deal with it at work and I have gotten more used to OS X that I find it rather cumbersome to do some things in Windows.

Re:Younger people ?

[Anonymous Coward]

thats bc when i was 14 IM was just emerging and really cool. I am 24 now btw. YEs i know aboyt ytalk and used it too when i was even younger, but still.....

Re:Younger people ?

[Kwiik]

Anybody notice how this article was posted in January 2005? Eight months old?

It doesn't apply anymore. aMSN, which has a pretty much MSN Messenger-like interface in it's latest CVS build has webcam conversations, audio conversations, a decent plugin platform.

And on top of that they've added in even more stuff MSN doesn't have, which is pretty much a standard for aMSN, beating even MSN Plus perks. Best example I can give you this round is that you can set up aMSN to automatically record all webcam conversations, and view them just like your chat history. That's something I am sure you will never see Microsoft doing.

Re:Younger people ?

[ookaze]

I know of a hell lot of people who really hate windows and would love to switch over to Linux ... They try to use all kind of thingies over MSN

These two things do not make sense : people hating windows and using all kind of thingies over MSN ???
How can you say they would love to switch over to Linux, when you say next that there are a lot of things impeding them on Linux ?
How can you say that when you don't even know how to explain things to people ? Because how come people say "Linux huh ?" when your problem is not even related to Linux ? If Gaim does not support webcam in Windows, it's still a Linux problem ?
Please don't try to sell Linux to people, you do more harm than good. I install Linux for people, but I review their need first, and I explain them what will cause problem, what does not work, in a positive manner, not saying "it's Linux's fault" when I can.
The problem of video and audio is because of proprietary vendors closing their protocols and codecs. Stop saying OSS is at fault, and if you want things to change, bug the proprietary vendors.

Not a very substantial "article"

[AEton]

Summary:
Gosh, I really hate the Windows Messenger 7 UI. It's so ugly. I'm going to say something unsubstantiated about vendor lock-in here and never mention it again, because I want to sound hip to teh Lunix.

Everybody in the entire continent of Europe uses MSN Messenger and most of us just call it -- wait for it -- MSN!

Did you know that Gaim sucks? Look at Firefox and Openoffice.org! Those are much cooler than Gaim. Did you know that ten year olds won't use Gaim because it isn't flashy enough? Lol gaim is so ugly! :( There'll never be Lunix on the desktop!

Kthx.

--Stéphane Rieppi lives in Belgium and is majoring in sociology at the University of Liège. He has a strong passion for Free and Open Source computing and is working on a thesis about Free and Open Source software seen from a sociological viewpoint.

Re:Not a very substantial "article"

[zdzichu]

Everybody in the entire continent of Europe uses MSN Messenger

What planet did you come from? I haven't seen SINGLE PERSON using MSN ever. Everyone is using some local IM (like Gadu Gadu - 5 mln users, or Tlen - about 2 million, in Poland) or use Jabber/XMPP. In Europe.

Anyway, GAIM is mediocre Jabber client. Much better is Gajim, or Psi, used by majority jabber users.

Re:Not a very substantial "article"

[boa13]

MSN Messenger has a huge market share in France: they're an obvious leader, and yes, everybody just calls the service "MSN". I hear this is also the case in other Western-European countries, but don't have first-hand experience. Clearly, Eastern-Europe is a very different market.

Re:Not a very substantial "article"

[tuggy]

correct, i live in portugal and almost everybody uses msn messenger... only the geek community uses other protocols (but they also use 'msn').
in fact, once i had a person i barely knew adding me to their contact list, and i asked how they knew i had msn... the answer was simple, they "just add my email...". everybody just thinks that if you have an email you have msn...

Re:Not a very substantial "article"

[bhalo05]

I live in Spain, and I can tell you only geeks have ever heard of something called Jabber. MSN is so extended even geeks have to use MSN in order to be able to chat with friends.

Most people used to use ICQ here, but then Windows XP came with MSN and changed it all. Almost nobody seem to use ICQ anymore.

Re:Not a very substantial "article"

[chrismcdirty]

Apparently Eastern Europe is not part of continental Europe, by the article's author's logic.

Re:Not a very substantial "article"

[chowells]

Yes, and I've not seen a SINGLE PERSON using Gadu Gadu. Ever. Maybe that's because I'm not Polish, the information portal on gadu-gadu.pl is apparently only available in Polish and according to Wikipedia Gadu Gadu is a polish invention.

It seems that Gadu Gadu might be a good choice for Polish speakers but for the rest of us it's pretty poor.

Re:Not a very substantial "article"

[minus_273]

new europe and old europe.

Re:Not a very substantial "article"

[zdzichu]

But still - saying ,,whole Europe use MSN'' is simply not true.

Re:Not a very substantial "article"

[Tim Browse]

It's the same in the UK, too. That's not just a "I use it and everyone I know uses it too" comment either - I was involved with the UK publicity for a movie, and when it came to promotions involving IM services, they told me MSN was easily #1 in the UK.

Gaim?

[Mysticalfruit]

Apparently they've never heard of gaim. http://gaim.sourceforge.net/ It supports all the major protocols, file transfers, emotes, icons. I've been using it for years and it works great.

What *hip* thing doesn't have?

Re:Gaim?

[cyclop]

Gaim does not support personalized MSN emoticons, has practically no webcam support, no background support for windows...

All pretty useless things, that I don't miss at all, but that most MSN users take for granted.

Re:Gaim?

[pturpin]

No you didn't read the article, they have heard of gaim:

Can you connect to the MSN Messenger network using Free operating systems? Sure you can. There is Gaim, there is Kopete. Are they attractive? No, they aren't. Their interfaces are terrible. Moreover, all you can do with them is write basic IMs. Bye bye overbloated and stupid nudge and Flash sequences. Just the text ma'am. Display picture? Well, it sort of works, but that's all. File transfers? I can swear that you're a lucky guy (girl) when it works. Usually it doesn't, resulting in embarrassing 'Sorry mate, I'm using Linux, you know and, well, could you mail me this picture instead?'.

Re:Gaim?

[scenestar]

Did you even bother to RTFA?

Why do we keep thinking that Gaim's so '1999-2000' tools are good enough?

GAIM is FRIGGIN HORRIBLE.
the user interface is completely unintiutiative and resembles AIM more than MSN.

Re:Gaim?

[Mysticalfruit]

Read the article? You must be new here ;-)

I'm surmising that that bit was copied from the article, and if so, then there's a reason my sarcasm alarm is ringing.
Personally, I really like the utilitarinism of gaim.

Though I'm thinking I might be in the minority since I use gaim to send text messages to others. I don't think I've actually ever used the picture option...

Re:Gaim?

[tarp]

Did you RTFA? He mentions GAIM in it, and even talks about what's wrong with GAIM.

Re:Gaim?

[nagora]

Gaim does not support personalized MSN emoticons,

Score one big one for Gaim! That's more than a "don't need", that's a "don't want".

TWW

Re:Gaim?

[NotWorkSafe]

Moreover, all you can do with them is write basic IMs. Bye bye overbloated and stupid nudge and Flash sequences. Just the text ma'am.

They make it sound like a bad thing. I'm glad to have a trimmed down IM program. I like Gaim better than any of the other IM programs I've used (for any OS). The only thing I wish it had was voice chat support for Google Talk.

Re:Gaim?

[longbot]

File transfer. Secure (128bit encrypted) conversations. Inline image support. Stability (I've seen GAIM crash more in a day then I have seen real AIM crash in three years). Audio chat. Video chat. Need more?

Re:Gaim?

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually gaim does support file transfer for most protocols, MSN and Yahoo messager included (unfortunately not for ICQ, at least yet). It is however true that a modern IM needs stuff like video and voice conference. If YOU don't need it, there are millions of people who do.

Re:Gaim?

[Anonymous Coward]

What's unintuitive? You click on a user's name to start a chat with them. You type in their chat window to chat. And why is it relevant that thier interface is more based on AIM? (look at the name of the program, what do you think their first target was?)

Re:Gaim?

[goaty_the_flying_sho]

My favorite way to send files over the internet is at 80 KBps for a minute and 0.6 KBps for eternity.

Re:Gaim?

[NotoriousQ]

"Gaim does not support personalized MSN emoticons"

Thank god! One thing it also supports is font and color ignore:
<AirheadGrrl>dont you just luv my pretty pink on pink size 42 font
<me>huh? what? oh...yeah I do

And as far as I have seen...webcam and sound conferencing and file transfer has always had trouble due to inability to direct connect. Anyone who thinks NAT is a good idea is an idiot.

And what is the deal about all the official clients that have ASS support for unicode. I talk to a bunch of people in different countries...and thay all use their local charset with no way to tell which one they are using. I hate you ICQ lite!

Re:Gaim?

[NotoriousQ]

Of course by secure you mean that AIM keeps all the keys. That means anyone in AOL can still read your messages.
Gaim actually gives you real point-to-point encryption. Over any protocol.

Re:Gaim?

[dasunt]

Every OS sucks.

Under windows, if you want your IM to always work, with all bells and whistles, you have to go with the vender-supplied IM client. If, ghod forbid, you can't get all of your contacts to use the same IM system, you either have to use some third-party client like Gaim that occasionally breaks, or use multiple clients.

Under linux, if you want your IM to always work, you have to use the official client from the vender, and hopefully your vender makes a client for linux, or at least a java client. If you want to use multiple networks, you are stuck in the same boat as windows.

Wowee, big difference.

Or else you could have everyone use jabber, which works under both platforms, but has somewhat spotty server features.

Re:Gaim?

[longbot]

In that bullet point, I wasn't actually referring to AIM, but to Trillian.

Re:Gaim?

[Mysticalfruit]

Initially GAIM has had some stability issues but they've gone away. I've been using Gaim constantly for the last year without any issues.

Ironically, my wife's given up on Trillian because of stability issues and switched to gaim...

Re:Gaim?

[pestie]

OK, I thought I wasn't going to get into this, but I can't resist.

First, let me say that I'm a mostly-happy GAIM user. I use it primarily on Linux, but I use the Windoze port as well. Most of my friends are on Yahoo Messenger, so let's take some examples from there. Others will be more generic complaints.

1. The official Yahoo client lets me log in invisibly. This is incredibly useful when you want to check your IM's, check the status of others, or hold a one-on-one chat and don't want a bunch of people pestering you all at once. GAIM forces you to log in, then change your status to invisible. That's a dead giveaway to anyone watching that you're actually online, but "hiding." This is a perfect example of developers who write reasonably good code but don't actually put any thought into how people use the application. Trust me, when you have a bunch of people on your contact list, some of whom you want to talk to much more than others, you want to be able to log in invisibly.

2. Every official IM client I've ever used allows me to send an IM with <tab><space>. <tab> shifts the focus from the text entry field to the "Send" button, and presses the Send button. And that's how I'd been doing it for years. This doesn't work in GAIM, though! Oh, heavens no! GAIM, in its infinite wisdom, inserts a tab into my text when I hit the tab key. Have you ever wanted to insert a tab into an IM? Do you know anyone who has? Me either. So where's the harm in making <tab> shift focus like it does in every other application??? None, that's what! But as it stands now I was forced to retrain myself when a few lines of code could have solved this problem. Again, programmers writing code without thinking about how people use the program.

3. No Yahoo video or voice support, even though the code exists for it. I hang out on a message board with a chat room where lots of people there use YM to send video to each other. Some of these people are women who will show me their boobs (for free, even!) You can see why this matters so much to me.

4. Status/"Away" messages: With official IM clients, I can set my "away" status to just about anything I like, quickly and easily. In GAIM, I'm forced to create a a new custom away message through a long series of menu clicks. Then if I want to use it, it forces me to keep a stupid dialog box on the screen, or minimized to the task bar, with a stupid "I'm back!" button. This might work if "Away" messages were exclusively used for telling people that you're not at your keyboard, but nobody actually uses it that way! Hell, when I lived with my ex-girlfriend and her teenage kids, they'd use their status messages to tell their friends every time they did anything, or just to put up stupid messages to amuse people. I used to do the same sort of stuff when I had the official Yahoo client. But most of all, sometimes you just want to appear to be away when you're really not (a variation on the logging-on-invisible theme above). I don't want a stupid dialog box hanging around just because I changed my status to something other than "I'm here!" Once again, programmers write good code, but they don't put any thought into how people actually use the software. Are you starting to see a theme here?

5. While we're on the topic of status/away messages, why doesn't GAIM reflect my away status visually? The system tray icon should change, at minimum, as should the icons in my buddy list for the various IM networks (YM, ICQ, etc.) depending on my status in those individual networks. I realize that the question of which status to display in the system tray comes up when you set a different status for different IM networks, but how the hell often does anyone do that? I'm going to guess that most people want their status to be consistent across the board 99.8% of the time, so whatever hack you implement to deal with the 0.2% will just have to do.

I could go on, but those are my major complaints.

Re:Gaim?

[longbot]

I've noticed that the stability issues might be in the library code, because the popular multi-service IM apps on OS X (Fire, Proteus, and Adium) all use them, and all are rather buggy.

Re:Gaim?

[AndreiK]

1-3 are valid points, but both 4 and 5 are implemented. I get a new status icon when I'm away, and it's easy to make an away message. Away->Custom, then just type it in and hit use.

Re:Gaim?

[PReDiToR]

Gaim does not support personalized MSN emoticons,

>> Score one big one for Gaim! That's more than a "don't need", that's a "don't want"

Yeah, I wholeheartedly concur.

Emoticons are the first things to get turned off on any IM client I use. If you can't be bothered to type a "=)" just don't bother with text at all, phone me.

Re:Gaim?

[Mysticalfruit]

The main reason for that is (unless I'm mistaken, which I might be) that AOL hasn't released specs about their IM protocol.

Thus all of these libraries that are just educated guesses...

Re:Gaim?

[longbot]

The folks behind Trillian seem to do a pretty bang-up job of reverse-engineeering those specs.

Maybe it's just me, but I expect more from OSS than just adequacy. There's such great potnetial, and so seldom is anything done with it except losing interest in the project a year or so after it begins.

It looks like Trillian is one of those cases where the closed-source app is the superior to the open-source alternitive. Sometimes, it happens.

Form over function?

[kingsqueak]

No thanks. I'll take the simplicity of gaim to accomplish the given task; relaying a text 'conversation'.

If you go and bloat it up, for the love of God, be sure to leave an options dialog to disable all the crud so I don't have to be beaten with it.

Re:Form over function?

[cyclop]

I agree with you about all. When my MSN buddies tell me "oh, bad luck you cant' see my new animated emoticon" I always reply "No, it's good luck I can't see all the billion kitschy animated things that my roommate is always flooded by on his MSN Messenger"

I also love the clean interface of Gaim. Many friends of mine seeing my desktop or receiving my screenshots told me "oh, what is that cool messenger program with tabs?" when looking at Gaim. Not all, but a lot, love the cleanness of the Gaim interface. And, oh, file transfer just works on my stable Gentoo.

There are two things I miss from MSN that I would love. First is webcam support. Second is games, it would be nice to have platform-independent GAIM games (via XUL? via AJAX?), if supporting the MSN ones is impossible.

I remember an old /. story in which a hypothetical Gaim plugin giving the ability to buddies to browse directories and share files. This would probably be a really f****g cool thing for Gaim, and it could shuffle the deck of IM clients. Has anyone news about something like this?

Re:Form over function?

[Spicerun]

"First is webcam support."

It's coming. I guess nobody knows how to browse Freshmeat.net and see gaim-vv, a webcam, voice plugin system for gaim.

Re:Form over function?

[Eli Gottlieb]

Thank you, Dr. Tanenbaum.

Re:Form over function?

[Anonymous Coward]

You will, but the majority of the enduser "omg look at the shineeeeys" won't be content with plain, that's something that needs to be addressed if we're ever going to get these kids away from MS (or stupid flashy piece of junk toys, but that's another matter).

Re:Form over function?

[normal_guy]

Your given task is to relay a text conversation, others given task is to relay a video conversation while playing a shared game, and all in a slick interface. Why use Firefox when Lynx works just as well at it's given task, navigating hyperlinks on the internet?

Re:Form over function?

[akad0nric0]

No thanks. I'll take the simplicity of gaim to accomplish the given task; relaying a text 'conversation'.

I happen to agree. The problem is, this is a very engineering approach to a social problem; such approaches are often rejected by society because that's not how most people think.

The problem with acceptance and continued use of Linux outside of the realm of highly-technical users is one of approach, and this article makes a good point of a symptom of that problem.

I recently watched two of my friends in their mid-twenties spend 8 straight man-hours on myspace.com. These types of electronic social networking uses are exactly where recreational computer use is going right now, and for the Linux community to keep or increase its market share amongst younger tech-savvy users, it needs to acknowlege this trend.

IMO, of course :-)

Re:Form over function?

[cyclop]

I'm fully aware of gaim-vv, but on their webpage they declare: Yahoo receive only. NOT YET BROADCAST CAPABLE! Broadcast is slated for an upcoming release.

Yahoo receive only is not what I call full webcam support for a multiprotocol chat program. OTOH, it seems the aMSN CVS version has MSN webcam support. Things are coming,yes,but are still very immature.

Re:Form over function?

[roju]

There was a lot of hype about that project when it got going, but for a while now it's just claimed "we're rolling into gaim mainline" with no indication of progress. Not to mention all the news entries about "MSN not working" and all that.

Re:Form over function?

[sweetnjguy29]

I use gaim-vv on my ubuntu linux box. It works well.

However, it was a pain to compile and install.

Furthermore, while I can watch a webcam, after about 5 minutes, my entire linux system comes to an entire halt.

Can't get out of it even using cntrl-alt-backspace or by trying to kill the process. Have to kill the power...which sucks.

Webcam support on Linux must be improved and it must be a priority!

hey, what spin!

[ChozCunningham]

Would one say the same of OSS IM software in general? Antiquated and "un-hip" holds true on the windows side of things too!

An no, I'm not just talking about how pretty Trillian is compared to GAIM, either. Socialbility as a value has a lot to do with smart UI design fetures, too. Smart preferences, drag and drop, ease of use, and integration of features with other web activity would all help IM's that want to "make it". And yes, GAIM needs a new name. Or spelling.

OmnIM

[Doc Ruby]

What about a Linux server that can connect to the most IM networks? The new MSN/Yahoo one should make that easier, but what about the Google Jabber net - is that open? Can one server do those, and AIM, too?

Re:OmnIM

[Anonymous Coward]

Google is on Jabber, which is open by nature - Check out talk.google.com for details of how to connect almost any IM Client.

Re:OmnIM

[WindBourne]

Disregard the issue of the server. At this moment, OSS is either equal or greater than any closed solution.

The real problem is one of IM client design. gaim and kopete are somewhat solid, but have a stolid interface. Worse, both were designed wrong. They each have a tight coupling of the protocols to the apps. KDE was designed to decouple the IO protocol from the app (via kio). The perfect design was to create KIOs with each of the IM protocols. Above that, then create various IM apps.

In fact, had they done that, then it would be trivial to send files from one side to another. In addition, we would have several apps that did far better things than the closed IMs. As it is, we now have several brittle apps with limited interfaces.

Re:OmnIM

[Doc Ruby]

I'm not talking about the quality of the code. I'm talking about whether I can offer people with a single IM client access through my server to the other networks. It doesn't matter how good the server SW is, if people can't use it to talk with people on, say, AIM or MSNM.

Re:OmnIM

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't pay any attention to this loser.

He's a troll who lies on web boards in order to try to argue from authority.

The problem is he's also stupid, and not very good at lying, and I caught him.

He still hasn't owned up, despite being caught red handed, which displays just how stupid he is.

Re:OmnIM

[WindBourne]

Sure, jabber offers a server that provides access to all the various IMs. And of course, that is available on Windows as well. Likewise, there are various clients that offer access to the different IM servers. But I know that you know that.

The real problem is that none of these clients offer access to the unique features of the Windows IMs. For example, Windows Yahoo IM has some neat stuff, but it is not available on any of the Linux clients including the one from Yahoo.

Instead, if Linux had clients that offered unique things across any protocol, now, that would be useful. That is what Kopete and Gaim are trying to offer, but they made it far too brittle. They are spending a lot of time fixing the protocols (as are the other clients) rather than focusing on enhancing the clients. A good example is kmsn (IIRC the msn IM client) and kopete. Any changes in the protocols or any bugs means changes in both. Which means WAY slow time.

Re:OmnIM

[Doc Ruby]

Well, the nice thing about open source IM clients is that anyone can add these features (hint, hint) while the core team is too busy, working on the protocol compatibility. Personally, I'm not interested in rolling out a new IM client to the huge installed base already using one or another (usually AIM/Yahoo/MSN). I'm interested in offering services to that installed base, and connecting my own users to them. So, for me, the action is at the server. Because using my server requires only pointing any client at my URL, rather than giving up the old client, and the skills that go with it - and therefore the users that go with it.

Working against the tide

[gilesjuk]

Can't you blame them? they're working against the tide of closed source proprietary development at Microsoft and other companies that like to keep their protocols secret.

Only when protocols are open will we see true interoperability.

Everything he rails against...

[Godeke]

...is why we use GAIM to communicate in our company. (Well, except the garbage file transfers.) We have a Jabber server that supports encryption and use that for all of our in-house messaging. This is important as we are a geographically distributed team, we need a secure, reliable chat mechanism to collaborate quickly and easily on code. We don't want or need all the garbage that comes with of IMs, and the fact we can link to other services in GAIM makes it our one stop shopping solution for IMs when we *do* need to talk to someone with a more mainsteam IM.

Of course, we are professional developers who don't need to send flash animations, pictures or even more than the basic :) :( smiles. But for a corporate solution, GAIM + Jabber makes a lot of sense and I would hate to see it become the playground that MSN has become.

Re:Everything he rails against...

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey,

Your company should try Office Communicator or some other business im client. Msn messenger and the like are meant for consumer use and not business use. Don't be angry that these clients don't target your specific needs.

Re:Everything he rails against...

[Godeke]

I'm not angry... and why would I use some "business IM client" when I'm already doing so? GAIM + Jabber with SSL is a great business client.

Re:Everything he rails against...

[Anonymous Coward]

Because you're depriving Microsoft of CAL income by not licensing Microsoft Live Communication Server. What other reason could you have for not providing Microsoft with more money!

Re:Everything he rails against...

[halr9000]

I'm not a big fan of GAIM (nor GTK in general), so I would modify the parent's position to just this:

"For a corporate solution, Jabber makes a lot of sense."

Re:Everything he rails against...

[RustyTaco]

Except that gaim had miserable Jabber support last I looked a few months back, about as bare and iChat's. Check out Pandion for Windows, or Gajim for Linux/Windows/OSX and you'll probably be happier if you're in a pure-jabber environment. Jive Messanger makes a nice internal Jabber server without the explitatives usually required for jabberd 1.4. - rustytaco

What about voice ?

[vlad_petric]

And file transfers with non-gaim clients ?

Re:What about voice ?

[ilikejam]

File transfers work fine. Up and down. At least they do with MSN Messenger as the remote client.

Re:What about voice ?

[jrumney]

yahoo works for file transfers to/from Gaim too. The only people I've tried file transfers with who complained that they didn't get anything turned out to be using Trillian.

Re:What about voice ?

[dfn_deux]

file xfers to/from gaim trillian work fine for me...

Re:What about voice ?

[cab15625]

File transferes to MSN and Yahoo! used to be painfully slow ... to the point where people would cancel on the other end because they lost patience. This seems to have improved a LOT in the recent versions, so if you still don't get good file transfer ... upgrade.

The two biggest things I've noticed lacking are Nudges and voice/webcam stuff.

Nudges and can more than happily live without.

Voice/webcam support was attemted with an offshoot called gaim-vv (vv == voice and video). But that project has officially been laid to rest with a final note implying that some of the developers will try to merge the work into a later release of gaim.

There are also a lot of pluggins for gaim to support everything from rss to encryption. If you really desperately want a feature, leave a not on the "feature requests" thread of the sourceforge project page on sourceforge. Or if you're desperate and skilled, try to write it up yourself ... this is open source.

Re:What about voice ?

[halfelven]

No, they don't. Not even gaim-to-gaim (at least over Yahoo, at least with one client on Linux and the other on Windows). That's pretty annoying.

Re:What about voice ?

[gujo-odori]

I think "officially laid to rest" is stronger than the actual situation. The Oct. 7 announcement states that there will be no more gaim-vv releases but that they are working on merging with gaim and code will (not might, but will) be added to gaim.

IMO, that's how it should have been done from the outset.

Veering back toward the the response of so many posters, both here and in the comments for TFA, gaim is pretty good at the basics (better than either AOL's or Yahoo's official clients) and IMO isn't ugly, either. Kopete looks nicer/more Mac-like, but some of its functionality is goofy. I love KDE but use gaim for my IM b/c I just can't stand Kopete.

The trouble is, the basics aren't enough. The main point of TFA, really, is "Where's the voice and webcam support?" This is a major stumbling block in open-source IM, and it doesn't affect just young people. I'm in my early forties and Linux has been my exclusive desktop OS for over five years. My wife is in her thirties and would also be a Linux user except for one thing: Yahoo Messenger, and specifically the voice/video features, is her number one app (ahead of even email) for keeping in touch with her family and friends overseas. Any platform that doesn't support that doesn't work for her, and that's why we have a Win2K box (Yahoo Messenger on Mac doesn't support voice, either, or I'd buy her a Mac).

It's all about the applications for a lot of people, and IM is the only area that immediately comes to mind where there is really a huge gap between capabilities of open-source clients versus proprietary ones. People can point to gaim-vv or to gyach-e (Eeeeeeuuuuuuw! Have you ever looked at the source code for that?! I feel the nausea coming on again just from thinking about it. I and one of my staff members tried for three days to get it to build, without success; eventually I ran a binary RPM through alien), but both of those projects are really in their infancy WRT both functionality and reliability. I've tried both and eventually concluded that I was better off just living without those features until they are more stable (they have cute little tricks like making a 2.5 GHz P4 with a gig or RAM go to 100% CPU utilization and stay there when receiving video. This happened multiple times and my only out was to kill X; charming).

Need a good office suite? OSS has you covered. Browser? Take your pick. The only proprietary browser that's as good as the OSS offerings is Opera, and it also runs on Linux. Email? Same situation? Groupware? Maybe a little rough around the edges, but we're basically there. Security tools? The list is long but distinguished. SQL databases? PostgresQL and MySQL are two of the most popular in the world, take your pick. Development tools? There are probably more OSS tools than proprietary ones available these days, and whether you prefer vi, (X)emacs, or a full-blown IDE, OSS has something for you. This list could go on and on, but I think you all get the point.

However, turn to IM, and OSS is years behind the times. The author of TFA had it right. I know none of us really like hearing that there's something OSS doesn't do as well as proprietary software, and we especially don't like hearing that proprietary is kicking our asses in some area, but sometimes it's true. This is one of those times.

Having a world-class IM, with voice, video, etc., is crucial for OSS at this juncture. I hope people who are working on major OSS IM clients like gaim or Kopete are reading this thread and also read TFA and realize how important this is.

And yes, I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is. If what is needed is to pay gaim developers to get this done in a reasonable time frame, I will donate 50 bucks, which is more than I've spent on software in years. I hope everyone else who wants advanced voice and video features in OSS IM will also be willing to pony up whatever they can afford to get the job done.

Re:What about voice ?

[CryptoKiller]

http://gaim-vv.sourceforge.net/

And file transfers with non-gaim clients ?

Works for me with MSN & ICQ, haven't tried any other protocols though. MSN file transfer is painfully slow though.

YMMV.

Re:What about voice ?

[Anonymous Coward]

I've never tried an MSN file transfer but AIM file transfer don't work for me... I allways have to use Yahoo or just email the files. Really, the only reasons I use Gaim are: It's free, It's open source, tabbed windows and encryption. I'd be fine if file transfer worked all the time.

Re:What about voice ?

[ookaze]

The main point of TFA, really, is "Where's the voice and webcam support?"

Fortunately they don't ask such questions, especially since they would appear uninformed.
With all the talks about patents and knowing the willingness of MS or Yahoo to cooperate with OS projects, one does not need to think very long to understand why the situation is such. Voice and webcam support of course is not a problem, the codecs are.

This is a major stumbling block in open-source IM, and it doesn't affect just young people.

This is not. See ? I can affirm things too. Perhaps a minor stumbling block, surely not a major one. It affects mostly young people, because there are not so much people able to :
- buy a webcam
- buy a microphone
- plug them where they should (especially the microphone)
- configure all of this in the IM client (some people will tell me it it's very simple in Windows, some people I know still struggle with their webcam 3 years after starting using this)
- willing to let their face seen to everyone

I'm in my early forties and Linux has been my exclusive desktop OS for over five years

I'm in my early thirties, and Linux has been my exclusive desktop OS for nearly 5 years (will be in 01/2006).

My wife is in her thirties and would also be a Linux user except for one thing: Yahoo Messenger, and specifically the voice/video features, is her number one app (ahead of even email) for keeping in touch with her family and friends overseas

My wife is also in its early thirties, and she has absolutely no problem keeping in touch with her family, text is good enough for her. I said to her that soon, she should be able to send video through the webcam. None of the people she talks to have webcam or audio, so she doesn't even see the interest.
I understand your problem, just don't say everyone wants this. It's a plus (I think) when it works well. That means lots of bandwidth and low latency to work well.

It's all about the applications for a lot of people, and IM is the only area that immediately comes to mind where there is really a huge gap between capabilities of open-source clients versus proprietary ones

The gap is mostly in favor of OSS software though. Video and audio need high bandwidth and low latency, few people have this where I live, it's only starting to emerge now. I could not do these reliably 2 weeks ago, and the only people I know that do video (but not voice) struggle with it since 3 years. Chatting with text would give them better results (it would be instant, not losing 10s of minutes each time they want to talk).

However, turn to IM, and OSS is years behind the times. The author of TFA had it right. I know none of us really like hearing that there's something OSS doesn't do as well as proprietary software, and we especially don't like hearing that proprietary is kicking our asses in some area, but sometimes it's true. This is one of those times.

Nonsense. You still did not say why OSS is years behind. You could not, because you'd have to realise that when OSS does not do something, it's because it's blocked or impaired intentionally by proprietary software vendors. OSS is limited by patents threats on all these audio and video codecs needed to talk with other IM clients. High bandwidth will allow us to use less efficient, but not patented video and audio codecs to talk with others.
If it hasn't been done before, that's mostly to avoid litigations. Even plugins in IM where partly invented to allow a program to withdraw a protocol or codec without destroying the entire program (the same with gstreamer, necessary for these kind of apps).

Having a world-class IM, with voice, video, etc., is crucial for OSS at this juncture. I hope people who are working on major OSS IM clients like gaim or Kopete are reading this thread and also read TFA and realize how important this is.

You talk like most OSS newbies, I have a hard time to believe you use Linux since 5 year

Re:What about voice ?

[i_am_not_a_bomba]

I've never had a problem.

Re:What about voice ?

[ivan kk]

Yes, I use it for msn (sparingly)

Re:What about voice ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hear hear,

I have wondered if the problem is "not starting again". Everyone wants an IM to talk to AOL, or MSN, or whatever, because all their friends are there.

But this is precisely the way the Internet (and a lot of free software) got started, replacing a mix of proprietary networking protocols that were incompatible. No one worries that IP doesn't integrate nicely with Banyan Vines this, or Novell SSP that any more.

Produce a good free software IM tool, ignore the rest, make it free software and cross platform, and give it to some people you want to talk to, networking will do the rest.

I think GAIM wasted a lot of effort trying to play catch-up with a lot of people and protocols who don't want to play nicely, if at all, because they still believe they can get 100% (or nearly) of the market.

Jabber took a better approach, but still tried to do interoperability.

Build it and they will come.

Re:What about voice ?

[aztracker1]

I actually use, and like windows, I'm not a big fan of MS though... My favorite IM is trillian, though it isn't OSS, I would never look at the source if it was, I've been a paying user of the "pro" version for some time, because I like the software and want to support it... I feel it is often vital for people to donate to the products they like, especially in F/OSS... it isn't so much the money, but as a developer I can see that someone would appreciate the feedback, compliment, and request when combined with cash...

I can see 50 people donating even $20 to Kopete, or Gaim, and saying they want feature X, carrying a lot more weight, than anonymous user saying they want feature Y.

Doesn't have to be the big things either.. even the little utilities you find invaluable... Personally, I run a hobby bbs, I program professionally, and have given out a little of what I write... a few times a user has donated to register a door, or whatever... this is an example of what keeps me going.. users that appreciate the effort, and want to help out.

OSnews strikes again.

[labratuk]

I thought "Funny. I haven't seen much inflammatory bullshit recently. I wonder if OSnews have got back into gear again."

Then I noticed the link. Brilliant.

Re:OSnews strikes again.

[jbrocklin]

Did you notice the line right below the OSnews title:
Written by special contributor Stéphane Rieppi on 2005-01-15 04:36:21 UTC

I'm used to /. being behind OSNews by a few hours, or days....but this article is from January!

Wait a second

[Misanthrope]

I'm a twenty-something college student and not a single one of the people I know uses MSN. Coupled with the
fact that AIM still holds market dominance this guy seems off the deep end. GAIM can do nearly anything that
the major IM clients can sans some of the more bizarre video chat.

Re:Wait a second

[Daveznet]

You are a college student in the United States I bet. I have found that in the United States that the majority of users use AIM, why this is I dont know but here in Canada and in Europe the majority of people use MSN.

Re:Wait a second

[syrinx]

I'm a twenty-something college student and not a single one of the people I know uses MSN. Coupled with the
fact that AIM still holds market dominance this guy seems off the deep end.

I've been out of college a couple years, but I never knew anyone who used only MSN... and only one person who used it at all (in addition to AIM).

A couple people here at work use it, but most use AIM too.

If someone told me they only had MSN, I'd say "Oh. Well, what's your email then?"

And I've *never* seen anyone use the Yahoo messenger.

Re:Wait a second

[CynicalGuy]

I'm a twenty-something college student and not a single one of the people I know uses MSN.

You must not know anyone from Europe or Asia. Even though most in the US perfer AIM, most of the non-US world uses MSN.

Re:Wait a second

[Anonymous Coward]

I know exactly one person who uses MSN. He's the only person who can't receive offline messages.

Re:Wait a second

[madman101]

You need to get out of your dorm room and meet some people....

Re:Wait a second

[olekrst]

I live in Norway, and i know only one who use ICQ, and the rest of my friends use MSN. I've never met anyone who uses anything else

Standardized

[geoffeg]

Gaim is just trying to follow the look of the rest of the linux desktop experience.. antiquated and generally pretty ugly!

At least gaim isn't as fugly and bloaty looking as the default trillian install. The best, cleanest, most feature-capable IM client I've used is Adium for OS X (which I believe uses gaim's IM library). It gets out of my way, isn't all flashy and has all the things I want (on the fly spell checking, history in new windows, etc).

(No, this isn't one of those "DUDE! JUST USE OS X! LINUX SUX0RS", I'm just stating my opinion.)

Re:Standardized

[tomstdenis]

gaim follows the OSS traditional of functional beyond looks. Though with the recent random disconnects I question that.

In general though most "linux tools" [which are usually GNU or OSS tools] are written by users not commercial vendors. They write something as pretty as they need it.

Users expect flashy bullshit because they've been told that that's innovative and "Advanced" and anything else is inferior. This is just like modern gaming. Some games which look really cool *cough* *cough* doom3 *cough* *cough* turn out to be really crappy whereas games like ... solitaire have staying power.

Imagine that.

Tom

Re:Standardized

[tehshen]

Gaim is just trying to follow the look of the rest of the linux desktop experience.. antiquated and generally pretty ugly!

Of course it's trying to look like the rest of the linux desktop, it uses the same widget set! Sure, you can use one of the High Contrast themes or Simple or somesuch, and Gaim is going to look ugly that way because that's what you've chosen it to look like.

Completely different widget sets (MSN Messenger, WMP, Office, usual win32) on the screen at the same time? That is ugly.

Re:Standardized

[stephend]

I use Adium for exactly the reasons you suggest, however it's not perfect and the article does mention some of its greatest short-comings: multimedia. It's wonderful for text-only IM but as soon as you want audio or video you have to fire up iChat. A real pain. Not that iChat is bad, it's just that one of the reasons I like Adium is to avoid having to open multiple IM clients!

Re:Standardized

[m50d]

It gets out of my way, isn't all flashy and has all the things I want (on the fly spell checking, history in new windows, etc).

Those are both features that are certainly in kopete and I'd be amazed if they weren't in gaim as well. If you like the adium chat window look you can tell kopete to look like that, the contact list always looks the same but that's so it fits into the desktop, better than one of these skinnable programs that does't fit in with anything else. (IMO of course)

Re:Standardized

[jmt(tm)]

...has all the things I want (on the fly spell checking, history in new windows, etc)

I'd be interested in your "etc." since my Gaim gets out of my way, isn't flashy, does on the fly spell checking and can show me the conversation history... I have used Adium myself, but I fail to see why it would be superior to Gaim.

Re:Standardized

[Jarlsberg]

Well, I would agree that functional is better than pretty, though I do think the latest incarnation of Fedora and Gnome doesn't look too bad at all. And Doom 3 vs. Solitaire? Pshaw. Doom 3 is a great game, especially when coupled with the expansion pack Ressurection of evil.

Re:Standardized

[Fujisawa Sensei]

Gaim is just trying to follow the look of the rest of the linux desktop experience.. antiquated and generally pretty ugly!

Which desktop are you talking about? And why? Because KDE only vaguely feels nothing like Suckfish/Gnome/Metash*ty which looks and feels nothing like enlightenment, which is nothing like Blackbox. (I'll admit, IceWM sucks, its kinda like going back in time and using Motif, but without the features.

command line nut

[wakejagr]

yes, I'm a command line nut, but my favorite is actualy bitlbee, available at http://www.bitlbee.org/. It's an irc gateway for AOL, ICQ, jabber etc.

Re:command line nut

[wakejagr]

yes, responding to my own post bad and all. My command line reference makes no sense, unless I mention that my IRC client of choice is irssi. There, don't we all feel better now?

Re:command line nut

[Anonymous Coward]

I was turned onto bitlbee because it allowed me to ssh into my linux box at home and access yahoo messenger in a text based format that 1. almost looks like i'm working and 2. by passes the software monitoring IM's.

Re:command line nut

[m50d]

I prefer centericq, a direct client with support for loads of protocols, plus things like livejournal and rss feeds.

Re:command line nut

[wakejagr]

Yeah, I checked out CenterICQ as I was looking for a good ncurses IM client. When AOL took down their TOC servers, and naim quit working, I tried a bunch. I used Pork (http://dev.ojnk.net/) for a bit, but I kept thinking "it needs to be a little more like what I'm used to" and "it isn't quite customizable enough". Both are solved by using bitlbee through irssi. I use irssi for IRC already,and its perl script additions are great. I love to load follow.pl while I'm doing something else or away from the computer.

Not a problem with gaim there

[Andy Dodd]

Sounds like whoever packages gaim for your distro is a moron. gaim's developers can't be faulted because someone else is screwing up the packaging.

I've never had any problem with upgrades or installations of gaim on any of my systems (Gentoo, and I used to use RedHat until 7.3), including the Windows port.

gaim blows away AOL's standard AIM client in terms of UI cleanliness, ease of use, and features. How the hell is it that the AIM protocol supports aliases for screen names (i.e. foobar43289342 displays as "John Smith") but only third-party clients actually support it? (i.e. aliases ARE saved on AOL's server with your buddy lists, but AOL's AIM client is about the only client out there that DOESN'T show them).

gaim also lets me strip out all color/fontsize changes from people's IMs. Some people have REALLY annoying color defaults.

gaim starts far faster than AIM.

There is one thing (and only one) that AIM handles better than gAIM, and that's when people use nonstandard character sets in away messages. gAIM bitches about a buggy client, AIM will display the away message, even though some characters will look like junk. I only see these away messages once or twice a month though.

Re:Not a problem with gaim there

[krewemaynard]

There is one thing (and only one) that AIM handles better than gAIM, and that's when people use nonstandard character sets in away messages.

Actually, I can name another...I can't do file transfers in Gaim. Ever. Is it just me? Is there something I'm missing? I'm one of the folks from TFA asking people to send stuff through email since I refuse to use the official IM client.

Re:Not a problem with gaim there

[NotoriousQ]

that's when people use nonstandard character sets in away messages
Wha? Heh. I have had the opposite problem. Usually everyone elses message gets converted to complete nonsense...but that is because they are not using unicode for some reason (probably because the official client consists of ASS). Gaim uses utf-8 to send out messages always. The funny part is when I have had my away message say things in 4 different languages, a certain version of official clients immediately crashed. That actually got a few people to switch...thank $DEITY.

Re:Not a problem with gaim there

[NotoriousQ]

Are you or your destination behind a NAT. Direct connect over aim fails to work with NAT, even on official clientsas of 2 years ago. Perhaps they have some kind of proxy for these nowdays. Please tell me that official clients are not using UPNP to set up a tunnel through NAT....that would be scary.

Re:Not a problem with gaim there

[MegaFur]

I like the "thank $DEITY" part, but on my system $DEITY = '\0' so it doesn't evaluate very well. Maybe some exception handling code should be thrown in.

Linux has everything needed

[Anonymous Coward]

Err.. and exactly what instant messaging protocols does linux lack? Gaim supports pretty much everything in _one_single_program_, and there are dozens other apps too. And it's easier to use MSN Messenger on windows? Yeah, right..

Re:Linux has everything needed

[Anonymous Coward]

I might also add that both my sisters are using Gaim - on windows. They have even converted other people to use it too, and some of their friends have been interested in it even though they haven't marketed it for them. And we are talking about "normal" computer users here.

Havent read TFA...

[xtracto]

... this really comes to make stronger my previous post on Novell's linux usuability tests.

This about the point 3 (How can some computer-noob user Engage in a multimedia chat with some friend (micrphone+webcam+text). There is really no application in the open source windows that has all the functionality that MSN Messenger has this is, to be able to talk, chat and see video when having a conference with other people.

Some of the answers I got from my previous post stated a set of programs that you could use to get a (more or less useful) similar result. But, the end user will not want that. For them, MSN messenger allows them to do all that with some clicks, while on Linux it would require some RPMing and running 3 applications.

The other more important thing (and I know... it is not the OSS fault) is the compatibility. See, ALL my contacts use MSN Messenger (all in Mexico), none of them use AOL or ICQ or whatever OSS, so I have to use a MSN compatible client.

Now, everything could be nice with GAIM, except that it does not support video and audio, and I while I am in UK I love staying in contact with people over there, and why not spending a sunday night chating with friends and having a video conference with my girlfriend (yes, I have a girlfriend, no, not *those* kind of video conference ;) ).

But, all in all, someone posted on the Y!MSN merging that there are like 3 propietary messenger programs, I dont know if AOL msnger supports audio and video or the others, but I do know it is something that my vanilla Linux distro is lacking of. [now go ahead and blame Microsoft for not releasing a version of MSN Messenger for Linux... (I already do it!!!)]

Re:Havent read TFA...

[Anonymous Coward]

Dang dude, you get to travel a lot. I want your job.

Re:Havent read TFA...

[xtracto]

haha... believe me you dont I am just a PhD student with a scholarship =o)

Gaim, but IMs suck

[Anonymous Coward]

I gave up IMs for now. Used to really like Trillian for its multi protocol ability,
but eventualy I switched to Gaim, then I quit instant chat altogether except for IRC.
Problem is Yahoo, AIM etc all have a vested interest in making their stuff incompatible with everyone elses
protocol, so even if _you_ have gaim or can translate proto to proto most of your friends cannot and live in
separate disconnected islands. It gets hard keeping track of who is on what system and whether I can talk to them today or not because Yahoo have blocked/changed the protocol etc. Very annoying. It's also ridiculous that it's not possibe to send and recieve SMS messages to mobiles without paying extortionate fees. I'm waiting for a universally integrated and free protocol to rule them all. Right now instant messages are somewhat below standards I expect. A fragmented mish mash of providwers is kinda like before the internet had DNS, but I'm sure it will all eventually integrate.

how old is that article???

[p80]

from TFA: "Written by special contributor Stéphane Rieppi on 2005-01-15 04:36:21 UTC" then: " Its new beta (version 7) makes things even worse" I'm not an MSN user but I'm pretty damn sure that version7 is the stable one, right?

GAIM doesn't work!

[illuminatedwax]

RTFA and also realize that while it may work for you, most of the time Gaim cannot support file transfers for most users! I am putting this here because there are too many people saying that this works for me to respond to!!

Re:GAIM doesn't work!

[Anonymous Coward]

magical in the sense that thanks to uPNP,file transfer actually work.

and a lot of worms as well.

Re:GAIM doesn't work!

[Namronorman]

Sure, GAIM has came a long way... But what you said is one of the major reasons. There are a lot of features that are lacking that people are used to and they don't want to leave behind.

I really enjoy MSN messenger, they have a good voice chat system and I really like their fish theme you can use. I am not a fan of AIM, but I like it for their great file transfers and direct connection, it's simpler than just setting up an FTP server etc.

All of those services, without proper firewall configuration and port forwarding if those apply to you, along with the person on the other end are most likely not usable using the Linux clients. The newer AIM, MSN, and Yahoo! clients have their own proxy servers for getting around firewall/LAN blockage.

Re:GAIM doesn't work!

[Harik]

GAIM filetransfers have improved quite a bit, but if you're running your own linux-based nat, you can help it along quite a bit by running the reaim transparent proxy.

Also, looks like HEAD has support for uPNP for multiple protocols, so it should help.

AIM filetransfers work either direction, as long as you can get a direct connection estabilshed. The problem lies when both ends are behind NAT, things tend to break down. reaim or uPnP makes your end viable, so even if the remote end has a broken firewall you can have them connect to you and Voila, it all Just Works(tm)

My complaint is the lack of VoIP support, but it looks like that's nearly finished.

Re:GAIM doesn't work!

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm behind a NAT and I get around the port problems by setting GAIM to use a subset of the ports I use for BitTorrent. I simply forward a group of ports, and it works perfectly. File Transfers work fine.

Also pretty much everyone I talk to (mostly non-techie) use Gaim.

Re:GAIM doesn't work!

[illuminatedwax]

Also pretty much everyone I talk to (mostly non-techie) use Gaim.

That's the problem. Pretty much everyone I talk to doesn't have Gaim.

Bird Talk.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Simply put - People are communal. Don't make a person who wants to use Linux have to leave behind a method or style of communication."

Carrier Pigeon available for Windows?

Bah!

[Anonymous Coward]

Who needs a fancy-schmancy "Instant Messenger"? Back in my day, we had 'talk', 'write', and 'cat >/dev/tty'.

Re:Bah!

[hpavc]

and the classic 'wall' command

Overlooked something

[AceCaseOR]

So, young people are concerned with Gaim having a fugly UI. Well, what, precicely, is stopping people from writing an attractive looking skin for Gaim? And if it doesn't support skinning, why hasn't anyone written skinning support into Gaim yet?

Hell, if I knew C, and any particular artistic talent, I'd do it.

Re:Overlooked something

[ak3ldama]

yea, that's classic: 'if I knew C.' there's more to software development and in this case what could be a major enhancement than knowing a programming language. hell, I know C, but i am not touching a skinned interface on gaim, because for one you may step on the gtk's skin. so what you would in essence be talking about would be a way to dynamically layout interface contents. ... (runs away into the forest screaming)

Re:Overlooked something

[oGMo]

Well, what, precicely, is stopping people from writing an attractive looking skin for Gaim?

Unfortunately one side effect of growing popularity is an increase in the number of people whose primary talent is complaining. Typically, stuff gets done if something is enough of an issue for someone with both the ability and the need. At this point, said people have neither the ability or enough pressing need to do it themselves, but they're happy to whine about how someone else should.

The solution for this may be to encourage people to feel more like it's their software. Most people are coming from a Windows background where the corporation owns the software, and they are allowed to use it. Free software gives the software to the user; they have a say in what it is. It's not just something someone deigned to allow them to use. With software designed to allow skinning and other easy customization, even those who can't code should be able to contribute something.

Re:Overlooked something

[olympus_coder]

You answered your own question:

"Hell, if I knew C, and any particular artistic talent, I'd do it."

The people who want that spend all their time being cool, while those of us who just want stuff to work are busy learning C, Perl, etc, etc, etc. The people who can change it, don't care because they are to busy doing other things.

I'm not trying to rag on you or anyone that isn't a programmer. However, everyone should realize that the VOLANTEERS that wrote gaim didn't nessisarly do it to make it exactly like MSN or Yahoo. They did it so that people using linux/bsd/solaris for whatever reason could talk to the rest of the world. In fact, I'd guess most of the people responsible are experts at reverse engineering protocols which means flashing UIs are almost irrelivant to them.

Once they succeeded in making Gaim talk to all the various IM systems, the project was no longer interesting. They are interested in protocol work, not UI.

Gaim would be a playground for someone that wants to build a cool UI because there is a huge audiance. But, PLEASE (as others have asked) put one button that says: "Turn off all eye-candy crap" and make sure it works.

Re:Overlooked something

[jmt(tm)]

And if it doesn't support skinning, why hasn't anyone written skinning support into Gaim yet?

No, Gaim does not support skins. If you really want to know the good reasons for this design decision, you could check out the developers words on the topic.

Re:Overlooked something

[Anonymous Coward]

So basicly they're saying that they will not include skin support because they're to lazy to code it?
Seriously, many other programs have skin support, and skins are what's withholding me to use gAIM instead of trillian on my windows boxes.

Re:Overlooked something

[jmt(tm)]

From the Gaim page on skins: skins create a support nightmare. And: Were we to write our own mechanism, we would be adding overhead in both the run time and the time necessary to debug.

Yeah, you're right: they are just too lazy to implement this. It would be far better if the developers would spend more time on writing a skin interface and spend more time with support than to write useful new features or keep track of protocol changes which shut out their userbase from MSN and the likes.

Seriously, many other programs have skin support, and I hardly ever change skins on any of those. With the theming on Qt/KDE and GTK/GNOME I can get more than enough eye candy. The skin for XMMS with the best color contrast for fonts and widgets is the default one. Most Firefox/Thunderbird themes don't support the extensions I use. Changing the look of MPlayer was funny to me for 5 minutes.

Thanks to the Gaim folks to focus on more important stuff. If you want skins, stay with Trillian and Windows. I only want to be able to chat, so I stay with Gaim and Linux.

Re:Overlooked something

[AceCaseOR]

While I know there is much, much more to adding skinning to Gaim then knowing C, if you don't know a language, you can't even start.

Re:Overlooked something

[AceCaseOR]

Okay, those are some good reasons.

However, and has been mentioned, one of the big things non /.ers want with their IM programs is an attractive interface. So, while I respect the reasons by the GAIM Developers don't want skins with their program, perhaps it's time to perhaps time to put out a open-source universal IM client that does. Yes, it'd take a lot of work (I'd do it myself but I don't posess the skills at this time, although one of my goals is to learn programming in C or C++), however, if the big thing users outside of Slashdot are looking for is an IM client that isn't loaded with bloatware, doesn't hog system resources, but still looks nice and thus supports skinning (since "looks nice" is subjective), then, frankly, I think they should get it.

It's true

[try_anything]

Young people have a strong bias against old and busted-looking stuff; they'll almost always favor the newest, flashiest, slickest thing. To them, Linux instant messaging must seem simply broken.

The good news is that they'll grow up and get tired of doing all the stupid stuff that only MSN enables them to do. Shaking someone's IM window is obnoxious even by teenager standards. Exchanging files is the one thing I saw in the article that I would like to do using instant messaging. Fix that (if it doesn't work already) and you'll have everyone over 18.

The guy's an idiot...

[WreckingCru]

...he admits he's 'rant'ing...but it's more than that.

He talks about how MSN messenger is bloated et al just because of the new features it has ....well, the simple solution is - DONT USE THEM!

MSN messenger is one of the better IMs out there and Microsoft is not REQUIRED to produce a version for any other OS. So him claiming that it provides a stronghold for Windows is kinda silly.

Yes - GAIM and Kopete do suck. Gaim looks like a cheap knockoff of AIM, and even that it doesn't do very well. I like Kopete, but it is no less cumbersome to use than any other messenger.

All in all, I think /. needs to STOP publishing articles that start with "I hate Microsoft".

I loved that quote "we call it 'MSN'"

[Rob the Bold]

we usually call it MSN for short here

When I was in high school, while discussing music with a foreign exchange student, she announced: "In France, we call Bruce Springsteen 'The Boss'".

Re:I loved that quote "we call it 'MSN'"

[labratuk]

Congrats. Funniest /. comment I've seen.

Re:I loved that quote "we call it 'MSN'"

[Anonymous Coward]

I always thought that referred to Tony Danza.

Trillian Should Really Consider Cross-Platform

[Ilsundal]

As mature as Trillian is, it still is unable to support ALL of those annoying messenger specific features, but it's as close as you're gonna get in regards to "meeting in the middle" for all IM networks. The skins are very sexy, webcam/filetransfers seem to work without issue. Overall it's gorgeous when you throw away the default skin.

Why not go cross platform? Trillian would be great if one was able to us it on Linux, OSX, etc. natively (I've used it under WINE without issue but that's more work than any regular user would want to go through.) The fact of the matter is that a majority of IM junkies are still not willing to throw away AIM, MSN, Yahoo!, etc. for Trillian on Windows, but it'd surely be a very nice solution for a Linux user. Of course most of their customers would still be under Windows, and one might argue the development costs to go cross platform would not justify the potential customers on these platforms, but seriously a nice IM solution is _so_ needed under Linux. I think the need is greater than they might realize.

Pluses for GAIM

[Apostata]

Although I was very reticent to switch to GAIM (mainly aesthetics), I eventually did, and it's now my main IM app. Ironically, one thing GAIM has that I struggle to find in Windows Messenger is the 'do not show offline contacts' option.

I like the article, and it makes a good point, but I'm not exactly sure if she even knows what it is that Linux IM apps need, aside from swappable skins (?). The features that MSN Messenger have implemented probably aren't available for ICQ either (or Yahoo Messenger) - so why should an inordinate amount of man-hours programming/troubleshooting be spent on a gee-whiz horse race when perhaps questions of overall aesthetics/functionality be addressed first?

One thing I'd like: a GAIM panel icon that supports transparency in KDE.

Gaim / 13 yr old

[profhaptic]

My daughter is 13 and is addicted to gaim. What's the problem?

Re:Gaim / 13 yr old

[Anonymous Coward]

You probably should put her into a gaim treatment program.

Re:Gaim / 13 yr old

[Anonymous Coward]

My daughter is 13 and is addicted to gaim

Right. You're probably a 55 year old perv who pretends to be a 13yo girl so you can chat with different kinds of pervs.

Ugly?

[Anonymous Coward]

He's got a point about file transfer being generally poor, and it would be nice to have webcam support. But I can't see how he can look at MSN messenger and then call Gaim ugly. I could see calling it simple or plain, but I can't see how that could be called ugly. The bloated mess of bright colors and rounded windows that is MSN or Yahoo's client is painfull to look at sometimes. Not everyone likes simple, but its never offensive.

Gaim...

[MsGeek]

...will also get you onto Google Talk, which is basically Google's Jabber server.

It won't do voice chat, but at least you can do IM chat. This is better than the iChat which comes with Mac OS X Panther, which can only do either AIM or .MAC chat and not Jabber. Yes, the Tiger version adds Jabber functionality, but my clamshell iBook can't run Tiger. (The cutoff is native Firewire which the first version of the iBook didn't have.)

Gaim's good on both Linux *and* Windows. The Windows port is solid. And it's Free Software.

Re:Gaim...

[Newtonian_p]

Yes, the Tiger version adds Jabber functionality, but my clamshell iBook can't run Tiger.

Why don't you use XPostFacto?

Re:Gaim...

[Ryan Amos]

On OS X, I've found Fire to be a pretty decent, no frills client. You can chat, and that's all I want. iChat is just annoying to try to use, Apple's UI team must have been on acid that day.

Re:Gaim...

[nicklott]

Gaim's good on both Linux *and* Windows. The Windows port is solid. And it's Free Software.

I disagree with that. Gaim is as buggy as hell on windows. It's partly the UI, so I guess that could be the GTK, but it's forever leaving tooltips over other apps, losing messages, ignoring its prefs and is a bitch to start up if you have logging on (take a tip from jajc guys, DON'T load the entire 2 year's log into history on startup). And some of the keybaord shortcuts are just plain wrong, I mean, as far as I know Ctrl-Z has alway been "Undo", not "Minimize"! who thought of that one?

(And I didn't even mention file transfers)

Re:Gaim...

[MasterD]

iChat which comes with Mac OS X Panther, which can only do either AIM or .MAC chat

Try Adium which has a nice Aqua GUI and uses libgaim underneath to support every IM service.

Re:Gaim...

[Scaba]

You have it backwards - it's the one day they weren't on acid.

YOU ARE MISSING ALOT !!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps if you read the article, you would be more enlightened. Gaim, like ALL the other Linux/OSS Instant Messaging applications lacks voice and video capability. Voice and video have been heavily used by those that use Yahoo, MSN AOL and most recently, Google Talk for Windows. Except for Google, the others have had these capabilities for years! In spite of this no Linux or OSS application yet exists that supports this functionality and, what's worse, is that the developers are not interested in adding these features. They say, like you, that Gaim is good enough. But, that's just what the article is about, people getting stuck in their ways, causing Linux and OSS to get left behind.

Have you looked at Windows since Windows 98? Have you looked at Windows Vista? There are a lot of kick ass applications available for Windows that Linux doesn't have! Just look at Google. Desktop Search, Picassa, Talk, Earth, Secure, and more!

Re:YOU ARE MISSING ALOT !!!

[dfn_deux]

I don't have any interest in using either video or voice chat. I always figured that's what phones and coffee shops were for ;) But since you seem to be making a little ad-hominum attack there I'd like to point out I'm using a windows box with trillian right now and also point out that the kopete faq website lists compatability with MSN video and voice chat as current features... But as long as you are going to argue for one over the other, you have to understand that solutions that are OS agnostic will always be preferable in my book and my favorite feature about gaim is that it is OS agnostic and also hasn't/doesn't/won't display any inline advertising or pop-up windows...

Re:YOU ARE MISSING ALOT !!!

[jfroebe]

just because you don't have interest in a feature, it doesn't mean that someone doesn't have interest in it.

While I loosely agree with the article that GAIM and the like fall short on the more 'communal' aspects of chatting, I tend to like the fvwm like feel to GAIM. Light, compact and not too terribly flashy.

My point is that GAIM and similar chat programs, do *NOT* support *ALL* the features of the commercial ones (MSN Messenger, Yahoo, etc).

Re:YOU ARE MISSING ALOT !!!

[Anonymous Coward]

The fact that you don't use a particular feature does not diminish the value of that feature in any way. Nor does it change the fact that the Windows clients are way ahead of the Linux clients and have had these features for years. The fact is that Yahoo, MSN and AOL have all supported voice and video on the Windows platform for years. The fact is that these features are heavily used by people around the globe. The fact is that there does not appear to be any Linux/OSS equivalent and people like yourself dismiss this by saying, they don't miss this feature.

also point out that the kopete faq website lists compatability with MSN video and voice chat as current features...

Would you be so kind as to post a link to backup your assertion? I have looked at the Kopete site and see no mention of voice or video.

Re:YOU ARE MISSING ALOT !!!

[dfn_deux]

Whoops, didn't mean to misrepresent my source, I was actually looking at the kde wiki. Type kopete video into google and you will get a page of links which refer to MSV voice/video support with kopete under kde..

Re:YOU ARE MISSING ALOT !!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah yes. developer's mailinglist says it is in SVN and is being worked on. They are trying to have it ready in time for the 3.5 release of KDE Q4 2005 or Q1 2006. It also indicates, not surprisingly, that it does not work just as often as it does work.

I'd have to classify this as alpha or not ready for prime time. But, the fact that they are working on it is far more promising than the past few years.

What a load of FUD

[ivan256]

File transfers usually don't work on Windows either. Generally it's because both sides are behind NAT. It has nothing to do with "Advanced clients". When file transfers do work, the only files you recieve that you can't open on Linux are viruses.

The only Windows IM client that is worth consideration is Trillian Pro. And other client either has no good features, or is loaded with ads, or both. The state of IM on Windows sucks just as much as everywhere else... Unless you're on a Mac, but that's another story.

Re:What a load of FUD

[Burpmaster]

FUD? You claim that file transfers don't work on Windows, and you dare to call the same claim against Gaim "FUD"? The cases in which Gaim works are a very small subset of the cases in which a Windows IM client works. If you're behind a NAT, you just need to forward a port. And look at the article: in MSN Messenger, uPNP is used automatically to set up a file transfer from behind a NAT.

But in Gaim, only certain versions of file transfer protocols on certain IM networks are implemented. Starting with Gaim 1.4.0, I can now send files to people using ICQ 5.02 and newer... Too bad nobody uses that version of ICQ. I use Gaim, because it's the best option I've got, but it sucks due to its lack of support for the most basic IM feature beyond sending messages, which is file transfers. I've been able to recieve file transfers from AIM and Yahoo users before, but I've never been able to send them. I get a moving progress bar for the file transfer progress, and it appears to complete succesfully, but they never actually get the file.

Many comments I've seen in this article hurt the credibility of the Open Source community. OpenOffice is better than Microsoft Office. Firefox is better than Internet Explorer, and FreeBSD and Linux are both better than Windows, honestly. And when I tell someone that, I don't want them automatically distrusting me because they saw someone incorrectly claiming that their Windows file transfers don't work, or claiming that a client with missing features is actually better because of it. Or as some have arrogantly claimed, "It's no big deal, you should just use FTP anyway."

Re:What a load of FUD

[ivan256]

FUD? You claim that file transfers don't work on Windows, and you dare to call the same claim against Gaim "FUD"?

Claiming it works one place better than others is FUD when it isn't true. There's no double standard there.

When I've seen UPnP work correctly maybe I'll reconsider. Since I know how it works though, I know that it will only work in a limited number of scenarios, and unless you're a home user who doesn't care about security risks, you're unlikely to fall into one of those categories.

Many comments I've seen in this article hurt the credibility of the Open Source community. OpenOffice is better than Microsoft Office. Firefox is better than Internet Explorer, and FreeBSD and Linux are both better than Windows, honestly. And when I tell someone that, I don't want them automatically distrusting me because they saw someone incorrectly claiming that their Windows file transfers don't work, or claiming that a client with missing features is actually better because of it. Or as some have arrogantly claimed, "It's no big deal, you should just use FTP anyway."

Read my comment. See any of those claims from me? No, right? Well then what the hell are you bitching at me for then? All I said was that IM sucks on both platforms, and that to say one was worse than the other is FUD. When we don't have to be stuck with some cripped single company implementation, maybe things will get better. Until there are standards though, everything will continue to suck.

(As an aside, Firefox *is* better than IE)

Re:What a load of FUD

[Anonymous Coward]

article: in MSN Messenger, uPNP is used automatically to set up a file transfer from behind a NAT.

Just what the doctor ordered: giving usually virus infested Windows machines the power to open up ports on the firewall. Fortunately, corporate firewalls usually put a stop to that sort of nonsense.

Re:What a load of FUD

[Burpmaster]

Claiming it works one place better than others is FUD when it isn't true. There's no double standard there.

But file transfers DO work better in the official Windows IM clients than in the third-party Open Source clients. The official clients know how to receive and send file transfers to both current and prior versions of the software. Gaim doesn't. This is an issue that needs to be addressed before I feel safe recommending Gaim to someone.

When I've seen UPnP work correctly maybe I'll reconsider. Since I know how it works though, I know that it will only work in a limited number of scenarios, and unless you're a home user who doesn't care about security risks, you're unlikely to fall into one of those categories.

You just described most IM users. UPnP is going to work for the vast majority of IM users behind NATs since they will be behind consumer-level NATs provided by their ISP's. And remember that only one of the two users needs a way of accepting an incoming connection. MSN Messenger is going to just work for file transfers. Gaim needs to do that as well.

Read my comment. See any of those claims from me? No, right? Well then what the hell are you bitching at me for then? All I said was that IM sucks on both platforms, and that to say one was worse than the other is FUD. When we don't have to be stuck with some cripped single company implementation, maybe things will get better. Until there are standards though, everything will continue to suck.

I was responding to a lot of posts under this same article, not addressing you specifically. But I found your claim of FUD particularly odd. As I said, the official clients have better file transfer support. In some cases, file transfer is not even implemented in Gaim. At least the official ICQ client has a chance of working. That's gotta be worth something.

(As an aside, Firefox *is* better than IE)

Ah, common ground. I just hope nobody refuses to try Firefox because they were told that some other Open Source software was good, and then found out that features they use were missing or poorly implemented.

Re:What a load of FUD

[KingPrad]

I disagree. The yahoo client is ad-free, nice looking, and has a lot of great features. I try trillian for a while because I like the better chat logging (to plain text files), but I always end up back on Yahoo Messenger for a variety of reasons.

It's a demographic problem...

[AceJohnny]

It's a demographic problem: those who develop the Linux IM programs do it for themselves and their peer group, not for young teens, which they probably don't relate to much.
The features that would interest young teens don't interest those who have a say in developing Free IM's.

However, it's true that Linux IM's in general lack good video and voice integration, but that aspect is related to hardware. I'm confident that these features will appear in time, however, as they *are* quite useful. SIP integration in Jabber maybe? hmmm...

centericq is quite good

[mateo650]

Very stable and I have been using it for years. You can log into all your chat programs at once and it works on a text console.

The article misses the point

[Remillard]

After RTFA, I think the author is missing the point of instant messaging. Strangely enough, it's right there in the name:

Instant: adj.

      1. Occurring at once; immediate:

Messaging: tr,

      1. To send a message to.

It's not instant video chatting, instant flash advertisements, instant voice communications. They are messages. At this Gaim and Kopete work very well indeed. I don't even use the standard MSN, Yahoo, and AIM clients on my WinXP box. It's Gaim and it does everything at once. As far as aesthetics go, Gaim is about as lovely as anything else. Kopete looks as great as you can make KDE look (which is pretty damn good.) In fact, I occasionally turn on the color cycling plugin on Kopete and get lots of positive comments and folks wish they could do that with their clients (just move to Linux!).

The only spot where I think the author is possibly on-topic is file transfers. More often than not though, this is a function of network firewalls and port forwarding. If there was a mode where Gaim/Kopete could self discover an outside IP address and use UPnP port requests, then I'm sure it'd work phenomenally in our household.

Re:The article misses the point

[ldeviator]

Ya mean UPnP NAT traversal like this? http://gaim.sourceforge.net/summerofcode/adam/

Re:The article misses the point

[skubeedooo]

I can't see the point in slavishly adhering to definitions. Other people like using MSN because it has non-messaging functions like whiteboard and pictures and so on. What do you think they're going to reply to your "oh but video isn't messaging"? Consider other statements like

• the words 'word' and 'processing' have nothing to do pictures - so you should remove all picture embedding facilities from OOo and MS Word.
• the word 'computer' means a device that performs high speed mathematical or logical operations. obviously that has nothing to do with music, so the very idea that people would want to listen to music on their computer is absurd.
• the word 'concert' is to do with a musical performance. clearly there is no need to include dancing or lighting in this. most pop bands must be pretty stupid to not realise this.

In short, make what people want, not what a dictionary tells you to.

Re:The article misses the point

[Remillard]

Yep, exactly like that. Can't wait to see it in action when it hits the stable releases.

Re:The article misses the point

[fairyliquidizer]

Messaging doesn't have to be text, it can be the sending of any communication. In UK Law "messages" refers to all telecommunications for example. The 1913 Webster edition uses this definition: Message \Mes"sage\ (?; 48), n. [F., fr. LL. missaticum, fr. L. mittere, missum, to send. See Mission, and cf. Messenger.] 1. Any notice, word, or communication, written or verbal, sent from one person to another. Moreover a number of people seam to be running very old versions of GAIM because GAIM does use UPNP to open ports on firewalls for filetransfers etc. I have no problems at all with GAIM file transfers but do think that the UI is hardly fantastic and at times miss the ease of initiating a voice conversation with a friend to talk him through setting a program up for example. Linux on the Desktop has a number of challenges and the inconsistent and often poorly designed UIs are often at the heart of the usability issues. It makes a great server OS and a passable desktop. However many, but not all, people want the latest in Messageing (and other) application features and Linux isn't the place to get it (sadly as I cut my teeth programming for HP and have a warm place in my heart for UNIX derivatives).

Re:The article misses the point

[Anonymous Coward]

Look, You are missing the point. The definition of messaging (as you quote) does not say anything about text messages. Visual communication fits very well into the definition too.

I have been pained with the crappiness (even non-existence) of video messaging capabilities in linux (Gaim ? Duh ! forget it) I work with my friend overseas on problems that require communicating fairly heavy mathematical formulae, both of us were "brought up on" linux, but we are forced to switch to windoze when we talk, because its simply easier (and far more efficient) to write stuff on a whiteboard. Its time linux had better instant messengers.

Re:The article misses the point

[Anonymous Coward]

Your definition of messaging falls a bit short. Who says a message has to be in writing? Voice conferencing, voice chat, drawing, music, morse code, file transfers, smoke signals and dead horse heads are all "messages". Quality messaging software should be able to send all kinds of messages.

You know, there's a linux distro specific for 'go'

[Anonymous Coward]

"hikaru linux" or somesuch.

why not a IM-centric linux distro? Put it on a liveCD. have a function to re-burn it to include your updated contacts list (like rolling in windows updates to an install cd).

I do not enjoy IM, and I don't run linux, so I'm not the person to do this, but maybe someone else is.

How about AMSN?

[RoadkillBunny]

It supports quite a lot of stuff MSN7 supports that kopete and gaim's msn plugins don't, like webcam and Ink messages. And it has everything the other linux messengers have like working display pic, custom emotions, file transfter... Only if there was a release soon. :)

Re:How about AMSN?

[IvanTheViking]

Grab it from CVS for now, aMSN is good eats. http://amsn.sourceforge.net/

Note: You will need to compile something to make it work from CVS, even after you have the deps. (Which should be expected from CVS)

Adium X

[ChrisF79]

I'm a mac user and I love Adium X and would love to see it get ported to Linux. It's such an easy program to customize, very nice interface, and absolutely free. Just seems like a great fit for Linux in my opinion.

Re:Adium X

[CupBeEmpty]

AMEN... I got turned on to Adium about 10 seconds after bought my first mac. I will say it is an excelent example of an IM client that not only is functional but looks nice right "out of the box" if you will.

I certainly agree that functionality is the ultimate concern and looking nice is secondary. BUT if people ever want linux to become mainstream it will have to look pretty and have pretty applications. That is why I enjoy programs like Adium. They look good, they work well, easily customizable, even my computer illiterate friends can use it. Basically you have to make a program cool enough that people will say "wow for the same amount of work as downloading AIM I can get this and it does everything and more." Then if you can do that with the linux desktop people will say "wow for the same amount of work I can get Linux and it does what windows does only better and its no $200 and my goodness look at these shiny widgets." Its sort of a little whell driving the big wheel when it comes to everyday programs for the linux desktop.

Re:Adium X

[spin2cool]

Adium is based on gaim. All they did was add a pretty interface.

Re:Adium X

[jjeffries]

Adium is pretty much the GAIM guts with a native OSX interface...

Re:Adium X

[parmadil]

Sadly for Linux, Adium is written in Cocoa, which means it's GNUstep or nothing off of OS X - and even then porting is not necessarily a walk in the park.

Re:Adium X

[Anonymous Coward]

this is why i hate mac users, everything is "i love this", "i love that", "very nice", i like more the linux way.

Re:Adium X

[qa'lth]

Not only that, AdiumX taps into some Carbon libs, too, and uses WebKit to draw the message logs. There's no equivalent to WebKit for GNUstep yet, so that really puts a damper on the port work.

Re:Adium X

[pitc]

Seeing Adium X ported to Linux would tickle me pink (quack), but I wont hold my breath.

Mind you, Gaim became much more attractive when I discovered the magic gtk-theme-switch2 utility.

Hmm

[carguy84]

Do they sell Linux Messagers at Brookstone?

After read TFA...

[xtracto]

But I can't understand why every Free and Open Source advocate basically snobs IM's. Gaim and Kopete are just not good enough. I mean that their target public (i.e. young people) just won't care to use it

Well, it is my personal opinion from what I have seen here that the "young people" is not the only sector using this programs. As an example my flatmate he is making his PhD and has some buisness going in Mexico. He use to get into MSN Messenger every other night and video conference with some people back there to discuss work.

Now, as I am a LInux enthusiast, I would NEVER tell him to try linux because the ability to interact with people at the other side of the planet with the press of the mouse button is something that makes his work possible.

As a side note, he told me about certain software to do Mind Maps on windows, it is available for free to use in our university, I tried to look for an open source replacement and only found Free Mind... which is kind of 1/4 of what the other program [Mind Genius] is.

Kind of shows you how when talking about Open Source software... there are only (what?) 15 "Mature" applications.

A Lame Gaim Claim

[digitaldc]

"Their interfaces are terrible. Moreover, all you can do with them is write basic IMs."
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaim
Features:

• Tabbed message windows for easy switching of conversations Accounts option allows user to log on as many different accounts at once as desired

• Transparency support via a plugin for conversation and buddy list windows (only under Microsoft Windows)

• Aliasing nicknames by real name of user

• Grouping different buddies that are really the same person into a "contact" [2]

• Logging conversations and messages supported [3]

• Buddy Pounce feature pops up notifications or plays a sound when a user changes status [4]

Plugins:
Gaim supports plugins for RSA and GPG encryption, as well as Off-the-record messaging.

See GAIM plugins: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/plugins.php/
More info about GAIM: http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node=GAIM

Re:A Lame Gaim Claim

[jonthegm]

Where's the voice chat? The large avatars? A way to "skin" the program easy enough for my mother to figure out? Video chat? Not to mention that the file transfers are mildly wonky (not as bad as they used to be). Yeah... gAIM is "just as good" as Messenger! :eyeroll: I'd say it's about par with where AIM was about 10 years ago.

Re:A Lame Gaim Claim

[jilles]

You think those are major features, I think that's unimportant entry level stuff. If even that wouldn't work right you'd have a pretty shitty tool. The problem with linux desktop software is that
1) their developers are biased to developers. Most of them don't understand the needs of users, especially not when these users are 16 year old highschool girls.
2) their developers have rather strange ideas (for a windows user) about how user interfaces should function and what features are important.

Sure you can do IM on linux. You'll be able to send text to just about any IM network invented, ever. You'll be able to do so from dozens of different clients. And they all look like rather conservative business tools. As does most of the linux desktop.

What's lacking is a forward thinking attitude. Personal communication is a hot thing (and not new at all) and all the linux community does is whine and catch up with yesterdays software. MSN users are used to msn which has a featureset that includes text messaging and a whole lot else. The whole lot else part is actually pretty important to some users. The whole lot else part implemented pretty poorly in msn alternatives (if at all), including miranda-im, gaim, trillian, kopete and other clients I've tried over the years (miranda im is my default client now).

Now what makes me angry is not the fact that this stuff is lacking (I don't care) but that this thread is full of people who are trying to argue away the need for improvement. IMHO this attitude and not any technical limitation is what has been, and will continue to keep linux off the desktop of ordinary users.

What's worrying is not that gaim is such a primitive tool but that its developers are pretty pleased with it. Where's the ambition to implement some cool stuff? Where's the ambition to go beyond what microsoft is doing? This total lack of ambition to improve anything on the linux desktop is what's keeping it back, not the competition (or lack thereoff) from microsoft.

Just look what apple has done in just a few years: they constantly poor out new exciting stuff with a fraction of the number of developers working full time on Gnome and KDE. They too have to deal with Microsoft. But at the end of the day Microsoft looks at apple and not at linux to see what features to clone.

Re:A Lame Gaim Claim

[digitaldc]

I wasn't arguing away the need for improvement, that will come from competition and choice based on demands of the users. If Linux is lacking certain features on commonly-used tools, they will have to create them before it will be accepted by most users. I just thought there was room for GAIM to be reworked and upgraded. Maybe someone who reads this will get a better idea on how to modify it and create something better than before.
PS Jilles, I really like the photo from London IV IMG_2362 taken on 9/25/05 11:16 AM of the castle with the moat, that is awesome! Someday I will build a castle and moat of my own :)
http://photos.jillesvangurp.com/Album/2005/2005%20 IV%20London/index.html

Re:A Lame Gaim Claim

[WWWWolf]

Yeah, guess why I really wanted to use these Linux instent message systems? They actually have sensible UIs. Fast, clear, coherent, sensible, unintrusive, no advertising crap.

The only thing in Windows IMs that got me to drool was Exodus, which was far cooler Jabber client than anything on GNOME at the time. I humbly ate my GNOME fanaticism and installed Psi to get rid of this horrible feeling. =)

Re:A Lame Gaim Claim

[thedustbustr]

This was also my impression when I tried it again a few months ago...

Re:A Lame Gaim Claim

[Peter La Casse]

You think those are major features, I think that's unimportant entry level stuff.

The number one feature for me in choosing Gaim was a drop-in no-brainpower-required encryption solution. This feature is absent from all of the officially supported and third party IM clients I tried. (I also appreciate Gaim's cross-platform nature now that I've switched to a Linux desktop.)

You call the previously posted feature list "unimportant entry level stuff," and I partly agree: built-in client-based easy-to-use encryption is a basic feature that any IM client that purports to be a good IM client should support. What other clients offer this feature? (I'm seriously interested; I'm not opposed to switching if I can find something that works better than Gaim. Support for Yahoo videoconferencing on Linux would be a big plus.)

Re:A Lame Gaim Claim

[TheAwfulTruth]

The fact that this comment was marked as "Flamebait" and not "Insightful" (which it is) is a condemnation of the mod system is there ever was one.

Dismantle the mod system! It promotes GroupThink and shuts out dissenting optinion!

Re:A Lame Gaim Claim

[Anonymous Coward]

The fundamental flaw in the /. moderation system is that it only works when people bother to meta-moderate.

When Will There Be An Imeem Client For Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

I've got IRC, and the only thing I've seen that might supplant it is imeem but no version is available yet (althoug it runs on mono without a UI - so it must be possible)

Re:Spelling, people.

[Anonymous Coward]

Dear AC:

As a dyslexic I must say that spelling errors are very hard for me. After all, if I can't read it, and can't look it up in a dictionary I'm stuck.

So, for dyslexics the world over, thank you. The better your spelling is, the more I can read.

I tought this was a news site

[Anonymous Coward]

MSN Messenger 7: consolidating Windows' lock-in strategy?
Written by special contributor Stéphane Rieppi on 2005-01-15 04:36:21 UTC

Some are missing the point..

[Unski]

The author of the article is railing against the argument that there is no room for Form when trying to implement Function;

He is essentially saying 'I am the same as any other Linux zealot, however I am magnanimous enough to recognise that I am not the youth of today, and that my needs, justifiable as they are, are not the same as Da Yoof.' Thus, the eye-candy in MSN, he suggests, is not to his tastes but 'they' like it and 'they' are the next generation of potential Linux users.

So comments defending GAIM are either missing the point of the author, or are seriously in denial. Some prat pitches in to say 'well GAIM is patched quicker than Trillian' and another prick says 'I'll take the simplicity of GAIM'. While I'm sure he and his other online contact are happy with spartan interfaces which, truly, have not evolved since 2000, I'm more than happy with MSN. Even though I can't see the source code. Even though everything goes through MSN's servers, centrally.

Here in the UK, it is MSN which is the dominant IM app in my world. I use it, and I quite get off on the fact that plenty of other, much more normal people use it, and that plenty in the /. community would rather cutoff their noses, to spite their face, than use something that doesn't fit with their spiteful little crypto-socialist ethos, even though it is quite good.

Re:Some are missing the point..

[Anonymous Coward]

And then there are idiots like you who insult people who which to retain their privacy. Bravo.

Re:Some are missing the point..

[Unski]

Could you spell that out to me? Oh. You can't spell. Where is privacy mentioned in the article or in my post? You must have taken offence also at my usage of the term 'Linux zealot', because by token of your obsession with privacy, you must be one.

Are you one of the people who 'which' to retain their privacy? Why not just shut the curtains before masturbating over ASCII porn?

I am really very sorry for upsetting you, but at least the Anonymous Coward mode does allow you to preserve that all important privacy. Having read your comprehensive argument, I am convinced you must have _so_ much going on in your life, that you do indeed need that privacy.

how about vertical tabs?

[sergiolopes]

And most love the tabbed interface for multiple conversations in one window.

I really never liked Gaim tabs. Having to scroll horizontally to see the other chat windows never really suited me. It'd be great, though, if they did vertical tabs, just like the MSN Messenger add-on, Messenger Plus.

Re:how about vertical tabs?

[laymil]

Tools->Preferences->Conversations->Tab placement:
Top
Bottom
Left
Right

Left and right are vertical tabs.

Webbased IM

[ronnieroller]

Mabye something like this https://www.meebo.com/ will be good for linux users

The cool kids use web-based IM

[werelnon]

Who cares if you use Linux, or OS/2 for that matter. If you're using a web-based IM client you can even log in from your local library terminal. Here is an example of a web-based IM client that let's you text, VoIP, voicemail, and conference call, all without any installation and on your browser and OS of choice. Forget this installable stuff :).

Let me summarize the article for ya

[Mr.Surly]

"The kiddies really like shiny crap, so we should make shiny crap that they'll like."

No, really.

Just use jabber

[ecloud]

Not sure whom he's exhorting here... open-source developers? Microsoft? Linux is the OS by the people and for the people, so if the people don't add the features that he thinks they want to their apps, then maybe they don't want them as bad as he thinks.

But tagging along on MS's coattails isn't going to get us anywhere. What is needed is for Windows people to use Jabber; then we can really have interoperability and end the IM wars. And if it doesn't have enough features to make that compelling, then they need to be added. And the Jabber server used to be interoperable with other IM's (including MSN I think), not sure if it still is but that was a really good feature. Hopefully its interoperability includes file transfer. Voice IMO already has a couple of good implentations (asterisk for sure, and then there are skype and some others), and if people think that IM and voice belong together then the IM client could include a SIP client as well. Next they will be wanting video. CUCMe anybody? I remember it working already in 1994, perhaps earlier...why don't we leapfrog for once and get video well-integrated into IM as well?

As for me, I don't really "get" IM - don't like to be interrupted all the time. Email works just fine, thank you.

True hardcore Linux users just use talk/ntalk/ytalk, of course. :-)

talk baby!

[scorpioX]

Screw all this fancy IM and IRC crap! talk forever!

$ talk
Usage: talk user [ttyname]

Now playing:

[matt me]

Although MSN 'improves' our social lives now, it can also break them. Someone once came online with now playing: hardcore lesbians play with toys. I love Gaim!

Gaim Summer of Code

[zephos]

I think its ironic that this article made Slashdot at the particular time. Gaim's summer of code had projects ranging from Yahoo Whiteboard support, to better file transfers, to group editing of text files/images/music. Also support for audio VoIP. There is also a webcam plugin in the works for gaim as well [though I'm uncertain for which protocol(s) they are aiming at. It is for exactly these features that gaim hasn't released a new version in much longer than their normal development cycle. In perhaps a few weeks most of these complaints [as well as many other advantages like dbus and fixed perl interfaces] will be irrelevant.

Old article?

[strongmantim]

Is it me or is the date on this article from January 2005? I think the /. admins need to hire some extra people to read through all submissions. Having a nine-month backlog of submissions is unacceptable.

Sounds like a troll

[dtfinch]

Gaim is the best IM I've used on Windows or Linux. MSN messenger looks and behaves like a piece of crap. That I had to use the command line to disable it on Windows was bad enough.

gaim

[fanblade]

I wonder if the author ever tried gaim a few years ago. I first tried it ~2001 for AOL instant messaging and man, it stunk. The preferences were half-baked and it would crash on the Solaris machine I ran it on. Plus, the developers were still figuring out AIM's protocol which meant that basic text was about all you could expect.

I tried the latest version again this week and I was appreciative of the progress they've made. The prefs are easy to understand, it doesn't crash (so far), and it is more similar to windows AIM (which is what I usually use).

Next Killer App?

[PoconoPCDoctor]

Umm..maybe Linux Instant Messaging IS the next killer app? Check out the spelling of the Linux article.... http://www.poconopcdoctor.com/nextkillerapp.JPG

Google Talk?

[LWATCDR]

I wonder what features Google talk will add.

Date of the article

[paulicat]

Jeez, it must be a really slow news day when you have to link to a nearly one year old article on Osnews.

Custom emoticons

[Spy der Mann]

A friend in MSN showed me a blue furry creature that looks like a pokèmon, and it was waving "hi", smiling and everything. I instantly clicked on it, and added to my custom MSN smileys. Whenever I say "hi" to my female MSN friends using this custom smiley, they all say "awwww how cute! ^_^ where did you get that?" or something. (love hint: yes fellow slashdotters, girls like all that cute stuff)

This custom smiley is some kind of social phenomena. Custom emoticons begin appear computer, and the next day they're everywhere because they can be easily transferred between computers.

For years i've been waiting for F/OSS messengers (for Windows, i mean) to have this custom emoticon feature. And I'm still waiting...

Re:Custom emoticons

[borsi]

aMSN has the custom emoticons feature. You can download it at http://www.amsn.sourceforge.net/. You'll need Tcl/Tk to run it.

Re:Custom emoticons

[phantomfive]

If you want a full-feature MSN client, you can use Mercury. It is written in Java, so it is cross platform. I had the same issues as you, until I found Mercury.

Re:Custom emoticons

[hitmark]

and i fear that you may have to wait forever (or as long as a patent lasts).

why? i belive that MS have filed for a patent on custom emoticons.

VERY outdated article!

[Alexis Boulva]

god! have you seen the date on that article?!!?!

"Written by special contributor Stéphane Rieppi on 2005-01-15 04:36:21 UTC"

that isn't even funny! heh.. anyway, since january things have come a LOOOONGG way in the IM world. take a look at the CVS of aMSN if you'd like more info - it's got webcam, doodles, nudges and more (but there might be things i don't know about, i haven't been keeping track of it lately)

disconnects

[F�an�ro]

one areay were gaim seems to be lacking is behaviour on disconnects/reconnects
There is a plugin to automatically retry whenever the connection is lost, but even with that it is barely workable.

I have to use an unreliable wlan connection, and whenever the signal drops for a moment, three gaim windows suddenly pop up or try to grab focus, and a reconnect rarely seems to work, usually i have to do it manually

Antiquated Ideals with Linux as a Community

[bleaknik]

Am I the only one who understands where this article is going?

Linux is a wonderful, efficient, relatively secure operating system, but damned, the UI is fugly on almost every distro. Even the "perdy" distros have UI deficiencies.

Why does this matter? It works, it's functional, right?

Short Answer... Yes... Long Answer... No.

In the ideal Linux world, everyone has discard MS Windows, and they are strictly using open source software... There is no concern over quality of software, no concern over usability, and no concern over closed protocols, software, and formats.

That's not the case. Most of the world uses Windows, and that's just the way it is. Windows does offer something that Linux doesn't offer in that sense... a relatively consistent (*sigh*) user interface, a relatively attractive (*sigh*) visual style, and relatively easy-to-manage (*sigh*) suite of software.

Point is, how do you tell an inexperienced Linux user to install a different visual style?
How do you tell an inexperienced Linux user to install new hardware (think something without pre-compiled Linux compatible drivers)?
How do you tell an inexperienced Linux user to do most every day things?

I'm sure I'll get flamed for this comment, but I have used Windows, OS X, and Linux. Plain and simple Linux is not the easiest to learn from a new user standpoint.

Sure, I'll hear the argument that once you learn, you'll be fine. Explain that to the old persons in my family who don't want to learn. Explain that to the young persons in my family who don't understand why they should learn Linux.

I am not trying to say the Linux needs to copy every Windows / OS X feature or functionality, in fact I'm quite opposed to this. Linux has a powerful kernel that's being underutilized by a copycat interface.

Why do the creative minds of the Linux community insist on duplicating Windows. Linux != Windows. Create a new interface. Move into a different direction that what we know now. Here's a novel idea. Forge a new, easier, more efficient way to use a computer.

Of course, the underlying principle is still this... GAIM is not MSN. GAIM is merely trying to duplicate how classic MSN/AOL/Y! looked and felt. It's been done. Move on.

I'm not saying that GAIM needs to recreate the annoying Screen Shake or whatever it's called. I'm not saying GAIM needs to recreate MSN/AIM/Y!/ICQ/Google Talk/etc. Do something original with it. Give me a compelling reason to use it. Give me an application that's not bloated (*coTRILLIANugh*). Give me something more intuitive (*coADIUMugh*) but unique (*coDOESN'TEXISTugh*).

The Linux community as a whole is stuck in this antiquated mindset. Let's move on. It's time to change. Linux doesn't need to be just for elite, make it available and usable (keyword) to the masses.

But, what do I know?

Re:Antiquated Ideals with Linux as a Community

[Anonymous Coward]

> Am I the only one who understands where this article is going?
Yes

Linux is bad... mmmkey?

Re:Antiquated Ideals with Linux as a Community

[entrigant]

In the ideal Linux world, everyone has discard MS Windows, and they are strictly using open source software...

I disagree with this, and I really have a hard time understanding why articles like this think the focus should be on attracting users. Whatever happened to the grand old idea of scratching an itch? It's MY itch damnit. If other people like the software so be it, but an author shouldn't change his vision of what he wants his app to be because some teeny bopper windows kiddie demands he does.

I am of the belief that windows is the way it is because of its users. Masses of willfully ignorant people demanding all the wrong things from a company that must cater to them. Part of the beauty of OSS is we can ignore these idiots, tell them to keep using windows, and to leave us alone. Linux is an OS made by geeks for geeks.... lets keep it that way. Thanks.

Gaim Rocks, the author sucks...

[GReaToaK_2000]

Ok, I have used Trillian, MSM, YIM, AOL, ICQ AND GAIM (on BOTH platforms)... I have accounts in all FOUR of the "big IM" systems. So for me, it is simply a choice of Gaim or Trillian.

Trillian is good, not free (well the 'OK' version is), it allows all accounts to run through it... But, it doesn't come with an integrated spell checker for the "free" version, fine, pay for it right? No... It's pretty but still too "glamorous" as far as I care.

Personally, I can NOT STAND the advertisement BS that comes with MSM, YIM, AIM and ICQ. They SUCK as far as my opinion goes. In addition they don't have all the features that Gaim and Trillian come with.... (multiple accounts, spell checker, NO ADS, etc.)

So, GAIM ROCKS!!!! I use it at home on my linux systems and on my windows systems at work. In addition I have it installed on my USB key so that I don't have to be without IM anywhere I go. It stores all logs on the key and I have it working with both linux and windows off the key. How cool is that??? (also have Thunderbird and Firefox on it as well)

So, Gaim...
o Spell checker
o No Adds
o Simple yet POWEFUL interface that works with ALL FOUR of my accounts

Sure it doesn't have those "sissy", "GUI-Skins" and Advertisements that the author apparently likes, but as far as I am concerned... Simple, complete, powerful... GAIM (for windows AND linux) Top THAT bitch!!!

I am so tired of... "well linux doesn't have a pretty this or a fancy that..."

Then DON'T use it. Shut up and go back to your windows box or worse your Mac... (sorry mac fans, I'm in rant mode, I know plenty of fine Mac users. :) No hard feelings right? ;-) )

The determing factor in chosing an IM client....

[AndyG314]

... In my experience has usualy been what the people you want to talk to use. All the features in the world won't get you users unless the people you want to talk to are on the network. As I find mysef forced to use more and more networks (I started with AIM but now use IRC,YAHOO and now jabber) Gaim means I don't need 8 chatt clients on my desktop.

Wrong... This is why open source is so great!

[CyborgWarrior]

If you want to make it easy, make a script that will do it for her... how hard is it to write something that grandma can double click on her desktop that will upgrade it for her from source? download the current tarball, unpack it, configure/make/make install. I was basing my example on his anyway, do you think it was grandma running rpm -f??

For his purpose of upgrading it, which it sounds like he did himself anyway, doing it from source is no more complicated (and more likely to work) than downloading the RPM's which he is obviously having problems with. This isn't something bad about open source; in fact, I think it's one of its great abilities! How many windows installers do you have an option to do it by hand when the installer won't work?? You don't! With open source tarballs, you at least have an alternative option that you can do yourself.

Re:Wrong... This is why open source is so great!

[michrech]

If you are going to do all this compiling, you might as well be using Gentoo so you don't HAVE to make a script.

"emerge gaim" to do initial install, "emerge -u gaim" to update (after a sync, of course, which *could* be set in a weekly cron job) in the future!

Re:Wrong... This is why open source is so great!

[doubledoh]

How many windows installers do you have an option to do it by hand when the installer won't work??

Umm, whenever I used a windows installer, it works, period. I've NEVER encountered a windows installer that didn't work. Ever. The program might suck, but it installs and novices knows predictably WHERE it installed as well (and without using "whereis" commands).

I am a Linux user...but I don't think anyone can argue that installing packages that are not in your sources list is easier than downloading and doubleclicking on a "install.exe" file in windows. But I DO enjoy your point about shell scripts that can do it all for you (which is really what windows installers are). It would make alot of sense if linux programs could simply be downloaded to desktop, doubleclicked on, ask for your sudo password, then go the the install motions AUTOMATICALLY detecting your disto, configuration, etc...and possibly asking if you'd like a shortcut installed to your app menu, if you want to make it the default program for a particular set of filetypes and so on...just like windows installers do. Linux can learn alot from windows when it comes to installation ease, and obviously in turn, windows can learn from linux when it concerns security (and making sure users really know what they are installing).

Until Linux packages are as easy to install as install.exe's, Linux loses big time in that respect. There's no debate there. I argue that it is THIS problem alone that really holds linux back from the big time, not instant messengers. If instant messengers were easy to install (and worked without odd hacks and forum digging), they would improve exponentially because their audience would have increased expontially as well to justify the extra development.

Linux is headed in the right direction...but the persistant folly of installation and upgrading woes is heavy plow holding it back.

Re:Wrong... This is why open source is so great!

[orasio]

That's what distros are for.
They do have all the packages you might want.
If you find yourself searching for new software not in your sources list, you picked the wrong distribution. I would pick Ubuntu for new users. Plus they have a great spanish-speaking community, which is a plus if I don't want to give lots of hours of support.

Re:Wrong... This is why open source is so great!

[doubledoh]

If you find yourself searching for new software not in your sources list, you picked the wrong distribution

This attitude is exactly why so many people don't pick any Linux distributions at all. Windows will always install new software. No excuses.

Re:Wrong... This is why open source is so great!

[unapersson]

Yeah it's great, you can download programs from all over the place and just install them. And they can often come with all sorts of cool extras. They all pop straight into the brilliant menu structure too, filed under the name of the company that made them.

Seriously though, the issue with installing software reminds me of the article posted on slashdot a while back listing the top 5 security myths (or something like that). One of the entries mentioned having a white list of good software rather than attempting to build a blacklist of malware. This is some Linux already provides. The software you download from your distro archives has been whitelisted. You're not just installing random software you found on an FTP server. This is a huge step forward, and one big security advantage Linux has over Windows software.

The fact you can't double click on an executable file you receive by email is a big plus in my book.

Re:Wrong... This is why open source is so great!

[doubledoh]

I never understand how we can't remain on topic when it concerns the difficulty of Linux installations. Instead of focusing on the problems of Linux, we are led into a whole other discussion about its security features. Yes, we all realize that Linux has a more secure list of "safe" software and has a better software installation procedure (with its package managers only). That doesn't negate the fact that many people want to go outside of the box (and their sources list) and install new software that hasn't been whitelisted and packaged for their distro (yet or ever). Once you require this and you are a linux novice, you are screwed. Security is great, but what good is that if you can't install the software you want without spending hours on some forum with a bunch of other confused users with different configurations and non-universal setups? There is absolutely no reason for this. Linux *could* copy the windows intaller model add a sudo password requirement dialog (just like when you use a package manager), and automate the installation process no matter what distro is being used. Linux could do this, but it doesn't. Installing a package from source is no different from downloading an installer from the internet concerning security. There IS a big difference however to the novice computer user: In Windows they can actually install their desired program, in Linux they are mystified. Linux is great for people that need the internet, office, email etc. But for "power users" that are not programming pros, linux is a nightmare when they start adding and customizing and upgrading and tweaking and so forth. Linux has the security thing down. But software for linux needs to be universal across distros and easy to install. You know it, I know it, and so do 98% of desktop users that don't use Linux.

Re:Wrong... This is why open source is so great!

[orasio]

But then, the whitelist feature would be lost.
As it is now, users of GNU/Linux either are either completely mainstream office users, somewhat knowledgeable home users, or have some somewhat knowledgeable admin.

I believe that your problem is what you think "Linux" is . Linux is a kernel. It serves as a kernel for industrial uses, server uses, workstation uses, desktop uses. You are looking for an OS and a suite of apps. That's what SuSE does, or Ubuntu, or RedHat.

SuSE does a good job with mainstream types. It has enough software for most of your needs, everything whitelisted, and supported.

Ubuntu is cool for people who don't necessarily know that much about the unix-like environment, but like to tinker with stuff.

"Desktop Linux" can't do what you want, because there is no such entity as "Desktop Linux". There are several distributions with a "desktop" approach, and each of them has different target audiences, and it would be naive to ask for software to install on everyone. After all, you don't try to install your OSX software on every BSD-based software distribution? and I don't hear anybody saying that it's a flaw in BSD software, that you can't install ITunes on FreeBSD.

You have to start at the distribution level, and ask yourself if SuSE meets your needs, or Ubuntu or whatever. The whole issue with "linux" software installation is that the best way to do it is packaging it with the distro. third party software does get "whitelisted" by being included in trusted repositories.
If you want some software that has not been packaged for you, then you need someone to do it, someone that can use ./configure ; make ; sudo make install . It happens to have the nice consequence that only people with a little bit of knowledge do install software on your computer. That can be nice.

Re:Wrong... This is why open source is so great!

[jedidiah]

Oh, I can think of quite a few times where Windows offered excuses/refusals.

OTOH, the tendency to casually crap over all over your OS libraries is not necessarily a feature.

It's more like: Need an IM client? Oh, one's already installed.

Re:Wrong... This is why open source is so great!

[jedidiah]

I just use the facility provided by the OS and the OS does the rest.

      However, that's just me & I'm weird.

      Downloading zipfiles is so 1980's.

      Software doesn't need to be "universal". It just needs to be tied into whatever software installation facilities are available to the distribution or done Installshield style if the author thinks that's appropriate.

        Such installers have been in use by commercial Linux vendors for longer than people have been complaining about this alleged problem.

        What is being whined about here is the fruits of what are essentially shareware authors. The sense of entitlement being displayed here is simply pathetic.

Re:Wrong... This is why open source is so great!

[jellomizer]

Ok Mr. Linux Zealot. This is the type of information that is harmful to Linux. Guess what a Lot of people may need to install an application that is not on the distribution. Just because the distribution doesn't have it it doesn't mean that you chosen the wrong Linux distribution. You may have chosen that distribution because it is the only one that proply supports your new hardware, but it may not have came with one Application. Also there are a lot of applications out there and some of them may not be that popular, but they do the job you want and only 100 people in the world use it. Linux needs to be designed to install applications a lot easer. I for one prefer the Static Binaries and organized like Mac OS X method. Which is very rare.

Re:Wrong... This is why open source is so great!

[rhendershot]

>>I've NEVER encountered a windows installer that didn't work

Microsoft Visio comes to mind as an installer that sucks. Many manipulations required to get that one to install...

Re:Wrong... This is why open source is so great!

[Billly Gates]

lol

You may want to go do a search for the Unix Haters manual on Google? The introduction it mentioned how writing scripts corrupts minds forever in the unix world when they think its a normal act, like a child in a third world country thinks being covered in flies is part of the natural condition.

The idea of writing a script in the first place is proposterious for a home pc for grandma. Its not like we are at work being in charge of a server processing thousands of users. It proves the other poster right about ease of use and why under windows you just stick the cdrom in and point and click. After all your dvd player works this way easy enough right?

Re:Wrong... This is why open source is so great!

[51mon]

"Yes, we all realize that Linux has a more secure list of "safe" software and has a better software installation procedure (with its package managers only). That doesn't negate the fact that many people want to go outside of the box (and their sources list) and install new software that hasn't been whitelisted and packaged for their distro (yet or ever)"

If the software has never been packaged for the distro then it obviously will require recompiling and distro know-how. What Windows doesn't require this? Of course not Windows is effectively just one distro", but what do you do if your software hasn't been packaged for Windows? That the average GNU/Linux user has the tools and clue to cope with this situation doesn't mean that it is a prerequisite for using GNU/Linux distros.

Windows retains it's "just one distro" feel by trying to maintain backward compatibility with the older APIs, which is why you are recommended to switch 8.3 file name compatibility off in IIS to limit your chances of being owned by all the accumulated dross required to maintain such compatibility.

Installing software on some Linux distros is pretty much the same as Windows, except that you know it will work in a secure multi-user environments, and it'll come as a package in a well defined format, rather than as an .exe, a .zip or .msi, or some other random format the Windows developer in question thought was a good idea at the time.

You can't just say "Linux doesn't do this", by all means say "Debian stable with options X and Y" doesn't do this, but other distros default to having an installer run when you click a package file. Probably stupid, but they do it in the interests of allowing users to mess up more easily. People do all sorts of stupid things in pursuit of user friendliness, and as a result make the machines harder to understand, less secure, and make life harder for the end user. Don't get me started on distros that open "root shells" that don't require passwords.

How will you upgrade the software? These flashing icons when an app feels out of date are daft, first people ignore them, and second the software will be out of date when it isn't being used, welcome to "privilege escalation hell", it is like DLL hell, except your box is owned instead of unusuable at the end of it. Alternatively it could all phone home, and install it's own TSR to chew memory and try calling home at regular intervals, yeah neat.

The reason "free software" does this differently (not Linux), is we don't have that backward compatibility hell, if we need to change an app that uses some hideously outdated feature to make a more secure OS we change it, and tighten the OS, not make the OS bend over backwards for years and years.

As such the reason these discussions come back to security, is because how you install software cuts right at the heart of how you build and maintain secure computers, it is about knowing what code is where, who can run it, and making sure it is upto date.

When was the last time you saw a Linux box saying "Searching for code containing the GDI vulnerability" (and searching again when the patch is rereleased a few months later)".

Anyone asking why does program X that works for distro 1, does not also install and run in distro 2, should ask why don't I fit the exhaust for my Ford the same way into a Vauxhall, even if it is the same exhaust, there are different procedures to follow to ensure the component is properly fitted. Sure you can probably find an dodgy mechanic, who'll make a guess, and your car will run like a badly managed copy of Windows XP from then on.

Don't get me wrong I use one PC with a GNU/Linux distro, and a downloaded copy of Mozilla-Firefox, and Mozilla-thunderbird, rather than installed from packages. But that in because it is scheduled for replacing and it was a quick and dirty hack to save upgrading it to a supported version, as a result the software doesn't integrate as nicely with the desktop. But m

Re:Wrong... This is why open source is so great!

[doubledoh]

You must understand, my frustration arises from the huge disparities between Linux distros. I don't care if a package manager handles all the installs (like synaptic), but I would like there to be ONE file type or format for ALL distros to use to install and manage programs. I've been using Ubuntu (just upgraded to 5.10) and the hell I had to go through to get java 1.5 to work (and properly managed by the package manager) was absurd. Other distributions...made installing java very easy (or automatic). The same goes for my ATI card (I'll never buy ATI again by the way)...on one partition with another distro, my 3D works beautifully, but with Ubuntu, I had to install drivers (and try about a dozen "how-to's") and I still don't have it working. With windows, it always works exactly the same way (download catalyst drivers, double-click, hit install, ok, ok, ok).

My point is this: I want there to be ONE universal "install" file that all Linux distros can download (and install/manage however they want) without forcing people to worry which distro they have. If the software creators are able to make different files for different distros (if they are thoughtful), surely all the distros can collaborate on a tool that automates the differentiation at install time rather than at download time. Not every piece of software can be added to ever distro's repository...but I think it IS possible to have one type of file available on the developer's website that CAN work on all distros.

I just want Linux to be as easy as it is secure so that more people are inclined to use it without doubts or hesitation (or confusion and frustration).

Gaim too focused on looking like AIM

[astralbat]

I use MSN Messenger while at work and Gaim at home 100% of the time. It's very annoying when someone tries to nudge you or send you a wink and you have to make that horrible excuse. It's not a good thing, especially when I'm trying to trumpet the Linux platform.

Gaim's tabbed interface IS great. There are many things about Gaim thats great, but it's interface is too much like AIM and there are a couple of annoyances such as: 1. You can't see your own picture in the chat window. You have to go through two dialogues before you can preview/change it! 2. Avartars/Icons belong on the left of the contact list - not the right where someone's long MSN name forces it off view with a scrollbar.

I know I should be making these comments on the Gaim bug/feedback forums, but I know for a fact many of these requests get ignored. I actually think the fonts look nice in Gaim, despite what someone else said on here during the previous IM topic.

It just may take a while to convince developers to implement the 'annoying' MSN features so that the rest of the users out there can come on board.

Re:Gaim too focused on looking like AIM

[FuzzyBad-Mofo]

Wow, I use GAIM and/or AIM everyday at work, and this is the first time I've every heard of "nudge" or "wink". The only feature I really miss in GAIM is the ability to exchange files with AIM users. If that worked properly, I could promote GAIM to all my co-workers without hesitation.

Re:Gaim too focused on looking like AIM

[NeuralAbyss]

Why implement the 'annoying' features? I'm sure many out there would share the same view as I.. scrap the bullshit features, and focus on the IM. Who needs graphical smileys, "winks", "nudges" etc etc.?

A client that doesn't appeal to the emo 14 year old teenagers is a good thing, IMHO.

Now, if only we could block AOL from the rest of the net...

Linux is mad

[Anonymous Coward]

mmkey!

because... Linux is bad... mmkey

Re:blah blah blah IM is just an IRC ripoff blah bl

[tarp]

Yes, so whenever you sign off, other people can sign on with your screen name and pose as you. And so channel thieves with botnets can takeover your channels. On the other hand, you could deal with NickServ and ChanServ. IRC is great for chatting with geeks throughout the world. But to talk to normal people, instant messaging is the way to go. I don't expect my girlfriend, or, hell, most of my friends for that matter, to sign onto something as complex as IRC whenever they want to send me a message to see what time I'm coming over or what the professor said about existentialism.

Appearances ARE everything

[SpasticThinker]

What it comes down to, for the majority of the population, is how good does it look?

When I am looking for a product or service which I am fundamentally unsure about, I will generally buy what "looks" the best. You know what I'm talking about - few people are swayed by those horrible cheap TV commercials for used cars or whatever, but a well put together commercial, looking spiffy, will at least pique your interest in the product.

I think the same is true of computers, and computer apps. For those who are not familiar with what certain features do, or mean, it comes down to how nice it looks.

To communicate with someone online, I don't need smileys and "nudges" and other nonsense, but that's not the point. Despite their lack of functionality, people will be swayed towards products that will give them the "glitz".

Re:Appearances ARE everything

[arevos]

Good point; but I don't think Linux has a problem with looks. MSN messenger looks as ugly as sin, has a cluttered interface and annoying adverts lodged in the client. Kopete, on the other hand, is clean, simple, and looks a hell of a lot nicer.

My onle gripe about gaim

[karn096]

Is lack of video chat support through aim, or any other IM protocol. Also another long standing problem was an inability to actually transfer files under the AIM protocol, which finally seems to be fixed in the last 2 or 3 releases. That was driving me insane. Other than that I love it, and have converted lots of people to using gaim.

Or another question would be...

[drgonzo59]

Why aren't you using the Debian package manager on a distro that supports it?
I have been using Ubuntu for the last year and love it. No more RPM hell like in Mandriva before.
I did try SuSE for a short while and liked it, but RPMs will always be RPMs.

You don't need a jabber server with AIM transport!

[Anonymous Coward]

You can use *any* jabber server, and then register on the AIM transport on another one.

Editors? Editors???!!

[Eil]

From TFA:

What happens when the corporation anybody seems to love to hate, namely Microsoft, release a killer app and of makes it free (as in dollars), but, of course, keeps its source jealously closed? And worse than that, use it to maintain a strong lock-in to the Windows platform?

OSNews: We don't need no stinkin' editors!

Some other stuff...

[JohnnyBigodes]

[warning: rant about MSN support only, I leave the other protocols for someone else]

Before one that looks good, we need an MSN client that has file transfers working *always*. Even Gaim has sketchy support at best. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. There are lots of technical explanations for that and I know quite a few of them myself, but the bottom line is that if you use Microsoft's MSN client, file transfers always work, fast or slow.

Add to that the fact that in *every* MSN client messages get lost, many times without notification, and you can see a big problem just right there. Disclaimer: I use Trillian because I totally hate the normal MSN client interface, but sometimes I get peeved. Gaim's interface is clunky and ugly at best (used that for a while too).

But ironically, the reason why I can't get people to switch off the regular MSN client is simple: they can't put custom backgrounds, they can't put silly icons, sounds, all that stupid shit. I for one can't fathom just WHY people like that so much, but that's the cold hard reality. No support for those stupid things = no switching apps.

Article confuses age gap with generation gap

[try_anything]

We aren't going to lose the next generation of kids just because they're into a bunch of stupid kid things like shaking IM windows, sending Flash animations, and having cool avatars. Honestly, do you think they're still going to be doing those things when they grow up?

Linux IM clients should integrate the features that their current users find useful and not worry that today's teenagers will be just as frivolous, shallow, and glitz-oriented when they're 25 as they are now at 15. Adults have been fretting about that prospect for thousands of years, and it hasn't happened yet.

MSN Messenger - Gateway to computer problems

[Cyphertube]

This is just my experience, but pretty much every system I've dealt with that had MSN Messenger on it was eventually completely riddled with viruses and spyware. Because of that risk, I eliminated it from my system.

Yeah, I know it's popular with European kids. My parents have exchange students every year, and they ALL want the latest greatest features. That is until the computer stops working.

I don't know if anyone has connected the latest growth of phishing scams with European teenagers using MSN, but I know it is exceptionally popular in Spain, which has just recently seen a spike in phishing attempts.

I wouldn't worry about falling behind. Eventually advertisers will realise that people who use such crap are likely to become identity theft victims and not be able to buy anything. Of course, the ones who aren't yet victims are also exceptionally gullible, so then again, cheapcrap.com may have use for advertising there.

I personally like the nifty extra features, mind you. I just think they should be made with some level of compatibility for those of use who don't want whizbang graphics and silly sounds going off while we're trying to get some coding done.

Re:After read TFA...

[Trelane]

s an example my flatmate he is making his PhD and has some buisness going in Mexico. He use to get into MSN Messenger every other night and video conference with some people back there to discuss work.

Does he have a special agreement to conduct business via MSN Messenger? Because it's against the Terms of Service if he doesn't. (section 1, first paragraph).

Additionally, he should track what Microsoft does and doesn't do with is "personal information," as outlined in Section 5: quoth the 'Soft:

If you are using MSN-branded software with the Service, please see the MSN Privacy Statement http://privacy.msn.com/ for notices about how we collect and use your information. If you are using any other software with the Service, please see the .NET Messenger Service Privacy Statement at http://www.microsoft.com/windows/messenger/privacy policy.asp for notices about how we collect and use your information.

We consider your use of the Service, including the content of your communications, to be private. We do not routinely monitor your communications or disclose information about your communications to anyone. However, we may monitor your communications and disclose information about you, including the content of your communications, if we consider it necessary to: (1) comply with the law or to respond to legal process; (2) ensure your compliance with this contract; or (3) protect the rights, property, or interests of Microsoft, its employees, its customers, or the public.

In particular, "(3)pretect[ing] the rights, property, or interest of Microsoft" leaves a lot of wiggle room for listening to fresh ideas coming across their pipes (unlike AOL, who specifically state that whatever you type is theirs!).

Finally, he should continually check the Terms of Service; they "may change this contract at any time. You must review this contract on a regular basis." (Section 2). So what they say now isn't necessarily what they'll be saying later. Remember also that, like any business, it's nothing personal, just business. Their goal isn't to make you happy; it's to make money. If people get happy, it tends to give them money, but so long as most people are happy, a few people can get screwed, particularly if they can wriggle out of it in the courts and the courts of public opinion.

And finally, one-click videoconvferencing systems exist for Linux. For example, skype runs on Linux (again, check the ToS!), and also Gnome Meeting, amongst others.

IM clients aren't just weak in Linux....

[King_TJ]

The overall problem is, IM clients are weak and lacking in features for *all* non-Windows platforms! While I don't think I ever really felt a need for the ability to "nudge" the window of the person I'm chatting with or to shoot annoying Flash animations over to their screen - I *do* expect such things as basic voice or webcam conferencing ability to work. Just last week, I was on my Mac using OS X and the Adium chat client (which seems to generally be agreed upon as the best multi-protocol IM client available for Mac OS X at this time), and I wasn't able to view another person's webcam they had running via Yahoo chat. I shut down Adium and ran Yahoo Messenger for OS X, and was at least able to see their webcam that way, but the software was prone to crashing and shutting down at random, and it refused to enable my iSight camera for more than a fraction of a second before displaying it as "stopped" again. After some google searching, I discovered a *lot* of OS X users with the same problems, and an overall complaint that Yahoo seemed to be abandonning support for the Mac version of their client. (A number of people called in to tech. support and got the cold shoulder from Yahoo on these issues, as well as some other ones like security settings not really working right when you tell Yahoo IM you only want specific people to be able to view your webcam.)

Doing some more searching, I saw where several of the OS X IM clients (such as "Fire") had FAQ files posted to their web sites, and there were *always* questions like "When do you plan to start supporting video conferencing and webcams?" - and the answers were all about the same. "No support is planned at this time, although we're keeping an eye on several open source projects that are trying to reverse engineer the protocols used for them."

So much of this appears to be caused by the authors of the major Windows IM clients using proprietary protocols for the "extras" and then not caring if anyone else can figure out how to make them work on 3rd. party clients. Since you're not likely to see Yahoo or ICQ or anyone else putting equal effort into developing native Macintosh or Linux or BSD or other such clients, we're always left hanging out to dry, to an extent, for not using Windows.

Young people don't use Linux?

[Ummu]

Fine, I'm 15 and I use linux. I don't mind gaim's interface. However, I know _alot_ of people who will hate it, but luckily, they don't use anything but windows!

Linux Instant Messagers

[lucutis]

I've been using gaim for years now, and I like it. I've been trying to "convert" my oldest daughter to Linux (she's 12). The only "real" problem I see for her is a few windows games (sims2, AOM, etc) play better under windows then Linux. Just this last weekend, I installed Linux (SUSE 10) "dual boot" on her PC, yes.... against her wishes. And spent a few hours with her showing a lot of the programs and setting up and configuring everything with her. She really likes Amarok, she thought it was the coolest thing. Esp when I showed her the Wikipedia stuff. The only problem I really had was when I introduced her to gaim... To me everything worked as it should, but there's a "new" trend with 11-14 yr olds... They make their user id's super long. And it wasn't showing up the way it should have. The next comment out of her mouth was that Linux sucks.... grrrrr She's already up todate on the pro's of Linux over windows. But her issue's are a "little silly" when it comes to gaim. But with the amount of time young people or just people in general spend on-line these days it be nice to have Linux IM's on par or ahead of our cousin OS's...... Lucutis.

This is why Linux isn't more popular....

[simetra]

But, I seem never to be able to upgrade gaim, at least not easily. I always have to do an rpm upgrade with the Force option because of "conflicts" with other gaim packages.

This is exactly why Linux is not a real threat to Windows. With Windows, you can download an installation file and know it'll install on any Windows box without any problem. With Linux, you get all sorts of package dependency crap that is simply unacceptable to real users. A typical installation of damn near anything on Linux goes something like this:

Ok... installing. Whoops! Need library Zippidy-doo-dah version 2.4.032.xgp.201. Okay, hmmm, where do I find that on the internet... Okay, there... installing this now.... Whoops! Zippidy-doo-dah version 2.4.032.xgp.201 requires Libiddy_Dibbity_Doo.lib version 12.824... okay... where do I find this on the internet...Hmmm... Okay, got it... installing.... Whoops! Libiddy_Dibbity_Doo.lib version 12.824 requires Bippy_Skippy.lib version 9.29.29399382721! Damn it... wheredo I find this on the internet... hmmm... huh.... hmmm..... Crap! I can't find it.

  and etc., etc., etc.,

Really, until the entire packaging mayhem is sorted out, Linux will remain second-rate as a desktop gui-os. Oh, but try Distribution SuperDooper2000 you say... well, great, if all you do is run apps that come pre-installed and never change anything, add programs, etc., but really, how realistic is that? It's not. Linux needs a real, working, practical application structure.

Re:This is why Linux isn't more popular....

[cayenne8]

"With Linux, you get all sorts of package dependency crap this is simply unacceptable to real users."

Ok...hate to feed the trolls here...but, if you use a non-RPM based distro, this is no problem, and there are plenty of them out there. I use Gentoo..works like a charm:

emerge gaim

And voila...it takes care of all the dependencies, etc....and soon, is up and running.

Maybe our definitions of 'real users' differ?

Re:This is why Linux isn't more popular....

[thisislee]

This has been exactly my experience with Linux. I'm a relatively advanced Windows user and a decent programmer, but I have a lot of trouble wrapping my head around simple tasks like installing programs with dependency issues. I generally haven't had much trouble finding the necessary rpms for dependencies, but get completely lost when the new package I need to fix a dependency issue conflicts with a different one I added for the last dependency issue. I want to like linux, but really can't get comfortable enough to be a real user. The operating itself is great and I love using already installed programs(or ones I managed to install), but managing programs kills me. This and harware support, which is not only the fault of linux but the manufacturers who don't write drivers, will keep average windows users from switching. In its current state I can't see my parents or most people I know using Linux.

Re:This is why Linux isn't more popular....

[halfelven]

I agree that on Windows it's still a lot easier to install new applications. But still, Linux has come a long ways now.
Many distributions use package managers to install/remove/upgrade software; in order to solve inter-package dependencies, most of these distributions use meta-applications that run on top of the package managers.
E.g., on Fedora, rpm is the package manager, and yum is the meta-app that runs on top of it. If you want to install, say, php-mysql, you just run:

yum install php-mysql

yum will go ahead, pull the php-mysql package from the Internet, figure out the dependencies, download the missing ones, figure their dependencies as well, and so on until all dependencies are solved. At the end, you're presented with a list of actions that yum will take ("I will install such-and-such packages and update such-and-such. OK? y/n")
You never even have to touch rpm per se - yum does that for you.

It's really pretty easy. No more dependency hell since yum and similar programs became more popular.

Re:This is why Linux isn't more popular....

[rbochan]

...With Windows, you can download an installation file and know it'll install on any Windows box without any problem. With Linux, you get all sorts of package dependency crap that is simply unacceptable to real users...

Hardly, unless the winbox is totally unsecured, as most are out of the box, unfortunately - and that's why spyware/worms/viruses run so rampant. If the winbox has been setup for security, having seperate user/admin accounts (as should be the case) it's:

Find and download $PROGRAM to install
Damn, it's in "compressed" format
Go find $DECOMPRESSOR and download
Scan $DECOMPRESSOR for viruses
Install $DECOMPRESSOR
Crap, I'm not admin
Log in as admin
Install $DECOMPRESSOR
Reboot
Log in
Scan $PROGRAM for viruses
Decompress $PROGRAM
Doubleclick exe/msi installer
Crap, I'm not admin
Log in as admin
Doubleclick exe/msi installer
Click "Next" to continue
Accept 27 page EULA
Click "Next" to continue
Confirm "install type", full/minimal/custom
Click "Next" to continue
Confirm/alter install path
Click "Next" to continue
Do you want a program group created? y/n
Click "Next" to continue
Do you want a desktop icon created? y/n
Click "Next" to continue
Watch progress bar...
Click "Next" to continue
Do you want to read the README.txt now? y/n
Click "Next" to continue
Do you want to create a desktop shortcut? y/n
Click "Next" to continue
Do you want to run the internet updater? y/n
If Y, click "Next" to continue to repeat previous instructions, if N, then click "Next" to continue
$PROGRAM has been installed to $PATHBLAHBLAH, please register, would you like to do so now? y/n
Click "Next" to continue
Installation complete, Click "Exit" to finish
You must reboot for changes to take effect, do you want to reboot now? Reboot/Cancel
Reboot
Log in
Click on desktop icon that was created even though 'No' was answered for that question
Use $PROGRAM

So that's less difficult than:

Click on the menu
Synaptic [insert yast, urmpi, whatever]
Enter root pass
Find $PROGRAM
Install $PROGRAM
Close Synaptic
Use $PROGRAM

Um... ok.

Re:This is why Linux isn't more popular....

[halfelven]

See my reply to the parent post. The "dependency hell" is not a problem anymore. Please refer to any modern distribution (and read my reply for an example).

Re:This is why Linux isn't more popular....

[nlinecomputers]

Well not to feed the RPM bashing troll :-) , not all RPM based distros are unable to handle dependency errors. I use Suse(YaST) and Mandriva(urpmi) and both will install missing packages just as easy as Gentoo does. Apt-get can be run on both Debian and RPM based distros and it too handles things just as nicely.

And you ignored the grandparent's point about a package that isn't in your distro. If the package anit a part of gentoo you are out hunting for dependency tarballs like the rest of us.

Re:This is why Linux isn't more popular....

[joschm0]

With Windows, you can download an installation file and know it'll install on any Windows box without any problem.

Yea, right. Just like how I installed Service Pack 2 and now my PC refuses to even boot.

Re:This is why Linux isn't more popular....

[croddy]

those dependencies do, of course, exist in windows. the methods for "handling" them are just much cruder than with APT or Portage.

generally, there are two methods that the "executable installer" model uses to deal with library dependencies: 1) the library's already there? just overwrite it, we're the only app in the universe! or 2) just stuff it all in a directory somewhere. we'll keep our own private copy of every library -- nothing says "security" like 90 slightly different copies of zlib!

people who are still talking about "RPM dependency hell" or "featureless Gaim" are living 2 years in the past. if they don't like Linux... fine, don't use it. but don't bother me with a bunch of stories from 30 versions ago about how you couldn't get it working.

Re:This is why Linux isn't more popular....

[tajmorton]

Autopackage

Re:This is why Linux isn't more popular....

[rhendershot]

...With Windows, you can download an installation file and know it'll install on any Windows box without any problem. With Linux, you get all sorts of package dependency crap that is simply unacceptable to real users...

oh yeah, it's sure to install on any windows. Well, any that's not thunked like win95/98/ME. Oh wait....

oh yeah, it's sure to install to the right kind of Windows, and it will certainly run. And no other program that shares its DLLs will have any problem at all.... oh wait...

Click on desktop icon that was created even though 'No' was answered for that question
Use $PROGRAM

Dismiss runtime exception dialog

GP, guess Windows installation isn't so clean and simple either, hmmmmm????

Re:This is why Linux isn't more popular....

[killjoe]

LOL so you are saying that installing things on windows always works smoothly? IT never crashes your system or leaves your computer in an unusable state? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

That's rich man.

Oh and I NEVER have the problems you are talking about, maybe that's because I use ubuntu instead of rolling my own distribution like you did. People like you and beginners should never roll their own distributions, there are lots of distros out there with great package management.

Re:This is why Linux isn't more popular....

[heson]

1.> rpm -U http://dl.atrpms.net/all/atrpms-kickstart-28-1.rhf c4.at.i386.rpm 2.> apt-get uptate && apt-get dist-upgrade 3.> apt-get install bitlbee irssi 4. ??? 5. Profit! (sorry about any mistakes in this attempt at karma whoring)

Re:This is why Linux isn't more popular....

[kinkos]

# emerge gaim

It's all in the package management, my friend. The Windows version is a static version (IIRC) that has all the libraries built in. The Linux versions use libraries on your machine through dynamic linking which reduces the size of individual packages at the cost of increasing a few dependancies.

Before you knock an operating system, check out the breadth before you start talking. You wouldn't shout "ride motorcycles" because your pinto broke down every 5000 miles, now would you?

Re:This is why Linux isn't more popular....

[Anonymous Coward]

This is exactly why Linux is not a real threat to Windows. With Windows, you can download an installation file and know it'll install on any Windows box without any problem.

I could have sworn I downloaded something just the other day, only to get a rude error message about how it wouldn't work on Windows 2000. Guess I must have just imagined it, huh?

Re:This is why Linux isn't more popular....

[XchristX]

How'd this moron get modded "insightful" anyway??? Ever try to 'really' install stuff on windoze (not just the usual IM crap). There's dependencies there too (.NET framework, etc). Not to mention you pay $$$ for some hi-fallutin' software in windoze & it BSOD's your computer.

The truth is that the many advantages offerred by Linux (no virus hassles, built-in firewall, less bloated, more drivers built into the module trees of precompiled kernels of most distros, seamless support for OSS, automatic package dependency downloading/installing, fully customizable GUI's and Desktops etc) compensate for the few pointy clickys that linux doesn't have.

If you just want to use your computer for standard everyday tasks, most distros come with bundled packages for those things, and you shouldn't have to do anything,

Re:This is why Linux isn't more popular....

[Terrasque]

Ok, this is always a big problem for former windows users. Mostly because they do it all wrong.

Their usual response is "Well, find the software on internet, download (after guessing format), try to install.." WHAM - wrong.

Use Distro's Package Manager. This is a hard part for windowsers. I dunno why. Maybe because they're too set in the windows way, or maybe because they can't understand that you use a local application to install programs from a remote location (in this case, the internet). Or maybe they think that's for "toy uses", for total idiots to drool through, and only have 2-3 good programs. Well..

I've used linux for several years, and are comfortable doing installs from source and all that, and on my current linux install I got 3 things that aint in the package manager. That's Java (the linux equivalent of a zip file (with eula..) that you have to copy to the right places and symlink, Azureus (unzip, click, it runs), and Opera. Comes in deb format. Download, install with dpkg -i (and maybe apt-get install the qt3 dep if not already installed). And believe me, my start menu is 5x as large as my windows install (way too easy installing apps = infinity+1 apps installed).

The fun part is, people like grandparent seem to put their fingers in their ears and scream "LALALA IM NOT LISTENING" when someone point this out to them. It's almost like they have a bias or something. Strange, no?

Re:This is why Linux isn't more popular....

[thisislee]

thanks for the info! Any specific package manager better than others? yum? apt-get? Or is that just going to be specific to the distro?

Re:This is why Linux isn't more popular....

[Anonymous Coward]

emerge gaim

Yeah, because waiting while an app and all its dependencies compile is *sooo* user friendly. Listen fuckhead, RPM is a packaging format. If you use a package repo which has your package... your problems are over. This is where Debian wins big -- note: this is not .debs winning over .rpm -- because it has an enormous package repo. Fedora, for example, has freshrpms, dag, dries and fedora extras... good repos but not on the same scale as Debian.

Re:This is why Linux isn't more popular....

[Terrasque]

I personally prefer apt, since it's the system I know the most and have had the least problems with, and yum was a dog earlier (fedora core 1 & 2), but have heard that it's been improved a lot lately.

Generally, every distro have its standard way, some borrow from others (mostly apt), and some make their own. (fedora have yum, mandriva urpm, gentoo emerge, arch have pacman IIRC..) Just read up on your distro of choice and find out what package manager it use, and learn it.

Check http://www.debian.org/distrib/packages for a list of packages avaliable for the debian distribution. Unstable had over 14.000 packages (including meta-packages and differently compiled versions of same program) last time I checked.

Nitpick

[IGnatius T Foobar]

There is no such word as "messenging."

The noun describing the delivery mechanism is "messenger." The verb describing its activity is "messaging."

MSN lockout?

[lemaymd]

I'm not exactly sure if you're referring to an actual Gaim lockout by MSN, but anyway... Remember the Trillian/AOL/Yahoo! wars? Seems like MSN has been the most open so far if my memory isn't missing any incidents. With that being said, I still hope Jabber prevails, since it is the most open protocol I've seen thus far.

I got off Linux IMs precisely for this reason

[sheepoo]

The following applies to either GAIM or KOPETE: No Video chat support No Audio Support(whatever there is,it is very flaky) Extremely poor UI design

You Sir Are Gay

[riiiichanchan]

eom

Re:blah blah blah IM is just an IRC ripoff blah bl

[torpor]

first of all, whether or not your girlfriend can use it is a client issue. its bone-dead simple to set up an IRC client as easy to use as an IM one.

second of all, the issue of whether or not someone can get online with your ID can be solved without resorting to complete corporate takeover of the protocol. ChanServ and NickServ are one way; ID-key exchange in the IRC server and client setup process are another. IRC need not be technologically hijacked on that basis alone.

this is one of those 'programmer scratches' that came up, with the whole IM phenom, because it was easier to just 'move on' than try to work on someone elses code. its a rampant problem with software. the not-invented-here/re-write-it-all-to-bloat problem is legit. the only way to bring it under control is better-educated users ..

Why is there no ICQ love?

[Marc_Hawke]

I still concider ICQ the gold standard of IM Clients. It's basically a different philosophy. More like 'mini-email' than the AIM standard of 'throw away online communication.'

The main differences:

1. ICQ (until recently) defaults to 'single' window mode. This means that you read in a window, push reply, and it opens a 'send' window. Your screen isn't stolen by a persitant 'chat history' window, and everything is nicely hidden unless you're actively using it.

2. ICQ defaults to multi-line messages. Most of the others act like IRC in that Enter 'sends' the message instead of just making a new-line. I vastly prefer the formatting options in ICQ. (Yes, I'm aware this can be adjusted on other clients. I'm talking about a paradigm here.)

3. Offline messages. Whenever I use the other networks (MSN, AIM) I'm horrified that I can't send a message to 'wait' for then next time a user logs in. ICQ has two modes for this. It can send the message and deliver it later (regardless of your online status), or it can 'hold' the message and deliver it when both parties are online. Some people feel that is outside the scope of an IM service, but it's a 'must have' feature for me.

4. And finally a 'cosmetic' difference. ICQ in all their iterations have been careful to keep the 'tab-space' method of sending the file. This is a very simple thing to include, just make the 'send' button next on the widget tab order. I understand 'tab-space' doesn't mean much to people who aren't ICQ veterans, but since it's a transparent feature, there's no reason not to have it.

Anyway...I've often concidered moving to a 'multi-network' IM client. However, I've found the other networks to be deficient when compared to the ICQ 'mini-email' paradigm, so I've never been able to make the switch.

Re:Why is there no ICQ love?

[Anonymous Coward]

how does that fits in with the topic Linux Instant Messengers?

Unlike Yahoo or even Skype (which can work as an IM),
Mirabilis could never be really arsed to port its client to native Linux.

Screw that piece of annoying Uh-oh shite; am glad I havent used it in decades.

Re:Why is there no ICQ love?

[Marc_Hawke]

It fits in with, "You should design your Linux Instant Messenger to have the same superior 'mini-email' paradigm that ICQ uses, isntead of the inferior AIM method of 'personal IRC channels'.

In a story that's about making Linux IM better, suggestions of 'better ways' are not irrelevant.

Re:Why is there no ICQ love?

[Anonymous Coward]

it is pretty irrelevant coming from someone that hardly ever boots into Linux.

arent you aware of the many ICQ clones on Linux?
and that uses the "mini-email" feature

so what is your post about then?
you are not karma-whoring are you??

Personally

[thesnarky1]

I don't like the flashyness (no pun intended, RTFA if you don't get the pun). I *hate* MSN with a passion, yet need it for some people I interact with on a daily basis. I always use GAIM for this. There is no way I want someone on another system screwing with my desktop and making it shake (yes, I know its only one window, but still). I am quite happy with text only, and, surprisingly, so are most of my friends at college. That's right, young people, non-CS majors, heck most not even computer savvy, using GAIM and enjoying it. It saves them trouble, not having to have 4 messenger clients, time, not having to START 4 clients on an already slow windows system, and RAM, see above. Not only that, but it stops the darn ads. I've only had one person "not like it" so far, and that was because the file transfer screwed up. I gave them free ftp programs, and that worked too... ahh the magic of open source. I guess what I'm saying is, I'm sure there are a lot of 13 year olds who want those bells and whistles, but for those of us who are sane, and just want to be able to talk to someone in peace, I'll take my text-only any day of the week.

Whiteboarding

[Jamie Lokier]

I use Gaim with MSN (and Yahoo and...) too, on Linux.
My colleage uses Gaim on Windows, a lot, so it must be quite acceptable there.

Before this article, I've noticed a number of UI deficiences, and things that obviously don't work right with Gaim on MSN (like how do you set yourself to show as "Busy" on other people's clients, without going through each individual account (I have 7) to set the away message? how do you move a buddy _out_ of a subtree in the contacts list, without breaking and re-adding the buddy?)

The article mentions whiteboarding... presumably where you can write and draw on a shared surface.

I've never used whiteboarding software, but I've imagined it would be very useful in some of the business conversations I've had. That, and collaborative text editing. There have been times when I wish Gaim had the former feature especially.

Just to point out that the rant wasn't _just_ about non-business features, even though it was written that way.

-- Jamie

Re:Whiteboarding

[drew]

...how do you set yourself to show as "Busy" on other people's clients, without going through each individual account (I have 7) to set the away message?

is "Tools -> Away -> Set All Away"(*) not what you are looking for?

(*) Also available through the "Away" button on the bottom of the buddy list.

Re:Whiteboarding

[Godeke]

Yes, I can see some features being useful (whiteboarding for one *is* a nice business feature) but my point was that GAIM is a decent workhorse that I was able to customize to my taste (I use it on Linux as well) without being distacted by all the spinny shiny nonsense that the mainstream clients have become.

The one "Summer of Code" project I was following was the GAIM collaborative code editor: anyone know what happened to that plug in? (Now that I think about it... *that* is what makes GAIM a nice business IM: I can control what garbage gets thrown into the mix.)

Re:Whiteboarding

[Jamie Lokier]

Don't know anything about the Summer Of Code project, but you might find Gobby interesting.

-- Jamie

Re:Whiteboarding

[Jamie Lokier]

Alas, your suggestion doesn't work.

...how do you set yourself to show as "Busy" on other people's clients, without going through each individual account (I have 7) to set the away message?

is "Tools -> Away -> Set All Away"(*) not what you are looking for?

Unfortunately, regardless of which away message is picked under Set All Away, all my MSN contacts will see is "Away From Computer". If I'm at the computer but busy, that is very misleading.

There is an option to set the away message for a single account, and that does work with MSN. So, if I want to appear as "Busy", I have to go through each of my MSN accounts individually and set them to be away in that state.

Obviously, Gaim should have a facility for setting which protocol-specific status is associated with a Set All Away message, or even simpler, if you Set All Away to a message like "Busy" which exactly matches a status supported by each protocol, it should use that.

But it doesn't, and I'm using the latest version.

Old days

[jbeaupre]

I got a little misty eyed remembering talk and write too. Back before the internet became a crowded and you actually knew a percentage of the people using it. We used talk more than email. Write was for when you wanted to scare people.

I'll tell you one thing Gaim doesn't do...

[advocate_one]

it doesn't infest your machine like MSN can... my daughter's friends machines are constantly being infected with worms travelling via the IM interface... her machine remains infection free... and she loves that because her machine is the one that's guaranteed to actually be up.

A Lame Gaim Claim-Motivation.

[Anonymous Coward]

"What's worrying is not that gaim is such a primitive tool but that its developers are pretty pleased with it. Where's the ambition to implement some cool stuff? Where's the ambition to go beyond what microsoft is doing? This total lack of ambition to improve anything on the linux desktop is what's keeping it back, not the competition (or lack thereoff) from microsoft."

The disadvantage of the bazaar model compared to the cathedral model is motivation. The only motivation in the bazaar model is itches, and the disincentives are greater. e.g. time pressures, financial pressures. The motivation in the cathedral model is not only itches for the parts one enjoys, but money for the parts no one enjoys. Plus money can more easily overcome the time pressure by bring on needed personnel, which the bazaar model has to beg for.

Kopete has a bad UI?

[Doctor Crumb]

Not sure what version of Kopete he's using, but anything from the past year or so is pretty as can be and incredibly useable, and getting moreso with each release. It has very nice support for MSN avatars, fully customisable notifications, meta-contacts, tabbed chat... and they fixed up all of the bugs that made it hard to use quite a while ago. I agree that the file transfers and webcam capabilities aren't there, but that's not the UI, those are extras.

Re:Kopete has a bad UI?

[tommykat]

Kopete is what I miss most when I am on a Windows box. I prefer it much more over MSN 7.0. It even has now-playing and webcam support in the latest SVN. Oh, and it isn't an ugly as hell eye-sore. I have heard even 'normal users' complaining about the bloat of MSN. Anyone who thinks that IM on Linux is of poor quality just hasn't got the facts right.

So?

[Mad Ogre]

Linux can not use the Smily Face Spyware? I'm fine with that.

The Vicious Linux Circle

[RomulusNR]

Geeks code Linux. Geeks don't understand non-geeks, so they write Linux for other geeks. So only geeks (like me) run Linux, and non-geeks don't understand Linux, so they don't run Linux.

When Linux gets out of its defensive DIY/techie ivory tower, more non-geeks will use it. Yes, you can still have all the power under the hood and put a cherry-red finish on top, and the power will be there when you're ready to use it, but not frighten you when you're not.

And if this comment is redundant, well, guess what, the article was redundant as well.

gaim has it's ups and downs

[Phil Urich]

Actually, I became rather enamoured with gaim after I was running Knoppix for a month (long story), and it was one of my bigger incentives to actually get around to installing a distro of Linux. Unfortunately, I seem to have mucked up something and I keep getting problems with su and sudo, the kinds that make it pretty hard to actually install the gtk+ libraries that one needs to get gaim to actually compile . . . I suppose it wouldn't have been a problem if I hadn't gone with Kubuntu 5.10 preview, indeed just going with pure Ubuntu probably would have been far smoother (there were various other problems), but I feel reluctant to give up KDE! Maybe I should just repent and embrace gnome.

Whatever, point is that I can certainly nod my head to problems with gaim, though mine were with installing instead of upgrading, but just consider that an addition to the same body of objections. On the other hand, though yeah there are some things that gaim can't do, I would firstly second parent's example of how gaim can actually be much simpler for the common user (the example of the parents--hmm, conflict of terms here), and honestly, don't anyone try to argue that simplicity doesn't affect the average young user as well. One of the reasons so many younger people use MSN is 'cause, hell, they don't even have to install it at first for the most part, and then it beats them over the head with links to download updates and everything. The "tech-savvy" generation isn't actually that tech-savvy, they're just really used to memorizing instructions without understanding them, so they figure out how these IM clients work in very linear fashions.

And TFA. Sheesh. In my experience gaim worked great with pictures, and surprisingly flawlessly with file transfers (which trumps Trillian, which seems to be off-and-on depending on the update and the specific protocol). And why complain about this lack of "modern tools" keeping gaim in "1999-2000", when things like gaim-vv being merged with the main gaim codebase are happening? TFA sounds like whining to me, and parent is the only one that seems to have good objections to linux IM clients that I've seen today.

Re:gaim has it's ups and downs

[halfelven]

why complain about this lack of "modern tools" keeping gaim in "1999-2000", when things like gaim-vv being merged with the main gaim codebase are happening?

Um, because it didn't happen yet, and there's no assurance that it will actually happen?
The article was written at the present tense, not the future.

Gaim is a wonderful Text Client. GnomeMeeting...

[SumDog]

I've been using Gaim proudly for years! I also had a roommate that hated Gaim and would use Trillian if they had a Linux version.

Gaim is very good at what it does. If you want to IM text messages, it has you covered. It has spell check, buddy pounce, tabbed IM windows, HTML logs, speech synthesis (via Festival plug-in), etc. For a text chat client, it does very very well, much better than MSN, Yahoo and AIM.

No as far as some of the nicer features. File transfers? They do work...sometimes...yea...could you e-mail that to me instead?

Audio chat would be nice and so would video, but those seem like they'll be a while.

And to be honest, why do you need your IM program to do video/audio? A lot of voice/video integration in IM clients sucks anyway. The video is choppy, occasionally you'll get voice echos, etc.

For people who want to voice chat, there are solutions. GnomeMeeting is an excellent program and works very well with Netmeeting. I use to use it all the time, before the novelty of video chat wore off.

IMs are nice because you can carry on a conversation with many people at the same time, or while watching a movie. And for that Gaim does very well for what it is, and dare I say even better than any commercially available chat program including Trillian.

Advertisers Are Monkeys!!!!@#$!@#$!@#$

[Anonymous Coward]

ooh ooh

Meebo

[vivarin]

http://www.mbeebo.com/

Very slick AJAX chat interface to popular chat services.

Works fine in Firefox

Gaim interfaze is *ugly*

[xDCDx]

Gaim, while works great and has many features, is horribly ugly on Windows XP, with the new appearance also, but specially so with the classic Windows 2000 visual style. This ugliness makes me feel bad when using it, feeling that I don't get when I use Skype and/or Google Talk, both with [IMO] great interfaces (but these two programs are completely useless outside their small niches). Trillian and Miranda interfazes do not feel completely right either, but they do not feel as bad as Gaim. MSN interfaze is so-so also, but again better than Gaim, except for the really annoying advertisements it shows.

While Gaim running on Gnome 2.12 looks considerably better than in Windows, I still think that the look and feel of all its windows and option dialogs is way suboptimal. I am not an interfaze designer, and I have not stopped to think what exactly makes me feel that an interfaze is bad or good, so I do not know how to improve Gaim's one specifically.

For the shake of contrast, Firefox would be an example that does not have this problem, as the interfaze is delightful both in Windows XP and in Gnome.

Re:Gaim interfaze is *ugly*

[caseih]

Gaim's WIMP theme (installed by default) seems to pick up all the theming cues from Windows XP just fine. Using the luna theme is looks pretty good. So while the look of the app is just fine, there are some "feel" issues that will never be resolved since GTK has its own set of feel policies. So I don't know what you are talking about with the windows 2000 visual style. Such a style hasn't been the default in 2 or 3 years.

the nice thing about open source is

[Uzik2]

If they don't like how it looks they're free to write their own better looking one.

i actually like MSN

[rayde]

the article goes into detail making fun of the new features of MSN 7, but I have only recently started using MSN, after many years of using AIM/Gaim/Trillian, and have been really reawakened to being excited about IM. I love the ability to easily create emoticons, have a seemingly robust webcam support, and just a nice interface in general.

Using MSN on gaim in Linux is just a joke in comparison. I don't forsee Microsoft releasing a nicely featured linux client anytime soon, but perhaps with Yahoo linking their network with MSN, we might see an upgrade to the tired linux version of Yahoo Messenger.

the best linux messengers?

[drew]

Considering that I use gaim full time even when I am using windows because it is so much superior to the "official" clients for each network (and while gaim is one of the better linux instant messengers, there are certainly several that are of comparable quality), I'm not sure that I see how "even the best Linux instant messenging software" could be considered "antiquated". If gaim is antiquated, what does that make AIM?

better call a whaaambulance

[hyperstation]

gaim is just fine. i *hate* all those cutesy additions that'll i'll get bombarded with on any windows IM. i *like* just plain old text. 15 year old girls do not use linux, so we don't need pretty little im clients that "nudge" people or send "winks".

at least IRC hasn't been "enhanced" like that...

Linux Instant Messengers

[kckman]

The MSN, Yahoo and AOL clients used on Mac and PC (Windows, OSX) offer more robust features than Linux counterparts do. If IM was the ONLY use for these clients, I would agree that Gaim or Kopete would suffice. However, this isn't the case. Link to Music, Blogs, WeatherChat etc. are used extensively as a sort of "portal" to other services offered by the IM provider. My SOLE reason for not completely dumping Windows is Yahoo Chat. Yes, please hold all flame and conflagration until the end of this post and bravely also Mod me +1 for having the courage to even mention this guilty pleasure. I use a Windows tool available at http://www.ytunnelpro.com/ that allows me to chat completely BOT and asshat free. Without some tool of that nature available in Linux, I am tied to Windows. And, yes I have enquired of the developer of the availability of a Linux client. Yahoo's Linux client is lightyears behind it's Windows and OSX cousins. With today's announcement that Microsoft and Yahoo have agreed to grant cross access to their IM, Yahoo has a window of opportunity here to correct this oversight and update their IM client tool. Suffice it to say that MSN's will never be availabile on Linux. But, the above announcement makes that point potentially moot.

Re:Linux Instant Messengers

[The MESMERIC]

whilst not the solution,
it is possible to have extra nows when interfacing Yahoo via Gaim-vv
You can see Video - but not send yet.
Apparently you can send and receive voice and video - pyChat.
But I couldnt get it to work on Fedora, yet - might have another go soon.

Hence, it is not impossible for one day, to have as much stuff as you have with the Windows counterpart.

Some ports like Skype are not wildly different from the Windows version; most stuff are still there.

So, I am sure Yahoo (and others) could if they really wanted produce an almost identical client in Linux.

But even offering a limited port and letting the protocol be open - its already a blessing
in a pretty much Microsoft-led, Anti-Linux environment which is the computer entertainment industry.

err...

[hitmark]

did someone check the age on this thing? its allmost a year old!

oh, and even tho one uses windows dont mean one have to use the messenger client.

miranda all the way, thank you and good night...

IM != IM-sp33k.

[Grendel Drago]

Not everyone who uses IM tools uses IM 'tard-speech. Too many do, though. I work at a helpdesk, and we use IM to escalate issues to coordinators and whatnot. It's easy to log in conversation form, it's lightweight (being able to do things quickly and easily is a big plus, and since we use "Slowtus Notes", email doesn't fit the bill)... it works really well for us, filling in the gap between phones (in which you steal all of someone's attention for a short time) and email (which can get filed and forgotten way too easy).

The coordinators do ask us "did u get the tkt?" and "can u review?", though. And I thought people only talked like that in school.

Re:IM != IM-sp33k.

[rsheridan6]

I wouldn't call using shorthand "tard-speech." This isn't formal writing, it saves time, and you know what they mean. 1f th3y st@rt wr1t1ng l13k th15, th@t5 d1ff3r3nt.

16 years old schoolgirls ?

[DrYak]

Most of them don't understand the needs of users, especially not when these users are 16 year old highschool girls.

16 years old highschool grils ? Now, with *THAT* you're sure to bring a lot of developpers in the OSS IM world !!!

What's worrying is not that gaim is such a primitive tool but that its developers are pretty pleased with it. Where's the ambition to implement some cool stuff? Where's the ambition to go beyond what microsoft is doing?

There, maybe ? (Summer of love with 16 years-old ?... No, wait. It's summer of code. Damn !)

(Ok, I must admit : as gaim mostly connects to either proprietary or standarised protocols, there's less room for improvement involving "c00l n3w flashy options")

But at the end of the day Microsoft looks at apple and not at linux to see what features to clone.

You mean like firefox's pop-up blocking or tab browsing features ? (to be featured in IE7)
Or OpenOffice.org's integrated PDF export ? (to be featured in MS-Office Vista)

(ok, i must admit, firefox and openoffice aren't the only one to implement this before microsoft. Opera was among the first with tabbed browsing ...)

Re:16 years old schoolgirls ?

[jilles]

I think your reply illustrates my point quite effectively. Nothing you cite is actually worth boasting about but you do. That's the point. You don't like teenagers (you have my symphathy), so you think google's summer of code actually made a difference for end users (naive) and you managed to find two cases where MS actually copied some features from software packages that also run on linux (but have the majority of their users on windows). Good for you.

Linux IM is not ready for mainstream yet

[Reapman]

I totally agree, it's not there yet. Regardless of the install method, the interfaces are not up to snuff. I use gaim, it's perfect for me, but for people addicted to the winks / nudges / webcam / other stuff (which I agree is crap), especially the younger generation, that alone would be reason to NOT go to Linux. IM is pretty important these days like it or not, and probably going to grow. Everyone I know is constantly wondering when I'm going to "upgrade" to the new MSN so they can send winks and nudges and crap. br>
I use Gentoo, and if someone can prove me wrong I'd REALLY appreciate it. To be honest I wish there was a client that was as feature (bloated?) as MSN or Trillian just to bring in more of the non techie people, as I would like to see Linux a as a stronger desktop alternative for the normies (read, people not like me :P)

Much more than IM

[Anonymous Coward]

But haven't you noticed that instant messaging has evolved to be more like "instant communication", where the communiqué is more than just plain text? Sometimes you instantly want someone to see the picture you're working on, cut+paste. Or maybe you want to send them a clip of the music you're listening too or a little audio message. You just bought something and you want to show it to your friend via webcam snapshot even. People want to communicate in every medium the way they do with text in IM applications. Using one application.

More than IM bells and whistles

[Anonymous Coward]

This isn't limited to just instant messaging applications. I'd love to use Linux more, I just need to configure it... oh, look, a command prompt.

"The Boss"

[Anonymous Coward]

And thus it should be proven once and for all and for all eternity henceforth that your average european has not even an iota more of intelligence than your average american.

Of course this helps nothing as neither of them are able to understand this :)

Ever Try Synaptic?

[alucinor]

Ever try synaptic? Autopackage? The "Install Applications" menu in Ubuntu Breezy? Geez, man ... of course RPMs are crap; that's antiquated.

GAIM

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd use GAIM except that my place of employment absolutely requires my received messages to be minimized to the tray when I receive them, and not popped up.

Thus far, I cannot seem to make this so.

Until then, no GAIM.

Someone can explain this to me.

[xrayspx]

Lately, since I updated to Kopete 3.4.2a, Kopete is randomly (randomly on a per-user basis, and even different instances of chats with users give different behavior), using "ICQ Email Express" in place of the remote username. Sometimes it is just within the chat window, often it also puts that in the title bar of the chat window so I have no idea who I'm talking to except though context.

This does not happen just in chats with ICQ users, but also with AIM users, but not all AIM users 100% of the time. I haven't been successful googling for an answer to this yet.

I also now have an ICQ Email Express user in my Buddy list, which I can delete, but which doesn't help me. I think it just converted one of my actual "buddies" to that.

Dumb.

/rant

The real point "IM integration"

[fedux]

Many people are complaining about TFA not getting the point of what a IM client should be.

I think the issue is not at IM but the integration with other functions. I know, is something else, but I'd like to have a good IM client like GAIM with support for voice chat, video, SMS, etc. I really hate the GUI of the you_know_which IM, but I'd like to have some of it features in Linux (GAIM or other) also.

There is no client in Linux (AFAIK) that implements at least the TOP 5 features of the TOP 5 IM systems, and I think that's where we lag behind.

wrong economic model

[halfelven]

There is no such thing as "mass produced software". Heck, that's why it's software. The cost of making 10 copies of an application and the cost of making 10 million copies are different just because in the latter case you have to burn more CDs - a small percentage of the total cost if the software is big and complex (operating system, office suite, etc.).

And no, Microsoft doesn't have lower costs than the rest of the industry. Quite the opposite.

Finally, their habit of using their sheer weight to crush the competition (a.k.a. monopolistic practices) is widely known.

So... what was your point, again?

Another Trolling Article

[iamlucky13]

You're missing every bit as much as I am. The article is just begging to ignite the bickering on Slashdot.

I could talk all I wanted about how much I love GAIM compared to any of the IM clients I've used, but that's just not important in regards to this article. The only thing I can think of from the article that GAIM doesn't do, is the annoying screen shake thing (*shudders*). With the sort of people for whom that makes or breaks the IM experience, functionality is nothing compared style (I personally prefer the looks of GAIM, but that's me). The same people don't buy iPods because of the great interface, they buy them because they're shiny and they like the shadow figure dancing around on the commercials. They don't use Windows because of compatibility issues in Linux, they use it because they're "not a Mac person" and either think Linux is too complicated for them or can't think beyond two options for an OS. GAIM is not limiting Linux adoption.

Reply to specific points in TFA

[einhverfr]

I agree with you that GAIM is pretty good. And I found the article to be a sort of odd diatribe that seemed more at home on MS's GetTheFud page than OSNews....

Oh well... As for specific points from the article to back my point....

Other features include magical file transfers (magical in the sense that thanks to uPNP, file transfer actually work, even if you're heavily firewalled/NAT'ed),

Not if someone builds firewalls which block this, it doesn't. Case in point, most people I know at large companies cannot transfer files out of their network using it.

Also, I have never had more trouble with GAIM and file transfers than I have with MSN Messenger on Windows. I can receive files just fine for the most part, though I did not build my firewall to keep me from sending files out....

Now, I would like to see video and voice make it into Gaim, and whiteboard sharing (not familiar with any good T.120 clients for Linux). But most of these annoying features such as nudges and flash sequences will be incorporated soon, I guess, and I suspect that, like the avatars, I will promptly turn them off.

You don't understand...

[Anonymous Coward]

Linux is not Windows

Re: Sweeping Generalizations Solve Most Problems

[mpapet]

Mod parent Troll.

With Windows, you can download an installation file and know it'll install on any Windows box without any problem.
That has got to be -the- most innacurate generalization I've heard about Windows in a long time. I can't be the only one with horror stories.

With Linux, you get all sorts of package dependency crap
If you attempt to install joe-shmoe's downloaded package of software not included in a stable distro repository, then you are asking for dependency issues. The same is true of windows freeware downloaded from joe-shmoe's site too. Please do the following:
1. Install a popular distro
2. Don't fsck with the repository url's
3. enjoy

Packaging mayhem indeed... Mayhem is roughly defined as willfully maiming or crippling. Which is exactly what your post is to Linux.

My thoughts

[einhverfr]

First, I always have trouble installing GAIM from source, so it is one of the few apps I actually use RPM for on my laptop.... Maybe it has improved since last time I tried though, but my experiences were so bad that I don't even try anymore.

Now.... As for generally installing apps from source... For my customers, I make a clear distinction between those apps they want their package manager to handle (Gaim, Scribus, OOo, etc) and those pieces of software which need to be separately managed (PostgreSQL, SQL-Ledger, etc). So many people have trouble with something like PostgreSQL that gets surrupticiously upgraded and suddenly won't start because you didn't do a dump/initdb/restore of your data that it is not worth using RPM for that. Yet for something like GAIM, managing it via the package manager (and hence allowing for automatic updates) makes a lot of sense.

Yes, it should be easy to write a GUI installer for source tarballs which would give you grandma-level access to the source-installer, but I haven't found a good reason to do so yet.

Re:My thoughts

[Anonymous Coward]

Doesn't practically every linux distro come with GAIM pre-installed?

Re:The article is SPOT ON

[chill]

No, you're missing the point. A message is more than just a text string.

I just converted my neighbors 3 PCs over to Linux (Linspire) after two were totally trashed by spyware, virii and worms. He didn't give a damn about anything else other than: web browsing, e-mail, can open Word/Excel document (OpenOffice did it fine), and Java/Flash/PDF. Everything else -- EVERYTHING -- was available to axe. If it worked, fine. If not, it was expendable.

It worked great. His kids (teenagers) use one of the PCs for chat (MSN), browsing and homework. They burn some CDs (K3B), play MP3s and videos (Amarok & Kaffeine) and do the stuff most kids do with a PC (Firefox, GAIM & OpenOffice). Their ONLY complaint was MSN video chat was missing from GAIM. Everything else they had no issues with -- just a couple days learning curve as to the differences.

They all live on IM, just like my kids. File transfers on GAIM are a problem if you're behind NAT; setting AOL buddy icons is a pain (can't use aim:// -- maybe I can figure this out...); can't do video or voice chat. Well, they can use PhoneGAIM with their friends that have a SIP client, which is a few.

IM *IS* video chat, file transfer, buddy icons and all that other cutesy crap.

  -Charles

Feature, not a bug!

[Anonymous Coward]

People are going to flame me for this one... better make it anonymous, so I can ignore them easily.

I don't want our corporate IM solution to talk to commercial IM services like yahoo, MSN, AOL, etc.

I want the company to make lots and lots of money so that my team and I make lots and lots of money so I can retire early. The team works better when isolated from the people who use those IM services.

We use jabber (of course, because we actually read and understand protocol specifications) and we block all IM at the corporate edge.

Re:Am I missing something?: file transfers?

[Fentekreel]

I've been using gaim for a year or so and have never seen anyone that has gotten the file transfering working between msn/yahoo/aim working properly. Evan after setting ports and forwarding them as nessicary all it ever does is time out. No connections ever seem to get through. This is a major turn off for almost everyone i know. It drove most of my family back to Aim with the ads and everything. All they want is the extra features that are not working on the "third party" clients....if you can tell me how to get the file sharing and such working by all means let me know.

Haha, you fool

[Anonymous Coward]

You just proved that the average American is far less informed since you obviously think "Europe" is comparable with the US. Europe is over 50 countries - all of them have different languages/schools/finances/people. How can one person from one country represent the society of European NATIONS! No, it's not like the US states at all.

Re:Haha, you fool

[Random832]

Politically, it's about where the US was in the 1780s - a collection of states that are associated with each other for various political reasons.

You'll deny it, but how is the EU really different from the US under the articles of confederation?

allow me to be the 102nd to say...

[Anonymous Coward]

leave my damn operating system alone you windows nazis

We already have this

[nurb432]

There are several 'multi-network' chat clients available.

Gaim and Kopete, off the top of my head for generic unix.

Both are pretty easy to use, and lets you 'take them with you' if you migrate to *nix.

On the OSX side, 'fire' works well.

Hahaha, and windows is any better?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Grandpa, click on that link.

No no no! Not that link.

Shoot, you just opened the wrong e-mail message and automatically infected your machine with Spyware.

We need to find out where it installed itself. Click Start, now click Run, now type in regedit..."

Strongly disagree

[einhverfr]

Excuse me, but that's just plain ignorance. I know of a hell lot of people who really hate windows and would love to switch over to Linux, but it's the little things like these that hold them back.

Hmmm.... 1) Users hate Windows. 2) Users don't move to Linux because it is not enough like Windows. I fail to see how one leads to the other except that many users have a love-hate relationship with Windows. They hate it but they are afraid of anything else. Therefore they will keep the evil they know instead of moving to the unknown. YOU CANNOT WIN WITH THIS CROWD SO STOP TRYING.

Linux is different. We should be saying "This is different. It is as different from Windows as a Mac is. Yes there are similar user interface guidelines, but the underlying technology and ideas are different."

They try to use all kind of thingies over MSN with me, including webcam conversations, but it simply doesn't work for them.

Web cam conversations are possible using other means. And if you are stuck with MSN, I would suggest waiting until this is available. It is not that we need this to succeed, but that we need this to meet a particular person's need. These are not the same statements.

Sure, it's not the only thing, but it's the picture as a whole that we draw about the user experience under Linux... sure, it's nice, fonts are prettier (in the opinions of many), but that just doesn't do it...

IMO, people are *way* too concerned about eye candy. We need to be concerned about usability and functionality. Hint: Most people want their computers to "just work" as tools and help them get a specific job done. By focusing on getting these jobs done better than Windows, and making things "just work" which IMO it already does in the vast majority of cases better than Windows already, then Linux will succeed.

Here is a hint. Unlike Microsoft, our success is not driven by flashy feature comparison cards handed out by the Marketing Department. Instead, our success is based on getting a specific job done and having that customer recommend Linux to the next guy. This is what we need to do to "succeed." No, Linux is not perfect, and there are many areas such as interoperability where progress will be made, but this is not a feature checklist. It is a general goal of interoperability and functionality.

Again, the goal isn;t to be like Windows. It is to get specific jobs done *better* than Windows.

Qnext

[immerrath]

http://www.qnext.com/ __EVERYTHING__ works -- webcam, file transfer, music streaming, chat, AND it's free (atleast for now). It's Java. Just download, unzip and it works.

instant messenging?

[Anonymous Coward]

MESSENGING? what? go back to school :|

Enter klik ! http://klik.atekon.de/

[Anonymous Coward]

The community is testing and developing ways to solve that *AND* improve it over windows way of installing/using applications.

One of them is Klik, the no-install application in a file.
http://klik.atekon.de/

With time, FS/OSS will totally dominate desktop world with better solutions than MS's, Apple's or anyone's.

This guy is a TOOL

[mixmasta]

This guy is a TOOL...

I use gaim specifically because:

- it doesn't look like a fischer-price playset
- 75% of the area of the windows aren't taken up by irrelevant bullshit
- nothing is flashing or animating
- icons and appearance are quite nice, despite what he says (thank you gtk2)

I cringe everytime I must use MSN or YIM in an internet cafe.

Video support would be nice, but that's all I'm lookin for.

write baby!

[boa13]

Screw all this fancy ncurses and smart tty crap! write forever!

$ write
usage: write user [tty]

Re:write baby!

[cortana]

Real men just cat(1) to the target tty.

One hyphanated word.

[ZakuSage]

apt-get

Re:One hyphanated word.

[Maltheus]

Screw that, the hyphen is too far away from my fingers. Save a letter and use this word instead: emerge. :)

Re:One hyphanated word.

[surprise_audit]

Works for me, though it's a tad slow on a 60MHz Sparc 10...

But think of the fun...!

[6Yankee]

Oh, but think of the fun you can have!

Imagine a worm that doesn't send spam, doesn't install backdoors, doesn't do anything - except replace your MSN emoticons. Your friend types a smiley, they see a smiley, you see "Would you like to have sex with me?" in the default font. Multiply by a few million, toss in a few corporate users - all hell would break loose!

It's probably just as well for humanity that I'm an HTML/Javascript guy and can't do real programming for shit...

the difference between TFA and the real world

[Phil Urich]

My point depends on TFA, alas. So to quote it:

"Why do we keep thinking that Gaim's so '1999-2000' tools are good enough?"

Thus, gaim-vv is a counter example; as in, no, people don't think it's enough, they're working on improving things--which is a very different picture than the one that the article paints.

MOD PARENT UP

[Anonymous Coward]

informative++

ya

[mattwarden]

ya im tired of ppl tryin 2 send me filez and it not werkin if i had a dime for every time ppl have tried to send me a pic of the last party they were at and the transfer failed id have at least eleventy billion $$$ come on linux i need to be able to send ims just like i can on windows

gaim sucks

[Anonymous Coward]

gaim in my opinion sucks. its not the engine, but the gui. why would someone in their right mind want to emulate aol's gui is beyond me.
there is nothing worse but when i'm trying to sneak behind an enemy guard and that damn window pops up with sound taking over my screen at the worst damn time and making me get 120834092 bullets in my ass failing 3/4 through the damn level! The worst part is that it makes me fall off the chair with my heart about to explode after all the Vault i've drunk earlier.
aol designer team and everybody that copies them needs to be raped for making such a crappy product. i _really_ don't understand why everyone makes messengers like aol's today? why not make it like the good old icq? single message system rules after all. and if you really wanna split mode crap, you right click on the user id and select "chat" and thats it.
if you really love that shit, then go use irc, get a big fucking channel with all of your contacts and talk to everyone. simple.

No launchcast

[deadblown]

Well, I stopped using the Yahoo messenger for Linux and GAIM because I needed Yahoo Launchcast.

Goverment regulation

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think the situation will change until the goverment regulates instant messaging. Large corporations are hoarding the user base preventing comparable services like Jabber from emerging. Unfortunately I can't put any words to what's wrong with doing that but maybe someone reading Slashdot has a legal or philosophical argument.

GAIM is for for us nerds...

[JohnnyNoSPAM]

I've read a lot here about how Gaim seems to work for us nerds. Gaim works fine for me. But the author says that we should not be the only target audience.

Younger folks are in fact turned on by the bells and whistles. They want these features. I find it interesting that many of us want Linux and Open Source in general to continue gaining momentum; however, it also seems like we want people to be geeks like us as well. That's not going to happen. I periodically look through Linux news groups. Often when a newbie posts a question that may be obvious to an experienced user, that person is basically told how stupid he or she is. That's not always how it is, but definitely frequently. If want people to try out what we love, then we need to be prepared to expect that there are many folks who don't know how to find documentation. They want software and what not - like their Windows counterparts - to start it up and be ready to go as well as do most anything that they were able to do previously. Tabbed windows are nice, but we need more than that to make a sale.

Bells and whistles aside, some basic functionality like file transfer really does stink in our IM clients. I think that maintaining functionality and compatiblility between platforms is a fair. Even if our clients don't support things like IM-background sharing, I think things like file transfer should be something to support.

good stuff

[idlake]

This is exactly why Linux is not a real threat to Windows.

Whatever you say.

With Windows, you can download an installation file and know it'll install on any Windows box without any problem.

You just go on believing that (must be good stuff you're on).

Re:good stuff

[Anonymous Coward]

Whatever you say.

Yep, still a linux snob who cannot get over the fact MAC OSX has blown linux's chances fullstop.

You just go on believing that (must be good stuff you're on).

Im trying to remeber the last program i installed that needed something as complex as .net framework. Ah, thats it, none at all. A program made for windows works on windows, not an obscure variant.

it's all about the emoticons

[gregorlowski]

It's basically all about the emoticons. My gaim supported all the yahooim emoticons, but then yahoo updated, and then the new emoticons weren't supported. I kept telling people at work to switch from yahoo im to gaim on windows (I was using and will continue to use gaim on GNU/linux), but they wouldn't do it because it didn't support the new emoticons.

Other people complained that gaim wasn't intuitive. Some complained that trillian looks better (I personally think that trillian resembles win32 crap nagware and think the ui is ugly, but to each her own).

Anyway, it's hard to make end users happy when you're a developer. People who can get free-as-in-beer im clients for win32 from yahoo and aol will only switch to FOSS IM clients if the latter absolutely blow the freeware versions out of the water.

It's like firefox and IE. IE already comes with windows. People aren't paying for it anyway. Sure, you can convince some people that IE will give them spyware, but for most people they don't care that firefox is better -- IE works ok. However, when the barista at my local coffee shop asked me if, as an IT guy, I could hook her up with a pirated version of MS Office and I told her to use OO 2.0 RC2 instead because it's quite good and free in every way, she got really excited and has been using it ever since. ... same goes with GNU/linux and Windoze. You HAVE to buy the latter when you buy a new computer (yeah, I too build my systems from parts, but only geeks will ever do this). When hardware companies start selling pre-loaded GNU/Linux systems for less than the cost of windows, people will switch (at least businesses will first and then home users will get the same thing that they use at work and that their kids use at school).

You're a bit right and a whole lotta wrong

[WebCowboy]

Please help me out here. I am wracking my brain trying to think of a case where Microsoft started charging for something that was once free

POP access to hotmail is the only one that comes to mind, so you're right in saying that MS doesn't use that strategy to gouge consumers in its normal course of business.

Operating Systems, nope, they never were free (though the service packs and updates have always been free)

True, but as time has gone (and competition disappeared) the price of a MS OS has gone up substantially--especially in relation to the cost of the hardware on which it runs. You also seem to suggest that MS is being generous in giving away updates and service packs. IMHO, if MS didn't give them away they already they should be forced to as they correct product defects. Ford was forced to rectify the design flaws in their Pinto so why would MS be off the hook?

IE, nope, free (at least until the government intercedes on our behalf and makes us buy it)

No court in the world has instructed MS to charge extra for IE or WMP. The issue was *bundling*--not only including the apps with the OS but also purposefully INTEGRATING them into the OS to the point that they cannot be removed or replaced--encouraging application developers to treat what should've been applications as "system componenets" and building dependencies on them into everything. This is bad on two levels--from a technical standpoint it creates a monolithic architecture which is a major factor in the weak security of Windows. From an economic standpoint it shuts out competition and creates a captive market--even if you install Firefox on Windows you cannot remove IE--you need it for Windows Update and for a number of apps to work. That is NONSENSE--such things shouldn't depend on IE.

Office, nope, never was free - though the price has DROPPED significantly as competition has disappeared

The price of Office did not drop because of the lack of competition. The price of office dropped BECAUSE of LOWER-PRICED competition. OpenOffice can be obtained at no cost--that's a pretty low price. Even more crucially, the biggest competition for MS Office is...the previous version of MS Office. After all, settling with what you already have 'cause it works well enough is ust as free (monetarily) as OpenOffice.

There MUST BE at least one example! I mean, after all, it's "common knowledge" that this is a predatory Microsoft practice.

Well, I already gave such an example in MSN Hotmail--some services that were free now costs money. I do not think this was done as a "predatory practise" however. The "predatory practise" that MS HAS done is the opposite--they release a product for sale, then start giving it away, then start bundling it. This is what they did with IE--first it wasn't even included on the Windows setup CD and you had to buy a "plus pack" to get it. Then they started giving it away as a download (which was slow) for a short time until it appeared in the Windows 95 "A" release. To that point they were just being aggressive--after that their actions became predatory and monopolistic. By the time NT4 and the "B" version of 95 were in wide use MS had turned IE into a "component" of the OS on which much of its own software (and a number of third party titles) depended.

It isn't actually the fact MS gives away some software that makes it predatory--even if they were to later start charging for it. What hurts the industry and consumers is the way they use their pricing strategy *AND* their platform architecture to LOCK IN users, often at the expanse of security and stability.

Re:You're a bit right and a whole lotta wrong

[LaughingCoder]

Actually I'm completely correct, as my statement was that I was not aware of any examples of Microsoft giving stuff away, then squashing the competition, and then charging us for it. The one example offered, HotMail, is hardly an instance where MS has eliminated the competition. (And I suspect the POP charges came about when HotMail was no longer beta). Anyhow, that statement was what I objected to in the original post, and that was what I refuted.

As regards your point about the OS license costs, methinks you are mistaken. Windows XP Home is an $89 item at my local Best Buy. Windows 95 was $99 10 years ago. And MSDOS 3.3 was around $100 20 years ago. And let's not forget that XP comes "bundled" with IE, WMP, ZIP, Picture Viewers, Movie Makers, etc ... so arguably, value-wise they have dramatically reduced their prices.

The Office product hovers around $250 these days, from the $500 range in the hey-day of integrated office suites. Now I would not attribute that price drop to Microsoft being generous. Nor would I think it is due to the minimal competition offered by Open Office and Star Office. I think, as you inferred, it is more likely Office prices have dropped to lure existing customers to upgrade.

You made one statement that made me think for a moment. You pointed out that Microsoft is fond of charging for a product, then giving it away free, then bundling it (which is the same as free only there is no additional effort to obtain it). You described this as a predatory practice. Interesting. So if your car company calls you up and says "we have this new computer module for your car that improves gas mileage by 25%, and it's only $100", and then a year later the module is free (just stop by the dealer) and then a year after that it's inside every car they build -- this is predatory? I call that evolution.

Re:You're a bit right and a whole lotta wrong

[WebCowboy]

As regards your point about the OS license costs, methinks you are mistaken.

I am not mistaken--especially in terms of the relative cost in comparison to the hardware on which it runs. Firstly you are quoting the price for upgrades. The full retail version of XP Home is nearly $200. For the pro versions, XP Pro is currently a scant $20 cheaper than 200 Pro and XP used to be more expensive than 2000. You are also being misleading about the price of Office. You are again quoting an upgrade or Academic price. MS Office to this day has retailed in the $450 to $500 range, falling to $400 in the months preceeding the release of a new version.

If you adjust for inflation you could say the price has gone down--but given the 500% markup MS could afford to be more competitive, especially when you consider hardware. When Windows 95 came out, the price of a suitably-equipped system was around $1500 (a '486-class machine with 8 MB or so of RAM including monitor). When XP came out (at a higher initial retail cost than 95) you could get a good-enough system for $1000 or maybe a bit less (with monitor). The retail price of XP has come down slightly but now it is possible to get a complete system for close to $500 that is more capable than a machine twice the price 3 to 4 years ago. IIRC large OEMs have paid $30 per copy and that has remained constant, however the overall system price has sunk dramatically, meaning MS' take as a PERCENTAGE is now MUCH higher than it used to be.

You pointed out that Microsoft is fond of charging for a product, then giving it away free, then bundling it [...] this is predatory? I call that evolution

Yes it IS predatory--and bundling as MS does it is NOT the same as free. You obviously completely overlooked the entire point. When MS went from giving away IE to "bundling" IE it really INTEGRATED it. It would've been fine for them to include it on the install CD and make it easy to install, but they went FAR beyond that. You cannot remove IE--they threw its DLLs all over the system and made Windows Update only work with IE (and I haven't heard a good technical reason why they HAD to do that). You can download Firefox and ignore IE, but it must still clutter your hard drive and you must still run its code when you do an online update of the OS. If an animal "evolved" the way Windows did it would probably keep its gills, scales and tail even as it grew limbs, fur and lungs--then it would go extinct as its body had to support all its vestiguous organs.

And to counter your automotive analogy Microsoft would not just offer the module for a price, then for free then standard in next year's model. Microsoft would install the module box in a secret location, weld the box shut and then weld the box to the frame so it cannot ever be removed without a great deal of effort. Then the hood would be welded shut. MS would make the wire connectors overly complicated to thwart reverse engineering and while those ambitious enough to cut open the hood could install 3rd party modules that have the potential of cutting fuel consumption by 33%, those modules would not perform as well as they do in other makes of car because all the signals would have to pass from the sensors through the MS module.

Incidentally, auto makers HAVE tried to pull a Microsoft and keep their electronics and connectors secret, but in the consumers' interest governments have mandated that they cannot do that (at least not permanently)...because it was ruled ANTI-COMPETITIVE/PREDATORY. That is why newer cars all have things like standard OBD2 ports and why 3rd party tuners are permitted to sell their own modules/chips/firmware. You can also have the right to reverse-engineer or modify your car without legal threats from the manufacturer (apart from potentially voiding a warranty).

Re:You're a bit right and a whole lotta wrong

[LaughingCoder]

Ahem. Office Standard $333 at Amazon. Office Student $125. Average of these 2 prices: $229 .

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/feature/-/528 734/104-5098651-8249553

Regarding MS OS being a higher percentage of the overall cost of a PC - hardware costs have fallen dramatically. The cost to develop software is higher than ever before. No big surprise here. By your logic, since the cost of the physical CD media has dropped from $2 to $0.20, software titles should have dropped by that same factor of 10. You know it doesn't work that way. The fact that the media is 10 times cheaper does not mean you can pay your army of games developers 1/10th of their former salary. If anything, as software complexity rises, costs rise as well. To assert that software costs should track hardware costs is simply silly and you should know better.

And regarding my missing the whole point, I think the shoe is squarely on the other foot. As products evolve the list of standard features expands. Things that were add-on options become built-in. This is done for many reasons - cost savings, reliabiltiy and better integration being among them. As an application developer I can really appreciate knowing that if I build an application that requires audio playback, or web-page viewing, I can use built-in facilities in the platform. I don't have to design, code and test for every possible combination. Or worse, arrange for installing these utilities with my application. This leads to a dramatically better end-user experience, and a more robust product. Now, there may be many reasons why Microsoft chooses to integrate those facilities, and one of them may have to do with locking in users, but you cannot deny the obvious, tangible and substantial benefits to application developers, who are then able to pass those benefits on to their end users.

Continuing with the car analogy. My car has built-in sunroof, built-in tinted windows, built-in heated seats, built-in security system, built-in halogen headlights, a built-in stereo, etc etc. All of those things started out as add-ons. That is simply the way products evolve. Designers build in more and more features to differentiate themselves. Just because Microsoft is way better at it than most is no reason to pretend this is a bad thing.

And by the way, if you want to talk predatory, let's talk Redhat Linux - Standard Enterprise Edition - $1499 ($2499 for the Premium Edition). That's up quite a bit from free.

http://www.redhat.com/software/rhel/compare/server /

Re:You're a bit right and a whole lotta wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

$2499 is still a whole lot cheaper than Windows Enterprise Server 2003, which actually costs $3999. And that's just the server itself, you also need to pay money for every user using the server, as can be seen on

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserver2003/howtobu y/licensing/pricing.mspx

Enterprise applications cost money. That's just the way it is. On the other hand, Ubuntu is free as in both beer and speech, same as Fedora Core, Debian, Gentoo and Slackware. Pick whatever works for you.

Regarding the monolithic vs modular approach, I'm of the opinion that an OS should *never* be a monolithic whole. It should be modular, and all parts should be possible to exchange for better ones. Ironically I'm writing this using Opera, but Opera integrates things in a way that allows me for using my own applications if I don't want to use it's built-in newsreader, or feed-aggregator, or whatever.

And to continue on the car analogy, Windows is like a car in which you cannot replace anything. Sure it's all great when it's new and shiny, but a couple of years down the road when everyone else has new shiny parts to their more modular cars you're SoL and needs to buy an entirerly new car in order to get what everyone else got for a much lower price. See the problem?

Re:You're a bit right and a whole lotta wrong

[LaughingCoder]

That's interesting. So by your logic I must not be able to run FireFox? Actually I am and I didn't have to replace my machine - I just installed it. Perhaps I should be annoyed that IE is still "lurking in the background" even though FireFox is my "default" browser? In my experience it is pretty easy to add new features to Windows; not necessarily as easy to remove the old ones.

In fact I have never in my life seen a product more extensible than a PC running Windows. Virtually every new thing that comes down the pike is available for Windows, and usually it's available there first. Contrast that with Macs and the many Linux distros, where my choices are more limited (and in the case of Macs, more expensive). No, quite to the contrary, if I want the newest shiniest thing I don't have to throw away my machine and start over. At home I have 5 year old machines running Windows 2000 with WiFi connections, USB 2.0, firewire, high-performance 3D video boards, 5.1 audio, DVD writers, ... none of these things even existed when that system was first built. I know, those are hardware things. Let's talk software -- I run Nero for burning (not Windows builtins), FireFox for browsing, WinZip for archiving (not Windows builtins), Cisco VPN clients (not Windows builtins), Google's browser toolbar, Winamp for mp3 playing, ... the list goes on and on. How is this possible with Windows' monolithic architecture? Now, could Microsoft make it easier to extend Windows? Of course! But to make the simplistic statement that because they provide you with a broad selection of workable, non-removable utilities built into the operating system does not mean it is not extensible.

Re:You're a bit right and a whole lotta wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, I agree that just because something has built-in features doesn't mean it cannot be extended. The question is, how much do I have to sacrifice in terms of power and resources? Because the problem isn't that I can't *add* something - The problem is I can't *remove* stuff.

If you have a car with an integrated CD-player, and then later on you realise you want to install an mp3-player with flash memory so that the CD-player won't draw as much energy from the battery, you'll find that installing the mp3-player will draw MORE battery, since it'll mean you run both the CD and mp3 addons. So then you want to remove the CD-ROM since you don't use it anymore. Which of course turns out to be impossible since it's wired to the ignition engine and thus removing the CD-player will render your car unable to start.

Add-ons are best when left as just add-ons. If you throw in an add-on package in the deal to make it sweeter, I have no real problems with that. It's when something which clearly is an add-on becomes a neccessary and vital part of the OS (which is the case of IE) that I personally start objecting to these practices. And if you don't think IE is a vital part of Windows, just look at most Windows installers these days... Half of 'em won't even start if IE isn't around. 'Nuff said.

living under a rock, aren't you?

[idlake]

Modern Linux distributions come with all applications Grandma would ever want to use preinstalled. So, all she does is click on the "Instant Messenger" icon. See, that's even easier than Windows.

their problem

[idlake]

Excuse me, but that's just plain ignorance. I know of a hell lot of people who really hate windows and would love to switch over to Linux, but it's the little things like these that hold them back.

MSN video chat won't get ported to Linux for the simple reason that it's a Microsoft-proprietary system. If people can't deal with that, that's too bad; they should stay on Windows.

Incidentally, it works both ways: my favorite software isn't available on Windows. In fact, I find Windows kind of a wasteland in terms of software: lots of crappy shareware apps, a few decent but overpriced commercial stuff, and then Microsoft monopoly-ware. Thanks, but no thanks.

Re:their problem

[taupter]

Kopete does video chat, and amsn does too. Kopete does video chat in MSN and Yahoo! protocols.
The video compression used by MSN was reverse-engineered by our fellow friends from the FarSight Project, and was ported to Kopete. The SVN and 0.12 versions already work just fine, and KDE 3.5 will have video support by default.

Cláudio da Silveira Pinheiro
Kopete Developer

Re:their problem

[Anonymous Coward]

That's why we have fun with the
D-M-C-A!
D-M-C-A!
You fix what you want
They take you to court
And then you go ja-il

It's so much fun with the
D-M-C-A!
D-M-C-A!

Re:their problem

[idlake]

Nice, and congratulations on that. However, that's not something anybody can really rely on: Microsoft can assert patent claims at any moment, and they can just switch to a different CODEC.

In the short-term, reverse engineered protocols may help attract some users who don't know any better, but in the long term, a well-engineered open source chat solution based on an open IM infrastructure is more important.

Re:their problem

[taupter]

I somewhat half-agree with you, it's aways catching up, but:
Trillian does it;
AFAIK software patents are valid only in United States of America;
Reverse-engineering allows us to implement what users demmand now. I started coding because I needed to be able to see my girlfriend and my mother. As we offer things to users that enable them to use Free OSes and FLOSS we can later on attract them to open IM platforms/protocols. Interoperability with closed-source protocols is a riddance we need to handle while a FLOSS IM infraestructure is not broadly used. It takes time, but we have it. Who would imagine some years ago we would have a viable alternative to Microsoft, and such a growing acceptance in the market, with IBM, HP, Governments and a grassroots movement pushing it forward?
We'll win. ;)

Just what we need.

[labratuk]

Another vocal member of the "I don't understand package management" club.

Minimalist?

[Valdrax]

Let me guess. You're one of those people who posts about how you just want "a phone that's a PHONE" whenever some new and interesting phone with advanced capabilities comes out, aren't you? As long as it meets your limited needs, no one else needs anything else, right?

The point of this article is that a lot of young people DO use video chat, DO use file transfers, DO use voice communication, etc. Linux clients haven't even reliably achieved file transfer, which was the hot thing back in 1999-2000, IIRC. These people could by OSS users, but won't be because their favorite communication app has no equivalent OSS replacement and changing over would mean isolation from your friends.

Kopete rocks

[diwaker]

I use kopete (http://kopete.kde.org/ which is basically KDE's equivalent of gaim (yes, I know one can run gaim just as well on KDE too, but read on). Being a KDE user, I prefere kopete over gaim because of its excellent integration with KMail and the rest of the PIM suite. Evolution users might feel the same way towards Gaim. Voice chat and video support is being actively worked on, including support of Y! quirks like "Buzz!". All in all, I have nothing to complain about the state of IMs in Linux -- I have helped several friends switch to gaim/kopete with no complaints.

Yeah, MS was really "helpful"

[WebCowboy]

Microsoft, in my opinion, has HELPED foster competition, not hurt it

Yeah, MS was quite "helpful" there--I mean, look how WordPerfect, Quattro Pro and Paradox flourished after MS got into the act with MS Word, Excel and MS Access.

The consumer wins because Microsoft mass produces software and sells it at a lower price

Yeah MS is quite generous with their prices--the street price of Windows and Office represents a mark-up of a mere FIVE HUNDRED percent. You also conveniently overlooked the fact that the above competiton was consistently sold at lower prices than Microsoft's offerings. Yes, WordPerfect for Windows was real crufty and they didn't get it right for a couple of releases--but keep in mind that the WP folks couldn't peer over the "Chinese wall" as easily as the MS Office guys could. And...Quattro and Paradox actually were well matched or superior to versions of Excel and Access that existed at the time.

It's not the consumer's responsibility to protect ailing businesses. The only responsibility consumers have is to create demand for higher quality and lower prices. Microsoft has met much of that demand.

I also find it distasteful when governments and others feel that we must save ailing businesses without regard to their viability. However, I'd argue that MS did not succeed because it met that demand--its success depended largely on anti-competitive practices. It is fine and dandy to give away stuff or take advantage of an opportunity when a competitor stumbles (hello WordPerfect 5.x for Windows). It becomes a problem when MS "embraces and extends" industry standards, turns applications into "operating system components" and keeps some of its externally-callable APIs secret from non-MS application developers so it can use them for leverage in its own apps. Yes, MS' dominance put an end to the "good" old days when you had 5 different versions of the same app to run on Apple, Commodore, Atari, TRS80 and TI but in the end we got an overpriced, resource-hungry OS that was a haven for malware.

Adium

[Jamie Zawinski]

Adium ... uses libgaim underneath to support every IM service.

Not quite: Adium doesn't do IRC, despite the fact that libgaim supports it.

Since all of the OSX IRC clients I've seen suck, I've pretty much stopped using IRC as a result.

Bruce Springsteen is a PHB?

[hugesmile]

since you obviously think "Europe" is comparable with the US. Europe is over 50 countries - all of them have different languages/schools/finances/people.

Looks like you just made a comparison, contradicting your point.

Adium for OS X is based on Gaim, and it's bad ass.

[Amiasian]

It's too bad GAIM hasn't taken from some of Adium (OS X Client based off of the GAIM source) design:

Highly customizable UI and sounds.

Extensive system of action-responses, per individual contact.

Simple plugin architecture (more of an OS X thing, perhaps).

Scriptability (via AppleScript but I can't see why this would be too difficult to do in a *nix environment).

Tight integration with other applications, such as the address book.

Font, user icon and alias (buddy name) overrides. The last being good for people who really think it's clever to have a paragraph for an MSN name. (By the way, is it just me or is it only Emo-personalitied types who seem to use the long names?)

Services menu integration. Hm. But that's really an OS X feature. Still, it's cool being able to use the functionality of one App inside of another. I really wish other OS's would implement something similar.

More . . . too lazy to name.

Is there some kind of unified contact architecture for Linux, by the way? A database of all of a person's information, like an address book that could be read from any program that needs it.

naim

[Anonymous Coward]

naim!!

Try Qnext Instead

[amiatrome]

Qnext has the following features and works in Linux. Because it's written in Java...

I was using Gaim but I am trying it now. The file sharing and music streaming features really rock in a LAN. Having problems connecting to others behind routers even with opening and forwarded ports as detailed in their documentation.

Installation was a simple decompression and execute because Qnext came bundled with the necessary Java binaries. This also means that if I hated it, I could simply delete it.

Screenshot here.

* Universal Messenger
* Audio Chat
* Video Conferencing
* Photo Sharing
* File Transfer
* File Sharing
* Group Text Chat
* Online Gaming
* Remote Access
* Music Streaming
* IRC
* and more...

I use all the fancy features

[Morgor]

I see a lot of people arguing with sentences like "my (insert favorite OSS messenger has transparent yada-yada feature, beat that MSN, or AOL or whatever) but the average user doesn't even know what it is, albeit how to use it. Most of the FOSS IM apps lack fancyness, the fancyness that the commercial IMs has. I am currently in China, but my girlfriend is back in Denmark, so I often videochat using msn messenger with her. While we're at it, I often use those fancy animations that comes with messenger, because my girlfriend thinks they're cute (hey, whatever works, right?). I have more than once tried to install an open source client, but they all seem to lack one or two feature I really miss. If I was more of the developing type, I'd probably start coding right now, but I am not.

Best?

[Trejkaz]

The article doesn't talk about the "best" Linux instant messenger at all, it talks specifically about Gaim.

Snak

[MsGeek]

It was an also-ran back in the Classic MacOS days, but it's really nice now. Kind of X-Chat like, but better than X-Chat Aqua. I like it, anyway.

EEE

[GoatVomit]

EFnet Email Emancipated goats

Ummmm...

[crhylove]

Who cares about IM?!? Where in the hell is my San Andreas for Linux?!?

Right tool for the job.

[twitter]

GAIM + Jabber = excellent IM as anyone might expect. Free software tools do the job they are supposed to. Now let's examine the gripe again:

File transfers? I can swear that you're a lucky guy (girl) when it works. Usually it doesn't, resulting in embarrassing 'Sorry mate, I'm using Linux, you know and, well, could you mail me this picture instead?'.

Oh no, what's to do? I'll be ostracized for sure when I can't send you a picture or flash trash with my wimpy Unix like OS that powers most internet servers .... wait a minute.

When you need to share stuff, just IM them a link to your cable box with it's 200+ GB of whatever you put there running any of the free web servers. Distros like Mepis come with Apache and mySQL configured, just add content. For file transfer, use a tool designed for file transfer. Sure, it might be hard for your friend to return the favor, but that's because Windoze sucks.

Sharing is THE kind of thing Windoze just can't do. If your friends are cool and ditch their stupid Windoze software, you can offer them an account via ssh so they can put their content up and share via sftp graphically through KDE's excellent file and web browser Konqueror. It does not get better than that. If you try doing these things on Windoze, your going to get owned and wiped. Hell, as you noticed, you are going to get owned simply passing flash trash back and forth.

The upshot is that Free software already has tools for the job. Sure, it might be nice to have file transfers via IM, but it will never work with a Windoze client because M$ is going to break it on their end. Don't waste your effort on a legacy platform, move on and lead the rest of your friends away from all the obnoxion. The next time they come to you for help because Winblows is spitting chunks, give them something better.

Re:Right tool for the job.

[Anonymous Coward]

Moderators: Please note that "twitter" is a known fanatical sycophant whose obnoxious offtopic rants are legend here on Slashdot. It doesn't matter what the topic is, he'll find a way to scrape in some pointless Microsoft bashing. While nobody expects us to love Microsoft in any way, his particularly tepid style of calling anyone he replies to "troll" or "liar" or "fanboy" because he happens to disagree with whatever they're saying is well documented and should not be rewarded. If anything, twitter is the type of person that should not be part of the open source/free software community. He is an anathema to all that is good about free software.

I'm posting this so that you (the moderator) have some context to consider twitter and not mod him up whenever he posts his filler preformatted rants about installing Knoppix or Mepis or whatever that unfortunately get him karma every single time and allow him to continue posting his trademark toxic crap (read on) day in and day out. You may consider this a troll - I consider it community service. And I ain't kidding.

If you're a /. subscriber, I invite you to look through some of his posting history. I guarantee that you'll be hard pressed to find someone that is more "out there" than twitter. You'll also probably notice he's got quite an AC following. Don't just read his posts, make sure you go through the replies.

To get an idea of what I'm talking about, check this post out. This is an article about email disclaimers. The parent of the post is complaining about the ads in the linked page and so on, and twitter actually goes off on a rant to blame it on Microsoft and recommend Lynx, because "is teh free".

Here's another. In this post twitter not only calls the OP a troll but attempts to "tell it like it is" while making some vague argument about "GNU". Yes, if you're confused, you're not alone. The reply (modded +4) proceeds to simply destroy his bogus argument. You will notice he did not reply. This is what some people call "drive-by advocacy". A sort of I'll just leave you with my thoughts here and move on to the next flamebait kind of deal. In fact, he almost never replies because he knows that his fanatical arguments simply do not hold up to any sort of discussion. It's not that he's chosen the wrong cause - he's just going at it in a completely wrong way.

Here's that drive-by advocacy and FUD in motion: twitter goes on about some topic and then drops the usual "oh and M$ is teh evil" because "WMP phones home" or some such. Called on his FUD, he then claims that WMP stores every song and movie you've ever played in a file, somewhere. Pressed further, he just sort of slithers out of sight, his FUD-spreading complete. This is not about some Microsoft technology that nobody likes anyway; it's about lying for the sake of lying. Way too many of his posts are exactly like this one.

More? Just read though this post and the subsequent replies. I guess this stands on its own. Or these two. Or this one. Or this one.

Still not convinced? This is what twitter considers "humour" while going about his daily "M$" routine.

M

Re:Right tool for the job.

[Anonymous Coward]

sooo what, um, are you saying that IM doesn't really work on Linux (?) so... we should "give them SSH accounts"? erm, huh? Are you that disconnected from reality?

And what's with the schizo "winblows windoze sucks M$ OMFG spitting chunks" vitriol? Don't you have anything better to hate? and... "obnoxion"?

IM for linux, VoIP for linux

[Falcon040]

In addition to the number of good IM clients for Linux (especially GAIM), if you want voice chat (VoIP) on Linux then you have a good selection too: PhoneGaim : http://www.phonegaim.com/ ( http://cockatoo.mozdev.org/ ( http://www.gizmoproject.com/ ( http://www.linphone.org/ KPhone : http://www.wirlab.net/kphone/ Skype : http://www.skype.com/ ( http://www.minisip.org/ SFLphone : http://www.sflphone.org/ SIPfoundry : http://www.sipfoundry.org/ Twinkle : http://www.twinklephone.com/ openwengo : http://www.openwengo.com/ Yate : http://yate.null.ro/ shtoom : http://www.divmod.org/projects/shtoom Best to get one that connects via 'SIP' and is entirely standard-compliant, then you can connect to anyone on other standard networks (except those in closed networks like Skype(???)).

what is the real question?

[Flunitrazepam]

have you ever fucked a girl you met on IM? I have. She gave me Syphilis. If you are going to IM please use protection.

Text mode IM has its advantages

[bender647]

I use bitlbee, an IRCd that talks to the major IM networks in text format. Access this in irssi (any tty irc client will do). Leave it running 24/7 on a server in a dtach (or screen) instance. Attach to it from anywhere on earth. See in the logs the time your buddies came and went, and any messages you missed. Chat from one machine, move to another and continue the conversation. At home on my LAN, I run the trigger script, and have it play sounds on all my PCs in the house when I get a message.

Transfers with MSN, no problem

[phorm]

I haven't had any problem both receiving and sending files with my friends, most of whom use the official MSN client. No problems with file transfers using both the 'nix and windows version of GAIM for quite awhile now. I don't really use Yahoo or the rest, so I can't comment on transfers to/from them.

Gaim file transfer still isn't done

[typical]

Okay, yes, gaim is much better than nothing. But file transfer (and unlike all the smilies and embedded HTML stuff, this is pretty important to most folks) has never, ever worked in my experience, on either my Jabber or ICQ account, even to other gaim users.

I started using tar cz filenames|nc remotehost portnumber to my buddies and having them use nc -l portnumber| tar xz.

just a thought...

[zogger]

...I can't answer your question exactly, no frame of reference (neither a young guy nor work in an office...), BUT...I have noticed in meatspace that orders come from the top down, but the WORK comes from the bottom up, and it most alway gets a little morphed on the way.

My best guess is that what the young folks want will eventually be reality in the workplace, as they move up the ladder, they'll haul their opinions and desires and accumulated skills, etc with them. Plus, you'll get the quirks of the generation.

Hmm, example. Went to the bank the other day. The teller was a young guy, who had a couple visible tattoos (one on his hand and another creeping over his collar on his neck) and an eyebrow piercing.

Now, I can tell ya this wouldn't have been reality back a few decades ago, not in a *bank*.

So, given todays popularity with IM and younger folks, eventually they'll get the security bugs straightened out and it will become more mainstream. All it really is is real time no-lag email when you distill it down.

Why has NOBODY mentioned gyach-e ???

[gt_swagger]

I agree, the lack of file transfer... webcam support... and voice chat support is a HUGE deterant for many people I know who hate Windows but just aren't satisfied with things like this on Linux. There is only ONE... count 'em... ONE Linux app that can do webcam/voice chat... and that's gyach-e. I use it for webcam/voice over Yahoo!. It also supports Yahoo! Chat. Sadly it's a very cluttered UI... and does not support any protocol other than Yahoo!. Also, if you have some bizarro webcam... give it up, it will likely not work. Installing is difficult.... pray there is a RPM package. Gyach-e isn't even IN PORTAGE. If you're lucky and on x86; you can extract a binary package straight into your root filesystem; and that's the EASY way to install.

Is this the BEST the F/OSS community can do in this regard? The UI/abilities to talk on GAIM/Kopete are great.... however the extra features.. the ones that really make for a great experience talking to distant friend x like webcam and voice etc.... might as well be non-existant on Linux... and that's a shame.

Last I saw; the best effort to create mainstream cam/voice outside of the incredibly complicated gyach-e is a fork of GAIM they hope to back-port when they are done. It's not doing so hot last I tried it out (~8 months ago). I know one of the BIG hurdles with getting cam/voice to work seamlessly in Linux is standards, but thankfully ALSA/Video4Linux are emerging as standards (in a dirty off the record nearly everybody has to migrate to them sort of way).

As a Gentoo user .... it took gyach-e to be able to delete my Windows XP partition. I simply *had to have* cam/voice for communicating with distant people close to me personally. I imagine I am by no means the only one who feels this way.

There is ***ALOT*** of room for improvement in this area on Linux. It's the real black eye of an otherwise lovely experience for people trying out Linux for the first time.

Re:Why has NOBODY mentioned gyach-e ???

[The MESMERIC]

I mentioned it - but got confused thought the name was pyChat or something.

Still, the source code is in Python.
So it shouldn't be impossibly difficult to inspect that and copy into Gaim.

I mean it is there, and Python unlike C++ is not the most cryptic of languages.

But then again it is not the easiest either - but it *is* readable; you can decipher better what might be happening.

I hope the source code is available.

The one thing keeping my girlfriend from linux

[sanermind]

The one thing keeping my girlfriend from loving linux... is that the instant messaging support is lousy. Simple text messinging, sure... but she wants to use video chat on yahoo instant messenger and the like...

Re:The one thing keeping my girlfriend from linux

[The MESMERIC]

dump her.
no girlfriend of mine would ever sneer at Linux, how dare they?
I'd force them to recompile the kernel.

What you mean, "no wonder you are now single" ?

gaim developers must read Slashdot... gaim 2.0

[DrIdiot]

http://gaim.sourceforge.net/index.php?id=162

Lots of new features in the new upcoming version of gaim. Read the list yourself. It's mouth watering.

Well, I guess

[SeaFox]

Don't make a person who wants to use Linux have to leave behind a method or style of communication

I promise not to make them stop using LOTR refrences, and I like the Yoda voice bits.

Mod this post funny, you will.

please MOD PARENT UP

[Anonymous Coward]

pseudo-mod: "+3 Insightful" or "+3 cuts through all the Linux-is/is not and IM-is/is not BS with a real world example that does a much better job than the original article did of illustrating what the actual issue is and why it matters in Linux's never ending quest to be `Desktop ready'".

It's about convenience

[RealNecator]

It's all about convenience. There is nothing more convenient than drag&drop a file to your mate around the world -- just without starting another application and having everything configured the right way. Not everybody has a always-on internet line, so most probably they also don't have a webserver running, have their IP memorized (or use Dynamic DNS) ... and setting up VPN is a pain in the ass, what will it be for just ONE file?

You could also do machine code, but somehow people like higher languages more ... may be they are more convenient -- just a little bit ;-).

Re:It's about convenience

[twitter]

There is nothing more convenient than drag&drop a file to your mate around the world -- just without starting another application and having everything configured the right way.

There's nothing less convenient than setting up a windoze box. Getting the dozens of programs that make it useful from dozens of sources and hoping and praying that they all are still there and still work together, ugh. Setting up your preferences for your crappy single screen GUI. I don't even want to start to talk about dial up through a winmodem, which never works long. All of these things have to be done frequently when your OS has a 12 minute half life on any network.

All so you can drag that ONE file? Give me a break, you can keep it.

Not everybody has a always-on internet line, so most probably they also don't have a webserver running, have their IP memorized (or use Dynamic DNS) ... and setting up VPN is a pain in the ass, what will it be for just ONE file?

Actually more people do have that kind of connection now. You don't have to memorize an IP address if you make yourself a bookmark and all the servers work out of the box. What could be easier than that?

Oh yeah, getting the hell spammed out of you with popups and emoticons. I'm sold on that. Tomorrow, I'm going right out to buy XP for all six of the PCs in my house. It will only cost me six hundred bucks or so. Then I can start my Windoze eXPerience dragging and dropping files through my mighty winmodem. Thanks!

Re:It's about convenience

[RealNecator]

Denying advantages (and ignoring disadvantages) is a kind of lying in your own pocket.
It IS more convinent to drag&drop a file to your mate. No sense on discussing that.

But somehow it seems to me, that you got the topic wrong: It's not about Winows vs. Linux (or UNIX or whatever) it is just about convenience -- and convenience wins.

It is NOT convenient to set up a ftp-server. It is not conveniant to cope the file to the server, then get the rigt URL, send it to your mate, who in turn fires up his browser (ok, normally automatically) to download the file.
It's NOT conveniant to first register with dyndns because you have dynamic IPs.
It's not conveniant for your mate to do the same, if he wants to resend you something in return, to do all this also -- especially, if your 'mate' on the other side is your grandma, who is happy if she is able to hit the right icon ;-)
But it IS conveniant to just drag&drop a file simply on your mate, and he gets it (in theory).

Don't get me wrong again ... most of my time I'm using UNIX and Linux machines. I'm having my own http and ftp-server. I'm doing things like you suggest, but it is NOT as convenient as drag&drop.

Re:It's about convenience

[Anonymous Coward]

Moderators: Please note that "twitter" is a known fanatical sycophant whose obnoxious offtopic rants are legend here on Slashdot. It doesn't matter what the topic is, he'll find a way to scrape in some pointless Microsoft bashing. While nobody expects us to love Microsoft in any way, his particularly tepid style of calling anyone he replies to "troll" or "liar" or "fanboy" because he happens to disagree with whatever they're saying is well documented and should not be rewarded. If anything, twitter is the type of person that should not be part of the open source/free software community. He is an anathema to all that is good about free software.

I'm posting this so that you (the moderator) have some context to consider twitter and not mod him up whenever he posts his filler preformatted rants about installing Knoppix or Mepis or whatever that unfortunately get him karma every single time and allow him to continue posting his trademark toxic crap (read on) day in and day out. You may consider this a troll - I consider it community service. And I ain't kidding.

If you're a /. subscriber, I invite you to look through some of his posting history. I guarantee that you'll be hard pressed to find someone that is more "out there" than twitter. You'll also probably notice he's got quite an AC following. Don't just read his posts, make sure you go through the replies.

To get an idea of what I'm talking about, check this post out. This is an article about email disclaimers. The parent of the post is complaining about the ads in the linked page and so on, and twitter actually goes off on a rant to blame it on Microsoft and recommend Lynx, because "is teh free".

Here's another. In this post twitter not only calls the OP a troll but attempts to "tell it like it is" while making some vague argument about "GNU". Yes, if you're confused, you're not alone. The reply (modded +4) proceeds to simply destroy his bogus argument. You will notice he did not reply. This is what some people call "drive-by advocacy". A sort of I'll just leave you with my thoughts here and move on to the next flamebait kind of deal. In fact, he almost never replies because he knows that his fanatical arguments simply do not hold up to any sort of discussion. It's not that he's chosen the wrong cause - he's just going at it in a completely wrong way.

Here's that drive-by advocacy and FUD in motion: twitter goes on about some topic and then drops the usual "oh and M$ is teh evil" because "WMP phones home" or some such. Called on his FUD, he then claims that WMP stores every song and movie you've ever played in a file, somewhere. Pressed further, he just sort of slithers out of sight, his FUD-spreading complete. This is not about some Microsoft technology that nobody likes anyway; it's about lying for the sake of lying. Way too many of his posts are exactly like this one.

More? Just read though this post and the subsequent replies. I guess this stands on its own. Or these two. Or this one. Or this one.

Still not convinced? This is what twitter considers "humour" while going about his daily "M$" routine.

M

Well..

[ledow]

There are a lot of people moaning that IM's in Linux don't support voice, video etc. and I think that quite a few are missing the obvious.

Firstly, most Linux systems are behind an iptables firewall. This has to be poked and prodded or have iptables connection/NAT helper modules in order to let most video/audio into the computer. Text-based messaging works perfectly without any extra config. More and more systems are behind NAT's, because of the advent of broadband and broadband routers (especially popular now that they include wireless).

Being behind a NAT can stop quite a lot of this stuff working unless you want to start editing your settings (way beyond the average computer user). Programs like Skype etc. help in that they automatically traverse NAT without any sort of help but things like MSN Messenger can be a pain in the backside. Yes, some routers will support UPnP but let's not even start on the troubles that is likely to cause.

It then becomes a question, not of why doesn't the IM program do it but of why is it made so damn difficult for the program authors? If it wasn't for closed-source and sometimes closed-spec systems using all different protocols that change constantly, drastically and without warning, expecting connections over all different ports with IP embedded in all sorts of packets, not being able to navigate NAT without some security disaster like UPnP (which has little support in any system other than Microsoft's) and being used less and less in favour of protocols that "just work".

I've never used video over the internet. It's slow, clunky, bandwidth-hogging, a pain to configure, doesn't NAT very well if at all, needs extra hardware and has all the advantages of a videophone, i.e. none. This is why videophones haven't sold well either, despite being around for many years. Voice is a slightly different issue and can be quite useful and popular (a friend I know uses Skype to phone her dad who lives across the road and my girlfriend is interested in using it to talk to her dad in Kuwait.)

I mentioned to my girlfriend the possibility of over-the-net communication and she was very keen (currently 70p / minute to phone Kuwait from the UK) but has absolutely no interest whatsoever in video, neither has her computer-illiterate father who would have to set up all sorts of stuff (including getting broadband in a foreign country) in order to get video working, whereas a microphone and a volume setting is well within his knowledge.

I can't imagine that, as a percentage, many people at all use video. A few more probably use voice but I should imagine (at a complete guess), 95% or more (by connection, not by bandwidth) of IM is pure text. I work in schools and text works over the school networks, voice and video do not. The kids only ever use MSN as text because even at home they can't be bothered to get video working when text needs no configuration. One or two have played with voice but so many of their friends are text-only too that nobody uses it on a day-to-day basis (videophone syndrome again).

In fact, the only place most teenagers would use voice comms would be inside their games, counterstrike etc., where again it "just works". How many of them use those games on Linux? Zilch. How many people who use Linux would actually use video - only a few and them be geeks who know how to get stuff wokring anyway. How many would use voice? Maybe a few more. In the end, though, Linux isn't mainstream and Linux IM's are constantly playing catchup through no fault of their own.

There's no point having Linux voice/video IM (an awful lot of development work just to get the tiniest of results) until some standards are adopted by everyone and stablised, there are mechanisms in place to help the packets traverse properly, ordinary people actually start using Linux on the desktop and they start demanding it.

All well and good, but who cares?

[VxJasonxV]

1) This feature has existed in Y! Messenger for ages. It is new only to MSN because of MSN/Y! linking their clients (see story one day back).
2) I absolutely DO NOT WANT THIS FEATURE IN MY IM CLIENT.
It's unproductive, it's retarded, and I don't want my window position to be subject to someone else's 'keen sense' of clicking a 'special button'.

I know the point of this is that without these 'special features' the Open Source World and Operating Systems look increasingly bland, but come on now.

The real bottom line is that you use the tools you need to accomplish whatever you need.
I use gaim for everything but Jabber (PSI for Jabber .o/), and I can easily keep in touch with all of my friends, without the bells and whistles.
It's an *instant messaging client* and it works for exactly that.

As an aside, I tried out AIM Triton on a Windows box I use for gaming.
Impressive? Sure.
Prettier than before? Very.
However, I am now bothered about privacy problems with 'Plaxo' and I have ANOTHER crappy Web Browser installed.

Time to wave bye bye to first party bullsh*t.

Re:After read TFA...

[xtracto]

Yea sure... those TOS are broken anyway:

Charging others to use the Service either directly or indirectly.

So what? every Internet Coffee is breaking the TOS when they charge high school kids that use their computers to chat?

Or what about BT (British Telecom) and its public internet kiosks? they are also "indirectly" charging me when I want to chat with others.

Nope, I guess he is violating MS TOS, as all of the above companies but MS does not appear to give a dime. And it allows him to do something that he wont be able to do with current OSS technology because nor him or the people at Mexico have the time and patience to learn to use the 5 programs you have to use in Linux to get the same result (video+text+audio) you get with messenger.

Re:After read TFA...

[Trelane]

And it allows him to do something that he wont be able to do with current OSS technology because nor him or the people at Mexico have the time and patience to learn to use the 5 programs you have to use in Linux to get the same result (video+text+audio) you get with messenger.

You are wrong, as I very quickly sketched out in the last paragraph of my post, but that's ok; you don't care enough about being right and are content to wallow in ignorance. Things will eventually come back to bite you firmly in the hindquarters some day, and that probably (hopefully) won't affect me.

uPnP in Gaim CVS, will be in 2.0

[Ignominious]

Hi,
One of the Google Summer of Code projects implemented uPnP traversal. According to the gaim news page it works and is in CVS. It'll be released in Gaim v2.0.