Exactly my thoughts when I heard this. I once implemented half a dozen pretty different payment APIs into a web page. There are only two ways to make this secure:
1. Direct the user to PayPal, and then let PayPal direct him back, sending a special encrypted session id and/or data forth and back. 2. Embedding a Java applet in the page, which has a certificate, and so can communicate directly with PayPal (encrypted) and your server (also encrypted). Then call a Javascript function, to load the next page, where, depending on the server session state, it shows if you payed or not. (Can also be done right in the applet.) The nice thing here is, that the browser and the JVM can build a strong separation between the page and the embedded applet, essentially sandboxing them.
I prefer the first variant though, because 1. It does not require and plug-ins, and even runs in Lynx. 2. With payment providers offering to brand their payment page in the originating site’s style (while still making clear that this is the payment provider’s page), there is no point in embedding it in the own page anyway.
Mind you that I implemented both solutions back in 2003/4. So this is very old news, except apparently for PayPal, who seem to have a NIH syndrome.
Its crucial that the internet remain fully open !!!! Its thats simple.
Nah. Not even. If only one single stream of communication remains open, that’s enough to pipe the whole internet trough. If we have, we pipe every tcp/ip packet trough twitter. If we have, we form direct wlan-to-wlan nets. We do not even need providers in any city of reasonable size. Soon with mobile phones, this will even become bigger. In theory, you can use any mobile phone as a gateway.
The can/box, and it won’t ever close again. It’s that simple.
Of course they will care. Because what is the point of ACTA? More money. From people who do not have more money.
So it creates financial pressure. And as humans always seek the easiest (most efficient!) way, they will naturally be pressed towards CC and more secretive file sharing (which will become way easier to set up).
ACTA is the classic “tighten your grip, until you are left with nothing”.
There is no way to win this, for the content industry. They can only lose. They get to choose the way it ends. Nothing more. If they want to choose the faster dead (ACTA), let them.:)
My view is, that the Internet by its very definition does not make it possible for such a treaty to be any more that a pipe dream.
We already have darknets, wich are way beyond the grasp of any legislation. They would have to literally shut down the internet, to even stop it for more than a month. After that everyone would just have a personal net with all the wlan nodes around, completely and literally routing around the net. Everyone who knows how to do it, will do it. And everybody else will ask those, to do it for them. Even if that becomes illegal, it will become like selling weed. (A war long lost.) But it won’t ever stop. Because inside, everybody knows what is right and wrong. And that ACTA is not right. Even the hypocrites who say the opposite, secretly use Bittorrent.
Until there is nothing else left for them, than to give up.
First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win.
There is no choice anymore. You can’t go anywhere for asylum. The worst things that can be global, are governments, and police!
In my eyes this is heading straight to the end of all freedom by total global group-think. Either you follow it, or you go to jail (or die).
I can’t imagine anything worse. Ever. Even a nuclear war and being raped can’t beat that. Because with those things you at least die some day. (Which is a way of becoming free again.)
Yeah, because having the “right” to watch it, streamed either from them or out of a encrypted container, as long as they show their “great benevolence” really is the same thing than actually owning something, and having it on your own hard disk forever.
And by the way: Hulu is not accessible outside the US, you insensitive clod! Also most shows that I watch are not even available at all in my country. And if there is a streaming website, it just tells me that access is not allowed from my country, for no reason other than them being too stupid to finance the data transfer with a tiny PayPal payment (or find an advertiser for my target group, wich is worse but still...)
Uuum, while I hear you, please don’t overgeneralize. There are many retards in any country. And there are great people in any country too.
The not so great people in the US just happen to be arrogant. (Funnily, just like the not so great French people. Which should make them think. ^^)
(I’m Luxemburgish [Ran over by the Nazis in what? A day?;] with one half Afghani [So my plane would most likely directly be redirected to a US concentration camp.] genes. Yet I still don’t think is such stupid absolute terms.)
I knew that some people would recognize themselves in “needy loser, who caves to every shit” (Especially in relation to women.), and then try to repress it, because the resulting realizations of how bad their lives are, would crush them. ^^
If I would have actually wanted to help those, I would have written it in a different (swallowable) way. But since I don’t care... ^^
What’s also funny, is that some (especially those) people still think that you would get power and women, by caving and saying yes all the time (just to be finally loved). Which is of course absurd. Except perhaps on opposite day. ^^ But I did not expect a geek site’s users to even remotely grasp this
Your disagreement essentially just fortifies my position. ^^
If some XPath queries give me the data? Why not? I don’t care. I also take binary formats that I get the spec of and that are parseable just as easily... if there is a point to it. (E.g. 3d scanner data.)
If it’s not possible to get the data out in a reasonable amount of time, then that’s another unrelated problem, of someone creating a mess. That’s just as bad when it’s a plain text file.:)
You really think I have to defend myself against someone called “WegianWarrior” who by his statement blatantly shows no understanding of the subject? LOL
And even that does not solve it. As was shown, it is easy, to modify a compile in a way, that even compiling itself with it, results in the evil code being in the new compiler, and all programs compiled with it.
So first you some verified machine code, that creates the first real compiler, which creates a second more powerful compiler, and so on, until you end up with your final compiler and program. Only then would you be able to really trust it.
The only problem: You would also have to verify the hardware itself. And not trust any hardware, or wetware, that interfaces with it. On top of that, someone then could still change that trusted system. So you essentially have to put it in a safe in a secure location, and constantly monitor any possible attack.
Only one compromise, and you would have to start over.
The other solution is trust. Saves time and work, but has a potential high risk involved. Your choice.:)
My reaction to someone sending me a MS Office document:
I’m sorry, but we do not accept files in proprietary formats. Additionally, we decided not to work with software from criminal companies. We accept files in all open standard formats, including, but not limited to: PDF, all Open Document formats, RTF, all XML formats, PS, TXT, PNG, JPEG, TIFF, WAV, OGG, FLAC, MKV, OGM, etc.
I”m no needy loser, who caves to every shit. I have limits of the behavior that I will or will not accept. And because I’m clear about that, I don’t have to.
I think the problem is your definition of “one”. In fact, if everyone is selfish, exactly one wins. But if they work together, they may all together win more. Maybe even more than what they would have won by being selfish. It also depends on the resources available.
But “one” can really be everything, from the whole planet, over whole humanity, over a whole social group, down to one individual, or even just a part of it. And so, one “one” winning or everybody winning, essentially is the same thing.
About 15 years ago, I read an article about, how scientists found out, that the human brain dramatically changed over the past 40 years (from back then, so 55 years).
The change is, that we developed a new system, to cope with information overload. Old people have (or would have, if they still lived) massive problems to cope with e.g. the typical blinking and animating downtown advertisement overkill of a Asian metropolis... or the typical ad-laden website.
We have learned to focus on one thing, and ignore all the noise around us. One side effect of this, is that now we are more prone to doing contradicting things. Like talking about how we care about whales and nature, while throwing trash on the street at the same moment.
So I have no doubt, that we will cope very well with that added overload. By simply adding better filters and a stronger focus.
The only question is, if those side-effects get stronger, and what that means for our society. But I doubt that if this gets close to creating problems, we won’t adapt to it too.
I bet you are one of those “web developers” who “learned” it by reading a book while driving a cab, and know think you know everything.
XHTML was created, to finally put an end to the retarded mess that is HTML, and to have something professional. It was made, so that — just like with every other real compiler/interpreter — every time you fuck up, it fails to render the site at all, and shows you the error(s). If you can’t handle that, you should not write websites in the first place!
The only thing that HTML4s forgiveness brought us, is a messy trash of a non-standard with huge interpreters trying to make sense of that crap you call HTML. Boy was I happy that there was no XHTML 1.1 Transitional.
You have it the wrong way: Actually, nobody cares what those websites still are written in. It being built into the browser, does not mean you have to use it!
What it means, is that we professionals have a professional language, to do professional things! Not your spaghetti code shit! Which saves us time, and lets us work like professionals!
I have worked in that area since 2000. And I was one of the best in the world. I wrote AJAX, two years before the term or the API were even invented. And I want HTML (without the X) to DIE, DIE, and DIE! Everyone who complains about strictness being useless, shall get a huge slap right in the face!
I hope I never have to use a site that is vomited out of your brain!
Slashdot Mirror
Let me guess: In the end, you n00ked it. ;)
Exactly my thoughts when I heard this. I once implemented half a dozen pretty different payment APIs into a web page.
There are only two ways to make this secure:
1. Direct the user to PayPal, and then let PayPal direct him back, sending a special encrypted session id and/or data forth and back.
2. Embedding a Java applet in the page, which has a certificate, and so can communicate directly with PayPal (encrypted) and your server (also encrypted). Then call a Javascript function, to load the next page, where, depending on the server session state, it shows if you payed or not. (Can also be done right in the applet.) The nice thing here is, that the browser and the JVM can build a strong separation between the page and the embedded applet, essentially sandboxing them.
I prefer the first variant though, because
1. It does not require and plug-ins, and even runs in Lynx.
2. With payment providers offering to brand their payment page in the originating site’s style (while still making clear that this is the payment provider’s page), there is no point in embedding it in the own page anyway.
Mind you that I implemented both solutions back in 2003/4. So this is very old news, except apparently for PayPal, who seem to have a NIH syndrome.
Infrared light is not sufficient to get you clean.
The same is true for a mud bath. (Which gets you dirty.) ;)
Or an acid bath. (Which gets you very very very clean.
But it’s still called a bath.
NASA UNWISE Satellite Blasts Into Earth.
Comment: “I’m more of a down-to-earth kind of satellite.”
More opposite news here on the opposite network. Stay tuned!
Its crucial that the internet remain fully open !!!! Its thats simple.
Nah. Not even. If only one single stream of communication remains open, that’s enough to pipe the whole internet trough. If we have, we pipe every tcp/ip packet trough twitter. If we have, we form direct wlan-to-wlan nets. We do not even need providers in any city of reasonable size. Soon with mobile phones, this will even become bigger. In theory, you can use any mobile phone as a gateway.
The can/box, and it won’t ever close again. It’s that simple.
Of course they will care. Because what is the point of ACTA? More money.
From people who do not have more money.
So it creates financial pressure. And as humans always seek the easiest (most efficient!) way, they will naturally be pressed towards CC and more secretive file sharing (which will become way easier to set up).
ACTA is the classic “tighten your grip, until you are left with nothing”.
There is no way to win this, for the content industry. They can only lose. :)
They get to choose the way it ends. Nothing more.
If they want to choose the faster dead (ACTA), let them.
My view is, that the Internet by its very definition does not make it possible for such a treaty to be any more that a pipe dream.
We already have darknets, wich are way beyond the grasp of any legislation. They would have to literally shut down the internet, to even stop it for more than a month. After that everyone would just have a personal net with all the wlan nodes around, completely and literally routing around the net. Everyone who knows how to do it, will do it. And everybody else will ask those, to do it for them. Even if that becomes illegal, it will become like selling weed. (A war long lost.) But it won’t ever stop.
Because inside, everybody knows what is right and wrong. And that ACTA is not right. Even the hypocrites who say the opposite, secretly use Bittorrent.
Until there is nothing else left for them, than to give up.
First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win.
There is no choice anymore. You can’t go anywhere for asylum. The worst things that can be global, are governments, and police!
In my eyes this is heading straight to the end of all freedom by total global group-think. Either you follow it, or you go to jail (or die).
I can’t imagine anything worse. Ever. Even a nuclear war and being raped can’t beat that. Because with those things you at least die some day. (Which is a way of becoming free again.)
He just tried to create the Chinese wall of text. Impenetrable to any human! ^^
While snopes.com is an entertaining idea, it is false.
Of course now we have deflation. Every time the banks have the money, it’s a given, that it raises in worth.
Every time we have it, it’s a given that it falls in worth.
And the difference is free work, at our cost, and at the benefit of the banks.
That’s the whole point of money that is not based on gold.
Yeah, because those people will all even own one million dollars. ^^
Yeah, because having the “right” to watch it, streamed either from them or out of a encrypted container, as long as they show their “great benevolence” really is the same thing than actually owning something, and having it on your own hard disk forever.
And by the way: Hulu is not accessible outside the US, you insensitive clod!
Also most shows that I watch are not even available at all in my country. And if there is a streaming website, it just tells me that access is not allowed from my country, for no reason other than them being too stupid to finance the data transfer with a tiny PayPal payment (or find an advertiser for my target group, wich is worse but still...)
Uuum, while I hear you, please don’t overgeneralize. There are many retards in any country. And there are great people in any country too.
The not so great people in the US just happen to be arrogant. (Funnily, just like the not so great French people. Which should make them think. ^^)
(I’m Luxemburgish [Ran over by the Nazis in what? A day? ;] with one half Afghani [So my plane would most likely directly be redirected to a US concentration camp.] genes. Yet I still don’t think is such stupid absolute terms.)
Wanna know the funniest thing about this?
I knew that some people would recognize themselves in “needy loser, who caves to every shit” (Especially in relation to women.), and then try to repress it, because the resulting realizations of how bad their lives are, would crush them. ^^
If I would have actually wanted to help those, I would have written it in a different (swallowable) way. But since I don’t care... ^^
What’s also funny, is that some (especially those) people still think that you would get power and women, by caving and saying yes all the time (just to be finally loved). Which is of course absurd. Except perhaps on opposite day. ^^
But I did not expect a geek site’s users to even remotely grasp this
Your disagreement essentially just fortifies my position. ^^
If some XPath queries give me the data? Why not? I don’t care.
I also take binary formats that I get the spec of and that are parseable just as easily... if there is a point to it. (E.g. 3d scanner data.)
If it’s not possible to get the data out in a reasonable amount of time, then that’s another unrelated problem, of someone creating a mess. That’s just as bad when it’s a plain text file. :)
You really think I have to defend myself against someone called “WegianWarrior” who by his statement blatantly shows no understanding of the subject? LOL
And even that does not solve it. As was shown, it is easy, to modify a compile in a way, that even compiling itself with it, results in the evil code being in the new compiler, and all programs compiled with it.
So first you some verified machine code, that creates the first real compiler, which creates a second more powerful compiler, and so on, until you end up with your final compiler and program. Only then would you be able to really trust it.
The only problem: You would also have to verify the hardware itself. And not trust any hardware, or wetware, that interfaces with it.
On top of that, someone then could still change that trusted system. So you essentially have to put it in a safe in a secure location, and constantly monitor any possible attack.
Only one compromise, and you would have to start over.
The other solution is trust. Saves time and work, but has a potential high risk involved. Your choice. :)
My reaction to someone sending me a MS Office document:
I’m sorry, but we do not accept files in proprietary formats. Additionally, we decided not to work with software from criminal companies.
We accept files in all open standard formats, including, but not limited to: PDF, all Open Document formats, RTF, all XML formats, PS, TXT, PNG, JPEG, TIFF, WAV, OGG, FLAC, MKV, OGM, etc.
I”m no needy loser, who caves to every shit. I have limits of the behavior that I will or will not accept. And because I’m clear about that, I don’t have to.
Same thing with women. ^^
I think the problem is your definition of “one”. In fact, if everyone is selfish, exactly one wins. But if they work together, they may all together win more. Maybe even more than what they would have won by being selfish. It also depends on the resources available.
But “one” can really be everything, from the whole planet, over whole humanity, over a whole social group, down to one individual, or even just a part of it.
And so, one “one” winning or everybody winning, essentially is the same thing.
Or that yer puny humans, caught in ludicrous four dimensions, would be able to do such things!
And one of ’em isn’t even rolled out! *ha ha ha ha ha* *wipes tear*
Greets,
Pirate Zombie Cthulhu Ninja, the IIIrd.
First Rank Transdimensional Overlord
About 15 years ago, I read an article about, how scientists found out, that the human brain dramatically changed over the past 40 years (from back then, so 55 years).
The change is, that we developed a new system, to cope with information overload.
Old people have (or would have, if they still lived) massive problems to cope with e.g. the typical blinking and animating downtown advertisement overkill of a Asian metropolis... or the typical ad-laden website.
We have learned to focus on one thing, and ignore all the noise around us.
One side effect of this, is that now we are more prone to doing contradicting things. Like talking about how we care about whales and nature, while throwing trash on the street at the same moment.
So I have no doubt, that we will cope very well with that added overload. By simply adding better filters and a stronger focus.
The only question is, if those side-effects get stronger, and what that means for our society.
But I doubt that if this gets close to creating problems, we won’t adapt to it too.
Wow, is the site really gone? Wait, here are the new club rules:
http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html
Yeah, because all four of you users who actually use Chrome, and because one of them actually cares... Riiight... :P
I’m sorry??
I bet you are one of those “web developers” who “learned” it by reading a book while driving a cab, and know think you know everything.
XHTML was created, to finally put an end to the retarded mess that is HTML, and to have something professional. It was made, so that — just like with every other real compiler/interpreter — every time you fuck up, it fails to render the site at all, and shows you the error(s).
If you can’t handle that, you should not write websites in the first place!
The only thing that HTML4s forgiveness brought us, is a messy trash of a non-standard with huge interpreters trying to make sense of that crap you call HTML.
Boy was I happy that there was no XHTML 1.1 Transitional.
You have it the wrong way: Actually, nobody cares what those websites still are written in. It being built into the browser, does not mean you have to use it!
What it means, is that we professionals have a professional language, to do professional things! Not your spaghetti code shit! Which saves us time, and lets us work like professionals!
I have worked in that area since 2000. And I was one of the best in the world. I wrote AJAX, two years before the term or the API were even invented. And I want HTML (without the X) to DIE, DIE, and DIE!
Everyone who complains about strictness being useless, shall get a huge slap right in the face!
I hope I never have to use a site that is vomited out of your brain!