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French Military Contributes To Thunderbird 3
fredboboss sends news about Mozilla's email client Thunderbird 3, whose release we noted last week. "Thunderbird 3 contains code from the French military, which decided the open source product was more secure than Microsoft's rival Outlook. The French government is beginning to move to other open source software, including Linux instead of Windows and OpenOffice instead of Microsoft Office. Thunderbird 3 used some of the code from TrustedBird, a generalized and co-branded version of Thunderbird with security extensions built by the French military."
Thunderbird just surrendered to Outlook on my computer. Now it's even helping Outlook import old messages.
First :)
yay Thunderbird
about time someone stood up to outlook
I would guess that it means a lot for a country's defense administration to move over to Open Source. I've never heard of TrustedBird before this, but it seems a WHOLE lot more secure than Outlook is. I use Thunderbird personally.
... although I have doubts about its security, given the military involved
I'll just go on with enigmail.
Colorless green Cthulhu waits dreaming furiously.
Take a look at some of the footage of those French fighter jocks doing terrain avoidance at a few feet high. Incredible.
As for thunderbird the email program, I like some things about 3, and not others. I'm glad the devs allow you to switch the old toolbar back on. Much better than the Mozilla Firefox attitude of forcing you into changes you don't want to make.
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
For sale: WW II era French rifle. Never used, only dropped once.
At least some government agencies seem to understand that open source CAN be secure, stable and worthwhile. More power to them I say, they're quite forward-thinking on those matters it seems.
If only more could see that! With every new user, especially military organizations and government agencies, there are more bug fixes, more patches and more useful features added into the open source projects they use. That in turn makes the projects more appealing, more competitive and generally better, which closes the loop by enticing more to adopt it. We just need to get the ball rolling and, most importantly, to break old notions of open source being garage-geek-type material; I think we've seen all around us that we've evolved from that point.
...helps Firefox run...
Ba-dum Tish...
I'll be here all week, try the lamb.
Doing away with all of the potential HTML, javascript, Java, Flash etc vulnerabilities by having a forced plain text only mode would sure help with security and privacy issues.
Score one for the French. Proprietary software does not belong on the computer systems of any significant (ie, state or national) government. Access to source code is necessary in order to ensure that secrets remain secret and the software is up to any custom tasks the government might require.
;)
This is a letter written by a representative of Peru's government to a representative of Microsoft in 2002, explaining to MS exactly why the government feels that free software is necessary on their computers. Not only does it provide some insightful reasons as to why they're using FOSS, but you get a chance to laugh at the Microsoft rep's arguments.
That Anonymous Coward guy is pretty annoying. Can we have the government censor him or something?
All sorts of good space news. SpaceShip Two is getting ready to launch. And now Thunderbird 3 is about to be released, with some good code from the French Military Program.
Thunderbirds are Go!
why it keeps quitting unexpectedly whenever I receive emails from Germany ;-).
TraceMonkey, SeaMonkey... SurrenderMonkey?
While technically military the "Gendarmerie Nationale" aren't exactly soldiers, from my understanding limited of how France works (le sange et sur l'arble?) they are cops who basically do all the shit that municipal police don't (although organized investigations are done by national police force), these guys do the running around, traffic,borders, small villages, etc.
It's good to see the French contributing to International Rescue.
The French Government really seem to get the hang of OSS every depeartment seems focused on using OSS like their entire justice department going ubuntu http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2009/03/french-police-saves-millions-of-euros-by-adopting-ubuntu.ars and unlike the Germans(+1 million failed projects) or Dutch(going Microsoft everywhere despite promises and even laws(!) to go open source) etc they actually seem to be making progress
Dyslexics are teople poo
...know the software your enemy is using - then you can know your enemy.
What this world is coming to - is for you and me to decide.
Gee, I wonder what this Mr. Roques' bias might be...
Cheers,
"What in the name of Fats Waller is that?"
"A four-foot prune."
If there is one thing that is certain in this world, its that if someone says "The French" or "France" within hearing of any US Citizen, the immediate response will be an endless string of "Surrender" or "SurrenderMonkey" Jokes.
Caveat: I am not French just to clarify that. I am (English) Canadian, and I don't even particularly like the French myself.
It gets awfully tiring to be reminded of just how fucking bigotted the US is in this way. You should get over yourselves already.
Yes, the French got their asses kicked in WWII, whatever. Any nation invaded by Germany at that time would have suffered the same fate (and many of them did). You got your asses kicked in Vietnam, even if you don't want to admit it. You pulled your forces out before anyone had to surrender of course.
All these jokes serve to accomplish is to remind me just how fucking ignorant, narrow minded, bigotted and offensive the US can be at times. They make you look like nothing more than a nation of assholes. Then you wonder why the peoples of many other nations find Americans offensive.
Of course none of you seem to have enough education or enough wit to recall that during the Napoleonic period, France was the most respected and feared nation on earth. They conquered pretty much all of Europe and it took the combined might of England, The Austro-Hungarian Empire, Prussia, Russia and others to eventually defeat them after 20 years of warfare. At that point in time the US couldn't even carry out a successful invasion of Canada, and we (as the British) burnt the White House in response.
I for one would like to see this fucking "meme" be laid to rest. It was always present but seems to have been resurrected when the French decided not to commit forces to the first Gulf War (because it wasn't authorized by the UN I believe).
Now, queue all the responses from people calling me a "liberal", "faggot", "commie", "pinko" etc, because I criticized the US (I am none of those things by the way). What I am, is tired of seeing US citizens act like a bunch of fucking ignorant assholes, and then wondering why people think they are a bunch of fucking ignorant assholes :P
Yes, yes I have met many very decent and nice Americans, they just don't seem to post in response to their fellow citizens offensive shit that crops up like this every few days.
"The first time I got drunk, I got married. The second time I bought a chimpanzee, after that I stayed sober" Arian Seid
Am I the only one who read the headline and first thought of the old TV show?
I wishing the Lightning would get off their ass an contribute to Thunderbird 3.
Not going to call you a "liberal", "faggot", "commie", "pinko" etc but I will say you have a thin skin. There is a reason it's called a joke. Same reason we call Mac users gay and Southerners toothless.
--- You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad- Neal (not Cowboy) Boortz
NICE TRY. You can't restart a dead meme that easily, especially when the article is positive about France.
Mod parent DOWN.
Sometimes, a joke is just a joke. No strings attached, no intent to offend, no distaste for others, just a comment made in jest. The same people that make the surrender jokes will often make fun of their own nation just as quickly.
Try removing your head from your ass, you might see things a bit more clearly.
Well, you don't hear many jokes about Poland, The Netherlands or Belgium being invaded by the Germans. Perhaps the French history as a great nation and the cultural arrogance that comes from that makes them more of a valid target to joke about.
But with that said: the French were absolutely right about standing up to Bush against an unnecessary war. All they had to do was commit a symbolic number of troops to "fight" in some relatively peaceful outback region like other countries did. If only more people stood up to the false claims...
Now, years later, we know that the primary achievement of the whole Iraq war effort has been to transform their country from a secular dictatorship to a theocratic dictatorship. This at the mere cost of hundreds of billions of dollars, thousands of US military lives and tens of thousands of civilian lives.
So much for them Freedom Fries, eh...
see a Text Widget
They force you to upgrade?
Install Firefox 2 and see how often you get nagged to upgrade. Then there's the fact that security fixes are only released for the latest browser, extensions don't support the old version etc.
I'd love to have Firefox 1.0 co-exist with 3.0 but it'd be a pain in the neck to run with all the nagging.
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
I am pleasantly surprised it got modded up. I expected flame bait to be honest. The article is positive about France, but when I posted my response, the ONLY other responses were SurrenderMonkey jokes.
"The first time I got drunk, I got married. The second time I bought a chimpanzee, after that I stayed sober" Arian Seid
Perhaps somewhat off-topic but I read somewhere that all this French = weak stuff started as allied propaganda to explain why the Nazis managed to beat such a powerful (and it was a world power at the time) country so easily. The thinking (according to this article or whatnot) was to keep up morale after such a disastrous outcome by essentially claiming that any other nation would have managed to fight them off but that the French are weak and gave up without a fight. Naturally the real reason was the blitzkrieg tactics combined with bypassing the majority of the French and English (they too where out in force as well) army by going thru the Ardennes (a forest region that the allies thought was not practical to pass thru). Its worth noting as well that every other European country attacked (including Russia at the start) pretty much collapsed under the blitzkrieg.
Control is an illusion, order our comforting lie. From chaos, through chaos, into chaos we fly
... except the two dozen "surrender" jokes above your parent post suggest otherwise.
Where's that -1 Don't Care moderation...
That's an awful lot of pompous self satisfaction from someone who uses emoticons.
Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
I don't even particularly like the French myself.
So I guess you know every single one of them personally? Because if not, this statement would be chauvinist, maybe even racist. Which would make it only the worst part of a largely pointless rant.
most of what follows is true
I fail to see how anything on their list of features provides any more security over what can be obtained with a properly configured Exchange/Outlook system.
Being french and working with various agencies, I can give a few more information.
First, you should know that it's the military police (the gendarmerie) that switched to ubuntu, not the civilian police. The military have been using open source for years now and switching the gendarmerie is only one big step in a much bigger plan to move away from proprietary software. The justice department has not switched yet as far as I know.
On the civil departments side, there is a division (the DCSSI http://www.ssi.gouv.fr/archive/en/dcssi/index.html) that push for open source software and good practices in use by the government. All departments are ordered to follow those recommendations where it makes sense. They don't recommend to drop existing proprietary solutions unless it saves money. They do recommend new solutions to be open source though. It seems they changed their name again in the recent months though, but their mission statement remains the same: http://www.ssi.gouv.fr/site_rubrique88.html
Another impact this is having is the creation of various websites for public use. For example there is a website about computer security aimed to the general public: http://www.securite-informatique.gouv.fr/index.html
In the central government the move to open source is already well in progress. But I can't say it's the same nationwide, yet.
And there are jokes that are funny, and jokes which just suck.
They imposed ridiculous penalties on Germany after WW1 and allowed Germany to remilitarize, giving birth to Nazi Germany.
They defeated the British Army in the Revolutionary War and provided financial aid to the Continental Army, giving birth to the USA.
Basically the French are directly responsible for the two most hated nations in living memory.
[Patrick Stewart voice] Gods! What a moron! [/Patrick Stewart voice] If the French are to be blamed for anything after WWI, it is for being too *aggressive* against the Germans. They crippled the German economy with vengeful reparations. They invaded and occupied the Ruhr. If it hadn't been for the post-WWI aggression of the French, Adolph Hitler would most likely have remained a unknown, raving anti-Semite and an artistic and political failure.
Similar to the upcoming US election results
I'm tired of the rest of the world trying to tell US citizens what to believe. If you are so pissed off at us, then do something about it.
I think the US is the best country in the world, no exception. I don't give a shit in the least what anyone else thinks of that. I'm proud to be an American.
During the Napoleonic Era, France had the best armies in continental Europe; England dominated the seas. From the Wikipedia entry on the Battle of Trafalgar, "The British victory spectacularly confirmed the naval supremacy that Britain had established during the past century..."
I absolutely agree that the French surrender thing is stupid and juvenile. It needs to go away. There's some "The French always surrender," then we get comments like yours that are like "but the French saved you in the Revolutionary War" and so on. I'm sick of the whole damn thing.
I suppose you mean the War of 1812 when you mention the US losing to Canada. That's a retarded conclusion to make. First, we were primarily fighting Britain because of trade tensions because the British restricted trade to, of all countries, France. The war ended because both sides finally realized that there was no point in fighting.
A lot of people think that Vietnam was a huge "defeat." I'm not going to say that it wasn't, but we did accomplish some goals. Communist Vietnam never became a strong force in Asia, and didn't spread. We effectively contained Communism there. There were two goals in the Cold War: 1) don't allow Communism anywhere, and 2) if #1 fails, then contain it. We absolutely failed at #1, but #2 worked well. People will probably respond that we shouldn't have done anything to stop Communism; I agree that we probably should have stayed out, but the countries where we did stop Communism are markedly better off now, in particular North vs. South Korea.
You seem to be confused that all assholes are ignorant. I'm perfectly fine with being an asshole sometimes, especially when someone criticizes something of which I am proud.
I think that you are an ignorant, America-hating asshole that seems to be so pissed off because the US makes the rules for world. There are a lot of groups/countries that have hated the US over the years, none of them have done particularly well.
I read the title, and thought, holy crap, this new space program is going to kick ass!
The problem isn't the joke itself. The problem is that when it's a "joke" made by many Americans, it's made with complete ignorance.
I mean, many of these people can't even find France on a world map, even when it's labeled. They have absolutely no understanding about World War I or World War II, or any of the many armed conflicts that France fought in the centuries before the last. They don't even know of France's significant military involvement in the American Revolution.
Why would you want Flamebait? All that does is melt your igloo.
In other words, you have an inbuilt inferiority complex and are still a member of the Commonwealth (ergo, you answer to the UK, bitch).
This is more of a pathetic showing by the European powers than it is of French military prowess.
You're always welcome to try again. Elimination of Canada even with EU support (you're trying to join that faggot brigade, remember?) would take less than a month. You're a nation full of effeminate cowards.
If you want to see it laid to rest, then do not come to a site based in the US, Dr Hawking. You're dumber than a bag of hammers.
I'm not sure who you're speaking with, but the people I know do not care what the rest of you think. Quit putting words in our collective mouth. You're saying what you wish were happening, not what actually is happening. You Canucks have always had a peculiar version of the Aussie "tall poppy" syndrome with regard to the US.
Don't you have sites up there where you can discuss igloos, poutine, and moose fucking?
Btw, two other things: the Avro Arrow always was an overblown fictitious piece of shit (talk about vaporware), and the guy who played Joe Canadian immigrated to the US.
And.. I double dog dare you to come down to the states and run your mouth in public in the manner you've just ranted on here. Just be forewarned that we don't have universal health care.
Now, in all seriousness, if it makes you feel any better, the average USian doesn't think about Canada.. ever. You just don't matter that much. Keep sending the lumber, water, and oil down and you might not end up as the next US state.
Excuse me. Are you suggesting the French give up easy? Alright you win.
The military found Mozilla's open source design permitted France to build security extensions, while Microsoft's secret, proprietary software allowed no tinkering.
So the French Military do not seem to have this access to the source code that you are talking about. Do you have first hand knowledge of Microsoft sharing Outlook code with governments and allowing them to build modified versions?
Think global, act loco
Now, years later, we know that the primary achievement of the whole Iraq war effort has been to transform their country from a secular dictatorship to a theocratic dictatorship.
It's worth mentioning that most American foreign interventions before Iraq had been for the purpose of removing democratically elected politicians and replacing them with pro-US dictators. The missions don't always succeed, but the outcome is always disastrous for the inhabitants.
Next time a anyone mentions "liberating" a foreign country, think about the Philippines, Chile, Indonesia, El Salvador, Cuba, Nicaragua, Iran, Vietnam, Laos, Afghanistan, Guatemala, the Seminoles, and Haiti.
I've probably missed a few in there, but anyone with a grasp of US history with regard to foreign interventions should be quite skeptical of any claims of "liberation" or "promoting democracy" abroad.
1) Canadians make just as many jokes at the expense of the French as Americans do (I've lived in both countries and have heard it with my own ears)
2) I suggest you go here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War#UN_resolution and read up on the bucket load of resolutions passed by the UN authorizing actions taken during the first Gulf War
3) Stop being such a cliched Canadian, the US isn't to blame for everything.
Actually I think you'll find that Kiwis, Aussies and especially the Brits enjoy the "surrender monkey" theme just as much. All of us (including Canada of course) sent troops to France on D-Day so I think we're entitled to a little fun. Perhaps Canadians are just too polite - eh?
One of these days I'm moving to Theory - everything works there
Please, do NOT lump all of us Americans in the same group of smacktards who order "freedom fries" at the McDonalds in Wal-Mart while chugging Cokes the size of aquariums and riding around on the powered carts.
There are a lot of us who know about WWII, the French resistance who did a large part in getting the Germans out of their nation by supplying critical intel and paying for it with their lives.
There are also people who know about the fact that if it wasn't for the French, the US would be either a much smaller nation (Louisiana Purchase, anyone), or would not even exist as a nation in the first place, but remain as a British colony.
Oh, and presently, France is the only European nation that isn't taking the easy way out, surrendering their infrastructure to the former Soviet Union and basing their whole electric grid on Russian natural gas. People may sneer at French nuclear power, but they are energy independent and not having to throw bodies of their citizens to protect pipelines or war-torn areas of the world to keep the lights on and the cars moving.
It would be nice to take Americans through France. I'd love to take them not just through Paris, but through Normandy, and other areas of the country so the image of all France being full of bad mimes gets dumped on the ashbin of history.
Conversely, I'd also like to take Europeans through Texas so they don't think this state is full of drunk rednecks who cast roving eyes on nearby farm animals when their cousin isn't available.
the countries where we did stop Communism are markedly better off now, in particular North vs. South Korea.
This might have something to do with the war killing 1/4 of all North Koreans and utterly destroying all of its infrastructure, followed by economic sanctions that would bring any country to mass starvation.
Grow up and stop being so easily offended. It's just a funny stereotype, like Americans being loud, and British food sucking.
PHROGMAN, eh?
- Gallic Wars
- Lost. In a war whose ending foreshadows the next 2000 years of French history, France is conquered by of all things, an Italian. [Or at ths time in history, a Roman -ed.]
- Hundred Years War
- Mostly lost, saved at last by female schizophrenic who inadvertently creates The First Rule of French Warfare; "France's armies are victorious only when not led by a Frenchman." Sainted.
- Italian Wars
- Lost. France becomes the first and only country to ever lose two wars when fighting Italians.
- Wars of Religion
- France goes 0-5-4 against the Huguenots
- Thirty Years War
- France is technically not a participant, but manages to get invaded anyway. Claims a tie on the basis that eventually the other participants started ignoring her.
- War of Revolution
- Tied. Frenchmen take to wearing red flowerpots as chapeaux.
- The Dutch War
- Tied
- War of the Augsburg League/King William's War/French and Indian War
- Lost, but claimed as a tie. Three ties in a row induces deluded Frogophiles the world over to label the period as the height of French military power.
- War of the Spanish Succession
- Lost. The War also gave the French their first taste of a Marlborough, which they have loved every since.
- American Revolution
- In a move that will become quite familiar to future Americans, France claims a win even though the English colonists saw far more action. This is later known as "de Gaulle Syndrome", and leads to the Second Rule of French Warfare; "France only wins when America does most of the fighting."
- French Revolution
- Won, primarily due the fact that the opponent was also French.
- The Napoleonic Wars
- Lost. Temporary victories (remember the First Rule!) due to leadership of a Corsican, who ended up being no match for a British footwear designer.
- The Franco-Prussian War
- Lost. Germany first plays the role of drunk Frat boy to France's ugly girl home alone on a Saturday night.
- World War I
- Tied and on the way to losing, France is saved by the United States [Entering the war late -ed.]. Thousands of French women find out what it's like to not only sleep with a winner, but one who doesn't call her "Fraulein." Sadly, widespread use of condoms by American forces forestalls any improvement in the French bloodline.
- World War II
- Lost. Conquered French liberated by the United States and Britain just as they finish learning the Horst Wessel Song.
- War in Indochina
- Lost. French forces plead sickness; take to bed with the Dien Bien Flu
- Algerian Rebellion
- Lost. Loss marks the first defeat of a western army by a Non-Turkic Muslim force since the Crusades, and produces the First Rule of Muslim Warfare; "We can always beat the French." This rule is identical to the First Rules of the Italians, Russians, Germans, English, Dutch, Spanish, Vietnamese and Esquimaux.
- War on Terrorism
- France, keeping in mind its recent history, surrenders to Germans and
Knock knock.
Who's there?
Shut the fuck up, Donny.
What makes you think that you are not bigoted for thinking that the majority of Americans hold this opinion about the French instead of a handful of Fox News commentators and some Republicans from the Bible Belt? Most Americans with any education realize that not only do we have them to thank for success in the Revolutionary War and for half our country with the Louisiana purchase, but that we also have a strong linguistic connection with their culture in addition to genetic ancestry. Most people with college education realize that the French aren't surrender monkeys either (i.e.: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_French_wars_and_battles#Modern_Period ). Americans care about and have a high opinion France and the rest of Europe--many of us descend from there.
Rush Limbaugh and Bible Belt republicans don't represent the views of the majority of Americans.
Not really here nor there, just something to mention.
Entirely untrue. The North had a majority of the industrial infrastructure and manufacturing base at the end of the war. It was in a significantly better position.
The problem was that they couldn't do anything with it. The West certainly didn't want to buy any of their products, and who could blame them for not wanting to do business with a hostile, oppressive regime that fought a bloody battle? I can't think of a single good decision that North Korea has taken since the '50s. They are second to none in the worst run country category. They have no allies; the best thing going for them are countries that tolerate them (i.e. China and Russia), although they are starting to get ticked off as well.
It's unbelievable that anyone could consider the North Koreans victims.
Adolph Hitler would most likely have remained a unknown, raving anti-Semite and an artistic and political failure.
Did he remain a raving anti-Semite. Did he remain an artistic failure, albeit an artistic patron.
It gets awfully tiring to be reminded of just how fucking bigotted the US is in this way.
Apparently isn't not bigotry if you're the one doing it, right? Way to go.
[citation needed]
Apparently it's okay to be bigoted when the target is the US.
I'm proud to be an American.
I'm proud to live in that dot over here. My friend wishes he had been born on the dot on the other side of the map, though. If only.
Up your nose with a rubber hose ~Ubu Roi
It was a joke FIFTEEN YEARS ago when the Simpsons did it. Now it's just a tired, thin cover for bigotry that's about as funny as black-guy-on-welfare "jokes."
(squinting eyes) .....looks like poop!
(sniffing it) ....Smells like poop!
(chewing) ....tastes like poop!
(righteous glory)....Good thing I didn't Step in It!
An English speakers teasing the French is just a impulse reaction hardcoded into the DNA of our language. Look at how many miserable and oppressive words we have borrowed from them. This meme has been evolving since at least 1066, hopefully all parties dont take it too seriously all of the time and enjoy it for what it is.
last time i tried gnumeric, about a month ago, it was hopeless: just a really basic program , worth what you paid for it
No your just a trolling for a response, but in reality you're just a fowl mouthed person. I don't know why I'm typing this in reply to an idiot like you but grow up!
But if you're going to make a joke, especially a derogatory joke (face it, the "French surrender" jokes are derogatory) at least make them original.
I, like the GP and most people with half a brain are sick of the same tired old "France surrenders, huh, huh" jokes trotted out when even so much as a croissant is referenced. I saw one about Thunderbird crashing whenever it receives a message from Germany and thought that it was semi original enough to justify a funny rating but for the most part such comments are uninspired, unfunny, tired old surrender jokes being trotted out time and time again which we've all heard before.
Maybe the comments are in jest, maybe someone has an anti-France agenda but if you do make derogatory comments in jest make sure they are funny, otherwise they just become annoying.
BTW, at least don't display an ignorance of history, the French resistance did far more harm to the Nazi's then the Vichy collaborators did good for the Nazi's. Much of the early war intel, including several parts of "Ultra" came from resistance fighters who risked their lives and families lives to get that intel.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
Yeah , but Americans are pretty fucked when it comes to derogatory jokes about them. Like how they are such pussies they can't even go to war unless they pick on a country that can't defend itself against air power - and even then pimply nerds do most of it by remote control.
The French surrendered against a kind of warfare that had only appeared very shortly before their invasion and then fought a very successful underground campaign against the aggressors, much like the Iraqis have done. Good on them. Beats a bunch of wusses that don't even have the balls to surrender properly to a bunch of midgets in black pajamas when they are licked, despite having all the jets, agent orange and napalm.
I too know plenty of decent Americans, but this vocal peanut gallery makes me sick, especially this anti-French bullshit. Even Kiwis don't generally hang the same level of shit on them. You guys go on and on because they won't join you in your international armed robbery? Good on them for having some balls, even if they are the stinky cheese ball variety.
I don't therefore I'm not.
As to the Napoleonic Era, it is important to point out that they were the first European power to establish a Republic free of a Monarch. They were also trying to form democratic institutions on a continent dominated by Monarchs that wanted nothing more than to see France's attempt fail. We in the US were under the Articles of Confederation from November 1777 to June 21, 1788. Cornwall surrendered on October, 1781. So we had over six years to work on democratic institutions under relatively peaceful conditions. But the French fleet continued to combat the British in the West Indies. There was also the Fourth Anglo-Dutch War (1780-1784) that was sparked by the American Revolution. All of this made the Treaty of Paris a rather complicated affair. But as a result of their rather expensive support of our revolution, the French government was under great financial hardship. This was one of the lead-ups to the French Revolution, which began on 14 July 1789 with the storming of the Bastille. By 1792, the French were in wars with Austria and Prussia at a time when their government and armies were disintegrating. By 9 November 1788, Napoleon had seized power.
So in our first decade, we gained significant allies and were able to deliberate on forming The Constitution, which is a truly remarkable document. In contrast, France's first decade faced powerful enemies, the Reign of Terror and the ascent of Napoleon. Relatively speaking, we had it easy.
Americans don't recognize the absolute genius of Napoleon. In addition to being one of the finest military commanders in history, he also established the Napoleonic Code. Frankly, the Napoleonic Code is a far more rational basis for a legal system than British Common Law. He also advanced the fledgling École Polytechnique, which is still one of the finest technical universities in the world - certainly a peer of MIT or CalTech. He also advanced their banking system and post office.
I do not state that I would rather be French than American, but calling someone an 'ignorant, America-hating asshole that seems to be so pissed off because the US makes the rules for world' is just stupid. Learn about the rest of the world. Take what is best and synthesis something even better. We can use the French model to evolve and the French can use the American model to evolve.
Think global, act loco
"The same people that make the surrender jokes will often make fun of their own nation just as quickly."
Bold claim, backed up by NOTHING, followed by insults. Anonymous, no less. Why does that not surprise?
But while we're at it: what is "just a joke"? What meanings and functions can a joke have, which do apply here? "It's just a joke, shut up now" is just a feeble attempt by weak intellects to shut down any pondering/discussion of that.
Specific members of the French military contributed specific code to Thunderbird -- what does FRANCE have to do with it? And no, I'm neither French nor would I care if be insulted and utterly outraged (LOL) if I was - I just think it's apeish and fucking lame, not to mention predictable and utterly boring to anyone except the "oooo-raaahhhh" crowd... which to me is the main function of such "mere jokes", they serve as a glue for people with common cognitive defects. It's not even dissing France or anything French, it's simply a signal flare saying "Idiot here, where are my idiots at?"
Someone pointing that out is doing you a favour actually. Do with it what you will.
I shoved my head back up my ass when I found out that the Freedom Fries people were serious.
Paul Grosfield - the quicker picker upper.
The primary changes (the military) have made allow them to know for sure when messages have been read
is this a joke?
Well, you don't hear many jokes about Poland,
It's not so popular lately, but it used to be quite common to hear jokes about the Polish being bizarrely stupid. For example, I saw a coffee mug someone made that says "Made in Poland" on the bottom, and has the handle on the inside. I'd always assumed that the term RPN was mostly a joke, although Wikipedia tells me there is a legitimate Polish connection there.
Anyway, how about this one?
Heaven is a place where all the police are all British, the cooks are French, the mechanics are German, the lovers are Italian, and everything is organized by the Swiss. In Hell, the cooks are all British, the mechanics are French, the police are German, the lovers are Swiss, and everything is organized by the Italians.
I've seen a couple of variations floating around with a few additions: in Heaven the wives are Japanese and the houses are American; in Hell the wives are American and the houses are Japanese.
$x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
$x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
Maybe you need to get a passport big fella, have a travel through the world. Might do to reign in those angry neophyte ideas of yours and keep them to yourself until you reach your teen years though, particularly so while actually traveling. I'm glad you love your country, sometimes it's cool to be a groupie, me, I am not so patriotic, I confine my amorous nature to the entire universe - it's all good. Just a pity I have to have a passport to see some of it.
the sad truth is in the big wide world Americans are not liked, i lost count of the amount of American backpackers in Europe with Canadian flags on there backpacks when asked why the answer was always the same ... the were sick of getting abuse because of the governments interference with other countries ... i personally have nothing against Americans however your government should take care of business at home and let the world be ......
Yeah, its the same with Aussies. Every time Australia comes up you always get the "yo'all are convicts!" comments, it just gets old. The real hypocrisy is that not only did America get its fair share of convicts as a penile colony, it also got the crazy religious loons who were ostracised from the general population at the time. Take that freaks...
The anti-communism sentiment was quite strong in a lot of countries in the region, as it happens, especially as you go further East. Sorry to burst the bubble, but the US did fuck all to "contain" communism. It contained itself, with Indonesia in paritcular very happy to use US aid given under the illusion of helping fight the reds to entrench a totalitarian regime - and invade East Timor.
The fact that the Americans went against Ho Chi Minh, a guerilla fighter who in WWII saved US servicemen from the Japanese, cut them off from trade and ostracised them and then left it up to them to deal with Pol Pot is pretty sickening. See I reckon communism is about as evil as unbridled free market capitalism, an opinion I have held for many years and which seems to have been shown to have some merit of late. Mass murder and tactics employed by Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot were not communism any more than extraordinary renditions are free market capitalism.
I also believe the fight against genocide that occurred in Cambodia would be much more worthy of national pride then the idiocy of Vietnam. What use was the US, with it's premanent position on th in^H^Hsecurity council in actually dealing with the aftermath? None, because when the US gets a sore pride, the US sulks. Or makes surrender monkey jokes. Having pride in that episode is almost as disgusting as having pride in the second Gulf War, and this is coming from someone in a country that also committed troops to both. Stop fooling yourself.
I don't therefore I'm not.
Caveat: I have dual citizenship Canadian AND French (yes from France, not Quebec). And I haven't eaten frogs (as far as I know).
> French decided not to commit forces to the first Gulf War
Typo. You meant Gulf War 2. The French participated into Gulf War 1.
> I don't even particularly like the French myself.
You know, half of the French people are female. Does that now change your mind? Funny how it is easier to dislike someone we don't know well if that person is a he rather than a she.
Agree with you on how useful it is to learn about History. One thing I enjoy in anglophone Canada is access to the History Channel on TV - discovering History as seen through the English angle. Feels like looking at the same scenes with glasses polarized differently.
Peureux Anonyme
That's not saying much.
Britney Spears underwear is a lot more secure than Outlook.
- Gallic Wars
- Lost. In a war whose ending foreshadows the next 2000 years of French history, France is conquered by of all things, an Italian. [Or at ths time in history, a Roman -ed.]
Of course, the Gauls had sacked Rome a few hundred years earlier. But let's all just remember that self-aggrandizing (future) petty dictator.
Well, you don't hear many jokes about Poland, The Netherlands or Belgium being invaded by the Germans. Perhaps the French history as a great nation and the cultural arrogance that comes from that makes them more of a valid target to joke about.
Of course, neither the Dutch nor the Poles actually surrendered during WWII, as their governments fled to Britain.
If the French had marched into the Rhineland after Hitler's militarization of it, the Wehrmacht would have had little choice but to retreat to Germany. Shirer claims that such a retreat would have lead to the overthrow of Hitler. The French connivance with the British at Munich didn't help, either.
Dude, go see the world. Between the French ,the English and us Australians and to a lesser degree Americans (because they generally take jokes at their expense poorly) giving each other a ribbing all in good fun is just how we roll. It's always been the case and probably always will be. I'm never offended by a joke at Australia's expense from any of our "allies" so to speak, i often find it funnier than the joke teller. We're all comfortable that we are timeless friends with more in common than we differ and mean no harm. Apologies if a joke gets under your thin skin, but there's a bigger world out there than the box you live in. Americans neither invented, resurrected or propogated the whole "fromage eating surrender monkey" shtick, they just joined in on the joke. Granted most Americans lack a propper sense of humour past the drivel they pump out in their sitcoms these days.. so It's hard to tell the difference when they have a go, but trust me, the rest of us aren't bothered and we're all in on the joke and you're giving yourself heartburn over nothing.
...from the Tracy family compound and Lady Penelope.
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Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
So, when's 4.0 coming out? Or will that be tainted, too?
They did it half way. Either you try and make people feel like they are entirely equals or you crush them under your boot.
The French tried to do both. They failed miserably.
The thinking (according to this article or whatnot) was to keep up morale after such a disastrous outcome by essentially claiming that any other nation would have managed to fight them off but that the French are weak and gave up without a fight.
It helps that this apparently was pretty much true. In the book, Collapse of the Third Republic, by William L. Shirer, the author not only discusses the military defeat in 1940, but also a number of political factors, some of which (eg, the Dreyfus affair) preceded both world wars. My impression is that France became so politically divided (between liberal and conservative forces, much as is present in most if not all democratic countries) in the 30's that defeat of the political opposition was considered a higher priority than the defense of France.
While we know the end result, it's worth noting that there are several times when France could have acted to stop the Second World War. A key point was the German reoccupation of the Rhineland in 1936 (which was the most egregious of the violations of the Treaty of Versailles prior to Germany's invasion of Austria two years later). France was both capable, within its rights to use military force, and at low risk (due to Germany's then weak military forces) to evict Germany from there. But they chose not to. Four years later, the country was occupied by Germany.
Anyone who gets their history lessons from Maddox's "The Best Page in the Universe" is a FUCKING. MORON.
And now, for a funny retort to that list, the War Nerd.
Its worth noting as well that every other European country attacked (including Russia at the start) pretty much collapsed under the blitzkrieg.
Yes, but which other European country had a military even a fraction of the size of Frances? Thought so.
Jules: What do they call Thunderbird?
Vincent Vega: Thunderbird's Thunderbird, but they call it "le Thunderbird".
Jules: "Le Thunderbird"! Ha ha ha ha! What do they call Outlook?"
Vincent Vega: I dunno, I didn't use Windows.
"Yeah, well, Dracula called and he's coming over tonight for you and I said okay."
It's worth mentioning that most American foreign interventions before Iraq had been for the purpose of removing democratically elected politicians and replacing them with pro-US dictators. The missions don't always succeed, but the outcome is always disastrous for the inhabitants.
This is an extremely broad brush that can only be justified by ignoring history. Take El Salvador, for example. I have a lot to complain about what the US did in El Salvador, but there is no doubt US action in that country was in favor of democracy. The US strongly pressed the Salvadoran government to hold elections, and in the end pressured them into a compromise that in my opinion was the best possible outcome of the war. Some people disagree with me on that point, but it is clear that the US was pressing for democracy.
Basically, if you want to generalize US foreign policy towards small countries, pre-WW1 they were mildly colonist and strongly favored keeping Europe out of the western hemisphere. Post WW2 foreign policy was characterized entirely by a fear of communism, and most decisions were made based on that; they were not based on trying to install dictators (I'm really not sure where you got that idea), although at times it was convenient to support dictators.
If you want to look at it a certain way, Obama has actually gotten the closest to your characterization of any president. He supports Ahmadinejad over the democratic protestors who want their vote, and he has supported Chavez in Venezuela and the attempts in Honduras to overthrow the constitutionally appointed system. Now, I'm not going to say this is a fair characterization of Obama, just point out that when you pick and choose your facts, as you have done, you can make anyone look bad.
Qxe4
Russians did. Stalin at the time of invasion by Germany probably did have more army than french did (counting men and probably equipment). Suffered the same fate, mostly due to poor leadership (good military leaders were "cleansed"). It took a harsh winter and fetching Zhukov from a gulag to stop them near Moscow.
--Coder
lol, your reference is incidentally from a student's webspace. It is Group 25's research project.
http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/u/u/uup101/Assign7.htm
Not that I think the jokes about the French are generally either funny or anything other than counterproductive, but they don't spring from Americans being "ignorant, narrow minded, [or] bigoted." They spring from the fact that France basically has never come to terms with the reality of what happened in WWII (see "Paris se libere!"), the rabid anti-Americanism which de Gaulle exhibited, and the many ways in which France has done things which are not only to its allies' disadvantage but also to its own disadvantage- for no other reason than to try to stick it to the Americans (and sometimes the Brits). I think the Macmillan paraphrase from that article is relevant- "France, he said, had made peace with Germany, had forgiven Germany for the brutality of invasion and the humiliation of four years of occupation, but it could never - never - forgive the British and Americans for the liberation."
You can't really even make much of an attempt to joke about what happened to most of the countries Hitler invaded. But the French pride, arrogance, and rewriting of history have in the past made it easier for people to find jokes about the French to be palatable.
I honestly haven't read much about this but from the military perspective they had more troops and tanks (and bigger tanks) than the Germans (taken together with British expeditionary force). If there was political instability it certainly would have contributed to the disorder after the blitzkrieg.
I think its easy to criticise the French for not stopping the war in hindsight but what nation would start a war over a country simply moving its troops over its sovereign territory (remember that Germany did not "occupy" the Rhineland they simply re-militarised it - i.e. move its troops within its own territory - not conquer territory belonging to another nation) something that the British had indicated they were prepared to accept?
Control is an illusion, order our comforting lie. From chaos, through chaos, into chaos we fly
You might want to know that the French don't consider these "jokes" funny. The fact that Americans don't seem to understand that, is astonishing.
>But the French pride, arrogance, and rewriting of history
As a neighbour of the france, it seems clear to me that the french are the europe the most similar to US citizens. As a french speaking, I can say france is nearly the only counrty where citizens seems to believe in "the american dream".
I'm going to love this one. How are the patriotic American geeks going to respond? US military goes with Microsoft products, French military supports open source....
So where were you for the first two years of the war? Having breakfast? Running out of excuses not to join in? Waiting until the Russians had done the hard work for you?
It's easy to make cheap comments and dishonour the fallen of all nations.
I am not an American, I'm actually from Zimbabwe. I promise you that Zimbabweans are as nasty and arrogant and superior as Americans in spite of all the s*** they are in at the moment. :-) I live in Britain and the British are arrogant and superior too, particularly going on all the time about how non arrogant and nice they are and how awesome their own sense of humour is. I see it because I am a foreigner and because when I go back to Zimbabwe I realise I have become a foreigner there too.
You often don't notice your own arrogance - I know I don't.
In the end, everyone needs to think that they are great, part of a great team or group. It makes us feel safe. There must be some branch of psychology or sociology devoted to this and I will look it up some day. The problem is that if your team is really good then it must be really good compared to something else - like that other team over there who talk funny and eat disgusting food and wear odd clothes and . . . .
Americans can just do all this bragging and loud mouthing with a greater degree of confidence than everyone else - partly because America is powerful and partly because they don't know any better. I've heard Chinese and Indian people express awful and immensely arrogant opinions but not quite so loudly.
Anyhow I think you're right about putting that surrender thing to bed but I also think that everyone needs to "pick the beam out of their own eye before picking the splinter out of the other guys" more than they think.
This is all just my personal opinion.
If the French are to be blamed for anything after WWI, it is for being too *aggressive* against the Germans. They crippled the German economy with vengeful reparations. They invaded and occupied the Ruhr.
My grand-father fought during WWI.
Two generations after him, I still bear the sequels of the chemical military attacks from the Germans (check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfur_mustard, and yes, this gas modifies the DNA ).
A whole generation of young french guys were sacrificed during WWI, and a lot of family names disappeared during this time.
Yes, the french generals were partly to blame, because they used the soldiers as cannon fodder.
But the Germans were the first to use chemical weapons.
If you were a french during this period, you would have a lot of resentment against Germany.
There is no doubt that you would have done the same thing.
Napoleon certainly tried, but never conquered Russia. Although he did in fact conquer Moscow, the Russian government simply retreated until Napoleon was forced to go home due to the complete lack of everything needed to sustain an army. The Russians employed the same scorched earth techniques they would later use to defend against Hitler's army.
I am French, I do not care for THAT joke in itself and I don't feel offended, but it certainly help me categorise my interlocutor. Think about it, I am on a forum, discussing X,Y,Z subject and some US guy come in and make the "rifle not used in 1940" joke or another of those surrender joke. What does it say on the intent of the "joker" ? Just choosing THAT type of joke in that context ? Humour seems almost certainly not the goal. Maybe teasing being generous with the "joker", or insult more probably. Anyway, who cares ? The teller of such overused joke look like bigoted idiot and will be mostly ignored, as the gp poster said.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
The real reason De Gaulle resisted the US was because he saw them as a menace after the war to the French political and economical freedom. The same reason he did not want the English in the precursor of the EU, because he saw them as a backdoor for the US influence (and indeed , a good case could be made that they sometimes stick stuff in the wheel of the EU out of spite, whereas at the same time seems to be much more friendly with the US). Now whether his prediction turned out to be true or not, uin the mean time we have had for a long time presidents which lean toward "nearing" to the US, to even a point thatour current president is called nastily "lapdog prancing around the US". Still the joke endure.
"But the French pride, arrogance, and rewriting of history" pot, kettle. Especially on the US side on pride and arrogance. As for rewriting history, I would like you to show us that, as in current history book I read it is quite clear the allied only did a favor by putting the French division forward. There is as much history rewriting on the US side too. So really, don't point at the dirt the other are kicking, when you arekicking as much dirt yourself, assuming you are an american.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
I've been waiting for TB3 ever since they mentioned it will have tabs.
Unfortunately, for all of us Eudora users - TB3 isn't a replacement. Eudora allowed opening mailboxes in tabs, TB3 doesn't. Eudora saved opened "tabs" (it used MDI) and reloaded them when it was started again - TB3 doesn't.
On top of that, TB3 happily crashed while importing my Eudora emails... Which honestly puzzles me because Eudora uses a simple mbx format. How can it fail to import pure text?!
Oh well, let's wait for TB4... If I don't write my own Clonedora client in the meantime.
Note to non-Americans who managed to read the entire above post: Yeah, lots of us are assholes. But we're not all like this guy. Really.
As stated in the previous anonymous comment, the code was contributed by the gendarmerie (military police), which is quite tech savvy and has a long history of using and advocating open source solutions. They previously switched all their office software to OpenOffice.org in 2005, and are currently migrating most of their Windows workstations to Ubuntu. But this effort is not so widespread ; there are both successes (like the budget and public accounting administration recently migrating from Outlook and Notes to Thunderbird and OBM groupware) and failures, like the whole educational field, which is basically a mess. There are some isolated efforts to promote free software and open standards, but due to a lack of strong political willpower, huge lobbying from Microsoft, and general incompetence and disinterest about IT, teachers, students and administrative staff are usually stuck with proprietary (and often obsolete) solutions. There has been some recent effort to officially define open formats and standards and to enforce their use across the whole French administration (http://www.april.org/fr/rgi), but it was mostly thwarted by Microsoft using some FUD and promoting their pseudo-open OOXML format. I think we can say that more and more IT people in the French administration are aware than FOSS is a real and worthy alternative, but the battle is far from won.
You English speakers are so bigotted you mean Great Britain pre-1801 and the United Jingdom 1801
(Submission word repelled)
If you want to look at it a certain way, Obama has actually gotten the closest to your characterization of any president. He supports Ahmadinejad over the democratic protestors who want their vote, and he has supported Chavez in Venezuela and the attempts in Honduras to overthrow the constitutionally appointed system. Now, I'm not going to say this is a fair characterization of Obama, just point out that when you pick and choose your facts, as you have done, you can make anyone look bad.
Oh bullshit. He didn't "support" Ahmadinejad. He just wasn't going to intrude the U.S. into that whole situation and give the Iranian government somthing to point to and say "See? This is all being caused by the outside influence of the Great Satan and the Zionists." Of course the Iranian government went ahead and placed the blame on outside influences anyhow.
Supporting Chavez? Where'd you get that from?
Not sure what you mean about by the comments about Honduras. Did you mean by supporting Zelaya he was supporting Zelaya's attempt to co-opt the government by extending term limits (which is a no-no under the Honduarn constitution)?
They did it half way. Either you try and make people feel like they are entirely equals or you crush them under your boot.
The French tried to do both. They failed miserably.
They failed to read their Machiavelli
Men ought either to be indulged or utterly destroyed, for if you merely offend them they take vengeance, but if you injure them greatly they are unable to retaliate, so that the injury done to a man ought to be such that vengeance cannot be feared.
Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
Karma: Chameleon
I remember reading that BBC article when it came out. In my opinion, it's a complete misinterpretation of the phrase "Paris se libere." Yes, it could mean that Paris is liberating itself... but it's also the way of saying "Paris is being liberated." An example would be "La maison se vide", which means "the house empties itself." Of course, the house can't actually empty itself, as a house can't do much of anything. What it means is that people or things inside are leaving.
The French understand what happened during WWII. Every year on June 6 they haul out American and British flags. De Gaulle wanted to avoid becoming America's pawn in Europe and pushed for strong French independence (which is related to the whole NATO debacle talked about in the article). From the point of view of any sovereign nation this is natural. Arguably, the Brits have become more subjected to America's will than any other European nation, for they were incapable of not joining us in lock-step in our contrived war in Iraq.
I don't have a problem with cracking jokes on other nations, but the main issue with the ones targeted on France and related to surrendering is that they are rooted in ignorance of history. You can make fun of them for smelly cheese, for going on strike all the time, for wanting lots of vacation... whatever, but to say that they just surrender is disrespectful of the millions of French soldiers and underground forces who fought and died for their country. And surely a country as militaristic as the US, which always demands we "support our troops" could understand how to respect another nation's troops.
I'll finish with some simple statistics: in World War I, 4.29% of all French people died. Assuming that most of those were young men fighting in the trenches, and that the ratio of men-women is 50/50, that's nearly 10% of all French men who died. That doesn't include the several million more wounded. France also lost half a million people in World War II.
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it dissolve.
You know, i live in Poland, and we do remember French and Brits who "fought brave" while Poland was dying.
source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoney_War
The Phoney War, also called the Twilight War by Winston Churchill, der Sitzkrieg in German ("the sitting war": a play on the word Blitzkrieg),[1] the Bore War (a play on the Boer War), the Polish dziwna wojna ("strange war"), and the French drôle de guerre ("funny war" or "joke war") was a phase in early World War II – in the months following the German invasion of Poland in September 1939 and preceding the Battle of France in May 1940 – that was marked by a lack of major military operations in Continental Europe. The great powers of Europe had declared war on one another, yet neither side had committed to launching a significant attack, and there was relatively little fighting on the ground, notwithstanding terms of Anglo-Polish military alliance and Franco-Polish Military Alliance, which obliged the United Kingdom and France to assist Poland.
While most of the German army was engaged in Poland, a much smaller German force manned the Siegfried Line, their fortified defensive line along the French border. At the Maginot Line on the other side of the border, British and French troops stood facing them, but there were only some local, minor skirmishes. The British Royal Air Force dropped propaganda leaflets on Germany and the first Canadian troops stepped ashore in Britain, while western Europe was in a strange calm for seven months.
Well, you don't hear many jokes about Poland, The Netherlands or Belgium being invaded by the Germans.
The Netherlands never stood a chance. We had canons more than a century old for protection! When we refused to surrender they just completely levelled Rotterdam and threatened to do the same to other major cities. If we continued to fight, there wouldn't have been much left of the Netherlands and we'd still have lost.
A small correction: according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poison_gas_in_World_War_I#1914:_Tear_gas the French were the first to use gas in WW I, the Germans were the first to use _deadly_ gas.
Next time a anyone mentions "liberating" a foreign country, think about the Philippines, Chile, Indonesia, El Salvador, Cuba, Nicaragua, Iran, Vietnam, Laos, Afghanistan, Guatemala, the Seminoles, and Haiti.
I've probably missed a few in there, but anyone with a grasp of US history with regard to foreign interventions should be quite skeptical of any claims of "liberation" or "promoting democracy" abroad.
You forgot Iraq. Whitout support from US in form of money, weapon, military intelligence and training, Saddam Hussein would not likely have come to power. He was rather good at playing Soviet and US against each other and get support from both, but US was the ones that gave him enough power to do so (of course, US supported a lot of other horrible people competing for power in Iraq, why place all your bets on only one horse).
Err, no. In fact, I've never heard an Australian or a Brit refer to it, ever.
But with that said: the French were absolutely right about standing up to Bush against an unnecessary war. All they had to do was commit a symbolic number of troops to "fight" in some relatively peaceful outback region like other countries did. If only more people stood up to the false claims...
If this is the French version of standing up to Bush, then perhaps they deserve what other people say about them. A recent-ish survey I cannot currently locate claims that the French hate themselves more than anyone else does, so perhaps further they know something we don't. There is a lot of bad blood left over from war between the English and French, and Americans are more British than they know, having retained many of the attitudes and prejudices of that past. I can't help but notice that the USA and the UK are the world's primary surveillance societies, either.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
If that's the reason for the meme: "They took 8 months to start fighting", then what about the US??? Is there anything more cowardly than "surrender", since that is when you've waited 8 months. What could it be when you've waited FOUR YEARS!?!?
The missions don't always succeed
On the contrary, even a "failed" mission is a success for the business of government. At the top of the power pyramid, as long as the money passes through your hands, you win.
You're not in the business of government, are you?
"It gets awfully tiring to be reminded of just how fucking bigotted the US is in this way"
Yes, good thing the French arent' bigotted.
The bottom line here is that you are one of those holier than thou chest pounders who think they are better because they "fight for the underdog". I'm sure you are up on your ivory tower patting yourself on the back for fightiting for the rights of the French. And of course you delve into the education of people because it's obvious you think you are smarter than everyone else. In reality you are just a loser who needs to make themself feel like they are better than everyone else because you know you are nothing and no one cares a damn about you.
Its worth noting as well that every other European country attacked (including Russia at the start) pretty much collapsed under the blitzkrieg.
Yes, but which other European country had a military even a fraction of the size of Frances? Thought so.
Within Europe a lot of countries had a military larger and better equiped than France. France had most of their military stationed far away from France. Soviet had a larger (semi-)professional army and Sweden had a more than thousand year long tradition of a peoples army (with the exception of 50 years when a semi-professional army was used (Sweden reqruited one of Napoleons Marshals for king)). Pretty much every male adult citizen within Sweden was a reasonably well trained soldier (at least compared to most of the German military, which was really badly trained and usually to young or to old to make good soldiers), altough the stores of military equipment within Sweden wasn't large enough to put everybody into arms at the beginning of the war and there was a lack of officers; Sweden stayed neutral during the whole conflict (at least officially, unofficially they helped both sides). Polish forces was huge in manpower and horses, but slightly outdated in equipment and many of them friendly towards Nazi Germany.
Just as the Septic[1] government fled when their invasion of Canada backfired on them, and an outnumbered force of British marines marched towards Washington. Found an uneaten dinner on the dining table according to the accounts of the first British officers into the Whitehouse.
[1] from "septic tank" == "yank", British term for those across the water (see also "Merkins" - helps to say it in Dubya voice).
For a second I thought my childhood dreams had come true and International Rescue was becoming a reality. Thanks a lot Slashdot.
The problem is not the joke. It's that *any* topic about France will have more of these jokes than actual discussion about the topic.
Shirer is now considered highly unreliable for his conclusions - although he is still important for source material. A better book on the subject is "To Lose a Battle" by Alistair Horne (part of a series of three excellent books describing clashes between France and Germany). The French had sufficient men and equipment to put a up a winning fight, but lacked adequate leadership in the military (on the other hand, a number of French politicians rose to the occasion remarkably well). For all his flaws and boasting, de Gaulle was the kind of man the French military needed at the top, not defence minded men like Gamelin or Weygand.
Hey moron, you confuse battles, wars, rebellions, uprisings and riots in a huge list. We can do the same for all countries steeped in history. Should we make a list of all the American failure to include Draft Riots and the Los Angeles riots of 1992, for example?
The Gauls was a Celtic people as the English and Spanish was. Frank and have given the French were Germans. European history is probably a bit too complicated for the average American.
It gets awfully tiring to be reminded of just how fucking bigotted the US is in this way. You should get over yourselves already.
Ha! Shows what you know. We're the most humble country in the world. We have way more humility than anyone else, the reason you don't see it is that it has to cover so much awesomeness.
Now, queue all the responses from people calling me a "liberal", "faggot", "commie", "pinko" etc, because I criticized the US (I am none of those things by the way).
I'd never call you any of those things, when I can call you "Canadian". Did I mention how tolerant and open minded we are? Well we are, so STFU.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
I'm British and it annoys me. "Cheese eating surrender monkeys" (Simpsons) was funny because it was over the top and ridiculous. It being parroted without even a hint of originality is just tiring. The thing about offensive jokes is that once they stop being funny they're just offensive.
Python coder | PyQt Applications | Writer
So Nazis certainly tried, but never conquered France Although he did in fact conquer Paris the French government simply retreated. Half of France were conquered. http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichier:France_map_Lambert-93_with_regions_and_departments-occupation-fr.svg
No worries. We know there are idiots (and really great folk) in every country. "Empty vessels make the most noise" is indeed a truth.
Care to explain how France was driven out of Ethiopia?
I've trained French soldiers. The joke is a joke to most of America, but I know first hand: the French military is a nest of dirtbags.
Brits to italian jokes on that, not french: "The new Italian tank has 8 gears: 1 forward, 7 reverse".
Mostly because when Rommel wasn't in Africa, the Italian troops retreated thousands of miles.
Rommel got them all back again, but left and the Italian led german troops retreated thousands of miles again.
Some folk in the UK make surrender jokes, but on the whole they don't go down too well. We're well aware that we were 25 miles away from being invaded ourselves and it was a close run thing. You walk round the UK now and still see bomb damage from then. We have relatives who have personal frightening memories of the time. We're very aware that the French fought before losing their country and fought incredibly bravely even after losing their country. We know French people carried out acts of incredible bravery to shelter our airmen and others from being captured and helped get them back home and risked their lives and torture to resist the occupation.
My theory is that the further a place was from a war, the easier it is to be ill-educated and insensitive about it.
Ugh, Ok. Yes, some people are biggoted assholes, it's true. We have them here in the US, but clearly you have them in Canada as well, judging from:
If there is one thing that is certain in this world, its that if someone says "The French" or "France" within hearing of any US Citizen, the immediate response will be an endless string of "Surrender" or "SurrenderMonkey" Jokes.
Emphasis mine.
Any blanket statement applied to all of the people that live within some certain arbitrary geographical area is dumb and bigoted. For instance, USians who say that the French are cowardly are bigots. Also, (English) Canadians such as yourself that say that USians are bigots... are also bigots. And, of course, there are people that say things like:
I don't even particularly like the French myself.
Well done.
I assume you're an American living in America (otherwise you'd be agreeing wholeheartedly with me). This has nothing to do with your perverted sense of "bigotry" but rather the stupidity that is prevalent throughout American society.
Go outside, and find a typical American on the street. Ask them the following questions:
1) What continent is France in?
2) Which country invaded France during WWII?
3) Which country provided substantial military and financial support to America during the American Revolution?
4) Do you like "Freedom Fries"?
Those are simple questions. Most Americans won't get them right.
I think its easy to criticise the French for not stopping the war in hindsight but what nation would start a war over a country simply moving its troops over its sovereign territory (remember that Germany did not "occupy" the Rhineland they simply re-militarised it - i.e. move its troops within its own territory - not conquer territory belonging to another nation) something that the British had indicated they were prepared to accept?
This wasn't just any country, but a country that had tried to destroy France in the recent past, which was remilitarizing, and one with which France had long had strained relations. I think it and other examples of this time help explain why the later Cold War was so aggressive and strained. Both the US and USSR were chastened by the Second World War and determined not to repeat the mistakes of complacency that lead to so much death and trouble.
Now, years later, we know that the primary achievement of the whole Iraq war effort has been to transform their country from a secular dictatorship to a theocratic dictatorship.
That's a bit of an overstatement -- and this is coming from somebody who protested that war from *before* the congressional authorization vote.
Our big problem going into Iraq were unexamined, and often *unspoken* assumptions that were believed because they were convenient for a certain ideology's supporters. Making the same kind of assumptions in support of a contrary ideology is not a cure for that madness.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
ITYM "second" Gulf war. The French did commit forces to the first Gulf war.
Watch this Heartland Institute video
" - War on Terrorism" Uh Americans won this one? What a good news!
Uuum, while I hear you, please don’t overgeneralize. There are many retards in any country. And there are great people in any country too.
The not so great people in the US just happen to be arrogant. (Funnily, just like the not so great French people. Which should make them think. ^^)
(I’m Luxemburgish [Ran over by the Nazis in what? A day? ;] with one half Afghani [So my plane would most likely directly be redirected to a US concentration camp.] genes. Yet I still don’t think is such stupid absolute terms.)
Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
And which language would that be? It doesn't seem to be English.
What, like "miserable" and "oppressive'. Or do you mean "language"?
Watch this Heartland Institute video
At the time, there was a lot of anti-another-goddamn-EuroWar sentiment in the U.S. The Japanese were seen by many as not threatening anyone with death except the poor Chinese and other Asians. The reports of Nazi atrocities were not given the moral relevance they clearly should have. One could argue that WWII woke up the Americans to not neglecting evil in the world and resulted in Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Iraq (regardless of whether evil was actually there in the case of Vietnam). Mind you the antiwar crowd was and still is not weak, however the leaders in Washington appear to break on the side of kill'em now so we don't have to kill'em later...well, some of them. There is also a segment of "gee, if the U.S. gets another 9/11 while I'm in office, I'll be out of office shortly." The anti-war crowd seems convinced the world would be a bunny world if the U.S. just left it alone.
So the quick answer, if it is an answer, they are all wrong and right, but not in equal measures.
By the way, as long as we are assigning blame, Europe, sans Germany, is also responsible for WWII. Starting with not stepping on Hitler early on, to the non-Germans aiding the Nazies, to Switzerland which was just so neutral it had no balls when it would have counted.
This is an extremely broad brush that can only be justified by ignoring history. Take El Salvador, for example. I have a lot to complain about what the US did in El Salvador, but there is no doubt US action in that country was in favor of democracy. The US strongly pressed the Salvadoran government to hold elections, and in the end pressured them into a compromise that in my opinion was the best possible outcome of the war. Some people disagree with me on that point, but it is clear that the US was pressing for democracy.
You should read the history again. The US funded the military dictatorship for 12 years against a popular coalition trying to overthrow them. The side the US supported was the one with the "death squads" and was also the one that held the fraudulent elections that instigated the initial protests (which were met with violence).
This is just fine, of course, since the Salvadrucos were trying to put leftists into their government and the US knew that was not in the best interest of the people there. Silly El Salvador, trying to install the wrong kind of popularly supported government!
Heaven is a place where all the police are all British, the cooks are French, the mechanics are German, the lovers are Italian, and everything is organized by the Swiss. In Hell, the cooks are all British, the mechanics are French, the police are German, the lovers are Swiss, and everything is organized by the Italians.
Given that the British police now arrest you for taking standard tourist photos (with no legal basis) and beat you to death for 'walking away insolently while under not arrest', I think I'll take my chances with the German police. Also, the UK has excellent food in places including a number of world-reknowned Chefs, Michelin starred restraunts, and some very good gastropubs etc. So I think I'll try hell please.
Oh, I think you're pointing too much at the US here. We British have been doing anti-French jokes for a lot longer than that. Hardly something to get all excited about, and I'm sure the French have plenty of jokes of their own.
Go right ahead, froggy, because then I'll just augment the list with even more factual French failures.
Just the fact that you replied tells me the list hits home. You know it's true.
Vietnam... Nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah
Calling them "British" or "Britons" instead of "English" would make more sense. The Angles and Saxons kicked the Britons out of England and pushed them to the West (Cornwall, Wales) and North (Strathclyde, Scotland) of the main island.
(Mais bon, on va pas couper les chevaux en quatre, hein...)
In Soviet Russia, our new overlords are belong to all your base.
Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
*Sigh* I should have previewed to make sure my tags were closed correctly.
Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
Considering how there are special visa things setup between the US and Poland, Poland's government having known CIA operatives in key positions...
One wonders how the British is so much more subjected to the USA's will over Poland's.
The site's contents:
That retort wasn't very funny.
Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
You must be new here.
What a depressingly stupid machine.
How many merkins were in NV? And among the Vietnamese deaths are you including the civilian deaths?
Did anyone read through the feature list? The message flash is not something I want in my 'vanilla' Thunderbird: http://www.trustedbird.org/tb/XSMTP (scroll down).
This copy-paste job posted by an anonymous coward. How telling. Let me guess, you don't have an account?
Best "String" Ever!
Funny you bring up Vietnam, a French colonial war where the US got involved to try to stop the spread of communism and help our allies only to have France take the first opportunity to turn tail and run with their heads between their legs. You may say with how it turned out that they were smart to get out when they did, but the fact remains that it only reinforced the France surrenders easily theme which never would have gained traction if it was just WWII.
I meant basically that Hitler would never have had the chance to become Chancellor. Thus, he would simply have been some pissed-off anti-Semite working shit jobs in Austria and blaming the Jews for his inability to make a living as either an artist or politician.
Similar to the upcoming US election results
Sad, isn't it?
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
This is just fine, of course, since the Salvadrucos were trying to put leftists into their government and the US knew that was not in the best interest of the people there. Silly El Salvador, trying to install the wrong kind of popularly supported government!
Now this is not cherry picking, it is complete ignorance. The FMLN was never supported by the majority of the country. In a few regions they managed to find broad support, like the highlands of Usulutan and in many parts of Chalatenango, but for the most part they were viewed as trouble-makers who did things like destroy bridges and other infrastructure. In some places, like Jiquilisco, even today people will lie to hide the fact that they fought on the side of the communist frente. Mostly people just wanted the war to be over, and the rebels were largely seen as the instigators of the war.
In the end, under pressure from Bush senior a truce was arranged in which the FMLN became a political party. El Salvador is now a strong democracy. There are those who still want to use their political power to turn the country into a marxist communist state, but they have never gotten close to popular support (in fact, even within their own party they've had trouble maintaining power).
Qxe4
Well, crap. Google says it's still there -- they even have the first part of it cached.
Oh well, here's a wayback link to back when it was all on one-page.
The War Nerd, on The French
Couldn't help thinking of this when I heard about Thunderbird 3! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thunderbirds_machines
You've got to admit, it is a lot more cool than an email client!
OK, so James Madison was a better political philosopher than he was a general (He actually commanded the Americans at the Battle of Bladensburg). Also, I meant no disrespect to the Dutch and Poles; I will point out that the French government could have gone to North Africa with the French Fleet, which would have aided the Allied cause, and that the Dutch refusal to surrender denied (temporarily) to the Japanese the use of the Dutch East Indies.
Well, you don't hear many jokes about Poland, The Netherlands or Belgium being invaded by the Germans. Perhaps the French history as a great nation and the cultural arrogance that comes from that makes them more of a valid target to joke about.
You've honestly never heard a Polack joke before?