what is the point in having evidence at a trial if the judge can decide what can/cannot be used? Surely in any trial ALL evidence should be investigated?
But then again I am not a lawyer so don't have a clue how these courts work. I just know that it will be the usual result at the end of the day with microsoft walking out with huge smiles.
As someone said on one of the previous posts, he will probably donate some computers to schools and get away with everything as usual.
>Ahh, but the states want all those co-mingled pieces taken out.
Well if thats the case then yes I agree but from what I have been reading in the news I thought it was just about letting people have the choice of browser/media player etc and not forcing ONLY their products on everyone.
I wouldn't know if embedded has the start button or not, most likely like most people who haven't seen it but from MS site saying it uses the same binaries as the desktop XP I assume it is an options?!?!
I know you can't run KDE without the tarballs but I know I can set the mimetypes for html so that an alternative browser appears and if I want can distribute a linux install doing just this (ie Mozilla appearing instead of Konqueror) without comeback.
MS know at the end of the day if they allow the vendors to distribute alternatives they may lose $$$$ and they won't get the computing world the way they want it and not as it should be HOW THE USER WANTS it.
It seems to me that there is confusion between the companies wanting to install their own browsers and MS wanting to remove all trace of HTML libraries. At the end of the day people want a choice of the browser they use. I don't hear them saying they want that browser to do the help system/file manager/settings/network neighbourhood etc it is purely about having a choice of what brower people want to use. Nobody is saying remove ALL trace of their HTML libraries. I dare say there are many libraries installed under linux that may not be used by the applications I have installed but I do not demand them removed like I am not expecting microsof to remove their libraries.
If you have, lets say, 5-6 major libs (WinInet, Common Controls, MMedia, etc) per app, than you will soon see these "stripped" down machines become massively bloated (100-1000 times is very resonable estimate).
Basically, just imagine statically compiling every app on your linux box against glibc.
If i install an application that needs a library I don't have I install that library and then if any other applications come along that need it they share that single install??! As far as I can remember windows does the same (VBRUN.DLL or whatever you needed to run VB applications when you didn't have the development software on that computer?
At the end of the day I understand what you are saying and agree to a certain extent. At the same time all that is being asked of microsoft is to allow anyone to replace applications with their own alternatives (obviously not crippling windows at the same time by removing essential libraries for other components). Windows isn't going to become 100-1000 times more bloated just because a vendor wants netscape to appear instead of IE and Realplayer to appear instead of Mediaplayer.
1) People want to use alternative browsers/media players for various reasons, one being I guess is because they feel it is a better product.
2) Microsoft don't want this competition so try and block other vendors from installing alternatives thereby forcing the customer to use their product.
so with these 2 points why the hell don't microsoft spend some of that $40 billion they have stashed away developing better software that people *WANT* to use and *STOP* deciding for them?. At the end of the day if people had a choice *AND* microsoft developed good software then they would still rake in the money?!?!? It seems blindingly obvious to me and the only reason they don't do this is that they know they can't develop desent software so the only way they can get their money is to put these stupid restrictions within their software.
And at the same time it will show that XP can run without IE (They say embedded is the same binary code as the full version remember) AND strangely enough isn't 100 to 1000 times more bloated (Which they claimed under oath (i assume?!?!) it would!).
She probably is.. She knows that it will BSOD all the time and place this down to it not being possible even though everybody else knows its just Windows acting as normal!... Just look at USB demo Bill Gates did a few years ago...
Excellent. Get to choose what we want to install. At last people will be able to have a 20Mb windows install and loads of space for applications of THEIR CHOICE..
This licencing agreement will make everyone run the same version of software, and the computer users will be able to work together much better than the random hodgepodge that they currently suffer through.
And the few $ left after the licence has been paid can go towards the hardware upgrades needed to run the new software "That works together".
Duh, It can help teach the kids how to make the computer do what they want??!!?. Windows teaches students how to use a mouse to select START->PROGRAMS->APPLICATION and not long after BSOD. If you want to teach the basics of programming you pay extra $/£/whatever to MS to show them that (OK the licence may let them have it free but still programs like VB still hide all the nitty-gritty INTERESTING bits).
Teaching a student BASH they can still start off with the simple 'Hello World' and progress (Usually with the displaying hundreds of Xeyes on everyone elses screen somewhere along the line!!!).
I would also think that bringing linux into schools would be a safer option. Look at all the backdoors/bugs that microsoft places in everything and knowing kids they will click on OK whatever it is telling them. At least with linux you wouldn't have to be re-installing it every week because the latest virus killed them all! (Which in turn will save time).
At the end of the day the MS-Loyalists may think linux is a bad idea in school but wouldn't you rather the money coming into (your kids?!) schools be put to better use like more (or even better) lab equipment/better facilities etc rather than to a licence to use the computers they already paid for!?!. If there was enough support for linux in schools surely the educational-software developers would port their software? They could still charge for it so they wouldn't be loosing out and it would be in everybodies interest!
The problem is that these emotions come out in a soothing blue colour. MS just filled in all the gaps with the same blue colour and put some random message/numbers there to stop you seeing that your computer really wants you to use fdisk to put it out of its misery.:)
It is blatently obvious that nothing is going to happen at the end of the trial. Microsoft is bribing the world with 'I'll remove Windows XP/ME/2000/whatever from the shelf's if you try and stop me'. He is controlling what the court hears by deciding who has their say (I was hoping to hear about their dealings with computer-vendors!!!). I expect at the end of the day they will just get a slap on their hands and told not to do it again, which they will in turn find ways around anything and keep on doing what they are good at (Forcing crap on us before people think I am saying a good OS).
Anyway only time will tell. But I do hope the judge realises that MS are walking all over them and spring a nice surprise on them (Like a major rule saying that they MUST allow competition or be heavily fined (remember they have $40 billion in liquid accets so the fines must be heavy like donate 5 Billion to cancer research (At least then MS will of done one good thing in their life!)...)
Mark.
PS. Yes I know my spelling is bad so don't bother telling me!
If you had an operation and got a new heart/liver/eyeball would you need a new WindowsXP number? Or would you have to have at least 2-3 major bodyparts replaced before this is required?
>Microsoft should do a better job of writing secure software
Exactly and that is why everyone makes comments because it is always (well 9 out of 10 at a guess) a microsoft feature/bug that allows the virus's to spread like wildfire.
i'll second that!. My girlfriend has taken quite nicely to Mandrake 8.2 and uses it like she has used it all her life!.. These days I occasionally hear (On the odd occasion she uses windows to listen to launch.yahoo.com) 'Bloody windows has crashed again... God bill gates writes shite...'. One day all these people (Who probably are beginners!) who say linux cannot be used by beginners will load it up and actally have a look at it!
Mr. Jones said the states' proposals would confuse consumers, enabling competitors to cover up icons like the "Start" button on the Windows desktop screen that consumers use to navigate and even allowing a competing operating system like Linux to start up instead of Windows.'
Who cares about the start button? Who has implied that they would want to cover the start button? It seems to me that Microsoft are just trying to scare their faithful users into sticking with them so that M$ can continute controlling their computers!. It also seems to me that the trial going on is avoiding the main issue which is that they are a monopoly by preventing competing software (OS and Desktop) from being used on their OS. Then they attack Linux?!?! Do you see the Linux users trying to block M$? Of course you don't because they want everything to work together. If the justice dept. running the trials had any sense they would force M$ to stop preventing competing software and allow all software/OS's to compete with them!. If they think their software is so great then it would win wouldn't it? But NO they know it is crap and so will try anything to stop their $ rolling in.This is when Linux will have it's big chance at taking over then desktop.
And before I get flamed for this I use both Windows at work (Because I have to) and Linux at home (although I have got my own linux box at work now:) hehehe !) and find Linux a pleasure to use over windows anyday. There is something about linux that allows you to be creative in the way you work whereas Windows just wants you to do everything the Lame-arse way...
Rant Over
Mark.
PS. I know my spelling is crap so all you smart-arse people who spell check all the comments on/. don't bother pointing this out cos I don't care!!!!
I had a sony vaio a few years ago and one day the hinge snapped. They eventually picked the machine up after claiming the machine I had didn;t exist even though I had registered the machine days after recieving it. It sat on a shelf for six weeks (Everytime I rang they said they were looking at the machine to find a fault!.. Then when I asked them for a replacement machine (something that PCWORLD has with sony if they don't repair it within 6 weeks) I got it back a few days later but now the machine switches off at random intervals (minutes to tens of minutes). I got fed up with the machine and ditched sony for an ADVENT6413 and haven't looked back since, It run's Mandrake with no problems..
I (at the time) always said I would stay with sony machines but after the crap service....So my recommendation is to get written down from the shop what the warranty/guarantee covers along with timescales for unreasonable repairs and what they will do about it.
I assume you mean many xterms prepared 'on each of the desktops!'
Apart from that I am just the same. (It's just really annoying and the end of the day when you've just got in the mood to code and they want to shut the office.).
Of course it won't it will be dragged out in the courts for years to come as Microsoft will continue to lie that they don't stiffle out the competiton. If only the gov. & courts would realise that microsoft are costing the tax payer more £/$/euro's/etc.. for the privelidge of using their bloated software and that there are alternative's which benefit everyone as a whole..
Eg Windows does not influence innovation just how to use a word processor and start button. It hides everything else. If you look at one of the other topics todo with M$ and schools I wonder why it is such a hard choice coming to this conclusion, the kids will just leave school knowing about the start button.
Now if linux did get to move into more areas innovation will spread like wildfire as people will get to know the in's and out's of computing, Kids will leave school with a better knowlege therefore better jobs.
Come on courts wherever you look on the net you will see the same story.Linux is free. There are millions of linux followers that would love to be employed to get linux in our offices/schools and everybody else who pays tax will be better off not paying the M$ tax because you are FORCED to use only M$.
Just read through the requirements and the following caught my eye..
1) USB always full power. It looks like they must have shares in battery spares!?!?.. Why should they dictate how power management works. Shouldn't they be working around the hardware instead of expecting to dictate how the hardware works...
2) Memory requirements.. Why are they asking this? They should make a system that can run in 64Mb MAX so that we can use the rest of the memory for the applications. It annoys me that with every new version of windows it takes up all the base level memory (ie when XP was released 256Mb was starting to become the norm. But XP needed that as a base just to load smoothly..)
3) Win32 Flashable BIOS.. This worries me A LOT!!. With the past realiability of Microsoft products the last thing I want them doing is playing with the BIOS. I can imagine now all the queue's in PCWORLD at the service desk because they tried installing Windows X and now their computer won't even switch on..
oh well. got to laugh at Microsoft trying once more to try and take over the world (They may get the hint one day that they can't)..
I do wonder how many people will want this version of windows with all its anti-theft rubbish. Personally when I use my computer I want to use it the way I want not they way Billy Gates want's me to. That is why I use Linux. It is fairly simple to use, The applications I need are as good (if not better) than their windows counterparts. It allows me to experiment and learn without annoying restrictions. I know what is running on my machine, I can use what I want to access my machine, I know what the machine is logging behind the scenes, I can customise what I want without voiding my licence, I don't have to pay for bug-fixes (The patches from 95 to 98 to ME to 2k to XP cost a fortune...).
It constantly amazes me that Microsoft will constantly try and force any competition out of the way by any means. Don't they realize that if linux does survive in the office then it can be revenge time for linux and block ALL M$ products. Imagine old bill's face when he realises that his product has been shown the door because it is incompatible with any of the new linux systems..
I would love it if for one day all admins running GPL webserver/dns server (or anything connected to the internet in any way) just to stop all packets with microsoft headers from getting through. Imagine how much chaos this would cause.. They would do that to us if they could so it should be us that do this to them before they do it.. I can imagine it now as a huge switch just switching Microsoft off in a fraction of a second..... how satisfying...
Mark.
Slashdot Mirror
what is the point in having evidence at a trial if the judge can decide what can/cannot be used? Surely in any trial ALL evidence should be investigated?
But then again I am not a lawyer so don't have a clue how these courts work. I just know that it will be the usual result at the end of the day with microsoft walking out with huge smiles.
As someone said on one of the previous posts, he will probably donate some computers to schools and get away with everything as usual.
Mark
>Ahh, but the states want all those co-mingled pieces taken out.
Well if thats the case then yes I agree but from what I have been reading in the news I thought it was just about letting people have the choice of browser/media player etc and not forcing ONLY their products on everyone.
Mark.
I wouldn't know if embedded has the start button or not, most likely like most people who haven't seen it but from MS site saying it uses the same binaries as the desktop XP I assume it is an options?!?!
I know you can't run KDE without the tarballs but I know I can set the mimetypes for html so that an alternative browser appears and if I want can distribute a linux install doing just this (ie Mozilla appearing instead of Konqueror) without comeback.
MS know at the end of the day if they allow the vendors to distribute alternatives they may lose $$$$ and they won't get the computing world the way they want it and not as it should be HOW THE USER WANTS it.
It seems to me that there is confusion between the companies wanting to install their own browsers and MS wanting to remove all trace of HTML libraries. At the end of the day people want a choice of the browser they use. I don't hear them saying they want that browser to do the help system/file manager/settings/network neighbourhood etc it is purely about having a choice of what brower people want to use. Nobody is saying remove ALL trace of their HTML libraries. I dare say there are many libraries installed under linux that may not be used by the applications I have installed but I do not demand them removed like I am not expecting microsof to remove their libraries.
If you have, lets say, 5-6 major libs (WinInet, Common Controls, MMedia, etc) per app, than you will soon see these "stripped" down machines become massively bloated (100-1000 times is very resonable estimate).
Basically, just imagine statically compiling every app on your linux box against glibc.
If i install an application that needs a library I don't have I install that library and then if any other applications come along that need it they share that single install??! As far as I can remember windows does the same (VBRUN.DLL or whatever you needed to run VB applications when you didn't have the development software on that computer?
At the end of the day I understand what you are saying and agree to a certain extent. At the same time all that is being asked of microsoft is to allow anyone to replace applications with their own alternatives (obviously not crippling windows at the same time by removing essential libraries for other components). Windows isn't going to become 100-1000 times more bloated just because a vendor wants netscape to appear instead of IE and Realplayer to appear instead of Mediaplayer.
Mark.
1) People want to use alternative browsers/media players for various reasons, one being I guess is because they feel it is a better product.
2) Microsoft don't want this competition so try and block other vendors from installing alternatives thereby forcing the customer to use their product.
so with these 2 points why the hell don't microsoft spend some of that $40 billion they have stashed away developing better software that people *WANT* to use and *STOP* deciding for them?. At the end of the day if people had a choice *AND* microsoft developed good software then they would still rake in the money?!?!? It seems blindingly obvious to me and the only reason they don't do this is that they know they can't develop desent software so the only way they can get their money is to put these stupid restrictions within their software.
Mark.
And at the same time it will show that XP can run without IE (They say embedded is the same binary code as the full version remember) AND strangely enough isn't 100 to 1000 times more bloated (Which they claimed under oath (i assume?!?!) it would!).
Mark.
She probably is.. She knows that it will BSOD all the time and place this down to it not being possible even though everybody else knows its just Windows acting as normal!... Just look at USB demo Bill Gates did a few years ago...
Excellent. Get to choose what we want to install. At last people will be able to have a 20Mb windows install and loads of space for applications of THEIR CHOICE..
This licencing agreement will make everyone run the same version of software, and the computer users will be able to work together much better than the random hodgepodge that they currently suffer through.
And the few $ left after the licence has been paid can go towards the hardware upgrades needed to run the new software "That works together".
Duh, It can help teach the kids how to make the computer do what they want??!!?. Windows teaches students how to use a mouse to select START->PROGRAMS->APPLICATION and not long after BSOD. If you want to teach the basics of programming you pay extra $/£/whatever to MS to show them that (OK the licence may let them have it free but still programs like VB still hide all the nitty-gritty INTERESTING bits).
Teaching a student BASH they can still start off with the simple 'Hello World' and progress (Usually with the displaying hundreds of Xeyes on everyone elses screen somewhere along the line!!!).
I would also think that bringing linux into schools would be a safer option. Look at all the backdoors/bugs that microsoft places in everything and knowing kids they will click on OK whatever it is telling them. At least with linux you wouldn't have to be re-installing it every week because the latest virus killed them all! (Which in turn will save time).
At the end of the day the MS-Loyalists may think linux is a bad idea in school but wouldn't you rather the money coming into (your kids?!) schools be put to better use like more (or even better) lab equipment/better facilities etc rather than to a licence to use the computers they already paid for!?!. If there was enough support for linux in schools surely the educational-software developers would port their software? They could still charge for it so they wouldn't be loosing out and it would be in everybodies interest!
Mark.
The problem is that these emotions come out in a soothing blue colour. MS just filled in all the gaps with the same blue colour and put some random message/numbers there to stop you seeing that your computer really wants you to use fdisk to put it out of its misery. :)
here here
It is blatently obvious that nothing is going to happen at the end of the trial. Microsoft is bribing the world with 'I'll remove Windows XP/ME/2000/whatever from the shelf's if you try and stop me'. He is controlling what the court hears by deciding who has their say (I was hoping to hear about their dealings with computer-vendors!!!). I expect at the end of the day they will just get a slap on their hands and told not to do it again, which they will in turn find ways around anything and keep on doing what they are good at (Forcing crap on us before people think I am saying a good OS).
Anyway only time will tell. But I do hope the judge realises that MS are walking all over them and spring a nice surprise on them (Like a major rule saying that they MUST allow competition or be heavily fined (remember they have $40 billion in liquid accets so the fines must be heavy like donate 5 Billion to cancer research (At least then MS will of done one good thing in their life!)...)
Mark.
PS. Yes I know my spelling is bad so don't bother telling me!
I just watched 'ANTITRUST' and thought it was only open source programmers they killed off.
hehehe
>I know because I work for the Microsoft...
The Microsoft? I read this and instantly read it as I know because I work for 'the Borg'...
Anyway why are you posting as AC? If microsoft are so big and hard then why hide behind AC?
Answer: Because you know you are talking crap!
If you had an operation and got a new heart/liver/eyeball would you need a new WindowsXP number? Or would you have to have at least 2-3 major bodyparts replaced before this is required?
hehehe
Mark.
>Microsoft should do a better job of writing secure software
Exactly and that is why everyone makes comments because it is always (well 9 out of 10 at a guess) a microsoft feature/bug that allows the virus's to spread like wildfire.
Mark.
[sarcasm]Because people believe their god 'BILLG' will protect them with his 'superior' software.[/sarcasm]
M.
i'll second that!. My girlfriend has taken quite nicely to Mandrake 8.2 and uses it like she has used it all her life!.. These days I occasionally hear (On the odd occasion she uses windows to listen to launch.yahoo.com) 'Bloody windows has crashed again... God bill gates writes shite...'.
One day all these people (Who probably are beginners!) who say linux cannot be used by beginners will load it up and actally have a look at it!
Mark.
Mr. Jones said the states' proposals would confuse consumers, enabling competitors to cover up icons like the "Start" button on the Windows desktop screen that consumers use to navigate and even allowing a competing operating system like Linux to start up instead of Windows.'
:) hehehe !) and find Linux a pleasure to use over windows anyday. There is something about linux that allows you to be creative in the way you work whereas Windows just wants you to do everything the Lame-arse way...
/. don't bother pointing this out cos I don't care!!!!
Who cares about the start button? Who has implied that they would want to cover the start button? It seems to me that Microsoft are just trying to scare their faithful users into sticking with them so that M$ can continute controlling their computers!.
It also seems to me that the trial going on is avoiding the main issue which is that they are a monopoly by preventing competing software (OS and Desktop) from being used on their OS. Then they attack Linux?!?! Do you see the Linux users trying to block M$? Of course you don't because they want everything to work together. If the justice dept. running the trials had any sense they would force M$ to stop preventing competing software and allow all software/OS's to compete with them!. If they think their software is so great then it would win wouldn't it? But NO they know it is crap and so will try anything to stop their $ rolling in.This is when Linux will have it's big chance at taking over then desktop.
And before I get flamed for this I use both Windows at work (Because I have to) and Linux at home (although I have got my own linux box at work now
Rant Over
Mark.
PS. I know my spelling is crap so all you smart-arse people who spell check all the comments on
I had a sony vaio a few years ago and one day the hinge snapped. They eventually picked the machine up after claiming the machine I had didn;t exist even though I had registered the machine days after recieving it. It sat on a shelf for six weeks (Everytime I rang they said they were looking at the machine to find a fault!.. Then when I asked them for a replacement machine (something that PCWORLD has with sony if they don't repair it within 6 weeks) I got it back a few days later but now the machine switches off at random intervals (minutes to tens of minutes). I got fed up with the machine and ditched sony for an ADVENT6413 and haven't looked back since, It run's Mandrake with no problems..
I (at the time) always said I would stay with sony machines but after the crap service....So my recommendation is to get written down from the shop what the warranty/guarantee covers along with timescales for unreasonable repairs and what they will do about it.
Rant over
Mark.
I assume you mean many xterms prepared 'on each of the desktops!'
Apart from that I am just the same. (It's just really annoying and the end of the day when you've just got in the mood to code and they want to shut the office.).
Mark
> Will this ever end !!!
Of course it won't it will be dragged out in the courts for years to come as Microsoft will continue to lie that they don't stiffle out the competiton. If only the gov. & courts would realise that microsoft are costing the tax payer more £/$/euro's/etc.. for the privelidge of using their bloated software and that there are alternative's which benefit everyone as a whole..
Eg Windows does not influence innovation just how to use a word processor and start button. It hides everything else. If you look at one of the other topics todo with M$ and schools I wonder why it is such a hard choice coming to this conclusion, the kids will just leave school knowing about the start button.
Now if linux did get to move into more areas innovation will spread like wildfire as people will get to know the in's and out's of computing, Kids will leave school with a better knowlege therefore better jobs.
Come on courts wherever you look on the net you will see the same story.Linux is free. There are millions of linux followers that would love to be employed to get linux in our offices/schools and everybody else who pays tax will be better off not paying the M$ tax because you are FORCED to use only M$.
Rant over
Mark.
Just read through the requirements and the following caught my eye..
1) USB always full power. It looks like they must have shares in battery spares!?!?.. Why should they dictate how power management works. Shouldn't they be working around the hardware instead of expecting to dictate how the hardware works...
2) Memory requirements.. Why are they asking this? They should make a system that can run in 64Mb MAX so that we can use the rest of the memory for the applications. It annoys me that with every new version of windows it takes up all the base level memory (ie when XP was released 256Mb was starting to become the norm. But XP needed that as a base just to load smoothly..)
3) Win32 Flashable BIOS
oh well. got to laugh at Microsoft trying once more to try and take over the world (They may get the hint one day that they can't)..
I do wonder how many people will want this version of windows with all its anti-theft rubbish. Personally when I use my computer I want to use it the way I want not they way Billy Gates want's me to. That is why I use Linux. It is fairly simple to use, The applications I need are as good (if not better) than their windows counterparts. It allows me to experiment and learn without annoying restrictions. I know what is running on my machine, I can use what I want to access my machine, I know what the machine is logging behind the scenes, I can customise what I want without voiding my licence, I don't have to pay for bug-fixes (The patches from 95 to 98 to ME to 2k to XP cost a fortune...).
Anyway rant over...
Mark.
is it once Windows installed? I am guessing it may just be as fast as a 2GHz Pentium with 256Mb running linux?
Mark
It constantly amazes me that Microsoft will constantly try and force any competition out of the way by any means. Don't they realize that if linux does survive in the office then it can be revenge time for linux and block ALL M$ products. Imagine old bill's face when he realises that his product has been shown the door because it is incompatible with any of the new linux systems..
I would love it if for one day all admins running GPL webserver/dns server (or anything connected to the internet in any way) just to stop all packets with microsoft headers from getting through. Imagine how much chaos this would cause.. They would do that to us if they could so it should be us that do this to them before they do it.. I can imagine it now as a huge switch just switching Microsoft off in a fraction of a second..... how satisfying... Mark.