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Gates Testifies in Antitrust Suit
teamhasnoi writes "Bill Gates is testifying today in the Microsoft antitrust case.
Here's the 5 page executive summary (pdf) and
here's the 163-page full version (1.1 MB pdf). Bill waxes on about the early days, talks about .NET, xml, and why Microsoft should not be penalized for its role as 800 lb. Gorilla. (Developers, Developers, Developers)" Other readers point to the BBC story on Gates' testimony, as well as a similar one at Yahoo!.
Karma? Karma? I don't need no stinkin' karma.
isn't it obvious to anyone else that he's simply too powerful? why can't we just burn him at the stake before it's too late?
It read more like he was going for a job interview, selling himself, or something. When are they going to learn to question this guy rather than letting him control everything?
We know you can separate IE from Windows.
We know you use your leverage to stifle competition.
You're a 900 lb gorilla, you've been acting like one, now we're going to treat you like one.
Who would have guessed that proprietary software would make itself undesirable because of the extreme aggressiveness of the companies that sell it?
Two days on the stand will cost Bill Gates more money than I will make in a decade if I continue with my current line of work.
Something about that disparity upsets me.
Well, in some sense, yeah. That's about the last time Windows was an operating system and just an operating system, as opposed to a forcibly-bundled OS, browser, media player, photo editor, etc., etc., isn't it?
"...stability, consistency and quality of Windows..." Well one out of three ain't bad - it IS consistent!
of work.
If Bill isn't going to employ them, when he's the one who put on the street, then what is he talking about?
--Blair
Isn't that sort of the point? A crippled Microsoft is EXACTLY what the US states want, so giving other companies a chance to fix the mess they've made of the computing industry.
Seriously, why bother. The way the govt's going its pretty much foretold that MS will survive unscathed. It looks impossible that *anyone* or *anything* will stop the Microsoft steamroller.
Unless a lot of changes happen in the Linux world (attitude changes, improvements in desktop usability, improvements in the installation process)
AND
regular users start to become pressured by Microsoft's policies in ways that *directly* affect them...(i.e. people soon become unable to pirate MS products...)
NOTHING will change. Almost no 'normal' user I know chooses Linux - only people who love to tinker with their systems.
I wonder how long it will take before I get modded down for not toeing the party line...a few mins?
I'm still waiting for a "what about the children?!?" moment.
Hmm. Then again, I probably shouldn't hold my breath.
There is an HTML version of the 163-page version on Microsoft's web site.
"There is no clear dividing line between where a particular block of "middleware" ends and the rest of the operating system begins," Gates said.
Maybe Gates should go back to being CEO instead of Chief Software Architect!
Greee.. I typed this all in and Slashdot died and Ie wouldn't go back and kept displaying a "Friendly Error" insteady of just a dialog box! AHHHHHHHHHH! *stifle the anger*
Anway.. Microsoft needs to do what Linux has been doing for ages and what Macintosh is currentyl doing. Forget about upgrading like they are currently doing and do a re-write.. making sure everything is secure and works right!
Sure they say windows 2000 isn't on MS-DOS but really?
So we see:
Starting Windows |||||||||||||
Instead of:
Staring MS-DOS......
There's no difference.. and while the stabilility has gotten better... it's not good or near linux.
Active Directories.. don't even talk to me about that! They are confusing and complex! Novell is so much easier to use. Goodness Bill! Just startover.. don't try to release a new O/S every year! Take 2 or 3 and let's make this thing good. We don't need to upgrade and for goodnessgracious Bill, dump the XP "simplification"
Myself, I chose to ditch windows because it sucked royally.
--- What?
From this article:
Hey, wait a second...
... fear, uncertainty, and doubt?
Finding God in a Dog
Will this ever end !!!
Heres how I feel:
DON'T use linux in the "average joe-shmoe desktop environment". At least not in the conventional way.
Instead, get a project going to make an OS _targeted_ for the desktop. Even feel free to use Linux/*BSD kernels and librarys. Just don't have what the normal Linux distro tends to be - A very UNIX like system with X and maybe KDE or GNOME slapped on top.
This is not the greatest sig in the world, no. This is just a tribute.
If you didn't understand the monkey boy/developers reference, go here: http://www.ntk.net/ballmer/mirrors.html
:)
------
Random, useless fact: I type in startx entirely with my left hand.
that MS keeps talking about the damage to MS and the PC ecosystem.
MS was found to be a monopoly that abused its monopoly status to further its business. why should business that was illegally obtained be protected. it's as though they should be let off of the hook since they got away with it for so long. this is similar to a person stealing a car, getting caught after a year, and then being allowed to keep the stolen car because he'd already had it for a year.
as far as the PC ecosystem is concerned, it is just as ridiculous. MS probably did have a lot to do with standardizing a PC platform way back in the infancy of desktop PC use. but now they are saying innovation will stop and things will be set back if people are allowed to use things other than Windows to do Windows tasks. this is not necessarily the case. if companies are allowed to make emulators/interpreters/compatibilty programs, all of the existing software out there would still work. people would have the choice of using native software or the generic Windows software on their systems. the only ones hurt in this scenario is Microsoft. letting more (non-MS) software interact with Windows would make things even more compatible than they are now. People just wouldn't have to depend on a single OS / Office vendor to provide compatibility.
other companies should not have to help cover MS's r&d expense for MS Office. MS talks about this like they are the only ones who ever thought of making word processor and spreadsheet programs. the only secrets that would be unveiled would be the wacky MS file formats.
in spite of all of this, i think MS will come out of this trial with a slap on the wrist and monopolistic business practices will continue
you probably shouldn't have read this.
I think the astounding part of this is that Gates has come to the point of arguing that modular software is bad, and not only that, impossible. When in fact Microsoft fully understands the value of modularity and is really in the mainstream of software engineering on the issue of modular == good.
What they really think is that exposing modularity in a fair way will hurt MS, but what they are arguing goes so much further... it's a little worrisome if I thought anyone would believe him at his word.
Odd Thought: I wonder if they really want to stop shipping windows but can only do this if they blame the Government. MSUnix without losing face ("they made us"). (Note: I didn't say MSLinux)
-pyrrho
Why do I get the feeling that this story will spell the end of the Great Blackout?
Ryan T. Sammartino
"Ancora imparo"
you mean like Mac OS X?
The problem is if you mention that there are problems with the current way of doing two things you get the following responses:
1) Linux is not hard, Windows is
2) Linux is so much better than MS in so many ways!
3) Who cares about (l)users [their (l) not mine], since they are computer illiterate they are *obviously* stupid
4) The current way is the best way!!! There is *no* possible way to get better
Bah
Gates said the nine states threaten Windows' existence as a stable platform...
...cough... code monkeys!
:)
Sorry bill, but it's not the states threatening this, it's your own
really tho, it seems like MS is using blatant lies in their testimony, can we say perjury? wouldn't it be nice to smack 'em all in the face with that?
In written testimony submitted after he was sworn in, Gates argued that penalties the states have proposed would give Microsoft's competitors an unfair advantage.
Good...it's doing its job. That's exactly what this is meant to do. M$ has held an unfair monopoly over the industry for years, and this is meant to give other companies the chance to strip some of their power away.
As a monopoly, everything that comprises Windoze and Office are the result of ill-gotten gains and should be plundered like M$ has done to others in the past.
If it is sucessful, this could be what brings the tech industry out of its current slump...
If your shit was architected properly in the first place, it would be trivial to separate the "toys" from the kernel.
Now, if by removing the extras like IE we're crippling your OS, that's YOUR problem.
Do it and shut up so we can all go home.
MadCow.
I used to have a sig, but I set it free and it never came back.
There was this good Register story a while ago where a Sun director talked about customers' expectations from a *software* vendor. The word `sedimentation' was mentioned. And that's precisely the problem: from MS to Redhat to Sun, everyone bundles, is forced to, or goes out of business because that's what the customer wants.
But the people (or their backstage paymasters) focus on buzzwords like `bundling' and push for stupid remedies like ``releasing windows' source'' and all. Yeah right. Like that's gonna happen. The thing to do would have been fine MS (heavily -- they sure can afford it, with 36bn(!) in cash -- for restrictive OEM licenses, cause a world of hurt to their bottom line, and move on.
But for MS' many (whiny) competitors, legal eagles are now substituting for credible tech competition and decent business plans. And so the lawsuit has become a hem-the-giant-in game, even as these very same whiners continue haemorrhaging money. These losers don't deserve any sympathy at all.
"You Lied To Me!"
(ala South Park the Movie)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_U.S._Election_c
"We know you can separate IE from Windows"
Im sure it's POSSIBLE to remove IE from Windows, but man I sure don't trust MS to do it. In IE 6, they removed support for Netscape Style Plugins, yet when you have that type of plug-in in the plugins folder it still installs itself into the registry and tries to run as a mime type. In other words, they turned off one feature but not another.
If they won't take the time to implement a good solution for removing NS Style Plug-ins, I can only imagine the half assed job MS'd do of removing IE.
"Derp de derp."
I just read an article about how the government is deciding which vendor / vendors to go with concerning the mandated use of some type of "passport" system for all users of the internet in the US.
heres on story on it:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/busine
After reading it I realized why Microsoft created
Microsoft's entire new technology shift to XP,
Getting corporate america to sign on to any of Microsoft's new technologies is just a bonus.
... is like the one from South Park...
General: "Bill Gates, I thought you said Windows 98 was going to be faster and more stable!"
Bill: It is, it's over a 100..."
BLAM! The general shoots him in the head.
General: "Get him out of here..."
...about the Mac bundling iMovie, iTunes, iThis, iThat; or Linux bundling every media tool in existence as part of their respective operating systems? It's a 'forcibly bundled browser, media player, etc.' Oh, I forgot, it's because MS sux0rs and anything else r0x0rs. 'Scuze me, I think I stepped into the wrong thread. /gleffler
"Microsoft today is investing heavily in XML Web Services, a next-generation computing platform that holds the potential to unleash new waives of productivity gains in the economy."
Amazingly truthful for a Microsoft statement, but I think it would have been clearer to say "throw away", or "forsake" instead of "waives" productivity gains.
Aren't CE and the OS on XBOX versions of Windows? If they can alter Windows for those platforms they can adhere to the state court order. any excuse is bull.
Bill Gates puts a lot of emphasis on the protection of Microsoft's intellectual property and how the nine states' rememdies will "force" Microsoft to give its IP to competitors. Gates is using essentially the same arguments to defend itself in the trial and attacks on the GPL--the need to protect Microsoft's "innovation." Gates is projecting his own interests to be the interests of the world.
The new judge should see Bill Gates' self-centered ego, like Judge Jackson who thought Gates has a Napoleon-like mentality.
Wonder when will Microsoft begin to claim the nine states are "intellectual property destroyers" or are conspiring with Richard Stallman against Microsoft...
Free Software: the software by the people, of the people and for the people. Develop! Share! Enhance! Enjoy!
xpdf is a GPL'ed PDF viewer.
2 %2 C105%2C154
http://freshmeat.net/projects/xpdf/?topic_id=11
Brian
there is a great explanation for this 163 nightmare
proprietary software is not customizeable. all of the rememedies could be made if the software was open source, as vendors could rewrite parts of it, and then submit them. they would get accepted if they were truly better.
i think a judge should look at this, and say 'you produced 163 pages of absolute bullshit why your company cannot exist if we implement these fair remedies. instead of implementing your remedies, we have decided to close your company, you do not serve the public interest, you have lost rights to exist as you know it'
does somebody have to read the whole document? is microsoft counting on them getting tired and giving up?
Wait, nevermind. I don't want to know what's on your mind.
What's really sad is that this thinly veiled PR mantra still has not lost it's effect. That's because it's more convenient in the current "free" market zeitgeist to buy into it. "We don't need the government designing software, it would hurt the consumer," goes this shallow line of reasoning. As a result, judges can't base their decisions based on what's fair or just but on what's "good" for the consumer, no matter how full of shit the argument is.
Microsoft has been able to spin their whole defense around this simple-minded argument. They claim that software is somehow special and different and should be left in the hands of the technology Gods on Mt. Microsoft.
I say bullshit. The world should not have to bend over backwards to meet the vision of some narrow-minded, profit-driven software engineers. The world existed before Windows or any software "standards" forced on the market by Microsoft. It's a pretty safe assumption the world will keep churning right along without them.
<a href="http://www.joblessjimmy.com">Work is dumb and so is Jobless Jimmy.</a>
So today Bill Gates testified...I may actually read all 163 pages of his testimony.
I just don't get what they expect to get out of this. All the states in it are so damned concerned about MS releasing a version of Windows without IE.
SO FUCKING WHAT?
First off - does anyone really think that a vendor is gonna replace IE or the MS-HTML rendering engine with a piece-of-has-been like Netscape?
Second, why don't the vendors just do it already? Remove the IE icon from the desktop, start bar, etc... and put Netscape or something else on there?
Why - it's not because Windows isn't modular - anyone can do the above. It's because the vendors have signed contracts with MS saying for the deep discounts they are not allowed to remove IE or put NS on, or any of that.
So instead of going after MS and their contracts, the states are gonna force MS to produce a version of windows without IE, so the vendors can license it instead of Windows with IE just so they can put something other than IE on there.
And ya know what - I bet that the price point will be so wrong that the vendors will instead still license the regular version of Windows with IE because MS won't offer a contract for the other version that is cost-efficiant for the vendors.
Does anyone here remember what Windows was like 8-10 years ago? It was a fuckin mess.
While I fully agree that MS has the ability to add things to the OS to squish competition:
- the MS stuff is usually better than the competition - sad but true
- what's next? Now it's HTML. What if some company comes along and claims that MS is killing their market for lightweight text editors (Wordpad/Notepad) or add-on file systems, or memory management. Where does it stop?
And who filed this suit? It started out as a US antitrust suit, and the US backed off. Now the states are going at it - thirsty for blood I guess. I could see if Netscape filed a suit, but I don't buy the state's argument of the consumer being hurt. The consumer gets a stable suite (well...stable compared to a patchwork of OS, applications from different vendors, etc...) that is very intergrated.
Yes - Microsoft have a monopoly, but only because all these vendors signed into these contracts with them that further promoted MS products. Adding a browser to the OS did not use their monopoly status to force others out of the market.
Adding a few lines to a contract did.
Point 414 in his testimony seems aimed at the .NET and its cloning by mono.
If Bill Gates does not want this to happen, is he going to allow mono to go ahead?, I sincerely think not.
What are all these commercial products Bill is talking about that require MS middleware to run? If IE or Mediaplayer were gone, what other programs would crash? Is this more FUD? The only thing I can think of is DirectX, and I'm not sure that qualifies as middleware. It's updated so often anyway that the games that use it usually have a version on their CD that can be installed. And another thing...why aren't the States' lawyers asking these questions?
Do you think attitudes are changing though? Do you think people are actually trying to think about the user? I agree with a number of people who've bought this point up. Just because a lot of people aren't comfortable with computers it doesn't make them stupid. On the contrary, they're probably more competent than us in a number of areas. I for one know that I don't know what the heck goes on in my car and wouldn't be able to fix it if something happened. OTOH, my auto mechanic would, but he is in no way comfortable around computers... Everyone has different strengths
instead of Marijuana: The Wonder Drug:
;-), Homer mentions to
Courtesy of About 420
Connotative Use/Meaning
420 is a phreak's (and not just a hippie's) favorite number for a
variety of reasons, or maybe for no reason at all, but colloquially
the number says pot -- "let's smoke pot", or "someone's smoking
pot", or "gee, i really like pot", or "time to smoke pot", either by
time (4:20 a.m. or p.m.), date (April 20th), or otherwise (e.g. State
Route 420). April 20th at 4:20 is marked by annual events in
Mount Tamalpais, CA (an informal gathering); Marin Conty, CA
(the 420 Hemp Fest); Ann Arbor, MI (the Hash Bash); and
Washington, D.C. (buildup towards the July 4th Smoke-In).
Original Source(s)
Conventional wisdom: The most common tale is that 420 is the
police radio code or criminal code (and therefore the police "call")
in certain part(s) of California (e.g. in Los Angeles or San
Francisco) for having spotted someone consuming cannabis
publicly, i.e. "pot smoking in progress"; that local cannabis users
picked up on the code and began celebrating the number temporally
(esp. 4:20 a.m., 4:20 p.m., and April 20); that the number became
nationally popularized in the late 1980s and, more ferverently, in
the early- to mid-1990s; and is colloquially applied to a variety of
relaxed and/or inspired contexts, including not only pot
consumption but also a "good time" more generally (in contrast to
the drug war surrounding).
Conventions are legends: 420 is not police radio code for
anything, anywhere. Checks of criminal codes (including those of
the City of San Francisco, the City of Los Angeles, Los Angeles
County, the State of California, and the federal penal code) suggest
that the origin is neither Californian nor federal (the two best
guesses). For instance, California Penal Code 420 defines as a
misdemeanor the hindrance of use ("obstructing entry") of public
lands, and California Family Code 420 defines what constitutes a
wedding ceremony (Marco). One state does come close: "The
Illinois Department of Revenue classifies the Alcoholic Liquor Act
under Part 420, and the Cannabis and Controlled Substances Tax
Act are next, under Part 428." (RB 5/19/99)
True story?: "According to Steven Hager, editor of High Times,
the term 420 originated at San Rafael High School, in 1971,
among a group of about a dozen pot-smoking wiseacres who
called themselves the Waldos. The term 420 was shorthand for the
time of day the group would meet, at the campus statue of Louis
Pasteur, to smoke pot. ``Waldo Steve,'' a member of the group who
now owns a business in San Francisco, says the Waldos would
salute each other in the school hallway and say ``420 Louis!'' The
term was one of many invented by the group, but it was the one
that caught on. ``It was just a joke, but it came to mean all kinds of
things, like `Do you have any?' or `Do I look stoned?' '' he said.
``Parents and teachers wouldn't know what we were talking about.''
The term took root, and flourished, and spread beyond San Rafael
with the assistance of the Grateful Dead and their dedicated cohort
of pot-smoking fans. The Waldos decided to assert their claim to
the history of the term after decades of watching it spread, mutate
and be appropriated by commercial interests. The Waldos contacted
Hager, and presented him with evidence of 420's history, primarily
a collection of postmarked letters from the early '70s with lots of
mention of 420. They also started a Web site, waldo420.com. ``We
have proof, we were the first,'' Waldo Steve said. ``I mean, it's not
like we wrote a book or invented anything. We just came up with a
phrase. But it's kind of an honor that this emanated from San
Rafael.''" Maria Alicia Gaura for the San Francisco Chronicle,
4/20/00 p. A19; and thanks to Noah Cole for the submission
Alternate explanations
There are a variety of other explanations, all much more interesting
than "police code", and many plausible. Some are more likely uses
of the 420/hemp connection rather than sources of it, such as the
score for the football game in Fast Times at Ridgement High,
42-0.
Known Myths: It isn't police code (see above). There are 315
chemicals in marijuana, not 420. And although tea time in
Amsterdam is rumored to be 4:20, it is actually 5:30 (Gerhard
den Hollander).
Sixties Songs: For instance, Bob Dylan's famous "Rainy Day
Women #12 and 35" is a possible reference, or source --
12x35=420. And Stephen Stills wrote (and Crosby Stills Nash
& Young performed) a song "4+20" (first recorded 7/16/69,
released on Deja Vu 3/11/70) about an 84-year-old
poverty-stricken man who started and finished with nothing.
(Thanks to Sherry Keel 12/6/98.) Dylan aslo mentions "4 and
20 windows" in "The Balland of Frankie Lee and Judas Priest"
(on John Wesley Harding).
Older Verse: But 420 in poetry is older than that - Greg
Keller notes the old nursery rhyme line, "four and twenty
black birds baked in a pie". Revelation 5:14 (in the King
James Version of the Christian Bible) reads, "And the four
beasts said 'A-Men.' And the four and twenty elders fell down
and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever." (Travis
Spurley 2/15/99) And in Midnight's_Children, Salman
Rushdie wrote, "Inevitably, a number of these children failed
to survive. Malnutrition, disease and the misfortunes of
everyday life had accounted for no less than four hundred and
twenty of them by the time I became conscious of their
existence; although it is possible to hypothesize that these
deaths, too, had their purpose, since 420 has been, since time
immemorial, the number associated with fraud, deception and
trickery." (Comet 2/14/98) Comet's "best guess is that this
refers to something in Indian mythology or numerology, since
the book is set in India and frequently involves Indian history,
culture, and religion. Given the high interest in Eastern
religion among the phish/dead community, this seems a likely
origin of 420's current significance."
Temporal Significance: "Hands on analog clock at 4:20 look
like position of doobie dangling from mouth" "Larry in
Tuscan" and Alex Mack 5/19/99). Disruptive students are out
of detention and safetly away from school by 4:20, also
rumored to be "the time that you should dose to be peaking
when the Dead went on stage" Hart. "The Waldos" were a
group of teens back in the 70's that lived in San Rafael, CA.
420 was the way they talked about pot in front of teachers,
non-smoking family members etc. Also it was the time of day
they could just go relax, and get baked." ("PhunkCellar")
Jamaicans purportedly "worked till 4 then walked home then
lit up. They would talk 420 like our parents talked about after
5. That's when partying began" "Larry in Tuscan"). Albert (not
Abbie) Hofmann supposedly first encountered LSD at 4:20
p.m. on 4/19/1943 (Bart Coleman citing Storming Heaven by
Jay Stevens, recommended by Mickey Hart in Planet Drum).
Surrealist painter Miro was born April 20, 1893. And
www.filmspeed.com says the propoganda film Reefer
Madness has a copyright date of April 20, 1936 (i.e. 4/20).
(Patrick Woolford)
Misc: Could be that it comes from hydroponics, the practice
of cultivating plants in water often used by indoor marijuana
cultivators, since 4 is used for H on a calculator (420/H20).
(Nick Lowe 3/30/00) The number 80 (eight) is "quatre vingt"
(pronounced "cah-truh vahn"), meaning "four (times} twenty".
Dan Nijjar 1/27/00 (No connection yet between the number
80 and pot. A quarter pound is roughly 120 grams, rounding
quarter-ounces to 7.5.) The titanic was supposed to arrive
4/20/1912. (Thanks to RB.) Perhaps the heavy use of vt420
terminals in the Berkeley area is to blame? (BTW, 420 in
binary code is 110100100.)
Ubiquitous?
Now there's a 420 Pale Ale. One of the late-97/early-98 "Got
Milk" ads featured a character eating cookies without milk and
then passing a sign that reads "Next Rest Area 420 miles" (as Ross
Bruning). Reportedly, all of the clocks in the movie Pulp Fiction
are stuck on 4:20. Shirts with the number 420 on the red-and-blue
interstate highway shield (Interstate 420?) have show up on the
sitcom Will and Grace (Paul Risenhoover 5/14/99) and in several
videos. UPS' labelling software has a "420 postal code" legend for
next-day/2-day deliveries (which is how Phish tickets are sent).
(Jack Lebowitz 10/3/98) MTV's 1997 Viewer's Choice Award (for
the MTV Video Awards) was decided by calls to
1-800-420-4MTV. And by May of 1998, the number was
appearing in so many ads (eg Copenhagen 5/14/98 Rolling Stone
p54, Corvette p55 5/98 Car & Driver) that its presence is
presumed to be intentional. Many songs are around 4 minutes 20
seconds long (since many songs fall between 2:30 and 5:30),
including for example Pink Floyd's "A Great Day for Freedom" (on
The Division Bell, 1994), the Foo Fighters' "My Hero", and
"Smokin'" from Boston's first album. "There have also been some
420 references on The Simpsons. In the re-run episode aired on
April 20th, 1999 at a special time (probably in honor of those
college students staying in the holiday spirit
Flanders that Barney's birthday is April 20th. Also, the jackpot sign
in one part of the casino says $420,000. There are a couple less
concrete ones, but these two have to be legit, especially since they
decided to air THAT particular episode on 4/20/99." (Submitted by
Matt Meehan 4/21/99) And (as of Fall '99) the 60 free minutes that
Working Assets Long Distance offers, at the 7 cents per minute
rate, is $4.20 free. There's even a band named 420, and another
names . In the first fifteen pages of Karel Capek's novel War with
the Newts, a man diving under wonder stayed down for four
minutes and twenty seconds. Grant Garstka 1/6/00 At the
suggested retail price ($3.96) and Michigan (6%) sales tax, a deck
of Uno cards costs $4.20. Nic Boris 4:20 marks the first downbeat
of the drums in Led Zeppelin's epic "Stairway to Heaven." (Dan
Harris) The bill authorizing force after the World Trade Center
attacks of 9/11/01 passed 420 to 1, and news reports in following
months noted many times that there are (or were then, anyway) 420
airports in the U.S. Allan Morris And don't forget that Adolf Hitler
was born on April 20, macabely "celebrated" (or at least
referenced) via the Columbine High School shootings.
Phish-related Occurances
Whatever the origin, the number appears frequently... For the
summer 1997 tour, TicketMaster service charges were $4.20. In
the Fall 1997 Doniac Schvice Dry Goods section, a limited edition
Pollack poster printed on 100% hemp is order number 420P. The
Great Went was 420 miles from Boston (former home of Phish).
The official logo includes 4 gills and 20 bubbles ("Gringo"
11/12/98). As of 6/15/97, including covers and originals, Phish
had performed a total of 420 songs (thought its 486 by 4/24/98).
(David Steinberg). Lawnboy is 420megs of memory. Patrick
Walker Phish's The Vibration of Life underlies a whirling loop
with Seven Beats per second (which makes 420 beats per minute.)
Trey has used the altered line "woke up at 4:20" in "Makisupa
Policeman", which also often indirectly celebrates 420ing, e.g. by
mention of goo balls. One of the funniest shirts around takes light
jabs at both the 4:20 phenomenon and the rumored evolution
(collapse?) of the Phish.Net (especially rec.music.phish) from
being Gamehendge to Flamehendge, and beyond. The first day of
the Great Went started at 4:20 (with Makisupa Policeman. (The
second day started late, at 4:37.) Noah Cole The first single from
Slip Stitch and Pass was played on WBCN 10/14/97 at 4:20 pm.
An uproar at 12/31/96 can be heard on tape during the 2001, in
response to an enormous digital clock (which was counting down
to midnight) reaching 11:55:40 and reading "-4:20". (Yoda)
During the 9-12-00 2001, Trey hits the first riff right at 4:20 into
the intro jam. (Cal 2/25/01) Some mail order tickets for the 1997
New Year's run were in section 420. The first Mass Pike toll
leaving Oswego was $4.20. (Camille Heath ) And the standard
shipping for The Phish Companion through Amazon was
originally $4.20.
420 Shows: Phish performed on April 20 in 1989, 1990, 1991,
1993, and 1994. The first day of the Great Went started at 4:20,
although that was called a soundcheck by Trey after three songs.
The Jazzfest Harry Hood 4-26-96 started at about 4:20 reported by
Trevor. At Big Cypress, "David Bowie" was playing at 4:20 a.m.
And the one event during the "hiatus" (10/8/00 - ?) featuring all
four members - for Jason Colton's wedding - was 12/1/01, 420
from: http://www.phish.net/faq/n420.html:
All three!?... uhmmm lets see..
1) embrace
2) extend
3) extinguish
???
.sig? Get your own damn
He told the US district judge, Colleen Kollar-Kotelly, that the remedies demanded by nine states would set Microsoft's Windows operating system back 10 years.
All jokes about this putting the state-of-the-
Windoze-art back to 1962 aside, this is not
necessarily a bad thing. Microsoft has become rather
complacent with its position as "leader". That
complacency has led to some truly shoddy products.
I say knock them back a few pegs, they've got the
engineers, they have the technology, they can
rebuild it
Make 'em earn thier keep instead of sitting around
cashing in on a pretty house built on a termite-
infested foundation.
Mod me down and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine...
"I know that Microsoft could not have developed Windows 95, one of the most successful software programs in history, if (the requirement) had been in effect in the early 1990s,'' Gates said."
Yes, Windows 95 was a DOS application, not an OS.
Read my sig if you like, but I'll never see yours, thanks to Discussions, Viewing, Disable sigs...
Gates claims today Microsoft's efforts to open its APIs and protocols to developers, so they can develop programs that interoperate with Windows, are enough.
Then the nine states should question Gates over the recently publicized CIFS license incident, asking him why are GPL developers excluded?
Free Software: the software by the people, of the people and for the people. Develop! Share! Enhance! Enjoy!
If MS Server products are indeed the biggest threat to high-priced Unix provider alternatives, boy oh boy, Sun must be shaking in their boots!
You know what would be even worse for guys selling Unix systems would be if there was a completely free, readily available posix-compliant operating system that would run on PC hardware! AAAAAAAAAHHHHH!!!!!!!!
god is just pretend.
What also gets me is the spineless computer industry. Just about everyone went along with MS instead of looking for other solutions. As a result, all of them have gone out of business for the most part. Corel got on board too late. Instead of building a Java version of WordPerfect, they could have been promoting alternative platforms. Computing manufacturers could have joined together to reject the MS per-processor licensing. Novell and IBM could have subsidized DRDos or OS2 in similar ways to help them get market acceptance. MS has benefited hugely from the blunders of proprietary software developers.
Fortunately, we have another few days with BillG on the stand. This time, his PR flacks can't write his talks or moderate the questions. Regardless of the result of the trial, he will take a big hit through exposure.
In the summary it mentions he tries to use the fear of reduced market competition as a reason not to hurt Microsoft, b/c then they wouldn't be able to fight AOL etc.
Essentially he's using the fear of creating a monopoly to preserve... a monopoly!
He also seems to mention that it's important we threaten the Unix market w/ hordes of cheap windows boxes (also to promote competition), yet AFAIK the Unix market has some of the healthiest competition of any industry out there.
Pure blatant FUD, I seriously hope no one in the court room fell for this...
You just have to wonder what kind of moron would come up with something like this. No wonder Windows has trailed the Unix word when it comes to stability.
I'll admit that win2k is a decent piece of software. It does what it should do, fairly cleanly and it's pretty stable too. However, this is only a recent development after Microsoft realized that they were threatened from below by the OSS movement.
Microsoft has a long history of doing its best work (IE3&4 were quite good from a user point of view) when it is in a direct competitive situation. It is clearly in our best interest that they are forced to compete.
Stop the brainwash
Fuck you troll. That was the most obnoxious thing I have ever heard.
Eat a fat goatse.
People use, and figure out how to use, what comes with their computer. What needs to change is M$'s ability to strongarm companies into putting that shit on every system they ship and penalizing them if the don't.
The problem with your scenario is that Microsoft is not giving people a choice. If you buy a computer from Dell, Compaq, etc. you pretty much have to buy Windows because that's the way MS's licensing practices work.
MS has forced all other players out of the game. Perhaps its because of their superior products, but many believe that it's their strong-arming OEMs and the abuse of monopoly power that keeps them on top. In any case, Microsoft doesn't offer a roll-your-own prodcut and since MS punishes OEMs for selling non-MS OSes, it's practically impossible for other OS companies to compete.
There's no choice, so there's no way to know what people would prefer. But certainly one could imagine that if Dell can bundle disparate hardware components, they could just as easily bundle software for their users. And I could happily buy just the products I want for my machine one at a time, the same thing I do with hardware when I need a new computer.
The hardware PC business is actually a perfect example of why your argument is fecescious. There are companies out there who sell pre-built PCs that come in one-of-three standard flavors. There are companies out there that sell custom-built PCs which allow the customer more flexibility. And ther are companies which sell just the components. All these companies co-exist and everyone who buys computers can get what they want.
Sweat
It breaks my pluginses, my precious!
Look at Everett Rogers' work on the diffusion of innovations. Basically, once an innovation has been picked up by about 25% of the available market, network effects (people talking to each other) take over and adoption becomes virtually unstoppable. Just the use of MS Office gives Windows a thoroughly entrenched position.
Can MS be dislodged? Let's say that the various *NIX factions get organized enough to make a serious run at displacing MS Windows. Rogers lists 5 conditions that are required for an innovation to be successful, and they place alternate operating systems at a disadvantage (definitions from Rogers' site, italicized comments mine):
So, anyone want to make Gates' nightmares come true?
From the executive summary:
:-)
Microsoft today is investing heavily in XML Web Services, a next-generation computing platform that holds the potential to unleash new waives of productivity gains in the economy.
Couldn't've said it better myself.
On stereophonic equipment, the monaural sound obtained through multiple channels will enhance your listening pleasure.
You do realize that it seems silly to talk about Linux when OS X has answered most of those questions already?
Attitude: The consumer n00b is your customer
Destkop usability: Aqua, Dock, etc
Installation process: Okay, it's a *bit* hairy, but mostly a lot better than Linux
THINGS change. Lots of 'normal' users choose Mac; that's why Macs are still here, 18 years after they're supposed death, and counting.
GPL Deconstructed
"...it will cripple Microsoft..."
Its supposed to you dumbass, if it allowed you to maintain your monopoly there wouldn't be much of a point in all of this now would there...
So 70% of users will use MSOffice and IE instead of 95%...get over it...
Reminds me of the music industry, they get all pissy when they can't control 95-100% of an industry...sigh
Hmm. It occured to me that maybe we are misinterpreting the fight that MS is putting up. They keep whining about the crippling effect the relatively benign settlement would bring about. They keep telling us how it'll hurt them, so badly, and please don't do this.
To me this seems like a great way to avoid a proper, harsh remedy. (Many others have suggested far better remedies that would cause much more pain and be much more appropriate; I don't need to go into those here.) If they yell it loud enough and long enough, maybe people will believe this is a harsh remedy, and apply it, because after all, MS does deserve punishment, and why not use this one, since it's pretty harsh, after all MS said so?
Food for thought.
Don't think of it as a flame---it's more like an argument that does 3d6 fire damage
Yes, please think. Really, try to start to THINK!
Get all the biased thoughts, now matter how they are biased, out of your mind, look at the situation as a whole, from an upper point of view.
In court Bill Gates said that he would have to cancel the entire Windows product palette if he has to meet the discussed requirements. (source: http://futurezone.orf.at, use fish)
Now, think about Windows not existing.
First: What would the broad mass do? What would Mr/Mrs NormalUser do? would he/she install Linux? No. They would just drop out, or(this leads to the second point):
Second: People would use another OS.
Which one?
Well, it should be easy to install, easy to configure, have a nice webbrowser, a nice email client, and some kind of word processor.
Now, RedHat or Suse Linux come to my mind, but hey, who just bought RedHat? Hmm and why does Suse get more expensive as the version number advances?
Five years later the situation would be the same as before, now with Linux in place instead of Microsoft.
And I'm afraid the GPL won't help us here, because as Microsoft is free to deliver Windows with the IE, as free is DistributorX to distribute OSBLah with Browserl33t.
Would he get sued?
Why don't we just let everybody do his/her thing? Let's co-exist, it can't be that hard.
For me, opensource should include free mind, for everybody.
How many game theorists out there are gnashing their teeth because of this blatant misstating of the "tragedy of the commons" problem?
--- Work, worry, consume, die. It's a wonderful life. -- Bill Griffith
Who cares? Microsoft will destroy themselves, given enough time. Free software is still cheaper than not free software, not to mention security.
A couple of years back you would only hear the occasional "Yay! Someone is switching to Linux" story. I hear about it 2 and 3 times a week here lately. Banks, Schools, Aunt Sally, etc... I removed win98 and replaced it with the latest Mandrake on a friend's laptop just this weekend.
Microsoft is just a phase society is going through, sorta like puberty. We'll grow out of it eventually...
"Forget about upgrading like they are currently doing and do a re-write.. making sure everything is secure and works right!"
/. rhetoric works like a charm, never crashes, supports just about every piece of hardware known to man, and, especially in the Home version which isn't IIS-capable at all, is very secure.
Umm...you haven't used Windows 2k/XP much, have you? XP, despite all the anti-MS
Fact is, most of Microsoft's notable "mistakes" regarding security are not with the OS, but with products like Outlook and IIS. Those are not the same as the OS, and 2k/XP's user-based security model is perfectly fine. There have been very few OS-level exploits of 2k/XP.
"Sure they say windows 2000 isn't on MS-DOS but really?
So we see:
Starting Windows |||||||||||||
Instead of:
Staring MS-DOS......"
Are you for real? Text = MS-DOS now? Gee...give the user something to look at while it loads the graphics/display layer and it's suddenly MS-DOS. Wow.
2k/XP are not built on DOS at all. DOS does not exist in either system. There is DOS-emulation, and a lookalike command prompt, but DOS is officialy dead.
"There's no difference.. and while the stabilility has gotten better... it's not good or near linux."
Whatever. My computer hasn't crashed with 2k/XP (I upgraded to XP after using 2k since release) more than 10 times in the last 2-3 years. Almost all of them were due to the Norton Antivirus issues with XP. (Which was Norton's fault, and they admitted it and later released a patch.) The only time I ever reboot is when installing software that requires me to reboot. The Win2K Servers I admin at work haven't crashed since install well over a year ago.
"Active Directories.. don't even talk to me about that! They are confusing and complex! Novell is so much easier to use."
Ooookay. Novell is easy to use. That's a good one.
" Goodness Bill! Just startover.. don't try to release a new O/S every year! Take 2 or 3 and let's make this thing good. We don't need to upgrade and for goodnessgracious Bill, dump the XP 'simplification'"
What you descibe sounds like XP without you "getting it." Don't like the simplification? Go back to "classic mode" skin. Yay.
I'm not gonna say my opinion on the matter for fear of getting this corrective post modden into oblivion...but your post is so obviously flawed it was is desperate need of correction.
-Jayde
What's a sig?
The reason Microsoft will not be disentrenched from the mainstream computer is precisely because that is exactly what most corporations fear the most. In their eyes, MS software has solved even basic corporate organizational problems (think Exchange). The fear of Microsoft picking up its toys and going home is exactly why you are seeing so much appeasement from their end.
At this point, everything has been standardized, IT execs only know MS products, MS services, and IBM compatible computers. They've never known a world where you chose what computer systems had a available version of the software your company needed -- there is no longer such an issue. And they love Bill for that.
Microsoft has developed a monopoly of the market precisely because it saw the needs of the big businesses and filled them as quickly as possible, and worried about quality later. It's unfortunate, but that's how the cookie crumbles.
Has Microsoft really innovated? Of course not -- but that's beside point. The point is they took lots of great ideas, appropriated them, made it illegal for anyone else to appropriate them, and then packed all the most useful stuff into five or six packages which can all be ordered from one place. Game over.
Unfortunately even the U.S. Government is seeing the failure of easy controls on the software market. By the time you put one control in place, the market has already changed. Frankly, if the breakup option is gone, then there is no remedy that will stop Microsoft from continuing to terrorize the software industry.
-- We live in a world where lemonade is artificial and soap has real lemon.
OS that runs on real people's computers
So, I take it, Macintosh users are fake? They're made of cardboard or something? Or maybe they're just extremely productive mannequins (sp?).
wannabe-crays that cost more than a new car
Erm, what kind of car do you drive? An '87 Camry? I find it hard to believe that one can be educated enough (though with trolls, who knows) to post here and can't find a job that pays enough for a car that doesn't suck.
I will now redundantly add my name to the end of my post. You know, in case you forgot me or something.
Gates nows you can add an API to a browser, and he's saying otherwise. He's a born liar. He says the Windows OS will be set back 10 years by a negative ruling... would that make it 17 years behind Mac OS X?
This is BG's job. Dealing with his companies crap. If he was on the stand because he witnessed a hit-and-run accident, then he'd be losing money. But right now, he's doing what he's paid to do, representing the needs and interests of his company.
Evil needs. But needs none-the-less.
Sweat
It breaks my pluginses, my precious!
You gotta admire this guy's cojones, though. He argues that because of the states' remedy, "competition would be reduced not only in operating systems, but in other key product categories where Microsoft is the strongest challenger to incumbent leaders." Specifically, he mentions online services (AOL), handhelds (Palm), and game consoles (Sony).
:-)
In other words, Microsoft will no longer be able to use its monopoly position in the OS market to heavy-handedly bash its way into new markets. And he spins it like this is a bad thing! Simply amazing.
Come to think of it, what does he mean by "competition would be reduced not only in operating systems"? Is he arguing that the states' remedy will actually increase Microsoft's stranglehold on the OS market? If so, then maybe we need some more severe remedies.
On stereophonic equipment, the monaural sound obtained through multiple channels will enhance your listening pleasure.
She should leave you like the plague, kids and all, instead of putting up with your political GNU > MS bullcrap.
I say leave the Microsoft company alone, they will destroy themselves soon enough. I say we throw Bill G, Steve B. and all the other exec's who actually broke the law in the slammer. Let Bill be Bubba's bitch for 20 to life!!!
yor a literit
Come on Bill, you throw out a wild claim like that that has no foundation in reality and it makes all of your other claims suspect.
10 years ago, Windows 3.0 was out. The copy of Windows NT I got 5 years ago allowed me the option not to install IE and it ran fine without it.
He's sounding like a spoiled whining brat.
I guess he just can't tell the truth like "Yes, it'd be possible, but we'd have to spend about x amount of time and y amount of dollars to separate the page rendering code into a callable API to allow alternative browsers to link into it.
I *do* see a benefit to having the OS render HTML in a window of an app I build, and you can do this quite easily with IE currently. Removing it would break apps that expect this to be there. That wouldn't be a good thing. Why doesn't he explain that point instead of throwing a temper tantrum like "If you make us do it, we'll never release another version of Windows ever again, nyah, nyah, how do you like that?"
In linux you can go and select EACH AND EVERY package you want or not. Nothing is forced on you. Dont want Konqueror? Fine, dont install it.
I dont know about mac cause i dont have one.
This
I'd stand outside and sell these.
(Not in any way affiliated with the seller; I just love the shirt)
~jeff
They are locking themselves into their corner. Go back and look at how Unix and MSDOS started. Unix started on expensive time sharing machines, where self protection and security were necessary, multiuser and multitasking from the start. It also ran on different machines. MSDOS started on dinky machines where there was no concept of sharing the machine, thus no security, no multitasking. The hardware grew up to match Unix, whereas MSDOS never grew up to match the hardware.
.NET is a vague buzzword with no meat yet, and not many people fooled so far.
:-)
In spite of all the cruft they've grafted on Windows doesn't, and never will, have the flexibility of Unix.
Plus they have branded themselves so much as the the king of the desktop that they have no other image.
And plus they have branded themselves as terrible partners. Look at all the licensing suqablles, not just with auditing schools, but also doubling the licensing costs for business, other audit raids, and so on.
Do you remember several years ago when the mobile phone companies banded together (Symbian?) precisely because they did not want M$ in their sandbox? Because they were afraid of M$ not playing nice.
Same thing with TV set top box manufacturers. M$ spent a fortune just to get them to promise to look at their code, I think only one bit, and they later dropped it because M$ was so late.
X-box disappoints. Pocket PC sales disappoint. They can't get out of their corner.
In other words, M$ have painted themselves into a corner of their own choosing. If they were smart, they'd use the antitrust trial as an excuse to totally revamp their business, and go forward. But they are so arrogant and greedy and shortsighted that they are just using it to apply ever more coats of paint around their corner.
At some point, I bet in 5 years or so, they will find themselves locked out of every market except the desktop, which will not only have become a amrginless commodity, but will also have been invaded successfully by Linux.
That's how I think they will die. Time will tell
Infuriate left and right
linux is logical... the problem is most people are not.
I read through all of Bill Gate$'$ testimony. Am I the only person here who sees M$ trying to become Nazi Germany? ^_-
However I will take offense at you comment about desktop usability. This complaint about Linux is a myth. Typically, when people say this what they really mean is "More like windows". Using Windows as the de-facto standard for desktop usability is not only unfair, it destroys the (small amount of IMHO) credibility that usability tests have in the first place.
Taking people from Windows and seeing how they feel with Linux proves nothing. Of course they're more comfortable with Windows. They've allready been using it. If you want to do this right, have people who know nothing about computers, and have never used one sit down and figure it out. You won't get the same results I promise you that.
I won't go off on it, but you also need to remember that there are a large number of desktops for Linux, which are tested, KDE? Gnome? Some of the older desktops? It matters. And someone who wants to prove that Windows is has a easier desktop could easily do so, just by their choice of Linux desktop- to compare to.
I'm the big fish in the big pond bitch.
- Bill Gates commenting on the trial
Oh yeah...here comes windows 3.1 again! I definitely see how the states' demands will send xp packing and have all microserfs back to 16-bit solitaire. :-)
yes, exactly... I personally think that OpenBeOS looks promising in this area
This is not the greatest sig in the world, no. This is just a tribute.
It seems to me that if the States that are suing MS were NOT backed up by another greedy big corporation like AOL, Sun, etc. the Government would have had a much better chance at getting MS than it is now.
If the public can bring a class action suit against MS and it is backed by the States as it is now, MS would not be able to stand the trial as it is doing now.
The fact that AOL, Sun, Netscape, etc. have gotten so involved in this case, it makes the case questionable.
Karma stuck at 50? Add 2-5 inches.. err.. 2-5x Karmas Count to your pen1es.. err.. Karma all naturally and private
I wonder how much smoke his hand gave off when it touched the Bible :D
I think that everything should be installed. But the first time I use my brand-spanking new computer or click on a new file type, I have to select one: IE, Navigator, Opera, or Mozilla. But if this application screws me around, I should be able to right-click or cmd-click and select a new default application that's already installed. This even means when a page doesn't display right in IE (or Netscape or Opera for HTML --or Photoshop or Paint .jpgs or .gifs), I can quickly select another application.
Appearing in person for the first time [second time actually, first time he behaved like an ass which probably has a lot to do with the fix he's in now] in Microsoft's four-year antitrust battle, Gates warned U.S. District Judge Colleen Kollar-Kotelly of dire consequences["If you don't play according to my rules, I'll take my ball and go straight home"] if the judge accepts suggestions that include a version of Windows that can be customized by computer makers and rival software designers [Which, heaven forbid, would lead to some real innovation, not just that dictated from Redmond] .
Gates said the nine states threaten Windows' existence as a stable platform[Watch out for perjury, Bill] that allows a wide range of computer hardware [PC's, soon to be phased out Alpha's and the odd multi processor system] and software [Mostly theirs] to work together, and would deny Microsoft the incentive[Huge profits only realized by monopolies and other criminal activity] to make continual improvements [Rather than make it secure, stable and open].
"The (states' ideas) would undermine all three elements of Microsoft's success [Getting rich, richer, richer still], causing great damage to Microsoft [Excluding the damage they do to others and themselves], other companies [Partners yet to be screwed] that build upon Microsoft's products [Which used to be made by other companies now out of business or holding less than 5% of the market], and the businesses and consumers that use PC software," the world's richest man [who gained much of his wealth from predatory and monoplistic practices] said in his 155-page written submission [Doubtlessly not composed in Word Perfect].
Some legal analysts have said Gates' failure to take the stand at the original trial damaged the company's defense [No worse than heavy sighes, evasive answers, and contemptful attitued toward the court]. The Justice Department [Soon to be part of the Microsoft empire] (news - web sites), instead, showed unflattering portions of a videotaped pretrial interview in which Gates appeared uncooperative and quibbled over the meaning of common words.
The nine states still pursuing the case have refused to sign on to a proposed settlement of the case reached between Microsoft and the Justice Department in November[Written by Microsoft, agreed to by DoJ].
Appearing as Microsoft's seventh witness at the remedy hearings, Gates credited Microsoft's Windows monopoly with having helped to unite a fragmented personal computer industry[I.e. destroy all the fragments and the companies which were developing them]. "By reducing Windows to some undefined 'core operating system' the (states) would turn back the clock on Windows development by about ten years and effectively freeze it there," he said [Which would actually make it more accessable to consumers and business customers who don't want all the bundled and confusing bloat, thus pulling it out of the dark ages]
Gates said the company's new .NET strategy for Internet-based services [And to kill Java and absorb 95% of that market, too, locking every user into running Windows proprietary software]
would spark a new round of opportunities in the computer industry [Opportunities go bankrupt, to deal with more bugs, to be vulnerable to more security flaws, to spend huge bucks retraining or recruiting new staff, ...],
contradicting some witnesses for the states who feared Microsoft would
use its Windows monopoly to dominate this emerging technology [Which they would].
The demands of the non-settling states are technically impossible, Gates said [And amazingly his nose didn't grow an inch or three]. And he dismissed the idea that Windows' could function properly with add-on features, known as "middleware," that were easily added and removed [i.e. we trust no-one but ourselves and we're basically barely any good at it ourselves].
"There is no clear dividing line between where a particular block of "middleware" ends and the rest of the operating system begins," Gates said[Particularly because Microsoft violates their own API's whenever it will gain them an advantage, hence dirty software].
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
If I had moderator points, I'd mod you down for following your message with a manipulative statement aimed at getting yourself modded up. But I don't, so I'll just bitch: c'mon moderators, don't let people trick you with this silly ploy. Every time someone says "Oh, I'm so controversial! My opinions are so unique and unlike those of the masses! I just know those nasty moderators will mod me down!" they get sent right to the top of the page.
At least you're posting as AC, but still.
Netscape, Oracle, Intel, Sun, and Everyone but Microsoft.
cpeterso
We had a server failure today....was it running Windows? No.
It was an SG box running Irix 6.5 -- the last time it was powered down was 90 days ago, when it was legally required to be because of electrical maintenance.
The power supply decided it was going to pack in, fair enough, it's a few years old now, running about 10 SCSI disks off it; in the same 90 days, we've had people with so many problems with their NT systems; funnily enough, the NT4 box on my desk has been perfect.
So whatever happens, nobody comes out particularly shining. Just something to bear in mind when you want to bash either MS, or SGI, or Sun, or maybe even a quick dig at RedHat!
parksie.
Would that be a 2-piece or 3-piece suit? Stripes too?
"He (Gates) told the US district judge, Colleen Kollar- Kotelly, that the remedies demanded by nine states would set Microsoft's Windows operating system back 10 years."
Good. Then they can try to get it right this time.
Phew, finally managed to post this sodding thing.....
We had a server failure today....was it running Windows? No...
It was an SG box running Irix 6.5 -- the last time it was powered down was 90 days ago, when it was legally required to be because of electrical maintenance.
The power supply decided it was going to pack in, fair enough, it's a few years old now, running about 10 SCSI disks off it; in the same 90 days, we've had people with so many problems with their NT systems; funnily enough, the NT4 box on my desk has been perfect.
So whatever happens, nobody comes out particularly shining. Just something to bear in mind when you want to bash either MS, or SGI, or Sun, or maybe even a quick dig at RedHat!
parksie.
is not an indication of an monopoly that I do not know what is
Yes, I am probably biased since I started off with Windows. I have never been able to put people who have not used any OS in front of Linux and told them to use it :(
Another problem is that since 'almost' every computer manufacturer, software house etc assumes Windows, compatibility is a moving target (i.e. compatibility with people's documents etc etc)
Do you agree with my other points though?
Either do as the states ask or shutdown Microsoft.
Now I know what your thinking... that is a fucking stupid statement, but think about it. If Microsoft does shutdown, many of the dists of Linux and Sun Staroffice produce would start to dominate, which IMO rates pretty close to 2nd for desktop productivity.
Yes, but fixing computers (not hardware, but software-wise) is much, MUCH more complex and difficult than fixing cars. Ergo, experts with computers have to be much more intelligent than experts in cars. It's usually easier to find and fix oil leak than memory leak.
Ok...some other field then. Medicine? I don't think a lot of doctors are very computer literate...but they're smart!
Kind of like they have to with different versions of Windows today, right?
Customers ARE faced with the prospect of finding and distinguishing among, for example, Windows 95, Windows 98 and Windows 2000 (and for Windows NT 3.51 and Windows 4.0 and Windows XP and Windows Me), each with varying capabilities reflecting the underlying capabilities of the version of Windows to which they were written. Software innovation HAS SLOWED as ISVs devote greater resources to (i) duplicating functionality that Windows might otherwise provide and (ii) testing many variations of their products to reflect variations in the underlying operating systems.
What a jerk! He makes money off of doing what he says is bad for the industry! Doesn't anyone recognize this hypocrisy?
Education is the silver bullet.
Is it just me, or is Melinda Gates a pretty hot broad? (exhibit A, exhibit B, exhibit C) Maybe I'm just horny...
python -c "x='python -c %sx=%s; print x%%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))%s'; print x%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))"
I still see people wearing Hypercolor, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea.
And it's "their" supposed death.
...of the executive summary states it all.
Microsoft intends to comply wherever it is both clear and feasable. Translation: Microsoft will claim the language is unclear at every possible instance and will claim that any exact language is impossible to comply with.
How will the courts respond to that?
Can the courts order the incorporation of 3rd party methods of making Windows "lite"? Can they order a 3rd party to rebuild the Windows platform and force Microsoft to accept and support it? Clearly Microsft is unwilling to do this job themselves, so can the courts order someone else to do it for them and require Microsft to accept the results of that work?
If Microsoft will claim all language used to be either too vague or impossible, will the courts find Microsoft in contempt?
So far, I haven't heard any "or else" alternatives. So far it's that Microsoft is expected to comply, but what happens when Microsoft says "I can't do it and you can't make me"?
My name is William H. Gates III. I am become vile. Is it nothing to
you, all people, and behold from heaven. Mine eye runneth down with
water, because the comforter that should relieve my soul is far from
me: my children are gone into captivity because of affliction, and
because of missing APIs. OEMs would have no rest.
The NSPR would allow competitors to license and support old operating
system products within six months of the iniquity of the operating
system. The Windows Help took advantage of the city.
A lot can happen over ten years for Microsoft to develop a version of
UNIX and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this
generation. And they came to pass, and to rise from the ten or more
variations, with entire blocks of interdependent code removed
altogether. Nor could we effectively diagnose and fix problems that
may be needed in Windows, Microsoft's heavy investment in XML Web
services, working through the cities and villages, teaching, and
journeying toward Jerusalem. And when Herod saw Jesus, he cried and
said, Ye know not a true industry Standard-Setting Body.
And, behold, I bring you unto the Gentiles, and the rest of the tens
of thousands of companies. We know that Microsoft would be more
tolerable for Tyre and Sidon, which have been degraded (and they would
modify themselves and distribute unto the people stood beholding. And
the Pharisees began to utilize the same HTML component.
And it came to Nazareth, where he entereth in. And ye shall not be
found, quality will inevitably decline and interoperability will
suffer. And all wept, and bewailed her: but he that is less prone to
a film processor; (vii) obtain updates, such as AOL Time Warner. It
does not appear to be baptized of him, and let not them that kill the
body, what ye shall put on.
Microsoft distributed nearly 500,000 copies of it depart out; and let
it forth to husbandmen, and went aside privately into a certain
creditor which had the potential to unleash new waves of productivity
gains and empowering users.
Two of Mr. Gates's arguments make my ears perk up:
While there is an element of truth in the first argument, the second is, quite simply, a load of bollocks. The advent of the web has brought us a long way. We now have commodity protocols (e.g., HTTP), document formats (HTML and, to a certain extent, PDF and PS).
Basically, we have transcended the need for a unifying platform, because these commodities now allow us to share information.
M$ talks about increasing interoperability, but all their efforts are aimed at controlling it (and stamping it out when it doesn't serve their cause--a good example of which is that every service pack breaks Samba in at least one way).
If M$ were to lose its monopoly position, and consequently, the influence it currently enjoys, not only is there plenty of stuff (e.g., OpenOffice) out there to fill the void, but there would be sufficient incentive to create more such stuff.
Benefits to owning an '87 Camry:
1. Low cost (initial and maintenance)
2. Good mileage (25-35 mpg average)
3. Good for hotboxing
4. If it gets stolen, no problem finding another one and stealing it
I have tested your theory with computer illiterates and you're wrong. Windows is easier to use. Here are the problems that have not been solved by Linux in the "ease of use" area.
Blah... I could add another hundred points to this list but frankly I don't feel like going on anymore.
For all of those who are going to come up with a point-by-point put down of my bullet points, I've already prepared my response below.
This response is based on the premise that someone's going to say what a bunch of wimps Windows users are and that if they would just step up to the plate and learn how to use a computer that everyone would be better off.
My response: So I guess the average person should write their own Operating System in a programming language that they invented and compiled on a compiler that they designed. And all of this software is handled via computer parts they built from the raw materials that they dug up out of the Earth themsevles? Right? Because anything less would just make them a "Windoze Luser".
Do you have a house? Did you go chop down the trees to get the lumber you needed to build it? It's the same argument you are trying to make against people who like Windows because it's simple. They don't have the same level of interest in computers as you do. They just want the crap to work. Why is it so hard for you Linux zealots to understand this basic concept? You are all the biggest bunch of whining hypocrits I've ever seen. You use devices every day that are simple to use and no one chastises you for it. Microwaves, Television, Automobiles,
Why not leave it up to the individual to decide how much they want to get "into" something.
Windows has it's place in this world because like it or not it's easier to use than anything else. And until someone else comes out with something that's just as easy or easier (and Linux isn't!), then Windows is going to continue to have it's place.
Linux zealots want to bash someone for chosing Windows well I could just as easy bash them for taking the easy way out by using Linux. What kind of wimp uses an Operating System that someone else wrote? What kind of wimp uses a compter that someone else built? "I built my own computer". Bullcrap. You bought a bunch of parts that someone else built and you fit them together. Any 5 or 6 year old kid familiar with Legos could be taught to "build a computer".
Judge not lest ye be judged yourself.
Let me guess... after all this you're just going to say "I don't get it." Like you Linux zealots have some kind of supreme intellect that no other man can possibly understand your divine way of thinking. I do "get it". And so do most other people. The problem with Linux zealots is they fancy themselves as people of higher intelligence. But all they do is side-talk, back-talk, cross-talk and attempt to wow people with technical jargon and confusing looking screens to the point where most people who could give a crap less will just conceed that these Linux zealots know more than they do. And then this Linux zealot puffs out his chest and walks away like he's won some kind of battle of wits. Psh... hardly. The only thing they know is how to shovel one pile of dung on top of another.
I'm curious.
1) What Distro, if any?
2) Gui? If so, which WM / Desktop env?
3) Anything else unique?
-- Note: If you don't agree with me, don't bother replying. I won't read it.
If Microsoft continues to control the software industry, and is allowed to continue on their "our fair share is 100% of everything" path of destruction, there won't be enough jobs in the industry to continue with the growth that we've seen in the past 10 years.
When Microsoft has "full reign", they will buy as many politicians as it takes to make Open Source and Linux a "European Thing" (and then it will end up being a "wasn't that something like Amiga?" thing), and work with the entertainment industry to make everybody's computer system a micro-payment paradise of pay to hear/pay to see media content. AOL will fall, as Microsoft will just add a message box that says something like "AOL software is incompatible with your system, please visit our MSN site".
What the Judge needs to think about is that there isn't one company in the world that would create a consumer level operating system right now, as they would have absolutely no hope of ever being able to sell it. Apple doesn't count here, as they are "blessed" by Microsoft.
This whole mess just makes me ill.
"To make a mistake is only human; to persist in a mistake is idiotic." Cicero
I know this is offtopic but why was Microsoft's OEM licensing controls regarding the bootloader never brought up in any of this antitrust business. Microsofts OEM licensing agreements are considered "trade secrets" and thus we can never know the exact wording of them but the basic gist of it is that any computer with windows installed on it cannot have any other os installed and be set to dual boot from the factory. If it weren't for this any computer manufacturer could add a linux partition to their windows machines for basically nothing, it would add value and give linux a foot in the door of the consumer market. I would love to hear Microsoft explain why they do this. To me it is akin to old navy selling me a shirt but saying I cant have clothes from any other manufacturer in my closet. Any other company would be laughed out of business, but if your a monopoly people don't have much choice but to comply now do they?
Don't believe me? What happens to the government if Microsoft goes out of power. Chaos. Creation. Open Source dominance.
And then how will the government force there to be software like Outlook that pokes deliberate security holes in programs so that the Feds can snoop on your computer?
Is the government going to bribe U of Washington to put security holes in Pine? Ha! Right about the time George Lucas packages Ewok Meat for Episode 2.
/^[A-Z0-9._%+-]+@[A-Z0-9.-]+\.[A-Z]{2,4}$/i
You're right, the AC's post is flamebait.
He does have a point, however.
Allow me to edit his comment so the underlying point is more apparent....
Sort of, but we were thinking of an OS that runs on most people's computers, not just overpriced macs.
That better?
OEMs, OEMs. Forced to bundle MS apps. Not gleffler, but OEMs.
That's what it's about.
I take it you know what an OEM is.
Yours Sincerely, Michael.
They won't. They're too permanently ingrained into the business world, not to mention consumer culture, to ever be removed at this point.
Windows doesn't need to be more functional than UNIX or its derivatives, it just needs to work for the customers to whom it is intended. More often than not the "flexibility" that I hear most people talk about translates into being able to run a plethora of daemons on one's home machine, to show off just how "powerful" one's operating system is. I'm not trying to be insulting here, but flexibility is pretty objective. I'd personally call being able to pick up a CD with an operating system, and being able to install it -knowing- that there's an over 95% chance that it'll work on that system regardless of its hardware, flexibility.
The people have branded them the kings of the desktop, not themselves. Most people "brand" Linux as being the king of the desktop, despite having a lesser share. Microsoft supports an image that it was given by public support -- Windows = desktop. In the end, the "king" of the desktop is the one that consumers choose.
Terrible partners? Since when were they anyone's partners? They're a business, and they're looking out -for- their business. You may not like how they operate, but aside from the exceptions which have been proven in court, much of their business model is legal. And they're not close to dying because of it, either.
X-Box disappoints? Pocket PC sales disappoint? Try backing that up with some figures, too. And some proof.
Sure, they've painted themselves into a corner. A very profitable, successful corner that can't easily be thwarted, by the government or anyone else for that matter. The fact that they are -not- using the trial as an opportunity to alter their business strategy -proves- that their business strategy is sound -- otherwise they would have chosen your so-called, "smart" solution. And yes, they're greedy. No big surprise there.
Will they be gone in five years? Hell no. Be realistic. Every other platform out there for the all important desktop market is still playing the catch-up game in the important categories; usability, hardware support, you name it. They're behind. I enjoy using most of the Linux distributions I've tried, but I think it's safe to say that, even 15 years later, there's -very- little chance that any Linux distribution is going to supplant Windows in -any- market. If you hadn't looked at the Netcraft figures lately, the amount of Windows-based webservers is on the rise. I don't know about the desktop, but it's not increasing at a rate that's going to sweep Microsoft out any time soon. The sad truth is that Linux hasn't successfully invaded any target market yet. Embedded applications? Nope. Consoles? The Indrema didn't even come out. Servers? There's plenty of Linux servers, but they still aren't beating Microsoft in the business sector yet. And the desktop? I think we both know the answer to that. Microsoft isn't going to die any time soon, and to think anything else is pointlessly idealistic.
Not familiar with the phones part, but since you didn't back it up with much information I'll assume it isn't too important.
UNIX was on PC's and the desktop before MMU's were there. My first Unix was some IBM thing that ran on a PC-XT. MMU? Hah!
It worked just fine.
People overrate memory mapping for single user machines. It is a very good idea, but it simply is not necessary for a multitasking system.
The only good weather is bad weather.
Bill Gates is just doing what he has to do. He's got a great big company, that's pulling in tons of money. Who, in his position, would turn around and say, "Gee, I'm sorry I was naughty. Here's all my cash, and I'll help you to stop me from doing it again." He's fighting to preserve the company that he built from nothing to become the most successful company in human history. He might not have always been fair, but it's pretty obvious that giving up without a fight isn't in his nature.
I'm not usually an apologist for Microsoft. I hate their cr*ppy OS, and their generally sh*tty products. I use their products at work, but I also argue strenuously for using alternatives. At home, I won't touch their stuff. But, even so, some of these posts, with their exaggerated outrage, are a bit sickening.
After all, is a headline of, "Bill Gates Defends Microsoft," so surprising?
Ever used one of those HP bundles with the special internet keyboard, the special edition of Windows 98 with the special drivers for the special CD writer? (short summary: they're awful) And a little jiggering around will teach you that you can never really de-HP the machine.
Would it be a good thing if more OEM's did things like this? We could all have special pre-installed Bonzi buddies! Worked into the OS so they're impossible to remove for most people! YAY!
Perhaps MS is doing consumers a service by preventing more OEM tinkering.
Also, would MS charge less or more for a machine without Internet Explorer? More of course - MS wants people to have it.
Note that I don't actually disagree with you - MS does screw people into one choice. I'm just saying that there's a good chance other companies would screw Average Joe just as bad as MS does.
.
Let's not stir that bag of worms...
let's call him Bill innocent Gates. BiG sounds better than BG, isn't it?
Ahem, of course on very, very rare circumstance - like when a meteorite lands on earth, and the ecosystem crumbles - small might be beautiful too. When did that happen the last time - Dinos against mammals? And the mammals won because their nervuous system was twenty times faster due to improved peripheral nerves and their need for food less because of their high, fixed body temperature.
So after all coding free software creates smaller, faster adopting units. In case his wonderful ecosystem breaks down.
Just in case
Your car doesn't even turn over when you go to start it this morning. Not to worry, though - any old idiot can fix the problem, because cars are so simple, right? Yeah, sure, fuck off you lackwitted piece of egotistical shit.
Is this to be believed? Microsoft cannot tell what their own code does? That explains a lot, but is it really the truth? Somehow I don't think so.
Edith Keeler Must Die
Gates: Don't do this to us! The whole world depends on us. If you hurt us, you'll just hurt yourself.
Unfortunately, that's not the issue here. Microsoft broke the law, and there must be a punishment. If that hurts everyone, so be it. Sometimes doing the right thing isn't easy; in this case it will most likely be extremely painful.
You're proud of it?
Corporations, which the Supreme Court has essentially declared to be legal entities with rights and everything, act like spoiled children because they have one and only one purpose: make money to the exclusion of all else.
What's the best way to make money to the exclusion of all else? Become a monopoly and abuse it once you have it!
If antitrust remedies don't include really stiff penalties, then every corporation out there is going to be very predictable and attempt to become a monopoly -- and once they do, they'll be even more predictable and abuse that monopoly. And why not? Abusing a monopoly doesn't cost them anything. The worst thing that happens is that they lose their monopoly status, right? But until that time, they bring in the cash hand over fist because of their abuse of their monopoly position.
Abuse of a monopoly should be so horrendously expensive that corporations don't even think of doing it, because the consequences would be too devastating. Much better to play nice and profit reasonably from it than to play dirty and get smacked down hard for it, right? But with the rules as they are right now, corporations have every incentive to abuse their monopoly for as long as they're able, because doing so doesn't cost them anything.
And that's gotta change.
I mean, if individuals are punished under the law for breaking the law, then why aren't corporations? Why are corporations so special, anyway, that we have elevated them to the status of godhood?
Use 'slashdot stuff' in the subject line in any email you send me if you want to get past the spam filter.
I'll tell you why she doesn't leave him. Cuz she is a single mom and as far as she is concerned he is just a meal ticket. Computer geeks serve as excellent human wallets for single moms cuz most geeks make a lot of money and don't get alot of sex, so they act as good ATM machines for single moms to leech off of. You really need to be careful. In the state of Washington and a few others, if you date a single mom and the child forms a "psycological bond" with you, you can be forced to pay child support even if it is not your kid. And even if you don't live in a state with laws like that, think about it this way: You already know her stance on abortion. If she gets knocked up with you what do you think she is going to do? She is going to take your ass to court and you will be paying child support for the next 18 fucking years.
you mean like Mac OS X?
Exactly. Considering that it's only in it's "version 1" (kinda), think of where this OS can go - especially with support from the community (at the kernal level), with the commercial support from Apple (dev API's, GUI, etc.).
There is no longer anything that can be done with computers that is nontrivial and clearly legal. -- Paul Phillips
I mean, if they can't bundle all sorts of crap, and can't force people to use the OS, i'm guessing microsoft might actually have to *GASP* make the OS BETTER!
OH MY GOD! FAIR COMPETITION! THAT WILL CRIPPLE US!
:wq
Rest assured, now it seems that Microsoft is killing itself, like the RIAA, by making enemies out of its customers. I wonder if they are going to change in the near future, especially with .net, which even offers compatibility with Mono. The .net API doesn't look bad, and from what I can see they are making it open. At first sight, it looks to me they are trying to bring about a new era to the world of computing, and while they are the developers, they will have the lead in implementation, which is probably what they are betting on. But by keeping the API open they are giving others some fair competition. They need other people to join their bandwagon lest it stops dead. But everybody has to be cautious about APIs that they keep for themselves.
What time is it/will be over there? Check with my iPhone app!
X-box disappoints. Pocket PC sales disappoint. They can't get out of their corner. .NET is a vague buzzword with no meat yet, and not many people fooled so far.
.NET, but many developers do. Many non-religious, objective professionals claim that it's an incredible development platform (and some say that it's too bad that MS was the creator of it). Let's not forget many of the Fortune 100, Government, and small-medium sized business that have chosen .NET as their platform of choice for future projects.
The Xbox is awesome. True, the PS2 has a far superior game library, but it's also in it's second generation and second year of release, and wasn't released during a very poor point in the world economy.
Pocket PC sales do not dissapoint. The last time I checked, they've been giving Palm a run for their money. Palm has been very static, while PocketPC 2002 is actually very slick.
YOU may not understand
There is no longer anything that can be done with computers that is nontrivial and clearly legal. -- Paul Phillips
I'm an honorable businessman. I got dis business down in chicago. Wit dis money I make, I'm creating a loddof, watcha call it, jobs... yea, jobs. On toppadat, I also pay the state and da feds.. sometimes underda table. So in oder words, I'm generating a lot of revenue for da country. Wit dis Ness (or here for an update) mess, you got dis business set back some fiddy years. Do you really want to set us back 50 years and undo all the progress we made? The eco-system that we have created with our blood and sweat? People are working together day and night and the supply chain management is flawless. We have efficiency you don't see in any other industry. We also have the best dedication among any group of organized labor. They are ready to give their life for the good of da business. You want to dismantle us just because we rob banks and supply the alcohol that the consumer wants? Since when is it a crime to supply what the people want. This is what the consumer are telling us -- 'give us more alcohol'. The consumer also wants some redistribution of wealth so we bundled that together as well. We rob banks and give the money to the working class (as long as they're working for us.) People also wants protection. Why have the police as a seperate entity just to provide the protection. We bundled that together too -- just pay us the protection fee. So you see yo 'onor. We are just putting together dis package that the consumer wants. We bundle all these features together and give the consumer what they want. With everyting integreted into one big package, they just have one, how shall i say this, neighborhood representative to talk to for all their daily needs: booze, protection, etc..If you dismantle us we won't be able to function like one large organized business. It will take us years to rebuild this empire. Many more people will have to be killed in the process. Whadabbout all the 'little' people that drive trucks everynight to bring you the booze. In short, yor 'onor, we are one big happy family. We bring people what they want in one big package. It took us years to build this empire. Besides I just gave some money and R&D promise to provide for compition to Steve Jobs' Apple. Don't break us up.
You dissappoint me fredo. (oops.. wrong movie) you dissappoint me yor 'onor.
Sincerely,
Bill Gates
Seriously tho, the similarities about the business/empire and how they are evolving are scary. Bill Gates must be the digital gangsta'. He needs to get a wireless divice shooting bits and bytes all over the place disrupting standard protocol ala Kerberos. let's call it the 'tommy PDA'. wouldn't it be funny when you start hearing .. 'in the news.. Bill Gates is wanted by the feds for questioning for the drive by rebooting.'
who were rumrunners on the Great Lakes - arguing against repealing prohibition.
...
after all, it hurt the business
-
--- Will in Seattle - What are you doing to fight the War?
Nobody forces you to install anything that is bundled with a distro.
If you sell computers with preinstalled Linux, nobody will tell you what to install on there. You can make your own distro and bundle whatever you like in there.
And Linus will not punish oyu if you do not put Mozilla on every Linix computer.
As i said in the title this should be obvious to you, but since you are an MS troll you may need some explaining.
As far as apple is concerned there are two differences:
- apple is not a monopoly
- apple make their own hardware, and do their own preinstalls, so they are not using their market power to control other companies. They only "control" themselves.
Am I the only one to see Bill Gates like Ariel Sharon, trying to build Microsoft like Zionist Israel ??
"the only ones hurt in this scenario is Microsoft"
Take a look at that from Bill "Blinders ON" Gates perspective.
This
True, Linux distros come with a lot of other software, but it's a collection of products from OTHER Companies/groups. Contrast to windows, EVERYTHING IS MICROSOFT! Under Windows install, I do not have the option to deselect Internet Explorer, Outlook Express or Windows Media Player, but on Linux I can really choose what i want and don't want.
$cat
Nothing to see here, move along...
ah! now i know why Office puts all that crap faux html into its "html" documents:
In an echo of previous trials, where old emails were found which directly contradicted Microsoft employees' testimony, antitrust expert Steve Kuney introduced an internal memo.
In it, Mr Gates told employees to stop working on ways of making sure that documents from the Office suite - Microsoft's "killer app" - were compatible with rival web browsers.
"Allowing Office to be rendered very well by other people's browers is one of the most destructive things we can do to the company," he wrote.
- Entertaining Bits from the Ancient Kernel Tree
Bill G has repeatedly stated how much the damned sky would fall if windows became open source. Well, i say fine, i want to see the sky fall. I challenge bill (damn, i hope some M$ employee reads /.) to go thru with the nine states suggestions. In fact, GO FARTHER. M$ is in a profit margin (it has to be). Completely pull of the market. If not disband M$, stop developing all M$ products. Gates view is that if M$ is forced to change, the comsumer is hurt. Fine, PROVE IT. In five years, if im hurting (bless you linus...) then youll be able to say "HAHAH - told you so!"
This
An excerpt form page 149:
"As pertains to elements of collaboration with competitors on aspects of our critical intellectual property and future ability to innovate in an effective manner as described in section, 3d, I really doubt you're reading this anymore. As such is endangered by the dissenting states remedies in a clear attack on the healthy ecosystem of Judge Jackson being a moron, and furthermore how you aren't paying attention linux sux0rs healthy innovation competition intellectual property not make windows anymore... I'm just going to start typing "booger". Booger booger booger booger booger..."
The enemies of Democracy are
BBC News 24 have an interview with Brad Smith, Microsoft's "Chief Councel" running on their "World Business Report" programme. It's quite amusing - some quotes:
... After all, there's probably nobody on the planet that knows more about the PC industry than Bill Gates..."
... Bill Gates said that it was "Technologically impossible" - I find that "interesting" given that this is one of the biggest software companies in the world, and he's known for his software "genius".
... the States' proposal would be impossible to comply with ... legal standard makes no sense, doesn't work in the real world ...
:)
Brad:
BBC girl: It was interesting to see that on the issue of "middleware"
short pause...
Brad:
Worth watching, he manages to keep a straight face dispite what he's saying
For those that can get this quality channel, it's next on BBC news 24 at 01:30 GMT.
They'd be marketing Microsoft WindowsFU.
What about cost? If the competition, in this case Linux, significantly undercuts the cost of MS and shows at least parity in all the other items you've listed, don't you think that would cause some incredible movement?
Don't forget the value of the allmighty dollar. It's what got Microsoft where they are today, and it's why they're so scared of the GPL.
"I may not have morals, but I have standards."
Wow. Leykis 101 is making it all the way to slashdot.
Reading this makes me kind of ill...i keep substituting Attila the Hun or Alexander the Great's names for Gates'.
"But, he united a fragmented empire!"
I think it's a BS term.
"There is no clear dividing line between where a particular block of "middleware" ends and the rest of the operating system begins," Gates said.
Explorer's binding to the operating system was a mistake. Binding WMP8 to the operating system was a bigger mistake. Hell, I think binding any programs to the operating system is a mistake. Just because if it fails, the OS goes down with it. I believe the operating system begins where the human sees nothing. "Software" comes in for human interaction. Explorer, KDE Gnome, Litestep, Winamp, WMP8, all software. Releasing a modular version of Windows might actually be a good thing. That means that programs wouldn't be so much "tied" into the system like WMP8 and Explorer, and might actually *fix* the blue screen problem, instead of crippling the system like BG cries about.
Why yes I am paranoid! Thanks for asking!
netscape had crased my Solaris box(Sun Sparc). Should the OS crash? No. Does it? Yes. Sometimes poorly written software can bring down the OS. It happens on every platform, get over it. Stop being a troll, and flamebait.
I'm still not sure if he's just so far removed from the reality of what is going on that he really believes what he's saying, or if he's just impressively two-faced. I suspect the former, just because I don't look for a conspiracy when simple ignorance will do.
and: and: Ok, I would like to see some of this disclosure. Why did the Samba team need to reverse-engineer the Windows file sharing protocol if such information is so widely available?What information did Microsoft need to provide to Sun? More likely, they got information from Sun about the various UNIX protocols so they could embrace and extend them.
If Microsoft was really that open with their specifications, wouldn't writing a Win32 emulator be easier? Instead, it seems to actually be simpler to write a working complete PC emulator and rely on Windows' ability to cope well with different hardware to let it run well than it it to duplicate the ever-changing and never-documented Win32 APIs.
I have no doubt that interoperability played a huge role in development at Microsoft. They needed to talk with other software packages and operating systems in order to gain market share.
At the same time, they could leverage their position as the operating system provider to prevent others from doing the same thing to them.
From the earliest days of DOS, they kept their cards close. The use of those (intentionally?) undocumented DOS calls in Excel gave Microsoft a big advantage over Lotus-1-2-3, who had to go in and either re-implement an existing (but unknown) API that Microsoft had in the OS, or reverse engineer the process to find the undocumented calls that the Excel folks had advance notice of. By the same token, Microsof could and did (deliberately?) change the "undocumented" APIs that Lotus relied on while simultaneously changing the new version of Excel to stop using them.
In short, they seem to have a firm handle on the fact that the path to dominance is to make sure your product can interface with others, but don't let the others interface with you.
I normally drive an even cheaper car than this - the *mighty* Subaru Sherpa (which cost me about $A500). (I believe you can't get them in the US, as they aren't considered particularly safe.) It has the raw, throbbing power of a 2-cylinder 600cc motor (yeah, yeah ... _I've_ owned motorcycles with a bigger engine too) and it costs about $A20 (that's about $US10) to fill its 5 gall tank. Which'll haul you from here to the moon and back, just about.
Added to that, no-one would even consider stealing it, so you don't ever have to find a solution to _that_ problem.
What a long, strange trip it's been.
Doctors are smart ... a dubious proposition. Even if many of them are, they don't need to be, as (like mechanics) they are technicians.
What a long, strange trip it's been.
"Trialability: the degree to which an innovation may be experimented with on a limited basis. OK, Windows fails this too -- but people don't even know there's an alternative to be tried. Where's the *NIX equivalent of AOL's "1000 free hours" preview?"
I can see how that would be helpful.There are still two problems with that; distribution and paying for the disks themselves.
Normal people dont know about Linux. Normal people don't want to download Linux. Normal people don't know that downloading is how you get Linux. Someone needs to fix all that, and AOL has certainly demonstrated that it can be done.
"Never, never suspect the dreams within the dreams of dreaming children." ~The Amazon Quartet
MS probably did have a lot to do with standardizing a PC platform
From what i've read, MS won the contract to supply the OS for IBM's new PC. It was IBM who was creating the standard by, well, by being IBM. Micros were not "appropriate" machines for big business until IBM said "Let there be PCs".
The ironic part is that IBM was compelled to use a 3rd party OS because of their own antitrust problems in the mainframe arena. Way back when, they (IBM) were forced to unbundle the OS from their hardware.
Another interesting fact is that UNIX was given to academia because AT&T (the creator) was prohibited by antitrust laws from competing in the computer industry. Thus, no commercial value for them in UNIX.
Microsoft was found to be an abusive monopoly that engaged in illegal activity, yet we're somehow supposed to care when Gates whines that the proposed remedies would hurt Microsoft? Isn't that one of the main purposes of the remedies -- to set an example for others to notice?
I've been going thru the posts and I'm wondering.
What's Netscape?
What about OS X?
Hooo, and, who said you cannot un-install IE for windows? Simple format you're disk and install another OS or give your computer to charity and get another box with another OS.
About the free preview thing, somebody should make a giant HTML site that simulates linux in a browser.
you know what i mean?
big K image maps and stuff like that.
ok i'm insane.
Yes, MS did bully everyone, and their mother. Yes, MS did make every attempt to stifle their competition. But, that is no reason to force them to strip down their OS to itty-bitty modules.
Linux/BSD/etc's strengths are its modularity and the large amount of freedom of choice a person has when using it. This is why people use it. Everything from the file system to the Window Manager can be customized/changed. In fact, that is also a weakness. It seems like there is a new distribution created every 15 seconds. Many times, programs will only be tested with a handful of the most popular flavors of Linux.
MS's strength is the fact that it is NOT as customizable, in my opinion. The core OS is not amazing by any definition, and isn't really all that valuable by itself. In fact, it is plain mediocre. However, the fact that it is a common interface is very refreshing. The bundled software is not bad. In fact, one could say that some of it is good. I know Slashdot readers love Mozilla, but IE really is a good browser. The value of Windows isn't in the technical excellence of its kernel. Its in the user experience. By bundling everything together, MS is providing their interpretation as to what an OS should do, and they are entitled to their opinion. Is it impossible for them to split the OS from the bundled apps? Probably not, but the OS itself is a cheap commodity, and it really would be more difficult for them to test/support Windows if it was entirely modular.
What they are NOT entitled to do is bully computer manufacturers into not installing additional software on their machines. MS should not be allowed to force them to pay for a Windows license for machines that have no OS, or have Linux.
If you really want a customizable OS, then don't use MS. If you want to punish MS, then fine them, and set up oversite committees to make sure they don't bully distributors. Or find another penalty. Windows shouldn't have to be stripped down.
People keep saying, "Linux on the Desktop is alive and well". "OS X is amazing." So use it.
I do not know who gives a damn, but Autodesk has also testified. They are best friends with M$ and still can not produce anything else but software that SUCKS. They were also praising M$ for it's support for developers.
GD
Oh, I'm sorry. I must obviously be some kind of lackwitted piece of egotistical shit if I think that after 17 years of designing and developing software in the real world, I had to learn more and be smarter than the guy who cleaned my carburetor when my car didn't even turn over when I went to start it this morning! (yes, this is actual situation when my son's car stopped working about two months ago) Gee, why didn't you tell me that earlier? I would give him 500 bucks instead of 10! Hey, but why did he almost lick my ass thanking me after I gave him those 10 bucks when he said that I have to pay 8.90? That's very strange, he's so smart that he obviously earn the ammount of my tip in two seconds! If in your opinion changing the damned oil is equally difficult (from the intellectual standpoint) as designing and implementing complex systems in biotech, than I'm changing my job tomorrow, because if it's equally difficult (and therefore equally paid), than I'll have less stress while working on a damned gas station for my $200/hour! No more deadlines! No more painful thinking! Thanks! You changed my life plans! How can I thank you!
Of course they are, unlike the guy who told me "So, whadda fuck is wrong widda fuckin car?", to whom I answered "It feels like the fuel injection gets not enough power when I try to accelerate, sir." after which I heard "Gedda fuck adda here! T'aint fuckin possible man! This injection's a damn good piece o'shit!". This is actually quite a funny situation, because he got a BSOD when trying to connect to my car computer with his laptop. He shouted "Fuck! I hate when the fuckin shit brakes, why dahell those computers are so fuckin stupid!" and I answered "Well, sir, you should use the operating system which doesn't run unstable graphics card drivers in the kernel space then." He looked at me with the most stupid look I've ever seen and he didn't say anything else to me that day. So, you're right, doctors are not so stupid. Professors are not so stupid either. But how does it make my point about people fixing cars any less valid?
Maybe changing the oil is not as mentally challenging, but your attitude stinks.
And now, for a special annoucement from the President of the United States.
Presidetn Clinton: [from the Oval Office] My fellow Americans, I wish to address the concerns many of us have over the growing number of Microsoft licensing agreements appearing in the United States. The new Japanese emperor, Bill Gates, has made our own children into fighter pilots who will soon fly to Hawaii and attack Pearl Harbor. I spoke with Mr. Gates this morning, and he assured me that I have a very large penis. He said it was mammoth, dinosauric, and absolutely dwarfed his penis, which, he assured me, was nearly microscopic in size. My penis, he said, was most likely one of the biggest on the planet. I applaud Mr. Gates in his honesty. Thank you.
"Well kids, you tried your best, and you failed. The lesson is, never try." -Homer Simpson
Thanks, that was fantastic, and is being stolen for a journal entry as soon as I get home tonight!
My Journal
The final paragraph of the exec summary says it all. Any remedy should "preserve the economic and consumer benefits that Windows provides".
I take issue with the preserve. If we preserve it we preserve Microsoft. If they preserve Miscrosoft where does potential change for the better come from?
Mr Gates also makes the assumption in that statement that those economic and consumer benefits are the best solution. Who has actually done any form of study and in a neutral manner come to that conclusion?
"The term IE can be used in different contexts to mean different (kinds) of code," he said. "There is no known definition... where it is clear you know (exactly) what somebody is talking about."
Anyone else look at this and flashback to the question of "what is is?"Put identity in the browser.
To do this with linux you can switch to another virtual terminal (CTRL+ALT+F2, for instance). If you want an X server, then start one. If you already logged in through XDM, you can still switch to a text console and log in as another user, then run startx -- :1. Then switch between your X servers with CTRL+ALT+F7,F8 (or whichever VCs you are using for your X servers.)
I sometimes do this on the family computer. I'll start an X session for myself on VC8, and leave a guest login on VC7 for the rest of the family.
#define X(x,y) x##y
Peter Cordes ; e-mail: X(peter@cordes ,
Bill Gates is a nerd; he loves to tinker with computers, code a bit.
So why is the slashdot community bashing him all the time and - at the same time - promoting legalese speaking suits to new heights?
People who include lines like :-(
I wonder how long it will take before I get modded down for not toeing the party line...a few mins? should be modded down IMHO - God I'm getting tired of it, that line destroyed an otherwise perfectly sensible comment
if (!signature) { throw std::runtime_error("No sig!"); }
Thank you MS employee #15,236. Please remember to post with your real assigned screen name so that you get proper stock credit. Thank you.
Sincerely,
S. Balmer
What's wrong with OS X? It's a great operating system. It's downfall is that it only runs on (relatively) expensive hardware. I would be running Mac OS X if it worked on my x86-based system. And I'd still be dual booting Wintendo to play Dark Age of Camelot, unfortunately.
I keep forgetting my place. Jesus is for losers. Why do I still play to the crowd?
Look at the progression of computers: from Universities, to the Military, to Business, and finally, to the Home User. Linux will follow a similar progression (with the exception of the Military, possibly). It has already begun. When the majority of business applications run on Linux (and I mean business apps, like accounting, ERP, etc.. *NOT* office suites) it will then filter down to the Home users. The focus of the Linux/ Open Source community should be on these critical business applications.
Oh, so now you say than I am right indeed but you still argue because you don't like the truth? How convenient! Very mature argument, congratulations! I don't know anything about you, so please forgive me if I offended you because you have low IQ or you work for less than $100 per hour, or you have 6 inch penis or even smaller, or you have old car or whatever. I am very sorry that I have IQ 178, I am very sorry that people say I'm much smarten than most of people, I am very sorry that I get paid $200/h for what I do, I am very sorry that thanks to my shiny Testarossa I have more chicks in a bad week than other people have in their whole miserable lives and I am even more sorry that I have a beautiful, tightly circumcised, 8.5 inch penis. I am sorry indeed, I will try to stop being proud of what I achieved with my own hard work, starting from zero. Are you happy now? Answer, are you happy?
That actualy hurt...
just remeberthat if you use Mungemaster with the new non-orthogonal process you can experiance a 1.5% wergle alignment speed increase
I used to have a cool sig, back when I cared
I'm a technical writer. I write fricking manuals for a living and I never, never knew this. I really feel stupid stupid stupid. Thanks.
(And I'll look up the Rosenberg article, too.) Thanks.
Not that I'm so smart (obviously), but clearly Joe User isn't able to find or use this stuff either.
No, no text here. Why did you bother to look?
In time everything changes whethyer we want it to or not.
for example I exclusively run linux not because I love to tinker, but I got very tired of MS. I am a "normal user" and I know of many others like me.
things change. they always do.
MS will not be around forever and the world will be a different place. However I do agree, Why bother?
I wish I understood all this stuff!
okay, first let me say that the odds of anyone reading this post are about slim to nothing
having said that, here goes.
does anyone else love the option of being able to put all the buttons on the side of the box instead of across the bottom?
2^3 * 31 * 647
Fine, I think that we all agree that
car mechanics are much more stupid
than programmers. But do you think
that they are a lower kind of people?
I don't think so. They may be stupid,
but still they are human beings and
as such they deserve our respect.
-Jake.
I've lost the Web-source of this graphic, so I'll sumarize a few details:
Its an ad parody for an Australian-customization Win Version named:"Windaz Too Thowsand". What's really changed is the Titles and Option Names.
"The 'Start' button has been replaced- (G'Day).
The 'Recycle Bin' named something more fitting- (Bullshit Bin).
'Control Panel' has a new name- (How To Fuck Around With The Settings).
'C: Drive' becomes- (Big Disk With All Me Stuff On It).
'Do you want to save the changes' offers- (Fuckin Oath), (Bugger Off), (Fuck That).
'Help Topics' is preceded by- (Where's That Fucking File Gone?).
'My Documents' renamed to- (My Crap).
'OK- to accept becomes- (You Ripper).
'Calculator' -> (Adding Thingymabob).
'Paint' -> (Keeping The Kids Busy).
'NotePad' -> (Writing Death Threats To The Boss).
'IE' -> (Porn).
Price is just two months worth of Dole money!
Microsoft - Where do you want to get p*ssed today?"
----------------
Sorry if THAT offends but the Slang Terms used are in the contexy!
.
(David Bowman, EVA near HUGE Monolithic Win-PC in orbit around Jupiter) "My God - its full of Malware!"