I have only one complaint about the speed, and that's G++ compiling (which is slow for everyone...).
I have noticed that... I had K Develop index the QT and KDE documentation on my Celeron 700 (large index) oops!!! It was still going after an entire night of running. I killed the process and said fsck it!
- Mandrake (afaik) was the first and so far only Linux distro to be sold as a standalone product in Walmart, and I bought several versions there (as the king of Swamp Castle says "... just to show 'em!"). Software specifics aside, this is another good reason to be grateful to Mandrake, whether you use their distro or not. Lindows was *not* the first Walmart-associated Linux:) [And I could be wrong -- perhaps they also had Red Hat, dunno.]
While my example is not Wal-Mart, but, FYI, I used to be able to buy Red Hat and Mandrake from Best Buy. As a matter of fact, I have still have the "Linux-Mandrake 7.2 Professional Suite" box set I bought from Best Buy. I believe that I have seen SUSE available at Best Buy as well. Now, mind you, the choices available at Best Buy have dwindled I think, but I know at least Red Hat is still available. (Right next to all the M$ stuff). Best Buy actually tried to keep a decent selection at one time... I remember BeOS (yes you read that right) on the shelf next to Red Hat, when BeOS was still kicking.
This 91.RC1 defiently is not a proper release candidate. It isn't even frozen yet! I'm really getting sick of using RC tags in linux world, and Mandrake had been the prime offender until KDE released seven candidates...
"Linux does a hell of a lot more than file and web serving and it does all of them a lot better than Windows."
If that were true, hardly anyone would use Windows. The fact remains that more people do choose Windows because it does a lot of things better than Linux. Linux does do a few things better than Windows, of course. But only some.
Well, let's see, I can make a list of things Linux does well:
Fileserver (already been mentioned
Webserver (also already mentioned)
Database server (PostreSQL)(or now you can use Oracle I here).
Mail server, unless you HAVE to have Exchange.
DNS server
I'll stop there, but if I actually put some more thought into this, I can probably find another one. And yes, I have used Linux to perform all of the above tasks, minus databasing.
Oh yeah, and before you say, "it's easeir on Windows," go have a look at Webmin first.
Well of course you cannot get a plain caddy... Apple wants you to buy the drives from them! They are like Sun... The majority of their money is made on hardware.
Funny how different people's experiences vary with different manufacturer's drive. I'm the exact opposite. I have 3 IBM GXP drives in this house and 2 of them are a over a year old... no probs... the other 1 is six months old, no probs... However, all the WD that I bought that the IBMs replaced went belly up (one the moment it came out of the box and i powered it up and heard the infamous "klunk klunk klunk" of death!) The other WDs died approximately in a 6 month timespan. And I have had a problem with WD hard drives at work for the last 2 production years. The "RMA box" is mostly full of WD drives needing to go back.
Besides WD, the other company I'm not too impressed with is Maxtor... the "look like quantums with maxtor's name on them" models are just too loud. And the performance isn't stellar either. However, I don't have to RMA as many of the Maxtor's, so I'll consider that a plus.
The only hard drives I have in this house that I really love.... my 2 Seagate Cheetahs (both 10K scsi drives, one i've had for a year, the other I've had for 3 years). Both of those drives are in my linux fileserver (samba). The windows boxes get the affordable ide drives.;) (Now, if I could only afford a 15K rpm I'd be really happy... heh)
But like Gentoo, debian does provide a ton of docs, and the text files you edit + man pages, I'm learning alot more than I did with RedHat and Mandrake.. but then I think I've grown more daring in trying to FIX problems, than re-installing;)
I can somewhat relate to that, but on a different note. I recently tried FreeBSD 4.7... eek!! OMG that installer, while not too terrible, was a huge difference from even RedHat's text installer. Oh, and if that partitioning program was fdisk, it sure didn't look like the one i'm used to on linux! After my initial "freak out" I managed to plod along, and the system installed, X included. After installation, things didn't get any easier. Even though my "unix basics" can get me around the system. I didn't know where half the config stuff was! LOTS of man page reading!! Anyhow, I nuked it and went back to RedHat:) LMAO
Once upon a time I installed RedHat 7.3 with absolutely NOTHING selected. It still wanted to install 400MB of random stuff...
Being a Red Hat user since 5.2, I can attest that the minimal install has grown a good bit now at v8.0.
I haven't done this since broadband became decently available... I used take old packard bells, dells, compaqs, whatever,etc... that were 486 machines, and turn them into NAT boxes for small offices in the area where I live/work. (This was before broadband, and ISDN was too expensive for a very small office = 4 people at most.) So, I made their 56k connection available through NAT on a 486 w/ a 500MB hard disk and as much ram as that 486 could take, and of course a good modem. Slap on a minimal RedHat install, and still had room left over on a 500MB drive! Unfortunately, RedHat has allowed some bloat over time, I would need a slightly faster system and a slightly larger hd to achieve this easily now.
Why does a distro have to have the "bleeding edge" to be good? debian seems to just "work". Granted, this is just my own opinion, and as long as it's OSS, who cares
It doesn't have to be bleeding edge on the application front, but I would like it to run my bleeding edge hardware:) That is more Mandrake's expertise, in my experience. (OT: Although I did have a problem with Mandrake 9 not correctly setting up my Hauppauge tv card... whereas with RedHat 8 it works fine... It's strange quirks like that that I stay with Red Hat).
Well there IS also a big problem with OpenSource. The problem of no one is responsible for problems, damage and other stuff.
Hmm, last I checked, I can't sue most of the closed source companies for any damages to my data that their software may cause (indirectly or directly) as their "shrink wrap" license prohibits it.
OpenSource will never be able to program the way the customer needs the software.
Neither does closed source. When's the last time you could go to Adobe and say "I need suchandsuch feature right now, can you add it for me?" Nope.
If you look at commercial Companies such as Apple for example. Most of their applications look equal, feel equal and behave equal because they spent a lot of money into their design, their usability and their programmers. All this is missing on OpenSource.
They are different libraries providing different feels, yes. And this is the reason Red Hat included a theme for KDE and Gnome to make them look the same. Yet, there are a fair amount of complaints I have with the Windows Explorer and I'm not completely happy with the Mac OS desktop, although I like it now in Mac OS X more than I did previously. Thus, closed source isn't perfect there, either.
Specially if you as developer work freely on your program and realize how other companies such as RedHat, Sun, SuSE and many others outsource your hard work and sell it for cash to other people.
Depends, some OS developers are getting compensated for their work, as there are project developers working for some distros.
- Developers seriously like to get money for their work.
Yes, people, in general, like to get paid for work. However, a good portion of OS programmers I am willing to bet are professional programmers who do this on the side because some personal fulfillment doesn't get met at work.
- OpenSource is a free ticket for companies to have your shit outsourced for cash.
Can be. Not always.
- You work hard on your own project trying to reach some big stuff with other community members such as in a GNOME project but you always fail to convince them because everyone plays as an individual instead in a team.
Team play is hard to achieve sometimes even in a closed source environment, that's where people get reassigned, let go, etc... Happens in the OS world, too. People have left projects, or in some cases, kicked out.
I'm not saying that OS is the perfect solution, but it works pretty well for some companies, and I would venture to say that there is room for more companies, if they can get it right. Red Hat manages to:)
Re:How am I suppose to put this...
on
Cashless Society
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· Score: 2, Funny
Just swipe the card down her crack...
Funny you should mention that, as I have a true story for that statement:
I have a friend who actually did that to a stripper... he wasn't tipping and the bouncer told him he had better start tipping or he would ask him to leave (my friend wasn't ordering drinks either, so the place wasn't making much off him, just the door charge). He didn't have any one dollar bills on him, so he whipped out his credit card, swipped it down her crack, and the bouncer promptly escourted him to the door!
DON'T FORGET BIOS FLASHING!!!!! About the only thing I still use them for. Seriously, though, who wants to waste an entire cdrom and time spent to make a bootable CD w/ bios utility and bin file? The floppy is simple & effective:)
This does not include road runner which is rumoured to be bandwitch mettered on top of this!
Appearantly, they don't meter here (Springfield, OH) or the limit is very high, because I'm sure I'd have gone over it. I have a very fast connection, which I attribute to A) no neighbors have it I assume (yet) and B) there is a fibre link running down the main road only 100 yards from me. (which is nice). On toast.net's comprehensive free test, I hit over 2000Kbps regularly, (~250KB/s which is about what I see in downloads from major sites). I downloaded both RedHat8(5 disks) and Mandrake9(only 3 disks) in the same day, let alone what I do in a month. I've never been charged for going over limit, if there is one, I'm not aware of it.
It's not virtually impossible to buy a new PC without Windows pre-installed. I can look in my newspaper, and see ads for brand new PCs that don't come with Windows, or any other OS at all. You can buy the PC and install what you want on it. And there's always buying a "new" PC from parts on Price Watch and assembling it yourself. Then you can add whatever OS you want. See, it's not that hard to find a PC without Windows on it.
Problem is, most of the "average users" go down to Best Buy/(insert store here) and buy ye-old-computer-deal-of-the-week. Which, of course, comes pre-loaded with Windows. (The only exception I see at the moment being the Wal-Mart Lindows PCs)
Well, I find that Linux works much better when you stay far far far away from components integrated into motherboards. And besides, gives you more flexibility, too.
Most of the driver problems I have run into have been with integrated devices.
That's the crazy part -- This onboard audio works fine under Windows 2000 (and as far as onboard audio goes... not that bad at all). Since it can work fine, it just bothers me that I get mediocre (at best) results on Linux.
I'm not worried about it, though. Everytime I come across an onboard audio driver that sux in linux, usually the next version of the distro I use has a better driver, and end of problem.:)
I am not that familiar with the *BSDs, so I didn't realize that they don't all use the same kernel. I tried FreeBSD once, there were some nitpicky things I did not like. I've yet to try Net or Open BSD.
Remember: The first thing you should do when you log into KDE for the first time is go to the KDE sound server window and turn off the aRts server.
If I do that, what is going to allow me to have sound from my X apps? You have to have a sound server, correct?
I use KDE, and experience the sound lag you talk about. It drives me up the proverbial wall. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I killed arts and tried ESD, with not much of a difference. It was only marginally better.
So, if you don't have artsd or esd, what is taking care of your sound? I would like to know, because I get less than acceptible results at the moment. I have an onboard ac '97 codec (via chipset) that works fine in windows, blows chunks on Linux, because Arts "overloads" or something like that (I can't remember the error message exactly.) Plus, there is a huge lag in sound on games. Example, in gltron, the sound is about 2 seconds behind. I tried switching to ESD, and although it worked better than artsd, there is still some lag at times. Same goes for Tux racer. Meanwhile, the graphics card never skips a beat.
ReactOS not a bad idea -- it will serve a purpose
on
ReactOS 0.1.0 Released
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· Score: 2, Informative
Great post man!:)
I too use both NT and Linux. As far as Windows goes, I have used "NT based" Windows since 4.0, as I quickly learned that Win95 sucked big ones...
Windows allows me to play games (woohoo! play time!). Especially after Win2000 came out. Finally, USB and newer DirectX was available. And, as long as you had good hardware with well-written drivers, NT is quite livable. However, WPA has turned me off to Windows. MS will never see a cent from me on XP. I had a chance to play with WinXP for a while (on a play-machine as I called it). I was able to trip WPA after some hardware changes. Annoying to say the least. I will stay on 2000 until it is no longer supported.
I love Linux because of it's openness. Sure, it took me awhile to learn it. (Started with RedHat 5.2 when it came out). But, here I am some years later, able to use Linux for everything I need except scanning & games (my scanner has no Linux support last I tried... it's a USB Hewlett Packard 3300C USB, and not all games available for linux. WineX doesn't count in my book).
Oh, you commented about linux taking a beating and still chugging along. One day, a fellow Linux user and I were playing with his dual celeron 400 machine (remember that cool abit mobo back when?) and he was probing around the insides trying to figure out where a noise was coming from. He accidentally unplugged an ide cable! (Yes, his hard drive was on that one) Linux didn't panic or anything. He plugged it back in... the machine didn't seem to notice the difference. (and he did have some background services running.) We had a good laugh on that one (I don't recommend hotswapping anything like that btw)
I find that NT 4 was fast until you installed IE 4.0 with active desktop... if you chose NOT to install active desktop, you could keep most of the speediness that you mention... I had a pair of Pentium Pro 200Mhz/256k cache machines for filesharing on a windows network. They ran NT 4 pretty quick. Eventually, they were replaced by P3 500Mhz machines running linux w/ samba. (There was something cool about Pentium Pros though... I kinda miss them.)
Slashdot Mirror
They tried it once with the i860 (or was it i960?) and now they are trying it again.
I think it was the i860... The i960 is what I have on my scsi-raid card - as it was meant for embeded stuff I believe.
I have only one complaint about the speed, and that's G++ compiling (which is slow for everyone...).
I have noticed that... I had K Develop index the QT and KDE documentation on my Celeron 700 (large index) oops!!! It was still going after an entire night of running. I killed the process and said fsck it!
- Mandrake (afaik) was the first and so far only Linux distro to be sold as a standalone product in Walmart, and I bought several versions there (as the king of Swamp Castle says "... just to show 'em!"). Software specifics aside, this is another good reason to be grateful to Mandrake, whether you use their distro or not. Lindows was *not* the first Walmart-associated Linux :) [And I could be wrong -- perhaps they also had Red Hat, dunno.]
While my example is not Wal-Mart, but, FYI, I used to be able to buy Red Hat and Mandrake from Best Buy. As a matter of fact, I have still have the "Linux-Mandrake 7.2 Professional Suite" box set I bought from Best Buy. I believe that I have seen SUSE available at Best Buy as well. Now, mind you, the choices available at Best Buy have dwindled I think, but I know at least Red Hat is still available. (Right next to all the M$ stuff). Best Buy actually tried to keep a decent selection at one time... I remember BeOS (yes you read that right) on the shelf next to Red Hat, when BeOS was still kicking.
Not frozen yet? Better go read again...
Quoting from the webpage:
RC1 - Feb, 19th 2003 Release notes:
If that were true, hardly anyone would use Windows. The fact remains that more people do choose Windows because it does a lot of things better than Linux. Linux does do a few things better than Windows, of course. But only some.
Well, let's see, I can make a list of things Linux does well:
I'll stop there, but if I actually put some more thought into this, I can probably find another one. And yes, I have used Linux to perform all of the above tasks, minus databasing.
Oh yeah, and before you say, "it's easeir on Windows," go have a look at Webmin first.
That's my
Well of course you cannot get a plain caddy... Apple wants you to buy the drives from them! They are like Sun... The majority of their money is made on hardware.
Funny how different people's experiences vary with different manufacturer's drive. I'm the exact opposite. I have 3 IBM GXP drives in this house and 2 of them are a over a year old... no probs... the other 1 is six months old, no probs... However, all the WD that I bought that the IBMs replaced went belly up (one the moment it came out of the box and i powered it up and heard the infamous "klunk klunk klunk" of death!) The other WDs died approximately in a 6 month timespan. And I have had a problem with WD hard drives at work for the last 2 production years. The "RMA box" is mostly full of WD drives needing to go back.
;) (Now, if I could only afford a 15K rpm I'd be really happy... heh)
Besides WD, the other company I'm not too impressed with is Maxtor... the "look like quantums with maxtor's name on them" models are just too loud. And the performance isn't stellar either. However, I don't have to RMA as many of the Maxtor's, so I'll consider that a plus.
The only hard drives I have in this house that I really love.... my 2 Seagate Cheetahs (both 10K scsi drives, one i've had for a year, the other I've had for 3 years). Both of those drives are in my linux fileserver (samba). The windows boxes get the affordable ide drives.
But like Gentoo, debian does provide a ton of docs, and the text files you edit + man pages, I'm learning alot more than I did with RedHat and Mandrake.. but then I think I've grown more daring in trying to FIX problems, than re-installing ;)
:) LMAO
I can somewhat relate to that, but on a different note. I recently tried FreeBSD 4.7... eek!! OMG that installer, while not too terrible, was a huge difference from even RedHat's text installer. Oh, and if that partitioning program was fdisk, it sure didn't look like the one i'm used to on linux! After my initial "freak out" I managed to plod along, and the system installed, X included. After installation, things didn't get any easier. Even though my "unix basics" can get me around the system. I didn't know where half the config stuff was! LOTS of man page reading!! Anyhow, I nuked it and went back to RedHat
Once upon a time I installed RedHat 7.3 with absolutely NOTHING selected. It still wanted to install 400MB of random stuff...
Being a Red Hat user since 5.2, I can attest that the minimal install has grown a good bit now at v8.0.
I haven't done this since broadband became decently available... I used take old packard bells, dells, compaqs, whatever,etc... that were 486 machines, and turn them into NAT boxes for small offices in the area where I live/work. (This was before broadband, and ISDN was too expensive for a very small office = 4 people at most.) So, I made their 56k connection available through NAT on a 486 w/ a 500MB hard disk and as much ram as that 486 could take, and of course a good modem. Slap on a minimal RedHat install, and still had room left over on a 500MB drive! Unfortunately, RedHat has allowed some bloat over time, I would need a slightly faster system and a slightly larger hd to achieve this easily now.
Why does a distro have to have the "bleeding edge" to be good? debian seems to just "work". Granted, this is just my own opinion, and as long as it's OSS, who cares
:) That is more Mandrake's expertise, in my experience. (OT: Although I did have a problem with Mandrake 9 not correctly setting up my Hauppauge tv card... whereas with RedHat 8 it works fine... It's strange quirks like that that I stay with Red Hat).
It doesn't have to be bleeding edge on the application front, but I would like it to run my bleeding edge hardware
Well there IS also a big problem with OpenSource. The problem of no one is responsible for problems, damage and other stuff.
:)
Hmm, last I checked, I can't sue most of the closed source companies for any damages to my data that their software may cause (indirectly or directly) as their "shrink wrap" license prohibits it.
OpenSource will never be able to program the way the customer needs the software.
Neither does closed source. When's the last time you could go to Adobe and say "I need suchandsuch feature right now, can you add it for me?" Nope.
If you look at commercial Companies such as Apple for example. Most of their applications look equal, feel equal and behave equal because they spent a lot of money into their design, their usability and their programmers. All this is missing on OpenSource.
They are different libraries providing different feels, yes. And this is the reason Red Hat included a theme for KDE and Gnome to make them look the same. Yet, there are a fair amount of complaints I have with the Windows Explorer and I'm not completely happy with the Mac OS desktop, although I like it now in Mac OS X more than I did previously. Thus, closed source isn't perfect there, either.
Specially if you as developer work freely on your program and realize how other companies such as RedHat, Sun, SuSE and many others outsource your hard work and sell it for cash to other people.
Depends, some OS developers are getting compensated for their work, as there are project developers working for some distros.
- Developers seriously like to get money for their work.
Yes, people, in general, like to get paid for work. However, a good portion of OS programmers I am willing to bet are professional programmers who do this on the side because some personal fulfillment doesn't get met at work.
- OpenSource is a free ticket for companies to have your shit outsourced for cash.
Can be. Not always.
- You work hard on your own project trying to reach some big stuff with other community members such as in a GNOME project but you always fail to convince them because everyone plays as an individual instead in a team.
Team play is hard to achieve sometimes even in a closed source environment, that's where people get reassigned, let go, etc... Happens in the OS world, too. People have left projects, or in some cases, kicked out.
I'm not saying that OS is the perfect solution, but it works pretty well for some companies, and I would venture to say that there is room for more companies, if they can get it right. Red Hat manages to
Just swipe the card down her crack...
Funny you should mention that, as I have a true story for that statement:
I have a friend who actually did that to a stripper... he wasn't tipping and the bouncer told him he had better start tipping or he would ask him to leave (my friend wasn't ordering drinks either, so the place wasn't making much off him, just the door charge). He didn't have any one dollar bills on him, so he whipped out his credit card, swipped it down her crack, and the bouncer promptly escourted him to the door!
I agree, but I think the above retailers missed that one, seeing that they charge the same friggin' price on the net as in the store.
That's jus it though, they have a store. Unlike an online-only biz which has much less overhead. Thus the prices should be lower.
DON'T FORGET BIOS FLASHING!!!!! About the only thing I still use them for. Seriously, though, who wants to waste an entire cdrom and time spent to make a bootable CD w/ bios utility and bin file? The floppy is simple & effective :)
This does not include road runner which is rumoured to be bandwitch mettered on top of this!
Appearantly, they don't meter here (Springfield, OH) or the limit is very high, because I'm sure I'd have gone over it. I have a very fast connection, which I attribute to A) no neighbors have it I assume (yet) and B) there is a fibre link running down the main road only 100 yards from me. (which is nice). On toast.net's comprehensive free test, I hit over 2000Kbps regularly, (~250KB/s which is about what I see in downloads from major sites). I downloaded both RedHat8(5 disks) and Mandrake9(only 3 disks) in the same day, let alone what I do in a month. I've never been charged for going over limit, if there is one, I'm not aware of it.
It's not virtually impossible to buy a new PC without Windows pre-installed. I can look in my newspaper, and see ads for brand new PCs that don't come with Windows, or any other OS at all. You can buy the PC and install what you want on it. And there's always buying a "new" PC from parts on Price Watch and assembling it yourself. Then you can add whatever OS you want. See, it's not that hard to find a PC without Windows on it.
Problem is, most of the "average users" go down to Best Buy/(insert store here) and buy ye-old-computer-deal-of-the-week. Which, of course, comes pre-loaded with Windows. (The only exception I see at the moment being the Wal-Mart Lindows PCs)
Well, I find that Linux works much better when you stay far far far away from components integrated into motherboards. And besides, gives you more flexibility, too.
Most of the driver problems I have run into have been with integrated devices.
That's the crazy part -- This onboard audio works fine under Windows 2000 (and as far as onboard audio goes... not that bad at all). Since it can work fine, it just bothers me that I get mediocre (at best) results on Linux.
:)
I'm not worried about it, though. Everytime I come across an onboard audio driver that sux in linux, usually the next version of the distro I use has a better driver, and end of problem.
I am not that familiar with the *BSDs, so I didn't realize that they don't all use the same kernel. I tried FreeBSD once, there were some nitpicky things I did not like. I've yet to try Net or Open BSD.
<flamebait>
I have no problem with reading the manuals. More people should do it. Hell, I have a bookshelf full...
</flamebait>
There are more than 5 different Linux distros... I don't see Linux suffering because of it.
Remember: The first thing you should do when you log into KDE for the first time is go to the KDE sound server window and turn off the aRts server.
If I do that, what is going to allow me to have sound from my X apps? You have to have a sound server, correct?
I use KDE, and experience the sound lag you talk about. It drives me up the proverbial wall. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I killed arts and tried ESD, with not much of a difference. It was only marginally better.
So, if you don't have artsd or esd, what is taking care of your sound? I would like to know, because I get less than acceptible results at the moment. I have an onboard ac '97 codec (via chipset) that works fine in windows, blows chunks on Linux, because Arts "overloads" or something like that (I can't remember the error message exactly.) Plus, there is a huge lag in sound on games. Example, in gltron, the sound is about 2 seconds behind. I tried switching to ESD, and although it worked better than artsd, there is still some lag at times. Same goes for Tux racer. Meanwhile, the graphics card never skips a beat.
Great post man! :)
I too use both NT and Linux. As far as Windows goes, I have used "NT based" Windows since 4.0, as I quickly learned that Win95 sucked big ones...
Windows allows me to play games (woohoo! play time!). Especially after Win2000 came out. Finally, USB and newer DirectX was available. And, as long as you had good hardware with well-written drivers, NT is quite livable. However, WPA has turned me off to Windows. MS will never see a cent from me on XP. I had a chance to play with WinXP for a while (on a play-machine as I called it). I was able to trip WPA after some hardware changes. Annoying to say the least. I will stay on 2000 until it is no longer supported.
I love Linux because of it's openness. Sure, it took me awhile to learn it. (Started with RedHat 5.2 when it came out). But, here I am some years later, able to use Linux for everything I need except scanning & games (my scanner has no Linux support last I tried... it's a USB Hewlett Packard 3300C USB, and not all games available for linux. WineX doesn't count in my book).
Oh, you commented about linux taking a beating and still chugging along. One day, a fellow Linux user and I were playing with his dual celeron 400 machine (remember that cool abit mobo back when?) and he was probing around the insides trying to figure out where a noise was coming from. He accidentally unplugged an ide cable! (Yes, his hard drive was on that one) Linux didn't panic or anything. He plugged it back in... the machine didn't seem to notice the difference. (and he did have some background services running.) We had a good laugh on that one (I don't recommend hotswapping anything like that btw)
I find that NT 4 was fast until you installed IE 4.0 with active desktop... if you chose NOT to install active desktop, you could keep most of the speediness that you mention... I had a pair of Pentium Pro 200Mhz/256k cache machines for filesharing on a windows network. They ran NT 4 pretty quick. Eventually, they were replaced by P3 500Mhz machines running linux w/ samba. (There was something cool about Pentium Pros though... I kinda miss them.)