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FreeBSD Core Developer Thrown Out
SlashChick writes "From a discussion on the freebsd-chat mailing list, it appears that one of the FreeBSD core developers, Matt Dillon, has been barred from committing any changes to the FreeBSD kernel. Dillon was one of the developers 'responsible for making FreeBSD 4.x the most rugged and stress-proof free operating system in existence,' and also contributed to fixing the Linux VM. Unfortunately, there has been little explanation from the FreeBSD core team about why Dillon was thrown out, leading to speculation and worries about the future of the FreeBSD kernel. Does the Slashdot community have any more insight into this situation? Would someone from the FreeBSD team care to elaborate and assuage our worries?" CD Update: Greg Lehey from the core team has infact elaborated in this comment.
Just in time for Wild Things 2
Veeeeee don't need no stinkin lead developer.
but surely with all the attention Linux is getting with developers, they can't go getting rid of too many people?
Get your own free personal location tracker
Hopefully they didn't throw him out because he is named after a very popular actor ;).
'A lie if repeated often enough, becomes the truth.' - Goebbels
but I would think that the reason he was barred would be for the same reason most people are:
Differences in opinion. Maybe I am wrong (NEVER!) but that would be my guess.
Sent from your iPad.
The devil made them do it.
according to the add that was displayed with this article, he went on to work for microsofts's .net. i hope he has fun working with pure evil.....
xao
xao
http://TheHillforum.hopto.org
I think that's fairly clear. There are many strong, good hackers in this world who wouldn't be able to work together. While it's unfortunate that Matt and the rest of -core weren't able to resolve it, it's a fact of life in a big project...
While my primary job aint tech, i play one in my spare time....and i thought BSD was losing mindshare, as well as boxen?? For Gods sake, why would someone choose BSD over linux????.
I suppose due to the less restrictive commercial license, but IBM is showing how to deal with that...
Wow, actor and leet BSD Developer! Who'd have thunk?
It's all about office politics.
Hey probably wanted to make a new variant, like ExpensiveBSD or UltraFreeBSD or CoolBSD
Or maybe he admitted to owning a copy of Windows XP?
Never email donotemail@WeAreSpammers.com
I don't see this as being any different from when Theo De Raadt was removed from netBSD. In the long run, it is only good for the community - Dillon can now dedicate his time to starting DillonBSD, a new, ultra stable, secure, free (as in Iraq)OS. I can't wait to see it!
j/k :)
I like big butts and I cannot lie.
This remembers me the whole story between Theo de Raadt and NetBSD, which ended with the born of OpenBSD..
Miguel de incaza gets chucked out of gnome, helps kde instead.
*Pulls out Rosetta Stone*
Huh?
I don't see how this affects the future of anything.
He was thrown out, probably for abuse. Big deal.
Should have stuck with roller derby.
Great, as if there aren't enough BSD branches, here's another disgruntled deveoper that might pull a De Raadt and roll his own.
On that note, it's more likely would get adopted by one of the other BSDs, and not really need to start his own. I'm sure OpenBSD can use the help.
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
One thing the BSD developers need to know is that they have no justification in keeping this secret. It is aboput the users after all.
"A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming, is not worth knowing" - Alan Perlis
yeh, I'm marking c++ lab exercises now, and I can tell ya, people that don't comment enough surely don't make it easy on those people that have to understand their code.
...then release WinBSD!
Maybe Matt can find work at the OpenBSD project?
: )
Romana: "How did you know?" Doctor Who: "Ah, well, knowing is easy. Everyone does THAT ad nauseum. I just sort of hope"
"The short of it is that Matt was unable to treat many of his fellow developers with the civility and respect that They deserve. "
-- Wow. i'm sure Theo and co will be waiting with open arms. Sounds like Mr. Dillon would be right at home.
He was rumbled for posting all those "BSD is dying" trolls on /.
1.) The part of a text or statement that surrounds a particular word or passage and determines its meaning.
2.) The circumstances in which an event occurs; a setting.
3.) Including sufficient information to allow people to know what the hell you're talking about.
NOT!
Top ten posts will be:
Slashdot is jumping the shark. I'm just driving the boat.
Oddly enough, it was a very similar event that led to the creation of the OpenBSD project. Theo started it after a (rather extended, IIRC) tiff with the rest of the NetBSD core team.
If Matt decides to fork the code and start his own project, I think the technical world would be a better place for it. A fifth open source BSD might seem excessive to some, but there are still many ways for such a project to differentiate itself.
unixkb.com -- articles on practical Unix issues.
That's not a devil. That's a daemon.
There's no point in questioning authority if you aren't going to listen to the answers.
it just goes to figure, when you disrespect nerds...they come back and bite you in the ass
maybe he will round up a bunch of disgruntled renegades and go start their own distro ... oh wait, didnt theo already do this ?
... Gossip for Nerds, Stuff that chatters.
I know, its not even funny.
Everybody has a purpose in life, maybe mine is to lurk in slashdot.
See the google archive, he's never been a core
developer. In fact, apparently he's had his
commit bit removed twice already, and been
banned from the freebsd mailing lists once.
Firstly, the FreeBSD Core team (the use of "core developer" in the title of the article could be misleading) have given a lengthy explanation of this decision on the developers private list. This is where the explanation belongs and where it should stay. The reasons and the action are internal to the project and don't need to be aired in public.
Secondly, Matt is not the first, nor the last I dare say, high profile developer to leave the project. It didn't mean the death of FreeBSD then, it doesn't now. No single developer, no matter how talented and hard working, is irreplaceable. While Matt's technical contributions will certainly be missed, the claims of "imminent death, film at 11" are the same baseless FUD that came out when Mike Smith left or would have come out when John Dyson left (had Slashdot been around).
Thirdly, Matt is still free to contribute should he so wish. The only difference is that he will now have to contribute through PRs, at least for the near future, just as every other contributor started off doing, rather than directly committing himself. Whether he chooses to do this once the dust has settled is, of course, up to Matt.
Finally, long live FreeBSD! Can we please get back to worthwhile stories now :).
Sounds like crappy politics - ruins more stuff than it should. Why can't people just shut up and code?
Reminds me of a certain someone, a certain website, and a certain -1 Offtopic Mod.
But what do I know? Until you get two people together to talk it out while being moderated, you'll never get anywhere once the lines of communication break down.
Now that is good work :) !
find me one large project, software or otherwise, that doesn not have political battles and a clash of personalities.
Sorry, they already have that. Oh, wait. I thought you said WinBS O D. Sorry.
There's no point in questioning authority if you aren't going to listen to the answers.
"Does the Slashdot community have any more insight into this situation?"
Do you really have to ask for the *BSD is dying trolls?
Banaaaana!
I don't know anything about Matt or the BSD core so I'm only talking generally.
In my mind an unwritten requirement for most jobs is "smart and friendly." If you rub people the wrong way you're limiting yourself to small, one-person projects. Not the end of the world if you (or your manager) recognize this and play to your strengths. -IT
There are many strong, good hackers in this world who wouldn't be able to work together.
Geez, that's the truth. Anybody here ever work at Citysearch? Work is hard enough without having to listen to someone yelling or listening to the voices in your head telling you to strangle that someone. Even over email.
I live ze unknown. I love ze unknown. I am ze unknown.
The adult thing to do here is to do some serious (virtual if needed) handshaking and put this behind you guys.
This sounds like the NetBSD episode "Theo De Raadt" that aired sometime in the mid 90's. But then again, the BSDs are always copying from each other...
Open Source at it's best - a bunch of bitchy whining children.
Come on, Slashdot. Matt Dillon has been one of The Outsiders for at least 20 years.
taken! (by Davidleeroth) Thanks Bingo Foo!
What about Doc, Miss Kitty, and Chester? Are they the next to be kicked to the curb?
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
Hello,
I'm a member of the FreeBSD developers list. For obvious reasons I dont want to reveal my identity.
A debate has been raging over Matt Dillon for the past two weeks. In early January, Matt was raided by the Police and charged with posession of child pornography. This isnt publicly known yet. He is expected to appear in court on March the 12th over the charges.
Obviously when he appears in court this whole ordeal is going to come out. Matt is a huge contributor to FreeBSD. The core members dont want the publicity over this to reflect badly on FreeBSD.
The debate on the mailing list centers on whether it is ethically right to remove his access based on his sexual orientation. A small number of people (again, I wont say who) take the view that Matts private life should have nothing to do with his access and contributions to the FreeBSD project.
However, the core team seem to have decided in the past few days what action to take, and have decided to remove his access. Its a real shame, Matt was a talented and huge contributor to FreeBSD, but obviously the reputation of the project is very important.
I've read some hella good flames and wars on the linux kernel dev list, I never recall someone being invited not to take part though. Al Viro is especially good and reading your code and then telling you exactly how incompentent your are.
If this guy is the master hacker everyone makes him to be, this isn't enough explanation. Shouldn't the users have some say? Perhaps the mistreated developers should move on to other projects or maybe grow into adults and learn to take the heat, it's just software, it's not like you should be taking the flames seriously.
Good, let them kick him out, he is needed more elsewhere. Looks like he will be an awesome kernel developer now that he has more time to work on Linux. IMHO, The freebsd group has been edgy all along anyways and their inability or wishes to tell the community why they canned him is both unacceptable and plain silly.
Theo de Raadt Version 2.0
...
... A deja vu is usually a glitch in the Matrix"
"FreeBSD Core Developer Guy: A black cat went past us, and then another that looked just
FreeBSD Core Developer Girl: How much
like it, was it the same cat?
Theo de Raadt Version 2.0
Snowdog
Don't you all find it a bit odd that an open source project bars people from working on it? How can that be?
...and allegedly for the way he interacted with fellow developers. Excuse me, but programmers most certainly aren't the easiest bunch to get along with, especially the good ones - remember the article in Wired about Aspergers?
After all the "open source is for everyone" spouts, someone goes and gets banned from a project... weird...
(and yeah, I am a sufferer)
a bunch of bitchy whining children
;-)
I think that's a little unkind. Politics and ideology get in the way of many things. Someone that's a brilliant coder is of little use to a team if they are not prepared to listen to other people.
If I were a hardned cynic of course I would refer the reader to my signature...
Be nice to people on the way up. You will meet them again on your way down!
Um, Matt? There's a small problem... You forgot to put a cover sheet on your last TSP report, I'm afraid we're going to have to kick you off the development team.
Suffice to say, the ends do not justify the means.
I don't know how the core team manages its repositories, or what their submission policy is, but I would interpret this move as analogous to revoking MD's write access to cvs. I'm sure he's 'welcome' to continue to submit patches, just like any other schmoe. And of course, he's always free to fork..
So long, and thanks for all the Phish
FreeBSD is not Linux. They are two different things. I'm not really sure what the point of your comment is. "...barred from committing any changes to the FreeBSD kernel" means that he can't make changes to the official version on his own. He would have to send his changes to someone still on the team & have them approve it & add it. Just like the average joe programmer looking to help out.
... film at 11.
This is not about the users and they don't owe you anything. You don't have to use free software, you don't have to use freeBSD and the authors have no power over you at all. The code lives on, despite the folly of those who wrote it. Take it for what it's worth, contribute if you will.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
sucks pretty bad.
i don't understand these serial sites
isn't surfer's serials/serialbox enough?
i wonder why you post on Slashdot, why not shut up and code something ?
:)
err... people like to hear them selfes, by talking people can give there mind some rest and by talking crap they thought over and over again they get some small comment from someone that they then add to there idea and make it a little bit better and so it goes on until you need to talk again...
its life face it
Yes, freebsd buddies dont have any clue about solving team "compatibility". But it's easy, for sure. Just put all the problematic developers naked in a room with a crap whore to serve all of them and wait to see lots of bums being intrued. In the end, everyone will be happy and all the differences will disappear. It always works. Look at Linus Torwalds and Alan Cox, for instance.
Next time we hope you fare better. The game is open 24 hours a day, seven days a week.
Al Virus is really best at reading your code and then showing how incompetent *he* is. His criticisms rarely amount to more than "you didn't do it my way" when, in fact, his way is neither documented nor sane. If there's a single thing most responsible for holding Linux back from greatness, it's Al and his poorly documented race-ridden deadlock-prone contorted "API from Mars" excuse for a VFS layer.
First, remember that there is no magic bullet. There are always tradeoffs with anything. Linux has definate strong points (new hardware support usually hits linux first; there are more developers for linux). FreeBSD has fewer developers, and doesn't support the newest hardware as quickly - but the (FreeBSD) network stack is extremely solid, and the system design is very clean.
So, you have to evaluate your goals in these kinds of situations. Are you out to get the newest hardware and features, or are you looking for a clean design and good performance.
There is a reason many sites (like Yahoo, imdb, cr.yp.to) use Open/FreeBSD to run their servers.
If that's not one of your priorities, but you're still curious: I'd still take a look at FreeBSD; the overall design is quite pleasant to work with.
Also, many of the exploits produced are usually done on Linux, at least initially. This could buy you a little extra lead-time when something malicious is released. It's not security by obscurity, but it is a fringe benefit.
As always, if you're truly curious as to which OS would suit you best, you should put a little effort into it, and do some research yourself. I'm not saying you shouldn't use Linux, and I'm not saying you should use FreeBSD. FreeBSD is not for everyone. Linux is not for everyone. Do the research, decide for yourself, and next time - when you feel the urge to ask "why use *BSD?" -- you'll be able to at least discuss what you do or don't like about either. Otherwise, you end up contributing nothing to the discussion.
I was told that I could listen to the radio at a reasonable volume from nine to eleven...
It is a sad day when group love and touchy-feely wins out over technical excellence.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
This is wrong in so many ways, I don't know where to begin.
I do. Sounds to me like his ego to brain ratio was way, way too high. It's a consistent problem with many developers (not all, so don't even fucking think about modding this flamebait, flamers). Writing code is not necessarily easy, but you're not Jesus Christ or anything. I have yet to meet a developer that doesn't make mistakes. Ever.
- The word is a virus.
the word "it's" is the contraction of "it is" or "it has". The word "its" is the possessive form of the word "it".
Do you care enough about 2nd grade grammar to ever master such essentials of the language? Unless and until you do your attempts to communicate with us will always reveal that you are lazy or ignorant, or perhaps, both.
"Badges? We don't need no stinkin' badges." when Bogie asked to see their badges when they claimed they were the Federalies.
Can you name that movie?
Not that I'd expect the clueless slashidiots to understand (too busy trying to get that +5 Funny rating), but Matt is a VERY good coder.
Matt was one of the brighter lights in the former Amiga community. He had an excellent and cheap development environment, and I was more than happy to support his efforts. DCC was an excellent compiler.
Of course that's the whole BSD movement, 2 developers get their panties in a bunch and instead of either one of them being big enough to compromise they fork. You can't tell me that the OpenBSD folks aren't doing things that all BSDs benefit from, same for FreeBSD and their amazing accomplishments. FreeBSD has been strong so far but it's sad to see them drop to that same level.
Anyhow, with multitasking read/write I/O, the disk scheduling marks the commit bit in buffer pages to signal that they need to be written back to disk. And, commit has the dual meaning with CVS. Hence, it's funny.
Do you even lift?
These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.
then the FreeBSD project isn't worth keeping around.
If they let this project revolve around one guy then the project was doomed from the beginning.
Actually this is a good test of FreeBSD, if it survives its because its bigger then this one guy, which is the way projects should be.
Just as 5.0 was coming out and there seemed to be this general quietness about freedom and the GPL and RMS bashing seemed to be at an acceptable high point the good lads at FreeBSD go and remind us all again what open and freedom is all about.
What does this have to do with GPL or its attitude? Linus could just as easily bar kernel patch submission from some individual who he thought was causing problems.
This problem individual could just as easily keep on running with his own special kernel, with all these swell changes Linux kept rejecting. Same goes for FreeBSD- you can get the source, and this guy, or anyone, could keep on writing new code, patching their setup and giving the away the code.
Just because a project is GPL doesn't mean that it'll take code from anyone, or have a CVS server to which anyone could commit. From where would you get this silly idea?
Working toward a usable PDA environment in the spirit of Newton OS: Dynapad
Considering that you know nothing about the specifics invovled, what makes you think you're in any position to judge what Core did? This is their call to make, and they made it. Don't like it? Tough shit!
Dinivin
My oh my, the "BSD is dying" Linux zealots appear to be going for another Tet offensive today. ..or Bostic ..or Hubbard ..or McKusick... or Henning Kamph... or Thorpe...) is the sole reason for BSD's successes. There is the saying "Too many cooks spoil the broth", and the variety of BSD projects seem to think along those lines (by contrast, just how many journaling file systems does Linux need?), but the departure of one big contributor often can open up needed space for a new one. Nevertheless, the BSD community is not a cult of personality anymore than it is "amateur hour".
People who read the email discussions between Dillon and the rest of the developers could tell that Dillon was having a problem keeping his emotions under control, and he got taken to the woodshed more than once for that reason. It's regrettable that this had to happen, given his talents, but BSD goes on without him, as it has in times past. Despite glowing Slashdot stories to the contrary, Dillon was never the "lead developer" and certainly not the only programming talent in the group any more that Linus Torvalds is sole reason for Linux's continued existence or Bill Joy (or McKusick.. or Jolitz
BTW, the BSD's are a heck of a lot more than a "kernel". Only a Linux idiot would make that mistake. Also Mr. Dodson is perfectly welcome to fork off his own BSD --just as soon as he gets bored with "lurking", gets off his duff, and figures out how to install NetBSD.
I never thought much about the politics of open source, but I guess it exists. Reminds me of when Apple threw out Steve Jobs.
I've read some hella good flames and wars on the linux kernel dev list, I never recall someone being invited not to take part though. Al Viro is especially good and reading your code and then telling you exactly how incompentent your are.
If this guy is the master hacker everyone makes him to be, this isn't enough explanation. Shouldn't the users have some say? Perhaps the mistreated developers should move on to other projects or maybe grow into adults and learn to take the heat, it's just software, it's not like you should be taking the flames seriously.
Perhaps you need a little history lesson. Go read up on how OpenBSD started.
Yes, it does show exactly what open and freedom is all about.
Sorry, is "you must give commit privileges to everyone regardless of how much of a disruptive nuisance they are" what "open" is all about, or is that "freedom"?
What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
I think that was the problem. A close second might have been
InfuckingCredibly Massive Level of Arrogance Syndrome.
The only difference between the bitchy whining children in open source development and the bitchy whining children in closed source development is that the latter have signed NDAs that keep the pissing contests out of the public spotlight.
Oh, that's good. You disagree, then give a 2 sentence explanation. What are you, part of FreeBSD-core?
I'm one individual that is damn abrasive. And oversensitive at times. And I've grown a hell of a lot in how to deal with people because of the flamewars as well as the cooling off periods. Usually, in frank discussions that can get heated and overblown, what people say is true or revealing, and those considerations go further than polite civility. Sometimes not right then, but sometimes later.
When those people meet me in real life, they are utterly surprised how nice I am in person. Too nice to some. Some never learn to accept it. Hell, the one guy still always sits on the other side of the table furthest from me but sends me Christmas cards. And it's not a Jekyll-Hyde act, it's just that I say what I think and try to do so with honest, and if I'm mad, well, you're going to find out I am and why.
And yes, I've been removed from two organizations before for my opiniated views. And there is nothing more sad and satisfying than watching that organization just go down the tubes or struggle mightedly, betray their own claims, because you no longer contribute. I hate anything tanking, but so be it. iow, your oh-so-necessary "ends" are gone--the organization no longer exists. Who cares about the means then?
Not going to happen to FreeBSD, they'll fizzle for a bit and then probably find someone else, but sometimes your impolite, emotionally-pushy, hostile "means" you so despise are truer than your politicking, ass-kissing BS.
- Matt Dillon was never a "core developer". The FreeBSD project doesn't use that term, but it looks like a reference to the core team. Matt has never been a member of the core team.
- Matt has done some very good work over the years. His contribution to FreeBSD release 4 was invaluable, but it would be wrong to suggest that he single-handedly made the difference. Commit statistics on the orginal list show that he has not been very active over the last 12 months.
- I was not aware of his involvement with Linux VM. Nothing we have done will change this, though.
- The FreeBSD core team has informed the development community in detail about the reasons for Matt's removal. We don't think it's appropriate, nor fair to Matt, to wash dirty linen in public.
- Matt has very little influence on the future of the FreeBSD kernel. That work which he has done over the last two years or so was mainly maintenance.
It's always sad to have to make these decisions. It's even more difficult to defend them when our hands are tied behind our backs.Hi. I'm Malda. Rob Malda.
I wish our political system was totalitarian and not democratic. In fact, I am a National Socialist and proud of it. Unfortunately, I can't post my name because of the backlash that is sure to follow.
Sieg Heil. Heil Hitler.
For the rest of us who wonders what goes on inside the ivory towers...
THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
"I'm one individual that is damn abrasive. And oversensitive at times. And I've grown a hell of a lot in how to deal with people because of the flamewars as well as the cooling off periods."
Grown so great, indeed, that your given name is not worthy enough to dignify your comments, Mr. Coward.
Ernest Tomlinson.
P.S. If you have to tell people how mature you are, you've probably got some way to go before you get there.
So, in short, you're a dick.
HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHA +5 FUNNY !!!!!!!!!!! mod parent up funny!
I am not that familiar with the *BSDs, so I didn't realize that they don't all use the same kernel. I tried FreeBSD once, there were some nitpicky things I did not like. I've yet to try Net or Open BSD.
No, I'm very sorry, but that is not funny.
Core are not the only ones allowed to commit. They are simply the democratically elected body of committers who preside over the welfare of the project.
Who elects core developers?
Who decides if someone is elegible to be a core developer?
If core developers are elected democratically, why was it necessary to throw out Matt Dillon explicitly instead of just explaining the situation to the electors? Aren't electors trusted to do the (apparently) reasonable thing and unelect him?
-- Repeat with me: "There is no right to profits".
You must work the the US governemnt.
"smart and friendly".
Man, I wish we could get that out in the public perception, "Hey man, could you be a little bit more *friendly*."
My job would be a hell of a lot easier, that's for sure.
I didn't know Krushchev was gay.
Don't know, but I saw Brezhnev kissing Honecker.
__
Men with no respect for life must never be allowed to control the ultimate instruments of death.
GW Bu
Oh yes, and that closed source developers often deliver product.
That's true to a degree. Closed source has the benefit of having a manager that can arbitrate these sorts of fights. Or decide in favor of one side or another.
:)
Open projects who have a decided leader (Linux w/ Linus for instance) can also work this way, though I doubt Linus wants to arbitrate every argument
How so? Obviously, while not commenting directly on this subject, you could still say that just throwing someone off a project for what amounts to a difference in opinion and manner of dealing with those differences is more wrong.
The end (gaining more civility in kernel discussions???) does not justify the means (kicking someone out). On that you are right.
The other difference is its frequently difficult to remove complete idiots from commercial projects without falling foul of labour laws.
:(
Promoting them to where they can't interfere is less satisfying than sacking the timewasters
Apples, oranges.
Matt Dillon is not banned from any mailing lists. He's only been removed as a "committer". In linux there's only one "committer", Linus himself. Others send patches, to the mailing list or to their pet maintainer upstream. Matt can still do both with FreeBSD, or simply use the send-pr command. What he can't do now is make changes directly to the source tree.
this general quietness about freedom and the GPL and RMS bashing seemed to be at an acceptable high point the good lads at FreeBSD go and remind us all again what open and freedom is all about.
So, while one person is kicked out of the community for narrow minded and adolescent behavior, you present the Linux community as an example for being able to tolerate RMS?
Fair enough. However, with Debian's patent intollerant behaviour, Alan Cox's famous "Thank you for joining this discussion on (whatever change to the kernel was being advocated) I've now put you all on my kill list," I don't think you have much hole GNU/ground to stand on to make a claim that they haven't shown people the door on occasion.
Besides, since this is all about software freedom, at least this person has the option to do whatever he wants with the code still. He just can't call it "FreeBSD" which is a fair thing. Just ask Theo.
--------------------
OnRoad: It gets you there and back again.
I'm looking at a 500k kernel (compressed) and a crunchgen'd set of binaries taht fit onto an 8MB flash with networking, a shell and far too many other things to really be considered embedded (stuff I need for other reasons). With trimming, I'm sure we could get it down to 4MB for truly embedded use.
Of course, these guys do embedded systems and own a respectable BSD when they bought BSDI. Of course, we can't figure out why they bought BSDi since their first year appeared to focus on pissing off existing customers when FreeBSD, NetBSD and OpenBSD were as good as or better than BSDi in many respects. At least if I want mediocre support, I can get it for free :)
And there are other folks in the free world doing embedded work too.
The bonus is that we don't have to put up with RMS yammering all the time. I watched and waited for HURD forever and just presumed that Emacs would get boot code. He can call that GNU/HURD all he wants. I still wish Linus has made the arbitrary choice of using the BSD-lite userland utils instead. At least the CSRG aren't as strident.
Bruce Perens, why are you posting anonymous? Forget your password?
Matt, meet Theo, Theo, meet Matt.
You have to look at this with a sense of irony.
"It's always sad to have to make these decisions. It's even more difficult to defend them when our hands are tied behind our backs. "
Imagine that! They're into BSD and all tied up! Get it? Get it?
(Isn't FreeBSD an oxymoron?)
It is easier to build strong children than to repair broken men. -Frederick Douglass
It is official; Netcraft confirms: *BSD is dying
One more crippling bombshell hit the already beleaguered *BSD community when IDC confirmed that *BSD market share has dropped yet again, now down to less than a fraction of 1 percent of all servers. Coming on the heels of a recent Netcraft survey which plainly states that *BSD has lost more market share, this news serves to reinforce what we've known all along. *BSD is collapsing in complete disarray, as fittingly exemplified by failing dead last in the recent Sys Admin comprehensive networking test.
You don't need to be a Kreskin to predict *BSD's future. The hand writing is on the wall: *BSD faces a bleak future. In fact there won't be any future at all for *BSD because *BSD is dying. Things are looking very bad for *BSD. As many of us are already aware, *BSD continues to lose market share. Red ink flows like a river of blood.
FreeBSD is the most endangered of them all, having lost 93% of its core developers. The sudden and unpleasant departures of long time FreeBSD developers Jordan Hubbard, Mike Dillon, and Mike Smith only serve to underscore the point more clearly. There can no longer be any doubt: FreeBSD is dying.
Let's keep to the facts and look at the numbers.
OpenBSD leader Theo states that there are 7000 users of OpenBSD. How many users of NetBSD are there? Let's see. The number of OpenBSD versus NetBSD posts on Usenet is roughly in ratio of 5 to 1. Therefore there are about 7000/5 = 1400 NetBSD users. BSD/OS posts on Usenet are about half of the volume of NetBSD posts. Therefore there are about 700 users of BSD/OS. A recent article put FreeBSD at about 80 percent of the *BSD market. Therefore there are (7000+1400+700)*4 = 36400 FreeBSD users. This is consistent with the number of FreeBSD Usenet posts.
Due to the troubles of Walnut Creek, abysmal sales and so on, FreeBSD went out of business and was taken over by BSDI who sell another troubled OS. Now BSDI is also dead, its corpse turned over to yet another charnel house.
All major surveys show that *BSD has steadily declined in market share. *BSD is very sick and its long term survival prospects are very dim. If *BSD is to survive at all it will be among OS dilettante dabblers. *BSD continues to decay. Nothing short of a miracle could save it at this point in time. For all practical purposes, *BSD is dead.
Fact: *BSD is dying
OpenBSD also focussed hard on security through auditing the code.
I guess this is redundant to the other BSDs. But wait! Reading the kernel commits (see, we use CVS in bsd-land), I can see that FreeBSD has taken (thank you Mr Leffler) many of the crypto kernel and userland utils into FreeBSD from OpenBSD. And OpenBSD just recently sync'd up a bunch of their USB utils with NetBSDs.
So are they doing redundant work or keeping up a healthy but friendly competition? Many successfull companies will have a couple groups doing similar things - keeps the edge....
So FreeBSD code appears in Net and OpenBSD, NetBSD coders work appears in Open and FreeBSD, etc, etc. They share with each other to the benefit of everyone.
As a bonus, it's easy to build from source. /usr/ports/ (pkgsrc on netbsd) lets me just (cd /usr/ports/mail/mutt;make install) and built mutt FROM THE SOURCE for my system.
- for that. So different kernels? Yeah. Different idea's being explored. The best ones trickle into the other kernels. We end up with good VMs (remember the Linux VM battles?), we end up with Solid SMP, advanced file systems (thank you Kirk), we end up with computer science.No games of "find the RPM" and trust like hell that the person who built that mutt rpm isn't evil. And that they had the same glibc that I had. And they used the options I wanted (
Say, I found an annoying, non-security bug in one of the convoluted (non fsf) programs that came with my Linux distro. I fixed it. Where to I send in a fix that will end up in all 30 linux distros by the next year?
Oh, right. And there is no "cvs.linux.org" to contain all the patches. There is no strong peer auditing to keep craps from floating upon the water of the distros. The kernel control is pretty admirable, but after that....
At least it ain't Windows and the good linux hackers often graduate up to BSD with useful skills.
"Shouldn't the users have some say?" Well, shouldn't the people who have to work with the guy have some say, too?
So if you feel mistreated and you are in the majority of a special small community, you're automatically right?
This is wrong in so many ways, I don't know where to begin.
Except to say, "Oh, I'm a victim too! Pick me! I want special treatment!" (jumps up and down).
Frankly, there's a LOT to be said for knowing the facts here. Until that is known, such statements as "[p]erhaps the mistreated developers should move on..." is a possibly entirely valid statement. We do NOT know if they were acting with due consideration or simply a bunch of oversensitive types.
(Note, this is in the coding, online realm. People simply *are* more frank, whether you like it or not--call it culture, call it isolation, but it's true. If a person is an ass online, fine, that's a different realm, but if he's an ass in real life, it's a different matter. Civility has different purposes in meatspace than so-called cyberspace.)
(Note2 that oversensitivity in one community is not the same as in another. If I was in a suicide prevention group, you adapt to the community reasonably. If you are in a coding community behind closed doors, which -core is, I would expect abrasive and near hostile debate, even insults and threats in the flame wars, to ensue--not that I like it, but maybe I surely understand fervor and conviction in the CODING world (not real world necessarily) better than trepidation.)
if its so "frustrating", then tell us what happened and that will be the end of it.
But you won't, so STFU.
That's exactly what it is. He can continue to submit changes, just not commit them himself.
Fair enough. However, with Debian's patent intollerant behaviour,
From my understanding of the Debian policy on patents this is to protect the Debian project from legal liablity. It has nothing to do with excluding anyone.
Alan Cox's famous "Thank you for joining this discussion on (whatever change to the kernel was being advocated) I've now put you all on my kill list," I don't think you have much hole GNU/ground to stand on to make a claim that they haven't shown people the door on occasion.
This was simply a case of Alan not choosing to deal with certain people anymore. This was not the key Linux kernel developers deciding that none of them would deal with these people anymore. If anyone Alan was ignoring wanted to contribute there are other channels and other people who are as key to the Linux kernel as Alan is.
Frankly this whole mess really isn't an example of GNU vs. BSD licenses but different approaches to structuring an open source development project. Some projects have a rather insular team of developers who communicate mostly out of public view and only occasional take community patches or throw a release over the wall. Some projects get contributions from all over the place and communicate almost entirely in the open. Each approach has advantages and disadvatages.
Happy Fun Ball is for external use only.
(Humor! Take it as a joke)
It seems to have started when Dillon made a clever hack and people got arguing over API problems:
...
...
The problem
The solution
NOT another solution
The flamewar starts..
and continues.
My main problem i have with BSD is the "rip-me-of-and-piss-on-me" license. How do the BSD license stop MS from taking code, alter it enough to almost work with the original and keep the changes secret? Under the DMCA they could even make it illegal for *BSD to reverse engineer their own code.
Its a bit to easy to screw *BSD for me to support it. Technically its a hit but i cant sign the license, its selfdestructing in a way IMHO.
HTTP/1.1 400
That was nicely put, and while not a lie, puts things in the best possible light for the core team.
Look, I don't know a damned thing about it but from reading your post, I can' tell you're not telling the completely truth.
How many distinct BSD based operating systems are there (just open source, for this discussion, commercial proprietary ventures don't count)?
OK, now how many distinct Linux based operating systems are there?
I don't think forking has been a valid argument for *years*, if it ever was.
-- The world is watching America, and America is watching TV.
One more crippling bombshell hit the already beleaguered *BSD community when IDC confirmed that *BSD market share has dropped yet again, now down to less than a fraction of 1 percent of all servers. Coming on the heels of a recent Netcraft survey which plainly states that *BSD has lost more market share, this news serves to reinforce what we've known all along. *BSD is collapsing in complete disarray, as fittingly exemplified by failing dead last in the recent Sys Admin comprehensive networking test.
You don't need to be a Kreskin to predict *BSD's future. The hand writing is on the wall: *BSD faces a bleak future. In fact there won't be any future at all for *BSD because *BSD is dying. Things are looking very bad for *BSD. As many of us are already aware, *BSD continues to lose market share. Red ink flows like a river of blood.
FreeBSD is the most endangered of them all, having lost 93% of its core developers. The sudden and unpleasant departures of long time FreeBSD developers Jordan Hubbard and Mike Smith only serve to underscore the point more clearly. There can no longer be any doubt: FreeBSD is dying.
Let's keep to the facts and look at the numbers.
OpenBSD leader Theo states that there are 7000 users of OpenBSD. How many users of NetBSD are there? Let's see. The number of OpenBSD versus NetBSD posts on Usenet is roughly in ratio of 5 to 1. Therefore there are about 7000/5 = 1400 NetBSD users. BSD/OS posts on Usenet are about half of the volume of NetBSD posts. Therefore there are about 700 users of BSD/OS. A recent article put FreeBSD at about 80 percent of the *BSD market. Therefore there are (7000+1400+700)*4 = 36400 FreeBSD users. This is consistent with the number of FreeBSD Usenet posts.
Due to the troubles of Walnut Creek, abysmal sales and so on, FreeBSD went out of business and was taken over by BSDI who sell another troubled OS. Now BSDI is also dead, its corpse turned over to yet another charnel house.
All major surveys show that *BSD has steadily declined in market share. *BSD is extremely sick and its long term survival prospects are very dim. If *BSD is to survive at all it will be among OS dilettante dabblers. *BSD continues to decay. Nothing short of a miracle could save it at this point in time. For all practical purposes, *BSD is dead.
Fact: *BSD is dying
Which could be the subject of an interesting discussion. Sadly, this is Slashdot.
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
While I was suffering from depression I know I was definitely unable to treat many of my fellow developers with the civility and respect that they deserved. At the time I felt like everyone was making such horrible mistakes and I was the only one that could save them but nobody would listen to me.
My fellow developers obviously felt differently. I was fired.
I'm not about to make a diagnosis based on such little evidence, but I find it quite likely that Matt just needs a bit of help.
What's "charnel house" ?
Indeed, if you bother to read the archive further and examine some of Matt's posts, it's pretty clear he's somewhat of a snotty ass that makes progress difficult. Look at the whole argument over ipfw and I think it's pretty clear that there are many good reasons to not have accepted his hack, yet he persists with "my way or the highway". Were I a member of the development team, I think I'd be relived...
He can always go work for OpenBSD, I'm sure him and Theo would get along fine...
FreeBSD is NOT GPL'd people! It is still free to fork, but it has a BSD license. Sorry, but this inaccurary highly annoys me. Score: -1, Anti-GPL
Evidently you don't read Usenet much.
^_^
THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
On the other hand, Matt is not, and never has been, indispensible to the FreeBSD project. His biggest contribution probably has been cultural more than anything else -- he was working at UCB back in the "real" BSD days and knows how "it spozed to be". I suspect that doesn't make him popular with some of the (relative) newbies who want to add lots of features and stuff -- Matt's code has always been stripped down, clean, and fast as hell (if not always the most elegant or user-friendly code in the world). If the FreeBSD folks got tired of him carping about "the BSD Way", their loss... but it's not going to cripple FreeBSD by any means.
-E
Send mail here if you want to reach me.
Of course that's the whole BSD movement, 2 developers get their panties in a bunch and instead of either one of them being big enough to compromise they fork.
In Soviet Russia, the BSD Daemon forks you!
If Matt reads this message, I hope he moves over into Linux Land. We're more tolerant of abrasive, opinionated people there -- as long as they're right.
-E
Send mail here if you want to reach me.
First, read the post to which I replied. Then go read what I said. While I didn't feel the need to go out and point at it, I was discussing the point the original author made- GPL software (like the Linux kernel) vs. non-GPL stuff like FreeBSD. He said that this was a reminder of the non-Freeness of FreeBSD. It's not. This could happen on a GPL project. Read it slowly if need be.
Working toward a usable PDA environment in the spirit of Newton OS: Dynapad
Matt can definitely be abrasive in the face of idiocy. That's also why I'd have him on my team in a New York minute. I'm not interested in working with idiots, and I'm not interested in somebody massaging my widdle ego when I'm wrong. If I'm being an idiot, I want to know it. Too bad too many FreeBSD developers would rather have overinflated egos than good software.
-E
Send mail here if you want to reach me.
(Just remembering chewing through some code in his editor once, and whining to Matt about the fact that there was maybe five comments in a 500 line "C" source file, his response was something along the lines of "it's too obvious to need comments"... uhm, okay :-).
-E
Send mail here if you want to reach me.
(Sorry, you had to be around 15 years ago to get the joke... back when the typical Amiga developer was outfitted with a full suite of Matt's software, all of whose name started with a "D" for "Dillon", e.g. "DUUCP" or "DCRON" or "DICE").
Send mail here if you want to reach me.
From my understanding of the Debian policy on patents this is to protect the Debian project from legal liablity
Yeah thats one way to read the sentance "with Debian's patent intollerant behaviour" but not the way I meant it. In this sence patent just means a set way of doing things, as in way of doing things is stuck in intollerant mode.
This was simply a case of Alan not choosing to deal with certain people anymore.
It was a great maneuver, I liked it. I laughed, I cried, I bought the extended DVD. But it shows that kernel developers can give people the baBOOTski just as fast. I see nothing wrong with it myself, but let me be specific, I do see a problem with the previous posters inference that it does not happen in linux or any other GPL development.
Its not that you don't understand this, becuase you said... " isn't an example of GNU vs. BSD licenses but different approaches to structuring an open source development project."
Its just that I can't let you pin my comments as part of a BSD vs GPL flamewar. They simply are not.
-------------------
OnRoad: It gets you there and back again.
-E
Send mail here if you want to reach me.
Damn, I'm glad I never got into the FreeBSD community!
-E
Send mail here if you want to reach me.
You wrote, 'When it comes to Free software, isn't "the development community" the same as "the public"?'
The two are not the same. I am a consumer of FreeBSD, by virtue of having a Virtual BSD Server from aplus.net. My use of that operating system in no way entitles me to know what transpires between the developers of that OS.
If I want to know the nitty gritty details of OS development, then I need to subscribe to the general mailing lists, read the code, and submit my own work.
Since I'm not prepared to do the above - I am quite happy to be a mere consumer in this case - I don't have any objection to people saying "this is a private matter, it doesn't concern you."
That the source code is available for your perusal is completely unrelated to the behavioral dynamics which govern the production of that code.
I don't know what it is about the FreeBSD community, but I've run into that "Kumbaya" attitude too. I managed to get my fixes into the FreeBSD kernel -- barely -- then fled back to LinuxLand where you don't have to worship the developers in order to discuss idiocy. I remember one time a FreeBSD developer actually told me that he wasn't going to accept any more email from me because I used a variable name he didn't like and me and David Miller ought to get some quaaludes (true, it wasn't a very flattering variable name, it was something like "dumb_stupid_nonsense" as the name of a variable to catch an idiotic condition, but what the hey does that have to do with technical merit?!). I'd much rather face off with David Miller about something than with the BSD guys. The BSD guys seem to have easily-bruised egos and you gotta strok'em like a Harvard MBA to get them to listen to anything.
-E
Send mail here if you want to reach me.
try working for eBay..........
Hold up, wait a minute, let me put some pimpin in it
It isn't even as bad as that. Lots of developers have problems getting along, Matt was by no mean worse than others.
What he did was go ahead and commit things that other developers disagreed with, changing things affecting parts of the system other people were responsible for, without their approval. More than once.
And he wasn't a core team member, just a active developer with commit privileges.
alt.religion.emacs ....
Happy Fun Ball is for external use only.
Depends on what you call a fork.
There are many Linux distributions and only 3 opensource BSD distributions.
On the other hand there is one main Linux kernel and 3 open source BSD kernels.
Happy Fun Ball is for external use only.
He writes:
"If/when Luigi fixes the ABI problems with IPFW, we can remove this 'hack'. Until then, I do not consider the hackiness nature of the patch sufficient reason to not put it in."
I never saw one brilliant remark from this guy and by reading his interviews and his design documents I could only conclude that Mr Dillon was so incredibly blind and biased towards "there is only one solution to all problems and that's my solution". This remark quoted above is the most utterly stupid thing you can do as a developer, because it proves that the no.1 reason why software sux so much most of the time so true:
Nothing lasts that long as a temporary solution.
Think about it. When was the last time you hacked something in "just to patch this problem for now, I'll fix it later", while you never fixed it properly? The 'solution' Mr. Dillon wants to commit into the tree is a temp-solution. You shouldn't commit temporary CRUD into a development tree. Period.
Never underestimate the relief of true separation of Religion and State.
By your logic of desktop penetration, Windows would beat everything 'hands down'. Does market penetration really an OS make? I think not. And do you REALLY think that Apple would port Aqua to a free OS? Are you insane? What would sell Apples then? Wow. You sound really smart for how slow you are.
There are two types of "female nerds", ones who are truly interested in geeky stuff and just happen not to have a penis, and ones like you, without a clue, strutting about knowing you'll get attention from bespectacled boys brimming with testosterone, 'kerchief in one hand and sticky mouse in the other.
You.. FAIL.. it.. miserably.
Ow!
now that would make a good topic for a /. poll
I bet far more than 1% of /.ers contribute to some OSS, or have done at some stage.
I used to have a better sig than this, but I got tired of it
FreeBSD's main use is as a hobby OS. Before you flame me, yes there are a few
examples of its use in industry. However, its primary niche is that of a hobby OS.
Your site traffic will be skewed towards your target demographic.
stats here show
w98 : 35.08
nt4 : 28.09
xp : 14.67
interactive TV : 7.04
w32 unspecified : 5.42
w2k : 2.5
w95 : 1.94
mac : 1.79
linux : 0.24
winME : 0.03
weird (phones,spiders etc) : 3.22
(2m hits/day)
Perhaps the mistreated developers should move on to other projects
You can always make a new version of BSD e.g. Hax0rBSD.
It might be on 5 times as many desktops of the desktops that visit your source, but that's about it. Unless you believe every desktop, business, foreign, modem hookups, 2400 baud rate (yeah, they're out there folks, foreign), businesses that bar internet access during the day, etc., all visit your source to get logged.
Come back in a year and enlighten us on gnu/linux-mac/bsd like operating system desktop market share.
btw, does your web logs also reflect desktop adoption rate between the gnu/linux os and the mac/bsd-like os?
Have you informed the survey companies of your superior method of determining all desktop usage in all situations across the board? They sell their reports for thousands of dollars. Maybe you should start issuing your own reports?
---->This coming from someone who will be using gnu/linux (already a heavy user) and freebsd and openbsd by the end of the year for multiple projects.
And have his patches disappear into the void of the pr system, where most patches never get out.
"What's the point of going abroad, if you're just another tourist..."
its a rough way to guestumate, and for what i do (mainly web development) good enuff. adoption rates, well, it ain't that specific, but not important either. winblows is still the guerilla, and the most important stat is usually which version of IE are the m$ Lusers hittin me with.
i have a red hat web server, imac, tibook (both OS X 10.2.3), powerbook 1400 (mac os 8), 333 mhz red hat box and a NeXT cube. guess you could say i use a little different stuff. that's not to mention the winbox i'm fixin up for a friend of mine right now
"You never want a serious crisis to go to waste." - Rahm Emanuel
Fact: The best programmers typically have a low tolerance for idiocy, and if you want the best programmers on your team, listening is a better solution than firing them. Poor social skills? Probably. Gets a helluva lot of productivity out of these people? You betcha.
-E
Send mail here if you want to reach me.
You are making statements to the effect of bsd beating the pants off gnu/linux, and tre cowardly is your response to what I point out?
Adoption rates aren't important to bsd beating the pants off gnu/linux?
Can you name which country outside the US has announced that bsd or mac will be replacing windows? Or which local government body? Or which school?
I thought so.
Every announcement coming out of foreign goverments (peru, france, germany, australia, spain, china, is it necessary to go on?) concerning adoption of open source software has been...bsd?...mac?...or...?...what was it again?...gnu/linux.
What is the operating system/desktop system that is breaking into schools and local goverments on wide basis? bsd?...mac?...or...?...what was it again?...gnu/linux.
While bsd may have technically superior underpinnings (until recently or even currently), and imo has a better license, it cannot be disputed that gnu/linux has such a huge momentum, such huge talk, such huge buildup, that it is going to steamroll anything in its path, including bsd and microsoft.
Yes, microsoft will be around a long time. But its stock price and earnings are going to be decimated within the next two to three years, probably sooner. Their filing with the sec finally admits as much. The analysts will no longer be able to deny it, and neither will the schill survey companies paid off by microsoft be able to cover it up much longer with their fabricated tco studies.
Yes, bsd will be around for a long time as well. Thanks to the developers behind it. But they may not be around as long as they thing they will. Their attitude sucks. And is reflected in their supporters.
gnu/linux has a huge momentum behind it for one reason. The gpl. As much as it is hated, it is what has brought gnu/linux to the forefront today, and it is the david that will topple the goliath. There is absolutely no way around it. Even with the multi-hundred million dollar payoff bill attempted in India, Indian developers are still going with gnu/linux. Other developers worldwide are going with bsd?...mac?...gnu/linux. gnu/linux may not be as technically superior to bsd (or it may be already with the 2.5 kernel, or close to getting there) but it is where the action is when it comes to developers, when it comes to major company support, when it comes to foreign government support, when it comes to user support, when it comes to running on big iron for the future, when it comes to just about any measure.
With gnu/linux being ported to big iron, which companies will be using bsd to develop for big iron?
With gnu/linux being ported first for Itanium and Opteron, which companies are going to drag bsd to the table?
I saw an article in one of the tech school publications locally that interviewed a company recruiter. When they were discussed what technical courses of study were important to his company, and what his company was using (it was one of the fortune 100 companies in technology) he responded that it was linux (gnu/linux is more accurate). Why? According to him, it didn't matter anymore, that what the college graduates going into tech knew was linux. He didn't say mac. He didn't say bsd. He said linux. (I think it was Computer Shopper of about two or three weeks ago, picked up from local library lobby or bank lobby).
Don't you get it yet?
Adoption rate doesn't matter? It makes all the difference in the world. Let's see where mac/bsd is in a year, and where gnu/linux is. And in two years.
Remember these threads when the roof caves in on microsoft. And then when it caves in on apple. Unless apple goes first. bsd will be there. In the same spot its always been.
IDC expects that Linux will become the No. 2 desktop OS in the next year or two, surpassing the Mac OS, and will continue to hold this rank for the remainder of the company's five-year forecast.
Adoption rate
The truth hurts.
Read this, and wake up and face inevitability.
Truth hurts, don't it?
I thought it had to do with the bad code he was submitting while high on mushrooms.
Just wild speculation.
One more crippling bombshell hit the already beleaguered *BSD community when IDC confirmed that *BSD market share has dropped yet again, now down to less than a fraction of 1 percent of all servers. Coming on the heels of a recent Netcraft survey which plainly states that *BSD has lost more market share, this news serves to reinforce what we've known all along. *BSD is collapsing in complete disarray, as fittingly exemplified by failing dead last in the recent Sys Admin comprehensive networking test.
You don't need to be a Kreskin to predict *BSD's future. The hand writing is on the wall: *BSD faces a bleak future. In fact there won't be any future at all for *BSD because *BSD is dying. Things are looking very bad for *BSD. As many of us are already aware, *BSD continues to lose market share. Red ink flows like a river of blood.
FreeBSD is the most endangered of them all, having lost 93% of its core developers. The sudden and unpleasant departures of long time FreeBSD developers Jordan Hubbard and Mike Smith only serve to underscore the point more clearly. There can no longer be any doubt: FreeBSD is dying.
Let's keep to the facts and look at the numbers.
OpenBSD leader Theo states that there are 7000 users of OpenBSD. How many users of NetBSD are there? Let's see. The number of OpenBSD versus NetBSD posts on Usenet is roughly in ratio of 5 to 1. Therefore there are about 7000/5 = 1400 NetBSD users. BSD/OS posts on Usenet are about half of the volume of NetBSD posts. Therefore there are about 700 users of BSD/OS. A recent article put FreeBSD at about 80 percent of the *BSD market. Therefore there are (7000+1400+700)*4 = 36400 FreeBSD users. This is consistent with the number of FreeBSD Usenet posts.
Due to the troubles of Walnut Creek, abysmal sales and so on, FreeBSD went out of business and was taken over by BSDI who sell another troubled OS. Now BSDI is also dead, its corpse turned over to yet another charnel house.
All major surveys show that *BSD has steadily declined in market share. *BSD is very sick and its long term survival prospects are very unlikely. If *BSD is to survive at all it will be among OS dilettante dabblers. *BSD continues to decay. Nothing short of a miracle could save it at this point in time. For all practical purposes, *BSD is dead.
Fact: *BSD is dying
In other words, he's been "demoted" to the same level that everyone but Linus is at in the Linux world. Except that he's still better off than Linux submitters, because his patches will automatically go into a public bug-reporting system and can be committed by any of hundreds of committers, not just one. But of course the Linux people will keep going on about how "open" Linux development is and how "closed" FreeBSD development is.
At least with Linux you know what you get. The code, as well as the intentions of the developers and the direction they are heading in. Nothing is secret. Everything is open. There are no closed lists, and everybody, user or developer, has a right to know. Anybody that wants to contribute can. You don't have to worry about pissing off some high priests who kick you out (excommunicate you). If Linus won't take your patches. Send them to the other people who maintain trees. If one them takes your patch and its any good, it will find its way back to Linus and the official kernel.
No wonder there are far more people willing to work on Linux than on FreeBSD.
tre cowardly just refers to the fact that you're posting anonymously.
"You never want a serious crisis to go to waste." - Rahm Emanuel
I agree with this wholeheartedly.
As a support person, I'd say one of the biggest challenges facing any project is when there's a developer who has too much of their ego in the code - and does not tolerate any criticism of it.
In cases like this, the day-to-day business of making the customer happy becomes a political minefield - and ultimately what you want to do is just give the developer's phone number to the customer. Which would ultimately result in the loss of the customer.
My advice to any developer: learn to recognise when you have too much emotion invested in your code, and if so, bail. Immediately. Be the code's own worst critic.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
Exactly my point! At least someone has the intelligence to see that point (however poorly made), rather than figure that I am claiming FreeBSD is GPL simply because I use both of those words in the same post. :)
Working toward a usable PDA environment in the spirit of Newton OS: Dynapad
I want team players, as cliched as it sounds.
Somebody that has low tolerance for idiocy and that shows it behaving like a prima dona has no place in any self respecting, productive, team producing software.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
In an OS project? Well, let me check wiuth their marketing people just to make sure...
O yes, can you tell us who do you work for? You know, I don't like buggy software...
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
XP ( Extreme Programming) encourages "Refactor Mercilessly" which is what you suggest.
Graham
Coffee | nose > keyboard.
I do agree the various methods of structuring, and administrating an open source project and the relative plusses and minuses of the various approaches would make a facinating disscussion. However the likelyhood of that disscussion happening on Slashdot are slim to none.
Happy Fun Ball is for external use only.
Writing code is a very personal affair. It is like writing a book, personal to to your exact style. I could see my code getting ripped apart and me getting personally offended by it, but it depends on how it is critized and by who it is critized.