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Cashless Society
roomisigloomis writes "France has released "en masse" a new card to replace money. No private information is stored on the card and anybody can use it. Just like cash: you lose it and someone else uses it. Do you think we could be nearing the end of life of paper money?"
In Soviet Russia Money Cards You
just cos it's a card doesn't mean it's not cash! if it quacks like a duck it is a duck - similarly, if it has all (or most) of the characteristics of cash (i.e. use it, lose it) it's cash!
No Way...I can't see an easy way to hide this stuff completely as you can with cash. There's always going to be a need for totally anonymous, never expires, never gets damaged cash.
In Belgium this has been available for a couple of years now. It's called Proton over here and is pretty popular.
My wallet gets too fat with cash. Not the big bills, either, just the singles, it seems. :( Besides, most of the time I end up using ATM, anyway.
I wonder if there will be a way to transfer money directly from one card to another, although I suppose you would need a separate machine for that.
Otherwise you could only use it at places like stores, where they would have a card reader.
Paper money has the advantage over the card because you can see how much you have without accessing that information somewhere else.
down some strippers G-String? How I ask you?
What the hell are you supposed to do when someone decides to be an ass and demagnetize your card? Does your money just vanish since you can't scan it and it carries no identifying information?
Is it just me, or does the above post make absolutely ZERO sense?
Paper money has to be carefully studied and then duplicated with painstaking attention to detail.
Someone could just probably figure out how money is "stored" and just keep on replenishing. Note the card is anonymous.
Money might not grow on trees, but it can be created by computer
Paperless currency, in my opinion is well overdue.
1) Such cards could be used overseas more easily.
2) Good alternatives to credit cards. You won't get charged a fee for a lot of small transactions.
http://www.matrexstation.com
:) check it out... cool stuff :)
yes there is
I'm not drunk, I'm just in touch with pi.
When I first moved to the Netherlands in 1999, I encountered a system very similar to this called KnipChip (or something like that). It was included on all debit cards, but, just as is stated in this article, it's completely anonymous. There's no PIN, no waiting, just instant payment. Good stuff.
I wish that it would take off in more places so that I don't have to sit behind the five idiots who decide to pay for their milk with debit/credit cards at the supermarke.t
How unprecedented, unless you count the photocopy cash cards that have been in use for nearly twenty years, and which are EXACTLY the same thing.
The amazing thing isn't that it's a decade or two old. The amazing thing is that it's a decade or two old, and it isn't a dupe.
i wish the article looked into how the gov't insured that evildoers are not able to illegally hack cards to increase their value (or start counterfeiting cards) ..
the article did mention card refills, so it would seem the chip on the card is (re)writable.
----
i do not use drugs, i AM drugs -- Dali
Now all I need is a couple of these and a magnetic strip encoder with a little free time to figure out the code.
Cha-ching!
We, Canadian or American, will never see a cash replacement like this. In case no one has noticed, our goverment/buisness bloc is not down with the idea, and our (the peoples) political will is not enough to counter that.
It's strange to see the banner of liberty go back to the French, after so many years.
Man, I just burnt some Karma, didn't I? It's really not a troll, though.
"A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming, is not worth knowing" - Alan Perlis
Isn't there something about this in the bible? Spooky eh?
I'm not drunk, I'm just in touch with pi.
I work at a retail electronics store (biggest one in Canada, owned by Best Buy now... u know which one.) and we had a customer who worked for a smartcard company. Talking with him, I've been completely AMAZED with what smartcards can do. In a few months, he said, credit cards will be shifting to smart cards, and be rid of the magnetic strips. Our till at the counter has a card reader, both magnetic and smart. I can't tell you how many magnetic strips have caused me problems. Using the smart card reader on the bottom of the unit will be a lifesaver! Also, he talked about this organization that they just finished work with, but I forgot the name. But, basically, it was like a union for construction workers, and they issued smart cards to every worker. And on the smart card, was information about the worker, his credentials, resume, and certificates. He could walk to a job site or contractor, and they scan the card, and it would show it all on the computer, and it was completely valid because all the proper documentation would be pulled up. I thought that was amazing because it reduces tons of paperwork, and forgery too! I think smart cards just make sense, especially when moving to money too. I deal with cash at the store too, but having to find the appropriate change to give to customers is just a pain. Mind you, with our comparitively high-priced items, we don't deal with tons of cash, mostly cards. But, at least with the smaller stuff, customers have the convenience of paying quickly, easily, and with cash they have now, and I have the convenience of not handling cash. It just makes sense, and Canadians would defintely use it in my opinion. We're in love with our cards, heh.
This CashCard has existed here in switzerland for several years. It is, however, largely ignored except for a few places.
The reason for that is simple and the same as why, in France, the new card is not being well accepted: It has an expensive transaction cost compared to the price of the item you purshase (think 10 centims per transaction where you would use it to buy 1 Euro items), the fact that it is far from annonymous and finally the fact that the machine you use to "load" the card is compley and damn slow to manipulate (whant to buy ? Load your credit card, punch your PIN, wait until the bank answer, withdraw your card, load your cashcard, deposit, remove cash card, load it again, buy item - about 5 minutes for the average persone).
The only place here, in Geneva, where it is commonly used is for public phones and for paying for car park. Several articales of the French TV and the words from my French friends shows that the same apply to France.
Go back to drinking you dumb fuck.
So how, exactly, is money transferred personally? Are there booths/kiosks available to take $$$ from one guy's card an put it on another? Does one need to do this through a website?
I'm guessing that until the above can be complete solved and adopted, this won't be replacing the paper stuff.
"Yeah, well, Dracula called and he's coming over tonight for you and I said okay."
We've had these 'cash chips' on credit cards, along with standalone cards, for years in Finland. The only problem is that the system is not used widely enough, so you still need real cash.
Based on this experience, I don't think this French equivalent will succeed much better. Not everyone who handles money can afford the necessary equipment (think about lending money to your friends, etc.)
Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
I don't know about you, but I don't believe this stores no personal information. That's just too good an opportunity for those in 'control' to pass up. Once the electronic infrastructure is in place it is only seconds work to add extra information.
Once that's in place there's no stopping it.
> "I just had nine Bud Lights in two hours, so my thinking might be a little irrational or something."
This is the reason you're not allowed to drink until you are 21 in US. 9 Bud Lights have you thinking stupid already? Do us all a favor, have 9 more and then go play in traffic.
Of course, I'm not so certain that this needs to be a government implemented project. Companies in the private sector have already done something similar, see Visa.
And anyway, don't many people choose to be cashless as it is now? When I was in retail, a large percentage of people paid with debit cards linked to a major credit card. There's no cash! John Doe has his paycheck directly deposited in to his checking account, then pays for purchases with his debit card which utilizes a preexisting network system (Visa, Mastercard).
So bottom line: yeah, a (near-)cashless society is cool, but is government intervention necessary?
What kind of lowlife people hang out here at
Oh, I see -- my kind... :-)
Karma: Excellent (My Karma? I wish...:-( )
Now spam will say
"make cashless with your home pc!!"
No, I don't trust in god. He'll have to pay up front, like everybody else.
At a 100 Euro limit, even the lamest implementation, if moderatly resistant to hacking and with better resistance to a constant charge hack is better than paper money which can be printed en-masse.
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.html
Based on just that article, it looks like France has essentially signed their Mint over to various corporations and banks. I suppose having virtual money is convienent (As a student, I get to use it for running down to the vending machine, which is great), but it seems like making this a government-only project thing would be better.
From the article:
If anyone else is wondering about this odd dollar figure as the card's maximum limit, $107USD = approx. 100 Euros.
"Yeah, well, Dracula called and he's coming over tonight for you and I said okay."
The Reserve Bank of Australia introduced polymer notes in 1992.
Compared to other currency (especially U.S.) they are very colourful.
At end-of-life they are recycled just like other plastic into flowerpots etc.
The article says you need a PIN to add money to the card (no PIN needed to withdraw, though). Apparently this is for security. I can't think of a single reason how that would increase security, or do anything but be slightly annoying. Anybody care to enlighten me?
today i went in to a starbucks and ordered a latte; i realized i didn't have enough cash and decided to pay with a credit card. the woman behind me did the same thing. it occured to me that for small transactions credit card companies could just allow the "gas station" thing, where you don't acutally have to sign if it is a trivial amount. it seems like that would be a lot more reasonable than adding something else on top that adds complexity and risk.
as a former econ. guy, i have to say that a lot of the coments are very insightful. it doesn't take much flight of fancy to imagine the serious consequences of a system like this breaking down during, say, a national emergency or something.
and duh, since it works like cash it has the drawbacks of cash (wealth is insecure, limit to what you can carry) and some of the hastles of credit cards (i've had card's erased!)
We've been using that kind of system for years in Belgium, it's called Proton.
It pretty much comes standard on any bank card, and you can charge them in any ATM machine and phone-cell.
It sounds great in theory, and it's way more convenient than real money, but I think there's a serious psychological factor in play here : people not only like to know how much money they have at any time, but they like to be able to feel it. Especially older people are somewhat mistrusting towards technology and banks, and if you combine the two -like here- it's no wonder they don't use it.
we have been using it for a couple of years and it's pretty usefull. It's called "Proton".
..).
;)
I don't think the card is that anonymous. At least I suppose there is some id code on it so that abuse can be tracked if hackers find a way to copy data over and over again: total expensed total recharged at machines. At least I hope!
And if someone stole your card, since it's coupled with your traditional bank card, there's no way to recharge it (without code,
We can also recharge it via "PC banking", directly from home, in less than a minute. But you have to use IE, that's the only drawback
Cash alleviates the anxiety that goes along with not knowing how much money is left on card X, or whether the magnetic stripe on card X will work, or will this restaurant take this type of card? I suspect many would still want to carry "backup" cash anyway defeating the purpose.
As stated in the article business persons may not want to pay the percentage necessary to have one of these machines. I really don't see how this is advantagous to the consumer or to the business person.
Do us all a favor, have 9 more and then go play in traffic. Hehheh... I don't drink ad drive.
muahahahhahaAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA!
/please do/ end paper money, oh france. the International League of Supervillians applauds you.
MONEY that _requires_ electricity AND bit-integrity!
oh,
You see it in the gutter and are not sure whether it's worth your time digging out or not.
No electricity, No card reader = No MONEY!
Unreadable card = No Money! (A smashed torn $20 bill is still good Money!)
the EMP weapon is more deadly to Chip card societies - No computers = No Money! (ok this one is a stretch)
You get the idea -
It might become popular with shop owners, by reducing the costs involved with handling cash.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
Why the hell not? It gets rid of the invoncenience of lots of coins yet it still maintains the privacy that you have when paying by cash.
I say we take this before some privacy-destroying super-internet-enabled-megacard is proposed...
It's called 'CASH', and for the most part, you use your ATM card as your 'CASH' card. You fill up the cash portion at an ATM, and you can use it anywhere, with no PIN. Works great for vending machines, and at small cafes.
d.
I don't see how this is addressed.
(1) What if the babysitter comes to my house and I owe $4.50. Do we both go to the nearest ATM to transfer onto our cards? Will I have a card swipe in my house (most probably not).
(2) The joke about lap dances someone made before my post actually rings true. How does one pay for these kinds of impromptu needs? How do I loan a friend $1 to get a bottle of pop? Do I give them my card to borrow? Would I give them my wallet? Maybe lap dancers will have card swipes strapped on
(3) What about counting your cash? Simply, how do you know how much is on your card without going to an ATM to get a readout?
(4) How do you give the kids a few dollars to shop or grab a bite? How do you give them one dollar to grab candy before the movie starts? Do you give them the entire card? Again, do you give your entire wallet / purse for a need like this?
(5) If a card gets snapped in half, then what? When a paper bill is ripped, a taped one is still legal tender. What about cards?
(6) Can someone run a bulk demagnetizer over my card and financially wipe me out? This is a serious concern, folks.
How are these simple needs addressed? I also like to think that the days of paper money are numbered -- but how are these needs met?
Maybe withdrawing all paper cash $5 and over, converting US dollar bills to a system like Canadian $1 and $2 coins for small change needs? Coins are much more convenient than paper that gets folded, spindled, mutilated, torn, etc.
How the hell am I supposed to buy pot with a card????
----
Squirrel
Paper cash is reliable. it doesn't disappear in a magnetic field, won't be rendered useless under mild abuse (such as bending, scratching), and will still be accepted by more than a few places taped back together. And who knows...? I might actually want to carry over $107 dollars at a time...!
You need a FREE iPod Nano
we, as humanity, need to develop far enough so we don't need any form of cash. It would save allot of BS. If only we could be so co-ordinated.
The cards may be anonymous in the sense that it isn't registered who carries is, but the underlying symmetric crypto security guarantees that the transactions made with the card are linkable. Do 1 transaction that identifies you (like calling home on a pay phone) and all the card's transactions can now be traced back to you.
In the real world linkability means that there is zero privacy.
and the game they show it playing....
tux racer
I've got a credit/ATM card, driver's license, library card, organ donor card, student card, video rental card and a bonus card to the grocery store.
I don't want to carry yet another card.
But I don't want to carry coins either. And I don't want this information to be bundled to my credit card either and I don't want to pay every small item with credit card either.
Solution: use the other end of the card for the credit/ATM card chip and the other end for the cash card chip. After that deploying the cards comes automatically. And after they are deployed people have a chance to use them.
Antti S. Brax - Old school - http://www.iki.fi/asb/
I've never found managing the amount of cash I have in my pocket difficult.
When I want to know how much money I have, I still have to go to an ATM.
--
the strongest word is still the word "free"
I've been in numerous stores that shut down when the power fails or the store's server crashes. They have no procedures for handling sales by manual methods. It is frustrating to have cash and product in hand, only to be told that they can't make the sale while the computer is down.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
It's called a "Dankort".
still reading?
I've been cashless for like 6 months since i got laid off. :(
What are you going to do? Release the dogs? or the Bees? Or the dogs with bees in there mouth and when they bark they shoot bees at you?
In Denmark, the purse card Danmønt has been around since 1991 but has never really taken off since you can use it at few places only. The nationwide credit card, Dankort, however, is immensely popular.
Unselfish actions pay back better
If the card's worth were encoded on the magnetic strip itself, it would be a matter of days before someone figures out how to hack the thing and add as much cash as they want to it.
If, on the other hand, the card's worth were stored in some central location, the thing is not anonymous at all. There would be a centralied account somewhere (which necessitates some form of ID number by which people may be tracked), and there's no way guarantee that someone's not keeping track of transactions to and from that account.
I would argue that such a card can be no more anonymous that a standard debit card, which most of us carry today.
The problem I see with these cards is that you essentially buy them from a bank.
Let's say you buy a $100 dollar card from the bank. The bank transfers $100 from YOUR account to their account from which it can be used by the bank to loan to other customers and earn interest (mortgage loans, auto loans, credit card loans, etc). So if it takes 2 months for you to use up the $100, you've "given" your capital to the bank to use for two months.
On top of the banks getting the "earning power" of your $100, they charge you to get your capital back through transaction fees! So at a minimum, the bank makes 50 cents on every card it "fills up". If it takes you two months to use the card, they get up to ~$2.00 more!
On top of all that, what happens to the money that never gets used, lost cards, broken cards, cards that have only 50 cents left on them so they get tossed into glove box. I'm sure the banks won't let go of that "unclaimed" cash without a fight.
No, I'll continue to use my ATM card that's linked to an interest bearing checking account, even though its a microscopic rate and live under the illussion that I have control of my cash.
My first reaction to this was "Whoa, no paper money?!", but then it occurred to me that I've had a debit card since I was a little kid.
With annual fees, 0.9% "tax" per transaction, and a $107 limit (ooooh, I read the article!), I don't think it's any surprize why it hasn't caught on outside France...
I don't see how this is any better than a debit card, though. Seems more like a hassle than any benefit. And I doubt this is going to actually replace cash, since it only has that $107 limit.
Teller: "Swipe to make a withdrawl..." Teller: "Hey, didn't you cash money here 3 minutes ago?" Thief: "No, someone who looks like me cashed their $107 card." Teller: "OK, swipe to make a withdrawl..." Thief: $214 Card Co.: ($214) Sorry, looks like another way crackers can steal money to me, just this time in a pocket sized form.
A lot of people posting here seem to think that this is great, whereas there was a huge outcry in the postings about the Patriot II draft legislation which would effect, by and large, a very small number of people. This has the potential to touch everyone in the US in a pervasive manner.
Consider this:
> No private information is stored on the card and anybody can use it.
Step 1: Put infrastructure into place in benign manner.
Step 2: Wait for natural convenience to grow user base.
Step 3: Start mandating it for a growing number of transactions.
Step 4: Change rules so ID is present or tied to transaction (to prevent money laundering, drugs, etc.)
Step 5: Wait until appropriate minority steps out of line.
Step 6: Flip the switch to their cards don't work, or cards call police, etc.
Step 7: Oppression!
Shudder.
Remember kids: In the US, transactions over $10,000 are tracked by the government to fight money laundering, drugs, etc. This law brought to you courtesy of the Clinton administration and the letters I R S.
The Euro worth more then the dollar!? heresy!
Damn bush and his asinine financial policies.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
This time they are on a transaction which is being promoted as being a "cash" one. Folding stuff works. It is simple, does not impose any third-party service-provider fees, so why on earth would any sane person want to pay a transaction fee every time they bought a cup of coffee, or caught a bus. It's got me bear.
We've had Cash-cards in Sweden half a decade or so. I have one integrated in my Visa-card.
They never took off, though. The banks were stupidly greedy and charged too much from the stores that had a card reader. In the beginning the card worked everywhere in my city, but after one year the readers all vanished when the store keepers got upset about the cost.
There you go - you should spread your inventions to everyone for no cost at all. It's not until you've reached critical mass you can make money, and not from charging for the product, but by savings on other things, like handling cash, and by selling services to the users of your invention.
I have 1 Gbps Internet access@home
Sorry, 0 hrs sleep = no >br<...
Now in human readable form:
Teller: "Swipe to make a withdrawl..."
>3 minutes later<
Teller: "Hey, didn't you cash money here 3 minutes ago?"
Thief: "No, someone who looks like me cashed their $107 card."
Teller: "OK, swipe to make a withdrawl..."
Thief: $214 Card Co.: ($214)
Sorry, looks like another way crackers can steal money to me, just this time in a pocket sized form.
We in Belgium got this for 10 years. Its handy to pay parking tickets and small amounts. But its not handy when you want to know how much money you have
I prefer cash. Someone said this is so financial institutions can collect a fee on transactions they currently can't (cash) if there is a database saying how much you have. its not anon. if there is no database and the card gets fucked (de magnatized) you're owned. this is just a bad idea. france can eat shit.
- Find the secrets on a card (possibly by detailed examination of the card in your hand or by social engineering/theft)
- Build something that simulates a smartcard (it can be as ugly as you like, no-one will see it)
- Transfer money from your simulated card onto a real card
- ???
- Profit...
That's kinda hard work. But if your object is to defend against a smartcard system, there is an easier way to destroy public trust in it:-
Charge a real card with real money.
-
Remove the chip from the card.
-
Embed the genuine charged chip in a blank, white plastic card.
-
Go on TV and claim "Here's one I made earlier" and get them to test it.
AndrewOh man. Tux racer is the best gaem evar! It's way better than any non-free as in freedom racing games. It truly shows that free games are the way of the future!!!!!11
So it's a poor form of credit card. I really don't understand the significance. I'm willing to take the risk of being mocked by posterity, "first against the wall when the revolution came" and all that, but this sounds like a stupid idea a day late and a dollar short.
Anyone that promotes or espouses a "cashless society" has to take into account that there are billions of available dollars out there from marginal people that do not have or want credit cards.
Some cannot obtain credit due to past credit problems (and operate on a cash-only basis as a result), others simply do not want to have a credit card for other reasons.
Someone please tell me when it became necessary to be digitalized in order to buy stuff in this new digital economy.
Maybe I'm just a raving lunatic without proper credit, but I had to purchase PaintShopPro with cash, since my card was maxxed. Automatically, I was looked at suspiciously.
Is this the future?
When I read this story I just started laughing my ass off, when i thought about how this could be used/abused. Here is a scenario for you: I am sitting in a strip club with my "moneo" and the stripper does one of her moves where she grabbes/swipes your moneo with deducting some amount. Just use your imagination. :)
later,
epicstruggle
"Im drowning here, and you're describing the water!"
--- For a good time mail uce@ftc.gov
Who in their right mind would use perfectly god cash accepted anywhere, to buy a card with exactly the same amount minus fee, but recognised only in selected stores? Which company could justify investing in another machine to handle payments already handled by cash/creditcard? Apperently no one, here in sweden they tried to give the cards away, eventually gave the cardreaders away to stores, but now it's rightfully dead. Cashcards just plain sucks once the novely wears off (and no there was nothing wrong with the technology, no pin codes, chargers availible in abundance, no magnetic strip it used a chip). Notable however is where they was last seen, parkingmeters having money doesn't equal coins so there was a niche market.
That's not hung over - that is your body rejecting the chemically processed waste that you have been drinking.
Next time try drinking some beer - it will taste better, and you'll feel better as well.
I suggest you try to track down some Third Coast Old while it is in season, or if you can't find it some regular Third Coast would also be a good idea .
Isn't that a debit card? There's just no signature. If it's just a card, there will be tons of spending. I did an experiment in a sociology class I took and basically people do not pay attention to what they spend with cards as much as with cash. Cash is something tangible and when you see it disappearing, you refrain from spending more. That means a lot more spending will be going on for people. Yay for the economy.
eventually, prostitutes have to carry a Moneo-reader: "hey! cowboy, plug your card in, after you plug that out."
One drawback with this is that at least with cash you can almost guarantee anonymity (modulo fingerprints and DNA, maybe). Can you verify the anonymity of transactions using these cards?
And, of course, there's the worry that reverse engineering the card codes and card readers to verify anonymity. I suppose you might get busted for doing that.
From the article:
Because the basic Moneo card is anonymous, there are no privacy or identity theft concerns.
Regardless of whether the "basic" card is anonymous, it's still clearly possible to track the card's use, and by extension, its user, who has to be identified to obtain the money to begin with.
Step 1) $100 were downloaded from John Smith's bank account to card #12345
Step 2) Card #12345 was just used to purchase $80 worth of pr0n.
Step 3) Bank sends John Smith a bunch of porn-related junk mail.
The retailer might not be able to ascertain John Smith's identity, but the bank most likely could, if it were part of the network.
And the government certainly could. Not familiar with France, but in US translate "could" as "would."
I hope someone can contradict me here. In particular, I'm wondering if there's a way to anonymize Step 1, such that: 1a) $100 is transferred from John Smith's account to a special secure escrow network which is holding money from many pending transfers. 1b) ATM 385 is given authorization to loads up a card with $100. 1c) ATM 385 loads #12345 with $100 drawn from the escrow network. 1d) After transaction is complete, all bank knows is that $100 is gone from John Smith's account and given to ATM 385. All ATM 385 remembers is that it loaded $100 onto card #12345. It doesn't remember the account it was originally taken from. Does this make sense?
There are two kinds of people: 1) those who start arrays with one and 1) those who start them with zero.
...you could try swiping it in the slot?
In this column, you can read what I thought about this. "About a week ago, my bank asked me if I wanted a new plastic card, named Moneo. This card would be dedicated to small purchases, like newspapers or a french baguette. My bank also asked for 10 euros per year for the card..." Personally, I don't think Moneo will be successful except if it's free. For more details, check this BusinessWeek article or the official Moneo website (in french). Roland Piquepaille.(http://radio.weblogs.com/0105910/)
As a french pro-european, I'll amazed at the short-sightedness of the various european govs in supporting those cards.
As pointed out in numerous posts, cards like this exist all over Europe... and yet, AFAIK, none are compatible.
Think about it: with the Euro, I can go in any of the 12 participating countries and pay with the same money, without any problem. With this great cool new gadget, I'm limited to a few shops in my own country. Oh, and I kinda like the euro coins, it's fun to see some from 12 different countries mixing in my pocket. This thing is just a bit of plastic. And it's expensive too.
Needless to say, I'm not getting one before I can use it all over the EU. And before it gets cheaper, as well.
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A safe encryption based handshaking requires an additional 'master card' with the intelligence to do the transer inside the reader. So its very unlikely your local homeless will walk around with a reader :) But it is possible!
Point is that the card of the merchent has to be emptied at the bank as well, and why is this important? Well; the bank has absolutely no way of tracking transactions to real persons.
This is the beaty of the system; in contrary to all electronic payment systems; this is the only one that actually makes your payments more anonymous.
Wow, you're cool! NINE Buds in two hours! Amazing!
You must SO drunk after all that alcohol.
Im already a 'cashless' person, screw the rest of society....
We've got our 'Chip' cards already. They're wickedly convenient. 500 Euro limit, reloading machines all over the place, can use them many places - even raunchy ron's and parking meters.
I don't use chip cards where I would use paper money - I use PIN (my bank account) for these so I will have a limit. The Chip cards are great for places you would ordinarily carry around loose change.
The Swedish CASH-card (which is pretty much the same as this French card) can be incorporated into credit/ATM-cards, and has been available in that format for several years.
It isn't any popular anyway. Since people don't like plastic money that can magically dissapear and cost money to spend. Regular money doesnät have this disadvantage.
This is different than my check card in what way?
I haven't touched cash in years. It even works at McDonalds(at least in Texas).
The German "GeldKarte" (translates to MoneyCard) is basically the same, except for the fact that it is fitted on your credit card (which ist not important, no photos on credit cards here, you're anonymous).
This design was massively pushed by basically all banks around in Germany, and is now slowly being abandoned, since nobody uses it.
I figure that will happen to French Moneo.
In the days of EFTPOS and credit cards, is another form of cash-alternative that desirable?
The way I see it, the only difference between EFTPOS and a cash-card is that with a cash-card you don't have to have it linked to an actual bank account.
I'm sure a whole lot of people lead a fairly paperless life these days thanks to current plastic alternatives.
Further, I'd imagine that a POS that is not currently EFTPOS enabled is unlikely to adapt this new technology so I don't see any advantage.
It's a bankers dream, control over cash,
and getting a percentage back from the flow
by taxing the shops for it's use.
freedom ?
it's more like another loss to a lot
of people over here, and it isn't going down
that well.
This was introduced in Denmark a couple of years ago, but it failed to get broad appeal.
If you want to see how to bring down the amount of cash that people have, you should have a look at the Danish "Dankort" system. It is because of that system that Denmark has the lowest amount of cash in circulation compared to the size of the economy. Personally I almost never carry any cash around.
http://www.dankort.dk/ (Danish)
The Dankort system is an online system with identity, but it has been constructed in a way that makes almost anybody able to get it. Of a population of 5 million, there are 3.3 million Dankort. If you subtract the children and the very old people, you'll find that almost anybody uses it.
Lars Dybdahl.
Since smart cards in France all incorporate a chip, their magnetic strips are rarely used. Thus, even if the strip id demagnetised, so long as the chip is OK, the card is OK too.
And hopefully, it takes more work to mess a chip up than a magnetic strip.
Because the basic Moneo card is anonymous, there are no privacy or identity theft concerns. But if an owner loses his or her smart card, the cash that's stored onboard can be used by whoever finds it -- which is why there's a $107 storage limit.
Fascinatingly, the article doesnt say precisely who is issuing the card; is it a private company, or the French Government?
If its a private company, this system will not engulf France without being nationalized. No private company will be allowed to control the method by which all the money in France is spent, and of course, for it to be really efficient, there can be only one system.
The limit of 107 is just silly. If you have a 500 euro note in your pocket and then use it to light a cigar, thats your business. Limiting the amount that can be lost is absurd; its your money; if you want to put 20,000 on the card, its your risk. A card that cant even take the value of the highest denominated note in circulation (500e) is pretty stupid.
Chaumian Digicash was superior to this. It really was anonymous, in that the entire system was secret. With this system, all your transactions to and from the card are recorded. There is no advantage in moving your money to the card from your account; move it to cash, and the utility of the final object is the same. Also with Digicash, there were no artificial and absurd limits to how much you could put in your "wallet".
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All of Australia's banknotes are made out of plastic. Which gives them the advantage of last a sodding long time...
:) Granted, $5s last a lot less, but it's still a whole lot better than paper (cotton pulp) notes.
:)
Australians or anyone with them.. the first two digits of the serial number are the year of manufacture. I have a $20 made in 1994 and another from 1998. I jut got some 2002 date $20s.. ei, they only need to print new $20s every 4 years
Of course, they spring around like no-body's business and are absolutely frictionless, but the concept is so cool!
Pictures at -> http://theducks.org/notes
Looks like it's time to grab the ole' smart card encoder and head over the pond... Has anyone even taken a look at the security on this?
Smartcard reader/writers have been available to the general public for quite a few years now (The Eltron 310 does full color card printing, mag encoding, bar codes and smart card encoding in one box for $3k), and you can find schematics on how to build your own all over the place.
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Alright, there is a small microchip in the card that keeps track of how much money is on it. What's to stop l33t hax0rs from tooling around with a Mr. Electricity Soldering Kit and changing how much is on it? Or better yet, an adaptor that fits into a laptop that let's you add cash with a couple of keystrokes?
There are no gods but ourselves.
Seriously though, this is just silly. By now everyone has heard of 'Debit Cards' and I would think that a fair number of /.ers have paypal mastercard debit cards.
Well guess what?
Canada has been there for years.
4 out of 5 stores (or in a mall, every store) has Interacmachines. Direct debit, pin protected, and ANY bank card on the interac network works on it. That is every major bank in Canada, almost all the little ones, plus most credit unions.
Explain how a pin protected card (which is cancelable by phone) is better than this 'new' french system? I mean, their system is just basically a revamp of european phone cards.
The only benefits the french system has over Interac is anonymity - As for that, we do still have cash for that, or in the case of a true cashless society, just trade in precious minerals. (eg, gold.)
By the way, Interac direct payment has been rolled out since `94
Desperation is a stinky cologne
..but my drug dealer doesn't take plastic.
btw, A cashless society is just asking for disaster. As is, only a small percentage of American Dollars are backed by Gold in the Reserve, unlike the Euro. Something bad will happen again.
I have no doubt that these smart cards will be very difficult, if not nearly impossible, to crack so that money can be surreptitiously added to them. However, I am very confident they will eventually be cracked and probably in a completely unexpected manner.
The same is true for paper currency. It is also very difficult, but possible, to make realistic looking conterfeit bills that can be passed for the real thing. The big difference here is that just because one person can successfully learn the skills and gather the equipment needed to create convincing counterfeit bills it is still very difficult to transfer the necessary skills to other people wishing to do the same thing. This is not true once smart cards containing cash are successfully cracked. It's a safe bet that knowledge of such a crack would spread like wildfire across the web. Hell, it will probably just be a 100k download and some parts bought from RadioShack.
It is easy to imagine the whole smart card system collapsing over night because millions of consumers could suddenly recharge their smart cards with cash using their home PC (unless of course we are all using government mandated Palladium systems).
If you think industry and government has headaches with DeCSS, it will be peanuts compared to DeSMARTCARD if these smart cards do succeed in replacing cash on a large scale. It will bring a whole new meaning to "script kiddie".
We're probably better off just sticking with low-tech coins and paper currency...
we have the "CASH" system (exactely the same thing as this moneo) since at least 1995. Works fine, but in very few places: mostely automates (parking, beverage, etc.) and university restaurants...
You can read the story in here (it's in portuguese).
And it can be used to pay anything, from taxes to bread
Anyone else having flashbacks about having to find your card?
There's something similar in Finland as well - a chip in a card and it works just the same way too. It should be totally anonymous like cash.
There's at least one problem with it (besides the fact that there must be a some kind of reader for it and it can't store large amounts of money):
You have to pay to get it loaded! I don't think anyone want's to pay for being able to get their cash.
Paying to get the card loaded, combined with a fact that card can't really carry a lot of cash, makes sure that you'll be paying a lot of money in the long run just to use the chip.
It's in fact illegal in Finland to charge someone for their access to their own money (as in you have to pay to the bank because your employer transfers your money to your account - there of course are monthly fees for other services like credit cards).
If this thing requires payments to get it loaded, it will never succeed.
You have a piece of plastic. Used as a debit, the transaction is completed immediately, as in, the funds are withdrawn from your account. Id used as a Visa/Mastercard, the funds take a few days to withdraw. Personaly, I would not use it as the supposed lack of security. Also, from the paranoid aspect, Big Brother could track every transaction made. Isn't that what our US Gov't is trying to do? I happen to like my privacy and to those people who say "well, if you havn't done anything wrong, you have nothing to hide." I say take a flying leap.
Your actions in life will determine your children's future.
I know this is funny but here is what actually happens at a particular club in Europe, Golden Dolls in Frankfurt.. You buy "Golden Dollars" (Note: not euros) with your Credit or Debit card, you insert said "Dollar" into lady's whatever. Lady exchanges said "dollars" back for real money at a house discount. Cash tipping isn't permitted.
See my journal, I write things there
We have these here in Germany too called "Geld Karte" (Cash/Money Card). They are mostly embraced by the Sparkasse, while most of the major private banks are reluctant to give them to you.
They are used for some aplications and there talk to add an age authentication system too them for the purpose of proving you age to cigarette vending machines. There is also talk to intengrate Crypto functionality so that you may digitally sign documents with them.
However in my mind the killer app would be to be able to use them cheaply for micro payments on the internet.
However to be widely accetable these would have to:
a) Be secure virtually - no electronic counterfitting
b) Be anonymous - Imagine Grandma giving the kids some money triggering an automatic I.R.S. audit. Let that happen once and they are out of buisiness
c) Be cheap. Real money is not for free either since there is considerable labor involved in handing out the money, accounting for the cash and buisiness has to buy insurance against theft.
d) Hardware has to be cheap too. By law the electronic signature has been available for years how every no one is using it since the cost of hardware is just too high. However with a cheap mass market reader there is no reason why this should no become as widely available as floppy drives are now (Sorry Mac Fans no pun intended). By the way as if did read that there is nothing TCPA can do which can't be done with a smart card reader, accept selling new hardware since smart card readers can be bought as an upgrade...
Currently there is one big drawback in all of these systems: All of them require the end user to bear most of the cost of deploying them (they have to pay for the class 3 reader and the smartcard), while buisiness saves a lot of money because processing is way cheaper.
Proton pretty much is the standard, the several systems just arent interoperable. Over here (Netherlands) we use it too, and AFAIK all banks offer if for free.
I hope though governments will remain in our service enough to keep mandating paper money and coins should remain legal tender and accepted. The very large monolithic e-wallet systems we see in several European countries now are fine, as long as we the customers have good old money to revert too if the system decides to screw us over.
A system similar to this was rolled out here in Sweden a couple of years ago - CASH as it is aptly named. Now, about 4 years later, it's all but dead since nobody thought it was a good idea. As far as I can see, the only thing people use these cards for these days is parking meters.
I think it failed here because of a few simple reasons. People here were actually smart enough to see that a major reason for the banks to try this approach is for them to make more money without any benefit to the customer. Doesn't it sound like a banker's dream? I can hear the banker's going:
- I've got a great idea! We'll make our customers keep all their money - including their cash - in our bank, but we won't pay them any interest on that "CASH"-card.
- Sweet! And why don't we charge them a small fee to obtain the card in the first place?
- They won't know what hit them!
Sure, it sounds great with a cash-less society, but until the system is free to use and has all the advantages of cash, it just won't catch on.
A governmental concern might be is this profitable. Here in the USA the feds still make pennies because they cost 1 cent per eight manufactured = 7 cents profit. Profits are even greater with paper money I believe, at least once a high denomination is generated. I dont see cash cards as being very proftable to the government, at least in a direct sense (Obviously they could raise taxes or find a way to profit).
Choosing the lesser of two evils is a choice for evil.
The database part sounds an awful lot like it could be used to trace transactions - thus not making it ideal when you want to pay off illegal labour, buy a car under the table to get away from state tax, or convert those drug millions you made on the street into something mroe useful than an e-card to you (i.e. a house, gold, bearer bonds).
e-cash will never take off until people can be 100% sure they can use it in dubious (viewed more or less illegal by the state) activities - like tax evasion, black labour, illegal gambling, drugs, etc.
Money still seems like a safer bet since it can't be backtracked - for a system like this to work they need to be able to see and check the transaction history (lest a Slashdotter will crack the card and start making his own money - thus they need to be able to check and verify all transactions so no "creative" money has arrived on the card).
Civilization is the process of setting man free from men.
The irony of e-cash is that the only way to anonymize it is to pay for the e-cash with regular cash... and then what's the point?
Civilization is the process of setting man free from men.
Is there really any advantage over a debit card? It would seem it's just an extremely limited one. Debit cards take money directly from your checking account, so they're basically like having cash (you don't pay them back later like credit cards). This new card is just a deibt card that can only hold 107 bucks. Seems like a waste to me. If people just wise up and use debit cards, the change will occur without the government getting involved.
GL
We trialed Mondex in my home town many years ago. To coin a gaming phrase: It sucked.
I was given a card with £10 on it, a key-fob for reading it, and a residential phone that worked much like an ATM - you could credit your card by inserting it into a slot on the side and phoning the bank with a special button.
It took me 6 months to spend the money. The machines didn't always work, staff were not trained properly, IT WASN'T CASH and we all hated it.
6 months after that. They wanted to check the card for damage etc. They gave me another £10 to spend on it - I managed to turn this back into cash buy returning a previous purchase...
Cash is good. It is reliable and friendly.
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We have had a similar system in Switzerland for several years now (about ten, maybe a bit less), which is simply called "Cash".
I think it comes more or less standard with all bank cards, and it's free (techincally; maybe the bank charges for it as part of its general services, but the name "Cash" doesn't appear on my invoices.
I've been using extensively for the past year, and while it has some definite advantages, I don't see that replacing paper money for quite a while.
The good side:
- It's fairly easy to use; put it into a Cash-aware ATM (most are), transfer up to CHF 200 (ca. USD 150), and then insert it into a Cash-aware machine, hit "OK" and you've paid.
- No need to have the exact change anymore; very convenient for bus tickets.
The bad side:
- Not many places are Cash-aware: bus ticket machines are, some shops are (newsstands, for example), and that's about it...
- If someone steals my bank card, he or she can empty the card's Cash without any control; but since the amount is, at most, CHF 200 and there is only so many bus tickets one can buy, it's not that big a problem; besides, it works the same with paper money...
- Although quite fast, the system is not instantaneous: transactions can take up to 10-20 seconds; that's fast, except when the bus doesn't wait...
- As far as I know, the different national electronic cash systems are not intercompatible; hence, what works in Switzerland will probably not work with the French "Moneo" or Belgian "Proton".
All things said, it's quite convenient for small purchases and bus tickets, especially the "no exact change necessary" part. but it's still quite limited. Don't expect "Cash"- or "Moneo"-like systems to completely replace your paper-and-nickel money any time soon.
Stéphane "Alias" Gallay
Now, where did I put this witty quote?..
A money-card system named "the Octopus", covering six major public transport modes was launched in Hong Kong (Not by government). You can find a lot of information in their homepage, includin the Technology used. To be reminded that KMB, which of course got participated in this project, is the bus company run by private with the largest fleet.
...As far as I know they have deployed asymmetric encrpytion, (the basic card system is developed by Sony, as mentioned in the Webpage, you can find some technology spec over there). Cracking the card will be just as difficult as cracking the SSL Stream I think.
Anonymousity
They sell two types of card, one with no Personal Information and one with it.
Some company has developed system for Elementary/High school to use Octupus to take the rollcall and such, although they are still very new, you have to use the personalized one for these systems. Moreover, for the Personalized one, you can bind it to your credit card so it can Add Value automatically when you got negative value on the card.
For non-personalized one (the "Standard" one), of course they still have an ID Number on it.
Publicity
Nowadays, many stores and outlets do accept Octopus, for example, 7-Eleven, Coca-Cola Vending Machine, Public Telephone... The Octopus is very popular among Hong Kong'ers, almost everyone, from children to elderly, got an Octopus card.
Technology
The card works in touchless way. In Hong Kong every minute is money, you/I mean we can't wait to pull the card out of the wallet, and find the hole to insert it! For Octopus you can put it inside the wallet/bag and put the wallet near the receiver, within several inch, and it works fine.
Someone has mentioned to add value to it...without paying for it
And moreover, they have a backup of your card data, including the money you have, in some centralized servers. So they will detect unauthorized modification to the card in a day or so.
Updates (Transaction) to server, however, do not happen in real time. They sync in a least once a day, for those with permanent connection of course this happens in a lot frequencier. So in event where the Central server is blanked out (will it?), all subsystem will works fine.
Years ago, Some KCRC (a railway company) staff was caughted stealing money...They know it's working in batch job mode, so when people add value through them, they interfere the system before the transaction is commited to central database, and steal the money...However it's detected because the amount in the card and that of the central DB was unmatched...
To replace the "real" money?
Probably not...
1. Just like Credit cards, it only works if you have the card reader...
2. There is no mechanism for user to transfer money betwee cards
Although almost everyone in Hong Kong has an Octopus, but not every shops in Hong Kong got the reader installed...
Besides, you will always need a reader to get the money from the card, but with paper money...you just need a hand (and optionally an eye to verify it quickly).
... and if you really think about it, it will never replace paper or coin money. In Switzerland and numerous other European countries, those cards have existed for more than a decade.
The reasons they cannot replace paper money are quiet obvious:
1) Every place would have to accept them, even coffee machines, lockers, dope dealers, and so on.
2) How do foreigners pay if there is no more paper or coin money available? There would be a need for a global cash card, and that will just bever happen.
The reason these cards were invented is not to replace all paper money, but to have some sort of backup pocket money. And that's also the reason why the fraud and thief issue is irrelevant. You choose how much money you load on it, the same way you choose how much cash you carry around. If you load it up the the maximum and it gets stolen, it's your fault.
And no, I don't think you can then sue the card company, not even in the US.
A simillar scheme was tried on in Leeds, England, a few years ago as an experiment before going national. Banks and other places were fitted out with charging machines, and the majority of retailers were able to take them.
It was a total failure.
I live in France (Paris), and I have never heard of this system before, I have not noticed any advertising about this, and I don't know anyone who actually uses it...
Considering most places accept Carte Bleu (credit cards) for purchases 8Euros and above and most people carry a few euros in their pockets, I can't really see this taking off.
-- 7 string electric violin + live loop samplers
They, I mean the Octopus Company, won't charge you any extra. I think they earn the interests of your deposit. And AFAIK they also got some kind of tax discount from government, with some limitation about what they can do with the deposit, say can't use it to buy share and some invesement...
How about Mondex? It just died quickly...May be because it's a solo game played by HSBC...but Octopus is lanuched with full railways/subway and bus support.
It just takes 1-2 seconds for an transaction to complete (don't forget that it works in batch mode)...If it takes 10 seconds like those in Switzerland, it will get trashed...Take a look at this two photos, 1 and 2. It's a typical subway station, yes it always busy like that...people just can't wait for 10 seconds for going in...
The Euro bills are made of a paper that consists of mainly cotton. Their only problem is that they shrink if they get in the washing machine.
The prospect of e-cash has never really apealed to me. The prospect of havnig a card I insert into a machine at the store which would then store the recipt would be nice. Later I could view my recipts at home and delete the ones that are no longer useful. There could even be write only mode to ensure that the store do not download all of my recipts.
a sig with any other name would be as witty
banks try to screw evenmore businesses. they charge 6% per transaction to the merchant.
As long as (paper) money is printed by the government, there are no serious leaks in the flow of money, and it all stys public. If a program like this is run by private parties, they would like to maximize their profits, and so will charge some commision on each transaction, thus a certain precent of all money used this way leaks to private hands. Of course, market laws prevail, and if many competing such cards are available then commisions will be lower, but still exist. This of course requires standartization of the cards, which further complicates security.
In Oz, all Banknotes are printed on a polymer that lasts many times longer than paper notes. Oh and btw, they survive washing and swimming with them in your boardshorts just fine.
"The first thing to do when you find yourself in a hole is stop digging."
from the story : "And for those who dislike the idea of yet more plastic in their wallets, Moneo can be incorporated onto their existing credit cards -- something that has never been tried outside of France"
False. this has been up & running in belgium for some time (years) now.
Really what is the point in a system that is effectively the same as money if you loose it, and is probably easier to forge?
Most people have credit or debit cards, you can use them in most places now and if you loose them you can cancel them. You can even use them in machines/pay phones/etc. The advantage of these is that you can buy things over the phone or internet by giving the details. No system is going to allow this and be secure against fraud unless it uses remotely stored money and a serial number for you to quote/cancel.
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
I'm currently living and working in Oman, the so-called Switzerland of the Middle East. The government here just announced that in 2004 every citizen and all resident expatriates (foreigners) will be issued a sort of Smart ID card. Supposedly the card will not only carry all details relevant to identification but will also serve as a driver's license and debit card as well. It certainly won't replace cash, but it should sure cut own on the paperwork we're snowed under here.
How about a real cashless society?
Pretty neat, don't you think?
I think you are 100% correct. The money card reduces bank expenses (namely staff). That reducion in expense should be passed on to us in the name of a free card.
personal and / or business activities, as recorded by TIA and TIPS, the serial numbers of your currency card have been deleted.
Have a nice day.
Law enforcement has been deployed for some routine questioning.
KNOCK KNOCK!!!
they just did one mistake when they introduced those cards n sweden. the banks took out such large fees fore machienes that could read the cards so olmost no shops got the machines to read the cards so it just kinda died out.
This is a service from any major bank you can find in Switzerland since maybe 4 years or so. This is just a added function in the bank card and a "cash" logo on it. You can put a maximum of CHF300 (about $200) with any ATM machine or get it back into your account.
Any shop can buy a small blue device to make the transfert. As a customer you simply check to amount, put the card on the device and press the "ok" key. This require only a few seconds.
The use of this "cash" function is segmented. You can find many parking automate with it, and most of public transport ticket automats support it. I think this is right now the best way to take a ticket because it's fast. You don't have to search the monney and put one to one into the automate. Escpecially some of them require the exacte amount of real monney.
All transactions are traced. If you lost the card, the remain amount is credited back to your accout the next month and the old card go into the black list of card tranfered into every transaction devices. It is not safer than real monney, but if you lost the card, you don't lost the monney. I find this feature great!
The banks launched something that seems to be very similair in sweden a couple of years ago. It flunked rather heavily, mostly since there wass already a very widespread use of visa or mastercard. My previous visa card had a chip for using that payment method in it, and I never used it on the same grounds as everyone else. Why split my money and put a part of it in a chip where I can never use it for anything else then payment? And actually pay for using it? To show how much money you had on that card, they had special readers that you could carry around on your keychain. Some banks gave them away for free and some of them sold the viewers. As to the flunking of the entire system? The people never used it due to the fact that you locked the money into the cards and very few shops had them. And the shops never used the system since so few people used it. It's almost entirely gone now.
I think it would be better to make this card a little thicker and with a bill slot. You'd put cash in the bill slot (maybe a coin slot too) and then when you wanted to pay, little robots go in and take the money out. I'd pay for one of those.
Many European Countries have a similar plastic cash system since many years. The cash chip just had its 5th anniversary in Switzerland, where I live.
These chips are particularly suitable for the payment of small amounts. I frequently use it to pay such things as parking meters; one usually doesn't have enough coins in the pocket when they're most needed anyway. All parking meters, most bakeries and newsstands are equipped with cash chip readers.
The chip is found on all EC and Postcards. This basically means that all debit cards (and I think a few credit cards) have this cash-on-chip functionality.
Recently (a few months? ago) there was a made a study/report on the television on how well it got accepted by the people. From what they said it look quite dark for the "CashCard", because not many would/wanted to use it (even thouh, in the last year[s] banks have started to put these "cashcard" function on to their creditcards).
Personally I have never use it because I see it to unsafe (compared to my CreditCard). As it says "if you loose it someone else may use it" right of, no having to crack anything to get access to your money on the card. Let's compare this to my CC. If i loose it, someone has
- 1] to crack my 4 digit pincode - now I see this as an advantage I want on my side, because I have some time (even plenty of it) to call a number and have my CC cancelled - Bottom line I have a safty line.
Now due to #3 and maybe #2 - some people are even scared of using thier CC as a means of paying (now how do you think these people feel about an even more unsafe method? hmm?) and only use it to take out money from the ATM's.2] Has to show up an ID to make a purchase in a store - now even if someone uses my CC before I made my cancillation call I have proof it was'nt me - so after a few paperworks I'll recive back my money.
3] If someone somehow gets hold on my CC (or mere number) and orders online with my CC number, all I have to do is prove it's been stolen/wasn't me and a few papersworks lator I recive back my money... (I can see how this is the darkside of CC - but bare in mind there are mesures to take, where there are none with "CashCard")
But there is an untouched saftey mesure I have'nt brought up that CC has over "CashCard". It is two-split, one beeing "Credit" and the other "bankaccount[s]". Were I'm trying to go is don't use a CC with "Credit" doing regular-day-to-day purchases (have one, just use it _when_neccesary_), and don't have more money in the bankaccount it is tied to then nessecary (thats why I love my bank - All I have to do is logon and transfer funds from my other bankaccount to the one I have my CC tied to - If I _really_ have to buy something _expensise_)
Sum it up; I see my CC more or less a bulletproof method over "CashCard", because:
- 1] Easy access - to my funds, purchases, logs etc etc + other stuff... (all it being avalibe thru internet access..:)
So I've gone over from a wallet with paper money to a few Cards (one being my CC) because of these reasons; and now banks want me to go back to the same insecure way that papper money was, why?2] In controll - Have a few means of saftey lines (heavy weight on Security here)
I don't claim I know more than I know, and if you know you know more than I know, then by all means, let me know.
All the major banks are shareholders in BMS, as well as the SNCF railway authority and the Paris mayor's office.
My first read made the major banks shareholders in the railway authority and the Paris mayor's office.
And I thought the corporate influence on the USA goverment was bad.
This idea already was used here in portugal... But didn0t have much success... after a year or so it was hard to find a store that accepted your cards. But hey! we also were one of the pioneers (if not _the_ peioneers) at introducing "Multibanco" (ATM), "Via Verde" (highway payment system)... :D
BTW: here was called "Porta moedas Multibanco"...
Already some calls for boycott (in french)
Ceci n'est pas une signature.
We have this card in The Netherlands for 10 years now. Altough it is used in many ways, it's still no success. Even the government is advertising this card we call chipknip(electronic wallet). My bank even has given me a small device to lookup the credit on my card. :-) ).
The big advantage of this card should be that there is less money in the supermarkets, shops, gasstations etc... The other ease is that it is not nessecary to authenticate your code every time you pay with the card.
According to some researchreport it is not a success because (the dutch) people like to have the money in their pocket (the dutch are known for keeping their money in their pocket
In Sweden, a cash-card has been available for many, many years now. Taday, all bigger shops and shops associated with some type of franchise accept this card. Many banking cards have both the magnetic strip and the chip installed on them.
1: Secure chip cards.
2: Public key cryptography. This post assumes you know the basic concepts.
IIRC the protocol works (roughly) like this.
- Card 1 says "I am a genuine card. Here is my public key and a certificate for that key issued by the bank."
- Card 2 says "I accept your certificate. I am also a genuine card. Here is my public key and certificate."
- Card 1 says "I have decremented my cash register by $5. Please increment your cash register by $5. Signed: Card 1."
- Card 2 says "OK."
This transfers $5 from card 1 to card 2.Step 3 is the critical one. If that message gets lost then the $5 is lost as well. Of course a real protocol will include nonces and resends so that a single lost bit won't destroy your money.
This has applications beyond just replacing cash. People have been looking for a way of making small transactions over the net for years. These cards are potentially it. Plug a card reader into your USB port, put a similar one on a server somewhere, and you can purchase information off the server, paying by the page if you want. Conventional credit card transactions have high fixed costs. The costs on these cards are very low.
(Actually the server will probably have a PCI card with a high-speed, high-capacity version of the chip. But the principle is the same).
On security, PKC is the easy bit. Securing chip cards is much harder. If you can spoof a card into accepting messages from something other than a real card then you can forge money untraceably. To do this you either have to extract the private key from a card or find some other way to increment its cash register. Both of these need tamper-proof cards. The techniques for doing this are too many to go into here, but you need to worry about power supply signalling information about the processes going on in the cards, and random errors induced by putting the card in a microwave oven (no, I'm not kidding) giving information away too, in addition to raw physical attacks like stripping off the plastic and using very fine patch leads.
The biggest weakness is that any card is potentially an entry point to destabilise the entire system. I suspect this is the real reason for the $107 limit: cracking a single card would give you as an individual considerable wealth, but moving that wealth into the rest of the financial system by (e.g.) depositing it at a bank would show up in odd deposit patterns long before you could "forge" enough money to destabilise the economy. Also the individual who does this has every incentive to keep it quiet: not only has s/he committed a crime, but everyone in the know is a potential blackmailer.
Of course someone might find an easy crack and publish it. This is probably the worst case scenario. The only solution is to recall the cards and go back to cash until the problem can be sorted out. Again, the card limit helps put an upper limit on the cost of this.
Paul.
You are lost in a twisty maze of little standards, all different.
The trouble here is that the security of the cash itself is only as good as the security around the data encryption. As soon as someone ( and someone will do it ) cracks this encryption, that gives them the ability to create unlimited currency that is indistinguishable from the real thing - it _IS_ the real thing in effect.
Also as others have pointed out, the possibilities of destroying ( your own or someone else's ) money by demagnetizing the card is all too simple. If the currency is properly encrypted, than the corruption of a single bit on the card could invalidate all the currency on it, and since you can't track the movement of it the way that you can credit card payments or cheques - it can't be "cancelled" and replaced.
The opportunities for abuse seems to me much higher than with ordinary cash, and this could be very dangerous for the ways we manage our economies. Most countries have a central bank which issues and manages the country's currency, but if this new type of currency invalidates that power to issue currency, than that could also invalidate to a large extent the power of this central bank to stabilize the economy through the use of monetary policy.
All in all this seems to have few advantages over a system like debit, and a whole lot of downsides.
There are a thousand forms of subversion, but few can equal the convenience and immediacy of a cream pie -Noel Godin
Examples:
Salvation Army Bucket
The bum on the corner
The Hot Dog Cart
Birthday cards
Yard Sales
There are lots of stuff we just drop cash into. Going to a card will make these transactions impossible or too expensive to make it worth your while. Personally, I would not mind having something like this except I already have it....my debit card. If I am making a transaction I don't want the bank to know where I was, I get cash at the ATM. I guess I might be a terrorist if I don't want my bank to know I shopped at Bernie's Pleasure Palace and was buying porn or a marital aide.
Gorkman
Moneo can be incorporated onto their existing credit cards -- something that has never been tried outside of France I've had a debit card like that for years, in Portugal. I don't think it ever became a big thing, it's not a big deal when most shops and public phones allow payment with ATM cards, although the lack of a PIN makes it easier (and less safe) to use.
We've had this for years in Belgium. What's so special about it now the French copy our idea?
There's a common quoted engineering phrase "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".
What's wrong with real money? And even if digital money can make some aspects of transactions slightly more convenient, will the benefits ever outweight the pitfalls?
It's just the plain Moneo card that is anonymous. Since the Moneo application can be (and will be) incorporated into you regular bank card, the typical Moneo card is not anonymous.
The system as such is (probably not) anonymous. That is, you can always trace the payment to the card. At least that is the case with the Swedish system -- my brother lost his card, and got refunded the remaining balance of the lost card from his bank after a couple of weeks.
I just wrote a large post about the possibility of couterfeiting, and that this could be a step from advertising on every purchase we make...
THen I thought, it is one step away from Government controlled money.
Everything we do, everything we own, all tagged, bagged and on our record.
Vote the wrong way? all of a sudden, supermarkets are charging you on a higher tarrif.
All taxes insanely twisted in every purchase, the rich get richer, the poor get poorer.
We get forced to use a biometric cash system that records everything.
People think it is cool that they go into a trouser shop, and whatever they want, it bring out the right size, and even takes into the account the number of time syou went to the gym and the number of macdonalds you ate to guess if you got fatter.
But those in power, and those execting these things, will be the only ones who know the real truth.
If someone decides they do not want such a car,d but you think it is a good idea, I urge you to allow them their own freedom and do not think that they should conform to what you think is a good idea.
I'm french. for about 10 month, one of my cards is moneo enabled.
But I don't use it.
Why? They are many reason:
- how does it work? There is no easy mean to find out. If you go to moneo.org and you search, you finish to discover that the card was validated again an undisclosed target security profile. It is security through obscurity.
- Why must I pay beetween 8 and 15 euros to my bank each year(quite same in USD) in order to have the equivalent of cash (and not quite so) for which I already pay taxes.
- It is not the equivalent of cash, cause I cannot give it to whoever I choose. How I am going to give 1,5 euro to the neighbour's daughter when she bring bck my girl from school? I cannot.
So, I'm all for free enterprise, but when the government do well what it does (providing money), I don't see the need to help corporation to compete with less value for the citizens.
From the article: And for those who dislike the idea of yet more plastic in their wallets, Moneo can be incorporated onto their existing credit cards -- something that has never been tried outside of France.
Wrong. I've had a combination PIN card/ChipKnip (the Dutch equivalent to Moneo) for two years now.
In the netherlands a system like that was adopted about 4 or 5 years ago. at first it didn't catch on, but with the euro, a whole bunch of new applications were created for chip-money (calles the chipper or the chip-knip, where knip is a dutch word for wallet)
at the moment all the coffee and candy machines in the university work with it, you can use it in many shops, you can use it to make calls. in the university restaurants you can pay with it. and in cities like rotterdan and amsterdam you MUST pay with it when you want to park your car. This saves a lot of theft from those machines and fraud from the employees who emptie them.
Privacy is terrorism.
That is the price you pay for having integrated systems that take orders, ring up sales, manage inventory and keep track of prices. All of the fast food chains and grocery stores in my area are dependent on these systems. They don't have the people, skills or processes to do things the old-fashioned way in an emergency. I've seen the same thing happen with many businesses. They automate a process and discard the employees, procedures and forms needed to do it manually. After all, one of the major attractions of automation was the money that could be saved by eliminated skilled employees. I can go into a local burger joint and watch the illegal immigrant at the counter push buttons labeled with pictures on the cash register, which computes the total and change, sends the order to the kitchen, updates the inventory, and compiles statistics on store and employee performance.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
If you have clearly more than half of each piece of soiled, worn out, or dirty bills, you can just go to your local bank and exchange them.
e s.html#q1
Bills damaged by fire, water, chemicals, decay should be sent to Department of the Treasury, Bureau of Engraving and Printing, Office of Currency Standards (OCS), Room 344-PD, Post Office Box 37048, Washington, D.C. 20013 for examination. The bills should also be clearly more than half intact.
Sources: http://www.bep.treas.gov/section.cfm/8/39
http://www.ustreas.gov/education/faq/currency/sal
Cover your eyes and click this link!
Quote: "And for those who dislike the idea of yet more plastic in their wallets, Moneo can be incorporated onto their existing credit cards -- something that has never been tried outside of France.".
Bad research. I personally owned such combined money/credit cards in both Germany and Sweden. The idea never went off, though... I don't see what's so new to get all-excited about.
Excellence: Moderate (mostly affected by comments on your karma)
The problem I see in using cash cards or other cards used for transactions is that there is always somebody else in control, most often the banks. When using regular cash I am in control - no one else can place any extra charges or regulate how it should be used.
In Sweden (where I live) it is quite normal to use cards when paying. To have a card, though, you first have to pay the bank ~$20 (on a yearly basis). The problem is that it is quite expensive for the shops to allow this service to be used. To compensate for this, the shop takes an extra charge when customers is paying with cards (this is becoming more and more common). In the end, the customer is charged _twice_ for helping the bank and the shop to reduce the expenses for handling cash.
In Sweden we have also had a system called "cash cards". These where anonymous cards which you placed a certain amount of money on. There were a couple of problems with this; still expensive for the shops (still controlled by the banks), maximum amount to be allowed on the cards were ~$150, not very user-friendly since you had to move cash from the normal bank account to the card, etc.
For a card system to be really functional, I think it has to be regulated in some way by the goverment. One possible way would be to have it intergrated with the driving license/identification card. (The risk for being tracked might be greater, though).
Personally, I don't think Moneo will be successful except if it's free
Actually, it is. My debit card was replaced a few months ago (because the previous one had run out), and I have Moneo on the new one -- for free.
What I'd have to pay for, I guess, would be the "basic" Moneo card (not linked to credit/debit card).
BTW, the article is wrong: France isn't alone in having e-cash "on top of" ordinary credit/debit cards. Sweden has had it (under the name "Cash") for a while. My Swedish credit card had Cash on it without me asking for anything, much as my French debit. Cash is widely accepted in Stockholm at least, much as Moneo is in Lyon (South-Eastern France).
Lap dancing houses will probably use house chips, similar to casinos. The biggest problem will be tipping buskers and similar things. I think coins are going to be around for a while yet.
Yes because they'll love turning over a cut of their "extra" money to the house.
Credit cards were a major step forward, but no one really considers them, "the Mark of the Beast" - this technology though is easily transferrable from a card in the hand to more secure "retina scan money" or "thumbprint money" - think about how these technologies are already being marketted. Think about how MOST 40 and unders would think, "Wow I will never get robbed and don't have to carry around a wallet anymore!"
Leave it to the French to lead the way in a move towards the end by A) Not leading to fight AntIchrists (Saddam) B) Leading the way for the "AntiChrist's monetary system" to become a reality.
Yell & scream & rant & rave... it's no use... you need a shaaaave ~ Bugs Bunny
Can this be applied to anonymous voting?
What if they have some kind of central database which have an backup of your cards? And...Don't forget that people can use a scissor to cut your paper money into two parts too~
Each card can hold a ~$100.
Once you crack the system you can refill $100 at a time, it is like printing money.
Who cares how much you did spend, if you have a printing press.
Reality has a liberal bias
When the $5 note came out with the Queen of England on it (I was about 15), we found you could flick a lighter flame under it and the Queens face would shrink to a gnarly prune. Definately polymer. The early hologrammed ones also had the flaw where you could rub off the hologram with a sweaty thumb but the quickly fixed that.
omico--
Well Moneo is really a wide scale operation of the banks to get paid for what they can't now, namely the cash you carry.
Moneo works this way, with your credit card (visa/MC), your bank will offer you to subscribe to Moneo for a yearly fee (around 10 EUR/USD), if you do so you can load up virtual cash onto your credit card (smart cards in France), up to 100 EUR.
In order for a shop to accept Moneo payments, they need a terminal rented by their bank for a monthly fee. The terminal will accept either credit cards or Moneo or both. You give your card, the terminal asks for your choice of Moneo or Credit and you can proceed with the transaction. Please note that the bank receives a fee for each payment done on the terminal, this fee being paid by the seller. If your balance is considered low by the terminal you will be offered a reloading of cash onto your card, this is something that interest the seller as this time he will receive a fee paid by the bank if your reload cash at his terminal.
If we sum up the whole system:
* customer pays a yearly fee for Moneo.
* shop owner rents a terminal to its bank for a monthly fee.
* on each payment a small fee is paid by the shop owner to the bank
* on each refill the bank pays a small fee to the shop owner
* if you loose your credit card with moneo, the credit card might be barred but the Moneo cash can still be used (you might loose up to 100 EUR)
So the real question is, why not simply make shop owners accept credit card payments for real small fees instead of setting up such a system ? The answer is simple, because the Moneo system is all profit for the banks, not for the consumer or shop owner, the BANKS!
And in order to deploy rapidly the Moneo system, the german technology was choosen (Geldkarte, 56 bit DES crypto!!!!), which means no PKI and rather weak crypto.... But the banks don't care, it's not their money, and very often all card loss insurances will not cover the money loaded onto Moneo....
With all thos elements my choice is clear, Moneo, NO!
We have Paycards now for a couple of years. They are included as a chip on the standard Eurocard. The problem is there aren't many places where it is accepted. I know of McDonalds (and the lady managed to mistake a tourists Mastercard with Paycard. Oh boy! I was starving in line) and the Munich Transport Authority but never saw any real shops where they would take it. Even worse, cigarette machines don't accept them. And this would be the killer-application since i always run out of change.
Good concept, lack of distribution.
cu,
Lispy
While I'm all for attracting attention to the lack of privacy some of these systems have, the idea of paying the banks to replace a system I am quite happy with doesn't appeal to me and I'm glad people are noticing that. The problem will come when we have no other choice but to use an electronic system that charges us for every transaction (or monthly fees for a limited number of transactions).
I think it's bad enough that my employer REQUIRES me to have my paycheck direct deposited. They say they do it to save money. Well, guess you gets stuck with paying the bank to have a bank account? (Luckily, right around the time they did this, a new bank opened up that doesn't charge fees for basic banking, but if it weren't for that, I would be paying just to get paid.)
Not as long as the use of this system includes an additional 'transaction fee', and the use of paper money does not.
I lived in a city where they tested electronic cash about five years ago. We had Mondex cards that worked at stores, in parking meters, on the bus, just about everywhere. Nobody used them. For parking meters they were great, but for anything else they were slower than cash because of the time it takes to write to the card. For larger purchases people prefered debit cards or credit cards. There just didn't seem to be any position that these filled in the market. That said, they had a few very cool features. If you had the Mondex phone (free from the bank) you could dial up your bank account, stick the card in the side of your phone, and transfer money out of your account. Then if you wanted to send money to a friend you called him up and he stuck his card in the phone and that was it. The card also came with a little reader (I've still got mine kicking around somewhere, with a card that has about three dollars on it) that could show you your past twenty transactions and allowed you to lock the card with a password, and a few other things. Of course, nobody was willing to lock the cards because once you forget the password any money on the card is gone forever. Another issue with the program was the infrastructure cost. Each parking meter the city put that could use these things cost $1500. Then the phone company put in all new pay phones to allow you to use these and do banking if you wanted. All the buses had machines put in, and all the stores got the little machines too. The cost was huge, and the only reason anyone bothered was that the banks funding the project were giving them away. Even when they were free though, nobody really wanted to use them. Cash is just too quick and easy to go away any tme soon.
I live in The Netherlands and we have a similar system. About the only useful place to use it however is parking meters. You see it costs about 25 Euro per day to park in Central Amsterdam on the street and feeding 25 Euro in coins isn't very convenient whereas sliding a card in the meter is. But if I can pay with a chip at a restuarant or pay with cash why not pay with cash? I have to have cash anyway because the chip isn't universally accepted! Lastly, the thing I hate is you can't tell how much is on the chip without being at a merchant/loading point. With cold hard cash you can always thumb through it and see what you have (reminding you to go to the ATM for example) but with smart card you have to remember this yourself, and have the same annoyance to re-charge it (like visiting an ATM) if it is due. So, unless there is a "killer app" - like the parking meter - or universal acceptance (eliminating the need to also carry cash) I don't think it'll take over.
We have something similar in Hong Kong for 5 years, it works excellent. Because it's contactless, it allows operation without withdrawing cards from wallets/ purses...And the transaction is done within 2 seconds.
You can take a look at the cool Features over here...
Not to mention the Mondex in Hong Kong died very quick too.
They tried it in Guelph Ontario in 1996. It was called MONDEX then. It failed.
l
http://www.efc.ca/pages/media/globe.01nov98.htm
Hey, i like the idea.
Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
To burn my cash, they have to steal it from me.
To demagnetize my pockets or purse, they merely have to put a big magnet in a purse or bag and ride a crowded bus or train, swinging it right at pocket or purse level.
Aside from this thing probably not using a magnetic strip, of course. But someone who wanted to trash dozens or hundres of credit and debit cards, this would be easy.
Infuriate left and right
We had those kind of cards around here few years ago, until they realized that some people were able to add money on cards. Increasing the balance counter on the card using iso card reader/writer. Oh and you can do it with phone cards and all others.
I was suddenly reminded of Credsticks in the Shadowrun RPG.
We've got the megacorporations. We've got the credsticks. All we need are advanced cybernetics and the return of magic and I can start LARPing Shadowrun without a DM.
Libertarians somehow believe that private businesses should be stronger than governments but weaker than individuals.
I'm surprised that has not been adopted by
clubs in America (at least the franchised
ones).
It would seem an even better encouragement for
patrons to have disposable cash on hand than the
in-house ATMs so many have adopted.
OK, so here's the rundown on it.
Postings belong to one of these categories:
a. Parochial bum
Std posting: " Here in Upper Slobbovia (or Ruritania, or whatever) we used this for well-nigh seven centuries, but not everybody(or everybody) uses it".
b. Yank yokel
Std posting: "How can it work if it doesn't do a central DB query every time? What if the DB is down? [after the slammer crashing of the Bank Of America ATM network]" (Because of the very primitive US banking system, yank yokels believe that the rest of the planet is as backward as they are).
c. Turbonerd
Std posting: "Goodness, in order to work properly and be anonymous one has obviously to do a QCM triple encoding for every non-null challenge in any transaction. You see?"
d. Impatient twit
Std posting (by the 300th time that somebody wonders how can you know how much money you have left on the card): " We have this device, see, where you put the bloody card and it will tell you how much bloody cash you have still left".
e. Know-it-all clown
Std posting: this one...
As a result, I don't know anything I didn't know before. I only know now that we live in a far more parochial and chauvinist world than I previously thought...
And yes, I live in Belgium and I have used the useless stupid thing which increases banks' profits zillions of time...
Thufir Hawat
Part-time Mentat
Sounds like the Octopus card availible in Hong Kong, it is an anonymous card availible - you can purchase food, use it on busses and for many other things. You also do not need to remove it from your wallet - it uses some rf tag like thing.
easy to spend what you cant see. and thats why credit card debt is at record levels.
I know you are psychotic, but please make an effort.
So in real beer thats equal to what, almost 2?
"I've lost the game, and no one is to blame"
"And...Don't forget that people can use a scissor to cut your paper money into two parts too~"
And don't forget that you can use a piece of tape to put it back together and it will still work.
Think about it. Governments are offering this.
Hmmm. I wonder if France is going to a cashless society to make it easier to surrender?
Glonoinha the MebiByte Slayer
if you have $45 in bills? What, do some people carry a 25 dollar bill?
Very cool.
A few thoughts:
The platform for the smartcard should be open. They say the cards don't require a pin to dispense cash... that should be optional. If it's the equivalent of an electronic wallet, I should be able to set some kind of access code if I choose.. to discourage theft.
No code should definately be the default, though.
Can two people use these cards to swap cash, or is it only for merchants? (enforces certain types of spending)
all in all, way to go france.
I agree that these should be free.
I guess the banks want a fee because they say it costs to process these cards. But if the system is completely electronic, about the only cost in paperwork would be in mailing out the yearly bills.
Let's say everyone in France got one of these cards and cash went out of existence. Wouldn't the banks need fewer people to count and transport change around. These cards would therefore SAVE the banks money. They should not charge.
It is like ATMs. The more ATMs a bank has the fewer tellers they need to hire but they still charge ATM fees. It is a money grab.
The title is misleading, IMO. If anyone can use it and it is not personalized to the true owner ... it's still cash to me. It may be on a different media, but this is in no way cashless.
... maybe a step, but a small one overall.
Plus, given the incompatibilities in currencies like this from various places, it just brings back many of the problems that occurred before centralized banking.
Doesn't sound like much of a good thing to me
It is more productive to voice thoughtful opinions (reply) than to judge (moderate) others.
How much cash do you usually carry (and what currency)?
Myself: I usually have about c100,000 (Costa Rican colones).. which is roughly $US 260.
When I lived in Canada, I'd usually have about $CA 50
But which is easier to counterfeit: paper money, or Moneo money?
Does't the card violate a general rule?: NEVER turst the client.
I guess we'll be pulling your ass out of the flames again soon. Amazing.
Why would I ever want to use a debit card when I can instead:
Use a credit card and earn 1% cash back on all purchases.
Float the banks cash for 40+ days.
Makes no sense. Get a cash back credit card. The Chase Stockback card works well for me. www.stockback.com
In the U.S. (and many other countries), banks are required only to keep a certain percentage of their accountholders' funds on hand, in reserve - as cash, usually. It's called a "fractional reserve," for obvious reasons. It's also one of the major reasons for things like:
- Argentina's recent economic crisis. People crammed into their banks to withdraw their savings. After a while, the banks closed; they simply ran out of reserves, and people lost their accounts. A fair amount of loans were being defaulted upon, too, so the banks weren't making any money from them that could add to reserves.
- The Great Depression. See Argentina. Even worse, most banking regulation didn't even exist then; the banks could do just about whatever they pleased, including loaning out as much of their accountholders' money as they could.
Utilizing magnetic schemata since
I'm the writer of the parent post, which is currently rated highly but is nevertheless quite wrong in its description of the implementation of the procedure. Others have corrected my misunderstanding, which, if I'm not still mistaken, goes something like this:
Step 1) $100 are downloaded from John Smith's bank account to user card #U12345.
Step 2) Smith approaches Adult Store merchant with $80 worth of embarrassingly large and bumpy sex toys.
Step 3) User Card #U12345 securely transfers $80 to Merchant Card. This transaction takes place off of a network.
Step 4) Smith walks away with sex toys in black plastic bag. Bag later breaks on the bus, contents come spilling out.
Step 5) Merchant subseqently uploads large sum of money (including Smith's $80) to bank. Bank is unaware of original sources of money.
It's the fact that Step 3 takes place without authorization from a central network which makes this anonymous and potentially superior to a regular debit card transaction.
Please "securely transfer" my mod points from the parent post to this one. Thanx!
I'm wondering about other form factors now. Would it be more practical to have a user "card" in the form of one of those keychain thingies? Or perhaps a bracelet with a tiny dongle that plugs into the merchant's reader. Further, the user ought to be able to require mandatory PIN usage on his/her card. It won't help if the card is lost, but at least no-one else could profit from your misfortune. Put your name and phone number on the card and it might actually be returned to you. Finally, what's to stop this anonymous transaction from being the basis of a money laundering scheme? And if there is nothing preventing it, what are the odds that this would be allowable in the US?
There are two kinds of people: 1) those who start arrays with one and 1) those who start them with zero.
on the heels of the paperless office...
Which looks like it may occur sometime after hell freezes over. I'm not worried. computers were going to reduce the amount of office paper, but we use more. We keep getting "closer and closer" to a cashless society, yet the govt's print more money and mint more coins than each previous year...ain't happening.
That store did have a UPS. It was for the emergency lights (that are required by law) and for the server in the back room. The original plan called for the registers to be powered by this as well, but they tend to draw a bit too much power for even the huge UPS (remember, they are lighting an entire store and keeping up the server).
So the registers had their power cut automagically by the UPS because they were going to use up all of the power too fast.
Work sucked, until it became unemployment, when it became slightly more tolerable. -Tet
Why would i want this instead of a credit card (or a debit card)?
Maybe i'm missing something big, but here's how i see it:
Moneo: you transfer your money to the card up front, so you're no longer making interest on your bank account.
Credit card: you pay 30 days AFTER you spend your money, thereby continuing to make interest.
Moneo: anual fee of 6 to 13 dollars.
Credit card: no fees at all, as long as you pay it off every month.
Moneo: loose it, there goes your money.
Credit card: loose it, report it, no loss.
Moneo: no added consumer protection that i can see..
Credit card: tons of consumer protection
It sounds like there will also be added hassle of 'recharging' the moneo card, and mentally remembering how much is left (only $107 can be stored on it..)
And as far as the 'you can use it for small purchases' argument goes.. I regularly use my credit card for purchases as small as a can of soda, or a burger at mcdonalds (tho i've been laying off the greeseburgers lately)
--sean
If there is no identifying info, how do you trust it? if it doesn't connect to a database to verify itself, its got to be easy to fake...even if it does have a SMART card in it. And if its electronic its even harder than tracking a counterfitter...so my question is, how do I become an authorized refiller?
I tried for 5 years to come up with a clever sig...only to realize that I am not clever.
The money is anonymous, but it's numbered.
A legitimate "add cash" operation leaves a record in the database.
When the user tries to pass the counterfeit card, the database is checked and when it finds, for example, that "card 0x8782a321=54.21" but the card says "card=100.00" the POS terminal knows it's counterfeit. The integrated security camera clicks on, homes in on your face, and e-mails your picture to the authorities.
I like that. We in theory could do this now with old-fashioned bills. One camera (with a *very good* machine vision system) looks over the shoulder of the cashier. Camera one is looking at the serial numbers of the bills. Camera two is looking at the customer.
Camera one is hooked into a database that tracks the locations of bills and serial numbers (think WheresGeorge on steroids). If the system discovers a bill passed with SN that isn't in the database, or that is already in a till someplace else, the customer becomes a counterfeiting suspect. This obviously requires some sophistication. For example, a bill may not be in the till anymore, but if it left the till in Hawii, and enterred a till in Maine 45 minutes later, you know the bill in Maine is counterfeit. The program would obviously have to be updated if commercial hypersonic transports ever became available (!).
Such a system won't catch a counterfeiter every time, but the odds would catch up with him. A more cumbersome system that doesn't use machine vision and requires the cashier to run bills through a scanner could probably be implemented in a much shorter time. Building RFID tags into the money makes even better sense if they are robust enough, but ongoing passage of "microwaved" money would make you a counterfeiting suspect even if your money was being legitimately zapped..
I like this. It is, in some ways, the antithesis of "the beast" because they are numbering the money as opposed to numbering the people.
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
Unless you're at an actual cash machine, in which case your mark has to be pretty stupid not to wonder why you don't just withdraw the $60 right there.
Being a college student, I am usually cashless.
--Joey
Anybody remember FASA's rpg Shadowrun with it's anonymous credstick money, sounds about the same.
In canada we have debit cards. Seems to be the same but with better security (PIN for purchase) and more flexibility. I guess the only plus of the french card is that its anonymous.
Actually, I read a treatis which tried to demonstrate that VISA was the number 666 if you used ancient alphabets and used a 'Z' instead of an 'S', (which everybody pronounces that way anyway). --Not numerologist stuff. Just that in contemporary languages which were around during the writing of the Bible, 'VI' = 6, 'Z' was written like a 6, and in another language's alphabet, 'A' was also written like a 6.
Not that it really matters beyond a simple indication of what's going on. --Those in the know feel that the whole "Those marked will be sent to Hell" charade is just a corruption of the bible intended to create mass, society-wide anxiety. (Fear is Food). Just look at the marketing and the set-up. . . Millions upon millions of good Christians know about the "Mark of the Beast" thing, they're already programmed to feel guilt and anxiety over pretty much everything, and check it out. .
Unless you have your very own number of the beast, you won't be able to buy food!
This particular manipulation has more to do with creating havoc than it does with any garbage about heaven and hell.
Oh, and just as a point of interest. .
"George Walker Bush" boils down to '6' in each of the three major numerologist's systems currently in use; the Pythagorean System, and the Chaldean System, and the basic 26-letters-of-the-alphabet-assigned-numbers-1-thr
Each system gets about a third of the attention of numerolgist's at large. So the logic is, Georgie Porgie's name reduced to 6 three times = 666.
Ain't math fun?
-Fantastic Lad "--Quick mod him 'Funny'! Peace of mind lies in ridicule. .
I'm in Paris, France, and I've yet to see anybody use this "Moneo" stuff.
:-)
Shops, groceries, stores, etc... don't want to use the system because it is 1/ costly to install (card reader/connection with the bank) 2/ costly to use (a percentage of the transaction goes to Moneo)
Customers don't understand the benefits of this card. What's the point, except eliminating the petty cash in our pockets?
The credit/debit card has a point: you don't need to carry huge amount of cash around, which is unsafe. But who cares about losing / being stolen 10 euros?
Also, customers don't use it because very few businesses use it (incidentally, businesses don't use it because there are not enough customers equipped with the card
Newspapers and consumer associations complain that all common transactions will be spied on (for example if the police asks to the bank to disclose your last transactions)
Anyway: the only transactions banks don't control yet are cash transactions. This is why they're trying to release this non-sense.
This stuff might catch on one day; but I really doubt it.
Hello! I'm a disaster waiting to happen!
Imagine if most people started to use this sort of device and the record of transactions wasn't centralized... a person's expendatures wouldn't be an open book for Homeland Security. This is just awful, horrific thing. How is Big Brother going to gaurentee that you are a Patriot if they san't observe your every financial move... horror of horrors. I know this is sending chills up John Ashcroft's spine; so thank god it'll never make it to the US. And for good reasons, it is the perfect for terrorist funding.
However, the idea itself will eventually catch on. There was a story on /. a few months back about a similar system which integrated into a watch, which you could wave at a the register to do a similar transaction, Jedi mind-trick style. Once these are available, and quicker than cash, we will really see the end of paper money.
you can buy drugs with cash. i don't think my dealer has a smartcard reader.
...as long as an e-cash system doesn't railroad people into making transactions that can be monitored or regulated by some third party like the government.
Digital cash is a terrible mistake:
- You can't loan someone 5 bucks.
- You lose privacy.
- Your card can be duplicated.
- A software or electrical error can wipe out your money.
These points counteract each other; if you attempt to solve one of them, the other problems grow larger.One thing that seems to underlay the digerati's love of digital cash is a lack of understanding about counterfeiting. Falsifying paper currency is difficult
Digital cash, shit!
[You have a stable society when some nut guns down a schoolyard and the law doesn't change.]
A similar card (called PMB, for "Porta-moedas Multi-Banco") has been used in Portugal for several years now. It's accepted by most shops, by phone booths and even by taxies. But I don't know anyone who uses it regularly, because it needs to be "charged" at ATMs. So people prefer to use their regular ATM card, that is also accepted almost anywhere (except taxies), and draws money directly from their bank account (after they enter their code). I suspect the same thing will happen in France; when faced with a choice between security and commodity, most people pick the latter.
RMN
~~~
They don't take Interac in Toronto?
They sure did all over BC & Alberta, even the little crappy shops in the mountains... everyone takes interac.
I think I used it quite a bit in Toronto too.. but I could be mistaken.
I never had a check book until I moved to the states. In Canada, I always paid everything through debit cards, which is more secure than check cards in the US. My landlord would debit my monthly rent right off my account. All major utilities could be paid with this technique as well.
I never had more than 20-40$ in my pockets and that was only used for small restaurants or vending machines. Checks? I only got those from my grand parents at christmas.
It's amazing that, in the US, such a low security (and easily counterfit-able) piece of low tech still runs the economy.
I will always smile, yet get angry at people writing checks for a pack of gum and monopolizing the line for 5 minutes. But that's another story...
-- Leeeter than leet
With this "smart" card, if one looses it, then he/she looses all the money. With proper cash, there is no way to loose all of them at once, unless stored at one wallet only.
And when someone robs you, if he finds the card, then bye bye all the money, where as with cash you can always hide them in various places in your clothes.
Not to mention that a single card does not give you an idea of how much money you really have. It is not the same to hold 1000 dollars in your hands and having a card that contains 1000 virtual dollars.
This card is another lame idea.
At 6 % unemployment and climbing, we seem to be heading very quickly towards a "cashless society"
IANAE (economist)
From my point of view, there is no real change moving from the current system, which involves swapping tokens, with and electronic one, which swaps bits. In either case you are still at the mercy of the banks and the government. Either can be tracked (though the former is more difficult), and either can be counterfeited. In either case, the collapse of the government will render the money useless.
Precious metals have lost much of their intrinsic value because of the use of paper money - this true especially since the US and others have moved off the gold standard. We now define gold's value as how much you can get for paper, rather than the other way around. We shifted the idea - the commodity bit, if you will - from gold to paper.
I'm not saying this is bad, I'm not saying it's good. Everyone should realize, though, that whatever the medium, money is an illusion. It's a shared idea that something has value, and in many cases exactly what that value is.
The simplest way to quash this (and there are several examples in the responses above and below, depending on your browse prefs) is to not use it.
main(){char I,l,O[]={'-',1-1,0,(1<<5)-1,0+'-',-10-1,-10,11-0,
There is no US law mandating use of a specific "money". Anyone can use a money they invent. But will anyone else use it?
Inside the money currency banking fee-based transaction system all solutions come out looking like cash. Until we get beyond money as a
"store of value" and "store of currency" mentality the world is stuck with cash.
I go weeks without touching cash. Debt cards are the same frekin thing only my bank keeps record of what I do. Heck they have better records than I do.
Everyone is just scared to lose a fistfull of cash to a card. Personally I'm glad to see money gone, and this solution sounds more anonymous than whats ALREADY in place.
Now everyone SHOULD be worried about total anononimity. Having BOTH methods in place is good. If I was to lose the card with my paycheck on it, I'd be pissed. of course if I wanna go buy something I wouldn't be proud of or if it's personal, Then I will use a card like this. This is the ONLY way to make it work because everyone will not accept a debt card society.
Honestly I don't know what I'd go and buy that I was sensitive about to the point that I'd need this card (hell I buy crap at the Adult superstore in vegas on my debt card.), but it's good to know it's there...like payphones(whats that?).
-------
Thats my 2 cents...hey gimme back my card!... bastard machine ate my card!
THE WORLD IS GOING TO END!!!! eventually.
... you suck!
franz, the german...
we have a similiar system here in germany. it is called "Geldkarte" ("money card") and exists as an additional chip on your bank card.
;)
as i read some comments from belgium, the netherlands, sweden and luxembourg, it seems to me that france is just a late adopter...
crucial to the whole system is the acceptance from the vendors. here in germanx you can use the card at mcdonalds, burger king, some gas stations and a few grocery stores. you can reload your card at the local bank AND AT MCDONALDS (weird, huh?)
in a way it never really took off. i used it once in year 2001 and since then i carry around a debit of ca. 7 euros. WOW! and, by the way: i did observe the "strange look" from cashiers, when someone was asking for payment by money card.
if you could use a system like this to pay, e.g. your parking fees and if it was easy and cheap for street vendors and smaller businesses to get at the necessary card readers there would be a possible acceptance.
if it works in france, i have to congratulate our european neighbours.
the computer is online
i am not at it
what a waste of ressources
All different countries should use the same system. I already had the problem that I could not pay for coffee or cool drinks at the machine in Luxemburg because only these so-called 'cash-cards' could be used. The problem was that my Belgian cash-card (PROTON) was not compatible.
Mike
we have them in 2 flavours in singapore.
one is a contactless card primary used for taking our public transport (mass rapid transport aka mrt and public buses)
the other, for our electronic road pricing aka ERP system. (u drive, they deduct.)
the only way to implement these, force it down our throat. there is no choice, u either use them, or don't take public transport or don't drive a car/bike.
and why is there 2 duplicated systems? don't ask me, ask the govt.
The end is near. Do not take the mark of the Beast.
Question.
How does the Merchant verify that he has only $80 dollars (assuming Smith is his only customer that day). Sure the machine says $80 but technically couldn't the machine say anything you want it too? Is there another couple steps in there thats missing? Whats to stop someone from hacking the machine? Will it be like cash money where the bank has to report deposits of $10,000 or more?
In Singapore, cashcards are a part of life - they haven't penetrated so-far-in as to be the basic method of monetary exchange - you still pay cash a burger or a bowl of noodles - but they are common throughout.
For one, you need one to drive on the road - certain more highly commercial or dense areas have an automatic electronic checkpoint which deducts value from a cashcard (mounted on the inside dashboard of your car) whenever you drive past them.
Certain parking lots have upgraded their facilities to allow for patrons to use cashcards to pay for parking fees, eliminating the need to go to a machine and queue up for the payment of your parking lot ticket.
The National Library (and the network of local libraries) no longer accept cash for the payment of outstanding fines or the fees from further extension of books. Everything in the libraries (payment wise) are done by cashcards.
The cola machines here have also started to turn to the use of both coins and cashcards. It's quite easy - just pop the card in, pick the drink and there's no hassle in coins.
Moreover, new machines are starting to pop up nowadays - standing public computers where people can pay anything from fines to bills of different companies. With those, you can use your cashcard as well - and while you're at it (as I often do) you can buy tickets directly off these machines for the show you want.
And in terms of availability - cashcards are sold and can be topped up in all petrol stations, 7 eleven's or the equivalent. You can get them at bookstores and malls as well.
All in all... It's kind of strange reading how bad the technology is or how impossible it is to have it implemented, and the even lesser chances of success especially when more and more here people have taken the cashcard for granted as a very simple, flexible, multi-use version of money. I guess I could rattle on about it, but I think you'd get the picture, and I guess it's a good way for other people around the world to see that it is possible and how it does and can affect an entire society in it's implementation.