Downside: The Z80 is more complex, more register/register pairs to track and the added complexity of a separate IO bus. Also, a more powerful and complex set of operands.
Upside: Parity with the 8080 means the conceptual model more closely matches modem PC's, including the IO bus, more registers.
The reverence for the 6502 comes from the fact that many Slashdoters over 35 learned to program on Commodore, Atari and Apple computers, all of which are 6502 based. With only 6 items to track and only 1 stack, it is much easier to learn on. As your programming skills increase, you add routines to your library such as multiplication, divide and block move/compares.
The Z80 has way, way, way to many registers to comfortably keep in mind at all time for someone learning to program. That was MY thought back, in 1984 when first exposed to it. Since a register can be 16 bit (AX) or 2 8 bit reigsters (AH and HL).A new programmer has to be mindful of not just the accumulator A on the 6502, but AX, BX, CX, and DX, and if they are 16 bit or 8 bit at the moment AND the 2nd register set that can be swapped in. With power comes complexity. For basics, the 6502 has it hands down.
What is assembly language like on the TS-1000? The 6502 is a wonderful chip to learn on. Accumulator, X-Register, Y-Register, Staus Flags (7), Stack Pointer and Program Counter. That is 6 items to track at all times. Also the I/O, bitmapped graphics, spirtes, user modifiable character sets. There are a LOT of basic concepts that can be taught there.
Old School here too. I do what I have to, to make a living. For fun, I program in FORTH and store my source code in 1K Screens represented as 16 lines of 64 characters each.
Simplicity and elegance is what I am looking for. A new Forth definition should be about 7 to 9 words long (not including noise like + - / ). If I somehow end up in a situation where I run out of room, It means I have used 15 lines for creating my definition. Which is another way of saying "Hey! your doing it wrong".
I think programming should be taught on an emulator of a Commodore64. Once you learn the computer from one end to the other and how to take advantage of all of it and understand all of its concepts, then you can move onto programming in a more abstract environment.
Color is used to denote different states. The equivalent in C would be where includes are in RED, and functions are in blue while their parameters are in green and some {} are no longer needed because of the color coding.
Mind you, it totally sucks if you are color blind. But you are able to create significantly terser code because of the amount of syntax that is represented by color.
The companies that bought these applications because they didn't realize this would mean that the applications would not work in other operating systems.
I don't think it would matter. I know when I did development I had a heck of a time if I told a customer that 80% of their users used IE and 20% used Netscape and I needed to spend time coding for both. Most were quite content for you to code for only IE. After all, it is what they ran at the office and what was on their computer when they got it from Dell.
And at any large business that spent many thousands of dollars on a large custom written system knew they were writing for IE only. After all, Microsoft would never pull the rug out from under them and they knew they could dictate what browser and version of java or activex component their employees would run. The mirgration from Win98 to WinME to Win2k to WinXP showed that IE and VB6 were rock solid, cross-platform products that Microsoft would always take care of.
Development was easy. IE 5.1 and Visual Basic 6 would live forever. Cheap computers, cheap programmers, and cheap network administrators. The good times will never end.
A memo is not written to inform the reader but to protect the writer.
And suddenly your eyes are open to the truth.
Re:It is free as in freedom but not free as in bee
on
Desktop Linux Is Dead
·
· Score: 1
To each his own.
In my case, every individual who I have switched over knows so little about taking care of their computer it has been a net gain for them.
I am doing the work to keep the systems working, but it much less work than if I was helping them to keep windows running AND clean off the spyware every 3 months.
There is a major difference. If someone came over to my place and saw my cool Mac, and said they like how it looks and works, what do the need to do to get one? I tell them the need to throw away their current PC and spend another $1,200 to $1,800 to get a cool Mac like mine. Growth comes at a hefty price for Apple.
On the other hand, when I show someone my cool linux desktop and mention how it does not have a problem with spyware, adware, viruses, or needing to keep antivirus software up to date. AND I offter to install it on their computer and show them how to use it. Let's just say that between me and my bother we are converting at least one computer a month to Linux.
Is it going to overtake Windows tomorrow? No. Will it ever overtake Windows? Who knows? I do see a day where Linux comfortably sets atop a 20% desktop share in the US, more than 30% in Europe, more than 60% in may developing nations, and pretty much rules the roost in the server market.
3 years ago, I was the only person I knew who ran Linux. Now, I know at least 10 or 15 others. And some of them have become even more hard core than I am about running Linux and only Linux on their hardware.
I think rumors of Desktop Linux death are greatly exaggerated.
Yes, Paradox for DOS works quite well. I still use it on a regular basis for various tasks. I can concentrate on working with my data, not manipulating windows.
From a community perspective, it doesn't work this way. Since there are (usually) no direct profits from open source projects, there is virtually no competition. Furthermore, open source code creates an atmosphere of cooperation between teams because they can happily use each others' ideas and code. The "reward" is simply in becoming well known for creating a useful product, and market share isn't even a relevant concept.
These are two very different development paradigms, and perceiving a "conflict of interest" when there are multiple teams really just highlights the corporate mindset and lack of appreciation for FOSS community values.
This could have worked out much like RedHat and Fedora work out. Try lots of things in OpenOffice, and what works best, move into Star Office. Oracle has the money to have their own programmers re-implement any code someone is not willing to sign over. This way at NO COST TO THEM they could really see what ideas work.
Instead they see Libre Office as a competitor. Oracles big problem is that Libra Office gives any non-Oracle employee an opportunity to contribute code and see it actually used, instead of merely signing it over to Oracle and "hope" that Oracle will decide to use the code.
The proof is in the pudding. I think in a years time we will find one project has added may features, fixed many bugs and has made many improvements. I think the other project will be stagnant and will have made very little real progress.
With one group consisting of paid programmers and many hoops for people to contribute code to jump through with no voice and no guarantee the code will ever be used. While the other group will allow anyone to have a voice in saying why they think a patch they contributed is good solution to a particular problem. I am very comfortable predicting which group with stagnate and which group will flourish.
And my whole problem with this is it is "human nature". To some degree trying to keep things civil is a good thing.
On the other hand, to much political correctness is bad. In an attempt to make everything fair, to make life which is inherently unfair a better place, they go to far. When the degree of censure that is required literally corrupts your thinking process in the long run, we all suffer. When there is no room for anything but "normal" speech. Besides killing off the base incorrect speech, you also kill of anything that is extraordinary.
It is a self esteem building world that wants to protect those who get D's from feeling bad about themselves by lowering everyone to the standard of D work being acceptable. Which then forces them to punish those who wold soar above a "D" and desire to do better.
The problem with political correctness is it does not make us better people and it does not help the world become a better place.
The very same person who would call me out for using a term like "ghay" because homosexuals would be offended would not think twice about calling someone like me who is a conservative, constitution and founding Fathers leaning Republican a "Tea Bagger"
Generally speaking those more "liberal" only mean "open minided" when they want what they do to be accepted when it is outside of the cultural "norm". When someone who is more conservative would like something they do that is outside of the cultural norm accepted, liberals don't use the word "open minded" any more, instead they use terms like "fascist" and "raciest" to describe how I would chose to live my life.
There is no small amount of hypocrisy in how they go about their way. In congress when the Democrats held power, they wanted to put in a rule that would prevent the "minority party" from being able to bring things to the floor. Then when they became the minority party they said it was not fair to silence the minority and asked the the republicans would give up majority seats on comities so the minority would have an equal voice. Well the Republicans did it and were thus unable to accomplish many of the things they had promised they would try to do if they were elected. Then for not getting the job done, they lost the majority.
Do you think when the Democrats again became the majority party, they allowed Republicans an equal number of seats on the comities so that the minority voice would not be snuffed out? No way, they held the majority and they expected to wield all the power it could give them.
Whether you call them progressives, liberals, or democrats, they are only open minded when it favors them. Please don't take that the wrong way, there are exceptions to every rule. I know there are liberals out there who may disagree with me, and no matter if they had more or less power than me, believe we should all meet together on the same field by the same rules. For the most part, those are not the liberals who hold any real power.
And believe me, as someone who was born with a moderate speech impediment but a high IQ. I have spent a lifetime being called "retarded" behind my back and to my face and am pretty much told I have to deal with people using that phrase. It does not matter how much in my childhood I was taunted with it. It is acceptable to call things, situations and people retarded.
I have been stigmatized enough in my life and am old enough to remember when you could speak politically incorrect and not have to worry about what you said offending someone who was taller, shorter, lighter, darker, faster, slower, etc, etc, etc than you were. And what I have seen is the people who yell the loudest about it are the least likely to give you a break when they are being inconsiderate.
Well... Honestly, look at what the Document Foundation did.
They forked the project, and then asked Oracle to donate the name to them. While, at the same time, asking Oracle to join the "new" foundation.
When Oracle purchased these assets from Sun, part of the valuation should have included the possibility of the product being "forked". The more out of step with the community Oracle plans were, the greater the possibility of a fork.
There is no room for a lawsuit, as long as when you fork GPL code you abide by the GPL, there is not much you can do but toss sticks and stones and call names.
It all depends on what Oracle wants to do. If they put enough paid programmers to work on open office. They could keep it more feature-rich than Libre Office. That would require a real investment. Oracle does not know how to handle open-source projects properly. The odds are it would end up an epic fail.
Oracle knew what they were going to do with regards to Open Solaris, Open Office, MySQL and Java. They knew, or should have known, and taken into account when they valued what they were paying SUN the potential for any of these projects to "fork" and compete against or destroy their own open source offerings.
If you gave the user the choice of a) stick with Microsoft Office b) Get a $200.00 bonus for switching to LibreOfice and not complaining about it.
I think they were saying that for $200 the average office worker would admit that Libre Office can do everything that they do on a daily basis, and if they have experience with Office 2003/2002/2000/97 it will not be an overly difficult transition.
I could be wrong, but I believe that most companies that want to re-image machines must start with hardware that already has a legal copy of Windows on it AND an additional CAL to be able to image the machine.
So the CAL is not a full license, it is only a license to install an image onto a machine for which you already have a valid MS license.
Really, it's only the "community" and the zealots (many of whom are here on/.) that really give a crap about the ideology
I have given a lot of thought to this subject. In regards to politics, copyright law, and free software. It is only the nuts that are unreasonable that change the world. The question is all a matter of timing and is right now the time to fight. There are those who fight to soon and are marginal and die on the sidelines. Then there is a time when people are just a little to soon and are considered inflexible, eccentric or a little nutty.
Take a look at the founding of the United States, or of Women's Rights, or the Abolition of Slavery, in England, France, the United States etc. Going from horses to cars, harnessing steam, the world being round. All things that we take for granted now. But there was a time people could be killed for expressing such views. Then there was a time they were just considered nutty. Then there was a time where someone was unreasonable and the world bent to their view, instead of the other way around.
The better question is how principled are we. With all intellectual honesty, it is right that people should be able to govern their lives, have religious freedom, for women to have rights, for a person to not be a slave and enjoy the rewards for the work of the sweat of their brow? Is the same to be said of software freedom? If it is we should stand for it and bend the world to our will. It is up to each of us to determine in the short term if we should run non-free software to get work done now.
If I sound crazy, then it was just to soon to say this.
Another factor is the conceptual model is simpler. It is possible to know the entire layout of one of these classic machines. The CPU, instruction set, registers, I/O chips and memory layout. You can exactly where a program will load in memory. A 6502 has an Accumulator, X register, Y register, 6 flags, a stack pointer and a program counter. It is possible to know exactly how the computer works on both a hardware and software level.
Try that with a PC, what happens when you flip the power switch. Well which BIOS, what POST tests, what hardware? What happens up to the point where the boot sector is loaded? What happens after control has been turned over to the boot loader? What about the hardware? There are so many combinations, so many drivers, etc. How do you even go about teaching these things when you can't be sure of what hardware you will have in the classroom?
The classic machines flatten this out. Even in emulation they are very helpful tools for teaching.
Slashdot Mirror
Downside: The Z80 is more complex, more register/register pairs to track and the added complexity of a separate IO bus. Also, a more powerful and complex set of operands.
Upside: Parity with the 8080 means the conceptual model more closely matches modem PC's, including the IO bus, more registers.
The reverence for the 6502 comes from the fact that many Slashdoters over 35 learned to program on Commodore, Atari and Apple computers, all of which are 6502 based. With only 6 items to track and only 1 stack, it is much easier to learn on. As your programming skills increase, you add routines to your library such as multiplication, divide and block move/compares.
The Z80 has way, way, way to many registers to comfortably keep in mind at all time for someone learning to program. That was MY thought back, in 1984 when first exposed to it. Since a register can be 16 bit (AX) or 2 8 bit reigsters (AH and HL).A new programmer has to be mindful of not just the accumulator A on the 6502, but AX, BX, CX, and DX, and if they are 16 bit or 8 bit at the moment AND the 2nd register set that can be swapped in. With power comes complexity. For basics, the 6502 has it hands down.
What is assembly language like on the TS-1000? The 6502 is a wonderful chip to learn on. Accumulator, X-Register, Y-Register, Staus Flags (7), Stack Pointer and Program Counter. That is 6 items to track at all times. Also the I/O, bitmapped graphics, spirtes, user modifiable character sets. There are a LOT of basic concepts that can be taught there.
Old School here too. I do what I have to, to make a living. For fun, I program in FORTH and store my source code in 1K Screens represented as 16 lines of 64 characters each.
Simplicity and elegance is what I am looking for. A new Forth definition should be about 7 to 9 words long (not including noise like + - / ). If I somehow end up in a situation where I run out of room, It means I have used 15 lines for creating my definition. Which is another way of saying "Hey! your doing it wrong".
I think programming should be taught on an emulator of a Commodore64. Once you learn the computer from one end to the other and how to take advantage of all of it and understand all of its concepts, then you can move onto programming in a more abstract environment.
Perhaps you like the idea of ColorForth http://www.colorforth.com/
Color is used to denote different states. The equivalent in C would be where includes are in RED, and functions are in blue while their parameters are in green and some {} are no longer needed because of the color coding.
Mind you, it totally sucks if you are color blind. But you are able to create significantly terser code because of the amount of syntax that is represented by color.
The companies that bought these applications because they didn't realize this would mean that the applications would not work in other operating systems.
I don't think it would matter. I know when I did development I had a heck of a time if I told a customer that 80% of their users used IE and 20% used Netscape and I needed to spend time coding for both. Most were quite content for you to code for only IE. After all, it is what they ran at the office and what was on their computer when they got it from Dell.
And at any large business that spent many thousands of dollars on a large custom written system knew they were writing for IE only. After all, Microsoft would never pull the rug out from under them and they knew they could dictate what browser and version of java or activex component their employees would run. The mirgration from Win98 to WinME to Win2k to WinXP showed that IE and VB6 were rock solid, cross-platform products that Microsoft would always take care of.
Development was easy. IE 5.1 and Visual Basic 6 would live forever. Cheap computers, cheap programmers, and cheap network administrators. The good times will never end.
Darrel McBrides evil twin?
A memo is not written to inform the reader but to protect the writer.
And suddenly your eyes are open to the truth.
To each his own.
In my case, every individual who I have switched over knows so little about taking care of their computer it has been a net gain for them.
I am doing the work to keep the systems working, but it much less work than if I was helping them to keep windows running AND clean off the spyware every 3 months.
There is a major difference. If someone came over to my place and saw my cool Mac, and said they like how it looks and works, what do the need to do to get one? I tell them the need to throw away their current PC and spend another $1,200 to $1,800 to get a cool Mac like mine. Growth comes at a hefty price for Apple.
On the other hand, when I show someone my cool linux desktop and mention how it does not have a problem with spyware, adware, viruses, or needing to keep antivirus software up to date. AND I offter to install it on their computer and show them how to use it. Let's just say that between me and my bother we are converting at least one computer a month to Linux.
Is it going to overtake Windows tomorrow? No. Will it ever overtake Windows? Who knows? I do see a day where Linux comfortably sets atop a 20% desktop share in the US, more than 30% in Europe, more than 60% in may developing nations, and pretty much rules the roost in the server market.
3 years ago, I was the only person I knew who ran Linux. Now, I know at least 10 or 15 others. And some of them have become even more hard core than I am about running Linux and only Linux on their hardware.
I think rumors of Desktop Linux death are greatly exaggerated.
Yes, Paradox for DOS works quite well. I still use it on a regular basis for various tasks. I can concentrate on working with my data, not manipulating windows.
From a community perspective, it doesn't work this way. Since there are (usually) no direct profits from open source projects, there is virtually no competition. Furthermore, open source code creates an atmosphere of cooperation between teams because they can happily use each others' ideas and code. The "reward" is simply in becoming well known for creating a useful product, and market share isn't even a relevant concept.
These are two very different development paradigms, and perceiving a "conflict of interest" when there are multiple teams really just highlights the corporate mindset and lack of appreciation for FOSS community values.
This could have worked out much like RedHat and Fedora work out. Try lots of things in OpenOffice, and what works best, move into Star Office. Oracle has the money to have their own programmers re-implement any code someone is not willing to sign over. This way at NO COST TO THEM they could really see what ideas work.
Instead they see Libre Office as a competitor. Oracles big problem is that Libra Office gives any non-Oracle employee an opportunity to contribute code and see it actually used, instead of merely signing it over to Oracle and "hope" that Oracle will decide to use the code.
The proof is in the pudding. I think in a years time we will find one project has added may features, fixed many bugs and has made many improvements. I think the other project will be stagnant and will have made very little real progress.
With one group consisting of paid programmers and many hoops for people to contribute code to jump through with no voice and no guarantee the code will ever be used. While the other group will allow anyone to have a voice in saying why they think a patch they contributed is good solution to a particular problem. I am very comfortable predicting which group with stagnate and which group will flourish.
And my whole problem with this is it is "human nature". To some degree trying to keep things civil is a good thing.
On the other hand, to much political correctness is bad. In an attempt to make everything fair, to make life which is inherently unfair a better place, they go to far. When the degree of censure that is required literally corrupts your thinking process in the long run, we all suffer. When there is no room for anything but "normal" speech. Besides killing off the base incorrect speech, you also kill of anything that is extraordinary.
It is a self esteem building world that wants to protect those who get D's from feeling bad about themselves by lowering everyone to the standard of D work being acceptable. Which then forces them to punish those who wold soar above a "D" and desire to do better.
The problem with political correctness is it does not make us better people and it does not help the world become a better place.
The very same person who would call me out for using a term like "ghay" because homosexuals would be offended would not think twice about calling someone like me who is a conservative, constitution and founding Fathers leaning Republican a "Tea Bagger"
Generally speaking those more "liberal" only mean "open minided" when they want what they do to be accepted when it is outside of the cultural "norm". When someone who is more conservative would like something they do that is outside of the cultural norm accepted, liberals don't use the word "open minded" any more, instead they use terms like "fascist" and "raciest" to describe how I would chose to live my life.
There is no small amount of hypocrisy in how they go about their way. In congress when the Democrats held power, they wanted to put in a rule that would prevent the "minority party" from being able to bring things to the floor. Then when they became the minority party they said it was not fair to silence the minority and asked the the republicans would give up majority seats on comities so the minority would have an equal voice. Well the Republicans did it and were thus unable to accomplish many of the things they had promised they would try to do if they were elected. Then for not getting the job done, they lost the majority.
Do you think when the Democrats again became the majority party, they allowed Republicans an equal number of seats on the comities so that the minority voice would not be snuffed out? No way, they held the majority and they expected to wield all the power it could give them.
Whether you call them progressives, liberals, or democrats, they are only open minded when it favors them. Please don't take that the wrong way, there are exceptions to every rule. I know there are liberals out there who may disagree with me, and no matter if they had more or less power than me, believe we should all meet together on the same field by the same rules. For the most part, those are not the liberals who hold any real power.
And believe me, as someone who was born with a moderate speech impediment but a high IQ. I have spent a lifetime being called "retarded" behind my back and to my face and am pretty much told I have to deal with people using that phrase. It does not matter how much in my childhood I was taunted with it. It is acceptable to call things, situations and people retarded.
I have been stigmatized enough in my life and am old enough to remember when you could speak politically incorrect and not have to worry about what you said offending someone who was taller, shorter, lighter, darker, faster, slower, etc, etc, etc than you were. And what I have seen is the people who yell the loudest about it are the least likely to give you a break when they are being inconsiderate.
Well... Honestly, look at what the Document Foundation did.
They forked the project, and then asked Oracle to donate the name to them. While, at the same time, asking Oracle to join the "new" foundation.
When Oracle purchased these assets from Sun, part of the valuation should have included the possibility of the product being "forked". The more out of step with the community Oracle plans were, the greater the possibility of a fork.
There is no room for a lawsuit, as long as when you fork GPL code you abide by the GPL, there is not much you can do but toss sticks and stones and call names.
It all depends on what Oracle wants to do. If they put enough paid programmers to work on open office. They could keep it more feature-rich than Libre Office. That would require a real investment. Oracle does not know how to handle open-source projects properly. The odds are it would end up an epic fail.
Oracle knew what they were going to do with regards to Open Solaris, Open Office, MySQL and Java. They knew, or should have known, and taken into account when they valued what they were paying SUN the potential for any of these projects to "fork" and compete against or destroy their own open source offerings.
I think you missed the point.
If you gave the user the choice of
a) stick with Microsoft Office
b) Get a $200.00 bonus for switching to LibreOfice and not complaining about it.
I think they were saying that for $200 the average office worker would admit that Libre Office can do everything that they do on a daily basis, and if they have experience with Office 2003/2002/2000/97 it will not be an overly difficult transition.
I could be wrong, but I believe that most companies that want to re-image machines must start with hardware that already has a legal copy of Windows on it AND an additional CAL to be able to image the machine.
So the CAL is not a full license, it is only a license to install an image onto a machine for which you already have a valid MS license.
It sucks to be a Microsoft customer.
Because Microsoft believes that end users can not be trusted to back up their data on their own.
If a user wants reliable data backup they need to purchase a program that is able to do it for them.
Power users have already changed their File Explorer settings to show hidden and system folders and can find the data just fine on their own.
The problem lies with the fact that dial-up users were getting owned. People on broadband were able to rely on the firewall in their cable/DSL modem.
What Microsoft should have done is have a security policy where the firewall is turned on and off with a dial up connection.
You must have plenty of time on your hands to keep up on security enough that you know you need to patch and know where to get the patch.
That is one of the nice services a good distro offers. Paying attention to all the security issues and patching the kernel for them.
I have given a lot of thought to this subject. In regards to politics, copyright law, and free software. It is only the nuts that are unreasonable that change the world. The question is all a matter of timing and is right now the time to fight. There are those who fight to soon and are marginal and die on the sidelines. Then there is a time when people are just a little to soon and are considered inflexible, eccentric or a little nutty.
Take a look at the founding of the United States, or of Women's Rights, or the Abolition of Slavery, in England, France, the United States etc. Going from horses to cars, harnessing steam, the world being round. All things that we take for granted now. But there was a time people could be killed for expressing such views. Then there was a time they were just considered nutty. Then there was a time where someone was unreasonable and the world bent to their view, instead of the other way around.
The better question is how principled are we. With all intellectual honesty, it is right that people should be able to govern their lives, have religious freedom, for women to have rights, for a person to not be a slave and enjoy the rewards for the work of the sweat of their brow? Is the same to be said of software freedom? If it is we should stand for it and bend the world to our will. It is up to each of us to determine in the short term if we should run non-free software to get work done now.
If I sound crazy, then it was just to soon to say this.
Like this sign http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2008/3/19/
I believe my share is supposed to be $699 per CPU.
Better put me down for several thousand dollars. I have installed Linux quite a few times
What is more scientifically accurate? Superman or Spider-man? They are both so wide of the mark it is not even worth noting the difference.
Another factor is the conceptual model is simpler. It is possible to know the entire layout of one of these classic machines. The CPU, instruction set, registers, I/O chips and memory layout. You can exactly where a program will load in memory. A 6502 has an Accumulator, X register, Y register, 6 flags, a stack pointer and a program counter. It is possible to know exactly how the computer works on both a hardware and software level.
Try that with a PC, what happens when you flip the power switch. Well which BIOS, what POST tests, what hardware? What happens up to the point where the boot sector is loaded? What happens after control has been turned over to the boot loader? What about the hardware? There are so many combinations, so many drivers, etc. How do you even go about teaching these things when you can't be sure of what hardware you will have in the classroom?
The classic machines flatten this out. Even in emulation they are very helpful tools for teaching.