Maybe they are more advanced than us and so no longer need primitive belief systems.
Man I really hope so!
They may even know why we're here and what comes next;-)
Heh heh, you mean someone like the Q:
(SILENCE. Picard is standing in blindingly WHITE LIMBO without walls or ceiling. He is dazed and confused...) Q: Welcome to the afterlife, Jean-Luc... you're dead. Picard: What's going on, Q? Q: I told you. You're dead. This is the afterlife. And I'm God. Picard: You are not God. Q: Blasphemy! You're lucky I don't cast you out, or smite you or something. ... Picard: How do I know this isn't another one of your tricks? Q: Think, Jean-Luc. Why would I go
to all the trouble of faking your death when I could simply kill you whenever I felt like it? ... Picard: No. I am not dead. I refuse to believe there is an afterlife which is run by you... the universe is not that badly designed.
Of course I know about Terminal Services in Windows, but I don't trust those either.
I can highly recommend using VNC together with SSH. Just slap an SSH client on the remote (your parents') machine and have it forward the VNC server's listening port to you. No NAT forwarding or firewall issues either, the connection is established on part of the remote machine (I'm guessing it's ok for the remote machine to establish outgoing connections to TCP port 22).
Of course it requires your parents to login via an SSH client to your SSH server (I'm assuming you have one) and logout when your done, but that's not too difficult.
I use the PuTTY SSH client and the TightVNC VNC server in this scenario. Works great!
Some folks will probably reply that when Linux gets more common, there will be crapware for linux too. This may or may not be the case (depends on whether you buy the "windows gets attacked because it's popular" argument).
I'm increasingly having a hard time believing that argument myself. Compare Apache's 67% market share to Microsoft IIS's 21.5% (it was at 35% back in 2002). IIS's security track record speaks for itself - Code Red anyone?
It's not like Apache is suffering by it's own popularity? Remember, these services are usually openly exposed by default for a huge amount of people to exploit.
I myself had a Java based trojan install an ftp daemon in my system folder with an INI file that had accounts named 'xdcc-warez' etc..
It sounds like one of the CWS (CoolWebSearch) variants. I'd just like to point out that these exploit a hole in Microsofts Java VM. Rip it out, install Sun's Java!
When the damage is done some of these variants are known to change your trusted site settings for Internet Explorer, enabling them to install even more crap without user intervention via ActiveX. The CWS variants are the most malevolent spyware components to date (they trash your machine and replace executables such as Windows Media Player - again without user intervention). As stated they exploit security vulnerabilities in Microsoft's browser technologies and to some extend the operating system itself.
So, IMHO you can laugh it off if you use other browser alternatives, and you can surely laugh it off if you switch to another OS.
Why do you attempt to make fun of people who have serious concerns about their privacy?
Come on? It's called sarcasm! If he gave a rats ass about privacy - and therefore people who have serious concerns about their privacy - he wouldn't have submitted this would he? So he's entitled, IMO.:-)
For the record, I'm concerned about my privacy, but I still found the "tinfoil hat brigade" pretty funny.
BayStar makes investments in innovative and promising companies that are potentially synergistic with its portfolio companies as well as its expanding network of strategic relationships.
BayStar is committed to seeking out and fostering strategic relationships that help companies move to successively higher levels of achievement and profitability. The technology executives that have invested in BayStar are an invaluable resource to our portfolio companies, offering industry insights and introductions to key industry contacts. BayStar's experience in the public markets provides proven expertise in the evaluation, preparation and execution of public offerings.
These Domino's guys are amateurs. Everybody knows you just have to ask the magic question to determine if she's a bot:
> Hello, I am Eliza.
* Hi, what are your measurements?
> Does that question interest you?
* Yes, it does. I need to know.
> Are you Sure?
* Yes I'm sure, now give me your measurements please!
> Did you come to me because you are sure, now give you my measurements please?
* Measurements!
> Tell me more...
* I want to determine if you're a bot!
> What makes you think I am a bot?
* sigh
> OK... "I want to determine if I'm a bot". Tell me more.
It was then I realized it only works on the ALICE bots.:-)
> What are your measurements?
ALICE: My memory now contains:
100 clients, categories, 10000 vocabulary words, 128000000 bytes RAM usage under Linux on Lisp.
>Ha, you're a bot!
ALICE: I'm glad you got a laugh out of it.
Entirely (?) removing CoolWWWSearch actually required running both programs.
I believe some of the CWS spyware variants actually replace some of your executables (like Windows Media Player) with a trojan that downloads new versions of these wonderful pets.
This is bad because no anti-spyware can help you when this kind of damage is done. You're gonna have to reinstall applications.
I've always tried to explain to people that anti-spyware tools should be your last line of defense. You have to be aware of the dangers to avoid them, and adjust your behaviour on the internet accordingly (look up info on known spyware, inspect browser cookies before storing, etc.). Letting spyware in and having, say, Ad-aware deal with it after the damage is done just won't cut it (at least not anymore)! It's not like you do this with a virus?
IE6 is old and it's CSS support is lacking (non-complete CSS1 as parent poster stated) and bug-ridden!
Ever encounterd a webpage that uses CSS that "works" in IE, and looks broken in other browsers? Chances are it's really because the other browsers work right according to the specs, and the author of the page unknowingly created CSS that satisfied IE's float quirks, or had an HTML editing tool that did it.
A real showstopper for the adoption of CSS if you ask me!
Even if the job can be done the right way isn't it easier to be lazy and neglect everyone but IE?
I don't know whether a job can ever be done the right way with laziness.:-)
Still, I've found ignorance to be the main problem here, not laziness. In almost every case of broken markup I've encountered - tag soup, font tags all over the place, no CSS, etc. - it has been because of the fact that people have used some popular HTML editing tool that can't produce standards compliant markup.
But how should they know the tool can't possibly do it right for them? Sad really.
Are Gecko and Opera having a practical impact, yet?
Slowly but surely I hope! These browsers are years ahead of IE, quite literally. At least Mozilla supports most of CSS2 (and CSS2.1 then) and some CSS3. The current recommendation is CSS2.1. As far as I know IE doesn't support CSS1 completely and it's support is buggy - this is really a problem for CSS adoption, IMO.
How about handheld devices?
Dunno, but the CSS @media at-rule is quite handy. I haven't tried "handheld", but "print" is really wonderful. Printer-friendly redundant web pages are a thing of the past.
My best guess, in a beginners' case, would be frustration. Even the dselect documentation states "If you are eager to get Debian running as soon as possible, well, you shouldn't use dselect". I guess this throws most people off during the last step of the install. Of course you still have the option to not run dselect during this step, but I'm sure most people are curious the first time they install Debian and will be tempted.:-)
Don't get me wrong, I've used dselect myself several times. In the end I just found it too cumbersome to browse the several thousand available packages with it. For some of the same reasons you mention by the way.
Apt-get and apt-cache themselves truly are easy to use! It used to be that dselect made more use of the packages meta-data, such as "suggested package" info, whereas apt-get did not. However, new versions of apt-get support this as well. There still may be other advantages to using dselect though, YMMV.
I forgot to mention another cool thing about the installer.
The base install - for which only the first cd is needed - is quite light. The last step in the installation process is configuring APT (Advanced Package Tool) and optionally fetching the rest of the packages from the Internet (or more CD's), depending on your needs of course. If you skip the package selection, you're left with a small system that has a configured SSH server (protocol 2 only, no root login), mail and print, but no X Window System, Window Managers, or anything like that. Pretty neat.
My advice is always to skip dselect and just stick with tasksel during the install to select what you need like "X Window System", "C/C++ Development", "GNOME Window Manager", "Web Server", etc. After you're done with tasksel just agt-get what you need. You can search the package repository with apt-cache search.
You would never want not to use APT! It handles dependencies and distribution upgrades excellently! I guess having the cd-rom included in your sources.list should have worked in your case, though a haven't had the need for this myself, so I can't really comment on what could go wrong.
Numerous posts here on/. suggest that it's the missing hardware autodetection and lack of a graphical installer.
You need to insert some kernel modules manually during install (for NIC, sound, etc.), which means you'd have to know what hardware you're running. Familiarity with the Linux kernel's 'make menuconfig' module selection is an advantage here too because the selections in the Debian installer are the same (ie. same groupings). The new installer detects hardware automatically, which is fine if it works - I've tried it twice, so far no problems.
The point about the graphical installer is really non-essential, unless you can't navigate with a keyboard. The new installer is reworked and more modular as stated on the "About the Debian Installer" page, and as such it's should be easy to put a graphical installer ontop of it. Should make some people happy.
I've always loved the Debian Installer! For me it was a more hands-on experience, and with the ability to select kernel modules during the install, I was able to make my old parallel port CD-burner work correctly without a fuss. But that's just me. One cool thing about the Debian installer is the fact that you can follow the standard sequential set of dialogs during the install process, like any other installer, but you can also get a list of all the tasks and jump to anyone on the fly, at any stage during the install. This is helpful if you suddenly find out that you mistyped your IP-address or forgot to create a partion, things like that. Both the old and the new installer support this.
Example: How do you calculate the cost of having copies of your private email correspondance and selected private documents from your "My Documents" dir emailed out to everybody by a worm like Klez? Let's say you were gay, that's a fast way to get out of the closet! How about confidential information in a company?
Remember, it's nok like they just get emailed around the world to people you don't know anyway, and who probably could care less about you. It's people you regularly have email correspondance with. People who know you!
These kinds of attacks truly are the most damaging to any person or company.
The CoolWebSearch (CWS) browser hijacking variants are nasty alright! I have just helped someone get rid of one of these.
It's the first time I've encountered spyware that actually trashes your files. The CWS variant in this case had replaced the Windows Media Player executable with it's own little pet resident trojan. That was new to me. I had to resort to using the CWShredder (contains more info about CWS) and SpyBot Search & Destroy tools to remove all the cruft left on the system - Ad-aware couldn't handle it in this case. Of course WMP had to be installed afresh, so no anti-spyware tool can actually "repair" all the damage CWS variants cause.
I believe the line between spyware and virus is getting blurry.
Wait a minute! The Quality Feedback Agent is not hidden from view during a "custom install" with your usual optional brief mention at the bottom of some EULA or something like that.
It's a legitimate and non-silent (unlike spyware) component of the Mozilla Suite. If you choose "complete install" (in any application) it means everything!
Okay, now all the professional coders whose first programming experience was in BASIC on a VIC-20, Apple II, or TRS-80, raise your hands... man, there seems to be a lot of us, huh.
Oh right here! But on an IBM PC-AT in the mid-eighties. Then on the C64, and then there was Turbo Basic on the 80286 I think?;-)
GOTO is essential -- all processors use it at their lowest levels (it goes by the name JMP in assembly language, though.)
All other types of branching or looping are just syntactic sugar.
Of course it's essential at the lowest level, but you will also remember something like JSR (or the like?). Todays syntactic sugar makes a good point of returning you to your previous origin of branching; keeping you in control of what's happening and what variables you're mangling and such (think functions). I believe GOSUB was the safer bet compared to GOTO for BASIC in those days.
I don't think GOTO is the best idea to use in higher level languages unless you're writing a kernel or something where performance is absolutely critical in some places.
"It is practically impossible to teach good programming style to students that have had prior exposure to BASIC; as potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration."
-- Professor Edsger Dijkstra
Oh yeah and "Goto considered harmful" too, of course.
I just mentioned the Total Commander (formerly Windows Commander) file manager as showing possible prior art in this comment.
It just occured to me, that the program had it's name changed to Total Commander from Windows Commander back in 2002 after Microsoft's attorneys contacted them. From the site:
Why this name change? In Summer 2002, we received a letter from attorneys representing the owner of the trademark "Windows". In this letter they expressed concerns that our usage of the name could lead to confusion with their own products. In particular, people could think that our program could be from their company. We were indirectly asked to change the name of our software.
So Microsoft must have known about Windows Commander, perhaps sometime before the summer of 2002, but at least during the same summer. Anyway, the patent in question was filed on July 12, 2002. Is this a fantastic coincidence?
Total Commander (formerly Windows Commander) - the Norton Commander clone - displays this behaviour, I think [1]. If you right click on a file in it's list panes, the file is marked. If you hold down the button for a second when right-clicking you get a Windows context sensitive menu instead.
[1] It says "Time based hardware button for application launch" in the heading, but they're refering to an application button in the abstract. What's up with that?
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Maybe they are more advanced than us and so no longer need primitive belief systems.
Man I really hope so!
They may even know why we're here and what comes next ;-)
Heh heh, you mean someone like the Q:
(SILENCE. Picard is standing in blindingly WHITE LIMBO without walls or ceiling. He is dazed and confused...) ... you're dead.
...
... ... the universe is not that badly designed.
Q: Welcome to the afterlife, Jean-Luc
Picard: What's going on, Q?
Q: I told you. You're dead. This is the afterlife. And I'm God.
Picard: You are not God.
Q: Blasphemy! You're lucky I don't cast you out, or smite you or something.
Picard: How do I know this isn't another one of your tricks?
Q: Think, Jean-Luc. Why would I go to all the trouble of faking your death when I could simply kill you whenever I felt like it?
Picard: No. I am not dead. I refuse to believe there is an afterlife which is run by you
That would be cool! :-)
zOf course I know about Terminal Services in Windows, but I don't trust those either.
I can highly recommend using VNC together with SSH. Just slap an SSH client on the remote (your parents') machine and have it forward the VNC server's listening port to you. No NAT forwarding or firewall issues either, the connection is established on part of the remote machine (I'm guessing it's ok for the remote machine to establish outgoing connections to TCP port 22).
Of course it requires your parents to login via an SSH client to your SSH server (I'm assuming you have one) and logout when your done, but that's not too difficult.
I use the PuTTY SSH client and the TightVNC VNC server in this scenario. Works great!
zSome folks will probably reply that when Linux gets more common, there will be crapware for linux too. This may or may not be the case (depends on whether you buy the "windows gets attacked because it's popular" argument).
I'm increasingly having a hard time believing that argument myself. Compare Apache's 67% market share to Microsoft IIS's 21.5% (it was at 35% back in 2002). IIS's security track record speaks for itself - Code Red anyone?
It's not like Apache is suffering by it's own popularity? Remember, these services are usually openly exposed by default for a huge amount of people to exploit.
zCan I be a reporter now?
"Avoid employing unlucky people - throw half of the pile of CVs in the bin without reading them." -- David Brent
Sure! If you're lucky, I guess. :-)
zI myself had a Java based trojan install an ftp daemon in my system folder with an INI file that had accounts named 'xdcc-warez' etc..
It sounds like one of the CWS (CoolWebSearch) variants. I'd just like to point out that these exploit a hole in Microsofts Java VM. Rip it out, install Sun's Java!
When the damage is done some of these variants are known to change your trusted site settings for Internet Explorer, enabling them to install even more crap without user intervention via ActiveX. The CWS variants are the most malevolent spyware components to date (they trash your machine and replace executables such as Windows Media Player - again without user intervention). As stated they exploit security vulnerabilities in Microsoft's browser technologies and to some extend the operating system itself.
So, IMHO you can laugh it off if you use other browser alternatives, and you can surely laugh it off if you switch to another OS.
zIf you like good old music trackers, I can recommend Soundtracker.
It uses a Fasttracker 2 like interface, it plays XM and MOD, and it's GPL'd.
zWhy do you attempt to make fun of people who have serious concerns about their privacy?
Come on? It's called sarcasm! If he gave a rats ass about privacy - and therefore people who have serious concerns about their privacy - he wouldn't have submitted this would he? So he's entitled, IMO. :-)
For the record, I'm concerned about my privacy, but I still found the "tinfoil hat brigade" pretty funny.
zYou forgot the "annihilate" step, before you begin washing your hands.
zNot only that. Take a look at the first few paragraphs, it looks like something Dilbert's Mission Statement Generator came up with:
BayStar makes investments in innovative and promising companies that are potentially synergistic with its portfolio companies as well as its expanding network of strategic relationships.
BayStar is committed to seeking out and fostering strategic relationships that help companies move to successively higher levels of achievement and profitability. The technology executives that have invested in BayStar are an invaluable resource to our portfolio companies, offering industry insights and introductions to key industry contacts. BayStar's experience in the public markets provides proven expertise in the evaluation, preparation and execution of public offerings.
zThese Domino's guys are amateurs. Everybody knows you just have to ask the magic question to determine if she's a bot:
> Hello, I am Eliza.
* Hi, what are your measurements?
> Does that question interest you?
* Yes, it does. I need to know.
> Are you Sure?
* Yes I'm sure, now give me your measurements please!
> Did you come to me because you are sure, now give you my measurements please?
* Measurements!
> Tell me more...
* I want to determine if you're a bot!
> What makes you think I am a bot?
* sigh
> OK... "I want to determine if I'm a bot". Tell me more.
It was then I realized it only works on the ALICE bots. :-)
> What are your measurements?
zALICE: My memory now contains: 100 clients, categories, 10000 vocabulary words, 128000000 bytes RAM usage under Linux on Lisp.
>Ha, you're a bot!
ALICE: I'm glad you got a laugh out of it.
Entirely (?) removing CoolWWWSearch actually required running both programs.
I believe some of the CWS spyware variants actually replace some of your executables (like Windows Media Player) with a trojan that downloads new versions of these wonderful pets. This is bad because no anti-spyware can help you when this kind of damage is done. You're gonna have to reinstall applications.
I've always tried to explain to people that anti-spyware tools should be your last line of defense. You have to be aware of the dangers to avoid them, and adjust your behaviour on the internet accordingly (look up info on known spyware, inspect browser cookies before storing, etc.). Letting spyware in and having, say, Ad-aware deal with it after the damage is done just won't cut it (at least not anymore)! It's not like you do this with a virus?
zI second that!
IE6 is old and it's CSS support is lacking (non-complete CSS1 as parent poster stated) and bug-ridden!
Ever encounterd a webpage that uses CSS that "works" in IE, and looks broken in other browsers? Chances are it's really because the other browsers work right according to the specs, and the author of the page unknowingly created CSS that satisfied IE's float quirks, or had an HTML editing tool that did it.
A real showstopper for the adoption of CSS if you ask me!
zEven if the job can be done the right way isn't it easier to be lazy and neglect everyone but IE?
I don't know whether a job can ever be done the right way with laziness. :-)
Still, I've found ignorance to be the main problem here, not laziness. In almost every case of broken markup I've encountered - tag soup, font tags all over the place, no CSS, etc. - it has been because of the fact that people have used some popular HTML editing tool that can't produce standards compliant markup.
But how should they know the tool can't possibly do it right for them? Sad really.
Are Gecko and Opera having a practical impact, yet?
Slowly but surely I hope! These browsers are years ahead of IE, quite literally. At least Mozilla supports most of CSS2 (and CSS2.1 then) and some CSS3. The current recommendation is CSS2.1. As far as I know IE doesn't support CSS1 completely and it's support is buggy - this is really a problem for CSS adoption, IMO.
How about handheld devices?
Dunno, but the CSS @media at-rule is quite handy. I haven't tried "handheld", but "print" is really wonderful. Printer-friendly redundant web pages are a thing of the past.
zMy best guess, in a beginners' case, would be frustration. Even the dselect documentation states "If you are eager to get Debian running as soon as possible, well, you shouldn't use dselect". I guess this throws most people off during the last step of the install. Of course you still have the option to not run dselect during this step, but I'm sure most people are curious the first time they install Debian and will be tempted. :-)
Don't get me wrong, I've used dselect myself several times. In the end I just found it too cumbersome to browse the several thousand available packages with it. For some of the same reasons you mention by the way.
Apt-get and apt-cache themselves truly are easy to use! It used to be that dselect made more use of the packages meta-data, such as "suggested package" info, whereas apt-get did not. However, new versions of apt-get support this as well. There still may be other advantages to using dselect though, YMMV.
zNo problem!
I forgot to mention another cool thing about the installer.
The base install - for which only the first cd is needed - is quite light. The last step in the installation process is configuring APT (Advanced Package Tool) and optionally fetching the rest of the packages from the Internet (or more CD's), depending on your needs of course. If you skip the package selection, you're left with a small system that has a configured SSH server (protocol 2 only, no root login), mail and print, but no X Window System, Window Managers, or anything like that. Pretty neat.
zIt sure will!
My advice is always to skip dselect and just stick with tasksel during the install to select what you need like "X Window System", "C/C++ Development", "GNOME Window Manager", "Web Server", etc. After you're done with tasksel just agt-get what you need. You can search the package repository with apt-cache search.
You would never want not to use APT! It handles dependencies and distribution upgrades excellently! I guess having the cd-rom included in your sources.list should have worked in your case, though a haven't had the need for this myself, so I can't really comment on what could go wrong.
zNumerous posts here on /. suggest that it's the missing hardware autodetection and lack of a graphical installer.
You need to insert some kernel modules manually during install (for NIC, sound, etc.), which means you'd have to know what hardware you're running. Familiarity with the Linux kernel's 'make menuconfig' module selection is an advantage here too because the selections in the Debian installer are the same (ie. same groupings). The new installer detects hardware automatically, which is fine if it works - I've tried it twice, so far no problems.
The point about the graphical installer is really non-essential, unless you can't navigate with a keyboard. The new installer is reworked and more modular as stated on the "About the Debian Installer" page, and as such it's should be easy to put a graphical installer ontop of it. Should make some people happy.
I've always loved the Debian Installer! For me it was a more hands-on experience, and with the ability to select kernel modules during the install, I was able to make my old parallel port CD-burner work correctly without a fuss. But that's just me. One cool thing about the Debian installer is the fact that you can follow the standard sequential set of dialogs during the install process, like any other installer, but you can also get a list of all the tasks and jump to anyone on the fly, at any stage during the install. This is helpful if you suddenly find out that you mistyped your IP-address or forgot to create a partion, things like that. Both the old and the new installer support this.
zCost of ownership is quite a relative term IMO.
Example: How do you calculate the cost of having copies of your private email correspondance and selected private documents from your "My Documents" dir emailed out to everybody by a worm like Klez? Let's say you were gay, that's a fast way to get out of the closet! How about confidential information in a company?
Remember, it's nok like they just get emailed around the world to people you don't know anyway, and who probably could care less about you. It's people you regularly have email correspondance with. People who know you!
These kinds of attacks truly are the most damaging to any person or company.
zThe CoolWebSearch (CWS) browser hijacking variants are nasty alright! I have just helped someone get rid of one of these.
It's the first time I've encountered spyware that actually trashes your files. The CWS variant in this case had replaced the Windows Media Player executable with it's own little pet resident trojan. That was new to me. I had to resort to using the CWShredder (contains more info about CWS) and SpyBot Search & Destroy tools to remove all the cruft left on the system - Ad-aware couldn't handle it in this case. Of course WMP had to be installed afresh, so no anti-spyware tool can actually "repair" all the damage CWS variants cause.
I believe the line between spyware and virus is getting blurry.
zWait a minute! The Quality Feedback Agent is not hidden from view during a "custom install" with your usual optional brief mention at the bottom of some EULA or something like that.
It's a legitimate and non-silent (unlike spyware) component of the Mozilla Suite. If you choose "complete install" (in any application) it means everything!
zPersonally, I'm rooting for Bigfoot! That's be cool! :-)
zOh right here! But on an IBM PC-AT in the mid-eighties. Then on the C64, and then there was Turbo Basic on the 80286 I think? ;-)
GOTO is essential -- all processors use it at their lowest levels (it goes by the name JMP in assembly language, though.)
All other types of branching or looping are just syntactic sugar.
Of course it's essential at the lowest level, but you will also remember something like JSR (or the like?). Todays syntactic sugar makes a good point of returning you to your previous origin of branching; keeping you in control of what's happening and what variables you're mangling and such (think functions). I believe GOSUB was the safer bet compared to GOTO for BASIC in those days.
I don't think GOTO is the best idea to use in higher level languages unless you're writing a kernel or something where performance is absolutely critical in some places.
z"It is practically impossible to teach good programming style to students that have had prior exposure to BASIC; as potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration." -- Professor Edsger Dijkstra
Oh yeah and "Goto considered harmful" too, of course.
RIP buddy. :-)
zI just mentioned the Total Commander (formerly Windows Commander) file manager as showing possible prior art in this comment.
It just occured to me, that the program had it's name changed to Total Commander from Windows Commander back in 2002 after Microsoft's attorneys contacted them. From the site:
So Microsoft must have known about Windows Commander, perhaps sometime before the summer of 2002, but at least during the same summer. Anyway, the patent in question was filed on July 12, 2002. Is this a fantastic coincidence?
zTotal Commander (formerly Windows Commander) - the Norton Commander clone - displays this behaviour, I think [1]. If you right click on a file in it's list panes, the file is marked. If you hold down the button for a second when right-clicking you get a Windows context sensitive menu instead.
[1] It says "Time based hardware button for application launch" in the heading, but they're refering to an application button in the abstract. What's up with that?
z