"Godel didn't say anything about humans and computers. "
I didn't claim that he did. All I claimed was that Goedels theorem "... shows [read: 'it is reasonable to conclude'] that there are some types of mathematical proofs that a human mathematician can demonstrate to be true, but a turing machine ( read: any current technology computer ) cannot."
" His proof has absolutly nothing to do with the diffrence."
If that's the case, then why is there an entire section in the wikipedia article entitled "Discussion and implications" that discusses the implications of Goedels Incompleteness Theorem to machine and human intelligence? Why did J.R. Lucas write a book entitled Minds, Machines, and Godel unless it discussed Minds, Machines, and Godel*? Please read the wikipedia article before posting further commentary.
" I mean, really you have absolutly no idea what you are talking about. At all. "
Again, wrong. Read the wikipedia article.
"Your brain is a turing machine."
I do not accept your thesis, and I have no reason to do so unless you present me with a compelling argument. The burden is on you to present an argument for me to accept your thesis.
AND FOR CHRISTS' SAKE, GET AUTOPRON BACK UP!!
* From Wikipedia: "Lucas argues that a human mathematician cannot be accurately represented by an algorithmic automaton. Appealing to Gödel's incompleteness theorem, he argues that, for any such automaton, there would be some mathematical formula which it could not prove, but which the human mathematician could both see, and show, to be true. Other philosophers, notably Roger Penrose, have made similar arguments."
You're wrong. First of all, Geodels theorem is for every complete system, there are true statements that cannot be proven in that system, but can be in a larger system. The rub is, the same applies to the larger system. In our new, larger system that shows truths not possible in the smaller system, there are yet truths that this new system cannot show. Yet, another larger system can show those truths, but there are yet some truths that it cannot show... ad infinitum.
But a computer cannot demonstrate this truth. I don't claim to understand why not, but it clearly says in the wikipedia article that it can't. I can understand the summary I've given above, but I cannot prove Goedels theorem using strictly logical constructs. However, with time, I could learn to do it, but a computer cannot, and there will never be a turing machine that can.
Basically you're argument is "Yes, a turing machine can prove Goedel's theorem." OK, go ahead and write that tape. Then take it to Harvard or University of Choice and turn it in for your honorary PhD. Congrats, you've just change mathematics forever.
Actually, there is a perfectly logical reason: it's called Goedel's incompleteness theorem. It shows that there are some types of mathematical proofs that a human mathematician can demonstrate to be true, but a turing machine ( read: any current technology computer ) cannot.
It's not that we don't have a computer fast enough, or with enough transistors; it's that all computers are essentially a universal turing machine, which cannot handle the proof. So we don't even have a model for how the human brain works. It doesn't matter how fast or how large we make our computers. A 'computer' would have to be qualitatively different than current computers (read: a different kind of machine ) in order to be intelligent like a person. Rigth now we have absolutely no idea what this new *type* of computer would be like.
I am not a mathematician; I realize I've been fuzzy with my terminology, so here is the Wikipedia article about it. Enjoy.
Most of what Jesus Christ claimed is compatable with Jewish orthodoxy. Most of what he said was said earlier by Hillel. Jesus Christ was ousted by by the Jews for claiming to be God, which is the only major divergence from Jewish orthodoxy. And that's a pretty serious divergence.
"'What if Frodo Baggins, instead of confronting the evil empire in "The Lord of the Rings," just got himself a lawyer and sued?'"
Seriously, these lawsuits are getting way out of hand. We need to get back to basics and have sword duels, like back in the days of jolly old Middle Earth.
You're overlooking the point, which is the collapse of the oil-fueled motor industry -- automobiles and airplanes. Basically the most common method of transportation in the world today.
Well, I've had a different experience. From what I see at the CompUSAs, BestBuys, Office Maxes, Staples, and Circuit Citys, 1-year warranties are common. That's not to say that there are *no* 3-year warranties, but I'd say there is at least something like a 60-40 split. I've never seen a 5-year warranty on an on-the-shelf retail drive.
I think you have some kind of geek bias in the drives you are talking about. I found it easy to find 1-year warranties, and I would say that generally manufacturers are moving towards that, as they make larger drives in the same size factor, and pc prices are dropping in general.
I call myself a geek because I did a google search and produced a link that proved you wrong within 30 seconds.
I call you not a geek because either:
1. You made a sloppy comment that can easily misinterpreted as an inaccurate statement -- saying that "No manufacturer is giving less than 3 years warranty" when you meant "No manufacturer/on newegg/". This misinterpretation is made easier by later stating that "I think you wanted to refer to the not so recent attempt by some major players to cut warranty to 1 year. That didn't last long, I guess because their sales must have suffered.". Who are these major players? Just the ones on on Newegg? Do you and the reader agree on who the major players are? Because I consider Maxtor a major player, and they offer a one year warranty (which would make you, again, wrong).
"Then, mebbe you coulda' clicked on the Detailed Specifications link, and read that it does in fact, as the GP stated, have a 5 year warranty.
"
Then why didn't grandparent link to that, instead of another page that didn't explain warranty at all?
"It took you more time to type out your ill-thought post than it would have taken for you to check the facts.
Just sayin, is all."
You should do less sayin', and more readin'. Granparent claimed that " No manufacturer is giving less than 3 year warranty". Not true*. I demonstrated this in my link.
Grandparent also claimed a "not so recent attempt by some major players to cut warranty to 1 year. That didn't last long, I guess because their sales must have suffered." Not true. There are still 1 year warranties currently being offered, as demonstrated in my link.
You too are trolling.
* Does grandparent mean that no manufacturer on Newegg.com is not offering less than 3-year warranties? Then say so. Otherwise, the statement is not true.
I didn't see anything about warranty on your link. However, this CompUSA hitachi drive has only a 1-year warranty.
You're trolling, or full of it. I see ads from Best Buy, Circuit City, and other places all the time that offer 1 year warranties. They're commonplace, because modern drives are crap.
"400 Gig drive (probably of equal or better reliability overall and a warranty).."
Not really. Most drives coming out now have a 1-year warranty (some have 3). Modern drives pack more data into a smaller space, so they are more likely to lose data than older drive. Small imperfections will be more noticeable, and will cause more and greater problems. They are not the quality level of the old seagate SCSI drives used in this setup. Those SCSI originally came with a 5-year warranty. If those SCSI drives are still alive and spinning, I would trust them to last longer than any crappy 1-year warranty IDE drive you can buy off the shelf these days.
Furthermore, think about this: What happens when your 400 GB drive dies? You lose all your data. Yes, you can get it replace, but so what? Your data is already gone. What happens when one of these 18.6 or 50 GB drives dies? Power down the machine, rip and replace the drive for $5 - $10, boot back up and mount the drive. No problem.
Bottom line, you need RAID 5 for data reliability. A single drive is a less reliable scenario. Those old SCSI drives are probably more reliable than any new 1-year warranty 400 GB IDE drive, and if one dies, who cares? This is a hardier scenario.
I don't think AI was based on Dick's work. This website says " It would've been better to leave as is the title of the book the film is based on: Supertoys Last All Summer Long by Brian Aldiss. "
But maybe Aldiss was influenced or inspired by Dick? I don't know.
This sounds like an urban myth to me. They sold 1000 pounds of 'frog legs' *every week*? What is that, like 10,000 orders of frog legs? So, that's about 2,500 rats that they have to process to meet the frog leg demand? Where was this slaughtering facility that processed 2,500 rats every week? Surely it wasn't going through the restaurant's kitchen. How could they get that many rats in the place? Was the pied piper working for them?
"Do you think Yahoo would have given you those two gigs if gmail hadn't done it first?"
And that's a reason to switch to Gmail? I think not.
No, that's not a reason to switch, but don't make like yahoo mail has given you two gigs all along. You have benefitted from gmail coming along and offering 2 GB, because otherwise you would be stuck with your 200 MB or whatever it was.
I have a friend who is on her 3rd hotmail account because she went over her limit twice already.
"And what do you call this whole thing with invites? It's viral marketing. It's much more subtle than tradition approaches, and clearly sneaked past your marketing detector."
OK, this viral marketing is a form of marketing, but it's not like google has plastered posters of gmail all over buildings, billboards, buses and pedestrians. In fact, how successful would this viral marketing campaign be if gmail wasn't something actually worth using?
Sanjay: "Hey Bob, check out this gmail invite I just sent you?"
Bob: "Thanks, Sanjay, what is it good for?"
Sanjay: "Are you ready?! Get this: It's Google's email service!!
Bob: "Okay... what's so great about it?" Sanjay: "Didn't you hear me? It's Google!" Bob: "So what? I alread have Hotmail/Yahoo, I don't need another webmail service..."
Instead it went like:
Bob: "Okay... what's so great about it?" Sanjay: "It gives you 2 gigs of storage and has great search capabilities." Bob: "Excellent! I've been waiting for this all along!"
Bottom line is, 1. Gmail wouldn't have been so popular if it didn't actually offer something worthwhile, regardless of whatever marketing campaign they used, and 2. you wouldn't have your 2 GBs if it wasn't for Gmail, so don't pretend like you haven't benefitted at all from Gmail.
I know agism is lame, but I'm impressed with teenagers ( no offense) who manage to do more with their life than I've done to the present point. I've got 10 years on you, and I'm starting to feel like a geezer who hasn't amounted to much. It has to do with guys like you involved in projects like this;)
"I've been playing Castle Infinity since a very young age, and have volunteered on the game for quite a few years. Castle Infinity was developed around 1995/96 by Starwave. "
So, the guy who rescued Castle Infinity is anywhere between 10-15 years old? Sheesh.
I'm talking more like "I asked this company to stop automatically charging my card each month. I asked them to close the account and they said they did, but they keep charging me." If you issue a chargeback, then that company charges you again for the 'outstanding balance' you owe them, plus a chargeback fee.
It's time for a new system. This credit card BS is getting ridiculous. Credit card numbers are easy to hack/steal, so cc comapnies start asking for address verification, or for that 3-digit 'security' code on the back. Now, address and security code information are being stolen.
We need a new system based on PGP or something. A system where we have single-use transaction numbers, and you have give a PGP signature for each usage of a transaction number. Right now it's way to easy for hackers to steal credit card information, or for unethical merchants to make unauthorized charges. We need to put the consumer back in charge of their own finances.
Currently , any 'merchant' can charge whatever they want once they have your credit card number. Sure, you can issue a chargeback or contest the charges, but why should *you* have to clean up after someone messes with your account? It's ridiculous.
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I mean c'mon. Rolling PigPail?
Don't you mean Rolling PigPail?
I didn't claim that he did. All I claimed was that Goedels theorem "... shows [read: 'it is reasonable to conclude'] that there are some types of mathematical proofs that a human mathematician can demonstrate to be true, but a turing machine ( read: any current technology computer ) cannot."
" His proof has absolutly nothing to do with the diffrence."
If that's the case, then why is there an entire section in the wikipedia article entitled "Discussion and implications" that discusses the implications of Goedels Incompleteness Theorem to machine and human intelligence? Why did J.R. Lucas write a book entitled Minds, Machines, and Godel unless it discussed Minds, Machines, and Godel*? Please read the wikipedia article before posting further commentary.
" I mean, really you have absolutly no idea what you are talking about. At all. "
Again, wrong. Read the wikipedia article.
"Your brain is a turing machine."
I do not accept your thesis, and I have no reason to do so unless you present me with a compelling argument. The burden is on you to present an argument for me to accept your thesis.
AND FOR CHRISTS' SAKE, GET AUTOPRON BACK UP!!
* From Wikipedia: "Lucas argues that a human mathematician cannot be accurately represented by an algorithmic automaton. Appealing to Gödel's incompleteness theorem, he argues that, for any such automaton, there would be some mathematical formula which it could not prove, but which the human mathematician could both see, and show, to be true. Other philosophers, notably Roger Penrose, have made similar arguments."
But a computer cannot demonstrate this truth. I don't claim to understand why not, but it clearly says in the wikipedia article that it can't. I can understand the summary I've given above, but I cannot prove Goedels theorem using strictly logical constructs. However, with time, I could learn to do it, but a computer cannot, and there will never be a turing machine that can.
Basically you're argument is "Yes, a turing machine can prove Goedel's theorem." OK, go ahead and write that tape. Then take it to Harvard or University of Choice and turn it in for your honorary PhD. Congrats, you've just change mathematics forever.
It's not that we don't have a computer fast enough, or with enough transistors; it's that all computers are essentially a universal turing machine, which cannot handle the proof. So we don't even have a model for how the human brain works. It doesn't matter how fast or how large we make our computers. A 'computer' would have to be qualitatively different than current computers (read: a different kind of machine ) in order to be intelligent like a person. Rigth now we have absolutely no idea what this new *type* of computer would be like.
I am not a mathematician; I realize I've been fuzzy with my terminology, so here is the Wikipedia article about it. Enjoy.
Most of what Jesus Christ claimed is compatable with Jewish orthodoxy. Most of what he said was said earlier by Hillel. Jesus Christ was ousted by by the Jews for claiming to be God, which is the only major divergence from Jewish orthodoxy. And that's a pretty serious divergence.
Seriously, these lawsuits are getting way out of hand. We need to get back to basics and have sword duels, like back in the days of jolly old Middle Earth.
You're overlooking the point, which is the collapse of the oil-fueled motor industry -- automobiles and airplanes. Basically the most common method of transportation in the world today.
" No manufacturer is giving less than 3 years warranty. [newegg.com] "
" Newegg also has Maxtor. The point in this thread and your above quote is "Does Maxtor offer a > 1 year warranty or not?"
Take a logic class. Pedantism is geek (think programming). Please be more careful when you post in the future.
I think you have some kind of geek bias in the drives you are talking about. I found it easy to find 1-year warranties, and I would say that generally manufacturers are moving towards that, as they make larger drives in the same size factor, and pc prices are dropping in general.
I call you not a geek because either:
1. You made a sloppy comment that can easily misinterpreted as an inaccurate statement -- saying that "No manufacturer is giving less than 3 years warranty" when you meant "No manufacturer /on newegg/". This misinterpretation is made easier by later stating that "I think you wanted to refer to the not so recent attempt by some major players to cut warranty to 1 year. That didn't last long, I guess because their sales must have suffered.". Who are these major players? Just the ones on on Newegg? Do you and the reader agree on who the major players are? Because I consider Maxtor a major player, and they offer a one year warranty (which would make you, again, wrong).
or
2. You are just plain out wrong.
Then why didn't grandparent link to that, instead of another page that didn't explain warranty at all?
"It took you more time to type out your ill-thought post than it would have taken for you to check the facts.
Just sayin, is all."
You should do less sayin', and more readin'. Granparent claimed that " No manufacturer is giving less than 3 year warranty". Not true*. I demonstrated this in my link.
Grandparent also claimed a "not so recent attempt by some major players to cut warranty to 1 year. That didn't last long, I guess because their sales must have suffered." Not true. There are still 1 year warranties currently being offered, as demonstrated in my link.
You too are trolling.
* Does grandparent mean that no manufacturer on Newegg.com is not offering less than 3-year warranties? Then say so. Otherwise, the statement is not true.
You're trolling, or full of it. I see ads from Best Buy, Circuit City, and other places all the time that offer 1 year warranties. They're commonplace, because modern drives are crap.
Not really. Most drives coming out now have a 1-year warranty (some have 3). Modern drives pack more data into a smaller space, so they are more likely to lose data than older drive. Small imperfections will be more noticeable, and will cause more and greater problems. They are not the quality level of the old seagate SCSI drives used in this setup. Those SCSI originally came with a 5-year warranty. If those SCSI drives are still alive and spinning, I would trust them to last longer than any crappy 1-year warranty IDE drive you can buy off the shelf these days.
Furthermore, think about this: What happens when your 400 GB drive dies? You lose all your data. Yes, you can get it replace, but so what? Your data is already gone. What happens when one of these 18.6 or 50 GB drives dies? Power down the machine, rip and replace the drive for $5 - $10, boot back up and mount the drive. No problem.
Bottom line, you need RAID 5 for data reliability. A single drive is a less reliable scenario. Those old SCSI drives are probably more reliable than any new 1-year warranty 400 GB IDE drive, and if one dies, who cares? This is a hardier scenario.
But maybe Aldiss was influenced or inspired by Dick? I don't know.
This sounds like an urban myth to me. They sold 1000 pounds of 'frog legs' *every week*? What is that, like 10,000 orders of frog legs? So, that's about 2,500 rats that they have to process to meet the frog leg demand? Where was this slaughtering facility that processed 2,500 rats every week? Surely it wasn't going through the restaurant's kitchen. How could they get that many rats in the place? Was the pied piper working for them?
How many forms of matter do we have now? What are the criteria to distinguish types of matter?
And that's a reason to switch to Gmail? I think not.
No, that's not a reason to switch, but don't make like yahoo mail has given you two gigs all along. You have benefitted from gmail coming along and offering 2 GB, because otherwise you would be stuck with your 200 MB or whatever it was.
I have a friend who is on her 3rd hotmail account because she went over her limit twice already.
"And what do you call this whole thing with invites? It's viral marketing. It's much more subtle than tradition approaches, and clearly sneaked past your marketing detector."
OK, this viral marketing is a form of marketing, but it's not like google has plastered posters of gmail all over buildings, billboards, buses and pedestrians. In fact, how successful would this viral marketing campaign be if gmail wasn't something actually worth using?
Sanjay: "Hey Bob, check out this gmail invite I just sent you?"
Bob: "Thanks, Sanjay, what is it good for?"
Sanjay: "Are you ready?! Get this: It's Google's email service!!
Bob: "Okay... what's so great about it?"
Sanjay: "Didn't you hear me? It's Google!"
Bob: "So what? I alread have Hotmail/Yahoo, I don't need another webmail service..."
Instead it went like:
Bob: "Okay... what's so great about it?"
Sanjay: "It gives you 2 gigs of storage and has great search capabilities."
Bob: "Excellent! I've been waiting for this all along!"
Bottom line is,
1. Gmail wouldn't have been so popular if it didn't actually offer something worthwhile, regardless of whatever marketing campaign they used, and
2. you wouldn't have your 2 GBs if it wasn't for Gmail, so don't pretend like you haven't benefitted at all from Gmail.
Do you think Yahoo would have given you those two gigs if gmail hadn't done it first?
"Maybe you're just gullible and will jump at every piece of marketing foisted in your direction ;)"
And how much marketing has Google given gmail? Absolutely none.
I'm curous, what were you searching for where yahoo did a better job than google? What terms did you use, and what site or result satisfied you?
I know agism is lame, but I'm impressed with teenagers ( no offense) who manage to do more with their life than I've done to the present point. I've got 10 years on you, and I'm starting to feel like a geezer who hasn't amounted to much. It has to do with guys like you involved in projects like this ;)
So, the guy who rescued Castle Infinity is anywhere between 10-15 years old? Sheesh.
Wouldn't gravity changing at 3-5 millimeters mean that people would notice its effects in everyday life?
I'm talking more like "I asked this company to stop automatically charging my card each month. I asked them to close the account and they said they did, but they keep charging me." If you issue a chargeback, then that company charges you again for the 'outstanding balance' you owe them, plus a chargeback fee.
We need a new system based on PGP or something. A system where we have single-use transaction numbers, and you have give a PGP signature for each usage of a transaction number. Right now it's way to easy for hackers to steal credit card information, or for unethical merchants to make unauthorized charges. We need to put the consumer back in charge of their own finances.
Currently , any 'merchant' can charge whatever they want once they have your credit card number. Sure, you can issue a chargeback or contest the charges, but why should *you* have to clean up after someone messes with your account? It's ridiculous.