Oh ? One more whiney post-dotbomber opens his trap ? Please babyjane, go back to school, and learn some etiquette. I'm not whining about my "financial position". Life is unfair, get over it. But just because life is unfair doesn't mean you just sit and take it.
In this economy it's not so easy to quit. Do you have a family ? Do you have kids ? It sounds as though you don't. But if you do, and you're self-employed, then shut the FSCK up, because your talking apples and oranges.
Maybe someday when you grow up, and have someone call you "Dad", it might just dawn on you what the reality of it is. Hopefully for the rest of us within Darwin's view of human development, that won't come to pass....SNIP...SNIP, another branch off the tree.
Right up until that point where they realized that "Hey, that clown pushing paper around and sipping latte didn't make this product the success it is, I did"...then they'd wake up and smell the manure.
You are age shows, and it's still green the gills. Either crawl back into the primordial swamp, or take a deep whiff of reality.
It's not socialism, it's society. Get with the program. You don't have to be a democrat to be fed up with most company's business practices.
I dunno, maybe because that's what democracy is about. The people... vote... for their leader...
You mean like way the French "elected" Bonaparte ? No, that's right...he sequestered the Legislature, right ? That's right. Right.....the people got to VOTE in France too. I see. They also voted Chiraq and a string of their predecessors who support, and supply aid to a communist dictator while guising it as "humanitarian aid" ? Yeah, right, you guys have a handle on voting someone with some scruples.
Yet, when it comes to the constitution, this boldness and self-confidence disappear. It's as if Americans said to themselves:"the founding fathers were better and wiser people than we'll ever be; there's no point in criticising, let alone trying to improve their work"
Remind me again how many times the French Constitution had to be RE-WRITTEN from scratch ( and many others ) ? The American Constitution may not be the be all end all ( when it comes time for the final analysis ), but it certainly saved your and many other's sorry asses. It's the Constitution that, as you so mightily point out, gives most Americans that "SENSE" of "I can fucking do this !" attitude. Where did YOU think that attitude came from ? The Bible ? Sure that may have been the wellspring, after all, many of those "fallible" ( as you nicely point out ) founding fathers, were in fact, relative-speaking, religious folk. For overall, as a country, religious and secular, it's our Constitution, that gives us our strong "CONSTITUTION" when problems arise.
But I think it's worrying because it blocks progress.
Who's progress ? Yours ? Let's see, there aren't any more pogroms in Russia, no more concentration camps in northern and eastern Europe. No more ( that we know of ) Killing Fields in Cambodia. Now we're left with religious fundamentalists who have the notion that every sentence has to start and end with the word Jihad! And here's a little tidbit for you to chew on. Remember that Constitution you think is blocking progress, it's that same Constitution that CAN tell Christian Fundamentalists to JUST COOL YOUR JETS, if they get too far in anyone's face ( it sounds like you don't like those folks too much ). It's that same Constitution that allows you to mouth OFF within the U.S., assuming you're located within the U.S., ( I know this website is operated within the U.S. ).
Similarly, I think that political systems should evolve and improve..... More to the point, if it was adapted to the USA of the 1780's maybe it's partly obsolete today.
There, I'll agree with you, but you know what, there's already a mechanism in place for that. It's called an Ammendment, and I can tell you that we've had a few of those go by. Some of them WAY
overdue !
I agree it's good to question, but you don't see trees questioning their roots. They may bend in the wind, and try to right themselves, but they stay grounded, and are stronger for it. I like to think that THAT is the proper analogy for this "quasi-religion" you ascribe American's steadfast believe in their Constitution. As a matter of fact, we don't mind if you borrow it..try it out, take it out for a spin. You might actually like it yourselves. But don't forget to change the Earl ( or High Potentate ) every so often.
Damn...for a guy with a nick named after the main ruling communist body, you sure do sound like a Capitalist PIG. That was a compliment, by the way.
Anyway, you're ABSO-F$cking-lutely right ! 100% on the money. What ? Don't you think that HUNDREDS of those shareware programs ARE worth the few sheckels tha guy's asking for ? Sure they are. Are they getting rich ? HELL NO !
Why, because of EXACTLY the reasons you mention. And then you have costs like documentation, QA, support, etc..etc.. All that costs money.
Even if you're a genius and can take an idea from soup to nuts and get it out there. Every minute you spend on support, is a minute you're either not coding a new feature for a new version that will give your company growth, or.....anothe minute that you're not there making another sale.
And then again, how many different "Pool Maintenance Manager" programs can co-exist, and give enough people a livelihood to make it feasible for them to pursue in the first place ? What ? Do you think everybody ( maybe you single clowns can, but us family folks....fohgeddabboudit ) has the amount of time it takes to get something like that out there, and still keep their day job ? Or...conversely, have the seed money to keep their lights on while they're doing it. Of course, not.
Yes I've worked on side projects here and there, and it's made me some $$, but not NEAR enough to retire on, I assure you. It's not a "woe is me" attitude, it's a REALITY attitude....if you're single and you can make it happen... FANTASTIC...knock yourself the hell out.
But, if you're like most of us ( and there are STILL more of us "old guys" out there than there are of you younger turks ), you have to balance the needs of the many ( the kids ) over the needs of the few ( Gee, wouldn't it be nice to have my own software company down in the florida keys ).
Congratulations, you did very similar to what I did 20 years ago. Jumped to CC from HS, started as a programming intern counting fish ( National Marine Fisheries Service ) in BASIC, and worked my way through college.
Fast Forward almost 20 years...
It's more screwed up than I've ever seen it...and NO...ADO+ is not wholly like ADO.NET ( and the beta samples of ADO.NET that were around in 2000 wouldn't even work today if you tried to )..so NO...ADO.NET ( especially if you count from.NET 1.0 release ) has NOT been around 5 years. How do I know ? Because I know someone who worked AT MS back in their early 1.0 to middle 1.1 development days, and so confirmed it with a 2nd opinion.
But anyway...upper posters opinion is strongly valid. The entry market for programmers today is NOTHING like it was in my days coming through and out from college. Big names like Itty Bitty Machine company are in fact not only NOT hiring much in the US ( entry level or not ), they're sending more and more jobs to places like China, India, and Brazil( say what ?). I shudder to think of OS/2 having been developed there rather than where we did ( Boca Raton, Fla. ). It was bad enough juggling time zones between IBM UK ( Where Presentation Manager/2 was partially developed ) and MS in Redmond, WA..
And no offense, congrats to you and your achievements, but the brandishing about of titles ( Hell, I've been a Senior Engineer for a while now ) is a joke. Bosses can marry ( and un-marry I might add ) any title to anyone at the drop of a hat. I did a contracting stint for a medical claims processing company before coming where I'm presently employed, and while I was there....IT guy ( their ONLY IT GUY ) left suddenly. They offered me a little incentive bonus to also look out for their backups, and solve the odd and end ( I can't get my email ) problem. The next week, though I wasn't even an EMPLOYEE of their company...I get cards that read "Director of IT". I couldn't stop laughing on the drive home that night. All I'm saying is....let yourself get too "comfy" with the title....There is a guy, right now, in a little office...somewhere in Mumbai, who's while he may not know it at this moment ( and you either ), could very well end up with YOUR title...IF...we don't find a solution to this that works equitably for us all.
Versus me, where the company I'd been with for 5 years, a month after 911 ( may those we lost not be forgotten ) lost 3 major contracts that they'd counted on, and did a major downsizing. Myself, another Sr. Engineer, and our Director left. Or rather the two of (Sr. Engineers) were downsized, and the Director left in disgust as they were planning on downsizing again. I was out of work for 8 1/2 months....I still have copies of all the resumes I sent out, the people at the unemployment office actually said "pace yourself". Obviously they didn't realize I still had to pay child support despite being unemployed ( not to mention feed, and house myself ). I was saving up for a house, and had to burn through my savings just to stay afloat.
Then to find that salaries had tanked. I don't buy that all these younger folks were working ungodly hours. I STILL work hallacious hours and I MAKE time to spend with my kid. So that younger workers put in "the time" and they should get a little extra for it ? Get real.
The raises ( when they're being offered ) are ridiculous, and they don't account anywhere near the C.O.L. increases, because while interest rates are down, everything else is up.
Frankly, has anyone over at Salary.COM actually UPDATED their salary figures since 2001 ? And if they have, and the salary ranges that they have listed are REALISITIC, then where in the hell are those jobs, because I'll tell you this much. The jobs in my area aren't paying what the ranges on SALARY.COM says they're paying.
Is it the same elsewhere in the U.S ? Has anyone else encountered that ? Or tried to use that as justification for either helping get a raise, or in setting their initial base salary ?
It's not a matter of being over anything. Get in touch, and stop bitching because someone has an argument you can't break down, so you have to resort to attacking the person directly. And yes, we ARE that special.
Except Steel workers, or textile factory workers ( My mother was one ) don't necessarily have the EXPRESSIVE NECESSITY to KEEP UP with technology. A sewing machine, even with advances in technology, has essentially remained technically at the same level it has been for 100 years...it weaves two strands ( or more ) of thread together to form a bond. Software development, on the other hand, grows like a living being, stretching into vast and numerous areas, as it pervades more and more of application into people's lives. That factor alone discredits and nullifies any conceivably logical argument or point you might've though you had.
It's RIDICULOUS to think that just because people in the industry ( Who had a union, which most Software Engineers do NOT), can be compared to the steel industry which is a raw material based industry ( you either acquire it, or process it, or make something with it for someone who will use it...as STEEL ), with Software Development and lots of other IT-based industries. IT or Software can't and shouldn't be equated with a raw materials-based industry. Do you really think the US became the monster of industry it became in the 20th century because of the STEEL industry ? Get REAL...it was technology....and if the US gives that away, we might as well go back to operating steam powered machinery.
Get real....get in touch..and quit making stupid rationalizations.
Of course a Mod has to set this as "Troll"...because of course that person has no answer to the question put before them ? I had mod points when this topic came up, rather than Mod this thread, I chose to contribute by posting my opinion, and of course, because someone didn't like it, and yet couldn't offer any substantive rebuttal, Modding me Troll was of course, the "adult" thing to do.
Suits me just fine....You don't like what I have to say....no problem, it doesn't change that I'm still right. Like some skiff boat captains.....
"MoneyDance and pdf-Office are two I know of. Its hard telling since no one generally advertises what they made their product with. Whens the last time you picked something up at Best Buy that stated it was written in C++?"
A) Oh Yeah ? You find it in the product catalog. B) They don't have to, most commercial product out there have been written in a combination of C/C++/VB and when necessary, some scripting language. Java, has yet to be ( and will continue to not be ) accepted as an acceptable platform for commercial applications because the benefits it provides for the "Enterprise" aren't the same set of goals necessary for commercial success of a on-the-shelf product. Neither of those show up at BestBuy/CompUsa or Office Depot/OfficeMax...Where exactly did you say you could buy them off the shelf ? Oh, that's right, you didn't.
How many have on-the-shelf products have you done ? I have several ranging from programmable mice ( InterAct(R) Programmable Wireless Mouse ), to software used to produce some of the very commercials your TV is playing in the background, while you're on the eating your cheese doodles. The goals and needs of software that GrandPa Joe, and Auntie Sue would need to use, just AREN'T capable of being MET, by JAVA....at least not yet. How come we never hear about any usability studies done on Java desktop software.....that's because there aren't that many, and those that are, are VERY VERY vertical in nature.
"if you look hard enough kid."
I've been in this industry 20 years, and programming long before that....whippersnapper. And for that matter, sure, a direct link would've been better, but do some research....like I have. But then again, I'm not here to disprove your point, you're here to prove yours. Oh that's right, you didn't post a link to where to buy MoneyDance. Awww.
".NET does not have a multi-app virtual machine."
Au Contraire Mon Frere.....NET most certainly DOES NOT spawn another "VM" to run a 2nd.NET application. Remember that.NET isn't "exactly" a VM, moreso an "Application Framework". You better do some reading.
>"Show me a JVM app (app, not test case!) with a >native compiled equivalent which is slower. You >won't find any." >>You generally wont find an app written in both C >>and Java. Developers usually pick one or the >>other. Why write the same app twice? This makes >>finding good examples pretty hard.
Find, find me ONE commerically available ( NON-GAME ) application that you can buy at bestbuy, office depot, staples, CompUsa, FRYS !! That provides a business or home utility function for a user's desktop OS. Windows, Linux, OS X !...Ahh...written in JAVA.
I can tell you right now you're not going to find one on a retail shelf here in Miami. Oh, and I know, there are no FRY'S here in Miami, that was wishful thinking on my part.
And hey....Why don't you try to...actually READ some of the links that are as a result the google search, some of the were rather informative.
What? You can't go back to google and type in LLVM ? What ? Did you use up your Google minutes for this month, and you're worried about overage charges ?
Oh, and about multiple apps within the same JVM...you mean what.NET does right now ? ( Not that I'm a big RAH_RAH MS fan either ). And since 1.5 isn't out (I've been hearing about 1.5 for almost two years ), I'm not going to even CONSIDER something that even charades-like SOUNDS like 1.6 for at least 2 years. At which point we'll be staring at impending LongHorn, where THE OS is.NET-ified, or.NET is OS-ified...you'll just find it harder to tell them apart. Well, most mortals will anyway.
Now there's a product ( Swing SUITE ) I want to invest my money on.....almost $900 for a "Platform Extension"....nevermind any new widgets. Essentially what SWT/JFACE are, but without the "Free-ness". Yeah, that's a platform to inspire confidence. And what's more, you don't get access to any of the code ! It's Closed Source. Yipee...
And...one..two..three, FOUR MORE LAYERS of CRUFT on top of SWING itself. That's great...sure...pile on the layers in the UI..I don't care, I have all the time in the world to wait while my little application loads...Screen Refreshes ? I'm not worried, with my GeForce 6800....I only get flicker SOME of the time.
Oh, and for the record....The next time you want to think of lousy implementations...let's talk about the use of keystores and key files for supporting SSL in Java...Geezus H You know who. If only it WERE only 10 lines of code ( lousy or not ) you had to write to support it efficiently.
Java may work for enterprise in the back orifice, but it's certainly nowhere near ready for prime time. You try putting a Java GUI application replacement for Quickbooks ( or Word, or Excel ) on a PC ( or a Mac ) in front of your grandma and tell her to use it for maintaining her records, or her email, or what have you. You can forget about those wonderful toll house cookies kiddies ! Grandma's on strike until that Caffeine-like named behemoth ( old school word for something really BIG ) is out of her pretty pastel colored computer. And you can forget about that new sweater she was going to knit for you, too !
Sure, you can put Java on servers, run enterprise processes with it efficiently ( not that there aren't other alternatives that will do JUST as well , perhaps even better. )....but none of those "novelty" item categories you mentioned in any way near approach "proof" level that JAVA APPLICATION UI performance, is anywhere near what would be considered RESPONSIVE ( Yeah, there's a word for you ) for the average home user. Yeah, maybe a few tech folks ( ok, maybe more than a few ), will tolerate it...but Joe SixPack won't, neither will Jane SixAbs.
Anyone can PUNCH a hole on the screen and draw pretty colors that look like explosions, Java 3D may even be a reasonable alternative to some other modelling and transform systems out there...but in DESKTOP applications..it's not there yet. Why do you think all you hear these days is "Rich Thin Clients", "XUL, XUL !"....GMAB. Not everything is "FORMS" based guys, and wait till you try to do a RTC ( Rich Thin Client ) in JAVA that approaches the level of functionality of a desktop application. Do you really think a user's going to sit there waiting for the UI to refresh itself. He'll be, "What in tarnation is this dang fool of a browser think it's doin' ? I keep clicking this reload button, but I keep just gettin' three buttons. Oh....so that's how they do circles on computers so perfectly round...Hoooooeee...just look at those dots drawin'. Aww shucks...erased itself. No...here are the buttons....shoot erased itself again......"
Sir, as a United States citizen and resident of the neighboring state of Florida, I have recently read of what I feel compelled to draw your attention to. It would appear that we have another occurance in your state, of that abhorrent "act of nature" called the Peter Principle. Where a person attempting to engage in a reasonable, and rational response to obvious government waste, and attempted to document such waste, with the means at his disposal, is dismissed. And here is where the Peter Principle comes into play, the supervisor conducting themselves inappropriately is given essentially a slap on the wrist.
I don't know about yourself, and I don't wish to judge on your behalf, but in the state of Florida, I'd call a government worker who spent a considerable amount of his or her time either playing solitaire or checking their stock portfolios, wasting tax payer dollars. And believe you me, this Floridian, and many others, would certainly be calling or writing our esteemed governor, Mr. Jeb Bush, to ask you to take a proactive part in the process of getting to the bottom of the matter.
I believe you yourself, are concerned with government waste, and have made mention of this in your own platform in running for Governor. I draw you attention to just two paragraphs from your "Historic Opportunity for Change" speech:
Paragraph 6 of that speech states: "We've begun the long journey of restoring the people's trust in their government. By telling the truth, by conducting an open administration, by making decisions based on merit and by driving out waste."
Furthermore, Paragraph 8 states, "Because of the budget reductions we enacted, Alabama now has the most cost-conscious and efficient government we've had in decades. The disclosures and accountability reforms we've already put in place have given us the most open and transparent government we've had in decades."
I'm certain that others may very well have quoted similar passages, as your own statements, and obvious strong feelings towards the matter are quite appropo to Mr Blake's case before the Alabama Department of Transportation.
I must say, that after reading some of what's written up surrounding this case, I'm going to write ( and tell my friends and family to do likewise ) to our own Governor, and remind him that he better NOT be letting OUR department of transportation be running like this. As while he himself is in office, WE will be voting for bigger fish this November, and beyond.
Twenty-One years of unblemished service, and an honest attempt to ferret out waste which you yourself have made the call to eliminate ; being met with dismissal, do not, in this simple citizens eyes, constitute fair justice. And I'm sure MANY other's, including thousands of Alabama's good citizens would feel that there is merit in correcting this unjust action. I enjoin you to take a personal and proactive part in bringing this matter to a more judicious and even-handed resolution.
Fine...so suppose they are allowed to ( Which I'm still not fully convinced the GPL implies things as you're stating them ). That still doesn't negate other clauses in the GPL which govern "reasonable means of software distribution". While sure, I can buy software on CD today, it's usually because I'm walking into a BRICK AND MORTAR establishment. That being said, unless you are so darned close to the Swedish archipelago that you can ROW the kilometer to his house, and ask him to burn you a personal copy of the CD containing the software, there is NO BLOODY way you're going to convince ANY sentient bipedal Homo Sapien, that $49 for a cd with source code, is "reasonable cost of distribution".
It just doesn't FLY, Thomas....here are your oars...start rowing. Make sure you don't forget to bring a blank CD, or it's another $5.00 !
That's my whole point....if you have to wait with baited breath, what's the big deal. But then again, I didn't expect anyone to "get it" anyways. ( waves his SDK 1.03 5.25" floppies. You'd be hard pressed to find individuals who personally own and HAVE USED this for real work(circa 1986/87)...talk about clay tablet programming. ) Ask Dave Cutler about the last person who asked him what a "Mutant Object " is in the NT Kernel..and see what he says. First you'd have to know/remember who Dave Cutler is...but hey, you're an MVP...you should know this stuff like old hat, right ?
As is the case with most college students I come across as interns.
Whomever in the python newsgroup got the impression that C++ was premature optimization obviously show little mature of character, much less of programming, or application much less algorithmic design. It's not meant as a personal affront to them, but in general. In college you have it droned into you that things be generalized as this, or that, when in reality, you'll hardly ever truly run across generalizations when developing solutions for business or practical matter. Generalizations are the strata that academia wrap themselves in so that they can have some semblance of mysticism without ever having to deal with "specifics". I loved the statement, "the solution is trivial at this point". Ever ask an anesthesiologist if the solution to how much anesthesia he applies is ever trivial ? Doubtful.
Why ? Because specificity IS the solution. All these modern pseudo-code script languages allow you to speak in generality to the solution of a problem, and use the argument that we can "throw more CPU or memory at it"...it is after all "cheaper" these days. I've not seen ONE client who's casually ( much less that dismissively ) agree that "Sure, we can buy another rack of servers each with a couple of gigs of ram, and a few 250Gb hard drives...why not, it's "cheaper" these days. Yeah, right ! Just to make the programmers life easier and let him design a program in one of those languages that doesn't require much specificity. Of course it says NO SMALL THING, that all the companies listed on the Haskell main site are companies with the revenue to push something like Haskell. But in MOST cases, that is not the case. And it will continue to not be the case, as long as there are bean counters watching IT budgets. And if anything in life is as sure as death and taxes, it'll be that accountants and comptrollers will ALWAYS have the last laugh.
Doubt me ? You don't have to look far into the past for proof, just look at DOT bust. So when in doubt, don't generalize, much less program in it.
As for perl, programming in perl is like going for a root canal in the days before NOX. You know it's going to be painful.
Where to start...you poor misguided anonymous coward. I know...almost at the beginning.
"ML, OCaml, Haskell, Lisp etc, are all compiled languages, with runtime speeds comparable to compiled C/C++."
If you read from the introduction to Haskell itself, even THERE it clearly states that in cases where "In applications where performance is required at any cost" ( direct quote ) C( and by inference C++ ) is the better choice, and since I've yet to see a Lisp compiler generate code anywhere NEAR what a C/C++ parser itself can generate, I'd say that applies there as well. I will, however, concede that with things like GreenCard, it may be possible to create a mixed language system that could both provide some HLL "ease" of use along with little or no compromises in speed.
If you can write perl code, and the other guys on your team can't, respectfully suggest to them that they wash their hands before they code.
Exactly my point ! The point is most propellerheads today have this Jihadish leaning towards Java. What ? You expect the framework to save your a$$e$ or something ? Good , if that were the case, then you could compile a java jvm with itself and call it well and good. Do most of you even realize that most JVM's are written a language that starts with the third letter of the English language ?
Get in touch with reality, just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean you should, or weren't the rest of your liberals listening to yourselves when you squawked that Bush shouldn't go into Iraq for this or that reason....same THING with Java. Just because SWING/SWT exist, doesn't mean they're anywhere near where other visual frameworks are in terms of richness. Exactly where do you think the concepts for templates and generic programming came from ? Cobol ? Fortran ? Smalltalk ?
Please....if you're going to berate C++, then stop use KDE, GNOME, or just about any replacement desktop ( for linux or otherwise ). Write yourself a replacement shell in Java....let's see how far we get with that. ( curious reminder of where earlier projects to produce a Java Client PC system are today ).
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Oh ? One more whiney post-dotbomber opens his trap ? Please babyjane, go back to school, and learn some etiquette. I'm not whining about my "financial position". Life is unfair, get over it. But just because life is unfair doesn't mean you just sit and take it.
Of course, another anonymous coward sticks his head up from the reeds, just about the point where the predator comes looking for lunch.
Insults about trailer parks don't work anymore, please see Jeff Foxworthy and his now-defunct "Blue Collar" humor if you want someone to laugh at.
Otherwise, kwityerbitchin, if you don't "get it", you don't. Shut up and let the adults actually accomplish something.
In this economy it's not so easy to quit. Do you have a family ? Do you have kids ? It sounds as though you don't. But if you do, and you're self-employed, then shut the FSCK up, because your talking apples and oranges.
Maybe someday when you grow up, and have someone call you "Dad", it might just dawn on you what the reality of it is. Hopefully for the rest of us within Darwin's view of human development, that won't come to pass....SNIP...SNIP, another branch off the tree.
Right up until that point where they realized that "Hey, that clown pushing paper around and sipping latte didn't make this product the success it is, I did"...then they'd wake up and smell the manure.
You are age shows, and it's still green the gills. Either crawl back into the primordial swamp, or take a deep whiff of reality.
It's not socialism, it's society. Get with the program. You don't have to be a democrat to be fed up with most company's business practices.
You mean like way the French "elected" Bonaparte ? No, that's right...he sequestered the Legislature, right ? That's right. Right.....the people got to VOTE in France too. I see. They also voted Chiraq and a string of their predecessors who support, and supply aid to a communist dictator while guising it as "humanitarian aid" ? Yeah, right, you guys have a handle on voting someone with some scruples.
Yet, when it comes to the constitution, this boldness and self-confidence disappear. It's as if Americans said to themselves
Remind me again how many times the French Constitution had to be RE-WRITTEN from scratch ( and many others ) ? The American Constitution may not be the be all end all ( when it comes time for the final analysis ), but it certainly saved your and many other's sorry asses. It's the Constitution that, as you so mightily point out, gives most Americans that "SENSE" of "I can fucking do this !" attitude. Where did YOU think that attitude came from ? The Bible ? Sure that may have been the wellspring, after all, many of those "fallible" ( as you nicely point out ) founding fathers, were in fact, relative-speaking, religious folk. For overall, as a country, religious and secular, it's our Constitution, that gives us our strong "CONSTITUTION" when problems arise.
But I think it's worrying because it blocks progress.
Who's progress ? Yours ? Let's see, there aren't any more pogroms in Russia, no more concentration camps in northern and eastern Europe. No more ( that we know of ) Killing Fields in Cambodia. Now we're left with religious fundamentalists who have the notion that every sentence has to start and end with the word Jihad! And here's a little tidbit for you to chew on. Remember that Constitution you think is blocking progress, it's that same Constitution that CAN tell Christian Fundamentalists to JUST COOL YOUR JETS, if they get too far in anyone's face ( it sounds like you don't like those folks too much ). It's that same Constitution that allows you to mouth OFF within the U.S., assuming you're located within the U.S., ( I know this website is operated within the U.S. ).
Similarly, I think that political systems should evolve and improve.
There, I'll agree with you, but you know what, there's already a mechanism in place for that. It's called an Ammendment, and I can tell you that we've had a few of those go by. Some of them WAY overdue !
I agree it's good to question, but you don't see trees questioning their roots. They may bend in the wind, and try to right themselves, but they stay grounded, and are stronger for it. I like to think that THAT is the proper analogy for this "quasi-religion" you ascribe American's steadfast believe in their Constitution. As a matter of fact, we don't mind if you borrow it..try it out, take it out for a spin. You might actually like it yourselves. But don't forget to change the Earl ( or High Potentate ) every so often.
Well said.....
Damn...for a guy with a nick named after the main ruling communist body, you sure do sound like a Capitalist PIG. That was a compliment, by the way.
Anyway, you're ABSO-F$cking-lutely right ! 100% on the money. What ? Don't you think that HUNDREDS of those shareware programs ARE worth the few sheckels tha guy's asking for ? Sure they are. Are they getting rich ? HELL NO !
Why, because of EXACTLY the reasons you mention. And then you have costs like documentation, QA, support, etc..etc.. All that costs money.
Even if you're a genius and can take an idea from soup to nuts and get it out there. Every minute you spend on support, is a minute you're either not coding a new feature for a new version that will give your company growth, or.....anothe minute that you're not there making another sale.
And then again, how many different "Pool Maintenance Manager" programs can co-exist, and give enough people a livelihood to make it feasible for them to pursue in the first place ? What ? Do you think everybody ( maybe you single clowns can, but us family folks....fohgeddabboudit ) has the amount of time it takes to get something like that out there, and still keep their day job ? Or...conversely, have the seed money to keep their lights on while they're doing it. Of course, not.
Yes I've worked on side projects here and there, and it's made me some $$, but not NEAR enough to retire on, I assure you. It's not a "woe is me" attitude, it's a REALITY attitude....if you're single and you can make it happen...
FANTASTIC...knock yourself the hell out.
But, if you're like most of us ( and there are STILL more of us "old guys" out there than there are of you younger turks ), you have to balance the needs of the many ( the kids ) over the needs of the few ( Gee, wouldn't it be nice to have my own software company down in the florida keys ).
Congratulations, you did very similar to what I did 20 years ago. Jumped to CC from HS, started as a programming intern counting fish ( National Marine Fisheries Service ) in BASIC, and worked my way through college.
...and NO...ADO+ is not wholly like ADO.NET ( and the beta samples of ADO.NET that were around in 2000 wouldn't even work today if you tried to )..so NO...ADO.NET ( especially if you count from .NET 1.0 release ) has NOT been around 5 years. How do I know ? Because I know someone who worked AT MS back in their early 1.0 to middle 1.1 development days, and so confirmed it with a 2nd opinion.
Fast Forward almost 20 years...
It's more screwed up than I've ever seen it
But anyway...upper posters opinion is strongly valid. The entry market for programmers today is NOTHING like it was in my days coming through and out from college. Big names like Itty Bitty Machine company are in fact not only NOT hiring much in the US ( entry level or not ), they're sending more and more jobs to places like China, India, and Brazil( say what ?). I shudder to think of OS/2 having been developed there rather than where we did ( Boca Raton, Fla. ). It was bad enough juggling time zones between IBM UK ( Where Presentation Manager/2 was partially developed ) and MS in Redmond, WA..
And no offense, congrats to you and your achievements, but the brandishing about of titles ( Hell, I've been a Senior Engineer for a while now ) is a joke. Bosses can marry ( and un-marry I might add ) any title to anyone at the drop of a hat. I did a contracting stint for a medical claims processing company before coming where I'm presently employed, and while I was there....IT guy ( their ONLY IT GUY ) left suddenly. They offered me a little incentive bonus to also look out for their backups, and solve the odd and end ( I can't get my email ) problem. The next week, though I wasn't even an EMPLOYEE of their company...I get cards that read "Director of IT". I couldn't stop laughing on the drive home that night. All I'm saying is....let yourself get too "comfy" with the title....There is a guy, right now, in a little office...somewhere in Mumbai, who's while he may not know it at this moment ( and you either ), could very well end up with YOUR title...IF...we don't find a solution to this that works equitably for us all.
And aren't we glad that this is just your theory. A stupid one, but a theory nonetheless.
Versus me, where the company I'd been with for 5 years, a month after 911 ( may those we lost not be forgotten ) lost 3 major contracts that they'd counted on, and did a major downsizing. Myself, another Sr. Engineer, and our Director left. Or rather the two of (Sr. Engineers) were downsized, and the Director left in disgust as they were planning on downsizing again. I was out of work for 8 1/2 months....I still have copies of all the resumes I sent out, the people at the unemployment office actually said "pace yourself". Obviously they didn't realize I still had to pay child support despite being unemployed ( not to mention feed, and house myself ). I was saving up for a house, and had to burn through my savings just to stay afloat.
Then to find that salaries had tanked. I don't buy that all these younger folks were working ungodly hours. I STILL work hallacious hours and I MAKE time to spend with my kid. So that younger workers put in "the time" and they should get a little extra for it ? Get real.
The raises ( when they're being offered ) are ridiculous, and they don't account anywhere near the C.O.L. increases, because while interest rates are down, everything else is up.
Frankly, has anyone over at Salary.COM actually UPDATED their salary figures since 2001 ? And if they have, and the salary ranges that they have listed are REALISITIC, then where in the hell are those jobs, because I'll tell you this much. The jobs in my area aren't paying what the ranges on SALARY.COM says they're paying.
Is it the same elsewhere in the U.S ? Has anyone else encountered that ? Or tried to use that as justification for either helping get a raise, or in setting their initial base salary ?
It sucks to be you, doesn't it ?
It's not a matter of being over anything. Get in touch, and stop bitching because someone has an argument you can't break down, so you have to resort to attacking the person directly. And yes, we ARE that special.
Except Steel workers, or textile factory workers ( My mother was one ) don't necessarily have the EXPRESSIVE NECESSITY to KEEP UP with technology. A sewing machine, even with advances in technology, has essentially remained technically at the same level it has been for 100 years...it weaves two strands ( or more ) of thread together to form a bond. Software development, on the other hand, grows like a living being, stretching into vast and numerous areas, as it pervades more and more of application into people's lives. That factor alone discredits and nullifies any conceivably logical argument or point you might've though you had.
It's RIDICULOUS to think that just because people in the industry ( Who had a union, which most Software Engineers do NOT), can be compared to the steel industry which is a raw material based industry ( you either acquire it, or process it, or make something with it for someone who will use it...as STEEL ), with Software Development and lots of other IT-based industries. IT or Software can't and shouldn't be equated with a raw materials-based industry. Do you really think the US became the monster of industry it became in the 20th century because of the STEEL industry ? Get REAL...it was technology....and if the US gives that away, we might as well go back to operating steam powered machinery.
Get real....get in touch..and quit making stupid rationalizations.
Of course a Mod has to set this as "Troll"...because of course that person has no answer to the question put before them ? I had mod points when this topic came up, rather than Mod this thread, I chose to contribute by posting my opinion, and of course, because someone didn't like it, and yet couldn't offer any substantive rebuttal, Modding me Troll was of course, the "adult" thing to do.
Suits me just fine....You don't like what I have to say....no problem, it doesn't change that I'm still right. Like some skiff boat captains.....
"MoneyDance and pdf-Office are two I know of. Its hard telling since no one generally advertises what they made their product with. Whens the last time you picked something up at Best Buy that stated it was written in C++?"
.NET most certainly DOES NOT spawn another "VM" to run a 2nd .NET application. Remember that .NET isn't "exactly" a VM, moreso an "Application Framework". You better do some reading.
A) Oh Yeah ? You find it in the product catalog.
B) They don't have to, most commercial product out there have been written in a combination of C/C++/VB and when necessary, some scripting language. Java, has yet to be ( and will continue to not be ) accepted as an acceptable platform for commercial applications because the benefits it provides for the "Enterprise" aren't the same set of goals necessary for commercial success of a on-the-shelf product. Neither of those show up at BestBuy/CompUsa or Office Depot/OfficeMax...Where exactly did you say you could buy them off the shelf ? Oh, that's right, you didn't.
How many have on-the-shelf products have you done ? I have several ranging from programmable mice ( InterAct(R) Programmable Wireless Mouse ), to software used to produce some of the very commercials your TV is playing in the background, while you're on the eating your cheese doodles. The goals and needs of software that GrandPa Joe, and Auntie Sue would need to use, just AREN'T capable of being MET, by JAVA....at least not yet. How come we never hear about any usability studies done on Java desktop software.....that's because there aren't that many, and those that are, are VERY VERY vertical in nature.
"if you look hard enough kid."
I've been in this industry 20 years, and programming long before that....whippersnapper. And for that matter, sure, a direct link would've been better, but do some research....like I have. But then again, I'm not here to disprove your point, you're here to prove yours. Oh that's right, you didn't post a link to where to buy MoneyDance. Awww.
".NET does not have a multi-app virtual machine."
Au Contraire Mon Frere....
>"Show me a JVM app (app, not test case!) with a >native compiled equivalent which is slower. You >won't find any."
...Ahh...written in JAVA.
.NET does right now ? ( Not that I'm a big RAH_RAH MS fan either ). And since 1.5 isn't out (I've been hearing about 1.5 for almost two years ), I'm not going to even CONSIDER something that even charades-like SOUNDS like 1.6 for at least 2 years. At which point we'll be staring at impending LongHorn, where THE OS is .NET-ified, or .NET is OS-ified...you'll just find it harder to tell them apart. Well, most mortals will anyway.
>>You generally wont find an app written in both C >>and Java. Developers usually pick one or the >>other. Why write the same app twice? This makes >>finding good examples pretty hard.
Find, find me ONE commerically available ( NON-GAME ) application that you can buy at bestbuy, office depot, staples, CompUsa, FRYS !! That provides a business or home utility function for a user's desktop OS. Windows, Linux, OS X !
I can tell you right now you're not going to find one on a retail shelf here in Miami. Oh, and I know, there are no FRY'S here in Miami, that was wishful thinking on my part.
And hey....Why don't you try to...actually READ some of the links that are as a result the google search, some of the were rather informative.
What? You can't go back to google and type in LLVM ? What ? Did you use up your Google minutes for this month, and you're worried about overage charges ?
Oh, and about multiple apps within the same JVM...you mean what
JGoodies.com
Now there's a product ( Swing SUITE ) I want to invest my money on.....almost $900 for a "Platform Extension"....nevermind any new widgets. Essentially what SWT/JFACE are, but without the "Free-ness". Yeah, that's a platform to inspire confidence. And what's more, you don't get access to any of the code ! It's Closed Source. Yipee...
And...one..two..three, FOUR MORE LAYERS of CRUFT on top of SWING itself. That's great...sure...pile on the layers in the UI..I don't care, I have all the time in the world to wait while my little application loads...Screen Refreshes ? I'm not worried, with my GeForce 6800....I only get flicker SOME of the time.
Oh, and for the record....The next time you want to think of lousy implementations...let's talk about the use of keystores and key files for supporting SSL in Java...Geezus H You know who. If only it WERE only 10 lines of code ( lousy or not ) you had to write to support it efficiently.
Java may work for enterprise in the back orifice, but it's certainly nowhere near ready for prime time. You try putting a Java GUI application replacement for Quickbooks ( or Word, or Excel ) on a PC ( or a Mac ) in front of your grandma and tell her to use it for maintaining her records, or her email, or what have you. You can forget about those wonderful toll house cookies kiddies ! Grandma's on strike until that Caffeine-like named behemoth ( old school word for something really BIG ) is out of her pretty pastel colored computer. And you can forget about that new sweater she was going to knit for you, too !
Sure, you can put Java on servers, run enterprise processes with it efficiently ( not that there aren't other alternatives that will do JUST as well , perhaps even better. )....but none of those "novelty" item categories you mentioned in any way near approach "proof" level that JAVA APPLICATION UI performance, is anywhere near what would be considered RESPONSIVE ( Yeah, there's a word for you ) for the average home user. Yeah, maybe a few tech folks ( ok, maybe more than a few ), will tolerate it...but Joe SixPack won't, neither will Jane SixAbs.
Anyone can PUNCH a hole on the screen and draw pretty colors that look like explosions, Java 3D may even be a reasonable alternative to some other modelling and transform systems out there...but in DESKTOP applications..it's not there yet. Why do you think all you hear these days is "Rich Thin Clients", "XUL, XUL !"....GMAB. Not everything is "FORMS" based guys, and wait till you try to do a RTC ( Rich Thin Client ) in JAVA that approaches the level of functionality of a desktop application. Do you really think a user's going to sit there waiting for the UI to refresh itself. He'll be, "What in tarnation is this dang fool of a browser think it's doin' ? I keep clicking this reload button, but I keep just gettin' three buttons. Oh....so that's how they do circles on computers so perfectly round...Hoooooeee...just look at those dots drawin'. Aww shucks...erased itself. No...here are the buttons....shoot erased itself again......"
To the Honorable Governor Robert Riley,
Sir, as a United States citizen and resident of the neighboring state of Florida, I have recently read of what I feel compelled to draw your attention to. It would appear that we have another occurance in your state, of that abhorrent "act of nature" called the Peter Principle. Where a person attempting to engage in a reasonable, and rational response to obvious government waste, and attempted to document such waste, with the means at his disposal, is dismissed. And here is where the Peter Principle comes into play, the supervisor conducting themselves inappropriately is given essentially a slap on the wrist.
I don't know about yourself, and I don't wish to judge on your behalf, but in the state of Florida, I'd call a government worker who spent a considerable amount of his or her time either playing solitaire or checking their stock portfolios, wasting tax payer dollars. And believe you me, this Floridian, and many others, would certainly be calling or writing our esteemed governor, Mr. Jeb Bush, to ask you to take a proactive part in the process of getting to the bottom of the matter.
I believe you yourself, are concerned with government waste, and have made mention of this in your own platform in running for Governor. I draw you attention to just two paragraphs from your "Historic Opportunity for Change" speech:
Paragraph 6 of that speech states: "We've begun the long journey of restoring the people's trust in their government. By telling the truth, by conducting an open administration, by making decisions based on merit and by driving out waste."
Furthermore, Paragraph 8 states, "Because of the budget reductions we enacted, Alabama now has the most cost-conscious and efficient government we've had in decades. The disclosures and accountability reforms we've already put in place have given us the most open and transparent government we've had in decades."
I'm certain that others may very well have quoted similar passages, as your own statements, and obvious strong feelings towards the matter are quite appropo to Mr Blake's case before the Alabama Department of Transportation.
I must say, that after reading some of what's written up surrounding this case, I'm going to write ( and tell my friends and family to do likewise ) to our own Governor, and remind him that he better NOT be letting OUR department of transportation be running like this. As while he himself is in office, WE will be voting for bigger fish this November, and beyond.
Twenty-One years of unblemished service, and an honest attempt to ferret out waste which you yourself have made the call to eliminate ; being met with dismissal, do not, in this simple citizens eyes, constitute fair justice. And I'm sure MANY other's, including thousands of Alabama's good citizens would feel that there is merit in correcting this unjust action. I enjoin you to take a personal and proactive part in bringing this matter to a more judicious and even-handed resolution.
With Warmest Regards from the Sunshine State,
Fine...so suppose they are allowed to ( Which I'm still not fully convinced the GPL implies things as you're stating them ). That still doesn't negate other clauses in the GPL which govern "reasonable means of software distribution". While sure, I can buy software on CD today, it's usually because I'm walking into a BRICK AND MORTAR establishment. That being said, unless you are so darned close to the Swedish archipelago that you can ROW the kilometer to his house, and ask him to burn you a personal copy of the CD containing the software, there is NO BLOODY way you're going to convince ANY sentient bipedal Homo Sapien, that $49 for a cd with source code, is "reasonable cost of distribution".
It just doesn't FLY, Thomas....here are your oars...start rowing. Make sure you don't forget to bring a blank CD, or it's another $5.00 !
See ? I knew there wasn't going to be a comeback to my statement...it's always the same....silly elitist -like crap with MVP's...
That's my whole point....if you have to wait with baited breath, what's the big deal. But then again, I didn't expect anyone to "get it" anyways. ( waves his SDK 1.03 5.25" floppies. You'd be hard pressed to find individuals who personally own and HAVE USED this for real work(circa 1986/87)...talk about clay tablet programming. ) Ask Dave Cutler about the last person who asked him what a "Mutant Object " is in the NT Kernel..and see what he says. First you'd have to know/remember who Dave Cutler is...but hey, you're an MVP...you should know this stuff like old hat, right ?
Fine....where do I sign up ? ( as Jack Nicholson said as the Joker in "Batman", "wait'll they get a load'a me" ).
As is the case with most college students I come across as interns.
Whomever in the python newsgroup got the impression that C++ was premature optimization obviously show little mature of character, much less of programming, or application much less algorithmic design. It's not meant as a personal affront to them, but in general. In college you have it droned into you that things be generalized as this, or that, when in reality, you'll hardly ever truly run across generalizations when developing solutions for business or practical matter. Generalizations are the strata that academia wrap themselves in so that they can have some semblance of mysticism without ever having to deal with "specifics". I loved the statement, "the solution is trivial at this point". Ever ask an anesthesiologist if the solution to how much anesthesia he applies is ever trivial ? Doubtful.
Why ? Because specificity IS the solution. All these modern pseudo-code script languages allow you to speak in generality to the solution of a problem, and use the argument that we can "throw more CPU or memory at it"...it is after all "cheaper" these days. I've not seen ONE client who's casually ( much less that dismissively ) agree that "Sure, we can buy another rack of servers each with a couple of gigs of ram, and a few 250Gb hard drives...why not, it's "cheaper" these days. Yeah, right !
Just to make the programmers life easier and let him design a program in one of those languages that doesn't require much specificity. Of course it says NO SMALL THING, that all the companies listed on the Haskell main site are companies with the revenue to push something like Haskell. But in MOST cases, that is not the case. And it will continue to not be the case, as long as there are bean counters watching IT budgets. And if anything in life is as sure as death and taxes, it'll be that accountants and comptrollers will ALWAYS have the last laugh.
Doubt me ? You don't have to look far into the past for proof, just look at DOT bust. So when in doubt, don't generalize, much less program in it.
As for perl, programming in perl is like going for a root canal in the days before NOX. You know it's going to be painful.
Where to start...you poor misguided anonymous coward. I know...almost at the beginning.
"ML, OCaml, Haskell, Lisp etc, are all compiled languages, with runtime speeds comparable to compiled C/C++."
If you read from the introduction to Haskell itself, even THERE it clearly states that in cases where "In applications where performance is required at any cost" ( direct quote ) C( and by inference C++ ) is the better choice, and since I've yet to see a Lisp compiler generate code anywhere NEAR what a C/C++ parser itself can generate, I'd say that applies there as well.
I will, however, concede that with things like GreenCard, it may be possible to create a mixed language system that could both provide some HLL "ease" of use along with little or no compromises in speed.
If you can write perl code, and the other guys on your team can't, respectfully suggest to them that they wash their hands before they code.
Exactly my point ! The point is most propellerheads today have this Jihadish leaning towards Java. What ? You expect the framework to save your a$$e$ or something ? Good , if that were the case, then you could compile a java jvm with itself and call it well and good. Do most of you even realize that most JVM's are written a language that starts with the third letter of the English language ?
Get in touch with reality, just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean you should, or weren't the rest of your liberals listening to yourselves when you squawked that Bush shouldn't go into Iraq for this or that reason....same THING with Java. Just because SWING/SWT exist, doesn't mean they're anywhere near where other visual frameworks are in terms of richness. Exactly where do you think the concepts for templates and generic programming came from ? Cobol ? Fortran ? Smalltalk ?
Please....if you're going to berate C++, then stop use KDE, GNOME, or just about any replacement desktop ( for linux or otherwise ). Write yourself a replacement shell in Java....let's see how far we get with that. ( curious reminder of where earlier projects to produce a Java Client PC system are today ).
^^^^^^^ I entered that...just so folks who like to bicker know who disagreed with them.