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IT (And Other) Salaries On The Rise In The U.S.
pertinax18 writes "CNN Money is reporting that salaries for most college grads are on the rise once again. Especially interesting to collegiate (and other) /. readers may be the 4.1% increase in pay for CS grads, and 10.7% increases in pay for others in the field. From the article: 'If those numbers sound enticing, it's probably because computer science graduates are long overdue for a pay increase. "They haven't seen an increase since 2001 and this is the first year, in all four reports, that they showed an increase," Koncz says.' Are things finally starting to look up for us?"
Why is it Bush's fault when salaries go down, but a magical coincidence when they go up?
Show me places in the industry or people who have received raises. Not to sound bitter, but I know not a single person in my circle of friends and business associates who've said they're getting raises.
:(
It's more about cuts and firings lately
"It's not stealing if you don't get caught!"
Now President Bush is submitting stories to Slashdot!
Im went to ITT school for HTML intraweb programming and Im stil only get 5.45 per hour?!?
The numbers look great on a cursory glance, but they are missing one thing important: They don't list what percentage of graduates were able to find a job within x months of graduation.
So sure, maybe the ones that were hired are making more, but if they are only hiring a small percentage of grads, you'd expect them to make more, wouldn't you? (As they would be more qualified than the average grad)
-Ryan
AUWYHSTOT (Acronyms are Useless When You Have to Spell Them Out Too)
I wonder if this isn't a side effect of a lot of the outsourcing to India that's happening. If a lot of the lower paid jobs (tech support and the like) are outsourced, what's left behind are the higher paying jobs which results in a higer average.
Relax.
IT is still alive and will continue to be a career with prospects in the USA.
Not everything can/should be outsourced.
Good to hear as a CMU freshman, but with tuition here there damn well better be a good salary out the door.
Meanwhile the administrators are trying to get 17% and I don't mean retroactive or anything, just a big fat raise.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
It seems that demand is up for individuals with solid IT skills in the UK. I have noticed a distinct increase in the number of calls I'm receiving from head hunters in the last 4-6 months.
While jobs are on the decline.
- A
Given the title "IT (And Other) Salaries On The Rise In The U.S." but knowing the content to be talking about rising initial pay for grads entering the market...is there necessarily a direct correlation between the two?
I mean, it certainly seems reasonable to assume that the two are related...but...?
A year ago, getting an IT job was hard as hell. Countless resumes, postings and searchings EVENTUALLY netted me a DBA position.
In the last few months, I've started getting emails randomly from recruiters who've seen my resumes posted. I haven't been looking, haven't updated it. One of the opportunities struck me, so I took it. No problems. I've been offered more jobs in the past month - without looking for anything - than I could even get close to a year ago.
What does salary increase mean?
Salaries may be on the rise...but it doesn't do the new grad any good if he/she can't find a job.
I know of one person who moved from Texas (where he lived and graduated) to DC just because the odds were better that he'd get a job. Didn't work.
While there is certainly crossover, your typical IT employee is/was not a CS major. CS is programming and software engineering, IT is servers and networks, and yes, occasionally writing some code. Programmers' salaries rising doesn't mean shit to most of us IT employees.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
I already changed my major from CS to secondary education. I don't have to fear my job being sent off to another country in education. Granted I don't make as much money but my little experience with CS related jobs was well, not exactly rewarding. I decided I'd rather just code for fun and not have to worry about my job if I can even find one that will stay around for 30 years so I can retire this lifetime.
Kyle
http://www.unlogikal.net/
sucks for those history majors... -4.80% from last year
I think it's more interesting to see what fell than what rose. Computer engineering, mechanical/industrial engineering, and history. Any ideas why those would fall?
Although in this political climate, doesn't seem like much attention is being paid to history, as the same mistakes keep being repeated.:-P
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Low wage jobs have been outsourced from the U.S. therefore the remaining jobs in U.S. drive higher mean wages, even for college graduates.
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that 4.1% increase comes out to about 23 rupees
vodka, straight up, thank you!
I wonder how much of this is due to outsourcing. Get rid of a bunch of the lower-than-average wages from the equation and you will get a perceived increase in average, which could then be misconstrued as a good thing. For example... 30K 40K 50K 60K = average of 45K Now outsource the jobs of the 30K and 40K guys so they go work at McDs and you have... 50K 60K = average of 55K Oooh were all making 10K more. WRONG.
But I'm pretty sure it doesn't account for inflation in the increase, or if it's a real increase in buying power with the increase in pay.
Not a story about rising IT salaries! Heaven forbid the liberal IT loonies have to deal with evidence in their own backyard!
Say it isn't so!
The 4.1% increase is reflective of *recent* graduates only. The rest of us poor experienced scum suffer with a COLA raise if we're lucky!
Meanwhile CEO salaries are up 200%. Yeah, I'm really excited about my 2% pay increase now.
But what about employment rates?
Do you see this, people? This motivated young man with a registered copy of Dreamweaver is the future of our enterprise. He is a troll that you can all aspire to. Please think of him any time you are about to fuck up and do something worthless.
Meanwhile, computer science graduates make $49,036 a year, a gain of 4.1 percent.
Got to be an average- I've got my Bachelor's of Software Engineering, and I'm only making $42,000/year after 10 years of experience.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
So my choice for CS as my first major wasn't a horrible idea? Awesome...
Stop pimping IT. We need perception to be BAD... so students stop taking IT majors.
That's what will increase our salaries and our demand.
I reset my case.
Yay! I was just told yesterday that IBM is outsourcing my job and the jobs of everyone in my building to India by the end of the year. This is great!
Wouldn't a 4.1% raise be equal to a cost of living increase since the last raise was seen in 2001? Then it's not really a raise...
Many CS majors have it all wrong. College isn't about wasting 4-6 years studying, it's about doing something PRODUCTIVE during that time (co-op, internships, start your own business, develop a new 3-d game engine). Something to show that I have talent. Unfortunately darwinism is taking place and only the strongest are surviving right now. The weak are all complaining that it's Bush's fault that they have no experience and aren't willing to relocate to take on an entry-level job.
Only the strongest will survive.
Not that I'm complaining, mind you; in fact I'm the only one out of my friends with a steady job. Let's hear it for economic recovery!
2.) Do the numbers take inflation into account?
3.) Could this be showing up because jobs that would formerly be considered IT are now moving into a more general skill set? (Similar to #1.)
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Salary increas eh? Time to switch jobs to get an increase.... oh wait, all the jobs are going to india... so wait... the guys in india are making more? :-)
"Don't sweat the petty stuff and don't pet the sweaty stuff." -- by an Unknown Wise man.
I already changed my major from CS to secondary education. I don't have to fear my job being sent off to another country in education.
With Web Based Training and teleconferencing, I wonder if education will eventually be outsourced.
Ori, taking a break from writing WBT courseware.
-- Support a free market in the field of government
Why do you think the troll has Dreamweaver?
Are things finally starting to look up for us?"
Is it a good thing we got a 4% raise on the job we got laid off from?
Oh, and 4% PER YEAR, EVERY YEAR,would just about keep up with inflation. Then, maybe management would notice the 15% annual increase in housing costs...
Business isn't willing to pay for products, innovation and careers, so we get brands, mortgage commercials and layoffs.
Honestly, I don't understand why it's listed outside of liberal arts, except that perhaps the authors of the report wanted liberal arts to show a greater rise. Typically history majors, as I understand it, get history degrees as precursors to graduate degrees in areas like politics or as a liberal arts base for doing law or other fields. Frankly, I think not lumping with liberal arts is a bit suspect.
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If IT Jobs are really earning more money than there must be a few things going on. Firstly, The industry may be seeing increased profits, Secondly, There may be increased demand for IT Professionals. Thirdly, There may be a decreased supply of IT Professionals.
The salary paid to those working is not just something that is nice to have high. It is calculated from the state of the system. If the pay is bad then do something about it. Sometimes the only thing you can do is find a different job as there are too many workers in the industry.
Also, the industry can regulate this more if IT people want more money. Take the Medical Profession for example. They place a limit on the number of accepted students every year. If CS education did this as well, then the decreased supply (I don't think the demand is going anywhere) will force employers to pay the workers more money. On the reverse side, not as many people would have jobs. This is almost like the question on Socialism vs. Capitalism. If you want everyone to be working and be marginally content, then don't expect alot of money. Judging from this article, that is not what people want but infact the Capitalistic prespective in that they want more money.
Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what's right. --Isaac Asimov
It is important to keep improving and expanding your skillset. If you stand still you will become obsolete and make it easier to replace you with someone overseas. It also helps to watch the market and determine which skills you find useful.
.NET. And now I do all 3 plus more depending on the project. I also find the supporting technologies like XML, XHTML, CSS and other standardized technologies are great filler which make you valuable even when you are thrown onto a new platform with a new language. I expect XML to be a technology that everyone will build on and will remain important for a long time. Right now XML and XSLT is very useful in Java and .NET.
In a matter of 5 years I have worked with Perl, Java and now
Make sure you maintain useful skills and make sure people know you are an expert. It will help you raise your salary. It has helped mine.
Brennan Stehling - http://brennan.offwhite.net/blog/
Maybe slightly off-topic, but why are there no Electrical Engineering numbers on the list?
Has the BSEE degree been absorbed by BSCS, BSME, and BSIE, while I've been in the basement?
Where is Maths on the list?
If those numbers sound enticing, it's probably because computer science graduates are long overdue for a pay increase.
Yea, right.
With the result of fewer people actually working. If they'd factor in all the people now earning $0 or minimum wage with their CS degree, it would make more sense.
Yep, theory makes sense and fits the facts.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
I'm from Central PA. Grad. in '96 with a degree in CS and IT. Worked for a local county until politics reared it's ugly head. I'm making $37,000 which isn't alot. However my company sends me on a cruise to the caymen islands every year. I was out of work for over 6 months, it's damn hard to find a job in PA, let alot a Technology Job.
Perhaps this is the real reason.
A Call For A New Slashdot Moderation Level!
There is an amazing number of pro-Bush, pro-Republican trolls on this slashdot list. I find that surprising and interesting. Are you a 'right-leaning' supporter from a libertarian bent? This would make sense to me. What are you general views on the pressing economic issues? What do you think about how the DOJ, under Bush's watch, has handled the Microsoft case? Do you thinks Bush's admin has anything to do with, and are you troubled by the 'homeland security' procedures implemented by the FBI and airports? Not a troll here - there just seems to be some inconsistencies between the views expressed by a 'right-leaning' political party and those often read on /.
I got laid off from Sabre late last year after 3 years as a Senior Developer. Sabre froze salaries, stopped raises and bonuses after they aquired the company I worked for. There were programmers at Sabre making less than I was that were as or more experienced than me and they hadn't had raises in even longer.
:D
Since June of this year, I've been able to dictate my price. Recruiter calls up looking for experienced Enterprise Web Developer? $45/hour minimum. Period. End of story. No I won't take less, there's someone on the other line offering $50/hour.
Thanks for laying me off Sabre.
neo-con ? is that some soft of keanu-reeves-in-the-matrix convention ?
Sorry, but this is not as good a bit of news as it looks...
Unemployment in the IT sector is up (due to both outsourcing AND the struggling economy), so who cares if the people with jobs are getting a bit more money?
Furthermore, this article is talking specifically about fresh out of college newhires - something the person who posted this seems to avoid clarifying altogether.
Guess what? They're getting these jobs and their first increase since 2001 (CS graduates) because the older folks who were making $60k and are now unemployed are gone - a net savings of $11k.
Bottom line: It's still brutally difficult to find a decent computer science / IT job right now, and the people in them aren't getting huge raises. It's also important to note that there's complaints heard 'round the country from IT and CS folks about the fact that they're working ridiculous numbers of hours.
The insane high salaries of the tech boom, however unjustified they seemed at the time, were actually justifiable because these fresh out of college kids were often dumping 60-80 hours per week into their job. (Note that I agree that the rest of the spending during the tech boom, however, was just as stupid as everyone says it was).
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the argument against the Bush administration is that IT salaries would have risen SOONER and more dramatically if it were not for the poor economic policy of the Bush administration?
Should we judge Bush's economic record based on the four years he spent in office, or the last two months of his presidency before the election?
Irritable, left-wing and possibly humorous bumper stickers and t-shirts
I find the list in the article incomplete. Where is Physics?
I would assume Physics would be quite high. It's not an easy subject and there aren't very many of us. The demand, however, is there and so the pay should be good.
Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what's right. --Isaac Asimov
If your a graduate. But good luck getting a raise if you are a long term employee. Where I work they are hiring grads on starting wages close to what they were nine years ago.
They are only recently giving them a slight raise because they realise how crap the wages they are giving them, and a number of them have left to much better pay and what doesn't require having to take a second job to live.
But it is a farce anyway. We have Grads being advertised as the next big thing and being put in areas they simply do not have the experience in.
Anyone complains, they don't care they would much prefer the longer term employees leave as they can get 2-3 grads for the price.
Four years of start up (12 hour days + weekends) and no review/adjustment earned me a 3.2% "merit increase" recently.
He eats babies, simple as that.
Seriously though, it's probably more like... Singh: Hey boss, look, IT salaries are on the rise in the US. May I have a raise? PHB: Sure. Now you make 8 rupee a month! Singh: Yay! Now I can afford the luxury of a moped to drive my entire family on.
MCSE's finally get tired of "$60k a year" salary promises and move on to the new get rich quick career........Real Estate.
-Randy
the ignorance and bitterness of DUMB american programmers is amazing!
As a partner in a small tech consulting business, I can state without reservation, "New CS Graduates don't have a clue what they're worth." The survey is almost certainly taken from a handful of large, national employers with fixed entry-level employement packages.
/. articles they read over the last 5 years, you either end up with new grads with no experience, who think they're the second coming, or experienced folks who had a bad co-op or were laid off rapidly from their first job, who walk in demoralized, and are willing to work for peanuts.
The truth is that most CS graduates go into smaller businesses. And when they walk in my front door, they have no clue what they should be making. I've had B-students who held a student job doing data entry for their University walk in the door and tell me they're "willing" to work for $75,000 a year, to be a code monkey after graduation. I've also had graduate students with quite a bit of experience walk in and tell me they're expecting $36-40k.
Depending on how many
As far as I'm concerned, the question of "What's a Degree Worth" is bunk. 90% of a new grad's worth has little to do with their academic program, and everything to do with their attitude, their experiences, and their fitness for the job. There's MIT grads that I wouldn't hire if they were the last non-Indian programmers on the planet.
A degree is worth nothing. The grad's attiude and ability to produce is what sets their salary. Lacking that, they're either unemployed 6 months later, or getting bonuses and raises because the company wants to encourage loyalty and keep them around for a long time. The diploma on your wall has very little to do with that.
Notice: Your mouse has been moved. Windows will now restart so this change can take effect.
I think people need to take time to see what's going on out there! Anything better than 4% is GREAT! Sure, we'd all like to make more money, but if you are paid a competitive wage, and get nearly a 7% raise per year (these days), you should be extremely happy!
I'm a chemical engineer with a CS minor... I wonder how that adds up for me...
Well, you're right about the libertarian bent. My views on Bush administration accomplishments non-withstanding, it seems that people at /. tend to blame Bush for things he has very little control over, such as job outsourcing.
Here's the problem:
These figures measure gross salaries. If a lot of folks in Utah loose jobs, but the number of folks working in California or New York remains steady, then it is a reasonable expectation that salaries would increase. That doesn't mean that the _disposable income_ of those working has increased-because the cost of living in New York and California is quite a bit higher than Utah.
Disposable income has been declining in the US for 30 years now.
Now how do we go about profitting from this. I like my job and I don't want to go to another company, but in my company raises are done at performance review time. between 0-5% based on your review. I need about 25% to be on par with the rest of the world, including my coworker. I'm getting the shaft here it's very clear - but can anyone give me some good advice on how to handle it?
Don't Tread on Me
unlike the article claimed. The list claimed elementary ed was at the bottom of the list, but it ignores the fact that you work less than half the days of the year. No state requires a teacher to teach more than 180 days each year. That's less than half the number of days a year I worked last year! So, per hour teachers are very highly paid. They make nearly four times as much as I do w/ an EE degree from Ga Tech, and they still whine about it.
I've actually gotten calls from headhunters again. The jobs are crap, but at least they are starting to call. But these calls have also given me a clue about what the cause is, and this can influence the (possibly temporary) rise in pay levels.
That cause is the current H-1B cap.
On October 1, 2003, the limit on the number of new H-1B visas that can be issued each year fell back to 65,000 after Congress declined to renew the 3 year raise on that limit. By January 2004, the fiscal year quota had been met. That suggests that American businesses would have, if they could have, hired as many as 260,000 foreign nationals to fill jobs they don't want to hire Americans for. But with the low cap, they are now forced to do just that: hire Americans.
The coming danger is that the Bush Administration, and the dominant party in Congress, want to raise the cap again, presumably so they and their other fat cat friends can enjoy the riches of investing in businesses that grow by selling out American to cheap foreign labor. When this happens, watch for the gains made by IT workers to evaporate.
Free Trade? That's what they like to call it. Free maybe. Fair and level, certainly not. When the monetary exchange rate is so distorted as it is, obviously intended to favor rich Americans, someone making what would be the poverty line in the US can live quite well in India. They wouldn't have a big palace or anything like that, but they could have a nice (well air conditioned ... that's needed in India) 2 to 4 bedroom modern apartment in a clean neighborhood in a major Indian city like Mumbai or Bangalore. So of course they can work for less, but it isn't less to them, it's more.
The blame lies not with Indians, though (they are merely doing better for themselves as anyone would want to do), but with the world bankers and the American politicians (Republicans as well as Democrats who have some of the most clueless politicians around) intent on screwing the lower 99% to make themselves and their friend richer.
By the way, one of the jobs I got a call about was a contract gig for Accenture, a formerly American company that decided it didn't want to pay taxes anymore and moved their company to the Bahamas. But the US government still grants them many lucrative contracts, which they would like to fulfill with cheaper non-American labor as soon as Bush gets that cap raised.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
No one sent me the memo!!
i cant seem to come up with a sig.
IT salaries have seen a big boom in India in the last 2 years !!. The intended joke just doesn't work.
Between 2001 and 2003 the Rupee was around 49/dollar. Today it's around 46/dollar. That small difference accounts for 6% inflation in the price of software. In addition the voracious demand for the world's best engineers in India drove up prices even further. Finally the election of more socialist leaders in 2004 shifted the emphasis from building technological dominance to supporting rural communities. India could no longer starve its people to sustain technological superiority.
Unfortunately this is a very small change from 2003. We're talking about 1% changes in salaries.
He actually has a lot of control over the trend towards outsourcing jobs. He also has a lot of control over minimum wage, overtime, required benefits, the general economy, inflation, and a lot of other things that influence how much we get paid.
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CNN or my paycheck?
My paycheck still clocks in at the same rate as it did three years ago.
Time to start buying Grecian formula, I guess...
IANAL, but I've seen actors play them on TV
It's common knowledge that to be successful in any IT undertaking requires a registered copy of Dreamweaver. I see that you aren't quite operating at the level we're looking for.
Pack your bags son, you're fired!
It's nice to see chemical engineers getting the props we deserve. I'm a grad student, but I talk to the undergrads about it. Even though the average starting salary is high, the undergrads are having a harder time finding good jobs. There are fewer jobs out there, but those that are out there are fairly high paying. This is no where where we were in the late 90's.
-- john
He would only have control over all those things in case U.S. reverted to a semi-socialistic country a la most EU contries, or a totalitarian regime, like Nazi Germany.
Yay! Now all I have to do is graduate!
~*~ ~*~ ~*~
yes, girls read /. too...
Computer Science salary figures sponsored by the ITAA (for those unfamiliar, staunch advocates of dumbing down computer science curricula, H-1B's, outsourcing, and generally assuring a supply of cheap nerd labor).
One CPU cycle wasted on digital restrictions management is ONE TOO MANY.
Salary increase is when you get laid off and come back as a contractor for a few bucks more after being out of work from said company for several months.
You only get job offers when you're already employed.
No matter how much stuff gets shipped overseas, there exists the need for people here to plan and implement everything.
My colleagues and I received an outsourcing contract from the United States from a company called IBM.
We received a 10% raise for our quality of work boosting contract rate from $6.00 to $6.60 hour.
Our country China states that if we continue our company growth, we can keep 20% of our earnings.
I am not sure how these numbers will look after employment rates, out-sourcing etc. are taken into consideration but I can say this, the situation does seem to be getting a little better. I joined my present company when the industry was going into free-fall. For the first two years, my work was not even appraised because there was no room for even token pay hikes, what with the company being in the red and all. Then almost after 3 years, a few months ago, I was given a pay increase.
Another sign of things being on the mend - last week I got a call from a recruiter and I thought the species were near extinction!
My 0.02.
-- Off to build a bridge between the twin peaks of Mt. Kilimanjaro.
Or if he were the head of state and leader of the party that controlled both houses. Oh, wait.
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I believe this whenever I get hired for anything even close. I graduated last year and have been looking ever since. I've seen people who don't believe they're nearly as smart/good as I am (their words not mine) get hired and I continue to be under-employed.
If anyone would like to prove me wrong, you can get $500 for doing so (yep, it's legit, you can mess with my resume (no lying) and you do get paid).
-- Political fascism requires a Fuhrer.
Come work here. $9.25 unloading trucks. 8 Hrs a day.
Since I started at my first post-college job in September 2002, I've gotten about $13,000 in raises.
By the way, I work for the government as a computer engineer. Your tax dollars at work! I guess this is the only sector that doesn't rise and fall with the economy...spend spend spend...
"If at first you don't succeed, lower your standards."
This is precisely why you need to choose to be computer science majors. This year's employment prospects are up!! So in six years, they will definitely be up!! The industry is cyclicle and we are in a permanent up cycle again!!
Are things finally starting to look up for us?
Hmm. We're talking out about an upswing in wages for IT workers, right? Obviously, they didn't consider the higher education market, where I just get a cost of living increase every year.
I'm not complaining, though. The benefits are significantly better than any of my previous jobs. For instance, I get five weeks of paid vacation. Furthermore, the university where I am employed is the most relaxed environment I have ever worked in.
My point is, it's not all about the money. I took a noticeable pay cut to come here. The benefits are great, the environment is relaxing, my stress level is significantly lower than previous jobs, and I actually look forward to coming to work every day. I'll take that over more money any day.
SiO2
We've been looking for a perl programmer for 5 months in New England, and there definately isn't a glut. (we're looking for someone with a bit more than 'I wrote a .cgi at school, once') After we filter out the people that want an H1B visa, we're left with a group that claim to be perl 'experts'. Honestly we ask each one of them to rate themselves out of 10 on perl, and 90% say 9 or 10/10.
/.+ and/ /.+?/. I've only had one candidate know the difference between 'my' and 'local'....
HR then asks them the screening question. "I want to assign an anonymous array to a variable $x. The line starts 'my $x =', complete the line."
Most start having phone problems there and then.
For bonus points a few get asked what is the difference between
I could go on but it just gets depressing.
For the reference of all us geeks here:
What were the sites that netted you the feedback. For much of my online resumes last time I posted them, I got a much more noticable increase in spam (especially "quick diploma", "pay us to find you a job" or "buy this book on making a better resume") than hits from actual employers...
... and yet I know many very capable CS majors who still haven't gotten jobs that graduated with me last spring. As a computer engineer it looks like my major has been squeeked out as the highest paid. (although quite different from 2000 when I started college)
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Sudan called; their prayers are with you.
>> the ignorance and bitterness of DUMB american
>> programmers is amazing!
Yeah, because when they moved here from India, we were told they were SMART.
I just got a healthy raise. Granted I had to change jobs to get it, but that does not disprove the article. In fact it proves that salaries are up and there are more jobs available.
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The use of financial derivatives, risk management and hedge trading involves maths that doesn't look all that far from advanced thermodynamics. Physicists are numerate enough in a practical way that they are usually in demand by the banks.
See my journal, I write things there
It's a vicious cycle.
I'm in the hole of the broadband donut.
Presidents don't create or destroy jobs. They don't raise or lower wages. At best, what they can do is create circumstances that make it possible or impossible for CORPORATIONS to do these things.
.coms were created, hiring way too many people for jobs that the market simply wasn't prepared to sustain for the long term.
You know what caused the tech market crash? Clinton? Bush? No... YOU did! By "you" I mean every American who pissed their savings away by investing WAY too much money in an empire that (at the time) had almost nothing to offer in terms of REAL product. As a result of all the venture capital flying around, too many
The result? Exactly what SHOULD happen. Companies collapse, people lose their jobs (unfortunately), and the economy (not the president), along with the basic rules of supply and demand, slowly corrects our mistakes.
But God demonstrates his love for us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us - (Romans 5:8)
" Stop pimping IT. We need perception to be BAD... so students stop taking IT majors.
That's what will increase our salaries and our demand."
STOP PIMPING WALMART! WE NEED PERCEPTION TO BE BAD... so 'others' STOP TAKING (mine mine all mine) BOTTOM-OF-THE-BARREL JOBS. THAT'LL INCREASE OUR SALARIES AND OUR DEMAND!
Sounds stupid doesn't it? Well so does your selfish "entitlement" attitude.
Your point being? The American economy has been enjoying a hands-off attitude by the government for a very long time, why should Bush's stance change all of a sudden?
From TFA:
Psychology majors enjoyed a 2 percent increase with entry-level salaries averaging $28,230.
Is this some strange useage of the word "enjoyed" with which I was not previously familiar?
It must be real nice to get a pay raise. Where I work, we've had basically zero raises since 2001, and I've personally had two different pay cuts this year (not performance related). As a result I'm making over 10% less than I was last year. There is basically zero chance for advancement, and we can't hire anyone to replace anyone that leaves. This is in a company making BILLIONS in PROFITS!
At least I still have a job, and am able to support my family.
When I moved back to England in 2000, I negotiated with my company for a US-level salary, and when I arrived, found that most of my colleagues were paid quite a lot less than me. Is it still the case that European salaries are significantly lower than US salaries, regardless of the economic condition over the last few years?
a ff1-194df49add e b24-b577b68ef0 c 2fd-b0904ad927
BTW, some invites for anybody who cares....
http://gmail.google.com/gmail/a-f70e1240a6-58bc0f
http://gmail.google.com/gmail/a-f70e1240a6-376a4f
http://gmail.google.com/gmail/a-f70e1240a6-e9139e
Physics fell off the bottom of the list.
Assuming we're talking Bachelor's degrees, ISTR that a Physics BS is worth just slightly more than two ply toilet paper.
OK, so maybe my tinfoil hat is wrapped on a little bit too tightly...
But isn't it strange to put this story side by side with CNET's interview of Professor James Foley's warning about too few people going into computer science related studies.
Of course, the professor has a vested interest in increasing the number of CS students and also in getting more research funding for CS projects - which is to be expected given where his bread is buttered.
He does make good points about the long term consequences of turning out fewer CS grads per capita than other countries, and about how younger researchers deserve a chance to do independent research without laboring as indentured post-docs under the wing of less creative mentors.
But trying to encourage more students to go into CS and IT right now is not necessarily as good a plan as trying to improve the education level of future CS students that are only 0-10 years old right now.
"Provided by the management for your protection."
He accidentally astroturfed whitehouse.org :p
My division in Sun (probably all of Sun) hasn't seen a pay raise since 2001. My manager tells me I'm slated for a 3-4% hike this quarter.
That doesn't mean everyone at Sun is making what they made in 2001, for instance I've changed jobs 3 times and while each was a lateral move, each got a definite raise (in 2001 I was making 80% what I make now), it only means those people in the same job as 2001 are finally getting some increase.
Of course at the same time as all of this I've witnessed a ton of layoffs. If you averaged in the layoffs Sun is obviously paying FAR less salary even with the increases.
Inflation is pretty tame these days excepting gas prices and there are a number of reasons behind those prices, and the situation in Iraq is NOT one of them.
I heard Kerry say if he were president, he would take a tough-guy stance with OPEC and pressure them to release more oil.
Good luck with that plan.
OK, let me give you a clue here:
You have 10 people. 3 make $500 a week, 4 make $1000 a week, and 3 make $2000 a week.
Now, here's where it gets tricky (apparently). What happens to the average salary paid to the remaning 8 people if 2 of the people making $500 a week leave?
That's little consolation for the unemployed.
FYI, Bush said the same exact thing in 2000. He blamed Clinton for not trying to stongarm OPEC into lowering prices.
I dunno about that.....
I just graduated with a BS of Business Administration from the University of North Carolina. I've got a pretty decent entry level job with IBM Global Services, and also had an offer from Accenture. IBM is literally hiring THOUSANDS of college grads, and I know Accenture was picking up people as quickly as they could.
I can't speak for the whole industry, but my experience coming out was pretty positive.
Add to that the influx of foreign workers and you're looking at a very bleak picture for the people who built the computer industry when everyone else was just looking at how they could rip off a piece of the pie.
Seastead this.
Isn't that a sikh rather than typical hindi name? You should have used one like:
Bavhagamanuptraveninah
Yay, it's time for Slashbots to become racist little bigots! It's O.K though, because they're not actually black!
Most tragic of the ranks of the lowest paying disciplines being "Elementary Education".
There's a certain ugly self-consistency of a society that devalues elementary educators and psychologists, the latter help people become aware and correct of their dysfunctional views of the world they acquired in childhood.
"Provided by the management for your protection."
I actually just got a whopper of a salary increase today, because I'm in one of the few IT type areas that's doing well, and has been despite any recession.
Government contracting.
It can't be outsourced, and all this out of control spending from the government keeps us employed. Pay has been steadily increasing for the last 4 years here.
Now, compare that to the glut of entry level jobs (which pay less), that have been outsourced. Those lower paying jobs have gone overseas.
You have to wonder if the combination of the the two factors has contributed to an overall raise in salary.
~EEE~
1. Eliminate four positions, increase one person's salary by 20% Give them four times more work. Solicit young college grads instead of older people who don't know they're getting shafted.
2. Send out a press release showing the economy is doing great because salaries are going up.
3. Profit
This kind of jokes are just plain rude -- not funny!
Control in the Senate really requires 60 votes, which is required in break a filibuster. Neither party has had that number in quite a few years. Learn how the process really works before you go making stupid statements. Oh wait, this is /. where stupidity is held in high regard.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I know this is a place with a large discrepancy in personal views but it seems one of the prevailing views is that technology and progress will make some jobs and careers irrelevant and people must adapt and change with the times. A good example of this is any discussion that relates to digital music (or any media) and intellectual property in the digital age.
Another prevailing view is that because the market is no longer willing to pay six figures for a HTML jockey who once flipped through "C++ in 21 days", then the market is shot to hell. What happened to adapting and changing with the times? I can't help but think that a lot of the same people who lambaste the entertainment industry for remaining stagnant and expecting to make money are doing the same thing themselves. If your skillset is no longer needed at the value you think it is worth, get a new stinking skillset. Find out what jobs are paying well and in demand and move to those markets.
I know plenty of quite intelligent people who, during their high school and/or college years taught themselves a LOT about computers, programming, etc. but once they get a cushy job they are suddenly incapable of learning anything new or branching out into different fields. Nobody said everyone was guaranteed a job doing whatever they wanted making whatever they wanted.
Nonsense. You're being an absolute troll. What I am saying, and I thought even slashdot wouldn't be too obtuse to understand, is that the President has more power over how the country is run than anyone. His policies are just about our only chance to change the course of our economy. Denying he has any power, or saying his policies are irrelevant to the economy, is stupid.
My Photography - http://ian-x.com
The Deathlings (comic) - http://thedeathlings.com
The only reason the GNP is rising in the US is that there is _massive_ immigration going on. Disposable income of working families and stuff like labor force participation rates are going down-but nobody wants to talk about that.
If someone hits you in the face repeatedly every day that you meet them, and then one day they decide to hit you in the gut or stomp on your feet, is it really an improvement?
[o]_O
But my salary has doubled in the last year, in the same field. (IT implementations)
You better watch out, there may be dogs about . .
Why is it Bush's fault when salaries go down, but a magical coincidence when they go up?
For the same reason that when nice things happen, the Bush campaign proclaims that their plans are working, but when bad things happen, it's because we're just in tough times.
Yes, people who don't like Bush see more reasons to dislike Bush in the information they encounter. But this isn't unique to his critics, nor make him a particularly uniquely beleagured president.
Tweet, tweet.
Hindu, not Hindi. Hindu == religion. Hindi == India's national language. Also, the last name Singh doesn't always imply a Sikh person.
Besides, there a lot of Sikh software engineers in India, so dont understant your point. If any.
So shall I tell this to my boss, whom is giving me a performance appraisal soon? Oh wait I surf slashdot probably more than I work....crud....
...in bed
Who said I had a point?
Also, unless all indian names have religious implications, isn't hindi the appropriate term? I mean, I have an english/american name, not a christian one...
HOLD ON THERE! Don't let something like economics get in the way of someone's pet theories. Next thing you know, you'll be wanting journalists to have proof for their stories before they're published! (couldn't resist ;>)
The US Government is setup with a balance of power, the President PROPOSES policies via his budget, but Congress makes the LAWS. Sometimes the President gets what he wants, sometimes he doesn't. The true power is in Congress[just read some of the papers fo the Founding Fathers], the Senate Majority Leader is at least as powerful on DOMESTIC issues as the President, with the President coming out ahead on Foreign policy matters. If the President and Senate can work together then we can have a great system. When they are at each others throats nothing gets done.
Regardless, I'd think Bush doesn't deserve my vote for leading us to war on a lie, where U.S. soldiers continue to die, without either a reasonable entry OR exit strategy.
Call me crazy, but the preemptive war based on faulty evidence that cost (and continues to cost) us billions, lowers our reputation in the world theater, and potentially spawns more terrorists than prior (not to mention seriously destabilizing an already shaky region of the world) is more important than a few stinking jobs or an extra $1000 a year in my savings account.
But then again, I'm not a Republican and money ain't my God.
Mod -1 Off Topic, or -1 Troll, I don't care.
It's just ridiculous for the economy to even remotely be considered an issue in this election.
You better watch out, there may be dogs about . .
It should be noted that the H-1b quota was reduced in fall of 2003(back to 65,000/year). Now last year congress expanded the L-1 program--but there were clauses in that expansion that made it difficult for companies to take advantage of that program until after the election. L-1 employees need to work for a company for something like a year before the company and use them for work in the US. So this effect-to the extent it is real(i.e. it may just be movement of jobs into high priced areas), may well be temporary.
Are things finally starting to look up for us?
No. CNN is a craven mouthpiece of the Bush administration. We are all going to die of slow and horrible starvation and our children will be sold into slavery. Anyone who tells you otherwise is a willing pawn of the right wing cabal.
Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
Are you in the telecomm industry? If so, you would have heard of the so-called "CLEC"s (Competive Local Exchange Carriers) that were to compete with the big telecom boys. As soon as Bush was elected, they went out of business... because the smart money knew that Bush would support the incumbent big firms against them... just like he sabotaged the Microsoft antitrust trial. As went the CLECs, so went the telecomm infrastructure startups who were building innovative equipment that the CLECs would have bought, but that the ILECs have no interest in buying, because they have a monopoly anyway.
It is no accident that the bust coincided with Bush's election. Without Bush, there still would have been a dot-com bust, but other sectors would not have been as badly affected.
It is also no accident that oil prices, after stagnating for pretty much the entire Clinton years, started skyrocketing after Bush's election. It is his priority to keep gas prices high. For every cent in gas price hikes, the Oil industry makes millions of dollars. And guess which industry forms Bush's personal financial base.
Magnus.
Then why isn't it the president's fault? If he can create circumstances the encourage growth, that discourage outsourcing, isn't it his fault if he doesn't? I'll agree the tech economy was overinflated, but he doesn't seem to be too concerned with stopping the hemorrhaging of jobs overseas. "But we've had the biggest job growth in the last years," say the concervatives. Right, and a quick look at the newspaper tells me they aren't the same quality of jobs.
Sucks for us I guess. As a recent college graduate, I guess it's our fault that we can't get decent jobs (decent being enough to raise a family with health insurance). It doesn't help that I didn't qualify for unemployment insurance when I had rent to pay for an a stomach of my own to fill. Meanwhile, I see people pay for $300 worth of groceries with food stamps and drive away in their new Honda SUV. I guess I should have shit out a kid or something....
(For the record, I have a decent job now and I'm voting for Bush because I think he's the "least of the evils", however, this wasn't the case when I graduated 3 years ago.)
Here government tries to show an improvement in industrial jobs by proposing the reclassification of McDonalds employees to industrial workers. http://usliberals.about.com/b/a/067965.htm :)
What a fucking joke! And whos salary has gone up? Bah I know the only way to get a raise in Engineering is to leave
---
My sig was stolen - the insurance company replaced it with this one.
And in other news, ThinkGeek is receiving more orders than ever!
IANAE, (Im not an economist) but it seems rational to me.
That nearly 2 years of IT experience with a cs major, i'm well under the starting average salary. Sh*z, where do they get these results from and are these people offering jobs?
It takes a vast amount of stupidity to blame Clinton for the great years in the 90's and Bush for the slow years opening the new decade. I hate to burst bubbles (haha, pun) but the reason why the Clinton years were so great was because the Internet came into full force on his watch. He had absolutely nothing to do with it. At the very best you can credit him for not taking on protectionist policies that might have thrown water on the fire. Other then staying pretty much out of the way, Clinton just so happened to be president during the world's most significant technological boom to date. If you worked in industry in the 80's and still work in it now, you know the impact e-mail and personal computers has made, and it isn't a little one.
Bush happened to catch the tail end of the boom. More specifically, he caught the boom that a bursting tech bubble makes. The technology bubble burst, and neither Clinton nor Bush had anything to do with it. Worst still, Bush then got to be on watch as 9/11 happened. Unless you believe Bush had the ability to stop it (and that takes some pretty creative hindsight argue), he wasn't responsible for subsequent crash that resulted from both 9/11 and the burst bubble. Giving him credit or blame for what happened is down right stupid.
If another terrorist attack occurs and it has a financial impact, say terrorist blow up Wall Street or nuke or a US city, then you would be completely justified in pointing the figure squarely at Bush and the US congress for ruining the economy.
The president of the US controls only two (arguably three) things when it comes to the economy. The first is that a US president needs to not go overboard with protectionism. I am not saying they can't use a little of it now and then against other nations doing the same, but so long as they keep their protectionist impulses in check, they are doing close to all they can. Second, a US president needs to keep control of large macroscopic problems. In other words, the president needs to keep good trade relations up with all nations that matter and keep other nations/entities from blowing up things in the US. Arguably the third piece is that the president needs to keep debt in check. I say arguably because economists have recently begun to question how important the debt figures really are. Some are arguing that government debt doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things for a nation like the US.
Bush's score is about as good as any other president's score. In other words, he hasn't done anything blatantly stupid to the economy and has kept trade relations solid. From a purely economic standpoint, the only thing Bush has done that is arguably bad is his anti-terrorism policies. It could be argued that he has increased the likelihood of a finically crippling terrorist attack.
I am not saying Bush is the cat's meow, but I am saying that giving Bush credit for a poor economy and Clinton credit for a good economy is utterly stupid. If the two had switch presidencies the economic world be about the same. Bush would have had an economic boom and Clinton would have had a recession. There might have been a difference in the intensity of these cycles, but nothing more.
Sure seems like what has traditionally been called a "cost of living" raise. 10.7% in other industries, on the other hand, sounds pretty good. But 4.1 is by no means anything to jump up and down about.
I fairly lurch with sympathy every time I read an account like yours. Everyone deserves to work fruitfully, but some people just aren't "lucky" in the way that other (sometimes less proficient) people are.
So, here's my $0.02 on your approach and how to change your luck. Note up front that your problems are most like all about what you AREN'T saying.
First of all, I like the $500 idea. FWIW - It's kind of cool and shows some spunk. But, asking people to go ahead and tailor YOUR resume to THEIR needs isn't appropriate. You'll want to assert yourself more strongly than that. Keep reading for why..
Your requirement that the new position NOT be in Delaware seems to indicate that you would be willing to relocate to somewhere else in the country. That's fine. But, it sends the implied message that you don't really care where you land. And that implies that you aren't necessarily going to be dedicated to remaining in that area (and, by extension, that job). All of that put together screams "train me for free and give me valuable experience so I can go work for someone else as soon as humanly possible". Keep in mind that I'm interpreting this from the perspective of an employer.
Secondly, your resume is asking for a development position OR a system administrator. I understand your desire to be flexible. You probably just want to go with the flow, be agreeable, and land your first job. That's well and fine, but it doesn't get you noticed by an employer.
To make what could be a much lengthier post shorter, I would suggest that you develop a more specific vision of what you want out of your first job. Decide on one area in which you would like to live (metro areas are preferred for fresh graduates). Decide on a more specific professional specialization for your career. Then once you've decided all of that that, you'll be able to market yourself in a much more focused manner. You'll be able to say to an employer "Hey you want X right? I want to be doing that. Let me do it for you and show you how good I am at it. And hey look, I'm not too expensive either. It'll be good for both of us."
The bottom line here is that good employers understand that employees are not just interchangeable cogs. You have to show them how you will fit their specific needs. You have to show them how they'll be able to hand that piece of their organization to you and never have to worry about it again because you're driven, you're on target to be the best, and because you love doing it.
And that, in my opinion, is the difference between a career and just another job. Which one do you really want anyway?
Please mod this post only if you think others should/n't read this. I have enough ego^H^H^Hkarma. Thanks!
I like to add 9/11 didn't help matters either. When you have 3,000 dead and 20,000 at least temporarily displaced from work in the biggest financial district of the country, screwy things will happen...
Though I agree with the second and third paragraphs, Presidents do create and destroy jobs. About 10% of our population is employed by local, state, and federal government. Policies created at the federal level directly effect the number of jobs available in various fields at all levels of government. I am an ecologist; Bush's loosening of environmental laws have made the job market in my field tight. Due to the policies of war, my physicist friend has a range of jobs to choose from (check out 'Jobs in Demand' at http://www.usajobs.opm.gov/)
When they stop taking credit for a good economy, I'll stop blaming them for a bad economy.
it has always and will always be. Who you know gets you the job, what you know keeps that job. A college degree only gets you an interview with some HR drone in fortune 500 companies.
Probably for the same reason why Bush is 'getting' credit for shooting terroists in afghanistan, when Clinton spent the last eight years building up the nation's military capablility to deal with terrorists, despite the fact that Bush's staff blew off all of Clinton's warnings in 2000.
Life is is pretty complex, and you can't really really pin down who's fault the economy is, unless they do something pretty bad to screw it up.
That being said, the Economic downturn wasn't Bush's fault. Ignoring the economy to waste billions on Iraq is his fault. He gave irresponsable tax cuts to the rich. He has turned a balanced budget into a massive deficit.
Proper credit where credit is due...
HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!
Care to substantiate that? I live in CA, and most of the dot bombs that went out of business were here. Most of the ones that weren't are in the Boston or NYC areas - both very high cost of living areas. Si valley was hit pretty hard. I've seen nothing to say that the majority of the jobs lost were in the heartland, and those created on the edges. If anything, the companies in the heartland tend to be more stable, and weren't as active in the bubble/collapse. I don't have numbers either, but it seems more logical to me that the opposite effect would take place compared to that you suggest.
Or it's possible that salaries actually are just up overall.
-Looking for a job as a materials chemist or multivariat
I'm guessing from your e-mail address that you have the standard "personal, then optional middle, then family" name structure most Americans do.
Even if yours wasn't "John," your first name is historically known as your Christian name, while your last name is sometimes known as a "surname."
Those who complain about affect & effect on
Software Engineering is the study of creating or the creation of computer programs.
In soviet russia, You ask not what country do for you, but what you do for country!
Oh wait...
So...those of us who have been in IT for years can look forward to higher paid college grads as co-workers? hehe Remember when the old guys despised us for this? Guess what! We're the old guys! DOH!
A lot of the well-paid biotech people are Chemical Engineers. Since they get their own category, it drops the net biotech average. For something-bio-whatever people to make "good money," they are more likely to need an advanced degree than ChemE majors like me, otherwise they end up starting off as lab techs.
My company pays its biotech-oriented ChemEs pretty well, though not as much as Genzyme/Genentech/Biogen/Amgen/Lonza/etc.
The current mess that we are in is precisely due to a lack of understanding of history by the US voters.
mhack
Building a better ribosome since 1997
I'm not trying to be an a-hole.. but can you show me numbers?
A total spent on the war so far... a total of the money we're getting from the war... totals on the tax cuts given only to the rich and what they were paying before...
and do tell what he should have done instead of "Ignoring the economy to waste billions on Iraq..."
Get paid to code OSS
An average of $49K for a CS graduate. Wow!
I think for us brits it translates to about $35K.
And you have lower taxes, think yourselves lucky.
1) We will pull out of Iraq after the elections
2) Outsourcing is helping the economy
3) Manufacturing jobs are coming back
4) healthcare is more affordable than ever on an inflation adjusted basis
5) Salaries are increasing
Once Bush wins, then the press focuses on the truth again and we know gradually that all of the above are false and we were misled again.
Then i can finnaly get a job. 'We dont need programmers, we got consultants' god i hate them
But I had to ask for it.
10% with a promotion
They don't want me to leave yet...
What difference does the salaries make if you CAN'T EVEN GET A JOB?!?
Knowing you would've made more money if you could even get hired doesn't put food on the table.
And of course salaries can go up if there are less people to employ. A given amount of money divided less ways is more per person.
But it doesn't matter how big the pieces of the pie are if you aren't even allowed at the table.
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
Between 2000-2003, employees annual premiums for family coverage increased 48.9%. There's a lovely graph here of what this looks like.
This year, in 2004, it went down. Just kidding, it went up another 11%.
Individual health care coverage is $3,695 per year on average. $9,950 for family coverage.
Over the last three years, family premiums have increased by more than $3,512 and prescription drug prices have grown four times faster than inflation.
For a good solution, see here.
Enjoy your "tax cut"!
that is not entirely true. Good example is that FDR created jobs during the Greate Depression by hiring (Job Corp any one?). Likewise Both Reagan and W. created jobs in minor recession by giving tax cuts, then doing massive buying from the private world (and doing even larger deficits than FDRs).
Likewise, Presidents can push for increase/decrese in minimum wages, which these either create jobs or take them away
The problem is, are any of these long term and 2'nd what perception does these actions leave with the public.
FDR was able to restore the economy, by being a strong truthful leader and absorbing the unemployed for a short period of time. This created the situation whereby the public would spend again, and re-start the economy.
Reagan re-started the economy out of a moderate recession, by increaseing spending, and cutting taxes. In addition, his PR was useful in encouraging spending. While Reagan was a bit of a lier, he had great acting skills and could cover up quit a bit of it
Now, we have W. who did the Reagan thing on what is a relatively mild recession. He has not shown himself to be as animated as Reagan and has been caught routinely in numerous lies. In addition, we have the DOJ trying to terrify voters when it suits their political purpose. The question is, is W. enough of a leader that people (read consumer) will follow? So far, it is tipid at best.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Your response is typical of Bush supporters who use shallow rhetorical devices to distract people from the real issues.
The issue is not that we negotiate with Bin Laden, the issue is to understand the conditions of the Middle East that got us into this mess, including:
Rather than play political games, the US voters need to learn history AND engage in sincere debate. Otherwise our nation is headed for more trouble.
mhack
Building a better ribosome since 1997
While it's nice to know IT salaries are increasing in the US, it's definately not happening in the UK or Europe.
I'm currently looking for a IT job and the salaries are the same or lower than I was paid in 2001. At my last job I didn't get a pay increase during the three years I was there, and I don't know anyone who has received a pay rise.
People have commented the rise is only because all the low paid jobs have been outsourced from the US. In the UK/Europe every IT job has gone - experienced/mid-level/junior the lot. In fact the majority of jobs in the UK are listed as entry level jobs because they're paying peanuts (the same amount of money I was getting in 1997).
The UK and Europe has lost out particularly badly because we're playing 'piggy in the middle'. The high-skill jobs are in the states, the low-paid jobs are in India/China and the UK/Europe gets nothing. The UK doesn't invest enough to get the high-skill jobs and is too expensive for the low pay stuff.
or registered?
Emphasis on the "historically". I've never heard that spoken once in my life, knowing it best only from historical fiction.
If anyone here had reason to refer to it by it's nationality or ethnicity, I have zero doubt it would be a "american" or perhaps "english" (the name of the language, after all) name. If someone were from russion, with a name indicative of that, spelled in cyrillic letters, it would be a russian name, not an eastern orthodox name.
Your salary isn't decided by who is in the white house, it is decided by the skillsets you bring to market and the demand for those skill sets.
This has got to be the most underrated post I have seen yet. The push for companies to not pay dividends is the single largest reason for corporate corruption. Stock holders only want the stock price to go up, and aren't so much concerned about how that happens. When the bottom falls out, they sell at it's peak and then don't care when the price falls. This is inevitable when companies are doing absolutely anything they can to sustain unrealistic growth levels, which are necessary to attract investors.
Dividend paying stocks, on the other hand, attract value investors that are in it for the long term. They will resist having the company do things for short term profit that are bad in the long run. These investors take a greater interest in the company and are more likely to protest when the board votes the CEO a 35% pay increase, since that is THEIR money.
Lower dividend taxes will encourage less of the former type of investments I mentioned and more of the latter.
that is not entirely true. Good example is that FDR created jobs during the Greate Depression by hiring.
This is true. But you know what REALLY ended the depression?
World War 2 did.
The manufacturing industry (in particular) got a huge kick in the pants due to the demand for the supplies that were required to equip a large enough military force to fight a war on two fronts. So there went the unemployment problem. Eligible men were generally sent off to war, so the women had to go to work in the factories in order for supply to keep up with demand.
The economy got going again, in a big way, though the cost was nearly 300,000 lives in the U.S. military alone.
Too bad the Iraq war isn't having such a favorable boost on the economy.
-CausticPuppy "Of all the people I know, you're certainly one of them." -Somebody I don't know
50k+ to start
No experience necessary
Excellent benefits
Traveling allowances
Desire to kill a must
Inquiries should be directed to:
Q: What did the comedian say to the crowd?
A: If I knew, this joke would be funny.
I was going to bring the point up, but you did it so much better than I could have.
Forget the whales - save the babies.
Not to brag, but I did. And it was more than inflation.
isn't hindi the appropriate term
Hindi is a language, isn't it? Perhaps Indian works best, with ethnic divisions used for more specificity.
"We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
I call FUD on this.
There is more oil being produced today than ever before. And prices are still going up. The principle of supply and demand would therefore suggest that demand is quite high.
In fact, a result of globalization has been increased global demand for oil. That has been the driver for high oil prices, not some vast right-wing conspiracy that Dan Rather will report on next week.
Nope. As I said, Hindi is just a language. India has over 18 languages. And that's just the major ones. Besides, going by the linguistic group affiliations of most Indian programmers, you might be more accurate with Telugu/Tamil/Kannadiga/Marathi name.
And yes, most Indian names have religious implications.
So nyeh.
Numbers like this are so incredibly inconsistent with the reality in which I live that I have to decide whether to A) laugh, B) cry, or C) convince myself that they're quoting these figures in Canadian dollarettes or Australian dollaroos.
In western Michigan, for a college graduate to get that kind of money, he'd have to have a degree in Comp Sci plus a decade or more of experience in the particlar discipline the employer is looking for.
Someone with just the CS degree... well, their income is going to depend on how well they do with commissions at Circuit City, or what kind of tips they can get mixing drinks, because all the "entry-level" tech jobs (paying in the $20Ks and $30Ks) have been taken by CS grads with 5-10 years of experience.
http://alternatives.rzero.com/
Correct.
'Indian name' works best. Though, as a grocery clerk ask me when I replied to a question about my name- "what tribe"?
So it boosts US programmers' jobs up until the election, then drops them again. How cynical, and sick.
Someday we'll all be negroes
However, as you yourself point out, the unresolved issue has resulted in massive amounts of money that are diverted for other uses. It goes to corrupt leaders such as Arafat as well as funding for terrorists.
If the United States took strong leadership to resolve the Israeli-Palestinian problem, we would remove a huge, festering sore that has hurt our credibility with the Arab public. It is the massive numbers of everyday people in the Arab world that we must compete for in the fight against Bin Laden and the other extremists.
mhack
Building a better ribosome since 1997
Congrats on getting lots of worthless letters after your name and reaching the ranks of the 'might be pinkslipped' at anytime. Six months from now, when you are suddenly made aware of how expendable you are, you'll be crying the same lament that so many other recently downsized tech guys do. While you spent all that time working in an isolated world, your friends were having a great time and experiencing all kinds of great and horizon broadening things at college. Maybe they just got drunk, maybe they got really involved, hell, maybe they realized that IT wasn't for them and found something they really enjoyed that will allow them the surety of a stable job. Regardless, there are many paths to success. While you seem to consider yourself successful (judging by your narcissim, you're probably a dip-shit with a small ego and a smaller dick) the numbers show that most people who go to college do better than those who only finish high-school. Damn I wish I could make five-figures and think I was the king of the world like you.
Whooa, for a second, I thought the signature:
"It's the queers. They're in it with the aliens. They're building landing strips for gay Martians, I swear to God"
said:
"It's the queers. They're in it with the aliens. They're building landing strips for gay Marines, I swear to God"
So, in "Mars Attacks" would those glass-domed Martians be Jarhead ETs? (LAUGH! I'm the son and nephew of former Marines, and my brother and I both were Sailors, and a cousin is an Army ground pounder.)
Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
Actually, on second thoughts, Sanskrit name would be more accurate. Most Indian ("Hindu") names are based on Sanskrit root words; and then have regional/linguistic variations built on it. Even Singh (Sanskrit- 'Simha' aka Lion).
Good luck with that plan.
No kidding.
Maybe he'll get them to release enough to balace out the $0.50 / gallon gas tax increase he wants to impose (yeah, right). I'm sure that will really help the poor and cause the cost of goods to drop since EVERYTHING is shipped by truck eventually.
Yes, its true!
Salaries are increasing across the board.
This past year the wonderful company that employs me gave all (remaining) staff members a 2% raise!
"You want to know how to help your kids? Leave them the fuck alone." -George Carlin
I have every year for the last eight years. You just need to be the PHB.
I know this seems like a joke, but it is congress that is the joke here. 1998 and 200 were the years of the big H-1b expansions.
Ok, I'll buy that. Sanskrit they are, as far as I'm concerned. Does make sense now that you've said it...
What should we have done? Let the inspectors finish their jobs maybe? Assemble a convincing case and get UN approval before playing cowboy half way across the world for something Hussein *might* do? Afghanistan was one thing, but we also had widespread support, because it was a reasonable and just thing to do, going directly after Bin Laden.
Iraq was something we never should have undertaken. Life is filled with choosing the lesser of two evils. Invading a sovereign nation and pissing off 90% of the Arab world, torturing people, ignoring basic rights, excluding ourselves from international treaty agreements, this whole mess is going to return to us ten-fold over the next century.
From:
... and more.
US-Centered Apocalypse and Recovery Era (UCARE/USCARE) (explained in signature below...)
Well, consider the fact that he continuously harps that jobs are up and jobless claims are down. Yeh, right. Jobs are UP, relative to a specially-selected month. How can they NOT be up?
(Consider the fact that under Clinton, the books show us in a SURPLUS, but now bush has us in a $13 TRILLION deficit, something the cretin refuses to trumpet on his rampage of the land. Who the hell is going to pay for it? Certainly not him or his ilk! WE, the sheep are, or it'll roll over for the next 28 years or longer...)
(Consider that we're likely to suffer a fantastic, agonizing real estate crash, given that a record number of banks and their reckless 105% refi programs are setting us up for foreclosures even WITH layoff insurance on some of these homes. If we crash under these circumstances, it'll make Ivan the Terrible look like a whitecap in a cove. Maybe reverse mortgages for mortgage payers (I avoid "homeowner" since you're NOT a home "owner" until you get the deed. PERIOD!) under age 62 are in order. A cap of 65% of the value/appreciation could be accessed, and used ONLY after a verified layoff has happened. Such persons should have 5 YEARS to recover, considering some career patterns and business cycles. Apartment dwellers, too, deserve such a protection, and home-displaced workers or unemployed need to be under a dignified roof, too. MORE HOMES, fewere TANKS and SHIPS!)
Consider also that he says jobless claims are down. Hell, when you bennies run out, you obviously cannot make a claim!
What we need is a HUGE-assed MySQL database built offshore so the US govt has not authority over it. It would allow anyone so desiring to to:
--acknowlege a disclaimer
--enter some distinctly identifying information
--enter city of layoff/termination/separation
--enter severance pay received
--number of employees 1 week, 2 months, 5 months, and 6 months before this person's termination
--city and county of receipt of unemployment benefits
-- benefits starting balance
-- benefits time remaining
-- how many jobs applied for and passed over for
-- how many household members are out of work
The US Census is SHIT. Even if it now is carried out every 5 years, it's useless if it is only historical by the time it's published.
We need a publicly-trusted, moms-approved, people-used REAL TIME database. Most of the information a person would enter would be a few steps from being published anyway, or public, but filed in a court, press release, or government office.
A public armed with this kind of database could begin to make cold, impassionate, surgical deductions about some CEO's, misinformed candidates, lying incumbents, and more.
Instead of us taxpaysers buying another goddam aircraft carrier, it's aircraft, and accompanying fleet, we should take that 10 BILLION dollar$ and ram it into "Messed Over-Persons and Passed-over Entreprenuers".
Each person with a viable, sane, thorough business plan should be able to get funding, counseling, advertising, and operating expenses for up to 1 year, for up to $10,000 per month.
The cost of it would be to:
-- hire 5 to 10 employees
-- subject the company to government-appointed accountants (not to restrict payroll, but to guarantee as much as possible that fair taxes or income taxes and fees are paid
-- the employer train/equip employees to have alternate skills 6 months prior to any necessary terminations
-- and other things
What the government NEEDS to do, or what BU__SH__ needs to do is:
-- Streamline the IRS
-- Challenge the IRS to scour the IRS cheat database and come up with master templates for various business models and then FOIST those upon EVERY LAST county in the US so that startups and existing moms and pops and any other company can BE IN COMPLIANCE an
Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
I got fantastic pay increases in both 2002 and 2003, but I'm still making less than I was in 2001.
One big pay decrease in 2001.
Woe is me.
the t that's n
Someday we'll all be negroes
There is a simple and direct relationship between wages and the economy.
When the economy is expanding, labour is in demand, and wages rise.
When the economy is stable, labour supply is more or less in balance with demand, wages are stable.
When the economy is contracting, labour is not in demand, and wages decrease.
By and large, Western cultures are entirely inexperienced with a long-term contraction of the economy, which leads to enourmous poverty and suffering, because our more-or-less free market economies, by their efficiency, have more or less been continually growing, despite the various discouragements poor Government has imposed over the years and decades.
The weakness of the US economy in recent years led to stable or decreasing wages in some sectors. The recent recovery has led has reversed this trend.
--
Toby
Nice troll. Actually military spending plummeted under Clinton. Ask anyone that was actually in the military at the time, and they'll talk your ear off about how much it sucked.
Sorry if this sounds somehow stupid, but which degree are they talking about? Master's level or bachelor level? Or does it have any difference salary-wise in US?
Speaking as a powerful CEO who commands billions of dollars and tens of thousands of employee's salaries, I find it necessary to reduce employees' wages on an individual basis based on what moderation level they read Slashdot. The simple fact is that the -1 readers steal the most company time and +5 readers steal the least. Those who do not read Slashdot receive no pay cut.
$10,000 raise as well. Several other people at my office are also getting raises this week. One office does not a trend make, but neither does one circle of friends.
If you have a collective of workers, and fire a lot of the worse-paid, the mean salary will rise. Usually are the lower tech jobs that are outsourced overseas (at first). You just add two and two together.
Rome taught me patience and assiduous application to detail. Virtues which temper the boldness of great, general views.
From the article: 'If those numbers sound enticing, it's probably because computer science graduates are long overdue for a pay increase. "They haven't seen an increase since 2001 and this is the first year, in all four reports, that they showed an increase," Koncz says.'
Please. When I graduated college with a CS degree I made more my first year than my father who had a masters in education and 20 years experience. Salaries had no where to go but down. It's great making a ton of money for typing on a computer, but c'mon, it's not really that hard of a job.
Yes, but whose fault was it for not paying attention? According to many at the CIA, NSA, FBI, Richard Clarke, etc, they blame the current admin as letting down their guards. Even after the previous admin had taken numerous steps to protect the country, this admin dropped the ball. and yes,the previous admin did protect USA as their was only one attack on our soil (the first WTC attack).
I am current CS student with a 4.0 GPA. I will graduate in 2006. I love programing and I will code my ass off for you (unless wife complains I am gone to much, in which case I will need to work from home.) Somebody please have a job ready for me in case Red Hat turns me down.
...
I must respectfully disagree with your assertion that Clinton spent his two terms building up the military. I was in the US Navy from '92 to '99. Clinton continued (and extended) the draw down initiated by Bush 41. It was not until his last year in office that any push was made to reverse the huge dip in moral and readiness... At least in the Navy that is.
As for the "tax cuts for the rich" I am part owner in a small logistics integration firm. I am by no means rich (I pay myself less than I pay most of my employees (hoping to make it up in the long run)). The Bush tax cuts allowed us to re-higher personnel we had to let go due to the 9-11 slump. By bringing back those personnel we where able to increase the number of jobs we could accept. Thereby increasing revenue allowing us to higher even more personnel. Most of the personnel we hired were working in much lower paying jobs. We were able to pay them fairly based on their skill level. Logic follows that this made the new employees (who where middle class at best) richer.
More of my thoughts
Bush gave irresposible tax cuts to the poor too. In fact, a lot more. He gave $300 to everyone and that is at least AN ORDER OF MAGNITUDE MORE that went to people making less than $25,000 than to all the tax cuts (including estate and capital gains) that went to the top 1% of the population making over $200,000.
I'm friends with a history major that graduated from the university I'm attending. She once told me that her ideal job (one that employs a few lucky history buffs) would be to work for a travel mag/cable network flying all over the world to exotic locations to research the interesting local history in order to encourage people to travel there.
Sounds like a tough job to get, but it's a job for a history major.
Let the inspectors finish their jobs maybe
;-)
We had reports from 2 other countries showing he was very close to having a full nuclear program capable of WMD.
Afghanistan was one thing, but we also had widespread support, because it was a reasonable and just thing to do, going directly after Bin Laden.
I agree going directly after Bin Laden was a smarter approach but that would only be relevant if no one else was a threat. If Hussein had nukes he definitely would be a threat to us (much less his own people which were being brutalized and killed).
Life is filled with choosing the lesser of two evils.
Lesser of 2 evils really doesn't help when you have an extremist throwing planes into your buildings killing thousands of your people and another nut that you've attacked before almost has a nuclear arsenal. Either of those 2 evils had a good potential to be catastrophic to the U.S.
Invading a sovereign nation and pissing off 90% of the Arab world, torturing people, ignoring basic rights, excluding ourselves from international treaty agreements, this whole mess is going to return to us ten-fold over the next century. We pissed off more than the Arab world... LOL
but we weren't torturing people. The prisoners we took we humiliated but thats nothing compared to the daily life of an average Iraqi Citizen from 1980 to 2000... or a Serb even!
I do agree with you that it will return to us ten-fold... but I don't see the arguments for not going to war (other than that) and taking Hussein out of power.
Personally if I was president, I would close borders and spend all U.S. tax money bettering our own country and being neutral. But as we all know, hell is still hot and pigs lack wings.... so we deal with what we have
Get paid to code OSS
I'll bite.
The military's budget need not remain constant to maintain a constant level of 'security'. Consider that the threat of terrorism is very different from the threat of the Soviet Union. The military budget at the start of Clinton's term (assuming that Bush 1 didn't reduce it during his term) was at cold war levels. Clinton simply responded to the change in the nature and scale of the threat.
Having said that, I am making a ton of assumptions here that may not bear out in fact. For instance, is fighting terrorism cheaper than a nuclear arms race? I would guess that it is (or should be), but what do I know? YMMV.
Battling Beasts
Times are tough. If there's a hire this guy mod rating, use it please.
I can substitue milk with other protein sources.
The substitute for a house is the homeless shelter.
Factor in the price of housing alone and people are much worse off now than they were four years ago.
4.1% pay increase after a prolonged tech depression means we're still losing ground.
Thanks Mr Bush.
Strange, but it seems to me that if the budget were balanced, the debt would not be increasing. But hey, I'm not a math major. Maybe there's something about addition and subtraction that I missed somewhere along the way.
Yeah, we're at 7.4 Trillion now. Did I say I liked Bush? I hope I didn't imply that.
That effect is now starting to pass and IT is picking up again.
A fine is a tax you pay for doing wrong and a tax is a fine you pay for doing all right.
I agree going directly after Bin Laden was a smarter approach but that would only be relevant if no one else was a threat. If Hussein had nukes he definitely would be a threat to us (much less his own people which were being brutalized and killed).
Ah, and who put him in as the country's dictator? At the time Hussein was put into power he was "the lesser of two evils" I guess, as you so aptly put it. But Bush Sr. definitely and deliberately put that man in power.
Lesser of 2 evils really doesn't help when you have an extremist throwing planes into your buildings killing thousands of your people and another nut that you've attacked before almost has a nuclear arsenal. Either of those 2 evils had a good potential to be catastrophic to the U.S.
Get some perspective man, more people are killed by malnutrition in the U.S. every year than were killed in the 9/11 attack. And it's pretty goddamned hard to starve to death in the U.S.
But as we all know, hell is still hot and pigs lack wings.... so we deal with what we have
Yeah, half the country stupidly elected a power-monger's son who originally set the course for Iraq as we know it today. Bush Sr. and Rumsfeld started it, and then we elected his son. What did we expect the son would do if given even the slightest chance?
We're not policing any of the other countries where human rights atrocities are taking place. We're not willing to start wars with any of them. This is all about family and personal agendas of the person who we all elected to the top post of the Executive branch of our government.
We're the idiots for allowing it to happen.
+++OK ATH
Poor folks pay a higher proportion of income in taxes than do the rich. Sales, payroll, etc. They really aren't lucky duckies for not paying much in income taxes.
Yes, the taxes were taken from the rich. And government services are also given to them. It's that weird disconnect between them I don't get. When you talk about a tax cut, and none of the consequences, or you invent a fairy tale about offsetting gains, you are being irresponsible.
Let's face it - beginning with Reagan the Republicans have never seriously proposed offsetting spending cuts. The current administration has taken budgetary forcasting to new levels of dishonesty. For example, the big tax cuts were heavily back-loaded toward the last five years of a 10 year cycle, but the budget projections were shortened to a 5 year horizon. Currently, the administration vastly inflated the spring deficit forecast so that they could revise it this Fall and claim an improvement.
We were riding for a fall, sure. But it was made longer by an ineffective response. Lowering payroll taxes and extending unemployment benefits would have been a much more effective boost.
Finally, I think we have a demand-driven economy. The jobs are there because someone has money to buy stuff, not because there is investment capital to rearrange. If we have a hot economy, people will find the money to invest. Money's cheap now. Increasing the supply of investment capital through these tax cuts just makes it a little cheaper. It is pushing on a string.
Using your patented library approach, you probably understand Kant's ethics as much as I understand the mathematical proofs of General Relativity. Kant's attempt to formulate a transcendental ethics from the Critique of Pure Reason into the Critique of Practical Reason leaves most Philosophy professors reaching for their reference books during the lecture. You can get the high points with a read through or browsing Wiki, but not much more than that. Fact: Philosophy majors score higher on the GRE and GMAT than *every other major except Chemistry and Physics*. With those results Philosophy must be teaching something worthwhile and valuable. Fact: Liberal Arts degree holders on average earn less, but are more consistently employed than science majors. This is something to consider when your job is send to a cheaper, overseas code monkey.
I got no problem voting with my feet.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/business/20040921-0 85113-7351r.htm
ACCESS EYED FOR FOREIGN WORKERS By Jeffrey Sparshott THE WASHINGTON TIMES September 22, 2004
The Bush administration's top trade official yesterday urged service sector companies to lobby Congress for trade pacts that include easier cross-border movement of professional workers.
U.S. Trade Representative Robert B. Zoellick last year negotiated free-trade agreements with Chile and Singapore that created new "temporary entry" provisions for business visitors, intracompany transfers and professionals in sales, marketing and other fields.
The language incensed some lawmakers, who complained that immigration rules do not belong in trade agreements. House Judiciary Committee Chairman F. James Sensenbrenner Jr., Wisconsin Republican, and his colleagues forced through changes in the trade pacts' visa provisions and demanded future agreements leave out immigration law.
"It is my hope and expectation that the Judiciary Committee's clarion call over the last two weeks that immigration provisions be excluded from future trade agreements will be clearly received by this -- and future -- administrations," Mr. Sensenbrenner said before the July 2003 votes that approved the two agreements.
Mr. Zoellick yesterday at a Capitol Hill forum said that service-sector companies should work with Judiciary Committee members to determine whether they would reconsider.
The Chile and Singapore provisions allow 1,400 Chileans and 5,400 Singaporeans to obtain a new category of renewable, one-year visas to work in the United States -- a tiny fraction of a civilian labor force of 147.7 million. The visa is available to professionals with specialized knowledge in a particular field.
The U.S.-Australia Free Trade Agreement, approved by Congress a year after the other two pacts, did not include immigration provisions. A U.S.-Bahrain pact, not yet approved by Congress, also excludes immigration provisions.
Thailand, however, actively is working to ease movement of professional workers with the United States as part of a free-trade agreement under negotiation.
Service sector companies include finance, insurance, express delivery, health, law and a variety of other businesses. The firms are some of the United States' strongest exporters, and generate a trade surplus in services.
For goods, the trade deficit was $54.5 billion in July, while for services the surplus was $4.4 billion, according to Commerce Department figures.
Service sector companies, which often rely on face-to-face meetings to sell their products, generally support easier movement of personnel.
The Coalition of Service Industries, a trade association, defended the immigration provisions in the Chile and Singapore agreements last year in congressional testimony.
"Moving professional people in and out of foreign countries ... is a critical aspect of services trade," said Norman Sorensen, a coalition member and president of Principal International, an Iowa financial services firm.
And of course salaries can go up if there are less people to employ. A given amount of money divided less ways is more per person.
That's dumb. If you have 3 people working and you lay one off to cut costs, why would you divide the money you save between the other two?
Basically, like anything, salary is based on supply and demand. If there's plenty of unemployed, qualified people eager to work for cheap, why would you give a raise to your current people? You know they're happy with what they have, and if they're not and will actually leave you, you can find a replacement.
Like any finite resource, labor prices (salaries) go up only when supply tightens.
Ecce Europa - Web Design for Business
But since someone brought it up... I remember Greenspan playing a key role in helping that bubble burst. You know, Mr. Irrational Exuberance himself. The guy raising interest rates with the stated purpose of 'slowing down the overheating economy.'
He also stood by and watched Clinton sign away depression era laws in 1999 that had been on the books for decades. Yeah, that's him on the far left. These laws separated banks, securities firms, and insurance companies for a reason. Imagine a bank invested in the stock market. Not only is this a risky investment for a bank holding *YOUR* money, but suppose it provides a conflict of interest. The bank is also dispensing investment advice. Banks might mislead investors in order to bail themselves out of a bad investment, no? Well guess what happens next...
There was plenty of blame to go around. Corporate executives had cooked books while lining their pockets. Analysts at investment banks had recommended stocks they knew were dogs in a quid pro quo that ensured banking business from those same firms.
Which brings us back around to the real reason for our failing economy. Gross mismanagement of tax laws, banking regulations, and the federal budget by congress and the president. And not just this congress and not just this president. You don't get a 7.4 Trillion dollar national debt overnight. That, friend, you cannot blame on me or the terrorists.
Oh you mean the guy who worked for Citigroup and helped Enron swindle billions?
Or Rubin the Sec of Treasury who did nothing while the biggest stock market bubble in history was inflating?
Rubin has 0 credibility.
Considering no-one's changing jobs anymore, people are living with those starting salaries many more years than they used to. It seems to have freed up more cash so companies are giving more up front to the college graduates. On the other hand you're going to be stuck with that level because there's nowhere else to go.
Remember Gore and the D's during the 2000 campaign. They kept saying everything was hunky dory and Bush's warnings about an impending recesion was just his atempt at "talking down the economy".
I guess we know now which party knows more about economics.
IT job with Fortune 500 company. Easy ass job, really nice group. Why move to DC?
you'll be wanting journalists to have proof for their stories before they're published
Yes, I'd "rather" have that too.
[You have a stable society when some nut guns down a schoolyard and the law doesn't change.]
Hi,
> but I don't see the arguments for not going to
> war (other than that) and taking Hussein out of
> power.
Because it is illegal in international law? Invading a country for the express purpose of regime change, however hateful, is not allowed. Think about it, if it were Canada could invade to remove Bush in all impunity (from the legal standpoint).
Since it is illegal a whole country had to be deceived into thinking that Saddam Hussein still had WMDs and that Iraq needed to be invaded *right now*, when the UN inspectors were doing their jobs, when Saddam Hussein agreed (at the last minute) to pretty much anything the US wanted except step down etc. Reports were cooked, evidence were ignored, debate was stifled under the "national security" agenda, international cooperation and goodwill was put in jeopardy. That's why.
Meanwhile the real terrorist organisation who sent plane into the WTC is still at large, currently recruiting in Iraq and elsewhere. American soldiers and now civilian are dying daily in Iraq, democratization is going nowhere, oil prices have gone up because Iraq is still not able to produce as much oil as under the old regime. The US is facing the prospect that the situation might become much worse still, and to keep spending billions of dollars into that debacle for the forseable future.
For what? for oil control and because Saddam Hussein was thumbing his nose at the Bush family. Tell that to the families of the soldiers who died in Iraq.
In case you don't know, doing something illegal in international law can make you indicted for war crimes and interned for the rest of your life. Would you like to see Bush join the Milosevics of this world?
Finally closing the borders wouldn't be very productive. Right now the low US dollar is helping the US economy to recover thanks to the lower cost of US services and products on the international market, at the expense of the Euro zone mostly.
The trouble is you can't close borders one way. If you want to be able to sell, then your clients will want you to be able to buy also. This has been worked out 50 years ago at the end of WWII with the whole GATT and now WTO stuff. Trying to undo this would simply be a disaster for the world and the US economy.
And of course salaries can go up if there are less people to employ. A given amount of money divided less ways is more per person
Yes, of course. When I worked for a bank, they paid 27.5c/mi for our varied running around fixing all the tech equipment in their banking centers. What happened 2 months after they outsourced all us IT field guys to some scumbag "IT Services" company (which, I might add, pays 22c/mi)? Yes, the bank upped their mileage compensation to the IRS standard 37.5c/mi. After all, with all the field guys gone, all you have left are banking-center managers and various executives imposing mileage.
Fuckers! I hope the general public sees what's going on and demands at least a share of the savings, as lower fees, increased APR on their accounts, etc.
[You have a stable society when some nut guns down a schoolyard and the law doesn't change.]
I work for a major company here in the US and I'm in a position that involves interviewing programmers in addition to being a project lead. My experience is that there are a number of folks looking for work (no surprise) but the majority of the folks who are interviewing don't "get it" as far as what they're suppose to be doing or asking during the interview. Most of these folks come in with a lousy attitude and regardless if they have 1 or 20 years of experience, If I can't see myself working with them after they have demonstrated a bad attitude, I recommend a "no hire". As far as outsourcing goes, I've been hearing a lot from companies in my part of town of it happening and it has not sounded good but I recently heard is that at least one MAJOR company has stopped all outsourcing - seems they are re-evaluating the whole thing - so there is hope. I think companies are getting to a point where there has been enough historical evidence of outsourcing that they are determining if it is still a viable option even if after the inital cost-cutting changes they received up-front. As far as no jobs being available out there, I recently looked on the west coast using standard job searching engines like Monster and it looked like there were plenty of programming jobs to me. I've taken a look at other cities in the US and it looks like there are plenty of jobs - I wonder if maybe people have very limited skills that are the ones who are feeling the most pain these days - its very difficult to market yourself with a small skill-set. As far as college degree not being worth anything, my recommendation if you have the option to go with or without a degree, get the degree. A degree is better than no degree. I have found that there is a very small subset of the population who do not have a degree and are programming GODS but for the rest of the population, the degree is an easy discrimminator. The degree says a lot about a person but just having the degree is not a promise either.
He eats babies, simple as that.
/. !
But what's worse is the little-known fact that he's the one behind the IT color scheme on
Global warming is neither science, nor politics. It is a religion.
Being a long time critic of Bushs politics (while not bveing American, I admit) I say the real problem was that he lied from the start.
Had he just said "Look people, we gonna kick that ass once and for all because right now we have troops down there and he is overdue" then we'd have been a bit pissed but most of us would have said "Oh, well. Hussein is an ass so WTF why not." eventually.
Bush basically pissed on everything positive democracy has managed to spit out over the last few decades and THAT will return to you a hundred fold. Europe doesn't like you. It likes you even less than before (but before it was mostly jealousy). And while you might argue that Amercia can do quite well on its own: That's right but it's a lonely and expensive world if you have to do everything on your own.
For all it's worth I hope that Kerry wins and actually corrects some mistakes. He won't be perfect. Nobody is perfect. But at least he could TRY to get closer to Europe again. Be a dependable partner and you'll have dependable partners.
A little something I'd like to point out.
Prices are, for the most part, set by supply and demand. I say "for the most part," because there is some manipulation. We need to remember, though, that crude oil supply isn't the only factor in the supply side of the equation.
In 2003, there was blackout which affected several refineries in the Western U.S., and a pipeline shutdown in Arizona. These refineries supplied most of the gasoline being used in the western States, and the pipeline supplied much of the gas from refineries to distribution points in Arizona. Gas prices in Arizona skyrocketed for a couple weeks, until the refineries could return to normal operations and the pipeline could be re-opened. While the price of crude didn't vary during that time period, the supply of gasoline (not crude) was greatly diminished, causing a spike in prices.
Back in the '90's, many oil companies actually reduced their refining capacity. Meanwhile, gasoline consumption has continued to rise. Now, all the major refineries are operating at 95% capacity or higher. When they slow down at the change in seasons (summer-time gasoline has a different formula from winter-time gasoline, in most areas, and they have to shut down parts of the refinery to change formulas), the price tends to spike for a little while. But, the fact remains, the choke point in the current supply-demand equation, WRT gasoline, isn't the price of crude; it's the refining capacity. The supply is hitting limits, and the demand is still growing. All of this is pushing the price upward, which is pushing the profit margins, for the oil companies, upward.
And yes, these were purposeful manipulations on the part of the oil companies.
... by the Dew of Mountains the thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning
I went to work in summer 2000 (after finishing college December 1999). I was making 48k/year. Summer 2001, it rose to $52k/year (different contract). Summer 2002, it was 55k/year (got hired from a contract position). Summer 2003, I was laid off. I didn't find permanent, full-time work again until May 2004. After 11 months with negligible income, I'm currently somewhere between my 2001 and 2002 wages (in terms of annual salary).
My net income over the last two years has been dismal. I'm making less, per year, than I was two years ago. So, where's this wage and opportunity growth they're talking about? I'm seeing more evidence for the reduced real income that they've been observing for the last two years.
... by the Dew of Mountains the thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning
I have, but then I've lived in Illinois, Ohio, South Carolina, Georgia and even Cuba. I've probably seen more regional inertia in cultural matters than most people.
A lot of parents use their religion as a guiding factor in naming their offspring. And especially in some religions, it's encouraged to change your name when you switch faiths. For example, Cassius Clay becoming Mohammad Ali, or Steven "Cat Stevens" Georgiou becoming Yusuf Islam...
Those who complain about affect & effect on
OK, Ace, you asked for it.
...
... or I will shoot them. America's wealth has been in a large part possible from its stability. You can get your cargo (or family piled in a vacation car) from coast to coast without being shot at, bombed, kidnapped for ransom or lost in some bomb crater. There's a price for that stability: don't fuck the middle class. If you create legions of poor, well, they have little to lose in hijacking "your" stuff. In fact, what's "yours" is largely what society says it is. If you create a society where warlords can rule, they will. If you think social Darwinism is OK, then you have no understanding what will really happen to YOU under those rules.
... violently, if necessary
My condolences on your net 2% loss in income over the last year. I am sure all of the chronically unemployed people will morn your loss. Oh, and those with permanent disabilities will surely bemoan the vicissitudes of modern corporate employment with you, of this I am sure. Plus those overseas outsorced employees who do the work of a $50,000/yr American for a little less than than the cost of you shoe budget and live in sod huts will contrive to share your pain as well.
From 1997 to 1999 I was underemployed. From 2000 to 2002 I was essentially unemployed. My savings vanished, I lost my home, all my stuff was put into storage, and if it were not for the kindness of a friend, I would have lived in a truck instead of a room out of his basement.
In short, go fuck yourself. Do you know what it's like to live in a home without heat in the winter? To choose between food and gasoline? To catch pneumonia so badly that you move like an old man? This is America, not some Third World shitpit peppered with bullet holes. There's no rational reason for what I went through except class warfare. And it's time I admit that I've been fired on; the war was declared a long time ago; and I must return the attack against the upper class (and vicious middle class, probably much like yourself) before I actually end up dead. (Hint: pneumonia can kill you.)
I've just recovered my proper place in the firmament: a modestly-living, middle class, educated American. I deserve things. Nobody owes me a living, but by god the Capitalists owe me the opportunity to work for it. And that means 40 hours per week, chum
The mud-hutters in India have my sympathy. But they have their OWN nation, with their OWN population, OWN resources, and OWN market. They can lift themselves up by their OWN hard work and create the middle class that is so necessary for a modern civilization.
If you couldn't see through your shroud of bitterness there was just a hint of sarcasm there. After reading your post the feeling I came away with is that you are someone who feels that they are entitled to things and that the world owes them something. I could be wrong, but a minor setback should be encouragement for you and a learning experience, not grounds for excessive animosity. Heaven forbid that you have a real setback in life, you might do something rash.
The Capitalists have done something very rash on their own. THEY (not "we") are looting America of OUR (not "their") wealth. Like I said before, war was declared a long time ago and it's foolish to dismiss my figurative bullet wounds as things I did or deserved. If a man goes hungry because he chooses to drink a lot of cheap wine, then he deserves it. If a man goes hungry because he sends out ~300 resumes and ends up tossing meat out of the back of a truck for $6.50/hr, then society is at fault. People aren't tools (they eat and need to pay a mortgage) to be discarded when you lack the vision to put them to use. That's what a fucking employer is: one who employs. It is the responsibility of the Capitalists to put their capital to gainful use. Or We The People should and will take it away from them
[You have a stable society when some nut guns down a schoolyard and the law doesn't change.]
BTW, some invites for anybody who cares....a ff1-194df49add e b24-b577b68ef0 c 2fd-b0904ad927
http://gmail.google.com/gmail/a-f70e1240a6-58bc0f
http://gmail.google.com/gmail/a-f70e1240a6-376a4f
http://gmail.google.com/gmail/a-f70e1240a6-e9139e
Great! Really great! Now anyone (including spambots) who clicks those link will see:
"The link you followed to create a Gmail account has already been used to create an account for shannon.whalen@gmail.com. Now, its account creating powers are all gone. To create another Gmail account, you'll need a shiny new account creation link. We apologize for the inconvenience."
"The link you followed to create a Gmail account has already been used to create an account for badmagicgod@gmail.com. Now, its account creating powers are all gone. To create another Gmail account, you'll need a shiny new account creation link. We apologize for the inconvenience."
and:
"The link you followed to create a Gmail account has already been used to create an account for VincePlatt@gmail.com. Now, its account creating powers are all gone. To create another Gmail account, you'll need a shiny new account creation link. We apologize for the inconvenience."
I'm sure those people must now be very glad that they've done business with you! *SIGH*
I wouldn't give you a job anyway... since you can't seem to grasp basic grammar. Less vs. Fewer
What about your grammar? Three dots is not a substitute for a comma.
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
I didn't mean "three dots" to be a substitute for a comma. I'm using it to show where text was omitted. By the way, the "three dots" is called "ellipses." In addition I'd like to state for the record: neener neener.