Indeed, I recall a "showdown" between NetBSD and FreeBSD where the [stupid] reviewer left WITNESS and all the debugging symbols in the kernel of FreeBSD, then proclaimed loudly that the performance sucked. Well, forgive me for being realistic here, but the reviewer was in need of percussive maitenance with the size 10 clue stick.
Now, some of these folks may have a point in certain circumstances such as tightly controlled benchmarks but, please, let's retain a little objectivity. So there's arguing on the lists. So what? It was ever thus. I give you COLA as an example of what "advocacy" does for an OS and rest my case.
IMHO, Scott could do with a knock from the size 5 clue-stick, too. Rebutting these claims lends credence to them and tends to encourage folks to engage in mindless discussions (like this one) instead of doing what the BSDs do best: Just work. Let's just concentrate on getting things working and leave this style of "advocacy" for the Linux distros, eh?
This is BSD. Sod avocacy if it means in-fighting, mud-slinging, politics and such. We're not Linux or Microsoft so just STFU, code and enjoy. Don't make me come over there...;-)
Well, it kind of is open source software... install it and it opens up your source (and pretty much anything stored on your computer) to anyone who wants it!
Looks like someone took Linus' quote and ran with it:
"Only wimps use tape backup. Real men let everyone else mirror their data!"
Nope, still no joy here and traceroute confirms my DNS and routing is not to blame. ukho.gov.uk (195.92.227.22) is, IIRC a separate site, the UK Home Office server. The RN web site (212.100.236.245) is the one that's/.ed.
At which point I will install it into my car with a tracking pan/tilt mechanism so I can project the words "dumbarse" and "half-wit", amongst others, onto the tyre (tire) covers of passing 4X4s (SUVs). This is what I've waited for for so long. Keep your flying cars, give me REVENGE;-)
...idiot proof. If there is one thing we all learn fairly early on, it is that nature is always one step ahead. Design for the current idiot and nature usually produces a better one.
So is this the fatal flaw of FOSS? Do folks like you and I fall into the trap of assuming just because it's easy for *us* to do what we do, others should find it easy too? Is this the one obstacle that, if overcome, FOSS could indeed rival others in the desktop market?
Taking an objective look at myself, you're right. I do find myself projecting what I find easy onto other people as if they should too, and that is something I'm going to have to modify. Thanks for the insight.
I suppose I'm spoilt by FBSD's ports system where stuff generally works out of the "box" immediately. I hear Debian's apt-get does similar, looking after dependencies automatically, although I would be a bit disappointed with Debian's time-to-update.
You're right, of course. Folks don't want to spend an hour compiling things, and this is where Big Bill and the TC mob have the upper hand. They just want to slam the DVD in the hole and get the latest drivel on the screen and to hell with privacy and control. Me? I like knowing I'm in control. With FOSS, I am. With XP and Media Player who knows who is pushing the damn buttons? Have you ever run a tcpdump on a router supplying a virgin XP SP2 machine with connectivity? It's all subjective.
In a way, FOSS has forced me to learn a bit more about what I'm using. It now takes me ten minutes to install a fully functional Kaffeine using libxine on a FBSD box. When I first tried with gmplayer on Slackware, it took me two days full-on geeky head-in-the-Makefile messing and that's without getting X working in the first place. My family now happily do all the things they once did on Windows on a FreeBSD desktop system, replicated from my own desktop after each upgrade, which is far easier than keeping XP updated. The subjective here is have I lost or gained? Me? I reckon I've gained. Of course, the AMD64 helps with the wall time figure I just quoted;-)
Look up the following: Mplayer, Kaffeine, Xine, LibDVDRead and BZFlag. Not replacements for closed source, really. Far better, IMO. As for ruddy games, that's what the Cube, PS2, Xbox et al are for (yes, in direct contradiction of me mentioning BZFlag. I can be ignorant, too).
You may also want to look at Mozilla, Firefox, Kmail (which, IMO, is the best graphical mail client ever coded), The GIMP, the FreeBSD networking stack and ipfw. These are all bits of open source software that I use on a daily basis that are "in-my-face" and noticeable. They are also the reason I would be lost without my open source OS, along with the myriad other packages running out of sight and mind that keep my computing and networking ticking over without a hitch. Being free hasn't cost me anything, so I guess I'm not qualified to comment...
Grrrrr (smiley noted). Good for you. I hope you can explain to your "Urban hive" dwelling friends why you can do this and they can't. I'm sure they will find your explanation fair. Liberty and justice *for all*, remember?
That sounds sensible. The trouble over here is when you overstep into someone else's spectrum. Band II in the UK (and most of Europe) is the sole domain of the broadcasters and has ever been thus. Run *anything* inside that 20MHz and you can expect, at minimum, all your equipment confiscated and a five year ban from holding any WT transmitting licence. The reality is usually a severe fine and a few months keeping the nastier side of humanity company in one of Her Majesty's institutions.
Hopefully, this discussion will stop anyone making any stupid mistakes and running foul of the law. It has also been refreshing to have a sensible, civilised conversation on Slashdot;-)
It doesn't travel shorter distances. Radio waves don't dissipate but, inversely proportional to the square of the distance travelled become weaker due to spreading out, eventually becoming weaker than the background noise which is why, some believe, ET is so elusive.
It does, however, affect the power distribution, hence the signal-to-noise ratio since background noise is broadband. Bruce is correct that a signal at 75 kHz will appear weaker at a particular spot frequency and against the background noise as a whole. The power is spread out in the wider sidebands, so the power at any one spot frequency will be proportionally less than one using narrow bandwidth. This is easier to see if you think in terms of AM rather than trying to visualise an FM signal which is far more complex.
However, you are correct in the assertion that RF doesn't see your fence. You also raise the very valid point of ERP against power applied to the antenna.
You forget, Bruce, that we in the UK have the 70MHz band which behaves in a similar fashion to Band II VHF. Propagation, even at these frequencies, can occur via Sp-E and tropo-ducting. Your valley, if it is a valley, is an ideal setting for a temperature inversion-type tropo-ducting event (apologies to non-radio types - I'm not going to explain the mechanism, it would take too long).
Point taken on the bandwidth, the power being spread between the components of the sidebands. You also make a good point on the capture effect, but for my side. The way this works, using inverse square law, is that anyone in your immediate vicinity is going to receive you rather than a transmitter using significantly more power but significantly further away.
I still think this is a poor idea to project to the masses. Radio, especially in the broadcast bands where it upsets more than a few zany techie types (we amateurs;-) ) should be treated with respect. That means regulation. You'd be far better off using unlicensed spectrum and building/buying something more suitable for the job. It's OK if it's just you doing this, but can you imagine whole streets of folks running their own transmitters? Not likely, I hear you say. Well, so what? The *theory* is the same. Otherwise, the *possibility* exists for folks driving around listening to Band II picking up a new station on a particular frequency every few hundred yards. If I can see this, you can bet the FCC can too. That they have dropped the limit from 100mW to a field stregth at the boundary (according to posts on here) means they've already taken a look at the problem.
Over here, one strike against you with regards the Wireless Telegraphy Act (the all-encompassing law that governs radio in the UK, passed in 1949 and amended in 1988) and you lose ALL your licences until the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act kicks in. For me that is three, for five years minimum. One professional, one marine and one amateur, the former two being a huge problem if they were lost. How about you? Is it a chance you're willing to take?
You are. Bruce may be "trying to be legal", but I cannot believe a radio amateur would willingly post about something like this. He should be well aware of the propagation at VHF, even with 100mW. It's all about non-interference, not just how much you can get away with.
It would be great if we all did it, wouldn't it? How much of the VHF broadcast band do you think you'd be able to receive then? All you'd get driving down a populated street would be one "home radio" after the next. I don't know about you, but I doubt the FCC would find this acceptable.
The VHF broadcast band is a regulated resource. What you have created is, in effect, a pirate radio station with all the regulatory and copyright issues that that entails. If the FCC/Ofcom or whatever regulatory authority covers your area doesn't take an interest in your "personal radio station" in fairly short order, I'll be very surprised. The performing rights organisations may take an interest, too.
In short, you will be very lucky if you get away with this for long.
Be VERY careful. If you help one neighbour even once with a connectivity issue, chances are your door will never be silent again. This is not a joke. Trust me, you will be sat in front of other people's computers more than you are your own. Be firm from the outset. I'm sure you have better things to do with your time than being dragged from house to house to put the WEP key back in, only to have some luser remove it again.
OK, let's take a step way back a minute. All the "e" business started with the killer app, e-mail, which excelled at bringing access to people's words in locations where powerpoints were available. The "e" in e-mail stands for electronic.
Now, some geeks, myself included, will no doubt look at the old 486 backup DNS box in the corner struggling valiantly to serve one DNS hit an hour and may well see in their mind's eye an octogenarian hamster on its wheel plodding along to keep the disk turning, but apart from this I have yet to *ever* see a mechanical server. The whole damned issue is moot IMHO.
The world has gone crazy over what bits of one's original right to speak or use any word now belongs to corporations. Soon, we'll have to invent a new language just to communicate without getting sued.
Joking apart, this seems like the new land-grab. Perhaps I should register hello as a trademark. No, wait, some stupid magazine beat me to it...
Indeed. What's more, MS couldn't even come up with their NT TCP/IP stack on their own and turned to BSD's implementation. They didn't even *have* their own TCP/IP stack in Windows 3 and users were reliant on Trumpet's version or other third-party offerings. Plenty of prior art here to be going on with, I think.
Somebody ought to force AOL to use this technology. Then, far from having to act their way to a free seedy ROM, there would be a plentiful supply for the bums to eat and, as a side-effect, AOL would actualy be doing something useful for once.
Slashdot Mirror
Indeed, I recall a "showdown" between NetBSD and FreeBSD where the [stupid] reviewer left WITNESS and all the debugging symbols in the kernel of FreeBSD, then proclaimed loudly that the performance sucked. Well, forgive me for being realistic here, but the reviewer was in need of percussive maitenance with the size 10 clue stick.
Now, some of these folks may have a point in certain circumstances such as tightly controlled benchmarks but, please, let's retain a little objectivity. So there's arguing on the lists. So what? It was ever thus. I give you COLA as an example of what "advocacy" does for an OS and rest my case.
IMHO, Scott could do with a knock from the size 5 clue-stick, too. Rebutting these claims lends credence to them and tends to encourage folks to engage in mindless discussions (like this one) instead of doing what the BSDs do best: Just work. Let's just concentrate on getting things working and leave this style of "advocacy" for the Linux distros, eh?
This is BSD. Sod avocacy if it means in-fighting, mud-slinging, politics and such. We're not Linux or Microsoft so just STFU, code and enjoy. Don't make me come over there... ;-)
Well, it kind of is open source software... install it and it opens up your source (and pretty much anything stored on your computer) to anyone who wants it!
Looks like someone took Linus' quote and ran with it:
"Only wimps use tape backup. Real men let everyone else mirror their data!"
Nope, still no joy here and traceroute confirms my DNS and routing is not to blame. ukho.gov.uk (195.92.227.22) is, IIRC a separate site, the UK Home Office server. The RN web site (212.100.236.245) is the one that's /.ed.
The bastards!
/. a military server...
Just goes to show how crappy some of the IT projects in this country are when you can
At which point I will install it into my car with a tracking pan/tilt mechanism so I can project the words "dumbarse" and "half-wit", amongst others, onto the tyre (tire) covers of passing 4X4s (SUVs). This is what I've waited for for so long. Keep your flying cars, give me REVENGE ;-)
/* Copyright (c) 1979, 1980, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994 The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved. */
/* It's our TCP/IP thingy. We're gonna patent it. We own the Internet and all it's (sic) protocols. Resistance is fu... is fut... is useless */
;-)
And a little further down...
A very moving story. Lets' stop this happening.
http://www.amnesty.org
...idiot proof. If there is one thing we all learn fairly early on, it is that nature is always one step ahead. Design for the current idiot and nature usually produces a better one.
So is this the fatal flaw of FOSS? Do folks like you and I fall into the trap of assuming just because it's easy for *us* to do what we do, others should find it easy too? Is this the one obstacle that, if overcome, FOSS could indeed rival others in the desktop market?
Taking an objective look at myself, you're right. I do find myself projecting what I find easy onto other people as if they should too, and that is something I'm going to have to modify. Thanks for the insight.
I suppose I'm spoilt by FBSD's ports system where stuff generally works out of the "box" immediately. I hear Debian's apt-get does similar, looking after dependencies automatically, although I would be a bit disappointed with Debian's time-to-update.
;-)
You're right, of course. Folks don't want to spend an hour compiling things, and this is where Big Bill and the TC mob have the upper hand. They just want to slam the DVD in the hole and get the latest drivel on the screen and to hell with privacy and control. Me? I like knowing I'm in control. With FOSS, I am. With XP and Media Player who knows who is pushing the damn buttons? Have you ever run a tcpdump on a router supplying a virgin XP SP2 machine with connectivity? It's all subjective.
In a way, FOSS has forced me to learn a bit more about what I'm using. It now takes me ten minutes to install a fully functional Kaffeine using libxine on a FBSD box. When I first tried with gmplayer on Slackware, it took me two days full-on geeky head-in-the-Makefile messing and that's without getting X working in the first place. My family now happily do all the things they once did on Windows on a FreeBSD desktop system, replicated from my own desktop after each upgrade, which is far easier than keeping XP updated. The subjective here is have I lost or gained? Me? I reckon I've gained. Of course, the AMD64 helps with the wall time figure I just quoted
Look up the following: Mplayer, Kaffeine, Xine, LibDVDRead and BZFlag. Not replacements for closed source, really. Far better, IMO. As for ruddy games, that's what the Cube, PS2, Xbox et al are for (yes, in direct contradiction of me mentioning BZFlag. I can be ignorant, too).
You may also want to look at Mozilla, Firefox, Kmail (which, IMO, is the best graphical mail client ever coded), The GIMP, the FreeBSD networking stack and ipfw. These are all bits of open source software that I use on a daily basis that are "in-my-face" and noticeable. They are also the reason I would be lost without my open source OS, along with the myriad other packages running out of sight and mind that keep my computing and networking ticking over without a hitch. Being free hasn't cost me anything, so I guess I'm not qualified to comment...
Grrrrr (smiley noted). Good for you. I hope you can explain to your "Urban hive" dwelling friends why you can do this and they can't. I'm sure they will find your explanation fair. Liberty and justice *for all*, remember?
That sounds sensible. The trouble over here is when you overstep into someone else's spectrum. Band II in the UK (and most of Europe) is the sole domain of the broadcasters and has ever been thus. Run *anything* inside that 20MHz and you can expect, at minimum, all your equipment confiscated and a five year ban from holding any WT transmitting licence. The reality is usually a severe fine and a few months keeping the nastier side of humanity company in one of Her Majesty's institutions.
;-)
...-- -.. .
Hopefully, this discussion will stop anyone making any stupid mistakes and running foul of the law. It has also been refreshing to have a sensible, civilised conversation on Slashdot
--...
Smeg. I meant *of* 75 kHz *bandwidth*, of course.
It doesn't travel shorter distances. Radio waves don't dissipate but, inversely proportional to the square of the distance travelled become weaker due to spreading out, eventually becoming weaker than the background noise which is why, some believe, ET is so elusive.
It does, however, affect the power distribution, hence the signal-to-noise ratio since background noise is broadband. Bruce is correct that a signal at 75 kHz will appear weaker at a particular spot frequency and against the background noise as a whole. The power is spread out in the wider sidebands, so the power at any one spot frequency will be proportionally less than one using narrow bandwidth. This is easier to see if you think in terms of AM rather than trying to visualise an FM signal which is far more complex.
However, you are correct in the assertion that RF doesn't see your fence. You also raise the very valid point of ERP against power applied to the antenna.
You forget, Bruce, that we in the UK have the 70MHz band which behaves in a similar fashion to Band II VHF. Propagation, even at these frequencies, can occur via Sp-E and tropo-ducting. Your valley, if it is a valley, is an ideal setting for a temperature inversion-type tropo-ducting event (apologies to non-radio types - I'm not going to explain the mechanism, it would take too long).
;-) ) should be treated with respect. That means regulation. You'd be far better off using unlicensed spectrum and building/buying something more suitable for the job. It's OK if it's just you doing this, but can you imagine whole streets of folks running their own transmitters? Not likely, I hear you say. Well, so what? The *theory* is the same. Otherwise, the *possibility* exists for folks driving around listening to Band II picking up a new station on a particular frequency every few hundred yards. If I can see this, you can bet the FCC can too. That they have dropped the limit from 100mW to a field stregth at the boundary (according to posts on here) means they've already taken a look at the problem.
Point taken on the bandwidth, the power being spread between the components of the sidebands. You also make a good point on the capture effect, but for my side. The way this works, using inverse square law, is that anyone in your immediate vicinity is going to receive you rather than a transmitter using significantly more power but significantly further away.
I still think this is a poor idea to project to the masses. Radio, especially in the broadcast bands where it upsets more than a few zany techie types (we amateurs
Over here, one strike against you with regards the Wireless Telegraphy Act (the all-encompassing law that governs radio in the UK, passed in 1949 and amended in 1988) and you lose ALL your licences until the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act kicks in. For me that is three, for five years minimum. One professional, one marine and one amateur, the former two being a huge problem if they were lost. How about you? Is it a chance you're willing to take?
You are. Bruce may be "trying to be legal", but I cannot believe a radio amateur would willingly post about something like this. He should be well aware of the propagation at VHF, even with 100mW. It's all about non-interference, not just how much you can get away with.
...-- -.. .
It would be great if we all did it, wouldn't it? How much of the VHF broadcast band do you think you'd be able to receive then? All you'd get driving down a populated street would be one "home radio" after the next. I don't know about you, but I doubt the FCC would find this acceptable.
--...
The VHF broadcast band is a regulated resource. What you have created is, in effect, a pirate radio station with all the regulatory and copyright issues that that entails. If the FCC/Ofcom or whatever regulatory authority covers your area doesn't take an interest in your "personal radio station" in fairly short order, I'll be very surprised. The performing rights organisations may take an interest, too.
In short, you will be very lucky if you get away with this for long.
Be VERY careful. If you help one neighbour even once with a connectivity issue, chances are your door will never be silent again. This is not a joke. Trust me, you will be sat in front of other people's computers more than you are your own. Be firm from the outset. I'm sure you have better things to do with your time than being dragged from house to house to put the WEP key back in, only to have some luser remove it again.
What are your reasons for running the old standby suite over the Firefox/Thunderbird combo?
Multizilla
OK, let's take a step way back a minute. All the "e" business started with the killer app, e-mail, which excelled at bringing access to people's words in locations where powerpoints were available. The "e" in e-mail stands for electronic.
Now, some geeks, myself included, will no doubt look at the old 486 backup DNS box in the corner struggling valiantly to serve one DNS hit an hour and may well see in their mind's eye an octogenarian hamster on its wheel plodding along to keep the disk turning, but apart from this I have yet to *ever* see a mechanical server. The whole damned issue is moot IMHO.
The world has gone crazy over what bits of one's original right to speak or use any word now belongs to corporations. Soon, we'll have to invent a new language just to communicate without getting sued.
Joking apart, this seems like the new land-grab. Perhaps I should register hello as a trademark. No, wait, some stupid magazine beat me to it...
Hello (TM) world!
Gates Windows would look a bit stupid, now, wouldn't it?
;o)
I wonder if they compile it with -DOORS -Wall
Indeed. What's more, MS couldn't even come up with their NT TCP/IP stack on their own and turned to BSD's implementation. They didn't even *have* their own TCP/IP stack in Windows 3 and users were reliant on Trumpet's version or other third-party offerings. Plenty of prior art here to be going on with, I think.
Somebody ought to force AOL to use this technology. Then, far from having to act their way to a free seedy ROM, there would be a plentiful supply for the bums to eat and, as a side-effect, AOL would actualy be doing something useful for once.