it might. I just looked at the man for apt-get and they have this: apt-get --dry-run --just-print
I never used those options so I don't know though, But for sure the GUI front ends do, which are that, front ends to the back ends so in total it's a "method". I'm not trying to get ultra picky on it, just looks like the various linux and bsds are quite into the "maybe" territory with this vaguness in yet again another ridiculous IP patent. I guess if it's not clickable but you have to type it in, it wouldn't be covered, but who knows with courts and lawyers.
yes, I have, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, like I said, it's random, and yes, I've cleaned it out and re installed it. I have also seen this behavior in every version of it I have used going back to rh 7.1. I read it on one of their forums as well, other people have seen it happen. Right now it's playing nice, last week I was getting a buhzillion hits it *appeared*, and I always check off that "ignore redundant hits and hits not meant for your machine". I don't know how to reproduce it other than sometimes I turn my machine on and it happens, other times it seems to act normally like it should.
... to all the various linux and bsd "update"package installation types? Apt, RHN, portage, etc, etc.
Here's the quick abstract from the link:
United States Patent 6,557,054 Reisman April 29, 2003 Method and system for distributing updates by presenting directory of software available for user installation that is not already installed on user station
Abstract
A method for distributing information to a plurality of uncoordinated user stations each of which is configured for communications with a multiplicity of independently-operated servers via a non-proprietary network includes steps for providing a distribution service that distributes updates for a plurality of different products, and providing a transporter software component to each of the plurality of uncoordinated user stations, wherein the transporter software component at each user station automatically effects communication sessions with the distribution service via the non-proprietary network for the purpose of obtaining updates for each of at least a subset of the plurality of different products that are installed on that user station. Moreover, a user station, which includes a storage medium, a plurality of different products installed on the storage medium, and transporter software installed on the storage medium for automatically effectuating communication sessions with a distribution service via a non-proprietary network in order to obtain updates for each of the plurality of different products, and a distribution service that distributes updates for a plurality of different products to a plurality of uncoordinated user stations via a non-proprietary network, are also described.
Certainly looks like it to me. Think of the mirrors for updates as well. Looks like it would apply.
It's time to just END intangible patents, cease and desist, it's a bad idea. I'm serious, they never should have been allowed the first non tangible patent. This is not going to advance the arts and sciences any over the long term except for the lawyers and paperwork shufflers guild, as they enjoy the "science" of counting money and spend some of it on expensive fine "art" to hang on their walls. Everyone else it just costs. It has gotten past annoying, past ridiculous, now it's into the harmful range.
I just read the page provided from another reply. Unfortunately, the cessna 150 is too heavy by a few hundred lbs. Rats-a-roni. The FAA must have done that on purpose, because there has got to be more of the small cessnas out there than all those other models listed you would think, so they chose that weight on purpose. Just a guess though.
My boss used to be in the biz of buying/rebuilding/selling planes, and he's got a couple dozen left over sitting around here where I live and work, but I think the 150s are the smallest, maybe anyway. He has a few of those, then mostly he has 172s and 182s and such like, then some bigger twin engine jobbers that look dang nice. I don't really know much about planes or flying other than it's ridiculous expensive,everything about it requires large amounts of folding money to even think about it,it involves more paperwork and licenses and inspections then about anything else a normal human does, and most folks can't afford it, which would be "me" in the most folks category. With the new license though, it made me go "COOL! then hmmm...". I'll have to go look,though, there's one more old odd ball one here that is an army spotter plane(a reproduction) that might be smaller, but I don't know what kind it is. I asked him about ultralights before, he said he quit selling them or advising people to get them or even allowing them on his field, because they were too underpowered, that you didn't have enough power to get you out of situations quickly enough, just unsafe.
I already hit the eyeball limit with cell phones. I won't even consider buying any of the new small ones I see out there, ridiculous tiny,ludicrous keypads, and can't see what's on the screen all that well. And forget PDAs, won't even consider one the way they are now. I'll stick with my brick phone as long as possible. Heck, I'd like to go back to my bag phone really, as much as I even use a cell phone.....
... used market, like does a cessna 150 qualify? Any pilots off the top of their head care to run a short list of planes that might qualify for this new license? Reason I am asking is I might have cheap/free access to one........;)
Side note, I always thought those one seater crop duster type planes would make nice small planes for joe cheap user, because the tanks that normally hold the spray could be modded into just a decent sized fuel tank, giving good flying range.
A "hardware" firewall is just a software firewall on another machine. As such, it's still complex to keep it setup correctly. You can get close to a default good condition, but it's not perfect.
"but it also requires the user to accept or reject applications requesting access (and knowing users, they will just click accept all the time)."
You got it. There is no easy practical way to actually know what all the requests, even when presented with them, actually *mean* right then at the exact second you need to make an executive decision on allow/disallow. You have the tool to do this, but not the knowledge to make the decision intelligently without a LOT of prior research, it is not default "clear" to most people. For one, you as joe user have to know which host/process/connect/in/out is cool or not. The firewall will do what you tell it to do, that part is not difficult, it's binary, yes or no, but if you don't *know* intuitively,in advance of being forced to make a decision, you have to *guess* if you want to continue surfing.
firestarter is Ok but it still gives false positive "hit to your machine" readings, and it's random,not consistent, behavior. Well, at least that's how it happens on my machine, and I've read some other users get that too. A new user could still get confused with it. It's getting closer for a raw beginner but not quite there yet, IMO.
If firewalling in general was easy to do, we wouldn't see these problems nor need IT security people. It's a difficult art, it takes sophisticated software and an even more sophisticated admin to get it setup right and to keep it setup right, even with GUI clicky tools, on any OS. It's the totality of what you have to do,and what you have to know in advance of going online, and for a noob it is fairly daunting. Just look at "processes running". How is a noob supposed to know what all these various running processes are and what are necessary to keep running and what aren't? "Permissions" in general are fairly complex. Ports listening. If that ain't arcane, a noob is supposed to know what his machine is supposed to be listening to and for what reason, when 95% of what is there to read is written in acronyms based on port numbers? Blocking ports, "stealthing" ports, allow this number, but not that number, block this host or not that host based on IP numbers or a host that looks like giberish-24.089.obscure.cz ? How is a noob supposed to know if that is part of a legitimate web request they just did, is it the ads downloading, is it a hack attempt, is it one of the desktop applets running, or what? The way it is setup now, you still need a bit more than just sit down and use a GUI tool.
I think what would be nice for casual surfing for the home user would a way to instantly create a virtual OS image,sort of like a knoppix disk does when you boot from it off a CD, while you are online,mash a button it gets created, it is only in cache jailed off completely from the rest of the machine, it still allows you to surf, but no writing to disk by default.
I think the biggest problem with stand alone machines and desktop computing comes in trying to integrate the networking aspects of it. Your casual user has not a lot of need to have full computer read/write functionalty while online, the computer should drop back to a completely safe mode as soon as you go online, and only open itself back up to full computing power and uses when off-line. Trying to keep both aspects of computing functional at the same time is quite a problem, but if they were really segregated it would be a lot easier.
Hmm, I still think it's rank they can't just show the alleged infractions in detail, and give linux in general a chance to recode around it if in fact there's even a shred of reality to it in any obscure way. They never for one second had to be dinks about it. All they had to do was go "whoa fellas, it ain't much but this here part is really our code, see this and this", and the developers would have gone "aww, shoot,sorry man, OK, we'll fix that" and that would have been that.
Re:I'm gonna get slammed for this...
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I might be the last person left who has never bought or sold anything from e bay. I've gone browsing a few times to look for neat stuff, but never really did anything there.
15%, huh? Does seem high, but I guess the anonymity helps fraudsters. Does ebay actually cooperate, or are they slow and obfuscatory?
ID theft is bad, happened to me before,I think one place I worked at had shady people in the ofice, that's how they got the info. Anyway, I had to eat some utility bills they weren't mine,for places I never lived at, and also had a tax snafu, someone used my soc sec # to work against and claimed like no taxes, 13 kids or something. That was bogus deeeee-luxe.. One utility bill, a phone bill, I only paid partially then got mad/annoyed about it, shoot it was over 500 clams, I just didn't have it and..well, it wasn't my bill! Told the telco that I just wan't going to pay for it, as I discovered the scammer and gave them his name, and also the fact that he was a repeat offender, and had scammed phone useage from other peopleas well, and gave them that info so they could cross check complaints. They didn't care much, just said I was liable for it either way. Bogus. I just get a phone through a third party local vendor now. It also made me a real hardcase in giving out information not needed just to be joe consumer, I just stand there and make a stink, give them my fraud story, embarass them. The best one was back when radio shack was still routinely wanting phone number and address and show size and mothers favorite color, etc. I just plain didn't want to give them that to get two batteries and a flashlight bulb stuff. They don't do it now but they used to. I would refuse, they would say "the computer won't let me do the transaction without this info". So I would say something like "FINE, my name is Fred Ziffle and I live at 1600 pennsylvania avenue,washington dc and my zipcode is 90210 and my phone number is 555-1212". Along those lines. Anyway, that's my supermarket discount food club cards now and anyplace else that want's that jazz but doesn't really need it. People are too casual with their important stuff. I'm suspicious on the web in general, even buying online, I got to have a real phone number that works for a company, and then I send a check or a PO money order, I don't do the CC online deal. I love the net, but I am too paranoid now to use a lot of the functions that revolve around my meager stash of cash.
and they will continually be under investigation by the department of health for "bugs" and for "bundling" bugs with the food, but nothing will ever come of it other than they are forced to give away coupons for free glasses of water to all previous customers.
Re:I'm gonna get slammed for this...
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yay, don't worry about it. Slashdot, like all uncensored forums, will have it's advantages and disadvantages. It's a large place with many diverse viewpoints and personalities. Being a lawyer you are hip to the concept of sometimes people do *non good* stuff. Happens meatworld as well as cyber world. I'm not a programmer either, just a plain old blue collar laborer kinda guy mostly, but I've always been a hardware and science geek, in school I had the bulging briefcase and sliderule and pocket protector and dorky glasses, heh, so well, here I be, it fits. I like geopolitics and macro economy as well, as a long time hobby of much interest, and we sorta hit on those subjects here as well as strictly "software and programming", so I indulge there for whatever it'sworth. There are a lot of programmers here but it's not exclusively for programmers near as I can tell. If ther owners want to make it that way, they can say so and I'll abide by the rules. Until then, near as I can see, it's for any nerds/geeks, which covers a lot of ground. Just pick and choose what you want, it's all you can do, and don't let the crap get to ya.;)
Anyway, without violating seekrit priveleged attorney client booshwah stuff, in any vague terms, what's the most interesting computer case you might or might not have had? Might as well have a short interesting little completely off topic side thread.
Once and for all, it needs to happen, the lawsuits. SOMETHING has to be done for the consumers out there with these "products" that have NO WARRANTY, no suitability for purpose. That's the real question, not what gets done with the software, it's whether or not the software actually works as intended, and if the security is so lame that after years and years any few lines of script can compromise it-it's broken, flaed, shouldn't be sold or used until it is *really* fixed. Recalled, like any other broken product. On one hand, untold billions in profits, people going from working in a garage to multi billionaires in a few years, yet no warranties for their products. Say WHUT? The get out of any responsibility EULA is teh devil. It's the biggest problem when it comes to useability and security on the web. Nothing else comes close to causing so many problems as just universally adopted yet still bogus crapware. No other industry gets such a skate, zero. The only other one with such a deal is major league baseball, they have a special deal to be a monopoly,and it's only entertainment after all, but software people rely on to work, to make their living or to use for their other creations, to communicate, and they expect it to function and be at least reasonably secure. For sale software which is touted as just for lease as-is with no warranty? Nope, it's time that the for-financial-profit software industry is recognized as "mature enough" to require warranties, and if that means a certain few large companies have to eat it and re-code, too bad. I'm looking down the page and you know who has such an obscene amount of literal cash they can buy back millions of their shares and still have more than many small nations GNP in the bank. but no warranty. Why is this? If less software is released but of much better quality,to satisfy a certain minimum warranty, then great. If it means their "stock" takes a beating, too bad. They want intellectual patents to protect their profits, they want to patent intangibles such as IP, they want all the advantages and opportunities to profit that incorporation gives them-then they can play by all the rules everyone else in business offering a product has to follow, a certain minimum warranty.
So, my vote goes for mandatory disclosure. If that means a victim gets sued by another victim, it has to happen sometime. If that means both of those people buy a clue and look upstream and join forces instead and sue the real profiteering scamsters, even better. And any savvy lawyer would see that, too. You want real constructive change, you want a real capitalist solution-let the laws apply to them and get rid of the get out of any responsibility "license" to print money they have.
I sincerely hope so. It sounds as good a plan as any I have heard. We have an incredible tool with the net for freedom loving honest people around the world to use, not only for mundane personal reasons and profit in all it's various forms, but for throwing off this yoke of dependence on various questionable governments. It might take 10 or more generations, but I am fairly confident one day all humans will be as "free" as they choose to be.
Unfortunately, in between now and then will probably be some serious ugliness, and hopefully, again, we will avoid physicist michio kaku's predictions,his basic one being that most civilisations in the universe (he thinks there are "some", that we aren't alone in the universe), never make it past the discovery of uranium for very long.
As near as I can see, Kerry is another Israel-firster. Right now because he is the so called "opposition" he has to try and score points against bush,and those are only for TV talking points and sound bites, in reality he appears a lot closer in foreign policy than what the R & D demagogues seem to think or say out loud. My thoughts are, he will continue to use US forces as shock troops for israel as 50% of what is going down now, and the other 50% is obvious, it's the oil. The whole planet not only wants that oil, they need that oil, and there isn't enough for 6 to 8 billion people, there is roughly enough for 1 billion if they want to eek it out for 50 more years. 6-8 billion people getting the oil, no one gets much and it's still mostly gone within 10-15 years.
No matter who gets appointed as president, I expect the war to expand to iran and syria soon, with saudi arabia after that, and any other islamic country that raises a stink about anything. That is my best guess at this point, and I'll say that's all it is, a guess.
... kernel even out when SCO fist started making accusations and filing various suits? Are they claiming to be psychic now? Are we going to see late night TV commercials from them now?
1-900-SCO-SUES
Re:I'm gonna get slammed for this...
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there are many kinds of nerds. I find no place in the FAQ some sort of exact IT criteria to read and post here. I think the other poster was out of line to you and a touch snobbish. No one is an expert in all aspects of nerd-dom.
well, I'll ask the lame question....
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..not shy about it neither. OK, so we have this new addressing system. How does joe casual computer user go about using this new system then? Is it automagical, or what? Does it depend on your ISP and all the websites out there that are IPv4 now, or what? what do we have to do now, what's the next step?
I admit, I do not "get it" on this other than there's potentially enough addresses out there for most things now..
The who part for managing it is whomever the various governments order and/or authorize to do it. The who part for "policing" is in the quote, the "police". Netcops in some fashion already exist, it will be just a furtherance of those efforts in different directions, all towards government=more control, you as joe surfer=less control. Just the way it's gonna shake out.
All governments are dictatorial/despotic to varying degrees(gasp, indignant protests, oh no MY government XYZ isn't...), and the trend is for this to continue, and for there to be transnational cooperation. All governments have a vested interest in command/control/surveillence of their serfs and subjects, so this will eventually happen.
We are still in a semi wild wild west version of the net, but it isn't going to last very long and you can see it daily. P2P will be the next major stifling efforts, you can smell that coming.
It will be heavily regulated in the semi near future, because all governments want it, and most of big business wants it, and it's incresingly clear there is less and less distinction between big buisnes and big government, so it's gonna happen.
you can't tell, same as with the "original" document that the government produced. They could start out pre-tampered. all you can do is find enough of them and compare them to look for inconsistencies. Unless you wrote it and signed it and released, you have no idea that any random government document is accurate,or is in the same form it was originally written in,you have little to no idea if anything in it is accurrate or purposeful disinformation or just busywork or a CYA effort for some reason. None of the above. Look at the way the reasons to invade iraq were presented, as "fact", based on "intel" from "multiple credible sources". Remember the pictures of the "mobile bioweapons labs" the regime was waving around that eventually were proven to be helium weather balloon "mobile labs"? That's just one example, there are probably thousands if not millions more when you think of all the projects government has been into over all these years. Pick any subject, any topic, any government agency, any year, any regime, you can probably find a lot of screwy documents that wouldn't past the honesty criteria.
The system has been broken for a long time. I have yet to meet any civilian or military government employee, willing to talk about matters off the cuff and off the record, who isn't aware of illegal or questionable shenanigans going on, and the system never gets fixed, it just gets more complex and they get better at keeping the bad stuff hidden.
I'm a skeptic, and based on decades of looking and seeing that this vague thing called "government" is just as apt to obfuscate and lie as tell the truth and be open, I am forced to assume anything they say-or release in document form, even so called "leaked" documents-should be treated with a high degree of incredulity. So the best you can do is compare it with some known data, and check multiple and diverse sources.
can you buy stock in the newspaper? If so, have all the IT department purchased stock? That is a little used avenue to fight back with embarrasingly cheap and inefficient/clueless management. As a stockholder, you have a few goodies to throw into the mix, notably, if management can be demonstrated to be making incorrect decisions, technology decisions that can be absolutely proven to be incorrect, and especially after they were warned against it, you *might* have some interesting legal redress. And if they retaliate against you for going that route, in some states you have other interesting legal redress.
Not make a better product that people will clamor for because it's so great, not actually impart any information of value, nope-"lead" the lulling herds "to" yet another very loosely put *upgrade* so they can make a lot of money for not much work if any. Brainwashing in other words. And where brainwashing doesn't work, just strongarm the vendors or payoff for some legislation or some other shady deal like patenting anything they can think of - just about anything but actually make a decent product for a fair price and compete *honestly*, nope, they have to "induce" an upgrade! HAHAHAHA!
I got a better plan for MS, just like the US did in 'nam, declare victory, go home! Why don't they just call it a night cowboy and retire with their huge boatload of cash? Why are they still flogging this whole deal? Mass hallucinations? What are they trying to prove now, besides thinking they can suck in another generation of suckers, which is just not going to happen. this is 2004, not 1994, people are just not that naieve and stupid any longer. Paying thousands of dollars over the years for stuff THAT IS STILL BROKEN has gotten , real, real old to this "the masses" guy. They should just go out of business, just close up shop, say sayonarrah, go home, play golf, fly around in jets and ride in limos, swap trophy wives around, go buy a big island someplace call it microsoftabania or something and just sit around the beach with a lot of bikinis flitting about while they sip mai-tais.
How much more freeking money do they need for what they did 10-15 years ago? It's gotten into the ludicrous stage with them boys, it's laughable.
Here's a clue to them boys at redmond, who have slipped into advance megalomania, none of them are old enough to remember this. When I was a kid I had a couple of studebakers, they were so-so cars, semi good in their day, they sold quite a few and made a lot of cash. Their day came AND WENT. What they did was close up shop while they still had a little jingle jangle money stashed away and a little common sense and dignity intact. It was the honorable and smart thing to do. Microsoft could do the same thing, just accept the fact they rode the whirlwind for a long time, made money like no one ever before did, big huge giant glitteriing piles of it, boatloads, truckloads, bank fulls, just huge unfathomable amounts in a short time, and they STIL got a lot of it, but it's time to just read the handwritng on the wall, just like Studebaker did, and RETIRE while you still got the cash and at least some shreds of dignity left. Don't be like those poker lusers who ride a hot streak up to a big pile, then gradually watch it dwindle to nothing by morning, get out while you still got the pile and before insanity and greed make you lose it.
When you got entire nations telling you to F-off, take that as a *clue* that the party is over.
why break them up? Because when they were monopolies they got to be price gougers and slowed way down on the innovations and upgrades and just wallowed around in profit slop for years, and masses of people complained about it, and finally they got broken up. I remember paying at and t LD rates , sheesh o rama, you didn't talk long to grandma, tell ya whut... you didn't own your own phone either, you leased it from your telco, and paid it off over and over again for years. Electric deregulation, no idea, I never saw it go down ever, just gradually goes up. I don't think it was really deregulated, I think they just made it easier for hordes of new middle men commodity trader skimmers to cut out lucrative slices of it. City gas, don't use it,I use propane and get it in the summer when it's cheaper. Last I used natgas in a house it was allegedly deregulated,so I checked out the so called competition, and all the prices were almost identical, there was no practical difference that I could see so I stayed with the same company.
As to airlines, I don't have to fly really, last time I flew was a long time ago, like 10 years and I (would potentially) boycott them now since 9-11 turned everyone in the nation but the government (the real crooks) into a terrorist. I am not digging on "you are guilty by default" by those bozos, just the thought of it is abhorrent, the airlines and big bro can byte me, I'll drive. I know some people like ya'all and other business folks *must* fly, oh well, guess that's what you will put up with then. I thought by now everyone would be telecommuting anyway, maybe this fiber to the house idea will catch on and a lot more people will do that. I'll certainly get it if it ever shows up. I know my local phone guys told me (a few months ago when I had POTS installed) there's fiber all the way to the nearest switch box, so I asked them when they were going to offer it to the individual homes down the road,because I was interested in broadband, they said "never, no way, unless they are ordered to by the government". And dsl is out, too far away and they have all the twisted pairs maxed out, I don't know the nitty gritty tech details, something about they "share" the lines or something because of the new houses down the street. So I got fiber a bit over two miles away, and my chances of getting any broadband will be wireless or wireless, that's it.
Point is moot anyway,back to the airlines, we are *one* unpredictable wildcard event away from airline travel being too costly for all but the government and ultra rich. It wouldn't take much for oil to get to 100-150$ a barrel, just another random war (probably happen whenever we provoke iran enough for the next war to start) in the mideast or some massive domestic terrorist deal happening. Probably happen late summer or early fall is my best guess at this point.
Thinking about it,just your situation in general,as it applies to everyone who know travels with the airlines a lot for business, it *might* be a good idea to develop a non travel work around for it "now", as a backup solution so you don't have to scramble to create if something weird hits.
Right now, the main reason more people don't incorporate is because of the *perceived and also real difficulty* of it to most people. They just don't understand that they *can* incorporate. I have worked for a lot of what I would term "entry level" rich people. They understand the concept, so they did it. They are in a corporation or a string of them, precisely from the tax breaks and avoidance of liability issues. Their homes are owned by a corporation, their cars by the corporation, etc. They deduct goofy things joejob never gets to deduct, like having their lawns mowed and going out to lunch with some other entry level rrich friend. They understand the benefits of it, so they do it, wheras joejob doesn't, he thinks only that it's hard and only "those guys" can incorporate, so he just goes and "gets a job" some place never really stopping to think why he's working for a corporation or why he makes so much less than the obvious owners of the corporation.
Now, think what would happen if such a law was passed, eliminating all corporate taxes and simplifying the process of incorporating or actually following all the rules if they were dramatically simplified. The very next day after such a law came into effect, you would have one million more new corporations established, the day after ten million as word and understanding spread, and etc. Who wouldn't drop 50 or 100$ on incorporation paperwork to then pay no taxes? I think most folks could come up with enough friends and relatives to cover the basics that incorporation requires in the terms of officers. You might even see things like large unions that establish a corporation for every 5 people in the union and they go out on strike and demand individual contracts as corporate sub contractors instead of going back to work as a "normal" joejob employee. It would be easy enough to boilerplate the papers too, mass produce it. Who would want to stay stuck as just a joejob tax payer and be forced to pay income taxes and not be able to write off most everything when all they had to do was incorporate and then pay no taxes? Eventually most people would be a "corporation" that consisted of them a few relatives or friends as officers, and they would sit on each others paperwork boards of directors and whatnot. And the easier you make it, with the lure of no taxes, the more who would do it. Even today I am amazed more people don't incorporate this way. Anyway, with the 6 o clock news hitting of "no taxes at all if you are a corporation", it would spread like a wildfire. Everyone would want in on the "no tax" idea. Obviously government wouldn't like this, and would change it back to something else within a few months. The very large corporations that exist now who make buhzillions off of having employees working for cheap for them would insist on it, the backroom smoke would be thick and the politicians would be getting their marching orders.
The only reason now more people don't incorporate is because they-large existing corporations and their paid off politicans and government in general keep it confusing and involved and don't really push it to people on a mass level. The way it is setup now is precisely because it's the way very large corporations and government wants it. neither of those two partners wants to kill their very lucrative golden egg laying goose by letting the "masses" in on the scam. The complexity of it is *precisely* what most large corporations and governments want, because it is more profitable for them that way. It's a huge advantage to very very large corporations, as they have the resources they can devote to it to keep it simpler for the big wage takers inside those corps, ie, they can have dedicated legal paperwork drones to deal with the complexities. Joe smaller guys who try to establish corporations with just a few people have to dedicate a much higher percentage of their own pewsonal time and effort and financial resources in order to accomplish the same thing, hence,this is why in ou
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it might. I just looked at the man for apt-get and they have this: apt-get --dry-run --just-print
I never used those options so I don't know though, But for sure the GUI front ends do, which are that, front ends to the back ends so in total it's a "method". I'm not trying to get ultra picky on it, just looks like the various linux and bsds are quite into the "maybe" territory with this vaguness in yet again another ridiculous IP patent. I guess if it's not clickable but you have to type it in, it wouldn't be covered, but who knows with courts and lawyers.
yes, I have, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, like I said, it's random, and yes, I've cleaned it out and re installed it. I have also seen this behavior in every version of it I have used going back to rh 7.1. I read it on one of their forums as well, other people have seen it happen. Right now it's playing nice, last week I was getting a buhzillion hits it *appeared*, and I always check off that "ignore redundant hits and hits not meant for your machine". I don't know how to reproduce it other than sometimes I turn my machine on and it happens, other times it seems to act normally like it should.
... to all the various linux and bsd "update"package installation types? Apt, RHN, portage, etc, etc.
Here's the quick abstract from the link:
United States Patent 6,557,054
Reisman April 29, 2003
Method and system for distributing updates by presenting directory of software available for user installation that is not already installed on user station
Abstract
A method for distributing information to a plurality of uncoordinated user stations each of which is configured for communications with a multiplicity of independently-operated servers via a non-proprietary network includes steps for providing a distribution service that distributes updates for a plurality of different products, and providing a transporter software component to each of the plurality of uncoordinated user stations, wherein the transporter software component at each user station automatically effects communication sessions with the distribution service via the non-proprietary network for the purpose of obtaining updates for each of at least a subset of the plurality of different products that are installed on that user station. Moreover, a user station, which includes a storage medium, a plurality of different products installed on the storage medium, and transporter software installed on the storage medium for automatically effectuating communication sessions with a distribution service via a non-proprietary network in order to obtain updates for each of the plurality of different products, and a distribution service that distributes updates for a plurality of different products to a plurality of uncoordinated user stations via a non-proprietary network, are also described.
Certainly looks like it to me. Think of the mirrors for updates as well. Looks like it would apply.
It's time to just END intangible patents, cease and desist, it's a bad idea. I'm serious, they never should have been allowed the first non tangible patent. This is not going to advance the arts and sciences any over the long term except for the lawyers and paperwork shufflers guild, as they enjoy the "science" of counting money and spend some of it on expensive fine "art" to hang on their walls. Everyone else it just costs. It has gotten past annoying, past ridiculous, now it's into the harmful range.
I just read the page provided from another reply. Unfortunately, the cessna 150 is too heavy by a few hundred lbs. Rats-a-roni. The FAA must have done that on purpose, because there has got to be more of the small cessnas out there than all those other models listed you would think, so they chose that weight on purpose. Just a guess though.
My boss used to be in the biz of buying/rebuilding/selling planes, and he's got a couple dozen left over sitting around here where I live and work, but I think the 150s are the smallest, maybe anyway. He has a few of those, then mostly he has 172s and 182s and such like, then some bigger twin engine jobbers that look dang nice. I don't really know much about planes or flying other than it's ridiculous expensive,everything about it requires large amounts of folding money to even think about it,it involves more paperwork and licenses and inspections then about anything else a normal human does, and most folks can't afford it, which would be "me" in the most folks category. With the new license though, it made me go "COOL! then hmmm...". I'll have to go look,though, there's one more old odd ball one here that is an army spotter plane(a reproduction) that might be smaller, but I don't know what kind it is. I asked him about ultralights before, he said he quit selling them or advising people to get them or even allowing them on his field, because they were too underpowered, that you didn't have enough power to get you out of situations quickly enough, just unsafe.
I already hit the eyeball limit with cell phones. I won't even consider buying any of the new small ones I see out there, ridiculous tiny,ludicrous keypads, and can't see what's on the screen all that well. And forget PDAs, won't even consider one the way they are now. I'll stick with my brick phone as long as possible. Heck, I'd like to go back to my bag phone really, as much as I even use a cell phone.....
... used market, like does a cessna 150 qualify? Any pilots off the top of their head care to run a short list of planes that might qualify for this new license? Reason I am asking is I might have cheap/free access to one........ ;)
Side note, I always thought those one seater crop duster type planes would make nice small planes for joe cheap user, because the tanks that normally hold the spray could be modded into just a decent sized fuel tank, giving good flying range.
A "hardware" firewall is just a software firewall on another machine. As such, it's still complex to keep it setup correctly. You can get close to a default good condition, but it's not perfect.
"but it also requires the user to accept or reject applications requesting access (and knowing users, they will just click accept all the time)."
You got it. There is no easy practical way to actually know what all the requests, even when presented with them, actually *mean* right then at the exact second you need to make an executive decision on allow/disallow. You have the tool to do this, but not the knowledge to make the decision intelligently without a LOT of prior research, it is not default "clear" to most people. For one, you as joe user have to know which host/process/connect/in/out is cool or not. The firewall will do what you tell it to do, that part is not difficult, it's binary, yes or no, but if you don't *know* intuitively,in advance of being forced to make a decision, you have to *guess* if you want to continue surfing.
firestarter is Ok but it still gives false positive "hit to your machine" readings, and it's random,not consistent, behavior. Well, at least that's how it happens on my machine, and I've read some other users get that too. A new user could still get confused with it. It's getting closer for a raw beginner but not quite there yet, IMO.
If firewalling in general was easy to do, we wouldn't see these problems nor need IT security people. It's a difficult art, it takes sophisticated software and an even more sophisticated admin to get it setup right and to keep it setup right, even with GUI clicky tools, on any OS. It's the totality of what you have to do,and what you have to know in advance of going online, and for a noob it is fairly daunting. Just look at "processes running". How is a noob supposed to know what all these various running processes are and what are necessary to keep running and what aren't? "Permissions" in general are fairly complex. Ports listening. If that ain't arcane, a noob is supposed to know what his machine is supposed to be listening to and for what reason, when 95% of what is there to read is written in acronyms based on port numbers? Blocking ports, "stealthing" ports, allow this number, but not that number, block this host or not that host based on IP numbers or a host that looks like giberish-24.089.obscure.cz ? How is a noob supposed to know if that is part of a legitimate web request they just did, is it the ads downloading, is it a hack attempt, is it one of the desktop applets running, or what? The way it is setup now, you still need a bit more than just sit down and use a GUI tool.
I think what would be nice for casual surfing for the home user would a way to instantly create a virtual OS image,sort of like a knoppix disk does when you boot from it off a CD, while you are online,mash a button it gets created, it is only in cache jailed off completely from the rest of the machine, it still allows you to surf, but no writing to disk by default.
I think the biggest problem with stand alone machines and desktop computing comes in trying to integrate the networking aspects of it. Your casual user has not a lot of need to have full computer read/write functionalty while online, the computer should drop back to a completely safe mode as soon as you go online, and only open itself back up to full computing power and uses when off-line. Trying to keep both aspects of computing functional at the same time is quite a problem, but if they were really segregated it would be a lot easier.
thanks for the info, I didn't realise that.
Hmm, I still think it's rank they can't just show the alleged infractions in detail, and give linux in general a chance to recode around it if in fact there's even a shred of reality to it in any obscure way. They never for one second had to be dinks about it. All they had to do was go "whoa fellas, it ain't much but this here part is really our code, see this and this", and the developers would have gone "aww, shoot,sorry man, OK, we'll fix that" and that would have been that.
I might be the last person left who has never bought or sold anything from e bay. I've gone browsing a few times to look for neat stuff, but never really did anything there.
..well, it wasn't my bill! Told the telco that I just wan't going to pay for it, as I discovered the scammer and gave them his name, and also the fact that he was a repeat offender, and had scammed phone useage from other peopleas well, and gave them that info so they could cross check complaints. They didn't care much, just said I was liable for it either way. Bogus. I just get a phone through a third party local vendor now. It also made me a real hardcase in giving out information not needed just to be joe consumer, I just stand there and make a stink, give them my fraud story, embarass them. The best one was back when radio shack was still routinely wanting phone number and address and show size and mothers favorite color, etc. I just plain didn't want to give them that to get two batteries and a flashlight bulb stuff. They don't do it now but they used to. I would refuse, they would say "the computer won't let me do the transaction without this info". So I would say something like "FINE, my name is Fred Ziffle and I live at 1600 pennsylvania avenue,washington dc and my zipcode is 90210 and my phone number is 555-1212". Along those lines. Anyway, that's my supermarket discount food club cards now and anyplace else that want's that jazz but doesn't really need it. People are too casual with their important stuff. I'm suspicious on the web in general, even buying online, I got to have a real phone number that works for a company, and then I send a check or a PO money order, I don't do the CC online deal. I love the net, but I am too paranoid now to use a lot of the functions that revolve around my meager stash of cash.
15%, huh? Does seem high, but I guess the anonymity helps fraudsters. Does ebay actually cooperate, or are they slow and obfuscatory?
ID theft is bad, happened to me before,I think one place I worked at had shady people in the ofice, that's how they got the info. Anyway, I had to eat some utility bills they weren't mine,for places I never lived at, and also had a tax snafu, someone used my soc sec # to work against and claimed like no taxes, 13 kids or something. That was bogus deeeee-luxe.. One utility bill, a phone bill, I only paid partially then got mad/annoyed about it, shoot it was over 500 clams, I just didn't have it and
heh heh heh %^)
and they will continually be under investigation by the department of health for "bugs" and for "bundling" bugs with the food, but nothing will ever come of it other than they are forced to give away coupons for free glasses of water to all previous customers.
yay, don't worry about it. Slashdot, like all uncensored forums, will have it's advantages and disadvantages. It's a large place with many diverse viewpoints and personalities. Being a lawyer you are hip to the concept of sometimes people do *non good* stuff. Happens meatworld as well as cyber world. I'm not a programmer either, just a plain old blue collar laborer kinda guy mostly, but I've always been a hardware and science geek, in school I had the bulging briefcase and sliderule and pocket protector and dorky glasses, heh, so well, here I be, it fits. I like geopolitics and macro economy as well, as a long time hobby of much interest, and we sorta hit on those subjects here as well as strictly "software and programming", so I indulge there for whatever it'sworth. There are a lot of programmers here but it's not exclusively for programmers near as I can tell. If ther owners want to make it that way, they can say so and I'll abide by the rules. Until then, near as I can see, it's for any nerds/geeks, which covers a lot of ground. Just pick and choose what you want, it's all you can do, and don't let the crap get to ya. ;)
Anyway, without violating seekrit priveleged attorney client booshwah stuff, in any vague terms, what's the most interesting computer case you might or might not have had? Might as well have a short interesting little completely off topic side thread.
Once and for all, it needs to happen, the lawsuits. SOMETHING has to be done for the consumers out there with these "products" that have NO WARRANTY, no suitability for purpose. That's the real question, not what gets done with the software, it's whether or not the software actually works as intended, and if the security is so lame that after years and years any few lines of script can compromise it-it's broken, flaed, shouldn't be sold or used until it is *really* fixed. Recalled, like any other broken product. On one hand, untold billions in profits, people going from working in a garage to multi billionaires in a few years, yet no warranties for their products. Say WHUT? The get out of any responsibility EULA is teh devil. It's the biggest problem when it comes to useability and security on the web. Nothing else comes close to causing so many problems as just universally adopted yet still bogus crapware. No other industry gets such a skate, zero. The only other one with such a deal is major league baseball, they have a special deal to be a monopoly,and it's only entertainment after all, but software people rely on to work, to make their living or to use for their other creations, to communicate, and they expect it to function and be at least reasonably secure. For sale software which is touted as just for lease as-is with no warranty? Nope, it's time that the for-financial-profit software industry is recognized as "mature enough" to require warranties, and if that means a certain few large companies have to eat it and re-code, too bad. I'm looking down the page and you know who has such an obscene amount of literal cash they can buy back millions of their shares and still have more than many small nations GNP in the bank. but no warranty. Why is this? If less software is released but of much better quality,to satisfy a certain minimum warranty, then great. If it means their "stock" takes a beating, too bad. They want intellectual patents to protect their profits, they want to patent intangibles such as IP, they want all the advantages and opportunities to profit that incorporation gives them-then they can play by all the rules everyone else in business offering a product has to follow, a certain minimum warranty.
So, my vote goes for mandatory disclosure. If that means a victim gets sued by another victim, it has to happen sometime. If that means both of those people buy a clue and look upstream and join forces instead and sue the real profiteering scamsters, even better. And any savvy lawyer would see that, too. You want real constructive change, you want a real capitalist solution-let the laws apply to them and get rid of the get out of any responsibility "license" to print money they have.
I sincerely hope so. It sounds as good a plan as any I have heard. We have an incredible tool with the net for freedom loving honest people around the world to use, not only for mundane personal reasons and profit in all it's various forms, but for throwing off this yoke of dependence on various questionable governments. It might take 10 or more generations, but I am fairly confident one day all humans will be as "free" as they choose to be.
Unfortunately, in between now and then will probably be some serious ugliness, and hopefully, again, we will avoid physicist michio kaku's predictions,his basic one being that most civilisations in the universe (he thinks there are "some", that we aren't alone in the universe), never make it past the discovery of uranium for very long.
As near as I can see, Kerry is another Israel-firster. Right now because he is the so called "opposition" he has to try and score points against bush,and those are only for TV talking points and sound bites, in reality he appears a lot closer in foreign policy than what the R & D demagogues seem to think or say out loud. My thoughts are, he will continue to use US forces as shock troops for israel as 50% of what is going down now, and the other 50% is obvious, it's the oil. The whole planet not only wants that oil, they need that oil, and there isn't enough for 6 to 8 billion people, there is roughly enough for 1 billion if they want to eek it out for 50 more years. 6-8 billion people getting the oil, no one gets much and it's still mostly gone within 10-15 years.
No matter who gets appointed as president, I expect the war to expand to iran and syria soon, with saudi arabia after that, and any other islamic country that raises a stink about anything. That is my best guess at this point, and I'll say that's all it is, a guess.
bing & go, you nailed it. And most likely, gates wuill be buying more precious metals mines with his cut, no idea what ballmer will do.
... kernel even out when SCO fist started making accusations and filing various suits? Are they claiming to be psychic now? Are we going to see late night TV commercials from them now?
1-900-SCO-SUES
there are many kinds of nerds. I find no place in the FAQ some sort of exact IT criteria to read and post here. I think the other poster was out of line to you and a touch snobbish. No one is an expert in all aspects of nerd-dom.
..not shy about it neither. OK, so we have this new addressing system. How does joe casual computer user go about using this new system then? Is it automagical, or what? Does it depend on your ISP and all the websites out there that are IPv4 now, or what? what do we have to do now, what's the next step?
I admit, I do not "get it" on this other than there's potentially enough addresses out there for most things now..
"Who would manage it and who would police it? "
The who part for managing it is whomever the various governments order and/or authorize to do it. The who part for "policing" is in the quote, the "police". Netcops in some fashion already exist, it will be just a furtherance of those efforts in different directions, all towards government=more control, you as joe surfer=less control. Just the way it's gonna shake out.
All governments are dictatorial/despotic to varying degrees(gasp, indignant protests, oh no MY government XYZ isn't...), and the trend is for this to continue, and for there to be transnational cooperation. All governments have a vested interest in command/control/surveillence of their serfs and subjects, so this will eventually happen.
We are still in a semi wild wild west version of the net, but it isn't going to last very long and you can see it daily. P2P will be the next major stifling efforts, you can smell that coming.
It will be heavily regulated in the semi near future, because all governments want it, and most of big business wants it, and it's incresingly clear there is less and less distinction between big buisnes and big government, so it's gonna happen.
you can't tell, same as with the "original" document that the government produced. They could start out pre-tampered. all you can do is find enough of them and compare them to look for inconsistencies. Unless you wrote it and signed it and released, you have no idea that any random government document is accurate,or is in the same form it was originally written in,you have little to no idea if anything in it is accurrate or purposeful disinformation or just busywork or a CYA effort for some reason. None of the above. Look at the way the reasons to invade iraq were presented, as "fact", based on "intel" from "multiple credible sources". Remember the pictures of the "mobile bioweapons labs" the regime was waving around that eventually were proven to be helium weather balloon "mobile labs"? That's just one example, there are probably thousands if not millions more when you think of all the projects government has been into over all these years. Pick any subject, any topic, any government agency, any year, any regime, you can probably find a lot of screwy documents that wouldn't past the honesty criteria.
The system has been broken for a long time. I have yet to meet any civilian or military government employee, willing to talk about matters off the cuff and off the record, who isn't aware of illegal or questionable shenanigans going on, and the system never gets fixed, it just gets more complex and they get better at keeping the bad stuff hidden.
I'm a skeptic, and based on decades of looking and seeing that this vague thing called "government" is just as apt to obfuscate and lie as tell the truth and be open, I am forced to assume anything they say-or release in document form, even so called "leaked" documents-should be treated with a high degree of incredulity. So the best you can do is compare it with some known data, and check multiple and diverse sources.
can you buy stock in the newspaper? If so, have all the IT department purchased stock? That is a little used avenue to fight back with embarrasingly cheap and inefficient/clueless management. As a stockholder, you have a few goodies to throw into the mix, notably, if management can be demonstrated to be making incorrect decisions, technology decisions that can be absolutely proven to be incorrect, and especially after they were warned against it, you *might* have some interesting legal redress. And if they retaliate against you for going that route, in some states you have other interesting legal redress.
Just something to think about
quote from beginning of the article:
"Their challenge is to induce more upgrades. "
HAHAHAHAHAHA! "induce" which means "lead -> to"
Not make a better product that people will clamor for because it's so great, not actually impart any information of value, nope-"lead" the lulling herds "to" yet another very loosely put *upgrade* so they can make a lot of money for not much work if any. Brainwashing in other words. And where brainwashing doesn't work, just strongarm the vendors or payoff for some legislation or some other shady deal like patenting anything they can think of - just about anything but actually make a decent product for a fair price and compete *honestly*, nope, they have to "induce" an upgrade! HAHAHAHA!
I got a better plan for MS, just like the US did in 'nam, declare victory, go home! Why don't they just call it a night cowboy and retire with their huge boatload of cash? Why are they still flogging this whole deal? Mass hallucinations? What are they trying to prove now, besides thinking they can suck in another generation of suckers, which is just not going to happen. this is 2004, not 1994, people are just not that naieve and stupid any longer. Paying thousands of dollars over the years for stuff THAT IS STILL BROKEN has gotten , real, real old to this "the masses" guy. They should just go out of business, just close up shop, say sayonarrah, go home, play golf, fly around in jets and ride in limos, swap trophy wives around, go buy a big island someplace call it microsoftabania or something and just sit around the beach with a lot of bikinis flitting about while they sip mai-tais.
How much more freeking money do they need for what they did 10-15 years ago? It's gotten into the ludicrous stage with them boys, it's laughable.
Here's a clue to them boys at redmond, who have slipped into advance megalomania, none of them are old enough to remember this. When I was a kid I had a couple of studebakers, they were so-so cars, semi good in their day, they sold quite a few and made a lot of cash. Their day came AND WENT. What they did was close up shop while they still had a little jingle jangle money stashed away and a little common sense and dignity intact. It was the honorable and smart thing to do. Microsoft could do the same thing, just accept the fact they rode the whirlwind for a long time, made money like no one ever before did, big huge giant glitteriing piles of it, boatloads, truckloads, bank fulls, just huge unfathomable amounts in a short time, and they STIL got a lot of it, but it's time to just read the handwritng on the wall, just like Studebaker did, and RETIRE while you still got the cash and at least some shreds of dignity left. Don't be like those poker lusers who ride a hot streak up to a big pile, then gradually watch it dwindle to nothing by morning, get out while you still got the pile and before insanity and greed make you lose it.
When you got entire nations telling you to F-off, take that as a *clue* that the party is over.
why break them up? Because when they were monopolies they got to be price gougers and slowed way down on the innovations and upgrades and just wallowed around in profit slop for years, and masses of people complained about it, and finally they got broken up. I remember paying at and t LD rates , sheesh o rama, you didn't talk long to grandma, tell ya whut... you didn't own your own phone either, you leased it from your telco, and paid it off over and over again for years. Electric deregulation, no idea, I never saw it go down ever, just gradually goes up. I don't think it was really deregulated, I think they just made it easier for hordes of new middle men commodity trader skimmers to cut out lucrative slices of it. City gas, don't use it,I use propane and get it in the summer when it's cheaper. Last I used natgas in a house it was allegedly deregulated,so I checked out the so called competition, and all the prices were almost identical, there was no practical difference that I could see so I stayed with the same company.
As to airlines, I don't have to fly really, last time I flew was a long time ago, like 10 years and I (would potentially) boycott them now since 9-11 turned everyone in the nation but the government (the real crooks) into a terrorist. I am not digging on "you are guilty by default" by those bozos, just the thought of it is abhorrent, the airlines and big bro can byte me, I'll drive. I know some people like ya'all and other business folks *must* fly, oh well, guess that's what you will put up with then. I thought by now everyone would be telecommuting anyway, maybe this fiber to the house idea will catch on and a lot more people will do that. I'll certainly get it if it ever shows up. I know my local phone guys told me (a few months ago when I had POTS installed) there's fiber all the way to the nearest switch box, so I asked them when they were going to offer it to the individual homes down the road,because I was interested in broadband, they said "never, no way, unless they are ordered to by the government". And dsl is out, too far away and they have all the twisted pairs maxed out, I don't know the nitty gritty tech details, something about they "share" the lines or something because of the new houses down the street. So I got fiber a bit over two miles away, and my chances of getting any broadband will be wireless or wireless, that's it.
Point is moot anyway,back to the airlines, we are *one* unpredictable wildcard event away from airline travel being too costly for all but the government and ultra rich. It wouldn't take much for oil to get to 100-150$ a barrel, just another random war (probably happen whenever we provoke iran enough for the next war to start) in the mideast or some massive domestic terrorist deal happening. Probably happen late summer or early fall is my best guess at this point.
Thinking about it,just your situation in general,as it applies to everyone who know travels with the airlines a lot for business, it *might* be a good idea to develop a non travel work around for it "now", as a backup solution so you don't have to scramble to create if something weird hits.
Just extrapolate it realistically.
Right now, the main reason more people don't incorporate is because of the *perceived and also real difficulty* of it to most people. They just don't understand that they *can* incorporate. I have worked for a lot of what I would term "entry level" rich people. They understand the concept, so they did it. They are in a corporation or a string of them, precisely from the tax breaks and avoidance of liability issues. Their homes are owned by a corporation, their cars by the corporation, etc. They deduct goofy things joejob never gets to deduct, like having their lawns mowed and going out to lunch with some other entry level rrich friend. They understand the benefits of it, so they do it, wheras joejob doesn't, he thinks only that it's hard and only "those guys" can incorporate, so he just goes and "gets a job" some place never really stopping to think why he's working for a corporation or why he makes so much less than the obvious owners of the corporation.
Now, think what would happen if such a law was passed, eliminating all corporate taxes and simplifying the process of incorporating or actually following all the rules if they were dramatically simplified. The very next day after such a law came into effect, you would have one million more new corporations established, the day after ten million as word and understanding spread, and etc. Who wouldn't drop 50 or 100$ on incorporation paperwork to then pay no taxes? I think most folks could come up with enough friends and relatives to cover the basics that incorporation requires in the terms of officers. You might even see things like large unions that establish a corporation for every 5 people in the union and they go out on strike and demand individual contracts as corporate sub contractors instead of going back to work as a "normal" joejob employee. It would be easy enough to boilerplate the papers too, mass produce it. Who would want to stay stuck as just a joejob tax payer and be forced to pay income taxes and not be able to write off most everything when all they had to do was incorporate and then pay no taxes? Eventually most people would be a "corporation" that consisted of them a few relatives or friends as officers, and they would sit on each others paperwork boards of directors and whatnot. And the easier you make it, with the lure of no taxes, the more who would do it. Even today I am amazed more people don't incorporate this way. Anyway, with the 6 o clock news hitting of "no taxes at all if you are a corporation", it would spread like a wildfire. Everyone would want in on the "no tax" idea. Obviously government wouldn't like this, and would change it back to something else within a few months. The very large corporations that exist now who make buhzillions off of having employees working for cheap for them would insist on it, the backroom smoke would be thick and the politicians would be getting their marching orders.
The only reason now more people don't incorporate is because they-large existing corporations and their paid off politicans and government in general keep it confusing and involved and don't really push it to people on a mass level. The way it is setup now is precisely because it's the way very large corporations and government wants it. neither of those two partners wants to kill their very lucrative golden egg laying goose by letting the "masses" in on the scam. The complexity of it is *precisely* what most large corporations and governments want, because it is more profitable for them that way. It's a huge advantage to very very large corporations, as they have the resources they can devote to it to keep it simpler for the big wage takers inside those corps, ie, they can have dedicated legal paperwork drones to deal with the complexities. Joe smaller guys who try to establish corporations with just a few people have to dedicate a much higher percentage of their own pewsonal time and effort and financial resources in order to accomplish the same thing, hence,this is why in ou