I don't agree with your comment about this not having the horsepower/resources to do multitrack recording. Certainly the software would have to be optimized for the device, but it's definately capable of encoding multitrack audio. This device has a 200MHz ARM9 core and a DSP that capable of D1(720x480) resolution video MPEG-4 encoding. It has plenty of resources for virtually any kind of audio signal processing that we'd want.
I appoligize for my ignorance, but isn't all teh above you mention solved by an external mic-preamp? Actually this proposed device doesn't have a built in mic at all.
Also, I should clarify that it's not intended as a replacement for DAT recorder or other pro/semi pro recording devices. It's mainly a player with recording capability. The "audiophile" target was really aimed at playback and really what we meant was to be the highest quality portable audio device on the market.
Engineering would know better (and I'll ask) but I believe that such devices are supported by the hardware specs (through the USB host). The software architecture is at a fairly early stage, but I would assume that MIDI support is readily available in Linux...
I honestly think this is one of the biggest unreported stories of the day. Look some folks want to buy shows for $1.99 and some don't. Bottom line is that it's one additional option and that's great.
The problem is that consumers ability to fair use has been eroding for some time, and ultimately that spells fewer options, not more. What's concerning is that consumers seem to be losing some of their most powerful advocates as consumer electronic manufacturers are more and more getting in bed with content producers. On one side of the coin, that's great and it has the potential to produce seamless integration between devices and services, but all too often it has the effect of limiting consumer rights. Cassette recorders, MP3 players, the VCR etc, all exist because CE companies went to court (and lobbied the legislature) to defend those inventions against the media companies.
Ironically, Sony was one of the plaintiffs in the Napster case but just twenty years prior they were the defendants in the landmark case that officially "legalized" the VCR. That case was the foundation for a lot of fair use rights that was paired back by the DMCA.
Now that Sony owns their own label, and Apple's CEO is also the CEO of Pixar, who will defend fair use rights? The EFF and other consumer groups are great, but you need well funded corporate interests to balance one another, and that balance traditionally been provided by consumer electronics manufacturers v. Hollywood. We're quite out of balance today and that's a little scary.
it's not quite that simple. Yes, cell phones and game consoles prices can be subsidized by sales of services or games, so logic seems to dictate that they would be the only electronics that are sold at a loss, but it's actually more complicated than that. There are lots of manufacturers selling at very low or negative margins for a variety of other reasons.
Sometimes they hope that volumes will drive their costs down, sometimes they hope that retail shelfspace will pay dividends down the road. Sometimes they are just bad cost accountants. Sometimes they are closing out inventory. It's not uncommon that the prices you'll find on ad special at Best Buy are about the same as what you'd find if you were buying directly from the Asian factory making the goods.
I agree. A company or group that has a vested interest would be the easiest source. We look to sponsor projects not so much out of the kindness of our hearts, but rather in liou of paying for development or to encourage sales of our product. If you can find someone to whom you could be in either position, it will be a much easier sell.
Well, I think one ideal situation is that we help sponsor the establishment of a non-profit (that is not controlled or run in any way by us) and then we can make donations back to that, and they can disperse equipment and even compensation from there. Like anything, that organization will need a strong leader, and ideally should be someone independent from us. Nothing runs itself and leadership by comittee is no less a disaster in open source than anywhere else.
Regarding quantification of substantial contributions, yes we're certainly going to do that, and actually we need to be more aggressive in and systematic in doing that. Right now, we vaguely pay attention to who's contributing and make sure we give them free stuff if it comes up, but to your point, Its not very systematic and frankly, I'm sure we're missing some dedicated folks that haven't raised the issue.
Well, this really is something of an experiment. We'll see how it goes. We're certainly not averse to paying contractors or developing stuff in house, but we figured we'd throw this out there and see what happens. This way we don't have to choose a developer based on a resume and anyone can take a shot at it.
Honestly, it might wind up a horrible failure, and we'll learn something from that too.
What works and doesn't work in encouraging open source development is a tricky issue and honestly the best way to figure it out is through experimentation and trying a lot of different things.
In retrospect we probably did release the first version of the device too soon, with something akin to beta firmware. We learned our lesson from that experience.
But that was 18+ months ago and a lot has changed. Even if you don't upgrade the hardware, you'll find huge improvements on the firmware, which is of course a free upgrade. There have probably been 20+ revisions of the firmware since the original release.
Whether you use the official or third party firmware, you'll find huge improvements over your experience described above. Please give it a shot.
Actually we really released the schematics to support the open firmware development. As you know firmware development is pretty reliant on the hardware, so this is more like documentation for that.
Second would be to foster additional backpack development, and other 3rd party hardware add ons.
Actually, I don't think it's so much the low level drivers, which are pretty well supported in Linux, I would guess it's the high level compatibility with services and such.
If you want a device that's compatible out of the gate with every service and DRM scheme out there, then windows is the way to go. Try getting iTMS and WMA DRM files to play on a Linux machine, and you'll end up spending time and money on R&D.
Folks are looking to be able to play all their content on these devices, and this would be the easiest way to do it. We may hate DRM here, but it is a reality out there.
Actually, when we surveyed users on our site before we offered Ogg, there was something of an outcry. Admittedly, we cater to that type of crowd, but Ogg was more requested than all the other codecs combined.
It's one data point, but I can tell you at least one manufacturer heard something of an outcry.
Besides, most manufacturers are really lambs anyway. They don't know or care what their customers really want in any level of detail. They just follow the lead. It's naive to think they really have their fingers on the pulse of what consumers really want.
It certainly shouldn't be THAT common, parent must be really using his devices hard. In our experience, we have a very small fraction of returns coming back as a result of this issue. But I do fundamentally agree with the post that this is not a problem that's unique to Apple.
I'm not one to normally defend Apple, and there might well be a design or manufacturing flaw in the mini. However, there's a good chance it's just getting noticed in the mini because it's so prominent. These things do happen to manufacturers across the board, that's why the manufacturer's customer service is so important when selecting a device.
I agree. I happen to like virgin's streaming radio stations and I'd be willing to pay $10/mo to have a similiar experience on my portable player (but better because I can delete, fast forward adn rewind to my hearts content) then when I hear music worth owning, I'll buy it for a buck.
Again it sounds horrible if you call it music "rental" but it sounds great compared to radio IMHO.
Actually, I think the artists generally like it because it's potentially more efficient promotion. The artists hate the radio industry. If used correctly, Janus should really present the consumer an experience that's more like radio than netflix. Artists promoting directly to fans with out clear channel as a middle man.
Get that to work and you'd really have something, it would bring radio back to where it was a place you could actually get introduced to new music. Then sure, you'd be able to crack the encryption if you wanted, or just buy the song for $1. Same way some folks used to tape off the radio and others bought the albums.
Everyone complains bitterly anytime there's the mere mention of DRM, but if you compare it to radio and think how much it could improve on commercial radio (or even satellite) then you can see that it could really be a big benefit to consumers if done right.
as pointed out elsewhere most of the patents you're referring to are design patents which only protect the appearance. Apple is applying for a utility patent which is defined by the claims of the patent.
To get the patent awarded, Apple will have to convince the examiner that the claims are drafted in such a way that a) no one has ever done what they are describing before and b) it would not be obvious to do it even if it hasn't been done before.
The problem is that the 1.5 GB 1" drives cost the manufacturers a lot more per GB than the physically larger drives (1.8" and 2.5"). A 1.5G 1" drive was running $65 last time I looked (they've probably dropped since), while a 20GB 2.5" can be had for $80 or less in quantity. The 20GB drives for the iPod (1.8") are somewhere slightly north of $100 (maybe $110) in quantity. It's really a question of how much you value smaller physical size v. capacity.
mp3 decoding is $.50/device. Encoding is $2.50 is licensing fees alone, not to mention that you need significant horsepower to encode at a high bitrate in mp3, that's why many smaller players only record to.wav
Encoding to mp3 is probably at least a $20 addition to cost once the product gets to retail, that's where the real savings would be if that one could get solved.
Sure, it could get messy, but money is not the only source of messiness. Money is really a useful if not necessary component of many many open source projects. Many of the big projects require full time effort, Ogg is a good example, it's not easy to develop and maintain a set of Codecs in one's spare time. The use of donations and contract work, has in no way, that I can see, tained the purity of their mission. They still provide an open and royalty and patent free set of codecs. If they accept donations and contract work it only advances the standard as far as I can tell.
I know it may repulse the purists, but I think actually allowing more flexibility in licensing models and corporate involvement would advance the open source movement much more than it would hurt it. There are many open source developers that would quit their day jobs if they could afford to. A little money would not send them to the dark side.
sequential-- You obviously had a horrible experience, if you've had it for that long, you must have had practically the first unit we ever made. Nonetheless, while there's no excuse for that, but the firmware and software really has made tremendous strides, and I don't think you'd have any of those problems anymore.
I do feel badly about your experience and I would like to make it up to you. If you're interested in trying it again, send me an email and I'll take care of it jborn (at) neurosaudio _com.
While I agree filling up a player with 7500 new songs is pretty rediculous, I'll give you a scenario where this is a good deal. I like to explore new music and I can't use commercial radio to do it, and I don't want to use Kazaa.
If the service has a complete catalog (which none have at this point) and the technology is in order (ease of use, good codec, etc) Then for anyone like me, it could be a good deal. I probably spend $100 a year on bad music alone.
Admitedly, the above assumptions are not reality for any service yet, but I'd argue if they were, this would be a good deal.
What if it was open source? Using Ogg for example? The real question here isn't MS or technology, it's the labels and the licensing. Truthfully, this is vaporware at this stage anyway.
But we have been pitched by the services to implement something like this on our device. Now originally, I puked all over the idea, but the reality is that if you can fill up your PC with thousands of songs for $10 a month, its like music on demand for $10/mo. Every service already offers burning or "permenant downloads" for a $1/ea anyway, this would be IN ADDITION to that. If the rest of the service is in order (Codec, complete catalog) I'm kind of coming around to the idea.
Slashdot Mirror
I don't agree with your comment about this not having the horsepower/resources to do multitrack recording. Certainly the software would have to be optimized for the device, but it's definately capable of encoding multitrack audio. This device has a 200MHz ARM9 core and a DSP that capable of D1(720x480) resolution video MPEG-4 encoding. It has plenty of resources for virtually any kind of audio signal processing that we'd want.
I appoligize for my ignorance, but isn't all teh above you mention solved by an external mic-preamp? Actually this proposed device doesn't have a built in mic at all. Also, I should clarify that it's not intended as a replacement for DAT recorder or other pro/semi pro recording devices. It's mainly a player with recording capability. The "audiophile" target was really aimed at playback and really what we meant was to be the highest quality portable audio device on the market.
Engineering would know better (and I'll ask) but I believe that such devices are supported by the hardware specs (through the USB host). The software architecture is at a fairly early stage, but I would assume that MIDI support is readily available in Linux...
I honestly think this is one of the biggest unreported stories of the day. Look some folks want to buy shows for $1.99 and some don't. Bottom line is that it's one additional option and that's great.
The problem is that consumers ability to fair use has been eroding for some time, and ultimately that spells fewer options, not more. What's concerning is that consumers seem to be losing some of their most powerful advocates as consumer electronic manufacturers are more and more getting in bed with content producers. On one side of the coin, that's great and it has the potential to produce seamless integration between devices and services, but all too often it has the effect of limiting consumer rights. Cassette recorders, MP3 players, the VCR etc, all exist because CE companies went to court (and lobbied the legislature) to defend those inventions against the media companies.
Ironically, Sony was one of the plaintiffs in the Napster case but just twenty years prior they were the defendants in the landmark case that officially "legalized" the VCR. That case was the foundation for a lot of fair use rights that was paired back by the DMCA.
Now that Sony owns their own label, and Apple's CEO is also the CEO of Pixar, who will defend fair use rights? The EFF and other consumer groups are great, but you need well funded corporate interests to balance one another, and that balance traditionally been provided by consumer electronics manufacturers v. Hollywood. We're quite out of balance today and that's a little scary.
it's not quite that simple. Yes, cell phones and game consoles prices can be subsidized by sales of services or games, so logic seems to dictate that they would be the only electronics that are sold at a loss, but it's actually more complicated than that. There are lots of manufacturers selling at very low or negative margins for a variety of other reasons.
Sometimes they hope that volumes will drive their costs down, sometimes they hope that retail shelfspace will pay dividends down the road. Sometimes they are just bad cost accountants. Sometimes they are closing out inventory. It's not uncommon that the prices you'll find on ad special at Best Buy are about the same as what you'd find if you were buying directly from the Asian factory making the goods.
Right, from what I've heard retail margins on the iPod are in the 12% range meaning that wholesale is about $175 for the 2GB nano
I agree. A company or group that has a vested interest would be the easiest source. We look to sponsor projects not so much out of the kindness of our hearts, but rather in liou of paying for development or to encourage sales of our product. If you can find someone to whom you could be in either position, it will be a much easier sell.
Well, I think one ideal situation is that we help sponsor the establishment of a non-profit (that is not controlled or run in any way by us) and then we can make donations back to that, and they can disperse equipment and even compensation from there. Like anything, that organization will need a strong leader, and ideally should be someone independent from us. Nothing runs itself and leadership by comittee is no less a disaster in open source than anywhere else.
Regarding quantification of substantial contributions, yes we're certainly going to do that, and actually we need to be more aggressive in and systematic in doing that. Right now, we vaguely pay attention to who's contributing and make sure we give them free stuff if it comes up, but to your point, Its not very systematic and frankly, I'm sure we're missing some dedicated folks that haven't raised the issue.
Well, this really is something of an experiment. We'll see how it goes. We're certainly not averse to paying contractors or developing stuff in house, but we figured we'd throw this out there and see what happens. This way we don't have to choose a developer based on a resume and anyone can take a shot at it.
Honestly, it might wind up a horrible failure, and we'll learn something from that too.
What works and doesn't work in encouraging open source development is a tricky issue and honestly the best way to figure it out is through experimentation and trying a lot of different things.
I'm not sure it's still around, but a player from e.Digital had this feature a few years ago. We had one here for testing.
In retrospect we probably did release the first version of the device too soon, with something akin to beta firmware. We learned our lesson from that experience.
But that was 18+ months ago and a lot has changed. Even if you don't upgrade the hardware, you'll find huge improvements on the firmware, which is of course a free upgrade. There have probably been 20+ revisions of the firmware since the original release.
Whether you use the official or third party firmware, you'll find huge improvements over your experience described above. Please give it a shot.
Joe Born
Neuros Audio, LLC
Actually we really released the schematics to support the open firmware development. As you know firmware development is pretty reliant on the hardware, so this is more like documentation for that. Second would be to foster additional backpack development, and other 3rd party hardware add ons.
Actually, I don't think it's so much the low level drivers, which are pretty well supported in Linux, I would guess it's the high level compatibility with services and such. If you want a device that's compatible out of the gate with every service and DRM scheme out there, then windows is the way to go. Try getting iTMS and WMA DRM files to play on a Linux machine, and you'll end up spending time and money on R&D. Folks are looking to be able to play all their content on these devices, and this would be the easiest way to do it. We may hate DRM here, but it is a reality out there.
Actually, when we surveyed users on our site before we offered Ogg, there was something of an outcry. Admittedly, we cater to that type of crowd, but Ogg was more requested than all the other codecs combined.
It's one data point, but I can tell you at least one manufacturer heard something of an outcry.
Besides, most manufacturers are really lambs anyway. They don't know or care what their customers really want in any level of detail. They just follow the lead. It's naive to think they really have their fingers on the pulse of what consumers really want.
It certainly shouldn't be THAT common, parent must be really using his devices hard. In our experience, we have a very small fraction of returns coming back as a result of this issue. But I do fundamentally agree with the post that this is not a problem that's unique to Apple.
I'm not one to normally defend Apple, and there might well be a design or manufacturing flaw in the mini. However, there's a good chance it's just getting noticed in the mini because it's so prominent. These things do happen to manufacturers across the board, that's why the manufacturer's customer service is so important when selecting a device.
I agree. I happen to like virgin's streaming radio stations and I'd be willing to pay $10/mo to have a similiar experience on my portable player (but better because I can delete, fast forward adn rewind to my hearts content) then when I hear music worth owning, I'll buy it for a buck.
Again it sounds horrible if you call it music "rental" but it sounds great compared to radio IMHO.
Actually, I think the artists generally like it because it's potentially more efficient promotion. The artists hate the radio industry. If used correctly, Janus should really present the consumer an experience that's more like radio than netflix. Artists promoting directly to fans with out clear channel as a middle man.
Get that to work and you'd really have something, it would bring radio back to where it was a place you could actually get introduced to new music. Then sure, you'd be able to crack the encryption if you wanted, or just buy the song for $1. Same way some folks used to tape off the radio and others bought the albums.
Everyone complains bitterly anytime there's the mere mention of DRM, but if you compare it to radio and think how much it could improve on commercial radio (or even satellite) then you can see that it could really be a big benefit to consumers if done right.
as pointed out elsewhere most of the patents you're referring to are design patents which only protect the appearance. Apple is applying for a utility patent which is defined by the claims of the patent. To get the patent awarded, Apple will have to convince the examiner that the claims are drafted in such a way that a) no one has ever done what they are describing before and b) it would not be obvious to do it even if it hasn't been done before.
The problem is that the 1.5 GB 1" drives cost the manufacturers a lot more per GB than the physically larger drives (1.8" and 2.5"). A 1.5G 1" drive was running $65 last time I looked (they've probably dropped since), while a 20GB 2.5" can be had for $80 or less in quantity. The 20GB drives for the iPod (1.8") are somewhere slightly north of $100 (maybe $110) in quantity. It's really a question of how much you value smaller physical size v. capacity.
mp3 decoding is $.50/device. Encoding is $2.50 is licensing fees alone, not to mention that you need significant horsepower to encode at a high bitrate in mp3, that's why many smaller players only record to .wav
Encoding to mp3 is probably at least a $20 addition to cost once the product gets to retail, that's where the real savings would be if that one could get solved.
Sure, it could get messy, but money is not the only source of messiness. Money is really a useful if not necessary component of many many open source projects. Many of the big projects require full time effort, Ogg is a good example, it's not easy to develop and maintain a set of Codecs in one's spare time. The use of donations and contract work, has in no way, that I can see, tained the purity of their mission. They still provide an open and royalty and patent free set of codecs. If they accept donations and contract work it only advances the standard as far as I can tell. I know it may repulse the purists, but I think actually allowing more flexibility in licensing models and corporate involvement would advance the open source movement much more than it would hurt it. There are many open source developers that would quit their day jobs if they could afford to. A little money would not send them to the dark side.
FWIW, I can vouch that he's no one that we've paid. It's not an ad, really:)
sequential-- You obviously had a horrible experience, if you've had it for that long, you must have had practically the first unit we ever made. Nonetheless, while there's no excuse for that, but the firmware and software really has made tremendous strides, and I don't think you'd have any of those problems anymore. I do feel badly about your experience and I would like to make it up to you. If you're interested in trying it again, send me an email and I'll take care of it jborn (at) neurosaudio _com.
While I agree filling up a player with 7500 new songs is pretty rediculous, I'll give you a scenario where this is a good deal. I like to explore new music and I can't use commercial radio to do it, and I don't want to use Kazaa. If the service has a complete catalog (which none have at this point) and the technology is in order (ease of use, good codec, etc) Then for anyone like me, it could be a good deal. I probably spend $100 a year on bad music alone. Admitedly, the above assumptions are not reality for any service yet, but I'd argue if they were, this would be a good deal.
What if it was open source? Using Ogg for example? The real question here isn't MS or technology, it's the labels and the licensing. Truthfully, this is vaporware at this stage anyway. But we have been pitched by the services to implement something like this on our device. Now originally, I puked all over the idea, but the reality is that if you can fill up your PC with thousands of songs for $10 a month, its like music on demand for $10/mo. Every service already offers burning or "permenant downloads" for a $1/ea anyway, this would be IN ADDITION to that. If the rest of the service is in order (Codec, complete catalog) I'm kind of coming around to the idea.