You're wrong. Ever hear of burden of proof? Occam's Razor? A load of power-hungry cultists writing the bible is much simpler than invoking the ineffable. I'm much more likely to beleive quantum physics than christian/muslim/hindu etc. doctrine. I have faith in nothing. Faith is belief without justification. The essence of faith is giving up your questioning, doubt and reason. I believe in some things, but only if they are not disproved.
I find it incongruous in the extreme that you proclaim a belief in Quantum Physics in one breath, then invalidate every previous civilizations explanation for the effects which we use Quantum physics to explain. There is NOTHING which makes the theories involved in Quantum Physics any more valid than the theories involved in Christianity, OR the roman Pantheon. You CAN NOT prove any of what you are saying one way or the other. I do not understand how you can assert a belief in something which is equally as vacuous as what you are denouncing and then turn around and claim you are doing so on some basis other than blind faith in what the priests (scientists) are telling you. I suggest you wake up for a moment and realize that your faith is no more or less valid than mine, or anyone elses, and has an equal chance of being correct. I happen to believe that my faith is correct in essence, you can believe that your faith is correct in essence, but stop trying to denegrate my faith simply because it is not yours.
In the literal sense, the Bible is not the Word of God. God did not himself write it. God did not dictate all of the books to whomever wrote them.
Since the books were written physically by humans, and these humans believed that they were writing in accordance with God's Will, and none of them are around today to ask about the subject, it follows that to beleve that the authors were led by God to pen those words requires faith.
The above poster was simply stating a fact that is readily verifiable, as opposed to a fact that requires faith that the AC may not have (or want, for that matter).
A statement that can not be proven is not a fact. A Fact can be proven true or false. If I say to you 'God himself picked up a pen and wrote the exact words which dwell in the bible' you can not dissprove that. It is my opinion that this is true, and it would be your opinion that it is not. But since we can neither view the event, ask the participants, or check mutually agreed upon sources for confirmation or denial it is impossible to prove such a statement. Hence you can not say that the Bible is NOT the literal word of God without a leap of faith which is equal to that required to believe that the bible IS the literal word of God. Hence all of you atheists are in your own religion, the only truly unbiased are those who are truly agnostic.
You *did* notice that this was an article from The Onion, right? Hence it's not to be taken seriously *at all*?
I really hope you did notice that???
All I saw before I had to leave for a few minutes was the headline on the Slashdot writeup. I didn't get to read the onion Article until I came back up. By that time I had already ruminated over what kind of imbecile was petenting algae... >:)
If that's the funniest thing you read in weeks, then either you forgot to check this out on the Onion, or you're just not as puerile as I am.
jsm
PS: Before its premature termination, that.sig was actually quite funny.
Hmm, the bedwetting thing wasn't as funny to me. And my.sig was funnier before I had to terminate it... It used to say 'Send me 5$ and help me make money!' at the end...
This is easily the funniest thing I've read in weeks! And to make it worse I just glanced at the headline before having to run downstairs for a few minutes. On the way down I figured it was real and was wondering what kind of idiot had patented algae and wanted to market it. The fact that I could even take this seriously for a MINUTE says something about the ludicrous state of our patent system and the IPO frenzy we've been in the middle of.
I assume you're in the US, if not then disregard this message.
FreeTV works with the european systems which use a different protection method than the US. The european system uses VideoCrypt which actually scrambles the video by transposing and rotating scan lines. The US system just supresses the h-sync in the video. So, FreeTV won't work with the US cable system.
Theoretically, the US system should be easy to defeat if you have a tuner card which will dump the raw data from the cable. (I think I've figured out how to do this with a bt828 card, but I haven't actually tried it yet.)
Conceptually I know how to break it, since it's just the scrambled looking thing which is crystal clear, but all swapped around. I just don't have the programming skills to create one. Any idea where I might locate such a program that will work with the US cable system? Anyone with info can e-mail me at the above address if you don't want to answer here for some odd reason.
You're missing the point. It's not Bach's Das Cantenerks that you're buying. You're purchasing the London Symphony Orchestra's performance of Das Cantenwerks. THEY paid for the rights to perform/record/sell their performance -- by purchasing the sheet music, paying the sheet music publisher for redistribution rights, etc. etc.
I believe that the works of the great past composers are public domain -- but only the composition itself. Not any given orchestra's performance of it.
So, feeding the musical notes into a generation program and producing Das Cantenwerks would be legal, what if I did the same thing with some random Backstreet Boys song? They are 90% synthesized anyways. I bet I could recreate it in in minutes, sythesize the voices of me and/or a few of my friends and voila! My very own copy of some new crap pop music song. Is it legal for me to have that? Destribute it? Sell it? Should it be? Would it become so if the BS Boys died?
If it can happen with DVD then presumably it will happen with Digital TV soon. What is going to stop people from downloading illegal decryption software for STB's or TV cards?
Speaking of this, I got a TV tuner last night and then while looking for better viewer software thant the piece of MS trash that comes with it I stumbled across the semi-german version of a program called FreeTV or MoreTV that descrambled cable PPV channels, but because the most of the docs and the program were in german I wasn't able to get it working, anyone know of an english version of this prog or a similar one? It would be interesting to look at, plus I could watch ALL the 'Wrastlin' PPVs for free! >:)
However, there are many that will still buy CDs. For example, my motivations are: 1. I prefere the quality of the CDs tothe MP3. I don't know for pop music, but I like classical music (abot 400 CDs) and there I really hear a difference in quality.
2. With a legal copy of the CD I get the nice covers and the booklet.
3. this ought to be at the 1st place: I think it's illegal to have copies of musical CDs, when you don't own the original
If it is illegal to own a copy of a CD without the original, would it also be illegal to own a CD of say... Das Cantenwerks (Spelling optional) by Bach, that you had not purchased, but instead synthesized by feeding the notes into a music generator? Or even just making copies of someone elses CD of Bach music? Why should this be illegal? Shouldn't the music of such masters be free to be distributed to everyone? I think that once the artists/creator of a work of art is dead their property should enter the public domain. Up until their death they can do anything they want with that property, sell it to companies whatever. But when they die, no matter WHO owns the work, it enters to the public domain.
In essence, something like this would be a virus OS, rather than a conventional virus. Conventional viruses can be dealt with, but a virus OS is a much greater challange.
Soo... You're saying you're waiting for someone to write a smaller version of Win98??
It looks like Roblimo might be a little paranoid in his claims about Microsoft. I have a really strong feeling that Microsoft did nothing intentional to break the Lotus product, and I'll even go out on a limb and say that Lotus probably made the problem themselves by using outdated or unpublished API's even after being warned not to by Microsoft. On the other hand, either way the end result is still the same in that Lotus gets broken, and that should have been caught in the extensive (yeah right) testing done by MS prior to releasing this beast on the world
So Microsoft has the right to order companies to use X api? Yet they can arbitrarily alter their Api's at will... So what if they told Lotus to use the 'Special Lotus Notes API' and then made sure that the service pack would fuck it up? Doesn't seem all THAT far fetched.... After all Lotus DOES compete with MS.
I just decided on VNC as the remote admin solution for the 150+ users in our little company here. Will I now be sued into the ground? >:) Even though VNC isn't the fastest around (NetOP remote Admin is EXTREMELY Fast and Smooth) it was free, which was a blow in its favor. And since extreme high performance isn't really an issue it won out in the long run. I hope they beat the crap out of GraphOn in this and continue their excellent work.
Kintanon
Re:It's all how you look at it
on
Copyright!
·
· Score: 2
Why do people assume a company holding the rights to a particular creation is "wrong" or "unfair"?
If you take that right away from corporations, you also take it away from individuals, individuals who may have spent years creating or inventing something.
It's the Many ganging up on the Few to say, "We've decided you don't have the rights to your own creation anymore
It's not an objection to them owning it, it's an objection to them owning it for ETERNITY. Why does Mark Twain care what we do with his books? He's DEAD! We could all xerox (Uhoh, now they'll be suing me too) every book he's ever written and distribute them free of charge and he wouldn't bat an eye (Dead people aren't prone to sudden movement). So why is it STILL illegal to do so? Because some random publisher bought the rights to his work so that THEY could make money off of something they didn't create and shouldn't own!
Not to mention that the web page, simple as it is, already has a bug. The ALT text on the second phrase is the wrong one. I mean, come on, how hard can it be? These people cannot put together a two-page web site with two tables and a few.gif's, they want to revolutionize the microprocessor scene? I'm not holding my breath.
Are you SURE it's a mistake? Maybe it's intentional! Quick, let's go analayze it!! Hurry before they cover it up!!
i realize GIF wasn't the important part of your message, but it may be worth noting (as others in this thread have) that the/images directory actually contained one PNG: http://www.transmeta.com/images/arrive2.png there were also GIF and JPG versions of this same image. strange things..
Did it occure to anyone that maybe they have a working model of the chip and that it is running their webserver? And that the webserver may have photoshop, Gimp, RedHat, Apache, and who knows what else running on it at a whim? Maybe they are rotating the image types and things just for their own amusement to make sure that the processor runs everything equally.... >:)
From what I've heard most people surmise that it would end up being a Good Thing for Bill Gates if MS were broken up along product lines as he would then own stock in half a dozen or more highly succesfull, smaller companies. In light of this what is your opinion of what a proper punishment should be assuming that punishment is warranted?
Step 1: Remove the TNT Riva from your system. Step 2: Place the Riva on your living room floor. Step 3: Liberally sprinkle lighter fluid and/or gasoline onto the Riva Step 4: Light the Riva. Step 5: Go purchase a decent 3D Card such as the 99$ V3 2000.
Apparently you aren't following the Q3:A Test path here. I doubt you were even using the most current version of the Test. This is the Demo which includes a new map and the Bots. It also has the finalized icon and menu settings. But I wish they had made it easier to turn the grapple back on... I hate playing the longest yard with no grapple...
Uggh... those Sidewinders are designed for right hands. Is that even comfortable? I tried playing keyboard / joystick before, movement w/ W, X, A & D), and using the joystick to look, but it was unwieldly.
I use a Logitech Cyberman 2 as my controller. Trackballs are just too slow. The recovery time from one side of the screen to the other just isn't quite there, and the precision is missing a little. As it stands, LC2 + Mouse = You get PWEENED!! >:)
Kintanon --- Look for me on various servers as Valis
Who the hell plays quake with a controller? It's all about mouse power baby. =) I mean all of this in good natured fun of course I use the mouse with the controller. It looks a little odd, but it works for my poor hands. The Controller is nice and ergonomic for my left hand. I use it for forward, strafing, jump, crouch, zoom and item use. Mouse for aiming, firing, and switching weapons. I consistently score in the top 5 of any server I drop by.
I'm glad I beat the slashdot crowd by a couple of hours. Oh, and YEEHAAA! It finally supports my controller. My hands have been suffering something terrible playing with the KBD. I look forward to fragging you all senseless!
Question#2: Many of us in the hacker community (not cracker) used the Packet Storm security site for information and research. You had it shut down for some alleged things in the/jp directory.
Sounds like they're saying the rumor is factual to me. I read most of the posts as well, and I have to agree with him that most of the slashdotters have already judged him guilty (now, whether they did so with cause or not is a different story - but the general consensus is that every allegation against him is true.)
You seem to be mistaken in the definition of Fact. A Fact is simply a statement which can be Proven or Disproven, it is not necessarily true or accurate. Only proveable. Saying that JP had packetstorm shut down is a FACT in that one can prove whether or not his action led to the removal of packetstorm.
so he's rude and hostile, and he avoided some serious questions, but why every/.er just ignores the valid part of his reply? -- i mean the part about PacketStorm and Attritton. Could somebody verify what he said is true or not?
What he said concerning packetstorm and attrition conflicts with EVERY version of EVERY account by EVERYONE else. Synthesis has the most accurate account that I've found, it leaves out most of the more extreme stuff from both sides. But it's definately not favorable to JP. There are links from it all through the thread here.
Angst has always been really cheap online, dude. That truism goes way, way back. So get all husky and hostile and talk about spitting in someone's face. Because we know it's all ASCII.
Most of you guys get all your excercize pushing the mouse back and forth on your desk.
Speak for yourself mouse jockey. An equal amount of us are involved in martial arts, weight lifting, rugby, soccer, and a myriad of other physical activities. If you wish to disparage someone on the basis of their leisure activities at least do so in a manner which specificly addresses your target and not the broader audience of the debate.
Slashdot Mirror
You're wrong. Ever hear of burden of proof? Occam's Razor? A load of power-hungry cultists writing the bible is much simpler than invoking the ineffable. I'm much more likely to beleive quantum physics than christian/muslim/hindu etc. doctrine. I have faith in nothing. Faith is belief without justification. The essence of faith is giving up your questioning, doubt and reason. I believe in some things, but only if they are not disproved.
I find it incongruous in the extreme that you proclaim a belief in Quantum Physics in one breath, then invalidate every previous civilizations explanation for the effects which we use Quantum physics to explain. There is NOTHING which makes the theories involved in Quantum Physics any more valid than the theories involved in Christianity, OR the roman Pantheon.
You CAN NOT prove any of what you are saying one way or the other. I do not understand how you can assert a belief in something which is equally as vacuous as what you are denouncing and then turn around and claim you are doing so on some basis other than blind faith in what the priests (scientists) are telling you. I suggest you wake up for a moment and realize that your faith is no more or less valid than mine, or anyone elses, and has an equal chance of being correct. I happen to believe that my faith is correct in essence, you can believe that your faith is correct in essence, but stop trying to denegrate my faith simply because it is not yours.
Kintanon
Because, I presume, it is a fact.
In the literal sense, the Bible is not the Word of God. God did not himself write it. God did not dictate all of the books to whomever wrote them.
Since the books were written physically by humans, and these humans believed that they were writing in accordance with God's Will, and none of them are around today to ask about the subject, it follows that to beleve that the authors were led by God to pen those words requires faith.
The above poster was simply stating a fact that is readily verifiable, as opposed to a fact that requires faith that the AC may not have (or want, for that matter).
A statement that can not be proven is not a fact. A Fact can be proven true or false. If I say to you 'God himself picked up a pen and wrote the exact words which dwell in the bible' you can not dissprove that. It is my opinion that this is true, and it would be your opinion that it is not. But since we can neither view the event, ask the participants, or check mutually agreed upon sources for confirmation or denial it is impossible to prove such a statement. Hence you can not say that the Bible is NOT the literal word of God without a leap of faith which is equal to that required to believe that the bible IS the literal word of God. Hence all of you atheists are in your own religion, the only truly unbiased are those who are truly agnostic.
Kintanon
You *did* notice that this was an article from The Onion, right? Hence it's not to be taken seriously *at all*?
I really hope you did notice that???
All I saw before I had to leave for a few minutes was the headline on the Slashdot writeup. I didn't get to read the onion Article until I came back up. By that time I had already ruminated over what kind of imbecile was petenting algae...
>:)
Kintanon
If that's the funniest thing you read in weeks, then either you forgot to check this out on the Onion, or you're just not as puerile as I am.
.sig was actually quite funny.
.sig was funnier before I had to terminate it... It used to say 'Send me 5$ and help me make money!' at the end...
jsm
PS: Before its premature termination, that
Hmm, the bedwetting thing wasn't as funny to me. And my
Kintanon
This is easily the funniest thing I've read in weeks! And to make it worse I just glanced at the headline before having to run downstairs for a few minutes. On the way down I figured it was real and was wondering what kind of idiot had patented algae and wanted to market it. The fact that I could even take this seriously for a MINUTE says something about the ludicrous state of our patent system and the IPO frenzy we've been in the middle of.
Kintanon
I assume you're in the US, if not then disregard this message.
FreeTV works with the european systems which use a different protection method than the US. The european system uses VideoCrypt which actually scrambles the video by transposing and rotating scan lines. The US system just supresses the h-sync in the video. So, FreeTV won't work with the US cable system.
Theoretically, the US system should be easy to defeat if you have a tuner card which will dump the raw data from the cable. (I think I've figured out how to do this with a bt828 card, but I haven't actually tried it yet.)
Conceptually I know how to break it, since it's just the scrambled looking thing which is crystal clear, but all swapped around. I just don't have the programming skills to create one. Any idea where I might locate such a program that will work with the US cable system?
Anyone with info can e-mail me at the above address if you don't want to answer here for some odd reason.
Kintanon
You're missing the point. It's not Bach's Das Cantenerks that you're buying. You're purchasing the London Symphony Orchestra's performance of Das Cantenwerks. THEY paid for the rights to perform/record/sell their performance -- by purchasing the sheet music, paying the sheet music publisher for redistribution rights, etc. etc.
I believe that the works of the great past composers are public domain -- but only the composition itself. Not any given orchestra's performance of it.
So, feeding the musical notes into a generation program and producing Das Cantenwerks would be legal, what if I did the same thing with some random Backstreet Boys song? They are 90% synthesized anyways. I bet I could recreate it in in minutes, sythesize the voices of me and/or a few of my friends and voila! My very own copy of some new crap pop music song. Is it legal for me to have that? Destribute it? Sell it? Should it be? Would it become so if the BS Boys died?
Kintanon
If it can happen with DVD then presumably it will happen with Digital TV soon. What is going to stop people from downloading illegal decryption software for STB's or TV cards?
Speaking of this, I got a TV tuner last night and then while looking for better viewer software thant the piece of MS trash that comes with it I stumbled across the semi-german version of a program called FreeTV or MoreTV that descrambled cable PPV channels, but because the most of the docs and the program were in german I wasn't able to get it working, anyone know of an english version of this prog or a similar one? It would be interesting to look at, plus I could watch ALL the 'Wrastlin' PPVs for free! >:)
Kintanon ---Redneck at heart
However, there are many that will still buy CDs. For example, my motivations are:
1. I prefere the quality of the CDs tothe MP3. I don't know for pop music, but I like classical music (abot 400 CDs) and there I really hear a difference in quality.
2. With a legal copy of the CD I get the nice covers and the booklet.
3. this ought to be at the 1st place: I think it's illegal to have copies of musical CDs, when you don't own the original
If it is illegal to own a copy of a CD without the original, would it also be illegal to own a CD of say... Das Cantenwerks (Spelling optional) by Bach, that you had not purchased, but instead synthesized by feeding the notes into a music generator? Or even just making copies of someone elses CD of Bach music? Why should this be illegal? Shouldn't the music of such masters be free to be distributed to everyone? I think that once the artists/creator of a work of art is dead their property should enter the public domain. Up until their death they can do anything they want with that property, sell it to companies whatever. But when they die, no matter WHO owns the work, it enters to the public domain.
Wouldn't that be a perfect solution?
Kintanon
In essence, something like this would be a virus OS, rather than a conventional virus. Conventional viruses can be dealt with, but a virus OS is a much greater challange.
Soo... You're saying you're waiting for someone to write a smaller version of Win98??
Kintanon
It looks like Roblimo might be a little paranoid in his claims about Microsoft. I have a really strong feeling that Microsoft did nothing intentional to break the Lotus product, and I'll even go out on a limb and say that Lotus probably made the problem themselves by using outdated or unpublished API's even after being warned not to by Microsoft.
On the other hand, either way the end result is still the same in that Lotus gets broken, and that should have been caught in the extensive (yeah right) testing done by MS prior to releasing this beast on the world
So Microsoft has the right to order companies to use X api? Yet they can arbitrarily alter their Api's at will... So what if they told Lotus to use the 'Special Lotus Notes API' and then made sure that the service pack would fuck it up? Doesn't seem all THAT far fetched.... After all Lotus DOES compete with MS.
Kintanon
I just decided on VNC as the remote admin solution for the 150+ users in our little company here. Will I now be sued into the ground? >:)
Even though VNC isn't the fastest around (NetOP remote Admin is EXTREMELY Fast and Smooth) it was free, which was a blow in its favor. And since extreme high performance isn't really an issue it won out in the long run. I hope they beat the crap out of GraphOn in this and continue their excellent work.
Kintanon
Why do people assume a company holding the rights to a particular creation is "wrong" or "unfair"?
If you take that right away from corporations, you also take it away from individuals, individuals who may have spent years creating or inventing something.
It's the Many ganging up on the Few to say, "We've decided you don't have the rights to your own creation anymore
It's not an objection to them owning it, it's an objection to them owning it for ETERNITY. Why does Mark Twain care what we do with his books? He's DEAD! We could all xerox (Uhoh, now they'll be suing me too) every book he's ever written and distribute them free of charge and he wouldn't bat an eye (Dead people aren't prone to sudden movement). So why is it STILL illegal to do so? Because some random publisher bought the rights to his work so that THEY could make money off of something they didn't create and shouldn't own!
Kintanon
Not to mention that the web page, simple as it is, already has a bug. The ALT text on the second phrase is the wrong one. I mean, come on, how hard can it be? These people cannot put together a two-page web site with two tables and a few .gif's, they want to revolutionize the microprocessor scene? I'm not holding my breath.
Are you SURE it's a mistake? Maybe it's intentional! Quick, let's go analayze it!! Hurry before they cover it up!!
Kintanon
i realize GIF wasn't the important part of your message, but it may be worth noting (as others in this thread have) that the /images directory actually contained one PNG:
http://www.transmeta.com/images/arrive2.png
there were also GIF and JPG versions of this same image.
strange things..
Did it occure to anyone that maybe they have a working model of the chip and that it is running their webserver? And that the webserver may have photoshop, Gimp, RedHat, Apache, and who knows what else running on it at a whim? Maybe they are rotating the image types and things just for their own amusement to make sure that the processor runs everything equally.... >:)
Kintanon
Mmmmmmmmm.... Rumors...
In your opinion what are the chances of succesful Class Action suites against Microsoft regardless of the outcome of the trial or the DoJs actions?
Kintanon
From what I've heard most people surmise that it would end up being a Good Thing for Bill Gates if MS were broken up along product lines as he would then own stock in half a dozen or more highly succesfull, smaller companies.
In light of this what is your opinion of what a proper punishment should be assuming that punishment is warranted?
Kintanon
No problem:
Step 1: Remove the TNT Riva from your system.
Step 2: Place the Riva on your living room floor.
Step 3: Liberally sprinkle lighter fluid and/or gasoline onto the Riva
Step 4: Light the Riva.
Step 5: Go purchase a decent 3D Card such as the 99$ V3 2000.
Kintanon
Apparently you aren't following the Q3:A Test path here. I doubt you were even using the most current version of the Test. This is the Demo which includes a new map and the Bots. It also has the finalized icon and menu settings. But I wish they had made it easier to turn the grapple back on... I hate playing the longest yard with no grapple...
Kintanon
Uggh... those Sidewinders are designed for right hands. Is that even comfortable? I tried playing keyboard / joystick before, movement w/ W, X, A & D), and using the joystick to look, but it was unwieldly.
I use a Logitech Cyberman 2 as my controller. Trackballs are just too slow. The recovery time from one side of the screen to the other just isn't quite there, and the precision is missing a little. As it stands, LC2 + Mouse = You get PWEENED!! >:)
Kintanon --- Look for me on various servers as Valis
Who the hell plays quake with a controller? It's all about mouse power baby. =) I mean all of this in good natured fun of course
I use the mouse with the controller. It looks a little odd, but it works for my poor hands. The Controller is nice and ergonomic for my left hand. I use it for forward, strafing, jump, crouch, zoom and item use. Mouse for aiming, firing, and switching weapons. I consistently score in the top 5 of any server I drop by.
Kintanon
I'm glad I beat the slashdot crowd by a couple of hours.
Oh, and YEEHAAA! It finally supports my controller. My hands have been suffering something terrible playing with the KBD.
I look forward to fragging you all senseless!
Kintanon
Question#2: /jp directory.
Many of us in the hacker community (not cracker)
used the Packet Storm security site for
information and research. You had it shut down for some alleged things in the
Sounds like they're saying the rumor is factual to me. I read most of the posts as well, and I have to agree with him that most of the slashdotters have already judged him guilty (now, whether they did so with cause or not is a different story - but the general consensus is that every allegation against him is true.)
You seem to be mistaken in the definition of Fact. A Fact is simply a statement which can be Proven or Disproven, it is not necessarily true or accurate. Only proveable. Saying that JP had packetstorm shut down is a FACT in that one can prove whether or not his action led to the removal of packetstorm.
Kintanon
so he's rude and hostile, and he avoided some serious questions, but why every /.er just ignores the valid part of his reply? -- i mean the part about PacketStorm and Attritton. Could somebody verify what he said is true or not?
What he said concerning packetstorm and attrition conflicts with EVERY version of EVERY account by EVERYONE else. Synthesis has the most accurate account that I've found, it leaves out most of the more extreme stuff from both sides. But it's definately not favorable to JP. There are links from it all through the thread here.
Kintanon
Angst has always been really cheap online, dude. That truism goes way, way back. So get all husky and hostile and talk about spitting in someone's face. Because we know it's all ASCII.
Most of you guys get all your excercize pushing the mouse back and forth on your desk.
Speak for yourself mouse jockey. An equal amount of us are involved in martial arts, weight lifting, rugby, soccer, and a myriad of other physical activities. If you wish to disparage someone on the basis of their leisure activities at least do so in a manner which specificly addresses your target and not the broader audience of the debate.
Kintanon