So everybody is happy. What's your complaint, then?
I guess my first complaint is that you completely ignore the point. The foreign workers aren't happy, and the American workers aren't happy. Worst of all, the American workers blame the foreigners for "stealing their jobs".
Proof, please. Just because you believe that this is possibly true does not make it so, and handwaving isn't going to help.
I've had first-hand experience. If you really want proof for yourself, go work in any of top-10 the companies listed here, and see what I'm talking about.
Of course, if that's too difficult, you could just try and use some common sense. H1B workers don't want to have to leave. Even if their home country isn't horrible, simply having to uproot your life and move everything (again) is a significant burden. So these foreign workers really don't want to be forced to leave. Now couple that with the fact that the employer has complete control over whether the worker is allowed to stay in the US. If the worker is fired, they've got 10 days to leave the US. Imagine trying to move to another country in 10 days. Of course these people are going to work really hard to make sure they don't get fired. Even if the the company doesn't treat them fairly, they'll still grin and bear it.
Now given that, which kind of employee do you think most high-tech companies would rather have: someone who they can pay less, treat badly, and still squeeze 90 hours/week out of, without any significant risk that they'll leave, or an American who will work a normal amount of hours, demand raises, and leave for a competitor if you don't give them what they want?
Wonderful. You "guarantee". And what would you do if your prediction fails?
I'm not saying to remove the quota. Keep it. The worst that would happen is that H1B workers would no longer be indentured servants. Oh, I guess that's just too horrible. But if you actually think through the motivations of the companies, and look at the restrictions placed on foreign workers, you'll see that the current system is set up to not only hurt foreign workers, but also American workers as well.
High-tech companies (at least ones with some sense) hire people they need. Whether the person is an American or an H1B holder is a relatively minor issue. Do you really think that the whole world has less talent to offer than just the United States of America?
My point is that is isn't a minor issue for these companies. As it stands, there is a significant benefit to hiring H1B workers. If the changes I propose were made, then the balance would shift the other way. There would be a benefit to hiring Americans, because the company wouldn't have to pay for the legal work required to get a visa. Right now, that legal work is insignificant compared to the gains of having employees who will work exceedingly long hours, and won't leave unless you fire them.
I define "completely open" as anybody who wants to can come in and live (and work) here for as long as he wants.
So tell me, what would be wrong with that provided these people paid taxes (which they do)?
Er.. weren't you just saying that without artificial incentives the high-tech companies will just hire American workers instead of these damned foreigners? Please unconfuse yourself.
What I'm talking about is the fact that immigrant workers are getting more and more pissed off at the INS. I wouldn't be too surprised if in a few years all of the good high tech workers leave for Canada instead. When the supply of indentured servants dries up, the American high tech companies will either have to leave or do their development outside of the US.
If you're a high-tech worker, becoming a permanent resident of Canada (Canadian equivalent of getting a greencard) is extremely easy. From what I've heard, you can actually complete the process in a couple of months. Canada isn't nearly as xenophobic or draconian as the US...
First of all, you can change jobs provided you can persuade your new company to get you an H1B.
Yes, and then you only have to wait 3 or 4 months... if you're lucky.
Second, most people I know who work on H1Bs have an understanding with the company that after a couple of years, the company will sponsor that person for a green card.
Anyone with an H1B who wants to get a greencard better start the application process earlier than "after a couple of years". The greencard process typically takes 4-5 years. H1Bs only last 3 years, and you can only get one renewal, hence you've only got 6 years.
But of course most companies are more than happy to sponsor a greencard, because your application will be cancelled if you leave the company. Given the time constraints, you can't very easily apply for a greencard at another company, so you're pretty much stuck.
There are plenty of places where you work 9-to-5 (e.g. most government jobs, by the way).
I'm fairly certain that non-US citizens can't get jobs in the US government.
You are making a bargain: your time for money. If you don't like the terms, do not agree to the bargain.
I think his complaint had to do with the fact that H1B workers typically work longer hours for equal or even lower pay than American workers. Of course, any thinking American would be angry about this as well. After all, if companies can get immigrants to work harder for less money than Americans, there's a pretty strong incentive for these companies to hire immgrants rather than Americans, isn't there?
Looking out for your own interests, wouldn't it be better if there weren't any artificial advantages to hiring non-American workers? In particular, shouldn't American companies be forced to pay them the same wages, and shouldn't they (the foreign workers) be able to change jobs as easily as Americans? If this isn't the case (and it isn't), you end up with American companies preferring foreigners, because they're cheaper, do more work, and they're effectively "locked in" for the term of their visa. It's no wonder that high-tech companies would rather hire foreigners than Americans who only work 40 hours/week, demand raises, and leave if they don't get what they want...
If H1B workers and greencard applicants could switch jobs anywhere near as easily as American workers, I guarantee that the H1B quotas wouldn't even be reached the following year. High tech companies would start hiring Americans first, and only hiring H1B workers when they needed to. Is't that the way it should be?
Well, generally speaking, if you are not an American you cannot come live here at all. That is normal and it is as it should be. If you don't think so, try thinking through the consequences of allowing completely open immigration.
I'm not sure how you define "completely open". I certainly think immigration in the US coul be a lot more open than it is, and be better for Americans and "aliens" alike.
Besides, what have you done that makes you deserve special treatment? You were born here? Who cares? You are aware that alien workers (the INS term) pay taxes and social security, right?
Besides, isn't it strange: if US sucks so much, why so many people are willing to spend great effort and accept huge risks for a chance of living here?
Don't worry, the INS's policies are making the environment hostile enough that soon all of the high-tech companies will leave, or just hire people to do development overseas. Won't that be great for the American economy...
Actually, I'd rather have a huge load of Meccano - Erector to Americans.
I had both Meccano and Erector sets when I was a kid. They were quite different. For example, the "beams" in the Meccano set were completely flat, like they were stamped out of sheet metal, and were painted (usually dark blue or light yellow). The "beams" in the Erector set weren't painted, nor were they flat. The edges were bent and the screw holes were dented in for counter-sunk screws. The screws in the Erector set had a much larger diameter and coarser thread than those in the Meccano set, and the spacing between the screw holes was different.
It's true... stay off the caffiene, ritalin, prozak, and alcohol. They're highly addictive, mind altering drugs with some pretty nasty side effects. Only losers need that crap.
Actually, ritalin, prozac and alcohol aren't normally addictive. For the above, and other drugs, you probably shouldn't take them unless you've got a medical reason.
Everytime I eat chicken balls and rice, I feel the fork is better. How can they stand to eat such sweet food everyday?
I know this is probably a troll, but I can't resist...
It sounds like you're eating American Chinese food (or Canadian Chinese food, or some other non-Chinese Chinese food). Most Chinese food isn't sweet. Most of it also doesn't consist of tiny scraps of meat engulfed in thick batter, dripping with day-glo red sauce. The stuff you're eating was developed for Westerners with a sweet tooth. The same is true about fortune cookies, incidentally.
Most real Chinese food is easier to eat with chopsticks than a fork once you know how to use chopsticks. For example, most stir-fried meals served with steamed rice. (fried rice is a pain to eat with chopsticks -- use a spoon for that)
And of course nobody would actually pay money to support free software, either, because there is a huge nebulous "them" out there writing it for free, and somebody else is paying for the servers and bandwidth charges.
Your analogy is off. People do pay for support, because it helps them personally. Imagine if RedHat changed their business model to "We'll provide support to everyone for free, provided 70% of the people who download RedHat Linux pay for it." That would be a closer parallel.
H1-B workers are forced to leave and have unusually draconian limitations on becoming naturalized citizens; they often slip off the radar to stay in the USA with newformed families beyond their officially sanctioned stay. [emphasis mine]
I've never heard of this. Do you actually have any evidence to back that up, or are you just making that up? Remember that most H1-B workers are making $60K or more. I'd imagine that it would be pretty hard to make that kind of money "off the radar". From what I've heard, most H1-B workers who haven't managed to get a greencard usually go to Canada, or sometimes Europe.
DSL can be great, provided your connection to your CO is adequate (short, and copper, basically). After that, the number one factor that determines the reliability is the provider. In my experience, Pacific Bell sucks ass.
I've had so many problems with Pac-Bell DSL that it isn't funny anymore. They've lost my records twice, resulting in a total disconnection of my service. They also misclassified my connection as "Enhanced DSL", and tried to charge me twice the original price. If you call their tech support, 90% of the time you get put on hold for 15 minues, then you're sent to a voice-mailbox due to the "unusually high delay". If you leave a message, they won't call you back. If you do manage to get through to someone, they'll almost definitely transfer you to someone else, and place you on hold for 10-20 minutes. Most of their support reps are also complete idiots.
The last straw for me was when they (finally) sent me the CD (when they finally got around to switching bme to Basic DSL, which is what I signed up for in the first place). The CD arrived folded in half. I also noticed that Pac-bell Internet has started charging me for dialup.
The best part of this whole thing was when a guy from Pac-Bell DSL marketing actually told me on the phone "anything involving DSL is a nightmare". Thanks.
NT4's tab completion sucks though. It replaces the full-path, rather than just completing what you typed. It's much better to just get MKS Toolkit, so you can use a real shell...
(Cygwin isn't bad, but the fact that it uses those pseudo-POSIX file names makes it totally incompatible with all non cygwin applications.)
I have mixed feelings about this statement. From my personal experience, the talent is passing, but the communications skills suck so bad it's not worth it. Just my 2 bits.
I feel compelled to point out that English is the native language for some of the people working on H1B's... myself included.
I think the restrictions the INS puts on "aliens" are rather odd. A lot of these restrictions actually hurt the American economy and are harmful to American workers. It seems that the INS creates these restrictions not to help Americans, but rather to hurt non-Americans, even if it means hurting Americans at the same time. For example, the difficulty in transferring to another job with an H1B (and the impossibility of it, if you're trying to get a greencard) makes American companies prefer H1B workers over US citizens, since they know those workers will work longer hours in the hopes that they won't get fired and that their employer will sponsor a greencard for them. This means less jobs for Americans, and lower pay. If the transfer restrictions were lifted, I guarantee you that the H1B quotas wouldn't even be reached, because American companies would then prefer American workers over H1B's (since they wouldn't have to pay the legal costs).
This'll probably scare most xenophobic "anti-globalization" Americans, but I tend to feel that anyone should be allowed to work in any country they want, provided they pay the taxes in that country. (likewise, if you pay the taxes, you should be entitled to the social benefits that are paid for by those taxes) Anything else smacks of the sort of "noble blood" ideologies that democracy should've eliminated.
Clearly, there are some copyright issues involved with the release of an RFC -- I'm assuming that since RFC's get copied so freely, there is some type of license that allows copying under certain circumstances. But I am intrigued by the idea that in addition to copyright issues, there is some type of patent issue involved.
I'm pretty sure that all publications count as prior art, even if the author/publisher is the one applying for the patent. At least, that's the way it is in most countries. Apparently it wasn't always like this in the US though... I've heard that RSA was published before it was patented.
Maybe leave it in the cradle and you call into your desktop? Nope, because leaving your Palm in the cradle automatically leaves the serial port open which wastes batteries.
That's true for the Palm III and earlier, but the opposite is true for the Palm V series. They actually charge while on the cradle. I think the m100 is the same in this respect. (I have no idea about the Palm VII.)
Slashdot Mirror
So everybody is happy. What's your complaint, then?
I guess my first complaint is that you completely ignore the point. The foreign workers aren't happy, and the American workers aren't happy. Worst of all, the American workers blame the foreigners for "stealing their jobs".
Proof, please. Just because you believe that this is possibly true does not make it so, and handwaving isn't going to help.
I've had first-hand experience. If you really want proof for yourself, go work in any of top-10 the companies listed here, and see what I'm talking about.
Of course, if that's too difficult, you could just try and use some common sense. H1B workers don't want to have to leave. Even if their home country isn't horrible, simply having to uproot your life and move everything (again) is a significant burden. So these foreign workers really don't want to be forced to leave. Now couple that with the fact that the employer has complete control over whether the worker is allowed to stay in the US. If the worker is fired, they've got 10 days to leave the US. Imagine trying to move to another country in 10 days. Of course these people are going to work really hard to make sure they don't get fired. Even if the the company doesn't treat them fairly, they'll still grin and bear it.
Now given that, which kind of employee do you think most high-tech companies would rather have: someone who they can pay less, treat badly, and still squeeze 90 hours/week out of, without any significant risk that they'll leave, or an American who will work a normal amount of hours, demand raises, and leave for a competitor if you don't give them what they want?
Wonderful. You "guarantee". And what would you do if your prediction fails?
I'm not saying to remove the quota. Keep it. The worst that would happen is that H1B workers would no longer be indentured servants. Oh, I guess that's just too horrible. But if you actually think through the motivations of the companies, and look at the restrictions placed on foreign workers, you'll see that the current system is set up to not only hurt foreign workers, but also American workers as well.
High-tech companies (at least ones with some sense) hire people they need. Whether the person is an American or an H1B holder is a relatively minor issue. Do you really think that the whole world has less talent to offer than just the United States of America?
My point is that is isn't a minor issue for these companies. As it stands, there is a significant benefit to hiring H1B workers. If the changes I propose were made, then the balance would shift the other way. There would be a benefit to hiring Americans, because the company wouldn't have to pay for the legal work required to get a visa. Right now, that legal work is insignificant compared to the gains of having employees who will work exceedingly long hours, and won't leave unless you fire them.
I define "completely open" as anybody who wants to can come in and live (and work) here for as long as he wants.
So tell me, what would be wrong with that provided these people paid taxes (which they do)?
Er.. weren't you just saying that without artificial incentives the high-tech companies will just hire American workers instead of these damned foreigners? Please unconfuse yourself.
What I'm talking about is the fact that immigrant workers are getting more and more pissed off at the INS. I wouldn't be too surprised if in a few years all of the good high tech workers leave for Canada instead. When the supply of indentured servants dries up, the American high tech companies will either have to leave or do their development outside of the US.
If you're a high-tech worker, becoming a permanent resident of Canada (Canadian equivalent of getting a greencard) is extremely easy. From what I've heard, you can actually complete the process in a couple of months. Canada isn't nearly as xenophobic or draconian as the US...
First of all, you can change jobs provided you can persuade your new company to get you an H1B.
Yes, and then you only have to wait 3 or 4 months... if you're lucky.
Second, most people I know who work on H1Bs have an understanding with the company that after a couple of years, the company will sponsor that person for a green card.
Anyone with an H1B who wants to get a greencard better start the application process earlier than "after a couple of years". The greencard process typically takes 4-5 years. H1Bs only last 3 years, and you can only get one renewal, hence you've only got 6 years.
But of course most companies are more than happy to sponsor a greencard, because your application will be cancelled if you leave the company. Given the time constraints, you can't very easily apply for a greencard at another company, so you're pretty much stuck.
There are plenty of places where you work 9-to-5 (e.g. most government jobs, by the way).
I'm fairly certain that non-US citizens can't get jobs in the US government.
You are making a bargain: your time for money. If you don't like the terms, do not agree to the bargain.
I think his complaint had to do with the fact that H1B workers typically work longer hours for equal or even lower pay than American workers. Of course, any thinking American would be angry about this as well. After all, if companies can get immigrants to work harder for less money than Americans, there's a pretty strong incentive for these companies to hire immgrants rather than Americans, isn't there?
Looking out for your own interests, wouldn't it be better if there weren't any artificial advantages to hiring non-American workers? In particular, shouldn't American companies be forced to pay them the same wages, and shouldn't they (the foreign workers) be able to change jobs as easily as Americans? If this isn't the case (and it isn't), you end up with American companies preferring foreigners, because they're cheaper, do more work, and they're effectively "locked in" for the term of their visa. It's no wonder that high-tech companies would rather hire foreigners than Americans who only work 40 hours/week, demand raises, and leave if they don't get what they want...
If H1B workers and greencard applicants could switch jobs anywhere near as easily as American workers, I guarantee that the H1B quotas wouldn't even be reached the following year. High tech companies would start hiring Americans first, and only hiring H1B workers when they needed to. Is't that the way it should be?
Well, generally speaking, if you are not an American you cannot come live here at all. That is normal and it is as it should be. If you don't think so, try thinking through the consequences of allowing completely open immigration.
I'm not sure how you define "completely open". I certainly think immigration in the US coul be a lot more open than it is, and be better for Americans and "aliens" alike.
Besides, what have you done that makes you deserve special treatment? You were born here? Who cares? You are aware that alien workers (the INS term) pay taxes and social security, right?
Besides, isn't it strange: if US sucks so much, why so many people are willing to spend great effort and accept huge risks for a chance of living here?
Don't worry, the INS's policies are making the environment hostile enough that soon all of the high-tech companies will leave, or just hire people to do development overseas. Won't that be great for the American economy...
You're right, I should've removed alcohol from that list.
Actually, I'd rather have a huge load of Meccano - Erector to Americans.
I had both Meccano and Erector sets when I was a kid. They were quite different. For example, the "beams" in the Meccano set were completely flat, like they were stamped out of sheet metal, and were painted (usually dark blue or light yellow). The "beams" in the Erector set weren't painted, nor were they flat. The edges were bent and the screw holes were dented in for counter-sunk screws. The screws in the Erector set had a much larger diameter and coarser thread than those in the Meccano set, and the spacing between the screw holes was different.
It's true... stay off the caffiene, ritalin, prozak, and alcohol. They're highly addictive, mind altering drugs with some pretty nasty side effects. Only losers need that crap.
Actually, ritalin, prozac and alcohol aren't normally addictive. For the above, and other drugs, you probably shouldn't take them unless you've got a medical reason.
RTFA. He's talking about level editors, etc. Not games themeselves.
Everytime I eat chicken balls and rice, I feel the fork is better. How can they stand to eat such sweet food everyday?
I know this is probably a troll, but I can't resist...
It sounds like you're eating American Chinese food (or Canadian Chinese food, or some other non-Chinese Chinese food). Most Chinese food isn't sweet. Most of it also doesn't consist of tiny scraps of meat engulfed in thick batter, dripping with day-glo red sauce. The stuff you're eating was developed for Westerners with a sweet tooth. The same is true about fortune cookies, incidentally.
Most real Chinese food is easier to eat with chopsticks than a fork once you know how to use chopsticks. For example, most stir-fried meals served with steamed rice. (fried rice is a pain to eat with chopsticks -- use a spoon for that)
It looks like a Slash bug. Slash seems to insert spaces in really long URLs. I've run into that myself in the past.
And of course nobody would actually pay money to support free software, either, because there is a huge nebulous "them" out there writing it for free, and somebody else is paying for the servers and bandwidth charges.
Your analogy is off. People do pay for support, because it helps them personally. Imagine if RedHat changed their business model to "We'll provide support to everyone for free, provided 70% of the people who download RedHat Linux pay for it." That would be a closer parallel.
I was talking in terms of SF Bay Area dollars. $60K here is about the same as $45K anywhere else... ;-)
DSL can be great, provided your connection to your CO is adequate (short, and copper, basically). After that, the number one factor that determines the reliability is the provider. In my experience, Pacific Bell sucks ass.
I've had so many problems with Pac-Bell DSL that it isn't funny anymore. They've lost my records twice, resulting in a total disconnection of my service. They also misclassified my connection as "Enhanced DSL", and tried to charge me twice the original price. If you call their tech support, 90% of the time you get put on hold for 15 minues, then you're sent to a voice-mailbox due to the "unusually high delay". If you leave a message, they won't call you back. If you do manage to get through to someone, they'll almost definitely transfer you to someone else, and place you on hold for 10-20 minutes. Most of their support reps are also complete idiots.
The last straw for me was when they (finally) sent me the CD (when they finally got around to switching bme to Basic DSL, which is what I signed up for in the first place). The CD arrived folded in half. I also noticed that Pac-bell Internet has started charging me for dialup.
The best part of this whole thing was when a guy from Pac-Bell DSL marketing actually told me on the phone "anything involving DSL is a nightmare". Thanks.
...unless London has moved recently...
Actually, there is more than one place named "London". However, Elstree Film Studios are in the UK...
Do "shortcuts" in Win2K actually work as symlinks from the command line, or are they still those stupid ".lnk" files that are useful only to Explorer?
NT4's tab completion sucks though. It replaces the full-path, rather than just completing what you typed. It's much better to just get MKS Toolkit, so you can use a real shell...
(Cygwin isn't bad, but the fact that it uses those pseudo-POSIX file names makes it totally incompatible with all non cygwin applications.)
Anyone know what this one is based on?
Looks like episode 117 of Forever Knight...
Most chocolate in America is wose than, well, just about anywhere else.
I gotta say though, at least they don't have deep fried Mars bars like you Brits...
I have mixed feelings about this statement. From my personal experience, the talent is passing, but the communications skills suck so bad it's not worth it. Just my 2 bits.
I feel compelled to point out that English is the native language for some of the people working on H1B's... myself included.
I think the restrictions the INS puts on "aliens" are rather odd. A lot of these restrictions actually hurt the American economy and are harmful to American workers. It seems that the INS creates these restrictions not to help Americans, but rather to hurt non-Americans, even if it means hurting Americans at the same time. For example, the difficulty in transferring to another job with an H1B (and the impossibility of it, if you're trying to get a greencard) makes American companies prefer H1B workers over US citizens, since they know those workers will work longer hours in the hopes that they won't get fired and that their employer will sponsor a greencard for them. This means less jobs for Americans, and lower pay. If the transfer restrictions were lifted, I guarantee you that the H1B quotas wouldn't even be reached, because American companies would then prefer American workers over H1B's (since they wouldn't have to pay the legal costs).
This'll probably scare most xenophobic "anti-globalization" Americans, but I tend to feel that anyone should be allowed to work in any country they want, provided they pay the taxes in that country. (likewise, if you pay the taxes, you should be entitled to the social benefits that are paid for by those taxes) Anything else smacks of the sort of "noble blood" ideologies that democracy should've eliminated.
Clearly, there are some copyright issues involved with the release of an RFC -- I'm assuming that since RFC's get copied so freely, there is some type of license that allows copying under certain circumstances. But I am intrigued by the idea that in addition to copyright issues, there is some type of patent issue involved.
I'm pretty sure that all publications count as prior art, even if the author/publisher is the one applying for the patent. At least, that's the way it is in most countries. Apparently it wasn't always like this in the US though... I've heard that RSA was published before it was patented.
You forgot:
"Earthlings go home!"
Arthur C. Clarke wrote the first sci-fi book with one in that I know of (forgotten name but set in (Sri Lanka)
Fountains of Paradise (please forgive the Amazon link)
and we now know that Google is polite and obeys spiders.txt
That's robots.txt.
The first time I heard about it, they called it "http://216.150.27.141/".
Maybe leave it in the cradle and you call into your desktop? Nope, because leaving your Palm in the cradle automatically leaves the serial port open which wastes batteries.
That's true for the Palm III and earlier, but the opposite is true for the Palm V series. They actually charge while on the cradle. I think the m100 is the same in this respect. (I have no idea about the Palm VII.)