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Senate Pushes H1-B Visa Bill
Attack Pirate writes: "The Washington Post is reporting that Republicans in the Senate are pushing major expansion of guest worker programmer bill. The Democrats are trying to 'poison pill' the bill by giving limited rights to Hispanics who have been in the country for decades. It says Clinton might veto the bill, but he said that in 1998 but let it pass just before a fundraising trip to Silicon Valley."
I meant that I am an immigrant from my white
background. Native Americans have been here
for thousands of years, much longer than any
whites.
Anyhow I fail to understand your rant since
my bitching was not about immigration in general
but about this particular immigration bill which
is nothing but a ploy from the big companies to
control the labor market. There is no problem
in finding good technical people but problems
in getting good cheap technical people.
I wouldn't mind even seeing more technical
immigrants coming if they would go thru the
same path as everyone else and their stay not
limited in time. If they wish to stay here they
should be entitled to. If an employer decides that
he doesn't want the employee or if the employee
realizes that he is getting the shaft he
should be entitled to seek other employement
without have to go thru the whole immigration
process. That way no company could control the
life of a technical immigrant, this would
help us keep the gains that we've made over
the years in the job market.
Having worked with H1B visa holders in a previous job, I think the answer to your questions are that both are true. In this job, these workers were consultants and made a good rate (certainly the going rate for the area). Was the company saving money by hiring these H1B consultants? No, but they needed workers and they fit the bill.
On the other hand, I have read about companies who exploit these workers by not paying them market rates, making them work hard hours with no compensation, and so on. This tactic works as the H1B workers cannot easily change jobs, and therefore are stuck with the bad managers.
My opinion is that there is a little of both going on. There is a shortage of certain skilled positions, and if a foreign worker has those skills they will be snapped up. There is also the very human tendency to take advantage of workers who have far less power to do anything about it. No doubt both situations are in the marketplace, and the pressure for more H1B workers comes from both camps.
________________
________________
Private Essayist
It's an election year. Who wants to let the other party claim credit for *anything* in an election year?
Of course, they're every two years o'er here for those House folks and a third of the Senate every time as well. So in an off-year, they can busy themselves raising money for the next election year...
</cynic>
Only the dead have seen the end of war.
The company I'm with isn't really interested in hiring migrants anymore (as developers) because their experiences in the past hit on people with very poor english skills.
People are just people.... some are good, some are bad - you have to take them all individually.
... and today's pet project has
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Why don't we have a decent crop of American candidates for these jobs? Could it be that American corporations are expecting someone else to support the schools and perform the on-the-job training?
- What happens when the H-1B entrants hit age 40 or so and their skills aren't quite up to date? Do they get dumped as unemployable and a new crop of worker bees imported?
- Will this be an excuse for tech firms to cut wages and employment heavily in the next downturn (like the last one), which will cause the smart people to make career choices outside the tech sphere and exacerbating (hell, creating) the problem that Silicon Valley allegedly needs solved?
- Will this be an excuse to tolerate crappy schools, illiterate teachers and "zero questioning of authority" administrations in the USA, because "we can always hire talent from (Mumbai, Beijing, St. Petersburg)?
Just a few questions that ought to be answered before expanding, or even extending, the H1 visa program. As far as I'm concerned the whole thing should be cancelled immediately, no new ones, no renewals, start learning to train local talent or give up and die because the alternative is to have a nation of worker-rejects and that's what a nation of rejects is going to do.--
Build a man a fire, and he's warm for a day.
Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once... the bitch.
This type of rider is actually less sinister than riders that both parties want passed, but which the public or interested parties might find sinister or disgusting. Ane example was the "Work for Hire" rider (to some satellite bill) which for a time took away the rights of American musicians to their own music.
Mainstream American politicians aren't interested in debating the merits of their issues, and would rather just get their way all the time without a debate. Americans put up with it, for reasons I don't understand.All the creatures will die, And all the things will be broken. That's the law of samurai. (Jubai, 1605)
Believe me, the last thing that you want is an efficient Congress. It would be the death of us all if every "good idea" on Capitol Hill was made into law.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
Wrong on all, obviously you do not work in high tech or with H1B's. The H1B's from India I work with have been in the US for many years, have hold different titles, worked for different companies, and they own stock. They like Datek, too. Their salary before taxes is around $80,000 a year. It's not so bad to be an H1B.
Now take this for what it's worth but here is my analysis of the problem at hand.
When I last looked at physics as a career path (I did indeed consider it) the main problem was that although it did pay well the DoD basically had cut down on much of it's funding and thus had to release a bunch of people who had jobs. Take into account the industries that were tied to defense and you get a whole lot. (this was in about 97-98 or so).
Well so suppose you get a bunch of physics experts (Russia immediately springs to mind thanks to their really, really great ecconomy) comming aboad. Well if they are indeed smarter than you what is to say that they suddently have your job.
Ok what then? Well thanks to the small market you are whistling Dixie there.
That is ultimately the point. There are in fact a finite quantity of jobs and until all of our jobless/homeless/poor are filled I think that it's ethically unfair to hire a bunch of much smarter people to work in our jobs.
Respond to s
Buzzword Bingo isn't the REAL reason, it's the cover-up reason, for what seems like age-discrimination, when it's really lifestyle-discrimination.
Damn these 30+-ers for getting married and having kids and refusing to put in 100+ hr weeks!
Soylent Green is people!
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
"There's also a shortage of common sense on software companies' HR departments. They don't seem to have a clue as to hiring "
What has the HR department got to do with it? They shouldn't get a say (other than perhaps on whether the company can afford the demands.) At my last job, it was us, the software engineers that made the choices. We were so desparate that we would talk to anybody who sent us their resume. However, most people failed the technical interview.
They're not doing what it takes?
What do you mean by that? Spending a week of evenings reading "how to program C# in 30 days" instead of sitting down to a family dinner, walking the dog, screwing his wife, reading Dr. Seuss to the kids, going rollerblading, building a patio deck, working on that '69 Camaro, peering into the night-sky with a telescope trying to locate the next planet-killer. . .
People need balanced lives to remain human. Otherwise, they become mindless corporate slaves.
Soylent Green is people!
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
You are aware that he has been found innocent of all charges, aren't you?
I've followed this case with keen interest. All charges have been dropped, but one. Dropped charges are not quite the same as innocent, Mr. Johnnie-Cochran-Wannabe. Mr. Lee, at the very least has been very reckless.
No, thought not.
You thought - NOT
--
Chief Frog Inspector
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
You are *always* going to have someone better than you or at least *as good* as you. There is no best in a world of 6,000,000,000+ people.
Respond to s
Company tries to find programmer to work for a specified wage (no one in the US will work for that low of a wage, lots of hours, crappy benefits, etc)
Yes, this applies to US and non-US workers.
Company advertizes job in some national publications (the more obscure and unread the better) and requires so many qualifications that an average programmer would not even bother for what salary is being offered.
Great, except you neglected to mention (or didn't realise) that the INS reviews the adverising the company does against the typical requirements for that position in your company and makes a determination of whether the advertisement is reasonable or not. Your resume is included with the application, along with previous employment history, university transcripts etc. It's possible, however illegal, to fake this stuff to meet some sort of exhorbitant requirements, but it's taking a big risk from the company's point of view, since they're also breaking the law by doing this.
While I am not on an H-1B, I am a visa worker, and I am without a doubt being paid higher than most of my US co-workers in the same position. I suppose I'm an exception though? So are the other H-1B workers in my department who are being paid within a few percent of their US counterparts.
Miraculously no one else applies for the job and the non-US person is hired (oh, those qualifications listed in the Ad are re-evaluated and 80% of them are dropped)
Hmmmm... all legal/
Bzzzt! Wrong. Fortunately, this is not legal.
I'm not saying that there aren't any companies out there violating immigration laws on this and paying ridiculously low salaries. Like anywhere there are going to be a few who break the rules. Claiming that the norm is for companies to use H-1B workers as slaves is simply untrue.
If companies just want cheap labour, why would they bother bringing employees over on H-1Bs, it costs tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees per worker. If companies really wanted dirt cheap labour, they'd hire employees to work remotely from India and Rumania. Either way, if (as you seem to imply) there is no IT worker shortage, an American will be out of a job, however, from a corporate point of view, keeping the worker in India is cheaper.
This does happen in many cases - when companies want cheap labour. However, H-1Bs are not hired because they're cheaper (they're more expensive) they're hired because there aren't enough Americans to fill the jobs.
We're living in a global economy, get used to it. The only reason to be afraid of competition is if you suck at what you do.
M'kay. Which one of you lugnuts is running for office? Hemos? Katz?
--
Chief Frog Inspector
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
We have plenty of labor in the United States and we don't really need anymore
Go have a look at the unemployment statistics. Unemployment is so horribly low at the moment there isn't any labor. Christ, my HR department is having trouble filling two positions described in my request as "Button pusher. Alternatly push two buttons. Make coffee, warm his/her chair. Full-time. No technical skill, literacy or personal hygeine required. No knowledge of Word, Office, Lotus, Panagon or any other software req'd. I'd ask for a shaved chimp, but I don't think the chimp will make me coffee.", and they're offering $12.70/hour!!
.sig: Now legally binding!
The really bad thing is not that we're bringing over all these guys from overseas, but that we're sending them back after giving them up to six years of paid training in how we do business.
Right now these workers are slave labor for the US firms who pay to bring them over here. But in the future they may very well become these firm's main competition.
I can't think of any reason why we should subsidize the creation of industry in foreign countries that my one day threaten the hegemony that the United States currently enjoys. It is this kind of short sightedness on the part of business and government that can cost this nation its empire.
I have no problem with bringing intelligent skilled workers into this country from other places. But once we have them here we should encourage them to stay. Here anything they produce benefits our economy and makes us an even greater world power than we already are. Not to mention improving the quality of our gene pool, which in the long run is even more important.
Lee Reynolds
Muslim community leaders warn of backlash from tomorrow morning's terrorist attack.
Some of the limitations of a H1B Visa worker are:
Can only hold a specific job title
Can not be an owner of company stock
Only valid to work for 1 company
Only good for specified time (4 years?)
Essentially, the situation that this creates is an employee that can not advance, can not change jobs, and constantly has the threat of deportation looming over them.
Working conditions will never improve for domestic IT workers as long as companies can bring in overseas talent and expect them to work 24 X 7 for peanuts.... I fully support legal immigration and welcome all new comers to our country, however, this is just a way for companies to get IT workers, but not have to treat them like US citizens....
That'd be a step up; currently they take Will Work For Food people off the street, give them a cheese burger and a couple of hours of training and put 'em on the phones.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
I think it foolish to think that anyone who actually wants to have a fair chance wants to create an even harder set of circumstances for anyone to deal with.
With more and more people in the pool your efforts become less and less important.
If someone wants a job they look for one in their own country. Also I doubt that some place oh like China would exactly allow me to immigrate to their country.
And there is the possibility that you may not even *get* a paycheck let alone a devalued one.
A job in the US without being a citizen is not a right at all.
Respond to s
This is so typical of the politicians in the US today. Bargaining games to determine the future of the workforce in this country. The republican congress will not dare put the Government into a freeze, so Clinton will get to pass whatever he wants that is attached to the budget.
This is almost as silly as releasing the freaking oil reserve. That was clearly an attempt to bribe the American public to vote democratic. Look at the situation for what it is:
1) The oil reserves are filled by tax monies
2) The release of the oil reserves drops oil prices for the US public
In other words, this was a direct subsidy to those people who the most oil in this country. This provides a definite disincentive to conserving fossil fuels and protecting the environment (a key Democratic position).
I am hoping that some day soon, we get some of these power hungry bastards out of office. And put someone who doesn't think it is a great idea for everyone's money to pass through a bloated bureacracy before being redistributed by that bureacracy to the best lobbyists.
Although I don't think Harry Browne is presedential material, the Libertarian party will likely get my vote this year.
Yes, I know there is off-topic rambling in here, maybe it contains a bit of truth.
If it were true that technical work could be accomplished just as easily from anywhere in the world, or even anywhere in the US, then you'd expect San Francisco and Silicon Valley's housing prices to be about the same. Instead, it's the hottest real estate market in the country. Clearly, there is some value to being there if you want to work in high tech. If it were the case that INS could process H1B applications in a timely way so that people could actually move from job to job when companies fold or lay them off, without having to move their families and leave behind their homes and friends to return to another country, and if it were the case that INS could actually process green card applications (H1B is a dual-status visa, it is the first step towards a green card) in a timely way, then perhaps there wouldn't be so many people waiting for many years to get their green cards and there wouldn't be such a push on the number of H1B applications. But INS is so underfunded that green cards now take many years to be approved. Noone is "whining now that their time is up". It's about attempting to gain some control over your life.
The Democrats are trying to "poison pill" the bill
Does this strike anyone else as a bloody stupid way to run a country? The logical implication is that if any unpopular bill gets through, it will be far worse for those who were against it than when it was first proposed.
True. There are some real jerks here, as everywhere.
But more likely it has to do with the fact that the people hiring perceive that US programmers won't work 60-80 hours a weeks; and many US workers don't have the advantages of being represented by a hiring agency that gets 30% of the cut.
I understand that you are a skilled worker who is offering much to this country. Please understand that citizens of this country, having worked to establish their standard of living and a reasonable work week, are reasonably frustrated by employers who pass them up for workers who are... simply cheaper, both in overall salary and cost per hour.
Finally -- it bears saying -- it is not accurate to claim that the US makes you pay H1-B holders as much as US workers. I direct hiring at my company, and the two agencies we know provide programmers at 80% of what we would pay for US workers. Our founder came to the US on a H1-B, and was simply classified as a lower-pay worker than the duties he was expected to perform. H1-Bs provide an enormous economic advantage and flexibility to companies. There is little difference, in fact, with the issue of allowing agricultural workers that the Democrats have attached. The core is admitting workers who will reduce costs.
This is a situation which is hard to swallow, given that the agencies we use train programmers in 6 months, and that their is no effort to provide US workers with similar training. And you might come to think of it quite differently, once you become a citizen of this country, wish to spend some time with family, friends or children, and find that the economics of the situation suddenly make you much less attractive than a foreign worker.
Are you insane? I mean that in the good sense, of course.
Graham
Well, let's look at the ultimate consequence - going out of business. I don't see anyone going out of business because they can't hire people for their projects. I do see them going out of business because they spend half of their money of SuperBowl advertisements.
I also see companies like Merrill Lynch who hire tons of H1B visa folks laying off people and paying $10-15/hr less than market rate while posting record profits. It's hard to believe they can't afford to pay people, considering their entire business depends on bits flying around. Why? Well, I guess they can get people from Bangalore a lot cheaper. It *is* capitalism - there's always somebody who will work cheap if it's better than they currently have, you can't blame them. But I still can't help thinking it's a pretty short-sighted personnel strategy.
The revolution will NOT be televised.
The Democrats are trying to 'poison pill' the bill by giving limited rights to Hispanics who have been in the country for decades.
Quoth the Washington Post Article:
But Republican leaders blocked a Democratic move to include provisions aimed at easing restrictions on Hispanic immigration, and Democrats responded by demanding that the provisions be included in a major spending bill.
...
The Democratic-drafted Latino and Immigrant Fairness Act would expand amnesty for immigrants who live illegally in this country to cover those who have been here since 1986, including many who were excluded from an earlier amnesty law because of bureaucratic delays. It would also make it easier for some immigrants, including Central Americans and Haitians, to obtain permanent residency and allow holders of expired visas to apply for legal residency without returning to their countries of origin.
Call me daft, but the Slashdot blurb seems to have gotten the politics of this backwards. Completely backwards. I'd renew my plea for editorial responsibility, but something tells me it would fall on deaf ears...
Obliteracy: Words with explosions
Read it. Have a go at "Three Concepts of Liberty" by Isaiah Berlin, for a throughgoing kicking of Rousseau.
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Just out of curiousity, what kind of technical questions?
I mean, could you give an example?
All the creatures will die, And all the things will be broken. That's the law of samurai. (Jubai, 1605)
Tech job fairs become free-for-alls with hiring representatives using bear traps, nets and stun guns to get replacements
ever get the feeling that there are more head-hunters than programmers? Damn, three years ago when my company closed it's office, I was getting calls from headhunters two days BEFORE the closure was announced internally. Must've been some damn good tea-leaves.
I say, let them EARN their bounties.
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These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
until we're making as much as doctors, lawyers, automechanics, and other very highly sought-after providers of technical services, we ARE a poor downtrodden class.
Soylent Green is people!
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
Oh, so that's why there are all those HR people who are looking for just one reason to throw your resume in the trash. It's not because they want to get through the pile as fast as possible so they can punch out and play golf, it's so they can say they "tried" to find a citizen to fill the position, then whine for an H1-B!
--
"Open source is good." - Steve Jobs
"Open source is evil." - Microsoft
I'm in my 30's and I've never seen "age discrimination" at any place I've worked.
There's a lot of useless old fucks that think they should get a fat paycheck just for showing up every week, even though they haven't learned anything new in five years. There's also gray-haired types that have kept their skills current and are in high demand everywhere they go. If you're not spending at least an hour a day keeping up with new technology, you WILL find yourself obsolete and unemployed one day, sooner than you think, and it will be no one's fault but your own.
I think your "age discrimination", Mr. Coward, is just the baby boomer's natural tendency to point a finger and whine loudly whenever they don't get everything they want. It must be discrimination, since it certainly couldn't be your own fault, could it?
Before they start handing out more H1Bs, maybe they should do something about the enormous backlog of Chinese and Indians who've had their applications approved but cannot get green cards -- they are stuck in limbo waiting for the backlog to clear out.
More H1Bs isn't good for anyone besides big money lobbyists. It doesn't help citizens because it provides the corporations with either a disposable workforce and possibly provides the country with illegal immigrants.
It doesn't help the would-be immigrants because it lowers their chances of ever acquiring green cards.
One major problem is turnover. Companies spend so much time filling their needs after they appear, rather than planning ahead. So they go through ooodles of interviews while the position is unfilled, and complain about a personnel shortage. Not really a shortage, just poor management.
This is a symptom of an even worse problem. Who knows a manager who wouldn't give a promotion because you were 'irreplacable where you were', even hiring newbies above you? You are a lot harder to replace when you jump ship and aren't there to train your replacement.
Or managers who won't give a 5% raise to keep you at the salary average-- but pay 20% more to pull in someone new? The manager's view: you already negotiated your salary, he can often use social engineering to keep you around at the lower salary. The reality: such ill will usually sends people packing.
I grew up in Québec where going to university
is considered a right not a luxury. This is true
for many countries where good tech people are
imported from. There is usually too many highly
educated people over there for the number
of jobs available.
Here in the US you have to spend a fortune to get
a good education thus the lower numbers of highly
educated people. I don't know how I will be able
to afford to pay for a good university education
for my son and I'm an Engineer.
The biggest problem of shortage in the US has
a lot more to the fact that companies refuse
to give good wages according to the supply and
demand. They pump money into the congressmen
campaigns in order to get temporary employees.
I have nothing against immigration being part
immigrant myself (thru my white blood) but
I think immigrant workers should be given the
opportunity to stay here after their contract.
This is not likely to happen considering that
the companies wouldn't have as good a control
on them as they do now. Just the fear of being
expelled put a lot of people in line, all they
need to get screwed with immigration is a bad
word from the boss.
This bill pushed by congress is just a plot to
put us in the poor house. You have to remember
that when an ad says between 2 to 5 years of
experience they mean it litterally.
Fringe benifits tend to be nonexistant for
temporary workers and unpaid overtime is easier
to impose.
If the market becomes flooded with temporary
qualified people we will have to accept lower
wages or end up on welfare and eventually
working at McDonald or Radio Shack.
once, many years ago, when I first started in this industry, I was an art-school dropout, who had hacked around cp/m and dos systems a bit, and my company was desperate for anyone to do tech support. They hired me, trained me, and here I am today. I think I did well. During my training, there were two other candidates that were hired. One guy, with a similar background to me (whom I helped get the job - he's doing promo work at trade shows now), and another guy, who had a PhD in computer science from University of Illinois (Champaign). The idiot couldn't even install a network card, and didn't understand SCSI termination when the trainer explained it to him, and when I showed it to him. He quit two days into the training.
Soylent Green is people!
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
...Taco Bell!
Hey, if that damn Chihuahua dog can get a job working as an actor, I should be able to get an H-1 Visa in order to do some decent programming work.
Like coding in Visual Basic, installing Windows ME, trying to run Windows 2k on a PC in less than 6 hours...
Hmm. On second thought... I think I'll stay in Mexico for a few more years...
Tongue-tied and twisted, just an earth-bound misfit, I
Learning to fly, Pink Floyd.
It's actually hard to tell if you're being facetious. We're a few bodies short and that seems like a workable solution. Thanks (but don't expect a cheque)
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Chief Frog Inspector
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
I've posted on this before.
I challenge anyone to take a reasonable look at the job listings for C/C++ programmers in any region of the country, and what will you see? A big drop in ads over the last several years.
I'm not talking about sys admins, I've talking about raw software here, folks.
Now, add that my bro works for a large aerospace company that "pads" their website with (literally) 100's of jobs, engineering jobs, that go unfilled. They get resumes, but they never interview or hire, just send a card. Why? So they can extend project milestones, put pressure on the gov for H1B, and move a number of R&D jobs overseas.
The whole H1B thing has been a scam from the beginning -- goal 1: lower/stabilize programmer wages. Goal 2: brain drain competitive countries.
Disgusting.
Treatment, not tyranny. End the drug war and free our American POWs.
See my user info for links.
The first generation is coming to the end of their six year terms and have to "disappear" for a year until they can apply again. Its difficult and expensive to convert H-1B to permanent green card. So many companies, especially the ones too cheap to do the paperwork, are starting to get new H-1Bs to replace old ones. Some the old ones are going home, some to Canada if they are from Commonwealth (curry) countries, and many hiding out in the shadow economy, long used by day laborers.
What an immigration screw-up by all parties involved.
There are states which have Constitutional restrictions on bills so that they must all deal with the subject matter of the title. This eliminates unrelated riders. The USA needs this on a national level.
--
Build a man a fire, and he's warm for a day.
Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once... the bitch.
Why hasn't anyone pointed out that giving special rights to "hispanics" is majorly discriminatory?
If they're going to put something in like that, they should put in rights for immigrants in general.
I don't understand two things:
1. US politicians (and citizens in general) should be gung-ho about influx of H1 workers. They pay tons in taxes (as they are by definition "educated" and "qualified"), but offer no liabilities as far as Social Security, Medicare, unemployment benefits, etc. go.
2. The large US companies seem to be the most vocal about H1 visas. The same companies (due to the economies of scale) would have minimal trouble in setting up local offices and hiring people in their home countries - no waiting for INS, and frequently more lenient labor laws.
My personal guess is that the companies know that if they can pluck somebody out of their normal habitat and place them in some Bumfsck, USA - where even the natives have trouble finding a social life amidst suburban desert - these H1's will have nothing else to do (for some time at least) but work overtime.
So, what's going on with all these Internet and Globalization thingies? Do you know that it costs now less to call, say, Australia than another town in you home state?
I am being facetious, though I actually suggested it at IBM when I was doing OS/2 tech support some time back. The suggestion didn't go over any better than my suggestion that we should put Death Lasers on our satellites at the Satellite TV company I currently work at...
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Last I checked there were homeless and poor people a plenty living in various tenement slums and the like that would love to do the work that you describe and yet for the life of me those people aren't living any better.
Respond to s
Actually if you read the article it is completly different than how it is reported by the slashdot headline. The admendment is not to limit the rights of hispanic immigrants but to give limited rights to illigal hispanics who are already here.
Ya its very good to do that ,For the wages part, but you forget that this lets more and more people to settle there thus closing chances of new people coming in. No new guys means not much of fresh ideas ,fresh approach. America gains by not only cheap labour but also the freshness of ideas and attitude. You know the apple-Newton story ,don't you.
There's always sufficient, but not always at the right place nor for the right folks.
"A Worn-Out Welcome Mat"
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A142 95-2000Sep15.html
Well, apart from NZ, as has aslready been mentioned, you could try the Netherlands. Probably one of the most tolerant places around. Luxembourg, Switzerland and Austria all have very high immigrant populations, and in spite of the crap spouted by the so called press, these places are very tolerant too. Maybe also you could look just a bit to the north.
WRONG! (IMHO of course...)
Okay, programming for a company isn't just sitting at a desk coding...at least it wasn't for me (I wrote internal systems / 'intranet' pages in Perl).
If you want to write software which really does make life/work easier, better and simpler (what else is software for?) you have to go and ask people what functions they need in a software package which will best suit their needs. Yes?
This is called communication with your co-workers - don't be afraid,it can actually be stimulating!
Elgon
I fail to see your connection between Coke, Pepsi, and cutting labor. Did Coke or Pepsi cut labor before raising prices?
I'm guessing the price increase was related to higher costs. And since soda is basically the made from the same material, if cost of carbonated water goes up for Coke, it's also going to go up for Pepsi. Neither benefits by keeping the final sale cost down, so they raise prices. I'm betting it could have been mutual. Just speculation. I can't say that the price of Pepsi has gone up where I live. It was 69cents last week(for a 2 liter bottle). A special of course, it will be back up to $1.29 in no time.
If the proffit margin of a company, any company, gets too big there is a lot of incentive for new companies to enter the marketplace and take market share. I.e. Intel and AMD. Granted there were some technology issues, but hardware has never been so cheap and the price has never dropped faster.
That ultimately will benefit consumers in the long run. I should have clarified that earlier.
ALL OF MY ANALYSIS IS FOR THE LONG TERM
There, That said you are exactally right about the short term, it will increase a companies bottom line. No change comes instantaineous and benefits sometime take a couple of years to filter down to the consumer. Humans are too impatient, they want everything NOW! not later.
Note To: NecroPuppy Nothing said was personal, sometimes it seems that way. Sorry if it did.
But they were citizens of a British Colony. Citizens of the United States are taxed and - in general - have the right to vote.
The face of a child can say it all, especially the mouth part of the face.
You know what pissses me off about being on H1 visa here? The taxes. And not that anybody else is happy with them but:
H1 visa program started in 90/91. It brought here around 600,000 - 700,000 taxpayers. And I am not talking about taxes from flipping burgers. Think about what monies went to local/federal and social security funds.
And think that each of these guys bought a car, bought furniture, houses even and see how much money we circulated in the american economy.
Perhaps AC was suggesting that Ian Fleming's fictional master spy would be allowed into the US, because of his 1337 5py 5ki11z. Punting 007 back out of the US after his visa ran out would make sense, right?
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Chief Frog Inspector
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
If there is a significant discrepancy between what the employer is paying its visa workers and what it is paying American citizens
That's cool unless it is a consulting firm whose only Americans are the account executives.
The current "Native Americans" mostly came here across the Bering Straits, but they were not the first Americans. The first Americans apparently came from Australia. If priority is everything, the tribes who happened to be here in 1492 shouldn't be assumed to have any greater right to live in the Americas than later immigrants.
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Build a man a fire, and he's warm for a day.
Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once... the bitch.
Dunno who your former employer was, but I recall when Apple had major layoffs the headhunters were skampering about the parking lot, over on Infinite Loop, stuffing flyers under windshield wipers and shoving them into the faces of people as they carried the contents of their desks to their cars.
;-) for a hire, that's opportunity.
Sort of a feeding frenzy, but when you consider that some headhunters get ~$15,000 (what it cost to recruit me, once
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Chief Frog Inspector
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Highly educated foreign scientists very rarely have trouble getting jobs in the US because it is easy to make the argument that the position is one that only can fill.
-Splat
As a H1-B worker I see _MUCH_ more that my fair share of "software enginners" who do not know what an algorithm is.
I was in a company where a "experienced" C++ senior consultant was teaching C++ at a college. Another colleague of ours took the course and they had to implement a Fraction class. When they turned the homework in, the "master" gave them a "reference implementation". Guess what? The reduction algorithm was recursive! When I explained to my buddies the Euclid algorithm for the biggest common denominator they were mesmerized. They asked me to prove it :) And I did that too - in my country you learn Euclid in the 6th grade and you learn the proof in the 9th.
There is no shortage of "programmers" here. There is a shortage of competent ones.
As an eeveel foreign worker I'd like to inject a few (disjointed) thoughts into the thread. Most companies, though desperate for technical staff, will not hire people who do not meet their technical and personal criteria for a position, regardless of the salary requirements of that individual. Companies are looking for good technical resources, and if they must look outside their own national borders to meet that demand, then what threat is it to established workers already in the labour pool? Naturally, no patriotic individual wishes to see his or her country over-run with migrant workers, but the kneejerk reaction that often accompanies such an influx is, as binarybits has said, usually purely xenophobic in nature. In my own country, technology is booming - I came here by choice for a change of scenery, and similar staff shortages exist there. Foreign workers are becoming commonplace in the tech industry there, and when I return, I fully expect to compete against them in a hopefully burgeoning market.
Additionally, while some companies here will undoubtedly pay below market to a foreign worker who may not know any better (although, with the proliferation of sites like monster.com, etc. if you don't know what your market value is, you've no-one to blame but yourself), most reputable companies will not do so (I work for a reputable company, and am quite happy with the level of remuneration I'm receiving). Companies wishing to employ a foreign worker on a H1-B must show a need for the worker in question, display the going rate for the work and the rate that the worker will be paid (to prevent exploitation) and indicate that the worker is not being brought in to break strike conditions or to "steal" jobs from existing workers.
most employers (from my experience as an agent) do not consider someone to have a skill unless they used it in their last job.
I agree that paid experience is king (as it should be, sorry college students but your school projects are not that valuable), which is why I always advocate doing small consulting projects. However, I think the biggest career killer is sitting in one job too long and getting too comfortable. If you want to get into Java but your currently using C++, then find a job that has both so that you can start to dabble professionally.
But even if you don't do all that, personal projects can do something for you as long as they aren't toys. Having "Developed Java-based personal finance program that used MySQL back-end" sounds better than "Developed java-based sort routines". Or develop some web-based stuff for your personal web site. "Developed photograph archiving and display program. Used Oracle for back-end storage blah blah" (Oracle is freely downloadable for personal use, by the way).
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Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
My problem with this foreign worker visa thing is that we are basically training a pool of foreign workers in one of the few industries where the US is tops. And then, since these visas are temporary, these freshly trained programmers go back home and fill a pool of talent that will do the same work for cheap.
:)
This is what has happened with most of the US industries over time, using cheap overseas labor. It's inevitable that it'll occur to the software industry, but do we have to help it along? Big companies say yes but I say no!
Maybe I should start learning genetic engineering now!
Do that and you say goodbye to a lot of pork and poison pills.
Another distortion of the program now is that many organizations are supplementing the H-1B ceiling with the shorter, but unlimited J-1 educational visas. The J-1 people are supposedly in "intern training programs", but do the same work as H-1Bs. One justification is that new J-1 people are actually learning the ropes and are in a holding tanks for H-1B visas.
So you got a logjam of J-1s waiting for H-1Bs waiting for green cards. What a mess!
I really don't get it.
Respond to s
Your full of shit, and I'll be nice enough to point out why...
"I have nothing against immigration being part
immigrant myself (thru my white blood) "
I'll assume you don't mean this literally or you'd be a medical curiosity. I will assume that you mean it figuratively that since your 'white' that you are an immigrant. You ignore the fact that so-called 'native americans' immigrated here also by coming across the Bering straits, or some other fashion thousands of years ago. Humans are not native to the America's. You no more an immigrant than those without 'white blood'.
Steve's Computer Service, Hobbs, NM
Just my few cents worth. (And I am looking for work in Dallas- you know the email address).
Lets pick some of these major concerns apart shall we?
A major reason why so much software sucks, is because its written by some guy with his brand new AS in Visual Basic.
"An H-1B nonimmigrant is an alien employed in a specialty occupation or as a fashion model of distinguished merit and ability. A specialty occupation is an occupation that requires theoretical and practical application of a body of specialized knowledge and attainment of a bachelor's or higher degree in the specific specialty as a minimum for admission into the United States."
Quoted from here. Additionally, Characteristics of Specialty Occupationalist Workers state that it is a must that the degree this worker holds be equivalent for them to be considered for a Visa, further about 41% according to the document of workers hold a Masters or higher.
Darn, I guess we can't blame foreign workers for some software being crappy....
Unemployment is so horribly low at the moment there isn't any labor
Well hmm lets think about this... maybe the statistics include mostly the elderly, children and the few-and-far-between-people who choose not to work?
It alarms me that people put forward statements like these "foremost concerns" with no regard for how foreign workers are treated while they are here... They make at least a factor of ten less in some cases than American workers.... and with the current ACWIA they lose work authorization status if they try to leave jobs where they are treated badly. Yes, I know the parties use dispicable tactics but we also need a global perspective on how what is done here affects other countries, regardless.
What also bothers me is that I have not yet seen or heard of efforts for having the educational system entertained in America to be on par with the countries that you "import" workers from. If you look at the list of countries you notice that the countries have a strong educational (and disciplinary system). In that particular regard, put up or shut up.
What has the HR department got to do with it? ... We were so desparate that we would talk to anybody who sent us their resume.
The problem is that the HR department will do the initial screening of the resumes before the engineers even get to see it. They don't really understand the requirements of the job so they just scan resumes for keywords.
Your company may have been desparate enough to interview anyone who sent a resume but the HR department will attempt to screen some applicants out just to justify the department's existence.
This tends not to be a problem with smaller companies (the kind I like to work for) because they can't afford HR departments so they don't have them.
Every company seeks the cheapest worker that will get the job done. That's the way the market work, and it's good for consumers, since products can be made cheaply.
However, if companies hire workers who aren't able to do a good job, they'll suffer for it. If you're right that older programmers are under-appreciated, that's a profit opportunity for firms willing to pay the premium for the best workers. At some point companies will start discovering this, and those that do first will snap up the best prospects and gain a competitive advantage.
If, on the other hand, a lot of older programmers simply haven't kept their skills up to date and really aren't any better than the newly minted college grads, then the problem may be that they're expecting to be paid more than they're worth. Just because you're forty doesn't mean you automatically deserve to earn twice what a 25-year old would earn. If a 25-year-old is able to do your job for half price, why should you stop him.
On the other hand, I know some folks getting training in various schools who are excellent examples of the MCSE urban legends [insert smirk] - have the cert, but can't even format a disk from the command line. One I talked to the other day who is going for an A+ cert didn't see why they needed to know about electricity basics. (I have stopped banging my head over these folks. Cuts down on my aspirin bills.) This of course contrasts with the actual ad I saw a while back that advertised for a "Entry Level position, 5 years Experience Required".
- - - - - - - -
"Never apply a Star Trek solution to a Babylon 5 problem."
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
That what happens when you have a lot of people with the same skill set. You get a problem with getting a job. That is the real problem. A overubundance of labor for the job category in question.
Respond to s
There are thousands of 30+ (REAL ancient) programmers out there having trouble getting a job, because their resume doesn't win buzzword bingo.
Er, did it ever occur to those thirty-plussers (of which I am one) to actually learn something and keep their skills up to date?
Oh, I see, employers should just assume that they are capable of learning new things, and then pay for their on-the-job training, rather than hiring someone that already has the experience.
Don't get me wrong... I'm with you that I'd rather have someone smart and ignorant than dumb and knowledgeable. But the employee does have some responsibility to keep the skills up-to-date.
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Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
Yeah, I live in the UK which matches all of your tech worker society problems:
1) Caste ridden ie: the class system
2) Against strivers
3) Socialist - Labour Government
4) Doesn't appreciate tech workers - governemnt introduces IR35 and taxes the shit out of IT contractors
However I am not packing my bags to move to the USA.
Why?
1) H1B visa too restrictive and open to exploitation.
2) For my line of work in Financial Services pay is actually better than USA.
3) Find all this Silicon Valley go-getting hype very dull.
4) Can't get a decent cup of tea there
5) No cricket
6) Hate sunny weather
7) Can't pop over to Amsterdam or any other cool Euro city for a quick weekend
than America?
Can you name one?
I did't think so.
We may have are problems, but America is nowhere near as Xenophobic as the French, with their Algerian riots, the Germans with skinheads killing Turkish guest workers, or the UK with skinheads beating up on Indians.
That's why the plaque on Ellis Island says
Give me your tired and poor
Yearning to be free!
If you ban any more immigrant workers are you going to insist that no more of your nationals work abroad? Fair's fair, and you want a fair chance, right?
JAPSETTSTWFB
What nerve, after helping build the worlds strongest high-tech economy, they have the nerve to actually go back to their country of origin when the US Govt says to? That's unamerican!
These people have overlooked a crucial part of training, 'How to thumb their noses at the US Govt.' How can they ever hope to be accepted as US citizens if they can't even master this simple skill...
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Chief Frog Inspector
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Please note that this is not just about increasing the annual number of H1B visas, but also makes some important changes about premanent residency, changing employers, etc. You can read a very short FAQ, the full text of the bill (as introduced), and much more at this site.
Also note that this is a bi-partisan bill, with Sen. Lieberman (Democratic Vice-Presidential candidate) a co-sponsor of the bill.
The salary they posted was 37k!
I agree. However, the salary listed on my visa application was the median salary my employer offers employees in my job, $67,000 for an entry-level C++ programmer. My salary is higher than that, and my American co-workers average something close to that, so I assume that my company is playing fair. I'm sure some aren't, but from a survey of friends who are also working on visas in the Bay Area, every single one is making a competitive salary.
As I say, I'm sure some companies don't play fair, however, I very much doubt that that's the general rule.
Called Lifestyles of the Rich and Fameous or something like that. Gave the life and lifestyles of exceedingly rich men/women. Quite boring.
Respond to s
The permanent residency claim made by this AC is guff, in my opinion. My company is not applying for residency for me, as they know I wish to return home next year. Many of the H1-B workers I know are either returning home voluntarily within their first 3-5 years or have already done so. It is generally considered within the immigrant circles in which I mix that anyone who stays longer than 5 years will probably opt to stay permanently. Some H1-B workers come over here with the intention of staying permanently, but I'm not sure that they would constitute a majority, as the above poster suggests. (Of course, different immigrant worker backgrounds would result in different attitudes to returning to their country of origin.)
With regard to the second point, I've changed jobs twice in 2.5 years, and have had no difficulty so far, other than a three month processing time by the INS of my new application. For those workers who intend to return to their own countries, and who make themselves aware of their legal rights, threats such as those suggested by the AC do not carry much weight.
Then again, maybe my experience, and that of some of my H1-B acquaintances and friends are contrary to the norm...
I had the same problems with credit when I first moved here. Having no credit record is worse than having a bad one in many cases. Nobody gave a damn about my wage here, I couldn't get credit to buy even the smallest thing.
You should find a good credit union. Get one that focuses on high tech workers if you can, since they'll be a lot more familar with your situation and will have more confidence in you since they know the current job market.
I joined one called "First Tech" and it solved all of my credit problems. They'll extend credit to you immediately if you have a good job, and all financial transactions I've done through them have been pretty painless, especially compared to the Canadian banks I've been used to dealing with.
Once one major financial institution "recognizes" you, the rest will soon follow. Now I get "pre-approved" credit card offers in the mail damn near every day.
P.S. Don't let the other assholes in this thread get you down. It's pretty clear to me why they can't get a job, and it has nothing to do with you or I.
Visited your homepage and saw that you may have yet to experience the pleasure of finding yourself jettisoned from your hard-earned position by the hotshot finance wheenie brought in to "streamline" the company's operations. After something like that, you may be more inclined to view initiatives such as the present case with suspicion. It may or may not be in the best interest of the county, but I have the impression that this effort to increase the IT labor pool is being undertaken as much for the specific purpose of undermining compensation in the IT industry as it is anything else. Of course such proposals must at least have the appearance of offering a generalized economic benefit or it would be rejected out of hand. I realize that, with this post, I may simply be inviting a stream of scorn, invective, and abuse for seeing conspiracy where others do not or for asserting a self-interest which others may regard as selfish and contrary to national interest, but I won't apologize or recant no matter what your rhetorical prowess, though thoughtful argument and sound evidence might make a difference.
And the moment that we actually DO find someone worth training, we take them on and train them. We already have two trainees under our wing - to be honest we don't have enough experienced staff at the moment to complete current deliverables AND correctly train and mentor the new starters. Bear in mind that it's not just technical skills that we need to train new starters in; they also have to learn a huge amount about Credit Risk management, Derivatives trading and Investment Banking too. The candidates that we've been seeing lately just aren't worth investing the time and money in, to be quite honest.
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The gift of death metal does not smile on the good looking.
I see. Because there is a law the government must be enforcing it. And of course the law is all anyone needs to protect them.
I guess all those people who died on Firestone tires, that passed Government Regulations, feel lots better.
My problem is not one of competition in a global economy it is of employers paying substandard wages to employees who are locked into that company with the threat of deportation. Why the hell would I want to work at a company paying lower wages than I'm making now? If you really want/need non-US workers to come in because you can't find people to work for you then give them the right to come to the country without strings and the threat of being deported.
(although I think if your salaries were REALLY competetive you would be able to find workers)
U suck ... that's why Im getting your job. Go back to the trailer park.
I take it you've never tried to help someone immigrate to Canada.
Nothing relating to the Canadian government is ever easy. It's faster, cheaper, and easier to immigrate to the USA. I married an American citizen and I couldn't believe how much easier it was for me to get a green card here than it was for her to get landed immigrant status in Canada.
Now we'll see how many remarks this provokes from the usual gang of outraged and ignorant Canadian xenophobes who are convinced that no country could ever do anything better than Canada, despite all the evidence to the contrary.
Like all the stuff in the IT press about H1's and cheap labor, this is utter horseshit. Have any of these people ever tried to hire good developers? Or, for that matter, crap developers? Thought not.
No, I *don't* want some idiot who's decided that flipping burgers doesn't pay enough, and has done the 6 week intensive VB course at the local community college, because, "err, like, IT people make, like, 30 bucks an hour, right?"; I want a SOFTWARE ENGINEER, this means a professional, with a university education, and preferably some experience (though we do hire a percentage of smart, upstanding college grads, and put them in an environment where they get proper mentorship).
I am the CTO of a venture backed startup in the USA.
We hire every shit hot developer that comes our way, no matter what color they are or where they come from. Does anyone seriously believe companies would go to all the crap the INS makes us do if we could get enough American citizens?
We are a Java shop, but we have hired people with no Java experience. None whatsoever. A good software engineer (note - not "coder" or "programmer") is good in any language; I personally can code in over 20, and none of the skills I consider important are at all relevant to which language you use.
A typical counterexample: I had one resume sent to me by an email blast from Monster (presumably sent to every registered company). The guy was older, had good skills, no Java. Also, curiously, all his lkast 5 jobs have been in the same small town in VA. So, I start a phone interview, and discover that he will *only* accept a job in this one horse town - I can't remember the name, it sure as hell wasn't Norfolk, Arlington or anywhere you've heard of. I said, "You did read on our website that we're based in Austin TX?" and he said, "What website?". So, is it the fault of the British, Indian, Canadian Chinese or Polish guys at our company that he's unemployed? You decide.
Our *average* engineer has a degree and 7 years of experience. We have an *awesome* dev team. It would be a good deal smaller if I had only US citizens to pick from.
If everyone in the world took this view, than we would be building a 50ft wall around each country, then each state, then each county, then each town, then each home. You get the point. If the labor market brings thousands of jobs over here then you (as a consumer) will benefit from CHEAPER and BETTER products. Just because you aren't a good enough programer to hold a job against competition doesn't mean the other 270 MILLION americans in this country need to pay more just to keep you employed.
Competition brings out the best in all of us. and like you said, lets think about this critically. From an economic standpoint (which I have a degree in too, in addition to my computer science degree)If you don't allow the for the free movement of labor, than you will get the movement of goods and services into your country. everyone complains about the trade deficit, but it is caused by us (as a nation) not producing the goods here in america, but overseas because it is too expensive here (due to the tight labor market). This is not a good or bad thing, it is just a natural economic process.
So, in conclusion, if you don't open the boarders to overseas workers, you will lose your job to them anyway because they will start exporting their goods and services into the U.S. effectively putting YOU out of a job and your company out of business. Then you will have to move to another country to find work and compete. Who would your rather have move? Them or us?
Have a nice day!
---A mind is like a parachute, it only functions when opened.
Have you read any of Harry's writings? I suggest you check out "The Great Libertarian Offer" before you make snap judgements about his presidentiality.
The IPCC has purposely engineered a massive scientific fraud.
I have the impression that this effort to increase the IT labor pool is being undertaken as much for the specific purpose of undermining compensation in the IT industry as it is anything else.
Of course it is. So what?
IT people are among the highest paid workers in the country. No, we don't make as much money as doctors or lawyers, but I think they're over-paid too. (and they have a lot more schooling than we do)
I'm quite happy being well-paid, but I don't consider continuing that state of affairs a moral imperative. Every company tries to pay its workers as little as possible. And importing foreign workers is one way of doing that.
Companies are not infinite reserviors of money. If they have to pay high prices for their workers, they *will* find a way to pass that cost on to their customers. They have to, or they'll lose money and go out of business. Likewise, if the cost of IT people falls, that lower cost will be passed on to customers by inter-firm competition. This won't happen immediately, but it will happen.
To put this in perspective, it helps to think about it in a context other than national interest. Imagine instead that we're all Californians, and California didn't allow people in Alabama into the state except under certain conditions. Imagine there is a bill before the California legislature to open up the border and let more workers in.
You could make all the same arguments-- the evil silicon valley corporations are trying to drive down wages, the Alabama workers will work for next to nothing, etc. Yet no one is proposing that people be restricted from state to state. It is widely recognized that the free movement of labor is beneficial to the nation's economy.
The same is true of international migration. The migration of workers from poor to wealthy countries helps to even out wage imbalances and ensures that workers go where their skills are needed most. Immigration restrictions harm the economies of both nations-- the wealthier one because they have too much capital and not enough labor, and the poorer one because they have the opposite problem.
Do I have sympathy for IT workers that get pay cuts or get laid off? Absolutely. But I think the dangers are exaggerated, and more importantly, I think we need to keep some perspective. None of us are on the verge of starving. Most workers in the world would kill for jobs like the ones many of us have. I think we can afford to share the wealth a little, and to let those with the misfortune to be born in another country the same opportunities we can enjoy. Yes, we might not get raises that are quite as big, but the loses we might suffer are dwarfed by the enourmous benefits to the workers in other countries.
Although I agree with you on the H1b visa item, I have no other choice than to chip away at every instance of 'pop culture' that I happen across.
Steve's Computer Service, Hobbs, NM
Yesterday, our upstairs neighbors (who I had never met) came down to our office desperately looking for anyone who understood JSP. It appears that they contracted with a foreign software house to have a web application built, and it is both late and non-functional. They knew we were programmers and were hoping that we had a clue. We don't, but some friends of ours do, so I hooked everyone up.
I hope they now realize that technical competence is more than a commodity. And I must say that I also hope that my buddy takes what little cash they have left before they go down in flames.
You will not drink with us, but you would taste our steel? - Walter Matthau, The Pirates
We've had people fail a gamut of technical questions, including the REALLY easy ones like "what are some of the basic differences between Java and C++", "what's pass-by-reference/value", "What's single/multiple inheritance, and which one does Java have" etc. Really simple stuff that people who claim to be 'Java experts' should probably know!
Only last week we had a 'security/cryptography' expert in (fantastic Resume) who couldn't tell me the basic Java cryptography architecture (JCE), didn't know the difference between a symmetric and an asymmetric cipher, and handn't even heard of the Wassenaar Aggreement (allegedly he'd been developing global security/cryptographic solutions in Java for over a year.)
The skills 'claimed' on the resume's that we're receiving and the demonstrated skill-set at interview are, at least for us, showing HUGE discrepancies.
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The gift of death metal does not smile on the good looking.
I missed that show unfortunately. As someone who entered this country (USA) on an H1B this is an interesting subject. The program offers foreign workers the opportunity to work in the states. When I came here I had no intention of staying, it was just a new experience and good resume fodder. However I met my wife here and since she's a citizen so I get to stay.
However there is a dark side to this program. Workers are definetly exploited, especially those from the Indian subcontinent. I know workers who were being billed out at $100/hr + and they were seeing $30K/year salaries. It takes a while for these workers to realize they are being screwed and get a new company to sponsor them and get more money. They can only do his if they haven't applied for they're greencard. Once that application has started you cannot change employers without starting the green card process over.
The question of there being enough workers in the US to fill the positions is also interesting. One thing I've noticed is that very few employers look objectively at the potential employees overall ability. They look for specific buzzword experience markers. I have over 10 yrs experiene in OO, but not using the Java language (mainly ObjectiveC). Many companies, despite the fact that I could pick up Java in a week, don't consider me experienced enough for Java projects. They will favor someone who has the buzzword and programs Java in a procedural fashion (since they used to do asp or whatever) over someone who has proven OO and internet skills. Basically the high tech labor shortage is not as great as it woud seem if companies where more objective in their searches.
Anyway, with the internet, foreign high tech education systems producing great talent, and the good old capatilism it's only a matter of time before the American programer salary begins it's downward trajectory as work is outsource to cheaper labor markets. Oh, it's not happening much now but give it time.
Consumers are also "dying" to maximize the value of their dollar, or pound, or whatever. They can't do that if there is a massive labor shortage in the technology sector.
Think about it. Your salary drops $5000 a year due to the influx of labor. Yet you can now purchase $6000 more a year in Goods and Services (G&S) due to the lower costs that the companies pass on to the consumer. So you have benefited from the cheaper products. Same applies if you move to a new area and take a salary cut. You may actually be better off because G&S are significantly cheaper.
Most Supply and demands curves are very elasic to price changes. Decreasing the price 1% could result in a 2% increase in sales, not only does that offset the expense of the lower sale cost, but the company makes significantly more revenue from the additional sale. Only a few items (Drugs, medical treatment) have inelastic demand curves.
--A mind is like a paracute, it only functions when open.
Democrats are trying to 'poison pill' the bill by giving limited rights to Hispanics who have been in the country for decades.
I hope to god that the poster just misquoted that. Why the fuck should our government be granting rights to individuals of a particular race? I don't see why someone from Mexico should get privaliges that someone from, say, China wouldn't get.
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
Einstein is not wanted here, because he'll take someone's job. And politicians think that the purpose of government is to protect its citizen's jobs, create new jobs, be friendly to unions, etc. It's sick. What is even sicker is that when one of them does this sort of thing, they get votes for it. Einstein, go home!
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As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
Remember the thing about the Boston tea-party? All that stuff about taxation without representation from the original group of immigrants?
Well, as a non-naturalized immigrant, you have to pay tax - but you can't vote. Taxation without representation. Those same immigrants who have now been here for a few generations now seem fit to resume taxation without representation.
Oolite: Elite-like game. For Mac, Linux and Windows
According to this story in the NY Times, the Democrats have given up their attempt to append the illegal immigrant legislation to the H-1B visa bill. They are instead planning to attach it to an appropriations bill. The H-1B bill is now assured of easy passage through Congress; American corporations have once again bribed the federal government to fsck over the american worker.
yo quiero trabajar en los estados unidos, quien me puede dar trabajo?
I new way to play Buzzword Bingo.
.NET architecture.
Fill in a section of your resume in a misleading way just like sites do with meta tags.
I am familiar with programs written in Visual Basic, Java and C++. I have 10 years experience with languages that look like C#. I have extensive experience with embrace-and-extinquish architectures such as Microsoft's latest
Salary Requirements: Competitive rate
You have to BS past HR.
Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
Have you considered Buffalo?
Nit a lot of go getting hype (point 3), not much sunny weather (point 6), and North America's cleanest, most livable city is a few hours drive down the QE2, Toronto (point 7).
While I get ill thinking about all the unrelated riders that are allowed to be attached to a bill, I don't see this as the worst example.
This is an immigration issue. Many may see a big difference between H1-B tech workers and retroactive hispanic sanctuary. I'd agree, they're two different situations, but let's look at some similarities.
* H1-B workers are brought in to take care of "short/limited term" tech jobs that aren't paying what local talent would accept. Mexican migrant workers are brought in to take care of "short/limited term" harvest jobs that aren't paying what local talent would accept.
* H1-B workers are forced to leave and have unusually draconian limitations on becoming naturalized citizens; they often slip off the radar to stay in the USA with newformed families beyond their officially sanctioned stay. Mexican migrant workers are forced to leave and have unusually draconian limitations on becoming naturalized citizens; they often slip off the radar to stay in the USA with newformed families beyond their officially sanctioned stay.
This isn't quite like the attempts to attach language like "illegal to make hyperlinks" to methamphetamine-related legislation, as a rider on a banking omnibus bill, which, coincidentally, allows for stealthy search and seizure.
[
I never plan to leave my country of origin
I meant to say JAPSRGETTSTWFB
Looking at this from a mathmetical perspective you have this. If you look at the number of good jobs and then you look at the number of people in the world who are in the upper 1% of ability you quickly realize that they could eliminate almost all enjoyable employment. Not an accademic slouch by any means there are some people who apparently in the world have been trained to enjoy suffering and pain and hence work harder and harder.
Those minority of people will keep most others from getting jobs that are any better then McDonalds or worse.
Do you really want to be dealing with people who are Jeopardy candiates every day vying for a job.
Respond to s
Well, first off, it would be Congress that would amend the laws to offer residency visas, not the president. That aside, this is an outstanding idea. I know (and work) with many people trapped in H1-B hell. Even worse off are the poor individuals who are brave enough to try and make it through the tangle of the immigration beauracracy to try and become citizens... that takes 4-5 years, nowadays; and if you change employers, then you need to go back to square one and start from the beginning. Which means that if you come to the US on an H1-B and want to become a naturalized citizen, you had better love your job - because if you leave; or if they fire you; or lay you off; or if the company gets bought out, or goes under... even if you're a day away from getting your green card, you're SOL.
All this makes a mockery of the H1-B and naturalization programs.
"Great men are not always wise: neither do the aged understand judgement." Job 32:9
The unnecessary of importing workers ?????
What does that mean ?
How about.
The pointlessness of importing workers.
Importing workers is not necessary
Importing workers is unnecessary.
It is unecessary to import workers.
or use smaller words
Keep aliens out
No more H1-B
Your opinion is as screwed as your english.
Woe be on to them, all who rise against poor people, shall perish in a the end. Buju Banton
"Get them young, burn them out, let them go".
The man won an award for publishing this in a book and now high-tech business is following his ideas. The H1B Visas are perfect for this because after they burn the young people out, they don't have to see them again. Companies realised that doing this to american workers was like sh*ting where you eat, so they want to do it to foreign workers. It makes perfect sense. Especially since the difficulty in getting a job increases with age. Many 30-40 year old people with tons of experience are being shafted in the job search.
BTW, I have also worked with Indian, Russian, and other foreign workers and found them determined and knowledgeable.
Incompetence is not to be tolerated. Ignorance is not to be ignored. Failure is not an option.
Strong data typing is for those with weak minds.
Strong data typing is for those with weak minds.
". Just because you're forty doesn't mean you automatically deserve to earn twice what a 25-year old would earn. If a 25-year-old is able to do your job for half price, why should you stop him."
I agree. I got pissed off with one of my previous employers. I had to fight them for pay rises. They kept telling me that there wasn't enough money. Then of course they went ahead and hired a couple of people with 10 years more experience that me, and 15-20 years my age. The frustrating part was I had more ability than them, but they were paid 3x more. It's time to end this BS corporate attitude (eh, up the people!) where pay is based on experience... performance and ability should be the metric. E.g., a senior C++ programmer with many years experience shouldn't have been telling/arguing with me that it's okay to double delete, and that he'd done it just to be sure there weren't any memory leaks!
I posted as info to people that may want to do it, the realisties are different to the expectation.
I have now found that there are a number of ways of sorting the credit issue, get a car-loan, pay it, and you get credit offers daily. In the past year I have done this, and things are good.
I did had a credit card in the country I lived, but they could not transfer it. Had I thought about it I would have got an Amex I guess....
Good advice though - Thanks
,.nf
Not Fragile
Think about it. Your salary drops $5000 a year due to the influx of labor. Yet you can now purchase $6000 more a year in Goods and Services (G&S) due to the lower costs that the companies pass on to the consumer. So you have benefited from the cheaper products. Same applies if you move to a new area and take a salary cut. You may actually be better off because G&S are significantly cheaper.
Except the companies don't cut the prices at which they sell the items, they usually raise them.
Anyone remember when Coke said they were raising their prices a few months back? Pepsi's reply was to raise their prices as well, to remain competative.... WTF?
You'd think that by keeping their prices lower, they could pick up more market share, thus gaining even more money.
Other businesses work the same way, a reduction in costs, say by reducing the wages of the IT staff doesn't translate into lower costs for the consumers, just a better bottom line for the company.
NecroPuppy
I like you, Stuart. You're not like everyone else, here, at Slashdot.
Computer Science 101
--
Chief Frog Inspector
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
to all of you who see more immigrants as the solution to all problems: there is no more room; the country is already destroyed. The immigrants already destroyed it. Aliens who insist on the right to come here to better themselves... why didn' they better their native countries..1.5 billion chinese + 1.0 billion indians + 1.0 billion other asiatics on top of 0.275 billion us citizens = 3.75 billion people who want to live here. These are people who have already labored for centurys to absolutely destroy their own countries..can't blame them for wanting out of it. This countries obsession with playing with toy computers and converting it's capital wealth to bookkeeping depts is no excuse for furthering the destructiion of this once, "America The Beautiful". Go to the mountains while you can, because these people are going to need water, and they will build dams around the Olympics, the Rockies wherever necessary to get it. What do you want for the future of the world. I say keep new immigrants in their own countries and help and teach them to do it the right way, other than breeding like flies. No people are foreign to me, except, legally; and most of them are very nice people, but the facts are the facts, and you can't fool mother nature. Destroy the earth the only God that you can have, for the sake of playing with toy computers????? swrat...more later
I'm a US citizen seriously considering taking a job in Europe. Seems the "IT Shortage" is just as bad, if not worse, on that side of the puddle.
Concealed Handgun License Courses in Plano, Texas
Actually the median salary for H1-B applicants is $45,000. From a GAO report entitled "H1-B Foreign Workers - Better Controls Needed to Help Employers and Protect Workers" (PDF format)
I'm not an actor, but I play one on tv.
"I am glad you got paid well. The H1-B people I work with are paid less than what they were promised before moving here and less than what the government was told. When they complained to HR about it they were told to put up with it or go home."
Yes, when I wasn't happy with a mere 15% pay rise I threatened to quit. Of course, it helped being young and single: I didn't have so much to lose or so much personal responsibilty. Thankfully they didn't call my bluff as I really didn't want to have look for a job. You really have to stand up and speak out for yourself, which although is very American, comes hard to people from some cultures.
I don't how the HR department at these places would react if informed of the consequences should the INS or Justice Dept. find out what is going on.
"As far as age discrimination is concerned, the problem is that if anything on your CV hints that you are over 30 you won't get past HR to the interview. This is often the case, regardless of what skills you may claim to have."
I haven't seen any of that in the IT area (yet). Maybe all of my co-workers at this and previous jobs are open-minded. A lot of people at my previous job commented on what a pleasant team we had, and how well such diversity worked.
However, I have seen what you talk of with regards to my father back home in the UK. After 25 yrs in the RAF he quit and retrained. He's had a very hard decade, and is still doing the biochemstry work that now bores him to tears at the local hospital, just because it pays better than anything else.
As far as I know, many Mexican citizens are Catholics and Catholicism is somewhat a part of Christianity, but it isn't 100% Christian. I don't like Catholicism because I think they worship Mary and sanctify all the saints higher than the messiagh Jesus. I know that Mary gave birth to the son of God, Jesus, but she is only significant in that matter. In the Bible, she is blessed with that opportunity and afterwards she lives a regular life and is rarely mentioned because she has already fulfilled her quest. When I see people worshipping statues of Mary and other Saints who have been promoted by the pope and Vatican, I think that they have broken the most crucial law of the ten commandments. Idolizing people simply because they help others in the name of God does not grant them as spiritual guides who will be prayed upon and have followers. Don't get me wrong. Clean people will always be clean, but I think that the catholic religion is somewhat twisted because the vatican has misled them. The Vatican is considered more of a Gateway to God than God itself! What realy makes me most angry of the Vatican is that theyh posess some of the verry first Christian scriptures and they will not release them to the public because the scriptures offend the Vatican's beliefs of the their priesthood. I don't care what people think about their religion because it is all in faith, but what I don't tolerate is the Vatican falsifying and stealing holy scripture for their own gain. If that causes anyone to think that I am badgering their religion, than they have missed the point. I am different from a Catholic and the Catholic priesthood ois indebted to the Christian religion because they have stolen and falsified thge existence and the words of Christian scripture. So, why mix more different people together and make them squabble of their differences? I may be more kind and considerate than others, but it isn't good that the United States's economy be interupted because freedom is at stake and freedom is upheld and managed by a strong economy. Mexico's government is corrupt and its citizens have traveled to the United States to receive citizenship. Not only have they received citizenship in the United States and have been received benefits and income adjustments due to not qualifying for good employment, but they have retained citizenship in Mexico and may participate in political events and elections in both United States and Mexico. That isn't fair. In my testimony, that is evil. I know many people who have been hurt in many ways when that have visited and vacationed in Mexico. They are different people. Don't mix different people. I just want to remain free with my 1st and 2nd ammendment and care for my family. That is hard enough to do today because of taxation and freedom violations due to illegal voting. Just because you are fleeing from your country doesn't mean that you should affect my rights and freedoms with your actions. Don't tread on me.
without prejudice
There have been quite a few 'visa' news topics on /. lately, and many misconceptions spoken about what you are/are not entitled to on certain visas.
To clear it up, here's a site that may be of use. It gives details of each of the different visas required for entry/employment in the U.S.
--
The gift of death metal does not smile on the good looking.
At the end of the H1B visa term, these people have to leave the US. While that's just part of the deal when getting a H1B visa, many of these people make a home for themselves in the US and it is painful for them to leave.
So, I don't think expanding H1B visas is a good answer to the shortage of technical workers. It is a bad short-term solution. Free education is a better answer and should see results in 3 to 4 years.
Why not just ask for tax breaks and offer to train Americans? Nothing against people from countries, but this whole visa for foreign workers smells of sweatshop labor. Instead of putting a factory in the US and paying minimum wage, let's put it elsewhere and pay nothing ... or ... US
programmers won't work for $30k, but somebody
else will.
I never plan to leave my country of origin mainly becuase the immigration is tight in other countries and because it's harder to get a job there. The expense is also huge. I remember one of my father's friends who basically ended up stranded in another country when his employment panned out. Not a pretty sight.
Respond to s
Like so many other statistics, you have to learn how to read them in order to extract the truth. The truth in this case is that most potential IT workers gave up on getting those salaried jobs because the pay was low, hours long, and future uncertain. The unemployment statistics only indicate who is still looking for work, not the ones who have decided that going self-employed is a more-secure way to go, or ended up in another sector of the employment pool ditto.
How many taxi drivers are in the pool of IT employees, but aren't counted because they are otherwise employed? I remember when the job market was so poor that PhDs were driving cabs to feed their families until the job market straightened out. I guess I'm just showing my age...
Because you suggested voting republican, a no-no on slashdot, it's the mods ways of supressing different ideas, I don't agree with it either
It's not about foreigners; it's not about immigration. It is very much about competition on a level playing field. Why should Sane Corp. pay top dollar, good benefits, limit OT when they can get the modern version of indentured servants.
Why train qualified support and operations staff formal programming skills when the company can buy the talent overseas? This thing butters the bread of the tech industry and nothing else--the robust American high-tech industry which needs duty-free shopping on the 'net, DARPA funded research and indentured foreign talent to *compete*!
Hornswoggle.
illegitimii non ingravare
From the HR and CEO POV: more workers to choose from, keep recruiting costs and salaries down.
From the worker bee POV: lower salaries, more competition for the job (not really much of a problem in high tech)
If you haven't been to a Westech in SV, you should pop into one if you're ever in the neighborhood. Meatmarket is pretty descriptive
--
Chief Frog Inspector
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Of course it couldn't just be an attempt by large corporations to drive down the cost of IT staff in the US, that would be immoral, wouldn't it. Or do you think the likes of Gap, Nike and Dell, to name but a few, who have already 'outsourced' thousands of manufacturing jobs to far-eastern sweatshops, would hesitate to do the same to much more expensive IT staff. Funny how they haven't thought about training third-world people in US law to drive down the high cost of sueing people. But then the US is ruled by lawyers, not IT people.
Do you *really* think you are so terribly smart that you are better than everyone in the world at a particular task? I mean really don't kid yourself you can't be *that* good. It's just simple math.
Respond to s
What, precisely, is the "nation's interest", as distinct from the private interests of its citizens, and why should the "nation's interest" take precedence. I'm undecided on the H1B issue, but I don't like your Volkstaat reasoning.
The best way to guarantee that is to have as many qualified people to compete for the job as possible.
This is amazingly debatable; it could quite easily be possible that people are more productive when they're actually relaxing and thinking about a problem rather than constantly watching their back trying to save their job. And in any case, if you expand the labour pool, you have no guarantee that the employer's strategy will be to hold wages constant and take higher quality; they might just decide to lower wages and cut quality.
Geek economics, like geek politics, is best avoided.
-- the most controversial site on the Web
You are aware that he has been found innocent of all charges, aren't you? No, thought not.
-- the most controversial site on the Web
Yeah and what happens to all those workers in the country that hires the cheap foreign labor? They get sacked and then you have to look for a (nonexistent) new job.
Respond to s
We have plenty of labor in the United States and we don't really need anymore
The last I heard, the unemployment rate in the US is hovering around 3%. Now, as any economist (or economist to be) could tell you, 3% unemployment == full employment. It is unrealistic, and probably near impossible, to get a lower rate. As it is, such a low inflation rate will cause inflation rates to increase, and that isn't necessarily a good thing. Bringing in workers from other countries helps alleviate the demand for workers and prevent inflation from creeping up.
What if the forgein worker in question had a Doctor of Technology qualification ?
no sig
Andrew
Your views are fascinating. Apologies in advance if I come across as patronising, combative or just boring, but hey, it sounds like you're missing out and that would be a shame.
After all, it's your life, but please, take a look around.
Bizarre cultural refrence #1234:I looked up Robby Leech on Google, who is he?
I really don't see the fuss over all this. I mean they could have worked from ANYWHERE programming. I mean isn't the Internet a good enough connection to the "home office" as to stay connected? Seriously, this was a temporary stay and was known to be a temporary stay. They can't whine now that the time is up because they knew it would happen. As for Billy boy's fund raising, I didn't know there was any money in silicon valley ;)
Get paid to code OSS
That aside, this is an outstanding idea. I know (and work) with many people trapped in H1-B hell. Even worse off are the poor individuals who are brave enough to try and make it through the tangle of the immigration beauracracy to try and become citizens... that takes 4-5 years, nowadays; and if you change employers, then you need to go back to square one and start from the beginning.
Bring me your poor, your tired, your huddled masses... and I will shaft them any way I can.
Actually its even worse than that. You first have to gain permanent residence status (aka a Green Card). This took me three years. After that, its a minimum of 5 year before you can even take the citizenship exam. While you are applying for your Green Card, you cannot change employer. If you do, you have to restart your Green Card application from scratch. You cannot start a Green Card application for at least 1 year after entering the US on an H1B visa. Your H1B visa is only valid for 6 years, so you have a fairly short window of opportunity to get a Green Card before your H1B runs out and you are thrown out of the US.
Sailing over the event horizon
In my interviewing experience with my current company (conducting the interviews rather than sitting them!) there is a fairly severe lack of good quality software engineers in the market at the moment.
We are a large Investment Bank that uses Java almost exclusively for our development. Our project is expanding and we need another four or so Java developers onboard. We're offering top-tier salary, and indeed receive many impressive CV's through the door. Unfortunately when these people eventually turn up to interview, they are more often than not completely ignorant of the technologies that they claim to know. I have, on more than one occasion, been embarassed for one of my interviewees when he/she hasn't been able to adequately answer one technical question put to them.
There is certainly a large pool of potential I.T. employees out there, but certainly in the Chicago area the average quality is low.
--
The gift of death metal does not smile on the good looking.
Instead of expanding the program, Clinton could start offering HB-1 veterans residency visas. That way the market gets more programmers (nobody gets sent back), but since they have more bargaining power, they'll use and thus not push down the pay scales for the rest of us.
Part of my work involves immigration law. A great deal of woe befalls legal residents of the US as a result of the 1996 IIRAIRA ("Immigration Reform Act of 1996") and Anti-Terrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act (AEDPA).
Among other things, the 1996 law mandates "administrative detention" (i.e. jail) for virtually all aliens in removal proceedings (sometimes for years), without regard to flight risk, community support, or family needs. The 1996 law took away second chances for first offenders, making deportation a simple "check the box" affair, regardless of the special situation ivolved in individual cases. The 1996 law has "jurisdiction stripping" provisions meant to bar review of INS/DOJ decisions by federal judges (although lawyers have managed to have some of these provisions declared unconstitutional). The 1996 laws eliminated Section 245(i), forcing many with approved "green cards" to leave to US to pick them up, often subjecting them to the new 10 year bars to return to the US.
These things can happen to people who have lived in the US for decades, or who where brought here by their parents when they were small children.
US immigration law is a complex and difficult subject too often subjected to politicking over sound policy. The 1996 changes removed many safety valves and due process considerations that lead to truly scary situations. Labling this as a "hispanic ploy" meant to be a poison pill is disingenuous. There are real issues here.
---
In a hundred-mile march,
The Escape key is usually in the upper left
corner of the keyboard. It is usually
labeled ESC or SEL or can be identified
by being an Escape key.
Ha!
Tell that to my Alpha workstation. My Esc key is actually F11. Go figure.
-- If you can't convince them, confuse them (Truman)
And where did those "AMERICANS" come from?
NPR's Talk of the Nation recently did a show on this. It seems that everyone is saying that high-tech companies are pro and all the programmers are anti this bill. That seems to tbe what I am finding around town as it were.
What are people's thoughts? What are the benefits of this bill? Do high-tech suits just want this bill to pass because they are unwilling to hire americans at a competetive rate? Or is there a real shortage of people to hire in the country?
MrMcGibby - Uh
Mad Software: Rantings on Developing So
"Face it, there is no shortage of programmers, there's just a shortage of cheap programmers"
No. There is a shortage of *good* programmers. Any old monkey can jump on the band-wagon and get a piece of paper proclaiming their Mickey-mouse diploma/degree from the local community college. That doesn't make them competent.
"The HARD part of programming isn't happening to know the syntax of the latest hip code doo-dad, but rather in knowing how to think about problem solving. "
I agree. Although there are plenty of people around looking for jobs, only a minority actually fit the bill.
"Unfortunately, time-to-market/end-of-quarter thinking in large corporations impels managers to seek the cheapest, fastest solution... and it looks like its a foreign programmer. "
Hiring foreign workers is not quick. It takes at least 2 mos for an H1 application to process. My first one took 4.5. Foreigners hired since May of this year (I believe) are still waiting due to the annual caps being reached. Finally, when I was on an H1, I wasn't cheap - and don't forget that we must be paid at least the prevailing wage.
"There are thousands of 30+ (REAL ancient) programmers out there having trouble getting a job"
... and a lot of them aren't doing what it takes to maintain their skillset and keep competitive in this rapidly [rev]evolving business. Infact, many are just plain lazy and had it easy for too long. I have many friends in the high-tech business all over 30, and some of 40. Those people are the best software engineers I've worked with.
By Jove, I think he's got it. If you are standing between the two parties, they look very different. In truth, though, they both want to expand the power of government (at the expense of citizens, which is the only way to do it) and they both want to determine what you do. The only difference is whether they want to put their hands down the front or the back of your pants before they squeeze. Check out the Libertarian Party for an alternative.
-jeff
-- Two men say they're Jesus. One of them must be wrong. - Dire Straits
The issue that comes up every time there's a story about H-1Bs is that many people believe that H-1B workers are simply a source cheap labour for US companies. I'm here as a Canuck on a TN visa (an altogether different beast), but a couple of my co-workers are on H-1Bs and I have read up extensively on both visas.
In any case, this bit about H-1B workers being cheap labour is not entirely true. In fact, INS regulations require that companies pay visa workers equivalently to citizens specifically to ensure that Americans fill the jobs first. Before an H-1B is approved by the INS, a whack of documentation has to be submitted from the company that is petitionning on the worker's behalf. In this documentation is included the salary offered to the visa applicant and the average salary paid to a non-visa worker in the same position. The company must also provide evidence that they could not fill the position with an American worker -- usually this can be done simply by advertising the job, or providing evidence that when the position was advertised, it could not be filled by an American.
If there is a significant discrepancy between what the employer is paying its visa workers and what it is paying American citizens, the company may be found by the INS to be in violation of immigration regulations, and face penalties. I believe Intel may have actually faced an investigation related to this, but don't quote me on that -- I could be totally wrong.
The entire H-1B issue was covered, if I remember correctly, in a past issue of Communications of the ACM. The article was well-balanced (ie. didn't really favour either point of view on H-1Bs) and would be a useful read for anyone considering getting all excited and rabid over this issue. If anyone can provide a link, please post it.
In any case, a sensible long term solution is to put more funding into Computer Science education in the US and crank up the number of American C.Sc. graduates. Bringing in visa workers is a temporary band-aid solution to a much larger problem.
The US is a BIG country with plenty more room/resources.
Judging from your post, you should move to a country with a tiny population density, such as Australia.
This is the main reason very fiew people change H-1 jobs, especially after couple of years (and couple of years closer to the boot limit). As soon as you jump ship, your PR application is terminated.
Companies certainly use this arrangement to their advantage. How? Simple - just imagine to have an engineer who cannot quit. Do whatever you want with him. Total freedom for HR Catberts. You cannot seriously undercut him, say down to $20K (it is illegal). But you can pay $40K, $45K for a very expirienced guy where otherwise you would pay $70K.
If anyone makes a fuss, you a) say his expirience and performance was not good; b) suck it up, but later mishandle his PR in some way. I started at $55K and boy I was lucky.
[From a former H-1B holder :)]
????? Is this a troll?
If you're good enough you have no fear of the competition.
--
Chief Frog Inspector
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Face it, there is no shortage of programmers, there's just a shortage of cheap programmers.
Absolutely true. There's also a shortage of common sense on software companies' HR departments. They don't seem to have a clue as to hiring -- you're entirely correct that there are a ton of older programmers that could easily adapt to new technologies and be more useful in the long run, but most non-software people don't get that.
Unfortunately, hiring H-1B workers does not solve the problem of cheap labour. INS regulations require that companies pay visa workers as though they were American workers. If there is a consistent discrepancy between the two, the Justice department (the parent of the INS) steps in imposes penalties/prosecution.
So yes, you are correct, companies are looking for cheap labour whether local or imported, but no, visa workers do not solve that problem. That part is a myth.
My argument isn't about importing foreign workers or even outsourcing abroad, I just don't trust the big corps not to use them in order to drive down wages in the IT sector. After all, a lot of manufacturing jobs have been exported from the West to sweatshops in the Far East already and wages in that sector were less than the silly money that some IT staff get. And please don't try and pretend that the savings were passed on to the consumer, or else Nike trainers and Gap khakis would cost $5.
It's sad you've ruled that option out of your life. Sure bad things happen, but I work with many expatriates and they've mostly benefited from working abroad when you ask them what they think.
1. I don't speak any language above a gutteral
Me Tarzan You Jane level except English. That would limit my choices of effective movement to Australia, England, Ireland, Scotland, Wales and the like.
Do you plan on never taking any business trips abroad?
My family and I have never had anyone with a desk job for roughly 3 generations. I have never had a senior level management position and that pretty much rules that out.
Also, what about your fellow Americans who want to work abroad? If you stopped immigration, it would make them look hypocritical.
Then I guess it just sucks. If you want to leave the country then leave but don't think you can have any illusion that you still have the same rights as a US citizen just because you once lived there.
What's your position on working abroad for multinationals?
Whatever country that you currently live in is the country that you are in fact actually allied with and have citizenship in. You don't have any other citizenship in reality unless you are living in that country and are a citizen.
Maybe all the people you deal with have a great deal of free time/money to mess around with Robby Leech and the crew of lifestyles of the Rich and Fameous but from where I stand international travel is for the rich and well to do.
Respond to s
I live in California, and work for a large software company, currently on an L-1 visa.
My visa allows me to work for this company, and this company only. My wife is not allowed to work at all, she is allowed to accompany me, and live in the US with me. An H1-B gives you slightly more rights, but even then it is not that fantastic.
Should I decide that I do not want to work for this company, I have ten days to vacate the country. This would give an unscrupulous company the right to treat you like dirt...
The move here cost thousands of dollars, no sorry, tens of thousands of dollars, both to the company that I work for , and to us personally.
The major downside is that I have no credit history.
You want to get a car, try an APR in the teens, you want to insure it, how long have you held a US licence for ? OK, that will be six times the cost then.
You want a bank account, no overdraft facility for a year.
You want a credit card - you need to place a security deposit equal to the credit limit on it then.
No chance of unseccured credit for the next year or so.
I even had to re-take my driving tests.
You have little or no "status" in the country.
It was a huge personal sacrifice to come here, fortunatly I am treated very well by my employer, because they understand how committed we are to this. However it is not the land of milk and honey that many people living outside of the US feel that it may be.
The H1-B is only a small section of the difficulties in moving over here. I welcome this move, but will warn everyone that is contemplating it, that it will cost you thousands of dollars.
Oh yes, I do love living here....
./nf
Not Fragile
Anybody else get the feeling that our representatives in Congress, Republican and Democrat alike, are more concerned with their petty squabbles and party lines than actually getting anything interesting done with the country?
Every time I read a story like this I see one party putting something forward, and the other one trying to sink it with gimpy tactics like this Hispanic rights limitations clause.
Why can't we all just get along?
<single tear>
<rant>
... I am getting so angry ... I just recently was told that I am losing my job to H-1B visa workers - the systems I work on are being "out-tasked", (not outsourced - the responsibility/accountability remains here and a few "liason/business analyst" positions remain here, while a "bodyshop" in the U.S./India is given the technical work ...) ...
Now, I don't want to hear about how they can't do that, blah blah blah ... fact is it is being done and American programmers are let go to bring in foreign H-1B visa workers, mostly of the Indian variety ... the big firms shield themselves by contracting with another "bodyshop" firm whose workers are comprised predominately of H-1B visa workers (i.e., Syntel ...) ... if you look around at my "shop", it already resembles New Delhi or some other Indian locale ... and yes, indeed, American programmers were displaced by cheaper H-1B Visa programmers ... coupled with rampant age discrimination, it sure makes it tough to get a gig, but I have faith and confidence in my skills and abilities, other colleagues have opted for management routes, different careers, or early retirement (if they could ...) ... bottom line though is that it is the company's call to do this ... but that doesn't mean my anger doesn't boil when I see industry chiefs argue for higher H-1B visa limits, that there is a shortage of programmers, yada, yada, yada ... that is a crock of shit ... - the real deal is that it is all about cheap labor - and that the majority of the H-1B visa workers make for a "captive" labor market in most instances (there are many exceptions I know, but for the norm this is the truth ...) ...
Is this what we want? To "out-task" all of our programming jobs to foreigners - not that I am against immigration of talented professionals, but this is not what is occurring - if that were true, than companies can "step up to the plate", and sponsor someone for a green card and/or citizenship ... what message does this send to our young and eager students (even older ones ...), who are preparing for a career? The impact to rates and salaries will be felt ...
I am sorry but when someone takes bread out of my family's mouth, it hits home in a passionate fashion ...
</rant>
AZspot
I think we should get more foreign workers, it will only help America grow, and if a foreign country can't appreciate their most dynamic workers, too bad.
America was built on immigration, and immigrants provide a much needed spark to the American economy. Think of how many products and businesses immigrants have launched, once they've come to a land where hard work is appreciated, not denigrated. I can think of the Indian that invented Hotmail, and Linus, too, of course.
If a foreign country can't find a place for an ambitious foreign worker, too bad for them. If their culture is caste ridden, or against strivers, or a socialist disaster, an ambitious computer workers aren't appreciated,they should come here. Too bad if that foreign's country GDP tanks, they should get rid of their old, quaint unproductive customs.
This is ludicrous. One of my coworkers is trying to get his visa renewed (in other words, helping fill the supposed "shortage" of IT workers). The agencies he has to deal with refuse to deal with him in an expedient matter. He's pissed off and I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't leave for greener pastures. C'mon, our government has to make up its mind: are we in a shortage (then take timely action on entry forms) or not (then why string em along?!).
Don't believe anything I say. I crash test crack pipes for a living.
I was talking in terms of SF Bay Area dollars. $60K here is about the same as $45K anywhere else... ;-)
Think about this critically. What happens if the labor market starts to bring thousands of people from overseas to work here? It means that if you want a job you can't get it because it's already filled. Rather grim in my opinion.
Respond to s
We have plenty of labor in the United States and we don't really need anymore.
According to whom? And by what standard? The people who want to hire these people clearly have a need for more labor, or they wouldn't go to the expense of importing them.
I want a fair and equal chance in my own country instead of getting shafted.
What about the "fair and equal" chance of those not fortunate enough to grow up here in the USA? Are there interests irrelevant simply because they don't vote here? You have more than a fair and equal chance. If you're like most of us in the tech industry, you have it ludicrously easy-- getting paid handsomely for work many of us would do in our spare time even if we weren't getting paid. It's the height of arrogance to pretend that we're a poor downtrodden class that can't afford to compete with a few foreigners.
I for one welcome more high tech workers to the US. If they can do useful work, they have every right to come here and make a living. Those who want to keep them out in order to further inflate their own paychecks are narrow-minded and selfish.
But a small minority of owners, this who have enough capital to *BUY* the labor and services of others, naturally want to drive down the cost of that labor/services. But that is not to the benefit of the vast majority.
THe rich ones have been manipulating the poor ones since the beginning of time with their propaganda. But if we all just realize that this is our business, then it all becomes much clearer.
eat shiat and bark at the moon
Well, folks, the giant software companies have done it again... and the quest for the disposable programmer with 2 years of experience continues. Face it, there is no shortage of programmers, there's just a shortage of cheap programmers. A major reason why so much software sucks, is because its written by some guy with his brand new AS in Visual Basic. There are thousands of 30+ (REAL ancient) programmers out there having trouble getting a job, because their resume doesn't win buzzword bingo. The HARD part of programming isn't happening to know the syntax of the latest hip code doo-dad, but rather in knowing how to think about problem solving. That comes from experience. People who understand how programs work have no trouble learning a new way to do the same old thing. Unfortunately, time-to-market/end-of-quarter thinking in large corporations impels managers to seek the cheapest, fastest solution... and it looks like its a foreign programmer.
Sorry for the rant, but this REALLY bugs me
-- Rich
Free your mind and your Ass will follow -- George Clinton
When foreign goods are dumped on the US market, US comapanies scream at Congress for relief. But when foreign 'engineers' are dumped, what organization will defend the rights of the US engineer who is being dumped upon ? Engineers do not organize so they are easy targets. As an employer I welcome the arrival of the unwashed but educated, because it enhances my company's profits. But as an engineer I must protest what is one of the most egregious abuses of capitalism.
All right, another one of those stories where Slashdot turns into the American Xenophobic Society!!
Another chance to watch those who normally cry foul at the slightest threat to their own freedom turn into a bunch of zealous gatekeepers for fear of a little competition.
Ok. I'm a Canadian and I have to admit there is one thing I really don't get about US lawmaking.
What is with all the extra junk that US lawmakers put on their bills? Government spending and Immigration laws all in one? That just sounds crazy to me. If they were actually serious about debating the merits of each issue they wouldn't go around attaching their pet projects to ride the coattails of truely important issues.
Los que trabajamos aqui somos los chingones. Si andas pidiendo trabajo de esta manera, vales mierda.
Las cosas mas triviales se vuelven fundamentales...
Man! You screwed up. I have been in the US on an H1B for a year. I was able to buy a house several months ago, and I have had no trouble with credit (although to be honest the only credit I use is on my mortgage, since like any sensible person I pay my cards off in full each month and I have no desire to keep up payments on a Porsche).
Before you move, get an AMEX and/or Mastercard in the country where you live. When you get to America and have an address, ring the companies up and get them to transfer your cards. They'll do it.
Next, get a credit reference agency in your country of origin to write you a report. It'll cost about $3 most places.
Then get letters from your bank, mortgage lender, car loan person, credit card companies etc saying that you have always kept up with your payments, and that you are a good person to lend to.
If your bank in the US won't let you overdraw, move. Banks want your custom.
The most awkward thing about the H1B is that my wife and kids can't work here until I've converted to immigrant status.
Previous posts on this list claim that there is a glut of programmers. This is NOT the case. If you are a programmer having a hard time finding a well paying job in the US, you are either looking in the wrong places, presenting yourself very badly, or, probably just obviously crap at what you do.
StrutterX
I'm sorry, but in reality what companies do (have seen this done in MANY companies) is the following.
1. Company tries to find programmer to work for a specified wage (no one in the US will work for that low of a wage, lots of hours, crappy benefits, etc)
2. Company finally finds a non-US worker to fill this position. Then the fun starts.
3. Company advertizes job in some national publications (the more obscure and unread the better) and requires so many qualifications that an average programmer would not even bother for what salary is being offered.
4. Miraculously no one else applies for the job and the non-US person is hired (oh, those qualifications listed in the Ad are re-evaluated and 80% of them are dropped)
Hmmmm... all legal. Obviously then there must not be a problem since evrything is so nice and legal.
Signed - the tooth-fairy!
For goodness sake they have people live village idiots and Cletus the slack jawed yokel in India, Russia and the like too. You just see the competent people. It's fair when I can compete with Cletus and say Albert Einstein but is it really fair to have everyone like Albert taking my chances for a job?
Respond to s
What's wrong with looking after my own paycheck are we all running around saying how it's a dog eat dog competitive world? Well, if I can reduce the competition, than that's great for me. I don't want the jobs that become available at lower salaries. I want to get paid the most possible for the job I'm in. If you're under 35-40, you shouldn't even be allowed to reply about competing in the job market. For companies, H1-B isn't about getting the best workers, it's about getting the cheapest. If they can increase the labor pool, that's good for them (and only them). They can hire cheaper (and the are cheaper inspite of what the politicans & corporate execs say) than the more experienced (older) american workers.... This will be you eventually.
Slave Labor Not To Be Found
Bring Them From Taiwan
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Frankly, with employers being flooded with this kind of assclownery, I think my prospects for finding and keeping a good job are high.
---
I am the dot in slashdot.org
Make that "...harvest jobs that aren't paying the minimum wage so they wouldn't be legal anyhow, even if they hired citizens." And the Democritters keep pushing the minimum wage up every year.
This isn't quite like the attempts to attach language like "illegal to make hyperlinks" to methamphetamine-related legislation
Well, I'll agree with you there. This is a lot more on-topic than a lot of other riders.
--
"Open source is good." - Steve Jobs
"Open source is evil." - Microsoft
Sorry about that you see that's *temporary* for a reason then you can get back to doing whatever you need to do in your home country.
Respond to s
Tech job fairs become free-for-alls with hiring representatives using bear traps, nets and stun guns to get replacements
A girl who once glanced in the window of a Gateway store is elligible for tech support
Property values in Santa Clara drop to almost sane levels
High tech moves operations overseas, the next Wen Ho Lee may actually be working in Taiwan
Low math and science grades, across the country, are prosecuted
The NASDAQ hits 0 for the first, and last, time
--
Chief Frog Inspector
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Tech companies are _dying_ to maximise their profits by dropping all your salaries, using this bill... All arguments aside, I believe that H1B workers are entitled to 90% of industry standard rates. I accept there may be notable abuses / compliance to this, but the more people there are earning only 90% of the going rate, that's going to drop the average...
I'm in the UK, and the UK Government is trying to do the same, offering "fast track" work visas for tech workers... Tony Blair PM (an anagram of Tory Plan B - Tories are "the opposition") wants E-Britain, yet his government has yet to demonstrate an understanding of what is actually required (remember RIP?), failed (and expensive) efforts to update the passport office's computing systems, lack of accessibility of government resources on the net...
These lapdog politicians will be well out of the way when the any social problems 15 years down the road come to bite the present government, problems caused by a nation trying to absorb too many of another nationalities citizens too quickly.
Don't get me wrong, I think that mixing up our gene pool even more by migrant workers is a Good Thing, I just think it's being done too quickly, and for the wrong reasons.
That said, I've worked with Indian, Russian and Austrian workers, and they were all shit hot!
Strong data typing is for those with weak minds.
Strong data typing is for those with weak minds.
What's wrong with looking after my own paycheck are we all running around saying how it's a dog eat dog competitive world?
Because those evil foreign workers need jobs just as much as you do, and I don't see what business you have telling them that they should continue working shit jobs in their own companies so that you can continue getting nice fat raises.
Every company wants to hire cheaper labor, just as every customer wants to buy cheaper products. That's the way the market works. Excluding certain workers from the labor pool does help those inside the labor pool, but it hurts everyone else, including other workers, consumers, and the employer.
The "the evil foreigners are going to steal our jobs" line is xenophobia, pure and simple. There is no logical reason to exclude workers simply because they happened to be born in another country. Companies ought to seek the lowest-paid workers. It ensures that those that fetch the highest price go where they are needed most. If they can do the same work you can for half the salary, then maybe it's you who is over paid. And if they can't do the job as well as you can, the company that's hiring them will suffer for it in the long run.
As I said, there isn't a fixed pool of jobs. As the number of workers increases, wages will drop, and employers will hire more workers at the lower prices. This is the way it works in every other labor market (and in every market for that market) and there's no reason to think it won't happen here.
If programmers cost a hundred grand a company might only hire three programmers. If wages drop to eighty grand, a company might decide to hire a couple more. This interplay of supply and demand is what determines wages, and it ensures that everyone who wants a job can get one.
A sudden increase in labor supplies will cause dislocations in the short run, so perhaps opening up the borders all at once isn't the best plan. But in the long run I don't see why tech workers in the US shouldn't compete on an equal footing with those in other countries.
That's not the way the labor market works. In a tight labor market like ours, there are thousands of companies that are short-staffed and will snap up just about anyone with skills that applies. And even when those desperate positions are filled, there are plenty more jobs that employers will offer if salaries come down a bit. Jobs are not a fixed quantity. The labor market responds to supply and demand just like every other market.
There's more to the world than US tech workers. We need to look at the benefit to the whole nation, not just our own paychecks. No programmer is in danger of starving.