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H1B Tech Visa Workers Being Deported From U.S.
John Murdoch writes "Tens of thousands of programmers, database specialists, and other technical workers come to the United States each year on "H1B" visas--temporary visas for workers with in-demand technical skills. The key word in that sentence is temporary. Congress began the program six years ago, and the H1B visas have a six-year time limit--meaning that thousands of H1B holders are reaching the end of their visas, and they do not have any hope of getting permanent resident status. The Washington Post has an excellent story about the problem (click here for story as posted on MSNBC).
These H1B residents have invested six years of their lives here--they have homes, families, and careers here. There is a generally acknowledged (or perhaps, generally alleged) shortage of programmers and other tech workers in the U.S. The federal government is presently working with Congress to approve legislation increasing the number of H1B workers that can come to the U.S.--while simultaneously sending currently-employed workers home.
"
Dude, I read the article thoroughly. Why did they expect their stay to become permanent? Who told them it would be? Where in their contract did it say so? America is based on the rule of law, which is almost always contract based.
Where does their contract say they can stay indefinitely? In fact, does it not say specifically that they must leave after 6 years?
The rest of the world considers the 50 united states of america to be "america" .. then there is south america and canada.. you rarely even hear the term north america..
You don't travel abroad much, do you?
-- Sigs are for losers
I disagree. When we sing in English, what accent do we mimmick? Usually it is the American accent.
Try listening to the Pet Shop Boys. They're British, and they sound British! More British singers should sing like them! British singers who try to imitate the American accent are only doing so to make themselves sell better in the U.S., which, frankly, is quite sad.
Also, when I was in school, I was taught not to sing the rhotic R's (like at the end of words like "car", "fur", "buster", etc.). Which country's accent is known to eliminate most rhotic R's? Not the U.S.'s.
..and if you don't think so, you really don't live or pay attention to any major urban centres. There's a shortage of *everything* : from McDonald's workers to tech workers. Mr. Greenspan is consistently worried that we're going to see some psycho inflation because of this.
Immigrants usually are the reason we have a successful economy. They attract ambitious people. We like ambitious people, don't we?
-Stu
First a Disclaimer - I've worked both with and for John over the years.
The H1B visa problem is very real, but there are more than two sides to this issue. Some of the better programmers I've ever worked with were in this country on H1B visas, as were some of the worst.
Often times, the employers who bring in people on H1B visas treat these people as virtual slaves. The worst case of this was a woman who ended up taking here case to court. It seems he employer was sexually harassing her, and she complained. The company ended up shutting down, and she ended up deported.
That said, there are a lot of unscrupulous "Visa Brokers" out there. The promise their future employees "Yeah, the visas are always converted. Here, just study for these certification exams, and we'll get you in". In turn, they promise the companies in the us "I can supply you with experienced workers, cheap." Note: Not all of them do this.
The WORST case of this was AIG with Syntel. AIG decided to fire 4500 of their employees, and "Outsource" all their work to Syntel. Syntel brought in all H1B replacement workers, paying them below prevailing wage (there were fines issued). Further, the 4500 employees were told that they would get no severance pay unless they trained their replacements.
Luckily, I was in a different office (with 11 other people) and we were NOT let go. I had to work with these replacements. Most of these people were promised by Syntel that they would be able to stay. The few who DID have their visas converted to green cards left Syntel within a few weeks! Most of the replacements were horrid, and were being treated horribly.
Now, what should we do about this?
Simple - eliminated the H1B visa, and let a smaller number of these people in on green cards! Unless you are a Native American, you, or one of your ancestors, was an immigrant to this country. It's been one of our strengths. Remember "The Melting Pot"? We have to have it back. The people with these skills would be a terrific addition to our country.
Let's stop dangling a false carrot. Either let them in, or DON'T
-- 73 de KG2V For the Children - RKBA! "You are what you do when it counts" - the Masso
True. Then he would only be worth a couple of billion, rather than 50.
I really don't know how he would make ends meet.
Find funky gifts
You live on the same continent. Just for the record if I say American, most people I know would reserve judgement until I qualified that by specific reference so if for example I said "A bunch of stupid Americans arguing about semantics, it's no wonder they need immigrants to do their work!", I'm obviously referring to the US.
Seriously, I agree with you. I too am an immigrant, but in the Netherlands. Here if you have the required skill set (and IT is fine), then you get a 35% tax reduction for the first 10 years of living. I also get paid more than most Dutch people before the tax reduction takes effect ;-)
Back to the point. I am totally in accordance with you view that it is unfair that immigrant labour should be paid less, but I disagree with your point that these companies couldn't afford to pay the full market rates.
Find funky gifts
First off, I am Canadian and a minority at that.
I have also taken alot of philosophy during my educational years so I am familiar with your language.
Every single argument you have made
thus far has not been correct:
ad hominem =
Your definition:
"Ad hominem attacks involve disqualifying a party in the discussion in the eyes of third parties"
(which by the way is meaningless)
ACTUAL DEFINITION:
"Appealing to personal considerations rather than to logic or reason: Debaters should avoid ad hominem arguments that question their opponents' motives"
I would argue that no one here but you is indeed engaged in ad hominem attacks. Thus far you have no presented one iota of fact. Rather you have attempted to use language as your weapon. But language without substance is worthless.
Communicate (v):
1. To have an interchange, as of ideas.
2. To express oneself in such a way that one is readily and clearly understood
(and others)
It is unfair of you to use your definition to claim superiority (and accuse others of fallacy)when this is clearly a conjunctive statement (i.e. both are true). There is no fallacy here.
Please back up your statements with fact.
And just for the record, I did immigrate from another country and now I am a citizen of Canada.
And being a minority I find nothing racist about the statements that have been made thus far.
Feel free to criticize, I can hold my own.
There is an interesting essay by Dr Norman Matloff of the University of California at Davis called Debunking the myth of a desparate software labor shortage.
Here in the Netherlands we have the most stable and best running economy of europe, with an aweful lot of jobs open for high tech people, and what's nice is that 70% of the working force is working at offices, not in factories. So high tech IT specialists are wanted _always_ and are _important_ :).
--
Never underestimate the relief of true separation of Religion and State.
Maybe they exist, but I have also yet to see an exploited H1B employee. Everywhere I have worked, H1B's got paid like everybody else, and human resources would press hard to convert them to green cards as soon as possible.
OK, I'm completing my PhD in AI. I will probably be applying for a H1B visa sometime in the next couple of years. While I like America, I have no desire to settle down there (i.e. become a resident - I want to get experience there, not a green card). Being rather highly educated (as well as a moderately good programmer) I think I will genuinely contribute to America by sharing my expertise with whatever company (or companies) I work for. Now, complaining about low-skilled workers undercutting your jobs is all very well, but ditching the H1B scheme altogether would also block out people like me that can make a genuine contribution.
As always, things are never as black-or-white as we would like.
After a few hundred articles on linux vs. windows, both sides were so tired they were practically falling asleep on each other's shoulders. A lively new theme is needed to get people foaming at the mouth. This has manifested itself in the form of the H1B visa story, which gets repeated a few times a month.
/. means two things - lots of posts, lots of points. Follow these simple steps to get yours.
It brings out emotions. Strong emotions. People get as ready for a punch-up as a drunken Pat Buchanan facing an illegal Mexican immigrant auto-plant worker flung in front of him after a day of polling results.
Strong emotions on
1) Mention "slave labor". This is a no-brainer. But you gotta be early, coz it gets repeated to death. The law of diminishing returns applies to the use of the term "slave labor(1)" as much as it does to SMP scaling. If you're REALLY early, use it in your title, and watch the karma $$$ roll in.
2) Use these phrases - "retrain", "older workers", "cheap" used in a combination with "import", "third world", "India", "China", "sweatshop", "indentured". DO NOT just type them randomly - moderaters aren't that dumb. Use them in full sentences, the effort is worth it.
3) Two words - corporate greed. To moderaters, it's like honey to hungry bears. Rant about evil companies. For a nice touch, throw in a few references to MS (don't use the $, they'll think you're so passe), Sun, Oracle, Intel, etc.
4) Personal experience - Mention personally knowing someone on an H1B living in a basement with rats and subsisting on bread and water. With 20 other H1B immigrants.
5) "There is no shortage of tech workers." Yeah, you can just cut 'n paste that. It's like pushing buttons. Easy as pie.
6) History - Make some mention about the founding fathers, or how cheap immigrants flooding in is contrary to all that America is about.
7) Facts - You don't have to know anything about immigration law to talk about it. In fact, most immigration lawyers don't. Guess what, their clients never complain if they lose. Make up statistics as you go along, use terms like "half", "a quarter of", "4", "3", well, just type in some numbers in a plausible looking sentence about H1B workers.
8) The old days - Say something about the old days, when it wasn't like this, and people had enough skills to hook up a telegraph pad to an old mainframe and make it play Quake on punch cards, and how all these new cheap school kids and foreigners just have it so easy, and are destroying everything. This stuff works, trust me.
9) Linux/Linus/GNU - Try bringing up this stuff somehow. It helps that Torvalds is a foreign worker, but DO NOT use the above strategies if you try this approach....
10) Opposing views - This is a risky approach. You can defend foreign workers, but keep in mind that it's like defending Windows on slashdot - the odds are against you. If you choose this path, be sure to say that you have been trying to hire qualified people and can't find them, or make a convincing argument about the structural flaws of the INS, or describe the complex nuances of the cross-continental exchange of skills in a globalised economy against a backdrop of xenophobia, labor laws, and antiquated immigration policies. Bonus points if you do this as an AC and win.
w/m
(1) If you are weaned on British English, remember not to spell it 'labour', which will make you stand out as an immigrant worker yourself, casting doubt on your integrity and raising accusations of trolling.
They can not fire you in favor of H1B workers, nor are they allowed to offer a salary below your current one to these people.
There are strict regulations for applying for H1Bs and one of them is that the position must be publicly open for at least 1 month. Only after that time are they are allowed to fill the position with a foreign worker.
The usual trick around this is to ask for completly unrealistic qualifications which only this specific foreign worker will fullfill.
I was accused of xenophobia for this point of view, but the truth is I have had more contact with the Immigration and Naturalization Service than many people because my wife is Thai. One of the things I immediately saw about the H1-B visas was the fact that they allow people only long-term temporary residence in the United States. Think about this, if you moved to a state and lived there for six years, would you still consider your old state "home?" I wouldn't, I would certainly have made friends and set down roots after living someplace for six years. I'd want to have a say in elections (which would effect me) and otherwise be part of the community. People on H1-B visas are not given these opportunities. You could say that people on H1-B visas are "second class citizens" but the truth is even worse, they are not citizens at all. I assume, from my own life, that they must deal with the INS breathing down their neck, demanding that form X be filled out on time if they want to work and permit B recieved before they can travel.
The real truth of this is that it is cynical politicians using the economic fears and, yes, xenophobia of the populace to "divide and conquer." We should all accept the idea of foriegn workers, and once we've accepted the idea, we should realize that granting citizenship to these people (if they want it) is best for all Americans, not just the ones who were born elsewhere.
I can only compare people's attitudes toward H1-B visas, the ones who are glad that they are harsh and inevitably temporary, to the attitude of people who, upon hearing that a blight is affecting crops all over the country say, "Good, I hate those damn farmers anyway." The same percentage (in fact a greater percentage) of our workforce will be foriegn born whether we offer people H1-B's or citizenship. If a person is a citizen, they have the same stake in this country as the rest of us, the same need to protect our civil liberties, the same desire to see that good people are elected to public office. On the other hand, people who are denied citizenship have every reason to be apathetic. Whether they want to speak out on technological issues or not, their voices have less weight with people in power. They certainly can't help elect people who are savvy on tech issues if they can't vote. I often see people posting, "write congress about DMCA, write congress about UCITA," non-citizens have very little reason to care about such things, and would not be listened to if they did.
One last point: It may be that given the choice between an American citizen and an H1-B worker, some companies will choose the H1-B worker. It is possible that one of the reasons they choose an H1-B worker is because these people can be more easily exploited. (I'm not saying it is true, I'm just saying the possibility exists.) However, if the same two workers were both citizens, the only thing the employers could take into account would be competance. If you support citizenship for foriegn workers, you are making certain that you are competing for jobs based on competance and not on your prospective employers desire for the worker who is most easily exploited.
All the creatures will die, And all the things will be broken. That's the law of samurai. (Jubai, 1605)
The fact that you're from the US doesn't invalidate the possiblity that you hate people from the US.
WHAT paperwork? You can't even start working until you have the actual H1-B paper in hand!
Folks, Why favor high tech companies over other industries? Why should high tech barons be allowed to increase their margins by hiring cheaper labor, when other industries, say manufacturing or clerical work, cannot? Also, what are the limits to immigration? U.S. immigration is currently at historic highs. But the public infrastructure to support all these people, especially in places like NYC, is breaking down under the load. What is a rational level of immigration?
When the San Andreas fault decides to have it large, America won't have to worry about California anymore. The high cost of living will have a painful double meaning...
The US government ought to be encouraging companies to move away from that disaster-zone-in-waiting. Face it, if Silicon Valley fell into the Pacific, the US economy would be screwed for a *very* long time.
"Life is like a sewer - what you get out of it depends on what you put into it" - Tom Lehrer
the type of visa says it all. they knew what they were signing up for when they got here. why should we feel sorry for them now? personally i think the visa should be 6 months, not 6 years. little long to be "temporary"
abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz
Companies just don't want to pay them what they are worth.
Or they are thinking they are worth more that they really are. You know, getting MCSE paper won't make you a bit more of a good software engineer by itself, but you certainly will demand higher wage.
And maybe a programmer with 40-years COBOL experience is really not what the most companies want, as well as a programmer with 10-years Visual Basic experience. Or at least not what they are ready to pay additional big bucks for.
-- Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes.
In a democracy, the government is run by and for the people. The purpose of the government is to serve our collective needs; that's the reason we created it and invested it with power. Geeks are people, as are business types. (I know this latter may come as a shock to some. ;) )
The government, whose officers we elect and whose
taxes we pay, should be a tool for us to solve problems
too big for one individual or one corporation to solve.
Since the problem here is immigration laws, and an
individual can't change the country's laws
by fiat, this seems like a very obvious place
for a legislative solution. What else is the government for?
Vovida, OS VoIP
Beer recipe: free! #Source
Cold pints: $2 #Product
English is a pain in the ass to learn; harder, say, than french or german. There is a payoff, though, English as is generally spoken is more flexible and good at conveying complex concepts than many other languages. (Oh and, yes before you start, I do speak English, French and a little German).
Elgon
Typical liberal BS. They came here on a temp visa. They knew it was a temp visa. It is TOTALLY irrelevant that they 'invested six years of their lives here'. That was their choice when they signed up. They could have stayed in their own countries. I am SO tired of people not taking responsibility for their decisions. Are we now suggesting that because they decided to take advantage of an opportunity to work in the states using a temporary (fairly easy to obtain) visa they should now be citizens? This whole IT shortage thing is mostly bogus anyway. What H1B visa people are is cheap labor for the pimp sweat-shops, like Anderson consulting. They don't pay these guys crap compare to US works. It's basically a legal form of using illegal aliens to work the fields. The difference is that they really is a shortage of people willing to do manual labor. The real shortage in the US is companies not willing to pay for talent, or rather the pimp head-hunter companies wanting a bigger cut (come on - is it REALLY 40%-60% of the value of a job to find it? Does your pimp drive a BMW? Doesn't that tell you something?) It's really time we programmers get a union. *sigh* Sorry for the trip - this particular item really irks me. GameGuy
The Game Guy
I think they are getting rid of the h1b's with alot of experience who can ask a premium salary while legislating to get more h1b's with less than six years experience in the US who salary requirements will be more 'flexible'. With this policy all tech workers, foriegn and domestic, get the shaft.
The shortage is not of programmers but of intelligent, skilled developers. Frankly, the H1-B worker is acutely aware of what an H1-B visa means -- ***temporary*** employment and residence in the US. H1-B is not, and is not meant to be, a call for immigants. On the contrary, an H1-B worker is a misnomer. The worker does not own the visa. The employer does. As crass and unfeeling as it sounds, the nature of H1-B is made very clear to the alleged "immigrants." If the worker decides to move his or her family to the US, he or she is taking an extreme risk and must be responsible for his or her actions. It is not the responsibility of employers or real employees to accommodate the H1-B workers. H1-B workers are paid excellent wages (compare them to wages in their native countries) for the work completed. That is the only valid expectation for the worker under H1-B. In the cases I have seen, H1-B Visa worker simply are not adequate to fulfill the real need for skilled workers -- often generating more work for already overworked real employees due to lack of skills and (frequent) language issues on the part of H1-B Visa worker. H1-B Visa workers have a vested interest in grossly inflating resumes due to the alleged ability to "immigate" to the US. Both employer and the hard working employees suffer from the importation of "knowledge" workers.
It's not just the older people & immigrants who get shafted. I work in an area that pays nothing for IT people (starting below 20k/yr, which btw is pretty good around here). There are places here that need tech people, but they arent' willing to pay for it. And I think they are making sure the people who do come out of college with a tech degree don't start with the money to move elsewhere... Oh & before you say find a company that will help you move: most companies put distance limits on moving assistance unless you have really highly demanded skills or lots of experience (say ~6-8 years, but still work on minimum pay)... Heck I've even looked into working in Canada instead of the states (I live just across the lake from them anyway) & they make 25-30k starting which is frankly a nice improvement... Just wish their was an easy way to find out who to get setup over there as I'd be quite willing to move... US tech companies just suck. Their near sighted & obnoscous... Maybe they just need to grow up and face the real world where people want to be paid about like what their coworkers elsewhere in their field make & not expect loony things like 10+ yrs. exp out of a 22 year old (though I have been near that logn with computers I can't say I used NT or linux at 12)...
we are all invisible unless we choose otherwise
There's a difference between just plain meanness, which you describe very eloquently, and the frustration of paying a lot of money for school, only to discover that you won't get the kind of instruction and help you expect from your teachers, because they can't communicate with you. Teaching is about communication, and if you aren't able to communicate effectively with the students, then you aren't qualified to be a teacher, and trying to do a job you simply aren't equipped for is bound to be painful on both sides. But, in my opinion, you should never have been in that position.
First, make it work, then make it right, then make it fast, then, make it bloated!
That is not the problem. These are promised that they can get thier greencard if they come here. Alot of the H1B visa holders are trick into coming here by empty promises. Some are pais very well while others are paid about half of their American counter parts. I know this because I have friends on the H1B visa.
lf.o
As an employer I wont hire anyone whos not a US citizen. I dont want to mess with the H1 visa crap. I dont want to pay for it. I believe we have enough talented people in the US and that offices are already overcrowded without adding 20 more H1 visa foreigners. The tech pool may not be big enough but guess what.... That leaves the corperates with one choice, Pay better and make better working conditions or have empty reqs for people.
Having recently worked for a company where h1 visas abounded I watched the company fall apart. Salarys lowered, working conditons became restriced so the person had a 2 1/2 foot deep desk that was 4 feet wide. 17 inch monitors went from the back of the desk to the front. It was disgusting. Yet everytime i turned around they were hiring a new H1 visa. The company degerated to the point that when I left after 6 months I was considered a long timer with the average employee staying 3 months.
Now look at that from the standpoint of the employer, They could fill tech shoes all day with no cares so why change the working conditions because of the H1 visa program. When someone quit they just hired one or two more people to fill there shoes. If they were forced to hire american workers they would have to clean up the workspace, provide people reasonable workspaces and generally pay better. Being a technical manager means I normally get stock options, lots of them however said company was no longer giving them and told me there reason was because they hired so many H1 visas who were just happy to get the job. The problem is these H1's were using there 3 months there to go elsewhere cause the conditons were so bad.
If we throw out all the H1's I wouldnt care, Just means money for those of us who live here permanantly. The us is overcrowded already, we dont need anymore people moving in. We melted enough. Someone wants to come over for 6 weeks or even a year thats fine with me provided that we send someone to there country under the same stipulations at the same time. Balance it out, Dont influx our workforce, it just leads to worse conditions for us.
Presently I work for a company who doesnt hire H1's, Who had a defined policy of 1 person per 10X10 cube and provides all of our needs including food and beer. They want to keep the most talented and technical people, not bring in a few H1 visas for there year or six stint. Im happy to work in this enviroment knowing that tommorow im not going to have 20 indian oracle programers who dont speak english sitting in my cube with me.
--- Always remember. 99.36% of all statistics are inaccurate.
Okay, yeah so let's chuck all the foreigners out. How's about starting with you, unless of course you can prove you are purely Indian derived!
/abroad`;
Personally, as a foreigner (UK) who lived in the States as a kid (my father got a visa to teach and practice medicine over there) and who is seriously considering moving over there once I get my master's I feel that this sort of woeful ignorance just plain sucks.
if (!$talent)
{
$answer = `ls
}
Elgon
Did he say....Oh!
if they want, but the rules require you to return to your home country while they consider your application.
Not true. You can continue on an H1B while your green card is being processed.
If the 6 yrs are up, if you have completed the I-140 (the 2nd step after labor certification) AND your priority date is current, you can apply for a green card and continue to work indefinitely.
You can also opt to return home, OR go to a third country and get your processing transferred to the US consulate there, and apply for an immigrant visa over there.
Both options require the company to continue to sponsor your green card (since it's employment based).
You're right, though. It's a badly flawed system, draining tax payer $$$ on useless INS paperwork on a handful of qualified programmers when there are millions of illegal immigrants. It's unfair to the employees, to their families, to US workers, and it doesn't make any sense. Plus it creates racial divisions - the last thing the US needs.
Looking at the current thread of messages, especially from The "Anonymous Coward" ones, I would say there is noe wonder USA need to import it-workers. If the conversation and insigt proven in those posts, is an example of the general IT worker i the states, I surely understand the companies that searches abroad for personell.
If there are so many Americans who want these jobs, why aren't they getting them? The US has long been one of the countries most protective of its borders, and if there really were queues of Americans lining up to take these jobs, I'm sure that the government would not have gone to the lengths of organising visas and policies to encourage foreigners to come and work there. I suspect that the US, like my country, the UK, is actually facing a skills mismatch - chances are that the American citizens who want work and don't have any are not capable or qualified to do the work that is available. Don't accuse foreign workers who have, after all, helped enhance US productivity by working there of the failings that your country's own systems are responsible for: if you cannot educate your own citizens, then why not recruit foreigners who do have the skills that are needed. And it would be nice if they weren't treated like a piece of crap when the visa runs out - these people have contributed something to the US, unlike some redneck who lives on welfare, drives around in his pickup, and bitches about immigrants.
I have worked with people on H1 visas. Thanks to them we were able to get extraordinary talent, which we couldn't otherwise get at any price. They are still crap. There is no reason to withold real green cards from these people. The company held their visas over their heads like some ComBlock country from decades ago. I was ashamed to be an American and face these people.
1Alpha7
Live to be Moderated
--
Education isn't about learning a trade, or learning to run, (or write) circuit simulators. It's about getting a grasp on history, and nuances, and learning to see new situations and languages in the light of that history and those nuances. Most Americans don't get that sort of education. Neither do most Indians. Imagine that in this country English was taught only to children bound for Ivy-league schools. That's roughly how it is in India.
Back around the turn of the last century, about 5% of the US population got a University education. Today, close to half of the US population goes to something called a University, and still about 5% gets a University education. The rest get a trade-school education.
Nels
See what I've been reading.
Oh, how could I have forgotten.
Just call me Moe. Last name Ron.
- I settled down long enough to write this and have now collected far too much dust. Damn Dust.
If you have all this time to post "ditto" messages, my guess is that you are not really the kind of person that most employers are dying to hire...
The problem is that H1Bs are designed as a slave system. And the fix is obvious - remove the restriction of employment. The reason why H1B workers are paid less is that they can't leave the company.
Allow people to change jobs when they come to the US just like citizens and perm. residents can. The salary gap will vanish fast - and with it the incentive for companies to import just about anybody who can spell C++. If the salaries were equal, of course most companies would prefer to hire people who speak English without an accent and whom they can actually meet in person for an interview.
So only the true best and brightest foreign workers will be able to come here - like Linus Torvalds or some of my friends.
On the very next line, I said the same thing - if you change your employer, you need to get a new work permit.
What I meant by not working for one employer was that if you're on an H1B, you don't have to "work for that employer forever until they send you back", which is the impression many people have.
Yes, an H1B is employer specific, but you can change it if you want to work for a new employer. In reality, the best way to do this is to start the new one without telling your current employer, since it takes so long and the new job may be gone by the time you get the papers.
Finding two employers willing to do an H1B was easier when it took only 2 weeks. The time factor is the major thing in all of this.
There's also a difference between a visa and a work permit. A visa is only for entry into a country. Once you enter, so long as you keep your work permit valid, you are legally entitled to stay and work even if the visa expires. It just means you can't exit and re-enter on that visa.
What a nightmare this whole thing is.
That's rein, as in controlling a team of horses. Same deal with "keep a tight rein on it."
-Pete
Hey guy, it was satire. Satire on the 'all white devils are racists' viewpoint, and satire on all the grammar and spelling nazi's here on Slashdot.
Steve's Computer Service, Hobbs, NM
Are not other countries even more restrictive (not sure about this)?
I know some people who when they worked in Spain in the technical field had to work at US corporations, because there is no way to get a real work visa in Spain. This is probably due to their levels of unemployment.
How do other countries fair on immigration?
I transferred to the equivalent course in another department, taught by an American TA. I did just fine, though I didn't truly understand some of the important concepts until some time after I took the final exam. The important thing was, the essentials got through once I got rid of the communications barriers (in the only way I could).
Every major university has a foreign-languages department, with language labs. I see no reason why TA's whose English vocabulary or accent aren't up to par shouldn't spend time in intensive education or speech therapy as required to get them functioning well enough to get by with the native speakers. This would help the TA's, too. They're almost universally smart cookies, it wouldn't take them long.
--
Build a man a fire, and he's warm for a day.
Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once... the bitch.
I know this, given that I study a (vaguely)technical subject (Chemistry) and that I studied both latin and greek at school for a fair number of years.
Thus, using latinate words for technical stuff makes it easier to translate to other languages later on. Using English words and relying on idiosyncratic relations between them (byte vs. nibble, e.g.) makes it a pain to translate to other languages. So it's just a practical issue.Certainly that is another side of the argument, yes. It does not detract from my original point, however, that sometimes it is better to escape the associations tied to such words.
A good example of this is in France: bytes vs. octets. I've got to say it again, this is B.S. You can give no objective justification to such a statement. Believe me; I'm a linguistics guy. Or look it up yourself in an intro to linguistics course.
Hmmm. I was told this by a cunning computational linguist: you forgive me if I am sceptical of what you say.
Fond regards.
Elgon
The fact is, most tech jobs (sysadmin, programmer, web developper, etc.) are not 40hr/week jobs. They're demanding 60, 70, 80 hour per week jobs. And they're all "salaried" jobs, which means no extra pay for extra hours.
Now young people fresh out of college, and immigrant H1B visa workers have little else in their life to occupy them. Thus they are able to accept the abusive work hours employers expect them to put out.
But now something new has happened. The first BIG wave of IT industry workers are just now starting to reach their upper 30s and 40s.
What happens when a 70 hour/week employee gets married or has a kid?
Suddenly he or she has to cut back working hours to 50 or 40 hours per week as a responsibiliy to their family.
The employer sees this as MAJOR SLACKING OFF BY SOME OLD GRAYING BASTARD. So he's either FIRED. Or sees his salary cut 40% and quits because he can't support his family on a pay cut like that and is forced to QUIT.
The employer then puts an ad out and discovers that lots more older IT workers are applying than years ago when he put that last ad out. These older workers suffer from the same problem... having a life.
So suddenly the employer screams that there is a "shortage of IT workers" and demands the government allow more H1B visa workers in so he can continue his abusive employment practises.
Well, IMO, it's time employers are FORCED to play fair and give up their extremely abusive practises. Naturally they won't want to as screwing people over is highly lucrative and profitable.
Well, it looks like the party may finally be almost over. Can't say I'm not glad to hear it. And I can't say I feel any pity for poor staff strapped IT shops.
Believe me, they are not getting us any cheaper, in fact they have to pay relocation costs, lawyers fees for processing the visas, the cost of the visa itself and believe me my salary is well above industry standard. Look I understand that people are getting frustrated about their situations, but we're not the people to blame for that. I don't know what those students problems are but finding a job should not be one of them. Perhaps there are other reasons that they can't get jobs? As for getting people from Ireland cheaper, that's a pretty ignorant statement considering that many Irish people are relocating BACK TO IRELAND because the economy is booming there, quite a few of these are Green Card holders, not just H1-Bs. And it's nice to see that a country founded on immigrant labour has such open opinions...Actually I apologise for that last remark, with the exception of oyurself and a couple of other narrow minded individuals, everyone else over here is pretty cool. See the US even lets people like you live here, even though you are a bigot. Cool huh?!
So there I was. Naked. In a refrigerator. With a potroast on my knees. Smokin a cigar. That's when it got REALLY weird.
If they hate the US so much, why do they want to stay here? What they hate is the government that implied that it would do one thing, and then did another. This is a rather different thing from hating the country as a whole.
The problem with training Americans to do the job is that most Americans are too stupid and ill-educated to benefit from the training and get these jobs.
(For the record, I'm a natural-born American citizen.)
When American culture stops lionizing stupidity, and the American education system gets back to educating (rather than struggling to perpetuate established power structures), then maybe we can think about giving those jobs to Americans.
I spent a month in India recruiting programmers to come to the states on the H1 program. I didn't really feel it was right to do this but it was a once in a lifetime experience.
The problem is not that we have a shortage of workers. The problem is that companies can pay people who come from overseas LESS than they can pay a citizen. As opposed to paying a US programmer 80k or so a year (at least in Georgia I would gather) they can bring someone over from another country and pay them 45 or 50k. They won't bitch about salary because if they go unemployed, they have a hsort time period in which they can get rehired or they have to leave the country. Besides that, as one poster said, any other company doesn't want to bother with the visa paperwork.
"Fighting the underpants gnomes since 1998!" "Bruce Schneier knows the state of schroedinger's cat"
hey buddy.... can you give a link to some more info about that 2 year permit in Japan ? I would really appreciate that. Thanks.
No... its the thing between your ears.. yeah.. that one! use it.
Jesus chased the money changers and Fallwell raises money for the republicans.
Which is why I believe Christians should chase Fallwell out of their temple. (I'm Pagan, btw, not Christian)
Vote Nader.
Couldn't agree more. (I'm Dutch, btw, not American)
)O(
Never underestimate the power of stupidity
Never underestimate the power of stupidity
To err is human, to moo bovine
Only very rarely do I hear English (and everyone knows that Brooklyn English barely resembles what anyone else speaks).
- Richie
90% of the HB1 visas in the US are from India. The vast majority of the developers that come over on an HB1 visa have about a 3 or 6 mo. Microsoft certification course and fly over to work for $15-30/hr. They can do that because they don't mind living 10 to a house and sending every penny they save home. (taken from 5 contractors and 1 permanent employee for my company which are all Indian.)
Why does this piss me off so much? Because tech-staffing firms are charging decent American corporations which are too dumb or too desperate to pay attention $150-200/hr for these guys. The staffing company keeps the change. In addition, American developers who want to be temp or contract workers are not attractive to the agencies because we won't work for $30/hr.
Basically, staffing companies are raping American business and H1B visa holders.
Am I opposed to immigration? Absolutely not! I think american immigration restrictions are way too strict. Am I opposed to loosing my cushy lifestyle built on a lifetime of dedication to the magic glowing box? Of course I am! Would I bitch if it were just the H1B visa holders? Nope, I'd tighten my belt and take it as fate. But when it's a lowsy, stinkin' staffing agency I get pissed.
I say deport THEM!
My $0.02 will always be worth more than your â0.02, so
Slave implies they are NOT being paid. They took the job at the salary offered. Not much hope of claiming to be oppressed under those conditions.
If you aren't part of the solution, there is good money to be made prolonging the problem
Ball and chain? If the employed decides at any point they don't like the deal, they can violate the terms of the H1B visa and go back to where they came from for free. So obviously they prefer working under these conditions more than living in their home country, and it's not the American corp. that's making the conditions bad in their home country.
So, the "exploiting" company is giving the worker a better life (in the worker's opinion) than if the worker wasn't "exploited". How EVIL of them!
Steven E. Ehrbar
America is actually two continents- North and South.
And the "United States of America" i far more multilingual then even Canada, which offically hsa two languages (Despite the fact that most people DO speak English predominantly or at least very, very well)
And in case anyone is wondering.. English indeed does suck. It is a horribly twisted language lacking any way to even put some things to words and full of convoluted rules and things like silent letters. Know the 'n' sound? To make that you can start a word with so many different letters it's funny.. gn, pn, etc. I speak only English, but it is of my opinion that many things in the language just don't make ANY sense at all. Why do we need a synonyms and various other literary 'forms'? I mean, couldn't we have come up with ANOTHER way to handle "Their/They're/There"? Is there any reason that they all have to sound the same to confuse people?
----
ADVENTURERS! - ANTIHERO FOR HIRE - CARDMASTER CONFLICT
>And it's not just california. When I was in >pennsylvania there were two towns in my area >that was about 90% spanish.. it's easy when you >move to a new country to move to an area where >people are "like you". That's not the american >spirit.. Ummmmm yeah, it is. I live in southen Indiana. Everyone in my town has German names. Do you think that is coincidence? No, back in the 1800's when my ancestors moved here they moved to an area with Germans in it. Ever hear of Little Italy or Chinatown? When you are moving to a totally new culture why not make an easy transition by surrounding themselves with people who share your values?
http://www.popularculturegaming.com -- my blog about the culture of videogame players
Lazy North America listeners who need Taggert subtitles because stretching to understand a native English speaker with a Glasgwegian accent is too hard?
"Hey pal, glescas pure dead brilliant, so it is, by the way. Seez a shwalley o yer buckie."
Translation for human beings: "Sir, Glasgow is a wonderful city. Please offer me some of your drink."
Sadly, the west coast crew dominate the pool of 'Scottish' actors, and do the nation a disservice by giving the impression we're all like that. And it's Taggart, by the way.
Does my bum look big in this?
Which native speakers? Lazy North America listeners who need Taggert subtitles because stretching to understand a native English speaker with a Glasgwegian accent is too hard? Hell, I've known people from the States who've had to lose an accent or dialect because other people in their own country are bigoted towards people with say, Texan, Georgian, or other accents.
For that matter, English is one of the official languages of India; many Indians grow up learning English as a native language.
Man, you sound exactly like me. I think our problem is probably a serious lack of self-promotion skills, and an unwillingness to lie to get a job.
Of course, that could just be me :)
"Free your mind and your ass will follow"
lead to things like this:
http://www.lionblakey.co.uk/
which is not a bad thing...
--
Peter
When they were recruited overseas, do you think the company said "we're going to wait until you get roots set down in the US, then dangle our ability to get you deported so we can treat you like and indentured servant."
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
"Nowhere in the U.S. Constitution ... does it say "shareholder" ... "
I suppose you know whagt "defacto" means?
eat shiat and bark at the moon
Neither double negatives or ending in prepositions have ever, ever, ever been forbidden in standard English. Read Shakespeare, Churchill, Fowlers, and the OED. The only people who assert this are those who don't have a fucking clue what they are on about.
Double negatives have been a part of good English going back to the founding of the language; there are extant examples of Old and Middle English use of double negatives in scholarly writing of the time. The notion that split infinitives, double negatives, and ending with prepositions shouldn't be part of English is the creation of a group of people trying to engineer English to be more like Latin in the Enlightenment era. it is a complete load of bullshit, sadly perpetuated by those who know enough to be dangerous, not informative.
Thats an exelent point but it raises the question: How do you construct a resume that shows an ability to learn? One might argue that there is a responsibility on the part of the job seaker to make sure their skills are up to date. That would show that the job seeker CAN learn new skills and also has the drive TO learn new skills. Once the seaker has done their part you can put all the applicable TLA's on your resume and be prepared for an interview.
Have a look at an issue of the linguist list from 1995 here.
Known as the Muhlenberg vote, it was an attempt by a group of Germans to have all Federal laws printed in German as well as English. From waht I can gather there was a vote on ajournment of the discussion which was carried by one vote, the final result of the discussion was unrecorded (but I can assume it failed!). The story since seems to have acquired urban legend status that the overall referendum on an official language failed by one vote, beleivable since at the time there were a fair number of German speakers in the population and there most wanted to assert their independence from the Brits.
Good story though!
My wife and I are currently thinking of a sojourn in the US for a couple of years (we live in the UK now).
I already have a job offer with a US company (software).
My question is : Can the wife of a H1-B visa holder work or would she have to apply for her own visa? She's a Biochemist so she shouldn't find it too hard to find a job : But could she take one?
Since we're only planning to stay a couple of years the time limit is no problem.
Canadians (and Mexicans) don't have to worry about this type of visa. We qualify under NAFTA for a special type of visa that is renewable indefinitely every year. Furthermore, we can apply for the visa at the point of entry as long as ourjob description is an official list and we have a job offer letter. As simple as that.
:)
And yes, Toronto is a nice place to work.
Uhhh...I hate this argument...everywhere is a nation of immigrants, excepting possibly one place where possibly life on earth originated. Just because the colonization of the US is more recent does not make it any more of an immigration founded country than anywhere else.
I'm the big fish in the big pond bitch.
There is racism all over the world, actually, but you'd be hard pressed to find less than exists in the US. Here, large numbers of people of many races live and work together and minority rights are protected not only by law, but in the hearts of the average citizen. We're not perfect, of course, but it's such a good place that many poor Hispanics, Asians, and blacks are willing to risk their lives to get here. Rich ones content themselves with paying bribes. But come they do, and it makes sense: the places they come from are generally hellholes, where individual rights are not respected.
They knew the risks when they took the plunge.
It's like joining the military and then complaining that you are in the military. Hello?
They pay the taxes and they enjoy the bennies. They can go home with a fat wallet and start their own business or train others in their home country so they don't have to come to America to get a good education. Who knows? Maybe in a decade, American students will go to Bangalore to learn good programming skills.
If you aren't part of the solution, there is good money to be made prolonging the problem
The fallacy of that analogue is that your examples are only applicable to U.S. Citizens. That's the point, the INS says, "Hey, you can come on a TEMPORARY visa, but you are not a citizen or a permanent resdent." This means that all teh rights afforded a citizen are not automatically transferred to a *citizen of another country on a temporary visa*.
I have a lot of compassion for the problem that exists, but the fact that this was all part of the deal is incontrovertible. They are not eligible for "Equal work - Equal pay" protection, because they are not a citizen. Certain other rights are transferred to their stay, but all can be revoked unilaterally by the U.S. Government. It is a terrible thing to do, and I think it is swarming with ethical issues, but the bottom line is that it was part of the contract.
Also, to call H1-B workers indentured servants is hyberbole to the 10th degree.
We should be sympathetic to their plight and supportive where we can, but accountability lies with all three parties (worker, employer, U.S. Gov't.)
Marc
Linus is on an H1B visa. I recall reading an article about his visa troubles about a year ago.
LInus was on an H1B visa, just like 100K's of other techies from all over the globe.
He applied for a Green Card under the alien of extra-ordinary ability, and that process was delayed for many months. (I know this, because I was in the exact same boat as Linus).
Anyways, to cut a long story short, the INS finally started moving on these greencard applications, and by now Linus most probably has his greencard (I do!).
This is not to say there arent nuances between the languages. The Brits and Aussies have alot of slang we dont and guess what, We've got more. I heard some kid saying something was tight which I took to mean good. Now an english or aussie who had not been here for a while would have probably had to stop and ask what that meant. Doesnt mean that they cant communicate, it means that cultural nuances and slang enter in the language.
If your a visitor in a foreign country its polite to say "My x language is not real strong, could you speak a little slower." When I was in the neatherlands for 2 weeks I was asked that a few times and took no offense. When they came here they asked the same thing and no one was offended. Communication means adjusting to the others needs as much as possible. Its about getting a point across and If you come to the US and only speak arabic or cantonese you are incapable of communicating beyond simple concepts such as pointing and drawing. Babblefish is a great tool for the net but until they give me a real babblefish face to face in different languages doesnt work.
--- Always remember. 99.36% of all statistics are inaccurate.
Touché.
Seriously though. I do want to work in the US, although not because I want to get a green card, more because I would like to broaden my horizons. I certainly wouldn't work for a crap wage - here in the UK I will probably get a reasonably well paid job out of Uni. Getting paid an extra few quid doesn't really mean that much to me.
Elgon
I don't think that's true. I am working right now with several people who are getting or who have gotten their Green Cards after having been here on an H1-B first. They did not have to leave the U.S.
-- OpenSourcerers
What's wrong with someone getting a good education in the USA and then going home to help your compnaies economy? Contrary to what you think its not hard at all to have a decent programming job in India or Pakistan sure the $ values is not much compared to what they would get in the States but since evehting is so much cheaper they can still have a 1st world like standard of living. I understand people who fled their country for fear of prosecution but the rest? People who are true patriots of their countries woulkd only welcome if USA stopped all immigration including the infamous green card "lotteries". Vladimir. Vladimir.
One last thing - wasnt that piece about California about the working population? Wasnt it that the percent of white men in the workforce dropped below 50%? While i am your basic WASP, ok maybe not protestant, I dont think this survey would matter much. Id like to see the survey where they say percenatage of US citizens in the workforce. Not percentage of White folks, yeehaw. Makes us sound like a bunch of illiterate rednecks. For hundreds of years the african americans and chinese were brought in, first as slaves, then as menial labor. They have every right to a job we do. The American indians were here first, same applies to them. Its not about "Hey, whiteys got have more jobs". Its about the US citizens having jobs. Many, and I hate the word "Underprivileged" people who probably be significantly better off if it werent for the foriegn incursion of H1's.
--- Always remember. 99.36% of all statistics are inaccurate.
I think that this is called, à la PJ O'Rourke, 'Double immigration policy on the rocks'. Oh and by the way, look up the difference between there, they're and their. Elgon, Foreign Bastard who _can use the English language.
I know someone who's waiting for a green card. The problem is not that the INS don't process applications quickly. The problem is that the applications are coming faster than the government wants to let people into the country. You basically have a backlog, or queue of people who have their greencard applications approved, but can't be let in yet.
My girlfriends consulting company pays most of the consultants over 80k, some over 100k. They're mostly H1Bs. I'd hardly call them "exploited" by any stretch of the imagination. It's not like you're getting indian born rocket scientists getting paid 10k or something. These guys have salaries that are astronomical by American standards.
I'm guessing most of the slashdot readers are fairly tolerant people with liberal outlooks. Very few people would be in favor of state run racial discrimination, or inequal treatment for men and women, or any other system that divides people up into groups. So why then am I seeing so many people saying "H1-B workers are taking our jobs"?
Because some of us are aware of the cultural differences of our "guest" workers. This isn't the same as 19th century immigration, importing Italians to work in the shoe factories of New England or Poles to work in the Chicago packing plants. Those people were part of the Western religious, social and political tradition and were able to quickly integrate (in a generation or less) into the broader fabric of society.
The workers we're getting now are NOT part of the western social and political tradition. They're from cultures that have radically different outlooks on politics and human rights. They don't integrate well with western social or political traditions. Many of them import their local political and religious struggles into the US (Islamic radicals bombing the World Trade Center, for example).
I'm not a racist -- I don't pretend for a minute that the racial composition of these people is significant. I DO think that their cultural traditions are a threat to the social, political and religious freedom that the US represents. Anyone interested in the Hindu Caste system? Sh'aria? Female Circumcision? Religious government? These are the CURRENTLY PRACTICED cultural traditions that get brought into the US and soft-peddled by liberals as multiculturalism.
I think that these are instead primitivate, anti-democratic social practices absolutely antithetical to the values that America stands for. That the practitioners of these un-American values have to leave when their H1B visas run out, I say good riddance.
Yeah, but you try to discard the bad stuff and keep the good stuff.
If you make a religion/language/race "official", then it has the practical effect of making the minorities disadvantaged and likely to be oppressed in some way. While the founders of the US made many mistakes like slavery, some of their ideas were pretty good - such as the separation of church and state. Basically - the govt. should not establish a particular religion.
I used to think making English the official language would be a good thing, since it promotes a standard and makes things easier, but on further thought, look at it this way. If you don't speak english, not only are you at a disadvantage, but you and your kids will be stigmatized in society because they don't follow the "official" govt. sanctioned cultural medium.
The likely abuse of a language standard is similar to that of a religious standard - if you're not one of us, you are not good for our society.
I also think not having an official language is cool from an abstract point of view - you're mature enough as a society to believe in an abstract principle and letting culture flourish without imposing a standard, instead of imposing a standard cultural tool. After all, most of the languages we speak today are the result of a lot of linguistic exchange, and all languages are richer for it.
w/m
I met a fellow from India who had the whole thing wired. First you go to CANADA. Apparently it's much easier to get Canadian citizenship. Then you can work or go to school in the US with no problems. Then you can work on your green card or whatever with the comfort of knowing that at worst you can always live in some Canadian border city and commute to work.
... that INS needs to sponsor some H1Bs for foreign, skilled paperwork-pushers. :)-
---------------------------------------------
-*- Any technology indistinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced -*-
I'm of German decent. If I say someone from Germany can't speak very good english and that their "communication skills are bad," how is that racist? One person of european decent calling someone who still lives in the same country a poor communicator is racist? I don't think so. It may be narrow minded or just plain wrong, but it has nothing to do with race, it has to to with language. I'm sure that there are "white" people who have been born and raised in Japan and speak very little english. If I said they had bad communication skills because they speak poor english, would that be racist? No.
http://www.popularculturegaming.com -- my blog about the culture of videogame players
Granted, this still won't get past those headhunters who use a simple search criteria to screen potential candidates - but it does bolster your chances if and when someone actually reads your resume and/or cover letter.
Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
Inspite of the mass hysteria, employers can't pay anything they want - they have to legally state how much they pay and this has to be approved by the DoL (dept. of labor) BEFORE they grant it.
This is quietly violated by a lot of consulting companies by not paying the H1B people who are on the bench.
I'm sure many people will say that these H1Bs who are being exploited should go to the authorities, etc. But you must look at this stuff from their perspective: they are often from corrupt countries where going to the authorities is most often not an option! So they quietly grin and bear the abuse!
Get real and stop looking for a 'hate law' problem (GRRRR) What we don't want is a faked labor shortage used to get cheap labor for pimp contract companies. What we don't want is someone who KNEW THE RULES when they signed up whining because they have to leave the country. What we don't want is a law that is designed to drag down our wages. Take your race BS and shove it. Good god racism is such a crutch.
The Game Guy
Yeah, and TN-1s suck. I can't get into the States, even though I'm a) Canadian, and b) literally one of the few people on the planet who can do a certain job. Why? Because I don't have a university degree. Why don't I have a uni degree? Because I wanted a job, not an education. So I went to College to learn computer programmer/analyst, until such time as the job offers started rolling in. Then I dropped out and never looked back. But because I don't have a degree (and I personally think that university degrees are superfluous for what I do; my buddy with a PhD in Computer Science can write an A.I., but he can't admin a database.
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
I don't believe it. I'm hearing this a lot, but it's not what I'm seeing myself.
Just this morning, the FedEx man arrived with a job and H1B offer for me in the USA. I'm nearly 38. I've got 15 years experience in programming and they've offered me a 6-figure salary, doing EJB, JSP and things like that -- none of which I've done (exactly) before. My (phone) interviews were full of "do you know X?". "No, but I know Y and Z, which are similar".
I just don't see any evidence for "anyone over 25 years old is obsolete" or slave wage rates being paid or unwillingness to do retraining or anything like that. Maybe I'm just blind, but everything I've seen indicates that $100k+ is still regarded as a good salary in the USA -- certainly the article that kicked off this discussion seemed to think that a couple earning six figures between them were doing OK. So, how am I being exploited? I'd really like to know before I sign...
I fail to see any good reason to move from Canada to the US. There is really not so much of a difference. And local beer is much better.
-motek-
I would like to die like my grandfather did - sleeping. And not screaming in terror, like his passengers.
Bullshit bullshit bullshit. Christ I am so pissed today. It's cheap labor and nothing more. I am so tired of America taking care of the world like this. There are plenty of people here that could do the work but companies are too fucking cheap to pay. It doesn't matter how goddamn skilled someone is. It doesn't matter how goddamn motivated someone is.
Don't tell me America is supposed to take care of the world and "that's not what the country is supposed to be about". The rest of the world is LAUGHING at us because we cave in to every little thing to preserve our precious place in the world. We try to please everyone and you all know that doesn't work. I'm tired of the US making concessions for everyone in the world but its own citizens. If I go to work in another country I am expected to learn the language. No one makes any concessions for me. I'm tired of having to CHOOSE english as an option at an ATM. I live in the US for chrissakes what fucking language do you THINK I speak? I'm tired of alot of things.
If the internet access were cheaper overseas I would move there. And I would learn the language first.
And don't try and pull a race card or a xenophobe card either because it doesn't fly with me. Being nationalistic does not a racist make.
"Fighting the underpants gnomes since 1998!" "Bruce Schneier knows the state of schroedinger's cat"
...but it certainly harms the reputation of the US as being trustworthy and welcoming to foreigners.
Ever dealt with the INS? Having observed the bureaucratic terrorism my wife suffered en route to attaining her citizenship, I can assure you that foreigners have no such delusions about the U.S. Case in point: the INS releases no telephone numbers. Everything must be handled either by mail (in which case they simply never bother responding to you) or in person (show up early, wait 4 hours in line, maybe be told that you should come back "in two weeks" and the matter will be "straightened out"--two lies for the price of one...a dozen iterations later one is led to wonder why anyone even bothers). All this for the dubious honor of intoning pithy jingoism to an examiner and suffering whiplash from the DOJ's jerking them around, losing their paperwork, suggesting a week before the swearing in ceremony that they begin the naturalization process anew, etc. No, I think it is safe to say that foreigners, in general, learn very quickly that the U.S. has institutional bias against them. YMMV, but not by much, I'm afraid.
Point 1:
Most of the land in the Midwest is farmland, reservation land, etc. I personally, as I have stated before, do not wish to live in a shithole. Why are you all so concerned about these workers that you'll destroy the environment and cause so much pollution that it makes life here impossible?
Point 2: Uhh... 2%? That's a blatant lie (No, not on your part). I could walk around Atlanta and find more than 2% of the population out on the street.
Point 3: How does the flood of cheap mexican workers INCREASE the job pool? They don't start businesses. They lower the average working wage. Their children are lazy (But I'll freely admit that the parents work their asses off). The money they earn here isn't cycled through the economic system, they send it back to Mexico. If you don't believe THAT, then you should check out your nearest Western Union on payday.
This signature does not exist. It has never existed. It is all a figment of your imagination.
Cheers a bunch, because I live in the UK I'm a racist. 'Trouble does not come from kikes, slopes, niggers or white capitalist pigs - it comes from the heart.' Holidays in Hell, PJ O'Rourke. I am not a racist, although racism here is prevalent in some sectors of society, particularly poorly educated males of all races. Next time you open your gob, use your brain first. Elgon
Of course Euro's are racist, their white aren't they?
Steve's Computer Service, Hobbs, NM
I count none. I made an empirical assertion, which you haven't denied.
You are calling "likely" something that is entirely hypothetical, and not really supported by what facts there are. The history of persistent discrimination the US is entirely racial and not at all linguistic. Compare that to many parts of the world that are officially bilingual and suffer persistent and long-term strife as a result. Having an official language does not mean persecution of minorities. It means the government need publish only in English and need teach only in English. That was the de facto policy for a long time and it served us well. Your scare scenarios are simply that.
Training starts in grade school, with children being able to do basic arithmetic in 3rd or 4th grade. Many can't even in high school. I'm worried for our society. We are lazy and poisoned by marketeers.
The next thing to remember is to put next things next.
Oh, and the most frightening part is that one of the companies offered to let me telecommute. To America. American gov't needs to learn that lines on maps don't mean quite so much these days.
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
An explanation first, by all rights, I "should" be an anti-alien proponent but I am not, actually quite the opposite. And here's why and how I think a lot of this argument is based on people who are afraid of competition, don't understand what this country is actually based on and want everything for free.
As a Boy Scout I was taught from a very young age to love America, and then doubling up and being in JROTC taught me the same. I was practically raised in a para-military uniform. I even joined the National Guard while I was still in HS, matter of fact I spent my Junior-Senior summer in Basic training(That's Basic as in Hut-Two-Three-Fower, not If-Then-Else). As I hadn't actually experienced any of the world at that point, I was an extreme Xenophobe and believed that America should close it's borders and put guns on top of them. (BTW I already started my love of Computers in the BSA when I earned my Computing merit badge around 1988 or thereabouts :-) and helped fix Sergeants computers in my AIT immediately after HS graduation.)
After wandering around for a year after HS I went Active Duty. THIS CHANGED EVERYTHING!!! After spending a short tour in Bosnia I realized, #1 America rocks. #2 War sucks.
America is absolutely the best country in the world, even for all of it's problems. 99.9% of the people never have to worry about getting shot at, being starved, being raped by government order, being forced to work for the government. Can you imagine what it is like to wake up and wonder who is in charge today, and if they like the group you are in enough to let you live through the day? Many of these former Soviet countries are DIRT POOR and the only chance they ever will have to be something other than poor is to come to America! Most of THOSE WHO COME HERE ON THESE VISA'S ARE NOT FREE RIDERS LOOKING TO SCAM THE AMERICAN PUBLIC!!! If you were in their shoes where would you want to be? And if you are from one of these countries, you should realize I am not knocking your country. America IS the land of opportunity, that's why you're here. But, the only way we can truly grow as a nation and as a people is by continuing to welcome those who not only want to be with us, but who want to make our country prosper and share their knowledge with us.
I know many H1B's who are currently being manipulated by the system. People who came to America, with HIGH level degrees, who have studied for years with the dream of coming to America and becoming one of us and adding to our rich heritage. But they are stuck not knowing where they will be tomorrow, they are not much better off then they were in their home country. If it wasn't for these "foreigners" coming to America, I would still be working for a trucking company. I would never have ever tried to become a Programmer. I always thought it was for people who were super intelligent and gifted. IF these people who came from America were out to rape the American public do you think that they would spend the time sitting down with some Average Joe and teaching him how to program and think logically? NO, they would have been happy to see me toil at something I hated and never would have lifted a finger to intervene. All of this with no promise of ANYTHING in return.
I witness the suffering of my friends everyday. I know how hard they have worked and how frustrated they are with their hands tied. Why don't we believe and follow our own cherished words? Why don't we continue the tradition of a proud people with open hearts who know that the way to victory is not to become afraid and close-minded, but to welcome the thoughts and ideas of a varied people.
The point I am trying to make it that if you are afraid of losing your jobs to people who are more qualified, dedicated and harder working than yourselves. Then maybe you should re-evaluate your own dedication? Freedom doesn't mean that everything is handed to you, it only means you have to chance to succeed or fail, Freedom has nothing to do with the outcome except that you get to chose it. And that the whole idea of allowing people to come to America to only work for 6 years, then having to return to their country reeks of indentured servitude and turning people into mercenaries. These people should be given their due citizenship's because they have proven they want and can make America a better place.
Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe FREE!
free?http://www.ugeek.com/news/geeknews/jan2000/ge e2000320000988.htm
Freedom - it's the most expensive idea ever known I apologize for any ramblings I have made, unless they make sense, in that case. I told you so!
My hypothesis regarding monkeys and typewritters revolves around the concept of broken typewritters and smeared feces on
int CountBitsInByte() { return sizeof(char) * 8; } /* iirc. My C is rusty. I mostly do SQL these days. */
"The axiom 'An honest man has nothing to fear from the police'
Why is it that the proponents of "one nation under God" are so eager to get rid of "liberty and justice for all"?
historical correction: there was a *proposal* to use german, and it never would have flown. Even *if* it had had an actual chance of getting by Congress, it would have been ignored by the states--which at that point had all the power.
In short, there was *never* a real issue about language. Many things have been proposed, including Aaron Burr's proposal to paint the white house black. non-starters all . . .
hawk
That ain't racist, it's just reality. University's really should offer/require some form of English-language speech training for TA's who don't speak English as their first language.
Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
Wow, you finally, actually got a real racist to bitch it!
Pretty good troll, here, but you've pretty much driven the "racism" thing into the ground. Maybe you should try a right-wing troll next time?
--
There is no sin except stupidity -- Oscar Wilde
Uhhh check your info. Blanketting skinheads with the term rascist is a fallacy. The skinhead movement has nothing to do with racism. The nazi's and white supremecists may have adopted skinhead style, but that doesn't make true skinheads rascist. Do a little more research apart from watching the apathetic news media and ill-written movies.
I'm the big fish in the big pond bitch.
The shortage is of cheap labor. This reminded me
of an ad in a magazine for an engineering job.
This was back in 1980. It was looking for
an engineer with 20 years of experience and
the salary was around $5000 per year.
Perhaps it was exagerated as a request but
if you go thru head hunters you will find out
that a lot of companies balk at paying decent
wages to engineers or programmers. They eventually
got the congress to approve the flooding of the
market with aliens without giving them the right
to move to this country if they choose to do so.
The whole damm scheme should be killed and
let's go back to a more fair immigration
where everyone is back to the same level
playing field.
New Delhi becomes Silicon Valley, 2004. Won't happen. They tried this with Bangalore and the public works system couldn't keep up. In the two weeks I was in the city our hotel (Le Meridien) had no less than 3 power outages a day.
"Fighting the underpants gnomes since 1998!" "Bruce Schneier knows the state of schroedinger's cat"
However I got disgusted after two years of watching people get screwed over on their salary reviews, promotions, and other benefits because they were tied to their job. They can't quit.
The greed disgusted me. They were getting people with masters degrees for cents on the dollar from what they would pay anyone else. The entire program has led to economic slavery. I won't be sorry to see the program revoked for the good of the workers.
Dr. Fardook drfardook@evilconspiracy.com
He is a really pivotal member of the development team after 6 years, a really sharp guy. Chinese. Contrary to what I normally say on /. about H1B visas, he is very well compensated and valued by our company, and definately not an element in "downward wage pressure". When his visa expired, he had to leave the country. Fortunately, we have an office in Canada, and we moved him there. He still works with the same team, and we meet with him via teleconference three times a week (or more if necessary). It's a real pain in the ass, but technology has compensated somewhat. I wish we could have him back, because we rely on him so much.
On the Skywalker Ranch where the Storm Trooper Posse says:
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
Sounds harsh, but anything short of this would be a major loophole, and it would most certainly be exploited en masse.
We should all start trolling as Malda.
~Bout Time for another tea party.®~
Hear, Hear!!!
My hypothesis regarding monkeys and typewritters revolves around the concept of broken typewritters and smeared feces on
the TOEFL test is for writing/comprehension. My mother has a masters degree in Teaching English to Speakers of Foreign Languages, and she's had some experience in how these tests work. The unfortunate fact is that, like any standardized test, people can be coached to pass them without actually learning anything useful about speaking the language. I believe that one major problem for foreign TA's has been that they are taught to speak very slowly and clearly while they are taking the SPEAK test, where their full attention is on the quality of their speach, while in a classroom setting they concentrate on their subject matter and, sometimes, forgo any concern over their speach.
For some more information on the Test of Spoken English (which is a more standardized version of the SPEAK test, from what I can gather), check out the TOEFL.ORG site. Especially, look at the test questions, which have very little technical jargon in them and, in general, would not test the applicant's ability to speak well while teaching a certain subject, and probably require a relatively small vocabulary on the part of the testee.
Hey, H1b-ers you just gotta be smart about. You know this is coming. So if you want to stay, pick a good company. (This also works for changing companies -- H1b transfers take close to three months these days)
The company must
1) Sponsor green cards, get started asap.
2) Have international offices.
I just worked in Europe for my new company while waiting for my H1b transfer to come in. I got my US salary, and my housing was paid for. Got to hang out with my old friends, too. Now I'm back in the US. When my H1 runs out in about three years, I have no problem working in Europe again, on the same terms, if my green card hasn't come through yet. While in Europe you can vacation in your US home for up to three months. What a deal!
Anyone know how long a `business trip` can be: ie. work for european office/company but travel to US and do some work.
Off topic Question: at some point in the green card process you are allowed to stay, even though you have not received the green card yet. Anyone know when this is?
Hope this helps...
I do I do.
I'm in Costa Rica, and I'm learning Spanish as quickly as I can. (Mostly to help in chasing the beautiful Ticas, but still...)
-Pete
Not quite correct.
If you read the orginal Declaration of Independence:andYou see it specifically writes " united States of America" with a lowercase "u". Which means, America is the name of the geographic LAND.
The definition of the United States can be found in the Constitution :
Which means United States is the name of the LEGAL ENTITY. (Black's Law for "Legal Entity" states: "An entity, other then a natural person.")
Now the definition of U.S. citizen in the Bill of Rights you notice it also uses an uppercase "u".
Notice the and! Which means it is possible to expatriate (give or revoke up your U.S. citizenship) and become an State Citizen or an American.
And yes, I know Black's Law Dictionary defines American as "pertaining to the United States", but American != United States as I have tried to show above.
You might want to also read this link, which shows there are actually THREE definitions of United States
Please read before replying
Cheers
Dude, where the hell do you work? I've been thrown around so much for the past few years due to incompetent managment that I'm starting to think about moving to Huntsville. Also - what's your take on the FredEx layoff that happened last week?
Interesting,
I assume that you are talking about US. The startup I worked for as an intern over the summer was started by two comp sci students. The CEO is the same age as me and now worth about 1E6 times as much as me. Depressing.
Elgon
How else do you think they got that way? They didn't by paying too much for their labor :-)
--
I bow to a good comment. Although I was never educated in the American system I am often told (apocryphal evidence only, I admit) that it has eschewed much in the way of science and mathematics, rather in the way that science is on the wane here in the UK. When you have a vice-president who has made such great comments as 'Which planet are we sending this (Hubble Space Telescope) to?' It is definitely time to worry. Elgon
Could you imagine if Einstein was sent home after his 6 year H1B was up? WWII would have been a bit trickier to end, eh?
Because you can't, you won't, and you don't stop...
Wrong. First of all, A TN is only available for a period of less than one year.
You can only work as a "Computer Systems Analyst" - not a programmer.
And since there's no track to a Green Card, if you have a family, what do you do? Tell them they can never work, ever?
--- Jump!! Fire!! Bullet time!! - Lego version of the Matrix
INS does have that much of a backlog.
My wife just got her green card. We got married in early 1997. There is definitely at least a 3 year wait in the Cleveland, Ohio office. It's better in some areas and worse in others.
INS is the pit of despair.
Thanks for the outstanding article. The problem I have with the H-1B Visa is that I don't believe it is our governments business to provide a means for companies to get lower wage employees. The IT worker shortage has always been a scam. Companies with the resources should start training programs and have their new employees agree to length of service contracts to make sure the training company reaps the rewards of the training. Companies without the budget requirements to run training programs probably can afford to hire experienced programmers and they should. From what I have seen of the corporate development model the average programmer doesn't really need to have a large skillset, but programmers without a lot of corporate support do. Why shouldn't American citizens be upset over giving away good jobs and lowering their salaries? The people that came to the US on H-1B Visas should have read the CONTRACT (because it is a contract). However, I feel the best answer to this dilemma is to let the current H-1B Visa holders stay, but not to issue any more. I am for corporations, but NOT for corporate welfare.
/. regarding this issue. Racist, Nationalist, Anti-US etc etc... I feel that US Citizens should look into the issue deeper as there are valid reasons for wanting this program to DIE. I think foreign readers of /. should stop making blanket remarks about Americans being racist. I have lived in 3 other countries (Germany,Thailand,Panama) and visited many others for extended stays and the level of racism in those countries was even more visible than here in the USA. Fuck people...India, from what I have read, still has a fucking caste system. Just because it was outlawed doesn't mean it went away so anyone from any of the countries I have personally been to that says the US has a race problem...is right, however they should take a closer look at the countries they left first. Don't cloud the real issue (scamming the US workers). Our government requires that we pay taxes in order to support public education and I have been paying my entire working existence. Foreign people who say that the American education system sucks may be right, but then they really don't have the right to influence what we do here in the first place. To hear companies say there is a shortage when I and many others can prove that there isn't, is fucking bullshit.
I have read some disparaging remarks on
What the hell kind of contract exists by government mandate? The contract should be between the worker and the employer. The only reason the employer is capable of exploiting the worker is that the government sticks its nose in and places restrictions on the when, how, and why the worker crosses the border, and on how long the worker can stay.
Don't shrug this off as "they know what they are getting into". This is a condition manufactured by government coercion at the behest of large corporations. We have every fucking right to complain, and to change this practice.
--
> Nope. Marrying a US citizen CAN lead to citizenship, but first you have to have a massive background check in your home
> country sent to INS. Then you have to submit the wedding itself to the INS version of an IRS audit. Then you pay several
> hundred dollars and fill out two pounds of paper. Then you wait two years for an interview. The non-citizen spouse can
> then be offered permanent residency at that interview, which leads to citizenship in something like 5-7 years
Yes indeedy. And that is why I am extremely thankful that my employer-sponsored Green Card arrived 2 months before my wedding. It might have taken three years of anguish to get the Green Card through my employers, but from what I understand that pales into insignificance next to the pressures of having the INS examine every last detail of your marriage.
These workers got exactly what they bargained for. Having worked here, their skills will be in greater demand when they return home--leading to higher salaries.
Yes, there are crummy employers out there. Maybe we should reform the system to make it easier to sweitch employers mid-visa. But I find the suggerstion that the workers have been wronge to be, at the least, odd.
hawk, economist at large
one good thing about driving labor costs down (not trying to be a troll - just a d/a), is if you look at the living conditions in the bay area, all driven by obscene escalation in compensation, due to a fiercely competitive job market in IT, it's sheer hell. Few people I know who live there actually like it there, and they're mostly looking to move elsewhere, even if it means a pay cut. In some cases, even a 50% pay cut can mean an increase in the standard of living, if it also means lower rent, cheaper food, gas, etc., and a reasonable commute time.
One person I know just bought a home for $750,000, to reduce his commute time to 90 minutes from 120.
I know that there are IT workers in some regions of the US that are really getting the shaft (some poor admin I met a few years back, in Atlanta, was getting $18,000, he knew his stuff, but he was too stupid to know that he could go anywhere else and make twice that, or more.
On the Skywalker Ranch where the Storm Trooper Posse says:
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
There aren't many job openings for IT in Montana.
- I don't care if they globalize against free speech. All my best free thoughts are done in my head.
Yup. We built the railroads. We pick the lettuce. We man the 7/11 counter at 3 AM. Screw them danged furriners, who needs 'em?
Good old Alpha Al wants to grant amnesty to all the illegals, and ship the H1Bs back home. Nice moral lesson here kids, listen up. Play by the rules and take it up the ass. Break the law and get rewarded.
What I've noticed, and this is something that certain family members have dealt with in the past, is that techs get a rough time at the hands of HR people. It tends to be left to the HR dept who gets hired and how much they get paid. The dept doing the actual hiring usually have some input, though they should have more. How many interviews have you gone to where the HR person haras^H^H^H^H^Hinterviewing you pleaded ignorance of what the job actually entailed? Fire the HR dweebs and hire the techs, I say!
Just to clarify, you think that the U.S.'s population is going to double because of unrestricted immigration?
Actually, to be elegible for a TN1 you need a degree in the specific field OR 3 years real (provable) experience in that field. That, and the fact that you say you are the only one who can do a certain job (which is another perfect criterian), you are probably elegible. Sounds like all that you need is a TN lawyer who has a clue.
Agree with your first paragraph. We're deporting the *trained* employees, the ones who were talented enough to contract (for the most part) for 6 years, and then exporting that talent that the US companies trained (it costs $ and time to train employees) in return for opening up yet another *untrained* H-1 slot. While I agree with others that a H-1 visa worker has no inherant *right* to stay in the US beyone 6 years, it seems silly to deport the most valuable immigrant workers only to allow more untrained talent in.
Right. No, your other right. No, the other other right.
Non issue. The communications skills are important as measured in the environment where you're exercising them. My communications skills in English are excellent. My communications skills in French are abysmal. I wouldn't go to France, however, and complain that I wasn't being given a fair shake...
You can either do the job or you can't. Some jobs require you to be able to dead lift a certain amount. Some require you to be able to communicate in the language of your coworkers. This isn't complicated, nor is it unfair.
(my Hindi, Chinese, and Korean, incidentally, are non-existent)
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
Because most Americans don't want to live in California. There's plenty of talent in the Midwest and South, but these dot coms don't recognize that there are plenty of places with lots of unemployed or underemployed tech workers.
Bloomington, Indiana (where I live) has always had a shortage of tech jobs. We have a respected undergrad CS program at Indiana University (equals cheap interns who get better experience than being a pizza delivery person), we've got 80% of the population with a bachelors degree, and we've got median wages in the mid $20K.
Indianapolis has higher wages and lower degree rates, but they are still cheap compared to the coasts. And there's a glut of tech workers there too.
And in the age of telecommuting and being able to work anywhere, dotcoms and even established tech companies have been slow to move outside of their own brick and mortar installations or to even attempt having offices across the country. For all the more they push doing everything online, they want their employees right there.
There's more to America than California, the tech companies just have yet to realize that.
While I don't agree with someone basing something on appearances as a "scab" worker, how in the fuck would you feel if you were not chosen for a job because they would have to pay you more than an H1 worker? While this has never happened to me directly, I can understand the level of disdain someone would feel by having companies pass them over for a job because they can pay an immigrant worker 10 to 20k less.
"Fighting the underpants gnomes since 1998!" "Bruce Schneier knows the state of schroedinger's cat"
That's bull, you can't get a green card if your employer doesn't cooperate actively. It doesn't matter how expensive your lawyers are and how much money you spend; if your employer doesn't apply on your behalf, you have to change employers (which involves getting a new H1-B).
Honestly, a one-year sabbatical every six years is a lot cheaper and less hassle.
--
(This IIRC, has happened to one finnish NHL player, maybe Esa Tikkanen. Anyway, he got his finnish citizenship back later by an application.)
sigh
It's only bungling if you assume that they are supposed to process the paperwork rapidly and fairly. It appears to be so systematic, that I doubt the implicit assumption.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Appearently there was about 12-15 languages spoken at my former company. I only speak english. However I am an American working in America. The national language here is English. The business language is also english.
If you meet a client and can't communicate, you lost the client.
A lack of language skills that are appropriate for the country you're working is your problem, not the client or coworkers problem.
Dr. Fardook drfardook@evilconspiracy.com
>>I'm voting for whichever candidate promises to abolish INS/BP and grant citizenship to anyone who promises to shut the fuck up about how much better it was in the old country. Lol! Best comment I've seen yet! Elgon
Definitely go to Japan. I'm sure you will find the work rules there much more flexible than the U.S. . Also, the Japanese have historically treated foreigners much better than Americans.
Good luck.
Godwin's Law. YHL. HAND.
Ten years experience, or at least, that's what it was at the time. (2 years ago). We were thinking about getting me a lawyer, but I started working at a newly acquired Canadian subsidiary, with the intent of waiting a year then getting the L1 (I think) intra-company transfer visa. Then, fortunately, I realized that I didn't WANT to live in the States. :-)
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
As a foreign student at an American school, I agree fully. I don't think most Americans realize, however, how badly the INS misrepresents them. It is my strong opinion that the INS is one of the most hateful government-sanctioned groups of people in the Western world.
Any foreign citizen who resides in the US knows that crossing the border is dangerous. The INS goes out of their way to turn law-abiding, honest people into criminals. They are horrible human beings; the worst America has to offer, outside of the prison system. I won't bore you with stories... Just ask the immigrant in the cubicle next to you.
I have enjoyed living and learning in America, and have made a lot of good friends. Americans are warm, open, and welcoming. Despite that, as soon as I finish my degree, I'm going away and I don't expect to ever return. Thank you for your hospitality America, but living in fear of the INS is too draconian for my liking.
1) all visas are open to abuse. the H1-B actually has a number of provisions to protect the alien. in order to file for an H, you must obtain a Labor Condition Application. part of the LCA is an attestation that the employer will pay the alien the greater of either a) the actual wage paid to employees having similar experience and qualifications employed in the alien's specific occupational field or; b) the prevailing wage level (set by the state's department of labor) for the occupational classification in the area of intended employment.
2) US immigration works like this (this is my field), you tell the US why you want to come by applying for a visa type that most closely matches your situation. If your visa is approved, you are bound by the conditions of that visa type. The H1-B is a NONIMMIGRANT visa. By entering with an H1-B you are implicitly agreeing to leave at the end of the visa.
3) nothing prevents you from applying for permanent residence/citizenship once your here. the unfortunate thing is that most people don't realize just how long that takes in the US (3 - 4 years) to apply for permanent residence. Our dear governments feeling is that the laws are available and it's the alien's responsibility to find out. and plenty of people DO find out. trust me that the INS is adjuticating thousands of H to permanent resident cases as we speak.
He said "most", not "all". I'm not going to take sides, but there's a chance that you are misunderstanding what he said.
This whole discussion is quite amusing. I am from India, briefly lived in Bangalore, (which seems to be the Death Star as far as some members of this board are concerned) and am not on an H1B. There, I've got that out of the way. Why this disc. is amusing to me, is because I have had to trim my normal English vocabulary *considerably* to make myself understood in normal situations in this country. I have to keep reminding my wife that most of the English she uses will only elicit a "What?" from most of the people we meet and speak to in daily conversation - and that includes college graduates and "skilled engineers" who have grown up in the American education system. We get asked if we're from England ... how's that for using English? IMHO, the dumbing down of the American education system is continuing rapidly - when there are large numbers of citizens of this country, whose only claim to communication skills is a severely shrunken vocbulary of English, I think it's time to stop saying "Screw the immigrants because they don't speak English".
And since I also want to make the point that English=Education is a flawed equation, I'd end with an anecdote about how my wife met an engineer, educated in the US, who had no idea where London was on the map. Unless, of course, you redefine education to encompass nothing outside the United States. That is exactly the kind of the thinking the Asian economies want you to indulge in, while they learn to do your jobs better than you.
I work for a major computer corporation. Most of these workers being brought in on the H1B are being brought in as temps, because it is cheaper than highering full-time employees. Qualified workers are being turned away because they want stable employment, not a temp position, and employers don't want to pay for it. From what I have seen these H1B's are little more than a way for corporate America to bypass its citizens and go for cheap foreign labor. All of these workers knew that their visas were only 6 years long, so what is the big deal. They agreed to come under those terms, now they say its unfair? They knew what they were getting into from the beginning. Finally, I work with many of these individuals. For the ones that corporations want to keep, the corporations have hired lawyers and arranged for them to get green cards already a couple of years ago, so obviously the ones who did not have this happen for them simply did not make the cut.
It's only "common" for the people who waited too long to apply. Regardless of the average wait time, they have 6 years and I am sure that at some point a friend, coworker, official, etc etc informed them of the wait time for a green card. If they didn't already know it coming in, that is...
------
Let me give you the lowdown
ksheff wrote: Yes the H1B people are a lot cheaper. Why would any company go through the trouble of importing people and put up with the communication problems if they weren't cheaper. My manager would like to hire more permanent US employees, but due to budget reasons, he has to get Indians. I'm an H1B person, and I'm NOT a lot cheaper. I'm one of the highest paid technical people in my company. The company went to the trouble of importing me because they simply couldn't get ANYONE qualified to do the job here. They spent a fortune in advertising, and still couldn't attract the right people with the right skill set. Don't assume that H1B people are cheaper. I didn't take a job away from an American - too many of you just didn't want a good paying job in a place that gets winter. I'm damn happy to be here even though I can't walk on a beach in the middle of January.
1: I'm not even going to get into how to better use farmland, that'll just be way off topic. But how can you say that people immigrating to this country is going to destroy the environment and cause more polution?
2. Just because someone is on the streets does not mean they are unemployed. And like I said before, how many of those people could get jobs if they really wanted to?
3. It increases the available work force. This does not increase the number of jobs, but there are always those jobs that no one else wants, but must be done anyway. As for your laziness comments,etc, those are all typical stereotypes, not facts.
jfern, If you're willing to move, you can find plenty of work. If not, may I suggest you: 1. Become a "Head-Hunter" specializing in people who are willing to move. 2. Setup a Software "backoffice" for companies in the NYC area that need "cheap tech labor".
When I was looking for a job in Indiana, with a few years of HP3000 Cobol & Powerhouse experience, I was very fortunate to find a manager who gave me a chance in an AS/400 shop - my background was with HMO's, but this was a distribution & retail company. This manager realized that I had a history of learning new packages and languages as required, so he knew that after a few shorts weeks I'd be a good fit for his department - and he was right. Too often, however, headhunters & managers base their searches on criteria such as x years of Java, or y years of C++ experience. In doing so, they are blinding themselves to a vast number of programmers out there who want to develop new skills, but aren't getting the opportunity to do so. The other skills they may bring to the job (experience with the development process, etc.) can more than make up for any learning curve they may have to go through on the technical side.
Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
Darn formatting bit me. ksheff wrote the part up through "he has to get Indians." The stuff after that is mine.
go to fuckedcompany.com. then explain to me where anyone sees a shortage of employees.
--
Peace,
Lord Omlette
ICQ# 77863057
[o]_O
Error!
Unlike people who know someone who has a H1-B, or maybe heard the guy down the hall has one, I am in the US on a H1-B. You cannot change jobs/employers without getting a brand new visa. This is hard to do as few employers are willing to wait three months while waiting to see if your visa is granted. When you so the clock is reset and you start all over again.
In fact the restrictions can be so tight that if your job description changes significantly (through promotion) etc., it no longer falls into under the rubric of the professional qualifications you used to get the visa in the first place (think of a programmer going into sales or management) and your renewal can be affected. (The visa is initially issued for three years with a three year renewal) which requires more INS red tape)
What this means is you're pretty much stuck where you are unless you're very fortunate - finding not one but two employers willing to jump through the INS hoops isn't easy.
"Just once, I'd like to meet an alien menace that wasn't immune to bullets." -- The Brigadier, Dr. Who
--dave
davecb@spamcop.net
To be somewhat blunt, horseshit. My Pa is an anaesthetist - a specialist in hitting people on the head with a calcluated chemical blackjack - and he has to constantly update his knowledge and attend seminars and courses. I certainly agree that the culture of thirsting for knowledge and constant (re)education is the way forward. Elgon
His wife would be here on an H-4, the visa they issue dependants of an H-1B. She could go to school. She could not work.
Canada is not nearly as strict as the US. Hell, no one is. Also, the article did not represent Canada's laws as fact but as rumor, i.e. he heard from a friend.
I agree it's way emotionally manipuative though.
The guy should have retained his own lawyer.
I sympathize with the H1B workers who now have to give up homes and careers to return to their countries, and it's easy to say "gee, let's just change the rules and let them stay." However, they entered the country under a specific set of guidelines and they knew full well the conditions of their visa. Changing the rules now seems hypocritical and capricious.
How would /.ers feel about a similar rule change:
"I know the original code was under GPL, but we've made so many improvements and worked so hard, it's just not fair that we can't change the license."
When I was in Mexico, in a tourist town where everyone spoke English, I made sure I had some rudimentary Spanish. Som of my traveling companions thought it a waste of time, but it is my opinion that everyone appreciates an effort to speak in his language.
When I was in England I did my best to speak quietly and not play the part of the loud American tourist-buffoon. I'll admit that I learned no Flemish when in Belgium--I did not have time to find any resources before my trip. Fortunately the Flemish are a decent bunch who happen to be polyglots, and everything worked very well.
It's amazing how quickly one can begin to pick up a language if one wishes to.
Not all of us are boors, you know.
Gotta love that imperialistic xenophobia.
--
NO TOUCH MONKEY!
I have worked with many people with a H1B, and every single one of them couldn't program for shit.
Every single program written had to be re-done, because it was the worst speghetti code imaginable.
I saw code written in VB that was harder to follow then a 1975 basic app.
I interviewed 100's of people over the last 6 years. Every person I interviewed from india was a 4.0 student, and the school they went to was "the hardest in India" never mind that they went to different schools.Never mind that there was no practical way to check there records.
I am not saying it's because there ancestory is from India. I have worked with many people whose parents where from india, but they are Americans and went to American colleges and they where great programmers, but it seems to me the ones who came over with these visas just stunk.
Plus I know programmers over 40 who have the hardest time finding work. Never Mind the factr that they have been programming for over 20 years. Nevermind there experience, because apparently only people under 25 no how to program. Nevermind that there has been no real changes in programming for over 10 years.Nevermind that web programming is the freaking easiest programming someone can do. If your a web programmer, and you have been doing it for over a year, and it is still tough to you, please GET THE HELL OUT OF THE PROGRAMING INDUSTRY.
Am i frustratede? you bet. Theres nothing like have 10+ years of programming and seeing somebady get more money to program in VB script.
hhmmm aparently this turned into a rant, I could go on, but I wont.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Yes, I'm sure that Linus will easily find lots of potential employers enthusiastically willing to sponsor him from a green card, but that's not the problem. The problem is that the amount of time it takes to process green cards takes longer than the time allowed on H-1B visas and if your case is not decided before that time is up, you have to leave the US, which really really sucks. What needs to happen is that there should be a rule allowing people, who have already been sponsored for a green card through their employer before their six years are over, to stay until a final decision is made on their case. This is what's fair. If you are sponsored for a green card, and then you build your hopes and dreams around staying in the US, and then at the end of your six years, you are faced with leaving it all behind, it can be very depressing.
Hmm.. I am on H1B, and I would not call myself cheap labor.. You would not either.. Also considering that U.S. taxpayers paid about 500K for my Ph.D. training over 6 years (tuition, salary, overhead expenses) well yeah it makes perfect sense to send me to find a job somewhere in Europe (I have heard Germany is in need for good "cheap" labor... ;)
<^>_<(ô ô)>_<^>
exactly. Great analogy, I hope you don't mind if I use it.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
I often wonder if we arn't doing the developing countries of the world a disservice by hiring away their best and brightest people. How will countries like India and Russia (the main sources of H1B workers, IME) get their economies going if everyone with brains or talent leaves?
"The axiom 'An honest man has nothing to fear from the police'
Why is it that the proponents of "one nation under God" are so eager to get rid of "liberty and justice for all"?
hhmmm could itr be the incredably high cost of liveing? perhaps the horrible commute?
You can't pay someone with experience 70,000 dollar(BTW thats cheap for 10 years exp) when the cost of a home is 500,000. or the commute is 3 hours.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
>Couldnt
That's "Couldn't".
> of
That's "have".
>been more right, pal. [...] They're chicks are hot,
That's "Their".
> and I really dont care
That's "don't".
>if they can't speak English cause
That's "because".
> theres plenty I can do
That's "there's".
>But if the chicks are dragging they're wimps over here
That's "their".
>The worst part is the're
That's "they're".
> slowly corroding the spirit of our country and
> attacking our values like the English language
You value the English language? I wouldn't have guessed.
Or was that a troll?
I object to using the word "deported" in the title. Their visa is up and they must go home. Period. I agree that the expectations of living the American Dream is probably crushed pretty quickly. After all, it's partly fantasy. It happens to American teens and college graduates too. Isn't it awful when real life intrudes :^)
H1B is NOT a slave visa. In my company, programmers with H1B are treated no differently than their American citizen counterparts - translate: Very Well. Every country has the sovereign right to decide who it will have as citizens. The U.S. has and continues to allow large levels of immigration.
Another point: H1B visa holders going back to their own country have the advantage of having working in American industry.
Adding to the situation is the thought that "the foreigners will work harder." In many cases, this is true. We Americans (yes, I'm born and raised here, so I suppose that makes me one) *do* have a poor work ethic for the most part. However, with many companies opting for the H1B holders before American citizens, the average white American male is now the least desirable hire - we're the ones that need EOE's, not the so-called "minorities".
I am not against non-American talent - the more brains on a project, the better. In many cases, the non-Americans have much different perspectives on issues and problems regarding both work and social issues. Let's not, however, disregard our own people for those outside our borders.
Those of you who claim me to be racist/nationalist, think for one moment - who among you in other countries would not rather see your own countrymen prosper before those of a different country?
"If there's hope, it lies in the proles..."
Excuse me, but do you understand what a percentage is? it means that two out of each 100 people in the country. That means across the whole country, 2% is the average. Walking the slums of a major city will obviously produce higher unemployment results than the national average, just as going to an upper-class neighborhood results in a lower unemployment rate.
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"Rock over London... Rock on Chicago..." -Wesley Willis
I don't necessarily think that the foreign workers are any worse. I just think that, on average, they aren't any better. It is true that US education sucks, though, so you may well have a point. In any case, I think it should be left to management to decide who is qualified, rather than the government. Kill the welfare state and open the borders; the lazy will have no incentive to enter, and competent foreign professionals would not need special visas to work here for as long as their employers desire.
Oh! I understand. You must be a Native American, right?
So many people in here are expressing attitudes of the racist right-wing groups in Europe who want the "dirty Arabs" to go home. Puh-lease! The United States is a nation of immigrants, founded on immigration, comprised of PEOPLE FROM OTHER PLACES (of course with the exception of native americans). Why does nobody here seem to remember this?
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Powerbook G4/1.5GHz 12", Toshiba Satellite 1135-S1554
I suspect you pick up a grammar reference like those used to teach in schools, and look what they say about this.
Of course, I'm saying "standard" as in "prescriptive standard".
No, I don't think the US has any particularly good reputation for welcoming foreigners.
The same xenophobia about "them damfurrineers taking jobs away from redblooded Mericans" exists here as it does in the UK, with its National Front, in France, where similar parties prey upon fears of the Algerians, and in Germany, where there is unease over the Turkish Gastarbeiters, and in Japan, where the few Koreans allowed in bounce against glass walls all the time.
Despite the heavy influx of immigrants into American in the late 1800s and early 1900s, the only welcoming arms were the ideals scratched on the statue of liberty. Russian Jews fleeing pogroms 1900, the Italians in 1920s (Sacco and Venzetti, anyone?), even the Irish Catholics back in the 1840s all faced considerable discrimination way back before modern times.
I agree that the INS bureaucratic foot dragging has to stop as part of any plan to increase H1Bs. It's not just the decent thing to do, but it happens to be intelligent and make sense, as well. Not only does the expanding IT field get qualified people (that would otherwise be the best tractor fixers in their home countries) to help it grow, but, for a change, America gets a little more diverse culture injected into it, which can only help given our usual blinders to what's happening in the rest of the world. If we're so short-sighted to not go out and learn about the rest of the world, then let some of the rest of the world come to us and teach us that we don't know everything and not everyone thinks like US.
I didn't really start to appreciate the value of the international news section of newspapers until I spent a few months abroad, where the only American news was located in that section of the paper!
P.S. I know that foreign accents are sometimes difficult to understand, but I've always found the effort to understand someone is worth it. If you've ever tried to pluck words from a memorized vocabulary of less than 1K words in a foreign country in hard RealTime to people with confused scowls on their faces you'll cut them some slack.
End O Diatribe.
"Provided by the management for your protection."
I am reminded of another /. comment regarding this H1B mess:
"When a German migrates to the US on an H1B, the average IQ of both countries increases!"
Yes it is, in an ironic sense that the shallow and greedy do not understand. Every street urchin and refugee is a potential scientist, entrepeneur, doctor, etc. All it takes is nurturing environment and a decent education. The value of immigration is not in the immigrants, but in their children.
--
he rest of the world considers the 50 united states of america to be "america" .. then there is south america and canada.. you rarely even hear the term north america..
You don't travel abroad much, do you?
Son, I've been on 6 continents and I can assure you that whenever I say I'm an American there has not been a single human being who spoke any language who misinterpreted that statement.
America is generally understood to mean the United States, and all the pedantic geographic posturing won't change that every other human being on earth seems to function just fine with this meaning.
If you want to reference the two contintents, it's generally considered proper to say "The Americas"...
I'm an investigator. I followed a trail there.
Q.Tell me what the trail was.
Recursive: Adj. See Recursive.
But then again the United States is hardly a democracy. I seem to remember that the whole system worked using representatives. They rarely follow the will of the people, instead they cater to the big corporations that line their pockets and the ballot boxes.
Considering the way the US government runs we should be thankful for what's left of freedom of speech and we should be thankful for what's left of freedom of assembly (though I prefer C personally).
Democracy scares me even more though.. imagine all the Oprahnites turning from their TV and voting on the laws we must live by. Eek.
It's ironic that so many years after the civil war the US has managed to recreate slavery. Don't like the working conditions, well, how would you like to go back to the poverty in your own country?
Ugh.
You've gotta be kidding me. First off, a lot of people do not want to move to California. Secondaly, 60-70K wouldn't cover cost-of-living out there. Move your operations to Pennsylvania, Ohio, Virgina, New York and you'd probably be saturated with applicants to accept. Places like Pittsburgh and Cleveland are doing a terrific job of re-inventing themselves from a blue-collar steel-town images to a high-tech center, and let me tell you they're doing a terrific job. I'd rather make less here (in Ohio) and have a nice commute, reasonable housing, clean air and a much more relaxed environment. You can run T1 and T3 lines anywhere? Why pick the city that people are least likely to move to?
Some people take their .sig way too seriously
Consider: High-tech worker (possibly from upper classes of their society, certainly educated) comes to America and is immersed in our culture for six years. What happens when he goes home?
Does he not yearn for a REAL Coke? Doesn't he know that Nikes are cool? Doesn't he want to drive his car to work instead of riding the train? Doesn't he want his government to work as well as ours? (knock it if you want, but for all the kinks and bullshit the US government has, it is light years ahead of most others.)
The US government couldn't buy a better missionary. We tried the Peace Corp earlier, and it didn't work for this purpose. One, because it was frequently used as a cover for three letter agency types, and two, because it was a bunch of Americans handing down the "way it shall be". A much better approach is to let folks in other countries come see what is better, and then send them back to want it and do something about it in their own areas. If you want to know, it was this apporach that pretty well started the old Soviet Union off to ruin. A bunch of dudes from the state department make sure that every Soviet countryman that came to the states was able to see a supermarket, a department store, and a family in action. And then sent them home to tell the neighbors...
*whup* "Get along, little electrons. Heeyah!"
I've always assumed this was two different subpopulations on /. Any time immigration is raised as an issue, you get a lot of mostly AC's posting inarticulate and ignorant cliche-ridden messages effectively expressing the sentiment "me good; dang furriners bad."
In real life and on /., this sentiment invariably comes from people who are lacking in various assets or abilities, whether it be communication, education, intelligence, socialization, or whatever. It seems fairly obvious why they would feel threatened by people smarter and more ambitious than they are, coming to the U.S. to compete for jobs and other resources.
But I've always retained the fond hope that the /.ers who read HHGTTG, Neal Stephenson, etc., aren't the same ones who have knee-jerk reactions to anyone a little different from themselves. I would think anyone with the capacity to appreciate that sort of literature would also have the capacity to discuss, in a reasonably rational way, the pros and cons of immigration and the issues which surround it.
Call me an idealist!
You know why of course though don't you? Because in SV you have to make $100k to avoid LIVING IN A BOX! It never ceases to amaze me that companies continue to try and hire people into SV paying wages that are decent for other portions of the country, but that are TOTALLY INADEQUATE to survive in SV. I could see how bringing in H1B's would help this since depending on where they are from, they might be used to the crappy standard of living they will have in SV getting paid at that level. However most Americans are used to being able to afford buying a house and a car, which you will never be able to do in SV on 60-70k/yr.
"There are laws that enslave men, and laws that set them free. " - Sean Connery as King Arthur
I believe one of the conditions of the H1-B process is that your sponsoring company needs to show proof to INS that they can and are prepared to pay for your ticket back home. That is why companies like TCS send people to the US with an open return ticket in hand.
Of course, if you want to stay back, it doenst help that the cost of the return trip is taken care of - you will still end up home...
There is no such thing as luck. Luck is nothing but an absence of bad luck.
Ahh, you mean 'standard' as in 'complete load of crap formulated by people who know nothing about the history or usage of English in particular, or anything about linguistics in general'.
Of course, you could attempt to learn about contemporary evolutionary theory from a creationist tract, too. It would be about as good an idea. Maybe better.
So you are saying someone fresh out of college should get the same pay as someone with 10 years experience? I think not.
the industry works like this
1:you get out of school(trade or university it don't matter)
2:you sucke it up for 1 maybe 2 years at about 20-30k. depending on where you are in the country. 3:you change jobs ever year or two. getting a 10-40% pay increas, until you make 80+K a year. then You loko foe\r a comapny you wouldn't mind staying at 40 hours work week, nice drive, etc... 4:Then you use your contacts to look for a golden opportunity. Golden opportunity will very from person to person.
I went to school for 18 months(trade) Walked out and into a jr position for 25k(this was 10 years ago). Now I make over 125k, work less j\hours and I am way more productive, then I was 10 yers ago.
With my experience now, I often see problems that I have seen before which may change the time to fix from a week, to an hour.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
I think giving green cards to h1 people is wrong, what happens when the economy goes down, all these indians that are coming in are gonna be fighting us for the jobs.
If we don't give em green cards then we can kick them out when we don't need them or when their term / contract expires
I think congress should make that the law, no processing of green cards for H1 visas. This will reduce the burden on INS also.
Hell Yeah!!!
If there is such a shortage in the workforce why is it so difficult to find a job for many people. Personally I think the workforce shortage is a scare tactic so that they can bring more CHEAP labor into the U.S.
Brooklyn has the largest collection of West Indian immigrants in the world.
How can you be the last native english speaker ?
Woe be on to them, all who rise against poor people, shall perish in a the end. Buju Banton
A small caveat: if you're in the San Francisco or Boston areas, your cost of living is high enough to eat up any difference in the value of the dollar. I have a colleague who want to Boston and found that out the hard way...
davecb@spamcop.net
You're absolutely right! I'm from Canada, although I was born in the UK. I have been in the US for five years on a succession of TN visas. I have recently obtained an H1B visa with the intention of obtaining a green card, only to discover what the backlog for green card applications was. I'm now concerned that even though I have six years on my H1B it may not be enough.
By the way, no-one seems to have mentioned that the people on TN and H1B visas pay taxes in this country, but aren't eligible to vote. Didn't you Americans have a war over that sometime in the recent geologic past?
Wait a minute! What did the government imply that they would do? They offered 6 year work visas to those how wanted to work in the US. The 6 years are up, and back go the workers. So where's the problem?
-BrentYeah, but he did get a mall named after him, though...
Just junk food for thought...
and we don't WANT them too (which is the real point). That's the whole reason they were granted this type of temporary visa.
One of the problems with the H1B workers is the depression of the market rate for American workers. /. recently explaining how there isn't any REAL shortage of programmers - if there were the salaries would be going up much faster. Also there aren't many unemployed programmers as they all take other jobs (i.e. aren't programmers any more).
There was an analysis referenced on
I'm heading for 40 and trying to change to another speciality to stay marketable. Easy it isn't.
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I hereby inform you that I have NOT been required to provide any decryption keys.
(most green card applications are fought for by company lawyers, whose
interests don't necessarily coincide with that of the immigrant), or
who come from a country with a lot of competeing applicants, and find
their case being pushed back and back by quota restrictions.
There is nothing determinate about the length of these processes.
They needn't terminate within six years.
Since when did getting an engineering degree involve geography? Sure, some people are focused on their fields to the near-exclusion of all others, but just because someone can't point to where London is on a map doesn't make them stupid, and it's hardly an indication of the "dumbing down" of the American school system. If American's school system is so bad, why is it that so many foreigners attend our schools? HMMM? I can name some H1-B's who didn't know a lick of C coding, does that mean India's school system is dumbed down? Believe me, I have yet to meet an H1-B who learned to do my job better than me. You get out of your education what you put into it. I grew up in a backwards rural town, and I speak perfect *American* English, thank you very much. This silly notion that the Queen's English is the only valid version is also a bunch of bull. With that being said, I have no problems with immigrants coming here and working, however, I do have a problem with the concept of H1-B's. It's a method by which American corps can screw both foreign and domestic workers, by pitting them against one another, and laughing all the way to the bank (temp visas depress the domestic workers salary).
(historical tip: if they were going to, it was more likely to be German than English).
Yeah, and supposedly one of the presidents of the Continental Congress under the Articles of Confederation asked the King of Prussia to step in and become monarch. That one didn't fly, either.
--Mythos
In our previous exchange you continued to defend your position.Understand,(as a presumed geek you can)you don't have detachment or objectivity to effectivly make the assertions neccessary to defend your position.(being the subject and all)Ergo,no argument you make will have any effect.
We can look at some probablilities on the course you've chosen:
1.You are inevitably caught.You are (justifiably)killed by a relative of the child.The relative is then (wrongfully)prosecuted as a murderer.The child loses 2 people close to them.One of them is a legitimate neccessity to that childs wellbeing (not you).The child is placed at the center of the controversy and is scarred further in the proceedings.(do you really want this scenario as a likelyhood?)
2.You are inevitably caught.You are taken into custody,prosecuted,sentenced and incarcerated.For a time you are in P.C.(protective custody otherwise known as punk city)This won't last long before you are released to general population.You will find yourself among many who recieved "erotic training" when they were young.They don't bear the pedophile the same regard as when they were younger.In fact you will be used and abused.You could be the target of any number of prison cultures,a target of a gang-banger showing his willingness to kill.A redneck who hates peds.You could be the "bitch" of those who dont believe they are homosexual because they are not the "reciever".(not a racial statement,but this is almost exclusivly a "black thing")This wont be pleasant lovemaking either,but a violent satisfaction of lust.Ever seen a man spend his life in adult diapers because his sphincter was torn?
No as before I say the best thing would be to kill yourself.Do a drug overdose,painkillers.It will feel lovely while it does and you can recoup some worth as a beacon of the dangers of drug abuse to children.Morphine is handy if you know crooked medical professionals,Heroin would be prime,but dilaudid is the SHIT!Go out feeling the warm secure loving arms of morphius.
Look around,You will never get acceptance from anyone but your own kind.You are worthless and a hazard to all.
*Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
People from Mexico are called what? Mexicans. People from Canada are called what? Canadians. People from the United States of America are called what? Look it up in your "English" dictionary: Americans
I resent you trying to make up names to satisfy some misdirected sense of political correctness.
No other country in the world uses "America" in their name except for the US. Deal with it, then shut up.
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"Every artist is a cannibal, every poet is a thief."
I just finished completing the paperwork for my N-600 (Application for a Certificate of Citizenship; used for people like me who, for example, might have been born abroad to U.S. parents, and now want to be able to prove their citizenship), as opposed to the N-400 (Application for Naturalization) or green card application, but it all goes through the same people and red tape.
It took two years just to receive a response back from the INS to state that they had my paperwork and that they were beginning the process of looking at it. Six months later, I finally had an interview with a real human being over there (thus giving me a contact point), and six months after that, the paperwork was completed. Three years spent in total.
N-400's and green card applications are much more complicated. I would expect it to take at least six years, probably more.
One thing that stood out for me after I finally had a human contact was their willingness to help out, even though they were hopelessly overloaded; the officer I worked with had a case load that was at burn-out levels, and I can make a pretty good guess at the lousy salary she was making from it. She helped as much as she could to get the process done quickly for me, but I'd be willing to bet she won't be working their much longer.
This wasn't a planning problem on the part of the H1B visitors; they did everything they were supposed to do, coming in on an H1B visa, then starting the application process for a green card (followed by naturalization, presumably). This has been a glorious screwup on the part of INS management; They're burining out their people, which is leading to reduced productivity and employee turnover. All of that has been slowing the process to a snail's pace, screwing both people trying to come to the U.S. and U.S. citizens trying to make use of a horribly broken system.
-Ed Felix qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas.
--
Build a man a fire, and he's warm for a day.
Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once... the bitch.
I know some H-1Bs who aren't being exploited by their employers. Both of them describes the INS as the most inefficient, corrupt, and wholly-distasteful organization they've encountered. Comparisons with KGB and Stasi are frequent. INS officials are often abusive - there are no appeals at ports of entry, and the enforcement mentality permeates the organization to the last man.
If you ever want to see the banality of evil in America, you need look no further than your nearest INS office.
Millions of dollars on APCs and H&K MP5 submachine guns to get a rugrat from Cuba out of a house. Over a year to process the form that says "OK, given that DOL has approved your labor cert (6-8 months upfront), so once we process this form (I-140), you'll be allowed to apply for the Green Card and wait another four years for that form (I-485) to be processed".
First Presidential candidate who abolishes INS and replaces it with a Beat-On-The-Illegals arm and a funded Services-To-Legal-Immigrants arm, gets my vote. The present organization appears to be little more than "Beat-On-Everyone".
Uncle Sam and our big high-tech companies fucked these people in the ass. In fact, we went out of our way to do so. That is just plain wrong, no matter how you slice it.
... pay for programmers, although, higher than the "average" American worker ... is less than the average pay of ...
>> Even the fortune 500 richest people is flooded with programmers ...
Fortune 500? They're not programming if they're on the fortune 500 - they're "managers" of IT then ... if they are that's awesome but I bet were considering the 0.0055% that are above and beyond ... I hate when people point to 0.0055% and then say if 1 out of 20,000 can do it, so can you ... again, I'll stick by the statement that in terms of "real dollars", programmer salaries have actually been slashed ...
I like this quoted blurb from P.Greespun's Database backed websites online book ... After three decades of shelling out for magic programming bullets that fail, you'd think that corporate managers would wise up. Yet these
products proliferate. Hope seems to spring eternal in the breasts of MBAs ...My personal theory requires a little bit of history. Grizzled old
hackers tell of going into insurance companies in the 1960s. The typical computer cost at least $500,000 and held data of great value. When
Cromwell & Jeeves Insurance needed custom software, they didn't say, "Maybe we can save a few centimes by hiring a team of guys in
India." They hired the best programmers they could find from MIT and didn't balk at paying $10,000 for a week of hard work. Back in those
days, $10,000 was enough to hire a manager for a whole year, a fact not lost on managers who found it increasingly irksome. ... Managers control companies, and hence policies that irk managers tend to be curtailed. Nowadays, companies have large programming staffs earning,
in real dollars, one-third of what good programmers earned in the 1960s. When even that seems excessive, work is contracted out to code
factories in India. Balance has been restored. Managers are once again earning three to ten times what their technical staff earn. The only
problem with this arrangement is that most of today's working programmers don't know how to program.
I can attest to some senior colleagues that I have worked with that all testify that in the 70s, they made equal or greater amounts even at "face value" ... let alone accounting for inflation, etc ...
AZspot
Actually. Yes there is. We are in America. Therefore it is the right way to pronounce it. In Australia, the Australian way is correct, etc. Don't say something so daft.
- w
Jake
Dating: while( 1 ){ call_girl(); get_rejected(); drink_40(); } return 0;
One of the major points of the article is that this is not the case. INS and immigration are overloaded, and good people are waiting the whole six years fro a green card and not getting one. Not because they shouldn't get one, not because they don't want one, not even because the corps they work for aren't trying to get them one. The system is badly broken. Congress basically said "come on an H1B, it has a six year limit, but that is plenty of time to get a green card". People came and INS said "AHHH!! Look at all the people!!" and fell down on the job. Now these immigrants lured here by the promise of a new life (which many of them actually built), now suddenly find that thru no fault of their own they must give it all back. Meanwhile congress says "Whoops.. Maybe we mispoke ourselves.. sorry... don't let the door hit you on the butt as you leave."
I don't need a million points of light, just two points of multi-mode fiber and a 10 Gig-E router.
I think we should change "Screw the immigrants because they don't speak English" to "Screw the immigrants because they don't speak American"
;)
Just because you may be fluent in English, does not mean you will be fluent in American English. For example, many of those who speak the Queens English use many different words and spellings than do those of us using American English.
If those in the Asian economies learn my job better than me, it won't do them a hill of beans (Is this proper English? Does it make me sound uneducated?) if my Congressman writes a law to keep them out.
From a philosophical perspective I don't have a problem with non-US nationals working here in the States, after all one of my best friends is a Canadian. From a political and US-centric perspective I believe we need to take care of our own people first. Once we have reduced the labor pool through various means such as technical training and corporate incentives, then let in the outsiders. Until then, America for the Americans
I'm not saying the program has good terms or that it isn't a crummy way to treat people, just that those terms were clear and upfront. Personally, I have no problem at all allowing broad immigration of well-educated people from other countries, and I think we ought to do more of it. A LOT more, especially as the native education levels continue to decline in the absence of any real competition. I just think it ought to be at the front end, instead of from a sudden rules change at the back end. As eager as I am to get the heck out of the US, I'm certainly not a xenophobe or a nativist.
--
Proud member of the Weirdo-American community.
The point, my friend, is that most educated folks that immigrate on HI-B visas want to stay in the US and _become_ citizens. -Stefan
1) Not a bargain. In my company H1 workers get the same salary as americans, >= $70K for most people.
2) Yes, after returning home they can get better salary. Say, $8K per year instead of $3K before US.
Andrew
What about all of those unfortunate H1B Tech Mastercard workers? Did anyone think about them???
As a European and one of those skilled workers you mention, I couldn't agree more. Scanning the US jobs ads published on the net it's clear the vast majority of US employers are looking for candidates who already have a US work permit. While salaries and career opportunities in the US may be attractive, the difficulty of obtaining a US work visa is a major deterrent not only for the prospective employee from abroad but for the prospective employer as well.
Antidisestablishmentarianism would lose its point if it were hyphenated
I get sick of the short-term, short-sighted view of the US government towards these foriegn workers in the United States. I work with a bunch of people on H-1 visas, and all are very intelligent, outstanding people. It would only strenghten our country to accept these highly-trained people as permanent citizens. Sending these people back to their countries only increases America's competition in the long-term when we could be strengthening ourselves. Save all the "stealing our jobs" rhetoric for untrained, illegal immigrants.
Money and fame do wonders for increasing your chances of getting what you want don't they? I love this country. Glad I was born here since I am neither wealthy or famous. I'd probably be deported. ;-)
Oh, I few things I forgot to mention. Linux has Paul Allen (sp?) behind him, which is certain to grease the burearatic gears a fair deal. Also, Linux will be used by tens of millions of Americans by the time he is in real danger. He does not need to worry. Any congressman in California, among other states, who voted against a 'private bill' to keep Linus here can kiss his own limited-term job goodbye.
As others have commented, if these people are smart enough to be computer professionals, they are obviously smart enough to know that they are in the country on a temporary visa. Complaints about families or conditions back home are sad in one way, but in another make me mad. It is clear that a lot of these people are just trying to re-write the deal they signed up for. It kind of makes me wonder if they didn't have this planned all along.
Another angle on this is that these visas drain the best and brightest talent from other countries. Places like India desperately need to find a way to raise standards of living at home, and exporting their smart people to the US isn't the best way to accomplish that. Why should we promote a policy of actively brain draining developing nations?
I would find it difficult to believe that these foreign workers are any better at their jobs than American workers. Many if not most are incompetent, and language and cultural problems may make it more difficult for them to work with the rest of the team.
Whether these problems exist or are relevant, however, is not for the government to decide. It's for the clients of the giant software houses to decide. They can send a strong message that the products are crap by not buying them. Then the management can decide for themselves whether or not hiring more workers - foreign or not - will increase profits, and act accordingly.
Me, I see a market for about 25% as many tech workers as we have today. Employers could reduce their personnel problems by 1) using less technology; most jobs are better performed without it anyway, and there is strong evidence that computers don't increase productivity for most jobs; 2) using better tools; it's no surprise that supporting microsoft and other inferior products consumes the bulk of any tech worker's time; 3) using more selective hiring processes; 10 good people are infinitely better than 100 lousy ones; 4) in the case of software houses, scrapping obsolete products, streamlining their offerings, and rewriting or discontinuing unmaintainable code bases.
More workers? I don't think they're needed. Smarter management, yes. Better workers, yes. Higher quality education, yes. But, as Fred Brooks would love to remind us, throwing more workers - many poorly educated and inexperienced - at a problem only makes it worse.
I'm at around that too. What sucks is:
1) Getting credit (but you don't live here.)
2) Family? (Hey, dear, sorry your life is on hold four years and counting...)
If they only let spouses and children of TNs work like they said they would, and like Canada has done (you go to Canada on a US equiv of a TN-1 and the wife and kids can work!) you'd have less people applying for Green cards.
--- Jump!! Fire!! Bullet time!! - Lego version of the Matrix
Why was the H1B visa created? I believe it was because of an observed shortage of 'qualified people'.
What has been done to increase our shortage of qualified people since the creation of the H1B? Very little, what's up with that?
Since the 'shortage' of 'qualified people', top-level managers have been a little more patient of the comments from the 'artisans' rank and file. I have seen this.
We do need more help from experts from other places. But do we need so many? I believe not.
Since the massive downsizing of the early 1990's, we have seen the indifference of training from our own ranks. We have seen the hiring from outside at the expense of training from others. And now we have seen what is happening to those who have come here.
I understand the concept of Short Term Gains. I understand the concept of A New Life. I understand the concept of Logistics. Why does the American solution take the moving of whole populations?
Or New Hampshire, Upstate NY, Maryland, Connecticut, Texas...etc.
Actually only a few types of visas are labor-related. What would DOL have to do with ambassadors and tourists and students?
The whole point of the Labor Condition Application you need to file to get an H-1B is that Labor gets their say.
Plus DOL's almost as big a nightmare to deal with as the INS.
...let's face it, programming in the USA was rapidly approaching the status of "doctor" or "lawyer". In the late 80's, a hot programmer could freelance for a fortune.
This made life very tough on Sun, Oracle, Microsoft and IBM. The last thing they needed was having to pay $40-$100 an hour for programmers.
Thus, immense financial pressure begat H1B. I knew it was a lie from the start, intended to hobble the wealth and status of American Software Engineers, Developers and programmers.
I would have far preferred we let in a mix of people from a variety of backgrounds, on a permanent basis. Lawyers, Police, Doctors, Nurses, Politicians, Pilots, Teachers, whatever. But the various unions would have stopped it cold. Thus, the congress had to target geeky programmers -- highly paid, but no organizing skills.
Now we're stuck with the result. H1B Programmers and Technicians only; many of which will not be granted permanent residence and thus have to return home.
IMHO, this is one of the most egregious actions that the congress of the USA has ever taken, and that's saying a lot since they generally fuck everyone on the globe on a daily basis.
The downturn in the economy, the global corporatists (GE just opened a $100M engineering facility in Bangladore), stagnation of the platform have all contributed to this situation.
All I can say is, take a look at the local want ads. There are a fraction of the programming jobs that existed just a few years ago. My brother works for a massive aerospace company which has 100s of job openings on their website. The resumes pour in, but the jobs are never filled, and only rarely is anyone even interviewed.
Why? because the company uses vacant engineering slots to pressure the government in a lot of ways -- more time to complete projects, more pressure to expand H1B, etc.
Hate to say it, but for many H1B people, this was your vacation in America. Some global corporation got to pay you a fraction of what he would have paid me. Now, it's time for the next crop. Sooner or later, most programming will be done in China and India, and you will make more than the guy down the street.
Who really wins? The big shareholders in the Globals. That is, the top 1-5% of the US population. Many will do well in India/China, though. Personally, I think you got a pretty good deal.
Who can say Linus + family wouldn't have an enjoyable life back in Helsinki? I seriously doubt he'd have trouble finding a job!
Treatment, not tyranny. End the drug war and free our American POWs.
See my user info for links.
Linus is not IIRC wealthy. He was given stock in a few of the Linux companies, but he is not a multi-millionaire IIRC.
most people who come under this visa are from canada. the visa was implemented as part of NAFTA
to ensure free movment of labor and goods across the border. it was intended to allow people to work on short term contracts out of country, not create new lives south of the border
My girlfriend is currently here in the US on a student visa. She intends to stay here, (hopefully with me) and make the US here home. Not many CpE jobs in the Bahamas these days. After her degrees and 6 years of work, the US has sucked 10, 12 years of her life, her spirit and her taxes. Is she not at that point American? Does she not have a right to continue living her life?
This is the land of the free. This country was build on the backs of hard working people from other nations. The US shouldn't be fucking those people over now.
The best and the brightest is what American wants. Who cares where they came from.
http://kered.org
a section of the LAbor Condition Application (LCA) you need to file to get an H-1B is an attestation that there was no strike, lockout, or work stoppage at the place of employment at the time of the filing.
another part requires the employer to provide notice to the "collective bargaining representative" (read Union) of the filing of the LCA or to post it in a conspicuous place at the site where the H-1B worker will be employed for at least 10 days.
hence, not scabs. well sort of.
this won't stop an employer from hiring "consultants" from a third party who are here on H's but it does try to provide some protection.
Any visa that entitles you to the right to work is labor related. The DOL knows what's going on in the labor market and doesn't make big mistakes like the INS does. ... your tooth.
For ambassadors, turists and students you don't need a department like INS.
INS is in the middle of everything and doesn't help things move fast, it actually stops them.
It's same thing as you have to go to a few dentists till you get to the right one who's allowed to drill but not clean, pull,
Well.. it is healthier for a country to educate it's CITIZENS into the roles it needs rather than simply importing the help from another country.
In the long run, much better.
Perhaps the most important problem is that even if the delays are the INS's fault (as they usually are), the applicants are not protected from deportation. If the INS sits on someone's application for two years and their current visa expires, that person is subject to deportation.
Maybe we should consider H1B visa's for INS workers? Looks like they could use real tech help. I know if my projects were years late... I would be asking "would you like fries with that?"
"The word "genius" isn't applicable in football. A genius is a guy like Norman Einstein," - Joe Theisman
The problem is that people have generalized the situation so much that they've forgotten that every situation is different. There are H1 workers who are underpaid, and there are H1 workers who are paid above average. Companies operate differently, some may take advantage of H1 workers, and some may just be grateful that they have people to finish their projects and pay them fairly. You situation does sound like you're getting a fair deal. Just be aware that if you every do decide to apply for permanent residency through your employer, you become the one more dependent on the employer rather than the other way around. Some employers may take advantage of this dependency, some may not. Just be aware of that possibility and make the best decision for yourself.
Right, but you have a lot less leverage in (say) salary negotiations, because you can't just go out and find another job straight away. (I've seen H-1B visa transfers in California take 5.5 months to process.) If the job or company starts to really badly suck, you may have to wait that long to get out of it. During that time you may have a very strong desire to leave the job, but doing so means leaving the country (selling your assets at a loss, giving up your apartment, dismantling your US life at considerable expense). I won't even start on the position it puts you in with regard to stock options and AMT.
* An employer can't "send them back". This is a HUGE misconception. Even if the company fires someone, he is legally present with a valid work permit, which normally doesn't expire until a yr or two.
This is not strictly true. Yes, the employer can't directly send one back (and if you go back, the last employer is responsible for moving expenses in some way). However, you have 10 days to have another potential employer submit an H-1B application, or you are no longer legally present. Firstly, think about the salary negotiating position that puts you in (I can tell you all about it from personal experience). Secondly, during that period you are not allowed to work unless it's on a valid H-1B - and if you only have one and have just been laid off, you have no income source. Given that (in California) H-1Bs routinely take over 3 months and may take almost 6 months to come through, how are you supposed to support yourself?
This means that H-1Bs need to have some sort of prescient radar detecting how the job/company is going to be doing over the next 3-6 months, and get out if it looks like it could go bad.
* Inspite of the mass hysteria, employers can't pay anything they want - they have to legally state how much they pay and this has to be approved by the DoL (dept. of labor) BEFORE they grant it.
True, but there are so many ways around paying the "prevailing wage" that it's laughable. For example, there are many common dodges using the DOL survey (which was last published in 1998, has overly broad geographical regions, has overly broad job descriptions, poorly measures specialty or in-demand skills, has little measure of years of experience). I've seen the proposed salaries posted for several H-1B positions, and they're usually a joke.
No one is as strict? A LOT of other tech savy countries won't let you work AT ALL if you are a foreigner. They protect thier citizens. It's something the US has forgotten about thanks to big corporate money
The Game Guy
Man this is the internet age. Once the visas expire -- they will go home to India...And in a week or 2, you can sign them to an "off-shore" contract for about 50% what you were paying them in the good old US of A...And it's a WIN WIN situation....(Plus the quality standards and processes in India are 1000% time better..)
:)
I have been working with an off shore team for over 15 months...and the results are positive...(Plus you get 2 coders for every 1 here -- and they are coding while we are sleeping..)
The secret to good communication??? A good T1 line and a copy of VNC
(+1 Funny) only if I laugh out loud.
Finally, someone who cares! Thanks for posting! :)
Linus is on an H1B visa. I recall reading an article about his visa troubles about a year ago.
it was an obnoxious post, but the direction is quite correct. The US does NOT owe H1B visa people anything.
The Game Guy
The U.S. chose not to develop people here, but to take the best people from other countries.
Would it have worked out so badly to depend on our own citizens, and solve whatever problems arose? These are problems that needed solving anyway. When we bring people in from outside we turn our back on our own country.
And, we cripple the other country. How can another country improve, when some of its most intelligent people are away and unavailable?
Bush's education improvements were
You must mean your communication skills. You know, these people speak more languages than you do, and far better than you possibly ever could.
Otherwise, how's your Hindi, Chinese or Korean doing?
Other countries may hand out work permits and immigration visas less easily, but they probably generally administer the ones they give out more efficiently.
Try doing a Google search on "India Socialist"
Everything I've ever read has said that India is mostly Socialist... they do allow some private enterprise, but potential entrepreneurs are subject to a lengthy application process where the government determines if the businesses are in the best interest of the community.
--
I'm sorry, but your lack of understanding in who are forced to leave US shows how much you know about the situation. Most of the people forced to leave have already applied for green cards, or in your words, qualified for the green cards. They have gone through the long and rigid process of labor certification (which essentially is used to validate their worth) and ran out of time because of the incompetency of your INS agency, who is unable or unwilling to process the paperwork in a timely and reasonable manner. When I started my process back in 1997 I was assured by my company confidently that the whole process will not take more than 15 months. By the time I got the darn thing 34 months has passed. INS froze processing I-485s (the last step of the green card process) for almost an entire year between 4/99 and 3/00. Even after I got my green card I believed that if I had known back in 1997 it would take that long to get it, I would never have waited. There are many more H1 workers who suffer more than I have - those who ran out of time and those who have to wait even longer because of the per-country quota. You have no idea what it's like or the people who are in the middle of this situation. Please educate yourself prior to making comments that only make you sound like a fool.
Oh really. Why exactly are such neologisms bad if they explain the phenomenon at hand adequately? Indeed perhaps they are better on the grounds that their 'sense' and the ideas that they produce are not keyed to classical languages such as Latin and Greek. (Neither of which I can speak, but I can write both. BTW the computer I am writing from is located at the Ecole Nat. Sup. de Chimie in Clermont-Ferrand, France, where I am spending the third year of my four year undergrad masters.) If you wish to say that, latin, for example is an efficient a language as english - you'd clearly be wrong. Latin does have many useful features like a consistent grammar but does not have the strength in depth that english does. It should of course be noted that there is no thing as a synonym really, because all of the different expressions for the same thing have different origins and varied associations. Elgon
In addition, 45-55k per year in San Francisco is pretty much below the poverty line. I just moved out of a one-bedroom apartment in a nice enough but not terribly upscale neighbourhood and the new tenants are paying $2800/month for it.
Posted by polar_bear:
I agree - indentured servitude is bad enough - no need to resort to calling it slavery.
I think most Americans don't realize how much higher their wages are compared to the rest of the world. For example, I live in Canada, and can usually expect the average developers job to pay $50,000 to $75,000 per year. Well guess what the typical developers job in the US pays? Uh, you guessed correctly; $50,000 to $75,000 (or more) - FYI the US$ is 35% higher than the CDN$. And there's substantially more programming jobs in the US than anywhere else in the world.
The prospect of working in the US is a great opportunity for skilled programmers. None of the H1B workers are "stealing" jobs away from US workers. Trust me, for all the troubles that companies have to go to immigrate skilled workers into the country, they would not be doing it if they could merely post a job ad in a newspaper and find the skill they need.
"I can only show you Linux... you're the one who has to read the man pages."
Most employers and employees therefore had to start taking a different approach: they would apply for H1B visas first and then apply for a green card while the employee was working on the H1B. That approach worked fine for a while. However, over the last few years, INS processing has become so inefficient that it can take three or four years to process a green card. If the H1B visa expires before the green card application has been mostly processed, the employees face deportation. Because the INS processing times skyrocketed so suddenly, many employees were caught by surprise: they thought that two years would be ample time to get their green card application through and were planning for that, and then were left without enough time to complete their application. Because of the baroque nature of US immigration law, there are no exemptions. Once the H1B has run out, people have to leave the country. There is no other status to convert to.
US immigration law is also rife with other outdated rules and bizarre notions. For example, it talks a lot about "intent": you can't travel on a visitor's visa if you have some "intent" to immigrate. Family reunification (even of more distant relatives) is preferred over any kind of skilled immigration. And dual citizenship is recognized by the US only if a US citizen acquires another citizenship, but the US still expects immigrants to renounce any former citizenship (although in practice, that isn't enforced much anymore). The immigration procedures themselves are a bizarre mix of rules and questions pertaining to 19th century immigration by boat, puritan notions of "good moral character", McCarthy-era concerns about communism, and modern day concerns about terrorism.
Perhaps the most important problem is that even if the delays are the INS's fault (as they usually are), the applicants are not protected from deportation. If the INS sits on someone's application for two years and their current visa expires, that person is subject to deportation.
Altogether, I don't consider the US very welcoming to skilled immigrants anymore. In addition to visa issues and processing delays, there are numerous other problems immigrants face in the US. For example, immigrants must pay full taxes but cannot take advantage of the social safety net (such as it is) and entitlements they have paid for. Legal protections for immigrants are also limited in some important ways. And even after becoming citizens, naturalized citizens are always potentially subject to denaturalization, in which the INS can challenge and reverse the naturalization process until the day an immigrant dies. The statute of limitations for denaturalization was abolished about 10 years ago, another instance of what looks like a fairly hostile attitude towards immigrants.
In a social and business sense, Americans are very welcoming to immigrants and foreigners, and that makes this country a special place to live and work. And the US will probably always remain attractive to immigrants from economically disadvantaged countries. But the US government and the US Congress have become so hostile to immigrants and foreigners that I think anybody coming from another first world country should very carefully weigh the tradeoffs involved. If the US wants to continue to be attractive skilled workers from Europe, Japan, and Australia, US immigration law will need a major overhaul.
>Doesn't marrying a US citizen make you a citizen?
No, this is not the case (thanks to a number of abuses of the system by spouses for hire). Currently the system runs thus (if you are lucky):
1. At marriage you get a temporary green card. If you have a divorce, kiss that goodbye.
2. After 2 years of marriage, you should get your permanent green card.
3. After 5 years you should be able to get citizenship.
It keeps folks from marrying to get citizenship, but it leads to other abuses. There are numerous stories of women being abused by their "husbands" who marry them and continue to promise to put the paperwork through, but never do. If they divorce the scoundrel, they are deported.
Okay, so you come over on a 6-year pass. One would think that around the 4-year mark you'd say "Hey, I kinda like it here" and get your ass moving on doing whatever it takes to get a green card. Six years is a lot of time to sit idlely by, just to freak when the period ends, no?
------
Let me give you the lowdown
China is not outright hostile towards you, they simply don't want you telling them what to do.
All they would get from SlashDot is the IP address of a proxy (in another country), and an email address from a web-mail provider. If they go after the web-mail provider they'll just get the proxy again. You think I'm stupid or something?
Employers are responsible to their stockholders(in a great many cases anyway) It wouldn't be ethical to not make as much money as posssible.
Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
I think it's important for all of these H1B cardholders to realize one important fact. The United States has no sympathy for you and never had any. The only reason this country let you in was for our interests and our interests alone. If you think you got a job in the US because this country felt sorry for you then came here for the wrong reason. Hasn't it become obvious that the only reason the US let these people in was the sole fact that we needed high technology fast, and hiring out is the fastest way to get it. But isn't it also obvious that when the US got what they wanted, they're just plain through with your skills. Now they can be givin to an American citizen. The most obvious thing you should realize is that this was the United States's plan in the first place. If you're feeling used, you should have realized this ahead of time. The United States wanted your skills not your permanent citizinship. Thank you for helping make our country once again more powerful than your's. That's basically what it's all about, my foriegn friend.
I think you should be ashamed of making such a statement.
There is no way you could compare slavery, the institution of legalized ownership of other persons, with low wage work. It's just not a reasonable comparison.
I would have to agree, there are far too many american citizens who can't get jobs due to poor education (true many of them are lazy or lack the intelligence to do otherwise) and we should try to help ourselves before helping everyone else IMHO. And for the cluetrain in all of us read: Temporary Visa. These people are hardly getting a favor anyway they are treated like shit even by immigrant bosses. I used to work for some Indian gentlemen who treated the Indian employees like shit! Poor pay and even worse benefits.
"If you love someone, set them free. If they come home, set them on fire." - George Carlin
The currenty implimentation of the H1B visa is kinda like the Death Penalty: nice idea, the way it's done sucks.
So what's wrong with the current H1B? Three things:
If the intention was for short-term help for an industry, six years is way to long. Fundamentally, on this one, the AFL/CIO is correct: companies use H1Bs to import cheap labor rather than retrain US citizens (the IT shortage is so bad that they retrain US citizen anyway, but look at other industries (like Civ Eng) that don't do this). "Temporary" is a joke. If people were serious about this, the term would be 3 years, max.
Remaining in the US after the 6 years is up is nigh-on-impossible, no matter how important you are to a company's wellbeing. When it's up, out you go. Getting a subsequent H1B to come back again is alot harder than getting the first H1B. This is stupid.
If you are here on an H1B, there are only 2 circumstances that I know of that allow you to remain here (ie, convert your H1B visa to some other sort of visa): (1) you marry a US citizen, in which case you get to apply for permanent residency (Green Card), or (2) apply for asylum/refugee status (which is horribly torturous). Companies can sponsor you for a Green Card if they want, but the rules require you to return to your home country while they consider your application. Which can take 6 months or a year (or alot longer). And there is no way you can stay on your own without a sponsor.
Fundamentally, H1Bs should be for 2-3 year, "work-and-leave" use, kinda like a contractor. We should create another type of visa which allows us to have people in for a period of time (several years) and then convert it easily to a permanent resident status. That way, we keep the smart ones here.
This is the worst part of the current H1B - we bring in lots of talented people, train them up in our stuff so we can make use of them, then send them back to their home country, full of knowledge on how we do business. Dumb! The U.S.'s major competative advantage is it's brainpower - if we don't try to keep our brainpower, then where does that leave us? For years, the U.S.'s immigration policy has been such that we skim the cream of intellectuals from other countries (e.g. get them to imigrate to the US) so we keep our brainpower as the top. The H1B actively defeats this idea. Stupid.
-Erik
There are always four sides to every story: your side, their side, the truth, and what really happened.
I think it's appaling the way these workers are being treated, it is certianly not what America is supposed to be about.
I quite agree, but wish to underline: People who pay the same taxes we do, but who still don't get to vote. Now, wasn't taxation without representation something of and anathema around here once upon a time? Just a thought.
The best newspaper in the USA: the Anderson Valley Advertiser.
Slaves? H1Bs aren't that much better off. If you don't like the work you are doing or was treated badly by your manager, you can just say F this, I quit. For a H1B, they have to go through a lot crap to switch companies and do a transfer. So they don't have as much freedom as say you or me.
They probably work for less pay, because a citizen can just walk off to another company like that. H1Bs have much less mobility in general. Plus some companies won't hire a H1B because it takes too damn long to do a transfer.
On the bright side, if those companies want them bad enough, they can probably hire some expensive immigration lawyer to show how employee x is very valuable to the US and get him a green card or something.
And what is with this idea that if they get deported, some of you might get jobs? Doesn't talent count for anything anymore?
Yes, but now America is quickly moving to a "fuck everyone else, gimme my dollar!" society. We can always bring a bunch of new ones in. Hell, what would you do if you were CEO and had shareholders breathing down your neck? Lessee, you can keep a bunch of American workers, pay them their $X dollars a year, or you could replace them with qualified, hard working immigrants who'll work for half as much? If they actually become patriated they'll start demanding equal pay and all sorts of outrageous stuff! As long as they're not citizens, businesses can rape them all they want. Once they become a potential threat to the bottom line, deport 'em and bring in a fresh batch. Government-sanctioned sweat-shops, anyone?
----
Dave
MicrosoftME®? No, Microsoft YOU, buddy! - my boss
- Dave
I keep hearing about this shortage of IT workers. What is really happening is that corporations are watching a health US IT labor market eat up a fraction of thier profits and are lobbying heavily to allow more forign workers into the country to try to bring the salaries down.
I think that the competitive salaries and frequent job hopping are not only good for most IT workers, but good for IT in general. Knowlwdge is sperad more quickly, more people have access to the knowledge and it is difficult for one company to hold on to a competitive edge for long. They must contiune to innovate (except maybe M$)creating new competitive advantages. The market grows, consumers get better products faster and smart motivated workers are rewarded with a better more flexible and lucritive work place.
This is not to say that we should shut the door and not allow any forign IT workers in. We should just be sure that the Government and Corporate America are not fixing the numbers to hurt IT workers.
-Dan Rode
"The green card process takes time and money. It is common to be sent home without the application process having reached any kind of conclusion."
Time - 6 years.
Money - An IT salary (sure beats a Burger King salary)
2 strikes on your arguement so far...
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Let me give you the lowdown
we (the US) have been doing this for almost as long as there was a US. People will recall the influx of chinese rail workers followed by immgration quotas in the 20's. There was also the braceros program where we brought, literally, as many mexicans as we possibly could into the mid west as farm workers before we expired their visas and sent them home.
Look, I personally think it's lame as hell, but people need to understand; this isn't a fucking melting pot! This country takes the best and brightest from every where we can, chew them up, and then spit them out. As fucked up as it is, that's *how* it is. Until the educated, skilled workers stop leaving their country to come here, this will continue.
huh?
---
Moderators: I've got tons of accounts, do your worst.
Posted by polar_bear:
I would have hoped that this story would highlight the obvious - national borders are becoming more and more ridiculous. You can fly anywhere in the world in under a day - you can communicate with someone around the world easily by picking up a phone or sending an e-mail in under a minute. So why is it that moving from one country to another is such a punishing ordeal?
Instead of arguing about how we can keep people from countries that have lower standards of living out of our country - perhaps we should be talking about raising their standards of living so that living in their country is as attractive as living here. I'm not talking about spending billions of dollars on aid programs that get sucked up by the power structures that exist in those countries - I'm talking about ending predatory labor practices that companies from the U.S. employ in other countries.
There is a shortage of tech workers in this country because we have created a very imbalanced economy here - we have a disproportionate number of information technology jobs here and a severe lack of unskilled labor jobs here. We've exported so much of our production to countries that have no labor regulations and concentrated all of the IT here. There is a widening gap in available jobs in this country - high-paying professional jobs or severely low-paying service jobs. Think about it.
I say require companies to pay federally required minimum wages wherever they do business - then you'll see plenty of IT jobs moving to India or wherever and labor moving back here. The techies in India (just an example, I hope no one is offended...) will be happy to work for a wage that would offend techies here, and companies faced with paying the same wage here or overseas for production-type labor would choose to do business here because the taxes and shipping would make it more attractive to do production here.
Think about it...
damned if you do, damned if you don't ...
"
Is this the quote of the day?
1. As a canadian, you have the luxury of taking advantage of one of the very few benefits (to canadians) of the nafta trade agreement. With your computer programming degree, you make the list of around 100 professional occupations allowed free reign across the border with a visa called the TN-1.
I worked for 3 years based in houston, texas as a geophysicist under this type of visa. It is also deemed a 'temporary' visa, but can be renewed annually (and so far, indefinitely) For more info about this, visit
http://www.grasmick.com/nafta.htm
(i have never taken advantage of this siteholder's legal services and no endorsement of same should be inferred)
2. RE: Fervent's whining that the U.S. is overly crowded already (#33) - hey, i've driven across your entire country from north to south and from washington state to niagara falls - you've still got plenty of space. (note to other canucks - much as i hate to admit it, our neighbours to the south have done a much better job at protecting their fabulous environments in the midst of human-populated areas - tho we like to spout off about the natural wonders of canada, we've done very little to put our money where our mouths are.)
3. Back to the topic at hand, the fault for the H1-B kerfluffle is not the government. I repeat, for those hard of hearing, IT AINT THE GOVERNMENT'S FAULT. As lophophore noted (#30), H1-B workers tend to be exploited by their u.s. employers. regardless of the advantages they receive personally from the situation, the employees have to look out for themselves. You'd think that after a company has shafted enough of these visa holders, that word would filter back to the homeland.
However, the multinational that i worked with was a bit more enlightened. when one of my co-worker's H1-B visa expired, the company transferred him to the U.K. for a year and then brought him back - there's nothing stopping any u.s.-based multinational from doing the same thing except for greed and insensitivity. Blame those unenlightened corporations for cheating the visa holders and the u.s. economy, not the government.
a final warning to canucks who do decide to take advantage of the TN-1 visa - remember these experiences of the H1-B holders and don't be too suprised if the TN-1 visas lose their preferred status. don't get suckered by the 'green card' fantasies that the companies wave in front of you - out of the 7 canadians that i knew who were waiting for their green card application to go thru, not one of them has yet received an approval. (going on 5 years now)
glad to back in the great white north,
senatorhung
http://www.versatiletroubleshooter.com
for the experienced librarian, google is merely one tool of many
There is no equivalent visa program in Germany. There are very few
countries that will repatriate you after you have built a life in the
country for such a long length of time.
Wow! What an incredible amount of xenophobia has been generated by this story!
All that aside, it will be interesting to see how this effects the US economy (currently causing just about every other country major currency palpitations) when all these workers start to leave.
Anyway, I hope the crisis (if it is one) prompts the US to do two things:
1. Do right by the many many talented workers whose efforts help to make America the economic wonder of the world, &
2. Replaces the current unweildy-and-prone-to-manipulation system with a better one.
Aside: I'm kinda wasting a little time daydreaming about an America that understands the brain drain (from experience) that most other "English speaking" countries have experienced to the US over the last x years! Would that knowledge help make good visa law? Maybe.
The real bugger is that the green card process has been made so complicated and lengthy that the almost normal transition from H1B to green card through employment is hell for alot of people, who tend to start staying alot longer on H1B visas and it also leads to a higher turnover rate in people coming and going on those visas.
Reason for having the H1B program is a mere result of the industry realizing that there is a shortage of willing people to take jobs, and that alot of foreigners are higher skilled than US citizens that are considered equivalent. That's not meant as an insult to anyone, but as a mere stating of truth (and a very well known one).
Face it... Immigration law sucks; people come here and get somewhat abused by the H1B program (but obviously willingly do so - I know, since I did it); and it is very easy to abuse people that are here on an H1B. But hey... no one forces people to come to the US on an H1B.
The main problem with the H1B program has nothing to do with workers being deported etc... It's a case of mixed intent. People come to work for a US company on an H1B because they want to make use of the dual intent status of H1B visas, meaning that the intent is both to be in the US temporarily and to apply for a green card to immigrate permanently. That's a major flaw, because people really use the H1B as a foot-in-the-door to immigate to the US. If the US government would make the immigration process sensible, there wouldn't be a need for a dual intent visa, and the H1B program wouldn't get stuck being a trampoline to immigrant status.
--
Its shocking and very dissappointing to read all the posting here. Even more dissappointing is the fact that these are views of slashdotters. Honestly expected them to be more "open" etc.
... my salary here makes a lot of my american coleagues here envious.
... blah blah" ... in probably better or worse words.
:-).
As someone who recently started work in the US, I wish I had known earlier that deep down even the bright Americans are of such opinions. I came to the US not because I earn a higher salary here... To all the "frogs in the well" here who think that Indians come here to avoid starving... incidentally my purchasing power in India was much higher than out here and before you conclude
I came here to work with the best people in the industry.
A lot of you will yell at me saying "Go back if you don't like this
All I have to offer such people is "thank you" for letting me know the true feelings of americans towards people like me - they are too ashamed to say such things on my face
I wish more Indians just leave this country to run itself... Good luck.
Look folks--H1B is not about a path to citizenship. In practice it is a mechanism for importing skilled foreign labor on a contract basis, just like the Kuwaitis or Germans do, except that they're up-front about classifying the foreign workers as 2nd-class citizens. The American green-card bit is mostly carrot. Don't think so? Then why is the INS *still* understaffed, and *still* processing visas manually (or so my friends on H1B's tell me)?
Sending home the current crop of H1B holders before they can get their green cards is entirely consistent with the industry practice of avoiding expensive experienced employees. After all, these experienced H1B holders have figured out some of their rights, aren't intimidated as easily, and are probably going to quit their sponsored job the moment they do get their green card.
What do I think can be done about this?
1. Don't increase the H1B pool size.
2. Allow H1B holders to change jobs as easily as a citizen, after some reasonable commitment to
their sponsoring employer (eg. 1 year).
3. Couple H1B sponsorship to US citizen hiring on a one-for-one basis, in the same field.
4. Actually enforce the limitation of H1B visas to jobs that are difficult to fill--shut down the IT contracting body shops made up of over 50% H1B indentured servants.
Remain calm! All is well!
The deal at the outset was for six years. That would suggest to me that whoever holds an H1B should either plan on leaving the country after six years or should start the wheels churning to either gain citizenship or permanent residency status.
The whole H1B issue is a bitter pill for all sides, except possibly the employers. The companies hiring the visa holders got well-trained professionals for a fraction of the price of a non-H1B individual. While that probably didn't leave any programmers or engineers without a job, it certainly had some effect on their salaries.
The whole H1B issue is a concoction of high tech companies anyway. "They" complained bitterly about the tech "shortage", when in fact, there is no shortage, but rather full employment. Product is shipping, code is being written...but without the safety valve of the H1B workers, salaries could be much higher. The real victims, by the way, are the H1B'ers in that they end up working for a pittance (relatively speaking), then have to leave.
And they do have to leave. That was the deal from the beginning. So don't feel sorry for them because they have to live up to the deal they agreed to, feel sorry for them because they are really just pawns in a game.
=h=
Actually, the point to this is a very cruel one. I'm speaking of this out of experience so think about it a minute. When an employee is with a company a few years, he typically gets raises and other benefits increased. A new worker would start with the same starting pay. sometimes this benefit, can actually offset the cost of retraining. I know, cause we did the math, and at our business we have actually done exactly that to cut costs.
Sorry, No sig!
There is a good reason for this. If you lie on you application for citizenship, say about your stint as the commander of a death squad, the INS can revoke your citizenship and deport you. Don't let the door hit your butt on the way out.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
If this is true, laws are being broken.
Where I work, there are lots of H1-B workers, and they're paid exactly the same as anyone else. The only inequity, if you can call it that, is that they can't switch jobs at the drop of a hat, so they aren't as apt to join the newest, hottest startups.
When I was in Saudi, I had the opportunity to befriend some folks in a similar, but much worse situation. In Saudi, they "import" workers from the Philipines, Pakistan, India and other areas. These workers give up their visas and passports when they enter the country. They work very hard and long days, living in shanty towns on a small fraction of their earnings that are paid to them upfront. When their term is up (assuming they do not get into any type of trouble at all), they get the balance of their money, their ID's and are sent on their way. Granted most of these folks are manual workers, but some are in "high-tech" fields too. We tried to get a few of them (including a DB programmer) into the States on visas, but the red-tape was endless.
It seems ironic, having spent many years in south-west Texas, that these workers are being deported, while the schools are filled with illegal's. That is what upsets me. Granted the H1 holders know their visa is limited, granted there are ways of getting extensions and obtaining citezenship. Shouldn't we make it easier for current H1 residents to apply for citizenship rather than deport them and import new wage-slaves...of course I guess that is the idea after all.
So, there is no contractual agreement. Any immigrant that comes to the US relies on the good will of Americans and the word and promises of the US government. They start building their lives here because they have an expectation that if they behave well and are successful, they will be treated fairly. In the past, that has been good enough.
Saying "you should have gotten it in writing" is therefore meaningless. There is nothing to get in writing, and hiding behind a legalistic phrase like that would not restore the good will that people lose when this sort of thing happens to them.
I can't help but point out that this is an unbelievably racist statement.
If you want a good tech job, you'll need to learn the language that the technology world has settled on. That language is English. Case closed.
I've met plenty of people who are in the US with H1B visas, and their English is more than good enough for the job. Period.
The problem is intolerant USians who as soon as they see anybody who doesn't speak English natively as they do get all bitchy.
"They often make less than half the rate/salary of a US citizen or green card holder"
....), and then expect the non-immigrant to work 40 hrs/wk. In this case the non-immigrant should stand up to them (and unfortunately risk their job). Personally, I wouldn't be happy working for a company that treated my fellow co-workers like that. I have a couple of very good American friends who helped out several non-immigrants being abused by their employer in such a situation by telling the employer that they wouldn't stand for it either.
That's either a problem that should be rectified in the Labor Dept., or with your employer. Before an H1 petition can be filed, the job application must be approved by the state Labor Dept to ensure that it meets the prevailing wage. This is to ensure that non-immigrants are not cheap labour taking jobs from US citizens. Perhaps the prevailing wage is set too low? On the other hand, an inscruplous (sp?) employer could possibly word the job offering in a way that seems legal (e.g. we're offering a job for 30.23 hours / week @
The problem is not that H1-Bs are temporary and people expected them to suddenly turn permanent by themselves. The problem is that when people came here on H1-B visas, it was with the expectation (and, in many cases, the assurance by the company) that they would adjust to a green card (permanent residency). This used to take about six months to a year at most.
Now, with INS' bureaucratic bungling, that delay has grown to four years plus, and many people are finding that they are out of luck. It wasn't something they bargained for, and quite frankly it is not very fair for them to have to uproot their lives simply because "the paperwork didn't get done in time". Note that the majority of these people were not denied their green cards. They are being processed and in all likelihood will end up getting their green cards. However, until they come through these people are up the creek.
Oh, they'd like to stay in the US? Well, there are plenty of over-the-hill citizen programmers who'd like to stay in the industry ... compromises on all sides, that's what makes life fair.
"with their freedom lost all virtue lose" - Milton
...in America (at least we Americans are). Just as a part-owner of a business or a business partnership owns part of a business and makes his living from that business, and just as the benefits from owning that business (or part of it) accrue to the owners and their heirs, then we too, own this country, and make out living from it, and the benefits from that ownership accrue to us as owners and to no one else.
Imagine if you will, an analogy that can be found everywhere in the business world: A group of people form a business partnership, buy property, make improvements, such as a building, etc. They each get a part of the building to operate their respective business.
They all make a good living there. The improvements they made give them a competitive advantage.
Now suppose one or two of the owners decide that some of their friends should be able to open up shop in this building, even though these newcomers have not bought into the business, (or perhaps they got a great discount), and also they will compete against severeal of the current owners for business.
What do you think the current owners will have to say about this?
You see, what we have in America now is the good end of the business cycle. And we as owners should NOW be able to reap the benefits of our investment in this country (and our parents', grandparents', etc investments). And we will do so by selling our respective labor and services here in America, our place of business
But, some of the owners who do not sell their labor and services, but who instead BUY labor and services, naturally wish to arrange matters to THEIR benefit. Of course they do. But we as the majority of the shareholders should see things clearly and as they really are.
eat shiat and bark at the moon
Actually, if he's a Sikh (I dunno), Canada (Surrey, BC) has the largest ethnic Sikh population outside of India. He might be right at home, depending on where he goes.
Uh, yeah, we've read the article. Just because the border guard wanted to talk about baskeball instead of the temporary status of the H1B visa the guy was entering on, doesn't mean he should assume he will get permanent status. The H1B is a temporary visa and it is not on the official track towards citizenship. So, Big Business misleads these people, Big Business is constantly trying to screw little people over in any way they can.
As for the kid, that is weird. I would like to know more about that.
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
A lot of people who leave 3rd world countries to come to the US, would have come on student visa's to complete their M.S in Computer Science and so on.. After they finish their studies many of them will decide to stick on in the US because they would have become over qualified for taking on most jobs in their parent country.
When these people then leave the US, they will take with them their vast experiences and highly developed skills which the US companies would have spent millions to provide. The only viable option available to these people when they return to their parent country would be to start firms there and for this they will utilize the funds which they saved up while working in the US.
So the US will loose not just highly trained and highly skilled professionals but will also be weakening the economy by having the funds transferred out into possibly unfriendly destinations.
US is doing nobody but itself a favour by retaining these people. These people have contributed immensely to the US economy - for any information on these contributions - check to see how many silicon valley companies are manned/owned by foriegners. Don't shoot yourself in your feet by sending these people away.
Am I missing something? It says right on the fucking thing that it expires on X date. then when I expires they freak out? am I the only one that doesn't understand why they are so surprized and angry. I'm thinking if I was in India and I had a peice of paper that said I had to get the hell out of dodge on X date, I'd be thinking... hmm, okay, I'm outta here on this date instead of freaking out when that day came around. That and the average salary in Bangalore is $500 - yeah, I'd say even if they had some shit job @$30K over here, they are fucking living like kings. Fuck you and go home if you are going to complain, it says right on the fuckinng thing. don't act so suprised. if the law is stupid, then fine, but we all gotta follow it jackasses. I'm sick of working with idiots just b/c they will work for half the pay anyway.- ---------
----------------------------------------
There are some odd things afoot now, in the Villa Straylight.
This is just another example of the "government bad! open source good!" biased crap that is spewed from the Slashdot community.
As has already been said by many posters on here, they (immigrants) knew the visa was only temporary and lasts 6 years.
Its time for you hippies on Slashdot to grow up and realize that these people were bound to a contract (yes the visa) that they must honor.
So go smoke another one Hemos.
But it could easily have been slave conditions. My H1B visa allowed me to work for this one specific company in the U.S., and no other. If they fired me, I had to leave the country within ten days. Ten days! Sell my car, arrange to move all my possessions internationally, deal with ending my rental lease, blah blah f***ing blah, all within ten days!
And eventually, this is what did happen. The company, as high-tech startups are wont to do, went belly-up, leaving me stranded. I applied to get a tourist visa. This is trivially easy to do from outside the country; but impossible from inside, due to the beauracracy. Basically, this is one of the many parts of the INS which has ground to a complete halt. While this was going on, I applied for a job with the local library system. It was a job they'd advertised a bunch of times before, but not been able to fill, as they hadn't been able to find anyone with the right skillset. I, however, matched perfectly. This is what H1B's are about -- no American qualified to fill the job, so give it to a foreigner. They were all set to pay me US$45K to US$61K, when we found out how hard the immgration stuff was going to be. It would take 3 to 4 months to process my visa, and this processing had to be completed before I could do any work at all for my new prospective employer. Understandably, they turned down the opportunity to hire me.
And that 3 to 4 months was at the good end of the year! A month later, visas ran out, meaning that there would be a six month wait for the new year (with a new visa allotment) to start, and then 3 to 4 months on top of that! Outside the Silicon Valley firms which are specifically geared up to import tech workers, what organisation has any idea of what its high-tech employee requirements are going to be three to ten months ahead?
There are more visas for this coming "year" (which starts in October), which means that there won't be the six month wait, but with the same number of beauracrats to process way more visas, guess what? That's right, that 3 to 4 month wait is going to blow way out.
So I had to leave the US, leaving behind all my friends. I should mention that my experience was in the area aerved by the California branch of the INS. It is the one completely snowed by the influx to Silicon Valley; and I understand that other regional INS's are more on top of things.
It is my opinion that these massive delays have been allowed to creep in by three things: first, of course, the rapid increase in influx of workers; second in the US immigration law's attitude that America is the greatest country in the world and that if we didn't have these laws everybody in the world, all six bilion of them, would be on our doorstep tomorrow; and third in the fact that the people the INS serves generally aren't voters.
Actually, I'm still in college. Perhaps if you had read my original post?...
- I don't care if they globalize against free speech. All my best free thoughts are done in my head.
Well, learning more languages and understanding more cultures makes you a lot more aware about each one's limitations. "American" means somebody who is from the American landmass, of which the US occupies only a fraction.
What country are you from what is the reason you have a general dislike for people from the US.
I'm from the US. Miami. My father is half Irish, half Cuban, and my mother Haitian. And gee, the fact that you complain about my "general dislike for people from the US" (my country) only makes you look even stupider.
Unfortunately, over the last two years, INS processing has slowed down more than tenfold (!). As a result, people who had an expectation of being able to get their green card in time now face deportation because the INS didn't finish processing their green card application before their H1B ran out.
So, the problem isn't that people knew that their visa was temporary, but that the INS fails to process green card applications in a timely manner. This caught everybody by surprise: visa holders, consulates, and immigration attorneys.
But I agree to this degree: while in the past, H1B visa holders could expect a fairly painless transition to a green card, that is clearly not the case anymore. People who are considering coming to the US now should expect that the situation with the INS will further deteriorate. I think that makes the US considerably less attractive to skilled immigrants.
You left out an important word... shortage of skilled programmers and other tech workers in the U.S. And it's true. There is a shortage of skilled programmers. Any idiot can spew Java and call it a program -- and somebody will try to sell it. It's very hard to find skill workers. Part of the difficulty is simply screening all the applications -- people do lie or otherwise "colorize" their resume. Then actually interviewing people... I can recall two interviewees that I couldn't get out of my office fast enough. They looked good on paper. *sheesh*
In my experience (being an American), most American workers are lazy and take little pride in their work. Notice I'm using the word "most"; everyone isn't a lazy mooch, but the majority are. The larger the company the more likely you are to see this. Everyone I've ever known with an H1 was unquestionablly skilled and took great pride in their work.
True, but remember, the US unemployment rate is at very record low levels. This is despite of the great number of immigrants to the US. Why? Because there just aren't enough PEOPLE in this country to take up all the jobs. India and China have populations of 1 billion + .. US has around 300 million.
Also when the Unemployment rate nears 2%, things start getting wild and people start getting afraid of inflation.
These immigrants are taking up positions that US citizens CANNOT fill. Unless they all sit down and start procreating frantically and getting a dozen kids each. But even if they do that, the industry will have to wait about 20 years before it will get a large trained workforce.
Sorry, No sig!
It is not facism , not even close. These people were perfectly aware of conditions of H1 agreement.
You may call it rather bad economical move but not facism.
yup.
but then most companies are doing the same damn thing with residents too - when was the last time you saw a company with a 1/6th turnover rate? hell even IBM doesn't have that good a rate in a LOT of labs; pittsburgh was at a 33% burn rate the last I heard. naw, the sleazy vending companies (keane, ciber) are using the H1B angle and hanging over people's heads; but everyone else is just as anxious to get rid of folks in the "uppity-type skilled employees" category... the folks that start meetings with questions like "will management ever pull it's collective head out of it's ass long enough to make a decent decision?"
It's pretty sad really... I've worked with a few folks on H1Bs, about half of them were/are top notch talent we were/would be screwed to lose. The other half are about as clueless as the locally produced community college kid with a associates degree in CIS (Q:"Do you have any experience?" A:"I know how to work Word and Excell" Q:"You realize you're applying for an engineering position, not a secretarrial, right?") Unfortunately we can't keep the former and can't get rid of the latter.
You got your H1B, good for you, i know that it took at least some effort (hand in the air to indicate sarcasim)
So you get into your exciting shinny job in the land of the free, get home from work on your first day and.... have a bud with a ordered in curry. Or you decided that with a little bit more effort you could secure a green card if you started then and there.
I am sorry, but if did not capalise on the promising situation, and instead brought cars, houses, white pick fences.................
I have tried for a H1B, but the Gov had run out. Maybe one of the next batch, that is if the lawyer my friendly Boston company picks, makes it past the post before the bulk of the pack.
Do lawers travel in packs.. or is it a gaggle....
I had a SIG once... it was years ago.
You don't belong to a corner, by any chance?
hah... "Our Germans are better than their Germans."
I don't think the initial spirit was to patriate those who offered value to the country. What does the plaque on the statue of liberty, one of the greatest American symbols, say? "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore, Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me: I lift my lamp beside the golden door."
NOT added-value.
There is a fine line between being a cultivated citizen and being someone else's crop. - A. J. Patrick Liszkie
All philosophers who railed against a religion based ethical structure and who advocated a more humanist/atheist structure failed miserably whereas Adam Smith smashed the religions so hard there is not one modern religious leader who will speak out against mindless greed. Jesus chased the money changers and Fallwell raises money for the republicans. As an atheist it makes me warm all over.
A Dick and a Bush .. You know somebody's gonna get screwed.
War is necrophilia.
In the silicon valley IT IS incredibly hard to find decent people!!! Where I work we have been trying to hire e-commerce support people starting at high 60s, low 70k range (standard salary in this huge company) and it is nearly impossible!!!! Either they only know some basic NT stuff or they have so many offers that we get passed over. This is not a job where you have to work 80 or 90 hours a week either.
Scuttlemonkey is a troll
If you just explain to the politicians that without these vital people, they might now be able to get pr0n as easily, and watch quick legislation.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Of course, if I were going for the malace thing, I'd put forth the hypothesis that the guys who've been here 6 years know the ropes and know how to squeeze the employer for a fair shake. Meanwhile the new guys coming in don't yet know the ropes and so employers can get away with paying them 1/2 to 2/3rds what their American counterparts make for a few years until they learn the ropes.
Of course, I'm hopelessly paranoid, too.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
I hate to say this, but they came here knowing that exportation at the end of their term was a possibility. I feel badly for those getting sent back, but that was the original deal, and if, by the end of their term, they didn't get resident status, well, those are the rules they signed up for.
Please note that every H1B employee I've ever met has been in the process of getting their green card through their employer. If that employer dragged their feet through the process (which, for the record, it's in their interest to do), then they should have seen it coming.
This tugging at heartstrings for "six years of their lives" is badly misplaced. Blame the employers who weren't straight with the workers.
ceci n'est pas un sig.
Actually, from what I've read, it's the opposite. FedEx has always been griping that they can't attract enough competent tech talent into the area and that the local schools can't produce enough. I'm certain that they probably don't want to pay what they do in CA or other places. so recent grads thinking that they are going to land a $60-80K job are in for a shock. Memphis also isn't known for having a lot of high-tech companies either. Most of the hi-tech people that I know work at a handful of big corps and that's it. It has been said that FedEx built their new tech center in Collierville to get away from Memphis' 'problems' in order to help it recruit people. That being said, when I moved here 5 years ago, I got in on a Saturday, looked through the Sunday paper, interviewed with a contracting company on Monday, and was working on Wednesday. I was hired by the company I worked at a few months later and I've been there ever since. For a period of time it seemed that the company would go through periods where a lot of tech people would quit for better paying jobs across town or other places in the country. They have since re-evaluated the compensation scheme to shore up the turnover rate =) (I really like my job, especially when they keep giving me raises. However, given what I know about the Memphis area now, I wouldn't have moved here, even though I'm making 2.5x what I used to before).
Yes the H1B people are a lot cheaper. Why would any company go through the trouble of importing people and put up with the communication problems if they weren't cheaper. My manager would like to hire more permanent US employees, but due to budget reasons, he has to get Indians.
the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
Some posts are good no matter how often you recycle them. It's a good thing slashdot rehashes the same story every two weeks, or you might tire of cutting&pasting.
Well, before the stock give-aways, he rented housing and drove a Pontiac. He now owns a house in SV and drives a BMW Z3. Sure, he may not be stinking rich like the Yahoo founders, but he's certainly well off, much more so than the typical H1B visa recipient.
the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
I for one think that this so-called surplus of coders doesn't exist, but no matter...up here in the Great White North, your fingers get cold in a hurry when you leave them on the keyboard for too long. The extra help should keep me warmer, without even having to go for a toque.
Are you listening, hapless H1B talents who got conned by Uncle Sam? Pay a visit to Silicon Valley North, i'm tired of coding after the hockey's started...
j
So why is Slahdot acting as if this were some human rights issue?
I get worked up about immigrants being brough to this country as slave labor (my ancestors arrived here in that way). I get worked up about people being expelled who have legitimate fears of persecution at home. I get worked up about the international trafficking in women and children...
And my Apache wife has even less sympathy for them... I'm just glad she lets me stay! ;)
All about me
There is no IT shortage. There is a shortage of companies willing to pay for talent. If you don't see, you aren't looking. Contract companies LOVE H1B people - they can pay you a third what they pay me and you'll be happy about it - or you'll be afraid of being deported (I mean 'you' figuratively) I am not saying ALL H1B visa people are undercutting U.S. jobs & wages. But 90% are. VB is a joke. Real coders already know this. That's why there are some many people coding in it that don't know a thing about coding. You employer was stupid to hire you IF he was going to allow you to become a major cog in his machine - You and he both knew you were a temp. And I'm quite willing to bet he's getting more of a deal on you than you realize. Otherwise, why use you - he'd be better off with a citizen. So, he gets no sympathy from me. Whether you are a benfit or a burden isn't the point, now is it? You signed up for a temporary job. It's the chance you took. Personally, I'd rather you (H1B visa people) be citizens - then maybe my wages wouldnt' get undercut.
The Game Guy
Which goes to show you haven't been paying too much attention. Living in many parts of the US (particularly the Bay Area) is very expensive, and many H-1B holders are being paid exploitatively low salaries. The combination means you either live like a dog here in order to save some of that salary and hope to take it back home, or you spend your time in the US without saving anything. I've been here almost three years and I'm definitely in the latter category - I have zero savings from my US stay (and not because of any fancy living). I've heard the same from most of my network of H-1B holders.
I'm surprised that this post is rated "insightful". The person did not provide any evidence of his claim that IT shortage is a myth, while both government and independent agencies have reported studies of over 800,000 IT positions unfilled. The person also is repeating the same old rhetoric that has been posted hundreds of times on every other online tech news source (try zdnet). If you want some credibility, provide some concrete evidence of your claim that there's no IT shortage. It's easy to get protective and paranoid about your job - it's even more convenient to find fault somewhere else other than within yourself when things don't go as you wish.
... are the companies thinking long-term in this country if they are judged by the beast of Wall Street on the quarterly basis ??? :-(
Tigers respect lions, elephants and hippos. Maggots respect no one. (C) S. Dovlatov
what happens to the salary protection offered by the H? by getting rid of it, you open the way for unscrupulous companies to hire IT workers from places like India and Malaysia that pays about $5000/year for peanuts rather than hire americans. business is cut throat. these companies prosper. other companies are forced to slash IT salaries to compete.
end result: programmers/IT workers start making 25k a year because the market is flooded with immigrants to whom this will be a vast improvement.
at least the H offers some protections for both the alien and american workers.
if you want to jump ship, have the new employer file another H for you. i really doubt that $30k training penalty is going to hold up for more than 5 minutes in court.
All systems based on violence and force (whether communism, fascism, or capitalism) exist through the use of the Nation State.
You do make a good point. Under a minarchist capitalist system, the Nation State enforces private property rights, giving it a monopoly on the use of force in that area.
What it all boils down to is whether private property is theft (wasn't it Bakunin that said that?) or private property is absolute (a la capitalism).
Without the Nation State, capitalism would collapse.
Not sure about that. Check David D. Friedman's site... he's perhaps the most prominent contemporary individualist anarchist (aka anarcho-capitalist). There are some good writings on his site, in which he explores various voluntary private institutions as replacements for coercive government ones. (private neighboorhood associations instead of county housing boards, for example)
--
Well, now that would be awfully convenient. "Honey, you about to give birth? How bout we take a vacation to the 'states?" She has the kid, and hey, whaddya know- it's an american citizen. What do we do in that case?
As a foreign (Australian) high-tech worker reaching the end of my tenure on an American work permit, where do I go next?
I certainly don't want to go back to Australia. I've been here in the US for 12 years - I've become accustomed to a safe, stable economy, especially a high tech one - where bandwidth is plentiful, and the means to purchase it is within the reach of a competent technologist (I can function in sysadmin and system programming capacities).
So where do I go next? I can get a 2 year work permit for Japan, which I'm seriously considering, or I can try my luck at Finland. I'm mobile - I don't *have* to stay rooted to US soil if it doesn't want me (and it doesnt look like it does) - as long as the bandwidth is there.
Any suggestions for markets and economies that can support a geek culture would be greatly appreciated. I've got Japan and Finland on my list, but I don't know if there are better places to go - perhaps I should let my resume free in distant lands and see where it takes me.
Because, sure enough, if the US doesn't want my talent and skill, I have no reason to live here, that's for sure...
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
Amazing...to think that expressing my opinion is flame bait. I guess if you don't join in with the bleeding hearts you're just asking for flames.
I'm the big fish in the big pond bitch.
This is either flame-bait, or you're going to get a big surprise in about 10 years when India takes away half the programming jobs in the US - built partly on the skill of returning H-1B workers.
Rather than depriving America of her lifeblood of immigration, and to avoid overcrowding, we really ought to deport the useless people and offer the geeks the citizenship formerly held by the non-producers.
We can export the lazy, native-born Americans to Europe, where they'll fit right in with the prohibitions against ambition and hard work--and who will notice a few more unworthies on the dole? Hey, I know, let's empty the prisions of the potheads, and export THEM to Amsterdam.
Add a few salesmen (the Internet is making them obsolete), lawyers (parasitic net negative producers), and politicians (ditto), and we'd have a wonderful exchange!
Immigrants make the best Americans; they care, they believe in this nation, and they're always willing to work their butts off to find the dream. Unions, racists, and bluebloods hate them for various reasons. Big business just wants to use them while keeping them in their place.
You're wrong when you say "nobody forces these people to live here and work here"...
The fact is, economies being what they are, the average Indian programmer would much rather move from the Indian culture and Indian economy, and all of its liabilities, to an American one.
And this desire is *exploited* by American corporations. They take advantage of the fact that the Indian situation is worse than the American one (or so it would seem), and based on the Indian programmer desire to leave it, they offer them less wages, thinking that the conditions of American existence *make up for* the loss in wages - since the demand is there on the part of the Indian programmer, companies factor in this 'living standard' as part of the deal.
This 'living standard' is a fact of life for US-born residents. Thus, this is exploitation on the part of the Indian-programmer-hiring corporation - something that is a *right* for anyone else in the country, is being used as a reason for reduced payroll, just because the foreigner has a demand for that standard of living.
That's the exploitation...
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
The reliance on marriage as a backdoor has left some of my friends contemplating getting their partners married off in a sham wedding to an American Lesbian who wants a European Passport. Don't laugh, it happens.
Just wanted to point out that for some Americans, it's not that easy at all.
Your nick says everything.. Anonymous coward. You shouldnt be afraid to lose out on a couple of karma points to show what you believe in, you karma whore. But then again, you just proved your point.. :)
Rapid Nirvana
...that U.S. immigration law contributed, in an ever-so-tiny way, to the rise of spam on the Internet; our illustrious friends Canter and Siegel ("the green card lawyers") sent what is, to my knowledge, the first Usenet spam, in April 1994.
To play devil's advocate here..
..
First off, before all of the whiny californian hippies attack me, I am not racist and am dating a foreign worker right now.. So stop before you start.
In a startup environment, I wouldn't hire a foreign worker if I could avoid it depending on the startup. If The whole company is going to have a 3 month learning curve with a dba, when those are 3 months we're trying to build the company to start, then we've got a problem. Now if his/her english skills are adequate, it's a different story. At a startup I worked at recently, We had a very, very, very technically talented sikh fellow, he knew oracle like the back of his hand and was a mean sysadmin to boot. But It took at least a half hour to give him a request or take one.. I found myself devoting an hour and a half each day with him in hopes to improve his english.. His normal english was actually pretty good, but he couldn't talk about technology enough..
Now get off this guy's back, 90% of you calling him a racist are college students who've never known what it's like to stay up 28 hours @ work because you had hardware failures in the middle of a massive code rewrite/network redesign/etc
"And how can this be? For he is the
I think that's called an O visa. I heard of a young 20 something year old guy who got it by mistake, and the immigration official at the customs was astonished that he had an O status at such an early age.
I'm sure there are companies looking for a C/php developer here in Munich.
There actually IS a similar program in Germany, but with a twist that makes a difference: a minimum wage for foreign programming labor that is HIGHER that what is paid to a fair part of the programmers here.
I'm still trying to figure out what people mean by 'social skills' here.
I don't recall that I said anything about my parents, grandparents, great-grandparents, etc.
Would you like to hear about my great-grandfather? The German Immigrant who became a citizen JUST so he could join the US Military, fight overseas AGAINST Germany, and gain a Purple Heart in the process?
As opposed to the majority of them, who simply came here and hid, hoping never to see the country again. That's what the rest of their friends did. They came on a boat like rats, and hid like rats from an exterminator when they arrived.
Some of these people are worthwhile. A teacher at school's husband applied for a green card a year ago. He's getting one. Why? They were persistent. They called the consulate OFTEN. They wrote letters. They talked to the INS. Congressmen. You don't wait until they're throwing you out to call up and say 'Hey, where's my green card?' You do something about it.
This signature does not exist. It has never existed. It is all a figment of your imagination.
Posted by polar_bear:
We have to import workers because there's a limited percentage of people in this country who are inclined to technical careers. It's not just a matter of going to school to learn to code - you have to have a desire to do that type of work. Money is not a sufficient motivator to induce everyone to pursue a career they're not suited to. Plus, do we really want people who are just in it for the money? For the most part they're likely to be mediocre techies at best.
I agree that whenever Congress gets involved it usually makes a mess, but that doesn't mean that people who want to live in the US should suffer because of it. It's really disturbing to see so many people espousing a "us" and "them" mentality.
Naturalization is not allowed while on an H1-B visa. Permanent residence status ("green card") must be obtained first. Almost any H1-B visa holder would love to get permanent residence, but it's not that easy. Applications take years to process and have a high chance of refusal.
i was reading an article recently about a factory in india that had two sets of sewing machines for the workers: one of electric machines, and one of foot-pedal-powered machines. when the power went out (not if), they would get up and switch to the manual power set to keep making the clothes until the power came back on.
i dunno about you, but it's probably pretty hard to run a 24/7 internet startup server in india when the power goes out and infrastructure is poor.
eudas
Blessed is he who expects the worst, for he shall not be disappointed.
It is a protest on the whole Jon Katz + /. ideology of "g**kness", as these open-minded yet right thinking, diverse yet alike, people who develop (mostly useless) technology, get paid tons of cash, "value people according to their merit" yet think most other people to be idiots, and such.
BTW, I agree with the rest of your post. I said elsewhere that I should have put an "all else being equal" in my original statements.
...here's my two bits:
Admittedly, the US is definitely a better place to settle (live, work, raise kids, etc.) than my own country. I worked in the US for two years, having been sponsored by my company (clue: we recently split from an accounting firm) under an L-1. In my situation, we were responsible for training American counterparts.
I honestly think everyone got a fair deal out of it: they were able to acquire our "knowledge capital" while we had a slice of the pie for two years. Did I come to US hoping to get an H1B along the way? Admittedly, yes. When I did get my H1B, would I have wanted to eventually settle in the US? Again, yes. Did I see a shortage of skilled IT workers in the Valley? IMHO, definitely. The people I trained were raw college grads who were going into a field (telecoms/mainframe dev't) working with a software package that had few experts. We stayed in California for two years, and I personally trained over twenty people. More than half quit after a year to go to start-ups.
You know the funny thing: after those two years, they decided to move the project offshore, to my country. The American office didn't want any part of it because it was not eRelated, and were afraid they were going to lose more consultants to start-ups if they staffed people on the same project.
What's the point of the story? Just this, there is a niche for H1B holders, and there are fields where they should be allowed to transition to holding green cards. Either that, or we're going to stay in our own respective countries and start taking over your work from offshore.
Am I still thinking of getting an H1B? I don't know...I'm starting to like working in a tropical paradise...
Like you said, the key word is temporary. The visa holders knew this coming in, so "investing six years here" is secondary. If they don't have a sponsor for them staying here longer by then, I think that indicates some sort of an issue. Send 'em back! They're not citizens. They're visitors.
Speaking as a Canadian programmer who would one day like to work in the US (I'm just finishing up university in a few months), this really sucks. I know what a hastle it is just to get into the US using a student visa. (Passports, notarized affidavits from government agencies, bank statements.) One plan I had was to finish up university in the States and then start working there right out of college. (Or stay in Toronto, which ever was more feasible.)
Well, now it seems Toronto is the way to go. Getting to the States to study is a hastle enough, seems like staying there is even worse.
J
A four-bedroom house with a two-stall garage in Bangledesh is about a 1000 times cheaper than one in Silicon Valley.
Trolls throughout history:
Jonathan Swift
I can't figure out what's unfair about this.
I agree that it's unethical for employers to pay people less just because they can. I also agree that it's not very cool of the United States to send these people home. But what's unfair about it?
These people agreed to the terms of the work permits, or they wouldn't have come in the first place. Nobody forces them to take any job, they agree to take the jobs. When the work permit runs out, they have to go home. Nobody should EVER operate under the assumption that their contract won't be enforced just because it hasn't been in the past, or other people aren't having theirs enforced.
The US government and companies do a lot of unethical things, but it also takes two to tango. Something feels really wrong about people willfully and knowingly entering into contracts such as employment and visas, and then getting upset when the terms of those contracts that they agreed to suddenly aren't 100% in their favor.
Again, ethically, some of this isn't all that cool. But where is it unfair?
-- Truth goes out the door when rumor comes innuendo. -- Groucho Marx
Graylisting? Half our recent hires have had gray hair! The last person I seriously wanted to recruit was over 50 (it was a sys admin type job, and the candidate was largely self taught and trained.)
Computer prgrammers are a lot like lawyers. Fresh out of school, raw talent and education matter a lot. As they age, you start to see their true worth... do they have a solid philosophical grounding in the field, are they staying up to date with the latest developments? Or are they retreating into narrow fields of expertise where specialized knowledge is the value-added skill? The first you want, the second you should avoid.
I would like to address responses of the form: if they were smart, they should have know that they were getting a temporary visa. They knew what they were getting into.
No.
This is probably the sort of thing they were told: "We want you. Bad. It takes ages to get a green card for you, and we want you to start working right away. Why don't we bring you over on a H1B, and apply for permanent residence for you as you work?" This is neither misrepresentation nor a lie. An honest employer could easily give this offer without intending to fleece the worker nor the INS. And H1B allows "dual intent": you may enter with the intent of being a temporary worker, but also with the simultaneous intent to gain permanent residence.
So what was the problem? The INS. The backlog grew until even the H1B period was insufficient. The "Adjustment of Status" part (Linus Torvald's current status when he testified) used to take 60-90 days in the early 80s. Now it takes 2-3 years for that part ALONE. Those from highly represented countries (India in particular, China too) had it worst. This appears to be what happened to those interviewed in the article.
The bottom line is that many entered the country with the intention of becoming permanent residents, as allowed by the law. Unfortunately, their country quotas and INS' backlog are now wrecking that original plan, and their green card applications are still stuck in the deep dungeons of the INS, still waiting.
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
the shortage is for cheap captive labor
I don't find cheap labor, foreign or domestic, to be a threat. If a company's main goal is to find the cheapest employees possible, they're cutting their own throats. If a company wants to pay someone half of what I'm making, they'll get an employee with 1/10th the skills, and I'll laugh my ass off as their projects fail after becoming late and overbudget. If a company wants to fail, I let it fail and move on. Why would you let it trouble you?
as an older programmer, I have seen many of my friends and colleagues choose other lines of work
"As an autoworker, I have seen . . ."
The point I am trying to make is that you simply need to adapt. Instead of sounding like Abe Simpson ("I'm old. Gimme, gimme, gimme!"), you have to sit down and figure out what your skills are and what the market is for those skills. Yes, you may have to get out of a bad market, which might mean switching jobs or taking to an entirely new industry. Tough hop. Stop crying and deal with it.
if the public ever realizes the fraud being perpetrauted, there will be real outrage
You seem to think they don't realize that their software is buggy or their tech support is bad. Not only do they know things are bad, they don't care! And that's the nature of the market. Unless you can show a company that you have the skills to do a better job, they will hire someone cheaper who will still fit within their rough tolerances for performance (i.e., the customer keep buying the product) and, I can't stress this enough, it doesn't matter if the cheaper worker is foreign or domestic . In our free market, you got outbid.
And then we wonder why our best and brightest opt for medical school or law school ... wake the fuck up
Actually, smart people tend to do something because they enjoy doing it, not because it pays well, and it just so happens that someone doing a job well (smart or not) will end up making more money than someone who does a job poorly (surprised?). If someone wants to become a doctor or lawyer, I would hope it's because they like that line of work, not because a spreadsheet calculated that they'd make the most money doing it. And I'd think you'll find that it really is the people who do their job (whatever the field) best that get paid the best. I personally don't care what people make in other fields, either. I'm doing my job. not theirs. They would not be making my money doing my job unless they were equally skilled, and vice versa. I don't have a problem with that.
pay for programmers is a fraction of what it was 20 years ago, measured in real dollars ... programmers in the 60s made 100K+ per year
And in the 60s it actually meant something to be a programmer, just like it actually means something to be a doctor even today. But in software development today, any goon who read the latest "Idiot's Guide to Programming For Dummies in 21 Days" can call themselves a programmer. They flood the market and bring the average salary down, sure, along with the average quality. But if you look at absolute numbers, I would wager that there are more skilled programmers making over $200K/year today than there were making $100K/year (adjusted) in 1960. I would agree that a market is in a sad state when it would rather hire 4 clueless wannabe's at $50K than one competent guru at $200K, but it is up to you to find a different market if you can't change or work within your current market. To claim that it is somehow the fault of the government or foreigners or college grads is denial at it's best. Your old colleagues don't have a right to a high salary unless they can produce high quality in a market that values it.
Had you read the article, you'd realize that the government changed the wording on the H1B to imply that it was a path to a green card and then citizenship. To quote from the article:
Again, it's only "the truth" if you redefine "communication" as "speaking English to your insatiable standards".
The obvious reason why this discussion is going in circles is that your opponents are using a definition of "communication skills" that is more or less like the following: "ability to communicate with the particular people that live around you". Let's review how this definition might work:
Myself, living in America: good communication skills
Myself, living almost anywhere else in the world: bad communication skills
Person who speaks French, German, and Italian, living in Switzerland: good communication skills
Same person, living in America: bad communication skills
This isn't a very good definition of communications skills, since it means that they change as you travel, but it's nonetheless not prejudiced on the basis of language ("racist", as you put it). It just appeared prejudiced because America was the only country in the topic of discussion. Of course, it's possible that people did mean to be prejudiced. However, I think my explanation is more likely, as it explains why people were so indignant at being called "racist".
while i agree the INS is an absolute nightmare to deal with a) Labor really isn't much better and if they took on adjudicating all of the work-related immigration into the US would bog down instantly and b) yes you do need and organization like the INS for people coming into the US. they're the border police. every country has 'em. they make sure tourist remain tourists and don't end up staying. they make sure students don't blow up the world trade center (or at least they try to). stuff like that.
There is. You just wrote it, didn't you?
We prefer Yanks or Merkins.
Then how do you propose to translate "estadounidense" or "étatsunien" into English?
Yes, government has real strategy.
Think of all the social security taxes these H1Bs pay.
They never get a cent back as benifit out of it, neither they can claim it back.
The government rants that trillions of dollars of social security money will only suffice until year 2029!
Not to be overly critical of your company, but that just doesn't jibe. Firstly, I don't care where in the USA you are, but decent people cannot be had for $75K unless they have absolutely no idea about their market value (e.g., they've worked for you with blinders on since you snapped them up out of college). Given the high cost of living in CA/Silicon Valley, $75K is a joke to anyone with skill; I wouldn't consider a job there for less than $125K without some *major* perks. So it is not at all surprising that your company gets "passed over", since it sounds like an average company with average jobs for average people. If you want to attract "non-standard" (read: talented) people, you have to give them non-standard incentives. That doesn't necessarily mean money, either. Talented people just don't like cookie-cutter positions, plain and simple.
I am sure that these are good people. I am sure that these are talented people. I am also sure that it is about damn time that US companies start reinvesting in the citizens of the US.
O.k. it is more complicated than that. You have UNIONS ripping companies off everyday. Companies are taxes so much that the owners have to create orifices in which to send the flow. I know all of this.
However, continuing to flood our country (no offense to other countries) with people who are not citizens is a horrific practice.
Each country should invest in their own people. If they won't, it isn't our problem.
Sorry.. Not to be harsh but the US has its own slew of problems it must deal with before we can continue to play nursemaid and teacher to others.
Get your PostgreSQL here: http://www.commandprompt.com/
My company (a high-tech company in the Silicon Forest) placed one ad (one day!)for one helpdesk analyst position. The result? Nearly 100 applicants, many of them former database administrators, network administrators, and programmers.
What did they all have in common? For the most part, they were all in their 30's and 40's, had been laid off from local large tech companies, and most were paid much better in their previous jobs.
My roommate has been searching for a job for 18 months in the midst of this "shortage".
I find the pattern easy to see. Experienced american high-tech workers are looking to finally get compensated for the hard work they have put in during the tech boom. And how are they rewarded? By being cut back, to be replaced by H1B visa holders and kids fresh out of college, more than willing to be burned out for low pay, to be replaced by the next batch of H1B visa holders and college grads.
If I hear "shortage of high tech workers" one more time I'll throw up. It's just not the reality of the situation.
isn't linus torvalds working for transmeta on an h1b visa?
-1: flamebait should really be -1: inciteful
I think that would work in Linus' favour in case he runs into problems a few years down the track.
You're a suburbanite.
A company may move it's factories to a foreign country to take advantage of the cheaper labor there, due to a lower standard of living. Now if we have more people in the U.S. willing to work for cheap, the factories could stay here, thus improving our economy.
I'd like to know what percentage of unemployed people in the U.S. do not have jobs because they can't find them. I'm sure that it's a very small percentage, due to the many job opportunities, however undesirable they may be.
As for overpopulation, we have enough land that is unused that could be used if there was a massive population increase.
as a TN visa worker, you have implied that you understand and accept the temporary nature of your position. as a green card applicant, you are indicating your intention to (eventually) become a u.s. citizen. it should be obvious that these become more incompatible the longer into you maintain TN status.
i haven't checked out my favourite TN-1 info site (http://www.grasmick.com/nafta) lately, but the advice on that site used to be that, if you intend to apply for a green card, you should initiate proceedings as early in your TN-1 stay as you possibly can.
ymmv.
senatorhung
http://www.versatiletroubleshooter.com
for the experienced librarian, google is merely one tool of many
The US was founded on the idea that people from all over the world and become patriated if they offered value to the country. If we deport all of these highly skilled workers, not only will we be hamstringing our Internet economy, but we will be going against some of the basic priciples of our country.
Deven Phillips, CISSP
Network Architect
Viata Online, Inc.
Wherever you go, there I am...
Okay, the subject's only half joking. But it's a good question - I'm not sure on the details of our (and by 'our', I'm referring to the Kernel developers, of which I am not a member) benevolent dictator's immigration status except that it was excruciatingly difficult to get him into the US. If he's on one of these sort of visas, we here in the states will have to bid him farewell in a few years.
Something tells me that neither Transmeta, nor Linus himself, will be pleased at this. I can imagine the sudden rash of letters to congressmen this might provoke. And it'd work, too, because the slashdotters have managed to get all sorts of things done by writing to their congresspeople, right?
Right?
Okay, plan B: Someone put Linus on Freenet -- and get 2600 to link to him, while we're at it!
-Denor
"America" is the land mass that extends from Tierra del Fuego in the south to Alaska and Nunavut in the North. By the morphological regularity of the association of the meanings of base forms to derivative forms, "American", as a gentillicium, means "from America", that is, somebody from the aforementioned landmass.
"United States" is the name of our country. By morphological derivation, the gentillicium for us is "unitedstatesian", which I abbreviate to USian.
In language, actual usage by the majority of speakers of the language trumps all else in determining what words mean. In American English (and possibly other English dialects), by usage, "America" means the United States, and "American" thus means a resident of the United States. If you want to refer to the landmasses in American English, you should use "South America" and "North America". If you want to refer to the landmasses together, you can simply use the conjunction "and".
Eladio, reign in your righteous indignation.
You say:
This would still be a problem if the person spoke English natively, and no other language. The fact that you single out foreigners is more than enough evidence of racism.
In response to:
That includes foreigners as well as white "surfer dudes" that insist on using bullshit jargon when they talk.
It would seem that you didn't even finish reading his post before you went on with your accusations of racism. You only dilute the cause of anti-racism by crying wolf.
While I am going to miss some people, they were obviously aware of the terms of their stay. You're in a foreign country under limited conditions, you'd be an idiot not to try to find out more about these conditions.
Why all the fuss?
I suppose it's easy for me to rant because I stand no chance of being sent back to a country that very well might be terrible, but I will stand by it. Please inform me otherwise if there's something I'm not understanding.
So the question becomes, what can we do to help maintain and improve our position in a world which is increasingly hostile towards us?
Perhaps instead of trying to improve our position (is it really in danger?) we could try to address some reasons why the rest of the world is increasingly hostile towards the US. In The Political Economy of Terrorism, Kendall Clark's response to the perceived threat of terrorism and the recent National Commission on Terrorism report, Clark writes:
"In fact, the solution to terrorism is elegantly simple, though certainly practically impossible to implement without sustained and intense social struggle. The only realistic way to reduce the terrorist threat is to remake American foreign policy according to just and humane principles. Terrorism against the U.S. -- which is already exceptionally unusual -- would be all but imperceptible if American foreign policy were just and humane. But there's the rub: foreign policy cannot be either just or humane as long as U.S. corporations and elites, through their agents in government, will do anything to maintain the U.S. Empire. In other words, if you want to reduce terrorism globally, dismantle the American Empire. The burden of Empire is terrorism. For as long as U.S. corporations and elites fight to maintain their global Empire, there will be people around the world -- largely, if history is any guide, though not exclusively, people of color -- who object, often violently, to being made to pay the price and bear the burdens of that Empire."
-- Adam
mexicans applying for a TN-1 visa must fit into a much more restricted list of professional occupations.
for the experienced librarian, google is merely one tool of many
I have always wondered what was the idea behind those temporary work cards. I mean, if the person is skilled in a domain that your country badly needs, why would you not want to try to keep that person for as long as possible?
;)
It should be the opposite: immigrants who have specific in-demand skills should have benefits to encourage them to work in your country, not disadvantages over an unskilled worker.
Oh, wait, you US dudes have this weird thing called National Security, which is probably best protected by not keeping "strangers" in your country for too long
"I remember Y1K, every abacus had to get another bead"
So, yes, in principle, people who lie on their application should lose their citizenship. If the INS was perfect at determining this fact, there would be no problem with letting them bring charges like that until the end of time. But the INS is anything but perfect, and they are subject to political pressures.
By restricting the ability of the INS to bring charges indefinitely, potential abuses by the INS and the executive branch are limited. I think that if the INS hasn't discovered lying on an application for 10 years (the old statute of limitations), the presumption should be in favor of the applicant, just like it is in many other areas of law.
But clearly, your simplistic view has resonated with Congress. Apparently, limitations of government powers are a good idea for natural born citizens, but naturalized citizens don't quite deserve the same treatment.
This is absurd. We should be raising the number of H1B Visas. How is America supposed to compete in the 'Global Economy' with countries with billions of citizens, if we don't steal their best and brightest?
signature smigmature
- James
The real issue, is, skilled or not, workers deserve their rights. The continued imbalance of wages of workers versus wages of executives is astounding. Under the guise of 'democracy' we've seen an increase in corporate capitalism affecting people all over the world. With this global economy, and so-called 'free market,' the people who actually _do_ the work get pushed lower and lower on the rewards heap. Investors make more money than the employees of a company. This is insane. Many foreign workers are hit hardest by this, by not only receiving the lowest wages, but then being asked to leave the country after they help build the infrastructure. The same thing happened in post-WW2 Germany, when Germans imported Turkish (and other) men and then five years later expected them to leave, and to not bring their families into the country. This is insane. One day the workers will organize, and will not be satiated by WWF, MLB, and nudie bars. Or maybe not.
----
As someone currently working on an H1-B, I'm puzzled that people think workers on H1-B are somehow slave labour, or that they're taking jobs from the local population by accepting lower wages.
As it was explained to me, part of the process of getting an H1-B involves submitting the details of the post to be filled by the foreign worker to the state authorities. They tell the employer the going rate for that position and the employer is required to pay at that level. I don't believe that they can legally undercut that wage and pay an immigrant worker significantly less than the going rate for that job.
Of course, this assumes that the employer is honest and isn't out to recruit himself cheap labour, but then if exploitation is commonplace, the problem is with the exploitative companies, not the H1-B system or the immigrant workers.
If you just gave them green cards, they'd not have to leave after a fixed interval and they'd be able to get a market rate instead of a sub-market rate. This would eliminate the incentive to import "coolies" to code in the US. It's better for everyone except the companies trying to hold wages down (which means it probably doesn't have a chance in hell of coming about).
--
Build a man a fire, and he's warm for a day.
Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once... the bitch.
i totally agree that there are people exploiting H workers. like i said in another post, any system can be abused.
however if you open the market to all IT workers worldwide, the sheer numbers of people who come will drive down wages in the US across the board. you won't have a ship to jump to because every company in the US will be forced to lower wages to compensate for the fact that their competitors are paying half what they do. you really don't think IT salaries are as high as they are because companies feel that's what people "deserve" to be paid, do you?
companies would love to pay IT workers less then they do. what keeps salaries high is that demand is much higher than supply. triple the supply, demand dwindles and companies start cutting wages.
...and bound to satisfy nobody.
The obvious reason why this discussion is going in circles is that your opponents are using a definition of "communication skills" that is more or less like the following: "ability to communicate with the particular people that live around you". [...] This isn't a very good definition of communications skills, since it means that they change as you travel
This very last bit, of course, means that I am right, and my interlocutors wrong. Yet you couldn't bring yourself to say denounce them. This says a lot about you and your morals.
it's nonetheless not prejudiced on the basis of language ("racist", as you put it).
I've said it multiple times in this thread, yet you happily disregard it: race, language and culture are tightly correlated.
I am not interested in your Grand Father. Well I dont give a damn whether he won a Purple heart in the war. As far as I am concerned, Hitler was not defeated by Americans, he was defeated by the Russians. And your Grand Father was born in Germany and he decided to take arms against your own country men ? Well, He decided to take a stand and make his ground on what he thought was right, regardless of what the rest of the country believed. Well, as for you, I pity you, you never deserve to be his grand child. You deserve to rant like an idiot.
I feel bad for people who are made to leave after 6 years. They made what you see around you, they made a difference. They toiled hard, they slogged their butts for every dollar they earned. They leave this country as a better place, and they deserve some respect. All they demand is some respect, the green card process to be sped up, nothing else. I havent filed for a Green Card, I dont believe US would remain the main industry focus five years down the line, once Europe picks up.
It doesnt make sense for your Congress to cry that theres a shortage and not realise the brain drain happening at the same time. They are taking in 100,000 new people every year by letting 45,000 experienced people walk out of here. That doesnt make sense. And I believe the shortage is hyped, to keep the tech wages lower.
Rapid Nirvana
The last two visa'ed tech workers I've worked with (one from Enzed, one from Australia (not at the same time)), both told me the same thing: They want to work here (SF Bay area) for a few years, because after that, they can go wherever they want in the world as a hot commodity.
Everyone here things we're deporting people to abject poverty and war zones, but these people have huge stars on their resumes that will let them get top jobs wherever they go. That's exactly the reason most people I know on visas came in the first place.
Kevin Fox
Kevin Fox
The same side of this same coin has rendered some older information workers unemployable: they have sufficient breadth of experience and seniority that makes them too expensive to hire. Or retrain.
We need to make sure that imported labor does not leave our citizens/green card holders out in the cold by making sure that the H1-Bs are paid a competitive and fair salary.
there are 3 kinds of people:
* those who can count
there are 3 kinds of people:
* those who can count
* those who can't
Not to be a dick or anything, but maybe I could get a job now. But really, is there really a shortage of qualified workers? There is about 5 or 6 people other than me, I know doing database programming and can't find a job within 100 miles of home. We may not have degrees yet but I can tell you that we are more than qualified.
AK
The discussion is about workers who don't speak English natively, and USians who get pissed about this. I have done nothing but assume that the topic of the discussion is the topic of discussion, which, of course, is an a priori analytic statement. If the discussion had been started with a statement like "I don't like people who can't communicate well", with no mention of what language they speak natively, that would be one thing; still, your ad hominem, "you didn't quote this bit" attacks are especially viscious since anybody than read exactly what you wrote right here. (Ad hominem attacks involve disqualifying a party in the discussion in the eyes of third parties, and the fact that the third parties have trivial access to information that falsifies the attack makes it a really bad attack. Since I know all this, why would I make such a mistake? Not that my ethics allow me to make such attacks. BTW, I'd advice you not to argue logic with me.)
in an English-speaking industry in an English-speaking country, an inability to speak English is indicative of a lack of communication skills. Yes, I realize that the PC crowd will jump on this and call it racist, but it's not. It's the truth.
Again, it's only "the truth" if you redefine "communication" as "speaking English to your insatiable standards".
Do you normally resort to such tactics, or do you reserve them for situations when you have been so thoroughly raked through the coals of simple logic that you have no other choice?
"The federal government is presently working with Congress to approve legislation increasing the number of H1B workers that can come to the U.S.--while simultaneously sending currently-employed workers home."
Ok... again, am I the only one that can't make sense out of that reasoning. If we already have workers here, who are already trained, know what they are doing and have proven their worth... why not let them stay??? Countries aren't sports teams who can just trade players at their every whim. These are people... most with careers and families.
What kind of crack is our government smoking??? Why must common sense be so scarce?
``We are the people our parents warned us about.''
This is a case of the American government doing what they do best, screw things up. Yes, illegal immigrants living on welfare is bad. No, visa holders who give needed skills, and help to add to the country are not bad. It is very simple, where the problem is, and it is not here. If the people have a good job, are comfortable, let them stay.
(Had to state the obvious, flame away)
-- the computer doesn't want any beer, no matter how much you think it does. NEVER, EVER feed your computer beer.
... how about hiring an "American" for the job! Replacing American workers with "indentured servants" who, for the most part, have no bargaining power, thus emasculating the capitalist motto of "free markets", put a downward spiral on wages and billing rates that a talented programmer can receive ...
Why are many of our best and brightest students in the U.S. opting for medical school or law school over a tech field? Well, one concern is the rate of compensation ... I have nothing against the importing of talented professionals - if they are given the same "rights" as me to switch jobs that would be O.K. ... but the current H1-B situation is unacceptable ...
As for the notion of a "shortage of programmers", I urge everyone to read Debunking the myth of a desperate labor shortage - and I can witness, first hand, the disposal of American programmers - many veteran programmers I have worked with have recently opted for (a) early retirement, (b) accepting a job at lower rate of pay or (c) choosing a different career line ... as they have been "replaced" for those of the H1-B visa variety ... Sure, if you are talented, and confident of your abilities, you will always find work - the issue is at what price - when the labor market is artificially hampered by a not so free labor supply ...
Perform this simple five-minute experiment:
Just call any firm which hires programmers-a large firm, a small one, new, old, any location-and talk to the HR Department. Ask them if it is true that they reject the vast majority of their programming applicants without even an interview. After they confirm this, ask them why they do this, and they will say that the vast majority of the applicants don't have some new software skill set the employer wants, even though the applicants have years of programming experience
Even the highly pro-business Wall Street Journal, in an article (January 8, 1998) which had claimed that H-1Bs do not adversely affect job opportunities for American programmers, stated that American firms recruit abroad because ``recruiting foreign talent is cheaper than hiring Americans,'' quoting an American recruiter of foreign programmers as saying that he pays them $20,000 to $25,000 less than Americans with the same skills.
Since people who cannot find programming work leave the field, unemployment statistics for programmers are meaningless. Twenty years after graduation from college, only 19% of computer science majors are still employed as programmers.
AZspot
This is just another excuse to bring more people to the already overly crowded U.S. And these people prevent me, who is American-born and has years of computer experience, from getting a job out of college (I'm sure there are statutes that when someone comes over on this particular visa they have to be given an IT job). I say send them back.
- I don't care if they globalize against free speech. All my best free thoughts are done in my head.
Fuck off and take your crap to someone who cares.
What has this to do with H1B? About as much as every other thread you posted this to.
Pedophile, Black, White, Homosexual, Hetrosexual, whatever...people like you are still annoying assholes.
Then why is the standard language so different from the colloquial one?
Your argument is completely fallacious. Despite the fact that in every spoken English variety known people say sentences which end in prepositions, and use double negatives, still the standard forbids this.
And in the case of double negatives, the standard claims that these sentences mean the opposite of what actual usage shows they mean. Why doesn't "actual usage by the majority of speakers of the language", as you put it, trump this here?
The fact is that what words mean is a far more complicated thing than what you make it to be. It is an issue of power, and of representation of the world in all of its complexity; in this case, the relevant dimension is the US and its relation to the rest of America. As a friend of mine put it, when I discussed this with him: "Using 'American' to mean all of us would mean that I would have a word to jointly name all of us [people from North America, South America, and the Caribbean]. But why would I think of all of us as having anything in common?"
Of course, the last statement is terribly misguided and racist, and I immediately set him right.
I am not a big fan of the H1B program, but to just kick them out after they have given six years of their lives to help support our economy smacks of facism. These people are hard-working, smart (that's why they got the visa in the first place) and a great contribution to our society. I realize a visa is intended to be a temporary thing, but I see no reason to deport the good people we have a bring in a crop of new recruits. It just doesn't make sense to fire your workforce and start from scratch.
.sigless
Enigma
Enigma
There is actually a serious question in that though. In my experience, recruiters don't tend to take the statement "well, I'm sort of a whatever language you happen to need kind of guy" very well. Even suggestion that you are really good at, say, optimization and performance fixes, is a difficult thing for some recruiter types to grasp.
Also, in my experience, people who can talk about such things are few and far between. That statement intentionally cuts across both nationality and experience. Well, I guess that they tend to come in clumps, but the clumps are still few and far between.
Gotta send them home -- that way they cannot rise to the highest paying positions which our protectionism wants to reserve for americans.
Labor Condition Application for H1B NonImigrants
8.(a) H-1B nonimigrants will be paid at least the actual wage level paid by the employer to all other individuals with similar experience and qualifications to the specific employment in question or the prevailing wage level for the occupation in the area of employment, whichever is higher.
Signed by my employer...
Can somebody recommend me a good lawyer :-)
SFMarco
Therefore, the deal has always been that immigrants come here relying on the word and good will of the US. If the US cannot fulfill the expectations created in people who came here on H1B visas, there is no legal problem, but it certainly harms the reputation of the US as being trustworthy and welcoming to foreigners.
I'm amazed at the number of people who didn't seem to read the article before commenting on it (but I probably shouldn't be).
First, the article is very clear that most H1B's expect their stay to be permanent: get an H1B, start working in the US, get a green card...
The reasons that so many of them have to leave are (which would have been very difficult for them to anticipate in 1994):
(a) The INS cannot process their green card applications fast enough.
(b) There are caps on the number of green cards that can be awarded in a given year and there are further caps on what percentage of that number can be awarded to citizens of a particular country, and, as I recall, these caps are frequently treated as a political football.
I'm also surprised that no one has commented on the detail in the article that I found most startling: The couple in the article has a child, that, as far as I can tell (and, to be fair, the article was not clear here), was born while they were living in the US. Unless there has been a Constitutional amendment after the 14th that I don't know about, that child is automatically an American citizen. I really don't see what business the INS has deporting the parents of an American citizen. I thought one of the principles of immigration law was to keep families together.
The shortage of high-tech employees is a myth. There IS a shortage of low-paid slave laborers, so the computer industry wants imported wage slaves. Companies are too cheap to pay for experienced programmers, they claim that anyone over 25 years old is obsolete, retraining time is too long, they want too much pay due to seniority, etc etc.
Send them all home and let them work in IT industries in their home countries. Force the US IT industry to start hiring its own citizens at decent wages. End graylisting, end age discrimination. If the industry doesn't get its act together, the government will come in and regulate them. And EVERYONE will just love THAT.
>> I work for a startup in Silicon Valley
Well, there is part of the problem ... what wages are being offered - especially to one of the highest "cost of living" places in the world ... why would someone want to come to California to make less real money than in any large USA metropolitan area ... supply and demand ... the idea that an "American" job should be given to a foreigner just because you want to pay less is not cool ...
AZspot
The H1B long-term temporaries also allow management to avoid hiring blacks, hispanics, and women for high-tech positions.
Take a look at the composition of most engineering shops: Tech positions full of male and some female east Indians and Orientals, along with a few male WASPs, with a bias toward the young. Maybe an older male WASP or two in an architectural or technical lead position.
It's not because of a shortage of technically competent blacks, hispanics, or women.
In the case of women in the Bay Area, for example, the experiment has been done: More than one post-operative transexual who was also a talented engineer has found that the most painful part of the operation was the amputation of about 2/5ths of the salary. Behavior that was seen as dynamic and productive as a male was seen as bitchy, uppity, and conforntational as a female. HR people actually told one that the salary being offered was in the top x% of the salaries offered by the company to "any female".
Just as older workers often find themselves training immigrants to do thier work, then are laid off, women often find themselves training far less senior and less qualified men for positions with identical job responsibilities, starting salaries tens of thousands of dollars above their own, and very slightly differet job titles (so the disparity doesn't show in the paperwork).
Companies will, for instance, hire women and minorities with several college degrees and extensive job experience for lower-paid and lower-ranking jobs, and hire young, undegreed, and inexperienced WASPS for the higher-paid and higher-ranking jobs. Degreed H1Bs can fill higher-ranking positions without the higher pay, and fill the lower-ranking slots whenever the women and/or minorities get fed up with the situation and take a hike, or push for a raise or a promotion and end up laid off.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
No, folks, I'm not one of the postoperative transexuals referred to in the post. B-)
The only "Rod" I've had slashed off (so far, at least, knock wood) is the one on my former slashdot handle.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
Why not give them a choice?
Permanent Residence or Leave. Heck, even if you forced a higher tax rate (oh, wait the H1B is higher) or internal passports (oh, wait, that's what the H1B is) or strapped them to a single job with little hope of escaping it (oh, we do that too...) they'd still rather be here. So give them some rights and let them stay.
Or maybe you're afraid they'll get your job. Work harder, stop whining, and certainly spend some time looking for real solutions.
- I settled down long enough to write this and have now collected far too much dust. Damn Dust.
What planet are you on? Even the fortune 500 richest people is flooded with programmers, something NEVER seen in earlier years
;-)
They are not just programmers; they are PROPRIETORS of the BUSINESSES they have founded.
The only exception is probably Bill Gates who secretly does Visual Basic coding in the nights
Tigers respect lions, elephants and hippos. Maggots respect no one. (C) S. Dovlatov
No, their communication skills were/are pretty good and while they had an accent it was certainly not bad and certainly not bad enough to make the phrase 'are the lights on?' that garbled.
I would also agree with the point about the Asian complaining about spelling & English skills of some Americans. It wasn't difficult to spot the foreign students that went through British-styled prep schools because they had a much better grasp of the English language than many American students (givent the state of education in some areas, that's not a difficult feat, unfortunately.).
the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
The accepted definition of 'American' is a ciziten of the United States.
When communicating with the rest of the world, you have to realize what each of your words mean to everyone else, and not impose your own definition. It does not matter how correct or incorrect you think everyone else is.
North America and South America are two distinct continents. America is a country in North America. Is that so hard to understand? Are the names confusing to you?
Hands in my pocket
Good we agree on something. Now I just have to figure out if there's any logical reason for you to bring it up.
What was someone from the USSR called? USSRian? Nope. Russian?
No, it's soviet.
I'm guessing most of the slashdot readers are fairly tolerant people with liberal outlooks. Very few people would be in favor of state run racial discrimination, or inequal treatment for men and women, or any other system that divides people up into groups. So why then am I seeing so many people saying "H1-B workers are taking our jobs"?
Yes, more immigrants means more workers means slightly lower pay. I'll tell you something else, though -- I'd be in much greater demand if, for example, the government were to deport all non-citizens, or everyone whose ancestors aren't from Europe. But I don't sit here saying "throw the foreigners out", because I'm not into asking people to do things for me at gunpoint that I can't do for myself without force.
If we accept the notion that being born with a different color skin, or being born a certain sex, or being born into a family with a certain religion shouldn't affect your legal standing with respect to what you are allowed to do, why do we still cling to the antiquated idea that where on the planet you happen to be born should?
Personally, I don't like temporary work permits like H1-B, because it's such a waste to have people set up a life here, work for a while, then go back. I'd much prefer outright open immigration -- "Come on down, you're the next contestent on the American Dream". That's part of why I vote for the only US political party that isn't xenophobic.
If you're one of those that would be displaced by more immigrants, tough. The same argument that says we shouldn't bother to build labor intensive consumer goods in the United States (comparative advantage) says that we shouldn't be scraping the bottom of the barrel for tech workers when there's millions better qualified who will work cheaper.
This isn't a real issue. The effect on the economy is not even a question: completely free immigration helps the economy, no matter what other countries do. The only issue is whether special interest groups (like "current US permanent residents") can muddy the waters and make people think that this hurts the economy. It helps the US economy, it helps the world economy, and it helps the immigrants. The only people it doesn't help are those who lose their jobs because they wanted more money than they are worth. Extremely simple.
If you don't have a comp. sci. degree you can forget about the H1 visa. But.. ..isn't computer science the field where most skilled workers are self-taught ?
Some countries don't have the bachelor (short) degree so many prefer avoiding university, therefore no H1.
I think at this point would be a good idea to look into Canada, Australia, Japan, etc.
Most countries will still require a bachelor degree or equivalent experience (which varies from country to country (10 years Japan, 12 years USA)) but I suspect no other country's immigration is as troubles as the one in USA.
If there is such a shortage, then why don't they hire people who do not have the exact/i> skills advertised. I have seen companies in 1988 ask for people with 10 years of IBM/MS-DOS programming experience.
Take a look at the programmers guild.
Fight Spammers!
I took the easy route from H1B to Green Card - I married an American[1]. However, the immigration lawyers who worked on my H1B petition said that permanent status was obtainable, so long as you started the process at the first renewal (3 years).
/.
If someone is in their 6th year of an H1B and has just started to think about permanent residency, they're SOL. The INS moves at a pace that makes continental drift look like Cerenkov radiation.
[1] There are times deportation seems like a better option, and I say this safe in the knowledge that she would never, ever, read
--
--
E_NOSIG
I see no problem with, once their visa's expiring, having them sent home. That's what they knowingly agreed to.
The IT shortage is another topic entirely and is not relevant here.
These individuals agreed to something and the comments in the posting make it sound like it's the goverments fault. It's not. Just so happens it's what they agreed to.
There's a gorilla from Manilla whose a fella that stinks of vanilla and has salmonella.
Posted this a while back, but it bears repeating, IMHO
---------
I was drawing upon experiences watching a foreign couple go through this. There existed an exit barrier for her, since the company was doing the immigration mambo for her immediate family. They were Chinese (and this was several years ago), so leaving the job (and returning to China, if I understand correctly) would have been problematic. She implied that moving companies meant rebooting the immigration process, at which they'd been working for a while.
I suggest that part of her compensation was the possibility of US citizenship, which creates noise in the job market for the domestic workforce. Let's assume she and I have identical skillsets, experience, etc. If her compensation function was:
money + benefits + US citizenship
while mine was:
money + benefits + having a life
The hiring company is at a great advantage, since moving towards US citizenship is significantly valuable to her. The company can outsource the immigration stuff to lawyers (who, BTW, aren't likely to get pushed to finish) at lowest cost possible. If they have a number of such workers, economies of scale (re: the lawyers) kicks in, and the company reaps even more benefit.
Meanwhile, she percieves that she's making $X, and will work that hard, when financially, she's getting $X - value of potential US Citizenship.
The company is thrilled, so long as her value of potential US citizenship is less than marginal lawyer's fees. Note that an incentive exists to start the process quickly, get to an advanced stage, then actually MINIMIZE the legal talent and effort put forth, both financially, and from an HR standpoint.
I think that covers it. No trickery, no ethical wrangling, but a significant advantage for the company. Of course, not everyone's from mainland China...
ceci n'est pas un sig.
Even for U.S. citizens, there is no statute of limitations for murder in most states. There is no statute of limitations for federal prosecution of capital crimes.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
According to my Concise OED, it is to "share or exchange information or ideas". No work about being "readily and clearly understood". Thus one of our dictionaries should be at error, shouldn't it? I'd claim it's yours, but, unlike you, I won't incur in a fallacious "dictionary argument".
Question: How do you share or exchange information or ideas without being "readily and clearly understood"?
I know that the current atmosphere in America is touchy-feely, but still... These people entered into the H1-B visa program knowing full well it was a temporary thing.
Now the time is up, and people are whining/complaining that it's unfair, when these people knew what the deal was, and that they couldn't count on being allowed to stay. I refuse to feel sorry for these people, who knew what they were getting into.
The MSNBC piece is full of implied's, suppose's, and the like. No where in the article does it say anything like "The Congress told these people they could stay".. Instead it says
"The time limit was left in place, but made to seem irrelevant. Applicants no longer had to prove they intended to return home, and the visa was dubbed "transitional," implying: next stop, green card."
So, if these people believed something that wasn't in writing, they needed more education into America. As anyone knows, you can't cound on anything, unless it's in writing, and sometimes not even then.
This thread just shows how despite g**ks reputedly being "tolerant" and "open-minded" people, racism is predominant.
Their fucking communication skills are better than yours, you idiot. You just don't tolerate people who don't speak your language to your intolerably high standards.
I know tons of non-native English speakers, and they could deal a lot better with you speaking their language with the skill they have at English than how you deal with them speaking English.
Do we really want to send skilled people back to places like China or other countries that are outright hostile to us? Bad idea. There was a scramble for scientists in W.W.II, I recall, and it was damn lucky we got some talent out of fleeing German and Polish scientists before it was too late. They helped us with weapons systems, code breaking, and even economics. Wassily Leontief was a Russian economist who escaped out of Berlin. His input-output tables (an application of linear algebra) made a major contribution toward maximizing our war production economy. We need talent, so write to your elected dweebs and tell them!
Here's an idea to solve the problem of deporting people who's lives are now rooted here: allow unrestricted immigration. There's no reason that the government should restrict peoples' ability to make a better life from themselves here. The same opportunity was afforded to the ancestors of almost everyone else in this country.
The problem of a lack of workers is (old theme here) partly due to the de-glorification of technical careers which has actually caused the interest of students in technical education to decrease over the past 20 years.
It ain't right, I tell ya!
There was some research done in Canada proved, to make a long story short (if you're interested I'll post the details and more info), that students, be they French-speaking Quebecois or English-speaking, stereotyped native French speaking english as shorter, poorer, and I think less kempt than english speakers. A lot of other research has confirmed these dialect biases.
Were you saying that this does not occur or that it will occur regardless of whether or not there is an official language?
jeb.
I met Mahumenunemasan in October of 1994 when he was fresh off the boat from India destined to work of a tech startup that I was currently a System Admin at. It was love at first sight, his warm brown eyes and teeth made my heart melt. We have been inseperable ever since... Until now. His Visa is up on October 12th and he will be deported back to India. If we were a "traditional" couple we could be married and he could stay, but since we decide to have Greek relations the Government says we can not receive this benifit. I am heart broken :(
If there are any other gay Hindu Oracle DBA Vegans out there that are looking for a life partner email me! I'm back on the market as of October 13th.
A few months later a co-worker in his 40s set me straight and explained that it had long been a tradition in the engineering field to fire anyone approaching 40 and replace them with new hires fresh out of school. The reason? They came out of school having learned the newest technologies and as new hires they would work for cheap. The next decade proved him to be completely right as I watched everyone who had been a new hire in 1980 get canned.
My response to this was to think "People need to be warned" and to write my first book, The Programmer's Survival Guide which was reincarnated this year in a brand new form as Computer Job Survival Guide.
The problem is that sharp young people who come into the field (like say 99% of the folks reading this board) always assume that older people who are fired or otherwise replaced must be "dead wood" and that, because they themselves are so obviously brilliant and willing to learn it will NEVER happen to them.
Well, guess what. It does and it will. The moment your salary gets up to the level where someone with cost cutting responsibility notices it, your career as a salaryman is in jeopardy. The importation of H-IB is one solution. Eventually they'll find others.
That is why it is SO important that anyone working with technology, no matter how brilliant they might think they are have a back-up plan for what they will do when they are no longer young, enthusiastic and cheap.
Ironically the H-IBs who are finding themselves being tossed out are generally those who have been here long enough to figure out the way things work here and get into a position where they can ask a market rate for their services. In doing this they lose all their appeal to those who brought them in and are of course replaced by newbies working under serf conditions.
This will only end when the people who work in the computer field realize that they have to unite, stop arguing tech nits for a moment, and act together politically to do what the large companies and other interest groups do: buy legislation.
But given the personalities of the folks attracted to our profession, I'm not holding my breath.
Someone please mod this troll down. Thanks.
Constitutionally Correct
They can come to America, work for a while making A LOT MORE than they could in their native countries plus it can't hurt your chances of becoming a citizen if they have that intention. There's a lot of whiny braindead liberals who bring up the fallacy filled family bit. They came over knowing their would only last six years. The US government didn't add this after the fact they were fully aware of it coming to the US. Its their own fault if they end up tearing their family because of it! So what are you cowards going to whine about next? The people who come from Korea/Taiwan/Estonia to the US for college and have to leave after a while?! I guess since its not nice or fair it must be wrong. After all...CNN says so.
I don't know if I'd call having the foreign workers stay a corporate manager's dream or not. As it is now the foreign workers are cheap labor because they're bound to the company that pays for them to be here. If they were allowed and encouraged to stay on their own, then the price of their services might go up which would be good for everyone. As it is now they're little more than slaves. Its kind of hard for a free man to compete with a slave for work you know.
Lee
Muslim community leaders warn of backlash from tomorrow morning's terrorist attack.
... from personal XP, I can tell you ...
It seems to me that you are the "troll" here ...
AZspot
Oh fine, but you shouldn't forget to tell these people that the german government will throw them out too, after they have done the work. Our lovely german "green card" isn't even intended to be changed to permanent stay.
Remember, its pronounced Green Card, but its spelled Slave Trade.
I'll assume that you just didn't read the multiple comments where I clearly said it doesn't before you wrote this. I'll assume you went on to read them, feel ashamed about your obvious mistake, and were about to post a retraction, but I posted this before you have time.
Gee, I'm soooo nice, ain't I?
Well, I was a foreign student. And I was a TA with a thick accent. The message above is more painful than anything. No, not about the stupid trick of teasing the TA, but the pain behind it.
Want to know what I had to go through? Well, 30% of the time, I was home sick. Everything was different. The people were mostly indifferent, sometimes hostile. Another 30% of the time, I was lonely like hell. Nobody to talk to. There were very nice people who would talk to me, but they had no clue what I was going through, and they did not understand a person from a different cultural background. The other 40%? Studying and learning like crazy to make sure I could survive in Canada.
I had no English when I came to Canada. But I was the exception. Most of us have very good English. Academic English. The language in the books, not the English you use day-in and day-out. In other words, text books? No problem. Conversations? Big problem. You know how painful that is? You think I did not want to speak fluent English? You think I did not agonize over the fact that my spoken English was not good enough? Can you imagine that every day that I had to TA, I had to psych myself up to handle a hostile class?
I know of many people resented the fact that they were resented simply because they were different. The next time you hear an anti-American or anti-Western person on TV speaking in good English with faintly American or British accent, you know how they got the resentment, and how they got the accent. Many of my friends went home right after graduation. After four years, they had enough. You know, not everybody wants to stay, if they have a decent country to go back to.
Me? I love Canada. I took the opportunity Canada gave me and ran. I have not looked back since.
Still, I remember the pain, the loneliness, the humiliation, the home-sickness. Autumn is my favourite season; but it is also the tough season for me. I came to Canada in the beginning of September, and I received the first letter from home in the middle of October. That wait was excruciating.
Sure, your friends' TA does not understand spoken English well. Maybe the guy is not qualified to be a TA. Still, I can't believe your friends are that cruel. And I can't believe the message is considered funny.
... but time and chance happeneth to them all.
these people need to go back home. If there is a shortage of workers in the US, guess what, train some people. Don't import all these foreign bastards who won't do anything but bitch about how much they hate the US.
There are plenty of people in this country who would like those jobs. Giving them to foreigners is stupid.
________
Actually I'd say its cultural bias, not racism. I work in a university where 90% of our student workers are from every damned place on this earth other than the USA. Some of them can communicate quite well. Others can't. The problem isn't that they don't understand english, they can't speak it. The TOEFL test tests WRITTEN english skills, not one'a ability to pronounce it so that native speakers of the language can understand. By now I'm used to having to ask them to repeat themselves, usually more than once. At first it was quite irritating, but I've gotten used to it.
Being from the south, I know all about racism. I grew up in an environment of intense institutionalized racism. The comments made here bear little resemblance to that.
Lee
Muslim community leaders warn of backlash from tomorrow morning's terrorist attack.
Given the high cost of living in CA/Silicon Valley, $75K is a joke to anyone with skill; I wouldn't consider a job there for less than $125K without some *major* perks.
I don't live in California, so I don't know what the market rates are. $125k seems like a lot. What kind of experience and skills would a programmer need to make that much in the Bay Area?
Do you know where I can find info about market rates for programmers for different regions in the US?
thanks..
cpeterso
<A HREF="http://ad.doubleclick.net/jump/N668.SlashDot /B20201;sz=468x60;ord=969347632969347632 ?">
<IMG SRC="http://ad.doubleclick.net/ad/N668.SlashDot/B2 0201;sz=468x60;ord=969347632969347632?" BORDER=0
WIDTH=468 HEIGHT=60 ALT="Fast. Native. XML. Click. Software AG."></A>
It seems to be somewhat random, intertwined with their own ads, but it's there. Just reload a page a few times and watch your proxy logs.
D:\ijb20\junkbstr.exe: GPC slashdot.org/x 60;ord=969347632969347632? crunch!9 347632617 crunch!7 632617 crunch!3 2677 crunch!3 2697 crunch!
D:\ijb20\junkbstr.exe: GPC ad.doubleclick.net/ad/N668.SlashDot/B20201;sz=468
D:\ijb20\junkbstr.exe: GPC images2.slashdot.org/Slashdot/pc.gif?/index.pl,96
D:\ijb20\junkbstr.exe: GPC images.slashdot.org/pagecount.gif?/index.pl,96934
D:\ijb20\junkbstr.exe: GPC images.slashdot.org/banner/swag5001en.gif?9693476
D:\ijb20\junkbstr.exe: GPC images.slashdot.org/banner/swag5004en.gif?9693476
All those session variables, too...
(Yes, I'm using NT. Shoot me.)
--
This a clean political view of the problem and I agree that this strategy is the only one to keep the U.S. in control.
The U.S. should educate it's lower social classes and give them accessible health care so that they get learn to respect something else than the guns and money.
There is a point that has never been made regarding the H-1B status and the permanent residency.
When you are under H-1B and applying for the permanent residency, you are most of the time bound to the company because the company also sponsors your permanent residency. This means that changing employer (and H-1B) also implies to re-apply for permanent residency from scratch.
This is the one main loophole in the U.S. immigration laws that should be fixed. Self sponsored permanent residency applications should be made simpler and cheaper so that the "H-1B" status would only be a temporary one, as it was meant to be. This way, salaries would not be kept artificially low by ring buffering company-bound foreign nationals. If someone doesn't fit in the U.S. system, it would probably show up after a few years, wouldn't it ?
Also, the "high tech jobs are not in short supply" doesn't hold at all. Very highly skilled people did not choose to have those jobs, it is usually a vocation. You can not compete with someone that doesn't work for the money only. Anyone that can not understand this should not try to get a tech carreer, he will end up thinking and acting like some of the zombies that polute this discussion.
SN/
[ Ego is the most addictive substance -- himself ]
You are distorting a statment from modern linguistics. You mean to say that race and language have no necessary connection. But, more often than not, there is a more tha significant correlation, which is the point you conveniently dodge.
Why doesn't your blatant bias against all things American (not "USian", shudder) count as "racist", hmm?
Now you make a presupposition not warranted by the context. Did we discuss all things USian? No? Then how the fuck you make that conclusion?
I think that the shortage is ridiculous. It is just a means of being able to lower salaries. As long as people are in demand then IT "laborers" get paid a decent wage. If there is a glut in the market then the salaries fall. I know that at my company we haven't ever had a real problem interviewing good candidates, it's just paying them what they want that our HR department balks at. Here's an article from the NYT that puts it very well. ------------ By RICHARD ROTHSTEIN New york Times 09.06.2000 To alleviate apparent shortages of computer programmers, President Clinton and Congress have agreed to raise a quota on H-1B's, the temporary visas for skilled foreigners. The annual limit will go to 200,000 next year, up from 65,000 only three years ago. The imported workers, most of whom come from India, are said to be needed because American schools do not graduate enough young people with science and math skills. Microsoft's chairman, William H. Gates, and Intel's chairman, Andrew S. Grove, told Congress in June that more visas were only a stopgap until education improved. But the crisis is a mirage. High- tech companies portray a shortage, yet it is our memories that are short: only yesterday there was a glut of science and math graduates. The computer industry took advantage of that glut by reducing wages. This discouraged youths from entering the field, creating the temporary shortages of today. Now, taking advantage of a public preconception that school failures have created the problem, industry finds a ready audience for its demands to import workers. This newspaper covered the earlier surplus extensively. In 1992, it reported that 1 in 5 college graduates had a job not requiring a college degree. A 1995 article headlined "Supply Exceeds Demand for Ph.D.'s in Many Science Fields" cited nationwide unemployment of engineers, mathematicians and scientists. "Overproduction of Ph.D. degrees," it noted, "seems to be highest in computer science." Michael S. Teitelbaum, a demographer who served as vice chairman of the Commission on Immigration Reform, said in 1996 that there was "an employer's market" for technology workers, partly because of post-cold- war downsizing in aerospace. In fields with real labor scarcity, wages rise. Yet despite accounts of dot-com entrepreneurs' becoming millionaires, trends in computer technology pay do not confirm a need to import legions of programmers. Salary offers to new college graduates in computer science averaged $39,000 in 1986 and had declined by 1994 to $33,000 (in constant dollars). The trend reversed only in the late 1990's. The West Coast median salary for experienced software engineers was $71,100 in 1999, up only 10 percent (in constant dollars) from 1990. This pay growth of about 1 percent a year suggests no labor shortage. Norman Matloff, a computer science professor at the University of California, contends that high-tech companies create artificial shortages by refusing to hire experienced programmers. Many with technology degrees no longer work in the field. By age 50, fewer than half are still in the industry. Luring them back requires higher pay. Industry spokesmen say older programmers with outdated skills would take too long to retrain. But Dr. Matloff counters by saying that when they urge more H-1B visas, lobbyists demonstrate a shortage by pointing to vacancies lasting many months. Companies could train older programmers in less time than it takes to process visas for cheaper foreign workers. Dr. Matloff says that in addition to the pay issue, the industry rejects older workers because they will not work the long hours typical at Silicon Valley companies with youthful "singles" styles. Imported labor, he argues, is only a way to avoid offering better conditions to experienced programmers. H-1B workers, in contrast, cannot demand higher pay: visas are revoked if workers leave their sponsoring companies. As for young computer workers, the labor market has recently tightened, with rising wages, because college students saw earlier wage declines and stopped majoring in math and science. In 1996, American colleges awarded 25,000 bachelor's degrees in computer science, down from 42,000 in 1985. The reason is not that students suddenly lacked preparation. On the contrary, high school course-taking in math and science, including advanced placement, had climbed. Further, math scores have risen; last year 24 percent of seniors who took the SAT scored over 600 in math. But only 6 percent planned to major in computer science, and many of these cannot get into college programs. The reason: colleges themselves have not yet adjusted to new demand. In some places, computer science courses are so oversubscribed that students must get on waiting lists as high school juniors. With a time lag between student choice of majors and later job quests, high schools and colleges cannot address short-term supply and demand shifts for particular professions. Such shortages can be erased only by raising wages to attract those with needed skills who are now working in other fields - or by importing low-paid workers. For the longer term, rising wages can guide counselors to encourage well-prepared students to major in computer science and engineering, and colleges will adjust to rising demand. But more H-1B immigrants can have a perverse effect, as their lower pay signals young people to avoid this field in the future, keeping the domestic supply artificially low.
--And sektor spoke and said unto the people. Hey, buttwipe hand me the cheezeos.
I think I have noticed a trend in the US government towards replacing standard welfare practices with training practices..i.e. the government uses the money otherwise reserved for welfare (read: free money) to train those on welfare with useful skills. Right now this gives them a good reason to implement that plan. This sort of action will practically obliterate the unemployment rate in this country as well as create a strong group of technically trained computer specialists. It all sounds very good on paper, but, the reality of it is how many of these people will actually work? I know in my home town the majority of people on welfare enjoyed being on welfare because they didn't have to work a shit job and because they usually averaged more money than those of us who busted our asses at minimum wage jobs. Granted...not all are like that...and I am sure there would be many that would jump on this opportunity...but there is no replacement for the experience some of these H1B workers possessed. Anyway..the H1B folk should be able to get awesome jobs back at their homelands with most countries becoming computerzed...so no..I don't feel bad..if the gov. does like it should there will be a larger percentage of people learning to use computers and program with them. I'm just not very fond of importing talent when the potential is readily available in our own country.
- drink, fight, and fuck..thats all that really matters
I worked with this guy from China during the summer...and he had very poor English. Several times after meetings I'd have to go through what was said a couple of times (using both languages) and spent about as much time with him as I did in the original meeting.
It worked for me -- we were able to communicate.
My other co-workers? I don't think he was able communicate with them that much at all -- and it hurt the team as a whole.
My conclusion --
1. It's cool if you're from a different country
2. You should really be able to communicate effectively in English IF that's the language of your workplace. At least enough to fulfill your duties. We had Indian and Vietnamese co-workers too -- they had no problem with communication. Even though some had thick accents, thoughts were able to be shared just fine.
The problem is, not everybody is like this...
Please calm down a bit with the automatic race war trigger -- the real answer is not at simple as you seem to believe.
willis/
there is no thing
what else could you want?
Here Here!! :)
I agree totally. I work with enough of these towlheaded vegitarians to make my stomach turn. Yes, they are talented people, but NO, they do not deserve a 6 digit salary, and yes, they SHOULD speak english because I can't understand a fucking word they say half the time. That makes MY productivity look pale becuase I spend all my time trying to translate that lovely code they wrote into something an American end user can use. Dialog boxes in Swahili are not useful to American end users
They knew the consequences - no lost tears here. You'd think the America government can come up with more nationalistic ways to reduce the "shortage" - like giveing tax breaks to tech workers, not the the companies that hire them...
My officemate was born and raised 15 years in Germany but has been living in this country the last 15 years (went to high school, college here). He married an American citizen and boy lemme tell you I never hear the end of his woes. First of all, marrying an American citizen doesn't make you one, it makes you *eligible* to be one. He's been *eligible* for over 5 years now, the INS still hasn't granted him citizenship. Every 4 or so months he has another run-in with INS, be it green card, some mix-up, or some random federal new law that affects him. He pays more taxes being married and a resident alien, too. So the morale of the story is that even though it looks all cool in the movies when some fine chick marries some American dude and instantly becomes a citizen and everything is hunky-dory, but in reality becoming a citizen is a LONG drawn out process that in the end annoys even your co-workers.
.anonymouscoward.
Groan. ;>
"And please don't tell me that this was only possible because H1's get paid less either (many people assert this incorrectly.)"
Washting Post, Septmeber 12th 2000:
"Several university studies have shown that the H-1Bs tend to earn less than their U.S. citizen/permanent resident counterparts, with the gap being 20 percent or worse. The law requiring that H-1Bs be paid "prevailing wage" is riddled with loopholes."
The full text can be found here.
My .02,
My .02,
zencode
iactivist.org/jason
Look, it's this easy. If you can't speak the language well, you can't communicate well. I don't care if you're white and can't speak english well, or from a different country. If I'm your employer, and you can't speak my language well enough to COMMUNICATE an idea, your communication skills suck. It's that simple. I'm sick of everyone covering for their inadequacies by claiming others are racist.
"God is REAL
Really, people. They knew when they came here that they had 6 years. There's no reason to feel sorry for them - they chose to work here knowing they'd have to leave eventually. I'm sorry, but if we allow people to stay just because they've been here so long, we're setting a very bad precedent, and like it or not, we have to have strong immigration laws or risk the country being torn apart from within. This should be a non-issue - let them re-apply or something if they want to come back, but send em home for now.
I suspect we are both aware that we both were aware of that.
If I asked you what the inhabitants of Mars or our Moon are called, there are answers to those questions ("martian" and "lunatic", respectively). Despite the fact that there are no known inhabitants of those questions.
Yet we know that there once was an USSR, and its inhabitants were called "soviets". An former inhabitant of the USSR, thus, is called an "ex-soviet".
Duh.
Err, typo. Damnit.
This certainly is a misguided and bigoted response. You talk of lowering taxes by sending these workers to their home countries, I would wager that H1B workers have a higher salary than the average, paying more taxes, therefore the tax burden would actually rise, not fall. These people don't "deserve help and respect beacuse [they] are a minority", they deserve simple prudence on what the impact to society and induviduals may be. Judging from the hatred and ignorance of your post, I think I would much rather have H1B visa holders working with me than be forced to work with you.
.sigless
Enigma
Enigma
You've obviously never been to North Dakota.
--
--
E_NOSIG
Foremostly consider Canada. They have a very geek friendly immigration programme (you don't even have to have a job arragned to apply) and the processing times are getting better (6 to 9 months for most IT people).
Avoid Europe like a plague! I mean it. I spent seven years in Britain fighting the home office (with the help of my employer) to keep me in the country on the neverending stream of work permit extensions. Because I don't want to return to my home country for social rather than economic reasons (economically my fatherland is v. prosperous) it was a tear-jerking moment when the Canadian landing papers dropped through the letterbox. This one country actually WANTS ME to become a resident and later a citizen. Call me sentimental but to me this means a lot more than a pile of stock options from some phoney Silicon Valley dotcom. I don't care if US workers get 15% more dosh for their work. I don't care whether Canada will be as properous in ten years as it is now (who knows if the US will be anyway). All I care is that they are the the only state apart from Oz and New Zealand with civilised immigration laws that aren't hostile to those who want to settle.
Choose Japan or ANY EU country and you're back in the US H1B style hell! All things added I recon the Canadian PR is a far better deal for me. Don't trust the EU politicians whinging about IT skills shortage. The shortage may be severe but they won't grant you the permanent stay in any of their states regardless. Don't believe in hollow promises. Just like myself you'll be granted endless extensions of uncertainty.
Wish you luck. Find out more about the Canadian PR visas at http://www.cic.gc.ca and the misc.immigration.canada newsgroup where i post sometimes.
H1B workers - highly educated skilled technology workers. Their contributions - fill real hi-tech jobs,start new biz(no. of indian and chineese people who start new biz in Calif are growing, providing local jobs + helping the economy.) They pay taxes, social security. why are these H1B workers here? cause clinton likes foreigners. nope. because every country can produce only x% of skilled workers(intelligent).. the demand for these skilled(intelligent) workers is far far greater than x% in US. what happens when these skilled experienced guys are sent back? US companies will slowly but surely get most of their work done offshore. which means less jobs here in US. why there is hatred of foreigners filling hi-tech jobs and not other jobs? no one complains when america invites sports atheletes from cuba etc. to give a boost to baseball.. Not every american can be sammy sosa. u have to import to be the best country..at the same time, if u are like Mark Mcgwire, u wouldnt be complaining of losing jobs. I am an indian H1B holder for the record.. Attitude of some H1B workers i disagree with: Stop whining.. u knew the temporary status of H1B at the time of arrival here.. if u bought a house and had 10 kids without getting a green card..u are a moron. Every country has right to decide whom to allow to stay. My solution: For every H1B worker asked by corporations in US, the companies in US should be forced to train 2 americans for same skill. This way, the locals are not ignored, the current job demand is met. Only those immigrants who cant survive(due to political,socio economic reasons) going back to their home country should be given green cards..
It's interesting how anti-growth advocates never worry that there won't be enough video stores or pizza parlors or gas stations or used car lots to support new growth. It's only the government sector that seems unable to dynamically respond to changes in market conditions. So the obvious solution is to privatize government services to whatever degree we can. If we got most of our services from privately built toll roads and voucher or tuition-funded schools and subscription-based security patrols, this issue would mostly go away.
I play Nerd-Folk!
Yeah, right. How silly of our founding fathers to have neglected to specify what opinions we were and weren't allowed to hold...by law.
"Those who have never entered upon scientific pursuits know not a tithe of the poetry by which they are surrounded."
;-)
(I'm sure someone will correct my bugs.. just like at work!)
int Bits(char b)
{
int c = 0;
int i;
for (i = 0; i < sizeof(b); ++i)
{
int mask = 1 << i;
if ((b & mask)) ++c;
}
ASSERT(c >= 0 && c <= sizeof(b));
return c;
}
cpeterso
Posted by polar_bear:
What a happy life you must lead believing that.
I have seen people brought here by the truckload, not because of their experience or expertise, but just brains to be sold to someone to make 45 dollars per hour for the employer and to be paid measly 45-55k per year.
Measly? OK, H1-B workers are underpaid, nobody's arguing with that. But 45-55k isn't "measly". You can live quite comfortably on that much just about anywhere in the US, and only slightly less comfortably in San Francisco or Manhattan.
I guess the current state of the IT field is just spoiling everyone. When the next recession/depression comes the high-tech companies are going to be hit pretty hard; 45k won't seem so bad then.
--
Question: How do you share or exchange information or ideas without being "readily and clearly understood"?
By making an effort. Duh.
Very good. Move to the head of the class. Now, who makes the effort? And who decides how much effort is too much?
Think about this one.
Imagine that you are the boss. How much effort are you willing to expend on basic communication?
Yes, all humans can learn to communicate with each other. But, what is the cost of the communciation?
From a purely practical point of view, at some point, this cost becomes prohibitively high.
What do you do?
u made me cry. may the good Lord forgive you.
int Bits(char b)
{
const int size = 8 * sizeof(b);
int c = 0;
int i;
for (i = 0; i < size; ++i)
{
int mask = 1 << i;
if ((b & mask)) ++c;
}
ASSERT(c >= 0 && c <= size);
return c;
}
cpeterso
I've heard that India has really good technical education and that the people coming out of there are at the top of their fields.
There was an interesting article at Salon.com about the heavy competition they have over there.
When the project was winding down, he told me why he did that: He was felt that the project didn't offer him a chance to demonstrate ability commersurate with a H1B-related designation called "exceptionally qualified resident alien" . (which was true, the project was already mapped out and his little part was just simple coding). After the project's completion, he explained to me privately, that his outrageous shenagans were his attempt to get relocated to another project that offered him a significant challenge where (if he did good) would qualify him for that. He had been here four out of six years, and didn't think he'd get the green card before his time was up, so he was aiming for these other immigration statuses.
He didn't have the luxury of jumping to another job like Americans do, but he hoped to make it to another project by manufacturing these 'personnel problems'.
This doesn't excuse his actions, but certainly does explain them! As more H1B's are forced to go home, there will be more and more problems like with this. Not every alien will go berserk, of course, but tensions overall will increase.
I just wish corporations would start treating American staffers better - there's only a shortage of programmers who will tolerate their BULL! That's why _I_ work at home (among other reasons).
OK. I'm European, and I wouldn't mind getting an H1B at all. I'll read the terms, including the one that says that the govt. can change the terms at will, and I'll agree with them.
And have a great time in the US and make more money than I would make back home.
And isn't there someting like applying for permanent status after you've been in the US for a while? Could someone enlighten me?
Ivo
<grub> Reading
No, they get bitchy when a person stumbles and stutters through the language, unable to create a clear sentence for their lives. I've dealt with all sorts of people who can't communicate well in english, and sorry, this doesn't work if you work in an english speaking shop. There's nothing racist about it, if YOU can't communicate well enough to be understood withyour employer, it is YOUR problem, no on else's. Stop bitching. I don't care what color you are, if you can't keep up with what's being said, go somewhere whre it doesn't matter. Don't bide behind claims of racism.
"God is REAL
...the experienced talent trained at the heart of the IT revolution will go to other countries and compete against the US, while the US carries on importing fresh and inexperienced graduates. Perhaps. Personally I think somebody with 6 yrs experience after being a "keen" graduate is of more use than fresh "keen" graduate. I know, I was a "keen" graduate 4 yrs ago, and I still feel like I'm learning at an incredible pace.
As for the Indian guy in the MSNBC article... he will have a hard few years in Canada (moving to any new culture away from friends and family is that way), but I suspect/hope that he will come to like the place as much as I have. I'm a Brit on a visitor visa in Canada waiting for an H1. I've already used 3 yrs of H1, and I don't intend to apply for a green card during the next stint. In three years time or less I'll be able to move back to Canada and still work quite happily for an American company for American wages if I feel like it (there are already plenty of companies willing to let people work remotely, like my last employer.)
I highly recommend you come to someplace like San Francisco which has many neighborhoods where English is the minority.
I've met quite a few people from Bangalore and other parts of India who have better grasp of the English language than most people I meet when visiting rural areas of America. They may speak with an accent, they may have misspeaks sometimes, but their general grasp of the nuances of the English Language and its formative literary history is much better than the average graduate of the average U.S. high school.
While I'm reading all these comments about "oh, the poor H1-B workers are mistreated", I'm reminded of all the american manufacturing workers who speak out so loudly against the "third world sweatshops" asking everyone to boycott their competitors.
At least you could be honest and admit that the reason you want the H1-B workers to get better benefits (or, better yet, not be let in at all), is so that you have a better job market.
Oh, oh, me please! I want to sell my soul to the government for a few perks. Please! I'll even pretend I don't notice when you screw me over in some other way next year.
An important thing to remember is that these people often come from poor, impoverished countries that could use their skills to make some improvement in their societies. Problem is for various reasons, once they come to the US, they dont want to go back. I live in a college town and see many students who come to the US on a student visa, and then have to be dragged kicking and screaming back to their country once they graduate. I notice it especially with female students, who once they experience a society in which women hold a much higher stature than in their home country, dont ever want to go back. So whats to do? Go with whats best for the person, and let them stay, or go with whats best for their country, and send them back and hope they can help their country out of economic woes, and enact some social change? Its not an easy decision, and one I wouldn't want to make.
"My head hurts, My feet stink, and I dont love Jesus." -Jimmy Buffett
I doubt whether this posting would be read by anyone at all, since the amount of posts before me are sheer huge, but anyway I decide to make my point since I believe these are the facts. I currently hold an H1-B and work for a EBusiness Solutions firm(previously a Staff augmentation firm - also known as a Body shopper :)).
:) . I dont think its wrong, but it goes to show that we are just not capable to think alound and make a decision on our own. The irony is I own a Honda myself).
I have been given an opportunity to work here and I am thankful for it. And I do my job to the best of my abilities. I have seen and heard and experienced a lot of wrong committed H1-B holders in this country and the saddest part is that these wrongs are mostly committed by people from the same community, most of the times Indians. I am yet to hear an American milking his employees by not giving him a fair salary, but I could be wrong. But what I have seen and experienced is the following. I have seen people brought here by the truckload, not because of their experience or expertise, but just brains to be sold to someone to make 45 dollars per hour for the employer and to be paid measly 45-55k per year.
I am proud to belong to the indian community, and I must say that 70% of the H1-B holders who come to US are qualified academically or make up for it in terms of their expertise or experience. However, no matter how funny it may sound, I have also heard that people whom havent even touched a keyboard were also brought here in the pretext of being a software engg and made to work on making systems Y2K compliant. I have seen people getting threatened by their employers and being made to work more than 12 hours per day for no over time. Well I have seen cases where in which the employer sweet talks their employees in to doing over time for their own cause without the employees getting benefited.
I dont believe the people who have the guts to speak up, or to start looking for something on their own have to fear anything. A majority of the people here on H1-B are still consultants and not permanent employees of any firms. They need to wake up and realise that they have been kept under a dark cloud of uncertainty and fear, and decide to stand their ground. I dont think its hard to get a permanent job here for anyone with decent communication skills and relevant expertise. I have around 3 to 3.5 years of experience and I have been offered jobs that range from 110k to 130k per annum and I dont believe thats a bad salary to start with. Its just that these people have been kept so long in the dark that they are not willing or able to start looking something on their own. Most of them tend to follow the others (reason why we see so many Hondas and Toyotas being driven by Indians
We need to stand up and demand fair rights and better pay rate. And as mentioned in a post prior to this, once they start paying their employees better, all this shortage would go away.
Rapid Nirvana
I can see the way this is going to go.
In one corner - those who feel the US is the haven of the huddled masses and anyone who disagrees is a bigot
In the other corner - those who feel US corporations are using these people as slave labor to force American developers to take pay cuts or into unemployment.
While you are both wrong, and right consider this before getting all rammed up. The people losing their visas did not qualify for green cards. Had they qualified they would not have to go. (I do not think Linus is going to have a problem in this area) This means the value they were suppose to bring, or the activities they were suppose to complete did not meet the standards.
You do not get a free pass because you are in technology nor should you. You are neither entitled too nor should you be prevented from meeting the same restrictions and conditions that everyone else seeking permanent status in this country must. Is it fair, just because you were not born in the US.? Life is not fair, stop whining and get over it.
You may now proceed with the next 564 responses.
I don't think it takes a degree or whatever certification you might have to be able to say "Damn, I really can't understand this person". In fact, since language is a "living thing" the best judges of comprehensiblity (sp) ARE the average citizens (perhaps averaged over groups or something to remove bad samples).
If you don't mind me asking, why are you so all over this topic? I mean, was someone you know once in this situation or something? Seems like it's hitting a mighty sorespot...
willis/
there is no thing
what else could you want?
"America" is the land mass that extends from Tierra del Fuego in the south to Alaska and Nunavut in the North. By the morphological regularity of the association of the meanings of base forms to derivative forms, "American", as a gentillicium, means "from America", that is, somebody from the aforementioned landmass.
"United States" is the name of our country. By morphological derivation, the gentillicium for us is "unitedstatesian", which I abbreviate to USian.
This is more than clear enough.
What needs to happen here is that the FBI needs to be contacted; told about the article. They can then subpoena Slashdot for the name of the poster ( only account holders can post Anon - as I understand it ), and then the FBI can take care o sick perverts.
It's best for Slashdot however, if they only release the individual's name under court order. Otherwise it'd set a bad precedent for the future.
There's a gorilla from Manilla whose a fella that stinks of vanilla and has salmonella.
C'mon now. Anyone can see the obvious social differences between Germany circa 1920-1930 and USA circa NOW!.
We in modern America are much more adept than Germans have ever been at handling outsiders. Germany is an extremely homogenous society and doesn't bode well for strangers of any kind. I was a soldier there for over a year and although I thought it was a beautiful and interesting place, I can definately see where the peoples minds were during the WWI and WWII era just from the way they act now. Also we don't have any sign of a recession or depression on the horizon.
"I apologize for any ramblings I have made, unless they made sense, in that case 'I told you so!'"
My hypothesis regarding monkeys and typewritters revolves around the concept of broken typewritters and smeared feces on
Wrong mate. They aren't immigrants. They are going to be work permit holders (which is the UK equivalent of the H1B). It's the same shite in a different country. Been there done that. This is why I'm permanently and inadvertantly headed for Canada!
I don't know anything about it given that I've never worked there. The people that I know there haven't said anything about it other than 'Oh, that's with Company/Division X, and I'm in Division Y, so you know as much as I do.'
the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
Good for you. I don't know the specific dollar amount, just that I was told that they are much less expensive salary-wise. Most web pages on the subject also more or less say the same thing. Given that changing jobs is supposedly much more difficult and the companies hold that over the person's head, that sounds pretty shady to me.
People didn't want to go there because the place gets winter? Where the hell is that and who are the idiots that are turning it away? I could care less about walking on the beach at any time of the year. Actually, I prefer cold winters (-15 or -20F or less). At least in those areas, people don't freak out over a few snowflakes and mob the stores to buy groceries.
the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
Why the heck would they have programmers working at the hub? That doesn't make a damn bit of sense.
the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
Could this be why Free Software is so much better than proprietary stuff? More experienced programmers are running around loose and the ones with only a degree (pretty much) wind up writing the proprietary code?
Seriously, why don't some programmers who managed to save a good chunk of cash while they were working get together and set up a company that makes a policy of hiring more experienced programmers?
-RickHunter
I've worked as a C++ programmer for three years and I have a BS and an MS in Computer Science.
Does that even matter to employers these days?
cpeterso
The work mainly being done in asian countries is ..).If you are sent for some temporary time
.And BTW, if these people come back they will probably work in one of the offshore centres of an American company...the problem of US losing talent does not exist...I think H1B 's will cease to be a problem in coming years when companies find it even better(& cheaper ) to outsource their work from other countries..may be we will have a discussion on /. regd that then ;-)
offshore development for some client (60-70 % its
in US
then you get paid around 2.5-3K $ per month. So H1B definitely pays more for the same work
For some enlightening reading, check out Debunking the Myth of a Desperate Software Labor Shortage, UCDavis' Dr. Matloff's testimony to the House Judiciary Committee.
Some salient quotes,
and...
The article is long, and just about every screenful is just as enlightening. It's not just about H1B's, but about age discrimination (at age 35!), race targetting, and common HR tactics to weed out the overexperienced.
Sobering.
[
int CountBitsInByte()
{
return 8;
}
Because most Americans don't want to live in California
For your own safety, I advise you not to let the moderators know where you keep your stash since that is some extremely high quality crack you are smoking.
Most Americans would kill to live in California, especially San Diego where I live.
This explains why our real estate prices are going through the roof. The whole area is packed full of foreigners (like from Arizona, the midwest etc.).
Look around your state and see how many people there are from California and I will find twice as many here from wherever you are.
---CONFLICT!!---
Let's see. Educated, employed, good salary, pays taxes....
Sounds like it's exactly the sort of foreigner the U.S. doesn't want.
It's geographic racism. Nothing more. No one objects to the Canadian or British programmers coming over.
I'm a programmer. Used to work near San Francisco (aaah, California) on a TN-1 visa (I'm a canadian citizen).
Renewed the visa in November at the border (yes, I drove my '68 Mustang all the way up to the Canadian border, because I couldn't do it at the Mexican one). No problems.
Found a new job in January. Wanted to renew again. This time I (got paid) flew to Vancouver for the renewal.
Which was refused.
I was also refused entry.
Thus I stood on the streets of Vancouver (which I didn't know at all) with just the clothes on my back. All my stuff - computer, apartment, books, car, entire life - in California, with no way of accessing it.
Happy end: I found have a very nice job in Munich. The Germans are less xenophobic about dearly-needed high-tech workers, and I'm not leaving here again.
Also lost to the US: my brother (an american) who wanted to come as well. My friend Fefe (german), who would have come, too. Both said that they're not prepared to work in an environment run by xenophobic fools, and I concur.
Bye.
---
"What, I need a *reason* for everything?" -- Calvin
Free PC version of ChipWits at http://www.breueronline.de/klaus/chipwits/
again, Eladio, why are you trolling so much today? (see my other comment)
willis/
there is no thing
what else could you want?
To be american is to accept the fact that our
government is run by a few socially/economically elite companies. To represent these companies we get a different executive every 4-8 years depending on his performance (how well he represents his employers, ie the corporate PACS that put him in office) and how much he beat his enemies (his PAC's competitors) down.
And we lie to ourselves that a dollar isn't equal to a vote.. I guess it's true now.. it's more like a billon dollaris is equal to a vote..
"And how can this be? For he is the
Rich
After 6 years are up, head back home.
I mean really, would anyone want to stay in a country that, while claiming itself the "melting pot", holds you in disdain and sneers down at you because you:
If it were I that was working in the US on an H1B, I'd be happy to turn tail and RUN after my time was up based on those items alone, not to mention other contributing factors (i.e. crime, loose gun laws, non-socialized health care etc. etc. etc. )
"The answers are always inside the problem, not outside"- Marshall McLuhan
When CEOs go around complaining that they are "desparate" to find good programmers, what they mean is they are desparate to find cheap programmers who are willing to work 80 to 90 hours a week for a below-industry-average salary. That's like me going around saying, "I have been looking all over for a brand-new Ferrari for under $25,000 -- I'm desparate to find one!"
Of course, I'm not saying anything new. People who actually know what's going on in the computer industry have been saying this for years.
Free Hans!
yeah, I feel sorry for these people, but as someone already pointed out, they took the risks of not being able to stay past 6 years. In addition to which, all that money they should have been saving will take them a looonnngggg way in a 3rd world country where it is a damn sight cheaper to live. And the practical education they got here, too, will help them.
as for hiring domestic workers, I wish someone would hire me, give me a chance. I have a BS in CS but only make $35k/yr doing tech support. I would take less $$ for a job where I can learn a hell of a lot more (like programming). I've been doing tech support for the last 5 years, been a sys admin, have a load of practical experience, am currently back in school brushing up on programming so I can get ahead, but I still lack that opportunity.....a programming job where I can learn something. I can pick up things fast since my job requires it and it is something I have skill at, but, again, no opportunity. I don't want to listen to "What's a protocol?" for the rest of my life.
you tell me? what am I supposed to do?
I'm good with numbers -
Please don't get me wrong and think this is anti-foreigner or even anti-immigration. If there had been a promise of citizenship eligibility at the beginning that would be completely different. It's just a matter of playing by the rules when the rules are pretty fair. If I were a guest worker in, let's say Germany (Please? Anyone need a C/PHP developer anywhere near Munich?), I'd go home when the time was up and be grateful for the hospitality.
And from another point of view, it would be crummy of the US to continue to drain the best talent out of third world countries that can use all the bright people they can get.
--
Proud member of the Weirdo-American community.
H1-B's are all forced back.
A few hundred Indians look around and say "this sucks".
Venture capital becomes the fund du decade on the resulting startups.
New Delhi becomes Silicon Valley, 2004.
Already a nuclear power, India becomes an economic one as well.
Pakistan is not amused.
Can you say "Israel II: Electric Boogaloo"? I knew that you could.
My .02,
My .02,
zencode
iactivist.org/jason
There is no shortage of tech workers. There simply isn't a surplus. Companies with positions to fill don't want to pay any more than they have to for qualified people. Tech workers are in high demand, meaning wages will be high. But if you can bring someone in from somewhere else who is equally as qualified, and pay him less, well wages just went down. Personally I think we should encourage intelligent educated people to emigrate to the US. We should accept them with open arms. Why? Because they will be the basis of our future, both economic and politcal. In the future human know how will be the most precious resource. If most of the people with above average minds live here in the US, what would that do for our position in world affairs? When our people can literally out-think people from other countries what will that do for our ability to compete with those countries? America is a nation of emigrants and children of emigrants. Right now we are the dominant nation on this earth. But that can change. Once upon a time the British Empire covered 3/4 of the world. Today Britian is simply another country in europe. So the question becomes, what can we do to help maintain and improve our position in a world which is increasingly hostile towards us? I'd say draining our future competitor's most precious resource is one damned good way to do it. Lee
Muslim community leaders warn of backlash from tomorrow morning's terrorist attack.
Where did you come from my friend ? Where do you belong ? Would you say US ? If so, ask your Father how he came here, or your grandfather ? Your ancestors couldnt have been living here all the time unless they were plucking fruits with chimpanzees, before the first immigrants reached the shore. I assume it was the former. You belong to them
If you have something worthwhile to say, say it, dont rant like an uncouth goat.
Rapid Nirvana
Some of the best coders I know are on H1B visas from India and Pakistan. I think it is great that they work in the US, and we should encourage more of them to be citizens. People complain that they are going to get their jobs... Live with it! We are in a global marketplace. If they don't live in the US, IBM will just farm the night shift to them and take your job anyway. I would much rather have them generate beucoup tax dollars for the U.S. than for some other country.
bash-2.04$
bash-2.04$yes "Don't you hate dialup connections?"| write USERNAME
I guess I should have been more specific: Chinese & a few Koreans. The TA in question was Chinese.
There's nothing racist about being mad that you have to meet a certain requirement only to see that another group of people who are supposed to meet the same requirement, obviously don't. Nor do I believe it is racist to expect people that are going to school or working in a country to learn the predominant language of that country. If I were to live in Germany, Brazil, or Japan. I would work my ass off to become fluent in the languages of those countries. It's in my best interest to do so and of course out of respect for the people living there. The TAs in question could never really help anyone because they couldn't really understand the students and the students couldn't understand them. It really pissed me off when people start crying racism over stupid things that aren't.
So do Filipinos speak better English than the English too? =) Seriously, I'm not surprised that Filipinos are fluent in English. The country was a US possession for quite a long time and the home to major US military bases.
the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
As one of those "foreign bastards" you mention, I am somewhat offended by your language, and at the same time amazed at the effectiveness of your reality-distortion field. Yes, there are plenty of people who would like those jobs, but who are apparently also so underqualified that the US needs to import in excess of one hundred thousand "foreign bastards" each year to stop the American high tech economy from coming to a grinding halt.
Nonsense. One of the requirements for getting an H1-B visa is that the compensation for the job must be representative. I am an H1-B worker in Silicon Valley. I make $78000 a year, plus stock options. While there are certainly people who make more, I believe $78000 is above average. A company cannot get "cheap labor" like this, or the visa would be declined. The only drawback for the employee is that the visa somewhat ties you to the company, so you cannot simply quit and get a new job.
It wasn't language or accent (he did have an accent, but that wasn't the issue). His ability to communicate was lacking. He'd show the steps of a mathematical problem all out of order. Shows how to do a step in the middle, then says but first you do this, etc. He was just going all over the place. Just couldn't communicate clearly.
Universities should make sure their profs and TAs can communicate the concepts clearly to their students. That is the main issue.
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
Yes, but this is the *defacto* situation.
Besides, we need to run this country to *our* benefit---for the majority. To do otherwise is foolish. And the majority of us sell our labor/products/services. But the rich ones, who BY labor, of course, have always manipulated tthe majority in order to make themsleves richer.
That's OK, I suppose. They play a brainwashing/manipulation/propanda game. Not that long ago, they had young men marching off to war, and they sold the ammo, etc.
That game is over, now. But there is always a new game for those with money. THis time it is different. But we the majority should play the game to our benefit.
eat shiat and bark at the moon
Well said, I'm glad there Indians out there who realize the situation they're in. I'm not Indian myself, but I have worked with half a dozen or so over the last year. Before I get into this discussion, please know this isn't a flame on Indians in anyway, and that I know I couldn't work half as well as the ones I've worked with if I was working in their country.
The largest problem I find is communication. It's a serious problem, I've lead a team of two Indian programmers and one of them would say yes to everything I said, but never really understand it. He may be very intelligent, but he had a hard time conveying that. I've only been working in the field for 3 years, but it seems to me that communication skills are as important as programming ability, though my work usually involves constant communication with clients and users of what I'm developing, I know not all programming jobs are like this.
Another issue is that many Indians don't speak up and sometimes very meek. This may be a cultural issue or a result of communication skills. This is not necessarily a 'fault', but it is a definite disadvantage in the American workplace, where nobody else is going to speak up for you, because dispite the friendly atomosphere your employer may try to create, all it really is a facade so that they can get the most work out of you for the least amount of money. As I've said, this isn't a fault, I myself am meek at times, but I have to constantly remind myself of these things, that I should not do charity work in the form of unpaid overtime for a multi billion dollar company. Having to think like this is part of the 'soul selling' that people talk about when you enter the corporate world. I never thought this way until a few years after college where I found I was generating 5+ times my salary in revenue for my small company and was never offered a raise. There are some exceptions to this, and luckily for me, I've found a few employers who really are my friends, and I hope you do too.
Anonymous Coward eh!
.
In a few words. There are plenty of H1B visa holders we all identify with, as we are all "techies". But it would violate the spirit (if any) of the immigration laws. The same will actually apply to Canada btw. People with other status or requesting a green card from the limited number deliverable per year for other reasons than "I'm smart, I can code" will be left behind. This will be the doom of the administration if they are criticized by minority or human right groups, accused in fact of favoritizing geeks over political asylum seekers. This might even spark a hell of a crisis. The governement, especialy since the 80's has alway tried to keep the lowest profile on these issues and please everyone. It is in fact 10 times harder for a "clean cut German ex-BMW engineer" with all chances in the world as some people say to get a green card than an ex-viet minh member who barely reads English. "Who are we to judge?" is the question that sums it up. And based on that principle, the US immigration does not want to hear one complaint about them being racialy discriminating or reviving nazi doctrines on selection. "So I'm not a programer like your perfect society wants, I am just myself and I just seek assylum" would be yet again a terrible blow for any government that try to be as blend and neutral as the US government.
,I believe, works like that too...
In Singapour by contrast, they would have you out in no time... No high diplomas, not a huge ammount of money, and even something like a parking ticket at age 16 and you are good for the firing squad. Oh and I didn't even mentioned religious criterias, damn shame!
So OK, H1B visas holders are not given a fair treatment (heck, they are exploited). "But that's ok, as foreigners can't vote" will say any good politian, leaving things the way they are. Israel
Before everyone spouts their opinion, here are some background facts which may help you understand this better.
/. posts).
First, green cards. These are a Kafkaesque nightmare.
* An employer can sponsor a green card (permanent residency) which takes about 3-6 years. An employee may quit, but this stops his green card processing and he has to start from scratch at the next company. (In case you're wondering, most employers are eager to sponsor. Guess why...)
* If the H1B expires at the end of 6 years, the green card process can be continued overseas (Consular Processing). OTOH, if the process is at the final stage, the employee may file for an "Adjustment of Status" (AoS) and continue to work in the US (for the same employer) until he/she obtains the green card - generally 3 more years.
During this time, US law prohibits the person from leaving & re-entering the country unless he obtains INS permission after stating the cause, even for short trips. (Land of liberty!) They are literally treated as prisoners in some sense - the word the INS uses to describe a software engineer allowed to go visit his home country is advanced parole (this is a DOJ site) Violating this is extremely serious.
Some people forget this rule and visit canada for a holiday, which pretty much fucks up their weekend and much of their life.
* Green card processing time varies dramatically from state to state, sometimes by years. So a PhD in California might take longer to get it than an agricultural worker in Washington. In short, if you are planning to get one, spend some heavy research poring over tables of figures on avg. timelines.
H1Bs
-----
* H1B is a non-immigrant visa, so those who hold it are "non-immigrants" (if you can imagine that); green card folks are "applicants for immigrant status".
* An H1B takes about 3 months to obtain. You are not obliged to work for one employer, and can change.
* An employer can't "send them back". This is a HUGE misconception. Even if the company fires someone, he is legally present with a valid work permit, which normally doesn't expire until a yr or two. So long as the programmer has another company apply for a new work permit, he can continue to stay in the US (but cannot work until he gets the new visa.)
* You can start > 1 H1B visa applications. For instance, a programmer agrees to join companies X and Y, both of which apply for visas. X gets it first, and the programmers says bye to Y. This happens sometimes (see above scenario) - I know more than one person who's done it, it's a tough world - and companies can't do anything about it (can't have much sympathy for them, really).
* Big slashdot error - H1B people are NOT being deported. The article does not mention it. Deportation is a legal action taken by the INS against unlawful aliens, which is fought out in the courts. In this case, what they are describing is a case of programmers voluntarily leaving BEFORE their visa expires.
* H1B law allows an unlimited number of employers, but a max cap of 6 yrs in the US. After 6 years, the person must spend 1 yr outside the US, at which time the counter is ROLLED BACK. He can then come to the US for another 6 yrs.
* Inspite of the mass hysteria, employers can't pay anything they want - they have to legally state how much they pay and this has to be approved by the DoL (dept. of labor) BEFORE they grant it.
* H1B folks can apply for a green card at any time during their employment. From the frying pan into the fire.
* They can also apply for Canadian permanent residency while in the US. This takes about 6 months and you need not have to be in Canada for even a day. They have enough trouble keeping their own people.
* H1B law is equally ruthless to all nationalities - it takes several weeks for everyone. Equal opportunity rocks.
* One consequence of a 3 month processing time for H1B is that companies are unwilling to hire people to start so far into the future, instead of a 15 day period.
* When H1Bs took 15 days to process (they used to some yrs ago) there was little disparity between conditions for citizens and visa workers, since people had to give a 2 week notice anyway, during which the visa was processed. This whole fuckup began due to overloading of under-budgeted INS offices.
In short, immigrant programmers face enormous hurdles - inspite of having legal status, they are trapped between the govt., corporations, and a xenophobic population (read some
I've noticed a regrettable trend. Many Americans tend to take out their anger against immigration policy on their H1B co-workers or anyone who looks like one (visa status isn't exactly stamped on people's foreheads), which creates an unpleasant, racially hostile situation in many offices. Oddly enough, they tend to discard this attitude when they themselves have to go thru a bureaucratic nightmare to work in Europe or australia or Asia.
Party on.
w/m
Sorry kid. I think you got most of it wrong. There are valid reasons for the poor bastards to bitch. So let's see what is actually happening:
Most of the H1B and other slavery status visas that come to the US are nothing, but poor bastards that believe in the bullshit usually known as "american dream". It has been successfully sold by holliwood to the rest of the world for the last 95 years. They believe that they can succeed and their incredible "talent" will blossom only in the US. They believe that everything will be good at the end. Just like in an american movie (show me a one without a happy ending).
So they come and see reality which sucks for most of them. Real life does not get even close to the movies. And so they bitch. And they are right to. They have been cheated in every single of their dreams and good intentions.
P.S. As an interesting sideline the Australians have started marketing special movies oriented to the potential emigrants (Pakistani, Middle East, Indonesia, etc). They depict the actual beaties of some parts of Australia like big whites, crocodiles, poisonous spiders and other lovelies.
So maybe financing Holliwood to start making movies about American reality is the solution. There is plenty of space for that in Quins and upper Manhattan.
Baker's Law: Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it
http://www.sigsegv.cx/
Since we can't let everyone in because some day we WILL run out of space. And since America can never make everyone happy (seems that all I hear from foriegners is negative comments about the US anymore.) Since we obviously can't give everyone a green card because somewhere down the line we run out of land and our ecomony will go to crap, lets just give green cards to those with IT Jobs.
From my understanding of the situation, it's not that there is an actual shortage of US talent, it's that the US talent usually demands higher wages and businesses don't want to pay it. So they cry how there's not enough local talent and the H1B Visa program is born! So local people coming out of school with their tech degrees can't get a job, easily, in the tech field. Now they have to compete with foreign talent driving the salaries into the ground. I don't blame the foreigners, I blame the businesses that forced this situation! The foreigners are just as much a pawn in all of this as we all are!
blah blah blah....
If you can stand the wet, cold climate it's not such a bad place in which to live.
g**k is geek not gook.
They have been here for 6 years already they already have homes and families they should just be able to stay.
Using H1B visa holders as a scapegoat is dumb. Your problem with getting a job is you, not some foreigner. That H1B person is judged by the same standards as you. They won't get a job if they aren't qualified. You won't get a job if you aren't qualified. And being "trained" is nowhere near being qualified for most jobs. Training means next to nothing in the high tech field. Experience is everything. You can't find a job? Get an internship or do work at home. Don't blame your inability to get a job on someone else.
"People should get beat up for stating their beliefs" - TMBG
I may get flamed for this but I say fuck 'em. It's just another higher paying job for me.
Not to be overly cynical here, but sounds like these guys just want to get rid of the current crop of uppity-type skilled employees, in hopes of getting some more possibly naive recruits from countries that may not need them/can't keep them.
Dave
'Round the firewall,
Out the modem,
Through the router,
Down the wire,
Barclay family motto:
Aut agere aut mori.
(Either action or death.)
even though it won't be easy for those involved.
Here in the United States there are people who will simply refuse to work for minimum wage. People living below the 'poverty level' have a microwave and cable TV. Some of the contries these workers come from are not so fortunate. Working is not a luxury. Some of them are borderline third world. So what's happening?
We're sending back people who've worked for some of the most cutting edge companies in the world. They've had the opportunity to work with some of the smartest people in the world. It's been stated many times, but the Internet knows no bounds. There's no reason a startup in Silicon Valley couldn't operate out of India.
Hopefully, these people being deported (although I imagine they will experience hard times) will be able to do good things for countries that are not as fortuante as the US. They will be able to start businesses. They will be able to teach at Universities. They will be able to have a serious and fundimental effect on the infrastructure of their countries and help bring them into the 'new economy'. They will be able to raise the standard of living in thier own countries bringing the average person one step closer to what the average US citizen takes for granted.
Trolls throughout history:
Jonathan Swift
H1B Visas? No problem! Roozbeh uses his psionic powers to make many many green cards!
The company I work at seems to thrive on H1Bs, its the only way we can attract talent, and the management seems intent upon screwing them over wholesale. It usually costs a H1B applicant a couple thousand to get all the paperwork take care of by a lawyer (and 2 months of tense waiting), and the company usually has to lay out a $500 expense to cover their application. My employer is so intent to screw them they attempt to force the visa applicant to pay the $500 in addition to their other fees-most thankfully refuse to pay the fee. Even so, my employer treats them so badly that they are leaving in droves for better jobs-that tells you something when it takes them 2 months and a couple thousand dollars to change jobs.
What burns me, and drives me to shame, is that these folks come here, work their hides off in the hopes of gaining access to the american dream, are productive members of society-and then after 6 years get booted out of here. This is NOT the way to treat people who can only add to our nation and give it growth. People who, may I add, have to pay the same taxes we do.
Its an utter embarassment.
I have several good friends and have known many co-workers (note the spelling) who were over here on H1B visas. They were all 'trapped' by their H1B sponsors and were paid below-average salaries. Many of them were/are extremly talented and could have taken any spot that they desired, except that they were locked in with their H1B sponsors.
so, what did they do? they played the game, jumped thru the hoops, waited in lines and finally got their green cards. Every last one of them.
Yes, it was work--and a PITA, I helped several of them and couldn't believe all of the hoops that they had to go thru, but they now work for who they want, and command premium salaries.
So, I wonder about those who's visas are expiring? When did they start the process of applying for their green card?
---
Interested in the Colorado Lottery?
Interested in the Colorado Lottery or Powerball games?
check out http://colotto.com
There is no shortage of tech workers in this country. But there is shortage of Quality tech workers here, which is filled up by all these foreigners.
.
Sounds to me like this is something that could have been brought up, oh... about six years ago.
Look. If you come into the country on a six-year visa, you know when you get it that you're going back after six years.
When I get a one year subscription from Newsweek, I dont write them and complain after 13 months that they are now depriving me of some basic human right because one year of reading their magazine has turned it into an invaluable part of my life.
There is a generally acknowledged (or perhaps, generally alleged) shortage of programmers and other tech workers in the U.S.
Pah! So think nothing of leeching these workers away from other countries -- most of which are economically depressed to the point that they already have plenty of problems in trying to build an Internet infrastructure in order to keep up with a rapidly advancing first world.
It sounds to me like the six years of experience our H1Bs gained in the US is going to help their countries demonstrably when they go back -- which, I bet, was a big part of the original point:
The federal government is presently [trying to increase] the number of H1B workers... while simultaneously sending currently-employed workers home.
...which still supports that assertion. I mean, doesn't it make you think? Why would the government, citing a skilled labor shortage, not be lobbying for extension of the visas of existing H1Bs? Wouldn't that be a lot easier than trying to increase the current influx? It would certainly save the costs of sending the current ones back!
The point is the work visa program -- any work visa program -- is not solely for US benefit, so dont make it sound like it is. If some of them, they came here under a false hope that they would be given some sort of permanent tenure at the end of their six years, that's their own foolish fault.
--
Terrorists can attack freedom, but only Congress can destroy it.
You whole city is nothing but a big Navy base!
Uh.. no. Yes we have a Navy base (and a Marine one).. but the military (active and ex) population are only a drop in the bucket compared to the city (and especially county) as a whole.
However, as a prospective home buyer in SD right now.. I agree with the post you're replying too: RE prices are going through the roof here. A small sized 3br/2ba house with a tiny yard is at minimum $250k now. Unless you want to live well outside of town and deal with 1+hour drives in bumper to bumper traffic, and even then the prices are still above the national average.
San Diego is a nice place to live, but the quality of life is going downhill. Housing prices are insane, gas is some of the highest in the country, electricity is outrageous, traffic gets worse everyday... yet new housing developments open every single week.
- My favorite error message: xscreensaver, running on an old Sparc 5 w/ 8bit color: bsod: Couldn't allocate color Blue
The only problem with that is the fact that from the beginning, the H1-B people where never staying.
all of those immigrants that make up the US actually became citizens.
they send their money to their home countries so that when they go back they can crush our industry.
My company just opened-up its benefits to gay workers. They don't have families and can still put in 70-80 hour weeks into their forties and fifties. They also don't have kids sucking precious healthcare benefits.
Okay, this post bugged the crap outta me... Stereotyping gays as not having families and willing to work 70/80 work weeks because of this is pure B.S... There are plenty of gays that have families, financial responsibilities (whether to prior biological children, adopted or older family members) and want the same working conditions apportioned to "Straight" workers. The 70/80 hour work week is a preference - you can decide to work it or not (whether you get paid for it is another issude)... Also, we have the right to the same health care benefits - just because someone is gay does not mean they have less health care needs or rights... Maybe you should be considering how much more difficult it is for an out gay person to function in that environment from all the bigotry and misconceptions perpetuated by people like you...
just venting on this idiotic remark...
peace. JOe...
foreigners are cheap.
period.
it has nothing to do with education. it has nothing to do with how much you work.
educated americans are too expensive. If i went back to school to get a Masters, i would be unemployable.
/zard
what we really need is an international tech worker's union.
/zard
What the hell? First, I'm not at all criticizing or hating these people. Not at all. I have absolutely no issue with them being here whatsoever.
Second, I'm not American in the first place. And where my parents or grandparents came from is not relevant.
My point was one of immigration policy, and not directed at any 'race' or whatever. THe point is, a country should do everything it can to educate and get the help it needs from WITHIN before abandoning it's own people and getting help from WITHOUT.
I realize I'm starting to sound like a KKK member or something.. please uderstand I'm not talking about some kind of totalitarian idea here.. nothing like 'fuck the immigrants, bring back our country' or anything.
Just simple policy: jobs for locals before jobs for outsiders.
My point was that
Thus, the congress had to target geeky programmers -- highly paid, but no organizing skills.
IIRC, this is (at least) the second time in recent days that our lack of organisational skills has been highlighted on slashdot.
Folks, we live in an (imperfect) democracy. Stop whining and start writing to your politicians, newspapers etc etc.
if we gave them Permanent residence, then we'd have to actually pay them competitive wages and treat them like Human Beings.
The Industry(tm) doesn't want that.
/zard "undereducated and lazy" biomatrix
This does make Native American claims of eternal ownership of "tribal lands" to be a crock. If they got pushed off by another "tribe" with superior numbers or technology, it's no worse than what they did to get "their" land in the first place.
--
Build a man a fire, and he's warm for a day.
Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once... the bitch.
... does it say "shareholder" ...
AZspot
I admit, Sand Diego is a beautiful City, but San Diego is not a good example. You whole city is nothing but a big Navy base! You have a bunch of people settling there that just got out of the military. Actually, I have to agree with the original poster. Allot of people do not want to move to California. Companies (DELL, IBM, TOSHIBA, SOLECTRON) are now starting to realize that there are technical talent in the South. They also believe that since we live in the south that we are CHEAP and do not want to pay us what we are worth. I have seen 5 (DELL, IBM, TOSHIBA, SOLECTRON, FUJITSU) companies come to town and all offered less than market value. They realized this, so they hired unskilled people and are training them to do the job. There quality is poor now and they have lost the respect from the tech community. The only company that I know of in my town that is paying the market value is Fujitsu.
"Life is art...Paint your destiny"
... in other countries and export some job's and import some software and destroy the unique industry US have some competitive advantage today!
Spock, beam me up.
So they got exactly what they were told to expect -- six years, temporary resident status. End of story. My reservations at the Hilton expired last Sunday. I booked the room through Sunday-- but I had really gotten used to my accomodations. So what. I got what I paid for; I got what they promised.
The shortage you refer to is illusory. The shortage is in fact a shortage of companies willing to pay top dollar for talent. They hire these immigrants because they work for less. Look into it.
There is no reason you can't take most software projects for which you import teams of H1B workers and do them more economically as a rapid-fire series of converging incentivized contracts performed overseas.
You might need some laison H1B folks to assist in communications, but the bulk of the domestic work on most software systems should be done by broadly experienced architects who can write the acceptance tests. With the acceptance tests written, there should be _two_ independent teams hired overseas, preferably in differnt countries, to design and implement systems to pass the tests. With the money you save on salaries and other expenses, it is easy enough to afford two teams and multiple go-arounds. The way software is typically developed, admitting you will need multiple go-arounds is a healthy step in a 12 step program to free yourself of the addiction to armies of H1B slaves.
Seastead this.
>> In case you're not aware of the current situation, hot programmers can still freelance for well over $100/hour. The only people who really have to worry about foreign workers brought in on H1B visas (or any other way, including companies opening divisions in other countries) are the ones who aren't particularly skilled and are still extracting a premium salary. I don't care where they come from or what color their skin is, if someone can do a job better than an American for less money, they should get the job, even if it was my job
What bullshit ... if foreign workers were granted full rights and citizenship and thus full negotiating power, that would be one issue (which I would not be against ...) ... but to artificially "flood" the market and drum up the FUD alert of "labor shortage" is bogus ... the shortage is for cheap captive labor ... as an older programmer, I have seen many of my friends and colleagues choose other lines of work as they were displaced by H-1B Visa Indians imported ... what a flagrant violation of the law by U.S. companies ... if the public ever realizes the fraud being perpetrauted, there will be real outrage ...
And then we wonder why our best and brightest opt for medical school or law school ... wake the fuck up ... pay for programmers is a fraction of what it was 20 years ago, measured in real dollars ... programmers in the 60s made 100K+ per year ...
AZspot
What is the problem, though?
I mean, I sympathize with people.. but..
If you are granted a 'Temporary' Visa.. how does that equate to you deserving permanent status? They knew it was temporary.... and the fact that they can be denied renewal later is the REASON they are temporary.
Yes.. these people have lives and such, families, communities... but I can't help but wonder that they didn't take the 'temporary' stuff seriously.
Mythical Man-Month. By throwing out enough programmers and replacing them with inexperienced programmers unfamiliar with the projects, they essentially put the entire US high-tech industry behind by many months, even if they allow MORE new H1Bs in than they kick out.
I don't think you're personally responsible for building America... However you're ancestors may have contributed and they were most likely immigrants.
My dad, for example, came here with the clothes on his back and now, 30 years later, enjoys a much better life than he ever would have had in his native country.
The fact that he was able to multiply his net worth by a factor of 50,000 just by being in America for 20 years speaks a lot about this country. He didn't have some brilliant idea. He didn't have a scam. He worked hard. Damned hard. But he still did the sensible thing, and his wife all 4 of his kids are much better off because of it. I could not imagine what my life would be like if my dad never came here. This is a completely different world, which most people can never appreciate.
Now, I'm sure people have also been thoroughly fucked in coming here. That sucks. I'm sorry. But I'm not going to accept that America is definitively bad for immigrants. I'm a direct result of America being good for immigrants. Sure, there's lots of room for improvement. We jail way too many people. We are a nation largely of racist idiots, but I could think of much worse places to be.
YMMV - I'm an American and proud of it.
I think not renewing these temporary visas is a smart move by the American government - they've obviously learned the lesson Germany has to teach.
/. community prefer a country with even more racial/class strife than is present today? That is the lesson Germany is coming to grips with today, and is a nasty little situation we're better off not having to face.
After WWII, Germany was, to say the least, short of men. Funny how losing wars will do that to you. Anyway, Germany offered people from other countries limited-term visas to come to Germany and work. The idea is they could earn good wages rebuilding the country and then go home. These temporary workers enabled the "Economic Miracle", or Wirtschaftswuender, that catapulted Germany into being the most powerful economy in Europe.
Now, however, these people (especially from Turkey) didn't leave. Parts of Germany are suffering under 50% (!!!) unemployment, and many young Germans resent the presence of these foreigners, who are essentially taking jobs from native Germans. This has fueled the neo-nazi/skinhead movements and made Germany a more unstable place.
The American goverment is playing this just right - allowing for temporary workers to keep the economy booming, but making sure that the workers stay temporary. Or would all the nice PC members of the
Isn't one of the things that this country needs
An explanation first, by all rights, I "should" be an anti-alien proponent but I am not, actually quite the opposite. And here's why and how I think a lot of this argument is based on people who are afraid of competition, don't understand what this country is actually based on and want everything for free.
As a Boy Scout I was taught from a very young age to love America, and then doubling up and being in JROTC taught me the same. I was practically raised in a para-military uniform. I even joined the National Guard while I was still in HS, matter of fact I spent my Junior-Senior summer in Basic training(That's Basic as in Hut-Two-Three-Fower, not If-Then-Else). As I hadn't actually experienced any of the world at that point, I was an extreme Xenophobe and believed that America should close it's borders and put guns on top of them. (BTW I already started my love of Computers in the BSA when I earned my Computing merit badge around 1988 or thereabouts :-) and helped fix Sergeants computers in my AIT immediately after HS graduation.)
After wandering around for a year after HS I went Active Duty. THIS CHANGED EVERYTHING!!! After spending a short tour in Bosnia I realized, #1 America rocks. #2 War sucks.
America is absolutely the best country in the world, even for all of it's problems. 99.9% of the people never have to worry about getting shot at, being starved, being raped by government order, being forced to work for the government. Can you imagine what it is like to wake up and wonder who is in charge today, and if they like the group you are in enough to let you live through the day? Many of these former Soviet countries are DIRT POOR and the only chance they ever will have to be something other than poor is to come to America! Most of THOSE WHO COME HERE ON THESE VISA'S ARE NOT FREE RIDERS LOOKING TO SCAM THE AMERICAN PUBLIC!!! If you were in their shoes where would you want to be? And if you are from one of these countries, you should realize I am not knocking your country. America IS the land of opportunity, that's why you're here. But, the only way we can truly grow as a nation and as a people is by continuing to welcome those who not only want to be with us, but who want to make our country prosper and share their knowledge with us.
I know many H1B's who are currently being manipulated by the system. People who came to America, with HIGH level degrees, who have studied for years with the dream of coming to America and becoming one of us and adding to our rich heritage. But they are stuck not knowing where they will be tomorrow, they are not much better off then they were in their home country. If it wasn't for these "foreigners" coming to America, I would still be working for a trucking company. I would never have ever tried to become a Programmer. I always thought it was for people who were super intelligent and gifted. IF these people who came from America were out to rape the American public do you think that they would spend the time sitting down with some Average Joe and teaching him how to program and think logically? NO, they would have been happy to see me toil at something I hated and never would have lifted a finger to intervene. All of this with no promise of ANYTHING in return.
I witness the suffering of my friends everyday. I know how hard they have worked and how frustrated they are with their hands tied. Why don't we believe and follow our own cherished words? Why don't we continue the tradition of a proud people with open hearts who know that the way to victory is not to become afraid and close-minded, but to welcome the thoughts and ideas of a varied people.
The point I am trying to make it that if you are afraid of losing your jobs to people who are more qualified, dedicated and harder working than yourselves. Then maybe you should re-evaluate your own dedication? Freedom doesn't mean that everything is handed to you, it only means you have to chance to succeed or fail, Freedom has nothing to do with the outcome except that you get to chose it. And that the whole idea of allowing people to come to America to only work for 6 years, then having to return to their country reeks of indentured servitude and turning people into mercenaries. These people should be given their due citizenship's because they have proven they want and can make America a better place.
Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe FREE!
free?http://www.ugeek.com/news/geeknews/jan2000/ge e2000320000988.htm
Freedom - it's the most expensive idea ever known I apologize for any ramblings I have made, unless they make sense, in that case. I told you so!
My hypothesis regarding monkeys and typewritters revolves around the concept of broken typewritters and smeared feces on
For many job categories, a bachelor's degree in a relevant field isn't enough for a Canadian to receive a TN-1 allowing them to work in the US. (The degree must be in a relevant field too - i.e. that English degree won't do you much good if you're a programmer!) For example, a biologist needs a graduate degree in a biological science (a BSc alone doesn't cut it).
Also, the job offer letter has to be very specific. It must list your salary, the details of the position and why you are qualified to have it. It also shouldn't indicate that you will be there any longer than a year.
The application process can be very smooth, or very difficult. (One of my coworkers was refused his visa at the airport, missed his flight, etc.) It really seems to depend on the person you are dealing with at the border.
YS.
"Arrr! The laws of science be a harsh mistress." -- Bender
Yes - there's a demand for tech workers in the US that can't be supplied by Americans. So you allow immigration to increase the supply.
After all, the USA was built on immigration, no?
I was actually feeing sorry for those people, thinking of how unfair it must be for them to be moving after years of living there. Until I read what the poor victim was saying...
This year alone, about 40,000 people like Sathya who arrived on this special visa and assumed they could settle in America forever will find themselves heading back home, or to Canada, or someplace else they'd rather not be.
Are you saying Canada is the same as China or India or ex communist European countries? well fuck you too, buddy! From many points of view Canada is better than the states. This article makes it sound like it's the worst place to be.
But for the Sathyas, it's too late to lobby. They've already decided to go to Canada, wait it out, decide what to do next. Mostly Sanjay worries about Shraya, his 4-year-old daughter: How will they find a good pediatrician?
I know... I mean, up here in the woods, with the bears and the beavers, good doctors are so hard to find... Thank god for those indian medicine men!
"All that weighs heavy," he says. "I just want to give her a nice, clean house. Now I'll be taking her to a 30- or 40-story condo, where she'll have to take the elevator to get to the park."
I know! I mean, if you're lucky to even FIND a condo! most likely you'll live in a tree, with no central heat or running water! At least the park will only be a jump away. Just watch out for the wild animals and the poisonous Black Widows...
She echoes him back, padding down the steps in her pigtails and sherbet-striped pants and pointing to one of the boxes: "Daddy, we're going to Canada." Then she mumbles something else.
I know, sweetie... such a tragedy... But don't worry, we'll be nice. We'll eat you first.
Too bad it takes *years* for the green card paperwork to go through.
... and probably which INS agent you get.)
Advice I saw on one website - if you are applying for a green card while on a TN-1, make sure you renew the TN-1 visa at the border rather than by mail. The form that is mailed asks you if you've made an application to live permanently in the US. At the border, that isn't a question they usually ask. (Mind you, it also depends *which* border you go to
Disclaimer: I am a Canadian in the US (as a biologist, not a computer professional category), and have no intention at this time of applying for a green card.
YS
"Arrr! The laws of science be a harsh mistress." -- Bender
They wouldn't be able to afford to buy anything made in America. That's for sure! Thus there would be nobody to sell anything to and so nobody to compete with.
Besides, if all the good IT workers were centered in one part of the world, wouldn't it eventually create a narrow, in-bred culture? Ideas could get one-sided, boring, and centered on what the USA thinks it wants instead of what it discovers it can use and adapt from other places.
To use a similar example, if other contries didn't have their own TV production, half of the top rating U.S. shows wouldn't exist. (Which isn't to say they're worth watching.)
===
... I have been informed that my job is going to be out-"tasked" to h-1b visa workers ... it was not totally unexpected as many other departments here in the company that i work for have had the same action occur ...
I haven't been totally left out in the cold ... yet? ... I will be kept on to train the newcomers on the system that I am deemed the Subject Matter Expert ... I will perform the assigned tasks with the same zeal and efficiency that I performed all of my present programming tasks - whatever is required of me - while I still draw a paycheck ... even though it will be a much tougher task than resolving a S0C7 ABEND at 3a.m.
So much for a "programmer shortage" - it is all about cheap labor ... even the case presented by my management makes for a "compelling" argument (at least in terms of dollars and cents, definitely not "sense" ...) ...
so the firm I work for is going to employ one of the forementioned "body shops" for cut-rate programmers of the h-1b visa variety (i don't need to tell you which "shop" ... some of you can already venture to guess correctly ...)
Consequently, if anybody is in need of an competent, skilled, and extremely experienced programmer, veteran of many "wars", here are my qualifications ...
Yes, I am soon to join the ranks of programmers displaced by less costly h-1b visa programmers ... much to the chagrin of my (1) immediate management , (2) business partners, and most importantly (3) my immediate family ... so those who want to tell me whatever drivel they want to cough up ... fine ... if you need a competent, experienced programmer who is eager to learn any new skill/platform/language, feel free to extend a job offer ... additional skills include crafting a /. post while under the influence of several cold frothy glasses of Budweiser ... otherwise, please understand my biting as someone who is angry over those who wish to take the bread out of his family's mouthe-s ....
AZspot
You see employers think as soon as you get your training your off to work somewhere else.
Then they see their money going down the drain.
Or you have been around long enough to set up a Network to basically run itself, but management is in your way to make the improvements.
But with H1B, they can hold on to an employee for 6 years at slightly below average hiring cost, so training becomes an acceptable risk.
The new employee will be so happy to work for you he will kiss your butt, and make the coffee.
(Abusive work practices in the US look like True freedom to people from other countries)
Then after 6 years when the wage cost comes close to maxing out, you get another one that lowers your costs with an acceptable turn around rate.
In theory this looks very good on paper.
But Wait, you get to also work these people from 60 to 80 hours a week as needed.
Also a lot of people in their 20's and early 30's will also work these long hours.
But their is a shortage of people willing to work these hours or have 5 years experience in your network set up.
Break down of actual pay based on 50K a year.
50k
961.53 / 40 = 24.03825 rounded down
40 hr work week = 24.03 per Hr
(Same as some construction workers)
961.53 / 60 = 16.0255 rounded down
60 Hr Work week = 16.02 per Hr.
(Same as some Semi & unskilled labor)
961.53 / 80 = 12.0191125 rounded down
80 Hr work week = 12.01 per Hr
(About what a Pizza delivery guy makes)
Now what do you think about that.
First if your company thinks you should be willing to work more then 50 hours a week; you must ask yourself why?
Any Admin with talent should be able after 6 Months (lots of overtime) to fully automate the network to run itself to the point that you could work from home.
Yes that right, remote Admin.
You should have all the redundancies in place, and a secure dial up feature installed.
You should have extra back hardware as well.
This does not have to cost much, but most companies are more concerned with controlling employees.
In fact the number one problem with corporate America is the need to Micromanage everything, even when they don't have the resources to do it correctly.
Now don't even get me started with the HR issues.
TeTalon
You are either a part of the problem, or a part of the solution, which are you.
The choice and the responsibility are both yours.
TeTalon
You are either a part of the problem, or a part of the solution, which are you.
TeTalon
You are either a part of the problem, or a part of the solution, which are you.
It seems like Indians are getting knocked pretty hard in this thread. Unfortunately, there's good reason for it. My experience with H1B people is that they were all Indians with decent - but not outstanding - skill sets, who came on board and wrote mediocre code. They all lived like hermits - at best in a bare efficiency, at worst four to a one-bedroom apartment - and sent all their money home to their families. And the code they produced was terrible, because they didn't have to care about it - it's not like they were going to be there in a couple of years maintaining the stuff.
The problem I have with this situation is that it takes jobs away from domestic programmers and exploits the financial situation the Indians face at home. Over there, the salary they make in the US is a fortune; over here, the salary they get is far less than what their employers would have to pay an American programmer. The corp wins, and in a way the Indians win, but the rest of us get shafted -- and in the final analysis we're exporting money and getting bad code in return. Not a great deal.
Loosen immigration restrictions and let more people come in, people who will stay here and work here and contribute to our economy, people who actually have a stake in what they do. But the current situation is really no different than exporting software work abroad, with all the consequences that brings. I say, good riddance to H1B.
TeTalon
You are either a part of the problem, or a part of the solution, which are you.
TeTalon
You are either a part of the problem, or a part of the solution, which are you.
IIRC German was actually a fair way from becoming the official language of the US (although it was discussed). I don't remember the details - I read about it in one of Bill Brysons books - does anyone have any better info?
Paul
To prove their point, one of them would periodically ask the lab TA if the lights were on. The TA would usually respond with a different answer
:)
/. crowd revels in amusement from clever remarks about the Hitchhiker's guide and the babelfish. Very wise and understanding about the tapestry of human culture and thought - all that makes us what we are, and how we live together. But when it comes to the real world, and people traveling and working in different countries and speaking with a different accent, there is so much veiled hostility and underlying scorn towards "them".
This doesn't prove anything. Maybe this happened because *their* communication skills were just as bad.
It is largely a matter of accent. Once an American complained to me about the English not being able to speak properly. The irony of this was a bit too much for me. I've also had Asians complain about Americans not being able to spell or master rudimentary English.
Once I saw an American tourist ask an Australian at an airport to repeat himself because she couldn't understand him. Naturally, you'd think - thick Aussie accent. Imagine if you'd seen her do the same to a Chinese person - would your opinion of his communication skills differ a lot from that of the Australian? Think about it...
There's no reason why an American or European accent is the "correct" or default way to pronounce English.
I find it strange how the
w/m
And please, explain me, what do you think, I owe you? "Opportunity" to work for you? I was paid for my hard work, company made good profit, government got taxes from both, and if anyone still owes something it's definitely not me. Oh, BTW, I am one of those people who are waiting for their immigration papers after H1B expired, and I will get a green card even if you don't like it.
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
A naturalized US citizen is still subject to US laws, so if their past crimes are serious enough not to have statutes of limitations under US law, they can still be punished under US laws.
People shouldn't lose any sleep over it (a lot worse things can happen to someone in the US justice system than getting denaturalized). But I still think that the removal of a statute of limitations on denaturalization by Congress was indicative of a negative attitude towards immigrants.
the german government currently has issued a green-card offensive for foreign high-tech workers. I am sure we'll welcome those who had been thrown out.
The one's loss is the others gain i guess
> people never have to worry about getting shot at
America's crazy gun laws makes the states one of the places in the world where it's most likely to get shot in.
> being starved, being raped by government order,
How much does an unemployed without insurance have left for housing and food in the states?
> being forced to work for the government.
Already forgotten WW 2 and the vietnam war? Lots of people were drafted into service.
I'm over here not as an H1B, but have friends who are and colleagues who are. There are many sides to this tale. Some people get it lucky and end up with nice jobs, etc. Others manage to obtain thier green cards, and thus don'r have to face deportation. However, these people quite often are treated much like slave labor. Thier visa doesn't allow them to move to another company (two guesses as to why companies prefer them sometimes to American workers? - second guess doesn't count) Usually they are paid less than thier counterparts (our findings show 10 - 20%). The H1B visa IS NOT RENEWABLE... once your 6 years is up... there's nothing you can do to renew it (not even leave the country for a vacation). There is a shortage of computer people, so the need is real. However getting cheaper (often far more skilled) labor that is forced into corporate loyalty means that companies are NOT going to support Americans over imported skills. There is two sides to every tale. The only ones who really score in this are the Companies. The Americans can benefit from the skills and diversity and the people comming over can often stand a chance at getting out of a less than desirable situation back home.
As a Canadian working on a H1B visa I am aware of the requirements for both TN and H1B. The TN visa requires that an offer letter from the U.S. employer be shown along with a proof that the applicant has a degree that is relevant to the job. It can be renewed indefinitely. The H1B is issued for an initial 3 year period and can be renewed once a year for 3 more years for a total of six years. The person has to leave for an unstated period before he/she can re-enter on a new H1B. An H1B visa can be transferred to different employer for a $500 fee. All the 'indentured servant' stuff in the other threads is crap.
I dunno if a 'lunatic' would be used for the denizens of the moon, however the word certainly does derive from the common 'luna-' root.
Parade ye not your ignorqnce.
Elgon
"They could not believe how any of the Asian grad students could have passed the required verbal & written English tests required to get a student visa (according to them)."
why?
Asians like the the Filipinos (philippines)
are bilingual (filipino and english). we can even speak english better than americans...
and the European bastards cannot.
thats fucking why. stop being racist ang grab a clue or two.