1. Dried perchlorate salts are, themselves, shock sensitive and can explode. 2. The perchlorate ion participates in very facile acid/base chemistry, and can/will convert to the acid form very easily. I have seen trained chemists screw up and get injured using perchlorate *salts.* Never assume that chemicals stay in the condition you buy them; for example, ether readily forms explosive peroxides over time.
Like most people who only learn enough chemistry to make explosives, you don't have a sufficient understanding of the materials you're using to keep yourself - and others - safe. Kind of like running a meth lab that way, where idiots are always blowing themselves up because they don't fully understand the hazards of the chemicals they're using.
I say that decent regulations always consider quantity and chemical type. As long as people only sell small quantities of chemicals that give you no chance of blowing up your neighbor's house, no problem. But as you mention, there were some seriously dangerous materials (ie, perchlorate) mentioned. I don't want to live next to anyone who has more than a few grams of that stuff.
I guess that's my point - people get pissed when you talk about gov. regs (see the other 15 flames). But unless one is prepared to live in a shack in the middle of Montana, I want to have some assurance that my neighbors aren't going to poison me or blow me up. That's all.
Chemists selling gram-quantities of relatively safe stuff? Sure. I still think it should be accompanied with an MSDS. As long as they're not materials and quantities for which serious ventilation (better than an open window) should be needed.
You mentioned too much caution with chemistry sets, but talk about unsafe - I found my childhood chemistry set (commercially bought) a while back, and it had a cyanide salt in it (iron cyanide, I believe) Believe that? Mix with acid and take a dirt nap. When I was 8, I didn't know what any of that crap was. I'm lucky I didn't decide to "supplement" the kit with a little white vinegar. So I think there's a happy medium between hte (not so) good old days and too much paranoia.
If you got your money in at the same time as preferred investors, I'm definitely asking how. Were you' *part* of the IPO, or did you buy shares immediately *after* the IPO? There's quite a difference there. Because Red Hat's IPO was definitely not public.
Let me guess: you are a younger chemist trained within the past decade?
Yep. I assume you're saying that I've been indoctrinated somehow. Probably not true; I fought with Safety Dept. all the time. But at the same time, I have enough sense not to perform reactions with dangerous, toxic chemicals in a poorly ventilated garage. And if you're implying that the older chemist is more cavalier, you may be right. And I've seen many of them die young from exposure to chemicals, too. If one is to spend 50 years as a chemist, one needs to be careful to make sure that mistakes aren't fatal.
I started exploring my interest in chemistry at home, with home chemistry kits (which are lame nowadays by comparison) and then with ordinary household chemicals that can do interesting things. Even after having a Ph.D. for several years, I explored the shelves at home for interesting experiments. Is these things crimes in your opinion?
Depends on the chemicals and the experiment.
Newsflash: those caustic or otherwise dangerous chemicals are ALREADY in most homes. What's wrong with experimentation, assuming SOME level of proper guidance?
Nothing, assuming proper training and safety precautions. The key is the word "proper" that you use. And some chemicals are too dangerous for home use under any circumstances.
Finally, I will add that I have noticed that many chemistry programs, college level now, have surplanted the teaching of proper techniques in the name of "safety." I wrote a report for a private college a few years ago in which I stated:
"If our chemists are not trained in the proper handling of hazardous materials, who in our society will be?"
I'd ask what these techniques are. Yes, our safety department was frequently overzealous, but nothing was ever forbidden, they just liked extra-safe storage. When I was an undergrad, I don't believe our experiments were ever compromised due to safety. We were, in fact, trained properly with the chemicals we used. I'm not going to blindly defend whatever safety department with which you've been feuding, for all I know they are morons.
I've seen the trend toward no toxics in Gen Chem Lab, and it bugs me. There's also a similar trend in Organic Lab, of all places.
Gen Chem, I can maybe see the point. You get some serious idiots in Gen Chem. I don't think we used much anything more toxic than HNO3 in Gen Chem. But since the point is technique, not specific reactions, you shouldn't really need anything more toxic than that in Gen Chem. However, I don't know how you'd even try Orgo without anything toxic, I'll definitely agree there. But at the same time, these are still students - you don't want them exposed to, say, methylmercury in undergrad lab, do you?
Three, pressures from gov't groups, like Fire Marshalls or BATF, etc, on 'proper' storage and handling equipment (which is bunk in many cases).
We had enough chemical fires for me to see their point. First, they're risking their lives. Second, in a given lab, you need to treat each chemical as if it were the most dangerous chemical in the room, simply because firefighters and other emergency personnel can't tell the difference. That's what I finally realized - most of the safety precautions and info is in place to convince the emergency crews that they're not risking their lives trying to put out fires.
Life comes with risks, and rational adults learn to deal with and mitigate those risks.
Yes, and if you only posed a danger to yourself, I'd give you your Darwin award now in advance. But you also pose a risk to your neighbors and potentially firefighters if you screw up.
The article casts chemicals like "perchlorate" in the light of "makes bombs", which is misleading.
Yes, perchlorate can be used to make bombs, but it's also the main ingredient in a large number
of other pyrotechnic effects which *don't* go boom.
Doesn't matter. Perchlorate salts are dangerous *by themselves*, which I hope you know. When they dry, they're shock sensitive. When I was in grad school some 1st year blew up a lab that way. People were cleaning out used glassware, and smashing it to fit it in the broken glass containers. One had a coating of dried perchlorate. Took out a whole lab.
The government, and the lay public, are increasingly of the opinion that anyone who does anything
after work other than chug a Pabst and watch their 57 channels of dreck is a terrorist, or
about-to-be terrorist. Which is a sad state indeed...
That's not my point. My point is, to use dangerous chemicals, you need to have a lab that's up to code and a good bit of training. Otherwise, what you're doing is illegal anyway, without invoking the word "terrorist."
So you are saying that without a 4+ year advanced degree it is impossible for someone to understand a MSDS and comprehend the safe handling of the substances?
I didn't say a degree was neccessary, but that it was (hopefully) sufficient. Having a degree in chemistry is one way. Well trained chemical technicians would also apply.
I absolutely despise people like you. College edu-ma-cated = blazing asshole today it seems.
I guarentee that there are at least 3 non-college educated, non-chemists within the 100 mile radius of you that knows far more about chemistry that you do mister smarty pants.
Go put words in someone else's mouth, asshole. That's not what I meant, and not what I said. A CHEMIST is someone with training in CHEMISTRY, it doesn't mean a 4 yr degree necessarily.
Speaking as a former technical director and designer of chemical plant, for the sort of quantities and hazards that home experiments produce fume extraction would NOT cost tens of thousands of dollars. You can home build a garage extractor system for a few hundred dollars (and if you work on cars it is useful for extracting e.g. degreaser fumes) which has enough capacity and exhaust velocity to handle solvents.
Did you look at the list of chemicals these people are selling? It wasn't crap like acetic acid. It was things like perchlorates. Which, I might add, tend to be explosive.
...you shouldn't be using the kinds of chemicals they were selling at home anyway. *I* wouldn't use those at home. It's not safe, as you will not have, at home, access to the proper safety equipment including proper fume hoods which would cost you at least tens of thousands of dollars to install. If you're not a chemist, you also won't have proper training and experience to deal with accidents that can become disasters.
The submission asks whether people are afraid of science. The question should be, are people afraid to use caustic, explosive, and potentially fatal chemicals without safety procedures or training? I sure hope the answer is yes, and I would consider that a good thing.
I hope they don't come after me. I went through their signup, and stopped when I saw the price and the mininum number of shares to buy. I was willing to throw a few bucks into it, but not anywhere near what they were asking for. Stocks are a gamble, and I have my limits. This time, it looks like I made the right choice.
They can't come after you if you didn't actually follow through on the order. Deciding not to do it *beforehand* is OK - *after the fact* not so much.
On another note, to all the people who actually *did* back out of your commitments, I have two things to say:
1) at the point where they opened up the IPO to (basically) the public, you should have known the stock was a dog. Companies use access to IPOs as perks to financial institutions in return for favors, like reduced rates on loans. If they open the IPO up to regular people, run.
2) If you can't stand risk in investing, stay in the kiddie pool. Enjoy the 1.5% return on your savings account.
Do you have any *evidence* to prove that American kids are more greedy than others? Especially since they took this gimmick from Eastern European hackers? No? Then shut the fuck up you ignorant shit.
As a Caltech grad I'd love to agree with you, but I think the finance center in SF helped make Si valley what it is, and Pasadena (even LA) don't really have that.
Oh, and Gordon Moore *is* a Techer and he still didn't found Intel in Pasadena.
Instead, you have JPL.
A student of a school sitting at his computer at home has a right, the right to free speech as outlined in the First Amendment. This right does not come at the discretion of the school, but by the Constitution and is the supreme law of the land. The school can't come along and say, "Sorry son, we don't like what you're saying", as it occured during his own time off school property.
The school is saying that the Columbine mention falls outside 1st Amendment protection as it is a threat, and that they are therefore perfectly within their rights to get rid of the kid.
That said, they are somewhat undermined, as his mother pointed out, by their complete lack of action with regard to following up on this "threat" (not calling the cops, for instance).
No, it is real life. If this kid gets expelled, he's screwed.
No way. Assuming the story is as claimed - and he's being silenced by the school - him sticking to his guns and teh 1st Amendment is the kind of thing that schools eat up. I have no idea what his grades look like, but I'd say this *increases* his chances of getting into Harvard. He'll have to leave out the vulgar bits he posted, but a little creative editing never hurt anyone.
Can't remember where I read it, but I think they're planning on NOT letting local warlords into the distribution loop. How they'll get access to the countrties without paying said tribute (or getting shot) I don't know.
The tickets business is not a perfect example of capitalism in action, because the sports and concert ticket business is not a friction-free market with perfect information where buyers and sellers can interact directly without overhead costs. Scalpers and companies like Ticketmaster have preferential early access to the best seats before Joe Sixpack does, and hence can charge a premium for these. There is no way for you and I to get access to these tickets.
Yes, but since the scalpers and Ticketmaster won't go to the events, they effectively just become middlemen. In the end, the market does sort it out. I know what you mean about markets not being ideal, but I'd say the aftermarket in a very public auction ends up being about as friction-free as possible. As others have said - either you want to go to the event badly enough, or you don't.
With special microscopes, scientists and engineers involved in nanotechnologies have been able to 'see' atoms for a while. But they couldn't clock the atomic response to events which typically occur in nanoseconds.
*Femto*second laser spectroscopy has been available for some time now to investigate chemical reactions that happen much faster than nanoseconds. Got the Nobel Prize in Chemistry in 1999 for Zewail.
Not only have iPod sales dropped quarter over quarter for the first time ever, they almost dropped IN HALF. Can you say 'saturation point'?
It was also the first time they didn't introduce a new product during that respective quarter. When you pay superficial attention to simple statistics, your analysis falls flat.
And on top of that shocking result Apple warned about next quarters numbers in the last quarterly report. I guess you didn't bother to read or listen to it.
You're right. Being a Mac owner and not a brainless zealot (or an Apple shareholder), it wasn't worth my time.
And why would you think that US companies aren't going to spy on the US Government. If I wanted to spy on the US I would setup a company in the US, so I expect China would do the same thing.
Because if they did the leaders of said company would end up in a federal pound-me-in-the-ass prison. But in general, the gov. much prefers standard (American) vendors. Don't expect to get some beigebox from Bob's Computers approved anytime soon either. And if you're suggesting that Dell is really some sleeper spy effort by the Chinese...well, adjust the bandstop filter on your tinfoil hat.
Slashdot Mirror
This is the site that has 600 comments posted to a story about a 100MHz bump in Apple processors. These people get all a-twitter about anything.
Like most people who only learn enough chemistry to make explosives, you don't have a sufficient understanding of the materials you're using to keep yourself - and others - safe. Kind of like running a meth lab that way, where idiots are always blowing themselves up because they don't fully understand the hazards of the chemicals they're using.
I guess that's my point - people get pissed when you talk about gov. regs (see the other 15 flames). But unless one is prepared to live in a shack in the middle of Montana, I want to have some assurance that my neighbors aren't going to poison me or blow me up. That's all.
Chemists selling gram-quantities of relatively safe stuff? Sure. I still think it should be accompanied with an MSDS. As long as they're not materials and quantities for which serious ventilation (better than an open window) should be needed.
You mentioned too much caution with chemistry sets, but talk about unsafe - I found my childhood chemistry set (commercially bought) a while back, and it had a cyanide salt in it (iron cyanide, I believe) Believe that? Mix with acid and take a dirt nap. When I was 8, I didn't know what any of that crap was. I'm lucky I didn't decide to "supplement" the kit with a little white vinegar. So I think there's a happy medium between hte (not so) good old days and too much paranoia.
If you got your money in at the same time as preferred investors, I'm definitely asking how. Were you' *part* of the IPO, or did you buy shares immediately *after* the IPO? There's quite a difference there. Because Red Hat's IPO was definitely not public.
Yep. I assume you're saying that I've been indoctrinated somehow. Probably not true; I fought with Safety Dept. all the time. But at the same time, I have enough sense not to perform reactions with dangerous, toxic chemicals in a poorly ventilated garage. And if you're implying that the older chemist is more cavalier, you may be right. And I've seen many of them die young from exposure to chemicals, too. If one is to spend 50 years as a chemist, one needs to be careful to make sure that mistakes aren't fatal.
I started exploring my interest in chemistry at home, with home chemistry kits (which are lame nowadays by comparison) and then with ordinary household chemicals that can do interesting things. Even after having a Ph.D. for several years, I explored the shelves at home for interesting experiments. Is these things crimes in your opinion?
Depends on the chemicals and the experiment.
Newsflash: those caustic or otherwise dangerous chemicals are ALREADY in most homes. What's wrong with experimentation, assuming SOME level of proper guidance?
Nothing, assuming proper training and safety precautions. The key is the word "proper" that you use. And some chemicals are too dangerous for home use under any circumstances.
Finally, I will add that I have noticed that many chemistry programs, college level now, have surplanted the teaching of proper techniques in the name of "safety." I wrote a report for a private college a few years ago in which I stated: "If our chemists are not trained in the proper handling of hazardous materials, who in our society will be?"
I'd ask what these techniques are. Yes, our safety department was frequently overzealous, but nothing was ever forbidden, they just liked extra-safe storage. When I was an undergrad, I don't believe our experiments were ever compromised due to safety. We were, in fact, trained properly with the chemicals we used. I'm not going to blindly defend whatever safety department with which you've been feuding, for all I know they are morons.
I've seen the trend toward no toxics in Gen Chem Lab, and it bugs me. There's also a similar trend in Organic Lab, of all places.
Gen Chem, I can maybe see the point. You get some serious idiots in Gen Chem. I don't think we used much anything more toxic than HNO3 in Gen Chem. But since the point is technique, not specific reactions, you shouldn't really need anything more toxic than that in Gen Chem. However, I don't know how you'd even try Orgo without anything toxic, I'll definitely agree there. But at the same time, these are still students - you don't want them exposed to, say, methylmercury in undergrad lab, do you?
Three, pressures from gov't groups, like Fire Marshalls or BATF, etc, on 'proper' storage and handling equipment (which is bunk in many cases).
We had enough chemical fires for me to see their point. First, they're risking their lives. Second, in a given lab, you need to treat each chemical as if it were the most dangerous chemical in the room, simply because firefighters and other emergency personnel can't tell the difference. That's what I finally realized - most of the safety precautions and info is in place to convince the emergency crews that they're not risking their lives trying to put out fires.
Yes, and if you only posed a danger to yourself, I'd give you your Darwin award now in advance. But you also pose a risk to your neighbors and potentially firefighters if you screw up.
The article casts chemicals like "perchlorate" in the light of "makes bombs", which is misleading. Yes, perchlorate can be used to make bombs, but it's also the main ingredient in a large number of other pyrotechnic effects which *don't* go boom.
Doesn't matter. Perchlorate salts are dangerous *by themselves*, which I hope you know. When they dry, they're shock sensitive. When I was in grad school some 1st year blew up a lab that way. People were cleaning out used glassware, and smashing it to fit it in the broken glass containers. One had a coating of dried perchlorate. Took out a whole lab.
The government, and the lay public, are increasingly of the opinion that anyone who does anything after work other than chug a Pabst and watch their 57 channels of dreck is a terrorist, or about-to-be terrorist. Which is a sad state indeed...
That's not my point. My point is, to use dangerous chemicals, you need to have a lab that's up to code and a good bit of training. Otherwise, what you're doing is illegal anyway, without invoking the word "terrorist."
I didn't say a degree was neccessary, but that it was (hopefully) sufficient. Having a degree in chemistry is one way. Well trained chemical technicians would also apply.
I absolutely despise people like you. College edu-ma-cated = blazing asshole today it seems. I guarentee that there are at least 3 non-college educated, non-chemists within the 100 mile radius of you that knows far more about chemistry that you do mister smarty pants.
Go put words in someone else's mouth, asshole. That's not what I meant, and not what I said. A CHEMIST is someone with training in CHEMISTRY, it doesn't mean a 4 yr degree necessarily.
Did you look at the list of chemicals these people are selling? It wasn't crap like acetic acid. It was things like perchlorates. Which, I might add, tend to be explosive.
The submission asks whether people are afraid of science. The question should be, are people afraid to use caustic, explosive, and potentially fatal chemicals without safety procedures or training? I sure hope the answer is yes, and I would consider that a good thing.
They can't come after you if you didn't actually follow through on the order. Deciding not to do it *beforehand* is OK - *after the fact* not so much.
On another note, to all the people who actually *did* back out of your commitments, I have two things to say:
1) at the point where they opened up the IPO to (basically) the public, you should have known the stock was a dog. Companies use access to IPOs as perks to financial institutions in return for favors, like reduced rates on loans. If they open the IPO up to regular people, run.
2) If you can't stand risk in investing, stay in the kiddie pool. Enjoy the 1.5% return on your savings account.
Do you have any *evidence* to prove that American kids are more greedy than others? Especially since they took this gimmick from Eastern European hackers? No? Then shut the fuck up you ignorant shit.
Yet last I saw the UK is still standing and ruling N. Ireland.
As a Caltech grad I'd love to agree with you, but I think the finance center in SF helped make Si valley what it is, and Pasadena (even LA) don't really have that. Oh, and Gordon Moore *is* a Techer and he still didn't found Intel in Pasadena. Instead, you have JPL.
The school is saying that the Columbine mention falls outside 1st Amendment protection as it is a threat, and that they are therefore perfectly within their rights to get rid of the kid.
That said, they are somewhat undermined, as his mother pointed out, by their complete lack of action with regard to following up on this "threat" (not calling the cops, for instance).
No way. Assuming the story is as claimed - and he's being silenced by the school - him sticking to his guns and teh 1st Amendment is the kind of thing that schools eat up. I have no idea what his grades look like, but I'd say this *increases* his chances of getting into Harvard. He'll have to leave out the vulgar bits he posted, but a little creative editing never hurt anyone.
Can't remember where I read it, but I think they're planning on NOT letting local warlords into the distribution loop. How they'll get access to the countrties without paying said tribute (or getting shot) I don't know.
Yes, but since the scalpers and Ticketmaster won't go to the events, they effectively just become middlemen. In the end, the market does sort it out. I know what you mean about markets not being ideal, but I'd say the aftermarket in a very public auction ends up being about as friction-free as possible. As others have said - either you want to go to the event badly enough, or you don't.
*Femto*second laser spectroscopy has been available for some time now to investigate chemical reactions that happen much faster than nanoseconds. Got the Nobel Prize in Chemistry in 1999 for Zewail.
It was also the first time they didn't introduce a new product during that respective quarter. When you pay superficial attention to simple statistics, your analysis falls flat.
And on top of that shocking result Apple warned about next quarters numbers in the last quarterly report. I guess you didn't bother to read or listen to it.
You're right. Being a Mac owner and not a brainless zealot (or an Apple shareholder), it wasn't worth my time.
Because if they did the leaders of said company would end up in a federal pound-me-in-the-ass prison. But in general, the gov. much prefers standard (American) vendors. Don't expect to get some beigebox from Bob's Computers approved anytime soon either. And if you're suggesting that Dell is really some sleeper spy effort by the Chinese...well, adjust the bandstop filter on your tinfoil hat.
Where the hell did you get that?
I wasn't aware Google is eligible to be considered a common carrier. I thought that was more the regime of your ISP.
It still checks, you just aren't using the results of that check.
Wait...did I miss a wonderful Sony product offering, or did 5 idiot moderators miss the sarcasm bit like usual?
That's not my point. My point isn't that Tannenbaum should give up his research, but the constant anklebiting at Linux.