Why Sony is Ready to Self Destruct

jammmma writes "Before even launching the PS3, Sony is ready to self destruct." From the article: "PS3 is doomed, thanks to Sony's ignorant attitude. None of us had the chance to seriously evaluate PS3 and the experience it has to offer. It's impossible without a series of titles and an official product at hand, but from where we stand, Sony's damaging attitude is all it takes to diminish the value of PS3. Kutaragi may be right in defending PS3; after all, he can't criticize his own product, but instead of exciting users with valuable features and winning them over so they can start saving, Kutaragi makes bearish statements in response to Nintendo's announcement and Microsoft's take on Sony. Last I heard companies were at E3 to impress media personnel, which yielded positive publicity, not make childish remarks when chances were against them."

Comments

it's been ongoing for a while

[yagu]

SONY isn't ready to self-destruct, but it may be nearing the final disposition of its actions the past ten years including more and more proprietary technology, higher prices, and disdain for the customers.

Consider:

• Ten years ago, SONY began making integrated stereo components, designed to interact with each other. I found this an exciting and enticing trend until I discovered if I wanted to take advantage of it, I'd have to completely replace all components in my system -- no accommodations for any "foreign" components. I know their ultimate motivation is to sell SONY, but with even a modicum of extended compatibility I would have considered their new systems. In its "introduced" form, I not only refused to buy, I steered any prospective customers away (and I had lots of people asking for recommendations).
• Also about ten years ago SONY introduced the mini-disk. It was cool before mp3, but it was theirs. I took a chance at the high school dance and got a recordable mini-disk unit... knowing (thought so) the prices would plummet in a year or so and I could round out my collection with much more reasonably priced players. It never happened. When pressed for an explanation, my local favorite salesman explained SONY refused to license the technology for anything less than exorbitant fees so no one was offering the technology other than SONY, or if they did, it was for continued outrageous prices. (This was about the time I really started developing the "fuck you SONY" attitude.)
• SONY jumped into the small-gadget fray by gambling they could introduce their idea of what was the perfect storage device, the memory stick. Memory ick ! It was expensive, held less data, and once again jealously guarded by SONY. If the rest of the world didn't like SONY's game, SONY would just take their ball and go home.
• SONY and RootKit-gate. 'nuff said.

I don't know who's truly at the helm at SONY, but it's almost as if they've intentionally dug this hole, about six feet deep. I long ago eBay'ed and divested myself of all SONY equipment (still have SONY music CDs, sorry... ) and swore that, until SONY plays a little more nice, I'll never buy, recommend, anything SONY again.

I've never been a video game fan, so I don't know about SONY's escapades around those, but from what I see and hear it seems SONY is consistent across their offerings and markets.

So, it isn't SONY "ready to self-destruct", it's SONY reaping the rewards of what it's sown. It's too bad, they've shown they're capable of creating sophisticated and innovative new technologies.

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[Lead Butthead]

If the rest of the world didn't like SONY's game, SONY would just take their ball and go home.

This really shouldn't be a surprise to anyone; Sony exhabited the exact same behavior all the way back to Beta days. When it finally conceded defeat and released VHS decks, it still outpriced them comparing to other competitors.

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[harrkev]

But also forgot about Sony's line of wonderful MP3 players. Those are fine pieces of technology that really enables the consumer.

Hmmm -- ATRAC, "Connect" software -- never mind.

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[The_Real_Quaid]

Let's not forget that the Walkman, the very product that "put Sony on the map", was in fact stolen. It took over 20 years to settle the case. meanwhile Sony profited enormously.

Sony has always been crooked. THey also stole the rumble feature for their game controllers and got slapped to the tune of $90M.

The rootkit is just another symptom of the widespread sickness at Sony Corp.

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[PaulMorel]

Regarding your question about Sony videogames, their record isn't good.

They pioneered the MMOG, in a significant way, with Everquest, but since then, they seem to be dedicated to destroying valuable intellectual properties.

Star Wars Galaxies (SWG) was one of the most hyped games of all time. As the first Sony follow-up to EverQuest, with one of the best SciFi properties out there, EVERYONE expected this game to be great. The pre-launch registered users who contributed to the SWG forums daily was ridiculously high. Every gamer was desparate for info about SWG because it just looked so hot. Sony bragged on and on about all the features the game would have: you could occupy any planet, play any race, take up a multitude of professions, buy a starship, go into politics ... etc.

Well, as the launch date approached, strange things started to happen. First, the features that were cut were small. I think the first thing that was cut was owning property. Everyone said, ok, you won't be able to buy a house at launch, but with all the other features, who cares? Then came the deluge.

Amid a sea of rabidly eager fans, Sony cut the feature list in half about a month before launch. Needless to say, the release was a fiasco. Even the features that were left in were buggy, and the development team was slow to react.

The impression from the Dev team was: the higher-ups forced us to release a product that wasn't ready yet, just to get the revenue flowing. So the game was stagnant; eventually they fixed a lot of the bugs, and the addons added some of the features that were left out, but by then it was too late. Now the game is all but dead.

Outside of the MMOG arena, Sony has been similarly unsuccessful; they have some great licensed games (God of War, GTA), but the games developed in-house tend to be god-awful crapfests (imho).

I also boycott Sony products btw, but more as a response to SWG, EQ2, and rootkitgate than anything else.

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[penguinstorm]

MiniDisc licencees included:
JVC, Kenwood, Aiwa, Sharp, Denon, Alpine, Yamaha, Panasonic, Onkyo and Marantz.

Even granting that Aiwa is owned by Sony, I'd hardly call that "no one was offering the technology other than SONY."

Minidisc was cool, and I last recommended one to a woman who was doing anthropological field research in Africa. Why? The advantages of cassette (vs. an iPod, for example) with the ability to jack it directly to a computer through USB.

Next wave of MP3 player/recorders may make this redundant, but it was a decent solution at the time and that wasn't that long ago.

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[DoofusOfDeath]

This sounds very much like IBM's problems in the 80's. IBM had a very proprietary attitude regarding busses (MicroChannel Architecture), networking (LUA / SNA), and probably others. My impression (and I worked at IBM for a while) was that IBM figured it could get away with designs that required end-to-end IBM'ness, because the big customers would buy ALL their kit from IBM anyway. And in that sales situation, why let other companies have an in?

Similar thing seems to happen with Microsoft in the last 10 years or so. They want soup-to-nuts control of the software ecosystem. For example, ActiveDirectory on the servers and clients. And like IBM, other companies will have to pay $$$ to MS if they want to be part of that ecosystem (i.e. if they want to provide domain servers). A bit more open than IBM, but not much.

Now, it's possible that the architects at these companies aren't attempting lock-in. Instead, perhaps that think to themselves, "We have some customers who are willing to buy everything from us. For that scenario, let's rethink (and re-build) the entire infrastructure so that it's totally clean and convenient." Thus, the strong affinity of that company's products for working with that company's other products.

But either way, the result is as the parent describes with SONY: In the end, it's just too risky and expensive for most potential customers do swallow that red pill.

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[nschubach]

"They pioneered the MMOG, in a significant way, with Everquest, but since then, they seem to be dedicated to destroying valuable intellectual properties."

Verant and 989 Studios actually.... Verant created the game and 989 published it. (for the price of $9.89/month) SOE simply bought the rights and continued the game.

I'm not a Sony Fanboi by any measure, but I can't support Microsoft's XBox. It's a moral dilemma for me, so I will most likely be purchasing a PS3. Nintendo makes a fun system, but it's not for me. I want a serious game console. Micro-payments and add-on equipment put a serious distaste in my mouth.

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[adachan]

Mostly agreed, however, dont forget that Sony TVs are still by far the best. The XBR is far superior to anything else in its class. The price is competitive, and its made in USA!!! I dont mean the low end TVs either. Low end TVs are all cheap, and are exactly what you pay for, regardless of the company. High emd Sony TVs are much more robust in the features, and the pictures seem to just look better (my opinion of course).

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[SillyNickName4me]

This sounds very much like IBM's problems in the 80's. IBM had a very proprietary attitude regarding busses (MicroChannel Architecture), networking (LUA / SNA), and probably others. My impression (and I worked at IBM for a while) was that IBM figured it could get away with designs that required end-to-end IBM'ness, because the big customers would buy ALL their kit from IBM anyway. And in that sales situation, why let other companies have an in?

While you are quite right with regards to IBM's general attitude back then, MCA isn't a very good example of it, it is actually an interesting incident.

As you may know, some companies (Appricot comes to mind inmediately) produced MCA machines as well. Compaq could have if they wanted to, but had its own reasons for wanting an alternative.

What happened was that those companies that actually produced, or could produce MCA machines had settled outstanding licencing issues regarding dma and some other patents used in pcs. This was basicly a requirement for obtaining a licence on MCA technology.

It never caught on for various reasons, the fact that you could mostly get IBM hardware for MCA was an important of them (I do have MCA cards from quite a few other companies here, including 3com, creative, adaptec and intel).

(former IBM employee during the late 80s and all of the 90s)

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[mmkkbb]

Ten years ago, SONY began making integrated stereo components, designed to interact with each other. I found this an exciting and enticing trend until I discovered if I wanted to take advantage of it, I'd have to completely replace all components in my system -- no accommodations for any "foreign" components.

I know JVC had a similar system, and I'm sure other consumer audio manufacturers did as well. I don't think Sony is special in this case.

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[cytg.net]

my uneducated evaluation of the situation. untill now the very success of ps3 and competition have been primarly evaluated by time to market. when can they launch, and secondly, at what price. If history are to teach us a lesson, we have seen this set of dices thrown numeruous times before. It's always the same. When you design a new chip. The yields, 'bin splits', is the major success criteria .. when is the new design ready to roll in sufficient quantities. And apparently, pr. history (choose track of own choice), this is a major undetermined variable in the risc factor equation. Im betting that the cell is having a somewhat .. troubled birth.. nothing more, nothing less, same as usual.

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[ZiakII]

Verant and 989 Studios actually.... Verant created the game and 989 published it. (for the price of $9.89/month) SOE simply bought the rights and continued the game.

I'm not a Sony Fanboi by any measure, but I can't support Microsoft's XBox. It's a moral dilemma for me, so I will most likely be purchasing a PS3. Nintendo makes a fun system, but it's not for me. I want a serious game console. Micro-payments and add-on equipment put a serious distaste in my mouth.

And if you talk to any Everquest players they will tell you the game went down hill after scars of velious once *drumroll* sony took over...

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude. Almost all of those are medium to high-end electronics companies (which the exception of Sharp and JVC [even though JVC even has some nice stuff], and perhaps Kenwood if you want to push it). Aiwa doesn't even count because it's just an extension of the Sony penis. Anyway... To get back on track. Of course they licensed minidisc. They would be charging very high prices and could handle the blow from Sony's ripoff licensing costs. However, the average joe would not be able to afford some of those brands, let alone find their products in the average electronics store back when minidisc was in its prime.

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[Traiklin]

Let's not forget that the Walkman, the very product that "put Sony on the map", was in fact stolen. It took over 20 years to settle the case. meanwhile Sony profited enormously.

hmm, why does that sound so familiar? oh wait I know, Microsoft did the exact samething! as does every company to ever "create" something.

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[Moofie]

"I want a serious game console."

Yeah, that's what I look for in a console. Not fun...seriousness.

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[Anonymous Coward]

When it finally conceded defeat and released VHS decks, it still outpriced them comparing to other competitors.

While that is true, it might be a case of "you get what you pay for". I've still got an old, old Sony VHS deck, and it still works well.

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[Anonymous Coward]

"I want a serious game console."

"Yeah, that's what I look for in a console. Not fun...seriousness."

It is a very strange sentence anyway, the Wii is just as serious as any other console, except for maybe, the name.

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[TheRealFixer]

If you think the launch was bad, you should see the game now.

Overall, even with all the faults that SWG had at launch, it still was really one of the most innovative MMORPGs out there. You really could follow your own path in the game. It appealed to all kinds of people, both male and female. If combat was your thing, there was plenty of choice in that path, and plenty of challenge. If you'd prefer to sit on the sidelines, non-combat professions were a very valued part of the community. Even people who just prefered the social aspects of the MMO world could server a purpose. From a community simulation perspective, it was easily the most flexable game around.

But, there was a serious lack of game content at launch. Promised features like player cities and vehicles were conspiciously missing from the game. Other features like instanced battlefields that could support massive numbers never worked correctly outside of the test lab and were abandoned shortly after launch. Quests would lead nowhere (Vader says, "Go speak to the Emperor." The Emperor says, "Go speak with Vader."). The overall point of the game (the Galactic Civil War) wasn't even really implimented, as PvP battles served no purpose other than virtual chest beating and bragging rights, and had no big-picture impact on the game. The game itself was beautiful, but shallow. Players tried their best to make up their own content, with player-hosted events and pointless (but still fun) battles in NPC cities. But by December of '03, the game was really bleeding subscriptions badly.

Then, some brilliant person at SoE decided that what everyone really wanted was to be a Jedi, and that would magically stop the exodus from the game. So, instead of adding the missing content, they dangled the prospect of unlocking a Jedi character in front of every player (something they had promised would not be the case). And it did keep a certain element from cancelling. Thus was born the Great Holiday Hologrind, which severly damaged the social aspects of the game, and also wrecked havoc on what had been a fairly healthy in-game economy.

Eventually it was passed around that the big, mysterious secret to unlocking it was nothing more than just mastering every profession in the game in turn. Now, Jedi were originally planned to be *extremely* rare, even to the point of being random and only a handful on each server. Since god-mode characters are generally not a good idea in an online game, their power would be offset by the threat of perma-death for the character, forcing you to start all over again. When enough people started unlocking Jedi characters, the ritilan-addicted "power gamer" element whined and complained about perma-death, SoE capitulated, and it was removed. Now, you had high-level Jedi running around one-hit killing everyone with no consequences. Even if by some miracle you took one down, it did little good. PvP battles became nothing more than competitions to see which side could pull out the most Jedi. People who had no interest in playing Jedi (otherwise defined as "subscribers with real long-term potential") were forced into hiding.

SoE made one blunder after another after that. Each modification to game balance seemed to throw the game further and further off-base. This can directly be traced to overpopulation of Jedi and the fact that they were never meant to be a balanced profession in the first place. The type of player who was attracted to playing a Jedi (and who could sit there and grind combat XP for 16 hours a day for a month) seemed to be the type of person who had little to no patience for complex combat systems that required forethought and strategy. So, SoE took their unique "HAM" multi-health-bar system, and turned it into EQ-style combat, dumbing it down to simple hack-and-slash.

Eventually, SoE made the amazing decision to eliminate the profession system altogether, and force everyone into clones of the same 8 "classes" and dub it the "New Game Experience". They completely eliminated

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[heinousjay]

You have a unique way of forming English sentences. Am I correct in assuming you are not a native speaker?

Serious game console, indeed.

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[OctaviusIII]

So, it isn't SONY "ready to self-destruct", it's SONY reaping the rewards of what it's sown. It's too bad, they've shown they're capable of creating sophisticated and innovative new technologies. So... it's in the process of destructing because of its own actions.

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[dank zappingly]

I can't believe how many people are complaining about this thing being overpriced when it's being sold at a loss of between 100 and 200 dollars depending on who you ask. Yes it is expensive for a game console, but come on, there are graphics cards that cost that much. Some people want to buy a gaming platform that will be functional for more than two years. When you're talking about something I'm going to be using for the next couple of years, 100 dollars sure isn't that much money. The other thing people don't really seem to consider is that Sony has a track record for supporting their consoles. They are still going to be releasing exclusive games for the PS2 when the PS3 is being released. There hasn't been a noteworthy xbox game out since like Halo 2. Oh yeah, and it will play all PS1 and PS2 games, not that crappy emulation the 360 has. And online doesn't cost anything, and might even be decent this time around. By the time you add everything up, the ps3 seems like a steal. Sure there are people who don't understand all this, but i think most people who are spending this much money will do a little research . I never thought I'd see so much hatred for a linux box on /. People who are going on and on about how Blu-ray isn't going to win and they don't want to commit don't seem to be taking into account that by 2007 there are going to be 4 million blu ray players all over the world. Who wants a High Def video format? People with HDTV's who tend to be more price insensitive than the general populace and also tend to buy the most advanced technology. People are saying that there's no way a game is ever going to run over 1 DVD? I will bet anyone any amount of money that the new Final Fantasy game will. How many minutes of HD cutscenes can you fit on a dvd? It might even require a dual layer disk. Microsoft can back HDDVD all they want, they can give out their expansion drives for free and it won't matter. The PS3 is steep, but it will be useful for far longer than the 360. I'm going to preorder now so that I can get one by 2k7.

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[DeadChobi]

"I can't believe how many people are complaining about this thing being overpriced when it's being sold at a loss of between 100 and 200 dollars depending on who you ask. Yes it is expensive for a game console, but come on, there are graphics cards that cost that much."

Those of us complaining are not buying your $700 graphics card. In fact, with that attitude Sony might as well change their Playstation line's motto to "Not for everyone."

"The other thing people don't really seem to consider is that Sony has a track record for supporting their consoles. They are still going to be releasing exclusive games for the PS2 when the PS3 is being released. There hasn't been a noteworthy xbox game out since like Halo 2. Oh yeah, and it will play all PS1 and PS2 games, not that crappy emulation the 360 has. And online doesn't cost anything, and might even be decent this time around."

Funny you should mention their track record, since my old style PS2 with the HDD bay was so poorly manufactured that dust would get on the lens. I googled the problem, and Sony wasnt even providing any information on this issue. The only thing I could do since it wasnt within warranty was pay to have it shipped back to Sony so that I could then buy a refurbished PS2 for $100. I did what any sensible customer would do, and cracked it open to clean off the lens my own damn self.

"I never thought I'd see so much hatred for a linux box on /. People who are going on and on about how Blu-ray isn't going to win and they don't want to commit don't seem to be taking into account that by 2007 there are going to be 4 million blu ray players all over the world. Who wants a High Def video format? People with HDTV's who tend to be more price insensitive than the general populace and also tend to buy the most advanced technology."

Wow. 4 million? Gee. That's only .065% of the world's population. That's a considerable target audience.

"People are saying that there's no way a game is ever going to run over 1 DVD? I will bet anyone any amount of money that the new Final Fantasy game will. How many minutes of HD cutscenes can you fit on a dvd? It might even require a dual layer disk. Microsoft can back HDDVD all they want, they can give out their expansion drives for free and it won't matter. The PS3 is steep, but it will be useful for far longer than the 360. I'm going to preorder now so that I can get one by 2k7."

Ya~y, cutscenes! More non-interactivity! And FYI, if you're talking about FFXII, that's coming out on the PS2. Aldo, FYI there have been a number of dual-layer PS2 games already.

I think I'll be stepping back to let people like you decide the outcome of the format war. Those of us who dont care will be over here, playing with our Wii~ and laughing all the way to the bank.

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[IntlHarvester]

While cost/license issues may have played a role, the biggest problem with MCA was control -- IBM could have used the MCA license to basically dictate what sort of machines the PC industry could build, and even what operating system to put on them. Or that was the fear anyway.

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[bufalo_1973]

So they turned "Star Wars Galaxies" into "Kingdom Come" (DC)?

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[crabpeople]

"They pioneered the MMOG, in a significant way, with Everquest, but since then, they seem to be dedicated to destroying valuable intellectual properties."

Speaking as someone who took a week off of playing UO for the everquest beta (i still have a the disc somewhere), i think its QUITE the stretch to say that they pioneered anything to do with a MMORPG. I mean diablo was even around way before everquest.

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[SillyNickName4me]

IBM could have used the MCA license to basically dictate what sort of machines the PC industry could build

That they could, altho for all I can tell from the inside back then, IBM at that time lived in fear for being split up like AT&T was earlier. They were uncomfortable with not being in control over the pc market, but from what I can tell, by 1988 or maybe earlier already they had realized that they'd have to compete based on quality and features also (still believed in that the name would do at least half of the selling.. but seeing that that was changing rapidly). Yeah, they'd have liked to gain back that control, but fear for being split up or otherwise being restricted by court made them play pretty fair with regards to their attempts to get some control.

Their licencing terms were strict, and they were definitely trying to make a buck from their competitors, and specifically, they were trying to get some money from those whom had been undercutting their prices while also ignoring their patents.. but for all I can tell that was the main purpose of it.

, and even what operating system to put on them. Or that was the fear anyway.

The first 'fear' is for something that was possible, tho for what I know not very likely. The second 'fear' is just nonsense as everyone knows who ever looked at the interface it offers to an OS. It is very clean and well documented, and seems pretty easy to use.. Machines using it can run most operating systems that will also run on other x86 hardware from that time, at least I have had Solaris (2.6 ...), NetBSD, Linux, FreeBSD, OS/2, DOS and NT 3.5 on MCA based machines, and when looking at the Net/FreeBSD mca code, the bus seems to be a lot more straightforward and easy to use then say pci or the mess that is isa pnp. Auto configuring, and can tell you basicly everything about every card you'd need to know to attach a driver to it in a nicely structured way.

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[hjf]

I'm into the electronics repair business. I've been doing that for a few years now. It's a fact that the company is supposed to give you the spare parts for free, and pay you for the work you do on the device. That's how most companies work here anyway. Not Sony. They expect you to BUY the parts, then repair, and then they, at the end of the month, will pay you for the parts and labor. That's ridiculous if you ask me. That happens here in Argentina. Also, a salesman of some imported chinese crap told me once, he was very good so Sony wanted him. He went to talk to Sony Argentina, and was received by the president (it's not that big of a company here. They don't even import the PS2). So the guy asks, what is the salary? Well.. the same you are getting now. Ermm... what are the benefits then? Well... the same you get now. So why on earth would I want to come to work at Sony and quit my old job? Well... because this is Sony! Can you believe it? I think they get some heavy brainwashing in that company.

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[Lumpy]

all the way back to Beta days. When it finally conceded defeat and released VHS decks

Conceded defeat? they never did that. Sony simply took the BetaMax and refined it to BetaCam and BetaCAM SP and owned the professional video market ever cince. Only now is sony losing it's fooding in the pro video market with the digital standard set up by JVC called MiniDV and DVCAM. Which is robust enough to handle the HD signals on the new HD camera systems.

Sony even tried to wedge in there with their own tiny digital camcorder tape. It died a horrible death just like SACD did.

In pro video Sony is still the defacto standard. Live events still use a DME9000 editing suite made by sony, most remote live semi-trailer studios are mostly sony gear as well still to this day.

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[RubberDogBone]

Geeky point: the Minidisc is actually older than you might have realized. It was first announced by Sony in 1991, making it closer to 15 years old rather than 10.

Another note is that other companies DID make plenty of MD devices but most of them were sold only in Japan.

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[Anonymous Coward]

Who gives a fuck what you think? When did you ever build a shortwave radio as brilliant as my Sony 7600? Or a VCR as good as a DVW A500P? MiniDisc was shit, but that hardly outweighs all the amazing stuff Sony's done over the last 40 years. Shut your ignorant, whining yap.

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[trenien]

I think SONY's are completely skewed by two facts: - first they do own significant portion of the professional market with their products - like what the parent post said about video. It's the same with minidisk, a very large portion of the professionals needing a way to record on the job use it a lot still. Of course it'll eventually be replaced by mp3 recorders. - second, they see their prospective base through the japanese market which is significantly different. While even here the price tag isn't puny, it won't stop all these working 20somethings still living at their parents places (we're talking millions of people there) whom salary is basically there to be blown.

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[Taeolas]

Sony always owned the rights to Everquest; they spun off 989 Studios and Verant to develop it, but the rights were always in Sony's hands. When EQ proved to be a hit, they pulled Verant more fully back into teh fold, and respun it as Sony Online Entertainment (SOE). (Don't forget, Qeynos is Sony EQ backwards)

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[IntlHarvester]

Well, one of the interesting things about MCA was that IBM sat on it until they got out their consent decree. But I'm sure you're right and the were still being watched closely by the government.

This was also right during the period when IBM was holding back on higher-end PCs in order to protect their midrange systems. If they could have contractually limited the clones somehow, they probably would have.

The second 'fear' is just nonsense as everyone knows who ever looked at the interface it offers to an OS.

I wasn't implying there was any technical connection between MCA and OS/2, the fear among clonemakers was that IBM would "bundle" them somehow.

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[rrohbeck]

IBM had a very proprietary attitude regarding busses (MicroChannel Architecture), networking (LUA / SNA), and probably others. My impression (and I worked at IBM for a while) was that IBM figured it could get away with designs that required end-to-end IBM'ness, because the big customers would buy ALL their kit from IBM anyway.

Well, IBM Got It at some point.

I used to work for DEC. Some Get It and some don't.

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[SillyNickName4me]

I wasn't implying there was any technical connection between MCA and OS/2, the fear among clonemakers was that IBM would "bundle" them somehow.

Well, in a way they did, but that was more in the sense of 'a new generation pc and to make proper use of the technology, there is also a new OS.'

This link may have been part of what made people doubtfull indeed despite there being no technical reason to believe this linking in marketing also implied that other operating systems would be restricted somehow from using it (properly?)

At any rate, mca, just like os/2 were from a technical point of view pretty nice, but got screwed over by IBM needing its time to realize how much the world had changed really...

By 1988 they had just caught up with the reality of clones and thought they had figured a nice way to proffit from them (still wonder if they realized how clones had caused the explosive growth of the pc market that had been going on for a while, and how they were already proffiting a lot from that)..

That pcs were turning into a mass market product by then was something they had to get to terms with still (despite the signs being rather clear by then). The only area where they did catch up with the pc market in time was with laptops.. but thats a few years later already.. for the rest it always seemed to me like they were just trying to catchup with reality all the time.

I still have a few mca machines around, the nicest one is a rather 'modded' ps/2 8595, (very early production model from 1992). It currently has an Intel p200 cpu (modified p60 cpu complex). This machine saw active service from its introduction (with a 486dx25 cpu) till 2001 when it became extremely difficult to upgrade to a newer generation cpu. The rest of the machine was still quite comparable to the typical machine of that time, outdoing many in i/o and memory performance. It was insanely expensive for a pc at the time (think in the $15-45k), but then, it basicly stayed current for almost a decade. Oh, and it was built like a tank. You won't do much to it with a sledgehammer :)

Very nice piece of technology, but not the kind of cost effective solution that PCs are about.. It is showing what the technology could do, and as a server it has been pretty succesfull, but in that it is also the exception to the rule for a mca based machine.. the rest of them were far from succesfull and were generally expensive for what they offered. This one wasn't, provided you maintained and updated it.

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[Mark_Uplanguage]

I'm still a SONY fanboy. I love my PS2, and maybe for my Xmas/Birthday I'll be able to swing a PS3. I see a lot of hate out here today, but let's be honest - I'm not ready to hate them for a single delay of their product, and it's only 6 months. There are plenty of I love CELL processor posts, to make me believe the bandwagon riders will be back when the developers get around to unlocking all of the potential in those chips. I can wait for that, there's still plenty of PS2 games I want to play.

As for all the Blu-Ray hype - who gives a f??? Fine, PS3 plays my DVDs but I can't play the games on any other hardware, and that doesn't to be an unusual nor a bad thing. You don't like memory sticks, me neither. But their computers all come with USB ports too - they know how to play the game .

I wouldn't call them idiots, I'd actually call the brave enough to take a stand and try to provide the best solutions. If they want to lock up the format that's their business and things like memory sticks won't stand up to usb thumb drives.

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[Reaperducer]

Another note is that other companies DID make plenty of MD devices but most of them were sold only in Japan.

Actually, they still DO. Go to any Yodobashi Camera location and you'll see lots of non-Sony choices for MD devices. But as you pointed out, it's only in Japan. I wonder why that is.

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[servognome]

Overall, even with all the faults that SWG had at launch, it still was really one of the most innovative MMORPGs out there.

SWG was great and innovative, but ultimately it fell under the weight of it's license.
Even if it wasn't rushed, and was launched in a non-beta state it still would have failed. The gameplay itself was more like Second Life than EQ, which in turn reflected in it's population (both personality and numbers). SOE was looking for WoW type player numbers, so they tried to completely change the gameplay to be like the more popular EQ/WoW phat loot level grind.
SOE is learning that you can't change the personality of an MMO midstream, they ended up alienating the die hard fans and haven't really been able to attract new people.

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[m85476585]

Now the same thing is going on with Blue-ray vs. HD-DVD.

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[Criterion]

The Xbox used to be a moral quandry for me also... but I look at it this way. The Xbox keeps me from the temptation of booting windows to run games. It costs MS money to sell one to me. I have the ability to abstain from buying new games at least 90% of the time (sorry, I WILL buy Halo 3 the day it is released), so I don't contribute to their war chest any more than absolutely neccessary for my gaming habit (and no, don't tell me I can live without Halo.. not gonna happen). Actually I'm starting to find a comfortable spot with them as far as gaming goes. My actual quandry is unusual, because I was all about MS going down, but since they are having to actually compete in this market such that I do have a choice of toys to buy, it seems that they are doing many things better than the competition. My main happy point right now is that you won't be forced to buy an HD-DVD drive ala Sony and their attempt to shove Blu-Ray down everybodies throat.. especially since that is NOT a needed feature for playing games (most of the space on games nowdays is used to store pre-rendered cinematics.. now that we can render that all in real time, well, you do the math). In some ways MS have gained a smidgeon of respect back from me. Certainly not in thier PC products, but I certainly see the 360 as the lesser of 2 evils when compared to the PS3 (yes, in spite of my love for Linux). I truley don't want either console to fail, as the competition is great for the field, but Sony really needs to be taken down a couple of rungs. Seriously. So, in spite of my incredible anti-ms bias, I'm fully for the 360 over the PS3.

It bothers me greatly that it seems that some people are looking the other way just because Sony has decided to use Linux on the console. Don't let them buy you off with that bait.

It's a trick. Get an axe.

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[Criterion]

Sorry, but I missed your mention of add-on equipment in your post and wanted to reply to it also.

Whether you like add-on equipment or not, the fact of the matter is that both companies offer 2 systems. A base and a high-end. The major difference is that you *can* upgrade the base 360 to be identical to the high-end, where you can NOT do this with the Sony packages.

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[ashayh]

They are certainly capable of creating innovative gadgets. The PSP for example is an awesome device. But it is choking, and one reason for that is because Sony insisted on putting a optical drive in a portable player.

A custom optical drive that only licensed players can create discs for. Why would anyone pay twice as much for a movie they might already own in DVD format, to watch in lower quality on a smaller screen? Then their memory stick is (was?) significantly expensive and lacked higher capacity compared to other formats.

They made it difficult to make cool accessories for the PSP like their own upcoming PSP camera. They provide no software for putting your own content on the PSP.(Which may not be a bad thing considering their software reputation) My PSP did not come with a USB cable, it was almost like Sony was discouraging me to connect it with a computer.

Then of course the biggest blunder that all console makers love to make: I buy a computer but only "approved" code can run on it. For the PSP, legalizing homebrew can bring it back to life.

If they had made it legally extensible, people would have had all kinds of accesories/software for it like a camera, cellphone, GPS etc. Truly, an awesome device gone to waste.

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[jamar0303]

Not quite. Panasonic sells their MD players (well, OK, just three) in China, too (although there is a redused Sony presence in the MD market in China).

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[nschubach]

Your absolutely right. I don't think it's right to sell two versions that will never have the chance to be the same. I think it's wrong that the PS3 "Lite" will never see the capabilities of the full bore PS3 as it should be. Bear with me here. In the console market, developers will look at the majority system build and design a game for that market. They will avoid the add-on market for the most part to try to cash in on the greatest numbers. There are a few titles that slip by, but for the most part these added features are rarely seen. How many games have you played that use the dance pad, light gun, Robby(?) the Robot, and all the other extensions that are out there? By Sony including the Blueray Drive in the PS3 at launch as opposed to releasing it later sends a note out to the development community to say, "You have the ability, make it."

Now is where the Anti-BRD people will say, "No game will ever fill that disk!" To that, I need only to look at my hard drive for the answer. I have a 4 games installed right now that are 4GB+ and another that will remain nameless that's just over 15GB. To think that that 4GB barrier will not be breached is pure ignorance. This is the way things will be. Games are getting more complex and will require more room. Taking the stand to say it will not is the same as the old 640K debate. Bill did it before, and he did it again with the 360.

On the note of the LAN controller/Hard Drive/HDMI exclusion: Unfortunately, I agree. This should have been approached as an extension. If the PS3 uses an architecture even close to a PC, they could just as easily extended the board to accept add-in modules like a network device, or who knows what else. Put some thought into the design of the interface, provide a more forgiving license and they would have a hit. Licensing is the other thing I can't agree with Sony on. Microsoft doesn't need to worry about it because it seems that whatever they say is the "standard" nowadays, and normal people accept it. (It pisses me off too!) The only real way to end this debate is to agree to disagree. I'm sure this probably won't even be read given the age of the original story, but at least it's there for someone to read that might care to take more than a glance.


Eat it up flamers, I know there's probably grammar and/or spelling mistakes in there somewhere. You can try to use it against me to make me "look the fool" if you want. I personally don't care. There's only one factor to determine the end to this. The market.

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[AntiGenX]

Fascinating! Thanks for the posts guys!

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[Susceptor]

amen I never bought the PS or PS2 for the same reasson you described above. I did however break down and buy a PSP. I thought, why not, cool games and I can watch movies on it. Well...since I bought it I have a grand total of 3 decent games (Dark Mirror, Ridge Racer and Lumines) As far as the movies, SONY, typical of it's pmpur self, refuses to bring the prices down. I can understand paying $10 for a movie i can watch on the little PSP screen, but $20? or $25?? I can buy a full fleged DVD for that much. And why does SONY not allow the PSP to connect to the TV? It has the capability of playing low movies and games at lower resolutions on tevevision screens, yet SONY has refused to make this happen. I don't know if SONY's PS3 will do well, but I hope that their blu-ray fails. The DVD market is not ready for another disk format so soon. Realistically, we don't need another disc format at all. In the next few years HD treaming and hard disk capacity will be more than sufficient for HD content. I see blu-ray as another attempt by SONY to cram their own choice format down consumers throats, and I hope they fail misserably, just as they did with the mini-disk, just as they did with their pathetic excuse for a storage device they call the memory stick.

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[linuxfanatic1024]

So how come Sony products don't give me troube, but Micro$oft ones do most of the time?

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps in your mind "professionals" use MiniDV; But in the eyes of reality MiniDV is the budget home cam-corder tape.

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[oddguy9000]

Dude, Ultima Online was there before!

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[Hsien]

Thats a fantastic summation of the events which lead to SWG's death. I quit SWG around the time that they discovered the secret to becoming a Jedi and im realy sad to see that its continue to fall into its proverbal void.

Realy makes you wonder what pond MMOG developers creep out of these days, and why on earth someone dosent give me there job =)

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[Anonymous Coward]

I got galaxies when it came out and played it at a friend's house for about a month before cancelling. Lack of content was what drove us away, and the multi-classing is what kept us there that long. Tried it again recently, and it was awe inspiring, I never dreamed they could actually make it worse.

They left in the worthless crafting items like chance cubes, left in the completely stupid pure player run economy (grind boffa treats to gain crafting levels, but since everyone's doing it, no one needs boffa treats, and with no NPCs to sell to and the requirement that quest items must be crafted AFTER getting the quest means you're gonna be dumping a lot of useless junk).
They made resource grinding harder and more boring because not only did they take out mining xp, but the popup anti-afking mining evnets are a LOT more frequent than at release. Now you gotta constantly stare at the screen as leaves toss up around your kneeling character just to make sure you keep getting your 2 units of water per 15 seconds...

Sony should never be allowed near star wars rights ever again.

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[cyberon22]

Parent post has it right with "disdain for customers". I bought one of their new walkmans for about $300 and the thing was a disaster. The only thing it had right was battery life. ATRAC was irrelevant, the software and method of connecting it to the computer were overly complex and required Windows. And as icing on the cake, the software didn't support Chinese language file names despite being purchased IN CHINA in the middle of their splashly product launch.

It worked for about two weeks before the screen broke after being placed in the same pocket I keep my mobile phone. So I ended up taking a morning off to haul the thing in to the Sony repair depot: the place you're supposed to go to get things fixed on-site. I would have loved to get it fixed elsewhere because it wouldn't actually have been necessary to waste an entire morning of my time if Sony authorized 3rd party repair shops, or even made their spare parts available, but Sony has a monopolistic repair policy, so it was a choice between crossing the city to find them or keeping their worthless hardward.

So I turn up at the repair depot which is covering the entire Beijing market... and end up dealing with someone who is both technically incompetent and customer hostile, which is to say that he seemed to consider lying to people his job description. At first he lied and said there were no spare parts in Beijing. Then he admitted they had the spare parts but couldn't fix it because their "repair guy" was backlogged and it would take several hours to open the casing, replace the screen, and close the casing. Finally he said their "service fee" was going to be about $100 USD, significantly more than the cost of getting my LDC screen replaced on my Fujitsu laptop (which managed to dissemble the computer, replace the screen, and reassemble the computer in about 20 minutes).

So as far as I'm concerned Sony can plummet to the depths of hell. If this is their attitude to the people who actually pay the premium price for their products screw them. I headed out to the computer district and bought a 2GB Chinese mp3 player for $40. The battery life is perfectly reasonable, the thing supports Chinese files names, it works like a regular USB drive and has no problem being stuffed in a pocket. It works like... uh.... a walkman should.

Screw Sony. I won't be dancing on their grave, but I might shovel a bit of dirt on it when I get the chance.

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, I know more people who have one of Sony's new MP3 cellphones than have an iPod.

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[MrNiCeGUi]

To think that that 4GB barrier will not be breached is pure ignorance.

Minor nitpick, DVD is 9GB, not 4.

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[nugneant]

it might be a case of "you get what you pay for".

Agreed. The thing with Sony is that when their products aren't built to be absolutely unreliable pieces of shit (PS2), they're built to last. The Trinatron was the TV of choice amongst my friends in the Dreamcast days. And about the MD - while it tanked as a pre-recorded format (as has everything since the CD, for the basic reason that the CD does all that "most people" are looking for), as a way of making field recordings, it is second to none. It's cheaper and more portable than DAT, and the recordings sound better than microcassette (and at maximum compression, offer almost six times the recording capacity as one side of a C-90 microcassette tape - useful when one wishes to conduct a long biographical interview without the need to fiddle around to change tape sides). As someone who makes, ahem, field recordings* on the sly, there's something to be said for a recorder that will fit, unobtrusively, in a breast pocket. MD rocks.

That said (warning, from here on it's probably -1 Redundant), the PS2, while offering a superior library of games and DVD semi-functionality (the slow seek times doom it to a backup unit for me, but there are those who can bear to hold R2 for whole minutes at a time), is probably the most wretchedly fussy console since the good ol' ToasterNES. The DRM fiasco caused my former (tongue in cheek, I assure you) inner Sony fanboy to wither and die, and they really don't seem to have paid much attention to the last ten years of videogame history with the PS3:

Rule #1 - Nobody gives a shit about all-in-ones. c.f. the CDi. If a console happens to have DVD support, that's one thing (and with DVD support it was perfect timing, just as DVDs were beginning to take over the world), but for the most part, people don't care about web-functionality, home theater, or does-your-taxes.
Rule #2 - Nobody mentions Fight-- wait, sorry. Rule #2 - Nobody wants to pay more than $350 for a console. c.f. the Neo-Geo, the Sega Saturn, the aforementioned CDi, and of course, the 3DO. If adding Blu-Ray means your console has to be over the magic $350 line, then maybe you should consider toning it down a notch. Considering we haven't yet seen multiple DVD games (that I'm aware of), it seems to this armchair pundint that a DVD-ROM based console with some glitz (built in hard drive, USB, some fancy controllers, networking out of the box, etc) would be in throbbing demand, and the Blu-Ray console could come out if and when Blu-Ray becomes the Next Big (God forbiDRM) Thing, it could be seen as the budget-oriented gamer's Blu-Ray drive as well. But since budget-oriented folk don't tend to be early adopters, and early adopters would probably feel "safer" with a dedicated player, there really isn't much call for a Blu-Ray / game console.
Rule #3 - Most importantly, the benefits of being second at E3. Remember $299? Yeah. This is anything but.



Anyway. This said, I'm definitely a bit apprehensive about Sony, but given that the 360 is about as popular in Japan as the Manhatten Project, and the Wii is still, despite the bleatings of Nintendo fanboys to the contrary, coming across as more of a casual gamer "gimmick" system (not that that's a bad thing, oh wise and -1 Overrating Nintendo fanboy mods), it seems that Sony isn't totally out of the running. But what was shaping up to be a delightful slaughterfest (as all slaughterfests are - if I sound like a fanboy, it's only because Sony's won the last two rounds. Get me started on the late 80s and I'll sound like a super-gigantic Nintendo fanboy, I assure you) is now in extra-innings. I'd say the E3 showing was the Mookie Wilson groundball through the legs of Bill Buckner (now that we're all up-to-date on our World Series trivia ;-)) of this particular World Series.

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[ThePhilips]

Wild guess: Sony doesn't do software.

Oh, stop, what's "Sony Connect"?!? It doesn't give you trouble? Probably you haven't used it yet.

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought it was the fanboys who, uh, played with their Wiis? *rimshot*

Seriously, though, you're out of your fucking mind if you think the Wii's ever going to amount to more than "point and slash (and LEARN!!) with Zelda till your arm gets tired, then go buy the $50 DS Link so you can feed your Nintendog a Wiibiscuit before going to bed".

Red Dawn? Woooooo, Turok from the year 2K6!!! With a magic wand!! Yawn. If you want me, I'll be over there, in the "not playing this generation of videogames" corner, napping, as I wait for the PS3 price to drop to something approximating reasonability. Please try not to bang your Wii-stick around too much, it'll be a long nap.

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[nugneant]

I think Sharp sells MD recorders here in the States. Or used to, at the very least.

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[ThePhilips]

I haven't seen computer DVD9 yet. Only DVD5.
All PC DVD games I own - are all on DVD5.

The only DVD9s I have seen - are movies. About of 95% of DVD movies I have are DVD9. Few are DVD5.

P.S. DVD5 is the name for single layer DVD with capacity about 4.7GB. DVD9 is the name for dual layer DVD with capacity about 8.5GB.

P.P.S. cost of DVD5 is $0.50, DVD9 on other hand is $2.50 IOW, DVD5 are much cheaper compared to DVD9s.

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[NitsujTPU]

It is a very strange sentence anyway, the Wii is just as serious as any other console, except for maybe, the name.

Yes, only children say Wii anyway. It would sound much more adult to call it the Urine.

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[tehcyder]

It's a moral dilemma for me

You are truly a deep-thinking, incredibly serious, mature and ethical person.

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[ThePhilips]

Sure there are people who don't understand all this, but i think most people who are spending this much money will do a little research.

Precisely the point people try to tell all over the thread: target audience of the game console doesn't have such money, to begin with. No such money. Period.

Probably shops would come with some financing plans. But again, how many of target audience (kids) can apply to any kind of financing? Be I kind, I definitely wouldn't want to give up on my pocket cash for half of year. And the kid would want to buy some games too. Isn't it?

Have no clue how it would be on launch, but at moment even $500 seems to be over any margin.

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[Blue_Wombat]

Don't forget their greedy arrogance and "screw the customer" attitude, which is the reason my home has not had any Sony purchases for the past 5 years. In this country there has never been much point in buying a DVD player that is not multizone. All machines are pretty much sold as this *except* Sony's. When I bought mine about 5 years ago the salesman asked what I wanted, I replied "quality and multizone", and his answer was to buy anything but a Sony - good advice. Same with Minidisc - the technology was a good idea at the time, but the anti-consumer DRM was just ridiculous. When I questioned the DRM in the shop (I actually had cash on me and was looking to buy) they Sony salesman as good as called me a dirty pirate and a thief. And lets not forget their constant boosting of DRM, ArcOSS, and of course the infamous rootkit saga.

Personally, although I am not that much of a "tech guy" I kind of have that reputation at work. So far I am fairly convinced that my strong advice has cost Sony sale of at least 2 music players, a fairly high end component sound system and three plasma screens to my colleagues. I also got the rootkit a lot of publicity and got close to IT banning Sony music CDs from being inserted into work computers - and am fairly certain that put some people off copy protection and Sony branded CDs. I bet many on slashdot have a similar or (likely!) better tech rep with friends and family than mine - so do the same people - hit the bastards in the revenue line, it's probably the only thing the cretins will finally understand.

NB: Regarding game consoles, much as it sticks in my throat, Go Microsoft ......(coughs up hairball)

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[brunes69]

SONY jumped into the small-gadget fray by gambling they could introduce their idea of what was the perfect storage device, the memory stick. Memory ick ! It was expensive, held less data, and once again jealously guarded by SONY. If the rest of the world didn't like SONY's game, SONY would just take their ball and go home.

Memory stick isn't all bad.

Sony has one thing going for them in this area - Sony compatability. I mean, I know that if I buy a Sony Vaio, I know without even reading the packaging it will be able to read the memory sticks from my Sony Cybershot. Same with a Sony Clie, or a Sony MP3 player.

At least they picked *one* format. It may be proprietary and their own, but they picked one. The digital device market is already saturated with formats - CF, SD, XD, MMC, SM.... all of these are more "open" than MS, but none of them is dominant.

I am just trying to point out that MS is no better or worse than any of the others. It is all the manufactuers collective faults that they couldn't agree on a single memory standard. Same thing is happening with HD-DVD/Blu-Ray. No one wins, everyone loses.

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[vampares]

"Only now is sony losing it's fooding in the pro video market"

over what?

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[twistedsymphony]

Regardless of what you've seen on the computer 100% of Xbox 360 discs are DVD9, the security sector is stored on the 2nd layer meaning the disc has that full capacity even if it only needs only the fraction of a CD's storage. IIRC most (if not all) Xbox 1 games are like this too.

So sure a lot of his PC games are reaching 4GB, but for DVDs to not be enough they'll have to somehow double in size over the next 4 years. Any game with that much content is probably an RPG, which can either install to the HDD (a'la FFXI) or span multiple discs (like the old PS1 FF games).

Not to mention with procedural synthesis (which AFAIK hasn't yet been used by anything on the market) games will get much smaller as they'll only be storing descriptions of items instead of full fledged models. There's something to be said for compression too. Sure most Gamecube games spanned 2 discs but because of the short space most games were heavily compressed. With lots of compression like that console games load faster because it's faster to decompress the file then transfer it raw over the DVD drive's bottleneck. I'm sure this will rear it's ugly head with the PS3 considering that they're requiring all games be pressed to BRD as part of their copy-protection measures. the discs will have so much space that most developers wont bother to compress the files (unless they're making a conscious effort to reduce loading times), add that to slow as molasses transfer speed of the 1st gen BRD drive....

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[harrkev]

NB: Regarding game consoles, much as it sticks in my throat, Go Microsoft ......(coughs up hairball)

Why not Nintendo? Not as much eye candy, but at least Nintendo scores very low on the evil scale, as compared to the other two.

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[soupforare]

Buy a GBA.
No bullshit, huge game library, good battery life, good homebrew community.

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[Rico_Suave]

They most certainly did concede defeat in the consumer market... first by actually selling VHS players, and secondly by killing off the Betamax line. Betacam, while based on the same technology, is not compatible with betamax.

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[sgtrock]

True to some extent. Part of the issue was the sheer cost of MCA based machines compared to ISA and PCI based ones. I vividly remember working at 3M as a contractor technician in one of the research divisions at the time. One of the research fellows decided he needed a top end machine to explore imaging technology for something. We dropped a cool $15,000 on an IBM box that I thought was nothing more than a souped up PC. Heck, real workstations from IBM, Sun, DEC, and HP were available for that kind of money!

Just for the heck of it, I priced out a roughly equivalent PCI based clone. I couldn't quite reach the kind of performance numbers of that IBM MCA box, but I could get 80+ percent of the performance for less than half price. I didn't tell anyone, but someone else must have run the same exercise. That was the last IBM MCA machine that lab bought.

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[justncase80]

This has been Apples problem all along as well. This is why windows kicked Apples ass sooo long ago and is still kicking its ass and will continue to kick its ass. The fact that windows will run on any x86 machine is why windows was successful and why macintosh crapped the bed. It's all about enabling your customers, if you can enable them to do more at a reasonable price then expect to be a millionaire. If you attempt to sell them something that disables them then forget about it. DRM? OSX forced to run only on apple hardware? The worst business ideas of all time.

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[Grand High Wonko]

(Apologies to Gary Larson)
What you say:

I don't know who's truly at the helm at SONY, but it's almost as if they've intentionally dug this hole, about six feet deep. I long ago eBay'ed and divested myself of all SONY equipment (still have SONY music CDs, sorry... ) and swore that, until SONY plays a little more nice, I'll never buy, recommend, anything SONY again.

What Sony hears:

blah blah blah SONY, blah blah blah, blah blah. Blah blah blah SONY blah (blah SONY blah, blah...) blah, blah SONY blah blah, blah, blah, blah SONY blah.

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[Jasin Natael]

Wow. Sounds like you got a real shyster at the Sony Store. I don't know what's worse -- getting a customer service rep who is hostile to the customer and supported by his company, or getting a rep who tries so hard to help and is shut down by the evil empire at every turn. Either way, it's Sony. I've had similar experiences with various companies in Beijing (maybe it's just the prevailing attitude), but the results seem to depend entirely on the company: when the company has no respect for the customer, what can their employees really do about it?

Buy Chinese, and be picky. There are a lot of low-quality products in the market, but if the manufacturers that make good, quality products can make enough money to be a recognizable, competitive, popular brand in the rest of the world... It helps everyone and at the same time it puts another nail in Sony's coffin.

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[Asphalt]

Yeah, that's what I look for in a console. Not fun...seriousness.

My copy of "Depressed, Drunk, and Alone" is supposed to arrive on Thursday. They added the cool new 'Suicide' feature.

Can't wait to get my hands on that thing.

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[neumayr]

It costs MS money to sell one to me

Does not. While they might initially sell the XBox at a loss, don't forget it's still good for business as it increases the total revenue. Also there are the n-consoles-sold bragging rights, which translate to more games, and thus to more income.

[...]most of the space on games nowdays is used to store pre-rendered cinematics.. now that we can render that all in real time, well, you do the math[...]

Don't worry, they'll find a way to fill those discs. Textures probably...

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[apoc06]

"Remember, no matter what you are talking about ALWAYS bring up the Sony Rootkit."

LOVE the sig!!!

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[apoc06]

the reason that the harddrive is mandatory is so that it can be used to cache data. they cant rely on a 2x blu-ray drive without some form of caching.

take it with a grain of salt obviously, but sony has /shown/ that as long as the game uses proper caching, loading times will be cut to under 2-3 seconds, and thats for compressed 1080p content.

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[silentbobdp]

God Of War was developed in-house at Sony Santa Monica under the watch of David Jaffe, who also did Twisted Metal 1, 2, and Twisted Metal Black.

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[kackle]

I've never been a video game fan,

This person has apparently stumbled onto Slashdot by mistake.

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[SillyNickName4me]

One of the research fellows decided he needed a top end machine to explore imaging technology for something. We dropped a cool $15,000 on an IBM box that I thought was nothing more than a souped up PC. Heck, real workstations from IBM, Sun, DEC, and HP were available for that kind of money!

Judging from the next part of your post, and the price indication, it sounds like you ended up buying a model 9590 (desktop) or a 9595 (deskside), which are both 'pc compatible' from a software point of view, but are not like a pc in how they were built. Besides the better performance that you could get from them, their main argument is that they could grow with your requirements.

An interesting detail of the xx90 and xx95 machines is that the cpu, memory controller and dma controller and mca were integrated onto what was called the processor complex. This was an easy to replace module. The consequence of this setup was that upgrading the processor complex also got you an appropriately faster memory and dma controller, at times with new functionality also. The old 8595 that I have went from a 20mhz 32bit mca bus with 24bit addressing for dma to a 50mhz bus with 32bit addressing and 64bit 'streaming' data transfer for dma with cards that supported that (besides going from its initial 486dx to a p200)

Another interesting thing is that from the start those machines did interleaved access to memory, effectively allowing 64bit or double rate 32bit memory access.

So yeah, for all practical purposes you bought an x86 based workstation, not a pc.

At any rate... there was a small group of people that needed such machines for desktop use (many more wanted them for server use) but overall this idea didn't work out well in the rapdily changing pc world. Actually, the whole concept of the traditional workstation seems outdated by now, and for most purposes it was once the 686 class cpus started becomming available, and x86 smp machines became a practical idea. That incidentely also spelled the end of line for the 9595 (which had been renamed to pc server 500 or something like that by then). The 9590 and other 'desktop' mca machines had dissapeared before that already.

Just for the heck of it, I priced out a roughly equivalent PCI based clone. I couldn't quite reach the kind of performance numbers of that IBM MCA box, but I could get 80+ percent of the performance for less than half price. I didn't tell anyone, but someone else must have run the same exercise. That was the last IBM MCA machine that lab bought.

And that was indeed the real problem. Yes, the machine can be a bit faster, and would likely outlast any clone that was relevant at the time due to its upgradability.. but in the end that idea only worked well for servers, for a desktop it was simply easier to buy a new one once the current one becomes outdated (not cheaper on the long term maybe, but definitely a lot cheaper on the short term)

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[Anonymous Coward]

You needed to post that?!

Don't mind me, just contributing a bit more to the noise in the snr.

This post brought to you by the captcha "retard" (sic) (seriously)

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[Amadeus0]

Only now is sony losing it's fooding in the pro video market with the digital standard set up by JVC called MiniDV and DVCAM. Which is robust enough to handle the HD signals on the new HD camera systems.

MiniDV and DVCAM were NOT invented by JVC. In fact DVCAM is a SONY format. Also MiniDV isn't very robust (as far as professionals go), and isn't really used in Pro circles for HD. That said MiniDV has been doing well (for SD and HD) in the prosumer/consumer/low-end pro market, basically replacing VHS/SVHS/three-quarter inch, and what-not in those segments. As for true HD tape formats, the best game in town (and not very expensive at that) is Sony. HDCAM is a MUCH better format then DVCPROHD100, and NOTHING comes close to HDCAM SR. I don't like Sony (at least their consumer market stuff, Rootkits, so on and so forth), but in the pro-arena Sony really still has the tape format(s) in their backpocket. AmadeusZ.-

Re:it's been ongoing for a while

[Lumpy]

if you read the ENTIRE post you will notice I mention DVCAM which is what the pro's use for Tv shows but 90% of all commercials you see on tv that are not recorded on 35mm Film are recorded on MiniDV and on cheap cameras like the XL2 or panasonic DVX100.

I know I worked in the TV commercial biz for 7 years and almost 80% of all tapes were miniDV with a 10% DVCAM and 10% BetaSP that came in from outside sources. (WE shot on DigiBeta)

Playstation 3 Will Be Awesome

[repruhsent]

Remember the Sony Music rootkit fiasco last year? They were really installing a rootkit so they could hide their killer app - Playstation@Home, a distributed computer for running video games.

Article Summary

[American AC in Paris]

For those of you who can't be bothered to read TFA, here's a quick summary:

Sony isn't going to win this round 'cuz they're too high off their own success to see the writing on the wall. How stupid are they? I mean, are they total morons? Could they possibly be any dumber? I mean, really--Sony is sooooo stupid!

For some reason, it took the author two pages to get this point across.

Re:Article Summary

[Anonymous Coward]

Umm. Doesn't the title get that point across for you? With the two page article existing to give examples of why..

Re:Article Summary

[moochfish]

For those of you who can't be bothered to read TFA...

Unless their server can pick up its own pieces and reboot, that would be all of us.

Re:Article Summary

[sbrown123]

I can summarize it even more: the author felt that Sony was doomed due to its arrogance. So what? Apple is snobbish and arrogant as hell but people buy their products by the truck loads. Microsoft doesn't give a crap about their customers and they are still own the operating system market. So what if he didn't get to play with a PS3 at E3. Get over it! There were plenty of other demos by various companies there and to cry over the lack of a playable PS3 is just childish.

Re:Article Summary

[Midnight Thunder]

So what if he didn't get to play with a PS3 at E3. Get over it! There were plenty of other demos by various companies there and to cry over the lack of a playable PS3 is just childish.

From what I hear he should of had plenty of a chance, since most people seemed to be checking out the Wii.

Re:Article Summary

[XenoRyet]

I can attest to that. I went on Friday. PS3 was plenty playable, it's just that no one really wanted to. There was no wait to get your hands on any of the PS3 demos. Meanwhile, as you mentioned, the line for the Wii wrapped around the entire west hall.

Re:Article Summary

[bahwi]

Actually, it sounds to me that the author was just bitter he didn't get to play with the PS3 much.

"None of us had the chance to seriously evaluate PS3 and the experience it has to offer."

Not that that is a good sign about the PS3, but the early adopters of the PS3 have already decided to buy or not, and, if sony wants to tell the other media people to go rot in hell, they're free to. It won't affect sales more than a few units, probably units that aren't at market yet due to shortages.

Re:Article Summary

[noidentity]

"mossession::store failed
DB function failed with error number 1062
Duplicate entry '1-' for key 2 SQL=INSERT INTO mos_session (
`session_id`,`time`,`username`,`gid`,`guest` ) VALUES (
'10e6e91474e38de35bae387c66aa679f','1147725406','' ,'0','1' )"

Reloading the URL generates the same error message but with a different 128-bit random ID. My God, every possible 128-bit key has been Slashdotted!

Re:Article Summary

[BigCheese]

All the Coral Cache has is the database error.

Re:Article Summary

[Technician]

Microsoft doesn't give a crap about their customers and they are still own the operating system market.

Have you noticed any trend in their market share? Remember Apple going out of business? Remember them killing Netscape? Checked Mozilla's Firefox lately? Seen any uptake in open document standards? They may own the OS market, but it is leaking badly.

Re:Article Summary

[sbrown123]

I think Microsoft's losses in certain segments is not due to its handling of customers but rather being beaten by better technology.

Re:Article Summary

[Anonymous Coward]

"Apple is snobbish and arrogant as hell but people buy their products by the truck loads."

Maybe.. But in Apple's defence, they do create pretty good products. I don't think Apple are arrogant or snobbish, they have a particular take on the market and that hasn't really wavered since the early 80's. The difference now is that they have unwittingly (or wittingly!) invaded the consumer space in a much larger fashion than anyone expected. You have to hand it to them, they can take an idea that no one else knows what to do with, and do it properly.

I think Sony's problem is that they may have missed the boat in many respects - Mp3 players, consoles, digital video etc etc. Microsoft understood the importance of getting to market first, at a price that was competitive and acceptable (to a degree) in round 37 of the ridiculous console wars.

Yeah, sure.

[Anonymous Coward]

A corporation is doomed because their arrogant atitude upsets some geeks. You know, because that's going to cause millions and millions of kids and their moms around the world to decide not to buy a PS3.

Poor Sony, we hardly knew ye.

Re:Yeah, sure.

[Gothic_Walrus]

The $600 price tag and the $60 games, on the other hand, might just cause those "millions and millions of kids and their moms around the world to decide not to buy a PS3."

Honestly, if you had the choice between the PS3, Xbox 360, and Wii for your kids...well, I sure as hell wouldn't choose the one that costs more than the other two combined.

Re:Yeah, sure.

[Anonymous Coward]

I would imagine the $600 price tag for a non-crippled PS3 and the apparent lack of any particular reason to buy it (graphics comparable to the 360 at E3) would have more of an effect.

Re:Yeah, sure.

[Anonymous Coward]

Which one is that? The Wii could be $200, $250, $300, $25, $15,000... nobody knows yet.

Re:Yeah, sure.

[Moqui]

Assuming a $15k price tag on the Wii, I would purchase it if the VR/sensory Manga expansion was included in the base package. Granted, no one who came to visit would be allowed to see it though!

Re:Yeah, sure.

[enitime]

"Honestly, if you had the choice between the PS3, Xbox 360, and Wii for your kids...well, I sure as hell wouldn't choose the one that costs more than the other two combined." Parents will choose whatever completes this sentence in their household: "But mooo-ooom! I WANT a !"

Re:Yeah, sure.

[tukkayoot]

Not to mention the fact there don't appear to be any games in development for the PS3 that will be able to claim an "E" rating from the ESRB (except maybe that EyeToy card battle game).

The PS3 seems exclusively targeted at adult gamers (and overwhelming targeted at a subset of adult gamers: young males). To hell with kids, parents, women, families and non/casual gamers.

Re:Yeah, sure.

[monopole]

But at $600 hardcore fanboys are the primary market.
On the other hand the "Family friendly" and "Female friendly" market is with Nintendo. And the $200 pricetag is a lot more "Family friendly" as well.

Re:Yeah, sure.

['nother poster]

For a limited subset of parents. I'm not getting my kids any console if it's over $250 U.S. None. I don't care if they are the only kids on the block without one, or all, of the new consoles. Yes, I'm not like most parents. Being a whiny bitch isn't going to get them a damn thing simply to shut them up. If they want a PS3, they are going to earn the cash themselves. At 11 and 13 that could take a while.

Re:Yeah, sure.

[KDR_11k]

No, the Wii was announced to cost "less than 300$". Since you can get an XC Core for 300$ that would add up to less than 600$.

Re:Yeah, sure.

[KDR_11k]

I don't know what kind of family you grew up in but my parents would never have bought me anything that expensive. Hell, 200$ was already stretching it for a birthday present and took a BIG deal of convincing.

Re:Yeah, sure.

[NonSequor]

What percentage of parents are willing and able to spend $600 (or even $500) on a single Christmas present?

Re:Yeah, sure.

[ebyrob]

Hell, 200$ was already stretching it for a birthday present and took a BIG deal of convincing.

Ya, but in 1984, $200 was worth about $400 today.

Re:Yeah, sure.

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't forget Nintendo's "games should be fun, not hours of hard work" crowd. You know, those of us with six figure salaries who play games to relax, not to procrastinate on homework.

Re:Yeah, sure.

[Anonymous Coward]

Sony banked on that market for the PSP, and it hasn't turned out well for them. They've managed to do OK at best. PS2 had a strong line-up over a broad range of consumers - it's mass-market appeal gave it an advantage when courting developers. I don't think Sony will have the same success with the Bently of game consoles. There is a lot of benefit to having large marketshare in this industry.

Re:Yeah, sure.

[DragonWriter]

No, at $600 people with lots of money to blow entertaining themselves and/or their children who buy based on brand identity are the primary market (giving the increasing concentration of wealth and decreasing real income across most of the spectrum in the US, it arguably makes some sense to aim higher in price point with luxury products.)

Re:Yeah, sure.

[DragonWriter]

Hell, 200$ was already stretching it for a birthday present and took a BIG deal of convincing.

Well, same here, but for certain points in my childhood, $600 now is about equivalent to $200 then, anyhow.

Inflation, you know.

Re:Yeah, sure.

[DrXym]

That depends if there is a pent up demand for a blu-ray player and a multi-media jukebox and games console and email / chat / web station, costing the price that a blu-ray player would cost on its own.

Re:Yeah, sure.

[monopole]

Ok, the gaming junkies and the luxury market.
Sounds like the PSP to me. Really slick package, high price, even a new video format. But Nintendo has beaten them out with a reasonably priced but innovative competitor. And the video format is DOA.

Re:Yeah, sure.

[Anonymous Coward]

Man, theres only 12 of us.

Re:Yeah, sure.

[Orthodork]

It's not just $600, either-- there's games that have to be bought-- another $150-$200 for four or so to "get started"; and since it will likely still be "bundles" sold at Christmas, you likely won't get one of these for less than $800-$900.

Re:Yeah, sure.

[daggre]

I AM a Sony fanboy - I love my PSP - and although I was planning on it originally I won't be buying a PS3. I got a 360 and I'll get a Wii if it's under $200 but the PS3 didn't really impress me. Certainly not enough to spend $600 + extended warranty (I went through FIVE PS2's over the years because they kept breaking - if the PS3 comes with a 90 day warranty that's a huge red flag btw) + tax + 1 game + 1 extra controller and it's going to cost at LEAST $800 - that's just way too much. And I don't buy their statements about the Internet play being free. They'll either offload everything to 3rd party servers like they did with the PS2 or they'll have their own servers which will cost them enough that they'll start charging for it (especially when you factor in tech support). I do have an HDMI TV too, and yes I do want hi-res movies but I can't help thinking that every movie studio that produces a movie on BluRay is putting money into Sony (a competitor in the movie industry) vs. HD-DVD where the money goes to Toshiba (not a competitor). When you remember that they can manufacture HD-DVD disks for under one dollar, I just don't see how Blu-Ray can win this one (even though the storage capacity is really good). I also will believe it when I see it about BluRay disks resisting scratches. If I can take a key to a BluRay disk and not be able to scratch it maybe then I'll buy in to that format. But again, I love my PSP :)

Re:Yeah, sure.

[bufalo_1973]

Then think about what will happen in Europe were they will turn $1 into 1€ (600€ = $768).

Re:Yeah, sure.

[Anonymous Coward]

The XBox 360 core package is a pretty rubbish purchase, considering backwards compatibility goes out the windows.

It's pretty silly, also, to do your math on the basis of figuring that someone contemplating their possible purchases would consider the cheapest possible XBox, and compare it to the most expensive possible Playstation 3.

Re:Yeah, sure.

[Anonymous Coward]

Ya, but in 1984, $200 was worth about $400 today.

$600 now is about equivalent to $200 then, anyhow.

I knew inflation was bad in the US, but this is ridiculous.... thank you very much, I'll be here all week

Re:Yeah, sure.

[HermanAB]

Well, considering that the US $ has devalued by about 50% over the last year, it is really only only $300...*Duck!*...

Re:Yeah, sure.

[nugneant]

But why would they bother playing games at all when they have such cheery, personable, loving parents to spend time with?

Re:Yeah, sure.

[KDR_11k]

Well, yes, but in a realistic scenario you'd pick up one console and a bunch of games instead of two barebones consoles so any such speculation is just emphasizing the price difference, not provide any actual plans.

Re:Yeah, sure.

[KDR_11k]

Yes, except we're talking about 2002 (the console was a Gamecube). The SNES I got when money was worth more ran me the equivalent of 150$ and that required scraping together the money from all relatives on christmas. Fortunately it already came with a game (and the Super Gameboy) back then.

Re:Yeah, sure.

[KDR_11k]

I've tried an inflation calculator and it came up with ~220$. Wasn't too long ago.

Re:Yeah, sure.

['nother poster]

Because I make them. How else do you think I'm going to farm 50,000 gold on WoW?

Sony equipment is great...

[192939495969798999]

provided it's at least 10 years old. The newer stuff just doesn't stand out from the fray very well, especially stereo-wise, since high-end companies are offering entry level equipment at prices competitive with practically any component system, even Sony.

Re:Sony equipment is great...

[pembo13]

How true that is. Ny father had a Sony televsion which was older (or as old) as me. About 8 years ago we got a newer, larger tv, so we went with Sony. Less than 2 years down the road, it started to misbehave. Sad.

Re:Sony equipment is great...

[dal20402]

The newer stuff just doesn't stand out from the fray very well, especially stereo-wise, since high-end companies are offering entry level equipment at prices competitive with practically any component system, even Sony.

For the most part I agree completely... especially since most Sony components are not nearly as good now as they were in the '90s.

There is an exception, though, and it's what keeps me from going totally Sony-free after the r00tk1t episode. Their S-Master Pro digital amplifiers in the higher-end ES receivers (I have the 5000ES, which was replaced by the linked model) are genuinely terrific when playing digital sources. Astonishing imaging, cool and light, and enough power. To my ears the S-Master Pros don't just compete with the big boys' "budget" stuff -- they compete with high-end products costing several times what they do.

Of course, that just means someone at Sony screwed up. I'm sure the next model will be the usual crap... better buy another 7100ES now, before they rectify the oversight. :p

Re:Sony equipment is great...

[BigCheese]

Not just phones. I've got a cordless Sony phone that's over 10 years old. The thing is a tank. Now, a friend of mine she got a cordless Sony phone a couple of years ago and it died completely last year.
I hear the same story over and over. Old Sony == Quality, Current Sony == Crap.

I'm not getting a PS3. Not because of the price. It's because they can't make good hardware anymore.

Re:Sony equipment is great...

[Anonymous Coward]

oh so right you are! I remember my 32" sony trinitron being the snazziest piece of visual electro-hardware that i've ever encountered! jeez louis!

Re:Sony equipment is great...

[Anonymous Coward]

they still make one of the best professional headphones on the market: the mdr-7506s.

Well...yeah.

[Gothic_Walrus]

Honestly, they're asking for a lot with the PS3. $600 for a console is too much, and most of the people I know could honestly care about the additional features. It can play blu-ray? Great...except I can't afford a TV that the movies will look good on, and I'm not too keen on replacing my (perfectly fine) DVD collection this soon.

Unfortunately, they seem to be banking on the fact that people will think the PS3 is better and they'll dish out the extra money for it. Guess what? It's not. Sony isn't what it once was - Microsoft and Nintendo give it valid competition, and it's looking more and more like the Walkman-created giant is toppling.

It's nice to see that history hasn't taught them that the "We're the best, so people will like us no matter what!" attitude doesn't work too well.

Re:Well...yeah.

[Total_Wimp]

It can play blu-ray? Great...except I can't afford a TV that the movies will look good on, and I'm not too keen on replacing my (perfectly fine) DVD collection this

This is a perfectly valid argument for 2006, but what about 2008? When HDTV hits critical mass, the choices of pre-recorded medial are either HD-DVD or Blu-Ray. Period. If Blu-Ray becomes VHS and HD-DVD becomes Beta (we'll see) then the PS3 is going to have a very nice selling point over the competition, especially if the price of stand-alone Blu-Ray players hovers around $200 or more.

If you look at things past today, as console makers are always forced to do with brand new boxes, then the PS3 will have more value through the lifespan of the product. That's not always engough to guarantee success, but it certainly helps.

TW

Re:Well...yeah.

[AuMatar]

2008 is still to early. TVs last a decade, sometimes more. The early adapter market is over, HD is now only being bought by people replacing their primary TVs (remember, many game machines are used on 2ndary TVs- kids bedrooms and the like). Some of those people still opt for non-HD, as its cheaper. Given the low penetration today, I wouldn't expect significant penetration until at least 2010.

And even if 2008 was the watershed, its still too late. If PS3 is in 3rd after 2 years, you'll see most 3rd party devs dropping it for xbox and wii. Much like how Japanese devs dropped xbox and american ones dropped gamecube. If PS3 doesn't get significant penetration in the first year or so, its lost this round of the console wars, and gets to try again in 2011 or so.

Re:Well...yeah.

[ericspinder]

If Blu-Ray becomes VHS and HD-DVD becomes Beta (we'll see) then the PS3 is going to have a very nice selling point over the competition, especially if the price of stand-alone Blu-Ray players hovers around $200 or more.

Blu-Ray is Sony and it's more likely to be the Beta than the VHS as Sony has a long history crippling innovative ideas by holding to tightly to intellecual property.

Now they are trying use the success of PlayStation to push this format into consumer homes. Unfortunately it cripples the unit on price and is currently unneeded. Need drives adaption, not neat.

Re:Well...yeah.

[The-Bus]

If anyone can get away for charging a premium on their hardware, it's Sony. When we look at their other consumer lines, it's not so out of place.

Their consumer TVs? Circuit City right now has several 32" conventional TVs to choose from. At the low-end you have a Sylvania for $340. Other brands, like Sharp, Magnavox, Phillips and RCA, command up to $499. The Sony TV? $649.

What about MP3 players? Sony has their bean-shaped Walkman players (1GB) available for $120-$160 depending on features. Compare that to an iPod shuffle for $100 or an iPod Nano for $140.

Sony has, through a combination of marketing and engineering, managed to convince a lot of people that their products are of a certain quality and demand a premium. It doesn't mean their worth the extra price, it just means people are convinced (In the same way that Mercedes-Benz, Starbucks, Bose, and Banana Republic customers are convinced).

Outside of consoles, paying 50% to 200% more for something with Sony in the title is commonplace. So I can see how they can continue to expect that. Whether consumers will follow suit is another story completely. I'm thoroughly convinced that if the PS3 launched at $899 with LuminesBlu and Ridge Racer 7, they would sell out of their initial 3 million in shipments. Whether they reach 100 million in shipments again is an entirely different matter.

Re:Well...yeah.

[Derekloffin]

Honestly, they're asking for a lot with the PS3. $600 for a console is too much, and most of the people I know could honestly care about the additional features. It can play blu-ray? Great...except I can't afford a TV that the movies will look good on, and I'm not too keen on replacing my (perfectly fine) DVD collection this soon. I'm a bit confused by people who say things like this. If you don't have a TV that can utilize it than why are you burning $100 to get the extra function that you can't use anyway? Beyond that, I don't see any contract anywhere that says you have to replace your DVDs. Did I miss the memo?

Re:Well...yeah.

[masklinn]

This is a perfectly valid argument for 2006, but what about 2008? When HDTV hits critical mass, the choices of pre-recorded medial are either HD-DVD or Blu-Ray. Period. If Blu-Ray becomes VHS and HD-DVD becomes Beta (we'll see) then the PS3 is going to have a very nice selling point over the competition, especially if the price of stand-alone Blu-Ray players hovers around $200 or more.

By 2008, the PS3 will be dead and (if the Blu-Ray wins the current format war) the price of Blu-Ray readers will have dropped drastically to $100 bucks or so for entry point. Unless Sony pulls some shit on license prices and agreements in which case it'll kill the Blu-Ray as well.

Re:Well...yeah.

[Jason Earl]

You are assuming that HDTV is going to hit critical mass by 2008. You are also assuming that HD-DVD or Blu-Ray will become the preferred medium for movies in the next few years. Heck, it's far from certain that Blu-Ray won't become the next Betamax.

The fact of the matter is that Sony is using the PS3 in an attempt to drive the market towards HDTV and Blu-Ray because Sony sells HDTV sets and owns the Blu-Ray format. Worse, Sony is apparently willing to gamble its lead in the ridiculously profitable gaming industry on the off chance that it helps it maintain an edge in the electronics market where margins are razor thin.

Sure, the PS3 might be a value to consumers that already have a HDTV and $600 burning a hole in their pocket, and who happen to be looking for a gaming console combined with a Blu-Ray player, but that's a ridiculously small segment of the community compared to folks that simply want to play some games on an existing "normal" TV set, and are willing to spend $300-$400 on new hardware. While the PS3 might sound like a better deal when transported to a mythical HDTV/Blu-Ray future, the PS3 has to compete with the XBox360 and the Nintendo Wii today in a world where HDTVs are relatively rare and where no Blu-Ray content is available.

If the PS3 doesn't sell in today's marketplace then developers won't support it, and the PS3 will find a place in the gaming history books with the NeoGeo and the 3DO.

Re:Well...yeah.

[mungtor]

$600 is too much for a console? Says who? It's not too much for a PC-gaming rig by a long shot, so why is it suddenly too much for a console?

Sony is, get ready, charging you what the technology costs. How much does Microsoft subsididze your purchase of an Xbox? $150 or so? Which would put the cost of a 360 where exactly in comparison to a PS3? Compare the actual costs of the hardware without Microsoft dumping the Xbox specfically to hurt Sony and things are a lot closer. And for each one of you that buys an Xbox, just wait until you have not choice again... it will become the IE of consoles and hardware specific gaming consoles aren't the kind of thing that get put together with no capital in somebody's spare time.

And it isn't like Sony is even that great of a company (their products generally work, but their tech support sucks), but the price is completely reasonable in light of what you are getting. And when game development catches up so you can create and ad-hoc network of the PS3s in your house to play Gran Turismo 5 multiplayer you'll stop complaining.

Re:Well...yeah.

[Cadallin]

It's even worse than that: the bulk of HDTVs now being sold are still going to early adopters, who are now UPGRADING their old HDTVs to new models, the majority of non-early adopter purchases are STILL SDTVs.

Re:Well...yeah.

[Pleb'a.nz]

HDTV and Blu-Ray remind me of NTSC and PAL.. so what.. a few years later there will be dual format TV's/Players/Recorders. PAL and NTSC are both difference standards with different resolutions and encodings as well. I'd love to know what the hoo-haa is all about crying about HDTV and Blu-Ray being "mostly adopted", even if it was 50/50, that would reflect NTSC and PAL formats how they are today.

Re:Well...yeah.

[drinkypoo]

It's nice to see that history hasn't taught them that the "We're the best, so people will like us no matter what!" attitude doesn't work too well.

One of the basic tenets of business is that the quickest way to go from the #1 spot to the #2 spot is to act like you're #1. The best way to stay in the #1 spot is to keep acting like you're #2, always driving to improve your products and your methods of business.

Sony clearly does not have a handle on this principle.

Re:Well...yeah.

[D3m3rz3l]

No they are not. According to various industry analysts, the PS3 might cost upto $900 to build.

Re:Well...yeah.

[GalacticCmdr]

This is a perfectly valid argument for 2006, but what about 2008? When HDTV hits critical mass, the choices of pre-recorded medial are either HD-DVD or Blu-Ray. Period. If Blu-Ray becomes VHS and HD-DVD becomes Beta (we'll see) then the PS3 is going to have a very nice selling point over the competition, especially if the price of stand-alone Blu-Ray players hovers around $200 or more.

HDTV has been just on the horizon of hitting "critical mass" for years - and this is no different. 2008 will no more be the "Magical Year" for HDTV than it will be for Linux on the Desktop.

Re:Well...yeah.

[dynamo]

MOD-UP.
i agree.

Re:Well...yeah.

[ceoyoyo]

NTSC and PAL are analog video formats that are used in different parts of the world. I've never seen a device that could handle both. If you live in Europe you get a PAL device, if you live in North America you get an NTSC one. Note that DVDs are NOT NTSC or PAL -- they're digitally encoded video that one of your display devices (usually your DVD player) converts to one or the other.

A better comparison would be to DVD-R/DVD+R. In that case it costs so little to support both that most drive manufacturers just do now. I suspect Blu-Ray and HD-DVD are different though -- wholly incompatible formats where a player to support both will cost a significant fraction of the cost of two players, one of each. In that case, the nearest comparison would be to... VHS and BETAMAX.

Re:Well...yeah.

[NATIK]

Blu-ray/HDTV has nothing at all to do with PAL and NTSC. Blu-ray is a HD media and HDTV is just HD quality on your tv, these to dont compete, blu-ray actually depend on HDTV in some ways (to make it a more viable product). PAL and NTSC is 2 ways to do the same thing, 2 competing products or methods, so its like comparing apples to oranges.

Re:Well...yeah.

[SillyNickName4me]

And $400 for a video card isn't?

I just bought a new card for around $50.. No, its not the best performer out there, but it works well enough with all modern games that they are nicely playable. In a year or 2 I'll get me a new one.. total expense over 5 years.. 2 1/2 * $50.. which doesn't come close to what you suggest spending on one card.

Ah.. you were talking about a hardcore gamer who does spend $400+ on a graphics card? those same people won't have a problem spending $600 on a console either if the games are convincing enough.

Re:Well...yeah.

[im_thatoneguy]

Even those of us with HDTVs don't want to fork over an extra 200 bucks for the PS3.

Ok... so ummm... I guess I get Blu-ray for 200 bucks. That would be dandy, if I wanted a Blu-ray player, which I don't, I want an HD-DVD player so that 200 bucks isn't a saving, it's large dead weight.

The graphics don't look any better on the PS3. Games are going the way of multi-platform, so there's a good chance except for MGS4 and final fantasy I'm going to get all the same games, at just about the same level of immersion for half the price.

Why do I want HD-DVD instead of Blu-ray? Because it's cheaper. Plain and simple. It is cheaper, it will always be cheaper, and it is "good enough". If you look at an HD-DVD demo, the quality is good enough. It's 1080, it's half the cost, and my TV can't look any better. That's the "value" sony keeps trying to promote, and it's not tied into a proprietary expensive system.

Re:Well...yeah.

[nschubach]

If there's one thing I've noticed with the "gaming market" is this. When you make something inexpensive or free, you attract a rather unsavory gamer. This is usually the kid with ADD who's parent's are sick of buying them the latest and greatest, or you get the crowd of people that don't put forth the effort to make something of themselves in life. This is the type of person that expects everything to be free. They want the world to revolve around them. I don't care to communicate with this crowd. I played in several Betas for games, Guildwars, and several games that were free. These attract the type of people I can't stand. As much as I hate it...I think I like the fact that the PS3 is more expensive. It will keep the brats away longer and I can enjoy my game without "l33t h4xx0r" users fudding my enjoyment.

Re:Well...yeah.

[JanneM]

This is a perfectly valid argument for 2006, but what about 2008? When HDTV hits critical mass, the choices of pre-recorded medial are either HD-DVD or Blu-Ray. Period.

No. First, you'll have DVDs being sold along whatever new format for years to come. Second, with a HDTV set, DVD:s look great - much better than on old sets. You don't have the same enourmous quality gap between DVD and the high-res formats that you had with VHS versus DVD, so there won't be the same great push to replace already owned DVDs with the new format.

If Blu-ray is an argument, then it's an argument to wait with buying the PS3 until you have a HDTV set, you know that blu-ray, not hd-dvd, is the player to own, and you're ready to start buying blu-ray movies rather than DVDs.

And if you're saying that HDTV will start to become common around 2008-2009, and that we by that time will know which format (if either) will actually come out on top, then it's already time for the next generation consoles to start making an appearance, in which case it probably makes sense to skip the PS3 altogether.

Re:Well...yeah.

[Pleb'a.nz]

"NTSC and PAL are analog video formats that are used in different parts of the world. I've never seen a device that could handle both."

Do you not play with your TV/Video/DVD player when you buy them new to see what they can do ? Every TV for the last 5 years (at least) can handle auto-switching between formats.

Re:Well...yeah.

[BigCheese]

I wish I had some mod points left. You hit it right on the head.

Re:Well...yeah.

[RemovableBait]

Well, I don't know about the US market, but here in the UK the primary buyers of video games and consoles are teenagers and young (20s) males.

There is little chance that the parents of those 13-18 year olds are going to shell out £500 for a games console. Once you add games at £50 (yes, that's the selling price of a 360 game here)... an extra controller at £30... an online gaming subscription at £40... etc, this becomes a very expensive toy. And, no matter how fantastic the technology is, it's still a games console.

I don't think your gaming rig comparison works, as the perceived "normal" price of a computer is in the region of £800-1000. Parents would also see a computer as more useful than a games console, they may also see themselves getting some use out of it. AND... if you buy 3 games in the first year (a conservative estimate), an extra controller and an online gaming sub, your cost is £720. Very close to the cost of a computer, for a fraction of the functionality.

Now, as someone has already said, Sony are heavily subsidising the PS3... by up to $300. Historically, the only company that has ever made a profit on their consoles from day one is Nintendo. The technology in the 360 and the PS3 is similar when applied to games, to the point where many people do not consider there to be a noticeably big difference in graphic quality.

I have no idea where the 'IE' of games consoles come from, but with the three companies in similar positions (each have proprietary formats for games, proprietary controllers, proprietary connectors, proprietary everything), this could conceivably occur with all three of them. Hardware and software lock-in occurs with any games console, as only Xbox peripherals and games will work with Xbox.. ditto Sony and Nintendo. The only manufacturer that 'could' lock their console to one brand of TV is Sony (as they are the only that manufactures TVs), but even they aren't that stupid.

I hate to say it, but if I had the cash to throw around to afford an "ad-hoc network of the PS3s in your house to play Gran Turismo 5 multiplayer" [yes, PS3s... plural], I'd be laughing.

Re:Well...yeah.

[blane.bramble]

I've never seen a device that could handle both

Both my TV and my (cheap) VCR can handle both NTSC and PAL - the VCR will translate NTSC to PAL (I'm in the UK) and the TV will accept an NTSC input, so I could plug in an NTSC device.

Re:Well...yeah.

[Tatsh]

I have an HDTV, and it's Component input (2 of them). I'm not buying a new TV just for some HDMI port that tramples upon my rights. And the PS3 is not going to be outputting HDTV any other way.

What is a business to do? A guy who owns an HDTV with component input (let's say like me) at a store gets offered a new HDTV with HDMI ports ready-to-go all-digital like DVI, and unlike component which is still analog and requires the TV to figure out the positioning. It's bullshit to have to get a new TV just for HD when many of us have already bought "HDTVs". The people that made HDMI, HDCP, and any Macrovision protection are the REAL criminals. It's like totalarianism. And for WHAT? Crappy movies and music?

Re:Well...yeah.

[DragonWriter]

First, you'll have DVDs being sold along whatever new format for years to come.

Maybe, maybe not. One of the big things driving next-generation DVD is copy control -- a "feature" that appeals to studios more than end-users -- I can see them pushing a next-gen standard, hard, by releasing on it substantially before standard DVD release, which would create additional demand for next-generation players.

Re:Well...yeah.

[Chosen Reject]

I don't see any contract anywhere that says you have to replace your DVDs. Did I miss the memo?

Yes, the MPAA and RIAA are currently lobbying congress to pass a law that would make it illegal to own a copyrighted work on an outdated format.

The really sad thing is that I wouldn't be surprised if they've had that thought. /shudders

Re:Well...yeah.

[DianeOfTheMoon]

Not only that, but after factoring in 3 years of a Gold Subscription, you get the PS3, with wireless, three times the harddisk space and HDMI for your Blu-Ray drive for about the same price as a premium xbox bundle. Now, I know some people (don't know who, though) are really happy with their Core system, and don't want to play anyone online. However, if you do and want all the bells and whistles, the Playstation 3 actually is a better bargain than the 360. Just think about that for a moment...

Re:Well...yeah.

[JanneM]

If you are right then it makes no sense at all to buy the PS3 for it's blu-ray player - or any blu-ray or hd-dvd media - until you're really sure that's the format that's going to win.

Re:Well...yeah.

[Fozzyuw]

I think the only thing the PS3 has going againts them is the price point. At $500-600 a pop, I do not see the PS3 getting the penetration that the PS2 had. There will be Playstation Fans who will buy it because they want any thing Playstation. I'm sort of that way with Nintendo. I've owned nothing but Nintendo consoles until I bought my PSP (well, it was a gift actually and I also would love to have a PS2 now. DDR and Guitar Hero makes it hard not to buy one).

If the PS3 does not get the penetration into household then game developers will not be as quick to make games for the PS3. Playstation has always been notorious for difficult programming. As producing a game can cost more than some major motion pictures, if Sony doesn't have the units in peoples houses, they're not going to be able to sell enough games to interest game companies to make games for your system.

It's always been the games that make a system what it is. The PSOne and PS2 became the number one gaming machine because they where capable of pumping out tons of games, good or bad... mostly bad. Same thing happened for the NES. Back in late 80's early 90's, if you made a NES game, you where going to make a huge profit, even if the game sucked (and many of them did, particularly near the end of it's life). Nintendo didn't even care at that time because of their near Monopoly and excessive licensing rates. They made lots of money without even lifting a finger.

That is one reason it killed Nintendo as SuperNES battled with Sega and N64 battled with PSOne. PSOne's licensing rates where lower lower and cheaper to produce games on.

That is why you notice now that GameCube doesn't have much for games or the classic franchises like Castlevania, Contra, etc. Nintendo doesn't have the market penetration. Even when RE4 came out for GC and proved the system could be used to make some of the best games around, games still are hard to find. No market penetration.

With Wii's lower (lowest?) price point and "gimics" (Emulation + joystick), and XBox 360's lower price point and already market penetration, Sony will loose a large market share. Will the the PS3 be killed? No, it will just be more of an 'elitiest' toy.

Re:Well...yeah.

[heinousjay]

So what you're saying is that if a person you don't like owns the same thing you own, your enjoyment of that thing is diminished?

I don't say this too often: you're a douchebag.

Re:Well...yeah.

[heinousjay]

I say 600 is too much, and I say this as the owner of a gaming laptop that was ridiculously expensive. My reasoning? I can do a shitload of stuff on this laptop, including my day job. I've made over 10 times the cost of the laptop back. The PS3, on the other hand, is a sunk cost. I will never make that money back. Why pay so much for a toy?

Re:Well...yeah.

[Anonymous Coward]

Blu-ray is nothing like Beta. All of the major electronics companies are behind Blu-ray except for Toshiba and NEC. It's not just Sony. It's Sony, Philips (who came up with the CD format originally), Pioneer, Matsushita (Panasonic), Hitachi, TDK and plenty of others. Toshiba and NEC are alone in the HD-DVD camp.

Sony does not control the Blu-ray Disc Association any more than the other major players do, so claiming that they cripple innovation or progress is ludicrous to say the least.

The fight will be costly, but it's pretty clear at this point that Blu-ray will win. What is not clear however is how long it'll take for Toshiba and NEC to give up and join the Blu-ray boat.

Re:Well...yeah.

[Chosen Reject]

Wrong. Sony is selling the PS3 for a loss. They've done that for a while. All three of the big players do it, though Nintendo only does it for maybe a couple of months at launch and at price drops.

But let's pretend that is true. Who would care that the PS3 costs as much to make as a 360? It's what's cheapest to the consumer that matters.

MS is not going to do to consoles what it did to the web browser market. MS got lucky to be the OS provider for all IBM machines. That gave them dominance in the OS market. They then tied all sorts of things to their OS, like IE, which gave IE its dominance. But they can't build the 360 into Windows and sell it bundled with every Dell. Also, Atari used to be the big player, then Nintendo, then Sony. Things change. This is entertainment. Changing your entertainment options is easier than switching 200+ employees from one application to another.

The price might be right considering the cost of the hardware. But that is subtly different than what is being sold, which is a video game console. Most people will buy it for that sole function. Everything else are just added features.

To illustrate, there are two groups of people, those who want a video game system and those who want High-definition products. These two groups have an overlap. Those are the people who will buy the PS3. Those who want a game system now and would rather wait for HD (for lots of valid reasons) will probably want something cheaper, and those who want only HD will not buy something that doesn't look right with the rest of their components, i.e., not the PS3.

By the time developers can get the ad-hoc network to do Gran Turismo 5 multiplayer, Sony will have lost the console fight.

Lastly, I have a > 4 yr old pc that plays Half-Life 2 just fine. So I see you're one of those people who think that buying a gaming PC has to cost you lots of money. Also, while you are happy to think that all the features the PS3 has are worth it for a game console, you fail to realize that PCs have far more features than the PS3 could hope to have.

Re:Well...yeah.

[staticneuron]

This is a wave of sentiment going over the internet that is rather quite short sighted. First of all it goes without saying that it is given that the PS3 will garner enough developer support which in turn will show people why they should get a PS3. Ok! Lets say you are not going to get an HDTV and you are never planning on getting one.If the PS3 devs can actually turn the theoretical 2 teraflops of information into actual reality then you wont even need an HDTV to see the difference. Right now to comparing games that are being showed "6 MONTHS" (not one is over 70% complete)before the system is released to games that are entering a consoles 2nd generationI can already see a difference.Also the fact that the final ps3 dev kits were shipped in march and the majority of game devs were working on a considerably weaker kit
to give you the "same" looking graphics as the 360 that you saw at E3.

Additionally I see it as a better thing to have the Blu ray built into the PS3 versions instead of an addon. Addons to a system doesn't get that much attention from game devs because they do not want to block out a major portion of the market.Unless it was an
absolute that most PS3 owners was going to buy a Blu ray addon, why
program for that in mind? Case in point the hard drive addon for the
Ps2..... exactly how much developer love did that get? That being
said, gamer will eventually care about the blu ray drives especially
if game developers would actually like to take advantage of the larger
space.
"From Software producer Masanori Takeuchi, who's been
working on Enchant Arm, a role-playing game slated to be an Xbox 360
launch title, said developers will also be running into issues of
storage space in the next generation. While the Xbox 360 is a
next-generation console, Microsoft decided to equip it with a normal
DVD reader rather than give it HD-DVD or Blu-ray reading
capabilities.
"The volume of data in Enchant Arms won't fit
into a single DVD. It's an RPG, so we're thinking it would be
inevitable that we release it on two discs," says Takeuchi. "But to
be honest, that's even looking grim."
http://www.gamespot.com/news/6132218.html

Re:Well...yeah.

[ceoyoyo]

Nope, I haven't. Of course I haven't bought a TV in the last five years either. I guess they got tired of making different TVs for different continents. Last time I tried was when somebody visiting from Europe taped a christening with their camcorder and wanted to leave a copy. Couldn't find a TV that would play it, nor would my ATI TV card copy it.

NTSC/PAL is more in the DVD+-R category now anyway. BD focuses closer and has much different optics than an HD-DVD system. The only workable solution for a hybrid drive would probably be to just put two lasers in it... both those expensive blue ones, of course. When the price of the optics falls enough then hybrid drives will probably be possible (just like hybrid DVD+-R drives didn't come out right away, and NTSC-PAL devices, for that matter) but by the time that happens there will probably be a dominant format.

Re:Well...yeah.

[G-funk]

Devices that show NTSC and Pal are super-common, just outside of the US. The rest of the world isn't quite as afraid of interopability. And DVDs are differnt when they're encoded to ntsc vs pal. It's not as different as it used to be in the days of VHS, but there's a difference. I've got region 0 discs in ntsc (pr0n of course) that come out in black and white on some local (pal) player/tv combinations.

Re:Well...yeah.

[ceoyoyo]

I'm not in the US but in Canada, but we do get most of the same stuff as the Americans. We can buy Cuban cigars though, ha!

NTSC and PAL DVDs are different, but not because one has "NTSC" data on it and the other "PAL." The digital data is just recorded in slightly different resolutions and aspect ratios to better match the end analog format. With all the line doubling, aspect ratio adjusting etc. that DVD players do it should be no problem for them to play either kind of disc, but of course lots of them don't because you Europeans shouldn't be playing our region 0 discs, should you? And vice versa of course... in fact, MORE so.

Re:Well...yeah.

[bufalo_1973]

I think you forget something: Microsoft can say "we don't support BluRay reading/writing out of the box in Vista. We only support HD-DVD and older". Add to this the NO support in Linux (Sony making a Linux driver? Yes. And politicians tell the truth). And when you have to buy all BR and can't use it for anything but looking movies and playing on a PS3 it lowers the number of BR sold.

The same happened to DVD. At least in Europe it was too popular until DVD-R was available. And this wasn't too long ago.

Re:Well...yeah.

[Jason Earl]

This is a wave of sentiment going over the internet that is rather quite short sighted. First of all it goes without saying that it is given that the PS3 will garner enough developer support which in turn will show people why they should get a PS3.

I personally don't think that it goes without saying that the PS3 will garner the necessary developer support. Sure, there's lots of games that are slated to support the PS3 now, but if the PS3 doesn't sell well in the first 6 months then lots of games will likely pass on supporting the PS3. It's not like the PS3 is particularly easy to develop for...

As for the rest, even if the PS3 does look better on a standard TV it's not likely to look $200 better, and the Blu-Ray drive is really going to be interesting to those few souls that have HDTVs and are willing to pay a premium for movie content. Like I said in my original post raw performance is not the benchmark that matters. The reason why the PS2 continues to dominate game development is because it is in the most houses. If Sony can't get people to fork out money for the PS3 then it will fail.

Re:Well...yeah.

[Firehed]

But people aren't going to buy their console now based off of what becomes the HD standard a few years down the road. To be completely honest, I think DVD is here to stay for quite a while, and both of the HD formats are likely to flop (due mostly to ever-more-draconiam DRM/CRAP, as they've gone and pissed off their target early-adopter market with HDCP), but that's just speculation. Regardless, when I got a PS2, I got it for gaming, not the DVD drive. Trying to seriously use it to play movies was always a huge hassle as the drives within the unit are so low-quality. Plus, there was no competing format, not to mention one where discs are cheaper, available, and just slightly more consumer-friendly.

Yes, *if* Blu-Ray wins, then it's a huge selling point. If not, it's keeping the cost of the console unnecessarily high. Considering Sony's history with being proprietary, I'd imagine the latter is slightly more likely.

There are plenty of people out there that still don't own a DVD player. I dunno how, but that doesn't change the fact. As I've said numerous times before, it's too early for HD formats - they just don't show enough of an improvement over DVD, let alone an improvement that's cost-effective. I couldn't imagine anyone going out and re-buying their entire DVD collection in HD (all of my family's old VHS collection hasn't been repurchased, except perhaps the odd tape that had tracking issues to hell), regardless of what format wins. However, we're capitalists - whatever's cheaper is going to win, unless there's a HUGE performance difference for a relatively tiny price difference. I'd imagine DVD players that upsample to HD are going to outstrip actual HD players in sales for quite a while, simply because it's a cheaper alternative that produces an acceptable increase.

Re:Well...yeah.

[Parham]

It may sound stupid and ridiculous... but if you're not the first person or the only person to have something "cool", then it's excitement dies out and it's not worth getting. I know several people like this and this situation occured both with the PSP and the Xbox360.

Re:Well...yeah.

[zeroduck]

Never underestimate the supply of brats with rich parents.

Re:Well...yeah.

[GTMoogle]

It's so cute when linux users think they have buying power.

Not to mention most motherboards and DVD drives come with DVD player software, so the same can probably be expected of blurry, doubly so if MS doesn't play out of the box.

MS's lack of support won't stop much. I doubt they'd even go through that trouble since they have little vested interest in HD-DVD, and a lot of interest in being *the* media platform.

Re:Well...yeah.

[ericspinder]

The fight will be costly, but it's pretty clear at this point that Blu-ray will win.

SONY, saying so will not make it true. You will need to compete on price and very aggressively, you are now late to the market, those who are late will need to pay more to compete. Spin aside, you know and I know that Blu-ray is not needed, if that division 'needs' to ride into consumer homes on the gaming console, make the Blu-ray division pay for it. The gaming console is too precarious right now, y'all are a year behind Microsoft, and seem to be a few months behind Wii. 360 has early access to next gen games, Wii has an innovative default controller, you will need to focus on price. Yes, I know that Sony fears price competition, and the idea of just forking over another $100s to the consumer is tough to swallow, but just think how it would be when 360 and Wii fight for 80% of the game disk market.

Re:Well...yeah.

[Deathlizard]

Actually I though of something when they were taking about how cheap the PS3, and it's doesn't look good for Bluray. Basically, the PS3 is going to kill off Bluray, and I'll tell you why.

Lets say you're a manufacture of equipment and are choosing which player to make. The HD-DVD player is easier to build and cheaper, while the Bluray player is more expensive but has more storage and possibly better quality video. Now, when you look at your bottom line you can sell an HD-DVD player for $500-$700 but your Bluray player will sell around $800-$1000.

Now, here comes Sony with their BluRay equipped $500-$600 PS3. You know that you'll be selling your Bluray player at a loss if you sell it any less than $800 and you know anyone that wants a Bluray player will just get a PS3 since it's cheaper. You also know you can't compete against it with Bluray but can easily compete with an HD-DVD player and even the XBOX 360 plus HD-DVD will be in that $500-$700 competitive range your player will be in.

As a manufacture looking out for your Shareholders, what are you going to build?

Basically, the PS3 will be the only Bluray player in the market because it will drive the market away from it and toward the cheaper HD-DVD. That is until Bluray drops in price, and by then, the format war will be over and HD-DVD will be the winner.

Re:Well...yeah.

[drewmca]

I agree that it would be stupid to leverage leadership in gaming to sell more units in the consumer electronics arena, but I don't think that's the goal. The goal is to promote Blu-Ray as a format so they can get paid on the licensing costs for the format. They'll still be dealing with razor-thin margins with their TVs and Blu-Ray players (and continue the battle with their newfound sparring partner, Samsung), but so long as they're making money on every Blu-Ray player sold, they're happy. It's the same thing they've been going after with every new proprietary format they've pushed.

Re:Well...yeah.

[Jester998]

Ah.. you were talking about a hardcore gamer who does spend $400+ on a graphics card? those same people won't have a problem spending $600 on a console either if the games are convincing enough.

Just yesterday I spent over $2K CAD on a new system (still waiting for the parts to ship in :( ) - Athlon X2 4400+ Toledo, 2GB OCZ EL Platinum RAM, eVGA GeForce 7900 GTX EGS 512MB PCI-E graphics, Antec Neo 550W High-Efficiency PS, Antec P160W case, 2x300GB Seagate SATA2 drives; I already had dual 19" widescreen LCDs and a gaming keyboard and mouse that I'll be reusing.

I'm one of those "hardcore gamers" who would drop $500 or more on a video card... but I still wouldn't touch a console, $600 or not, with a 10-foot pole, regardless of the games that are out for it.

By the time you buy a good HDTV (I can't stand SDTV resolution, never could), the overpriced games, receivers and/or speakers, and the console itself, the costs are the same either way. A high-end PC gaming rig, or a good home theater/console gaming system... it's roughly the same in terms of initial cost.

Of course, life-span comes into play here. A high-end PC 'degrades' from bleeding-edge fairly quickly. A good home theater system and console will last several years before being considered obsolete. PC games allow you to lower graphic and detail levels, extending the use of old hardware.

Given the flexibility that PCs offer outside of a pure gaming machine (I use my machine for development work as well), I feel that it's a good value for my money. Expensive? Undoubtedly. But I don't own a TV at all, let alone a full home theater system, so it works out in the end.

Re:Well...yeah.

[Cadallin]

And your kind of experience is a significant component in the slowness of HDTV adoption, consumers are, rightfully, afraid of getting screwed over by an HDTV purchase.

Re:Well...yeah.

[masdog]

Or poor parents who want to spoil/shut up their kids.

Re:Well...yeah.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not the graphics that make the PS3 so good. It's the real physics that's the wow factor.....physics up to this point have been for the most part faked in games.......notice how in a lot of games bullets and explosions do no real damage to walls, ground or furniture, nor cars when they hit a side wall, or how clothing, hari and weapons clip through each other in fighting games? This is what the ps3 is suppose to change.

Re:Well...yeah.

[WhyCause]

This is something we call "barrier to entry." Even if the barrier is very low, the cost still keeps out the riff-raff, and, since the individual invested something, they are more inclined to treat it seriously. Suppose you charge as little as $1/year; the hassle involved with actually paying that dollar make it unattractive to those who just want to screw around with other people.

As an example, when the GameCube was announced, I read online that there were free demo DVDs available at game stores. When I went to get one, they had a price of $0.01 on them. I pulled out a penny to pay, and they guy behind the counter said, "don't worry about it, we put that on there so that people won't just take them all." Even a barrier as low as one cent will reduce hassle and discourage trouble-makers.

The reason you have no fun in free betas is that any 12 year old with a chip on his shoulder and no real desire to see if the game is any good can log in and try to break shit. Hey, he's twelve, that's what you do when you're that age. Requiring a console and a game purchase, however, reduces the number of idiots who will actually end up playing you online, especially if you eschew the types of games that attract the 12 year old 'hardcore' gamers.

Re:Well...yeah.

[Anonymous Coward]

I am ABSOLUTELY convinced you guys have gotten it wrong after all!
Have you any idea how they speak about the upcoming release of PS3 in frat houses, golf club lockers rooms, and your general A&F crowds?
(sadly most of my friends fit the "aspirational" meathead type - and call you "sharp" when you look money)
For them it's the BEST shit that is to come! The second coming! Ask for specs and the play back rumors from 2 years ago! These crowd made the ipod - not the techno geeks that poo'd it when it came out 'cause Ogg is not supported - Can't be bothered! These morons were not unimpressed by how mundane a technology may be if it seems slick... The morons BUY ring tones for USB/Bluetooth phones.
Buy the "silver" Canon REBEL - yeah! These crowd learns what's cool from maxim, GQ, etc. will be so bombarded by how shinny the box looks that will buy it just cause it will go with their wannabe entertainment system.
And since they get laid more than most, the rest will sadly follow hoping to do the one thing that jocks do that doesn't require breaking a sweat!
AND I'M NOT BEING CONDESCENDING, for I know how sadly TRUE this is.

Re:Well...yeah.

[IClavdivs]

I dunno, I know mass gangstas that no matter what the cost, are going to buy two PS3's; one for their home and one for their late model car.

Re:Well...yeah.

[NutscrapeSucks]

Actually, the "cheap" PS3 only has component HD output, no HDMI. Which is great news for you because it effectively kills the move towards mandatory HDMI.

Re:Well...yeah.

[bufalo_1973]

It's so cute when linux users think they have buying power

Linux user != not a buyer/renter.

MS's lack of support won't stop much

Just one word: piracy.

Re:Well...yeah.

[NitsujTPU]

it just means people are convinced (In the same way that Mercedes-Benz, Starbucks, Bose, and Banana Republic customers are convinced).

Starbucks coffee has more caffeine and is loaded with sugar (if you get the popular varieties. The reason it's popular is because it tastes like a milkshake and satisfies the chemical dependencies that it's consumers have, better.

Plus, for a large chain, it's not bad coffee.

Re:Well...yeah.

[nugneant]

It's so cute when linux users think they have buying power

Linux user != not a buyer/renter.

What he means is that there aren't very many Linux users, so even if they all manage to stage the world's first effective, efficient boycott, Blu-Ray's only lost 1% of the entire world market.

Sorta like if your product cannot be used by blind albino dwarves with no arms - sucks, yeah, but unfortunately there aren't enough blind albino dwarves with no arms to keep the masses from being perfectly happy with our UV-blasting monitors, desk chairs, and keyboards. =)

Re:Well...yeah.

[nugneant]

He's talking about online gaming.

(duh)

Re:Well...yeah.

[Tatsh]

Excellent.

Re:Well...yeah.

[The_Mr_Flibble]

You mean you only went for one graphics card ?

Re:Well...yeah.

[Jester998]

For now. :)

I almost went with dual 7900 GT's, but I figured by the time I need that much GPU power, the GTXs will have dropped enough for me to justify buying another one. :)

Re:Well...yeah.

[The_Mr_Flibble]

Could be worse you could still be running on an agp mobo and you could of been sold a 6600 as a 6800.

Re:Well...yeah.

[johansalk]

The gaming market isn't ridiculously profitable. I think Sony made ~$400m profit from their entire sales of PS2, whereas Microsoft made a considerable loss from their entire sales of DorkBox/FratBox. They were fighting for marketshare at any cost. Nintendo, though coming a distant third place in marketshare and mass mindshare, actually made the most profits, a triple those of Sony. I could be mistaken, but that's what I heard, and I don't care much about this to check the fact.

Re:Well...yeah.

[The-Bus]

Under that logic, Xbox Live will be better than PS3's live services because these people won't be around. And as an occasional Live Halo 2 player, I can tell you that's not the case.

Re:Well...yeah.

[Jason Earl]

I agree that Sony is using the PS3 as a way to get Blu-Ray into consumer's hands. I just don't think that Blu-Ray is worth the risk to Sony's gaming division. $600 is a lot of money to pay for a gaming console, and if Sony doesn't sell a lot of these consoles then not only will Blu-Ray be a failure, but so will Sony's next gen console. You would think that Sony would have learned from Microsoft's expensive XBox fiasco. Microsoft lost billions on the original XBox by giving away hardware at less than cost. Now Sony is doing the same thing, except it has an even higher pricetag on the PS3.

Sony is essentially aiming their console at the part of the market that happily spends $700 on a video card for their custom PC gaming rig. However, even in PC gaming game companies do not write games that are only playable by folks with high end rigs. The hardcore gamer is simply not a large enough market to be viable.

If the potential royalties on Blu-Ray are truly high enough to make it worth this sort of a gamble then Blu-Ray is doomed anyhow. Blu-Ray has powerful enemies, and the hardware manufacturers do not want a format to win that has heavy royalties. Sony should have learned that lesson from the past as well.

Re:Well...yeah.

[Rob Kaper]

What about MP3 players? Sony has their bean-shaped Walkman players (1GB) available for $120-$160 depending on features. Compare that to an iPod shuffle for $100 or an iPod Nano for $140.

Sony has never performed well in commodity technology, which an MP3 player most certainly is.

Sony's flagship for the Walkman series is not the Sony Walkman, but any of the newer Sony Ericsson Walkman phones (K750i although not branded as such, W800 and W810). It is probably the most popular series of mobile phones since the Nokia 3310.

Give it a few more years and there will be a Sony Ericsson PSP.

Re:Well...yeah.

[SillyNickName4me]

PC vs console for gaming is another discussion alltogether. I tend to agree with your point of view.

That said, most people have a tv at home, and if they care about 'home entertainment' they might even have a hdtv already, so for them a console would be quite a bit cheaper then for you. Many of them don't seem to care what their game runs on as long as it looks 'cool' and gives them the playing experience they want. Yeah, I know people with high-end gaming rigs, and an xbox 360 and a ps2 and a gamecube and.. (you get the picture).. Seeing such people you might even wonder if you would qualify for 'hardcore gamer' :)

Re:Well...yeah.

[Anonymous Coward]

So no matter what, act like you're #2, always.

Re:Well...yeah.

[bufalo_1973]

I know what he meant. But let me say something:

- No Windows support -> 70%? 85%? (depends on "ETA" of BRs) of the market not supporting BR.
- No Linux support -> 5%? 15%? (depends...) not supporting DRM/BR
- Only Mac OS to make "backups" of movies and PS3 games

So only Mac users can make backups... if there was no DRM in Mac OS. But it is. Maybe I'm mistaken but this means no (starting) piracy of PS3 games. Do you really think PS3 will sell without piracy? And no PS3 sales mean no/not enough BR rented/sold.

Maybe time will prove me wrong but if there's no piracy there's no BR.

Re:Well...yeah.

[drewmca]

I think the licensing and royalties is the main impetus behind this, not selling BluRay players. Sony co-developed the CD standard with Philips, and although I'm not sure how royalties got paid out on that, look how ubiquitous the format is. I know that Toshiba got paid out quite a bit on DVD royalties, because they did most of the dev on that standard (IIRC). Sony wants to do the same with Blu-Ray, and they could care less how much they make on selling disc players.

As for Blu-Ray being doomed, they also have a lot of powerful allies. They've got Dell and Apple in the PC space, tons of consumer electronics makers like Pioneer, Samsung, and Panasonic, and the support of the majority of the movie studios. That last is the key; the studios prefer BluRay because of tighter (read, more draconian) DRM. Without studio support, no movie format will do that well. Sony owns a movie studio themselves, which is also a leg up. As for hardware manufacturers not wanting a format that has heavy royalties, they're stuck either way. They either pay Sony for BluRay or Toshiba for HDDVD. I don't know how much it is but I'm sure they're competitive with each other and from everything I've read, licensing costs are not an issue in the format war.

DOn't get me wrong, I have no preference for BluRay. I'm just stating the facts as I know them. If anything, I'm partial to HD-DVD only because I've heard its DRM isn't as damn fascist.

Re:Well...yeah.

[Anonymous Coward]

The amount sony made was $40 million not $400. Nintendo made about $1 Billion and Microsoft lost about $400 Million. The fact is Nintendo is the only company making money off of viedo games right now. The reason is simple. Games cost $50 but the consol makers only see a small licensing fee from the sale of each game. Normally this is in the range of $10. If you loose $100 on the sale of a consol you need that person to buy 10 games to break even. It was reported that Microsoft was loosing $150 off of early Xbox units. and maybe $40 off of units now. They are still taking massive losses. If Sony is looking at the reported $300-$400 loss per consol they are dead in the water. They do not have the cash to absorbe that kind of loss.

Re:Well...yeah.

[LordVader717]

BD and HDDVD both use 405 nm lasers. And even today, you need different llenses and lasers to read CDs and all the recordable formats.

Re:Well...yeah.

[ceoyoyo]

Same laser but very different focusing mechanism. The BD laser has to focus both closer and smaller to get the extra capacity of BD.

Sure you can make a drive that does both, just like you can make a drive that reads and writes CD and DVD. BUT notice how those combo drives didn't show up until the formats they supported were all common place and cheap?

Re:Well...yeah.

[FurryFeet]

I think I like the fact that the PS3 is more expensive. It will keep the brats away longer

I couldn't agree more. Apparently the PS3 will keep the brats away from me and my Wii.

Re:Well...yeah.

[nugneant]

*blink* *blink*

I read that post three times now, and each time it came across as nothing more than a non-sequitur. I'll try one more time:

"If they don't support Windows, that's a 75-85% smackdown in the marketshare. If they don't support Linux, that's somewhere between 5%-15% smackdown. So that means [right about here is where all we ever thought we knew about logic is thrown out the window and violently hate-fucked] Mac will be the only platform to pirate things on [what the fuck? Steve Jobs is in the back pocket of the media companies. Have you never heard of this thing called iTunes? Steve Jobs would do whatever it took to keep the media companies happy], except not on MacOS [exactly], so nobody's going to pirate, so the console isn't going to sell and STARE INTO THE MIDNIGHT OF MY EYES; FOR I AM THE SECRET-KEEPER, THE VERY VASTNESS OF THE INTERNET; I SHALL LET YOU DOWN WITH A FRIENDLY SMILE, AND BEQUEATH ONTO YOU A GOLDEN CHALICE, FOR THE SURVIVAL, ENTRAPMENT, AND GENTLE CONSUMPTION OF YOUR LIQUID HONEY COVERED DREAMS"

Yep. Still sounds, at best, -1, Troll to me.

Re:Well...yeah.

[WhyCause]

Not really, notice that I said "reduces the number." If it were all free/readily accessible (i.e., family PC and a free beta) there would be more of them on there.

I'll just let that scary thought sink in.

Re:Well...yeah.

[bufalo_1973]

I'm sorry if I made you think I was trolling. I was making the "strange" assumption that what happened with the PS1 (very easy to pirate with a chip and ANY CD cloning program) and the PS2 (chip and program again) will happen too with the PS3. And if Windows (maybe "the PS pirate's platform") doesn't support BR, as it's a direct competition to HD-DVD, there won't be so easy to make backups.

About Mac OS, I say "if there was no DRM" but Mac OS is the number one target for DRM (thanks to iTMS and other "nice things").

So a POSSIBLE scenario can be the one I'm saying:

- MS not offering direct BR support (making Joe Six-pack use the brain and browse for the unofficial support)

- Linux not supporting DRM (no DRM coping or even reading)

- Mac OS with full DRM support (you have to battle against anti-copy protection)

This leads to very hard to copy BRs. And PS1 and PS2 sold/is selling many units thanks to piracy. This means a lot less units sold.

And I'm not saying this only happens with PS. Dreamcast started to sell when there were pirated games. And DVDs began to sell (well) when DVDR came to the market. It is common to all new formats/media.

P.S.: And I don't have a crystal ball to tell you the future. It's only thinking that what happened before can happen again with the next model of the same thing.

While Nintendo may have won E3, Sony ...

[WillAffleckUW]

Hmmm. While I do think that it is true that Nintendo won E3, based on all the blogs at Washington Post, Seattle Times, Seattle PI, and New York Times, as well as more typical ones on gamer sites, I don't know that, as an investor, I'd say that Sony killed themselves.

I would instead say that they missed an opportunity and need to rethink their marketing price points and possibly their game releases.

Sure, Microsoft (nope, don't own it, sold it to lock in a technical loss, and as of today don't own any of these companies) did manage to get the media to cover their GTA release on the xBox360 and most press never clued in that it is releasing on both the P3 and the 360.

Sure, Nintendo got all the buzz and those of us who really aren't into FPS very much are buying the Wii (hate the name). Heck, they even demo'd a really cool FPS or two, and Red Steel swordplay sold me on the controller more than even the fishing and driving demos.

But, in the end, if they pick themselves up, dust themselves off, reset the retail price for the non-crippled P3 to something reasonable - as in, less than $500 US and less than 500 EUs - then they can still regain the market.

Battles frequently can be won even with major setbacks - sure, Sony was routed at E3, but they've got six months to get their act in gear and learn from their mistakes.

Re:While Nintendo may have won E3, Sony ...

[falcon5768]

sony hasn't learned from their mistakes in 10+ years at this point. I highly doubt 6 months will help them any.

The fact is, the Sony of the 80's is NOT the Sony of the 90's-00's. They lost touch with reality.

Re:While Nintendo may have won E3, Sony ...

[WillAffleckUW]

The fact is, the Sony of the 80's is NOT the Sony of the 90's-00's. They lost touch with reality.

Well, I still think it's early to say that, although I did notice my son sold his old Nintendo box for $50 recently, so maybe you're right. Maybe they did have cooler games back then.

Re:While Nintendo may have won E3, Sony ...

[MindStalker]

But, in the end, if they pick themselves up, dust themselves off, reset the retail price for the non-crippled P3 to something reasonable - as in, less than $500 US and less than 500 EUs - then they can still regain the market.

But they can't. Sony PS3 is so hightech (with their 3 cell processors and blue-ray) they are losing a lot of money selling at $599. I think the $499 version is so crimpled is because they know the buyers of this version arn't as likly to buy as many games, so they can't afford to sell a system that mearly cost them $100 less as they can't expect much game license recoup. In the end, Sony has two chances with the PS3.
1.) Market it as a computer alternative and include a full linux distrubtion.
2.) Drop a processor or two as the games being made right now don't even come close to using the full functionality.

Re:While Nintendo may have won E3, Sony ...

[thebdj]

Battles frequently can be won even with major setbacks - sure, Sony was routed at E3, but they've got six months to get their act in gear and learn from their mistakes.

You seriously think they will adjust the price point? Sony is going to ride this $600 to their demise. To think they will drop it is absurd. Sony is notorious for over-pricing products in the hopes of selling on some sort of reputations, which they still have with many normal consumers.

Now, granted they have undershot the price of their launch Blu-Ray player (and everyone elses really), but if they go much lower the other companies will start screaming foul, which they already should be, because Sony is technically selling a BD player for almost 1/2 the market price. Though I still believe Blu-ray players will drop below the PS3 price sooner rather than later.

Also, using estimated number the penetration of HDTVs has been projected, at best, near 30%...by 2010. This means that nearly 70% of televisions (probably close to 80-90% now) will have no gain from the new format, making Blu-Ray (and HD-DVD) largely pointless for most Americans. I think Sony might be signing their deathwish by making the console with a blu-ray player.

I do not want to come out sounding too much like a conspiracy nut, but Sony is trying to use the PS3 to launch BD and not the console itself. There is much more money to be made in movies then in the game market, since movies are a much more "universal" form of entertainment. If Sony made the console with only DVD support, like 360 and Wii, I would almost bet that they would have pricing that is much more competitive to the other consoles; however, I think their true competitor is HD-DVD and other Blu-Ray drive makers.

Re:While Nintendo may have won E3, Sony ...

[SatanicPuppy]

That's probably why the PS2 is still the most popular console...Oh wait...

They're going to keep being evil, no doubt. But don't think it's going to eat their bottom line. It hasn't yet, and it's unlikely to in the future.

Re:While Nintendo may have won E3, Sony ...

[ericspinder]

They lost touch with reality.

I'd say the reality moved past Sony. At one time Sony produced innovated good quality products at the high market price. They still do, but one thing that they have always tried to do, and more often failing than not, is lock consumers into their propriety technology, hoping that consumer adaptation whould lead to industry adaptation. Sony plays this gambit every time it can, as it sees money coming in from both ends, but it seems to fail to live up to expectations every single time (Betamax, mini-disc, memory stick). Now they are using their hottest property to sell Blu-ray to the consumer, the problem is that it tacks another $200 to the price of an already expesive product, and has (in part) put it one year behind the closest competetor. I've said it before, but they need to make Blue-ray optional.

Re:While Nintendo may have won E3, Sony ...

[rabbot]

I'm sure you'll see many people who DO like FPS buying the Wii. It is, in fact, the only console which has a controller that lends itself perfectly to FPS's.

Re:While Nintendo may have won E3, Sony ...

[LordMyren]

This whole price thing is such a sham. I cant believe everyone is eating this at face value. This e3, far more than any others, has shown just how lovingly people dive into the hype. Yes, what nintendo is doing is exciting and cool, yes, hte initial Sony price is perposterous. But over the next five years, I truly believe the real innovation, the truly amazing, in greater part is going to be coming from the Sony side of the game.

Sure its going to cost $500 at launch. Thats a bargain! A elementary case of supply and demand; and guess what, there isnt going to be any supply, no matter what Sony charges. Ebay scalpers are gonna sell these things for $800, easy, unless the Yields fairy comes down and magically solves all sony's fab problems and lets sony start shipipng the stupid thing en-volume. The INQ is right, basically, this is a paper launch of limited production, and you really can get away with charging whatever you want on paper launch.

Once Sony figures out how to build the damned things, after a coule tens of thousands of very expensive units get shipped, prices will drop to a far more respectable level. And thats when we'll be able to actually find the things.

But again, the eternal sony question, will the left hand have any idea what the right is doing? Once they start selling for $500, they're going be lament to lower the price, even though right now its their honest and true #1 chief goal.

Sony's a tragic left hand / right hand company, everything is compromise & compromised. On that note, it will be exceedingly interesting to see the Linux open-development status at release; another PS2 failure, or a real attempt this time-- sony has never been known for being open.

Myren

Re:While Nintendo may have won E3, Sony ...

[sbaker]

Dropping processors won't cut the price significantly. Once the chip is designed, the manufacturing cost depends only on volume and yield. Dropping one or more cell processors might help yield somewhat - but not enough to chop more than maybe $10 off the price.

The HUGE cost in PS3 is the BluRay drive. There were estimates out there that they cost SONY $1000 each. The electronics in the PS3 probably costs only a couple of hundred bucks - the rest is in the hard drive and the BluRay drive. These days they can't do without the former - and politically, I don't see how they can drop the latter (although they should).

So even at $600, I'd guess that they're probably selling the console at a $300 net loss. With $60 games (eeek!) they can maybe claw back $20 to $30 from each game sold - so long as the average owner buys maybe 10 to 15 games, they'll eke out a profit.

But I don't know many kids in their demographic who can afford to lay out $60 for a game on a regular basis.

A common rule-of-thumb for parents in the USA is that kids should get an allowance of between 50c and a dollar for every year of their age. So a kid in the 15 year old range at the high end of the demographic will probably be able to spend $15 a week - that's just one $60 game per month - at MOST 12 games per year...but in all likelyhood it'll be much, much less than that because kids are terrible at saving and will tend to buy music or something like that instead.

So kids will get one or maybe two games for birthday and Xmas - it's hard to see how Sony are going to sell more than a dozen games per console owner in the first couple of years. It's a financial disaster for them - and the more consoles they sell, they more money they'll lose.

Are they expecting to sell more to adults with enough disposable income? Maybe - but I suspect adults will be heading to the Xbox.

I think the PS3 is purely and simply a vehicle for getting BluRay players out there against an apathetic public who are (quite frankly) very happy with standard DVD's.

Re:While Nintendo may have won E3, Sony ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Red Steel swordplay sold me on the controller more than even the fishing and driving demos.

Apparently Red Steel's swordplay isn't all it's cracked up to be.

Re:While Nintendo may have won E3, Sony ...

[Anonymous Coward]

I do not want to come out sounding too much like a conspiracy nut, but Sony is trying to use the PS3 to launch BD and not the console itself. There is much more money to be made in movies then in the game market, since movies are a much more "universal" form of entertainment. If Sony made the console with only DVD support, like 360 and Wii, I would almost bet that they would have pricing that is much more competitive to the other consoles; however, I think their true competitor is HD-DVD and other Blu-Ray drive makers.

what conspiracy? i thought this was obvious all along? $500 - $600 for a Blu-Ray deck AND a gaming machine is a deal. before i bought my PS2, i didn't have a DVD player. i'm sure this was true for a lot of PS2 owners. and i'm sure a lot of them still use the PS2 as their primary (only?) DVD player. this is an excellent opportunity for Sony to gain market share in the Blu-Ray/HD-DVD battle. most people will think it's almost pointless to get an expensive separate hi-def player when they've already got one.. the PS3.

Re:While Nintendo may have won E3, Sony ...

[tricorn]

It is total nonsense that the Blu-Ray drive in the PS3 will cost Sony $1000. It's more likely that it will cost less than $100, considering that most of the mechanism is exactly the same as what's in those DVD players that cost $30, and things like power supplies, connectors, and controlling electronics are already part of the console. The laser/optics are different, but $1000? That's ridiculous. Pre-release price for a complete Blu-Ray player, not just the drive mechanism, is $1000, and that's the RETAIL price, not the cost to manufacture.

Re:While Nintendo may have won E3, Sony ...

[falcon5768]

it has already, just not in games yet. Their shortsidedness that being king means you can do whatever you want is what cost them the portable player market. Its also cost them their car stereo market and their desktop computer market (which is why they got out of it entirely and put out laptops now)

This is EXACTLY what happened to kill the walkman and make the iPod king now. Sony hit the top, decided they would release a extremely expensive technology that while innovative was also unaffordable to most common people thanks to outrageous licensing agreements and sheer cost of the recording equipment (minidisk and the godawful expensive media it was on.) And watched as the market flew by going for something else that was cheaper generally cheaper.

Re:While Nintendo may have won E3, Sony ...

[Castar]

Now, granted they have undershot the price of their launch Blu-Ray player (and everyone elses really), but if they go much lower the other companies will start screaming foul, which they already should be, because Sony is technically selling a BD player for almost 1/2 the market price. Though I still believe Blu-ray players will drop below the PS3 price sooner rather than later.

I don't think that's the case. I think the Blu-Ray partners will be happy about the PS3. Think about DVD players - the PS2 plays DVDs, but it's pretty crappy at it. When DVD players were expensive, a lot of people got a PS2 to play them. People who cared, though, the early adopters and movie buffs, they got the expensive, good-quality DVD players. Eventually, when the format was a success and prices came down, almost everyone who bought a PS2 for the DVD player could upgrade easily to another one (since you can get a great DVD player for $50-100 these days). The partners never really lost anything to the PS2, because the people who were buying it wouldn't have bought their expensive players, and the people who bought the expensive players, for the most part, wouldn't settle for the PS2. It did help the format succeed, though, and lead to long-term success for DVD and those companies.

Of course, I'm still not convinced Blu-Ray will ever be a success as a format, but I think it's likely that the PS3 won't really compete with the other Blu-Ray players for the high-end, early adopter market. It'll just be a cheap, bundled way to get the format accepted, so that everyone will build libraries of BDs and buy new Blu-Ray players when the price comes down.

Re:While Nintendo may have won E3, Sony ...

[jasonditz]

Yeah, the other problem with expecting Sony to react to this defeat is that they seem totally oblivious to it. To hear them talk, the PS3 was a rousing success and the "true gamers" will be lining up for it no matter what the price. This is evidenced by defenses like "if anything, it's too cheap".

Re:While Nintendo may have won E3, Sony ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Surely you mean "less than $500 and less than 400". 500 dollars equal about 390 euro at the current rate.

50% FUD, 50% fanboy.

[Anonymous Coward]

Looking at these negative campaign these days. I think Microsoft FUD is real. Someone who competes with Microsoft gets this kind of negative rants all the time.

Good job. :(

Re:50% FUD, 50% fanboy.

[monopole]

Yeah, but the big buzz is about Nintendo which may well undercut both Micro$oft and Sony.

Re:50% FUD, 50% fanboy.

[chazzzzy]

I bet the PS3 kicks butt! Microsoft is doing a great job in the grass-roots campaign to attack the PS3 and get people who were waiting to buy the PS3 (me for one) to go give up and buy the XBox 360.

I'm not falling for it! :-)

Re:50% FUD, 50% fanboy.

[pikman]

the xbots are totally swarming all over this one. the ps3 is a moddable, linux driven, homebrew friendly, multimedia networked home computer with a shit kicking processor and graphics card to play games in HD, movies in HD, photos, music and more. It works with the PSP as a controller and supports industry standard hard drives and peripherals. a poor press conference does not a poor system make .

Re:50% FUD, 50% fanboy.

[geminidomino]

the ps3 is a moddable, linux driven, homebrew friendly, multimedia networked home computer with a shit kicking processor and graphics card to play games in HD, movies in HD, photos, music and more.

You actually beleive that Sony is going to loosen their stranglehold enough to let it be "moddable" and "homebrew friendly?"

Just like they did with the PSP, right?

Re:50% FUD, 50% fanboy.

[Anonymous Coward]

Micro$oft... that is the zaniest thing I have ever heard!! The only thing that could make this funnier is if you, like, made fun of netspeak? You know, LOL and OMG and WTF and that stuff. It's, so totally like "BBQ" to me!

Nintendo fanboys are truly starting a REVOLUTION!!! (of repulsive fruitiness)

So TOTALLY mod the parent up.

Why Sony is ready to self destruct:

[Anonymous Coward]

Because people on the internet hate them. I mean, just read any Slashdot article and you'll see. And just look at these cooltechzone.com people. They're clearly really cheesed off.

With the combined might of the Slashdot userbase and "cooltechzone.com" aligned against them, how can Sony possibly survive?

Re:Why Sony is ready to self destruct:

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't forget Digg. With their insignificance complex they might cry foul! NO DIGG!!!

Re:Why Sony is ready to self destruct:

[Doytch]

Joke all you want at the small size of the 'tech' crowd, but enthusiasts hold a great deal of sway over the general public.

If someone doesn't know which tv to buy, they'll ask their techie friend about what he/she recommends. And go into any electronics store(NOT best buy) and you'll see passionate people who won't recommend a POS.

This is after all exactly what happens with computers.

Re:Why Sony is ready to self destruct:

[twosmokes]

Then how do you explain the success of Dell in spite of virtually every tech enthusiast's constant railing against them?

Re:Why Sony is ready to self destruct:

[WuphonsReach]

Then how do you explain the success of Dell in spite of virtually every tech enthusiast's constant railing against them?

Eh? For the average home user, who wants a lot of hand-holding and don't plan on running current games... sending them to Dell means I don't have to deal with the support headaches. Plus, their prices are quite reasonable for low-end machines.

Dell is not all bad. They have their niche, they're just not a good fit for folks who want oodles of upgrade room or power-users who want the best bang for the buck. (Personally, I prefer to custom-build my own.)

Keep dreaming.

[SatanicPuppy]

Sure Sony is run by a bunch of jackasses. Sure their PS3 product doesn't seem to match up to the current competition. Sure they're schizoid with regards to their music distribution, etc.

But they are not today, nor in the next 10 years, at all likely to "Self-destruct". This is a corporation, not a political party. They're not losing money at present, and if they pull off the PS3 thing well enough to set blu-ray as the new hd standard (who cares about the games?), their entire board of directors is going to spend the next decade snorting coke and gold dust off the asses of high priced prostitutes.

They're taking the long view in this situation, and I'll be surprised if we'll know how it worked out for a decade or more. The value of owning the dominant video standard cannot be overestimated.

Re:Keep dreaming.

[kyle (in stereo)]

Sony IS losing money. Just do a Google for "Sony Profit" and look at the troubled times they have had these past few years.

Re:Keep dreaming.

[Anonymous Coward]

>>They're not losing money at present...

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6148465.html

"On the gaming side of the business, Sony's game division showed strong revenue performance but lackluster profitability, with 958.6 billion yen ($8.2 billion) in revenue yielding only 8.7 billion yen ($75 million) in income. Despite revenue growth of 31 percent, profits for the division fell 80 percent year-on-year, a sharp decline that Sony attributed to continued high R&D costs for the PlayStation 3 and "charges associated with preparation for the launch of the PS3." As a result, the game business was a drag on the company's overall profitability this year; despite bringing in about 13 percent of overall revenue, games yielded only 7 percent of the company's profits."

Their profitability has been shrinking quite a bit - and they are gunna have to spend a lot of $$$ to push the PS3 - if that doesn't sell as many units as they think (and they think 10 million which is insane) their profitability will be hurting even more.

It's not the fact of whether or not they are profitable - it's the fact that if it's not as profitable as they claim it should be - it will be considered a flop. And I believe this time Sony is overselling itself - setting themselves up for a hard time ahead...

Re:Keep dreaming.

[harrkev]

The value of owning the dominant ______ standard cannot be overestimated.

Beta.
Mini-Disc.
Memory Stick.

Sony has proven that it can't win ANY standard. Beta and Mini-Disc are dead, and the Memory Stick is kept on life support by Sony laptops and cameras.

Re:Keep dreaming.

[rcamera]

Sony IS losing money

really?

and when i do a google search, the 3rd result states that " Sony's profit jumps 68 percent ".

Re:Keep dreaming.

[monopole]

Yeah, 'cos Betamax, MiniDisc, UMD and MemoryStick worked out so well.
Most of Sony's problems in the past 10 years have come from attempts to establish proprietary media standards. DRM has just pushed this stuff into hellish rootkit overdrive.
This is compounded by open civil war between the hardware and content divisions where the company is suing itself repeatedly.
And while they aren't taking losses yet they have had preciptious profit drops, including the notorious 98% drop back in 2003.

Re:Keep dreaming.

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you sure Blu-Ray will be the dominant video standard? It's more expensive, and very few people (10%) have the ability to play HD video at full resolution (although I am one of them). Sure, it has more storage space than HD-DVD, but how many MOVIES need 25GB or storage? None that I've heard of. 25GB is great for GAMES, but let me go out on a limb and say that MOVIES will decide the dominant format that people will buy MOVIES in. It's a novel concept, I know.

Plus, look at Sony's track record with introducing new formats:

Betamax - lost to VHS

MiniDisc - lost to mp3s, but probably could have lost even without mp3s

Memory Stick - minimal market penetration, Sony fanboys seem to love it, but that's about it

UMD - lost to NOTHING!

Blu-Ray - Do you REALLY think that with a track record like this, being MORE EXPENSIVE than HD-DVD, launching LATER than HD-DVD, having NO APPRECIABLE ADVANTAGE for MOVIES over HD-DVD, and forcing companies that want to use the format to pay a LICENSING FEE is a recipe for success?

It will probably be great having 25GB on one disc, but once Samsung comes out with a dual-format player (and you know they will), Sony will have no way of strong-arming companies into paying their exorbitant licensing fees, since HD-DVD will be just as viable an option.

Re:Keep dreaming.

[The_Real_Quaid]

'They're not losing money at present"

Huh? Methinks you ought to familiarize yourself with The Facts.

Sony is absolutely bleeding money. The game division was just about their only profitable division, and it is tanking bigtime at the moment. Another year or two of this and Sony really will be bankrupt or sold off.

This is why Sony is so adamant about getting BluRay into PS3 - the rest of the company needs the game division to carry them on their backs.

M$ smells blood, and they will be going in for the kill. As they said in Star Wars, "The emperor has made a critical error and the time for action is now."

Re:Keep dreaming.

[SatanicPuppy]

You forgot about that stupid psp video format.

Just because they haven't won one yet, doesn't mean they never will. they're banking on the PS3 to get blu-ray into every home. If it happens, they'll be geniuses. If it doesn't they'll be idiots.

This time, they're trying to do it the right way, which I think is interesting. They're putting the player out before they're putting the media out, and they're attaching cool stuff(games) to the player, which will almost certainly get people buying them. Sure it'll be pricey, but so is a regular computer, and people dump crazy money on them (cue computer vs console arguments).

It only remains to be seen if they can sell enough units to force blu-ray to the standard.

Re:Keep dreaming.

[Anonymous Coward]

pr0n is using HD-DVD...

'nuff said...

Re:Keep dreaming.

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, what's a billion dollars here or there? They're doomed! Doomed!

http://games.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=185813&c id=15336535 has it right.

Re:Keep dreaming.

[SatanicPuppy]

The first two google results are both 2+ years old, and the very first one talks about profits dropping dramatically to _only_ the 1 billion dollar range.

Big corporations don't die. You have no conception of the actual amount of value that is attached to a company the size of sony. If they never made another product, and switched purely to research and liscensing, they'd still be making a nice profit. They employ more people than a small country.

Yea, they'll look stupid if the PS3 flops, and stupid if blu-ray doesn't catch on. They've looked stupid before. Sony dominates the console market. Last numbers I saw ranked them at SEVENTY PERCENT.

Re:Keep dreaming.

[LunaticTippy]

Sony made 1.5 Billion US$ last year.

Here's a link

I hate Sony my own darn self, but let's not make shit up, ok?

Re:Keep dreaming.

[Anonymous Coward]

Would you want to watch Pr0n at HD resolution? I sure wouldn't. Many of the "actors" are nasty-enough looking at standard-def resolutions.

The europeans are hot though...

Re:Keep dreaming.

[Anonymous Coward]

This is Slashdot! When a technology is adopted by 10% of the public or even 5% of the public, it's a resounding success!!

Re:Keep dreaming.

[LearnToSpell]

lmao. Methinks you ought to familiarize yourself with The Facts. Sony's grossing FOUR BILLION DOLLARS A QUARTER. I put that all in caps, so you won't miss it.

Sony is absolutely bleeding money - wrong.

The game division was just about their only profitable division - wrong again.

Where do people come up with this shit? Doesn't anyone do basic fact-checking anymore, or is that too much work?

Re:Keep dreaming.

[Anonymous Coward]

You'd be surprised how corporate management, with all those high-paid analysts and a responsibility to boost profits as much as possible, can completely bungle up a profitable product line.

Re:Keep dreaming.

[The-Bus]

Sony's profits are extremely weak (if at all existent) in the consumer electronics, non-game division. The games division has done extremely well for them recently. But their most profitable operation, if you measure profits over revenue?

Sony Financial Services: i.e. Sony Insurance, etc. Who would've thought.

Re:Keep dreaming.

[SatanicPuppy]

You answered your own question. People like to believe that, because Sony is evil, they're going to go bankrupt. They don't want to know the facts.

They hear things like "Huge drop in profits!" and they think, "Sony is losing money" rather than, "Sony is sinking ridiculous money into research, which, even if the PS3 goes into the crapper will still net them billions in terms of new patents and new technology."

Sony's not some fly-by-night software company with no material assets. They're a freaking tech manufacturing giant. Even if you're not buying Sony products, products you're buying have Sony components. They have factories and properties worth billions. They're not going to dry up and blow away.

Re:Keep dreaming.

[joshsisk]

Neither of those products cost billions to develop and market. If Blu Ray fails, that means the companies who developed Blu Ray (primarily Sony, right?) are out A LOT of money, and anyone who buys a player is out of luck as no new media will come out for it. If an Open Source project fails, then the developers who spent their time on it are annoyed that they spent their time on something that didn't take off... but hey, they still have the product to use so it's not all bad.

Re:Keep dreaming.

[SatanicPuppy]

The short answer is: it doesn't matter if they lose money, because they can afford to. If blu-ray flops and the PS3 does well, then Sony just netted themselves a nice proprietary format for their games.

It's worth it to them to gamble on being the hd standard. The stakes if they win are so huge that they'd be dumb not to risk it. It's not just the disks...It's the disks, the players, the tvs, everything.

Re:Keep dreaming.

[Suzumushi]

An excellent point. Imagine how much more successful the PSP would have been if you could transfer your DVD movies into a compressed PSP format...rather than have to buy the movie over again at premium prices. I don't see Sony dying, like others have said they are too big for that, but they are definately fading away. Sony is fast becoming the Apple of home electronics. Overpriced, and too strict regarding IP and formats. They'll always be around, but Nintendo and Microsoft are going to become dominant. The funny thing is, Nintendo was in the same seat as Sony is now some years ago and they rebounded nicely.

Re:Keep dreaming.

[DarkOx]

They are not going to have the format though. M$ is going to win with HD-DVD. P3 won't out sell the 360 period. As such it won't be the deciding factor in the dvd war. I am skeptical that the games will be enough to really sway the dvd war one way or antoher anyway, and Sony is not even likely to have the biggest platform. Once M$ comes along with a chaep way for X-box owners to get an HD-DVD play and PS3 blue-ray impact will be more then offset. Lets face facts M$ ALLWAYS wins at the end of the day. Sony and Google are not going to stop them any more then Netscape, Novell or Digital could. Whatever Windows plays is gonna be the new DVD standard Sony is just going to get kicked in the ribs over this and probably for years to come.

Look at it this way when nobody invests in the equipment to make Blue-ray disks because HD-DVD ends up being the standward as I suspect it will. Only Sony is gonna be makeing games that use Blue-ray disks. The rest of PS3 games will be restricted to DVD media capacity just like the X-box and Nintendo's offerings. M$ and Nintendo can more then likely release their next gen systems sooner without angering the public as well thanks to the lower price points at which time they will be able to use the new media. PS3 versions of games will then suck by comparison with the counter offerings on the new systems, and Sony will be marginalized in the console industry every bit as much as Nintendo has been maybe more because unlike Nintendo Sony won't have a nitche. M$ WINS PERIOD.

Re:Keep dreaming.

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't really see how their music strategy exhibits characteristics of schizoid personality disorder, but OK.

Re:Keep dreaming.

[joshsisk]

The flipside is that if both Blu Ray and the PS3 flop, then they are out untold billions.

The reason Sony is in the position it is in now is because the games division was immensely profitable during an span of years where the other divisions were languishing. Sir Stringer has done a pretty good job of making those divisions bounce back, but if Blu Ray and the PS3 both tank? Well... Sony wouldn't go out of business, but it would be a pretty big hit for them to take.

That said, I doubt the PS3 will tank. I can't see it being as big as the PS2, but it doesn't need to succeed that wildly to be a hit.

Re:Keep dreaming.

[SatanicPuppy]

Oh, I agree with you. Iomega proved the flaw of closed standards. Zip disks could have been the standard for rewritable media, but they kept the standard as tight as possible, media stayed expensive, and hardly anyone bought them. Rambus ram, same story. Minidisk, Beta, PSPv, etc.

I don't know. Their ideological constraints may prohibit them from making the smart choice. They may still pull it out though. I'm going to be following it, mainly because I have absolutely no use for any of the products involved, so I can view it as entertainment.

Re:Keep dreaming.

[Krimszon]

...and if they pull off the PS3 thing well enough to set blu-ray as the new hd standard...

Based on their poor E3 performance many believe they will not pull off the 'PS3 thing'! That's what this is discussion is about.

If they are lucky/smart they might own the movie business and Blu-Ray will be the standard. But if they loose the gaming market in this battle, that would be big loss indeed. The gaming market has room to grow to many times it's current size. All you need to do is make gaming appeal to Girls/Women/25+yo.

The medium for movies could well be irrelevant in 5 years because of broadband. You could watch movies on any device. Games can also be streamed in the future, but will still be device specific, so moving into a new market with gaming now is in my eyes the most important thing.

With this in mind I believe MS understands online gaming best, and Nintendo is best at targeting new gamers. Sony doesn't seem to have a clear vision, except to push blu-ray, regardless of the price. They are partying like it's 1999...

Re:Keep dreaming.

[SatanicPuppy]

Yea I agree. I don't think it'll outdo the PS2...I think it would be hard to, considering how many big players have stepped up with good offerings.

If they can sell enough though to make it so that all hd tv makers have to build in blu-ray support...that'll be the tipping point, because you'll have two formats, but only one that everyone supports. Consumers get really antsy about stuff like that with multi-thousand dollar purchases.

Anyway, I think the price'll drop pretty quick, and then they'll be competing with the Xbox while having a superior feature set. Of course the xbox release cycle is less, so they can catch up more easily. But if blu-ray is the standard then, ms'll have to liscense it from sony.

Very interesting. I give this a much better chance of success than any of Sony's other crappy format ventures. Psp video...yech.

Re:Keep dreaming.

[Anonymous Coward]

"lmao. Methinks you ought to familiarize yourself with The Facts. Sony's grossing FOUR BILLION DOLLARS A QUARTER. I put that all in caps, so you won't miss it."

And the US government grosses $2.2 trillion a year and yet is still netting a loss, whats your point?

Re:Keep dreaming.

[dal20402]

i.e. Sony Insurance, etc. Who would've thought.

Introducing our new Sony Rootkit Insurance policies...

Re:Keep dreaming.

[poot_rootbeer]

if they pull off the PS3 thing well enough to set blu-ray as the new hd standard (who cares about the games?)

The same way they pulled off establishing UMD was the new mobile video standard?

Or Memory Stick, SACD, MiniDisc, Beta in their respective markets?

Sony's track record for media format acceptance is dismal, and I'm already ready to write off BluRay as yet another dud.

Re:Keep dreaming.

[blake3737]

their entire board of directors is going to spend the next decade snorting coke and gold dust off the asses of high priced prostitutes.

Where can I sign up to get on their board of directors??

Re:Keep dreaming.

[svnt]

If you look at it with a little better granularity you'll note that they do lose money for half the year (although that is common in the industry) and as a company are not looking incredibly healthy when compared with a few of their sort-of-peers in consumer electronics including Matsushita (Panasonic) and Samsung (quarterly data not available).

Sony had an amazing Q4 in 2005. With the way everythings stacking up on the PS3, it will be interesting to see if they can again use it to crutch their yearly data.

In fairness, they're a bit difficult to compare directly because both MC and Samsung have semiconductor components that make up a substantial portion of their revenue and neither have recording companies (Sony is a many-tentacled monster), but with a bit of browsing around it becomes apparent that Sony isn't gaining ground quite as quickly as some other companies in the same very competitive markets. What is also apparent is how much wider their margins are (how much harder they stick it to the consumer).

Re:Keep dreaming.

[Scudsucker]

The value of owning the dominant video standard cannot be overestimated.

But unless they drop the price AND all the bad PR they've gotten over the PS3's pricetag, that's not going to happen. The PS3 was supposed to be the trojan horse that got millions of Blu-Ray players into people's homes. Being able to get both a Wii and a 360 for the price of the high end PS3, consumers will hold off on high def video. Which means that HD-DVD will come in with it's lower cost and take over the market.

Re:Keep dreaming.

[Pointdexter]

This time, they're trying to do it the right way, which I think is interesting. They're putting the player out before they're putting the media out, and they're attaching cool stuff(games) to the player, which will almost certainly get people buying them.

Yeah, the lack of decent Betamax games really sucked :(

Re:Keep dreaming.

[nugneant]

...And fanboys like this are exactly why large numbers of us are staying far, far, far away from X-Box Live.

Think the PS3 is one year too early

[amuro98]

I think I can sort of understand Sony's strategy with the PS3, but I also think they're too early.

At this time the PS3 is intended to be an inexpensive blu-ray player - just as the PS2 was more popular as a DVD player than as a game machine when it first came out in Japan.

Problem is, blu-ray isn't DVD. Blu-ray isn't the only standard out there, nor is blu-ray that established.

I've yet to meet anyone who's actually interested either of the next-gen DVD formats at this time - mainly because of the uncertainty of having competing formats on the market at the same time. Does anyone actually want to take a shot at having 50% of his next-gen media being declared "Obsolete"? Not to mention that if Sony wants the PS3 to sell as a blu-ray player, they're going to have to convince the high-end A/V market that the PS3 can stand toe-to-toe with the pricier models.

In a year, there will be more Blu-Ray titles on the market, players will begin to drop into the range of mainstream consumers, and the technology in the PS3 will be cheaper, allowing Sony to still position the PS3 as both a game machine and affordable blu-ray player.

If blu-ray fails to win the market, it would not surprise me to see Sony starting to talk about an earlier launch for the PS4, just so they can get away from the failed, and expensive, blu-ray.

Re:Think the PS3 is one year too early

[wift]

I agree with you but I want to add to your analogy of the ps2+DVD player tie-in. The trouble is people won't consider $500/$600 a low-cost blu-ray player like they may have with the ps2. I think you realize that but didn't put it in your post.

Since Sony is at the top of the price hill they will be the first to drop cost. However, it will be a killer on their stock.

Re:Think the PS3 is one year too early

[Babbster]

In a year, there will be more Blu-Ray titles on the market, players will begin to drop into the range of mainstream consumers, and the technology in the PS3 will be cheaper, allowing Sony to still position the PS3 as both a game machine and affordable blu-ray player.

Here's a flaw to your theory: In that same year, assuming HD-DVD player prices drop, and drop at a rate similar to Blu-Ray, HD-DVD players will not only be cheaper than the PS3 but will also be cheaper than the Xbox 360.

I know the gaming market is big, but it's still not near the home movie market. Those people who decide to upgrade on the home movie front are going to be looking hard at HD-DVD because it's half the cost of Blu-Ray. The PS3 might be able to provide an early-adopting gamer market for Blu-Ray, but unless they can get the cost of that tech and/or licensing down then BR in general is going to crash into niche territory.

A slightly more minor thing is that I don't believe either PS3 version has onboard decoding and 5.1 output of the new audio formats (Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD [lossless 2-channel] and DTS-HD) to be used in Blu-Ray and HD-DVD. That's the kind of issue that could push home theater folks right over the edge, opting for an HD-DVD player because they can get all that for half the price of a similarly equipped BR offering.

Re:Think the PS3 is one year too early

[TheIndifferentiate]

Also, Blu-Ray is not a new form factor. Before the DVD, video was on tape or much larger laser disks. The form/size and, though not visible, new media type of the DVD was perfect. Now, if they say Blu-Ray disks are unscratchable, then I think they will be on to something!

Re:Think the PS3 is one year too early

[Anonymous Coward]

bingo. i don't care. blu-ray, hd-dvd, data written in crayon on the side of a duck, don't care. now in about 5 years I will, once the market is saturated with whatever device wins, I'll START to care, if it's the duck than I get a bonus little wading pool. right now the price of whatever is coming out will be pricey, in the too much way. individual hd-dvd's or blu-rays i'm picturing at $50 a pop (maybe that's stretching it) while the marketing dorks try to figure out how they can pass off the contents being a regular dvd version with an extra 50 trailers.

that and the fact that my TV is new and I'm not looking to replace it until say 2010 or so and it doesn't do HD, hell I only caught onto this colour thing last year.

Re:Think the PS3 is one year too early

[amuro98]

Actually, I did consider the price. First-gen, dedicated blu-ray players have been announced from a few manufacturers in the US$1000 range. So, at $600, the PS3 would be an "inexpensive" blu-ray player, just as the PS2, at about 30000Yen was considered an inexpensive DVD player in the Japanese market where DVD players were easily 50000yen and more.

In a year, I would expect dedicated players to be down to around $500-600, with the PS3 a more manageable $300-400. Hence my statement that the PS3 is one year too early.

Lastly, the early adopter market for blu-ray is going to be the A/V crowd who I suspect aren't going to consider the PS3 ("a toy") as a serious blu-ray player unless Sony works very hard to prove them wrong.

Re:Think the PS3 is one year too early

[masdog]

I think I can sort of understand Sony's strategy with the PS3, but I also think they're too early.

Well, its hard to blame them. Microsoft is pushing up the release schedule of everyone's systems with the release of the Xbox 360. I don't blame Nintendo and Sony for trying to get their systems out before this Christmas to prevent Microsoft from doing to the video game market what it did to the desktop OS market.

This will lead to a rushed and unpolished PS3 that isn't ready for the marketplace, and it will most likely backfire on Sony. If they would just wait a year, they would probably have better success with a cheaper, more polished game system.

I already made this comment !

[denisbergeron]

http://games.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=179036&c id=14837957

The problem with Sony is That the media division control the development division!

They can do thing that can eventualy and may be remove some little part of the profit of the media division !

So Sony will be in 5 (or lest) year a Media company only !(...)

Well if they don't change !

Re:I already made this comment !

[Jearil]

I like exclamation marks too!

They put a lot of emphasis on a sentance, making them stronger!

Sentances should be strong, don't back down from what you're saying!

Wiiii!

Re:I already made this comment !

[Southpaw018]

Actually, that's a very cultural thing. It's not really out of place here, and it's read differently in the author's native French than English, where emphasis can be more effectively communicated through inflection.

Re:I already made this comment !

[Anonymous Coward]

foreign guy overusing exclamation marks: passable
grammar nazi grossly misspelling "sentence" (twice): really bad

Re:I already made this comment !

[Anonymous Coward]

They can do thing that can eventualy and may be remove some little part of the profit of the media division !

English, please.

NeoGeo

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's not forget video game history. The most recent example I can think of that's similar to what the PS3 is making itself out to be is the NeoGeo home system. The system was more expensive than its competitors (Genesis/SNES/TGX-16) and the games were up to $200. The system WAS higher quality. It DID bring the arcade experience home. But guess what? It was way more expensive than the competition and sold poorly (except as a coin-op machine).

I'm looking forward to seeing the PS3 in action on its release. And I'm wondering if the $600 price tag will stick for very long. It will be interesting to see what will happen. Will Sony get poor sales (at least initially)? I think so, but could be wrong. Will reducing the price of the system cost Sony a TON of money because of the major cut they will face at "giving" it away for less than it costs to manufacture, or will the adoption of the system and licensing fees balance it out and make the endeavor still profitable? It's tough to say, but if I was betting on this, I'd bet that Sony may have their first living room console flop.

It seems a lot of bad PR is coming up lately.

I'm not sure that spells the end of Sony in the video game arena, however. Anything can happen and Sony, as a whole, is not doing too shabby (yet).

Only time will tell...

Re:NeoGeo

[Crashmarik]

The price tag is going to stick.

The cost of manufacture is rumored to be somewhere betweeen 700 and 900 bucks. Theres also rumored manufacturing problems. So look for initial streetprice to be at least 600 if not a couple hundred higher from the people that have to have it.

Re:NeoGeo

[Anonymous Coward]

Lets not forget the 3DO!

Re:NeoGeo

[spun]

Yes, let us not forget video game history, for is it not said, "He who forgets history is doomed to repeat it?"

I for one really don't need to waste any more quarters on pac-man.

Re:NeoGeo

[asb]

Let's not forget video game history. The most recent example I can think of that's similar to what the PS3 is making itself out to be is the NeoGeo home system. The system was more expensive than its competitors (Genesis/SNES/TGX-16) and the games were up to $200.

Let's not forget that this happened in early 1990's when computer and console games were played by children only. The console gaming "scene" has changed a lot since then and a large part of that change can be attributed to a certain company that launched a console in 1994 and marketed it to young adults. NeoGeo and other consoles were essentially very expensive toys. These two new consoles sould be placed in the same category as TV's, DVD players and other home entertainment equipment.

Re:NeoGeo

[Rayonic]

The most recent example I can think of that's similar to what the PS3 is making itself out to be is the NeoGeo home system. The system was more expensive than its competitors (Genesis/SNES/TGX-16) and the games were up to $200. The system WAS higher quality.

But, by all accounts, the PS3 is not actually better at running games than the X360. The only thing it's really better at is running certain benchmarks. Heck, by all accounts so far, it has a weaker GPU.

One of the things I find interesting about this...

[kyle (in stereo)]

... situation is that Sony is in nearly the EXACT same position Nintendo was in when they "fell from grace".

Nintendo simply didn't have enough games to push the N64, where as the competition (mainly Sony) did. Now Sony is on the losing stick of console exclusives and with the loss of GTA4 exclusivity, I can only see more titles making the leap as developers realize the 360 cant be taken for granted.

Nintendo used a format that was not in the best interest of the market (cartridges). Blu Ray simply isnt going to be what its made out to be, and with the cheaper PS3 not able to utilize high definition content like the more expensive model, then whats the point in having Blu Ray? Its simply forcing us to pay for something that many wont get to use, or use properly.

Nintendo felt that their name alone would sell games. Sony fits this perfectly.

I wont go as far as to say "SONY IS TEH DOOMED", but it doesnt look good for them in the slightest.

Remember Betamax?

[NetDanzr]

Just to add to your list, with which I fully agree, the wonderful case of Betamax. Sony does have the tendency to deliver truly innovative pieces of technology, but due to their licensing strategy, which you already described, this technology usually goes down the drain. Sony Betamax is a perfect example of that.

Sony's philosophy of overpricing takes a toll with other items as well. For example, I find their computers vastly overpriced, thanks to their short lifespan. Unless you are producing a truly superior product, you shouldn't charge premium prices.

On the other hand, I'd like to mention one Sony product I fell in love with. A long time ago, I got one of their early Sony Clie PDAs. This was at a time before Sony realized they had a gem on their hands. The retail price of the Clie was $99; I guess they were selling it only as a platform for their memory sticks. I'm still using it on a daily basis, and I got a replacement unit, just in case.

Re:Remember Betamax?

[javcrapa]

I am a proud owner of a Sony Clie Nr70v, and it is one fine pda! Works great, good screen, fast for its time, and takes abouse without complaining.

Re:Remember Betamax?

[VagaStorm]

I have a sonyericsson mobile phone, wich I am wery pleased with. When it comes to game consoles, I dont realy whant a nintendo, so sony seems to come out of it as the lesser of 2 evils, atleast if I'm selecting one based on the company making it. But I gues I'm not that anti microsoft, so if when the ps3 comes out the x-box 360 still is the best box, I'll probably get one of those then.

Re:Remember Betamax?

[C0vardeAn0nim0]

I believe the handsets are actually made by ericson. sony only co-brands it and gives ericson a sales channel in japan, plus the "walkman" brand for the MP3 capable models

Re:Remember Betamax?

[Stanistani]

>wich I am wery pleased with
.
.
.
Ensign Chekov?

Re:Remember Betamax?

[Overly Critical Guy]

Betamax didn't die because of licensing. It's a myth that it was a superior technology to VHS. VHS was able to hold a full-length movie when Betamax could not.

Re:Remember Betamax?

[zuvembi]

On the other hand, I'd like to mention one Sony product I fell in love with. A long time ago, I got one of their early Sony Clie PDAs. This was at a time before Sony realized they had a gem on their hands. The retail price of the Clie was $99; I guess they were selling it only as a platform for their memory sticks. I'm still using it on a daily basis, and I got a replacement unit, just in case.

I love my Clie S320. Long battery life, easy to read - and I love the scroll wheel on the side. I'm on my second and I have two for when I destroy/lose/kill this one.

In contrast my high end color super wifi palm sits in my sock drawer.

Re:Remember Betamax?

[Calyth]

About Sony computers that falls apart easily.
Friend of mine, who suffered a spinal problem, leaving him rather short and not being to bear much weight on his back, bought this Sony Vaio PCG-R505TS laptop.
Promptly after a year, the DC socket on the laptop died, and he phoned up Sony about that, and they told him that since it's out of warranty, they would need to replace the motherboard at the cost of $3000CDN.
Eventually, my friend (who was studying as an Electronic Engineer), just soldered a new plug on.
He also had to replace the battery, and now the battery is dying, and things a coming apart.

Re:Remember Betamax?

[krygny]

Betamax?!! Do you remember Elcaset?

They have an uncanny ability to back the wrong horse and keep on ticking. Betamax, El Cassette, 8mm, Mini Disc, Memory Stick, ... ... next up: BlueRay.

Re:Remember Betamax?

[Luigi30]

But VHS had a lower resolution than Betamax.

Re:Remember Betamax?

[Criterion]

I'll take the slightly lower resolution over rewinding *2* tapes *anyday*.

Re:Remember Betamax?

[jamar0303]

There's a secret to this- Their best-made computers are kept in Japan. Buy one Made in Japan (The ones on the US market are labeled "Made in the USA" from Dynamism or some other way and you will find the quality to be MUCH better. For example(from personal expierience)- US model PCG-V505- that broke after a bout of condensation. Japanese model PCG-TR5EB- still works just fine even after spilling water on it (if it didn't, their Japanese 3-year warranty covers that).

Re:Remember Betamax?

[Anonymous Coward]

What are you talking about you could fit two full length movies on a betamax tape no problem....I had the little mermaid and robocop 2 on one tape. Shit I didn't switch over to VHS until after my beta took a crap......I still remember that day. I was sitting there watching Mary Shelly's Frankenstien with Robert Denerio and the screen went blank. I looked at my 200+ recorded collection screamed NOOOOOO! and cursed the gods. Then I went out bought a VHS machine and Mary Shelly's Frankenstien went home and finished watching. I still have a couple beta tapes........it's like 8 tracks you just can't throw'em away.

Re:Remember Betamax?

[Phreakiture]

On the other hand, I'd like to mention one Sony product I fell in love with. A long time ago, I got one of their early Sony Clie PDAs.

Let me add another one to that: I have a 4-year-old Sony Mavica CD camera. Granted, it is a tad sluggish by today's standards, and is "only" 2.1 Mpx, but it takes very nice pictures, and blank media cost $25 for a stack of 50 blank discs. When done, the disc is a pretty-much normal data CD, save for the fact that it is 8cm rather than the more typical 12cm size.

Compared to some newer cameras, it isn't that great, but the fact that I never have to even think about compatibility is fantastic, and that is the real reason I bought it.

BTW, I also own two Sony sound systems; one is a 70's vintage system, which mixes and matches with the best of them (I use it with a Technics turntable, Harman-Kardon speakers, and my Linux workstation); the other is a modern, but modest, home-theatre sound system that also integrates well (used with a JVC satellite receiver and a Mintek DVD player--it came with its own speakers). The latter, and obviously the former, were purchased before the rootkit fiasco.

Re:Remember Betamax?

[KlomDark]

Oooh! You had the Little Mermaid and Robocop 2 on one Beta tape? Wow, can I come hang out with you?

Re:Remember Betamax?

[Overly Critical Guy]

Nobody cared, because you couldn't hold a full-length movie, and the visual difference was small. And VHS had superior sound quality. BetaMax was limited by its initial short tape length. VHS was the superior format--up to 8 hours with small visual quality loss.

Re:Remember Betamax?

[Overly Critical Guy]

Betamax eventually upgraded its tape length, but by then it was too late. It still couldn't match the 8 hours of VHS. Betamax being a superior format is an Internet myth.

Re:Remember Betamax?

[Steve001]

Overly Critical Guy wrote:

Nobody cared, because you couldn't hold a full-length movie, and the visual difference was small. And VHS had superior sound quality. BetaMax was limited by its initial short tape length. VHS was the superior format--up to 8 hours with small visual quality loss.

Another factor that worked against Beta was features. When I was shopping for my first VCR in the early 1980s, the best Beta VCR I could find in my price range could record one event over three days. For the same price, I could buy a VHS VCR that could record four events over 2 weeks.

Although the ability to record 8 hours on a tape was important, the price of the tapes was a significant factor too. A Beta tape that could record for 4.5 hours cost as much as a VHS tape that could record for 6 hours.

My prediction...

[Conspiracy_Of_Doves]

Something tells me that Sony is going to be shoveling gobs of money at certain game development companies for exclusive rights to a couple of truly awesome games so that the only way to play them is to buy a PS3.

Re:My prediction...

[sehlat]

Riiight! $600 for the console and maybe $50-60 each for the two games (possibly) worth getting.

*THEN* what?

Re:My prediction...

[the dark hero]

Read: Final Fantasy XIII, Metal Gear Solid 4

Re:My prediction...

[CelticWhisper]

So we have one series you watch more than you play, and another which you read more than you play?

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for a good plot, but FF has long since become a mockery of itself and while I enjoyed the first MGS well enough, I can only take so many hour-long radio conversations before I say "screw this" and pop in something more interactive.

If those two games are what they consider "compelling," well...I'll be over here if you need me, playing Nintendo.

It would take more games like Shadow of the Colossus (for the visuals and uniqueness), Shin Megami Tensei Nocturne (for the heavily gameplay-oriented approach and its higher-than-usual challenge), or Silent Hill (for scaring the piss out of me without cheap jump-scares) to make me consider a PS3.

I used to like Squaresoft, back in the Xenogears days. They cranked out some fun and unique titles in the '97-'00 era. Parasite Eve, Brave Fencer Musashi, Einhander, Xenogears... Once they decided they could pander to "old-school" gamers (FF9's nostalgia trip) and teenage girls (holy god is that a man or a woman?), they went steadily downhill and have yet to recover. I hope they do at some point. Old FF was fun to some extent. New FF is "watch our shiny FMVs with the most androgynous carbon-based lifeforms you've ever seen."

As for Metal Gear...I know it has a fanatical following, and I'm sure there's a lot to like about MGS, but I've just never been one for either stealth games or secret-government-operative plots. Aside from that, please, shorten the radio conversations. There are more creative and effective ways to develop plot and characters than with interminable dialogue sequences.

It's going to take more than name recognition to get people to shell out the kind of coin Sony is asking for their magic box. MGS4/FF13 are still going to be just the same old gameplay in a prettier shell with better AI/puzzles/fight scenes/whatever. Same progression we've seen from PS1-->PS2 and SNES-->N64-->GC, and while that's enough to get some of the diehards on board, people are going to be wondering what the new box will do differently or remarkably better than what came before. I can play good RPGs on just about any system that's ever been released. I'm sure that there will be good games on PS3, but I don't know that they're going to be really memorable like what the Wii has to offer.

In the way of handhelds, s/PS3/PSP/g, s/Wii/DS/g. And I'm a DV guy, not a sysadmin. Leave my scripts alone. :p

Re:My prediction...

[DDLKermit007]

Amen! Wish I had mod-points right now.

Re:My prediction...

[the dark hero]

Oh trust me. I whole heartedly agree with you(on just about all of it). I just believe that most people will shell out the cash for those games and, while they realise that they just bought a PS3, they might as well get more games.

Shadow of the Colossus is my new favorite title and I'm gunning for the Wii as soon as it is out. Square and Enix produced magnificent titles in the past and together they still tend to do things right. Radiata Stories anyone? I really am starting to hate console exclusivity though. It's far too expensive now to own multiple systems. I currently own a PS2 an Xbox and a GC, but that never posed a problem because they were all affordable at the time I purchased them.

Re:My prediction...

[Conspiracy_Of_Doves]

I didn't say that it would work and convince people to buy, just that they would do it.

Blu Ray is the PS3's Biggest Mistake

[wickedj]

Blu Ray is probably the biggest reason why the PS3 costs so much. It was a mistake for Sony to push that tech into the PS3. I would say over 95% of the consumers interested in the PS3, are not interested in Blu Ray or HD DVD for that matter. Their home systems can't even handle it. The 5% that can, can go out and buy a stand alone Blu Ray player.

Re:Blu Ray is the PS3's Biggest Mistake

[leland242]

I own an HDTV. Sorry everyone.

But you're so right - what do I want? Some half assed BR-DVD player, or a full featured *dedicated* player?

My answer is neither. I have no interest in getting HD-DVD's until the market sorts out the technology.

The PS2 and it's DVD abilities were certainly a boon to the DVD market - of course! You got a game machine and a DVD player for $350 (I forget the exact launch price). Now, this same model is being applied to a technology where only something like 1 in 20 people can really use.

Although, you know people will get it so they can watch "teh high def" on thier '92 Zenith.

Re:Blu Ray is the PS3's Biggest Mistake

[Carrot007]

i bet they (the ps division) did realise this and did not want it in the ps3 but the parent company made them do it becasue they needed to push the format.

ha ha sony loses!

Re:Blu Ray is the PS3's Biggest Mistake

[enitime]

"You got a game machine and a DVD player for $350 (I forget the exact launch price). Now, this same model is being applied to a technology where only something like 1 in 20 people can really use."

You're kind of missing the point. If you have a PS3, and therefore a Blu-Ray player... will the next movie you buy be a DVD or a Blu-Ray? If they cost about the same, why not get the HD movie? After all, you might get a HD TV one day.

And when prices come down on HD-DVD and Blu-Ray and you decide to splurge on a dedicated player, why not pick the Blu-Ray? After all you already have some movies for it.

Sony gets paid every step of the way.

Re:Blu Ray is the PS3's Biggest Mistake

[Jeremy Erwin]

95% this. 5% that.

Come on! You're just pulling numbers out of your ass in an effort to paste over the following argument;

I'm kind of sort of interested in the PS3. I don't have a HDTV. Therefore, the HDTV capability is a waste of circuitry.

Re:Blu Ray is the PS3's Biggest Mistake

[MaverickUW]

If they cost about the same, why not get the HD movie? After all, you might get a HD TV one day.

For starters, they're talking about the cost to make Blu-Ray disks being MORE expensive than most newly released DVD's.

As to your question, did you use this logic back in the Beta days? Yes, you might get an HDTV one day, but why buy the movies now. Most DVD's go down after time on the market, so why not wait until you get the HDTV to buy the movie? Or at least wait till the price drops for all formats of the movie.

Re:Blu Ray is the PS3's Biggest Mistake

[The_Real_Quaid]

"You're kind of missing the point. If you have a PS3, and therefore a Blu-Ray player... will the next movie you buy be a DVD or a Blu-Ray? If they cost about the same, why not get the HD movie?"

Big problem - the movies do not cost the same. MSRP for BluRay movies is $25-$30 standard, while DVD's go on sale for $15.

And I'll go ahead and pre-emptively shoot down any fantasies people may be having about single-disc collections. They won't happen, and even if they do, they will be just as expensive as buying multiple discs. Sorry, but you won't be getting a single-disc LOTR or SW trilogy for the price of a single disc. They will still cost $70+ for the collections.

Re:Blu Ray is the PS3's Biggest Mistake

[wickedj]

Businessweek reported on April 11, 2006 that about 20 million households have HDTV sets. The U.S. population sits at about 300 million via Wikipedia. The U.S. Census puts the average household at about 3.14 people per home. That's about 100 million homes. So the numbers work out to be 80% without HDTV, 20% with. So my original numbers were incorrect. Sorry.

Re:Blu Ray is the PS3's Biggest Mistake

[Jeremy Erwin]

If sony's trying to target the adult gamer market, the numbers might be even more in their favor.

Re:Blu Ray is the PS3's Biggest Mistake

[rnelsonee]

I know prices can (and will) can down between now and November, but in my B&H catalog I got yesterday, they offer one standalone Blu-Ray player. The cost? $1,000. Unless prices are cut in *half* in 6 months, anyone who wants Blu-Ray will just buy a PS3 and not worry about the games.

Sony knows full well that *if* you're interested in Blu-Ray, you're going to shell out for the PS3. It's very small segment, but on that front, Blu-Ray helps Sony.

Re:Blu Ray is the PS3's Biggest Mistake

[leland242]

My point is that I don't want to pay extra for the BR. When DVD's came out, it was all newfangled and scary. Now, it's just some, more expensive, shiny discs.

I don't want to pay for a BR player right now. Not as a stand alone unit or as part of something else.

And unless you missed the first sentence, I have a 50" DLP. I am the target audience for HD-DVD. I don't want it until there is just a single choice.

Re:Blu Ray is the PS3's Biggest Mistake

[9Nails]

Quote: My point is that I don't want to pay extra for the BR. When DVD's came out, it was all newfangled and scary. Now, it's just some, more expensive, shiny discs.

I don't want to pay for a BR player right now. Not as a stand alone unit or as part of something else.

And unless you missed the first sentence, I have a 50" DLP. I am the target audience for HD-DVD. I don't want it until there is just a single choice.

I can't imagine why you wouldn't want to replace your current DVD library with a Blu-Ray format for nearly twice the cost. Then replace the Blu-Ray with HD-DVD in 2008 if Blu-Ray fails like Beta did. And then replace both of those with direct-download services in 2009. And finally replace all that with a 1.6 TB "Holographic Optical Storage" format. You're supposed to be a consumer, so spend, consume! Don't think!

I like exclamation marks too!

[denisbergeron]

I can make more emphasis in HTML !

Re:I like exclamation marks too!

[Anonymous Coward]

You're also probably able to spell "sentence" right, unlike the other fellow.

I know...

[The-Bus]

From the looks of their site, I'm guessing they're running on a Sony server, eh?

Umm...

[fernandoh26]

It looks like the source already self-destructed.... anyone have an alternate link? I'm getting some database error.

Who cares...

[gandy909]

This is a non-issue because -

"Most people, I think, don't even know what a SONY is, so why should they care about it?"

Does anyone have the article?

[EmperorKagato]

I think it has been slashdotted?!

BLUE-RAY is the next UMD

[Higaran]

Given sony's history on media, you'd think they would quit while they weren't ahead, lets see every format they came out with bombed miserably. Betamax Minidisk OpenMD memory sticks UMD I have to give them credit on the UMD, they really tried with that one, then even sent out the specs to the ISO to make it a standard, there were also quite a few studio's on board that the beginging too. Sony makes great stuff, but everyting they have made since the old walkman has really been nitch market stuff, and thats what they are good at, not mainstream products. The PS1, was a good system, and got them into the market, but it wasn't one of those things that eyeryone in the world had to have, the PS2 was a nitch item because it came out as a cheap DVD player when DVD players were really expensive but starting to get more and more popular. The PSP, well that was hot for like two months after it came out, now you can barely give the things away, Sony tried to claim it as this multifunction device against the DS, but it couldn't really do any one thing right, playing a game the controls suck, and if you want to watch a movie an ipod is better. When everyone wanted to use the thing as a web browser, sony tried as much as they could to cripple that function, were as the DS was and always only claimed to be a good gameing system. Sony should just quit trying to develop new tech and just refine current stuff and try to mass market it, like it did with the walkman and the portable cd players, which is what really made them all their money.

bollocks

[theantix]

Sony is not going to self-destruct because their console is priced high on release day, it was simply a tactical decision to attempt to capitalize on the willingness of their most eager fans to spend whatever it takes to get one on or near release day. Recall how with many console releases they can sell out the initial batches to the point where it is difficult to find one in a store for the first while? Sony is avoiding that by pricing their console higher on day one, they will make more money from the initial adopters and run less risk of selling out. THEN, when they have ramped up production and can produce more units at lower lost, then they will drop the price to a more reasonable level and all of a sudden the console looks a lot more affordable in comparison with the less-powered consoles from Nintendo and Microsoft.

At least that is the theory. It could easily backfire, as it seems to be doing judging by comments on this and other sites, by having a backlash against the initial price so strong that it actually turns people away from the console and onto the other platforms instead of them waiting for the price of the PS3 to drop as it inevitably will. But still, people are looking at this scene like it's all based on what happens in November and December of this year instead of looking at it like it's a multi-year game. In 1 year, in 2 years, in 3 -- the initial price of the PS3 will not be a big deal anymore.

Re:bollocks

[The_Real_Quaid]

In 1 year, in 2 years, in 3 -- the initial price of the PS3 will not be a big deal anymore.

It will always be a big deal, because the competing consoles will always be significantly cheaper, and with much larger game libraries and user bases.

It's not like M$ and Nintendo are going to sit on their asses while Sony suddenly starts doing everything right. They smell blood and they will go in for the kill.

Sony's time at the top is over. The chickens have come home to roost. Sony's corruption and incompetence have reached critical mass.

Re:bollocks

[CashCarSTAR]

Sorry to "me too", but I'm going to repeat something you said, because it bears repeating. In big, bold, capital, letters.

MUCH LARGER GAME LIBRARIES AND USER BASES.

Sony assumes that because the PS2 had the largest game library, the PS3 will have the largest game library. This is not true. The game library will go to the machine that has the largest user base, for obvious economic reasons.

If the PS3 jumps out of the gate to a lackluster reaction, barring uber-killer aps (Meaning beyond Halo level), they should expect similar 3rd-party support to what the GameCube received, if that much.

I hear a lot of talk about price cuts in 2008 and things like that...each of the three companies don't have this long. This is a drag race, not a marathon.

And Sony is looking to have spun their wheels.

Re:bollocks

[monopole]

A lot of your assumption relies upon the assumption that volume of production will drive down costs, and that game desgners will refine their skills with regard to the tricky PS3 architecture.
This assumption could operate in reverse. If the PS3 bombs initially, the lack of volume will keep prices high, and keep game designers from developing. Futhermore, if the PS3 bombs, so does BluRay, at which point the platform is tied to a very expensive albatross keeping prices way up there (UMD anyone). In the meantime Nintendo cuts costs and reissues a smaller cheaper improved design.
i.e. PSP versus DS all over again.

Re:bollocks

[Jafafa Hots]

Run the risk of selling out? Yeah, companies hate that. (where's the rolleyes icon when I need it?)

Let me tell you something about the toy/game/videogame industry, one in which I worked at a major corp. for years...

We WANTED things to sell out. Not just for the obvious reason that if you sell all inventory, you've managed to SELL ALL YOUR INVENTORY, which is a good thing, but because the industry is driven by the HIT.

Every season each company wants to have the HIT - the Cabbage Patch Doll, the Furby, the Gameboy Advance, what have you... the item that people are fighting over in aisles to grab the last of, the game that people are buying by the dozen to sell in vans parked outside toys-r-us for a huge markup...

People are herd animals. If they hear that something is so hot, so popular, so in demand that it's hard to get one, then THEY WANT ONE. That's what drove the sales of all of the things I mentioned above. Companies DREAM of being the hot, out of stock, hard to find item of the season. They get tons of free press, they get tons of word of mouth, they get the feeding frenzy, and then even after supplies have been ramped up to more than meet any demand, they can coast on that for a good year or maybe more.

Our industry not only doesn't try NOT to have things sell out, they try to MANUFACTURE that.

I remember one year when we had the hot item of the Christmas season, there we people calling in, writing in, celebrities trying to use their fame to get one, etc... and the rumor going around was that "we had stopped making them because they were selling too much" and variations on that... "They've decreased production to try and stop the run on them." Essentially the same thing as you're saying, in a way.

Boy did we get a chuckle out of that.

Re:bollocks

[theantix]

In every manufacturing process, as time goes on the costs of manufacturing decrease. As volume increases and time passes, the once-newfangled manufacturing processes get more refined and streamlined. As they get better at making the products and make them in larger batches they can drive the costs down. Even if the PS3 ships zero units, in two years all of their gee-whiz-bang components right now like Cell and Blu-Ray will be used in many non-PS3 machines -- so their supply costs will go down to produce the same machine in two years.

That's just how things work -- is that mu assumption or just an observation?

Re:bollocks

[theantix]

Yes, what you describe is the traditional model of selling a time-sensitive product, you do it very well. That is how people do this, this is why Microsoft was all too happy to sell out of 360s when they launched.

HOWEVER.

While they did not, Microsoft _could_ have initially priced the 360s higher and made more money per unit off the early adopters. Once the frenzy died down they would return to "normal" prices and the rest of the people would buy one who wouldn't have bought at the higher initial price.

The advantage to having their product sell out is that it builds hype, which in theory will increase demand in the longer term which will offset the short term reduction in profit margins (or increased loss margins in this case). This is further complicated by the fact that the console companies make lots of their money off game licences, so in addition to the advantage of hype, getting their consoles to consumers early can mean more games and more money in the long run.

But if Sony figured that their former customers would return no matter what, that the PS3 was superior to the competition and would eventually get the same dominant market share they have now -- then pricing high initially makes sense. They make more money
(lose less money) in the short run by shafting the people who want the PS3 at any price, and all the while drive their manufacturing costs down. And then poof, they can compete with the Wii and 360 with a better price point and be better off financially for it.

I don't know if the gamble will pay off, it's a big one. The alternative is for sony to price the machine at an even larger loss than it is now and lose piles and piles of money in the short run, all in order to get the customers they assume they will eventually retain anyhow. If Sony is wrong, then they will lose their dominant position on the market they had with the PS2. But still, fast-forward 1-2 years from now, and the cost of the console in November 2006 won't be a big deal anymore. The only question to me is will the PS3 be a huge success or just a success... the idea that Sony will self-destruct over this is ridiculous.

Re:bollocks

[RRRobotHouse]

This makes me think that Sony priced their console correctly. When the Xbox 360 came out, I imagine that the average price paid for per unit was north of $500. I think Sony is indeed pricing this console to the early adopters and making them pay through the nose and that may eventually subsidize the price for the rest of us further down the road. Same thing with concert tickets. Tickets are sold at the box office for ~$65. What happens? Scalpers pick them up and end up selling them for the true market value.

Re:bollocks

[poot_rootbeer]

In 1 year, in 2 years, in 3 -- the initial price of the PS3 will not be a big deal anymore.

In three years, when the PS3 price has fallen to $399 for the premium bundle, the Xbox 360 bundle will have fallen to $249, and the Wii will be selling for $149. The sword cuts both ways.

Tunnel Vision strikes again

[Frobozz0]

Anti-SONY Alarmists: Remove your horse blinders and take a look around. Let's take a step back and look at this again.

Price:

While I will wholeheartedly agree that the price is about $100 too much on the PS3, is it really THAT big of a deal? Nope. Everyone planning on getting one before the announcement will continue to do so. They're early adopters who pay for the masses to buy at cheaper cost. How is this different from any other product launch?

Convergence:

My comment about horse blinders is appropriate here, because nobody is seeing the pink elephant in the room. Or, should I say blu-Elephant. Blu-ray is the next generation format for watch-at-home movies. So is HD-DVD, as some would argue. There's only one catch-- MILLIONS of blu-ray readers will already be in the clutches of PS3 owners. They'll get a next generation HD format with the bonus of a next-generation game machine. Stand alone players will cost $600 to $800 at the time the PS3 launches but you won't get a game machine with those. And because this all comes standard on BOTH the low and high end PS3, it's a winner. If this was optional equipment I wouldn't be singing the same tune. HD-DVD will not win the format war because SONY will have blu-ray standard on the PS3. End of story.

Proprietary what?

Some complaints have arisn about SONY's stance on proprietary technologies. Well taken. And while I am the last person to say ATRAC was a good idea, please point out the problems in the PS3 for me. I don't see them. Memory sticks come from many vendors. Bluetooth is a communication standard. Blu-ray is a movie standard backed by almost the entire movie industry. USB? Check. HDMI? Yep. Also a standard.

Market Timing

Microsoft has had a pretty good launch with the 360. They haven't done much wrong here. I'm amazed by that as much as anyone else. They have a cool UI, online distribution, etc. But so will SONY. The difference is that people with gaming PC's won't see much original (or better looking) content on a 360. They'll get unique titles on a PS3. SONY has sat back and looked at what was good and bad with the 360 (and Wii) and made their priorities known. While there may be a people who can't affor gaming rigs buying 360's, I would challenge that PS3 owners will own more games per console.

My point is that SONY isn't making a lot of mistakes with this launch aside from the costs of a blu-ray movie trojan horse. They'll have a great system, some great titles, and probably the same run-up time to first-class titles like any other new platform launch. Sure they could have better PR ... but I don't think that matters as much as some people are claiming.

Re:Tunnel Vision strikes again

[lbbros]

Also I add... the CELL processor, that aside being one of the most interesting CPUs up to date, has its specs open.

Re:Tunnel Vision strikes again

[ZombieRoboNinja]

"Blu-ray is the next generation format for watch-at-home movies. So is HD-DVD, as some would argue. There's only one catch-- MILLIONS of blu-ray readers will already be in the clutches of PS3 owners."

To summarize:
Many people will buy the PS3 because they will want Blu-Ray.
People will want Blu-Ray because it will beat out HD-DVD.
It will beat out HD-DVD because many people will buy the PS3.

I'm not sure if this technically counts as a logical fallacy or just a vicious cycle. But in either case, I don't buy the timing. People won't buy PS3s en masse UNTIL Blu-Ray catches on, so you can't count on PS3 sales to give Blu-Ray the edge over HD-DVD.

Re:Tunnel Vision strikes again

[Zontar_Thing_From_Ve]

While I will wholeheartedly agree that the price is about $100 too much on the PS3, is it really THAT big of a deal?

It just might be. My brother and sister-in-law have 3 boys. They own every freakin' game system there is and at least 2 if not 3 of every portable one because God knows we can't have the kids unable to play a game for even a second. At the price listed for the PS3, I can say with certainty that there is no chance at all my brother and sister-in-law will be buying it for their kids.

Memory sticks come from many vendors.
Perhaps you are confusing memory sticks with memory cards . They're not compatible you know. Where exactly are these vendors of which you speak? I think maybe Crucial, Kingston and the like might make knock offs, but just to try to ruin the format even further, Sony then took a memory stick and put some sort of DRM crap on it to keep you from copying anything you put on it. Yeah, that really made the format take off.

Re:Tunnel Vision strikes again

[Anonymous Coward]

While I will wholeheartedly agree that the price is about $100 too much on the PS3, is it really THAT big of a deal? Nope. Everyone planning on getting one before the announcement will continue to do so.

Obviously cost doesn't mean much to you, but it means alot to others. Many potential buyers live in countries where something like a game console's cost burns a hole in the pocket several times larger than it does for the average American or Japanese buyer, where it already costs alot. $600US for a game console makes me feel ill and I'm not alone.

Re:Tunnel Vision strikes again

[caffeinatedOnline]

Price: While I will wholeheartedly agree that the price is about $100 too much on the PS3, is it really THAT big of a deal? Nope. Everyone planning on getting one before the announcement will continue to do so. They're early adopters who pay for the masses to buy at cheaper cost. How is this different from any other product launch?

I disagree with you. I think that the PS3 is about $300 too high. $600 for a non crippled version is rediculous. I was planning on getting one, but after the announcement there is no way. Not that I can't afford one, but because there is no way I am going to pay that much for a machine to play games on that could have a betamax built in.

Convergence: My comment about horse blinders is appropriate here, because nobody is seeing the pink elephant in the room. Or, should I say blu-Elephant. Blu-ray is the next generation format for watch-at-home movies. So is HD-DVD, as some would argue. There's only one catch-- MILLIONS of blu-ray readers will already be in the clutches of PS3 owners. They'll get a next generation HD format with the bonus of a next-generation game machine. Stand alone players will cost $600 to $800 at the time the PS3 launches but you won't get a game machine with those. And because this all comes standard on BOTH the low and high end PS3, it's a winner. If this was optional equipment I wouldn't be singing the same tune. HD-DVD will not win the format war because SONY will have blu-ray standard on the PS3. End of story.

Wow.... you do realize that HD-DVD players are out now priced below $500? And you do realize that there are many more people out there that watch movies on HD TV's then there are that play games on them? Seems to stand to reason then that when the average consumer walks into an electronic store to buy a HD video player, that spending less then $500 is going to sound pretty good versus spending $1000+ for a blu-ray player? You assume that the players are going to cost $600-$800 in 6 months. At that time, HD-DVD will have lowered as well. 2 identical (to the average joe) products, one hundreds of dollars lower in price. Which one do you think that they are going to choose?

Market Timing Microsoft has had a pretty good launch with the 360. They haven't done much wrong here. I'm amazed by that as much as anyone else. They have a cool UI, online distribution, etc. But so will SONY. The difference is that people with gaming PC's won't see much original (or better looking) content on a 360. They'll get unique titles on a PS3. SONY has sat back and looked at what was good and bad with the 360 (and Wii) and made their priorities known. While there may be a people who can't affor gaming rigs buying 360's, I would challenge that PS3 owners will own more games per console.

And people with a PS3 won't see much original or better looking content then on a PC. Most publishers will release high selling games on the PC as well. There is not much known about Sony's attempt at an online marketplace/community for the PS3. There is, though, on the 360, and with the release of Live Anywhere, it seems to be growing into the ultimate online community.

Re:Tunnel Vision strikes again

[YU Nicks NE Way]

It is a classical logical fallacy: assuming the consequence.

Re:Tunnel Vision strikes again

[The_Real_Quaid]

"Everyone planning on getting one before the announcement will continue to do so".

Apparently you missed the thundering herd of people abandoning their PS3 plans in favor of Wii and Xbox 360.

Who is wearing the horse blinders again? Also I find it rather amusing that you write SONY with all caps.

I smell a plant.


"MILLIONS of blu-ray readers will already be in the clutches of PS3 owners. They'll get a next generation HD format with the bonus of a next-generation game machine."

Again, this is assuming that those MILLIONS actually want BluRay and PS3 at all, when they are tempted by competing products with much better prices.

Both HD-DVD and BluRay are a waste of time, but nonetheless, HD-DVD is already off to a big head start. The prices will drop faster than BluRay, and let's not forget that M$ has an add-on device for X360 which will still keep the price lower than PS3. Atleast with the X360 route you have a CHOICE whether to be flogged or not.

Let's also not forget that NEC backs HD-DVD while Sony backs BluRay. NEC is a true technology leader and pioneer, they will outweigh the cash-strapped Sony in this fight.


"They have a cool UI, online distribution, etc. But so will SONY."

Don't put the cart in front of the horse just yet. Sony has only announce plans, they don't have anything to show for it yet. If precedent is any indication, they will come up short against Xbox Live.


I would challenge that PS3 owners will own more games per console.

That's quite an assumption. For $600 people could get a Wii and 8 games, or an X360 with 6 games.


"The difference is that people with gaming PC's won't see much original (or better looking) content on a 360. They'll get unique titles on a PS3."

OK, by now it's obvious that you are a lunatic fanboy, or an astroturfer.

The unique games will be on Wii, not PS3. The best looking games will be on X360, as we learned from this E3. For all of Sony's hype, they won't be able to surpass X360, because X360 developers are a generation ahead and most Japanese devs haven't figured out how to use a pixel shader yet.

Re:Tunnel Vision strikes again

[rrdm2k]

The low end PS3 (with no HDMI) may not display all blu-ray DVDs in HD. Once movie studios enable copy control on blu-ray discs, they will only display in HD from an HDMI port.

Sony have stated that they won't enable it because obviously they want the format to take off and for everyone to enjoy the full HD quality of blu-ray discs. It's also debatable who exactly is going to pirate films like resident evil if they haven't already done so. Sony Pictures blu-ray DVDs will play in HD but no other studio has commented on this yet:
http://money.cnn.com/2006/05/11/technology/e3_kaz/ index.htm?section=money_latest

If you buy a PS3 at $499, then you get games and sony blu-ray DVDs in HD, but not necessarily other movie studio DVDs.

Considering that the MPAA and most studios take such a hard stance against piracy, I reckon they might just enable the copy control on their DVDs. Who exactly wants to buy a blu-ray player that'll only play Sony Pictures DVDs in HD?

Re:Tunnel Vision strikes again

[Anonymous Coward]

Obviously cost doesn't mean much to you,

Yea, I think this AstroTurf pay would easily cover the additional cost.

Re:Tunnel Vision strikes again

[Maxo-Texas]

It's amazing how they have gotten the price so high without people complaining.

$600 isn't $100 too high. $400 for the Xbox-360 was $150 too high for a game CONSOLE (that's not a real PC). The early consoles cost about 2 days minimum wage to buy (so about $60 bucks). The current consoles cost over 10 days of minimum wage. This sony comes in at almost 14 days of minimum wage work.

From 2 days work to 14 days work is a HUGE increase.

I can customize a low-end $300 fry's pc into 15 months ago state of the art for about $300 and 2 hours (silent fan ($12), upgrade ram to 1gig ($29), new video card ($219), new power-supply ($29), $160 gig hard drive($39) ) and have a blazing PC for $600-- and it's also a PC.

Re:Tunnel Vision strikes again

[The-Bus]

There's only one catch-- MILLIONS of blu-ray readers will already be in the clutches of PS3 owners. They'll get a next generation HD format with the bonus of a next-generation game machine. Stand alone players will cost $600 to $800 at the time the PS3 launches but you won't get a game machine with those. And because this all comes standard on BOTH the low and high end PS3, it's a winner. If this was optional equipment I wouldn't be singing the same tune. HD-DVD will not win the format war because SONY will have blu-ray standard on the PS3. End of story.

Re: The format war.

First off, the low-end PS3 does not have HDMI output. If the studios choose to enable the ICT (on a per-title basis) Blu-Ray movies will NOT be watchable at full HD resolution. At best, you get 720p resolution over component cables. At worst, you get DVD resolution, making your investment into a movie player worthless.

Second, Blu-Ray is an extremely new and extremely untested technology. To compare it to DVD ca. fall 2000 is a fallacy.

A. Timeline. By the time the PS2 came out, DVD players were not $50, but the format had been established for years. You could buy thousands of DVDs. When the PS3 is out, Blu-Ray discs (BRDs) will be out for a few months, and you can buy maybe a 100 titles. Selection will be similar to UMD, and we know how well that does.

B. Incremental benefits. DVD offered clear benefits over VHS.

DVD benefits over the previous format winner (VHS):

• Better picture and audio quality without the need of expensive equipment upgrade.
  
• More convenience than the previous tape-based format: chapter skipping, etc.
  
• Extra features beyond just the basic film on most titles.
  
• Easier storage of packaging for consumers and retailers.
  
• Considerably cheaper pricing for new releases (remember, VHS had the rental window).
  

How many of those benefits are delivered by BRD and HD-DVD? Zero. Read through that list again. If anything, BRD/HD-DVD will introduce higher pricing for new releases ($5-$10 more on average) and have more DRM.

To suggest that people are buying PS3s as replacements for Blu-Ray players is nothing short of insane. For years, Blu-Ray and HD-DVD will be fringe technology enjoyed by the same people who have D-VHS tapes, SACD players, Kaleidescapes, laserdiscs, and 7.1 surround systems today. Consider that the top selling movies on HD-DVD barely crack the top 600 DVDs sold for the day. This will continue once BRD players hit the street.

Look at Amazon's page on the BDP-S1, (Sony's flagship BRD player) under "What do customers ultimately buy after viewing items like this?"

- 5% buy the Sony player
- 23% buy the HD-DVD player
- 63% buy a regular DVD player

That to me says, very strongly... "Oh... movies on HD are here. Wait, I don't care."

You seem to share the same blind optimism that Sony has.

Re:Tunnel Vision strikes again

[aafiske]

"While I will wholeheartedly agree that the price is about $100 too much on the PS3, is it really THAT big of a deal? Nope. Everyone planning on getting one before the announcement will continue to do so. They're early adopters who pay for the masses to buy at cheaper cost. How is this different from any other product launch?"

This is untrue. I make plenty of money, I am an early adapter, and I buy video games and video game systems at the drop of a hat, if there's something that I like on it. The price tag for the non-gimped PS3 is really, really high. There's no way I'm buying a cheaper system that is unupgradable to a better version. I am the target audience, and I no longer want it at that price.

Re:Tunnel Vision strikes again

[Ravatar]

That's quite an assumption. For $600 people could get a Wii and 8 games, or an X360 with 6 games.

You mean a basic XBOX 360, and 3 games (that is.. if you dont want a memory card and another controller).

Re:Tunnel Vision strikes again

[DragonWriter]

The early consoles cost about 2 days minimum wage to buy (so about $60 bucks). The current consoles cost over 10 days of minimum wage. This sony comes in at almost 14 days of minimum wage work.

The Atari VCS (later "2600") was released in 1977 at a purchase price of $199; 1977 federal non-farm minimum wage was $2.30. Assuming an 8 hour standard workday, the price of the Atari console at launch was just over 86.5 hours, about 11 days (not 2), at minimum wage.

The Sony Playstation 3 will have a launch price of $600, 2006 federal [unified] minimum wage is $5.15 (after the longest period with no increase [since 1997] since the creation of the federal minimum wage). The PS3 launch price will be 116.5 hours of minimum wage work, or almost 15 days.

But minimum wage has not kept pace with inflation; the 2005 inflation-adjusted price of the Atari console would be $645 -- more than that of the Playstation 3.

Not that this really matters; historical console prices are mostly irrelevant. The question is really is the PS3 too expensive compared to present day alternatives, and the answer to that requires assumptions about how consumers will perceive the prospective advantage of Blu-ray, the launch library, other consoles, etc.

I can customize a low-end $300 fry's pc into 15 months ago state of the art for about $300 and 2 hours (silent fan ($12), upgrade ram to 1gig ($29), new video card ($219), new power-supply ($29), $160 gig hard drive($39) ) and have a blazing PC for $600-- and it's also a PC.

Sure, you can. And it still won't play blu-ray disks, or any console-exclusive games, etc.

Since it won't be a perfect substitute for a PS3 (or any other console), doing so wouldn't necessary remove the incentive to by a console. Which is, after all, an entertainment luxury item many of whose purchasers will already have one or more gaming PCs, one or more DVD players, etc.

Re:Tunnel Vision strikes again

[gozar]

Or, should I say blu-Elephant. Blu-ray is the next generation format for watch-at-home movies. So is HD-DVD, as some would argue. There's only one catch-- MILLIONS of blu-ray readers will already be in the clutches of PS3 owners. They'll get a next generation HD format with the bonus of a next-generation game machine. Stand alone players will cost $600 to $800 at the time the PS3 launches but you won't get a game machine with those. And because this all comes standard on BOTH the low and high end PS3, it's a winner.

I wouldn't count the low end as a blu-ray player, since the lack of HDMI will be a deal breaker for some. Couple this with the fact that most people can't tell the difference between standard defintion and high definition:

* Close to one in four (28%) of HDTV owners reported that they did not get any special equipment from their service provider to watch HDTV channels because the picture quality was already improved with the purchase of an HDTV.

* 23% of HDTV owners did not invest in special equipment to watch HDTV channels because a message at the beginning of the programs they watch tells them that those programs are being broadcast in HD.

You start to realize that a majority of people do not care about Blu-ray or HD DVD, and they'll both probably fail.

There is also the problem of plugging the equipment into your TV. I only have component video connectors on my HDTV, and am already out of inputs even though my JVC Receiver will switch inputs. I've got a DVD player, HD Cable Box, and a XBox using my three available inputs. To use my PS2 or Gamecube with component video, I have to start unplugging things. And those are problems with last generation equipment, which most people don't have the HD cables for. The current generation will just exasperate the problem. What happened to using something like Firewire to send audio/video/control signals through your AV equipment?

Blu-ray will not save the PS3. In fact, I feel that Sony will pull a Microsoft, and artificially restrict the supply so the PS3 is guaranteed to sell out this fall. They do not want to face what happened with the PSP launch and not sell out.

Re:Tunnel Vision strikes again

[Anonymous Coward]

There is a fault with the arguement on price. There are two types of people that I can think of that typically buy a game console.
The first type are parents who buy a game console for their kids, and the huge price tag will be a major deterrent. The typical Mom and Pop (like myself) will not buy a Sony playstation, when there exists much cheaper game consoles with the same games out there.

The second type is your typical single geek (geek in the good sense) who has the disposable
income to indulge in such purchases. They typically own multiple game consoles.

I suppose there is a third type that is more of a casual gamer. IE The type of person who likes to play games occassionaly but it is not their life (ie they own one console at most). I suspect they wouldn't pay such a high price for a game console either.

As for Blue-Ray. It is irrelevant to me at this time. It is caught up in another beta-vhs war right now. I don't own a high def TV, and I won't until the price of HDTVs and HD Cable content comes down (price issue again). It will take a while for a winner in the format war to emerge.

Even when a winner emerges, you know they are going to charge a premium for the HD content over the price of regular DVD content (DVDs aren't going anywhere for several years). I have no intention on paying for overpriced videos. Especially when they take the same old grainy films, and put them on HD discs with not much perceptible difference in quality from regular DVDs (Newer movies will likely benefit).

I believe that price is a major factor in the purchasing decision. I won't bet my money on a technology that has a good chance of becoming obsolete (BlueRay vs HD-DVD). If I buy a console it will be for the best price and the best games that my family and I can enjoy.
From what I've seen so far, Sony does not fit the bill.
Cheers.

Re:Tunnel Vision strikes again

[drew]

HD-DVD will not win the format war because SONY will have blu-ray standard on the PS3. End of story.

HD-DVD will not win the format war because the "format war" is going to consist of a couple of rich kids arguing inthe corner while the rest of the world collectively ignores them. It doesn't matter who wins because they're both losers...

Re:Tunnel Vision strikes again

[Anonymous Coward]

All true, except that Sony has made one fatal mistake.

It is my belief that the average consumer is simply not interested in HD films. The difference in quality is negligable (unless you are using a projector or some badass 60" plasma), and the costs involved (new player, tv, re-buying movies) make it irrelevant to all but the most hardcore of film fans / gadget freaks.

Sony are banking on people wanting Blu-Ray, they think its PS2 / DVD all over again, without considering the fact that maybe HD is one step too far for the consumer (as it was with DVD-Audio).

I want a PS3 for the games, I dont want $300 of the payment going on a stupid technology I have absolutely no interest in.

Re:Tunnel Vision strikes again

[mparker762]

You seem to be under the delusion that the basic X360 costs $420 (it's $300, even the non-crippled version is $400). Or that x360 games cost $100 a pop. Granted, the original poster's math was off a bit as well, unless he was assuming some of those games were bought used, which may be a reasonable assumption since it's been out awhile and there is a decent used game selection at your local gamestop.

Re:Tunnel Vision strikes again

[Ullteppe]

Convergence: My bet would be that neither HD-DVD nor Blue-Ray will win. Rather, the masses are asses and wouldn't know the difference between HD and SD if it hit them on the head. There's a lot of people out there right now who bought "HD-ready" TVs and think they are watching HD right now, without buying a HD tuner... Besides, a well made DVD is actually pretty good, even on my 37" LCD. I'm betting that a good DVD will still be better than a crappy mastered HD disk, and there will be quite a lot of those. Remember SACD and DVD-audio? Neither of them have been a raging success, have they? People saw the difference between DVD and VHS (besides, they were tired of rewinding the tape). Regardless of the hype, HD video is not that compelling.

Market timing: Most people do not have gaming PCs anymore (if they have ever had them). They are too expensive and too difficult to set up. If anything, MS is making a mistake in targeting the hardcore gamers so much. The people who buy millions of game consoles are ordinary families who want to play Madden, FIFA, Buzz etc. Actually, here Sony has done a much better job, turning out much better games for the PS2 lately than Microsoft's first bunch have been. Party games like Buzz, Singstar and EyeToy appeal to the masses. The hardcore gamers are in the minority, Sony would not have sold 100M+ PS2s if they were the main audience.

Re:Tunnel Vision strikes again

[Anonymous Coward]

This is all fine and good assuming one thing: People actually buy the console-- and not the cheap version either. The problem is this: among casual players, very few will get the ps3. Why? Way too much, and nothing new, and you can get the same graphics on the 360. The bonus? I get a blu-ray player. Whoop-de. I don't own any blu-ray discs, and DVD's are good already. Maybe you'll win some people over in the Movie geek x casual game player, but I'd contend that it's a small category.

Second, among hardcore gamers, it's way too expensive. Why? Because half of the games I can get on the 360, the wii looks more fun, and both are way cheaper. I think some people have forgotten how expensive new consoles are. The obvious price: the cost of the console, is not the only price you'll pay! you'll also need (likely at least) another controller and a game, and maybe a memory card or something... which really increases the cost of a console. So new adopters are going to be paying not 600, but more like 700 or 750, or more. It's crazy!

Furthermore, you're forgetting that most consoles don't do price drops in the first year. Even then, the price drop usually isn't significant. In the PS3's case, it's going to need to be at least 100, but will likely need to be even more.

Sony's really going to have to do something special to get this to work. Costs too much, not a lot of great games initially, running up against 2 cheaper consoles that appear at least as fun (360) or very original (wii). What does Sony's console have? A blu-ray player. For an extra $200. And if it's as good as the PS2's DVD player, then we all have something very excited to look forward to. =(

Re:Tunnel Vision strikes again

[Maxo-Texas]

I agree with some of your points-- especially those on the minimum wages tho I was not going back as far as you did.

However, I had no problem finding references to lower prices for game consoles in the 1970s by googling for "console game history prices".

1974 - "By Christmas, Atari's US$100 home PONG console becomes Sears biggest selling item"

1979 - Channel F System II $99.95.

---
(The games on the Channel F system were $20 tho)

I remembered consoles being $100 when I was growing up in the 70's and 80's.

I remembered consoles being $200 to $300 in the late 90's (which is the period I was thinking of in the parent post).

Computers were $3000 in 1974 (Sol 3000 and Altair type) and would cost $12,000 today if they had gone up as much as game consoles. Since consoles are a mass produced identical computer, I would expect that they would be cheaper. I think the early price you quote was a bit of an extreme more like the first DVD players (which would fit with it being the first blu-ray players). But all I want in a game console is to play games. I don't want to also play movies.

I would expect that the game console doesn't have the highest quality electronic parts and you are going to get noise (buzzing, screen lines) as soon as you hook it up with your entire system (i.e. your tv, dvd recorder, cable box, and stereo system). So I want my consoles to be just a console and my dvd players (or blue ray players/HD players) to be just that and I expect no noise when I hook them up.

Besides all that, I have no intention of buying bluray or HD. On my 55" screen, 480p (and 720p from my upconverting player) look super sharp. The DRM on bluray and HD are ridiculous and unsupportable. The movie titles for Bluray and HD are going to be $20+ (vs $7.50 for DVD). The quality difference is minimal.

I foresee another Sony failed proprietary standard.

(And p.s. I *really* hate Sony for some terrible customer service they gave me in 2001 and I haven't bought a single Sony product since then. They are the only company in 45 years that has pissed me off this badly).

---

I think minimum wage should probably be on the order of $7.00 to $8.00 (which is what the mcdonalds in my area seem to start people at).

Re:Tunnel Vision strikes again

[thatguywhoiam]

Apparently you missed the thundering herd of people abandoning their PS3 plans in favor of Wii and Xbox 360. Who is wearing the horse blinders again? Also I find it rather amusing that you write SONY with all caps. I smell a plant.

You smell the marijuana you are smoking. What thundering herds? The Wii hasn't shipped yet! Slashdot is hardly a large demographic. Go outside. (And by the way, "SONY" is how the brand name is traditionally written.)

Both HD-DVD and BluRay are a waste of time, but nonetheless, HD-DVD is already off to a big head start. The prices will drop faster than BluRay, and let's not forget that M$ has an add-on device for X360 which will still keep the price lower than PS3. Atleast with the X360 route you have a CHOICE whether to be flogged or not.

Ah, yes, of course. The choice to buy the additional HD-DVD drive, the optional WiFi, the optional digital output for video. This is a choice, I'm not being facetious. But you're gonna pay either way, BluRay or HD-DVD. It nets out the same if you ask me.

Let's also not forget that NEC backs HD-DVD while Sony backs BluRay. NEC is a true technology leader and pioneer, they will outweigh the cash-strapped Sony in this fight.

NEC vs SONY? Are you for real? WTF has NEC ever done that is innovative in this area?

How about: let's not forget, 4 of the 5 major studios have gone with BluRay, and that includes Disney (and Pixar). That fight is far from over.

Don't put the cart in front of the horse just yet. Sony has only announce plans, they don't have anything to show for it yet. If precedent is any indication, they will come up short against Xbox Live.

You speak nonsense. There is no precedent. Sony has never launched a service like this before. Cart before horse indeed.

That's quite an assumption. For $600 people could get a Wii and 8 games, or an X360 with 6 games.

Again, you make your own point without knowing it. You don't know the price of the Wii, it isn't announced. Its probably true but you are assuming and that is not a good way to make such an argument.

OK, by now it's obvious that you are a lunatic fanboy, or an astroturfer. The unique games will be on Wii, not PS3. The best looking games will be on X360, as we learned from this E3. For all of Sony's hype, they won't be able to surpass X360, because X360 developers are a generation ahead and most Japanese devs haven't figured out how to use a pixel shader yet.

Haven't figured out...... wow. Just... wow. I need to walk that off.

I dont even know what to say to that. Now I feel stupid for having wasted so much text on a ambulatory leafblower such as yourself. Look, I'm glad you like your Xbox 360, I like mine too, but clearly you weren't paying attention or lack the capacity to do so.

Re:Tunnel Vision strikes again

[CFTM]

Minor typo, it's actually a consequent and not a consequence. I've made the same mistake on many an occasion :)

Re:Tunnel Vision strikes again

[MachDelta]

What thundering herds?

This one?

Re:Tunnel Vision strikes again

[Nazmun]

Hrm, read what you quoted:

Couple this with the fact that most people can't tell the difference between standard defintion and high definition:

        * Close to one in four (28%) of HDTV owners reported that they did not get any special equipment from their service provider to watch HDTV channels because the picture quality was already improved with the purchase of an HDTV.

These people can't tell the difference betweeen standard and hd because they haven't seen the difference. The HDTV might be upscaling the image and it probably looks better then what they are used to seeing. These people think they are getting better images without getting truly better pictures. Now imagine what might happen when they actually get hd input for their hdtv's.

Just because people incorrectly assume they are getting something better doesn't mean they won't notice when they truly get something better.

Re:Tunnel Vision strikes again

[Keith Russell]

Perhaps you are confusing memory sticks with memory cards. They're not compatible you know. Where exactly are these vendors of which you speak? I think maybe Crucial, Kingston and the like might make knock offs...

Memory Stick media is available from Sony, SanDisk, and Lexar.

...but just to try to ruin the format even further, Sony then took a memory stick and put some sort of DRM crap on it to keep you from copying anything you put on it.

MagicGate DRM is enforced on files if and only if the write operation specifically requests it. Normal file operations on your PC/camera/whatever don't get locked. The only hardware/software combo that utilized MagicGate was the first generation of Memory Stick-based Network Walkman products with SonicStage. Funny how those tanked in the open market...

[<sarcasm>]Yeah, that really made the format take off.[</sarcasm>]

Memory Stick was hobbled by two things: One, the extravagant licensing fees (can't have a Sony format without 'em!); and two, before Memory Stick Pro, transfer speeds sucked, the largest supported capacity was 128MB, and, except a few Vaio notebooks, host devices weren't upgradable to Pro. By the time the license fees came down to earth and the Pro format permeated Sony's hardware, the ship had already sailed.

Re:Tunnel Vision strikes again

[Anonymous Coward]

Seems to stand to reason then that when the average consumer walks into an electronic store to buy a HD video player, that spending less then $500 is going to sound pretty good versus spending $1000+ for a blu-ray player? You assume that the players are going to cost $600-$800 in 6 months. At that time, HD-DVD will have lowered as well. 2 identical (to the average joe) products, one hundreds of dollars lower in price. Which one do you think that they are going to choose? The average consumer will probably be looking for the next thing in the "DVD" section of the electronics store, not the video games section. So, more than likely they'll just see the standalone Blu-ray and HD-DVD players.

Re:Tunnel Vision strikes again

[Cyno]

Proprietary what?

Software and DRM. People always seem to brush over this, like its not obvious. DRM will essentially make this box a toaster for cheap plastic disks. I'd much rather put my money towards a gaming computer.

Re:Tunnel Vision strikes again

[DragonWriter]

The 1979 Channel F was after price cuts due to competition with the 1977 Atari 2600. The launch price of the Channel F was higher ($169.95 in 1976, per Wikipedia), and the other of the first three cartridge-based consoles (the Magnavox Odyssey) was laucnhed in 1972 but I don't see a launch price anywhere. Other early consoles were also pricey at launch -- the 1980 $299 Intellivision for instance.

I remembered consoles being $100 when I was growing up in the 70's and 80's.

Sure, but those weren't launch prices.

I remembered consoles being $200 to $300 in the late 90's (which is the period I was thinking of in the parent post).

Yeah, but in the late 1990s, you are mostly talking about consoles that have been on the market for years, and were selling at or below their early 1990s launch prices (considering inflation, below in either case) like the PlayStation and N64.

Re:Tunnel Vision strikes again

[CapnRob]

Does anybody else see the circular logic here? "the PS3 will succeed because it has Blu-Ray, and Blu-Ray will succeed because it's in the PS3."

Re:Tunnel Vision strikes again

[nutshell42]

Apparently you missed the thundering herd of people abandoning their PS3 plans in favor of Wii and Xbox 360.

That is more or less irrelevant as long as Sony can sell their consoles as fast as they can produce them. The price is Ok (from a business POV) as long as they announce a lower price by E3 '07. Microsoft had to sell at $299/$399 because those analysts criticising MS didn't see that it was less about making money and more about making a point. I assume Sony did a quick calculation, saw that the 360 would sell out Xmas 06 no matter what, and decided to milk the early adopters instead of trading money for future market share.

Both HD-DVD and BluRay are a waste of time, but nonetheless, HD-DVD is already off to a big head start. The prices will drop faster than BluRay, and let's not forget that M$ has an add-on device for X360 which will still keep the price lower than PS3.

And you're basing all this on what? Now who's the fanboy?

Let's also not forget that NEC backs HD-DVD while Sony backs BluRay. NEC is a true technology leader and pioneer, they will outweigh the cash-strapped Sony in this fight.

Sony has movies, lots of movies, NEC doesn't. NEC is important but it's a hardware company. To cite NEC as the big reason HD-DVD will prevail is not very convincing.

OK, by now it's obvious that you are a lunatic fanboy, or an astroturfer.

Did you actually read your post? First rule of astroturfing: Accuse others of being the astroturfers. So could you please cut back on the accusations and improve your reasoning?

The unique games will be on Wii, not PS3.

Yes, the Wii will have lots of unique games, especially Nintendo's unbeatable first-party support but Nintendo tries to pitch the Wii as a console you buy in addition to a PS3/360 or as a console you buy if you otherwise wouldn't buy a console at all. Considering the 360's rather limited library if you don't like fps/sports games the fact that you can buy (most likely) a 360 *and* a Wii for the price of a PS3 is actually quite convincing (to overcome Sony's own exclusives, FFXIII, MGS, etc come to mind), therefore Moore himself proposed that you do just that

The best looking games will be on X360, as we learned from this E3

?? Do you have any non-fanboyism induced fever dreams to prove that. Everything I've heard said that at this point there's virtually no difference between the two

most Japanese devs haven't figured out how to use a pixel shader yet.

If everything else fails, play the jingoism card.

Re:Tunnel Vision strikes again

[YU Nicks NE Way]

Yeah, but it's tough to pull off the logic Nazi pose with phat phingers...

Thanks; you're right, it's "assuming the consequent".

Re:Tunnel Vision strikes again

[Anonymous Coward]

wow you and the guy who replied to you aren't too strong with reading comprehension, are you?

read the guy's comments again -- maybe you do still disagree but you've obviously misunderstood his point.

Re:Tunnel Vision strikes again

[Ravatar]

Sorry, I lost about $100 in the mix. Basic system is $300, games are $60 a pop. Add tax and you come to around $520. I guess if you wanted to add the controller ($40) and the memory card ($40), you'd come a little over $600 for the package.

Re:Tunnel Vision strikes again

[adisakp]

Apparently you missed the thundering herd of people abandoning their PS3 plans in favor of Wii and Xbox 360.

Yup... that's what my friends are saying. They're going to buy a Wii AND a 360 for the same price as the PS3.

Me, I'll buy one if they come out with a Linux Kit like they did for the PS2 but that's only because I'm a total nerd :-)

Re:Tunnel Vision strikes again

[Khaed]

While I think that the world of gaming has had an over the top reaction to the price tag, there are people who won't buy it at $600. I'm one of them, and I know quite a few other people who feel the same. $600 is too much for a console for a good number of people. So everyone planning on getting one before the announcement most definitely is not going to continue to do so, because no one I know still plans on getting one before major price drops.

convergence: You're assuming BluRay wins. I think it is very likely that it will. But what's to stop Microsoft and Sony competitors (everyone else that makes DVD players) from throwing all their weight behind HD-DVD the day after the PS3 launches?

And because this all comes standard on BOTH the low and high end PS3, it's a winner.

Except that the cheaper one doesn't have the HDMI output, and cannot be upgraded thus. It also doesn't have WiFi or a few other features. I honestly think the $500 one is simply a ploy to make the $600 one look better. "You get so much more for just $100!"

Memory sticks have been addressed by other posters, moving right along...

"The PS3 owners will own more games per console." Right. With what money, after $600 for a system with no games and one controller? What are all the great unique launch titles? What games will there be only for the PS3? And what guarantees that third party developers won't walk away to someone with better market share?

Re:Tunnel Vision strikes again

[dozer]

That's comedy. Wish I had mod points.

Re:Tunnel Vision strikes again

[spindizzy]

It's not circular logic as neither of those conditions are required to be finished for them to add to each others success. After a certain threshhold both BD and the PS3 reinforce each other.

Re:Tunnel Vision strikes again

[jchenx]

... of course by the time the PS3 comes out, I wouldn't be surprised at all of the 360 price drops, or they at least start offering some sweet bundling deals. Gears of War, extra controller, free year of Live, all bundled together = Bad News for Sony.

Re:Tunnel Vision strikes again

[McNihil]

"and most Japanese devs haven't figured out how to use a pixel shader yet."

I would say that You have no clue. As if "shading" is that difficult.

Re:Tunnel Vision strikes again

[thatguywhoiam]

You make some fine points, I just wanted to point something out:

Selection will be similar to UMD, and we know how well that does.

UMD has been weirdly successful so far, which kind of mystifies me (and I do have a PSP; never bought a UMD movie though). Do a quick google for 'UMD sales' and you will see what I mean - they've actually had to boost production numbers due to demand. Its nothing like DVD of course but for a single system (i.e. only one player, PSP) its quite amazing.

Re:Tunnel Vision strikes again

[The-Bus]

Looking on Google for 'UMD sales', the first results paint a rosy picture: "Sales strong" proclaims one headline, "UMD sales take off" says another. But all those articles are from mid-2005.

If you take that same search term to Google news, you see words like "bleak" and "future unclear" being used.

If you ask me, the PSP launched a bit too early. UMDs, ideally, should've been 8cm mini Blu-Ray discs. Play them on a regular Blu-Ray player, and you get a full-length, complete DVD, as 8cm BRDs hold about the same as a DVD. So, buying the UMD let you watch movies on the go and at home at a standard that's more than OK for most people. If this compatibility moved over to the PS3, then the PSP would be a killer ap. Watch movies at home, play games at home, then take them with you on the go. Sure PSP games would be underpowered compared to a PS3 native game, but that's an advantage that Nintendo does not have (yet).

Now, nothing is preventing Sony from doing this with the PSP2 (if such a thing is planned), so I only hope they finally learn the error of their ways.

Re:Tunnel Vision strikes again

[Anonymous Coward]

Everyone planning on getting one before the announcement will continue to do so.

I'm not. I'm going with the Wii. The 360 games are geared to me and not my family, but I already have a computer for my games. The Wii will be much much cheaper than the PS3 and I don't want/need blue-ray. Maybe, just maybe if I had a huge HD TV I'd piss away the extra money. I don't so I won't. I personally could easily afford either (plus a HD TV, I just don't feel the need or desire to own one).

So, here is one user who has 3 hacked full package DTivos, 4 Xboxs, projectors, networking, terrabyte media raids, but also has no desire to buy a PS3. Hence, Sony screwed up. I'll buy 2 Wiis and still have extra money for games.

Re:Tunnel Vision strikes again

[Gulthek]

I thought it upsetting that someone with a cool n' old school name like Frobozz would be shilling for "SONY".

Then I noticed that it was Frobozz0, and felt much better.

Re:Tunnel Vision strikes again

[thatguywhoiam]

If you ask me, the PSP launched a bit too early. UMDs, ideally, should've been 8cm mini Blu-Ray discs. Play them on a regular Blu-Ray player, and you get a full-length, complete DVD, as 8cm BRDs hold about the same as a DVD. So, buying the UMD let you watch movies on the go and at home at a standard that's more than OK for most people. If this compatibility moved over to the PS3, then the PSP would be a killer ap. Watch movies at home, play games at home, then take them with you on the go. Sure PSP games would be underpowered compared to a PS3 native game, but that's an advantage that Nintendo does not have (yet).

That... is a frickin' brilliant idea, I agree.

I understand they are working on a successor to the PSP, so who knows. Cheers.

Re:Tunnel Vision strikes again

[GATxBoggyPants]

this is so unrelated but i have a question for u and i don't c any contact info maxo-texas so could u email me at yo.yo122791@gmail.com ?

Re:Tunnel Vision strikes again

[LordVader717]

Oh yeah?

What about this?

Too much credit for the common man

[nosredna]

I don't think Sony is going to have nearly as big a problem with this generation of the console wars as people think. The entire American consumer system is based on a flawed precept anyway, and Sony is well-poised to take advantage of that.

It is expected that people will push their spending to match their income. This results in people with a lot more house than they need, a lot more car than they need, and so on. It's not uncommon for people working low-end jobs to have a new car that they can't actually afford, and sure as hell don't need (as an example, my brother works as a restaurant manager... he has a 2001 Honda something or other, with a $119/month car payment. One of his employees, a waitress, has just traded in her previous car, a 2004 something or other, because she couldn't afford the $379/month payment. Her solution: Get a 2006 something or other with a $325/month payment). This is, unfortunately, not the exception to the rule.

People will buy expensive stuff as a status symbol. How often have you been at some gathering of people (high school reunions are notorious) and heard people talking not about their kids, but about how much they spent on their boat? Doesn't matter that they're going to estate sales every weekend to stock their pantry (Sweet, 10 cents for a box of cereal, just because the guy who died opened it and had a bowl or two? I'm there!), they still have the status symbol of the boat, and their 3,000 square foot house, and their brand new H3.

It's soulless and evil to take advantage of that attitude, but Sony never claimed to be a church. And there are enough people out there who will buy the more expensive console for either the status symbol, or just to shut their kids up about the damn thing (you might be amazed how far that one will push parents... ever done a price-check on a Disney World vacation? Compare that with a run to DC to hit up the Smithsonian museums for a week). And hell, they don't even need the high market share they've enjoyed in the past... with that price point, they'll have outstanding revenues even if the number of units sold is only 30% of what the PS2 did.

As much as I hate to admit it (the side of me that co-owns a business is fighting with my pseudo-hippie minimalist personal life on this), my hat is off to Sony for this. I think they've found a capitalist's utopia for this cycle.

Re:Too much credit for the common man

[Anonymous Coward]

Since when is a 3000 sq foot house a status symbol?

Re:Too much credit for the common man

[Slappytron]

I was going to rip your post, but I realized that you are mostly right. It is an unfortunate trend that most people live above their means in the U.S. and don't save.

However, I'm not too sure that people are going to buy the PS3 as a status symbol. While anyone drools over a nice car, or nice clothes, or an expensive home, a game console sits somewhat hidden inside an entertainment center. Instead of "wow, you have a PS3?!!", the general reaction of the knowing gamer would be "why in the hell did you waste your money on that thing?!!"

Re:Too much credit for the common man

[robertjw]

Since when is a 3000 sq foot house a status symbol?

Since always. Not sure where you live, but a 3000 sq foot house is a very nice sized home in my city. Not huge, but there are a large number of houses that approximate size for sale locally due to foreclosure.

a 'Status Symbol' is always relative to one's peers and environments. In many parts of the country a 3000 sq foot house would not seem large. In Southern California, just OWNING a house of any size can be a status symbol.

The GP hits very close to home with his post. Couldn't have said it better myself. Sony may have built a enough branding that a PS3 will be a 'Status Symbol' for many middle to lower class families. If so, sales will probably go well. Problem with marketing a product based on it's prestige rather than it's actual quality is that the market can swing wildly on subjective concepts like that. If the gamer community decides the PS3 is a poor quality product that opinion could filter down to the school kids that are the driving market force. If the kids think PS3 is stupid then those consoles will sit on the shelves and gather dust.

Re:Too much credit for the common man

[robertjw]

While anyone drools over a nice car, or nice clothes, or an expensive home, a game console sits somewhat hidden inside an entertainment center. Instead of "wow, you have a PS3?!!", the general reaction of the knowing gamer would be "why in the hell did you waste your money on that thing?!!"

It comes down to parents buying for their kids. If little Johnny can brag to his friends or if Susie Homemaker can tell her neighbor how they bought one for little Johnny it becomes a status symbol. I remember this from when I was a kid. I was jealous of the kids that had a computer or cable tv or a newer car than we did. Fortunately my parents weren't ones to make bad decisions just to impress my friend's parents.

Re:Too much credit for the common man

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree with your post and I think a lot of people are forgetting this. Sony will be the best console, BECAUSE it's the most expensive. The mass public isn't gonna buy the cheap version because it lacks HDMI? These are the same people that don't know where their monitor plugs in to their computer yet. I may not be giving the mass public a lot of credit, but cost = status, which is something Sony has learned very well in the television market. People buy Sony, not because they can actual see the difference or know what the added features are (although that's what the commercials will say for them), they buy them so people can come over and know that they dropped an obscene amount of money, not just on a huge tv, but a huge SONY tv. I don't know about how the wars shake out, but when SONY releases, the general public will consider it to be the most advanced/best console, because the only way they are able to compare electronics IS BY THE PRICE. They don't know what's in it or why that's better, only that it costs more ergo it has to be better.

There is a factor I'm not taking into account and that is the friendly tech guy that almost every person knows. There are a lot of people out there just socratic enough to ask for advice before jumping blindly and they usually go to the /. crowd for advice. People here are obviously riled up enough that enough negative press from you guys, just might be enough to keep the initial, "wow, it's $600 bucks. It must be amazing!" from pumping sony and blu-ray all the way to bank. If that happens I'm all for it, but if SONY does their usual good job marketing and gets movies in stores on blu-ray, I think they'll do just fine being the most expensive. They do okay being the most expensive in every other market they're a part of.

Re:Too much credit for the common man

[Anonymous Coward]

This is about the stupidest reply I've ever heard. Most of it except the first and last sentence is completely irrelevent. Buying houses blah blah cars blah blah. It's a known that people are spending more than they're worth. DUH. However, your response really shows your insecurities and frustrations. You've got some sort of nasty inferiority complex and should seek professional help before you go crazy.

Re:Too much credit for the common man

[Scudsucker]

You might have a point if the PS3 was the only next gen console out there. Unfortunatly for Sony (and your point) is the fact that you'll be able to buy an Xbox 360 AND a Revolution (I refuse to use the new, stupid name) for the price of the "premium" PS3. Yes, Americans like charging too much money on their credit cards, but they also like "getting a good deal" even if it puts them farther in debt. With out a serious price reduction or a buttload of must-have games, Sony is dead in the water.

Re:Too much credit for the common man

[Hadlock]

3000 sq ft is HUGE. I currently live in a 2700 sq ft house, and boy am I spoiled. It's making me realize my real (low, very, very low) economic position when I'm out apartment hunting and looking at these 800 sq ft apartments for two people.
 
  2700 sq feet will buy you 4 bedrooms, 3.5 baths, giant kitchen, seperate (12x15') dining room (could be used as a home office), formal living room, den, mini bar, laundry room, etc etc ad nauseum.
 
A single family can live comfortably in a 1200-1500 sq foot house. Oh, sure, you only get one living room, the dining room is a little smaller, and 2-3 bedrooms doesn't leave you with your very own home office, but it's still very livable. Of our four bedrooms, I live in one, parents in the other, one is a storage room (with a bunk bed for guests), and the fourth is simply a guest bedroom with a king sized bed, and some nightstands that got relegated to guest bedroom status when they were deemed "too 80's(used perhaps three times a year). Way, WAY overkill for a three person family. Maybe if you were morman with 8 kids...
 
Point being, most people use 4 rooms on a regular basis, Kitchen, Laundry, Bedroom, Livingroom. Having 8 bedrooms doesn't make you any happier, since those doors are shut 99% of the time, and you have no use for them.

I'm going to start a company

[From A Far Away Land]

..I'm going to call my company Bony.
I'll install Rootkits on people's computers, and charge $600 for a game system in 2006, while my competitors chrage less.

Will my company self destruct? 9 out of 10 dentists agree that regular screwing up will result in company decay.

Re:I'm going to start a company

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm afraid you're too late...the name's been taken (Bank of NY). Maybe you could try FONY?

Is it truly the Blu-Ray or the Games?

[WillAffleckUW]

I do not want to come out sounding too much like a conspiracy nut, but Sony is trying to use the PS3 to launch BD and not the console itself. There is much more money to be made in movies then in the game market, since movies are a much more "universal" form of entertainment. If Sony made the console with only DVD support, like 360 and Wii, I would almost bet that they would have pricing that is much more competitive to the other consoles; however, I think their true competitor is HD-DVD and other Blu-Ray drive makers.

Well, from a marketing and format-domination perspective, wouldn't a larger user base for Sony PS3s mean that more people would use Blu-Ray and its DRM, thus giving them a lock on the next format?

So, yes, I think at some point they will realize that they want to win the war, not be stuck on past glories. And to succeed at selling movie titles, which is probably more revenue than games, it helps to sell more PS3s.

Retail of $500 is not going to make them bleed to death - $600 is a sweet price for them, but if they sell way more volume at $500 and then people end up buying Blu-Ray movies, they end up making more in the long run.

Re:Is it truly the Blu-Ray or the Games?

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem is, Sony's cheapest PS3 doesn't come with HDMI.

No HDMI, no Blueray movie's. What's the point again???

Re:One of the things I find interesting about this

[flooey]

I wont go as far as to say "SONY IS TEH DOOMED", but it doesnt look good for them in the slightest.

Actually, they'd be lucky if they could get up to Nintendo's position. Nintendo hasn't posted a yearly loss in the last 20 years, despite their "fall from grace", whereas Sony has been oscillating between profit and loss for the last several years, with quite a bit of time in the loss department. Nintendo might not be as popular, but they're far more successful in terms of profit.

only on slashdot?

[wardk]

could a massive corporation like Sony be considered "doomed" because their video game division upset some "gamers"?

Re:only on slashdot?

[rblum]

Their video game division is the one making profits. (Well, and Sony Insurance). So yes, *theoretically*, it could doom them. Practically, we'll all say "oooh! Shiny!" and buy the damn thing ;)

Re:only on slashdot?

[east coast]

could a massive corporation like Sony be considered "doomed" because their video game division upset some "gamers"?

Are you suggesting that the latest version of OO and ODF aren't the microsoft killers everyone is proclaiming? You, sir, are a bastard!

diminishing returns

[danpsmith]

The problem that Sony doesn't get about this coming console is that it isn't that much better than the PS2 to the average consumer. The fact is that some people that are even slightly technically inclined (e.g. my brother) already think that the PS2's graphics are HD, or that DVDs are HD, and probably wouldn't notice the difference even if you pointed it out. The problem is one of diminishing returns. I'm sure some people will buy anything because they have become Sony fans, (how, I have no clue, because while PS systems have good games, there's nothing particularly inspiring about the system or the majority of its games) but most people will not. The differences are becoming more and more subtle between generations of consoles. I played XBox 360 in the store upon release and couldn't see why anyone would prefer it that much over the original XBox, the differences seemed quite subtle, even graphically. When you jump entire levels in graphical difference, you can expect an equivalent boost in price tag. But when you are talking about emulating the look of cloth better than the last console, that simply is not enough to entice most people to plunk down 600 dollars. The price point is the saving feature of the Wii. It's something different, and it's cheap. While it might not be better graphically it at least has something to draw you in. I can't see buying a PS3 when I'm already bored with PS2 and the graphics aren't that much better... Most people have finally amassed DVD collections and you think they are going to change formats again? Please. I predict about the same amount of success with blu-ray as there was with PSP's disk video format. Nobody wants to have to buy the same movie over and over again. This is decidedly _not_ a selling feature for your console.

Re:diminishing returns

[acidream]

If you cant see the difference between the original Xbox and the 360 then you need to look a little closer. Granted it's not the same leap as say a SNES to a N64, but it's pretty big one, especcially at HD res which is apparently what this whole next-gen is about.

Re:diminishing returns

[Anonymous Coward]

"I'm sure some people will buy anything because they have become Sony fans, (how, I have no clue,"

Because Sony 'won' this generation is reason enough for a lot of people. Because it's the most popular is reason enough for another lot - these people will switch to whichever console 'wins' and become die hard fans there too.
Still, you have to admit the PS2 has a great selection of games. Singstar and Guitar Hero to RE4, FF and Tekken.

p.s. you're totally right about the graphics. I've played several xbox 360 demo stations - the ones with HD screens look like you're playing on a high-end PC, the (unofficial) ones with shitty 15 inch CRTs look like you're playing on a PS2.

Re:diminishing returns

[Hadlock]

Until the majority of new-console purchasing families own a 42" or larger HDTV, HDTV isn't ever going to catch on. The advantages of HDTV become apparent when blown up to 60" or so, and blocky, aliased PS2 graphics really begin to show their age. DVDs look great on normal TVs, providing they were made in the last 15 years or so. I think microsoft made a huge mistake showing off the king kong video game in HD on a HDTV that was 17" in size... made it look like a fancy Jurrassic Park PS2 game.
 
So, is the average family going to have a 42" plasma TV in three years? Unless the bottom of the market falls out and the price drops to $400, I'm guessing no. The PS2 and Xbox still have long lives ahead of them... at least two more years. The mass migration of developers from the PS to PS2 simply isn't going to happen as quickly as it did in the past.

Worst. Summary. Ever.

[Anonymous Coward]

Dear lord try and do something other than just rant!

Re:Worst. Summary. Ever.

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude, all the cool people make fun of Sony now. Did'nt you get the memo? Microsot is now your friend. Yay for Clippy!

If in fact they lose money on PS3, what of xBox360

[WillAffleckUW]

Good point, but we also know that Microsoft is not gaining that much on console sales, and in fact has minimal worldwide marketshare. Perhaps Sony would rather sell more PS3s, lose a teeny bit of cash on them (break even), just so that the xBox360 doesn't get their footing again - when we look at worldwide revenue, we see that the xBox lost out to PS2, and the xBox360 to date is a very small fraction of xBox (think it's something like one-tenth the number of boxen). In fact, worldwide, Nintendo has sold as many Gamecubes as Microsoft has sold both xBox and xBox360. In the US, sure, xBox has sold more, and is more of an even player with Sony PS2, but even here they are second-place in marketshare, even though US Gamecube sales are really low compared to xBox.

So, to dominate with PS3, and get all that juicy Blu-Ray revenue (from players, movies, music, games, etc) and license fees, if they can keep dominance they can lock out the HD format and keep us using Sony Blu-Ray by selling PS3 at a price point that spurs widespread adoption.

I don't seriously expect them to compete with the price point of the Nintendo Wii, that would be silly. Nintendo always makes a profit on selling their consoles - and a profit on selling their games. Sony doesn't always make a profit on consoles, and Microsoft generally doesn't. That's why a lot of people wanted to put Linux on the xBox360 - it sells below the normal retail price for its components.

Ok, plus it sticks it to the man ... grin.

Making the Mountain From the Mole Hill...

[EXTomar]

No matter what your opinion of E3 or Sony, Sony isn't going just "destruct". The worst that seems to happen at this point in time is that Sony doesn't dominate as hard as they used to which IMHO *is the best place to be*. When Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo compete against each other we reap the benifits. Some of the most exciting and inventive games to come out in quite awhile will be appearing in 2007 and 2008. All because all three of these companies think the market is up for grabs.

So why the doom and gloom? I say bring it on! Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo all need to be humbled at regular intervals anyway to service us.

The Yen Is Mightier Than...

[SparafucileMan]

Ya'll realize, right, that whether the PS3 fails or not on its own right is going to have a minimal impact on Sony compared to the value of the Yen in the coming months/years.

Sony is a Big Corporation in the Big Game, and they're far more concerned with the BoJapan than a bunch of Fanboys. In the past 2 months the Yen has appreciated about 7%... which dwarfs just about everything.

Re:The Yen Is Mightier Than...

[SkyAblo2000]

Actually mate, the Yen appreciating like that can be a bad thing for Sony. It makes exports more expensive - e.g. if it were 110 Yen to 1 dollar now and it appreciates to 100 yen to the dollar (if the yen is worth more you get less yen for a greenback) it will cost more dollars to be able to afford the PS3 (or any other Sony product) priced at 40000 Yen.

This gives Sony them two choices
1. reduce their margins, which are already tight compared to the competition, and hope that their reserves can allow them to ride the wave of the mighty yen
2. hope that people outside the land of the rising sun will cough up the extra $ to buy their little toys (and this won't just affect PS3).

The fact is that the rising Yen and falling $ will give Micro$oft an edge in pricing both at home and on exports.

Price will be a big thing in the coming months, and exchange rates will have a lot to do with who comes out on top. Niether Nintendo or Sony have finalized their pricing, and I expect that they are hoping the Yen will fall between now and release date so that they can price lower.

Re:The Yen Is Mightier Than...

[oscarmv]

Keep in mind that of all the components of the XBox 360 and the PS3, the only ones that I'm sure are made in the US or Japan are their CPUs. Most everything is built in sweatshopistan, and for sure they are assembled there too. So it's not so clear how the shifting money exchange rates will change console costs.

Early Adopters

[MunkeyFunk]

Everyone here seems to forget that early adopters and fanboys are crazy. They will pay anything to say they own a PS3 and Sony knows this. The PS3 can come out at $1000 and it will still be a sellout in every store. And you will be seeing them on E-bay for well over $1500 I'm sure and they will sell as well. As was mentioned above Sony isn't really trying to win the console war this time around. That is secondary to them. They just want to win the media war over HD-DVD which will land them a lot more money then a gaming console will because it will pretty much be just free roalty money from every blu-ray disk sold.

I think cool tech zone self destructed first!

[TheRealBurKaZoiD]

...thanks in large part to the ./ affect!

here's what I got:

mossession::store failed
DB function failed with error number 1062
Duplicate entry '1-' for key 2 SQL=INSERT INTO mos_session ( `session_id`,`time`,`username`,`gid`,`guest` ) VALUES ( '5a03d3215b93dec07298edf7b6444a78','1147722707','' ,'0','1' )

Re:I think cool tech zone self destructed first!

[Anonymous Coward]

'5a03d3215b93dec07298edf7b6444a78','1147722707','' ,'0','1'

Excellent, now I have your IP address, SSN, home address, bank account # and PIN. Thanks!

Re:I think cool tech zone self destructed first!

[Guysmiley777]

'5a03d3215b93dec07298edf7b6444a78','1147722707','' ,'0','1'

Excellent, now I have your IP address, SSN, home address, bank account # and PIN. Thanks!

LOL

Denied!

[singingjim]

Link is busted. At least it doesn't work for me. OSX Safari.

Sony INSURANCE was the big contributor

[xswl0931]

If you actually read the article you linked to: "Sony's earnings were inflated in the past business year by windfall profits at its life insurance unit". Sony expects to lose about $900 million dur to PS3 launch. Since this article is about games, the context indicates that "Sony IS losing money" is about their games business.

Re:Sony INSURANCE was the big contributor

[Anonymous Coward]

In other news, Microsoft is losing money heading for bankruptcy.

Well, this is all conjecture.

[Irish_Samurai]

I'll wait and see what actually happens when the console becomes available. While certain facts point to Sony taking a serious hit, it has been proven over and over again that the US market is often overestimated in their sophistication.

Are hardcore gamers pissed of at Sony? Sure. But there are more than enough fanbois doing damage control for free.

Is the video game media a little miffed about Sony's attitude at E3? Sounds like they are, but that is kind of a moot point. Game magazines CANNOT put a major player out to hang, or they run the risk of losing subscribers. With the constant barrage of criticism that the gaming press constantly receives, they don't want to lose any more readers than they have to. Otherwise the doors close.

Has Sony done this type of thing before? You bet.

Have they been removed from the face of the earth? Not yet.

Goofball Ideas from Sony

[joe_n_bloe]

* ATRAC was (still is) proprietary. What would have happened to mp3 if ATRAC had been available for personal computers even before the days of the Internet? The format has been around since roughly 1992.

* Intransigence over Blu-Ray (like Michael Eisner at Disney v. Pixar).

* The "plus" in DVD+R(W)

* $700 DAT recorders that couldn't record at 44.1kHz. (Not till later models came along years afterward.)

* Anything Sony music ever does, did, or will do.

People won't make you rich buying products that are the best. They'll make you rich buying the products that are the best to use. Like "Trinitron," "WEGA," and "HandyCam."

Re:Goofball Ideas from Sony

[Hadlock]

Not to be an apologetic, but Trinitron technology is frickin' awesome. Typing this on a 17" sony trinitron monitor purchased along with a sony viao computer in 1996 (the original viao, manufactured by intel in washington state). The viao is still used to boot in to win98 in extreme emergencies (I use a mac), but otherwise is trash. The Trinitron monitor, which is novel, but sturdy and extremely high quality hardware, is my monitor of choice even today. I'm sure if you go and look up what exactly Trinitron technology is, and how it works, and then go examine some 10-15 year old monitors, you'll find that they're still some of the crispest (is that a word) monitors out there.

Re:One of the things I find interesting about this

[akhomerun]

nintendo was able to survive the N64 era for two reasons.

#1 awesome 1st party games
#2 nintendo doesn't produce consoles that, on their own (without game sales), do not turn a profit.

Sony does neither of these things.

Re:One of the things I find interesting about this

[masklinn]

... situation is that Sony is in nearly the EXACT same position Nintendo was in when they "fell from grace".

Not really. Nintendo hasn't EVER lost money on a console, even the N64 was pure profit, and we're not even talking about the parallel Pokemon trend that started near that time and made N litteraly soar.

Sony just ain't what it used to be

[Anonymous Coward]

Back in the 80's, Sony was it. They had a hit with the CD and sold a variety of products across their lines.

And then, people bought their shit. They brought it home, used it for a few weeks, and found a problem. Shortly after the warranty was up, the Sony product would die.

Later, the same people would buy another Sony product, and another.

Sound familiar?

How many of the PS1's and PS2's were sold to existing customers to replace a shitty product? I bet more than you think.

And if you think that consumers are going to be fooled, again, I think not. Sony is on a slippery slope of poor quality products and diminished brand image. If you want to know who's going to be the tops of the next-next gen system, look no further than Samsung. Yes, Samsung. While they don't have all the pieces today, with their chip fabs and eye on quality, they can dominate the market place.

Quite simply, Samsung is what Sony held itself up to be 20 years ago. In the meantime, Sony has lost more customers, forever, than they stand to gain. I am not going to spend $20 on a Sony product, never mind $600.

Offical assessment

[BoxSocial]

It's the end of the world as we know it! PS3 is shit! Long live PS2!

DVD

[Anonymous Coward]

DVD was introduced in 1997 in Japan and 1998 in North America and was out for two full years before Sony released the PS2 with it as a component; this meant that the production costs were dramatically lower then they had initially been, and their was a demand that had built up of people wanting DVD movies (not to mention that places like Blockbuster were carying every new movie in DVD format). Also don't forget that it wasn't until 2003 that DVD movies were more popular to rent than VHS movies; meaning it took 5 years to get DVD to account for more than 50% of the marketplace. This means that if Blu-Ray is adopted as fast as DVD was (which was one of the fastest formats excepted) it will not become a major factor until 2009-2010; at this point in time the "Console War" is basically over (people will have bought they system they planned on buying).

The question is whether Blu-Ray will make people choose the PS3 rather than another system; I personally think it will not because:

1) Blu-Ray dramatically increases the cost of hardware because of how new the technology is and how high the licencing fees are.

2) Blu-Ray dramatically increases the cost of games to consumers; this is the one that hasn't been demonstrated yet. People forget that there is always an extra cost associated with new formats because the volumes are low and the companies involved had to build new factories (or retrofit old factories) to produce the new media; this cost is usually $10 per disc. When Sony announces that their Blu-Ray based games will cost $60-$70 per game.

Re:DVD

[Total_Wimp]

This is one of the best written replies I've seen. Numbers are a good thing. Too bad you posted as AC.

Re:DVD

[AntiGenX]

I agree with you 100% up until you say that the games will be $10 more. Blu-ray players can play normal DVD's & CD's too. Most games, at least in the first generation, won't need the full space of Blu-Ray. Therefore, they can be produced as DVD's and escape the new format tax. They'll just saddle movie consumers with that extra $10s.
I still say, "screw you Sony"; you've let your arrogance consume you. Maybe we'll get to see some folks throw themselves on their swords. Oooo! New idea for minigame for xbox arcade!? "SONY Excutive Slash!" Once you get the CEO, middle management commits seppuku. That might be enough to make me buy a 360.

What is mostly interesting to me

[Anonymous Coward]

What is mostly interesting to me is if you look at Sony's pricing decisions in the context of what happened at the XBox 360 and PS2 launches. By which I mean: Massive, horrendous shortages.

Let's say that there's six million people who would gladly buy a PS3 at launch. Now let's say that by pricing themselves at $600, Sony has just driven four million of them off. Clearly this was a terrible business decision. Except now let's say that Sony can actually only ship two million units at launch. Wait, now the price raise thing doesn't sound like such a bad idea.

A lot of people are complaining about this price because they basically view it as a personal insult-- and these people are totally in the right, because it is an insulting way to treat consumers. However, on the other hand, I think the people who see this as a suicidal business decision are just fooling themselves into thinking they are they only point on the demand curve. (If I don't want to pay that kind of money, then nobody does.) But in fact demand curves have lots of points, and they do really funny things near the edges.

I think the question isn't whether Sony will lower the PS3 price-- it's when. There are two possibilities here. The first possibility is that Sony understands they're killing their own market by charging $600 per unit; are only keeping the price high as a ploy to move supply and demand closer to one another; and they will drop the price as soon as they can get that supply high enough for a pricedrop to make sense. The other possibility is that Sony actually believes their own marketing nonsense, and seriously thinks $600 is a reasonable price for this console; if this is the case, then when they get to february, reality hits them like a sledgehammer, and nobody is buying PS3s anymore, they will panic and drop their prices. With either possibility, the price is coming down.

In either case-- whether Sony is being too stupid for their own good or too smart for their own good here-- I'm not convinced they are actually hurting themselves with this initial price maneuver. Pundits, bloggers and analysts love to set up "Console Wars" and then declare them over ten minutes after they've begun, but in fact console generations last five years and Sony is entering these things for the long haul. If Sony flubs their launch then things just become a matter of what they can do three months after launch. Sony has a lot of time and a lot of chances to recover their position, especially when you consider that most of the PS3 games worth playing won't be coming out for a year after launch anyway.

There is only one real gamble Sony is taking here, and it is this: The $600 price tag is obviously driving people away. The problem is whether, and how many, of those people will come back. Sony's survival at this point revolves entirely around consumers' ability, sometime in the future, to go "Oh, so that video game system that used to be $600 is now $399? Well, maybe I'll give it another look". There is another possibility however, and that possibility is that the consumers will go "Hm, Playstation 3 for $399? I can afford that, but wait a minute. Isn't that the company that last year tried to screw everyone over by charging $600 for a video game system? Never mind, I don't want to to take risks with a company that treats their customers like that."

Re:What is mostly interesting to me

[The_Real_Quaid]

There is only one real gamble Sony is taking here, and it is this: The $600 price tag is obviously driving people away. The problem is whether, and how many, of those people will come back. Sony's survival at this point revolves entirely around consumers' ability, sometime in the future, to go "Oh, so that video game system that used to be $600 is now $399? Well, maybe I'll give it another look".

M$ and nintendo will always have Sony at massive disadvantages. Do you think they will sit by idly while Sony drops their prices? By the time PS3 hits $299, the Wii will be $150 or $100, and X360 will be $250 or $200. And here's the kicker - PS3 won't have better games. It's going to be hard to convince joe gamer to drop the extra cash on PS3 if he can always get more bang for the buck elsewhere.

Local market share?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think their local market share + a little bit of EU/USA = way more than enough to keep them going for ever. Seems most people here forget that the Japanese do no imporant ANY electronics, where as the EU/USA does.

Re:One of the things I find interesting about this

[MaverickUW]

To be more specific, Nintendo has reported only 1 loss (partially due to the dollar-yen exchange) in 116+ years.

16 terraflops on a dead man's chest.

[goombah99]

16 terraflops is what the cheap $499 PS3 can do. You'd need a room full of pentiums to touch that and even then you'd never have the interrocnnection band width to equal it.

the PS3 is an unbeatable number cruncher. The question is only if they can wrangle it into a game with enough differences to matter to the consumer's experience.

As for costs, the POWER chips and Intel CPUs you find in an Xbox or a desktop will never ever be able to match the price per performance. Ever. There's no way to go from ten gigaflops to terraflops with those general purpose CPUs. And the Sony's will only get cheaper with time, and the games get better at taking advantage of it.

So really it's more like a race. Will Sony be able to hang on with early tepid sales till the games become worth it? Will developers come to their rescue?

It's not a question of the PS3 being overpriced. it's prices inexpesively for what it is.

Re:16 terraflops on a dead man's chest.

[TheKidWho]

16 terflops! Don't make me laugh!

Re:16 terraflops on a dead man's chest.

[Greatmoose]

No no! It's not 16 teraflops, it's 1.21 JIGAWATTS!!!!!

Re:16 terraflops on a dead man's chest.

[drinkypoo]

It's not a question of the PS3 being overpriced. it's prices inexpesively for what it is.

You're making the same mistake Sony is making. It's a game console, there's no excuse for it to cost six hundred bucks. It didn't work for Neo-Geo (which was by far the most powerful console in its day) and it won't work for the PS3. It'll work better than it did for the Neo-Geo, because it will have the shiny SONY emblem on it, but it's still going to hurt 'em, and bad.

Re:16 terraflops on a dead man's chest.

[The_Real_Quaid]

You are silly to believe Sony's performance numbers. They also quoted insane numbers for PS2 but reality showed it was no big deal at all. Sony's numbers are in specific ideal scenarios, for general real-world use their systems are no better than anything from Intel and AMD.

Sony had to run to nVidia for help with their GPU, for fks sake. They don't know nearly as much about computer engineering as their PR is letting on.

Re:16 terraflops on a dead man's chest.

[JanneM]

It's a game console. Gaming is not worth $600 just for the box (adding another $50-$60 for every title) to me. It isn't a general purpose computer, it is a toy. And I'm not paying $600 for a toy; I'm especially not paying $600 for a toy when it comes out of our common budget and I'm the only one who's interested in playing with it.

If Sony can't sell this level of technology for substantially less than $600, then they have overspent on the technology level. It could push a gazillion perfectly rendered polygons every nanosecond and it'd not be worth it. It could have 48 channel surround-sound and automatically hire the remaining members of Beatles to perform live in my living room whenever I try to play the White Album and it'd not be worth it. It could snuggle up to me every morning to wake me up with a cup of fresh coffee and a blowjob and it'd still not be worth it.

$600 for a game console pushes it solidly into the same realm as gaming PC:s with $500 GPU:s - great technology value for a small hard-core audience, but just too expensive for many more casual prospective buyers.

Re:16 terraflops on a dead man's chest.

[zborgerd]

Remember the bogus claims that Sony made about the PS2? Even the dated Dreamcast outclassed it in most every way. Don't get me wrong. I like the PS2 and its games, but most of its bread and butter have been from third-party titles. The most recent exception is probably God of War, which is quite outstanding.

There is nothing saying that the strong third-party support that Sony had with the PSX and PS2 couldn't end up moving to the Wii or the 360, which will both be reasonably priced and offer all the performance that is needed in a game console right now. Remember when "Big N" got cocky after two generations of success? Everyone jumped ship to Sony. It wouldn't surprise me if we see things shift a bit with this next round of consoles.

Re:16 terraflops on a dead man's chest.

[bnenning]

16 terraflops is what the cheap $499 PS3 can do

I have a rather difficult time believing this.

Re:16 terraflops on a dead man's chest.

[Traiklin]

if there's no reason for the PS3 to cost $600 then why is Microsoft charging $400 for it's system?

Nintendo is rumored to go with a price point no higher then $250 (which would make it their most expensive console without a game to date) so obviously that means Microsoft & Sony can do with their systems being in the same price point correct?

Re:16 terraflops on a dead man's chest.

[Traiklin]

you forgot to factor in that Nintendo screwed sony over (thus the reason we even have playstation today and in doing so they screwed themselves over aswell.

Cartridge based games were running out, there was no point in them anymore, CD's were extremly cheap to get and press compared to them so developers wanted those, Nintendo couldn't offer them and stuck with Cartridges, Being that Nintendo was the only place you could get them from you had to pay more for them.

Sony was desperat to get developers on board so they did what was natural, they didn't enforce any rules & they didn't over charge on media, same with the PS2, now they have their own media so now it goes back to the N64/PS1 days only the roles are reversed, Nintendo FINNALY wised up and realised that developers don't care for propriatary formats where they can only get them from one source.

What I want to know is why are these games $60 on consoles yet $40 or $50 on the PC?

Re:16 terraflops on a dead man's chest.

[GweeDo]

Ken Kutiragi? You post on /.?

Re:16 terraflops on a dead man's chest.

[Anonymous Coward]

You're making the same mistake Mirosoft is making. It's a game console, there's no excuse for it to cost four hundred bucks. It didn't work for the 3DO (which was by far the most powerful console in its day) and it won't work for the Xbox360. It'll work better than it did for the 3DO, because it will have the shiny Microsoft emblem on it, but it's still going to hurt 'em, and bad.

Re:16 terraflops on a dead man's chest.

[Afrosheen]

Ran to Nvidia for help with their GPU? Did Microsoft run to ATI? Did Nintendo run to SGI for the N64? What you're seeing is smart engineering. Why reinvent the wheel when there are 20" chrome spinners at Nvidia's shop?

  These days, components are getting so complex just to design and test you'd be a fool to roll your own for something like this. It's better to work with the big boys and have them hand you a finished product, just for you, than to waste your time hammering out custom hardware one chip at a time.

Re:16 terraflops on a dead man's chest.

[heinousjay]

if there's no reason for the PS3 to cost $600 then why is Microsoft charging $400 for it's system?

I'm flabbergasted. Speechless. No words. This is a paragon of logic. A monument to 10,000 years of rational thinking. The pinnacle of man's achievement.

Re:16 terraflops on a dead man's chest.

[Anonymous Coward]

There is one major difference between the Neo-Geo and the PS3, aside from the emblem: PS3 can run PS2 titles. Yes, it's still too expensive for a game console, but backward compatibility ensures that you will get a huge library of proven, if not bleeding edge, games from Day One. Xbox 360 in Japan is really suffering from lack of this feature IMHO--they've managed to alienate both Xbox loyalist customers and developers in Japan by having terrible support for their existing investments.

Re:16 terraflops on a dead man's chest.

[Anonymous Coward]

"As for costs, the POWER chips and Intel CPUs you find in an Xbox or a desktop will never ever be able to match the price per performance. Ever. There's no way to go from ten gigaflops to terraflops with those general purpose CPUs. And the Sony's will only get cheaper with time, and the games get better at taking advantage of it."

Whew! Let me get a windbreaker...there's quite a fanboy out here.

Re:16 terraflops on a dead man's chest.

[Anonymous Coward]

For a cup of coffee every morning and a blowjob I would have to say it would probably be worth it.

But for the rest, I agree

Re:16 terraflops on a dead man's chest.

[PsychicX]

2 teraflops is the claim. And that's if all you do is run adds, subtracts, and multiplies all day with no flow control/branching, function calls, cache misses, pipeline stalls, or any of that other stuff that happens in "reality".

And reality has a well known anti-Sony bias.

Re:16 terraflops on a dead man's chest.

[localman]

it's prices inexpesively for what it is

I remember Steve Jobs saying something similar about the NeXT Cube. Only problem is that real people have budgets. The Earth Simulator may be inexpensive for what it is, too, but you're not going to sell very many of them.

Cheers.

Re:16 terraflops on a dead man's chest.

[Talondel]

It could have 48 channel surround-sound and automatically hire the remaining members of Beatles to perform live in my living room whenever I try to play the White Album and it'd not be worth it. It could snuggle up to me every morning to wake me up with a cup of fresh coffee and a blowjob and it'd still not be worth it.

If you won't pay $600 for that, you won't pay $600 for anything. Hell, for that kind of service you could charge admission just to let people watch and make the $600 bucks back. The Beatles, or The BJ's, either one. Both?

Re:16 terraflops on a dead man's chest.

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

" It's a game console, there's no excuse for it to cost six hundred bucks. It didn't work for Neo-Geo (which was by far the most powerful console in its day) and it won't work for the PS3."

Ok ok, let's come back down to Earth, here.

1.) The Neo Geo's games were $200. Not a great example. A 3DO would be a better example, though not as supportive of your point. The quality of games was a bigger problem than the initial $700 price tag.

2.) The $600 price tag sucks. Sony knows this. Microsoft knows this. 3DO knows this. Etc. I know I will NOT be paying $600 for this system. Heck, I wouldn't pay this much for a Nintendo system, and I'm a foaming-at-the-mouth Nintendo fan boy.

HOWEVER. The launch of the XBOX 360 cannot have faded much from our minds. Shortages. Outrageous prices on eBay. Microsoft taking a loss on the systems anyway. Even though I despise Sony, I have to concede that it would be awfully dumb of them to launch this system at a lower price. They're going to sell out. There's going to be a shortage for months. They might as well take as LITTLE loss as possible on these machines.

In short, I think the high price is good for them, at least at launch. That said, though, they're in serious trouble if they try to maintain that price for long after the launch. I just don't expect that, though. I don't expect that with competition coming from Microsoft and Nintendo that Sony will keep the $600 tag.

I think Sony made a total ass of themselves at E3. I think $600 is way too much for a system. I think Sony doesn't know shit about video games. I don't think they're on a path to self destruction, at least not based on the price tag of the system.

Re:16 terraflops on a dead man's chest.

[linzeal]

I'll take the blowjobs.

Re:16 terraflops on a dead man's chest.

[revengance]

It's a game console, there's no excuse for it to cost six hundred bucks.

Tell that to those gamers who spent a few grands on PC just to play PC games. Personally, there was a time when I spent a few grands on TWO relatively high end PCs so that that I can multi-play in my MMORPG. If there are people who are willing to pay 600 hundred bucks on a single graphics card, I would think that there would be more people willing to spend 600 bucks on a *PS3* (emphasis for the wow! factor) potentially with blu-ray, and potentially cost less than a blu-ray player.

Re:16 terraflops on a dead man's chest.

[arthurh3535]

And people are still forgetting the HDVD and Blue-Ray built in capability. Just like the PS2 was targeted as a DVD player that just happened to play PS1 and PS2 games.

I wonder how far Sony is going to be laughing at everyone else?

Re:16 terraflops on a dead man's chest.

[Skreems]

That few grand gets you a machine that does OTHER THINGS besides just games, though. Not counting monitor, you can get a killer gaming machine for under $1000 these days, which means that for $300 more than a PS3 you get a multi-purpose tool, instead of a box that plays games and movies. Not only that, but you get much more hardware for the money. Maybe they're thinking of a PS3 as an alternative to your next computer upgrade, but that's not going to cut it for me, and it's not going to cut it for a lot of people. I'd much rather have the Revolution, that can do completely acceptable graphics and innovative gameplay, than a second computer with a handicapped controller that's just going to be the same old thing we've had for the past 20 years.

Re:16 terraflops on a dead man's chest.

[Anonymous Coward]

Nvidia was brought in very late in the development cycle. THe original design didn't have a dedicated GPU. Rather, the box would have multiple Cell chips and developers could allocate those as desired. The problem is that Cells have proven so hard to manufacture they've had to cut the specs twice (first on clock speed, then on number of usable SPEs) just to have one in each PS3. This is why the live demos at E3 2005 had so much emphasis on the Cell performing as a GPU while Nvidia just ran PC demos that had no real relation to the PS3.

Re:16 terraflops on a dead man's chest.

[Anonymous Coward]

16 terraflops is what the cheap $499 PS3 can do. You'd need a room full of pentiums to touch that and even then you'd never have the interrocnnection band width to equal it.

And the Emotion Engine will be able to render Toy Story level graphics in real time!

Oh, sorry, that was the last round of lying tripe from Sony PR. Still, enjoy the current lot up until the release date...

Re:16 terraflops on a dead man's chest.

[Anonymous Coward]

automatically hire the remaining members of Beatles to perform live in my living room

I'd pay good money never to hear Paul's voice (or any music he's written) again, and about the only good work Ringo has ever done is on 'Thomas the Tank Engine'.

John, and to a lesser extent George, had real talent though.

So that's maybe not the best analogy to choose.

Re:16 terraflops on a dead man's chest.

[9Nails]

No, actually, I'm quite aware of Sony's BluRay DVD drive in the PlayStation 3. I'm sure most people who are interested in this console are unable to escape that fact. It's one of the reasons why I would not buy one. And also I'm very aware of the screw-the-customers-wishes DRM attached to said drive. The price would be the other reason why I wouldn't purchase it...

Re:16 terraflops on a dead man's chest.

[Anonymous Coward]

"And people are still forgetting the HDVD and Blue-Ray built in capability."

We're not forgetting, we just don't give a fuck.

Re:16 terraflops on a dead man's chest.

[jchenx]

HOWEVER. The launch of the XBOX 360 cannot have faded much from our minds. Shortages. Outrageous prices on eBay. Microsoft taking a loss on the systems anyway. Even though I despise Sony, I have to concede that it would be awfully dumb of them to launch this system at a lower price. They're going to sell out. There's going to be a shortage for months. They might as well take as LITTLE loss as possible on these machines.

No, it's stupid. Yes, you may make a few million on those early adopters, but you have the potential to lose far more in things like mind-share, brand loyalty, etc. which all lead to losing MORE in the end. As soon as Sony announced the price for their PS3, and it was hundreds of dollars more than many gamers were expecting, they instantly switched allegiances to MS. (It probably helped a lot that GTA IV was no longer Sony exclusive for the first few months) Heck, these gamers probably even bought 360s that week (providing they could find any ... zing!).

Sony is smarter than to release the PS3 at a high price just to take advantage of short supply. They know the dangers of high price points. They are the ones who sank the Dreamcast by announcing a cheaper-than-expected price for the PS2.

The reason for the high price is simple: cost of goods. Blu-ray is expensive. If they didn't have to do Blu-ray, then the cost would be much more in-line then what most gamers are willing to pay for.

Re:16 terraflops on a dead man's chest.

[Hamled]

Actually, the Cell processor does not use cache for the SPEs/SPUs, and so you wouldn't get cache misses (except on the POWER processing element).

Re:16 terraflops on a dead man's chest.

[Scudsucker]

I wonder how far Sony is going to be laughing at everyone else?

Since the PS3/Blu Ray wont come remotely close to being a repeat of the PS2/DVD...nowhere.

Re:16 terraflops on a dead man's chest.

[Scudsucker]

HOWEVER. The launch of the XBOX 360 cannot have faded much from our minds. Shortages. Outrageous prices on eBay. Microsoft taking a loss on the systems anyway. Even though I despise Sony, I have to concede that it would be awfully dumb of them to launch this system at a lower price. They're going to sell out. There's going to be a shortage for months. They might as well take as LITTLE loss as possible on these machines.

Of course Sony will sell out their initial stock, but if they are thinking this way, it will be another nail in their coffin. Why? Preorders. Rather than preorder a PS3 for $600 and wait till one comes in, gamers will just buy a 360 or preorder a Wii.

Re:16 terraflops on a dead man's chest.

[Anonymous Coward]

True you get something that does more, but I don't have to restore the PS3 OS every 6 months, or run anti spyware and anti virus software to keep the PS3 running.

Re:16 terraflops on a dead man's chest.

[geminidomino]

I don't think it's possible that they're "forgetting," between Sony's hype and fanboi rantings.

Odds are, they're just too smart to give a fuck.

Re:16 terraflops on a dead man's chest.

[Jesus_666]

Hmm. So Sony wants to leverage the PS3's popularity to get Blu-ray a foothold in the market, but the very inclusion of Blu-ray makes the PS3 so expensive that many people won't buy it, thus diminishing its popularity.

Wow. Until today I have never thought of the term "self-defeating scheme"...

Re:16 terraflops on a dead man's chest.

[soupforare]

Neo Geo had a fuckton lot of better games, especially for the time.
It wasn't as an arcade in your home, it WAS an arcade for the home.

I can't see myself paying more than about $150 for a console.

Re:16 terraflops on a dead man's chest.

[staticneuron]

The Clocked max for the PS3 power is actually 1.8 teraflops before all the low control/branching, function calls, cache misses, pipeline stalls, or any of that other stuff that happens in "reality". Versus the 1 teraflop max the has 360 before all the low control/branching, function calls, cache misses, pipeline stalls, or any of that other stuff that happens in "reality". So Sonys claims of being nearly twice as powerfull is based off of "math" . And math has a well known anti-Microsoft bias.

Re:16 terraflops on a dead man's chest.

[arthurh3535]

Really? What makes you say that? Everything I've heard on the HD-DVD and Blue-Ray is that these players are going to start at about $600-800 by themselves and not drop that fast.

I personally have experience not buying a DVD player at the $300+ rate simply because we could buy a PS2 that would do both gaming and playing the new format.

Is there something in particular that is going to make buying a $400 gaming rig and a $500+ HDVD/BR rig a better deal than a single $600 device that does both?

And with gaming being more accepted, a dual device may be a compelling sale.

Re:16 terraflops on a dead man's chest.

[LostPants]

It's a game console, there's no excuse for it to cost six hundred bucks.

You're absolutely right. The 2x Blu-ray player, 60GB hard drive, free online service, Wi-Fi, HDMI port, and have absolutely nothing to do with the price. After all it is just a game console, right?

It didn't work for Neo-Geo (which was by far the most powerful console in its day) and it won't work for the PS3.

The Neo-Geo was released at $649.99 with absolutely no fan base, no developer support, and its games were $200+ each. The Playstation 3 has a huge fanbase, a lot of developer support, and its games can't be more than $59.99 because consoles are just tools to sell games and to price the games themselves higher than the competition would really be suicide.

It'll work better than it did for the Neo-Geo, because it will have the shiny SONY emblem on it, but it's still going to hurt 'em, and bad.

Like I said, Neo-Geo didn't have a fanbase and didn't have much in the way of developer support, and its games were insanely expensive. That is certainly not the case now.

Re:16 terraflops on a dead man's chest.

[LordVader717]

The point is that it's apparent Sony won't be delivering the 20 year leap they originally promised.
They said that this new chip would revolutionize every aspect of gaming including graphics. It turns out that it's not going to be used for that, and even if the visuals are impressive, it's basically what's being developed by Nvidia for PCs too.

Re:16 terraflops on a dead man's chest.

[Scudsucker]

Really? What makes you say that?

Elementary, my dear Watson. DVD was a giant leap over VHS in both quality and usability. But even if you had a small, old TV set and couldn't tell the difference, quality wise, between VHS and DVD, you could still take advantage of menus, chapter skipping, alternate languages, and fast forwarding without degrading the media. Blu Ray doesn't bring anything new to the table here.

What is does bring is increased storage and video quality, but you have to make a serious investment in an HDTV or projector to take advantage of it. The number of people who can pop $2500 for an HDTV & PS3 is dwarfed by the number of people who can buy a Wii for $200 - $300 and hook it up to their exisitng CRT TV. Furthermore, when the PS2 was released, DVD was already a well established standard with thousands of titles available. However, there are going to be a handfull of Blu Ray titles (in comparison) at the time of the PS3's release, so even if you DO have money burning a hole in your pocket, there isn't much reason to upgrade.

And remember that Blu Ray was supposed to be the trojan horse that brought millions of Blu Ray players into people's homes, so once they did buy a TV capable of taking advantage of 1080i, they would already have a high definition player - Sony's. But with consumers able to buy a 360 AND a Wii AND some games (if MS cuts the 360's price and the Wii lanches at $250) for the price of the high end PS3, that's not going to happen.

Sure, Sony will sell out their initial stock, but their price announcment is going to kill their pre-orders - gamers who would order months in advance and wait for their PS3 to come in rather than going with Microsoft or Nintendo.

In summary: Sony slit their own throats at E3. For both the PS3 AND Blu Ray. They are either going to do some frantic PR spinning along with a large price cut to regain what they've lost, or promise a blowjob with the purchase of each PS3.

Everything I've heard on the HD-DVD and Blue-Ray is that these players are going to start at about $600-800 by themselves and not drop that fast.

Nope. One manufacturer has already announced one for $500.

Re:16 terraflops on a dead man's chest.

[ccp]

Is there something in particular that is going to make buying a $400 gaming rig and a $500+ HDVD/BR rig a better deal than a single $600 device that does both

Dude, stop wasting your time arguing with these morons. You're right, they're not. Simple as that.

But, why do so many people fail to grasp that the whole PS3 business is just a loss leader intended to put a few million Blu-Ray players in living rooms before HD-DVD has any chance to gain some traction is beyond me.

Maybe if they had spent less time gaming and more working in the real world...

Cheers,
CC

Re:16 terraflops on a dead man's chest.

[Anonymous Coward]

Who in their right mind spends more than a single grand for a PC? All I need to do is head down to the local Fry's (or better yet, surf newegg.com) and for the same price as the PS3, get enough absurdly high-end parts to transform my current gaming rig into a beast that will kick the $#!* out of the PS3. And it can surf the internet, play music, store all my data, yadda yadda. Heck, I snagged a dual-layer DVD+RW burner for $50 last time I went to Fry's, and that's going to get a lot more use for the next couple of years than a Blu-Ray player, ESPECIALLY if HD-DVD winds up taking off better than BR. And hey, if BR does take off, I can wait a bit after it releases, get a second-gen internal PC drive for $100, and I'll STILL have a system that kicks the $#!* out of the PS3.

Dvorak?

[Anonymous Coward]

Did the article happen to be written by John C Dvorak?

And the food in the media room was bad too?

[mogabog]

Sounds like a mad journalist to me.

-A

People implementing glass houses...

[bADlOGIN]

Shouldn't throw stones. This is the current response (for anything) from www.cooltechzone.com.

mossession::store failed
DB function failed with error number 1062
Duplicate entry '1-' for key 2 SQL=INSERT INTO mos_session ( `session_id`,`time`,`username`,`gid`,`guest` ) VALUES ( '72b6c7b9e673a644d65da36a704bedda','1147723582','' ,'0','1' )

Perhaps they should try not self-destructing themselves;)

I bought a $600 plus video game system once...

[Mantrid]

I actually bought a $600+ video game system once. It was a 3DO. I bought another one 2nd hand (didn't pay full price), it was a NeoGeo. Now the NeoGeo obviously doesn't count :)

Here's the problem, you need mass market appeal to sell games, $600 consoles are not going to be mass market friendly. Especially when the 360 has been out for a lot longer for cheaper, and the Wii of course will be cheaper still, with their nifty new controller.

Bluray, now will that be the edge? PS2 was pricey, but it brought DVD to the table which was still fairly new and shiney. Here's the problem, I don't think Bluray is enough of a jump up from DVD - it's still a little round disc, it still plays movies in the same way. I really don't think the average consumer is going to give a rats arse. Plus the movies sound like they're going to cost a lot more. I don't think they can rely on the "AND IT'S A DVD PLAYER TOO!" thing this time around.

Man, I've never been a Nintendo fan..had a used N64, and a GBA for awhile, that's about it. Brother had a SNES which was some fun. I loved PS2, then XBox. But I really have to say, I think I'm going to have to go with Nintendo this year.

Used to be a loyal Sony customer...

[TED Vinson]

...until they burned me on a defective camcorder.

Used to consider the Sony brand to be an indicator of superior quality and service. Then my DCR/HC-30 camcorder began to act strangely just at the end of the warranty period.

Turns out many people were having the same problem, with the suspected cause being a bad batch of components used in part of the production run. http://www.camcorderinfo.com/bbs/t107753.html

Sony support wanted over $200 to repair it.

I politely discussed the problem and the suspected systemic flaw with multiple levels of the support staff, requesting a free or at least discounted repair.

They politely told me to go get bent.

So, none of my personal dollars, or the fairly large IT budgets I manage, will ever go to Sony again.

Good move Sony; implode at your earliest convenience.

Console Quality factors in

[crescentmage]

One issue that makes me even more leary of the PS3 is their history of console quality. Sony has a reputation of taking a bunch of powerful components and putting them in a way that can break very easily. I know a lot of people with PS2s, and most are on their second or even third machine. It might not seem so bad when you can pick a new one up for $150, but having to replace a $600 machine after a year or two will hurt. Even if it drops to $500 for the non-gimped version, spending $1100 without even factoring in games is not something I want to have to do.

Meanwhile, I still have my original NES, SNES, N64, Gamecube, and grey block gameboy (which survived being outside through a Michigan winter). Spending $200-$250 once for the next 10 years doesn't sound so bad.

But PS3 is way better

[Anonymous Coward]

Since back in the day when all my friends had a 2600 I have always kind of wanted a game console, but not enough to actually go out and get one. The PS3 is the first console I'm actually saving up to buy.

I have never seen anything comparable to the Killzone 2 trailer which some Sony VP claimed in an interview is real engine gameplay, not a cinematic or cut scene. If that turns out to be true, then at least the cream of the PS3 crop (maybe only a small handful of titles) will make PS3 irresistable.

As far as I can tell, all 360 games (up to and including Halo 3) could have just as easily been written for an XBox 1 or PS2, or even an earlier system. If you want to buy a gaming system that will play the best looking games, there isn't really any competition.

Jason

Re:But PS3 is way better

[AlgorithMan]

there is only one good game console: a PC
I bought a PC 11 years ago and everyonce in a while I upgrade parts of it, so it ran the newest games again...

what do you do if you have a game console? you buy complete new systems every 2-3 years and you can't do anything useful with it and don't even have a decent controller (you remember halo 1? they had to put hundreds of extra enemies in the pc version, because with the superior aiming device - the mouse - it was much too easy on pc)

now as for this "Killzone 2" statement: look for crysis - here you have some screenshots from gamestar.de http://www.gamestar.de/aktuell/screenshots/PlayerP icList.jsp?galleryId=1401 look at the one top left on the third page: http://www.gamestar.de/aktuell/screenshots/PlayerP icList.jsp?galleryId=1401&startAt=30 and say again that killzone 2 had so unbeleivably reallistic graphics that it couldn't be beaten...

Re:But PS3 is way better

[PenGun]

This is really not a game console. It is a media device that plays games. I plan to get the expensive one and network the puppy with my computer. That will give me HDMI out, a Blu-Ray drive and WiFi none of which I have now. It is a pretty good deal if you look at it that way.

    PenGun
  Do What Now ??? ... Standards and Practices !

Re:But PS3 is way better

[Anonymous Coward]

I expect a console to last at least 4 years, same as my PC. Sure you can update your PC piecemeal, but unless you replace everything (memory, CPU, graphics) every 4 years, you're going to start falling behind.

Crysis looks nicer than most nextgen games I've seen, but still not nearly as nice as KZ2, especially when you compare the trailers (not just screenshots). Another game that looks to be head and shoulders above the rest is Project Offset, and so far that appears to be PS3-only for now.

-Jason

Re:But PS3 is way better

[AlgorithMan]

well I've also seen video footage on crysis, which blows your mind... and I didn't find the killzone 2 screenshots that great... the texture-quality reminds me to 2002... HL2 already had better...

it might be true, that you have to update PC hardware more or less often, but I think this is really worth it - I have everything with it... multimedia, games, internet, office, graphic editing and especially: programming languages and math tools - as a computer scientist I need decent hardware anyways and software that just doesn't exist for game-consoles... how should I print 300 page lecture notes from a gamecube or so? I just want more from my entertainment system than just entertainment

also a PC doesn't bind you so toughly to your vendor... you can buy hardware upgrades (additional hd-space, internet ability, new media drives) from almost any vendor - if you've got a console it has its own interface that other vendors just don't produce hardware for, so you have to buy from the creator of the device (MS, Sony, Nintendo) and their products are usually MUCH overpriced!

Re:But PS3 is way better

[Z80a]

you really belive that sony really show realtime stuff on that killzone 2 video? really? ouch x.x just look at motorstorm of that same E3 and how it is on this E3,and you will see how probably killzone 2 is and er... the IA of the original killzone was worst than unreal tournament one x.x

Sony needs a Re-Org...

[Chordonblue]

I think a reorganization of the company is at hand with spin offs of non-profitables inevitable. For one thing, every division of Sony is clearly at odds with every other division. Numerous examples have already been stated above.

I would not be surprised to see a Re-Org happen as soon as July, but probably no later than December. If Sony is smart, they'll spin off their record company and get back to doing what they do best.

Re:Sony needs a Re-Org...

[ickoonite]

It won't happen. The Japanese don't really do that sort of thing. Sony won't die either, but it will slowly limp further and further into obscurity.

I'd say RIP, but I'd rather it burned horribly. Too many bad memories.

iqu :|

Re:Sony needs a Re-Org...

[mikael]

For one thing, every division of Sony is clearly at odds with every other division.

Is that any different from having outside competitors? If anything, that should give them extra flexibilty for changing market conditions.

Re:Sony needs a Re-Org...

[MrNiceguy_KS]

If anything, that should give them extra flexibilty for changing market conditions.

In Sony's case, no. For example: The market wants good MP3 players. Sony's audio division wants to produce good MP3 players. But the music division doesn't like MP3 players. So Sony's audio division makes DRM crippled players that use the bundled software to re-encode MP3s to a proprietary standard when transfering to the player. Nobody buys it. Years later Sony finally releases an actual MP3 player.

I think the same thing may be happening with the PS3. One division develops BluRay. They think "Hey, we've got the most popular video game console out there. Let's put BluRay in the next version so that BluRay will become the most popular video format." Meanwhile the Playstation division is cringing at the thought of trying to sell a console and games at a huge price premium, because they know that most people don't want to pay that much.

Re:Sony needs a Re-Org...

[UnknownSoldier]

> For one thing, every division of Sony is clearly at odds with every other division.

When you have the same company in court against _itself_ (distributors of music vs ripping devices vs selling cds to burn), I think that would be the first sign, that there is a bigger problem.

Re:Sony needs a Re-Org...

[apoc06]

maybe not, but theres probably a reason why they hired stringer to be the masthead. thats not something a japanese company would "normally" do either.

Re:Sony needs a Re-Org...

[ickoonite]

So they can blame it on the hairy white foreign devil when it crashes and burns...?

iqu :P

Re:Sony needs a Re-Org...

[apoc06]

preeee-cisely!!!!!

Re:Sony needs a Re-Org...

[mikael]

I get it now - Sony's computer division make laptop computer. Sony's memory division want to sell MemoryStick cards, so they get the computer division to bundle a MemoryStick read er in every computer, instead of maybe a FlashCard which everyone else seems to use.

Re:David Blaine Fails, GNAA claims responsibility

[Anonymous Coward]

I, for one, will be modding this shit UP!

Pissed off because...

[Anonymous Coward]

The Slashdot summary makes it sound like they're pissed off because they didn't get a debug unit. I wasn't at E3 to cover consoles but unless people were lying to me, units were either given out, or promised.

Simple Decision

[Anonymous Coward]

I currently own a PS2. If the Wii is $200 at launch, I'll buy one as soon as sufficient supply is available, because of the next generation of consoles it's the most innovative and the only one which will be a good value at launch. I'd like to buy a PS3 to play my PS2 games and new games on the PS3, but will wait until it's also $200, by which time we'll know whether any worthwhile new content will be available and whether it will play PS2 games without problems. If not, I'll keep my PS2. There are hundreds of great games for it, and they'll all be discounted. I'll never buy an Xbox 360. I don't have room for 3 consoles, of the 3 it looks like it will be the least innovative, and I don't like Microsoft.

Sony will struggle

[richman555]

Sony's strategy would work, if the competition would not be so good. The problem is the new Nintendo system is primed to be the next big thing. I am much more excited to play the new Nintendo Wii.

So it will beat the XBox 360?

[FatSean]

I mean...everyone seemed to think that the XBox 360 was the biggest debacle in console gaming ever...but I guess that was a few weeks ago...

Here's an example;

[avasol]

If you had to choose between games (Sony), controller (Wii), and Live (Microsoft), which would it be?
In my case, it'd certainly be the games.

Because in the end, that's what all this matters about. Kutaragi knows this, that's why he's being a cocky lil' bitch. He can afford to, 'cause Sony owns the games, just like they can laugh at those fucking consumers whining about DRMed music they're still consuming like mad, barfed forth from mediocrity.

We're doomed, I swear it. But just gimme those games now Sony, it'll be aaaaall goood.

Re:Here's an example;

[Adam Hazzlebank]

Yea that's right because playstation games are so bloody amazing! You know, all those racing games and murder simulators are really driving us towards a world where gaming is no longer considered a childish past-time but a form of interactive literature. Mumble mumble...

Re:Here's an example;

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes!!! If only there was a magic wand we could wave around!!! I for one long for the days when videogames were fruity and poorly translated!!! I CANNOT GET ENOUGH OF THAT ZELDA!!!

oh, wait, nintendo releases one or at most two titles per console per franchise and the magic wand is being touted as the latest in murder simulation, except the murder simulators are made by Ubi*Soft



* - Fucking

Penetration of HDTV...

[yoden]

sure, but we have 5 TVs. Only one is a HDTV. That's the one the xbox is connected to for a reason...

Re:Penetration of HDTV...

[rolfwind]

Yes, that is your situation.

But how many other parents are out there, middle to upper-middle class that also have several TVs and only 1 HDTV that acts as the primary (in the living room or their bedroom).

Then they buy junior an X-box/PS-3 - do they really want to hook it up to their single HDTV and have him hog it all the time? Or will just let him set it up to his (CRT) in his bedroom, and they don't care about BR because the discs cost too much and they just watch HD sattelite anyway:) Or junior just get tired to be restricted playing between 4 o'clock and 7 o'clock (or whatever) and move it to his room on his own accord^_^

BTW, will the PS3 have a connector to a computer monitor? Most monitors can easily have the required resolution, so I can it having much more market value that way.....

Re:Penetration of HDTV...

[DeadScreenSky]

But neither Xbox360 or PS3 are being sold with "junior" as the primary market. They are being sold to your average US gamer, http://www.theesa.com/facts/top_10_facts.phpwho happens to be ~30 years old. As prices for the consoles drop that is when you start getting them selling to large numbers of parents, but that's probably at least a few years out.

All these doom-sayers are ignoring the buyers.

[dannycim]

Here's the run-down for you market analysts who seem to ignore the gamers with deep pockets:

- The PS3 comes out at outrageous prices, but Playstation fanboys buy them in droves because of brand loyalty. (I admit I'm one.)

- Christmas comes along and a bunch of pimply-headed teenagers ask for a PS3 because they want game X. They don't care that Sony is evil, nor they they even understand what DRM or E3 stand for. All they want is to blow stuff up.

- A year after launch, the second generation of games comes out and the price is reduced by about $100. Suddenly, it's not so outrageous anymore and a bunch of PS2 owners out there think "What the heck, it'll play my current games anyway". More sales.

- A year later Sony re-coups development costs.

- PROFIT!$!$1$!

Sony has always behaved this way

[Anonymous Coward]

Sony has always had a well-deserved reputation for making some really neat gear, but exhorbitantly expensive, gratuitously incompatible with industry standards, and almost always with at least one major irritation (typically, a missing capability).

It's standard dogma in the professional video industry that one should never buy any Sony equipment that does not have at least an "A" suffix in the model name. Entirely too many sites got burned when they gritted their teeth and paid a premium price for the new XYZ-1234 gizmo, only to have Sony come out with the less expensive XYZ-1234A that has the feature that is missing on the XYZ-1234. What's more, Sony will lie and deny that there is any XYZ-1234A forthcoming, when their warehouses are full of them ready for immediate shipping after the announcement. There have been lawsuits over such incidents.

Sony's VAIO computers are quite nice. Yet if you seriously compare a VAIO with the competition, you'll discovered that you pay quite a premium for that VAIO. Not only that, but the quality isn't there; and forget it on extensibility or long-term reliability. To make things worse, many of the best VAIO models are only offered in the domestic Japanese market. I had a talk with some Sony engineers on this, and was basically told that Americans are too stupid to be able to use these better models.

When I replaced my VAIO laptop after three years (at which point it was falling apart and would no longer work reliably with an expansion memory card installed), I replaced it with a domestic Japanese Victor (the company known in the US as JVC) Interlink. It's like day and night. The Interlink is far studier, far more reliable, far better performing,... in every way superior.

for those about to FPS, Sony or Nintendo ...

[WillAffleckUW]

I'm sure you'll see many people who DO like FPS buying the Wii. It is, in fact, the only console which has a controller that lends itself perfectly to FPS's.

Sure, I saw an interesting gun mod for the Wii online from E3, so I expect you're right. But, at first glance, it looks like the PS3 will be much more FPS rich (in terms of quantity of games) than the Wii, based on the game lists I saw.

Now, if we were talking Samurai and Ninja - well, Wii has an edge, surprisingly over PS3, strange in that they're both from Japan.

Re:for those about to FPS, Sony or Nintendo ...

[rabbot]

No, i'm just talking about being able to aim quickly and accurately. I'm not even referring to a gun mod. The Wii offers the closest thing you'll get to a PC mouse, and any of us serious FPS people will tell you, a mouse is superior to a conventional console controller...by far.

Re:for those about to FPS, Sony or Nintendo ...

[DragonWriter]

Of course, since console games on even the PS2 can, if they are developed to use it, just use a mouse, rather than settling for the default controller, I'm not sure that having a default controller that's closer to a mouse is really going to be a big deal.

Re:for those about to FPS, Sony or Nintendo ...

[LordVader717]

Tried playing with a mouse sitting on a couch?

Re:for those about to FPS, Sony or Nintendo ...

[chrismcdirty]

Obviously, you need the Infinium Lapboard [usually this astroturf would link back to the companies site, but I can't seem to find any actually reference to the lapboard on Infinium's site]. It is totally radical when dealing with sitting on a couch and using a mouse and keyboard! It rocks my world!

Re:One of the things I find interesting about this

[Cadallin]

I would argue with this: "Nintendo used a format that was not in the best interest of the market (cartridges)." I think you're dead wrong. I think Nintendo stayed with the right media. Remember load times on the PSX? With that blazing fast 1x (or 2x?) CD-ROM drive? Remember the access times? I think the 3rd parties swarmed to CD because it was cheaper, and because it increased THEIR margins, and sony gave very generous liscensing terms in that generation. On the other side Nintendo stayed with the format that gave the far superior user experience. Just do a comparison today side by side (if you can find a working PSX, luckily N64's are rock solid so they're not a problem) which one is more pleasant to use?

Sony won that round by allowing hordes of cheap shovelware on their system, and the many many new gamers of that era went with the PSX because it could advertise "100x the games on the N64" nevermind that 95% of them were absolute garbage. And really, of that era the only games that have stood the Test of TIme are probably FFVII, on the PSX side; and Nintendo's exclusives on the other. Mario 64 is still awesome, as are the N64 zelda's, Smash Brothers and Nintendo's other titles, most of the 3rd party stuff was honestly pretty crap. The 3D revolution was a disaster.

Slashdot is self destructing.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's nice to see Zonk posting the same old inflammatory bullshit. It's no wonder Slashdot has been dying over the past months. It's gotten to the point where Slashdot has to post such articles because anything else has under 100 comments. At least Digg has an excuse for it's stupid posts.. *unregulated*. Anyhow it was nice 8+ years. Enjoy your demise. I hope the short term banner revenue outweighs long term failure.

Re:Slashdot is self destructing.

[PenGun]

You gotta understand Zonk hates Sony. There are no moderators for the top level fools and we just have to put up with their various predjudices. .

    PenGun
  Do What Now ??? ... Standards and Practices !

Costs

[Anonymous Coward]

All this talk about the cost of PS3 is really irritating me. People think that PS3 is more expensive when its really not.

Okay so we all know the specs of the $600 PS3. The PS3 has built in 802.11g and Blu-ray capabilities right out of the box, as well as a HDD that is 3x larger than offered by the $400 Xbox 360 Pro.

Say I want to add 802.11g capabilities, I would need to spend an extra $100 on a USB Wireless adapter. Let's also say I'd like to add HD-DVD capabilities when its released in November...that expansion is going to cost minimum of $150, there's no possible way it'll be less. Then we have the HDD situation, 20GB is puny, simply put, the drive can be upgraded to the larger size this fall, price unknown at the moment but I bet in excess of $100.

Overall, for $600, you get a COMPLETE package, with a wireless controller that has a built in battery pack, not AA batteries or an optional battery pack (more $$$). So what's it gonna be? A $600 PS3 or a $700+ Xbox 360? If M$ tries to pull that "Why buy a PS3 when you can buy a X360 and a Wii?" bullshit, I'll have to slap someone.

Re:One of the things I find interesting about this

[mmkkbb]

I don't recall the N64 being horrendously overpriced. The games were, but not as ridiculously so as the PS3 games.

There hasn't been a Saturn-style bomb yet, either. The Xbox 360 had launch games that functioned.

SONY PS3 is the winner no matter what

[BadassJesus]

You guys are buying into E3 momentum, Wii may steal the action for a moment, but, PS3 will have more time now to tune and rethink things up and finally they will emerge with the winning product. Price tag difference of $200 will be an non issue. PS3 is best of breed and will beat them all at the end, mark my words. Stronger brand always wins.

Re:SONY PS3 is the winner no matter what

[ostermei]

Stronger brand always wins.

Tell that to N64-era Nintendo. They were the brand to beat in video games at the time, and Sony (who, of course, was a complete no-name video-game-wise) knocked 'em off their throne. It's not unheard of for a strong brand to lose ground very quickly in this industry. Nintendo learned the hard way that you have to have more than just a strong brand to stay on top, and it's a very real possibility that Sony may learn the same lesson in the near future.

Re:SONY PS3 is the winner no matter what

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple is a stronger brand than Microsoft, but I'm typing this from a Windows PC and I'm pretty sure you'll read it on one.
Ferrari is stronger than Toyota, but who sells more cars?

Hell, Nintendo is probably a stronger brand than Sony when it comes to gaming, e.g.:
Q: What'cha doing?
A: Playin' Nintendo.
--
Q: What'cha doing?
A: Playin' Sony. --- sounds weird

Re:SONY PS3 is the winner no matter what

[BadassJesus]

A: Playin' Sony. --- sounds weird



A: Playin' on "Play Station 3" ---
of course this sounds much better then anything, and of course Sony Playstation 1 was a better brand then Nintendo at that time, so that only emphases my point about PS3 being a strong brand. Many non-tech dudes, yes those that buy Lincoln Navigators and other "strong" name crap, those ppl will buy PS3 over Wii (omg), or XBox360. Wait and see. And we tech-nerds can do nothing about this "fenomena".

Re:SONY PS3 is the winner no matter what

[Z80a]

man,a 600 dollar stuff,with crappy games,and gfx that loses to X-360 badly really can sell just because will got two good games at 2008-2009? saturn tried that :3

Yeah, whatever

[Anonymous Coward]

If your UID is to be believed, I've been reading Slashdot years longer than you have. And the entire time I've been here this site was just plain full of people who were talking all the time about how bad Microsoft was and how great Linux was. Maybe not everyone agreed on how great Linux was, but everybody knew Microsoft was bad and made bad products and whatnot.

But you know? Years and years have passed, but despite how much these "enthusiasts" apparently hated Microsoft, Microsoft wasn't hurt one bit. In fact Microsoft just got stronger and stronger. Their sales just keep going up and they're more powerful now than they've ever been.

Now, all of a sudden, Slashdot's done a 180. And now all of a sudden everyone on Slashdot is singing the praises of Microsoft and their XBox 360, and talking about how incredibly bad that the Linux-running PS3 is.

And I'm supposed to believe that this time, what the "enthusiasts" think is suddenly going to start making a difference?

I doubt it.

How much for the XBOX 360 with HD-DVD

[mikedoo53]

Let's see - XBOX 360 with HD - $399.99 + HD-DVD add-on $299.00 = @698.9 9

What does the XBOX 360 cost after the HD-DVD is released? Will the PS3 cost more then?

Re:How much for the XBOX 360 with HD-DVD

[Jason1729]

Who cares?

It's not like the games will use the large capacity discs any time soon. You don't know whether blue-ray or hddvd will win, so why would you spend $300 more now for a feature you won't use for a couple of years and might flop in the meantime?

Re:How much for the XBOX 360 with HD-DVD

[Anonymous Coward]

And you know the price of the HD-DVD add-on drive for the Xbox 360? Thats pretty remarkable considering it hasn't gotten a lot of mention anywhere else.

Yeah, right-o.

[antek9]

It's like you say: wussies will whine for a Wii, while Real Men (TM) will opt for a PS3. That's so evident, it even rhymes. ;)
You lost your cool and bought a 360? Sell it on ebay while you can! I heard there's gonna be 10 million units up there soon.

Please re-read the above, adding <humour> tags at will.

Re:One of the things I find interesting about this

[Anonymous Coward]

Nintendo lost all their 3rd party support with the N64.

It is not reasonable to produce cartridges compared to CD's. If you overproduce the cartridges you lose money. If you overproduce CD's you dump them in a landfill. For instance, Capcom lost money on SF2 for the Genesis. They didn't code too much or develop too much. They overestimated purchasing and it cost more to manufacture the cartridges than they got back in sales. This does not happen with CD's. CD's are worthless.

The Cartridge was also too small to hold FF7 which was supposed to be on the Dolphin. Tons of games on the Saturn and PS that were impossible on N64. But most importantly FF7.

Nintendo fucked themselves with the cartridge on the N64.
They half fucked themselves with the miniDVD on the gamecube.
And they are going to fuck themselves in many ways on the Wii.

Why? Because they are Nintendo, and they can and still make plenty of money.

That article's a little overeaching.

[iamghetto]

"PS3 is doomed, thanks to Sony's ignorant attitude."

Does anyone think for a -second- that the PS3 isn't going to sellout when it's launched? Check the current Slashdot poll, amongst slashdotters PS3, inspite of everything, still has more people wanting the PS3 than (want or have) the Xbox 360.

Believe it or not, almost no one knows about the PS3's "lack luster" performance at E3. We do, but the majority of people who play video games aren't glued to the net during E3 and all the magazines are going to relate to people is the pretty PS3 pictures and hype. Now one really cares that the system is bigger than previously thought, or that it was one less HDMI & ethernet port. Most people don't even know what an HDMI is!

And yes, I'm talking about gamers. Not computer geeks like us on slashdot, but all my friends who come over to my house for Winning Eleven Soccer tournaments or to play NHL 06. Trust me, they don't even know what E3 is (most people don't). But they sure know what the PS3 is, all the fun they had on the PS2, and what they -hope- the PS3 will be.

Don't you think it's a little early to say the PS3 is failure? If nothing else it willll fly off the shelves in Japan (unlike the 360) and for that reason alone it will be a success. Have you guys never heard of Final Fantasy?? :)

One other point I'd like to address. People seem to be comparing the $599 PS3 to the $399 Xbox 360 when a far more apropos comparison is the $499 PS3 to the $399 Xbox 360. They have the same size of HDD, both lack HDMI out, both lack native wireless networking. The $499 PS3 plays Blu-Ray discs, the $399 360 plays DVDs. If we're lucky as consumers, MS will sell the the HD-DVD add-on for $100 (i doubt that cheap though).

With this scenario totals, we now have two systems with similar functionality at hypothetically the same price point.

For those who don't want to pay for the Blu-Ray player, hence don't like the $499 PS3 price point... I know it's a $100 extra for Blu-Ray or HD-DVD, but it's not something I could see someone regretting having purchased 2 or 3 years down the road.

Oh, and I almost forget to mention Sony's PS3 Linux where they're basically giving us full permissions to homebrew our faces off (mame, snes, genesis, n64!). I think that alone will sell a fair number tech-savvy people on the PS3s.

I'm all for healthy debate, but it just seems to me like people are losing perspective on the facts of PS3 v. Xbox 360 and they just keep on regurgitating the same sound bites (Dollar wise, Xbox 360 + Wii == PS3) in these threads without actually looking at what each potentially offers.

Sony fanboys, please give up now

[UES]

I can see the Microsoft ads this November now:

Same Grand Theft Auto, exclusive online content, Halo 3 exclusive, $200 cheaper for the console and $15 cheaper for the games.

I can see the Nintendo ads this November now:

Why spend $1000 to train your child to be a virtual murderer? For less than 1/2 the cost, everyone in the family can play our games and get a little exercise to boot. Oh, and if you buy DS with Brain Age, Grandma won't get Alzheimers.

The response from Sony:

Buy our exquisitely crafted proprietary movie box. If you think it's too expensive, you obviously don't appreciate quality. It plays all the same games as the XBox 360!

Re:Sony fanboys, please give up now

[Ragnarrokk]

....Except Halo 3.

*Large chunk of consumers leave*

Re:Sony fanboys, please give up now

[WillAffleckUW]

Why spend $1000 to train your child to be a virtual murderer? For less than 1/2 the cost, everyone in the family can play our games and get a little exercise to boot. Oh, and if you buy DS with Brain Age, Grandma won't get Alzheimers.

Actually, I'm the Data Manager for the UW ADRC (translation - Alzheimers). It's not that Grandma won't get Alzheimers, it's just that Grandma will have a higher brain level and when she does get Alzheimers, you won't notice until much later. It's most useful with Dementia (related), which is much more treatable.

Now, if Grandma gets a DS and kiddies get one of those Wii games that flash at high speeds, are you sure they won't all go into catatonic seizures together? ... the family that plays together, suffers together ...

Note that you can get these games for Sony's PS3 and PSP as well, they're very popular in Japan. US English translation ports may not have been done for those platforms yet, but at least they can play Sodoku.

*whine*

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, that's a mighty long way of saying 'whaaaah.. sony won't give me a free PS3 to. Don't they know that they should ph3ar my blog - i'm in the press dangitallanyway.'

whatever dood. Sony's not going to die because of this.

Sayonara, Sony

[rjung2k]

I was all set to buy a PS3 last Monday -- I've still got a stack of PS1 discs ready to play, and I wanted a next-generation system that would work nice with my 50" widescreen TV.

After hearing about the $499 price tag, I walked away.

After hearing that the $499 base unit lacked Wi-Fi, memory card support, and HDMI, I ran away.

At this point, it's the Wii for me. I'll have to toss those discs, but at least I can get a console that has widescreen, Wi-Fi, and 480p standard -- and it doesn't cost an arm and two legs. The fact that I can finally introduce my non-gaming relatives to gaming is a plus.

Great error message.

[pkulak]

"mossession::store failed DB function failed with error number 1062 Duplicate entry '1-' for key 2 SQL=INSERT INTO mos_session ( `session_id`,`time`,`username`,`gid`,`guest` ) VALUES ( 'c849cfe4321ebd80998a3d2151c759eb','1147726413','' ,'0','1' )" That's exactly the kind of error message you want to send out to the whole world. :D

You can see how this came about:

[sbaker]

Step 1: BluRay has to become the next DVD standard. 'Big Sony' demands that - so the PS3 has to have BluRay no matter what the game console development team want to do.

Step 2: BluRay is too expensive for Xmas '05 - something over $1000 for a bare drive - since a $1300 game console won't sell, PS3 is delayed a year in the hope that prices will drop. This gives Xbox 360 a chance that it doesn't deserve because (even without BluRay) the PS3 is a better platform.

Step 3: One year later, BluRay is still too expensive - but we already said we'd have it and if we back down now, it'll be horribly humiliating. So we'll make a cheap, cut-down model PS3 and an up-market model.

Step 4: Darn - all of the games makers thought they'd have BluRay capacities and speeds - so we can't downgrade to a regular DVD - even for the low-priced model - so even the low priced model is insanely expensive! (There is a well known marketting phenomena: Most parents will spend about $300 on an Xmas present for their kids - most won't spend $400 - let alone $500)

Step 5: So Sony over-price the console - but they'll still be losing BIG money on every one they sell.

Step 6: Consoles almost always sell at a loss - the gap is filled by charging game developers for the privilage of selling games for this platform. So to fill that large price gap, developers will be paying more $$$ to Sony than they would to Microsoft and Nintendo...so fewer agree to work on that platform. Hence not so many impressive games at E3.

Step 7: The uptake of HighDef TV in 2006 will be far less than predicted in 2004/2005 - so not enough people will buy the high end PS3 model - and since you can't upgrade the low end PS3 into the high end PS3 (as you can with Xbox 360) and NOBODY believes you'll be able to watch "non-DRM'ed BluRay movies" on the low end machine - you just blew the ONLY reason to screw things up back at step #1 above!

Step 8: Nintendo decide to go WAY downmarket and build something utterly Wiierd with not much more performance than a GameCube - so now all the great "serious" games developers have only one platform - and with the PS3 being a year late - they ALL go to Microsoft.

Congratulations Sony - you just gave 100% of the market to Microsoft - don't expect to be in the console business much longer.

What they DESPERATELY need to do is to dump BluRay for PS3 - come out with something cheaper than XBox 360 with just a DVD in it. Most people won't care because most people don't have a TV set that'll support BluRay and there aren't enough BluRay movies out there to make enough people want it *yet*.

The Wii's only advantage (low price and that weird controller thingy) would be dramatically reduced by a cheaper PS3 - which also has a 6 degree of freedom controller and could run games like 'tennis' in the same way. Underpricing the Xbox 360 would be a huge win - and having better performance than anything else out there would seal the deal.

So - Sony has to dump BluRay in the PS3. Heck, they can always come out with a PS4 next year - assuming the drives come down enough in price.

Re:You can see how this came about:

[Anonymous Coward]

The Wii's only advantage (low price and that weird controller thingy) would be dramatically reduced by a cheaper PS3 - which also has a 6 degree of freedom controller and could run games like 'tennis' in the same way.
Also is an incorrect word here, as the Wii tracks the controller's position in relation to a sensor, while the DS3 just uses accelerometers. Anyways, holding the DS3 in any logical way for use as a tennis rack would be awkward, to say the least.

Re:You can see how this came about:

[Anonymous Coward]

The Wii's controller does more than just have motion sensing with 6 degrees of freedom, like the PS3 controller. The Wii actually knows where you are in the room. Also, the "nunchuck" also has motion sensing, so with the Wii you have both hands able to have six degrees of freedom.

Is that enough to make the Wii a big seller? I don't know, but I am excited about at least giving it a try in the stores, that's for sure.

Not a critique on the point of your post -- I just wanted to point out that the PS3 controller does not quite do everything the Wii controller does.

Re:You can see how this came about:

[SpeZek]

The Wii's only advantage (low price and that weird controller thingy) would be dramatically reduced by a cheaper PS3 - which also has a 6 degree of freedom controller and could run games like 'tennis' in the same way. Underpricing the Xbox 360 would be a huge win - and having better performance than anything else out there would seal the deal.

EXCUSE ME? The PS3's controller could NOT do tennis. It detects tilt and acceleration. Let me explain: Ever seen those Kirby Tilt n' Tumbles? OR WarioWare: Twizted? That little sensor is in the PS3 controller (plus a [crappy] accelerometer)! Wow, not so impressive now is it? Check your facts.

Sony's Last 2 Words...

[vivarey]

BLU-RAY

$600 -- wtf ?

[Tsiangkun]

So when I see $600, I just wonder, are these going to be available in stores, or is Sony moving the first batch directly on E-bay ?

The author is forgetting ...

[Anonymous Coward]

that what sells a console is not the technology but the game. Just release final fantasy [fill in number] and it'll fly off the shelves. Every PS2 owner that I know got the system because of that game. So it could be technologically garbage, but the FF community can sustain a console all by itself. If microsoft got an exclusive deal with square enix for FF, I have no doubt that it can crush sony in an instant.

everythings going down

[AlgorithMan]

Its strange how often I lately read from people predicting the end of something - does everyone have psychic powers nowadays?

* apple predicts the end of the pc (although they recently started using an OS and a CPU that comes from PCs)
* I've read predictions on the end of apple (on slashdot some month ago)
* linux users predict the end of microsoft (for 14 years now)
* microsoft predicts the end of linux (because they want to sue it off the market)
* firefox users predict the end of the internet explorer (although it still has 85% market share)
* Hollywood predicts the end of big-budget films (because of piracy, not because of the incredible prices they demand)
* microsoft predicts the end of google
* AMD and Intel predicted each others end
* slashdotters predicted the end of sony because of the rootkit
* Andy Tanenbaum predicts the end of monolithic kernels
...
...

quote Dieter Nuhr: "if you have no clue.... just shut up for once!"

You are assuming that people NEED HD content.

[hkmwbz]

"Blu-ray is the next generation format for watch-at-home movies."

Really? And why would Joe Average need a BluRay player? Most people don't even have HD-TV sets, and they sure aren't going to pay their pants off for them either. I am one of them. My current TV works fine. I'm not replacing it until it's dead on its own, and when it does, I will certainly not pay insane amounts of money for some hi-tech crap I won't even need.

"Stand alone players will cost $600 to $800 at the time the PS3 launches but you won't get a game machine with those."

You are assuming that people want higher definition media, and that DVDs aren't good enough. I can tell you right now that DVDs are good enough for everyone I know. It's good enough for me. It has excellent quality already as far as I am concerned.

Your assumptions are simply bogus. BluRay will not be a "must-have" when the PS3 is released, and it won't be for many, many years - IF EVER! Most people don't have HD-TVs, and they won't go out and buy them just like that either, because they are incredibly expensive.

So there is no demand for HD content, and therefore BluRay is irrelevant for the next few years. If it does become popular, prices of standalone players will drop, and yet again PS3's built-in BluRay will be completely irrelevant.

Yes, Sony has been dying for a while

[kiehlster]

Ever since EverQuest 2 was announced, SoE has failed to put out anything truely original and worth playing. Likewise, Playstation has failed to be inovative and has turned toward hate tactics to gain interest. I almost wonder if changes in Sony's administration is to blame for all the junk they've been trying to sell.

Hahahahaha... no

[brian0918]

"Joke all you want at the small size of the 'tech' crowd, but enthusiasts hold a great deal of sway over the general public. If someone doesn't know which tv to buy, they'll ask their techie friend about what he/she recommends. And go into any electronics store(NOT best buy) and you'll see passionate people who won't recommend a POS."

You're joking, right? Maybe that's how it works in your inner circle of internet friends, but the tech crowd has little or no sway over the general public. Most people just buy whatever looks nice (ie, whichever one has a shinier box) or, more likely, whatever they think is "saving" them the most money. "Wow, $200 off this $1200 TV (that only cost $50 to make)! Now I can go out and buy $200 in lottery tickets! Yay!!!"

Re:Hahahahaha... no

[masdog]

Or...even more likely, what the sales "associate" at Walmart or BestBuy passes off as good.

Re:Hahahahaha... no

[mgabrys_sf]

don't forget the extended warrenties - otherwise known as retail for PWNED!

Divine justice?

[Spy der Mann]

I just remember the rootkit fiasco and the RIAA business, and suddenly I feel so happy about this news... >:)

Re:Divine justice?

[Anonymous Coward]

And what is amazing is how with the RIAA/MPAA and rootkit how anyone is STILL willing to use the only effective vote they have - and vote for Sony.

Couldnt it be argued...

[kyle (in stereo)]

That the Saturn wasnt a total failure? It had some great games, and some small market penetration, and it definitely went well with the arcade fanbase.

Re:One of the things I find interesting about this

[kyle (in stereo)]

Dunno how they would be screwing themselves with the Revolution. It uses standard sized DVD esque discs instead of the 3cm size they used last gen.

Anyone remember Dragon Quest VII jumping ship from the N64 to the PSX? I do.

the PS2 *is* HD

[Brit_in_the_USA]

Go to the screen options menu in Gran Turismo 4 on the Ps2....

You can play in 1080i (if you have component cables).

Looks very nice (and impressive for such an old console).

All praise the great PS3, ruler of them all.

[JackAxe]

The Wii has more than momentum, it has changing power. It's the only system that can offer something new and at an affordable price. I doubt Sony will be on top this time around.

Stronger brand can only carry a company so far and Sony has ticked off many peeps, including me with their missleading products. Sony's biggest problem is how they've used their brand. Sony has been riding its name for years, while neglecting their customers and the quality of their products.

<]=)

new adds

[Anonymous Coward]

M.S.: Where do you want to beet the hell out of you and 3trillion best friends?

N: Now your playing with power!. No-Frendo-and-sony-thumping-power!

SONY: MOOOOOOM, Nintendo and M.S. are beeting me to a pulp again!

Completely Disagree

[Nazmun]

Why in the world would they not use a next-gen tech for optical media. I've got a PS2 game that uses two discs (Shadow heart) and considering that ps3 games will be displayed in hd along with any fmv (FF XIII will probably be heavy on that) games will start using more disc space then fits in a DVD. Although on the pricier side this will clearly be an impact on games like ff.

Also by manufacturing 4 million ps2's in the first 3-4 months they will be well into the mass manufacture of their new tech. This will drive prices down for blu-ray players and assuming they don't charge a metric fuckton for the licensing this greater tech (everything about blu-ray as a format is superior to hd-dvd from storage capacity per layer to the quality of the disc--they have this awesome new scratch-proof coating).

Next, while many people here like to argue that hd is expensive and it doesn't have a high adoption rate thats true for now. But HD equipment is still quite cheap... I bought a decent quality 36 inch JVC tube tv back in the day for $1000ish that i still use. I can buy a HD LCDTV of around 32inches for that price, thats definately what i plan on going with in the future for obvious reasons.

Two, it's the applications that drive new technology. The only reason HD is not prominent is because there haven't been too many apps till recently. Feature Films came out in standard resolution, very few local channels supported hd, and only certain channels (sports being big) supported hd on cable/sattelite). If the PS3 generates the necessary hype around launch time and provides two new application it may even help drive HDTV sets (with the help of the 360 and standalone hd-drives of both formats).

As for price... who would have thought that people would by $400 dollar portable music players of poor sound quality (i've got an ipod--even the headphones aren't of high quality) ten years ago. If Sony's marketting can make the ps3 seem like a value then it will sell.

MODS:

[Anonymous Coward]

Clue 1: the cell peaks at around 200Gflops.

I don't know about the rest of you all...

[Quaunaut]

...but I don't see why everyone is bashing the PS3. Out of the main consoles, XBox came out with almost nothing big and new and exciting in terms of games(Oh, another Call of Duty, more big franchises, oh my God a Halo 3 trailer that reveals NOTHING.), Nintendo came with tons and tons of nice gameplay stuff, but no major series other than their big 3(which didn't save Nintendo in the GameCube generation), and then theres the PS3, with new info on the controller(motion sensor ftw), Darkhawk(which uses it), FFXIII(its 3 versions), Heavenly Blade, etc etc. Saying Sony is gonna die merely because of price or their current business styles is rather pretentious- people said the same about the PS2...and we all know what happened there.

Re:I don't know about the rest of you all...

[Anonymous Coward]

Sony took the controller idea from Nintendo.

Re:I don't know about the rest of you all...

[21chrisp]

people said the same about the PS2...and we all know what happened there.

That's funny... I don't remember it that way. In fact I remember it being extremely late to market, in extreme short supply for almost two years... and despite the fact that the Dreamcast beat it to market by years and had competitive specs.. EVERYONE said they were waiting for a PS2 beacause *drumroll* "it plays DVDs" (rolls eyes). I don't remember anyone saying PS2 was doomed, what I remember was amazement that a system that was a year from release date was already beating the snot out of a what was probably the most revolutionary console ever created (to date).

In the end everyone got their PS2 and found that the DVD functionality didn't amount to much of anything. Most people rarely used it and they just used the PS2 for games. That one time marketing fiasco worked for Sony then, but now I think people are pretty much on to it. Now people are looking at the games and game functionality and really don't care about anything else. No one really cares about Blu-Ray.

More and more people are resenting forking out a boatload of money for more polygons. Parents are resenting their kids crying for a $500-$600+ gaming systems and being left with the choice of (A - spending a rediculous amount of money on a christmas present or B - have to deal with the kid's "crushed dreams" and explain that the neighbor's kid is just a spoiled brat). Especially when the kid really just wants to play the next Final Fantasy and could give a crap about polygons. Hell.. _I_ just want to play the next Final Fantasy and don't give a crap about polygons.

Re:I don't know about the rest of you all...

[Anonymous Coward]

So tell us, what was it like to spend the vast majority of 2000 and 2001 on LSD?

Are you noticing any lasting effects (delusions / retardation / excitement over a shitty motion sensing stick)?

Inquiring minds (and probably the GNAA, though they're tightlipped about such things) would like to know.

call it BETA-RAY

[Shivetya]

or whatever.

The sheer numbers of DVD oriented material will keep DVD as the prefered medium for a long time. How many attempts have been made at getting better that CD music that have failed?

DVD supplanted VHS for various reasons, picture and sound quality were the major areas. Followed by compactness and durability. Yet it wasn't an overnight success. Hence setting deadlines on Beta-ray or HD-DVD isn't anything but stacking the deck

Re:call it BETA-RAY

[16K Ram Pack]

The big problem is that people need a TV upgrade too.

I know there are people out there who can go out and spend hundreds on a new TV, so that they can watch movies at higher resolution, but it's nowhere near the top of my priorities.

Re:One of the things I find interesting about this

[dhamsaic]

I would contend that both Symphony of the Night and Metal Gear Solid have stood the test of time as well. Both N64 and PSX have their great games.

Fanboyism: the new conformity

[Zhe Mappel]

You have to marvel at those rallying around corporate flags. Gaming is gaming is gaming--to most people. But to the chattering classes who fetishize a given box or brand, it's the new conformity.

Indeed with the nationalist angle being worked for Microsoft's "American" product (manufactured, of course, anywhere but in America), you see an ugly strain seeding itself in little consumer minds. It's like a flashback to the 50's with the knuckle-draggers fearing reds everywhere.

Clearly Sony's product in this round is superior, as Microsoft's was (barely) last gen. It's all timing, vision, and investment, folks. No amount of predicating your identity on a corporate product can change that; nor does any billion dollar corporation's success reflect upon your life. You are not the corporation. You just buy its stuff, or you don't. Try to keep that in mind, eh?

Mistakes? No.

[tyson.cpp]

Sony didn't really make any mistakes this generation. Nintendo, however, aggressively innovated. This creates a paradigm that Sony HAD to make some mistakes. Nintendo gained a lot of momentum and galvanized a nostalgic atmosphere, further developing this paradigm.

They lost their own cost the cooperate plot

[dinther]

I think Sony really lost plot on the PS3 saga. I imagine that the development of the PS3 was extremely ambitious as Sony tends to be with their technology. This time they simply didn't even get close to being ready for E3. I bet there was a lot of smoke and mirrors going on to make the PS3 look more finished than it really is. Add to that the fact that Blu Ray at this stage is another propriety Sony standard that pushes up the PS3 price to $600 and you have yourself a big loser.

PS3 has lot's of potential but I think Sony should rip out the Blu Ray player today. Drop the price to $450 and keep quiet until they are really ready next year or so. Then make a big bang and show off the awesome power of the PS3 hardware properly.

Sony has shot itself in the foot by showing up at E3 this year and trying to use the PS3 as leverage to get Blu Ray in peoples homes. Don't these clowns learn! As for Sony products, I avoid them because so many times did I see cool Sony products only to find a year later that the product and consumables have vanished from the shelves.

Also I don't trust an electronics manufacturer that is also a media publisher because they are way too motivated to load up their electronics with DRM crap. After all Sony is among those suing their own customers for ripping Snoy CD's using Sony equipment to play on Sony MP3 players. How can you possibly trust a company that does that!

with it's current attitude Sony is going down the gurgler and I love to help helping by not buying any of ther stuff (not even CD's).

Wiiiiiiiiiiiiii

PS3 most powerful?

[Hortos]

Ok I've been reading that the PS3 is more powerful than an Xbox 360, I'm not sure how that is I mean yeah the cell processor has the 7 SPEs but aren't they next to useless for game processing? Also the GFX card in it is just a current gen 7900GTX 512 without the 512 its only 256. The Xbox360 has on the other hand 3 Full Processors equal to the general processor of the Cell chip, and a unified shader GFX solution than also has embedded ram all its own separate from the system that operates at very high speed. Not to mention the Blu-ray reader on the PS3 is reads almost half as many megabytes per second as the DVD player on Xbox360. So if I'm missing some super piece of hardware thats supposed to just make the PS3 the end all could someone let me know.

Re:PS3 most powerful?

[Z80a]

of course you re missing PS3 will have the incredible BLAST PROCESSOR! tha makes it run sonic better than anything else! it also will acelerate RIDGEEE RACEEER! (this was why sonic locked up on E3? XD)

reality check? -- how do you consumers think?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm a little baffled with the discussion here.
anyhow, what's up with the price of a PS3.

I'd like to put things in perspectiv, i mean the perspectiv of your consuming habits, and expectations as to what he gizmos you buy gives you.

ok, a 600$ bill is expensive for a video game console.
But how about the 400$ that a lot of people pay for there mobile phone/PDAs and the ridiculously prices for 1h/month of wireless phone call.
No one scream to much about that in comparaison to the endless enjoyment time that a good videogame can procure.. i'm a soulcalibure on Dreamcast kinda guy (retired on top of it).

Also, people don't seem to realise, but a PS3 with a decent Linux port, could be a very viable PC replacement. I'm not saying that's the case, but people, common, taking Sony for being so dumb not to think about this is the dumbest thing i read. They may not go Linux way, but obviously they are taking sometime that the market gives them (read microsoft), to further investigate that route...
Yes, i might be guessing wrong, heck, that's what they should do, and it may well be Nintendo doing it eventually. Who cares?

or should i say "what do you care?"

The promise of Software/hardware companies working on greate innovations to help peoples life for a greater good in general, is falacious, and long uncovered, proven big lie.
Same for commercial TV.

what matter is our '$$$' source being connected to the most hyped/beautifully crafted pump...

I'm happily digitally dividing myself from this not ecologically friendly frenzy

Re:reality check? -- how do you consumers think?

[9Nails]

$600 for a game console is appalling. I've even gamble that you do not get a game packaged into that price either. Nor shall you take a Blu-Ray movie in exchange for your hard earned money. And I have strong suspicions that you will unfortunately have to pay extra to bring a friend along with the cost of additional controllers. For the Cadillac model of game console systems, the offer seems shockingly thin.

Your comparison to a $400 cell phone is interesting. Especially when I considered that several years ago I had happily purchased two phones for $600. My justification was that the phones could be used for emergency (and have been) and the service that I selected made them more affordable than the "freebie" phones that came with a restrictive contract. I could mention that my phones do not require an HD Monitor to the tune of $700 HDTV to view who's calling.

PS3's media capabilities are intriguing. I have heard rumors which mention Cell's power to run hundreds of HD movies simultaneously. Talk about information overload! Yet, I wonder the cost of hundreds of tuners or the array of hard drives required to feed each of those signals.

I also would be interested in Linux running on the PS3. But I dare to ask which individual has such time and talent for taking on IBM's Octopiler.

Certainly this "game console" has plenty to offer. And it could be spectacular either as a flop or a success.

I'll Call my Company Crapple

[Nazmun]

I'll charge 2x as much for my mp3 player and market it to be cooler then the rest. Will my company blow up too? I think Dvorak predicted it to be so again.

A case study for all product managers...

[winningham.2]

Pay attention product managers of the world; There is no doubt that Sony went backwards at E3 and I feel that comes down to Sony simply not managing expectations. In my opinion, it looks as if Sony's "bean counters" are in charge of launching the PS3, and therefore, their obsession with costs vs. value vs. the competition led them astray.

On the technical side of things, I can see paying $300 USD on a video game console and perhaps paying $300 for a high-def DVD player. In addition, the argument that a Blu-ray player will be $600-$800 at the time of the PS3 release is valid, again on the technical side of things. So techinically the PS3 is a huge value, but what were are talking about is the difference between "happy" and "right".

On the marketing side, Sony lost most of its momentum at E3 and it appears most consumers are not happy or feel deflated after the event. Even after Microsoft's somewhat successful Xbox 360 launch, Sony was carrying a ton of momentum behind the PS3's launch. Somewhere they fell victim similar to what Microsoft is falling victim to on the OS side of things; Over promising and under delivering.

Sony has delayed it's launch and watered down its feature list, while at the same time targeting a price range that is unrealistic to the expectations of most consumers. Sony must realize that the market has not forgotten the Beta vs VHS battles (and others) and one could argue that the PSP handheld has been an absolute bust for Sony. So both their past, and present history points to trouble and sometimes the perception is greater than the reality.

Sony missed it's target at E3 and now will have much work to do before the official launch in November. My opinion is that Sony must try to use Apple-like marketing techniques to move the Sony PS3 upscale from the Xbox 360 just as Apple has tried to do with their whole product line. If Sony couldn't hear the market before E3, I guarantee they can hear it now. The price is way too much for the perceived value of the machine vs. the competition. In the end, Sony needs to under promise and over deliver if it is to maintain any of its previous market share.

One word

[Anonymous Coward]

Blutamax

Re:Tunnel Vision strikes again and again

[EmperorKagato]

From the page:

I can tell you, from being at E3 all week, noone talked about PS3 and how great it was. In fact, noone really talked about it at all - except how expensive it was.

Whenever I talked to anyone, the conversation was either about Nintendo or the 360's games.

by Robert Summa on 05/14/06 02:59 PM

Worse Than Damn Lies

[blainn]

Looking around at a lot of these posts, it seems even the basic facts aren't being referenced (just more alarmist articles from other sources). Let's get back to basics for a second.

from google finance

Sony (ADR)
2006 Revenue (USD): 67.53B
Net Profit Margin: 1.47%
2006 Employees: 152,700

Microsoft (MSFT)
2005 Revenue (USD): 39.79B
Net Profit Margin: 31.59%
2005 Employees: 61,000

What do these basic, high level overviews tell me?

Not much, really. I don't even know how revenue is calculated, and based on the posts I've seen, neither do you. It's okay. If you think the PS3 costs too much, that's fine. If you think Blu-Ray will fail, that's fine. But please, pretty please even, don't confuse your convictions with actual knowledge.

There are three kinds of ignorance: ignorance, abject ignorance, and quoting random statistics.

Re:Worse Than Damn Lies

[Burning1]

Revenue is the amount of money a company takes in, not accounting for expenses.

Profit margin is the amount of the revenue the company keeps vs. the amount they spent.

Profit is the amount of money that the company keeps after expenses.

By your figures:

Microsoft made $12.57 billion in profit.
Sony made $1 billion in profit.

Re:Worse Than Damn Lies

[centipetalforce]

Well I;ve only been self employed a little while, but even though sony's income is almost twice as much, they have far less room for profit being in the hardware business, making any failure more critical. This won't (and can't) sink sony, though, they are too huge.

Re:Worse Than Damn Lies

[Kattana]

Dont rely on numbers alone when looking at the situation.
Sony invested/is investing their revenue in the CELL architechture and blu-ray.
Microsoft already launched their console and games and is showing profit from that.
(and although its not really relevant, M$ makes their money on overpriced software which isnt going to be going so good looking at vista, whereas sony actualy makes alot of things, many of which require investment in manufacturing)

Re:Worse Than Damn Lies

[poot_rootbeer]

Sony (ADR)
2006 Revenue (USD): 67.53B
Net Profit Margin: 1.47%
2006 Employees: 152,700

Microsoft (MSFT)
2005 Revenue (USD): 39.79B
Net Profit Margin: 31.59%
2005 Employees: 61,000

What do these basic, high level overviews tell me?

What they tell me is that Microsoft's revenue per employee is about 50% higher than Sony's, and that MS has a much healthier profit margin than Sony does.

That doesn't mean that Sony is on the brink of going out of business, but if I had to pick one company that will still be around in 50 years, based only on the figures listed above...?

I guess it depends on cost of HD-DVD/BR.

[arthurh3535]

I think many people are forgetting that the PS2 owes a great deal of its success to the fact that it was a very inexpensive DVD player, not just a game system.

Now that more people play games, it's going to come down to cost of your game system plus your media center.

Is a HD-DVD/Blue-Ray going to cost $500? And a gaming system with grundles of features for $400?

$500 dollars for both could be a steal .

Sony is a terrible company

[Denver_80203]

I wish everyone was as nice as microsoft

Re:Sony is a terrible company

[DanHibiki]

yeah they won't over charge you on anything. Microsoft is ever so nice and make one hell of a stable OS.

Re:One of the things I find interesting about this

[PsychicX]

Yet at the same time, PS2 sales are quadruple that of the Gamecube, and frankly profits are of surprisingly little importance in this sector, which is why MS can afford to lose 4 billion through the Xbox generation and not even care.

Hi, Ken!

[Rimbo]

It's not a question of the PS3 being overpriced. it's prices inexpesively for what it is.

What it is? It is a game machine. If you want to talk about teraflops, the SDSC has machines that will run circles around any number of PS3's, but none of them are very good at playing games.

Sony doesn't think of the PS3 as a game machine, either. But their customers do, and will judge it as such. That's so important it's worth putting in bold: People will judge the PS3 as a game machine. They will not judge it as a high-performance computer or as a "digital media hub" or as a Blu-Ray player. Even though it is all those things, no one wants it for that. They want to use it for games.

Re:Hi, Ken!

[Anonymous Coward]

People will judge the PS3 as a game machine. They will not judge it as a high-performance computer or as a "digital media hub" or as a Blu-Ray player. Even though it is all those things, no one wants it for that. They want to use it for games.

You might want to be careful with your quantification there. Personally, I plan on getting a PS3 and using it for things besides gaming.

Re:Hi, Ken!

[rafael_magu]

That's gotta be the most interesting and eye-opening comment I've read about this subject all week (last week too). Yeah, I know PS3 will be useful for a load of functions, so is the Xbox 360, but the main market still sees them as consoles. And that's not gonna change in the short or mid-term. So, unless Sony changes this perception, either through heavy marketing or lower prices, they might have a bomb in their hands.

Re:Hi, Ken!

[Rimbo]

You're right; I was exaggerating. I do know people who enjoy using the Xbox as a media center, for whom the idea of a central media server appeals.

There are two problems that I see.

1) Set top boxes / stereo components typically do up to one thing easily and well. A "media center" is a device that needs to do a lot of things well. This is why, although the Xbox is a vital part of Microsoft's digital home vision, Microsoft sees the PC as being the main media center. Apple is the same way.

2) The market for people who want general-purpose media centers in a set top box, good or bad, is much smaller than Sony needs for the PS3 to succeed. Even the people who buy the PS3 or Xbox as a media center expect it to be able to play games well.

Mission Impossible: Revenge of the SONY

[roman_mir]

games.slashdot.org annoying-ugly color alert, annoying-ugly color alert.
This SONY WILL selfdestruct in 5 seconds.

Nintendo will steal Sony's userbase

[stonefry]

I am 29 years old and am admittedly a Nintendo fanboy. Almost all of my friends are not Nintendo fanboys at all, quite the opposite actually. Six of them went to E3. All of those six will be buying a Wii on launch day. None of them will be buying a PS3 anywhere even remotely close to launch day, and maybe never at $500-$600. What does that tell us about how the PS3 will stack up? Good luck Sony. Nice knowing you. We had some good times.

Sony can't count to 6

[fujiman]

Correction: Stop calling Sony's controller 6 degrees of freedom, that's just ignorant. Adding "just like Nintendo" is ignorance with malice.

Let's break it down:

1 axis each for yaw,pitch, and roll.

1 axis each for translation in 3 dimensions: x,y,z

AFAIK, Sony's controller doesn't detect translation, making it (at best) a 3-axis tilt-controller. If the significance of that difference hasn't hit you yet, you really need to play a Wii game or two (like I did at E3). I'd take that extra 3 degrees of freedom over Blu-Ray any day.

Re:Sony can't count to 6

[sbaker]

I am VERY clear about what a 6-DoF controller is - at the SONY E3 presentation, they explained that they'd changed the controller and that the new one "detects all six degrees of freedom". Now, they may have lied - or been imprecise or incorrect - but that is EXACTLY what they said.

Now - it's almost certain to be a detector of relative motion (like a mouse) rather than an absolute motion detector (like a digitizing tablet or the Wii controller) - and that might well make it less suitable than the Wii's controller for some kinds of games - but I'm pretty sure that with good programming, you could still interpret the necessary gestures to play tennis.

Of course SONY may have been mistaken in their use of that technical term - in which case, I apologise for taking them at their word - but I'm quite clear about what 6-DoF means and about what the SONY presentation said.

Re:One of the things I find interesting about this

[tfoss]

Wow, I wonder what the video games were like in 1890.

History tells me differently

[moa hunter]

As many previous posts have already stated, SONY has been trying to introduce their own standards for years now - betamax, minidisk, the sony-only stereo systems, etc., etc. What makes the PS3 and Blu-Ray any different to those cases?

SONY has done dumb stuff and lost many battles in the past and they are still an incredibly strong company... I see no reason why they are ready to "self-destruct". In fact if SONY do manage to pull this off they will be in an incredibly strong position... if they don't then I'm sure they will just keep trucking on like they always have.

Also in New Zealand the Playstation consoles have massive support - i know people who work at games stores and all of them have been recommending customers not to buy 360's and to wait for the PS3 to come out - I'm sure their managers wouldn't be too happy about it but they do it anyway. As for Nintendo - gameboys still have a bit of support but the N64 wasn't that popular, and the gamecube was removed from most stores soon after its release because noone was buying it.

I do love Nintendo games and am glad to see Nintendo fighting hard, but my money is still on the PS3.

Re:One of the things I find interesting about this

[Odin's Raven]

Wow, I wonder what the video games were like in 1890.

According to Nintendo's Company History, the games produced in 1889 apparently looked a whole lot like Japanese playing cards.

(I freely admit that I initially scoffed at the '116+ years' history for exactly the same reason that you did.)

Lets not get ahead of our selves here

[AC-x]

I seem to remember a lot of doom and gloom around the PS2's launch, how it was overpriced, underpowered, and would be a failure.

PS3 may get a rough start at that price, but given a few months, a couple of price drops, some killer games and more blu-ray movies, I'd be surprised if it wasn't still top seller, or at least a close 2nd.

this is how it will go down..

[luther349]

will sony die will no there to big even if the ps3 is a majer flop. i think everyone is correct its just sonys attempt to get people to buy another movie format they dont whant. the price is to high as well couse all the competers will be cheap. the 360 learned this fast with there 60$ games they are quickly falling back to 50$ and below. witch is dumb for sony to try the same thing that didnt work for microsoft. the ps3 is setup for a quick death but sony itsself will not fall what will happon is when the ps3 systems dont move off store shelvs sony will probly relese a cheaper ps3 without blueray and uses standerd dvd mostly couse the ps3 games are aruldy said to be on standerd dvd and only movies will use blueray seems they have aruldy set themselfs up for a failer of the expensiv ps3. m$ was smart abought the new formats and will relese itas a addon to the 360 if they whant hd-dvd

Re:this is how it will go down..

[DanHibiki]

Spell check first, then we'll talk.

Re:Remember Betamax?.. A little perspective

[asliarun]

I agree with the parent and grandparent's views as well. Sony always positioned itself as a "cutting-edge" premium brand, and priced itself accordingly. The difference between then and now was that in those days, Sony's products were THAT good that people were willing to pay even double for the brand.

We still have a Sony Trinitron television that is is over 10 years old but still runs as good as new. Those trinitron picture tubes were truly revolutionary and the quality of electronics that went in was excellent as well, which is why they still run like new and give the best of LCDs a run for their money. Looking at a product like that, i would gladly pay through my nose for it. The modern day equivalent would be, i guess, to drop $500 for a pair B&W (or equivalent) speakers, i guess.

The problem is, these companies end up suffering from hubris more often than not, and things get dramatically worse if say, they miss a couple of key innovations. Now, you have a company that's a little behind the technology curve, and is still pricing itself way more than the market. Perhaps, the company will ride on the strength of its brand for a few years but not for too long.

Intel is, i feel, in a very similar situation. Like Sony, it too considers itself not as a market competitor but as a market creator or as a visionary. Both these companies actually walked the talk for quite some time, but slid real bad when they missed a couple of key market signals. The only difference is that Intel has a sufficiently strong senior management to learn from its mistakes, or at least from the really horrible ones. It's really trying to turn itself around after it has got shafted in the backside with its NetBurst offerings. In fact, i predict that it will come back stronger than ever after it successfully ramps on Woodcrest, Conroe, and Merom. I'm not so sure if Sony ever will recover OTOH, but then i only say that with the stereotype of Japanese bureaucracy in mind.

Lastly, i see this growing trend of flaming or dissing companies like Sony or Intel. Remember, these might be giants poised to fall, but its only a very very lucky and nimble David that manages to beat a very dumb and complacent Goliath. Another thing is that these Goliaths have also been responsible for creating markets and pioneering technology. Give them some respect for that, at the very least. It's easy to leech off market share AFTER a market is created, but the pioneer at least deserves the credit for having the cojones to take the first step.

Root Kit?

[Uukrul]

SONY and RootKit-gate. 'nuff said.

Rootkit it's about Sony Music. It's like say that Sony Playstation isn't going to sell because you don't like Spiderman 3.

I Like Sony HDR-HC1, the first afordable Hight Definition Camcorder.
I love my Sony PSP.
I have also a Sony TFT 19".
And the Sony VAIO line of Notebooks are great.

And PS3 is gonig to have Linux preinstalled, and ready to be amateur-developed.

So I don't understand why you are never going to buy, recommend, anything SONY again. SONY sells pretty god products.

BETA, SuperBETA, Mini-Disc, Net-MD, UMD... PS3?

[pestilence669]

Everyone is familiar with the 1980's failure that was BETA vs. VHS. Few people are familiar with Sony's bad ideas for the CDROM & DVD standards... that were pushed out by larger companies. Some people remember the Mini-Disc that never caught on in the U.S. PSP owners are feeling the death of UMD as a movie format. And now there's Blu-Ray... the PS3 game media.

I guess what I'm trying to say, is that Sony rarely wins format wars. In fact, they consistently fail at them. The PS3 is a pawn in a greater war... control of the global distribution movie market. As a gamer, I could care less and resent the added costs.

While Sony plotted to take over the home video market... Nintendo kept their focus on gameplay. If developers catch on, it's over for traditional sit and stare consoles. Revolution (Wii) truely is... revolutionary. It's not just bigger & faster.

Sony put too many eggs in one basket, IMHO, and it may bite them if they can't react quickly enough. I'm still hoping they succeed. They graphic quality looks incredible... but they need Wii's controller.

What about their online capabilities?

[Darkn3ss]

If with Sony, you get their internet content FREE FOR LIFE, then that makes it a better deal, but only is equivalent after someone has had a 360 for what, 4 years? I don't know anyone who uses a system 4 years after it comes out regularly enough to pay money for either it's games or it's online features, so I don't see that as an option either really, so I don't know what that would do for me either. Going for the fanboy market isn't something they should be doing...

I hope they take BEST BUY with them

[Anonymous Coward]

When Sony blows itself to hell. It'd be nice to get some shrapnel value into M$ and Walmart, as well, but beggers can't be choosers.

Dear Sony:

Please take as many other sons of bitches with you when you go. The more the better. Don't wuss out at the last second.

Thank you.

Signed,
An End-User

Re:Tunnel Vision strikes again and again

[Ravatar]

No kidding, maybe he shoulda spent some time away from the Nintendo booth? There was TONS of buzz surrounding MGS4, Final Fantasy, and Gran Turismo among others.

How has Nintendo "rebounded"?

[Wildfire Darkstar]

Seriously? They've built up a fair degree of buzz surrounding their new system, to be sure, but that system isn't, technically speaking, out yet. I'd say that, at this point, Nintendo resembles Apple a lot more than either Sony or Microsoft: they've got dominance over the handheld gadget market (GBA/DS vs. iPod), they seldom lead (in sales, at least) in the console/desktop arena, but have managed to carve out a modest but sustainable niche in that arena nonetheless. Quite honestly, I'm not convinced that this is going to change considerably with the advent of the Wii. That's not to say that it couldn't, of course, but declaring a victor in the next gen console wars before two-thirds of the party is even at the table strikes me as a bit premature, really.

I'm pretty sick of all of this

[Mongoose]

As a game developer, everytime I see the next 'let's bash PS3 before we see it' story I can't help but wonder how many of the people writing these stories will turn a 180 once they see the console firsthand. One thing I don't understand is all the bitching about the two systems. The only difference is HDMI. You can use usb to add the memstick, ethernet to hook up to a wireless access point, and you can upgrade the 2.5 sata drive off the shelf at this point. Comparing the PS Network with Live before it's even launched is brilliant as well. You can't even store media on an xbox -- you have to handle the core case. Also once you get HDDVD with the 360 you'll be paying a lot more for the 360 and still not have HDMI, which is likely to be a year or more off I might add. Now consider what's missing. How many people even know what HDMI is, and on top of that have a device that can use it? The 360 doesn't even have HDMI, so how do you think that HDDVD will work? I hope the media can get this message at some point. You might want to stop and think instead of guessing in fourms and horriblely uninformed blogs. I have to tell you it's funny to me how little people know and then the meme is carried by others.

On top of this PS3 may have an 'arcade' service that allows you to develop on Linux with OpenGL, and other easy to use APIs. That was mentioned during a Japanese interview during E3, but I'm considering it as a rumor for now.

If you think the PS3 is the doom of Sony it will only be due to the fact that they sold the console too cheaply for having too many features.

I'm not even leaking super secret information here -- this is all in public anouncements no one seems to read.

Re:I'm pretty sick of all of this

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

A preliminary translation was that they were going to allow homebrew via the removable media.

Re:I'm pretty sick of all of this

[coop247]

Everyone seems all enraged about the price, and I'm not going to rant about BRay and Cell and what they may cost blah blah blah.

Simple Economics
Its called price discrimination. They will only have 2-4 millions units available in the first couple of months. They are well aware that there are 2-4 mil people (me included) who are willing to pay a premium to be the first to have one. Once production lines ramp up and costs go down, the price will come down and all you morons ranting about the price will be in line to buy one when they drop $100 a year from now.

Why should Sony sell you (cheapo without HDTV) a console today for 400 when I will gladly buy that same console for 600. This is why Sony is one of the oldest and most successful consumer electronics companies.

Yay Sony!

[jma05]

Yay Sony. Since people can't afford PS3 in droves, looks like you don't need to lose $900000000.

Not coming to HD-DVD: Spider-Man3

[marvelite]

Sony will release Spider-Man 3 in summer 2007 which will gross at least $500 millions worldwide. By Christmas a few millions will buy the Blu-Ray version.

I was at E3

[Anonymous Coward]

Nintendo closed off their space for wii allowing a dozen people or so in at a time, and you couldn't get in without waiting for an hour. Everyone else just let you queue up per game and play. They even had the gall to put HD tvs of 'operators' up in the lines to ask you what's your favorite mario game?! It was just for hardcore Nintendo fanboys. I and serveral people I thought were 'hardcore' skipped it completely due to that fact.

As far as I'm concerned Nintendo was just trying to cause hype, and I guess it worked. Only people that were only there to see wii or in the press saw it. When you're trying to look at what's going on in the industry and only go for a few days you don't have time for bullshit like that. It reminded me of people that wait hours in line for some movie that's not that great in the end.

Re:Tunnel Vision strikes again and again

[EmperorKagato]

3 games?

Performance numbers appear to be accurate

[raftpeople]

Based on reports from developers working with cell (PS3 and Mercury systems products) the processor appears to deliver the raw performance that has been described by IBM.

Debate this issue

[Mongoose]

I don't care about the 360 vs PS3 ranting here, but I'm going to challenge the slack-jawed parroting without thought here. You should really be buying a console for the game as well as the media, but I digress.

Why should Microsoft make an add-on HDDVD add on at all? Xbox 360 doesn't have HDMI and you can't play HDDVD games on 360, so why not get a stand alone player?

You want a crippled, subsitized media player branded as a Mircosoft product? There is nothing wrong with that, but at least admit it. A lot of people buy clothing because of brand name on it.

I can get a PS3 with HDMI and games that actually use the higher denisity media for the same prices as an 'upgraded' 360 a year or more after PS3 launch. The last time I heard a timetable announcement for the HDDVD addon was over a year off anyway.

Explain that one to me.

Re:Debate this issue

[DeejayKnight]

Xbox 360 doesn't have HDMI and you can't play HDDVD games on 360, so why not get a stand alone player?

You want a crippled, subsitized media player branded as a Mircosoft product? There is nothing wrong with that, but at least admit it. A lot of people buy clothing because of brand name on it.

Actually, the Xbox 360 has a specialized connector that can be whatever connection Microsoft wants to allow it to be. Chances are they'll be releasing an HDMI adapter when the HD-DVD drive is released.

I can get a PS3 with HDMI and games that actually use the higher denisity media for the same prices as an 'upgraded' 360 a year or more after PS3 launch. The last time I heard a timetable announcement for the HDDVD addon was over a year off anyway.

In that aspect, the most game creators will be using of the Blu-Ray for awhile is for the HD cutscene content. To make the kinds of assets (models, textures) used to fill ANY kind of DVD medium be it Blu-Ray, HD-DVD, or even plain jane DVD is a serious undertaking. I personally feel that only the largest of developers will be able to fill a single layer of a Blu-Ray disc, and THAT would be after multiple years of work - i.e. a Final Fantasy game.

The HD-DVD drive will be available this holiday season, a mere six months away [MS' E3 Report: Check out 12:21].

Personally, as someone without an HDTV neither console's video capability does anything special for me. Until I get an HDTV, it would be a waste for me to invest in such things when bills need to get paid ^_^. Having said that, I like the idea that with Microsoft's support choice for HD, if the drive dies I don't have to send in my whole system, and the drive is bound to be very cheap in comparison to a dedicated player (which really only costs $500 anyways). On top of that, if HDDVD doesn't take off as expected, they can simply make a BR drive. If the BR drive in the PS3 dies, game over until you send it in to Sony.

All in all, I want a gaming console - which I have. When Sony announced the price, i'd rather wait until the low model comes down to $400. If I wanted to pay near a grand for a computer - as Sony freely admits the PS3 is - i'd rather just get a MacBook :).

SOFTWARE not HARDWARE

[SP33doh]

a lot of what I'm seeing is missing something. (PS3 is doomed wtf?) it's the SOFTWARE that matters. the games that come out on the console ultimately detirmine its successfulness. and I haven't seen any developers decide to stop making games for PS3 because sony's being "bearish" sony's "golden formula" of having a wide variety and excruciatingly massive list of games works. though I'm not defending sony. sony's full of crap. however, the games for PS3 AREN'T full of crap. and the software is what matters.

Re:SOFTWARE not HARDWARE

[Z80a]

lemme see then... a space ship game... a FPS shooter with dumb IA and.... a downgraded car game and WEEE MGS 4,in 2k8 and of course a LOT of X360 ported and downgraded games

Re:SOFTWARE not HARDWARE

[SP33doh]

when has a console EVER had a good batch of launch titles? that's right. NEVER.

Re:SOFTWARE not HARDWARE

[SP33doh]

actually, after thinking about it a little... with zelda on wii at release, wii might be the first console to ever have a must-own title at launch. though it's also for gamecube.
also, the number of GOOD announced PS3 titles already far surpasses 360s. and it's not coming out for ~half a year. and 360's been out for ~half a year. that's comedy gold.

and one last thing.
say something bad about insomniac again and I'll die of laughter.

Common misconception - it's 200 GFLOPS

[Namarrgon]

16 terraflops is what the cheap $499 PS3 can do

No-one (outside the Sony troll "community") claims "16 terraflops", but it's not uncommon to see claims that the Cell can pump out a solid 2 teraflops. However, this is inaccurate too, and is based (surprise) on Sony marketing.

Each SPE in the Cell can manage a more humble 25.6 gigaflops, when running at 3.2 GHz, and that only if it's doing nothing but matrix multiplication. Similar for the PPE, giving a total of 204.8 GFLOPS for the PS3's 7-SPE Cell. Reality, of course, usually involves fetches, stores, branches and pipeline stalls, bringing the useful total down to a rather smaller figure, and that's assuming you actually have 8 separate things to do all at once.

The difference between the Cell's performance and Sony's claimed 2-TFLOPS figure for the PS3 is of course mostly made up by the RSX GPU. Since it has 48 pixel pipes each bristling with shader ALUs, texture samplers, blend units, depth comparators etc, it's total theoretical performance is around 1.8 teraflops. Not that it's particularly useful for anything except rendering 3D graphics, and likewise never gets fully utilised in reality, rarely even faintly close.

Fact is, any single PC with a modern high-end GPU has a total compute capacity similar to the PS3, but if that was actually useable, universities everywhere would be tossing out their expensive supercomputing clusters in favour of a couple of quad-SLI machines.

Re:Common misconception - it's 200 GFLOPS

[OnanTheBarbarian]

Amusingly, I was just reading an article about a university sticking 6 PCI and 1 AGP graphics cards into a PC to do exactly what you're talking about - at least, in a very specialized domain. But the point is well taken - GPGPU (general purpose GPU) is a pretty specialized domain.

I suspect that you're spot on - that the Cell's potential will be extraordinarily difficult to take advantage of in real life. All of these claims about TFLOPS are marketing hooey. On the other hand, one should thank them for making life interesting for computer scientists.

Re:Common misconception - it's 200 GFLOPS

[leek]

Correct, and that's only for Single Precision. For double precision, it drops to 14.6 GFLOP/s. See this paper.

Who is jammmma ??

[Bluesuperman]

Who is jammmma ?? Sony has made X amount of money so far, how about you ? Do you have an income to complete with them ? I think before we lash out at them we should see where it goes. Also ... the Xbox360 is still cheaper but from my understanding the PS3 will still allow online play with out addition cost. Where M$ is charging you what ? $12 a month I heard ( I do not use xbox live ) - at $10 a month you are pay M$ $120 a year, so over two years you have paid an extra $240. Add that on to the Xbox360 price ... Oh ... new headline, M$ is doommmed, self distructing. Who will ever commit to that ... How is this "news for nerd" ????? Michael

Re:Tunnel Vision strikes again and again

[Khaed]

Says... who?

Anyone outside Sony?

But the real question is:

[acidrain69]

Will PS3 survive to 2008?

Most people are not going to buy it. Game devs realize this. Games are probably going to be $60 this time around. I'm curious wether game devs will be able to make the kind of profits they do now on the PS2 with the PS3.

If I were a game dev, and I saw Sony price the PS3 out of a LOT of people's hands, I would start my whole team on XBox 360 or Wii.

I thought MS was ballsy for hitting the $400 mark. I am not willing to pay that much for a game system. I can wait till the price lowers, and by then I will know what games I want from the system, which will also have dropped in price.

I still have tons of games I haven't finished. A stack from PS2, and I still want to complete Silent Hill 1, Final Fantasy Tactics, and eventually start Chrono Cross on PS1. Oh, and I never played the first Metal Gear Solid. And I still didn't beat FF9. Shit I have a lot of catching up to do. The market is just too saturated. I can buy excellent games for $10-20, that don't look as good as the new stuff, but they are still fun. Plus I like fixing old broken consoles.

I kinda dropped Nintendo for a while. They had some EXCELLENT games for the gamecube, but not that many. I have like 3-4 games I REALLY enjoy. I think they will make a comeback. I just hope they don't get too gimicky. I'm sketchy on the whole remote-control-wand thing. I've messed with VR stuff. Will the control be tight enough to do more than dorky games or things that are fun when you are drunk?

Blu-Ray is not a good reason to buy a PS3

[Namarrgon]

That whole argument is predicated on a number of things that simply aren't true for most people.

First off, you'd probably have to have an HDTV, or be planning to get one very soon. In the US, that's a small percentage, but in most other countries, it's miniscule.

Second, you have to actually want a Blu-Ray player. A lot of people are wisely staying away from all that until it's all settled down, or someone releases a universal player. Could take a year or two.

Third, you have to want that Blu-Ray player *straight away*. Right now, that's no-one, because there's no movies, no content. When PS3 is released, there will be a few movies, but how many will be ones *you* really want so much that you'll buy into the VHS/BetaMax war this early?

Third-party Blu-Ray players will rapidly drop in price, partly to make them more appealing to consumers faced with $500 HD-DVD players (and $500 PS3s), partly because the studios will quickly realise that they're not going to get the usual numbers of early adopters this time round (see above). And when those players get cheaper (they're a lot cheaper to make than a PS3), your PS3 won't seem like quite such a good deal anymore.

I can understand rabid, well-off gamers buying a PS3 just so they can play <exclusive_game>, but it's not smart to rationalise paying so much extra up front for an uncertain feature you're hardly going to use in the short term. Better to wait until that same feature will be available in a cheaper, more convenient & higher-quality standalone player (or BD-ROM drive for your PC), at which time there might be a decent range of actual content to use with it, and some assurance that your money isn't disappearing into a BetaMax-hole.

All it takes is one kid on the block to get one!

[Anonymous Coward]

the PS3 is so obviously superior, especially w/wifi, that all it will take is for one kid on the block to get one and the others will fall into line...

what's weird

[sentientbrendan]

is that they are in the same position microsoft was in with the xbox. They are late to the market, with a console that is reputed to be only moderately better than the competition if that.

I think sony is in a bad spot, and will probably lose out on the first generation games. However, before you say the ps3 is dead, consider that they have only the disadvantages that the xbox had (high price, late to market) and several advantages doesn't.

For one, they have backwards compatibility with both ps2 and ps1 games to offer. Remember that the ps2 was successful initially primarily because of ps1 compatibility.

Second, even after all of the money microsoft has spent buying out studios to get xbox exclusives, the ps3 will still probably have more exclusives in terms of japanese video games. They will probably win the japanese market by default, and frankly that's a pretty big chunk of the market to get by default. Also, last time I checked there were plenty of americans who played japanese rpgs.

Third, what's almost certainly boosting their price the most is the blu-ray disk. This is also probably the most likely component to become dirt cheap in a couple of years if the format is successful. Now, that's a big IF, but if it does happen, they might very well be a position to undercut the xbox360 in terms of price like they did in the last generation, or at least bring them into the same price range.

Also, the cell processor was originally hyped as something that sony was going to put in all of their electronics. Does anyone know if they are coming out with anything else with the same processor like they promised? If they do, the increased volume would also potentially help them reduce long run prices.

The Death of Sony?

[dr.banes]

The only problem I forsee is will parents run out and buy a PS3 for their young ones or their teenagers who don't have jobs? The majority of Sony's user base is partially in thanks to casual gamers and young gamers. The hardcore gamer (sans fanboys) usually has all 3 systems. At $500-$600 a pop, that becomes a problem for casual and young gamers and even a cash strapped hardcore gamer, this is where the other options (360 and Wii) become more viable. I really don't care about Blu-Ray as all it does is add more $$ to an already expensive piece of software/hardware and I seriously doubt that parents in particular are going to rush out and buy a new $1500-$3500 HDTV so they can watch a movie they already have on DVD in a new expensive format and still can't tell the difference in quality--much less to let their kids play a game on it. If this is what Sony is banking on then more power to them. I'm wondering if Blu-Ray games will start to cost in the $75-$90 range and movies $40-$50.Xbox 360 games already retail at $60 and are on regular dual layer dvds. Rootkits,DRM,UMD,Minidisc,NetMD,Betamax,Bean,and that other failed attempt of a digital music player. These are all testimonials that "Blu-Ray" and hence the PS3 may fail. I don't care how MGS4,rubber ducks,leaves,etc previews you can show, its sad to see a company who revitalized the industry become so arrogant and untrustworthy to consumers.

Re:One of the things I find interesting about this

[rlp]

According to Nintendo's Company History, the games produced in 1889 apparently looked a whole lot like Japanese playing cards

Yu-Gi-Oh is a whole lot older than I thought!

Game Machine

[burntsigil]

I'll admit. I was HIGHLY pissed when I heard that even the CHEAP PS3 would cost $500. But hell, if the games coming out for it are good, fuck it, I'll buy it. From my understanding, it'll play PSX and PS2 games as well as my DVDs. I'll agree with what's been said here that it's a game machine and should be judged as such. But I can't help but think of other things. If I'm getting three game systems and a high quality DVD player all in one box, $500 doesn't seem too bad. I'll still probably wait for the price to drop though. Not to mention wait to see what kinds of games are being released.

Re:All it takes is one kid on the block to get one

[9Nails]

Show me a kid with HD TV in his bedroom and a PS3 connected to it, and I'll show you a bedroom that I plan to break in to a few minutes after this kid leaves for school!

Xbox 360 price: $287.00

[Animats]

That's what a core system just went for on eBay. So that's the real price, the amount a willing buyer will pay a willing seller. There's been slow price erosion on eBay, from the premium above retail at launch to slightly below it now. The "pent-up demand" is gone. When Microsoft relaunches the thing, they'll probably have to cut the price. (Or, more likely, throw in unsold game and accessory inventory.)

The PS3 is going to face some real price resistance. For most kids, it's only slightly better than the PS2, and for the parents, it's more than twice the price.

If you think the support is bad...

[Anonymous Coward]

try being the one behind the phone. Some of the policies were down-right deceitful. I will never even consider the purchase of anything from them after providing just basic outsourced support for them.

My favorite line was the "virtual call center in Ft. Myers" when ever a customer asked where we were. Followed by a mention of a foot of snow outside during winter. :)

It's about time....

[gamekeeper]

I used to know people who worked out at Sony PlayStation, and man let me tell ya.. It is a company driven on ego, with complete reckless disregard. He would say it was like going back to High School, but making Less than decent wages for the equivalent job.. "Your working for SONY, that should be enough.." was the phrase that was used alot. People would put in long hours and not get much in return. They would ramble on about other stuff about SONY, but the bottom line is. It was not a nice pladce to work because of the "Ignorantly, Above everyone else" Attitude.

At E3 to impress media?

[Anonymous Coward]

I know it's a little off topic, sorry, but Exhibitors are mostly at E3 to impress wholesalers. The motto is "Where business gets done" not "where media gets to see cool stuff." The media is a lot easier to reach than the wholesale buyers. Media wants to be contacted, the wholesalers try hard to not be reached by 'salesmen.' Just my 30.2396Lire

Re:One of the things I find interesting about this

[Anonymous Coward]

nonstandard controller and lack of HD out.

Don't get me wrong, the controller is fucking awesome. But just try and play Tekken on it. Nintendo makes their controller for their games and says fuck the rest of em. Wii will lack certain ports JUST because of the controller, JUST because it's soo different.

Unless the alternate controller becomes popular. (The controller they have for the emulated games)

attitude isn't that important to a consumer

[Chandler55]

Sony's arrogance isn't going to shift billions of dollars around because consumers didn't like a company's attitude. If the playstation 3 works, it works.

Re:attitude isn't that important to a consumer

[drinkypoo]

And if it costs too much, and/or gives customers too little, then it might work, but no one will buy it. Or at least, not enough people will buy it.

Don't drown yourself in the kool-aid

[jchenx]

Gee, drink a lot of Sony kool-aid I see ... where do I begin ...

Why in the world would they not use a next-gen tech for optical media. I've got a PS2 game that uses two discs (Shadow heart) and considering that ps3 games will be displayed in hd along with any fmv (FF XIII will probably be heavy on that) games will start using more disc space then fits in a DVD. Although on the pricier side this will clearly be an impact on games like ff.

Bzzzt! Larger media does not mean better games. It typically means, yes, more CG and FMV. Now, is that really a good thing? I'm actually a big fan of J-RPGs and I'm saying this. (And yes I will be getting a PS3, but good god not for a few years)

Besides, with many next-gen titles, you can really use the in-game engine to render cut-scenes, and that's arguably better with FMV. You already see this now with many PS2 and Xbox titles, and not many people are clamoring for more pre-rendered FMV.

And finally, with many games being multi-platform, companies will always develop to the lowest common denominator. That's why the original Xbox HD never got utilized that much by 3rd parties, and why Blu-ray capacity isn't going to be that big a deal.

Also by manufacturing 4 million ps2's in the first 3-4 months they will be well into the mass manufacture of their new tech. This will drive prices down for blu-ray players ...

You've got to be kidding me. A few MONTHS is NOT "well into the mass manufacture". Try a few YEARS. Yes, Blu-ray costs will go down dramatically after the first year, but the PS3 is essentially being released in its first year. That's why the PS3 is so dang expensive. I'm hoping (along with many others) for a massive price drop in 2007, but unfortunately for Sony, all of their competitors already have a huge head start in terms of pricing, so they'll always lag a few hundred dollars behind.

Next, while many people here like to argue that hd is expensive and it doesn't have a high adoption rate thats true for now. But HD equipment is still quite cheap... I bought a decent quality 36 inch JVC tube tv back in the day for $1000ish that i still use. I can buy a HD LCDTV of around 32inches for that price, thats definately what i plan on going with in the future for obvious reasons.

Okay, I can't argue with you too much here, since I've argued the same thing. (I own an HDTV as well) People seem to think that HD = Plasma = Thousands of dollars. It's not. There are decent HD sets for under a grand. Yeah, they're CRTs and not the flashy new tech (LCD, Plasma, DLP), but they're definately more affordable.

The fact is that TVs, like many other pieces of consumer electronics, are always breaking down or being replaced. Who in their right mind today would buy a regular SD set without at least THINKING about going HD? I'm sure the salespeople are telling them about the "imminent" switchover to HD (scare tactics). At the very least, all the shiny HDTVs are basically screaming "BUY ME" to consumers.

As for price... who would have thought that people would by $400 dollar portable music players of poor sound quality (i've got an ipod--even the headphones aren't of high quality) ten years ago. If Sony's marketting can make the ps3 seem like a value then it will sell.

Yeah, Apple did an amazing job with the iPod. But the mass market consumer is a different audience than the gamer/techno-geek that Sony is vying for. Arguably it is Nintendo that might do a better job here than Sony.

Re:Don't drown yourself in the kool-aid

[Nazmun]

I never said the games will necessarily be better, it's just that I can definately see many ps3 games of similar style hitting the space limit. I really don't like comparing cinematic stuff to Nintendo most nintendo games. It's really apples/oranges...

Katamari will certainly not take anywhere near the full storage of a dvd but there are numerous titles that use pre-rendered video. Even the ps3 will have graphical limits (especially noticeable on hdtv units)...

Next i'm going to disagree with:

  You've got to be kidding me. A few MONTHS is NOT "well into the mass manufacture". Try a few YEARS. Yes, Blu-ray costs will go down dramatically after the first year, but the PS3 is essentially being released in its first year. That's why the PS3 is so dang expensive. I'm hoping (along with many others) for a massive price drop in 2007, but unfortunately for Sony, all of their competitors already have a huge head start in terms of pricing, so they'll always lag a few hundred dollars behind.

By mass manufacture I meant the number of units. Of course they'll be better off a few years later. But when introducing new technologies economies of scale play a huge factor. Your using all new equipment you'll get your ROI back a lot faster on the hundreds of millions -> billions you spend on getting the factories up and running if you produce and ship 4 million units versus less then a half a million (standalone hd drives will NOT sell anywhere close to that many units--and they'll be sold by different vendors).

Also Sony's PS3 will not always be a few hundred behind. Their tech has the most to lose from a price point. There is no reason for blu-ray drives to cost more to manufacture then dvd-drives a year ago, in 2-3 years. The cost of the cell chip will decrease greatly after moving from 90nm process to probably 45nm process near the end of it's life cycle.

Knowing sony they will also attempt to integrate other chip functions into one new smaller chip as they've done with past consoles. At most they will be $10-$20 dollars behind for dvd backwards compatibility and $35-$50 dollars behind for the hard drive near the nd of it's life cycle so at around this time they will be close to $149-$199.

Re:Don't drown yourself in the kool-aid

[jchenx]

By mass manufacture I meant the number of units. Of course they'll be better off a few years later. But when introducing new technologies economies of scale play a huge factor. Your using all new equipment you'll get your ROI back a lot faster on the hundreds of millions -> billions you spend on getting the factories up and running if you produce and ship 4 million units versus less then a half a million (standalone hd drives will NOT sell anywhere close to that many units--and they'll be sold by different vendors).

Also Sony's PS3 will not always be a few hundred behind. Their tech has the most to lose from a price point. There is no reason for blu-ray drives to cost more to manufacture then dvd-drives a year ago, in 2-3 years. The cost of the cell chip will decrease greatly after moving from 90nm process to probably 45nm process near the end of it's life cycle.

Knowing sony they will also attempt to integrate other chip functions into one new smaller chip as they've done with past consoles. At most they will be $10-$20 dollars behind for dvd backwards compatibility and $35-$50 dollars behind for the hard drive near the nd of it's life cycle so at around this time they will be close to $149-$199.

You are still extremely optimistic if you think that a mere few months and 4 million units suddenly means "mass manufacture", in the sense that costs are now really low. If that were the case, then that would also affect the 360, which has been on the market for several months and have had several millions shipped.

Yes, they've now made that huge leap from product concept and prototype, to an actual product, there's no doubt about it. But when people talk about economies of scale and costs coming down after manufacturing mass amounts of product, that's again over the period of years and more than a mere 4 million units. It's a combination of both time and number of units.

I think we both agree that the costs will come down. But it seems to me that you think we're going to have $300 premium-PS3s next year, and I honestly don't see that happening.

Re:Don't drown yourself in the kool-aid

[Nazmun]

I'm expecting $399 ps3's in the best case scenario next christmas (don't believe me? i'll find a post in my history where say i think sony needs to do this or become irrelevant). I don't think they'll magically drop to half price in a year. I just said that near the end of the product cycle the ps3 will probably cost up to $70 and $99 more then the ps2 and psone. End of active product cycle for past sony consoles have been 5-7 years (some blockbusters for the psone and ps2 have and will come out at around the same time as their next-gen counterparts).

Hell, i even said that blu-ray drives won't be near (thats NEAR btw so you don't forget this time not AT) their bottomed out price for another 2-3 years (by bottomed out i mean within (60% of the cost, usually prices will have gone down anywhere from 100-200% of the original cost). The reason I think blu-ray will go down in cost so much is that there is nothing inherently expensive about the drive itself. With chips it's die size that matters, with displays, once again size matters due to cost of materials and success of flawless (or close to) pixel perfect displays made.

There is nothing inherently expensive about a 405nm laser and the other components in the blu-ray with current manufacturing processes. It just needs to mature and factories need to be developed for it as none existed for it before.

In any case I'm not really sure why you think i'm implying a $299 price point after just one year. It seems your just desparately trying to argue with me and incorrectly interpretting what i've said.

Oh and that bit about "mass manufacture," there was a time that reaching 1 million units or even half that resulted in companies boasting "mass" manufacture. No one implies that this means a mature and near end of life cycle manufacture like i said earlier.

What I'm reading

[mwvdlee]

What I'm reading in the article is this: "They wouldn't let us play with their console, so now we think they suck".
The whole article has nothing to do with Sony, but rather is about the writers feeling left out of the fun.

Re:One of the things I find interesting about this

[Anonymous Coward]

Did anyone else notice the transition from facts (1889 - late 1980's) to complete marking bullshit (1990's onward)?

Re:Xbox 360 price: $287.00

[spindizzy]

Everyone keeps mentioning kids as if they're the determinant in this. The console market has matured now to the point where the average age of gamers is now 24, which I'm guessing from the posts is somewhat above the Slashdot average. The market of parents buying for their children is only vital for one player, Nintendo who will probably have a lock on this niche, but it is only a niche.

Frankly as it's under $1000 it's in impulse buy territory for me.
$600 is not a lot of money, I spent $300 on a pair of shoes this weekend because I thought they looked good.

Re:Remember Betamax?.. A little perspective

[mlylecarlin]

I give them credit for innovation in the fields of personal video and music systems, but as for video games, they basically didn't do anything of great note. The playstations dominated (yes, I use that in the past tense) due to their large library of third party titles and the fact that nintendo had a few Gil Ameliesque years. Credit for innovation in video games goes mostly to nintendo and sega.

It's the Games stupid!

[jchenx]

Well, from a marketing and format-domination perspective, wouldn't a larger user base for Sony PS3s mean that more people would use Blu-Ray and its DRM, thus giving them a lock on the next format?

So, yes, I think at some point they will realize that they want to win the war, not be stuck on past glories. And to succeed at selling movie titles, which is probably more revenue than games, it helps to sell more PS3s.

Retail of $500 is not going to make them bleed to death - $600 is a sweet price for them, but if they sell way more volume at $500 and then people end up buying Blu-Ray movies, they end up making more in the long run.

So your whole post right there, is the problem. And that's probably the exact thinking of more than a few Sony executives, particularly those in Sony Pictures or those responsible for heavily pushing Blu-ray.

I'm definately not alone in saying, "Screw Blu-ray! Just give me a GAME console!" Do I own an HDTV? Heck ya. Am I one of the few that notice a difference between 480p DVDs and 720p HD TV shows? I'll even admit yes to that. But do I really want my game console playing HD movies, *especially* if it's going to cost me an extra few hundred dollars? Most definately NOT.

I am not going to invest in any HD movie format until it's well established which format wins, and I'm not alone (how many times did Beta/VHS get mentioned today?). Even if I did get a PS3 (and I will be getting one, but not till the price drops heavily), I wouldn't get any Blu-ray movies until I know which format to get. Additionally, I would probably just invest in a Blu-ray or HD-DVD standalone player. I know my PS2 was barely adequate as a DVD-player, so I don't have high hopes for the PS3, nor should I. Anyway, by the time the format is decided, standalone players will be a lot more affordable AND probably have a lot more features than the PS3 anyway (better audio capabilities, holds multiple discs, etc.).

Gamers said much the same thing when MS touted all of the media capabilities of the 360. It can stream music, videos, even watch TV. Woo, whatever. Now I've played around with those options on my 360, and sure it's neat. But at the end of the day, I use my 360 to play games. It'll be the same with the PS3. I just wish I didn't have to pay >$200 more dollars because some Sony execs had the same ideas you did.

Re:It's the Games stupid!

[soupforare]

I'm definately not alone in saying, "Screw Blu-ray! Just give me a GAME console!"

We're nerds, we very much do not count.
If you talk to average joe gamer, HD elitism has been going on since last gen EVEN IF THEY DON'T OWN AN HDTV.

Re:It's the Games stupid!

[jchenx]

If you talk to average joe gamer, HD elitism has been going on since last gen EVEN IF THEY DON'T OWN AN HDTV.

Sure, let's go down the street and talk to Average Joe and see what he thinks. :P

In some way, I agree that HD elitism has been going on for a while. Heck, you don't even have to be a gamer to realize that HD > SD. If you're a sports fan, you KNOW how awesome HD sports looks (watching football on my father-in-law's 60" DLP pretty much sold me on getting one myself). And everytime you go into a Best Buy or Circuit City, you're inundated with HDTV screens that show how blatantly obvious HDTV is better than SDTV. I definately agree that the "hot new item" to get is an HDTV, if you don't have one yet.

But HD movies? HD-DVD or Blu-ray versus regular DVD? Sorry bub. Not for another few years. Heck, I wonder how many people would even notice the difference between the resolutions (480p vs 1080p). I know I do, but my wife doesn't really notice. Nor do many of our friends. Maybe a few years from now ...

Re:It's the Games stupid!

[WillAffleckUW]

Good points. I agree, even though you seem to think I don't in your reply. It is the games, which is why I'm buying a Wii myself.

But, I was saying that Sony, unless they're really really dense, should be dropping the retail price to around $500 for non-crippled PS3. And, yes, they need more fun games - that I'm not so sure about - they may have shot themselves in the foot with their dev kit pricing.

Re:It's the Games stupid!

[jchenx]

But, I was saying that Sony, unless they're really really dense, should be dropping the retail price to around $500 for non-crippled PS3. And, yes, they need more fun games - that I'm not so sure about - they may have shot themselves in the foot with their dev kit pricing.

I'm doubtful they can drop the retail price this year. As many people have speculated, they KNOW they've got enough Sony-loyalists that they should easily sell out. So Sony's greed will get the better of them, and they'll use the high price to limit their loss on the console somewhat. When the console becomes more readily available, probably in mid 2007, then I would expect a price drop. They would have to, in order to keep in line with what MS is doing by then.

But then again, this is Sony, and they can change their minds on a dime. The shareholders may not be happy if Sony drops the price of the PS3, but millions of gamers would.

Re:It's the Games stupid!

[soupforare]

My friendly neighborhood liquor vendors were going nuts over CoD2 on their 360. Raving about how much better it was than PC and how the HD is amazing. Which was interesting because they hadn't ever played it on an HDTV, nor had they ever played the PC version. I know. I asked.

Me, I've been enjoying HD games and content for years; on my computer.

I will buy a PS3 anyway

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't care what any journalist, expert, or business analyzer says. I will buy a PS3. So please shut up lamers and wait till some months after PS3 is released. Then we will see whether or not Sony is still alive.

PS2 was a crappy DVD player

[jchenx]

Gosh, I wish I could mod you up!

I'll add my 2 cents as well. The PS2, even though DVD had been fairly established by then, was a crappy DVD player. Using the controller was pretty lame (it was wired, and it was hard to remember what each button was supposed to do). Maybe for its time it was a decent entry-level DVD player, but everyone now realizes that there are many standalone DVD players far superior to the PS2 one.

Now the PS3 as a Blu-ray player? I'd be even MORE skeptical. And even if it was fairly decent, you know that better players are going to come out in the not-too-distant future. Do I really want to be locked down to the Blu-ray format now? Personally, I'd rather wait until it's readily apparent which format has won, THEN I'll start investing in a player and HD movies. But that'll be years from now.

So I'm absolutely not considering the PS3 as a Blu-ray player. It's a game console, first and foremost, with an unfortunate mandatory and expensive add-on attached to it.

Re:Xbox 360 price: $287.00

[jchenx]

Frankly as it's under $1000 it's in impulse buy territory for me.
$600 is not a lot of money, I spent $300 on a pair of shoes this weekend because I thought they looked good.

Okay, I make a decent wage (well over the average income), and I'm married to a woman who's into names like Louis Vuitton and Burberry, but even I can't plunk down $300 for a frickin pair of shoes.

Now if it was for a video card or something, then yeah maybe. :)

ramblings

[IntlHarvester]

In the mid-90s I worked at a place that was ditching their PS/2s and their "IBM Mentality". So I got to see all sorts of great MCA and other IBM stuff piled around. There was a mysterious 8595 (I think) sitting in the corner doing something critical and only running because there was a paperclip jammed into the powerswitch.

Instead of a real network out in the cubefarm, they had used Apple's LocalTalk standard and IBM's 3270 "twinax" stuff. $500 MCA LocalTalk cards! Plus the closets were full of MCA sound/video/younameit cards, every sort of PS/2 snapin or addon you could imagine, and tons of copies of OS/2 1.3 EE still in shirnkwrap. Too bad I didn't have the collector bug then, it would be fun to have some of this junk now.

Anyway, it was interesting seeing what was left of a "True Blue" shop that had bought everything IBM sold. With customers like this place, you could see why IBM thought they could get away with MCA. And when even the True Blue shops had given up on IBM and started buying Compaq Servers and Windows NT, it was obvious why IBM was in trouble.

*And by "field recordings", I actually mean...

[nugneant]

*And by "field recordings", I actually mean "recordings of live concerts" - fellow privacy fanatics, have no fear, I'm not recording your private conversations.

And by the way - Steve B. - the guy who codes for Microsoft, who used to hack into bank accounts on his mom's Commodore C-64, who drives a Segway in his private time? You should change the combination on your safe. The one where you store the alt.binaries.multimedia.erotica.transsexual "backups"? Just reminding you, since it seems that "Edwina", your Personal Assistant (single/white/39yo/TV) failed to do so, even after you reminded hir, not once, but twice, to remind you. I suppose that the AIDS results are still weighing heavily on hir mind.

But seriously... I'll just let the phone companies take care of the monitoring. In the meantime, I've got... "backups"... to be making. :-D

Doubtful.

[nugneant]

Next wave of MP3 player/recorders may make this redundant, but it was a decent solution at the time and that wasn't that long ago.

As someone active in the live music scene, let me say that absolutely nobody will accept any form of mpeg recording. Even at 320kbps encoding rates, you get occasional sound artifacts in an MP3 that are much more noticible in the context of a live recording (with constant crowd chatter and non-studio sound dynamics) than they are when listening to the latest David Bowie wunderalbum on an iPod. If you ever want to watch a tye-dyed, dope-smoking, certified-peacenik Phish fan shit himself in anger, trade him an uncirculated recording of his for an uncirculated recording of yours in mpeg format (I highly reccomend this for slow news days on /. :-D).

MD is lossy as well, but it typically sounds better than MP3 at equal bitrates, and on the "nearly uncompressed" level, is pretty much indistinguishable from DAT - another supposedly "dead" format that the tapers have kept alive way, way past its sell-by date.

What is really looking to usurp MD is the wave of sub-$2000 laptops with large, large hard drives. Even these have a bulk factor which MD is without, but my guess is that if and when a company offers a $200 unit the size of a PDA that records to FLAC, with a built in 20GB flash drive (good for roughly 40 hours of FLAC-encoded recording, factoring for a need for a buffer for uncompressed audio) and typical expandability (ie, SD cards or whatever's hot at the moment and of course line-in and USB out), MD and DAT alike will both finally bite the dust.

Why Sony is NOT ready to self destruct:

[bmcage]

I read slashdot, I post. After reading many posts on this subject on slashdot, I come to the conclusion that PS3 will be the best deal.
In case you're wondering, I have a HD tv, 43 inches, surround system, ... . There are millions like that, who don't even are gamers, that would buy the PS3 the first year it's out just to brag to have clearly the most expensive and capable game machine around.
Personally I'll wait off course for the price to drop after this first rush. But I'd be a fool to buy a Wii or Xbox 360 in the meantime. First see the actual machines at work, test them and see the games. The GAMES man, it's all about the GAMES. Never buy on emotion.

And guess what, you can buy a PS2 for Christmas to give as a present to your niece.

"Enables the consumer"? Translation please

[Viol8]

Sorry , I'm not up on the latest marketing BS so I'm wondering
if you could explain what the phrase means? Enabling them to
do what , listen to mp3s and copy tracks to and fro? Err , isn't
that what other mp3 players do too or have I missed something?

Re:"Enables the consumer"? Translation please

[harrkev]

You need to raise the net over your head to catch the sarcasm as it passes by.

The point of my post is that Sony has entirely missed the boat in the world of portable music (mp3 players). This was the same sort of field that made Sony what it was a back in the 70's and 80's with the Walkman.

The point is that Sony held out on making MP3 players for quite a while. They came out with ATRAC players. An ATRAC file is kind of like a MP3, but burdened down with DRM. Never mind the fact that anybody with an MP3 collection would have to convert everytyhing. Also, the only way to get these ATRAC files into a Sony player is with software that, from what I understand, could kindly be described as "crap." Of course I have no first-hand experience with this, as I am wise enough to avoid Sony like the plague.

Another thing about customer hostility is that Sony once tried to shut-down the web site of a guy for post Aibo hacks. Ripped from Wikipedia:

Many AIBO owners enjoy teaching their pets new behaviors by reprogramming them (in Sony's special 'R-CODE' language). However, in October of 2001, Sony sent a cease-and-desist notice to the webmaster of aibopet.com/aibohack.com, demanding that he stop distributing code that was retrieved by bypassing the copy prevention mechanisms of the robot.

I still don't get it. "Copy Prevention Mechanisms" in a robot? I have heard of CD-R and DVD-R, but never Robot-R. You can't copy an Aibo. The Aibo was hardware, and that was what Sony was selling. Anything on the software side that enables customers can only help hardware sales as others realize how cool the product is. So Sony proved once again that they care nothing about the customers, and managed to shoot themselves squarely in the foot yet again.

It is rather a shame too. Sony used to represent quality. But now I actively go out of my way to avoid them. I will not buy any Sony music for fear of screwing up my computer. I will be getting a new digital camera soon, and Sony is not even in the running. And when I need to get a new laptop, no Vaios. Perhaps the only Sony products that I will have difficulty avoiding is their movies. I still have to watch the next "Spiderman" after all.

More on price bitching

[mgabrys_sf]

Great blog and info graphic on the history of console prices since the 70s onward put through the US Department of Labor's inflation calculator.

http://curmudgeongamer.com/2006/05/history-of-cons ole-prices-or-500-aint.html

I liked the link to the calculator. Back then 30 bucks for Pac Man for the 2600 when it came out seemed steep at the time. According to the USDL it was equal to 72.74 today.

To date - with inflation taken into account the top 5 consoles for price in today's dollars were

Neo Geo at 993.65,(pretty obvious - but the carts were even more insane at 150.00 - 230.00 in 2006 dollars ea.)

The 3DO at 967.89 (but hey - it played CDmovies too. Wave of the future BABY!)

The Intellivision at 825.62 (ever wondered why George Plimpton was hawking it - same demographic),

The Atari VCS / 2600 at 659.41 (a particularly hard sell for 1977 what with all the money going to buy Coke and bad leisurewear - and that was just the Atari employees),

And lastly the Atari 5200 priced to move in 2006 dollars at 683.52 which was comparable for your run of the mill repackaged Atari 400 computer (again - hard to sell with all the Wall Street traders spending their entertainment dollars on Coke and 800 dollar CD players)

Re:Remember Betamax?.. A little perspective

[Viol8]

"Sony Trinitron television that is is over 10 years old but still runs as good as new"

Yup , we've got one of those too except it dates from 1985! Still works like a
dream. The only thing thats ever gone wrong is the mechanical on/off switch
which needed replacing. However , as with other companies Sony these days
manufactures in cheap-n-cheerful china and quality has gone through the floor.
I bought a sony DVD player last year. 9 months later it went wrong. Friends
of mine have had similar issues with new sony kit too.

I'm sure you get this a lot, but it's true:

[Anonymous Coward]

Fag.

remember Trinitron

[^Z]

Another good piece of Sony engineering that evaded a death by hands of Sony's marketing is Trinitron CRTs. This was (and still is) the choice of DTP / photo-editing pros.

BTW, I feel really sorry for Sony's engineers: they often develop brilliant things that die undeservingly because of inadequate marketing, licensing, etc.

Re:remember Trinitron

[Trepalium]

On the other hand, look at what happened when the trinitron patents finally expired. All of a sudden, you can get cheap CRTs with aperture grill masks for dirt cheap.

LOL!

[Anonymous Coward]

Yu-Gi-Oh is a whole lot older than I thought!
:)

MOD PARENT UP

[Anonymous Coward]

Honestly, I am sick and tired of this mindless hype repeating. The Wiimote looks like it's going to tank (it's NOT POINTING AT THE SCREEN, YOU DOLTS - THINK GIANT FLOATING JITTERY MOUSE OKAY THANKS), and the games are Not That Hot. And rather than -1 Flamebait any further, I'm just going to say - the parent is spot on and deserves a louder voice.

Re:Remember Betamax?.. A little perspective

[Ngwenya]

Sony Trinitron television that is is over 10 years old but still runs as good as new

Yup , we've got one of those too except it dates from 1985! Still works like a dream.

Agree with above. My Trinitron is at least 1985 (friend gave it to me for nothing. It was fully of clag and barely working). Got it cleaned out, and it's been firing on all cylinders ever since.

In fact, it's almost annoyingly perfect! I want a widescreen (and probably 100Hz HD-ready TV) but I can't justify getting one until the original Sony curls up its toes and dies on me. With the way it's going, it'll be another 20 years before this happens

--Ng

So what ?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's still made by Sony !

Huh?

[Mr. Underbridge]

Wait...did I miss a wonderful Sony product offering, or did 5 idiot moderators miss the sarcasm bit like usual?

Beta- revisited

[pathos49]

While I have the money to buy a PS3, I have decided not to. There is little value that Sony adds except Blu-Ray that reminds me an aweful lot of BetaMax of yore. IT IS TOO EXPENSIVE FOR MASS ADOPTION. I will wait til they release the PS3 and within a month, I bet MS will drop the price of the XBox, and I will buy one. In the meantime, Wii, is in the cards. Cool looking games

Re:Tunnel Vision strikes again and again

[Ravatar]

More than an hundred, just three that I bothered to mention because they interest me (and apparently others) more than most.

Not enitrely fair.

[goldcd]

Sharp made a lot of minidisc players - and prices definitely did fall. The problem was they refused to advance the format in ways that made sense. My the time they introduced something that allowed you to drag music from your PC to minidisc - MP3 had taken over and flash memory was cheap.
Memory sticks were also not 'all bad' I like being able to pull my duo out of my phone or camera, stick it in my PSP and it to recognize and display the pictures. The bad thing is that there is no reason this couldn't be done with an SD card - and they keep on changing the format. Memory stick was fine. Duo was smaller. Micro of whatever it is seems to serve no real purpose other than to make use all buy new cards again.

lawlz pwn3d

[Anonymous Coward]

mossession::store failed DB function failed with error number 1062 Duplicate entry '1-' for key 2 SQL=INSERT INTO mos_session ( `session_id`,`time`,`username`,`gid`,`guest` ) VALUES ( '18df0899165897ff4181f77c6d8d7a53','1147788008','' ,'0','1' )

Re:Tunnel Vision strikes again and again

[EmperorKagato]

And that buzz can be found where?

am I one of the minority?

[TeraHybrid]

that wants to buy a PS3
after reading all the posts in /.

They should stick to AV equipment

[panic911]

They really should stick to making stereos, dvd players and TVs, if not close up shop completely. It looks like their PS3 is going to be a failure (at least in comparison to the PS2) and none of their other departments are doing anything right either. Between their ps3, their root kits, and their crappy Sony Station service (for mmorpgs) I think they could definitely be on the verge of self destruction, which I wouldnt mind seeing. They brought it upon themselves and pissed off a lot of customers in the process, including myself.

Re:Remember Betamax?.. A little perspective

[apoc06]

some did bring gaming into the living room again. nintendo had relegated gaming to the kids rooms and to the dens. whereas nintendo always wanted to stay true to their toy image [they were a card company turned toy maker, remember?] sony embraced all demographics, and proved that there is a market for "mature" titles too, or titles that nintendo only marginally supported. even with the new wii line, very few [only one that i know of] of those titles could be considered "mature".

nintendo had become arrogant and complacent. sony has humbled nintendo, and look at what they are doing now. they are focused again; or at least they seem to be. i personally dont want to see sony fail in the video games arena, but if they have to take a backseat this generation in order for them to get back on track; so be it.

if nothing else, we owe sony for helping nintendo wake up and get off their laurels. nintendo was in a stupor for very many years. sony did something that even sega was incapable of at the time. sony may not have created many new aspects of the gaming market, but they definitely solidified the things they embraced.

they didnt create the idea of rumble or force-feedback, but they successfully integrated it into their controller and gave it a sense of scale, not just a bunch of random buzzes

they were not the first to use a cd based game system, but they were the first to utilize that extra capacity for 3d based games and video.

the saturn may have beaten them to memory cards [i didnt have a saturn, so i dont remember if they were internal or external], but the playstation did away with battery backed up save games that were subject to failing, or to the memory limits of the console save memory [read: sega cd]. for the first time game saves were able to travel with you to a friends house to finish your game.

they didnt create the first analog controller, but they were the first to realize that two analog sticks helps the pesky 3d camera issues that plague many games still to this day.

they didnt create backwards compatibility, but they were the first to implement it in a way that has now become almost an industry standard.

the list goes on...

the value of the playstation line has always been superior to its competitors. at release, the ps1 did 3d well better than the saturn, and captured the third party markets that nintendo arrogantly pushed away. all for $100 cheaper than the saturn.

at release the ps2 was more expensive than the dreamcast, but they threw in a dvd player as well. it wasnt the greatest dvd player, but for most it was the only dvd player they had and therefore people didnt mind its shortcomings. inspite of the fact that the gamecube and xbox had better graphical capabilities overall, and they came out a year later... there are still games on the ps2 that match some of the xbox and gamecube offerings. [not many, but there are some]. even now at the end of the ps2 lifecycle there are many AAA offerings still being produced, whereas the xbox and gamecube have almost been abandoned completely.

the psp for what it is, is an excellent value. its easily worth several hundred more than it retails for. not that i want to pay more, but it definitely seems like sony is obviously selling it at a huge loss. they keep adding more functionality to the device [unfortunately, at the expense of homebrew...] but it is the first console model to actively add more abilities as time progresses. [xbox live could possibly be the pioneer here, but live really didnt do much to change the "core" functionality of the unit itself]

actually its 10 words

[Z80a]

without our newest tv,your 360 will look like shit

What the...?

[AzraelKans]

What the heck is wrong with this guy? first everyone was all buffed up against any article considering Nintendo was a goner due to the Gamecube since is ridiculous for a large company to dissapear over some failed product.
Now you everybody is saying "YAY! thats so true!" to any pseudo article claiming SONY is going to die? do you realize SONY is a company that spans through Electronics, Movies, Web, TV? and that is big enough to buy Nintendo and (in a good week) Microsoft? Sony is HUGE (think IBM/Intel meets Warner Brothers, WbTV kind of large), you think is going away due to a non-yet released claim to be failed product? grow up kids!

Also please take off the fanboy hat for a second, the Wii controller is great heres a few questions for you about the Wii CONSOLE and the PS3.

Does the Wii console can use actual Next generation titles (ut2007, oblivion, Quake wars) NO.
Does it have huge franchises from Japan (Final Fantasy, Metal Gear solid, Gran turismo, Tekken, Devil may cry) NO.
Huge M rated American Franchises (GTA, HALO) No.
HD, HD-DVD, Blu ray Support? NO.
MMORPGs, MMOFPS ? No.
DOes Nintendo even care about winning the console war? NO. (they make a profit either way)

Have you realized the only argument for the PS3 "demise" is that "its really expensive"?

Will the HD and blu ray thing take off is US? Who cares? the PS3 can read regular DVD's and play on regular tvs (and PC monitors)

Does the cheaper "smaller HDD unwired controller edition" be doomed? Probably NOT, if its any indication the xbox 360 core did sold well, and even if sony does not have "upgrades" third party manufacturers could take the niche. (not to mention they have til november to change that)

But didnt sony copied the Wii controller!?(those bastards!) er.. is not illegal to copy a controller scheme (if it were only one company could do FPS's or fighting games... or consoles) it only is if they copy the parented method. And if the "unwired sensor" is the next "big thing", they pretty much HAVE TO try.

Has the Japanese, American and european Market bought the Sony consoles at the Overinflated launch prices in the Past? YES
(Ps2 $300-$400, PSX $700, PSP $400-$500 all Sold out in release week)

But didnt Nintendo Wii already "WON" at the E3? Hmm.. no a lot of people wanted to try the Wii controller for the first time, however not everyone left pleased, theres a lot of negative comments on both the console, the library and the controller. (specially the controller and the library)

But hasnt Nintendo already won the console wars? Hmm you are counting your counting chicken before they hatch, The PS3 and Wii are not even out yet, in order for Nintendo to "win" they would have to have more sales than both Xbox 360 and PS3. If people buy a Wii and a 360 or a PS3 then they are not "beating" they are "sharing" (and thats what will most probably happen) Nintendo Fanboys aside I havent heard anyone saying they would buy the Wii alone.

Re:Remember Betamax?.. A little perspective

[just_forget_it]

This is exactly what makes the video game market so great...competition.

I don't think, however, that Nintendo is solely going after the kids market, though. Sure, they have kiddie-looking games, but the trend for most is that they're social. Games like Mario Party or Super Smash Bros. are meant for you and three of your friends to have fun with. Mature titles like GTA or Resident Evil completely envelope you into its environment and by definition is quite anti-social. Nintendo is banking on the fact that people are tired of games that make them feel afraid, angry, and anxious and are ready to have fun with their friends again.

Deja Vu!

[Anonymous Coward]

"...not make childish remarks when chances were against them."

Sounds like the majority of people who comment on Slashdot!

Social gaming vs. online gaming?

[tepples]

Sure, they have kiddie-looking games, but the trend for most is that they're social. Games like Mario Party or Super Smash Bros. are meant for you and three of your friends to have fun with.

Except a lot of Slashdot users who have replied to my comments seem not to see a need for social gaming. They claim that putting each player in a separate house, providing a separate view of the game world for each player, and limiting socialization to instant messaging or voice chat, is superior.

Re:Remember Betamax?.. A little perspective

[apoc06]

social games are nice and fun, but what about when you want to sit and immerse yourself in a game? the zelda and metroid franchises play well to this, but many of us who grew up in the nintendo generation have matured and moved on to other things that have grown up and matured as well.

example: i enjoyed star wars when i was a kid. i still enjoy star wars. star wars will hold a place in my life forever probably due to my childhood attachment. ive grown up. to that end, in order for me to enjoy star wars on the same magnitude as i did when i was a child, i need for star wars to grow up as well. im not saying that it needs to have blood and guts everywhere; thats not growning up or a sign of maturity. im just saying that the plot elements and the writing needs to have shown a sense of development from when it was first released. some things do NOT adjust to that philosophy well; those things do NOT need sequels. part of my enjoyment of star wars when i was younger was that it played to that. star wars didnt require an encylopedia or a working knowledge of physics and philosophy to enjoy. if you had those things you still enjoyed it though.

contra was fun when i first played it, but if contra were released today it would be universally panned. as times and technology grow, so must our games.

no disrespect to the immortal mario, but with the exception of the ability to interact via the wii-mote, super mario galaxies looks like super mario sunshine and just like mario64; each with a "slight" graphics update. in fact, if you greatly dumbed down the graphics engine of super mario galaxies you could play it on a nintendo ds just like mario 64.

Neo-Geo vs. Mega Drive

[tepples]

Neo-Geo (which was by far the most powerful console in its day)

Neo-Geo AES was not significantly more powerful than a Sega Genesis (called Mega Drive outside North America). They used the same pair of CPUs (a 32-bit MC68000 on a 16-bit data bus, and an 8-bit Z80) and had almost exactly the same amount of RAM. The major differences were:

• Neo-Geo's MC68000 was clocked a bit faster.
• Neo-Geo allowed more colors per scanline, but by the time of the later Sonic games, Sega artists managed to figure out how to circumvent the Genesis hardware's limitations.
• Neo-Geo had one additional background layer (3 vs. 2).
• Neo-Geo had more sprites per scene (380 vs. 80), but it took a lot of CPU power to make them all move at once.
• Neo-Geo had what amounts to both a Super NES sampled sound chip and a Sega Genesis FM/PSG sound chip.
• The major difference was that game cartridges for Neo-Geo were an order of magnitude bigger in capacity and were four times more expensive. If you think $60 games are bad now, think of what $200 games must have been like before inflation.

So Neo-Geo vs. Genesis/Super NES is closer to to Xbox vs. PS2 than to PS2 vs. PS1.

To give you an idea of how far along things have come: The Neo-Geo is comparable in power to the Game Boy Advance.

Re:Neo-Geo vs. Mega Drive

[drinkypoo]

Well, as an old school custom hardware sprite-pusher, you don't expect too much, but supporting four times the number of sprites (and much larger sprites, too) was a huge step in the right direction. The higher cart capacity doesn't hurt either, it means never having to compress your dialogue to fit it into the game like people did have to do specifically on the Genesis.

Rare on Xbox Live Arcade?

[tepples]

Is there something in particular that is going to make buying a $400 gaming rig and a $500+ HDVD/BR rig a better deal than a single $600 device that does both?

Exclusive titles perhaps? Imagine Xbox 360 owners being able to buy all the Rare games going back to Battletoads on Xbox Virtual Co^W^W Live Arcade.

And with gaming being more accepted, a dual device may be a compelling sale.

Until one family member wants to play a game while the other wants to watch a chick flick. To drive two displays and two sets of speakers, you need two consoles.

Aloha Astroturfa!

[Anonymous Coward]

Okay, you and your Nintendo buying fanboy friends - all both of them - have me convinced. I will engage herd mentality and buy a Wii too, so that we all might reap the bounties of whatever the Wii has besides a dumb name and a gimmick controller.

But you may want to buy a PSX. For that "stack of PSX discs" which totally validated your point about the magnitude of your decision (I, in fact, found myself asking, "if this guy can buy a Wii, well, why can't I as well?!").

Because, you know, a PSX can be had for $30. Since the Wii is cheaper than a PS3 and is therefore teh shitz, I suppose a $30 console is teh mega-shitzzz. And there's even lots of gimmick controllers for it - you don't know what immersion is until you've played a first person shooter with the DDR pad!

Checkmate, bitch.

Wow

[superguido7]

Yeesh, obviously the article has managed to inspire conversation, but I didn't really find much content to talk about. Seems like mostly a bile-filled rant to me.

Some mods really need help.

[Anonymous Coward]

Apparently you're a -1 Troll in the eyes of some idiot without frontal lobes.

I... don't know what to say anymore. Do people even know what words mean anymore?

Re:Xbox 360 price: $287.00

[blitzsieg]

"Frankly as it's under $1000 it's in impulse buy territory for me." For you are the key words in that sentence. I don't make much money (7.45/hr in a small city, comparable to about $9-$10 in a big city), and frankly, a $40 game or something is an impulse buy to me. For me to spend $1000 on something, that would require at least 4 paychecks (8 weeks) because I have other bills that I have to take care of. I know I am not in the upper income bracket, but 8 weeks of cutting costs and other financial measures hardly constitutes an impulse buy.

Re:Xbox 360 price: $287.00

[spindizzy]

I totally agree that for you it's not an option to spend that sort of money on what is a luxury item. I respectfully submit that therefore you are not the target market that Sony is seeking with the initial release.
No company can try and go after the whole of the market, it's not a winning strategy. All Sony hae to do is get enough market penetration to ensure the developers keep the support at the highest level and keep the product in the public eye. As the unit becomes cheaper to manufacture over time they can drop the price to a point where you will be able to afford one.
The illogical anger being shown towards Sony because they've priced the PS3 outside of some peoples reach is amusing, they don't have an obligation to provide them to all for whatever they can afford.

Hooray 4 Ebay

[superguido7]

All I have to say is, there were tons on Xbox 360's sold on Ebay for as much or more money than the high-end PS3's, so the contention that people won't pay that much for a console is pretty ridiculous. They HAVE and they WILL. Whether or not it is a price point that will net them a great deal of success is another question altogether.