This also, however, illustrates the difference between the "Linspire" mindset and the traditional "Geek" mindset. At Linspire we believe the forum software should get easier, not the user smarter. But, I appreciate the charm that is Slashdot. =)
You're absolutely right...producing jobs and products that solve problems is, IMHO, more important that beautiful code for code's sake. Here are some more interesting facts to this story...
1. My 21-year old son recently went to work for this company! He applied there because he, like his dad was at that age, also into computers and a hacker (only a much better one =). He applied there because it is close to where he is going to college (the company is just down the street from his school, the same college I attended). He didn't say anything about knowing me when he applied. It was only AFTER he was hired they put two and two together. Again, how cool is that? I started a business 20 some odd years ago (my son was just a new born at the time) that now employs him all these years later, as well as hundreds of others over all these years...including you for a time. =)
2. Correct, I didn't write TSK (The Store Keeper). I wrote VSS Plus (Video Shop Software Plus), which according to my Son is STILL in use today, even with some of that original code! However, guess who hacked TSK out? Tom Welch, Linspire's CTO! I can't wait to tell him. The engineers will have endless fun with this one. It's one thing for their "business" degreed CEO to be teased about his spaghetti code, but NOT our genius, coder extraordinaire CTO! Classic! (My code was perfect, of course. A real shame you didn't get a chance to admire it.;-)
3. The reasons the white spaces were removed in both VSS and TSK is that back in those dark ages, the compiler couldn't load up a source code file to compile that was bigger than so many K (I forget the exact size limitation). Back then, this was a huge problem, as we were constantly having to really skimp on features or you'd create too large of a source file and couldn't compile it to a binary. We actually all got very good at inventing all sorts of cleaver ways around this problem with variable passing and linking. Unless you were a coder with compiled basic 20 years ago, you'd have no appreciation for all of this. Today, the dev tools are light years better than back then.
Thanks for this blast from the past! Now, if you'll excuse me, I have a CTO to go tease. =)
Kevin
Yes, we spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on WINE in those early days. We got it to run Word and Excel (Office 2000) pretty well. When we started our work with Crossover (who we contracted with to help), they weren't doing much with WINE at the time. With Linspire's funding, however, they were able to move things along quite a bit, which then became Crossover Office. Linspire early on stopped funding WINE and started funding native Linux apps (Nvu, Mozilla, Lsongs, Lphoto, Reiser FS, etc.). We figured it made more sense to pour money into providing better solutions for Linux natively than helping Linux run expensive, proprietary software from Microsoft.
Kevin
Linspire open sources EVERY SINGLE SPECK of art, icons, wallpaper, etc. that we produce. We even sponsor sites that share that art (KDE-look, etc.). Shame you can't do the same. As for rebranding GPL code, 1) you obviously don't understand what Linspire does and does not do (the only "rebranding" we do is giving software friendly names that consumers will understand, for example we call "GAIM" the friendlier name, that consumers will understand of "Instant Messenger, Powered by GAIM."), and 2) even if we did (which we don't), that's sort of the idea of GPL, that code can be used by others. We WELCOME people using our code, art, icons, etc. I think it's a shame you don't do the same. Many people use our themes, icons, etc. and never give us credit. Do we cry about it? Hardly. We are flattered, pleased and applaud it.
Here are the MILLIONS of dollars Linspire has contributed in code to open source: http://linspire.com/opensource
And your contribution? Why not GPL YOUR work???
Kevin
I was only at MP3.com for 3 months, so my guess is this is someone who has in fact never met me. Guess we'll never know. (They don't call them Anonymous "Cowards" for nothing. =)
Kevin
LOL! Ah, a blast from my programming past (a very short-lived past!).
But...let's put this in perspective though...that code was written almost 25 years ago!!! There weren't even hard drives when I hacked that code. It was put together on the very original IBM PC with 64K of memory and floppy drives. So, yes, duh, of course it was written in Basic, about the only thing you could hack with on those original PC's. My degree is in Business, and the only formal training I ever had was DP 101 in college. I've never professed to be a coder. But, that code that I hacked was used by 25% of all video rental stores to check customers in and out in its day. I turned it into a very substantial business, which I later sold for a great deal, and that business is still around today, 20 plus years later! How many of you can say that? =)
Kevin Carmony
Nor have you ever met me. The only intereaction I had with you was when we used some of your art in a Linux tutorial, not knowing it wasn't GPL, and when you coplained, we promptly removed it.
You really should GPL your stuff. =)
Kevin
For the record...
I didn't set out to "set the record straight about Linspire myths." (That was just the fancy spin this reporter put on his story. =) I simply gave an address at LinuxWorld called "Desktop Linux Adoption by Mainstream Consumers." During my address I made mention to a few of the things that consumers DEMAND which Linspire provides, which then create problems for some in the Linux community. For example, we support DVD, MP3, Windows Media, Real Audio, QuickTime, Java, Flash, ATI drivers, nVidia drivers, etc. We do this because most consumers won't touch Linux without these things (heck, I wouldn't!) Most have iPods and other MP3 players and want their computer to work with them. They have DVD's and want their computer to play them. Linspire pleads guilty to supporting all of this out of the box, and for that, we're not always understood.
If I really wanted to dispel myths about Linspire, I'd have started right here on Slashdot (I read more misinformation here than anywhere about all sorts of topics, not just Linspire =).
Kevin Carmony
CEO & President, Linspire, Inc.
The very first sneak preview of Linspire didn't have ANY way to add users, but we never released that commercially. That first sneak preview didn't have a lot of things in it! Not sure it even printed. =)
What Linspire does is during the install it has you first set up your Admin Password (root) and THEN takes you to a screen where you can add users, right during the install's install Wizard.
FYI...
1. This is just an idea we're kicking around. Someone on the Ubuntu forums asked me if we'd ever do such a thing, and I responded with my post. Don't read too much into this gang, I just wanted to honestly ask the question that posed to me.
2. Mark and I have discussed this. We'd never do this if Mark wasn't OK with it, and Mark would not be OK with it if it goes against the values and mission of Ubuntu.
3. Even if we did this (and that's a big if =), it would NOT be in the Ubuntu distribution. A user would have to download the CNR client on their own if they wanted to try or use it.
4. We'd only do this if, in addition to Mark being OK with it, lots of Ubuntu users wanted it. So, if you don't like the idea, convince Ubuntu users of that fact, not me. I believe having more choices is better, but if they feel otherwise, no worries, we'd not bother offering them something they don't want. (It looks like about half would like the option.) No one would force anyone to use this, it would just be there IF they wanted to install it. It would not be "in" Ubuntu by default.
5. I have made many posts on the Ubuntu forum, so if you actually want to know WHAT I SAID about all this, you can visit there. Sadly, my experience with Slashdot posters is they rarely actually research anything before posting. I've spotted more FUD here over the years (about a wide range of topics) than any other "news" resource on the net.
Kevin Carmony
CEO, Linspire, Inc.
LindowsOS is not based on Xandros
on
Xandros version 2
·
· Score: 0, Offtopic
I just wanted to clear that up.
It's true that about two years ago, we contracted with both Xandros and Caldera to do some early OS work for us. The work (and code) from both of these companies has long since been abandoned and replaced with updated, modern code.
LindowsOS is, however, very much based on Debian. LindowsOS is designed to be an easy-to-install and use Debian, with particular detail to hardware support, CNR (click-n-run for installing software), laptop and power management support, 10 minute installation, audio tutorials, plug-n-play support, etc.
You can't edit in WYSIWYG mode with Quanta. That's the whole idea of Nvu, to make it EASY to edit a web page with NO HTML knowledge. Quanta is fine for HTML programmers, but my secretary wouldn't have a clue how to use it, but she can use Nvu.
Kevin
We have 60 employees. More than half are engineers, but we DO have business, marketing, sales, accounting, HR, etc. people working here as well...all dedicated to one thing...Bringing Desktop Linux to the masses. These non-technical employees enjoy using Linux on their computers, but they too would like to be able to create web pages WITHOUT having to become a full-time programmer.
Our intentions with Nvu are very simple:
- Create a very easy-to-use web authoring SYSTEM (not just an "HTML editor" but a SYSTEM for managing the site easily as well) for NON-technical people. For Linux to thrive on the desktop, it needs solid, easy-to-use products for USERS not just Engineers (web browsers, email clients, office suites, and yes...web authoring systems).
- Keep the product 100% open source. We used the MPL because we're based on Mozilla code. We are HAPPY to see anyone use the Nvu code in ANY way they like. There are absolutely no strings attached to our contribution to Nvu. We just want to see this "hole" in desktop Linux filled.
- We're thrilled to be paying Daniel Glazman (lead contributor for Composer) so that he can focus full energy on Nvu. Composer was in real danger of being orphaned and left behind with the current breaking up of the Mozilla suite, and all the main focus going to the web browser and email client. We didn't want that to happen!
- We are contributing SERIOUS money, servers, bandwidth, engineering resources, code, marketing, and so on to see this project through to not only the end, but on an on-going basis. Where would Mozilla be without AOL's past sponsorship (via both Netscape code and $$$)? Where would OpenOffice be without Sun's funds and sponsorship? Open source is great, but it's even better when it can be fueled with funds with no strings attached.
Nvu is just one of MANY open source projects we here at Lindows.com fund and support: http://lindows.com/opensource
We want to see DESKTOP Linux thrive. That's our soul goal.
Thanks,
Kevin Carmony
President, Lindows.com
We're also introducing some new pricing with 4.0, I think you'll like it.
We're breaking out the commercial products (StarOffice, Bitstream Fonts, Tux Deluxe, Hancom, Photogenics, etc.) from our Click-N-Run Membership and offering a CNR membership at only $49.95 instead of $99. This way, if someone is happy with OpenOffice, GIMP, etc., they can still get one-click access to over 1,700 programs in the Click-N-Run Warehouse, but don't have to pay $99. Users can still, of course, choose to "Click-N-Buy" the commercial products at a great price, for example, StarOffice is only $29 ($75 list).
Kevin
Thanks.
Because the actual LindowsOS operating system is mostly open sourced, we know it will be our service that will set us apart and where we can hopefully bring something meaningful to Linux users...NOT from restrictive licensing. We hope we can just add enough value to our customers Linux experience that they'll want to continue using what we offer. Yes, we are a business, and we hope to be a profitable one some day so we can stick around, but we don't think you need to be overly restrictive with licensing to find profitability. We believe providing good service will keep customers coming back.
Kevin
I'll assume this comment is an attempt at humor (all be it in bad taste), considering LindowsOS is 95% "Linux," created by thousands of developers from all over the world, from all races and nationalities. We also have thousands of Insiders who contribute to and help shape LindowsOS, again, from all over the world. And finally, we have an ethnically mixed group of 50 employees at Lindows.com, including African American, Asian, Hispanic, Icelandic, Canadian, British, etc.
This was the EULA our lawyers put together a year ago when Michael and I were buried trying to get LindowsOS off the ground. Now that we are up and running, Michael and I will go through this and review it. I think you've pointed out some good areas that probably don't really fit with what we're trying to do and could use some updating.
Slashdot Mirror
ROFL
Yes, excellent point.
This also, however, illustrates the difference between the "Linspire" mindset and the traditional "Geek" mindset. At Linspire we believe the forum software should get easier, not the user smarter. But, I appreciate the charm that is Slashdot. =)
Kevin (in HTML =)
I believe they still are. Say hi and introduce yourself to Justin Carmony as well if you drop by! Kevin
You're absolutely right...producing jobs and products that solve problems is, IMHO, more important that beautiful code for code's sake. Here are some more interesting facts to this story... 1. My 21-year old son recently went to work for this company! He applied there because he, like his dad was at that age, also into computers and a hacker (only a much better one =). He applied there because it is close to where he is going to college (the company is just down the street from his school, the same college I attended). He didn't say anything about knowing me when he applied. It was only AFTER he was hired they put two and two together. Again, how cool is that? I started a business 20 some odd years ago (my son was just a new born at the time) that now employs him all these years later, as well as hundreds of others over all these years...including you for a time. =) 2. Correct, I didn't write TSK (The Store Keeper). I wrote VSS Plus (Video Shop Software Plus), which according to my Son is STILL in use today, even with some of that original code! However, guess who hacked TSK out? Tom Welch, Linspire's CTO! I can't wait to tell him. The engineers will have endless fun with this one. It's one thing for their "business" degreed CEO to be teased about his spaghetti code, but NOT our genius, coder extraordinaire CTO! Classic! (My code was perfect, of course. A real shame you didn't get a chance to admire it. ;-)
3. The reasons the white spaces were removed in both VSS and TSK is that back in those dark ages, the compiler couldn't load up a source code file to compile that was bigger than so many K (I forget the exact size limitation). Back then, this was a huge problem, as we were constantly having to really skimp on features or you'd create too large of a source file and couldn't compile it to a binary. We actually all got very good at inventing all sorts of cleaver ways around this problem with variable passing and linking. Unless you were a coder with compiled basic 20 years ago, you'd have no appreciation for all of this. Today, the dev tools are light years better than back then.
Thanks for this blast from the past! Now, if you'll excuse me, I have a CTO to go tease. =)
Kevin
Yes, we spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on WINE in those early days. We got it to run Word and Excel (Office 2000) pretty well. When we started our work with Crossover (who we contracted with to help), they weren't doing much with WINE at the time. With Linspire's funding, however, they were able to move things along quite a bit, which then became Crossover Office. Linspire early on stopped funding WINE and started funding native Linux apps (Nvu, Mozilla, Lsongs, Lphoto, Reiser FS, etc.). We figured it made more sense to pour money into providing better solutions for Linux natively than helping Linux run expensive, proprietary software from Microsoft. Kevin
Linspire open sources EVERY SINGLE SPECK of art, icons, wallpaper, etc. that we produce. We even sponsor sites that share that art (KDE-look, etc.). Shame you can't do the same. As for rebranding GPL code, 1) you obviously don't understand what Linspire does and does not do (the only "rebranding" we do is giving software friendly names that consumers will understand, for example we call "GAIM" the friendlier name, that consumers will understand of "Instant Messenger, Powered by GAIM."), and 2) even if we did (which we don't), that's sort of the idea of GPL, that code can be used by others. We WELCOME people using our code, art, icons, etc. I think it's a shame you don't do the same. Many people use our themes, icons, etc. and never give us credit. Do we cry about it? Hardly. We are flattered, pleased and applaud it. Here are the MILLIONS of dollars Linspire has contributed in code to open source: http://linspire.com/opensource And your contribution? Why not GPL YOUR work??? Kevin
Well said on all counts! Thank you. Kevin
I was only at MP3.com for 3 months, so my guess is this is someone who has in fact never met me. Guess we'll never know. (They don't call them Anonymous "Cowards" for nothing. =) Kevin
LOL! Ah, a blast from my programming past (a very short-lived past!). But...let's put this in perspective though...that code was written almost 25 years ago!!! There weren't even hard drives when I hacked that code. It was put together on the very original IBM PC with 64K of memory and floppy drives. So, yes, duh, of course it was written in Basic, about the only thing you could hack with on those original PC's. My degree is in Business, and the only formal training I ever had was DP 101 in college. I've never professed to be a coder. But, that code that I hacked was used by 25% of all video rental stores to check customers in and out in its day. I turned it into a very substantial business, which I later sold for a great deal, and that business is still around today, 20 plus years later! How many of you can say that? =) Kevin Carmony
Nor have you ever met me. The only intereaction I had with you was when we used some of your art in a Linux tutorial, not knowing it wasn't GPL, and when you coplained, we promptly removed it. You really should GPL your stuff. =) Kevin
For the record... I didn't set out to "set the record straight about Linspire myths." (That was just the fancy spin this reporter put on his story. =) I simply gave an address at LinuxWorld called "Desktop Linux Adoption by Mainstream Consumers." During my address I made mention to a few of the things that consumers DEMAND which Linspire provides, which then create problems for some in the Linux community. For example, we support DVD, MP3, Windows Media, Real Audio, QuickTime, Java, Flash, ATI drivers, nVidia drivers, etc. We do this because most consumers won't touch Linux without these things (heck, I wouldn't!) Most have iPods and other MP3 players and want their computer to work with them. They have DVD's and want their computer to play them. Linspire pleads guilty to supporting all of this out of the box, and for that, we're not always understood. If I really wanted to dispel myths about Linspire, I'd have started right here on Slashdot (I read more misinformation here than anywhere about all sorts of topics, not just Linspire =). Kevin Carmony CEO & President, Linspire, Inc.
The very first sneak preview of Linspire didn't have ANY way to add users, but we never released that commercially. That first sneak preview didn't have a lot of things in it! Not sure it even printed. =)
What Linspire does is during the install it has you first set up your Admin Password (root) and THEN takes you to a screen where you can add users, right during the install's install Wizard.
Kevin Carmony
CEO & President, Linspire, Inc.
FYI... 1. This is just an idea we're kicking around. Someone on the Ubuntu forums asked me if we'd ever do such a thing, and I responded with my post. Don't read too much into this gang, I just wanted to honestly ask the question that posed to me. 2. Mark and I have discussed this. We'd never do this if Mark wasn't OK with it, and Mark would not be OK with it if it goes against the values and mission of Ubuntu. 3. Even if we did this (and that's a big if =), it would NOT be in the Ubuntu distribution. A user would have to download the CNR client on their own if they wanted to try or use it. 4. We'd only do this if, in addition to Mark being OK with it, lots of Ubuntu users wanted it. So, if you don't like the idea, convince Ubuntu users of that fact, not me. I believe having more choices is better, but if they feel otherwise, no worries, we'd not bother offering them something they don't want. (It looks like about half would like the option.) No one would force anyone to use this, it would just be there IF they wanted to install it. It would not be "in" Ubuntu by default. 5. I have made many posts on the Ubuntu forum, so if you actually want to know WHAT I SAID about all this, you can visit there. Sadly, my experience with Slashdot posters is they rarely actually research anything before posting. I've spotted more FUD here over the years (about a wide range of topics) than any other "news" resource on the net. Kevin Carmony CEO, Linspire, Inc.
I just wanted to clear that up.
It's true that about two years ago, we contracted with both Xandros and Caldera to do some early OS work for us. The work (and code) from both of these companies has long since been abandoned and replaced with updated, modern code.
LindowsOS is, however, very much based on Debian. LindowsOS is designed to be an easy-to-install and use Debian, with particular detail to hardware support, CNR (click-n-run for installing software), laptop and power management support, 10 minute installation, audio tutorials, plug-n-play support, etc.
Kevin Carmony
President, Lindows.com, Inc.
You might want to check out... http://lindows.com/opensource
You can't edit in WYSIWYG mode with Quanta. That's the whole idea of Nvu, to make it EASY to edit a web page with NO HTML knowledge. Quanta is fine for HTML programmers, but my secretary wouldn't have a clue how to use it, but she can use Nvu. Kevin
This is exactly what Nvu does. Kevin
We have 60 employees. More than half are engineers, but we DO have business, marketing, sales, accounting, HR, etc. people working here as well...all dedicated to one thing...Bringing Desktop Linux to the masses. These non-technical employees enjoy using Linux on their computers, but they too would like to be able to create web pages WITHOUT having to become a full-time programmer. Our intentions with Nvu are very simple: - Create a very easy-to-use web authoring SYSTEM (not just an "HTML editor" but a SYSTEM for managing the site easily as well) for NON-technical people. For Linux to thrive on the desktop, it needs solid, easy-to-use products for USERS not just Engineers (web browsers, email clients, office suites, and yes...web authoring systems). - Keep the product 100% open source. We used the MPL because we're based on Mozilla code. We are HAPPY to see anyone use the Nvu code in ANY way they like. There are absolutely no strings attached to our contribution to Nvu. We just want to see this "hole" in desktop Linux filled. - We're thrilled to be paying Daniel Glazman (lead contributor for Composer) so that he can focus full energy on Nvu. Composer was in real danger of being orphaned and left behind with the current breaking up of the Mozilla suite, and all the main focus going to the web browser and email client. We didn't want that to happen! - We are contributing SERIOUS money, servers, bandwidth, engineering resources, code, marketing, and so on to see this project through to not only the end, but on an on-going basis. Where would Mozilla be without AOL's past sponsorship (via both Netscape code and $$$)? Where would OpenOffice be without Sun's funds and sponsorship? Open source is great, but it's even better when it can be fueled with funds with no strings attached. Nvu is just one of MANY open source projects we here at Lindows.com fund and support: http://lindows.com/opensource We want to see DESKTOP Linux thrive. That's our soul goal. Thanks, Kevin Carmony President, Lindows.com
We're also introducing some new pricing with 4.0, I think you'll like it. We're breaking out the commercial products (StarOffice, Bitstream Fonts, Tux Deluxe, Hancom, Photogenics, etc.) from our Click-N-Run Membership and offering a CNR membership at only $49.95 instead of $99. This way, if someone is happy with OpenOffice, GIMP, etc., they can still get one-click access to over 1,700 programs in the Click-N-Run Warehouse, but don't have to pay $99. Users can still, of course, choose to "Click-N-Buy" the commercial products at a great price, for example, StarOffice is only $29 ($75 list). Kevin
Thanks. Because the actual LindowsOS operating system is mostly open sourced, we know it will be our service that will set us apart and where we can hopefully bring something meaningful to Linux users...NOT from restrictive licensing. We hope we can just add enough value to our customers Linux experience that they'll want to continue using what we offer. Yes, we are a business, and we hope to be a profitable one some day so we can stick around, but we don't think you need to be overly restrictive with licensing to find profitability. We believe providing good service will keep customers coming back. Kevin
I'll assume this comment is an attempt at humor (all be it in bad taste), considering LindowsOS is 95% "Linux," created by thousands of developers from all over the world, from all races and nationalities. We also have thousands of Insiders who contribute to and help shape LindowsOS, again, from all over the world. And finally, we have an ethnically mixed group of 50 employees at Lindows.com, including African American, Asian, Hispanic, Icelandic, Canadian, British, etc.
Kevin
Timothy,
This was the EULA our lawyers put together a year ago when Michael and I were buried trying to get LindowsOS off the ground. Now that we are up and running, Michael and I will go through this and review it. I think you've pointed out some good areas that probably don't really fit with what we're trying to do and could use some updating.
Thanks,
Kevin Carmony
President, Lindows.com