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Lindows Announces Nvu - Frontpage For Linux?
CmdrStone writes "Michael Robertson, the Lindows founder, has announced in his 'Michael's Minute' newsletter that Lindows has started the creation of a Frontpage-type program for Linux, called Nvu." Nvu promises to be "...a complete Web Authoring System for Linux Desktop users to rival programs like FrontPage and Dreamweaver", is "100% open source", and will be free to download when it launches.
The fact that it's built from the Mozilla code base is encouraging...
Unfortunately (according to the FAQ), it won't be available until the first quarter of 2004
vi is all you need, anything else is for failures...
If you don't know HTML, then you don't deserve to have a website.
But can it rival this?
You wouldn't think the guy who was able to combine "The instability of Windows, with the complexity of Linux"(or was it the other way...) would be able to even have any ground on which to speak of Linux. Lindows has not been all it was once hyped up to be, and this guy isn't a Linux guru. Bah, he has no place to talk.
I mean... They actually REALLY use them?
I thought every self-respecting geek just used text editors.
best web host ever
I would predict that this will not exactly be "free to download." Perhaps free to download with your subscription to Lindows.
Free Ipod here
How dare you imply that emacs is JUST a text editor? After all, that's the only thing a self-respecting Geek uses...
"He who would learn astronomy, and other recondite arts, let him go elsewhere. " -- John Calvin, commenting on Genesis 1
it will be more like dreamweaver, and less like frontpage. I can handle a tool that takes out a lot of the headaches from doing rollovers, adding scripting, and flash files. Dreamweaver was always great at that (I haven't messed with web design in a few years). But if anyone tries something as stupid as frontpage extensions, I hope the whole community laughs in thier face. From what I've seen from him, he is not stupid, just trying to make it easier for non-tech geeks to get away from windows, and this could be a good thing. I have had many people tell me one of the reasons for shying away from linux is (besides lack of cutting edge games) no easy wysiwyg html editors. Not everyone wants to lookn at the code. Granted, even when I used to use dreamweaver, the code always got cleaned up in homesite or notepad (thank god I use linux now) before it ever saw the net. This should work out to be a good move.
for sure Robertson has some commercial idea under it, as happens with all his projects. That happened with mp3.com(which was founded by Robertson). mp3.com was completely free innovative place at the beginning, and only after years it it became obvious, that the whole idea of it was to sell it for as big $ as possible...
We could have saved sixpence. We have saved fivepence.
I think creating a Golive clone would be much more useful.
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
Same ol' from Robertson and co, take an existing open source project, change a few graphics, and call it a revolutionary new product which will change the world.
Guy's got balls, I'll give him that.
I congratulate the lindows team for launching this project.. clearly not aimed a linux geeks, but for the average lindows user. Those who use vi or emacs wont be using lindows anyway... thank you lindows for making linux more accessable to those who are fed up with windows
I use emacs. What's the big deal?
This sig no verb.
I'll still use vi instead.
Whoa! Why would ANYBODY use a disgustingly bad editor like VI!
GO EMACS - the galaxy's best editor!
xmlns:w="ur n:schemas-nvu-com:nvu:editor"w 3.org/TR/REC-html40">
> f gte mso 9]><xml>w serLevel>
xmlns="http://www.
<head>
<meta http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=windows-1252">
<meta name=ProgId content=Nvu.Document>
<meta name=Generator content="Nvu 1.0">
<meta name=Originator content="Nvu 1.0">
<link rel=File-List href="hello_html_files">
<title>Slashdot Comment</title>
<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:DocumentProperties>
<o:Author>AC</o:Author>
<o:LastAuthor>AC</o:LastAuthor>
<o:Revision>1</o:Revision>
<o:TotalTime>1</o:TotalTime>
<o:Created>2003-10-30T03:05:00Z</o:Created&g t;
<o:LastSaved>2003-10-30T03:06:00Z</o:LastSaved>
<o:Pages>1</o:Pages>
<o:Characters>5</o:Characters>
<o:Lines>1</o:Lines>
<o:Paragraphs>1</o:Paragraphs>
<o:CharactersWithSpaces>5</o:CharactersWithSpaces
<o:Version>10.2625</o:Version>
</o:DocumentProperties>
</xml><![endif]--><!--[i
<w:NvuDocument>
<w:GrammarState>Clean</w:GrammarState>
<w:Compatibility>
<w:BreakWrappedTables/>
<w:SnapToGridInCell/>
<w:WrapTextWithPunct/>
<w:UseAsianBreakRules/>
</w:Compatibility>
<w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:Bro
</w:WordDocument>
</xml>
</head>
<body lang=EN-US style='tab-interval:.5in'>
<div class=Section1>
<p class=NvuoNormal>Like frontpage, huh?</p>
</div>
</body>
</html>
The thing is just a rerelease of mozilla composer man.
You can start using it way before 2004, go to mozilla.org and download it today!
is a Quickbooks replacement. Give me that and I could have every office in town running Linux. I mean, with it you can have a $25,000/year secretary do your accounting instead of a $60,000+ CPA (at least for small to mid-sized businesses). That's the killer app Linux is missing.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
why? you should be using emacs. ;)
as someone said elsewhere in this article: CONVERT HEATHEN!
atleast it will put out compliant HTML code. One more incentive to get people to switch.
...a complete Web Authoring System for Linux Desktop users to rival programs like FrontPage and Dreamweaver.
Make it stop! Make it stop!!!
*curls up in ball on floor*
Malike Bamiyi wanted my assistance.
Mainly due to the fact that IT IS Mozilla Composer.
Damn, you gotta give the Lindows marketing department credit though, it does make the company look all innovative or something...
well, ok, not innovate per se, but at least productive...
Have you seen all the empty paragraphes at the end of the pages?
Have they used their NVu? :)
Why all the criticism for anyone wanting to use something other than notepad or vi? WYSIWYG webpage creators are still very useful even if you code your own html.
you will still have no job.
He should look at Macromedia's Contribute as well which has, in my opinion, one of the slickest user interfaces ever created, period. It functions like a browser until you click the edit button where it switches seamlessly to edit mode.
Contribute, mind you, is more of a webpage editor than a full-fledge web design tool, but web designers worth their salt use text editors or Macs anyway.
Sweet! more choices is always good -
:(
and with this program, you won't get the rug pulled out from under you for dcma violations
FYI the second screenshot looks just like the standard Mozilla Composer "Publish Settings" screen. Of course Nvu's lead developer Daniel Glazman is the Module owner of Mozilla Composer (see his CV for details. For those who are interested NOW, just download a copy of Mozilla 1.5 and try out the much improved Composer. Hopefully we can see more improvement in Nvu and Composer with Lindows' sponsorship.
Codeala - Just another mindless drone
With web management. So, the editor may be Moz Composer, but some new stuff is on it.
C++ is just a rerelease of C man
I know there are a lot of geeks out there who will blast this effort as unnecessary--they are the same people who believe the best HTML editor is really a text-editor with an HTML quick-reference sheet handy... These are some of the very same people who loathe the idea of ANYTHING that might pollute the open source world with Windows-like things--in short: anything that infringes on their idea of Unix-like purity. Sure, I too can edit HTML myself if I really wanted to.
However, I think this effort is a HUGE leap forward, not only because it is all open source, but because it is one more tool in the open source arsenal that can be used to fight back at the Microsoft camp.
The fact of the matter is, there are a LOT of people out there for whom FrontPage is absolutely indispensible. These are some of the same people who will be asking a very pointed and straightforward question about migrating to Linux: "Will Linux run something like Microsoft Office?" Just as we need an Office suite like OpenOffice or StarOffice, I think it is high time we had a complete website authoring tool. People from all walks of life, both those in the professional world as well as those doing it just as a hobby, could benefit.
Hmm, that looks a lot like mozilla's composer++ which is being worked on by D. Glazman... who happens to have recieved payment from Lindows. hmmm :)
where are the open source versions of Clippy and MS Bob?
Having done a presentation on Frontpage Extensions and Apache at ApacheCon, I can officially say that the Frontpage system of doing things sucks ass in the Microsoft way.
I'm welcoming any open source replacement.
This is not a troll .. but Lindows is just a glorified version of Xandros ... M. Robertson and company are riding on the hype ... with no real product of their own to show for themselves ... in fact at least M$ develops the core of its own OS ... well I guess this is a troll ...
Looks like a few XUL based enhancments. Not that that's a bad thing but the majority of this is based on work the Mozilla devs put in.
Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws-Plato
Thanks - you saved me from reading the article :)
I messed around with Mandrake 9.1 for a while (had to go back to Windows after wireless card troubles). I would have been more inclined to remain with Mandrake had I had a decent web editor.
The same applies to MANY people.
The lack of professional applications on Linux has kept many supporting Microsoft over the years, simply because they have no alternative.
I'm not quite ready to abandon Photoshop and learn GIMP, but Linux is moving one step closer to becomming a viable desktop option for everyone.
The Political Programmer
Why do they(Nvu, Macromedia, etc.) insist on using FTP to update remote sites? SSH would be a lot more secure.
Sarcasm and self-importance aside, there is some validity to "if they need a gui, they shouldn't have a web site". The average Windows user has little to no need for web page design software. Having said that, it's good that Lindows is creating tools for your average Windows user. Making "idiot proof" apps is the best way to get Windows users to use Linux.
Jesus, there's less than a hundred posts and there are already people trying to act cool and knowledgeble by saying that they do all of their HTML coding in vi and Emacs. Good for you. No wonder your web pages look like shit. Have you take a look at www.gnu.org lately? Lots of great info, but it's uglier than sin. People who design great looking websites usually do a quick layout in Dreamweaver, and then finetune the HTML in vi, Emacs, BBEdit, etc. Best of both worlds.
I have no idea why this was modded as flamebait, because it's absolutely true. Vnu? It's probably a recursive acronym for Vnu's Not Useful, especially considering that it appears to be built on Mozilla Composer, which is the best program in the world at taking perfectly logical, efficient HTML and adding loads of useless text garbage to it, increasing its byte size by 3x.
He is talking about EDITORS, not OS's!
gnucash?
Just another editor for me to waste time pressing the ^[:wq!
for the last time people, I am "frodo from middle eaRTH", not "middle eaST".
WYSIWYG HTML editors are very useful to get most of your interface done FAST ; then, you can change some details with your favorite text editor.
Furthermore, writing accuented text in plain HTML is such a pain in the ass it's not even funny. You have to type stuff like "é" instead of a sole key on a French keyboard ( I'm French-speaking ), and since most languages have non-standard - according to English, that is... - characters and that these are very common in text for some languages, I think such a feature is essential to a top notch international HTML editor.
I don't care much about vi and Emacs fanboys in here arguing how lame WYSIWYG editors are, the fact remains the same : these can do the bulk of some work fast, easily and effectively, and details can then be reworked in HTML mode as needed. Get the memo : knowing HTML doesn't make you 1337.
Waiting for the flames...
United States of America, good ol' backers of world peace.
Say what you want about the quality of the Lindows product -- these guys understand what it means to give back to the community. Good for them.
Finding God in a Dog
You forgot to put in the link
Ho! Haha! Guard! Turn! Parry! Dodge! Spin! Ha! Thrust!
How is this different than Quanta?
This is a long time coming, and finally, it's been announced! Happy day! This is a godsend, especially for a small peanuts web author like myself.
I've been told Dreamweaver runs under WINE. I've tried it with many different kernels, builds, distros... All with no success. Now that a program to rival Dreamweaver is in the works, my days of being stuck in Winblows hell are almost over. This was the only thing stopping me from totally migrating over to Linux...
Thank you!
Blog Prophyts - Right On, Man
When he says "open source," what exactly does he mean?
Oh and I have to ask, just in case anyone here knows. QT, GTK, XUL, or Other?
Mac OS X needs another WYSIWYG editor and site manager. Dreamweaver sucks (too slow) and Adobe GoLive has an overly complex interface. Something like this would be a welcome addition to my Mac!
I personally think DWMX is a great program. It greatly improves productivity. Of course I will state that if the new thing is the least bit front page, then it is worth of some critisism. DWMX is very customizable. Therefore I use it to generate clean and w3 compliant code. I have also customized it to deal with php and other langs just fine. If some one has thought of something similiar for Linux, more power to them. Saying vi or emacs only is just BS. In the real world, speed, efficiency and ease of use beat out idealism.
That's great that MS FP will have an opensource competitor, but while they're at it, could they write a HTML display engine for Java? Seriously, Sun's built in Java HTML engine sucks. Can't use anything except the most basic HTML elements, and even those behave a little wacky. I know Java would be whole lot more useful if I could write help pages in HTML, then display them inside a Java application.
Because you'll be able to accomplish ten times as much by simply hitting the buttons and moving stuff around on the page.
Seriously, it's nice to be able to code HTML and all, but there are some pages which, no matter how good you are, you cannot write as quickly as you can throw them together by dragging stuff around. It's just not humanly possible to type that fast.
snot....
...
/snot....
SQL-Ledger is a double entry accounting system. Accounting data is stored in a SQL Server, for the display any text or GUI browser can be used. The entire system is linked through a chart of accounts. Each item in inventory is linked to revenue, expense, inventory and tax accounts. When you sell and purchase goods and services the accounts are automatically updated.
With the assembly feature you can build manufactured goods from parts, services and assemblies. When you sell assemblies all the accounts linked to the individual parts, services and assemblies are updated and stock levels adjusted accordingly. If any item belonging to an assembly is changed all assemblies are updated as well.
Invoices, Packing List, Income Statement, Balance Sheet, Sales and Purchase Order, Statements, Receipts and Checks are generated from templates and may be changed to suit your needs. Templates are provided in html and tex format. The tex templates are processed with latex to produce postscript and PDF documents and can be sent to a printer, displayed in a PDF viewer or sent out via email
SQL-Ledger can be used on any UNIX, Mac OS X and Windows computer. The application is written in Perl, developed on FreeBSD and Linux with Galeon, Konqueror, Netscape, Lynx, Links, W3M, Voyager, Explorer to render the display, Apache, thttpd, boa to communicate between the server and the browser, and PostgreSQL, Oracle, or DB2 to store accounting data.
And when the IRS calls in your "secretary" to explain some "discrepencies"? What're you going to do? At least the CPA will go to the audit with you, and explain. Some will even pay any penalties.
A true Vi troll
Were five-digit IDs handed out before the sense of humor was invented, or was it crushed out of them by the users with the four-digit IDs?
I'd have to agree. There are already three GREAT free-software editors; nano, vim, and even emacs, anyone?
...with the die-hard unix folks being the slytherins and the lindows folks being the gryfindors trying to help everyone discover the magical powers of linux, and escape from the muggle world of Windows.
Linux users already have the knowledge of HTML...
CHEERS
--RoadkillBunny
Cheers,
RoadkillBunny
YOU FOOL! Emacs is the OS. Vi is the hard, cryptic editor no one wants to learn.
Remember? This is Slashdot, Jesus!
Linux already has "a complete Web Authoring System for Linux Desktop users to rival programs like FrontPage and Dreamweaver". It's called vim. And it p0wns FP and Dreamweaver. DISCLAIMER: It's a joke. Laugh.
#include "sig.h"
"Waiting for the flames..."
Here's one. Guess what jobs are going to India? Yup! Dreamweaver and Frontpage in 24 hours jobs.
BlueFish has occupied this space for quite some time. The spin is vintage Michael Roberson of course. We've been here before, people. He's an early adopter with a megaphone that's twice the size of yours. After all, HE KNEW ABOUT MP3 BEFORE YOU DID.
There are times I'd really wish that the tech media would genuinely research the subject matter instead of just amplifying hype. Hard-working, often-silent open source incumbent projects deserve nothing less.
http://tinyurl.com/4ny52
Quanta is simply bloomin' awesome right now. NO NEED for some half-baked piece of crap that has less features than it has. Which will be just about anything.
They should throw those developers at making Quanta better instead - it doesn't need much more to start making waves.
...Steve
Hmm, Mozilla (standalone) Composer and Composer++ is nice.
I guess the editing on the server thing might be the thing missing. Don't you have to have a server side component to do it right?
Phillip
A replacment for Intuit suite of products.
Quicken = GnuCash, MoneyDance
TurboTax = ??
Homesite = Bluefish
MS Office = Open Office
Photoshop = Gimp
This may be the final nail.
Combining Amaya, Mozilla, and Quanta with a touch of SodiPodi would have been more interesting.
Remember people. Standards.
I was introduced to SQL-Ledger 2 years ago, and thought of it as a nice 'toy'.
:))
Last year, I ran into a Contractor who is replacing small businesses running QuickBooks with SQL-Ledger. And he was putting $$$ into his pocket and he was focusing on easily managed solutions.
I have convinced one of my smaller contracts to evaluate SQL-Ledger. They took to it like fish to water. It is still officially in evaluation, but the QuickBooks system has started to grow cold and stale. The SQL-Ledger page has a nice script that assists most migration tasks. I have yet to migrate the archived data.
I especially like the idea of running a full application server on thttpd....
Mozilla Composer is no match for Dreamweaver right now for WYSIWYG web page dev. As an open source developer who desparately wants this project, should I work on Mozilla or this new thing? I can't find anything on the Mozilla roadmap that says they're moving in this direction. Anybody know something I don't?
Free to download, cool. That's nice.
But will it run on anything other than Lindows? Considering Lindows costs money, saying that Nvu is free to download and neglecting to mention that it only runs on Lindows wouldn't be something I'd put past Robertson.
It's like how MS offers IE 'free to download' (or used to) but it only runs on Windows - big deal, you have to buy Windows to get it.
using namespace slashdot;
troll::post();
If you are going to make money, spend money. Spend the money and get a proper accounting system.
Does it include any quality control systems for manufacturing?
http://jesus.everdense.com/
I was just talking to my father about html editors. He is taking an HTML web clas in florida which is spending more time teaching him front page rather than teaching him HTML. I was explaining to him that Netscape/Mozilla's editor produce some of the best code, but was a pain to use whereas Frontpage, MS Office and Dreamweaver are absolute nightmares on the code (looks like ppl on crack and just learning how to code did it). What he wants is a nice simple easy to use editor for doing a web site, so thanx.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
to communicate
1. Lindows is crap. Do some research for yourself. Google up "lindows security root" and see for yourself.
2. Frontpage is total, absolute, complete monkey shit trash.
Frontpage mangles html pages so far beyond salvage that NO OTHER html editor can ever work with that page. It renders the pages almost unreadable by human beings because it throws SO MUCH non-standard bullshit in there.
Frontpage can take a 4k webpage and when it's done the same page will then be 400k of bullshit.
Only the most ignorant of the ignorant that ride the short yellow bus to Internet class on Friday night use frontpage. God, I don't think even M$ uses frontpage to do their own shit with..
Please, let's stop this Lindows mess and let's stop the frontpage insanity..
If you really want a good HTML editor and you're using KDE on any *nix variant, you might want to try Quanta. Plus, they're working on the next version that will make it a full WYSIWYG HTML editor. Some say it can compete Dreamweaver.
- Lindows.com is *paying* a developer to continue working on a current OSS product, Mozilla, which in turn will add to their product
- nvu claims to be fully open source, which they seem to have every intention of following up on.
- Lindows.com is paying.
This is a case of lindows putting their money where their mouth is. They're contributing to open source, while also trying to differentiate themselves in the market. Let's give em a chance here.I think SQL-ledger is written in perl.
Even I could hire a perl Kaptain to create a new function in an application....
Indeed the "Publish Settings" dialog shown in this image sitemanager.jpg still has the Mozilla icon on it.
--Murray Barton
Bluefish
Screem
Quanta
And you forgot to set your self importance aside. There is no validity to "if they need a gui, they shouldn't have a web site". Who are you to say who should and shouldn't have websites? And who are you to insist that people use computers in the same way that you do?
But claiming that there is no need for good graphical HTML editors (Dreamweaver is the only one that currently really rates as good, BTW) is a nonsense.
That may have been the case a few years ago, but as anyone who claims to know anything about the field knows, you should be using XHTML and CSS now.
When you separate presentation from content, you can easily use a text editor for the content, and not lose any context.
What would be more useful, however, is a CSS previewer, but CSS is, mostly, consistent so producing the look you want isn't so difficult anyway.
Why is the parent moderated Troll? Parent post has valid points.
GoLive is by far the best tool out there. I can't fathom why Dreamweave still has a tight grip on market. Maybe all those UI guys just like to stick with what they know best? Time to update those skills and go with GoLive I say.
-----
One is born into aristocracy, but mediocrity can only be achieved through hard work.
Excuse you fucker! GNAA is racist because it's a bunch of stupid, straight (as in non-homosexual) pencil necked, pencil dicked, white boy geeks. There is nothing black or gay about them. Anyone who is not black, but throws the N word around is a racist. Stupid cuntass mother fucker. Now go somewhere and die.
MozillaZine has an article about Nvu with some tasty details.
So, it's based on Mozilla Composer, the lead of developer of Composer will be on board and it's going to be released until the Mozilla Public License. Could it get any better?
I smell a bad egg...
The FAQ says Nvu will be "covered under the MPL".
Mozilla is tri-licensed MPL/GPL/LGPL, so the user chooses which license they wish to use the software under.
Lindows.com can't alter the licensing situation of existing mozilla code, but if they only make their improvements available under the MPL - it will be Free Software, but the mozilla folks won't be able to merge improvements into the mozilla codebase.
So basically, Lindows.com are fulfilling the bare minimum legal requirement, and purposely blocking cooperation (so they can have the best version).
Either that or the FAQ is wrong, but Lindows.com have a shakey record in terms of community spirit.
Ciaran O'Riordan
Expert in software patents or patent law? Contribute to the ESP wiki!
I thought only Microsoft announced vaporware. Geez. Open-Source is becoming more like them all the time. Show us some working code, and then crow about it.
The Mozilla/Netscape Composer module is a solid tool for non-techies to create and maintain web pages. If Nvu keeps that going, while the Mozilla crew focus instead on the browser and mail client, that's a Good Thing.
Excellent insight!
creation science book
I use hotmail and normaly Michaels Minute is right there with the rest of the spam that gets threw the filter but this time is was put into the other spam folder (read: where spam is supposed to go) Unless something in the mail triggered the filter I'm guessing MS doesn't like this idea getting out.
I think you have a mis conception of what Nvu is and will be. Yes, it is taken from Composer, but more recently it is taken from Glazman's Composer++.
This will definitally not be the old buggy mozilla composer that it used to be. Daniel Glazman has some hot stuff up his sleevs for Nvu (a.k.a. composer ++).
Not to mention, since AOL fired all the Moz Devs, Lindows is now forking out money to Daniel to get Nvu up and running.
It's not flamebait, it's true. Create a a SIMPLE html document with a few tables, a few pictures, a few simple forms and a few paragraphs of text inserted into the tables.
Then VIEW the raw html code.
It's un-fucking-readable people.
Make the same page in another editor, any other editor for that matter and view the raw html code.
You'll quickly see the difference. Then try to load and edit a html page created with frontpage into any other html editor of your choice and try to change some things around. You'll swear an oath that you'll beat the shit out of the next person you meet that utters the words "I use frontpage"..
You are lame, aren't you?
...for BBEdit. Because It Doesn't Suck. Someone needs to build a workalike for BBEdit that runs on Linux, because Bluefish, Quanta and Screem all are wannabe HomeSite clones. I mean, HomeSite is nice, but BBEdit just...rocks, y'know?
Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
The biggest thing missing from Mozilla Composer is the ability to create form elements... why, oh why, haven't they added this feature?
sxwvlty1 so it could be more easily pronounced.
A while ago, I've read somewhere ( don't remember the place, sorry ) that some old versions of some browsers had issues about ISO char tables. Moreover, I've seen many ISO web pages rendered weirdly on Macs ( random accents stuff ) and I just don't wanna see my web page wrecked like these, so I consider it more safe to use the original char table even while writing in French, and WYSIWYG editors allow me to do it quite alright.
United States of America, good ol' backers of world peace.
Today on Slashdot, egomaniac vjmurphy declared that instead of using a new HTML editor designed for web authors, he was instead going to rebel and use a decades old tool to edit HTML by hand.
Leading the charge in the Resistance To All Things GUI, he was quoted as saying:
I'll still use vi instead.
Good job! You stick it to the man! When you go blind from living in your parent's basement for 40 years, just think of all the extra mouseclicks you saved by not using Nvu! Wow! You might also want to save power by not having a graphics card and just have text to speech program read you back any text! Actually, use a typewriter!
In other news, somewhere not near a vi user, a graphical software tool was used for the purpose that it was designed for. Productivity might have been greater than with a 30 year old line editor.
If only we could mandate that anyone who writes a blog does so in emacs. The average intellectual quality of the web would fscking skyrocket.
http://www.gnucash.org/
This is a great improvement of free web authoring tools, but today most websites do not consist of static pages. This worries me as this tool doesn't seam to handle that.
To be a Frontpage/Dreamweaver killer it need to handle database driven websites in a simple fashion. It also need to handle serverside scripting like jsp/php.
Anyway it's a start.
God is REAL! Unless explicitly declared INTEGER
Action 5 News caught vjmurphy as he emerged from his basement to buy some Ramen, and got THIS choice quote from him: "I measure my dicksize by the amount of archane knowledge I can hold over those morons' heads out there. Bunch of idiots have to click'n'drool to get anything done!"
50$ says this app only works on nVidia cards. Oh come on it's just a joke.
Trolls dont like to be Flamebait, because they burn so well. Protect our Troll heritage!
but can SQL-Ledger do payroll automatically (including factoring in tax tables)? If it can, wow. I'll shut up and be very, very happy :). From what I understand, Quickbooks can download the lastest tax information for your state and handle stuff like withholding and deductions for you automatically, without you having to have a detailed knowledge of tax law. To be fair, I don't know what I'm talking about here. I've perused the SQL-Ledger site a bit, and it definately has features to deal with taxes. I don't know enough to say how sophistocated they are.
Still, is SQL-Ledger as braindead simple as Quickbooks? Again, can I give it to a secretary and expect her to do my 100 employee or so's accounting reliably?
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
snot....
...
/snot....
Ahh, I think you meant snort.
your ip is 68.34.115.52
... trolling isn't allowed and your just gay
... try and get me removed ... you know what? ... i'm over it
... fuck off
get the fuck out of #tcpa and stop whoring mod points
go ahead and bitch to aardy
now
!!
At the risk of feeding trolls, you're mistaken, vi is a slim effeicent editor. Emacs is the correct operating, err.. editor you were referring to.
..There's a-dooin's a-transpirin'
Yeah well screw you VI and EMACS users, I do hand coding the REAL way. None of this weak-ass text editing stuff. If you want real layout you need to get as serious as me! Why the real hardcore people like me just build a cleanroom, then we take apart our hard drives and encode the binary ASCII codes onto the hard drives with little tiny maginets. It gives you such cleaner ASCII than what those crappy text editors can put out. Plus, I get to chose my text format from the get go, DOS, Mac, UNIX, whatever I want. Hell, I can even mix and match for the best compatability. Lets see your silly text editors do that!
I looked and looked on each of the two pages ;-p even looked at the screenshot... didn't see CSS mentioned even one time.
The future is CSS and DOM, not to mention XForms, SVG and XML services. I'm not saying that this NVU will be amateur or a poor editor, just that it won't be a real contender for a long time.
A fool throws a stone into a well and a thousand sages can not remove it.
Since Michael Robertson is looked upon as a stooge by the Linux crowd, maybe he is providing a peace offering. Is there an alterier motive, or will this cost money?
" code a lot over there... Or they just fell asleep and landed on ^V on the keyboard at the end of the document.Gr@ve_Rose
!ekoj on si aixelsyD
As a part time web designer, in my experience HTML can be hand coded. But you know what can't be done by hand? Laying out the design of a site. Sure GIMP is good for image manipulation... but I'm pretty certain that there isn't a free version of something Fireworksesque out there. HTML is easy without a killer app. Design is hard without a killer app. If the linux community wants to have full out webdesigners (coders and graphics) join their ranks, then this is a MUST. Hell, IMHO... vi is a perfect HTML and PHP killer app. ------- Why does my head hurt? hampton2600.com
"I don't want to start a holy war here..."
In that case no thanks...
I stick with my Bluefish editor
Way more elegant (non bloat) design...
and that's a fact jack!
Alot of systems exist only to run QuickBooks while Intuit has done just about everything to gouge and piss off their once loyal customer base well beyond even Microsofts product "lock in" and rape strategy with Windows and Office.
Given a good QuickBooks clone, more than a few people would be asking about this Linux alternative they been hearing about. The resultant rollout could be huge.
Now that you mention it, I'm surprised the big distro's haven't thrown some development money that way. QuickBooks is a known killer app. To bad you have to deal with Intuit.
I never knew it but Lindows has a good DVD playback software program. I'll even pay for a downloadable version to run on SuSE! I've emailed them several times but they never respond.
Look at the screenshots... the little dialog box still has the mozilla dinosaur icon on it!
Warning: Failed opening '/var/www/goat/nero.inc' for inclusion (include_path='.:/usr/share/pear') in /var/www/vhosts/24.174.81.26/index.php on line 2
Isn't there some sort of law against mentioning FrontPage and Dreamweaver in the same sentence? If not, there damn well should be.
Hell, I'm about as pro-MS as you can get on Slashdot, and even I think FrontPage is rancid. It's great for cranking out sites according to its template kits, but for anything heavier-duty than a personal page, it's time for Dreamweaver. Even Visual InterDev was better than FrontPage.
I think I've looked at Bluefish before.
:-)
There are several great editors out there and Bluefish certainly stands near the top but...
where is the site manager like you'd find in Dreamweaver or (shudder) Frontpage?
Sorry, I love Linux and all other FLOSS. I use OpenOffice.org wherever possible. I browse and do email with Mozilla... I advocate as much as possible but until there is a high quality web authoring tool which also has a site editor, the only way you'll get me to give up Dreamweaver is by prying it out of my cold dead hand.
But I have hope - the tide of Open Source is rising faster and faster!
obviously Dell and AOL/Time Warner need CPAs. Medium sized (100 or so employees) buisnesses don't. I know of several that are doing exactly what I'm talking about. Accounting is basically a repetitive task that's only difficult because of the sheer number of laws, rules and computations involved. Quickbooks automates all that, reducing acounting to data entry.
As for a secretary being terrified of Linux, what makes you think they're not terrified of Windows. I once had to fix a computer where they only thing wrong was the secretary clicking 'cancel' when I.E. asked them if they wanted to leave a secure web site (they're homepage was a secure site, they couldn't get to any other site because they'd click cancel every time the dialog popped up). Computers are just tools to most people. Very expensive tools they're afraid of breaking. Heck, if anything Linux could finally put a stop to this nonsensical fear:
Me: This is your new computer.
Secretary: It looks complicated...
Me: Don't worry, you can't break anything. It won't let you.
Once people get used to computers they can't break the fear will evaporate and they'll start reading dialog boxes instead of panicing and clicking 'cancel'.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
Those who sacrifice security to condemn liberty deserve to repeat history or something. - Benjamin Santayana
http://www.geocities.com/cdsixfour/toberemoved/lin dows.jpg
Type that into a new browser window if the link doesn't work.
Come-on Lindows Octopus.... no hitting below the belt!
READY.
PRINT ""+-0
I think they already have a HTML editor that rivals FP and DW for Linux that is 100% OSS. It's called Mozilla Composer, it's bundled with a browser.
-illumina+us "I put on my robe and wizard hat..."
I've just checked in the application database, and it looks like Quickbooks Pro can be made to work under wine.
Give me CAD software (like Solidworks 2003) and I'll throw my Windows away forever.
...He mocked my DS9 fanfic!
*sniffle*
I use Vim for just about anything involving editing text. I'm a web developer so I started off with Allaire Homesite, then moved to ColdFusion Studio, then Dreamweaver when CF Studio was discontinued. After about 3 months using Dreamweaver, I switched to a Windows build of gVim and I'm very happy with it.
But you have to admit that Vim is definitely not for everyone. You wouldn't give it to your average business user -- or even to a HTML newbie. It's not only the unusual keyboard shortcuts and the RegExp-driven text find / replace that make it totally unusable for a non-geek, but Vim is still a primarily text-based app that doesn't even offer code hinting.
These days, HTML is commonly used in a typical business. If Linux wants to make it to the business desktop, it is important to have a good quality WYSIWYG HTML editor to give to those who can barely use a word processor, and those who just want to make quick edits without having to learn HTML. Face it, not everyone wants to do that.
And for the people who do know HTML (like myself), their life would become much easier if the people who don't could give them a simple HTML page instead of a horrible MS Word doc that's impossible to automatically convert to anything resembling sane, semantically correct HTML.
No flame intended, just wanted to point out that this project is not such a bad idea after all.
I signed up for a
It was hard to win over our investors, who wanted us to use Quickbooks, but eventually it came down to the, "if your going to put me in charge, let me run the damn thing". Somehow, despite my arrogance, we got our $600 white box with OpenBSD set-up in the office and the secatary/bookkeeper inputs invoices on her iMac with Safari without any complaints. (yes, our shop is 100% *BSD between Free, Open, and OS X)
"The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money" - Thatcher.
Good point! I always wanted an editor or IDE that supports the Vim key bindings. In fact, the lack of them turned me off Bluefish, Quanta and Anjuta even though all three are really nice editors / IDEs.
Of course an editor that supports the Vim shortcuts could still have a WYSIWIG interface and implement the usual Windows / Gnome / KDE shortcuts like Ctrl+C, Ctrl+Z, etc. Wouldn't it be nice? I think the main reason why such editor doesn't exist is because the Vim users rather stick to Vim than implement something like that for another IDE.
I signed up for a
--Way back in the day (like '96 or '97) I tried using Netscape composer, but stopped pretty much immediately because it screwed up the source HTML code so bad.
.
== WolfriderV6 == I'm willing to admit that *I just might* be wrong... Are you??
XHTML realizes to the fullest extent yet the power of CSS, and is slowly forcing a new level of standards compliance on what was before (and still is to a great degree) a very fractured browser base.
Then again, I'm not surprised that someone who prefers Office97 to Office 2000, XP or 2003 (or oOo for that matter) has no use for XML structure in daily tasks.
If XML is so worthless in presentation documents, why is just about every layout app (not just BS formatting toys like Word) including Illustrator, ImageReady, Acrobat, Freehand, Fireworks, Flash etc. (Quark is notably lagging, as usual) moving to XML for the internal structure that organizes the document content? Is it just a bandwagon that everybody is on because their collective arch-rival MS hyped it and "bet the farm" (ummm... yeah... that'd be great) on it? IDFTS!
Can I bum a sig? I left mine at the office.
QuickBooks for Mac is popular, but it is hardly running in every office in town, although in many respects OS X is a superior OS for small business users.
Unfortunately the Lemming Factor is extraordiarily strong. It's the dark side of the infamous network effect. Everyone jumps off the same Windows cliff, even when a nice foot path with hand rails is available.
QuickBooks for Linux would be great. But it alone would hardly convert the masses in droves.
Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
Speaking as someone who never really learned a lot of HTML, yet who has built quite a few web sites using WYSIWYG tools (plus some editing of the generated code to clean it up or fix little things, a bit of "cut and paste" javascript, and so on) -- I have to say I always *liked* FrontPage.
Granted, the extensions are a big problem - but I think mostly because of their poor implementation, as opposed to in concept. (It seems to me that "WebDav" is trying to be a standardized version of the same basic idea, these days.)
The biggest reason I think FrontPage is so widely disliked is the tendency for people to use the built-in "themes", which were generally rather gaudy, and always immediately obvious when they're used. (By contrast, Adobe GoLive comes with 5 or 6 sample sites that people often build new pages from as templates, but they're more "professional" looking and tasteful - so the results are better.)
IMHO, there's really no reason, nowdays, why it shouldn't be pretty much "point and click" to add such common elements as a response form to email or even online checkout via PayPal, and even features like text inside graphical buttons should be generated "on the fly", if needed.
It amazes me that even today, some people have 4 or 5 programs they go between to get a basic site put together - and they *still* usually have to tie it all together with some handwritten HTML in a text editor. (Perhaps even more amazing, some of these same people will tell you it's somehow better and more efficient than having all of these features rolled up into a user-friendly tool. Go figure....)
"... like FrontPage and Dreamweaver..."
It pains me that those two applications were compared; just like a ferrari and a one wheeled skateboard.
I think Frodo meant 'WYSIWYG aside'.
But you are right, there are things that are quicker in an editor that writes HTML for you (or at least does code hinting), especially if you don't know HTML inside out. And there is certainly a bigger market out there for WYSIWIG editors than there is for Vim ;-)
I signed up for a
IBM released Websphere Homepage Builder for Linux a couple years ago, and that was pretty nifty for what it was. I just checked, and it looks like they didn't upgrade their Linux port of the program to the current version. It's not free, but I liked it tons better than Frontpage.
Thats a huge annoucement! This could severly hurt Macromedia. Either people have been right, OSS is going to take away jobs or it'll force companies such as Macromedia to continue enhancing their products with not seen before features... theres a word for it, just cant think of it atm :)...
I used this at my last possition ALOT. We did have licences for it and before i left/was made redundant we were looking at OSS for many of our tools, such as OpenOffice (OO) to replace word. Theres no doubt that this Nvu will be one of the great open source apps, up there with OO, linux, Mozilla etc!
And that word i was looking for is "Inovate". Macromedia are going to have to continualy inovate and enahnce their product by thinking of new ideas, or support new technologies like XML and XSL to get people to keep buying their stuff..
I guess this means im not going to have look for Dreamsweaver craks (which can be annoying) from now on!
OSS protects commercial vendors from illegal copies of their software!
Giving IE users a taste of their own medicine since 2005 - http://pods.-is-a-geek.net/
Booo-hoo. Don't you EVER get tired of replying to your own posts claiming the moderation was unfair? Do you really think anyone gives a flying fuck?
You'll swear an oath that you'll beat the shit out of the next person you meet that utters the words "I use frontpage"..
d00d, I suggest you seek professional help. No, really. You're probably just a fat, useless, tired asshole who couldn't beat the shit out of a wet sponge, but all this negative energy should be extricated some other way than ranting about how "M$ is teh sux". Really.
This is kinda like Zope except you can't do anything useful with it, like actually serve the generated site. Though I guess at some high level it could serve as an alternative user interface.
Ah well, the more software the merrier.
Matt
Now you know why I use cocoon. Gives me more control, rather than hoping for the best when dealing with browsers. BTW Browser discovery is old hat, and is "unfortunatly" necessary.
The fundamental solution is compounded by the complexity of the problem.
What about MathML and other XML?
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
Frontpage is great for what it is, which is a dumbed down web development tool. That's not meant to call someone dumb for using it, but it is what it is. It allows novices to easily create (generally bad) web content. I won't argue that doing it the handwritten way is more efficient, but it usually is better if you actually look at the content produced. Most WYSIWYG editors add a lot of uncessary tags into what they produce which just results in larger pages which isn't a desireable effect for a web page. That's something you generally don't see with pages handwritten by somebody that has a clue.
I'm all for user-friendly tools, but generally, people have their reasons for not using the ones that are available.
- b
For those with short term memories, there was just recently a discussion about Appgen and their business stability. Just a consideration.
Also, if you are a small to mid-sized business, do you need an on-staff accountant? Couldn't you handle things in the office, and get monthly/quarterly/yearly reports from an accounting firm as you need them?
Overrated / Underrated : Moderation
I thought the whole point of OSS was for people to build upon the work of others for the betterment of the community. If a company wants brownie points for marketing this neato stuff to the rest of the world, more power to them, provided they give back to the community (which, as Nvu is MPL, it looks like they will?).
But, I mean, would it hurt them to call it something like "Web page designer program," or some other *descriptive* name? What the hell is a "Nvu?" Oh, wait. Never mind. Though I guess "Dreamweaver" doesn't describe exactly what the product does, it's at least catchy and it's easy enough to guess that it's some kind of artsy-fartsy thing.
Ah well, I've been eating halloween candy for the last hour or so, excuse me if I'm not exactly lucid.
What about the children, you insencative clod?
Umm, I was commenting about the way the parent (granparent) entered the big mess of HTML markup for the one-line HTML page.
XML is 'worthless' for simple exposition and communications, because the written word is being presented, not a 'layout.'
And, gee. I never thought I'd get flamed on Slashdot for not liking Office 2000.
I must have fallen off the bandwagon or something.
A Good Intro to NetBS
There is nothing iffy about that. It is exactly what the tri-licence was set up for in the first place.
Boffoonery - downloadable Comedy Benefit for Bletchley Park
Kudos to the Lindows people on starting this project. They seem to bring a certain polish to OSS project which makes them easy for the masses to use. I think this will turn out well for them.
I hope that more companies follow the example that Apple (and others I'm sure) set when they helped create a commercial project (Safari) and improve a OSS project (KTHML) all at the same time...
I can't wait to try Nvu out!
No recursive edit is in progress. Never mind. Here's a command for people like you.
(shell-command "kedit" nil)
But I can already run DW MX with Crossover!!!
Great. Can you get DW free (legally)? Can you get the source code?
Have you tried Linux yet?
I don't care about HTML... give me a good XML authoring tool for Linux that doesn't involve OpenOffice with stylesheets.
Karma: It's all a bunch of tree-huggin' hippy crap!
If this product isn't vapor, where's the source? There's no reason they couldn't put up source or a developer preview.
"He who would learn astronomy, and other recondite arts, let him go elsewhere. " -- John Calvin, commenting on Genesis 1
Sounds exactly like FrontPage to me....
Your swipe was at XML integration into document formats as a whole and web documents in particular (or at least it seemed that way to me) as relates to presentation, or were we talking about something else?
Can I bum a sig? I left mine at the office.
Most people, when talking about vi, actually run VIM.
which is not that far off Emacs in its goal to become a complete OS in an editor.
Wow, I should not post when knackered.
Well, maybe if Internet Explorer really supported XHTML, that might be useful. Unfortunately, it doesn't really, except for the subset that Microsoft decided was all they needed. Last I heard, IE only implements a modest subset of HTML 4.0 any barely any of CSS 2.0 or higher.
Keys shmees :)
WYSIWYG is the important thing.
Building complex sites with nested tables and nested DIVs is a pain in the butt with a text editor. Being able to drag and drop tables is soooo handy. It saves a lot of development time.
Drag and drop a structure in you WYSIWYG editor, save it, and then pull it into your text editor.
"Things are more moderner than before- bigger, and yet smaller- it's computers-- San Dimas High School football RULES!"
This is Robertson's way of getting attention and trying to fool people into thinking he's doing something new. The formula is to repackage something you get for free and give it a new name.
I will credit him for packaging Linux for the masses better than others - RedHat wake up - yet jumping up and down and saying "Hey, here's a choice so you don't have to use those evil guys over there" isn't much of a value add.
Lindows should be marketed on its value (re-packaging of free software) rather than on constant and irrelevant comparisons to Windows.
You're not far off base there, but even with the small subset of CSS2+ that is supported, you can do much more with less code than the diverging DHTML methodologies so rampant before XHTML started getting some uptake. The positive thing is that you can build some very, very sharp looking stuff for the truly compliant browsers and still have it look OK in IE. Before that was possible, the tendency of a large number of designers was to code for buggy-as-hell but market dominating IE and let compliant browsers degrade, and that ends up looking like shit in the better browsers. At least this way, designers can shoot for the standard and let IE take the rap for being sub-par.
But yeah, I'm with you... wouldn't it be great if the overwhelmingly predominant browser out there conformed to the standards that much less funded efforts have little problem adhereing to pretty well? I can't believe there is a technological barrier to IE conforming. It has to be purely out of spite.
Can I bum a sig? I left mine at the office.
My 'swipe' was at Microsoft Internet Explorer, and Microsoft Word taking in a clean 'hand editable' HTML document that can be easily edited (i.e. to clip out the text content from a web page cleanly) and outputting an XML monstrosity that buries the text content in layers of dreck.
You can take a simple HTML page that someone edited using vi or what-not, read it with IE, and 'save' it to a hell of a mess.
As far as the comment about 'code for the visually-impaired'... ummm, if I produce a 'page' of HTML that is readable with lynx, I've not done (b) ignored them. Thanks for the accusation of political incorrectness, however.
I don't rightly know what we are talking about.
I know it has nothing to do with 'hearing the sound of my own voice.' Wherever the hell that came from...
A Good Intro to NetBS
You should take a closer look at the toolbar on screenshot available at http://nvu.com/screenshots.html
Daniel Glazman
We have designers that do all the GUI work, and while I code the back-end systems, we still have needs for some of our clients to create content for their own sites. We have real estate industry clients that need to be able to create listings in a WYSIWYG-style interface, and its simply not practical to code a java applet or DHTML widget for them to do this. We install DreamWeaver for them, works great.
There are offices with *several* employees dedicated to similar tasks. They need only a web browser, an Outlook clone, and a DreamWeaver clone to function. We're 2 for 3 now with Ximian Evolution. This will be very popular when its ready.
Hmm, the release date is said to be in the year 2004, if this is Open Source, can I find the source somewhere? Can I use it in my own open source projects? Is it Open or just seemingly open?
I think that this is a good idea; I know that there is some software that provides a decent IDE for HTML in KDE, however, the software is rather limited to HTML only.
:)
I think what the open source community needs is a general, all around, Development Enviornment where you can edit files in a raw mode, swap over to a WYSIWYG editor, then let them preview using the browser of their choice--for not just HTML, but for PHP, Perl, and SQL as well...something that would be integrated into the server, as well as the development client.
Just my thoughts...but, still, I'm looking forward to it
I disable sigs...do you?
It seems a lot of the 'purist' /. crowd always lean toward 'just use emacs or vi' to create HTML pages.
:)
/. crowd who feel that shockwave flash is a waste of time. They never seem to understand that it's not just code-jockeys who are serious computer nerds - the graphics nerds can be even more purist !
Obviously they have never maintained 30+ websites before
I guess it's the same
Wysiwyg HTML editors are a god-send to web developers, being one of the most time saving tools, which in turn saves money.
Certainly, a knowledge of coding raw HTML is a must for any web developer worth thier salt and Dreamweaver users often swich back and forward between code view and wysiwyg.
I hope the Nvu initiative does some great things - another quality HTML editor is always welcome.
A slashdotting - you get the stick first and then the carrot !
Nvu (pronounced N-view, for a "new view")
New view? Sure it is not announced as "Envy You"? Those Lindows guys just envy the people that can afford a real program like FrontPage.
-- The Internet is a too slow way of doing things, you'd never do without it.
Envy you? Why?
Yesterday was the time to do it right. Are we having a REVOLUTION yet?
For the mozilla folk to accept code into their tree, it has to use the standard mozilla tri-license.
Lindows could release their enhancements under the tri-license, but instead they have decided to only release them under the MPL, therefore blocking the mozilla crew from benefitting from the Lindows enhancements.
Yes, it's all legal. But it's a sub-optimal contribution from Lindows.com, when an optimal contribution would cost them zero extra.
Ciaran O'Riordan
Expert in software patents or patent law? Contribute to the ESP wiki!
What ideals require waiting for a free as in beer app? Incredible unwillingness to spend money?
My guess is that you meant free as in speech, which is rather different. Free as in freedom, not free as in cost. Libre, et non gratuit.
Now that is an ideal worth waiting for.
the tendency for people to use the built-in "themes", which were generally rather gaudy, and always immediately obvious when they're used
Two words: Comic Sans.
And this dialog has the Netscape logo.
Lindows will be releasing it under the Mozilla license. And, they've contracted a ex-Netscape employee (Daniel Glazman) to be the lead developer.
Read here for more and past information:
Lindows.com Announces Mozilla-Based Nvu...
Lindows.com Contracts Daniel Glazman to Develop...
Daniel Glazman Starting Company to Develop Composer
I did something for someone in FP (as they had to add content to it later) with a little PHP and it looks OK (it was a job for a friend, and not my normal line of work). If I'd have done it in HTML and PHP, it would have looked better, but they'd have turned it into an awful mess in no time.
As for a bit more HTML overhead, sure, it's not good, but a few hundred bytes or ever a couple of K on a website doesn't make that much difference. Not justifying it, just saying it ain't that important.
http://www.screem.org
I've been using it for a while and it's good/open source.
I especially like the inline tagging (If you type <body then a popup with all the options for a body tag appear and if you type </ then it automatically fills out the rest of the end tag.)
An Unknown Error has Occurred!
Isnt this basically what Netscape did too?
I'm working on a real big Windows to Linux migration and our biggest headache is Dreamweaver.
:)
Hoping BADLY that Nvu fulfills the promise.
Cesar Cardoso can be found at cesar at zyakannazio dot eti dot br (or at least I believe so)
Efficiency in terms of speed of production it is fine in. Presentation is what I was referring to with that comment. It wasn't meant to be as sweeping as it may have sounded. I'm not saying nothing good can come from Frontpage, but Frontpage attracts a lot of first time web page creators or people who are just looking to churn out a quick page for something, and the majority of those pages tend to be pretty bad from a presentation stand point for obvious reasons. You don't have as many novices or quick fix types messing around with tools like Dreamweaver although it happens.
As for the extraneous markup (and recent versions of FP may have improved upon this), you are right in most cases it won't make a difference, I just don't really like having extraneous information in HTML if I'm going to bother writing it, and every little bit helps if you're dealing with dial-up customers.
- b
Hey, would you mind dropping me an email? Right now, I need something like Nvu, and would be willing to donate some time to make it happen (if this project can accept community involvement, you've got some right here). My email is m dot pedersen at icelus dot org.
GPL made simple: What was my stuff is now our stuff. If you improve our stuff, please keep it our stuff.
Previous maintainer had uploaded a copy of the union contract over three separateHTML pages, each of them 1.25 megs (thank you ever so much, MS Word!). I went in, and hand made the HTML page to contain the exact same information, but with a helluva lot less tags. The whole contract was a measly 103K (as opposed to 3.75M).
An extra K or two? Sure, go for it! What happens when it's generating an extra 3.61M of tags? For people on dial-up, that pretty badly sucks, I think.
GPL made simple: What was my stuff is now our stuff. If you improve our stuff, please keep it our stuff.
When creating a new web design app, the phrase "like Frontpage" should never be used.
-------
"In times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
-- George Orwell
What I don't like about FrontPage is all the extra information it keeps in a "web", specifically all the "_" root folders. Maybe they are indices or support for link-tracking, but they add bulk to the local copy of a web site, even though they are not transferred to the live web server when publishing.
So, when I say I'd like a FrontPage-type tool for Linux, I don't mean that I want to use FrontPage extensions on a server. I mean:
- Management of a site, not just a single page;
- If you move or rename a page, it should check for and modify links to that page;
- Checking for broken links and orphaned pages;
- A keyboard-friendly WYSIWIG editor. Sometimes I want to play with HTML tags, but I'm usually creating readable content;
- Friendly management of stylesheets would be nice, even scripts, if that's your thing. (Personally, even rollovers are annoying and I refuse to use any scripting on my site, for compatibility reasons also.)
In short, anything that helps with the creation and management of content-based sites, on Linux, is what I hope Nvu will help me do. If the Nvu site is telling the truth, it looks like exactly what I'm after.(this is not a
but the words "Duke Nuke Em Forever" keeping playing through the back of my mind.
In all seriousness, I know a couple people who aren't ready to make the switch because of a "lack" of office and web authoring programs, and somehting that thinks it can rough up front page or dreamweaver might get a few more people to turn a more serious eye towards Open Source.
So now we just have to hope that it's not vapor- or underachiever-ware.
"Syntax highlighting with support for ColdFusion, XML, PHP, SQL, Python, Perl, DTML - Zope, C++ and HTML, with more to come"
You yours by hand. So do I, with vi. But my father has no desire to do that. I already suggested it and he has no desire to do it low-level. Apparently he now thinks that it is a bad idea.
What hard core tech ppl will do, many common folks will not. Personally, I use my father, a neighbor, and several friends as judges of what users will and will not accept on Linux distros. It has been interesting to see that they like Linux as a whole. One of the bigger problem is when I say "open a konsole" or a "open a terminal" or "open webmin" or "open an editor". The second that these folks go low-level, they hate it.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
It allows novices to easily create (generally bad) web content.
Last I looked, most web content fell into two categories:
a) generally bad
b) specifically bad
Seriously, FP is just a tool. It's only as good as the designer using it.
-- $G
The thing is just a rerelease of mozilla composer man.
I love Mozilla composer (now called "editor"). Anything that builds on it or makes it better is fine by me.
Have you got your LWN subscription yet?
but you are wrong
we *ARE* niggers, bitchass. and we're fucking homos
--penisbird
somebody comes along and edits your page using something else. Then you've got a pile of yuck, and you have to start using one too. But that's the price of collaboration.
I predict Longhorn comes out before Lindows, anyway.
Manipulate the moderator system! Mod someone as "overrated" today.
Actually, thats a bit incorrect. The code that Frontpage produces is a mess, no matter how good the designer is using it.
The world moves for love. It kneels before it in awe.
"Michael Robertson, the Lindows founder, has announced in his 'Michael's Minute' newsletter that Lindows has started the creation of a Frontpage-type program for Linux, called Nvu."
And of course this Lindows guy is so much known for helping out the OSS community by supporting the developement of new, industry strength OSS components, other than, let's say, RedHat or SuSE who do nothing but mostly ripp off OSS projects, make them insecure by completely mangleing their intended setups and looks of them and giving them a public-awareness compliant 'flashy' name. And then issueing new-media-troll press-releases.
Errr... wait a minute...
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
...unfortunately for all of you, I'll try. ;)
;) ) or my XBox/PS2 for games any time soon, either.
I agree with the overall sentiment posted above concerning GoLive (and the fallout that other WYSIWYG editors receive by proxy). And as Adobe has adopted to make PHP a third party modular add-on, I think I won't be updating GoLive again. So, no arguments from me there...
What I find truly ironic is the inclusion of FrontPage as a sales pitch. Jesus, Frontpage?!? egads... I've always found FrontPage to be just about the clunkiest P.O.S. around. I know, I know... FrontPage means FrontPage extensions and god knows how much we need those (like more holes in our heads). But then again, think about it... it makes sense.
If claiming marketshare is the point, then that comparison is a great tool to pull part time web jockeys and designers (note: not developers) into the Linux fold. Sure, you can code in vi, emacs or pico... but John in accounting may not. Now... we can tempt him with OpenOffice + NVU as an (approaching) respectable MS Office replacement.
However, as long as Photoshop/ImageReady, Flash, Fireworks, etc... remain only Mac/Windows products, don't expect Web developers to jump ship from their current platform.
As far as it all goes, I'll probably not replace my Dreamweaver on the desktop and pico during ssh sessions anytime soon... Just like I'll probably not be replacing my Windows box for studio work, my Mac as my Linux box (now that iTunes hit windows, I don't really need to bugger my old G4 400 down w/ OS X anymore...
Ugh, all those words. Need coffee now.
#SickNotWeak
Wouldn't that make it a perfect drop-in replacement for Frontpage?
"The words of the prophets are written on the Slashdot walls."
I might be repeating someone, but I couldnt find any mentions to this while skimming the discussion. A much needed feature in web authoring environments is integrated FTP. I still use HTMLKit, a big, bloated, ugly piece of crippleware because of that.
A regular HTML editor like Homesite or Editplus, whats a equivalent for that program on Linux?
The biggest reason I think FrontPage is so widely disliked is the tendency for people to use the built-in "themes"
No. The biggest reason it is so widely disliked is that it produces really crappy, bloated html. You might think that doesn't matter since the end user isn't looking at the ugly code but at the (usually ugly) page. Who cares about the ugly code as long as it works, right? I suppose thats true if you make the page once and then leave it alone. The problem is when you go back in and are using Frontpage to constantly change and maintain the page. When you delete an element it doesn't always delete all the funky tags around it, things start getting *really* ugly with the page all loaded up with bits of old html that (hopefully!) aren't doing anything. Eventually something breaks, weird things start to happen and Frontpage loses track of the crap it has created and even someone who knows html can't fix it because it's such a massive screwed up mess.
I agree that there's no reason that there can't be a decent WYSIWYG editor, FrontPage just isn't it. DreamWeaver creates nice code but it's a pro tool with a much steeper learning curve.
As for handwritten code - well, no canned solution will ever have the flexibility that you have if you do it yourself. There are plenty of text editors that will write the tags for you much like (and just as efficient as) the WYSIWYG tools. The main difference is that you are looking at the source rather than at the rendered page - for someone who does know html it really is better (more flexible & powerful) and often more efficient than a "user-friendly" tool. When I use DreamWeaver I use it the opposite of how they intended - instead of using the WYSIWIG tool and occasionally using the text editor, I use the text editor and occasionally use the WYSIWIG tool (it can be nice for quickly creating roll overs & such).
1. Take a successful comercial product
2. Try to rewrite it from the ground up with an open source license
3. Announce this on slashdot
4. Get a lot of kudos
5. ???
6. Profit
I disagree that it is trivial, but I do agree that it isn't that bad. Frontpage may contain much suckage but it does manage a site (as long as only one person does the updates). Where it falls down is when more than one person is updating the site.
See my journal, I write things there
Nvu was started from the Mozilla Composer code base. As you may have heard, the Mozilla Internet suite is in the process of being broken up into individual pieces (browser, email, etc.). Nvu will pick up where Composer left off, adding additional features, functionality and ease of use.
Lindows.com is pleased to have been able to contract with Daniel Glazman from Disruptive Innovations to be the lead developer and maintainer for the Nvu project.
To develop a 'boring' system like an accounting system, especially a full featured, stable one with things like tax table updates and all that other stuff is what people do when they get paid to do it. If I remember right, a while ago there was a thread on /. about Gnucash not having any interest from developers anymore besides the core one or two. Imagine what it would be like getting a bunch of people to write a system 10x more complicated, with little chance of getting any renumeration for it... Writing Linux code is 'cool' because you're striking a blow for freedom. Writing Gimp is cool because who doesn't like nifty graphics? Writing stuff for OpenOffice is cool because, again, you're striking a blow for freedom. Spending 3 years full time writing a full fledged accounting system so you can give it away is cool why?
If I spent that amount of time to do something, I'd like to get paid for it.
For those of you who say that a company could fund it and give it away, I ask... Why should they?
Hell, there are no rules here. We're trying to accomplish something. - Thomas Edison
I'm still using Claris Home Page 3.0 after 5 years as a web master. Its consistent, switches easily to text and intergrates well with FileMaker for the web. I know I'm behind the times but why change a good thing. I wish FileMaker/Claris was still supporting Home Page, a new version with style sheets and PHP and/or JavaScript would be nice. One can only dream.
I've been wanting a good WYSIWYG html editor for Linux. However, on the NVU site their "screenshots" link has only one screenshot. But it looks promising!
The code that Frontpage produces is a mess, no matter how good the designer is using it.
No. FP can be set to make "non-messy" code.
Take a look at my website--specifically one of the second-level pages. http://www.castlesteelstone.us/opengaming.htm for example.
The HTML isn't the best in the world, but it's hardly a "mess"--and it was done in Frontpage.
Considering that nearly every lindows branded app is really just a rebranded opensource project, I wonder which opensource project they are going to rip off for this.
Sounds like its mozilla based.. anyone know of an opensource project that is mozilla based that does this?
Appgen is history.
Are you using MyBooks?
If so, you are now stuck. That's the possibility, and in this case, the effect, of using proprietary applications rather than foss.
And before the trolls come out, foss companies can also fail, but you get the source, and you, or a programmer you hire, or the rest of the community, can keep the software working.
Just as the developers who paid $2000 for the sdk up to a week or less before the web site went 404.
Check Newforge archives (reports) a week or two ago for the full story.
I know "Hallelujah Brother" isn't much of a comment but that's what I really want to say. Composer is off to an excellent start. Having more people contribute to it and make it better is awesome.
Sigs are for people who started using the net _after_ '86.
Sorry, but the name sucks! "Nvu?" Again, I have to complain about a ridiculous name for an OSS project. Why does this keep happening? Is there a sworn policy against normal, sane names in favor of awful-looking, unpronouncable in-jokes from the developers?
"I use Frontpage 2003!"
"I use...in-voo...nuh-voo...en-vee-you...fuck it, just trust me."
I don't know. I've always thought of mozilla as "Frontpage for linux". In fact, I've found it to be superior in ways to Frontpage for Windows, for reasons such as greater stability, better standards compliance (Remember that IE's "standards" aren't even consistent between versions), smaller code, and infinitely better price. I did some commercial work with it a couple years back, and found it to be fine for intranet pages, and I haven't done a personal website in ages without it.
It's been a long time.
Sorry, but I have to throw my two cents in here. I've been helping my Dad work out a web site for the union he's in (I love him to death, but damn... how hard is it to make a freaking tag?)
Just take it over, it sounds like it wouldn't be a hard side project, and a union should have no problem paying someone for their skilled labor.
There is a Knoppix-derived LiveCD version of SQL-Ledger. Although it seems to be default German, you might be able to boot it into English with the 'knoppix lang=en' boot option. http://www.knoppix.net/docs/index.php/KnoppixCusto mizations
Look for it here:
Maybe Lindows should invest their time creating wizards for every little thing you can do on their system. Then they can be exactly like Windows.
to hear someone use a sentence that compares frontpage and dreamweaver as though the two products were even close to the same level. If you are rivaling frontpage, than you are not rivaling dreamweaver. If you are rivaling dreamweaver, then don't compare your product to frontpage.
It's like the gimp crew putting out that the gimp is like microsoft paint.
Besides, these things are already out there. I think that the best one that I found was Bluefish. It doesn't rival dremveaver, but it blows frontpage out of the water.
[from sourceforge] Bluefish is a powerful editor for experienced web designers and programmers. Bluefish supports many programming and markup languages, but it focuses on editing dynamic and interactive websites.
George II -- Spreading Freedom and American values, one bomb at a time.
/usr/bin/vi
That's "Mr. Soulless Automaton" to you, Bub.
Well, I can imagine that it would be fine to use "like Frontpage" in the context of "this app with run, look, feel, behave, and function nothing like Frontpage".
I highly recommend using "like Frontpage" all over the place if he's using it that way.
"Linux doesn't exist. Everyone knows Linux is an unlicensed version of Unix"- Kieren O'Shaughnessy
...one of the things I greatly admire about Linux is that it does *not* have a FrontPage clone. Creating one would be a case of *subtracting* value from the base product. :-P
M$ zealot..
You should try the patch next time you try to quit sucking bill's cock.
We have 60 employees. More than half are engineers, but we DO have business, marketing, sales, accounting, HR, etc. people working here as well...all dedicated to one thing...Bringing Desktop Linux to the masses. These non-technical employees enjoy using Linux on their computers, but they too would like to be able to create web pages WITHOUT having to become a full-time programmer. Our intentions with Nvu are very simple: - Create a very easy-to-use web authoring SYSTEM (not just an "HTML editor" but a SYSTEM for managing the site easily as well) for NON-technical people. For Linux to thrive on the desktop, it needs solid, easy-to-use products for USERS not just Engineers (web browsers, email clients, office suites, and yes...web authoring systems). - Keep the product 100% open source. We used the MPL because we're based on Mozilla code. We are HAPPY to see anyone use the Nvu code in ANY way they like. There are absolutely no strings attached to our contribution to Nvu. We just want to see this "hole" in desktop Linux filled. - We're thrilled to be paying Daniel Glazman (lead contributor for Composer) so that he can focus full energy on Nvu. Composer was in real danger of being orphaned and left behind with the current breaking up of the Mozilla suite, and all the main focus going to the web browser and email client. We didn't want that to happen! - We are contributing SERIOUS money, servers, bandwidth, engineering resources, code, marketing, and so on to see this project through to not only the end, but on an on-going basis. Where would Mozilla be without AOL's past sponsorship (via both Netscape code and $$$)? Where would OpenOffice be without Sun's funds and sponsorship? Open source is great, but it's even better when it can be fueled with funds with no strings attached. Nvu is just one of MANY open source projects we here at Lindows.com fund and support: http://lindows.com/opensource We want to see DESKTOP Linux thrive. That's our soul goal. Thanks, Kevin Carmony President, Lindows.com
Actually, thats a bit incorrect. The code that Frontpage produces is a mess, no matter how good the designer is using it.
This reminds me of arguments from back in the day about generated assembler vs. hand written assembler. Regardless, FP doesn't generate that bad of HTML - often it contains a lot of nbsp and font= that are unnecessary, but overall, it isn't that bad. You can usually carve more bandwidth from resampling graphics than you can by reducing 400 bytes of text anyway.
-- $G
At least you can read the HTML code Composer generates. Frontpage, to Microsoft's credit, generates somewhat readable/servicable HTML code, as long as you know CSS (and VB/VBS if you have the misfortune of some Microsoft junkie shoving it in... like I do sometimes).
Word, on the other hand, generates the worst HTML I have ever seen. Some of the code I've generated with it (because of a corporate mandate, mind you) had both a style sheet and font assigned to every character. My attempt to edit it to fix a typo with vi failed utterly because I couldn't find the word amidst all the garbage. This file was ~512k and basically 3 pages of text. I copied the text and recreated it in Mozilla composer - and got a whopping 25k file.
For a time, I had been using FrontPage to manage a very large web site. When I lost the ability to use FrontPage, I was forced to convert it all by hand back to legible handtyped HTML. Let me tell you, it was a messy and arduous task. Though I was successful in doing it, it didn't stop me from going out and getting Dreamweaver MX to manage the site.
The other thing I dislike about FrontPage is the ease by which people can add annoying widgets to their web pages. Scrolling marquees, flashing text, all are things to be avoided by professional web designers. But FrontPage puts them all right out in the open as if they are expected features. Not only are they shunned, but Microsoft's implementation of them only solidifies the dominance of Microsoft's Internet Explorer and pseudo-HTML nonsense.
I can understand wanting to improve an existing project like Mozilla Composer to be more user friendly but why didn't they choose Amaya, which is more devloped and usefull than Composer, as the base for this.
.FDB and .MDB) although I doubt serious designers are using the FP DB wizard.
Honestly all Amaya would need is an ECMAScript implementation, FTP, and cleaned up a bit to be really competitive. It already supports SVG and the OpnGL version supports Animated SVG.
Then again if you really want to compete with FP then it would need an ASP/PHP Editor (MSE is part of FP 2002 and higher), and a database wizard (FP 2000 and higher uses the
As an aside, have you ever seen the HTML that WordPerfect 10/11 puts out? I was very pleasantly surprised. Especially after seeing what a royal mess Word creates. It inserted just the tags that it needed to get the job done. I was doing a simple test though, I wonder if I had images and tables in the document how it would hold up. Anyway, I found it ironic that WordPerfect was putting out cleaner, more modern code than GoLive.
You bring up a good point with the marketshare issue. I've never maintained that Linux was for everyone. I have always felt that was something that the community shouldn't chase, but every day it seems to be getting not only more acceptable for an average user, but actually getting to average users desks. That's great. I never would have thought it possible, and in the event that it does become an alternative as popular as at least Apple, the need for a good office suite / web page production combination is good. The web developers will know of, and use, the better tools available, so having these easier tools in no way hurts Linux as a whole (a general philosophy that I am coming to accept.)
I really should sit down with Dreamweaver and give it a solid rundown one of these days. I know a lot of competent designers who swear by it. I know that tainting my view of all front ends with GoLive is not the wisest thing to do. Perhaps one day I'll be a sworn in front end user as well. For now I'll stick with what I am used to though, as you said. No need to replace things with other things when they already work just fine for you.
Here's to coffee!
What's rediculous about it? Entire civilizations have been built around it. Socialist, communist, democracy, doesn't matter, it applies to them all.
And we would all be nomads if it wasn't true.
So it's OK for Mr Smith to ask for help, designing his web page. It's OK for the secretary to ask for help from either the IT, or help desk. There's no shame in doing so.
One thing I've noticed about most of those elite pricks who praise simple text-editors as the "only" way to do HTML is that their websites are usually OSS or bio sites that have no color schemes (just black text on white background), one or two pages, no tables, and a few links scattered around. Mostly, their content is just paragraphs of text, and as a whole, the site is very generic and ugly. Have you seen www.gnu.org? People's obsession with simplicity and non-bloat (no doubt stemming from their obsessive Microsoft hatred) have made them produce sites that are uglier than crusted dog shit. For the most part, programmers and hackers are not good artistic designers, and it shows, and I think that's why it's taken so long for us to get a visual tool like this--the stupid "l33t" attitudes have kept it away.
If you're doing a heavy graphics-intensive site for a professional company in which things need to be perfectly aligned, graphics need to match, and you're using a visual template you created for all 20 of your pages, you'd be a complete idiot to continue your elite attitude about a freakin' text editor.
Sometimes, the immature attitudes I see in this community amaze me. No professionalism at all...is it also bad to use visual editors when you design GTK or QT dialogs? When you're drawing pictures in GIMP (real people write those pixels using assembly routines)? Should OpenOffice not show you its formatting visually, instead just giving you its internal formatting codes and letting you have at it?
I don't get the animosity towards WYSIWYG HTML editors when the philosophy is embraced everywhere else. Why are HTML editors the target for that misinformed attitude? It's not like HTML is l33t knowledge that deserves an award or anything. And all the visual editors let you edit the code directly anyway. "I use vim!" I don't really care. Give me a tool that lets me do more than freakin' ugly www.gnu.org without wasting time wading through code when I could be--heaven forbid--designing visually.
Since Lindows is Linux afterall, this new composer should work just fine for all distributions.
No matter how many of my rights are taken away, somehow I still don't feel safe. -Frigid Monkey
Yes, and the most important thing that people forget is that the point of communications is to get an idea from one mind to another in an accurate and efficient manner as possible. A lot of your "TV dinner" sites fail that goal. Hell even the pros have difficulty (just look at the Newsforge site).
One of these days we'll realize that reaching the goal isn't the only important thing. But setting the goal just beyound our grasp is as important. So that when we do reach it, we'll be a bit higher than when we started.
You can't edit in WYSIWYG mode with Quanta. That's the whole idea of Nvu, to make it EASY to edit a web page with NO HTML knowledge. Quanta is fine for HTML programmers, but my secretary wouldn't have a clue how to use it, but she can use Nvu. Kevin
I went to the initial Frontpage preview event. Per that, originally FP was meant as a site MANAGEMENT tool, not as an editor per se; the editor part kinda got shoveled in as an afterthought.
And it did make embarrassingly bad HTML for a long time, but the last two versions have gotten MUCH better; FP2002 is mostly fairly nice, and no longer "rude" in how it handles existing files.
But I still went back to old AOLpress, which (whether you use it in raw or WYSIWYG mode) makes THE cleanest HTML I've ever seen. I wish AOL would release AOLpress' source... it needs some work and a general update, but the basic program is very sound.
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
Word, on the other hand, generates the worst HTML I have ever seen.
Yep. To ensure "round tripping" of documents, MS created proprietary tags to include all of the Office document information that isn't part of HTML (such as page breaks, section info, etc.)
If you're using office 2000, there is a downloadable tool that will generate "cleaner" HTML--and, AFAIK, both XP and 2003 have similar options.
You've just given me a thought. Some companies may elect to NOT port their program over to Linux. But they may make their existing code WINE friendly.
Kind of a way to have one's cake, and eat it too.
*chuckle*
Well that's why I said a bit of this, and a bit of that. Besides XHTML isn't the only thing an aspiring web author needs to know. MathML, SVG, SMIL, etc. The Web is growing up. IMHO I think that tools like Quanta, Screem, etc are the best compromise. An ease-of-use that doesn't protect an author from the things he needs to know, while giving him the kick to the memory needed, and imposing the discipline the web sorely lacks. SodiPodi is important for the SVG part.
BTW WebDraw appears to be a good program for those getting into SVG. Shame it's only windows.
BTW-II Don't forget the server-side technologies. One can do some impressive things. Throw in XUL and LOOK OUT!.
Whay not use Quanta Plus or enhance it to be able to replace FrontPage/Dreamweaver MX ? The basics in QP are there, it just needs added tools to handle scripting better and be able to use new standards like XML and XML namespaces and should be automaically able to create a document based on a set of standards.
True for FP prior to FP2000, but I guess they got tired of being the laughingstock of the online world, because FP2000 and later makes reasonably clean, tolerably readable code. Better than the mess Dreamweaver now makes, for sure -- when I went to clean up the last page I worked on in DW (4 and MX), I was soon ready to kill Macromedia's developers. Slowly. With a dull fork.
Back to M$... VisualStudio.NET, that's another beast -- that makes about the ugliest HTML under the hood I'd seen in years.
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
Yeah, but no Mac version since May and no source. Sucks.
"He who would learn astronomy, and other recondite arts, let him go elsewhere. " -- John Calvin, commenting on Genesis 1
Why does Microsoft get so many chances to get it right? You say that Frontpage is improved, but what it is improved from is a long line of utter trash. I will admit that I have not tried every version of Frontpage, but after Frontpage 97 I have a good excuse. The sheer idiot persistance in that program for forcing out of order nested tags was atrocious. The kind of incompetance required to produce an HTML editing program that produces such obviously broken HTML is mind-boggling. I have decided to attribute this to incompetance. It might not be incompetance, but rather malice. It might have been done to intentionally break pages when being viewed with a non-microsoft web-browser. But, in the interest of being fair to Microsoft, I will only claim that they are incompetant dribbling morons. I am very sad to see the way that they can turn out this slop and have people keep buying their product until they finally get it right when there are others who do get it right the first time.
That's way (X)Emacs is around here: both text (through html-mode) *and* wysiwyg (through w3m-mode) html editor.
Less is more !
...and communication with the web server, it will demonstrate that they don't have a clue.
Unencrypted communication/uploads/downloads/syncing is something that we expect from microsoft/frontpage. Not Gnu/linux.
I swore by handcoding until Dreamweaver hit the scenes.
I've been doing websites since 1995 and work on graphically 'enhanced' websites mainly - good solid design with medium graphic usage.
It's got easier as time goes on - apps like dreamweaver have made it easier.
The HTML code is virtually 100% clean, depending on the preferences you set. The Wsiwyg view and editing is unrivaled from a simplicity and speed point of view. The learning curve is a little steep, but easily possible.
Put it this way, you can knock out a quick and dirty html as fast as a text document.
A slashdotting - you get the stick first and then the carrot !
listen to youself, you are a pathetic cunt.
This feature to save as only occurs in the newer versions of word. In some of the older versions you could download a little add-on called the Office HTML Filter that accomplished the same thing. It's available at:a milyid=209adbee-3fbd-482c-83b0-96fb79b74ded&displa ylang=en
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?f
Most people would die sooner than think; in fact, they do.
No way, Golive rules!!! w00t!
-That which does not kill me delays the inevitable.
But what will we use to clean the frontpage-generated code?
http://pah.cert.ucr.edu/~bob/shameful.shtml
This example is just one small section from one page. The person who created it was a web-novice, but a computer expert. Even he couldn't get Front Page to produce decent HTML (I don't think anyone can).
LOL, nice link. I can almost feel your frustration.
Look on the bright side, it's a LOT better than the export to HTML feature in MS Publisher. I dealt with a customer one time who was wondering why her pages were loading so slow. Turns out it was producing pages in excess of 1 meg that could all be reduced to something in the neighborhood of 100k. Truly a scary experience.
- b
I hope the HTML of their website isn't an example of NVU output. Even at a casual glance, it's obviously not W3C-compliant. Granted, they don't claim it will be, they merely claim it works with most popular browsers, but to make yet another HTML editor that does not produce W3C-compliant code would be reprehensible. We not only need an open source product like this, we need one that produces 100% W3C-compliant HTML. It's not just the right thing to do, it's a selling point. With it, you can claim that NVU isn't just better because it's open source (something some people would argue with) but that it's better because it produces the best output.
If a solution is open source and available at no charge, some people will use it because it's free, whether or not it produces the best output (if they even know what W3C-compliance is; a lot of people who are into WYIWYG either don't know or don't care (IMO)), and some will opt for a proprietary product, even if expensive, if that's the one that does the best job. If you can point to a product and say "Not only is it open source and available at no charge, it also produces the best HTML" then you can really hook people.
clicking on "order" takes me to drkoop.com. Not a good sign...
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
that in this economy I can't get away with paying a secretary _with_ accouting skills $25000/yr? Actually, I'm a wage slave, and I don't like the situation any better than any other wage slave. But facts are facts. With more and more jobs going overseas the U.S.A. is heading for second world country status (i.e. lots of very rich, a few getting along, and tens of millions of hopelessly poor). Now if something gets done about the flow of labor overseas, businesses won't get away with this. Then again if the cost of a good secretary with an accounting background goes up, won't the same be said for a CPA?
That said, you make a good point about average computer users being afraid of what you or I would consider illrelavent. But I question your asusumption that Microsoft will still save you money. Just ask Ernie Ball (look him up on google if you haven't heard the story). My point is, with the release of longhorn and all the nasty things that go along with it, businesses will be trying to jump the Microsoft ship whether their secretaries like it or not. So in the short run, yes, I'll lose money. But I'll make it back by not paying subscription fees and not buying new hardware every time Microsoft feels it's time for a new product cycle. Besides, it's kinda nice not worrying about the BSA.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
Huh? I just created a form last night using Composer that has radio buttons and fields for user input. I'm brand new to making forms, so I might be missing something. What elements are you talking about?
Have you hugged your penguin today?
But it won't be Frontpage! It won't support Frontpage extensions. What good will it be?
finally a wysiwyg editor for linux :) perhaps the time has now come to abuse IE like frontpage does with mozilla :D
I can't wait to make my first mozilla-only web site with it ;)
...in comparison with FrontPage, is that in Frontpage when you switch between HTML Source and WYSIWYG views, the state of selection is preserved and the scrolled viewport is positioned to show the selected fragment. Mozilla Composer loses selection and goes to the beginning of document whenever you switch views.
So in Frontpage you can select a link or an image, switch to HTML source and check their HTML representation instantly. Then in HTML source view you can select a fragment of HTML code and switch to WYSIWYG view - you'll have the object corresponding to selected source preselected.
you could get all the benefits of that fiscal responsibilty at a fraction of the costs by writing accounting software easy enough for a secretary and including a powerful backend for CPAs that allowed them to quickly audit the secretary's work. Have your secretary do the day to day data entry, then once a month your CPA looks over the books and fixes mistakes. Heck, outsource the audit to India (hospitals do it for X-Rays, which has at least as much liability involved) and you get all the benefits of a pro CPA without the costs.
Ok, not all the benefits, but business is about calculated risk. A part time accountant at $200/hr gets $208,000/yr. That kinda money would buy a lot of advertising for a 100 man operation. Heck, if you do have a problem, a few years of that kinda money and you could hire a lawyer good enough to get you out of almost anything.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/