So out of curiosity from someone else who is motivated to do some country shopping, where did you go? Comparing the Japanese and US social services is depressing; I seriously tried to fit into that box, living and working there for several years, but as a honkey gaijin with an independent cuss of a honkey wife (whom I love dearly), good ol' Nihon just wasn't it, despite all the positives. (And yes, we both speak Japanese, so linguistic issues weren't really the problem so much as the social scene and incompatible cultural attitudes.)
So spill, where'd you go, and how does it stack up to the US in other areas aside from health care?:)
Not to condone obesity or bad lifestyle decisions, but seriously, have you spent much time reading ingredient labels in the US? The number of items that have high-fructose corn syrup (HFCS) added to them are simply staggering. It's actual work to try to avoid HFCS. So simply saying, no one forces them to eat corn syrup, is somewhat disingenuous. Sure, no one's holding a gun to their heads and handing them a bucket of HFCS and a spoon, but it's not immediately easy to get away from the stuff, either.
(My wife has a form of systemic candidiasis compounded by hypoglycemia and a family history of diabetes. She's tiny to begin with at only 4'10", but once we discovered that her real issue was sugar / HFCS related and started really clamping down on our intake, she lost 30 lbs in a month -- and also became the bitch from hell for the first few weeks while going through what was effectively withdrawal. Getting away from HFCS and excessive added sugars helped immensely, but it was no easy matter. We read ingredients labels before buying anything these days, also avoiding any added yeast [which is also in a heck of a lot where you wouldn't expect it], and our shopping habits have changed quite a bit.)
You're currently modded "Funny", so maybe I'm just being dense, but methinks you're confused about what's being compared here. Sure, the Wii is cheaper than the PS3 -- priced now at Toys R Us online at $367.95 vs. $399.99 (ignoring for now that the Wii is bundled with an extra controller and a game, whereas the PS3 just comes with a single controller and no game) -- but the GP poster's comment compares the Wii with the PS2 -- which is $367.95 vs. $129.99 -- making the Wii over twice as spendy as the PS2. So the Wii beating out the PS2's total sales record will be all the more impressive.:)
The name of the plaintiff is oddly appropriate. Just reading the first couple of pages of the decision really makes me just shake my head. Some people...
Hey there, Blakey. I appreciated your post, it helps immensely in explaining where the heck the ribbon came from -- which is quite the question otherwise.:) That said:
Microsoft does do usability testing, you know.
Oh, I don't deny that. But I do happen to think that they've got so many basic assumptions already in place before they do their testing that the results are of limited relevance in the real world. One clear assumption in their ribbon design -- screen sizes. MS apparently thought that everyone has big screens. If you've got a small monitor, the unchangeably huge size of the ribbon crowds the screen and reduces your effective working area. Not very smart. Another assumption -- that folks don't mind losing all the time they put into learning the old UI (which also happens to be standard to all other non-MSO-2007 apps).
Their testing obviously shows that the ribbon is superior or they wouldn't have implemented it.
Perhaps you're stretching the point a bit -- it remains non-obvious to me that the ribbon is superior in any way except size. You could certainly say that their testing obviously convinced *them* that the ribbon is superior.
I think most people who hate the ribbon are simply those "tech-luddites" who use technology, but actually hate change at the same time.
Though admittedly anecdotal, my example was of a school full of teachers and office staff, who use tech to get other things done. They don't take kindly to that tech suddenly changing and making it harder to get those exact same tasks done. Change alone is not disliked -- rather, pointless unannounced change that increases the complexity of previously known processes is disliked, with a passion.
It's weird, but Slashdot is full of the type... why else would vi still exist?
The old adage "if it ain't broke..." comes to mind.:)
Seriously though, for me personally, I'm all about changing things around drastically from time to time. I cycle through different Linux distros every couple years. I've got a couple Macs. I use WinXP. I've got an AlphaGrip keyboard to really mess with my head (and keep RSI at bay). For office suites, I use Lotus Symphony, KOffice, OO.o, and, yes, MSO (though I use 2003 -- won't touch 2007 if I can avoid it). I even change languages, living in Japan and working in Japanese-speaking offices for years and actively studying other languages in my spare time (German, Mori, Mandarin, Ulster Gaelic, Korean, Java... my bookshelves are fun).
The key here though is that all this change *is on my own terms*. *I* choose when to switch interfaces in terms of OSes / apps / keyboards / languages. *I* choose what I'm going to spend my time learning. And I choose not to spend my time learning an inconsistent and confusing system that is effectively being forced on me (making me resent it), and that gets in my way (moving, hiding, and sometimes even completely removing, functionality that I have relied on in the past), and that doesn't come across, to me personally, as useful, intuitive, rewarding, or interesting.
After each version of Office ships, Microsoft asks a selection of users which features they would like to see in the next version of Office.
As nabsltd noted above, menus are pretty standard for all other MS-based software -- except for this ribbon garbage in MSO 2007. Now, while I'm generally a fan of software companies listening to their users, the question MS asked and the answers they were given, funnily enough, had nothing to do with completely reworking the menu UI. So basically MS *wasn't* listening. Had they asked instead, "should we completely rework the menu UI?", I rather suspect that most existing users of pre-2007 MSO (i.e., the vast bulk of the potential market for MSO upgrades) would have replied with a resounding "hell, NO!" in consideration of all the time and energy *already* put into learning where the heck everything is. I mean, sheesh, with MSO 2007, they could have at least offered an easily-findable obvious option to toggle back into the older menu structure.
That's the problem the Ribbon is intended to solve.
But, sadly, it is not the problem the users faced directly, nor is it the solution they wanted. Which is why so many folks are not a fan of paying through the nose for an "upgrade" that offers no appreciable new functionality while simultaneously guaranteeing hours of frustration as users try to find things again. Whee.
Personally, I prefer the Captain Underpants Name Generator for coming up with good aliases. "Bill Gates" becomes "Boobie Appletush", and "Steve Ballmer" becomes "Crusty Applebrain".
Hmm, I think we've discovered that the MS upper echelons are actually working for -- "Crusty Bubblefanny" (Steve Jobs' mild-mannered alter ego)! Clearly, Windows Vista was *designed* to suck in order to boost Apple sales!
Of course, why didn't I see it before? It all makes so much more sense now...
I know you're just trying to troll the GP, but seriously -- who are these mythical "most other people"? The only folks I've run into that claim to like the MSO 2007 ribbon interface are posters here on Slashdot. My wife's previous school had MSO 2007 installed drive-by fashion unannounced and mid-year by their socially-clueless IT guy, and it caused no end of trouble. Suddenly teachers (and sometimes students) would take / email docs home and be unable to open them. Suddenly no one could find where anything was supposed to be, for some of them after *finally* having gotten used to the menus in MSO 2003 through much effort and frustration. Suddenly macros that helped glue the office's processes together stopped working.
Okay, granted, only the second issue above actually has to do with the ribbon UI, so to come back to that, the changeover was hell. Tens of hours per person, possibly more for some folks, that had been spent getting familiar with the old UI was completely undone by MS's ribbon infatuation. What a complete waste of time. And for what? MSO 2007 sure doesn't offer any new functionality. Heck, it breaks more than it innovates. The new UI was annoying as hell for me (still is when I have to use MSO 2007), and I'm a geek. And never mind the myriad frustrating assumptions MS made about who uses what most often when they designed the ribbon. Imagine how beyond-the-pale maddening it must be for users who are dyslexic (my wife, some of her colleagues, some of her students) and have trouble dealing with computers anyway.
Re-read the parent post. What businesses hate isn't customers, it's unprofitable customers. You know, the ones that cost more to provide services to than they bring in in terms of revenue.
Presumably the box and ads would be green, too? Then maybe they could have a color-coded release scheme, instead of the letters and numbers used to date. A green campaign for Windows Verde, followed by a brown campaign for the upgrade to Windows Merde!:D
The real irony in many ways is that Niccolò Macchiavelli was actually very much a republican (as in, one who favors the republic as a form of governance:), but one who understood that the republic can falter. The New Yorker posted an interesting (and long) look at his life last month, which is worth the read for anyone interested. Machiavelli's possibly most well-known work, Il Principe, can indeed come across as archetypically "machiavellian" (as we use the term today), but reading it more closely brings to light advice to would-be rulers that they cannot be callous, ruthless bastards and expect to hold onto their jobs for very long. Some choice quotes, courtesy the linked article:
A prince must have the people on his side, otherwise he will not have support in adverse times.
A prince need not worry unduly about conspiracies when the people are well disposed toward him. But if they are his enemies and hate him, he must fear everything and everybody.
The best fortress for the prince is to be loved by his people.
Ultimately, the current strategy in the US of criminalizing broad swaths of otherwise harmless behaviour and locking up everyone who disagrees with the movers and shakers is pretty far from Machiavelli's advice to would-be rulers, given the mounting discontent this generates. Machiavelli actually comes across a bit as an old-school Taoist (in terms of Lao-zi, not Zhuang-zi) -- keep the people fat, happy, and dumb, and they will be easy to rule. Pissing them off and depriving them of common liberties left and right just isn't a smart move.
I don't know about Thief, but I've been following 2DBoy since first hearing about World of Goo a couple months ago, and they've been very up-front about deliberately avoiding DRM to make things easier for actual end-users. And they've posted on their blog about how happy they've been with the results of opting out of the DRM insanity.
Comment posting history aside, Cliffski's GP post is poorly misinformed at best, and it does seem to lean in the trollish direction...
Fine, yes, NT4 and Win2K are indeed obsolete. You get the cigar.:) This does not change the fact that a number of large corporate computer ecosystems still have these installed. And this does not change the fact that upgrading these would involve giving MS money. And this does not change the fact that many corporate IT departments have put the kibosh on installing Vista. And this does not change the fact that, amidst the current dim economic outlook, many companies are likely loath to part with any more cash, especially for what are apparently perceived as unneeded upgrades.
Which brings us back to your post above, and my underlying response -- there's "should", and there's "is". Sure, perhaps IE6 sites shouldn't be used, but the simple fact is that they still are. And there are reasons for this besides simple inertia.
Let me expand a little. Implicit in my post was the idea that, if a company still has any significant installed base of IE 6, there's probably a reason -- maybe they're still using an older version of Windows for which IE 7 isn't available, say Win2K or even NT4, in which case an upgrade to IE7 would require an upgrade of an awful lot of licenses, and possibly even hardware. The license fees would certainly constitute making money for MS. And given the unfortunate bomb that is Vista, many companies appear to be waiting for the next upgrade cycle before moving on, leaving even less incentive to make any switch now.
Mods, PLEASE, for the love of gravy, stop downmodding posts just because you disagree! This is the epitome of the kind of petty schoolyard BS that is dragging down any attempt at public discourse in the US. MightyYar's post here could conceivably be viewed as inflammatory by those with thin skins, but get real -- this is an off-hand comment intended to be *flippant*, and is (mostly) true to boot -- Sarah Palin is indeed a) running for office, and b) has pushed to have an ex-brother-in-law fired. These are both publicly documented facts, that have even been avowed by Palin herself. Now get over yourselves, and take your cursors off those danged negative mod options!
There are plenty of intranet-only sites that may well be coded for IE 6, and if they work now, why the heck should a company spend the time and money to "update" them to IE 7? There are far more important things to spend the budget on -- like making money for *us* instead of for MS.
Slashdot Mirror
How'd that go again?
up up down down left right left right a b b a start
Yeah, that sounds about right... ;)
Cheers,
Those are the seldom-used initial fourth digit in chmod octal permission arguments:
The article on file permissions can be a pretty useful reference when explaining things to newcomers.
Cheers,
It somehow makes total sense that it's the cat that wakes you up in the morning. Only mine does it by tap-dancing on my head. :)
Cheers,
So out of curiosity from someone else who is motivated to do some country shopping, where did you go? Comparing the Japanese and US social services is depressing; I seriously tried to fit into that box, living and working there for several years, but as a honkey gaijin with an independent cuss of a honkey wife (whom I love dearly), good ol' Nihon just wasn't it, despite all the positives. (And yes, we both speak Japanese, so linguistic issues weren't really the problem so much as the social scene and incompatible cultural attitudes.)
So spill, where'd you go, and how does it stack up to the US in other areas aside from health care? :)
Cheers,
Not to condone obesity or bad lifestyle decisions, but seriously, have you spent much time reading ingredient labels in the US? The number of items that have high-fructose corn syrup (HFCS) added to them are simply staggering. It's actual work to try to avoid HFCS. So simply saying, no one forces them to eat corn syrup, is somewhat disingenuous. Sure, no one's holding a gun to their heads and handing them a bucket of HFCS and a spoon, but it's not immediately easy to get away from the stuff, either.
(My wife has a form of systemic candidiasis compounded by hypoglycemia and a family history of diabetes. She's tiny to begin with at only 4'10", but once we discovered that her real issue was sugar / HFCS related and started really clamping down on our intake, she lost 30 lbs in a month -- and also became the bitch from hell for the first few weeks while going through what was effectively withdrawal. Getting away from HFCS and excessive added sugars helped immensely, but it was no easy matter. We read ingredients labels before buying anything these days, also avoiding any added yeast [which is also in a heck of a lot where you wouldn't expect it], and our shopping habits have changed quite a bit.)
Cheers,
Ah. Naturally. That explains why I heard Stephen Fry's voice in my head as I read that...(*facepalm*)
Cheers,
You're currently modded "Funny", so maybe I'm just being dense, but methinks you're confused about what's being compared here. Sure, the Wii is cheaper than the PS3 -- priced now at Toys R Us online at $367.95 vs. $399.99 (ignoring for now that the Wii is bundled with an extra controller and a game, whereas the PS3 just comes with a single controller and no game) -- but the GP poster's comment compares the Wii with the PS2 -- which is $367.95 vs. $129.99 -- making the Wii over twice as spendy as the PS2. So the Wii beating out the PS2's total sales record will be all the more impressive. :)
Cheers,
The name of the plaintiff is oddly appropriate. Just reading the first couple of pages of the decision really makes me just shake my head. Some people...
Cheers,
Hey there, Blakey. I appreciated your post, it helps immensely in explaining where the heck the ribbon came from -- which is quite the question otherwise. :) That said:
Oh, I don't deny that. But I do happen to think that they've got so many basic assumptions already in place before they do their testing that the results are of limited relevance in the real world. One clear assumption in their ribbon design -- screen sizes. MS apparently thought that everyone has big screens. If you've got a small monitor, the unchangeably huge size of the ribbon crowds the screen and reduces your effective working area. Not very smart. Another assumption -- that folks don't mind losing all the time they put into learning the old UI (which also happens to be standard to all other non-MSO-2007 apps).
Perhaps you're stretching the point a bit -- it remains non-obvious to me that the ribbon is superior in any way except size. You could certainly say that their testing obviously convinced *them* that the ribbon is superior.
Though admittedly anecdotal, my example was of a school full of teachers and office staff, who use tech to get other things done. They don't take kindly to that tech suddenly changing and making it harder to get those exact same tasks done. Change alone is not disliked -- rather, pointless unannounced change that increases the complexity of previously known processes is disliked, with a passion.
The old adage "if it ain't broke..." comes to mind. :)
Seriously though, for me personally, I'm all about changing things around drastically from time to time. I cycle through different Linux distros every couple years. I've got a couple Macs. I use WinXP. I've got an AlphaGrip keyboard to really mess with my head (and keep RSI at bay). For office suites, I use Lotus Symphony, KOffice, OO.o, and, yes, MSO (though I use 2003 -- won't touch 2007 if I can avoid it). I even change languages, living in Japan and working in Japanese-speaking offices for years and actively studying other languages in my spare time (German, Mori, Mandarin, Ulster Gaelic, Korean, Java... my bookshelves are fun).
The key here though is that all this change *is on my own terms*. *I* choose when to switch interfaces in terms of OSes / apps / keyboards / languages. *I* choose what I'm going to spend my time learning. And I choose not to spend my time learning an inconsistent and confusing system that is effectively being forced on me (making me resent it), and that gets in my way (moving, hiding, and sometimes even completely removing, functionality that I have relied on in the past), and that doesn't come across, to me personally, as useful, intuitive, rewarding, or interesting.
Cheers,
As nabsltd noted above, menus are pretty standard for all other MS-based software -- except for this ribbon garbage in MSO 2007. Now, while I'm generally a fan of software companies listening to their users, the question MS asked and the answers they were given, funnily enough, had nothing to do with completely reworking the menu UI. So basically MS *wasn't* listening. Had they asked instead, "should we completely rework the menu UI?", I rather suspect that most existing users of pre-2007 MSO (i.e., the vast bulk of the potential market for MSO upgrades) would have replied with a resounding "hell, NO!" in consideration of all the time and energy *already* put into learning where the heck everything is. I mean, sheesh, with MSO 2007, they could have at least offered an easily-findable obvious option to toggle back into the older menu structure.
But, sadly, it is not the problem the users faced directly, nor is it the solution they wanted. Which is why so many folks are not a fan of paying through the nose for an "upgrade" that offers no appreciable new functionality while simultaneously guaranteeing hours of frustration as users try to find things again. Whee.
Cheers,
Personally, I prefer the Captain Underpants Name Generator for coming up with good aliases. "Bill Gates" becomes "Boobie Appletush", and "Steve Ballmer" becomes "Crusty Applebrain".
Hmm, I think we've discovered that the MS upper echelons are actually working for -- "Crusty Bubblefanny" (Steve Jobs' mild-mannered alter ego)! Clearly, Windows Vista was *designed* to suck in order to boost Apple sales!
Of course, why didn't I see it before? It all makes so much more sense now...
:P
Cheers,
I know you're just trying to troll the GP, but seriously -- who are these mythical "most other people"? The only folks I've run into that claim to like the MSO 2007 ribbon interface are posters here on Slashdot. My wife's previous school had MSO 2007 installed drive-by fashion unannounced and mid-year by their socially-clueless IT guy, and it caused no end of trouble. Suddenly teachers (and sometimes students) would take / email docs home and be unable to open them. Suddenly no one could find where anything was supposed to be, for some of them after *finally* having gotten used to the menus in MSO 2003 through much effort and frustration. Suddenly macros that helped glue the office's processes together stopped working.
Okay, granted, only the second issue above actually has to do with the ribbon UI, so to come back to that, the changeover was hell. Tens of hours per person, possibly more for some folks, that had been spent getting familiar with the old UI was completely undone by MS's ribbon infatuation. What a complete waste of time. And for what? MSO 2007 sure doesn't offer any new functionality. Heck, it breaks more than it innovates. The new UI was annoying as hell for me (still is when I have to use MSO 2007), and I'm a geek. And never mind the myriad frustrating assumptions MS made about who uses what most often when they designed the ribbon. Imagine how beyond-the-pale maddening it must be for users who are dyslexic (my wife, some of her colleagues, some of her students) and have trouble dealing with computers anyway.
Cheers,
Maybe I'm just too much of a language geek, but I would definitely have given you a +1 Informative if I had any points right now.
Cheers,
What if you work for yourself?
Cheers,
Re-read the parent post. What businesses hate isn't customers, it's unprofitable customers. You know, the ones that cost more to provide services to than they bring in in terms of revenue.
Cheers,
I'm curious, did you need to do a full reboot (like for a kernel upgrade), or did you just need to log out and back in, or maybe restart X?
Cheers,
Presumably the box and ads would be green, too? Then maybe they could have a color-coded release scheme, instead of the letters and numbers used to date. A green campaign for Windows Verde, followed by a brown campaign for the upgrade to Windows Merde! :D
Cheers,
The real irony in many ways is that Niccolò Macchiavelli was actually very much a republican (as in, one who favors the republic as a form of governance :), but one who understood that the republic can falter. The New Yorker posted an interesting (and long) look at his life last month, which is worth the read for anyone interested. Machiavelli's possibly most well-known work, Il Principe , can indeed come across as archetypically "machiavellian" (as we use the term today), but reading it more closely brings to light advice to would-be rulers that they cannot be callous, ruthless bastards and expect to hold onto their jobs for very long. Some choice quotes, courtesy the linked article:
Ultimately, the current strategy in the US of criminalizing broad swaths of otherwise harmless behaviour and locking up everyone who disagrees with the movers and shakers is pretty far from Machiavelli's advice to would-be rulers, given the mounting discontent this generates. Machiavelli actually comes across a bit as an old-school Taoist (in terms of Lao-zi, not Zhuang-zi) -- keep the people fat, happy, and dumb, and they will be easy to rule. Pissing them off and depriving them of common liberties left and right just isn't a smart move.
Cheers,
I don't know about Thief, but I've been following 2DBoy since first hearing about World of Goo a couple months ago, and they've been very up-front about deliberately avoiding DRM to make things easier for actual end-users. And they've posted on their blog about how happy they've been with the results of opting out of the DRM insanity.
Comment posting history aside, Cliffski's GP post is poorly misinformed at best, and it does seem to lean in the trollish direction...
Cheers,
Ditto Cormacus's post -- news (and details) of any non-canned reply by the McCain campaign would be most interesting.
Cheers,
Fine, yes, NT4 and Win2K are indeed obsolete. You get the cigar. :) This does not change the fact that a number of large corporate computer ecosystems still have these installed. And this does not change the fact that upgrading these would involve giving MS money. And this does not change the fact that many corporate IT departments have put the kibosh on installing Vista. And this does not change the fact that, amidst the current dim economic outlook, many companies are likely loath to part with any more cash, especially for what are apparently perceived as unneeded upgrades.
Which brings us back to your post above, and my underlying response -- there's "should", and there's "is". Sure, perhaps IE6 sites shouldn't be used, but the simple fact is that they still are. And there are reasons for this besides simple inertia.
Cheers,
Let me expand a little. Implicit in my post was the idea that, if a company still has any significant installed base of IE 6, there's probably a reason -- maybe they're still using an older version of Windows for which IE 7 isn't available, say Win2K or even NT4, in which case an upgrade to IE7 would require an upgrade of an awful lot of licenses, and possibly even hardware. The license fees would certainly constitute making money for MS. And given the unfortunate bomb that is Vista, many companies appear to be waiting for the next upgrade cycle before moving on, leaving even less incentive to make any switch now.
Cheers,
Shouldn't that be:
"Ethics - A county to the eatht of London" :-)
Cheers,
Mods, PLEASE, for the love of gravy, stop downmodding posts just because you disagree! This is the epitome of the kind of petty schoolyard BS that is dragging down any attempt at public discourse in the US. MightyYar's post here could conceivably be viewed as inflammatory by those with thin skins, but get real -- this is an off-hand comment intended to be *flippant*, and is (mostly) true to boot -- Sarah Palin is indeed a) running for office, and b) has pushed to have an ex-brother-in-law fired. These are both publicly documented facts, that have even been avowed by Palin herself. Now get over yourselves, and take your cursors off those danged negative mod options!
Sheesh. People these days...
Cheers,
"Obsolete" according to whom?
There are plenty of intranet-only sites that may well be coded for IE 6, and if they work now, why the heck should a company spend the time and money to "update" them to IE 7? There are far more important things to spend the budget on -- like making money for *us* instead of for MS.
Cheers,