You misunderstanding of copyright law is unbelievable, and your belief that you need to be a lawyer to know the law is ignorant and deplorable.
So as I sit here and read the US copyright laws regarding fair use (Title 17 of the United States Code section 107 and summarized here) I find not reference to the term back, or even copies for personal use. What I do find in section 107 is:
reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright Also note that inregards to music "fair use" covers phonorecords, not direct digital replications, which is in turn covered by the DMCA.
Make all the back ups of your music that you would like, just don't think that a) you have the right to do so, b) you have the right to do so in full original quality, c) the company producing it has to make it easy.
Not familiar with fair use? Not sure you understand what "fair use" is. Fair Use, which is a judgment call as it is not fully defined, never states how that use is to be accomplished. It is still completely possible and legal to make an analog recording of any music you purchase, be it for personal use, education, journalism or what have you. Point is that "fair use" does not imply the producer needs to allow you the ability to make direct bit by bit copies, and it certainly does not imply that the producer needs to allow the "fair use" to be easy.
Why did you go after him for such a pointless argument? I'm guessing he had to respond since the blatant lies of the post he was responding to got modded as insightful rather than the Troll that it really is.
If I wanted all the features...well then it's a great program. If not then it's bloatware I don't need, and I'll choose my own software. I would make that "If I want most of the features," but other than that I agree. I happen to prefer iTunes over other music organizer/players but that's preference. Not liking it though should not be a justification to falsify information (as the GGP did).
And I'm really glad. [Rush's] latest album is excellent I must be in a minority here since I do not like Snakes and Arrows nearly as much as Vapor Trails which I liked less that Counter Parts, and of course anything from signals and earlier is even better yet. My issue with S&A is that it has no energy, no power. Vapor Trails had fast riffs, Counter Parts had hard driving rhythms, and the others mentioned were really the templates for Progressive Metal. I can remember the first time I heard Stick it Out, or One Little Victory, but I'm just not finding anything memorable about the S&A Album. And what is with the only instrumental being barely 2 minutes in length. Malignant Narcissism is certainly no Strange Village and neither is Monkey Business. I know the guys are getting old, but I just feel they can do much better.
with bands like Dream Theater now doing dungeons and dragons style lyrics The origins of Progressive Metal are built around D&D style lyrics. Look at Rushes early Albums (they all had an epic fantasy song), Fate Warnings Prog Metal days (with entire albums dedicated to the D&D style lyrics), and even older Dream Theater. I actually thing bands like Rush lost touch with their prog roots when they went to albums made of 4 minute singles. Oh and I should clarify that I happen to be one that classifies Rush as Prog Metal not Prog Rock. But even looking back at the Prog Rock it grew out of you see a lot of fantasy Epics in the works of Yes, Floyd and Tull.
The Tacoma Narrows bridge weakness was an accidental bug, not an intentional feature. That is not entirely true. The Tacoma Narrows Bridge was designed to sway in the wind and it did exactly what it was supposed to do. It so happened that the compounded effects of the wave already in the bridge and the additional winds was not well thought out.
The rootkit thingy was a feature, not a bug. An exploitable rootkit was an unfortunate and possibly unforseen (at least by Sony) side effect of the desired DRM.
The Tacoma Narrows Bridge cost tax payers millions of dollars. The rootkit cost no one other than Sony (unless you count companies that had flaws in their own systems revealed)
A few years ago Rush was only popular in circles of Rush fans mostly being dismissed by the mainstream I'm guessing you are either not in the US or Canada, or are 12.
You would be hard pressed to find a musician or rock music fan (the target audience of guitar based music games) that has never heard of Rush. Everywhere in the US I have ever lived Rush has received regular airplay.
Sounds like a difference in opinion as to what constitutes good graphics. There are those that like detail, which I am assuming you do, and those that prefer sense of scale, and artistic vision, which is where I, and other ICO/SoC fans tend to be. At the time that ICO came out it had top notch lighting effects and what, without close inspection, was made to appear as individually textured bricks. When you get deep into the game just take some time to look around, feel the sense of scale, look down an understand the peril of hanging from a rope hundreds of feet above the ground. The characters and story of ICO are absolutely top notch, really second to none, with a portrayal of emotion unheard of in other video games. If you are more than 2 or 3 hours in and have yet to have feeling for the characters then ICO, and SoC are not for you. I still don't understand the issue with the controls which I found exemplary, specifically with the flawless camera. And just a final hint of SoC, the world is not as empty as you may think.
Katamari Damacy is also one of those games of scale, where the joy come in starting out picking up tacks and growing to the point where you are picking up islands and other large objects. Later in the game you even get to do those things in the same scenario. Plus the game play is new and unique, and a great departure from the usual run and kill games that plague the other systems.
Dark Cloud may or may not appeal to you since it is an action RPG, and the graphic detail is not the best in the world, but it does have a few unique aspects, such as the need to rebuild towns based on parts you find along the way. Culdpect will probably not appeal to you at all as it is a classic card/board game style applied to a video game console. It's slow and the graphics are less than exciting, but again it's at least not the same thing that every other game is doing.
the games that everyone considers the cream of the crop of PS2 gaming You mentioned Ico and SoC, both of which classify as some of the most dramatic cinematic in any video game. Not sure what your issue is with the controls of Ico since I have played it and read many reviews and never heard one complaint about the controls until now. It also seems that you missed many of the truly acclaimed games, by both players and critics such as God of War 1 and 2, or Any of the first 3 Ratchet and Clanks, or the Jak series with the highest polygon counts of any character up till then. Or quirky originals like Katamar Damacy, Culdcept and even Okami. How about the action RPG world building games Dark Cloud 1 and 2. And that's with out mentioning the phenomena which is Guitar Hero. Personally I have never played a single sports game, fps or movie licensed game and I don't seem to be running out of high quality PS2 games to play.
All attractive people *should* be legally required to stay naked on warm days because they have nothing to hide.
All attractive females *should* be legally required to stay naked on warm days because they have nothing to hide. Is it just me or is their no substantial difference between these two statements.
the XBox and GCN came in about 3 years later (or was it 2?) So maybe 3 years is an exaduration As another reply already pointed out, even discounting the Dreamcast it was only 1 year in the US and 1.5 years in Japan/Europe before all three consoles where available.
by the time the XBox and GCN launched, it was so far ahead, that many developers wouldn't dream of switching. At the time of the GC and XBox release the PS2 had a 10 million unit head start. In this generation the XBox had a 5 million unit head start. In a generation that sold over 200 million units, a 5 million difference is not much. Nintendo has show in this generation that with the right first party support you can make the strides you need to sway third party developers. This is the same thing that Sony will most likely end up doing in november when their first party releases start coming out (R&C, Lair, Folklore etc.).
So your take on this is the tired old "don't hate the playa, hate the game" line. No I am taking the old, take some responsibility for your own actions line. Lik-Sang brought the situation on themselves by being ignorant of the laws of the countries they were operating with, and not even trying to work out a reasonable agreement with Sony. There are many other outlets, brick and mortar and online, that sell Sony products that have not been sued by Sony.
You on the other hand have decided to follow the chain of responsibility right up to the organization you wanted to dislike in the first place. Blaming Sony for this is arbitrary, they are neither the direct cause nor the initial cause, but merely a conduit through which the cause traveled.
If you don't have the ability to oversee what your departments, contractors, and people are doing before something goes to market, you deserve the backlash that comes your way when shit like this happens. So basically what you are saying is that if you were to use word processing software to write a document and that software had a flaw that attached an exploit to all document and then you distributed the document you created that you would be 100% responsible for the exploit. Or replace word processor with compiler. And you are also saying that if you were to create an operating system that was easily exploitable that you are not responsible for the security flaws and that responsibility should be entirely upon anyone that releases software that exploits the flaw, even if unintentional.
[Microsoft is] guilty of incompetence, while Sony is guilty of deliberate, malicious behavior. I guess if you consider attempting to protect your intellectual property and accidentally revealing an Operating System exploit as deliberate and malicious, then sure. Now if you can find one shred of evidence that show definitively that Sony intentionally and knowingly added a rootkit to their customers systems for the purpose of exploiting the rootkit at a later point for some purpose other than DRM then I'll take back everything I said. I might still buy sony products if they are worth it, but I would certainly think twice. But so far there has been no such proof, or even speculation out side the usual conspiracy theorist circles.
It's doubtfull we'll see those kinds of numbers for a VERY LONG TIME, if at all. Since the PS2 only outsold the PS2 by 20% I don't see that as such a lofty goal. Though I am curious how you come up with the idea that the PS2 ran without competition for 3 years? It either ran without competition for 5 years, which would say nothing else in the last gen was competition, or it ran without competition for a year, meaning the Dreamcast was not competition, or it always had competition since the dreamcast was released before it.
A decision that would not have been made if not for the course of action taken by Sony. An action that would not have been taken if it were not for Lik-sang's violation of international laws. International laws enacted by UK law makers. UK law makers elected by UK residents...Butterfly's wings in Madagascar.
And First 4 Internet snuck in the CD pressing facility late one night and changed the masters without Sony knowing. More like First 4 Internet produced a DRM product under contract by Sony that happen to contain a flaw which revealed an exploit in Microsoft Windows that was not caught by Sony Quality Assurance before being released to the public which ultimately caused no appreciable damages, was patched in short time, and caused Sony to pay fines far in excess of even potential damages.
Sony had NO idea that a rootkit was on their cd's. I'm not a Sony insider so I do not know what they did or did not know, but I have worked with contracted work where the client had no clue what was happening inside the product. This is not uncommon. The state of Washington didn't know the Tacoma narrows bridge was susceptible to high winds, this is after all why you higher outside contractors. I could have mentioned that it was an exploit of a flaw in the Windows Operating system that allowed the Rootkit to exist in the first place, so why is Rootkit not in the MS list of "evil things."
I'm not actually defending Sony, just saying that they did rectify the issue and paid excessive fines (far above any damage actually caused) yet I'm not hearing any flack about the other companies involved, such as First 4 Internet, Microsoft, and any of those companies continued partners.
That's like saying that allofmp3 wasn't closed down by the RIAA or the US, it was shut down by a russian Judge. First of all lik-sang was not shut down by anyone, they shut themselves down. Second they chose to shut down because they were not able to continue to hide behind the protection of Hong Kong law and instead had to contend with the laws of the countries of the citizens they conducted business with. Complain to, and about, the law makers if you have an issue with the law, not to the company that attempts to exercise their rights protected by those laws. And it's not like I didn't purchase from Lik-Sang since I have a number of Gundams and Gundam related products purchased through them.
As for allofmp3.com, I think you are starting to understand how law works. You can can demand or make all the threats you want but in the end it is the law makers that make the decisions.
You win fanboy of the day. If by "fanboy" you mean purveyor of facts, then I'll take that award.
Again, I'm not nocking the Wii, more just waiting to see what happens, but I don't see it having the market share that the PS2 has/had. Console traditionally sold for single player use, something you did when you weren't hanging out with friends, so the only market competition were arcades, PCs and other consoles, basically the same exact market. The Wii, being designed and marketed as a party game has a heck of alot more to compete with, like board games, poker, sports and drinking. When I get together with friends we tend to not play video games, so the does not appeal to us. I'm not sure if I am a minority, but I'm betting Drinking with friends will continue to out pace playing video party games with friends.
* Lik-Sang Closed due to a decision made by the High Court of London.
* Rootkit Create by First 4 Internet and removed by Sony BMG.
Poorly built products (Especially compared to the quality of products they were producing in the 80's) I'm guessing you didn't actually own any Sony consumer electronics in the 80s, they were pretty shoddy back then too. But to counter that I happen to own an initial release PS2 (built in the 00s mind you) that still runs to this day. Not to mention that the PS3 has good track record for reliability compared to the console market as a whole.
* Arrogance I think you may be confusing confidence with arrogance.
And I don't know any gamers serious enough to already own a PS3 or Xbox360 who don't also want a Wii. I don't currently own any of them but once I do decided to purchase one it most likely will not be a Wii. I know a number of people who have a Wii and have played one a number of times. I'm not saying the Wii is a bad console, I'm just not seeing any games announced that appeal to me, outside of a few virtual console releases of old Sega games, which I already purchased once. Graphics aside I just don't see anything that compares to Lair, Heavenly Sword, Eye of Judgment, Folklore, Ratchet and Clank, and Rock Band (which has not been confirmed for the Wii). That's just listing a few for the PS3 through the end of the year, with the XBox 360 exclusives making the list that much longer.
But none of that is the real reason I would not purchase a Wii. The big reason is that I would only use the Wii for multiplayer games, and anyone I would be playing those games with already owns a Wii (at least one of the group would at least). I'm not writing it off completely, but so far there is no motivating factor to by a Wii. Currently the only motivation I have to buy any current gen system is the fact that my PS2 is becoming a hassle to maintain (initial release PS2 that requires some up keep).
If the cost of a PS3 is "two goddamn paychecks" then I would suggest you spend less time playing games and more time improving your marketable skills (possibly by finishing your secondary education).
That should make more since to people not residing in the United States.
Or maybe I am wrong and you live in a country that has no use for marketable skills. But being as you are posting on slashdot, in english, and know what a video game console is, I'm betting that's not the case.
Brilliant? BRILLIANT? IT'S STILL TWO GODDAMN PAYCHECKS! If $500 is "two goddamn paychecks" then I would suggest you spend less time playing games and more time improving your marketable skills (possibly by finishing high school).
And no, I'm not defending the price of any game console.
Never worked in a startup, have you? I think what you meant to say was
Never worked at an unsuccessful company that is bleeding VC dry while syphoning as much as possible into the C*Os bank accounts. Seriously no decent company, established or start up, should have managers doing grunt work, or "raging lunatics."
Sev 1 is a system failure that is causing either loss of life (like if the hospitals life support systems failed) or cost significant amount of financial damage (not likely at a start up). Neither of these should be anything you have to go looking or. If you have to find it then it's not sev 1. It's more of "Not that big of a a deal since no one is screaming their heads off about it."
You never made any assertions about the PS2. Gee, I made a typo. If it weren't for your lack of reading comprehension you might not have been able to point it out. Well good for you.
But you are arguing that the PS3 is a good value for the typical consumer Actualy I, and pretty much everyone is this thread other than you, is arguing that the PS3 is a good value period, not for any particular set of consumers. If you can't see that getting a Blu-Ray DVD player, a reasonable powerful fully functional home computer, and what is possible the most powerful game console on the market for $600 is a good value, then I think you might do well to take some economics courses.
I doubt Terra Soft, or any other Linux installer, represents a significant proportion of the share of PS3 sales. You are funny, when you lose one argument you make up a new one. Originally you implied there were not vendors of PS3s with linux pre installed, but once I point one out you change your argument to be that they represent a minority of the console vendors.
In this thread you seem to be the only one arguing that the PS3 is not a good value, so I'm gonna take the majority opinion on this one and you can feel free to continue to change your arguments till you find one that sticks, but personally I'm done refuting your moronic arguments.
Damn I'd don't think I have ever seen anyone miss a point by so much. I never tried to assert that the PS2 was a value for you, though I still assert a Porsche with two free Ferraris thrown in is still a good deal even if you already own a Ferrari. But what I was saying is someone that wasn't trying to prove that the PS3 has no value might just find everything bundled in it as a good value, or people that don't already have a media hub, or a computer for their children, or... well I think you and everyone else reading gets the point.
some unnamed vendor that you assert "does exist" Yes I will feed the Troll, who will no doubt point out that this example of a vendor for PS3s with linux installed will claim that it cost more than the $600 comparison, but here is a vendor for you TerraSoft. And just so you know the typical user does buy from a specific vendor that will supply them with a computer and their chosen OS already installed.
I have a mobile entertainment hub So if you don't want to paly PS3 games or have a library of PS2 games already then the PS3 is not for you, I won't argue with that. But the fact that you already have all these things does not make the PS3 any less of a good value. I mean if they sold Ferrari's for 10k would you say it's not a good value because you already have a car that does everything the a Ferrari does except it's speed? You might, but I think you would be in a serious minority.
For $600, I can get a computer that can run... With the exception of multi-booting multiple operating systems I'm not seeing anything the PS3 can't do that your $600 computer can. On the other hand the PS3 can play PS2 and 3 Games and Blu-Ray Videos which your $600 computer can't (notice I'm assuming your example computer is capable of running a PS1 emulator). And yes the PS3 can do all this out of the box, as much as any other computer, if you purchase from a vendor that pre installs Linux, and they do exist. Or at worst it requires a DL or purchase of a Linux distribution.
I'm also not saying that your computer set up is not a good value (thought I can't see it as nearly the value the PS3 has), but that it is tailored for you, just as the PS3 is tailored for people who want the things it does (which is more inline with the usual console market).
With the exception of the Cell processor and a different selection of "fairly good online content", I already own something that does all of these things. And unless you're also using your PS3 to post on Slashdot, so do you. You are correct that most of us already own a machine capable of doing some of what you listed (posting on slashdot does not require a DVD drive, Memory card reader, bluetooth, usb or wifi), but that many of us don't like to use or computers as entertainment hubs. For someone like be that has no desktop box and uses laptops exclusively having a fixed box entertainment hub is a good thing, and having one that does all of the items you listed is even better. This would also add another fully functional computer to your household in case you had children or such that did not already have their own computers.
I believe the original posters point was that you get a lot for your money and may even be able to replace a number of other devices in your home. I happen to know a number of people who's home computers are not as powerful as a PS3 and so this is a really good upgrade route. When you break it down you get a video game console (the only way some of us play video games) worth at least $250 (pricing it with the Wii) an Upscaling DVD player (another $100) a Blu-Ray Player (easily another $500) and a decent performance network ready computer (another $600), all with an expected 10 years of continued support for the platform (priceless compared to it's competitors track records). So added up it looks like you get approximately $1500 worth of equipment for $500-$600, depending on price drop. True the value is only to those that do not already have all those things, but for some that is a really good value.
Slashdot Mirror
So as I sit here and read the US copyright laws regarding fair use (Title 17 of the United States Code section 107 and summarized here) I find not reference to the term back, or even copies for personal use. What I do find in section 107 is: reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright Also note that inregards to music "fair use" covers phonorecords, not direct digital replications, which is in turn covered by the DMCA.
Make all the back ups of your music that you would like, just don't think that a) you have the right to do so, b) you have the right to do so in full original quality, c) the company producing it has to make it easy.
The Tacoma Narrows Bridge cost tax payers millions of dollars. The rootkit cost no one other than Sony (unless you count companies that had flaws in their own systems revealed)
You would be hard pressed to find a musician or rock music fan (the target audience of guitar based music games) that has never heard of Rush. Everywhere in the US I have ever lived Rush has received regular airplay.
Sounds like a difference in opinion as to what constitutes good graphics. There are those that like detail, which I am assuming you do, and those that prefer sense of scale, and artistic vision, which is where I, and other ICO/SoC fans tend to be. At the time that ICO came out it had top notch lighting effects and what, without close inspection, was made to appear as individually textured bricks. When you get deep into the game just take some time to look around, feel the sense of scale, look down an understand the peril of hanging from a rope hundreds of feet above the ground. The characters and story of ICO are absolutely top notch, really second to none, with a portrayal of emotion unheard of in other video games. If you are more than 2 or 3 hours in and have yet to have feeling for the characters then ICO, and SoC are not for you. I still don't understand the issue with the controls which I found exemplary, specifically with the flawless camera. And just a final hint of SoC, the world is not as empty as you may think.
Katamari Damacy is also one of those games of scale, where the joy come in starting out picking up tacks and growing to the point where you are picking up islands and other large objects. Later in the game you even get to do those things in the same scenario. Plus the game play is new and unique, and a great departure from the usual run and kill games that plague the other systems.
Dark Cloud may or may not appeal to you since it is an action RPG, and the graphic detail is not the best in the world, but it does have a few unique aspects, such as the need to rebuild towns based on parts you find along the way. Culdpect will probably not appeal to you at all as it is a classic card/board game style applied to a video game console. It's slow and the graphics are less than exciting, but again it's at least not the same thing that every other game is doing.
Where are my mod points when I need them? Or am I the only one that thought that was worthy of a +1 Funny?
You on the other hand have decided to follow the chain of responsibility right up to the organization you wanted to dislike in the first place. Blaming Sony for this is arbitrary, they are neither the direct cause nor the initial cause, but merely a conduit through which the cause traveled. If you don't have the ability to oversee what your departments, contractors, and people are doing before something goes to market, you deserve the backlash that comes your way when shit like this happens. So basically what you are saying is that if you were to use word processing software to write a document and that software had a flaw that attached an exploit to all document and then you distributed the document you created that you would be 100% responsible for the exploit. Or replace word processor with compiler. And you are also saying that if you were to create an operating system that was easily exploitable that you are not responsible for the security flaws and that responsibility should be entirely upon anyone that releases software that exploits the flaw, even if unintentional.
[Microsoft is] guilty of incompetence, while Sony is guilty of deliberate, malicious behavior. I guess if you consider attempting to protect your intellectual property and accidentally revealing an Operating System exploit as deliberate and malicious, then sure. Now if you can find one shred of evidence that show definitively that Sony intentionally and knowingly added a rootkit to their customers systems for the purpose of exploiting the rootkit at a later point for some purpose other than DRM then I'll take back everything I said. I might still buy sony products if they are worth it, but I would certainly think twice. But so far there has been no such proof, or even speculation out side the usual conspiracy theorist circles.
I'm not actually defending Sony, just saying that they did rectify the issue and paid excessive fines (far above any damage actually caused) yet I'm not hearing any flack about the other companies involved, such as First 4 Internet, Microsoft, and any of those companies continued partners. That's like saying that allofmp3 wasn't closed down by the RIAA or the US, it was shut down by a russian Judge. First of all lik-sang was not shut down by anyone, they shut themselves down. Second they chose to shut down because they were not able to continue to hide behind the protection of Hong Kong law and instead had to contend with the laws of the countries of the citizens they conducted business with. Complain to, and about, the law makers if you have an issue with the law, not to the company that attempts to exercise their rights protected by those laws. And it's not like I didn't purchase from Lik-Sang since I have a number of Gundams and Gundam related products purchased through them.
As for allofmp3.com, I think you are starting to understand how law works. You can can demand or make all the threats you want but in the end it is the law makers that make the decisions. You win fanboy of the day. If by "fanboy" you mean purveyor of facts, then I'll take that award.
Again, I'm not nocking the Wii, more just waiting to see what happens, but I don't see it having the market share that the PS2 has/had. Console traditionally sold for single player use, something you did when you weren't hanging out with friends, so the only market competition were arcades, PCs and other consoles, basically the same exact market. The Wii, being designed and marketed as a party game has a heck of alot more to compete with, like board games, poker, sports and drinking. When I get together with friends we tend to not play video games, so the does not appeal to us. I'm not sure if I am a minority, but I'm betting Drinking with friends will continue to out pace playing video party games with friends.
But none of that is the real reason I would not purchase a Wii. The big reason is that I would only use the Wii for multiplayer games, and anyone I would be playing those games with already owns a Wii (at least one of the group would at least). I'm not writing it off completely, but so far there is no motivating factor to by a Wii. Currently the only motivation I have to buy any current gen system is the fact that my PS2 is becoming a hassle to maintain (initial release PS2 that requires some up keep).
Oh, let me rephrase.
If the cost of a PS3 is "two goddamn paychecks" then I would suggest you spend less time playing games and more time improving your marketable skills (possibly by finishing your secondary education).
That should make more since to people not residing in the United States.
Or maybe I am wrong and you live in a country that has no use for marketable skills. But being as you are posting on slashdot, in english, and know what a video game console is, I'm betting that's not the case.
And no, I'm not defending the price of any game console.
Sev 1 is a system failure that is causing either loss of life (like if the hospitals life support systems failed) or cost significant amount of financial damage (not likely at a start up). Neither of these should be anything you have to go looking or. If you have to find it then it's not sev 1. It's more of "Not that big of a a deal since no one is screaming their heads off about it."
In this thread you seem to be the only one arguing that the PS3 is not a good value, so I'm gonna take the majority opinion on this one and you can feel free to continue to change your arguments till you find one that sticks, but personally I'm done refuting your moronic arguments.
I'm also not saying that your computer set up is not a good value (thought I can't see it as nearly the value the PS3 has), but that it is tailored for you, just as the PS3 is tailored for people who want the things it does (which is more inline with the usual console market).
I believe the original posters point was that you get a lot for your money and may even be able to replace a number of other devices in your home. I happen to know a number of people who's home computers are not as powerful as a PS3 and so this is a really good upgrade route. When you break it down you get a video game console (the only way some of us play video games) worth at least $250 (pricing it with the Wii) an Upscaling DVD player (another $100) a Blu-Ray Player (easily another $500) and a decent performance network ready computer (another $600), all with an expected 10 years of continued support for the platform (priceless compared to it's competitors track records). So added up it looks like you get approximately $1500 worth of equipment for $500-$600, depending on price drop. True the value is only to those that do not already have all those things, but for some that is a really good value.