Microsoft Readies Cheaper 360

Officially Microsoft is putting on a brave face, saying they won't drop the 360's price even in the console's weakest market: Japan. Just the same (probably in anticipation of Sony's PS3 price drop), the San Jose Mercury news says the company is secretly working on preparing a lower cost Xbox 360 SKU. Called 'Falcon', it's a cost-reduced system using 65nm chips instead of the at-launch 90nm electronics. This ties right into Michael Pachter's expectation of such a cut; it should be noted he doesn't see the DS or Wii prices moving any time soon. Related to all of this, Newsweek's LevelUp blog has two great interviews today: a Peter Moore discussion harkening back to last week's warranty announcement, and a chat with Jack Tretton about the price cut and the 360's hardware issues.

Comments

Okay....

[JamesRose]

"it should be noted he doesn't see the DS or Wii prices moving any time soon"

Ermmm... the wii is half the price! A Price cut is not necessary becauser the wii is sooooooooooooooo much cheaper anyway.

Re:Okay....

[Anonymous Coward]

Ermmm... the wii is half the price! A Price cut is not necessary becauser the wii is sooooooooooooooo much cheaper anyway.

Am I the only one who feels it's a bit unheard of to lower the cost of a major game system, less than 1 year after it's launch? Heck, only 7 months after it's launch? Not only that, but by $100 (~17%)?

I admit, I'm excited for the price cut, but I still don't have $500 to drop. Even if I like my 'tech toys'.

Re:Okay....

[Doctor Crumb]

A price cut is not expected for the wii because it's still selling as fast as they can make it! Microsoft and Sony are having trouble moving stock at this point, so a price cut makes sense for them.

Re:Okay....

[hardburn]

Economically speaking, the Wii should see a price increase of $50-100, which brings it in line with the eBay price (which is roughly the true market price), thus stopping the shortage. However, the effects on long term customer goodwill probably wouldn't be worth it.

Re:Okay....

[Sciros]

I got my 360 Premium brand new from Micro Center for $300 almost a year ago. Since then that sale's been running on and off non-stop. How is $250 half the price? It's $50 less... and for a console with fewer games and pricer controllers (I'd need the nunchucks) I don't see it as that big a bargain. I'm not saying a price cut is in order by any means, but I never saw the Wii's somewhat lower price a huge selling point for myself (though then again most people look at $9.99 and think it's much cheaper than $10.00).

Re:Okay....

[SQLGuru]

That would be "as fast as they decide to ship them".....I don't really think that they can "only" produce a handful of them.....stores around here are still constantly sold out getting small shipments periodically. Not saying they can't be had, but that I think they can make them faster than they are right now.

Of course, this delay does a couple of smart things:
1. Maintain high demand so that price cuts aren't necessary.
2. Delays production of units so that component parts become cheaper -- thus reducing the loss (or increasing the margin?).

Layne

Re:Okay....

[suv4x4]

"it should be noted he doesn't see the DS or Wii prices moving any time soon"

We have very short attention span and can't judge things in context (such as Wii's absolute price, Wii sales, PS3 position on the market, XBOX's position on the market, previous statements by people in each company etc.), so saying this is surely to impact Wii and DS in a negative way!

Boo, Wii is not also lowering their prices!

Re:Okay....

[Anonymous Coward]

This nonsense has been debunked over and over again. Sales for the Wii are far higher than "a handful". Nobody expected them to sell this fast, and Nintendo cannot simply snap their fingers and triple production capacity. Yet every time the Wii comes up, somebody has to trot out this idea that there's a giant warehouse full of Wiis somewhere that Nintendo is using for some kind of mythological strategic advantage based on exceptionally tortured logic. Give it up.

Re:Okay....

[SQLGuru]

I'm not saying there are warehouses full of the things.....I think that they just aren't "in a hurry" to make them at full production speeds.

Layne

Re:Okay....

[Bender0x7D1]

I don't really think that they can "only" produce a handful of them

Well, according to vgchartz.com, Nintendo is currently selling between 217,000 and 225,000 each week. At 217,000 a week, they have to produce over 30,000 a day or over 1,200 an hour (assuming around-the-clock production) to meet that demand. That's quite a few consoles. In addition, they can't just add capacity because they need it for a few months to catch up with demand. Adding addional capacity takes a lot of time, and a lot of money - and you don't spend that much time and money unless you have a sustained need for it - adding capacity eats into your profits over the short term.

Re:Okay....

[Xenomorph.NET]

didn't the PlayStation 1 receive a 33% price drop just 9 months after launch?

Re:Okay....

[naoursla]

Do you really think Nintendo isn't in a hurry to make money? They are making and selling them as quickly as they can. They would certainly make them faster if they could.

Re:Okay....

[Chosen Reject]

most people look at $9.99 and think it's much cheaper than $10.00

I guess I have trained myself to avoid that pitfall. I had to read that twice to see how you could say $10 is less than $10.

Re:Okay....

[provigilman]

My wife is terrible about falling for that... I've said a couple of times how most people, unless they make a conscious determination not to, see $9.99 as $9 instead of $10. Or when you see new homes going up they say "from the $170,000's", which actually means $179,999. Of course, she would scoff at it and say "That ridiculous!"

Or rather, she did until I started catching her falling for it... "Hey, can we get this, it's only $7?" "Actually honey, that's $8, it's $7.99. And once you add in tax, it'll actually be more like $8.75."

Re:Okay....

[Wildfire Darkstar]

Why not? They have a history of throttling production in order to raise demand, from back in the NES days.

I'm not saying they're doing it now, mind you: I haven't bothered to look closely enough to have an opinion one way or the other. But it wouldn't be unheard of.

Re:Okay....

[SuiteSisterMary]

Well, I do recall that the PS1 was specifically priced $100 less than the Sega Saturn, and that the price was announced specifically to screw Sega.

Wouldn't surprise me if they had to drop the price early to follow a desperate Sega drop...

Re:Okay....

[Stefanwulf]

As I understand things, Nintendo is not in the business of actually manufacturing hardware. This separates them from companies like Sony.

The Wii is currently being manufactured under contract by a company called Foxconn. My bet would be that the contract only allows for so much of a manufacturing ramp-up without having to renegotiate terms, not to mention any physical production limits Foxconn may run up against. At a certain point Foxconn has to do its own cost-benefit analysis and decide whether or not it's worth creating new manufacturing plants or delivering late on their other contracts in order to meet a demand from Nintendo that is almost certainly going to fall off in the future.

Re:Okay....

[Khaed]

yeah man... it's lacking so many features people are having to buy twice as many Wii's and PS3s to make up!

that must explain the sales numbers.

(yeah, this'll ding my karma, but it was totally worth it.)

Re:Okay....

[The PS3 Will Fail]

"I'm not saying there are warehouses full of the things.....I think that they just aren't "in a hurry" to make them at full production speeds."

Yes, I have some baseless conjecture too. I just have the good sense not to post it on the internet. What's your excuse?

Re:Okay....

[ShaggyIan]

Eh, they do it because it works.

My favorite is still the "4 for $20" and "10 for $10" type of deals. It never ceases to amaze me how many people (my wife included) don't read that as $5 or $1 each, but think, "I have to buy 10 of them!"

Given my experience, I'm guessing that despite catching her, she still thinks that way, doesn't she?

Re:Okay....

[Jartan]

Well you have to buy two 360's so when the first one bricks you can use the other one while you wait for MS to refurbish the first one.

I assume this is what he meant by half the price?

Re:Okay....

[acidrain69]

Component parts may become cheaper, but just having a factory and operating it costs money. I'm sure there is some sweet spot where you don't want to produce below a certain amount. Not to mention the fact that they want as many people to buy as possible, because the big N will make more money on games.

I bet one of the 1st Wii updates will be more flash ram, or possibly a small hard drive (but much more likely to be more flashram). Maybe a built in NIC.

No, I think Nintendo is probably running at or near capacity, but the next step would be to open or expand a factory, and they don't want to invest the money, just to satisfy initial demand that will inevitably decline in the future.

Re:Okay....

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think that Nintendo is sitting on a ton of stockpiled Wiis, but it isn't inconceivable that they could be stockpiling some for the holidays. There are some very significant reasons why holiday console sales are more important than sales during other times.

First of all, console makers have to convince publishers (and consumers to an extent) that their console is doing well and people tend to use holiday sales as a measure of a consoles health. If Nintendo shows any weakness during the holiday season they could cause publishers to lose confidence in them.

Second of all, some consumers may only be likely to buy a console during the holidays so if you don't sell it to them this holiday season you may not get another chance to get them to buy it until next holiday season. Or worse yet, they may buy another console and stop considering your console completely.

I also have a hunch that the attach rate for holiday sales is much higher which would mean that holiday sales are actually more profitable (or at least more profitable in the short term, long term it probably evens out). This seems like a reasonable assumption to me, but don't quote me on that.

Re:Okay....

[Anonymous Coward]

that should be "twice as many Wiis as PS3s." I have no idea how I got an "and" in there. Sony wishes...

Re:Okay....

[aichpvee]

Actually, given that there are no part shortages it's inconceivable (yes, it means what I think it means) that they couldn't increase production. Whoever makes the calls on production quantity at Nintendo is clearly holding their wad. If everyone who wanted one had one right now most of them would be sick of waiting for anything decent to play and either shelve the sucker, like I have, or sell it and plan to buy it again "when the good games are out." This strategy seems to be working pretty well for them, but it is entirely artificial.

You clearly know this to be true so you posted AC.

Re:Okay....

[aichpvee]

That sale is in-store only and not everyone lives in a state with microcenter, you insensitive clod!

Re:Okay....

[SQLGuru]

Dell can produce several 100K of computers (servers, laptops, desktops, etc.) per day in the US alone......so, 30K a day doesn't really seem like that big of deal to me.

Layne

Re:Okay....

[Masami Eiri]

In defense, I've seen a lot of times where those deals are only valid if you buy the specified number. Also, many times its a product that is likely to run out relatively soon, may as well stock up. example: pepsi 12-packs are 3 for $10 at Sheetz. My family tears through soda products, so three 12 packs will last us a week, maybe a bit more (whether that's a high rate or not is irrelevant). Makes more sense to get all 3 now, then to have to run back out in three days to get another and spend the gas money.

Re:Okay....

[Anonymous Coward]

They have a history of throttling production in order to raise demand, from back in the NES days.

Translation: Stupid crazies have a history of accusing Nintendo of doing this whenever they have a popular product.

Re:Okay....

[LKM]

And Nintendo is selling them as fast as they can make them. Until production catches up with demand, they won't cut the price. It's obvious, however, that the Wii will be the first console going below 200 US$, which will guarantee mass market appeal.

Re:Okay....

[LKM]

I don't really think that they can "only" produce a handful of them.

A handful of them? Where did you get that idea? They have now reached almost 9 million sold consoles within a bit more than half a year. I see now way how or why that could imply that they are restricting shipments. The stores are not sold out because Nintendo is selling so few consoles. They are sold out because people buy them so quickly!

I am certain Nintendo is doing everything they can to get production up. They know that they have to ship now to win this generation. They need to surpass the combined numbers of the PS3 and the 360 in order to be the console everyone makes games for, and they're doing everything they can to get there as quickly as possible.

Re:Okay....

[LKM]

No. They have a history of making money, which is the result of careful predictions. They didn't expect the Wii (or the DS, for that matter) to sell half as well as they are selling, and now they are scrambling to increase production.

Re:Okay....

[LKM]

I don't think that Nintendo is sitting on a ton of stockpiled Wiis, but it isn't inconceivable that they could be stockpiling some for the holidays. There are some very significant reasons why holiday console sales are more important than sales during other times.

Nintendo probably wouldn't do that. The actual shop chains, however, do do that, because having them in stock for the holidays means they can advertise them as in stock.

Re:Okay....

[FritzTheCat1030]

I think it's not so much of an issue of if the COULD increase production, but, rather, if they SHOULD increase production. Let's say there's currently a demand for X units a month. That number is certainly going to go down over the next year as the people who have been looking since launch finally get one.

Say Nintendo anticipates demand a year from now to be Y units a month and their current production is Z units a month. Any increase in Z now is going to have an additional cost associated with it...additional labor costs, machinery cost, and possibly additional real estate cost. If Z now is greater than Y, any additional money spent now to increase production is going to be of very little benifit once the supply catches up to the demand. And the shortages aren't exactly bad publicity for them as the Wii continues to be a HOT item even over half a year after its release.

Re:Okay....

[ShaggyIan]

Oh certainly, if it is required. In our neck of the woods, that it very rare, and almost always only on pop.

They pop up every now and again here, and the buy X get one free always rings up X, then a free one.

Re:Okay....

[SethraLavode]

Just so you know, Foxconn is also building the PS3.

In fact, Foxconn was unable to ramp up Wii production because they thought it would be more profitable to reserve the extra lines for the PS3.

Re:Okay....

[Sciros]

Hehehehe well not everyone lives in a state with a Wii, either. (I'm not sure if that helps my previous points or not but it's a new day and I'm sleepy)

Re:Okay....

[Wildfire Darkstar]

"Stupid crazies" like Nintendo of America Vice-President Peter Main? Back at the height of the NES, he admitted that Nintendo deliberately refused to fill all retailer orders for NES hardware and cartridges in order to manufacture scarcity and heighten demand. From Nintendo's perspective, retailers were exaggerating demand and the process, which the company referred to as "inventory management," was designed to prevent the type of glut in the marketplace that nearly doomed the industry during the early 1980s.

They may have had a point, mind you: a landfill full of unsold E.T. cartridges for the Atari 2600 speaks to the dangers of flooding the market. But, even if they were right to do so, it was what it was. And given Nintendo's licensing choke hold over its third party developers at the time, it was a monumentally stupid decision that eventually got them sued by various licensees and competitors, including Atari and Activision.

There is no conspiracy theory involved in this: Nintendo does have this history. Whether or not they are doing it now, of course, is another story. Their relationship to game developers have changed significantly since the late 1980s, so they would arguably have less to gain: in the 1980s, they controlled the cartridge production process, and so could essentially control both the hardware and software ends of things. And Nintendo in 2007 is certainly not the only significant player in the video game industry as it was in 1989. Besides, as I said earlier, I'm not familiar enough with the situation today to have a real opinion, I'm merely stating that it has happened in the past, and it's no big secret, either.

Re:Okay....

[Wildfire Darkstar]

That explains the initial shortage. But the Wii has been out for almost eight months, now. One would hope they would have been able to at least begin to address the shortage problems, but not much seems to have changed. At the very least, after being blindsided by the popularity of the DS, Nintendo just looks foolish to find themselves in pretty much the same situation with the Wii. In light of Nintendo's past history of engineering shortages (which I mentioned upthread, and is talked about in more depth here or here), there seems plenty of reason to be skeptical, even though I admit there's nothing conclusive about it.

Re:Okay....

[Anonymous Coward]

Using the credit of an absent declarant as the basis of an inference is not only fallacious, it is immoral.

Bitter Atari executives twisting the words of Peter Main do not justify or prove your conspiracy theory, especially not when Nintendo itself has offered alternative and credible explanations.

It's bunkum, pure and simple. Nintendo does not have this history, and the claim is contrary to logic and unsupported by evidence.

Re:Okay....

[Wildfire Darkstar]

"Twisting" how, exactly? Peter Main's description of inventory management is not really in dispute: the practice was to refuse to fill retailer orders in full. Nintendo has never, to my knowledge, denied this fact. Indeed, Main's argument was that inventory management was necessary to prevent another 1983/84-style industry crash. It was part of the bevy of complaints that led to antitrust action against Nintendo in the late 1980s and early 1990s. As for the Wii, absolutely. I'm not attempting to offer any kind of evidence of wrongdoing on Nintendo's part. Peter Main, AFAIK, isn't even connected to Nintendo anymore, and the industry isn't the same place it was two decades ago.

Even if I were interested in making the argument that Nintendo is deliberately manufacturing scarcity with regards to the Wii, I don't really give a damn. Whereas with the NES, where Nintendo's inventory policies concerning both first and third party hardware and games had their third-party developers by the neck, there doesn't seem to be any such abuse here: they can make Wiis as quickly or slowly as they want, and while I may not agree with the decision, I don't think there's anything morally, ethically, or (as far as I understand it) legally wrong with it. Assuming there is an "it" in the first place, which I don't feel qualified to comment on (as I've repeated several times already).

As it happens, I think it makes Nintendo look better than the alternate explanation that they were so monumentally off on their initial estimates and left themselves no effective way to resolve the imbalance, especially after similar problems with the Nintendo DS. I find "Machiavellian" preferable to "foolish" any day ;-)

Re:Okay....

[Stefanwulf]

It would seem they're also producing the PS2 and the 360. In fact, according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn/ all the various production difficulties that have plagued consoles this generation and caused endless arguments on the internet seem to have been experienced by this one company, who is actually manufacturing every console currently on the market.

Now that I find funny.

Re:Okay....

[aichpvee]

No, but everyone lives in a state with an ebay and Wii is way over-priced no matter where you live so you might as well just pay the $50 ebay premium and get one if you want it.

Let the price wars begin

[svendsen]

Considering how badly the consumer has been screwed this console war I'm glad to see some things which benefit us finally.

Re:Let the price wars begin

[mrchaotica]

Only "consumers" stupid enough to buy a 360 or PS3 have been screwed. Everybody else is just fine, thankyouverymuch!

Re:Let the price wars begin

[dunezone]

I think the biggest screw job so far this generation is how they screw us on the extra content. Microsoft isn't so bad except for their pricing scheme is goofy. Nintendo over charges on everything on the virtual console. I cant really speak for Sony since Ive never owned one of their consoles.

Re:Let the price wars begin

[aesiamun]

Fortunately I haven't yet been screwed by Microsoft on my purchase of the XBox360. I had a launch unit that was locking up, but they replaced it for free and since then, no issues what so ever. I don't think every 360 unit is bad, but yeah a lot are.

So, I might be 'stupid' but I didn't get screwed.

Re:Let the price wars begin

[Blakey Rat]

How did Xbox 360 customers get screwed? I just got a free 3-year warranty on a machine that functions perfectly-- not my definition of "screwed."

Re:Let the price wars begin

[fistfullast33l]

I think Sony is doing pretty well - the only add in content so far that is being charged for is some of the extra music for Ridge Racer 7. Everything else was free (Motorstorm and Resistance), included with the game because it was delayed so long for the PS3 (Rainbow Six:Vegas or Oblivion), or an original minigame that costs less than $10 in most cases (Calling all Cars, Stardust HD). Add in the fact that PSN is free and there are some good demos, and I have no problem with Sony's current setup. It certainly has gotten a lot better since Christmas and I anticipate that this week will hopefully add even more value.

Re:Let the price wars begin

[twistedsymphony]

If owning a 360 that had 0 problems, just got a free 3 year warranty and is something that I enjoy playing on a daily basis for 4+ hours of my leisure time (which is more attention then I give to my Wii, or PS2, or any of the other consoles I've ever owned) is your definition of "screwed"; well then I guess I've been throughly screwed...

... sounds like you're bitter because you haven't been screwed.

Re:Let the price wars begin

[KlomDark]

> I anticipate that this week will hopefully add even more value

Paid corporate astroturfer alert! He said "anticipate" and "add value" in the same sentence, dead giveaway in speech pattern for "marketing drone".

Re:Let the price wars begin

[Blakey Rat]

My console has never been in the repair shop, and I've never been unable to use my Live account. In fact, I'm quite pleased that I can use the same Live account with both my regular Xbox and my Xbox 360.

Re:Let the price wars begin

[Dan Ost]

Don't look now, but you just did it too.

Re:Let the price wars begin

[Kalriath]

In fact, I'm quite pleased that I can use the same Live account with both my regular Xbox and my Xbox 360. And Windows, if you're that way inclined.

I've gotta agree with you though. A friend of mine had a launch XB360 where the DVD-ROM drive failed, but mine was purchased the week before his and works fine. Only time I see the "red ring of death" is when there's a power spike or short power cut (device stays on, but crashes)

Re:Let the price wars begin

[senatorpjt]

I bought a PS3 for $600 and I don't feel screwed at all. I actually feel more screwed by the Wii, since it would have been way better if I could use the Wiimote with the PS3.

Re:Let the price wars begin

[senatorpjt]

The Resistance map pack was $7, I think. The price per map was kind of a ripoff.

Re:Let the price wars begin

[donaldm]

I actually got my Australian PS3 for US$407 with a trade-in of my 5 year old PS2 and 10 old games and I definitely don't feel screwed. Still even though there are not many PS3 games I like at the moment I have huge selection of PS2 games to pick from and upscaled PS2 and even PS1 games give a good game a new lease of life. The difficulty I have now is deciding which PS2 games to play. I can even use my Logitech 2 PS2 wireless (even has rumble) controller with the PS2 to PS3 USB adapter.

On a slight aside if you did not know already, you don't need your PS3 to charge your sixaxis controller just plug it into any working PC USB port, it will flash all leds while charging and all go off when it is finished. Saves leaving the PS3 running all night unless you are running Folding@Home.

Re:Let the price wars begin

[mrchaotica]

You still paid $400-odd dollars (plus games) for a game console, which is insane to begin with!

Re:Let the price wars begin

[aesiamun]

How much was the NES when it was first released after adjustment for inflation? What about the Sega Genesis? Super Nintendo?

I don't think $400 is a lot for the entertainment that I have gotten out of this console. The few games I own (GH2, Forza2 and GoW) have provided me more than enough for what i played and the gamefly subscription brings me even more.

Re:Let the price wars begin

[aesiamun]

The console was released for $200 in 1985...

With inflation that puts the console today about $400 or so according to this: http://oregonstate.edu/cla/polisci/faculty/sahr/cv 2005.pdf

Re:Let the price wars begin

[senatorpjt]

If you happen to have an iPod (don't know about which versions are like this), it comes with a wall charger that has a USB power port, so you don't have to run anything at all. It seems kind of dumb that the PS3 can't charge a controller while it's off, especially considering they only give you a 2 foot cable.

Redesign might be nice

[kannibal_klown]

If they redesign to use 65nm, and the end result is a 360 that runs cooler and doesn't need to blast the fan as much, I might consider replacing mine with one. But it would need to have the same hard drive space (preferably more) than the current non-Core system.

Re:Redesign might be nice

[donaldm]

By using 65nm technology or even smaller you don't necessarily produce a cpu (in this case a triple core) that runs at a lower temperature unless you can run the device at a lower voltage and current (Note: Power = Voltage x Current), if the power is equal then the overall surface area of the chip will be hotter requiring a much more efficient heat dissipation system.

The main reason for reducing a chip by using 65 nm technology is to produce more working chips from a single wafer and this translates to cost saving. Shrinking electronics is a cost saving in real estate but you normally end up trying to dissipate the same heat of the original device which could lead to a more unstable system and to-date Microsoft's Q&A on their Xbox360 has not been good, still time will tell.

Re:Redesign might be nice

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm going to guess that you work in finance rather than electronics because you are correct about the cost savings while being completely wrong about the power.

By using 65nm technology or even smaller you don't necessarily produce a cpu (in this case a triple core) that runs at a lower temperature unless you can run the device at a lower voltage and current (Note: Power = Voltage x Current), if the power is equal then the overall surface area of the chip will be hotter requiring a much more efficient heat dissipation system.

The power is not equal. Going from 90nm to 65nm means smaller transistors -> smaller transistors will perform a successful switch using fewer electrons -> fewer electrons means less current -> less current means less power.

Shrinking electronics is a cost saving in real estate but you normally end up trying to dissipate the same heat of the original device ...

This ignores the extra real estate available for additional heat dissipation components. Also, if you combine multiple chips (as is eventually expected), it would significantly reduce both real estate and power consumption (on-board communication requires much more power than on-chip).

I think

[Jaaay]

they should focus on getting the HD-DVD right in a cheap package for the sake of killing blu(e?)ray. The Xbox 360 elite seemed to be a bit of a screwup making a slightly nicer new console and ruining the price advantage with the ps3 without much extra. Still you'd imagine this *has* to happen with more cost-effective building because even though the 360 is a very nice console they're still losing a lot of $ on the bottomline.

Re:I think

[kurokaze]

Why? by not bundling a HD DVD or BR player into the console, they have the best of both worlds. Should HD DVD fall, they can easily create a BR add-on drive.

As it stands right now, the format war is still a toss up.. no sense in packaging in something that could potentially kill you should you have happened to pick the wrong side.

Anyway, it is too late at this point.. adding either HD DVD or BR now is pointless since game developers cannot target it because its not a guaranteed feature (just like the hard drive.. oh lord what were they thinking... )

Re:I think

[amuro98]

What exactly would putting the HD-DVD drive into the 360 accomplish?

It's not used for games, and would only increase the price of the 360.

The vast majority of folks don't care about either HD-DVD OR Blu-Ray at this time. The reason being that they don't want to be bothered with being on the losing end of a format war. When there's a clear winner, or the dual-format players arrive, folks will start buying in meaningful numbers. Right now, Blu-Ray and HD-DVD combined make up less than 2% of the total video market.

Re:I think

[Anonymous Coward]

I know you hate Sony but face facts, the primary reason why you'll NEVER see a HD-DVD drive in the 360 is because it does not support 12x reading on standard DVDs.

Besides, MS will sooner release a BD add-on drive than to cripple the 360 with a soon to be dead format.

Re:I think

[LKM]

Why, did you buy a now all-but-useless HD-DVD player and want Microsoft to save your sunk investment?

This is why...

[cromar]

I generally stay well behind the wave of new systems coming out. The least important reason is that the new systems go down in price within a year or two. Mainly, I like to stay back and see what games come out and wait for their prices to fall to a reasonable level. Plus, the price of previous generation games goes down, too. I know there were good games after SNES/N64 (lol) but I still have NES and SMS games I would like to beat.

I can get 300 (cheap) to 50 (rare) SNES/NES/SMS/PS1/DC games for the price of one PS3 or XBOX. For me, it's all about the dollar-to-fun ratio.

Re:This is why...

[Anonymous Coward]

For a good dollar/fun ratio, try the classics. Chess, go, bridge, poker, backgammon.

Re:This is why...

[gEvil (beta)]

For a good dollar/fun ratio, try the classics.

The dollar/fun ratio becomes horrible when you factor in the cost of buying some friends to play with...

Re:This is why...

[Anonymous Coward]

That's nice and all, but are there any hardcore gamers playing more than 2-3 games REGULARLY, 5-10 overall? I'd go as far as to say 1 game, maybe 2, MMOs and FPSs. 350 different games sounds great on paper, but when do you get the time to play them all? 1-2 shooters, 1-2 racing games, 1-2 RPGs, 1-2 puzzle games, 5 party games, now you have 340 more games just collecting dust.

Re:This is why...

[Gojaroo]

I wish "fun" was an SI unit.

Re:This is why...

[WilliamSChips]

There are websites on which you can play all the games grandparent mentions.

Re:This is why...

[transwarp]

The American unit is the "barrel-full of monkeys."

Re:This is why...

[Anonymous Coward]

And the best thing about those websites is that they are populated exclusively by mature adults.

Re:This is why...

[Anonymous Coward]

The people who play online poker at triplejack.com are most certainly not "mature adults."

Re:This is why...

[Drew McKinney]

For a good dollar/fun ratio, try the classics.

The dollar/fun ratio becomes horrible when you factor in the cost of buying some friends to play with... Wanna know who plays old N64/SNES games? Hot chicks.

No joke. Three real-life examples:

1. My current girlfriend - loves MarioCart and most 64 games. Often explains that she could "whip my ass" as Yoshi
2. My neighbor "GeeGee" (runway model) - plays games with the old SNES scope in her off time.
3. My ex-girlfriend - played River City Ransom over and over and over again.

In conclusion, the poster may have trouble finding dude friends to play his old N64 and SNES games with, but no shortage of hot, geek-loving, runway model ass.

Re:This is why...

[Anonymous Coward]

There are websites on which you can play all the games grandparent mentions.

Website such as... ?

Re:This is why...

[mconeone]

I'm a fan of Pogo myself. There's also Yahoo games.

Re:This is why...

[Taulin]

I see where you are coming from, but I like to play what is new. I kind of used to be like that, but ~$350 for a new system is not much, especially since it lasts four or more years. If I know I will get it later, I say go ahead and get it now. You may have saved $100 by waiting a year or two, but those years of having the newest system are worth the money. Enjoy life. I don't care about the price of the PS3, there just isn't any games out for it...yet.

Re:This is why...

[Anonymous Coward]

You can accomplish the same thing for free by being gay, and that's just same because you're not getting laid by the hot chicks.

Don't forget the DVD drive!

[a16]

To be honest the fans on mine aren't so bad, it is fairly noisy, but kind of to be expected considering it is such powerful hardware in a small box. But the real issue is the DVD drive. Mine sounds like a jet taking off, non-stop, whenever playing a game. It's actually quite nice to play demos downloaded to the hard disk, as the console seems whisper quiet in comparison.

Re:Don't forget the DVD drive!

[Eponymous Crowbar]

The more recently manufactured models have relatively quiet DVD drives. I can't even hear mine over normal game audio and it is barely noticeable when the TV is silent.

Re:Don't forget the DVD drive!

[senatorpjt]

The PS3 is in a smaller box (especially if you consider the lack of an external power supply), and it's far quieter.

Re:Don't forget the DVD drive!

[prockcore]

The PS3 is larger than the original xbox.. it's much larger than the 360.

Sony is back to square 1

[suv4x4]

Imagine the losses Sony endures after they cut their price with additional $100. And now the competition leaves them in the dust again. Let's say MS puts the price with $50 down (let's be conservative right). Note, the prices have been de-retardified for better comparison:

Wii: 250 usd
360: 350 usd
PS3: 500 usd

And the killer feature for each console:

Wii: totally new way to control games
360: the best online gaming experience of all consoles
PS3: Blu-Ray

Notice: PS3's killer feature isn't gaming related one. One reason gamers aren't very excited about it...

Re:Sony is back to square 1

[Anonymous Coward]

I hate myself for going over this crap once again, but you apparently didn't read it any of the other times*: If you want online play on a 360 then the price is higher.

*Or maybe you're an anti-PS3 fanboy, but at this point why would anyone even bother? The horse is dead, please stop beating.

Re:Sony is back to square 1

[Anonymous Coward]

And, if you want online play on the PS3, I think Sony's official response was "fuck you".

Or something close to that, since they don't offer an online service. Instead, you have to use whatever system the game publisher uses.

So no global blacklist, no global friends list, no easy match making, no global gamer tag.

Even the Wii has better online support than the PS3.

Re:Sony is back to square 1

[suv4x4]

"Amazing! How can you keep talking while so much shit comes out of your mouth?"

2484 comments man. Practice makes perfect! Thanks for your concern though.

Re:Sony is back to square 1

[Anonymous Coward]

Hi, I just thought it extremely important to point out that the Wii is not, in fact, a totally new way to control games. Motion sensing has been in game controllers for over a decade. The only people not aware of that must have been born even earlier. Coincidentally, the target market for the Wii is 9-year-olds anyways.

Re:Sony is back to square 1

[suv4x4]

I hate myself for going over this crap once again, but you apparently didn't read it any of the other times*: If you want online play on a 360 then the price is higher.

I didn't know PS3 and Wii have free games? Like, you go in the store and they give you disks for free or something? The fact is, if I want to play online I can pay a fee and play.

What should I do to get the same experience on PS3? I could pay as much as I won't but I won't get it. And you're out $150 more for the initial purchase on top of that.

Re:Sony is back to square 1

[tb()ne]

I can't imagine that. I'm still too busy imagining the losses MS will take after their price cut, considering the 360 is still not profitable and they are going to shell out over $1 Billion to fix a blatant hardware defect.

Also, BluRay is gaming-related since it allows developers to provide more game content.

Re:Sony is back to square 1

[penp]

Coincidentally, the target market for the Wii is 9-year-olds anyways. Which is why so many people of all ages are buying them? I have a lot of middle-aged co-workers who haven't touched a console in their lives before picking up a Wii. The target audience for the Wii isn't 9 year olds, it's everyone. Anyone can enjoy a good game of Mario Party or Wii Sports. Sure, maybe the graphics are childish compared to your average zombie-stomp shoot-em-up, but even those can get old after a while.

Would you mind telling me which (successful) consoles have implemented motion sensing before? I can't think of any off the top of my head.

I, for one, am looking forward to Sadness.

Re:Sony is back to square 1

[fistfullast33l]

Actually, I would argue that the PS3 has more than Blu-Ray going for it - HDMI 1080p output (just bought my 46" 1080p TV this week and I'm completely blown away), 802.11g wireless, and a guaranteed hard drive - which helps with games like Oblivion and GTA which need heavy caching. Add in the nice stuff like the media server integration (streaming music wirelessly from my linux server to my PS3 works really well), PSP remote play if you have one (I do), web browser, and the ability to install Linux and you have a really nice machine. The thing for me isn't just a nice gaming machine - when it's all said and done I'm going to have a nice media center going with an BluRay movie player, 46" LCD, surround sound, my computer through the LCD for development, and the wireless keyboard and mouse. Is it worth the money for me to do this? Yeah, I like it. Are other people looking for this? Probably not. But the PS3 really is probably the sweetest setup you can get for total integration in the living room. I guess I'd rather have that then just a decent gaming machine.

Re:Sony is back to square 1

[trdrstv]

Sure, maybe the graphics are childish compared to your average zombie-stomp shoot-em-up,

You mean this one? PS - I wouldn't get your hopes up for Sadness, it has all signs pointing to Vaporware...

Re:Sony is back to square 1

[amuro98]

Well, Sony is introducing HOME, which will bring some of those features to the PS3, but I agree that the Sony should have had HOME ready to go prior to the PS3's launch and by not making HOME mandatory, you're still going to have a relatively disjointed online experience with the PS3 - assuming the game even SUPPORTS online - which many of the PS3's versions do not.

Re:Sony is back to square 1

[Anonymous Coward]

IMHO, the Wii's target market isn't 9 year olds, it's people who were 9 years old 15 or more years, and wish they still were 9, so they're buying up all the 15 year old (and older!) Virtual Console games, and replaying through their youth.

Because it sure as hell isn't the current game lineup. You've got Twilight Princess, and - nothing. The game lineup is actually less exciting than the PS3's lineup - if you ignore the Virtual Console.

The Wii's target audience is gamers who are too old to still be playing video games but are anyway. The true next-gen gamer is playing on the Xbox 360. It's only old has-beens who refuse to actually grow up and be adults who own the Wii.

Re:Sony is back to square 1

[Rev Fulton O Dollar]

When was "brilliant" redefined into "major ass-covering"?

Re:Sony is back to square 1

[SparkyFlooner]

From what I've seen, HOME is a bloated way to hook people up online. I like the streamlined 360 online features. I don't want to have an Avatar walk around meeting other Avatars. It's pointless. I AM the Avatar. Just cut out the middle man and let communicate directly with people. And I don't want to walk my Avatar down to the shop to shop for something. Just show me a menu. That's why I shop from home for things. Web sites make it easy to find stuff in a 2D list. I hate going to a store to look for stuff. I'll hate it even more having to go to take my little Avatar to a virtual store and look for stuff there, too.

Re:Sony is back to square 1

[Anonymous Coward]

From what I've read Microsoft will not all game designers to require HD-DVD, that may have changed, but when the consoles were coming out the PS3 offered around 60 gig, while the 360 offered 9 gig. That's a pretty big difference. Also freely downloadable games and game demos is pretty nice. Last time I checked the Xbox was the only console you had to pay for online gaming.

Re:Sony is back to square 1

[C0rinthian]

Says the Sony fanbitch. However I will at least give you the credit of not posting AC.

Re:Sony is back to square 1

[Joe The Dragon]

360: the best online gaming experience of all consoles Only If you pay $50 a year the other are free.

Re:Sony is back to square 1

[AdmiralWeirdbeard]

XFlop? Thats one of the most retarded things I've *ever* heard a sony fanboy say. And considering the sample, thats saying something.

Brilliant price cut? If that's what we're calling desperate moves to avoid losing a console war by being waaaaay to expensive, ok. But since I'm pretty sure its only you saying that, fuck off. $500 is still too expensive, and I'm in their target demographic of decently well-off gamers with high-end video display devices. They made too hardcore a machine and its biting them in the ass.

Re:Sony is back to square 1

[Anonymous Coward]

Also, BluRay is gaming-related since it allows developers to provide more game content.

Just what I always wanted. Twice the content (read: movies), with twice the loading time!

(The PS3 reads off Blu-ray at twice the speed the PS2 reads off DVD. Unfortunately, the jump from SD (640x480) to HD (1920x1080) bumps the amount of texture data up almost SEVEN TIMES, causing PS3 games to load nearly THREE TIMES SLOWER than PS2 games!)

Re:Sony is back to square 1

[BoberFett]

I guess me and my friends who are all at least 31 years old DIDN'T actually get together and play several hours of Mario Party on the Wii last night. Thanks for setting me straight and letting me know that any game which isn't Zelda is simply a figment of my imagination.

As for playing the Wii meaning one is not an adult, you're just a fucking idiot. I'm not sure what more can be said about your lame opinion.

Re:Sony is back to square 1

[IrquiM]

I haven't noticed much more movies in the games I've played compared to, let's say 360. Or did you think BD that came with the console was a game? What I've noticed is that I still haven't had to change discs to get the textures on the next event.

By the way, you cannot do calculations they way you're doing it... it's just not how it works

Re:Sony is back to square 1

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude, if you're still playing video games at 31, and Mario Party at that - well, really, there's no more that needs to be said. But I will anyway: grow up! Fuck, you're apparently in your 30s!

Video games are things you're supposed to outgrow during college as you enter the real world. Dude, Mario Party in your 30s?! Wow.

Re:Sony is back to square 1

[Khaed]

psst, I don't own an X-Box, or a PS3, but if I was offered a choice of one free, I'd take the 360, and here's why: BioShock, Grand Theft Auto, the possibility of FF13 NOT being exclusive, oh, and so I'd get my MS Fanboy card so I'd be allowed in on the meetings where they decide what to bitch about Sony next. ;)

Re:Sony is back to square 1

[Kalriath]

Brilliant? BRILLIANT? IT'S STILL TWO GODDAMN PAYCHECKS!

That said, I certainly am not howling in any form of pain whatsoever. My Xbox360 is much cheaper than the ridiculously overpriced PS3.

Re:Sony is back to square 1

[amuro98]

From what I've seen of HOME, I agree with you. Sony has some opportunities to do something new and interesting with HOME, but so far, they seem intent on clubbing themselves in the head. Case in point - Sony claims you will NOT be able to customize your avatar with gear from other games for fear that having a whole group of people dressed up as Dante from Devil May Cry, for instance, would detract from the online experience. Idiots. I'm betting that people would pay REAL MONEY to purchase costume elements from their favorite games to decorate their avatars. Combine this with the personalization that the Wii's Mii system offers, and you get a sort of virtual cosplay gamer community. Better yet, get the games to allow you to use your avatar (with its costume) as well. For instance, take your avatar, dressed up as Dante, into Tony Hawk's latest title. Or, play a round of football with your friends, each dressed in their own unique fashion...

That would be nifty, unique (mostly), and something I'm sure many would at least try once or twice.

Re:Sony is back to square 1

[BoberFett]

Funny, I never got the memo that recreational activities were the defining traits of adulthood.

Pray tell, what the hell do you do which makes you think you're an adult?

Re:Sony is back to square 1

[xero314]

Brilliant? BRILLIANT? IT'S STILL TWO GODDAMN PAYCHECKS! If $500 is "two goddamn paychecks" then I would suggest you spend less time playing games and more time improving your marketable skills (possibly by finishing high school).

And no, I'm not defending the price of any game console.

Re:Sony is back to square 1

[MBraynard]

Hiya,

The 360 outputs 1080p. You can have HDMI if you get the high end one (which I believe is also only true of the high end PS3.)

360 also has wireless (though it is overpriced) and all models also have a hard drive now.

You should be able to stream your music from your nix server pretty well, too.

So no web browser, but that's not something I would ever want to do on my TV.

I think the other features you are looking for are also covered by the 360 - wireless mouse and keyboard available, HD DvD is an option, too.

Re:Sony is back to square 1

[ShaggyIan]

Dude, let the AC troll go hungry tonight. . .

The Wii's target audience is gamers who are too old to still be playing video games but are anyway. The true next-gen gamer is playing on the Xbox 360. It's only old has-beens who refuse to actually grow up and be adults who own the Wii.
AC apparently has no concept of making money, only interest in being a "true next-gen gamer". I'm guessing his criteria for adult happens sometime around "sex with a non-imaginary woman". I'm also guessing that he might not be there yet. . . it is /. after all.

My 70+ father got a Wii last week, and I hear every day how much he's enjoying it. He obviously needs to grow up, so that he can properly give his money to someone else for a game he doesn't want to play.

The fuckwad hasn't shown any propensity for rationality yet, why assume genius would strike now? If you're not peddling an overpriced entertainment system, what do you care what he thinks? Fucking retard new "g4m3rz" think they know everything. . .

Re:Sony is back to square 1

[ShaggyIan]

Maybe he's paid every day. . . You don't know.

(I'm typing this while laughing and nodding my head at the fact that someone else already wrote what I was thinking)

Re:Sony is back to square 1

[king-manic]

Imagine the losses Sony endures after they cut their price with additional $100. And now the competition leaves them in the dust again. Let's say MS puts the price with $50 down (let's be conservative right). Note, the prices have been de-retardified for better comparison:

Sony produces the PS3 in house, In the half a year since launch they should have significantly ramped up yield and reduced production costs. unless you have really good info I wouldn't bank on Sony taking a huge loss, they stopped takign a loss on the PS2 shortly after launch and the PS1 never was sold at a loss. The only consoles known to be sold at a loss are the PS2 for a brief period, the DC, The Xbox and the 360. The PS3 was speculated to have been sold at a loss but Sony doesn't do that shit and has never confirmed it. It's high initial price tag is likely because they didn't wish to sell it at a loss.

Re:Sony is back to square 1

[Katmando911]

But if you go the route of elite(high end model with HDMI) plus the HD-DVD drive, you end up paying more than you would have with a PS3. Cost aside, the PS3 will have games that use the extra space provided by Blu-Ray but I'd be very surprised if the 360 ever gets any games that use the extra space provided by HD-DVD.

Re:Sony is back to square 1

[Kalriath]

Maybe I'm not in fucking America.

Re:Sony is back to square 1

[xero314]

Oh, let me rephrase.

If the cost of a PS3 is "two goddamn paychecks" then I would suggest you spend less time playing games and more time improving your marketable skills (possibly by finishing your secondary education).

That should make more since to people not residing in the United States.

Or maybe I am wrong and you live in a country that has no use for marketable skills. But being as you are posting on slashdot, in english, and know what a video game console is, I'm betting that's not the case.

Re:Sony is back to square 1

[Kalriath]

Or maybe I'm in a country where a goddamn paycheck generally is $700 and a ridiculously overpriced PS3 is $1400.

Do all Americans assume the rest of the world is just like them?

Re:Sony is back to square 1

[Anonymous Coward]

AC apparently has no concept of making money,

If you're so poor that getting a Wii over a Xbox 360 is financially important, you might want to consider reprioritizing things.

Seriously. You're talking $150. (Well, maybe more like $300 if you consider that the Wii only has one good game.)

Re:Sony is back to square 1

[Anonymous Coward]

That should make more since to people not residing in the United States.

I lol'd

Re:Sony is back to square 1

[senatorpjt]

Yeah, I keep hearing this stuff like "I don't have a HD set, so it's worthless." Well, yeah, the PS3 is pretty much worthless if you don't have an HD set. I hooked up my PS3 to a SD set, and tried all my games on it. It doesn't really look much better than a PS2. However, if you do have an HD set, especially if it's 1080p, I can't see how the PS3 isn't the best deal.

Re:Sony is back to square 1

[dabraun]

However, if you do have an HD set, especially if it's 1080p, I can't see how the PS3 isn't the best deal.

Because the 360 delivers the same level of graphics, immensely better online gaming, and a far larger library of solid fun games at a lower price? (the 'fair' comparison being $400 360 vs. $500 PS3)

No HD: Buy a Wii
HD: Buy a 360 (and maybe a Wii too)

Want to pay a premium to watch one of the few HD movies? Buy a PS3 ... or just go with the 360 and use the video marketplace - it probably has more movies than you can get on BluRay anyway (which isn't saying much, there aren't that many movies on xbox video marketplace, nor are there many BluRay movies)

Re:Sony is back to square 1

[bigstrat2003]

Apparently you're in a country where you've never heard of speaking in a civilized fashion to your opponent in a debate.

I live in America, and I don't assume the rest of the world is just like me. However, guess what? This is the frame of reference I have. I can't help it that I don't live in your country and don't have your frame of reference. Furthermore, until such time as you said you aren't "in fucking America", it wasn't entirely unreasonable to assume you were. The Internet transcends countries, but there are still a hell of a lot of people in America, and on an English-speaking web site, hosted in the US (far as I know), which regularly discusses issues pertinent primarily to US citizens (pretty much any politics or YRO article I've ever seen)... it's not entirely unreasonable to assume that you, too, live here (until you say otherwise, which you did).

I grant you that it's still an assumption, and we all know what happens when you assume, but as far as assumptions go, you could do far worse.

Also, where the hell do you live, that a PS3 costs $1400? And surely any other console would be similarly priced (a 360 for $1200, for example)?

Re:Sony is back to square 1

[MBraynard]

The Elite has a 2x larger HD. So you can have many Live games on there or other media you purchase. And, well, HD-DVD is superior anyway, and if a few dollars is getting in your way..... (heh)

Re:Sony is back to square 1

[LKM]

Not sure how online works on a 360 (I don't play often enough to pay), but as far as I can tell, the friend list on the PS3 is used by the games. Startdust, for example, knows my friends' high scores. What exactly is a global friends list, and why does the PS3 not have one? What would they have to do to make matchmaking easier? And how is Sony's system different from the gamer tag?

Re:Sony is back to square 1

[LKM]

I agree. Home is a stupid idea. Reminds me of all those "3D virtual stores" we had a decade ago where, instead of just searching for what you wanted like you can on modern online stores, you had to virtuall walk through a virtual store and click on the stuff you wanted information about. It's a 2D screen, the most functional UI is 2D.

Home looks interesting, but it's no replacement for what the 360 offers. It's an entirely new idea for an entirely different target audience.

Re:Sony is back to square 1

[Das Modell]

However, if you do have an HD set, especially if it's 1080p, I can't see how the PS3 isn't the best deal.

What if the PS3 doesn't have games that I like playing? I don't understand why some people buy an expensive console and an even more expensive 1080p HDTV just so they can look at pretty graphics.

Re:Sony is back to square 1

[KoldKompress]

And we could make it so that you can program your own content, and people could buy it! With fake money from a currency exchange.. I'm suprised no-one thought of this before.
Oh... wait..
Having a bunch of people dressed up as Furries, Footballers etc would be terrible. It'd be like if Salvadore Dali and Stanley Kubrick had a child, beat the child, made him into a game programmer and gave him LSD.

Re:Sony is back to square 1

[Anonymous Coward]

I would ask where you got the idea that he said games were free, but it's quite obvious you won't have an answer. Online play on the 360 costs *extra money*. I would have thought you'd have noticed. I certainly did. My xbox cost more than my ps3 once I added the removed parts, like wifi and chargable controllers. Add to that the 3-5 years of online subscriptions I'll be paying, and the PS3 is a bargain. The online experience isn't quite as polished as the 360's, but it's not like it can't be updated.

Re:Sony is back to square 1

[ShaggyIan]

If your such a fucktard as to not comprehend my point was about SELLING consoles, not buying them, I understand why you have to post AC.

My father makes more money retired than I make working. Either one of us could buy any console we want. Each could buy all the consoles twice if we wanted. We don't want to. I'll probably buy a 360, but not until the hardware problems are fixed, and the price comes down. My father will NEVER buy a 360. He's 74, and doesn't like most games. He could give two shits about being a "true gamer". He does however, have lots of disposable income, and he likes the Wii. He will spend money on Wii games and accessories.

The Wii is a cash-fucking-cow. People who haven't ever owned a gaming console are dropping money on them. The day of the "true gamer" is possibly heading for sunset. Why sell one million copies of a game to the hardcore when you can sell ten million copies of a simpler game to the casual? Microsoft has already stated they are interested in that market (which gets a big "no shit").

So "grow up and get a 360"? Everyone I know personally who has a 360 is still in grade school. Everyone I know with a Wii has a job paying way more than poverty level.

The Wii is changing the gaming world, whether the fanboys want to admit it or not.

Re:Sony is back to square 1

[ak3ldama]

In all fairness Microsoft is missing a massive window of opportunity. Sony has had their console priced too high for a while now, and with no games to fight back. Meanwhile Microsoft has had a slightly lower price but more games. The only problem is their hardware is unreliable on an epic level. If they could have fixed this the word would have gotten out and they could have put a stranglehold on the market. Not to mention the online experience from the 360 is leading the pack.

Re:Sony is back to square 1

[Anonymous Coward]

No one ever said "grow up and get a 360". All that was said was "grow up and stop playing kid's games". Which is good advice.

Re:Sony is back to square 1

[amuro98]

Yeah, yeah, "Why...it's second life!" - only the currency is real.

Even so, if I'm going to be forced to use Sony's HOME to do anything online, I'd rather it look like an explosion at a virtual fandom cosplay con, rather than having everyone wear the same drab, Old Navy-ish garb we seen so far. Ooh. I have a blue shirt. He has a slightly bluer shirt. Wow, that's so amazing!

Re:Sony is back to square 1

[Khaed]

And -- who are you to say how another person should spend their LEISURE time? Is his playing the Wii personally hurting you?

No?

Then FUCK OFF.

I seriously don't understand this predisposition people have against other people's entertainment. Do you watch sports? Aren't those games played by kids? What do YOU do for fun? Other than post stupid shit on /. anonymously, anyway. Too scared to post with an account? What -- not mature enough?

Seriously, what's an "adult" way to spend ones time? Jerking off to porn on the internet?

Re:Sony is back to square 1

[Kalriath]

Also, where the hell do you live, that a PS3 costs $1400? And surely any other console would be similarly priced (a 360 for $1200, for example)? No, actually, the PS3 weighs in at $1000-$1400 (depending on if you trade in an Xbox360 or PS2 or not), but an Xbox360 still only costs $800 (or $500 for the core system). The core system here is nearly as cheap as the Wii, at $450.

Bear in mind, any hostility in this debate is completely well founded considering the original response to an incredulous comment about how the PS3 price cut was still anything but brilliant was pretty much "finish high school, get an education, and get a real job" - I have a more than sufficient job thanks. Earning in the region of ~$50K is considered quite well off here - but still requires all of the surplus from two of my fortnightly paychecks to buy a PS3.

Re:Sony is back to square 1

[fistfullast33l]

You forgot to add the premium for XBox Live - $50 anually - so figure about $450 for the initial investment and another $50 for every year afterward. And that assumes that PSN will never catch Xbox Live in functionality - which I'm pretty sure it will. Games are getting better at implementing friends lists and microphone support. It's nowhere near Xbox Live right now but give it a year and it'll be there.

Re:Sony is back to square 1

[senatorpjt]

Yeah, it's the movies. Considering the size of the movies, you can't fit too many on the 360's disk. I do have a sufficient TV to make bluray worth it.

I certainly didn't get a 1080p set so I could watch DVD's (although, they are fine for non-visual movies)

Re:Sony is back to square 1

[xero314]

the original response... was pretty much "finish high school, get an education, and get a real job" The original response was actually saying that it would probably be more productive to spend time improving skills that are useful to the world than playing video games, unless you are in school still, in which case you should just be patient.

I still stand by that original statement since you have neither said what country you are referring to nor given any reason why you should be worrying about the cost of video game consoles when you can't afford one at your current income level.

Re:Sony is back to square 1

[ChaoticLimbs]

You know, if I could design my avatar to look like ME and then use that avatar in most or some of my games, I would LOVE that. Think of this: multiplayer shooters with your friends, each dressed as your friends, so you don't have to read their name to call out a warning of impending doom. Rick! To your left! would happen faster, and these avatars could span multiple games so you'd still recognize people you met in another game.

SKU

[locokamil]

$rant = "Stop using SKU in everyday conversation."

For those of you who need it spelled out, run this at the command prompt: perl -wc split ('', $rant)

The correct term is 'model'.

Re:SKU

[poot_rootbeer]

$rant = "Stop using SKU in everyday conversation."

What term would you have us use instead? "Model"? "Version"? "Edition"? None of those terms have as clear and unambiguous a meaning as SKU does.

Re:SKU

[Applekid]

So people are going into stores asking for SKU 204714487 instead of the 360 Elite?

It's worth noting that different stores may assign different SKUs to different items, which isn't unambiguous. UPC would be a better unambiguous code. Make/Model is actually the most consumer friendly (360 Core, PS3 80GB, iPhone 8G).

Why isn't it used? Because some gaming industry insiders wanted to elevate themselves in a shroud of exclusivity and elitism and you can't do that by using acronyms and terms that are already used in language and common knowledge.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to CYA on these TPS reports ASAP or we're FUBAR and BVD or BYOB, PDQ.

Re:SKU

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes. Because an SKU, or "Stock Keeping Unit", could just mean a new bar code for anything from a new model to a previous model bundled with a game or an extra controller.

Re:SKU

[Anonymous Coward]

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to CYA on these TPS reports ASAP or we're FUBAR and BVD or BYOB, PDQ.

QED!

Re:SKU

[C0rinthian]

But does it have a HHDDVVDVBVD player? Personally, I'm waiting for the Nintendonut.

Re:SKU

[Aladrin]

Yes, but that's only significant is the manufacturer creates the bundle. When that happens, it -does- matter to talk about them differently, as both the price and value-for-money change.

When a retailer creates a bundle, MS still counts the box as the same SKU sold, and only the retailer has a new SKU in the system.

I still can't figure out why it bothers -anyone- when SKU is used to describe a specific item for sale, especially when the topic of conversation primarily deals with price and specific items. "Get off my lawn!" maybe? Things change. If they didn't, we wouldn't even exist.

Re:SKU

[Anonymous Coward]

I always assume that anyone who uses SKU in conversation works in retail. That's the only reason I can think of.

So every time you tell me about a SKU, I'm picturing you earning minimum wage behind a counter at EB.

Re:SKU

[Anonymous Coward]

And we're supposed to take tips on "everyday conversation" from someone who structures his communications as a fragment of PERL source? Riiiight.

Re:SKU

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry, that won't work. First, you're not printing anything. Second, you're not joining the array with any kind of delimiter, so it'll come back out just as it went in. Third, you're not executing it, you're just compiling it with warnings -- and since $rant isn't defined in your little script, and will produce a warning. Not to mention it's not even quoted correctly, so the shell will try to evaluate the contents of the parens in a subshell.

Next time, try:

perl -le 'print join(" ",split("","Stop using SKU in everyday conversation."))'

Re:SKU

[locokamil]

Whoops! Brain was fried. The fact that it was at 10 in the morning makes it even more disturbing.

Re:SKU

[Psychochild]

Actually, the reason the game industry uses the term "SKU" is because it is a common term for referring to software. If I bring out one of my games on three different platforms (consoles, etc.), then I have three different SKUs. The term "model" is incorrect in this case.

I suspect that Microsoft, who also publishes game software, is being consistent with terminology. (Ha! For a change!)

But...

[Red Mage 13]

Will it run Linux?

Price Wars

[pokerdad]

Why is it considered a given that Nintendo will not enter into this price war? As the one company that we know for sure makes a profit on each console, it seems they could most afford to. While some might argue they are already the cheapest, the margin by which they hold that title may soon be eroded. I predict a good size price drop by Nintendo in time for the holidays.

Re:Price Wars

[hardburn]

Because any further price reduction would only make the shortage of Wii's worse. If anything, they should increase the price to stop the shortage, but that'd likely hurt long term customer goodwill.

Re:Price Wars

[gad_zuki!]

A cheaper wii probably isnt the way to go. After spending some time with a wii, I was stunned at how terrible the graphics were. I swear my gamecube looked nicer. I'd love to see them release a box that looks better than a 1990s era PC game running a geforce3 card.

Re:Price Wars

[ironwill96]

And your prediction would probably be wrong. They are STILL having trouble keeping the Wii in sufficient supply on the store shelves in some areas, so why lower price? It's the basic principle of supply and demand. If supply is too much and demand is weak, lower the price to change the sweet spot on the supply demand curve so they are more equal. The wii is not over-supplied (yet) and there is still sufficient demand, so lowering the price would be a stupid move for Nintendo.

At this point i'd say the 360 needs to do a $50 price drop to really keep the edge against Sony in the console wars. They are probably a lot closer to producing not at a loss at this timeframe in development too, so they should be able to afford a $50 price cut. I think Sony will be losing even more money as their manufacturing surely hasn't dropped in price that much from when they launched last fall.

Re:Price Wars

[Anonymous Coward]

The Gamecube cannot possibly look nicer, because the Gamecube and the Wii are the same thing. In fact, during the initial E3 demo of the Wii, they just took a Gamecube and attached a Wii controller to it.

Re:Price Wars

[edwdig]

Why is it considered a given that Nintendo will not enter into this price war?

Companies drop prices to increase sales. Since launch, Wiis have been selling as fast as Nintendo can make them, with no signs of that letting up. Lowering the price would just mean less profit for Nintendo.

Re:Price Wars

[Anonymous Coward]

This is Slashdot, where companies that attempt to make money are evil and cutting prices on something that sells out immediately at the current price is the only thing that makes sense to save long term profits. Other people's copyrights are safe to ingore, but the GPL must never be. Having invested a million dollars developing content X, companies/people should then price that content at the cost of distribution.

Its all quite comical in the end.

Re:Price Wars

[amuro98]

Why does the 360 need a price drop? Halo3 will drive demand through Christmas. Then drop the price in the Spring.

There's not even a reason for the 360 to react to the PS3's price drop. At $500, the PS3 is still more expensive than even the 360 Elite, and does nothing to address the PS3's shortcomings in the games department. Yes, I know Lair! Warhawk! Heavenly Sword! But these titles will be coming out at the same time as Halo3, which is just going to overshadow everything this fall/holiday...assuming that those PS3 games can live up to the their hype as being system sellers.

Re:Price Wars

[Wildfire Darkstar]

Related to that is the fact that since Nintendo has shown repeated difficulty meeting their current sales demand, they have absolutely nothing to gain by increasing that demand. When Wii sales cool down enough that they're actually staying on shelves for more than five or six minutes on end, then a price cut would make sense. Until that point, it's counterproductive.

Re:Price Wars

[ShaggyIan]

Their current strategy is to poke into a broader market. Particularly, the untapped market that Nintendo is dominating right now. Their execs have frequently said they "know $199 is the sweet spot".

While I see your Halo3 point, how many folks do you see drooling over Halo3 that don't already own a 360? They might even drop the price right around Halo time to really boost sales (especially of the Core system, which would then be right around the "sweet spot").

I see very few system sellers scheduled for this year. Sony usually owns those (e.g. GTA), but lost some of them.

Xbox division profitable when?

[alvinrod]

Back in May there were articles floating around that Microsoft expected the Xbox division to be profitable in 2008. However, they've recently decided to offer an extended warrenty to customers in order to deal with the high failure rate of the Xbox 360. An earlier Slashdot article has this estimated to cost Microsoft around one billion dollars.

The earliest reports pegged the Xbox as costing about five hundred through seven hundred dollars to manufacture, a loss of a few hundred dollars on each console sold. This article published around the time of the PS3 launch puts the cost of Xbox 360 components at around seventy dollars under the final unit cost (manufacturing and other costs were not calculated into this figure so it may be safe to assume that they were breaking even or close to it at that time).

With the costs of the new warrenty (in addition to any costs that can be associated with the honoring existing warrenties to cover the high failure rates of the console) and cutting the price which changes the profitability on each unit sold, when does Microsoft now expect their Xbox division to become profitable?

Re:Xbox division profitable when?

[dunezone]

When does Microsoft now expect their Xbox division to become profitable?

When it comes to the console being profitable it really starts to go at the end of its life(Unless your Nintendo and your using older technology to offset the costs with the Wii). I mean Sony is a perfect example, even though their losing alot on each PS3 that is sold the PS2 sold like crazy this past Christmas and its nearing the end of its life.

As for the division being profitable, I think a huge hurdle for the industry as whole is that the industry has changed in the game development area. Fifteen years ago you could develop/produce a game with a team of three people with minimal costs. Now a big name title will easily have fifteen people working on it, if not more, take several years to put together and cost millions.

Re:Xbox division profitable when?

[WarwickRyan]

Maybe the warranty charge comes this year, so they can declare the profit next?

Re:Xbox division profitable when?

[Hedgethorn]

I believe Microsoft took the $1B that the new warranty program will cost and applied it to fiscal year 2007. So, 2007 is an extra billion dollars in the hole, but since they don't have that baggage hanging on them in 2008, it's still possible that they might turn a profit in 2008.

To say the same thing in a more cynical way, if you play with the numbers enough, you can make whatever year you like profitable.

Re:Xbox division profitable when?

[ivan256]

Fifteen years ago you could develop/produce a game with a team of three people with minimal costs. Now a big name title will easily have fifteen people working on it, if not more, take several years to put together and cost millions.

Most of those millions go to licensing, marketing, and occasionally name-brand voice talent.

Regardless, Microsoft doesn't rely on that stuff for their gaming division to be profitable. All they need to do is sell the 360 for the same or more than it costs to manufacture it, then sit back and collect royalties on those expensive games (even if those games fail to turn a profit for their developer).

Unfortunately for them, they can't sell the 360 at a profit and still compete with Sony on price, and marketshare is more important to them than profit right now.

Re:Xbox division profitable when?

[ShaggyIan]

To enhance, they expect to turn a profit in 2008. From Gamasutra:

In a call to Microsoft investors, Bach and Microsoft CFO Christopher Liddell explained that despite the $1 billion the company will incur from the new initiative, the overall health of the Xbox business is very strong.
Liddell added that he was "disappointed in the result from a financial perspective," but that in Microsoft's view "customer satisfaction" was the priority, saying that the undertaking would "strengthen the long term health of Xbox business."
Liddell also said that despite the charges, the company was not updating its fiscal 2008 guidance, with Bach responding to a question saying that the September release of "four letters called H A L O" would cushion the financial blow.

Re:Xbox division profitable when?

[shplorb]

With the costs of the new warrenty (in addition to any costs that can be associated with the honoring existing warrenties to cover the high failure rates of the console) and cutting the price which changes the profitability on each unit sold, when does Microsoft now expect their Xbox division to become profitable?

It will be considered profitable when they're bringing in more money each quarter than they're spending. This is where I don't get it, but maybe that's because I grew up in a family business and not some billion dollar publicly listed company. I'd only call it a profitable division when it has recouped all of the money that's been poured into it. Apparently they're still $5 billion or so down, which from what I can tell means they'll never make any money back on the division unless they can churn out consoles for $100 each or something and refrain from making stupidly overpriced acquisitions like Rare.

If you ask me, it'll never be profitable by my definition. If some big shareholders think the same way I do then in a couple of years they might start asking questions about Microsoft being in the hardware business and they could end up doing a Sega. I mean, if you poured billions into something you'd be expecting a return after almost ten years, wouldn't you?

Re:Xbox division profitable when?

[halycon404]

Your forgetting to factor in game sales. Project Gothem, Forza, freak'n Halo, etc etc etc. All of these fall under the Xbox letterhead, and they make the company millions because they are all first party, and some of the best selling games on the platform, and that doesn't even factor in subscription costs from Xbox Live. If the Xbox is going to become profitable its not going to be on the console alone, its going to be on game sales and subscriptions. And heck, Halo 3 alone had the chance of making the console profitable by 2008. Halo 2 was the most played game on the 360 untill gears came out, and its still pegging in the top 10. As soon as 3 hits you'll have thousands of consumers rushing to by a 360, plus halo 3, plus subscription costs. Thats a massive influx of cash to the Xbox brand.

Re:Xbox division profitable when?

[Anonymous Coward]

The $1B is a pre-tax charge against profits from this past quarter. It's a tax benifit for Mircosoft as much as anything. Microsoft isn't even really spending the $1B, it's just an estimate which includes the worst case scenerio of repairing EVERY box bought since launch.

Performance drop?

[Red Mage 13]

Would this downgrade cause any overtly noticeable drop in performance?

Re:Performance drop?

[Zelos]

This isn't a downgrade, it's just reducing the physical size of the chips. Performance will be identical.

Re:Performance drop?

[Broken scope]

What? You don't reduce the performance of a console? I'm, sorry but that is really the most asinine thing I have ever seen someone say.

All they are doing is going with a smaller manufacturing process and refining the hardware. What in gods name makes you think that they will defeat the whole purpose of the whole console paradigm.

1 performance standard for cheaper dev and less confusion for customers.

Re:Performance drop?

[BoChen456]

' [quote] Would this downgrade cause any overtly noticeable drop in performance? [\quote] A better chip manufacturing process is not a "downgrade" at all. Really its an upgrade in every way: 1. Cheaper to manufacture. 2. Uses less power 3. Runs cooler. 4. Takes up less space. The uses less power / runs cooler can in fact be traded off for more performance by overclocking.

Re:Performance drop?

[Anonymous Coward]

In fact what may happen, in the benefit of platform consistency, is that newer consoles may have faster but have underclocked components. Maybe not in the case of custom chips like the PS3's, but more standard components may need an underclock.

In Brazil the Sega Genesis is still manufactured and sold in an el-cheapo package. I don't remember the exact clock ratings, but the processor that comes with it is a severely underclocked 68000 - that is, they buy the slowest processor available today and underclock it to maybe 1/20 of the speed.

(They also removed a Z80 that was only used by the Master System adapter and, if I remember well, Virtua Racing).

Re:Performance drop?

[penp]

What? You don't reduce the performance of a console? I'm, sorry but that is really the most asinine thing I have ever seen someone say. Ironic much? When all you have to go off of in the summary is:

Called 'Falcon', it's a cost-reduced system using 65nm chips instead of the at-launch 90nm electronics not everyone is going to understand the difference. A lot of people read 'cost-reduced' and think 'less performance'.

Re:Performance drop?

[Broken scope]

Sorry, I guess I just assumed that most people here understand the entire point of the "console".

Pardon me for assuming that most computer inclined people would understand the basic concept of chip manufacture processes.

you get what you pay for

[192939495969798999]

i dont know any great studies about xbox 360 initial quality, but it seems that there were some complaints around. If the board/hardware was responsible for issues before, one can only assume that a reduction in price based on a cheaper board/electronics will result in more issues... this seems like a major problem considering microsoft is spending a billion already to boost the warranty service, etc. It's interesting to watch how their system issues play out a lot like what working on some microsoft-based software projects end up doing, i.e. various issues, cutting corners to save $ as issues persist and cause sales slump, and so on.

Re:you get what you pay for

[Broken scope]

The funny thing is, I know plenty of people with working launch boxes, but I know plenty of people with boxes bought during the summer of 06 that are breaking frequently. Considering that they have issues with chips popping off boards and bricking the systems it makes me wonder if these issues are caused by removing the usage of lead in solder to comply with RoHS and bad planning. The company I work for is having major issues with chips popping of BGA connectors because the silver solder is so brittle. We didn't have the issue with lead because it can handle the flexing.

Just because a hardware revision introduces cheaper components doesn't mean they are lower quality, just as expense doesn't imply quality. They could have come up with a design that is more reliable and cheaper to make. Improvements could have been made to current parts that make them cheaper. It happens in every console generation. Also as stated above, Im not convinced tis a component failure as much as it is a connection failure. Partly because they manage to send out old boards so often. The problem can't be that extreme for them to be able to reuse old boards. If Im right and it is something as simple as they don't have a good solder then who knows how long it could take.

Re:you get what you pay for

[Kelbear]

It's not the same. It's not saving money by switching to a lower-quality manufacturing process. This is saving money by switching to a more efficient technology. This one is actually an improvement for the consumer as well. The quality will depend on who handles the actual manufacturing, the process itself is a step up.

The biggest issue with Xbox360 reliability was insufficient heat management, this process will reduce the amount of heat and power. So this is pretty much good news for everyone except anyone with regret for having bought earlier and wishes they had waited for a new revision. And for what it's worth, I'm on my 3rd xbox360.

Re:you get what you pay for

[Mockylock]

I've actually had mine die on me and I took a benz-o-matic to it to heat up the chips again and get it working. Shitty, I know.. but, desperate times call for desperate measures. The second time around, it melted the solder out from under the ram.

OOPS.

Though your chances of running into a bad one are 1 in 3, it's a damn shame considering it's such a great addition to media center and such. I'm not even trying to repair it.. rather than just waiting for the 65nm, because it's just a matter of time before the 90nm overheats again.

Re:you get what you pay for

[Anonymous Coward]

As a board designer who has a lot of experience with Foxconn (the build house that Microsoft contracts to make 360's) I am 100% not surprised that there are so many reliability issues. My company has had nothing but trouble from them, and we have a lot of fallout from ridiculous things that should never happen. At one point, they had put a DAC on a pad which required an OPAMP!!!! (the footprint was the same) on a build of about 400 boards. Needless to say, things kind of worked for a short amount of time, then were blowing up in bad ways. RoHS compliance is the least of our issues with Foxconn.

Re:you get what you pay for

[Anonymous Coward]

Interestingly enough, other posters are saying that Foxconn is Nintendo's manufacturer too.

Of course, the Wii probably has a much simpler board and that may reduce the risk of these sorts of manufacturing issues.

MOD PARENT UP

[Anonymous Coward]

I also am sick to death of "SKU" being used. It's a damned number! It doesn't mean what you think it means, or are trying to make it mean.

XBox 360 4.0?

[TKOTolman]

Am I the only one out her that is sick of the 360 and PS3 coming out with different systems? I feel that if I buy a 360 or PS3 now it will be a mistake and they will have a new version out in a year that has a 200Gig hard drive and folds my laundry. I want a next gen system that is set in stone where I am not going to feel like I got riped off in a year when they tweak it again.

Re:XBox 360 4.0?

[cowscows]

I would think that anyone who's paid attention the electronics/computer world for the past couple of decades would have come to terms with the fact that the "biggest and best" is a quickly moving target, and the fact that something newer comes out doesn't mean that what you bought six months ago suddenly stops working.

You might "feel" like you got ripped off, but you really didn't. It's definitely possible to not worry about such things, and so that's what I'd advise, because worrying about it isn't going to accomplish anything positive anyways.

Re:XBox 360 4.0?

[Anonymous Coward]

How did you find out about Sony's secret Laundry Folding@Home project? Who broke the NDA?

Re:XBox 360 4.0?

[Doctor_Jest]

Funny thing is, you can update your PS3 to any size HDD you can fit in there (youtube even has examples of using external 500GB 3.5" drives.. not practical, but doable...) So, unless they add "super pursuit mode" in the 80GB model... you're not getting _that_ much more than a 20GB has... (FWIW, I have a 20GB updated to 120GB for all of $75...) And my 360? Still at 20, because MS is greedy with their drive pricing...

Sad that the 360 HDD is limited to what King Bill says you can have... unless you hack it, then they won't let you play in their sandbox (understandable, but the HDD issue is a big deal for the 360... why make it so hard?)

So, rest easy... the PS3 is pretty much set for the next at _least_ 6 or 7 years... They aren't adding anything new to a console this lifespan... besides smaller parts and cheaper manufacturing...

OTOH, the way MS dropped the original XBox like a bad habit... I'm not so sure... (Shades of Sega, anyone?)

Re:XBox 360 4.0?

[Anonymous Coward]

Except rumble on the controllers...

Re:XBox 360 4.0?

[RyoShin]

To be fair, this isn't just a Microsoft or Sony thing. Nintendo is already planning a version of the Wii with DVD capabilities (and perhaps a few other enhancements, such as more internal memory or a built-in ethernet port) to be released before the end of '08. We've had remakes of the DS and the GBA (twice!) from them; it a shared reaction amongst the big three, though at least Nintendo waits a few years before releasing a new model, generally stopping production on the old one soon after.

Re:XBox 360 4.0?

[TKOTolman]

Ya I got a Wii and if they upgrade it to a DVD player I don't care I have like 5 with PS2's and normal DVD players. But if they add a hard drive and its not something I can plug into my Wii that I have now thats going to suck. I think my lesson is to not get into the next gen systems for a few years tell they are done switching them around. I don't know of any old systems doing this, the 64 had a little pack and the PS2 had the hard drive but those where addons. Its like they all rushed the next gen to the market before they had any idea the final product they wanted to put out.

Re:XBox 360 4.0?

[Doctor_Jest]

Rumble's overrated to me. I turn it off when I can... it adds nothing to the game for me. I've played for decades without it... the last-gen gimmick is not my idea of a "must have"...

but since the lawsuit's over... the Sixaxis is getting it I am sure.

Re:XBox 360 4.0?

[iainl]

Even before the skinny, flip-top PS2 came out there were 10(? 11? I can't quite remember) variants of the machine's insides. In particular, the last few of them already had the smaller die, fewer consolidated chips layout that subsequently went in the tiny one, and a quieter fan to match. So they're not exactly the first.

Also: GBA to GBA SP to GBA Micro.

Re:XBox 360 4.0?

[Das Modell]

I was initially going to wait for the 65 nm version, but after it was first mentioned in 2006 I hadn't heard anything since. So I got a 360 last Wednesday. Now the 65 nm version is coming, but it probably won't hit Europe until 2008. Even if I had known when it's going to come (or when I suspect it's going to come), I wouldn't have waited.

This shouldn't be a problem to most people, since most people can easily afford a new 360.

Wii Nunchucks (off topic)

[nickyj]

Not all the games require the nunchuck. In fact things like Mario Party 8 (4 player) the nunchuck is only need for special 1 player games (like story mode). I have 4 WiiMotes and 1 nunchuck, not once have I had to use the nunchuck for multiplayer games. Perhaps RedSteel is the exception, but that game sucked (I own it and regret it).

Re:Wii Nunchucks (off topic)

[Phisbut]

I have 4 WiiMotes and 1 nunchuck, not once have I had to use the nunchuck for multiplayer games. Perhaps RedSteel is the exception, but that game sucked (I own it and regret it).

The only reason that I bought a second nunchuck so far is to play Wii Sports Boxing... I indeed have yet to see another game using/requiring multiple nunchucks.

Re:Wii Nunchucks (off topic)

[Toonol]

Marvel Ultimate Alliance supports up to four players and the nunchuck is required for each to play.

Also, that bubble shooting game, whatever it's called... it supports up to eight simultaneous players, and it does so by allowing play with either the nunchuck _or_ the wiimote.

Now that I think about it, I bet Elebits multiplayer requires the nunchucks, also.

Re:Wii Nunchucks (off topic)

[trdrstv]

Marvel Ultimate Alliance supports up to four players and the nunchuck is required for each to play. Also, that bubble shooting game, whatever it's called... it supports up to eight simultaneous players, and it does so by allowing play with either the nunchuck _or_ the wiimote. Now that I think about it, I bet Elebits multiplayer requires the nunchucks, also.

Sure. I would imagine Every FPS would need it too, however there are MANY games that don't require it. Smash bros for Example won't. Madded, FIFA, and NBA 08 won't. Tiger Woods doesn't. Warioware doesn't. etc...

Also some of the games that require are single player (Zelda, RE4, Mario Galaxy, Metroid Prime, Godfather, Scarface) and there's always the one included with the system. Had WiiSports Boxing allowed me to use 4 remotes instead of 2 Nunchucks, I wouldn't have needed a second nunchuck yet.

Re:Wii Nunchucks (off topic)

[Sciros]

Oh, I know that few games require the nunchuck for multiplayer at the moment, but the Wii's going to get more games soon (and for a while, I'd hope), and I would think some good ones might require nunchucks in multiplayer. And Nintendo's controllers won't drop in price before that happens, and probably never, I'm fairly certain.

When they've earned their digital media monopoly..

[ivan256]

Microsoft doesn't remember how to make money without owning the entire market. It seems clear that their plan for the 360 is to get themselves into a monopolistic position with their codecs, DRM, and interactive content combination. Once they've done that they can fall back on their traditional innovation stifling, market milking business model. They don't necessarily care about having a profitable gaming division. What they really want is the ability to collect a royalty every time somebody buys digital media, and to use their new monopoly to shore up the old ones. Getting Xboxes into a majority of living rooms is step one in that process.

Compare this to Sony, who in response to all the hacking on the PSP made attempts to make the PS3 as open and compatible as they could while still keeping third party developers satisfied that piracy wouldn't be rampant. Allowing Linux on the PS3 (as opposed to being a completely closed platform), using DLNA/UPnP media services (instead of limiting the user to Windows Vista/MCE), including a variety of memory readers (instead of the traditional memory card/Sony MemoryStick only), allowing transit of content between the PSP and the PS3 so you don't have to pay for content twice if you want it on both platforms, etc... Plus they're completely open about the fact that they're using the PS3 to push BluRay adoption.

Sony does wrong and the community is willing to shun them forever, but for some reason they're willing to trust Microsoft to not be up to no good, even though their gaming division's bottom line suggests that they have an ulterior motive...

Wow great

[Dr Kool, PhD]

The 360 "Elite" didn't fix the reliability issues, what makes anybody think that this new version will be any more reliable? Microsoft has had 20 months since launch and they still can't ship reliable consoles.

Re:Wow great

[Mockylock]

The Elite was still 90nm. 65nm is a smaller and cooler chip.

As long as all of the chips (rather than just the gpu and such) are changed to 65nm... it should make a huge difference in reliability.

The change can be directly correlated with differences in Pentium 4 and Core 2 Duo heat transfer.

Re:Wow great

[valathax]

The elite does come with a reinforced mainboard as described at thoughthead.com. http://thoughthead.com/?p=67

"Main board scans from the more recent Elite consoles have shown a reinforced main board surrounding the processors, and this change is likely also reflected in newly produced units as well."

In addition the elite also has epoxy to help reduce flexing of the GPU in relation to the mainboard. http://www.llamma.com/xbox360/news/inside_the_xbox _360_elite.htm So far I have not heard about reliability issues with the elite, as far as I know they have been addressed. It would be nice if you could cite a source indicating a high failure rate on the elite, in particular a high rate of 3RLoD failure.

Re:Wow great

[kannibal_klown]

The Elite wasn't much of a redesign. It was a different color case, with a hard drive installed, and HDMI. That means the only thing that required any real changes were the HDMI which either had a placeholder prepared since the beginning, or was a minor revision. Everything else looks like it's the same part; ie done to offer out the product with minimal cost and changes to the assembly line. Going 65nm could mean that they're re-designing more than before (like changing motherboards, etc). Granted, they may cheap out and just swap out the CPUs and (whatever else) with its 65nm analog, but it's possible that this kind of change might do enough under the hood to allow them to fix the Ring-Of-Death bug too. To use the car analogy (which I hate).

• When updating a Cadillac CTS for 2007 they didn't change much, just the interior options, sound system, etc. So the known quirk they have with the rear differential remained because the parts stayed the same.
• When releasing the CTS for 2008, they're redesigning a lot of it (new body, new engine, new suspension, etc). Since they're redesigning it anyway, they might as well fix the quirk. So the chance of them finally fixing the underlining problem.

Re:Wow great

[MBraynard]

Yes, and the CTS is a helluva car, especially the V. Work of art, work of art.

New features

[llZENll]

The built in power supply would be a nice benefit, and use a quieter DVD drive and I'll get one. Built in HD-DVD would be nice, but not many people would want it, and the addon HD-DVD drive is already under a $100 at some places, very smart not including HD-DVD from the beginning.

What other features could they build into it with the added room of smaller components? No one really thinks its too big, so changing the case probably isn't a good idea at this point, although it would be nice.

Re: Hard Drive Optional was good...

[trdrstv]

game developers cannot target it because its not a guaranteed feature (just like the hard drive.. oh lord what were they thinking... )

They were thinking Console games shouldn't require multi-gig installs. That's actually a "hidden benefit" of the core system, developers can't use it as a crutch. If you know anyone with a 20 gig PS3 (and didn't upgrade the hard drive) ask them how long it took before they filled it up just playing the games they bought (IE, no added content downloaded from PSN).

Doesn't make sense.

[hey!]

This really doesn't make economic sense.

Sure, after a while the prices of parts comes down. But in the meantime you've lost sales and market share to the competition. And since your revenue is dependent on game sales, this is only shooting yourself in the foot.

Furthermore, you get bigger discounts on parts when you order them in larger lots. So anything you might save is lost by buying in smaller quantities.

Finally, there is some truth to the idea that a modest shortage can help spur customer demand, but within limits. Too much shortage and people turn to the competition.

Nintendo claims that their problem is that they've contracted out manufacture and can't ramp up production as easily as if they had their own production lines. I don't think this is the entire story. There's tons of contract manufacturing capability in the world, and the Wii uses standard, mature (and therefore cheap) technologies. This has been going on long enough that they could have brought other manufacturers online if that were the only factor.

I suspect that the inability to ramp up production is related to the Wii's low price. It is certainly not the case that they could not have brought more production capabilities on line by now, but it may be that they can't build more at the price they need to build them. They may have structured their deal with Foxconn (the OEM) in such a way that it is cheap but not scalable. For example, they may have agreed to limit the number of units to a degree that can be produced by certain slack resources at Foxconn, that are otherwise engaged in higher margin work.

I'm talking through my hat here, since I know zilch about manufacturing. But I'm reasonably certain the problem is that they can't scale their production at the price they want to sell these things for. If they could, then they would, maybe not enough to keep everybody's shelves stocked to overflowing, but enough so that you'd consider driving around to find one. My son wants one for his birthday coming up, and I told him that while I'd be happy to shell out the dough, there was no way I'd spend the time it would take to track one down. They're losing market share to the competition because of situations like this.

Re:Doesn't make sense.

[Applekid]

While I don't disagree, I'm not sure I'd follow on losing market share, though. The Wii is unique enough that people would ask for it by what it does and not because they want gameConsole++. Nobody is going into a store looking for a Wii and walking out with a 360 instead. I don't think a similar price point would make that happen, either. I'd even go so far as to say that each of the three consoles are so separate in strengths that nobody would go into a store looking for any of them and then shrugging and buying one of the other as an alternative.

Unless by "losing market share to the competition" you mean, like, going outside and playing on the lawn or something. ;)

Re:Doesn't make sense.

[acidrain69]

I wouldn't say *NOBODY* is going in for a Wii and coming out with an Xbox 360, especially when price cuts are around the corner. Sooner or later, there are people that will get sick of waiting.

Re:Doesn't make sense.

[Mr2001]

Well, I bought my Wii in January (retail store, no extra markup, just an hour of driving around to find a store that wasn't sold out), but I probably would've gotten an Xbox 360 instead if it'd been available for the same price.

Re:Doesn't make sense.

[senatorpjt]

After two weeks of trying to find a Wii, I gave up and bought a PS3.

Re:Doesn't make sense.

[Ginger Unicorn]

there's loads of them on ebay all the time

Re:Doesn't make sense.

[cnelzie]

If you really want a Wii, all it will take is one to two weeks of searching.

    My wife and I did so back in November of 06. You know, right shortly after the launch of the Wii when NOBODY was finding them anywhere. We looked around, called around, discovered when shipments usually arrived at stores and worked our lunches from work around those time periods and checked one or two places on those set days.

    My wife walked into one of those stores, the guy was taking them out of the box to put them on the shelf. He ended up handing every unit straight from the box into the hands of "hungry" shoppers. (This was during the holiday season, too.)

Re:Doesn't make sense.

[senatorpjt]

I wouldn't buy from ebay scalpers out of principle.

Re:Doesn't make sense.

[Ginger Unicorn]

all the ones i saw were at retail price, so i suppose that means they arent scalpers. I know what you mean, i wouldn't pay more than the retail price for a brand new item on ebay.

Wii Graphics - Not terrible

[fhage]

As someone who has a 52"HD TV and has both the GameCube and the Wii, I can assure everyone that the Wii's graphics are better than the GC. The Wii provides a very clean 480p signal from it's component output. I have GC games that turn on more effects when played on the Wii, so Gamecube games actually may look and run even better on the Wii. Nintendo's current hardware is very compact, quiet, and uses little energy, unlike other consoles I own. I find the graphics a Wii or a GC produce are far from "terrible", and often are more pleasant than the graphics produced by higher resolution systems, especially PC's.

Re:Wii Graphics - Not terrible

[Nightspirit]

I love the Wii, but the graphics ARE terrible. I've had xbox games that look better than any Wii game out right now. While I agree that it takes time to tap the full potential of the hardware, the graphics right now should at least be noticeably better than the gamecube, not "might be slightly better than gamecube, maybe".

Re:Wii Graphics - Not terrible

[trdrstv]

I love the Wii, but the graphics ARE terrible. I've had xbox games that look better than any Wii game out right now. While I agree that it takes time to tap the full potential of the hardware, the graphics right now should at least be noticeably better than the gamecube, not "might be slightly better than gamecube, maybe".

I think it's Ironic then that I still put RE4 for the Gamecube above any X-box games in terms of graphics (better than "Black" and REmake, and RE0 used the same tricks as Ninja Gaiden and look just as good for it), and the Wii has an improved version of it.

Re:Wii Graphics - Not terrible

[Nightspirit]

Yah, but that's sort of my point, can you name a Wii game (other than the RE4 remake) that looks as good as RE4?

Re:Wii Graphics - Not terrible

[trdrstv]

Yah, but that's sort of my point, can you name a Wii game (other than the RE4 remake) that looks as good as RE4?

I think we have a difference of opinion on what defines "terrible". I wouldn't call Rayman Raving Rabbit's graphics "Terrible", nor Elebits, or even WiiSports. None are pushing advanced effects, or textures, or lighting, but each has a style that suits them.

To anwser your question though, I feel RE4 will be the graphics bar for the next few months on Wii. It is currently the best looking and most advanced in terms of graphics on the system, but I feel it shall be outdone in short order by Umbrella Chronicles, Mario Galaxy, or Metroid Prime 3.

Until then however... Leon stands alone...

Re:Wii Graphics - Not terrible

[LKM]

There are a bunch of Wii games that look great. Sonic is very pretty. I like Mario Strikers, too. I actually like Excite Truck, but here, opinions very. I will say, though, that there are a lot of Wii games that look like shit. These are often PS2 ports (Godfater, for example). It's not that the Wii couldn't do better, it's just that the developers don't really try.

Hopefully, this will improve soon.

Wii

[brucmack]

It makes sense that the Wii won't drop in price as quickly as the others, as 1) it's selling well, and 2) the hardware is more mature, so there won't be as drastic manufacturing process improvements in the short term.

The "cheaper" 360 may be better

[steveha]

I have actually been waiting for this "cheaper" 360. I don't like noisy fans, so I want a 360 that dissipates less heat. The new 65nm process chip will dissipate less heat and, I hope, will not require the fans to be as loud.

What I really want is the new 65nm chip combined with the improved heat-pipe cooling system, and quiet fans. If the new "cheaper" 360 still has noisy cheap fans, I hope Microsoft will introduce a "Mega Super Elite" version that has a bigger hard disk or something, and has more expensive fans. It should have a quiet optical drive too.

steveha

Re:The "cheaper" 360 may be better

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually it's mostly the DVD drive that's noisy, and they started to use a quieter brand of drive earlier this year.

Re:The "cheaper" 360 may be better

[R. Chance]

It should be better than any current model in most respects (although the hard drive size is not mentioned). They are not talking about reducing the processing power, RAM, hard drive or graphics. The reduced price / heat production / power consumption comes from a shrink in the die size of the processor to a 65 nanometer manufacturing process from a 90 nanometer process. Looking at a number of the posts above, they seem to think "cheaper" means worse performance... it should mean better performance.

Re:The "cheaper" 360 may be better

[p0tat03]

I too would like a quieter 360, the current iteration is just too loud. But keep in mind that a cooler machine will NOT be much quieter. If you ever run your XBL Arcade games, you will find that the Xbox is fairly whisper quiet. It's audible, but definitely not a nuisance at all.

The HUGE amount of noise comes from the third-rate DVD drive MS has in there. I don't know why it is that my 52x DVD drives in *all* of my computers are all whisper quiet, including the $30 crap ones, but somehow MS is unable to do the same in their machine.

SQLGuru is a moronic conspiracy theorist

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not saying he's any dumber than most conspiracy theorists... I think that he just isn't in a "hurry" to engage in rational thought.

warning: long and ranty.

[Khaed]

He posts anonymously on /. with his elitist attitude about entertainment, and that makes him mature.

Some people enjoy pointing out how "immature" or "childish" someone else is, or their choice of entertainment. Generally, in conversation, these people also point out how mature they are all the time -- it's insecurity, like those homophobic wankers who point out how "gay" this or that is all the time. Basic projection and insecurities.

To me, it's a true sign of creativity to make something enjoyable by different ages. It's very hard to make something that children can understand and enjoy that also captures the attention of adults. Anon probably hates on Harry Potter*, but it's "immature" entertainment that many people of varying ages enjoy. The Wii does this: People of all ages enjoy it. It's not aiming to be the same as other consoles. I think this pisses off fanboys of other consoles, like the Anon in this case.

Simple fact is, the Wii is selling, despite not being the elite graphical engine in the bunch. Because it appeals to a larger audience than the PS3 or X-Box (at the 1 year mark, see where the Wii stands compared to the 360 and PS3 sales -- November isn't that far off...). This doesn't mean the other consoles are bad (though I dislike Sony and think they really screwed up this generation), just different. Some people are just weird and have to hate anything that competes with their precious. Anon is, with all probability, a rabid Playstation fan who is extremely pissed that the little old Wii is kicking the snot out of the PS3. It's no longer "in" to hate on Nintendo -- grow up.

*I've never read a word of Harry Potter, myself, but I don't hate it.

Falcon Hell!

[Antarius]

Falcon? WTF?

If we're going to use Atari-based platform names, why not just name it the "Jaguar" and be done with it. That way it'll tie in well with the one-game systems (Halo3 for "MS Jaguar," vs "Tempest 2000" for "Atari Jaguar")

On the bright side, this would mean that MS only has about another 12 months in them before some hard drive company buys them for a USD$3M Stock-Swap. Freedom fighters rejoice!

Re:When they've earned their digital media monopol

[antic]

"Microsoft doesn't remember how to make money without owning the entire market."

I disagree. I think they just see more upside to going for the whole market. Pick your battleground, etc.

If we know what SKU is being used to mean,

[patio11]

and we know what "model" is being used to mean, what difference does it make to use one versus the other? Its similar to using $variable notation in a Slashdot post: is that "good English" as your high school English teacher taught it? Who cares. It was comprehensible to your audience, leave it at that.

However, I will disavow all knowledge of the above paragraph if I am ever shown a memo with the word "lol" PRINTED on it. Unless the memo reads "All hands: use of the word 'lol' in any business capacity is now a firing offense".

Re:If we know what SKU is being used to mean,

[Anonymous Coward]

Lollygagging: What happens when I see lol.

Wrong

[LKM]

While the GC and the Wii are very similar, the Wii is an updated version of the GC. It's about 2-3 times as fast, so you're not going to see a big update in graphics, but it can definitely do more than the GC.

Re: Hard Drive Optional was good...

[kurokaze]

Perhaps, but if you were Microsoft, and you knew you were going to release a service like XBLA and Xbox Live Marketplace, wouldn't you have the foresight to include permanent storage on the console by default?

Crutch or not, I think someone dropped the ball over there.

Re: Hard Drive Optional was good...

[trdrstv]

Perhaps, but if you were Microsoft, and you knew you were going to release a service like XBLA and Xbox Live Marketplace, wouldn't you have the foresight to include permanent storage on the console by default?

Yeah... I hear you. Even if they were all add ons the HDD's should be sold as a discount, or come with free content from market place to offset their costs. Seriously, what else can you do with that big HDD besides fill it with premium content?

Then again MS has been big on "the network" including Media playback capability with any PC running Media Center, Vista, or now XP with Windows Media Player 11. Perhaps they were looking to explore that integration rather than the local hard disk.

In a perfect world, I'd love to download all my live content to my XP box (which has a few hundred gigs on it) and stream or "Dynamically cache" my content to the local HDD on the 360.