After all this discussion I've decided that there are no such things as inherent rights at all. ALL rights come out of the end of a gun. It takes a gun to enforce rights and to take them away. If there were any rights, they would be impossible to remove, no matter how powerful the weapon. You cannot talk about inherent rights if they can be taken away by 51% of the voters. Either they're inherent and impossible to take away or they have to be protected with a weapon, which would mean they're not so inherent. Right now the guns support your copyrights. Tomorrow it could all change. Are you going to go with the flow, or are you going to pick up a gun in an attempt to enforce your rights? What are you going to do when that 51% realizes the corruption of IP and decides you have no rights over other people's posessions? It IS possible, though not probable at this time. You do understand that all humans are living under the rule of might makes right(it's the ONLY premise on which anyone can base their rights...and laws), and if the anti-copyright'ers ever become mightier than the pro-copyright'ers, then all your mystical, magical rights disappear, "inherent" or otherwise. That you're presently on the winning side doesn't make you right. It just puts you in agreement with the mighty.
No one has any obligation to obey the edicts of those governments.
Even if they have copyright law? Does that mean that if China adopts American style copyright, we can continue to ignore it and copy Chinese music and movies willy-nilly because their gov't is not legit in your eyes? That kind of flies in the face of the things you state on the copyright threads. Or do we only have an obligation to obey American/European law because they appear to be elected by their peoples? Or if their laws match ours? Define legitimacy. Is it 51%? 10% with guns? 100 lawyers? What? We already have to many people that say that the 1st amendment of the American Constitition goes "too far" in protecting rights. What are you going to do when they become the majority and the amendment is eliminated? It will be legitimate, right? Are you going accept it because it's the law and demand that we obey it also? Good luck trying to change it legally if you don't like it.
Talking to you about copyright is like talking to a radical zionist or islamist about the Middle East. Can't get a logical response out of either one of you. Talk about the law when you have something to base it on. Demanding absolute obedience without question, without exception is not the way, believe me. To repeat: Unless I steal your personal copy, I have stolen nothing. I have only re-enforced my rights to do with my copy as I see fit.
If that ever wins an election, our problems will be solved.
So, sounds like you think the best way to change laws is to violate them?
Sometimes it's the only way. Bad law needs to be made unenforcable. In case you haven't noticed, too many laws aren't based on cogent arguments. They're simply bought and sold like company stocks. We've all seen entire groups being disenfranchised by the law and by the political system in general, who because they are a minority, they have no hope of ever changing the law with "legal" means. A system that lets 51% of the people tell the other 49% how to live is unsustainable over the long run. Soon it will be impossible to step outside the house without fear of trespassing on someone else's property(a posible intention of ALL property law). The law must change, and if we have to violate it to bring about that change in reasonable time, then that's what must be done.
Let's not forget the government's loss of control over the media as satellite dishes became popular. I'm not sure how it's affecting China yet. They seem to be very good at maintaining tight control over what info is coming out as far as the country's well being is concerned. Our own media makes it look all rosy with everybody driving nice cars and with new cel phones, etc. Must be the "Walmart" effect. Maybe if Walmart opens a few prisons...er..."factories" in Russia they might come out of their funk. I, for one, don't think the kids ignorance is a mere coincidence. This goes very well with whatever plans our gov't overlords have for the constitution and the country in general. This could be a first step into the prison society our "leaders" need to maintain a cheap labor pool for the giant corporations that will make Walmart look like a kid's lemonade stand. Good help is getting hard to find, and forced labor is becoming the corporation's last hope.
The cops can too. Great quote from the site: "Now, thanks to the war on drugs and the RICO Act, you can save thousands of dollars, when you buy your next vehicle."
If Evian's distro makes you sick, you can sue them. If anybody's(open OR proprietary) software wrecks your machine and loses your data, who are you gonna call? Your geeky nephew? Until we hold the proprietary companies accountable, we shouldn't even discuss F/OSS's "problem" in this area. When that happens, we can then hold any actual vendor of open and proprietary software responsible for what we bought from them. Free downloads would not be covered by this for all the obvious reasons.
Of course he thinks it's ok. He doesn't believe it could ever happen to him. He's very comfortable with the way things are. Please, don't rock the boat.
But if it happened to me, and it was because of the kind of "evidence" described here, I wouldn't feel wronged in any way.
Feel free to revise that statement after you have been wrongly accused and charged and fired from your job and had to spend thousands of dollars and up to a year or more to defend yourself. Speculation is easy. Until you actually experience it, you have no idea of how you're going to react. As more and more evidence comes out on how broken the system is, you are going to have a harder time trying to defend it. You "defense" of it here is pretty weak, and just shows that you may be benefitting too much from the status quo to ever, ever take a truly critical look at it. You're just too comfortable with the way things are to accept that there are serious problems that need correcting now. We should be up in arms. This is intolerable, and it happens more often than you would like to admit.
I know I'm old-fashioned, but I think coders should be paid for their work.
Why? So you can charge more for yours? Are you so worried about the "property" value of your IP? You really sound like you want to prohibit the free exchange of information or anything else for that matter. So what... Should all human interaction cost money? Should we all be so greedy to demand money everytime we answer a question? Lest they acquire something for nothing(god forbid)? Thank goodness there are some people out there who work for real progress and not just looking for easy, fast money. They are our only hope. Those who wish to maintain the status quo are helping nobody. So get over it and try to realize that your work is no different from mine, and quit looking for special entitlements that most people will never recieve. Obviously to you "free" is a four letter word, and the concept should be wiped off the face of the earth. You seem to think that economics is the only thing that should motivate people. I got news for you. Some of us can feel pretty rich without much money. Some of us consider simple peace of mind more than sufficient. Some of us feel actual pleasure when we give something away. Do you wish to deny me that? Just so you can keep your property values up? Yeah, I guess you are old fashioned. You think like a typical 19th century capitalist. They didn't like "free" either.
What are you saying? That China is somehow different than other countries? Is there some country where freedom, democracy, human rights, and equality under the law are actually put into practice, and not just a "view" or an opinion to be imposed on someone else? What exactly is the difference between the Communist elites and the old money European elites? I wish I could remember where I saw this: About the Roman Empire could be applied to European/American society, it was said that life inside the empire was great, but outside the walls was quite another story.
...Bush is going to be the Reagan of the 21st century.
Do you actually consider that a good thing?? Once we come out from under his(Reagan's) influence, that statement won't be the complement you may have intended it to be. Over time it will show that they(Reagan-Bush) ushered in the post industrial revolution dark age, a world run by the corporations, that will take decades, possibly centuries to reverse. And please, stop with the blathering about "democratizing" Iraq, or anyehere else. That's such a load of bull. The real intention there is re-colonization, to control their resources. Take a look at the history of American/European actions there. The last thing you will find is any attempt at "democratization". Man, your post sounds like a FOX news script. This talk of "left" and "right" is so ridiculous. It's meaningless, a distraction. Neither you nor I have even the slightest idea of what Saddam was or wasn't, what he did, or what motivated him. Unless of course, you're privvy to the classified info on how he got and maintained his power. He's a diversion designed to attract our attention away from other corrupt activities by the gov't/corp. This whole "terrorism" thing sprung up as a response to the real credibility crisis that the gov't was experiencing after the 2000 election(though it had been fomenting(?) for a long time beforehand). I have to say that it worked beautifully. That said, I don't blame Bush or any other politician for our enviromental, economic, or any other problems we might have. We gave him the power. So, if we need to blame anybody, just look in the mirror. Only there will anyone find the cause of their misfortunes.
Re:they would give traditional media good competit
on
XM and Sirius Merger?
·
· Score: 1
Maybe Clear Channel has no major stake in XM, but Clear Channel's owners might have. All these media, communication, transportation, companies have their fingers in the others' pies. Plus they own all sorts of other companies that make other consumer products, produce and distribute porn(I have nothing against that), etc., etc. These is no competition anywhere. You can't boycott one company and expect to have any effect on them. I just hope we'll still get Howard next year.
Another way of saying this is that America, by and large, has resisted adopting socialist programs...
Yeah, like the G.I. Bill, the interstate system, rural electrification, the defense industry(including aerospace), farm subsidies, oil industry subsidies, more recently the entertainment industry subsidies through extended copyright, etc. Believe it or not, you benefit immensely from these and other "socialist" programs.
him: "The chance of us using a nuclear weapon in anger is no more than the US using them in anger." you: This, simply stated, is a lie.
Can you name ONE country besides the U.S. that already HAS used nuclear weapons in anger? Forget it pal. The Americans are the same as everybody else, and if they get desperate, they'll be just as "happy" to throw those weapons around as any other country. History has proven that. No sir. You are the one that's wrong.
The America you "know" never existed. That was an illusion maintained by your parents, teachers, and people on the TV. It's business as usual, but the veil of civility is wearing thin and becoming a bit more transparent. Nothing has really changed at all, except the mail doesn't take three months to go from New York to California anymore.
There is no such thing as intellectual property, but as long as the law is on the books, and the movie industry expects us to obey these laws, they better obey them also. It's bad law that's being enforced very selectively, and maybe people wouldn't react so badly towards them if the law was applied to everybody equally. What makes bad law worse and easy to pass is the hypocrisy surrounding it. If the lawmakers and their cohorts had to actually obey the laws they pass, they wouldn't be so likely to produce these kind of laws. As always, it's up to us to make sure they do.
Slashdot Mirror
After all this discussion I've decided that there are no such things as inherent rights at all. ALL rights come out of the end of a gun. It takes a gun to enforce rights and to take them away. If there were any rights, they would be impossible to remove, no matter how powerful the weapon. You cannot talk about inherent rights if they can be taken away by 51% of the voters. Either they're inherent and impossible to take away or they have to be protected with a weapon, which would mean they're not so inherent. Right now the guns support your copyrights. Tomorrow it could all change. Are you going to go with the flow, or are you going to pick up a gun in an attempt to enforce your rights? What are you going to do when that 51% realizes the corruption of IP and decides you have no rights over other people's posessions? It IS possible, though not probable at this time. You do understand that all humans are living under the rule of might makes right(it's the ONLY premise on which anyone can base their rights...and laws), and if the anti-copyright'ers ever become mightier than the pro-copyright'ers, then all your mystical, magical rights disappear, "inherent" or otherwise. That you're presently on the winning side doesn't make you right. It just puts you in agreement with the mighty.
No one has any obligation to obey the edicts of those governments.
Even if they have copyright law? Does that mean that if China adopts American style copyright, we can continue to ignore it and copy Chinese music and movies willy-nilly because their gov't is not legit in your eyes? That kind of flies in the face of the things you state on the copyright threads. Or do we only have an obligation to obey American/European law because they appear to be elected by their peoples? Or if their laws match ours? Define legitimacy. Is it 51%? 10% with guns? 100 lawyers? What? We already have to many people that say that the 1st amendment of the American Constitition goes "too far" in protecting rights. What are you going to do when they become the majority and the amendment is eliminated? It will be legitimate, right? Are you going accept it because it's the law and demand that we obey it also? Good luck trying to change it legally if you don't like it.
Talking to you about copyright is like talking to a radical zionist or islamist about the Middle East. Can't get a logical response out of either one of you. Talk about the law when you have something to base it on. Demanding absolute obedience without question, without exception is not the way, believe me. To repeat: Unless I steal your personal copy, I have stolen nothing. I have only re-enforced my rights to do with my copy as I see fit.
Start with cogent arguments...
If that ever wins an election, our problems will be solved.
So, sounds like you think the best way to change laws is to violate them?
Sometimes it's the only way. Bad law needs to be made unenforcable. In case you haven't noticed, too many laws aren't based on cogent arguments. They're simply bought and sold like company stocks. We've all seen entire groups being disenfranchised by the law and by the political system in general, who because they are a minority, they have no hope of ever changing the law with "legal" means. A system that lets 51% of the people tell the other 49% how to live is unsustainable over the long run. Soon it will be impossible to step outside the house without fear of trespassing on someone else's property(a posible intention of ALL property law). The law must change, and if we have to violate it to bring about that change in reasonable time, then that's what must be done.
Let's not forget the government's loss of control over the media as satellite dishes became popular. I'm not sure how it's affecting China yet. They seem to be very good at maintaining tight control over what info is coming out as far as the country's well being is concerned. Our own media makes it look all rosy with everybody driving nice cars and with new cel phones, etc. Must be the "Walmart" effect. Maybe if Walmart opens a few prisons...er..."factories" in Russia they might come out of their funk. I, for one, don't think the kids ignorance is a mere coincidence. This goes very well with whatever plans our gov't overlords have for the constitution and the country in general. This could be a first step into the prison society our "leaders" need to maintain a cheap labor pool for the giant corporations that will make Walmart look like a kid's lemonade stand. Good help is getting hard to find, and forced labor is becoming the corporation's last hope.
The cops can too.
Great quote from the site: "Now, thanks to the war on drugs and the RICO Act, you can save thousands of dollars, when you buy your next vehicle."
If Evian's distro makes you sick, you can sue them. If anybody's(open OR proprietary) software wrecks your machine and loses your data, who are you gonna call? Your geeky nephew? Until we hold the proprietary companies accountable, we shouldn't even discuss F/OSS's "problem" in this area. When that happens, we can then hold any actual vendor of open and proprietary software responsible for what we bought from them. Free downloads would not be covered by this for all the obvious reasons.
Just what part of the software stack is missing?
The part with the SCO code.
Of course he thinks it's ok. He doesn't believe it could ever happen to him. He's very comfortable with the way things are. Please, don't rock the boat.
But if it happened to me, and it was because of the kind of "evidence" described here, I wouldn't feel wronged in any way.
Feel free to revise that statement after you have been wrongly accused and charged and fired from your job and had to spend thousands of dollars and up to a year or more to defend yourself. Speculation is easy. Until you actually experience it, you have no idea of how you're going to react. As more and more evidence comes out on how broken the system is, you are going to have a harder time trying to defend it. You "defense" of it here is pretty weak, and just shows that you may be benefitting too much from the status quo to ever, ever take a truly critical look at it. You're just too comfortable with the way things are to accept that there are serious problems that need correcting now. We should be up in arms. This is intolerable, and it happens more often than you would like to admit.
I know I'm old-fashioned, but I think coders should be paid for their work.
Why? So you can charge more for yours? Are you so worried about the "property" value of your IP? You really sound like you want to prohibit the free exchange of information or anything else for that matter. So what... Should all human interaction cost money? Should we all be so greedy to demand money everytime we answer a question? Lest they acquire something for nothing(god forbid)? Thank goodness there are some people out there who work for real progress and not just looking for easy, fast money. They are our only hope. Those who wish to maintain the status quo are helping nobody. So get over it and try to realize that your work is no different from mine, and quit looking for special entitlements that most people will never recieve. Obviously to you "free" is a four letter word, and the concept should be wiped off the face of the earth. You seem to think that economics is the only thing that should motivate people. I got news for you. Some of us can feel pretty rich without much money. Some of us consider simple peace of mind more than sufficient. Some of us feel actual pleasure when we give something away. Do you wish to deny me that? Just so you can keep your property values up? Yeah, I guess you are old fashioned. You think like a typical 19th century capitalist. They didn't like "free" either.
What are you saying? That China is somehow different than other countries? Is there some country where freedom, democracy, human rights, and equality under the law are actually put into practice, and not just a "view" or an opinion to be imposed on someone else? What exactly is the difference between the Communist elites and the old money European elites? I wish I could remember where I saw this: About the Roman Empire could be applied to European/American society, it was said that life inside the empire was great, but outside the walls was quite another story.
...Bush is going to be the Reagan of the 21st century.
Do you actually consider that a good thing?? Once we come out from under his(Reagan's) influence, that statement won't be the complement you may have intended it to be. Over time it will show that they(Reagan-Bush) ushered in the post industrial revolution dark age, a world run by the corporations, that will take decades, possibly centuries to reverse. And please, stop with the blathering about "democratizing" Iraq, or anyehere else. That's such a load of bull. The real intention there is re-colonization, to control their resources. Take a look at the history of American/European actions there. The last thing you will find is any attempt at "democratization". Man, your post sounds like a FOX news script. This talk of "left" and "right" is so ridiculous. It's meaningless, a distraction. Neither you nor I have even the slightest idea of what Saddam was or wasn't, what he did, or what motivated him. Unless of course, you're privvy to the classified info on how he got and maintained his power. He's a diversion designed to attract our attention away from other corrupt activities by the gov't/corp. This whole "terrorism" thing sprung up as a response to the real credibility crisis that the gov't was experiencing after the 2000 election(though it had been fomenting(?) for a long time beforehand). I have to say that it worked beautifully. That said, I don't blame Bush or any other politician for our enviromental, economic, or any other problems we might have. We gave him the power. So, if we need to blame anybody, just look in the mirror. Only there will anyone find the cause of their misfortunes.
Maybe Clear Channel has no major stake in XM, but Clear Channel's owners might have. All these media, communication, transportation, companies have their fingers in the others' pies. Plus they own all sorts of other companies that make other consumer products, produce and distribute porn(I have nothing against that), etc., etc. These is no competition anywhere. You can't boycott one company and expect to have any effect on them. I just hope we'll still get Howard next year.
Here. Now quitcherbellyachin'.
This is kinda close.
Another way of saying this is that America, by and large, has resisted adopting socialist programs...
Yeah, like the G.I. Bill, the interstate system, rural electrification, the defense industry(including aerospace), farm subsidies, oil industry subsidies, more recently the entertainment industry subsidies through extended copyright, etc. Believe it or not, you benefit immensely from these and other "socialist" programs.
him:
"The chance of us using a nuclear weapon in anger is no more than the US using them in anger."
you:
This, simply stated, is a lie.
Can you name ONE country besides the U.S. that already HAS used nuclear weapons in anger? Forget it pal. The Americans are the same as everybody else, and if they get desperate, they'll be just as "happy" to throw those weapons around as any other country. History has proven that. No sir. You are the one that's wrong.
Copyright --which, just so we're all on the same page, is the legal recognition of natural property rights...
On the contrary. Copyright is a government creation of artificial property rights meant to control the flow of information.
...and deathmarches are now common...
Heh. I thought you were talking about the drive to work. One thing I know is that if you don't have to drive every day, you're half way to nirvana.
... what happened to the America I used to know?
The America you "know" never existed. That was an illusion maintained by your parents, teachers, and people on the TV. It's business as usual, but the veil of civility is wearing thin and becoming a bit more transparent. Nothing has really changed at all, except the mail doesn't take three months to go from New York to California anymore.
"They say there are no guarantees the system will even prevent piracy."
Another winner from the snake oil sales people.
If he/she is a real genius, they will keep their name off the project, and anonymously put it into public domain.
There is no such thing as intellectual property, but as long as the law is on the books, and the movie industry expects us to obey these laws, they better obey them also. It's bad law that's being enforced very selectively, and maybe people wouldn't react so badly towards them if the law was applied to everybody equally. What makes bad law worse and easy to pass is the hypocrisy surrounding it. If the lawmakers and their cohorts had to actually obey the laws they pass, they wouldn't be so likely to produce these kind of laws. As always, it's up to us to make sure they do.
Personally, I felt the real problem was that we were given such poor choices to begin with.
Personally, I felt the real problem was that we made such poor choices to begin with. We can choose the right people at any time.