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American Airlines Information Gathering
matt-fu writes "Cory Doctorow posted a story on boingboing.net this morning describing a recent hassle while flying American Airlines. It seems that since he was traveling from the UK to the US with a Canadian passport, he was actually asked to give out the names and addresses of everyone he would be staying with in the US! He has written an open letter to AA in response. Has anyone else had something like this happen to them?"
Trying being a diabetic with an insulin pump. The security people aren't big fans of people with tubes coming out of them strapped to little computers.
This is probably an automated check on anyone with a 3rd country passport.
This is just another reason in a long list of why I should leave the U.S. and move somewhere more enlightened.
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools The way to dusty death. --Will
I smell a conspiracy!
They need to followup with the families to make sure none of them get mad cow disease.
allows for hidden laws to be passed, so almsot certainly this is one of them.
This probable isn't american airlines fault, but more due to government regulation. This isn't new however. I recall when flying from jamaica as a child a part of fillign out costums forms was declaring who you would be staying with. I dont' really think this is new by any means. coudl be something as simple as" hey if we find yoru missing luggage who do we contact?"
I havent been asked to give ALL addresses but every time i travel to the US I am asked where I will be staying...
I dont think its because of my beard either...doesnt everyone get asked this?
Yeah, something like this happened to me last time I was flying to Nigeria. They made me stay in the country, and I never did get that money I was supposed to get from Prince Nanawobob Jones...
Is why myself and a lot of people in Europe are currently very reluctant to go to the US, be it for business or leisure, even with the favourable exchange rate...
May contain traces of nut.
Made from the freshest electrons.
As a US citizen traveling to the UK I've had that happen on both trips. One with Delta, and one on
British Air. I can't say this kind of information request is polite, but I have always thought it rather common.
This is absolutely routine - and gratingly unnecessary - when renting cars from all of the major rental car agencies. It makes slightly more sense in that case (or can be justified slightly better by someone so inclined), because you're actually holding onto the agency's property, but I can't imagine a reasonable justification for an airline doing this.
It should be noted that I've declined that request when renting cars in the past and haven't encountered any problems larger than the manager's irritation.
he got that far, geeze im still stuck in the plane on the runway because the plane did not have enough fuel to fly all the way to its destination. And you think im lying...
I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes. - Catcher in the Rye
Having said that, those were not airline forms, but Immigration Departments'. Of course, the way things are in the US right now, maybe this is a new govt' measure ?
I went with my friend to pick up his german friend who was coming in from Germany and she didn't have his or anyone else's address in America. The custom's agent was apparently pissed and had to come out to find my friend to get an American address. This was all very weird to us and we had to wait for like 2 hours for her. So, I believe this is a US customs issue, not just AA.
I've had this question asked when I went to Costa Rica and Morrocco.
just figured it was an outdated, overblown 3rd world bureatic thing.
TripInvite.com: Group Travel Made Simple Evit
Yeah, here's a Broadband Reports Security thread about the incident.
I can't wait to hear what AA's response to Doctorow is.
dmiessler.com -- grep understanding knowledge
Um, I just flew to the UK recently, from the US with a US passport, and had to write down the address of where I would be staying. And I wasn't flying AA.
(Can't RTFA, already slashdotted)
Pulp Audio Weekly - Geek News and Reviews
I will be, uh, staying at 123 Fake St.
It sounds like American Airlines is using phantom TSA regulations to illegally gather information from foreign travelers.
I R'dTFA, and it just seems to stop short about half way through a conversation with a security supervisor. I looked twice and I couldn't find a link to a next page, or a link to the full text. Am I going blind? I suppose it's possible that boingboing usues some bizarre converntion of link hiding that I'm not familiar with, though I do consider myself net savvy.
Why not get the real ultimate power?
I've flown to the US (from the UK) with several different airlines, and I have to say that American Airlines gave me far more hassle than the others. My favourite bit was when I was travelling with a friend, and they separated us when we checked in to ask us questions like how long we'd known each other, how we met, etc. What did they think I was likely to say? "Well, we met at a terrorists' convention in 1998..."?
We want to liberate the world and set an example as a free country. Where is all the freedom the US is supposedly bringing? So far the US government is gradually restricting freedom for everyone. It is about time for Bush to live up to all his promises and begin respecting civil right and liberties again.
Alaskan Airlines.
Since I didn't have a frequent flyer account with them, they always had me selected for special treatment at security. (Hint: look for "SSSS" on your boarding card. That tells the TSA dimwit to wand you, disassemble your luggage and take away the tiny (1ml) tube of superglue that you forgot in your laptop case.)
Since I can't be bothered to sign up with them, I now just fly United instead.
That sounds pretty hot. Can you tell us precisely what she told you? I think I could put her story to good use as well, if you know what I mean!
Are they going to verify with the hotel to see if you are going to be there for the duration of your stay?
Or what if you gave an address which exists but where you will not be staying?
The question is, when they are going to be as intrusive as this, how truthful do you have to be?
Where are you staying?
With whom?
Let me see your return ticket.
Not so unusual.
It's a stupid thing. What's to prevent me from writing down 1234 Evergreen Terrace, Mr and Mrs Simpson?
ugh, but you go on believing that we're all safer because they don't allow silverware on planes anymore.
I signed my parents up with passport, because I was afraid they would not be able to fly without one. Turns out I was wrong.
I guess Micro$oft does not run all of the world.
And if my parents and the banks like M$ maybe it is only 1% evil.
System V rules the world!
Peace.
This is a standard practice in most countries -- When you are arriving with a visitor/landing visa, they want to collect the addresses and names of people you intend to meet/stay with so that they know how to track you down if you overstay your visa. I had to provide this information when I went to Japan, and Korea.
I think this guy needs to chill out. I could think of a few security reasons why they'd want to know who you were staying with. One of which is just to check legitimacy of your reason to be in the US. You say you're going to be with a friend, but can you on the spot name that friend and his address? I think it would be rather difficult to make up an address on the spot, especially one where if they look in up later, actually exists.
Don't take life so seriously. No one makes it out alive.
American Airlines has to be tough; their planes were hijacked on 9/11.
I mean, if I fly to the US intending to wander round and find a hotel that looks nice to stay in, but don't know ahead of time where i will, in fact be staying, will I get detained at the airport?
I gots ta ding a ding dang my dang a long ling long
Or else he'd know this is common all over the world. What's uncommon is when you're *not* asked.
"Whenever the cause of the people is entrusted to professors, it is lost." ~ V.I. Lenin
Cory Doctorow is a moronic, terrorist-sympathizing commie tool. We shouldn't be letting him in this country at all.
Yeah, right. Go shake down the 200,000 illegals from the south of the border.
When you fill out customs forms entering foreign countries, you are usually required to state where you will be staying. Hotel, residence, whatever. I had to do it going to Japan, and my wife's cousin had to do it when entering the US coming from Japan.
Actually the story is pretty funny, she didn't have my in-laws' address with her, and she had to get the help of the customs agents to make some phone calls to find it.
What is the big deal anyway? As a foreign national on a tourist/temporary visit visa, I don't find it unusual or unnecessary to ask for this info.
-molo
Using your sig line to advertise for friends is lame.
Either I've been smoking too much crack or my memory is shot, because I'm pretty sure I've been required to do that every single time I've flown to America (to visit family, first time was in 1999). I have a Danish passport and usually fly via Iceland, with Icelandair, but have also flown via the UK.
There's the usual "I will not commit terrorist acts" but also a section where you list who you will be staying with.
In 2002, I didn't have my cousin's then NY address handy, so I made one up. Good thing they didn't check up on it.
Funny story: On one trip, I had a present with me for a wedding, and had to take a national connecting flight from Boston to Baltimore. They had these things where they check for various trace chemicals that would indicate explosives. It of course went off five times on my suitcase, so the guy had it opened and went through it, item by item.
Finally he got to the present, a bottle of Gammel Dansk (a bitter alcohol), which was wrapped. He asked me what was in it, I told him. He then asked me if I had spent time near or on a farm previous to my flight, all the questions that would explain why I had trace chemicals on my luggage, but there was no apparent reason. He eventually let me go, when I started commentingthat I had to catch the connecting flight.
During the carry-on check, I realized I had a box-cutter in my pencil-case. There were also a couple of blades that were just floating around in there along with the pencils & pens. As the guy was rummaging through literally everything, including the pencil-case, I gotta admit I got a bit nervous that he would cut himself. He didn't find it, though. So much for thoroughness, heh.
My aunt was less lucky. She had her knitting pins confiscated and they almost ruined the cake she was bringing for the wedding.
"Who are you staying with?"
"ummmm....."
[ratchet up the questions to the next level]
Someone might read it over and plug in the address into a computer. A bogus or marked address might raise a flag, they'd call ahead to your destination and have customs meet you at the gate.
Yeah, give a bogus address, that'll show em.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Now only if they would have done this prior to 9/11. Everyone knows the best way to stop/track/eliminate terror is to inquire from passangers meaningless information.
Good idea. America has the right to implement a sound immigration and border policy.
Just think of the number of terrorist attacks this invasion of privacy prevents each year.
Unfortunately, I am not Wil Wheaton
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Boingboing.net also has users submitting their "experiences" of pad-downs by security personnels, while others were watching?
Getting asked where you are going to stay at is a standard legal immigration requirement in most countries. But now that you've written a letter, maybe AA will represent you at the UN for their next human rights convention and present your pressing needs (no, not the pad-down stories...).
... and Cory's being more of a dolt than I would have expected if he really thinks it was.
... after about 40 minutes of this, I insisted on seeing a supervisor, saying "Look, dammit, I'm an American citizen. I was born in the USA. My parents were born in the USA. Hell, I'm a quarter blood Choctaw Indian -- I'm a Native American native american!"
That being said, I had that experience entering the US from Canada on a US passport in about 1996. Missed my flight in Pearson airport (Toronto) while I was going through the interminable questions ---
Q. Where are you going?
A. North Carolina
Q. Why are you going there?
A. I live there.
Q. What do you plan to do there?
A. I'm a computer consultant.
Q. Do you have work when you arrive?
A. Yes. That's why I live there.
Q. How long do you plan to be in the US?
A. Until I leave again. I live there.
Q. Where do you plan to stay?
A. At my home. The one where it says "Home Address." In Durhan NC.
The demand that I speak with a supervisor broke the log jam; they let me through.
My grandfather, many years ago when I was eight or nine --- which is to say many years ago --- asked me this question: "Do you know why a dog will lie on a sunny porch licking his own balls?"
The answer, of course, is "because he can."
This probable isn't american airlines fault, but more due to government regulation.
Did you RTFA? The person in question was never asked those questions when flying on USAir, and when American Airlines discovered he was an AAdvantage Platinum member, they immediately changed their tune and told him they no longer needed to ask those questions.
If it's a government regulation, then why didn't he have to comply with it when he flew USAir? Why didn't he have to comply with it because he had Platinum status in American's frequent flyer program?
Oh, and when an airline loses your luggage, you generally have a good idea they've done that before you leave the baggage claim at your destination airport. You have to file a claim for your missing bag (description, etc.) and they collect contact information at that time. There's no need to collect that up front.
For some reason, I just knew this would be something that was posted by samzenpus.
I'm doubtful that the UK branch of AA can be verifying the info you give them before you set foot on the plane.
"Let's see... in the morning, I'll be staying with my pal I.P.Frehley in Hoboken,NY. Then, I'm going to have lunch with Seymour Butts in Seattle. And then I'll be bedding down at Mike Hunt's place in Miami. Now, can I get on the plane, please?".
I'm a US citizen going to school in Canada and when I was flying back to visit my family in Florida I had to deal with similar song and dance... Though I was from the US I still had to give them the address of where I was staying and with who. The funny part was that we were going on a houseboating trip.. apparently US customs couldn't grasp the concept of my situation. It's only added to my list of reasons why I'm planning on living in Canada after I'm done school :-P
You have to list where you'll be staying (address and phone number) when you visit South Korea. Of course, when traveling on an American passport, they seem to pretty much wave you through...
JOIN US FOR PONG!
The only time I had problems with these types of questions was on a trip to Canada. It was on a trip to New Foundland while on official US Government business.
The Canadian Immigration officer was asking me a whole bunch of questions, is this a business trip? What type of business? What type of work again? Why are you on this trip? blah, blah, blah... I got a bit annoyed so I answered one question like this.
"I am going as an official government employee of the United States of America to the United States of America's Naval Base in Argentia to conduct United States of America business."
Woops! His expression on his face immediately changed, then he signal for someone to take me aside where they then emptied my bags and ask me more nice questions.
I guess he didn't like that the Brits turned over Argentia to the Yanks as part of the Lend Lease program during WWII. Or maybe I shouldn't have had that cocky smirk on my face when I gave my answer.
Rather the purpose of most of these rediculous security measures is to convince people that someone is doing something. Nothing more.
Someone was coming to visit me in the UK from the US. She had to give my address, didn't know it, and there was some trouble.
She got through it eventually, but they gave her quite a hard time.
I have relatives in Las Vegas, so I go there quite often, neither for business nor for vacation.
So one day I'm at the Budget Car Rental desk, and the lady at the counter starts asking me questions, like "who are you staying with?" She wanted adressess and phone numbers, etc.
Now, I was so taken aback by all of this, that I confronted her, trying to understand what the point of the questioning was -- because it seemed to me that my credit card, insurance, drivers license, and the fact that I have very frequently made this same rental, weren't sufficient to get me past the counter.
She simply asserted that "the information was necessary before she could rent me a car." "Very well", I said, "you will not be renting me a car today. Please cancel my reservation."
I then went to the National shuttle, showed my National Emerald Card to the shuttle driver, went to the lot, picked out a car, and the shuttle driver even put my bags in the trunk for me. I had to show my card and my license at the doghouse gate, and that was that. The rate turned out to be cheaper than Budget would have been anyway.
Needless to say, I don't bother with Budget anymore.
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
On one occasion I was flying Dallas from San Jose on AA. They had a box embargo meaning you cannot register packed boxes, only regular luggage. I wasn't aware of that so I was carrying a Yamaha keyboard I just bought in its box, neatly packed. I played dumb about the embargo and checked in my box no-questions-asked. In front of me there were some Latinos (wearing hats and everything) with boxes and bags and they were not letting them board with those.
I hope whoever meta-moderates that comment blasts the unfair Offtopic rating. The poster specifically asked us to relate stories of being mistreated at airports. This woman's story clearly qualifies as such -- how is that Offtopic?
... and it wasn't a big deal.
I recently got back from a trip to Vietnam, Cambodia and Thailand and I had the exact same experience at in all three countries. It was just a simple little line on the county entrance form. I crossed the borders of Cambodia and Thailand by foot so I filled out the form in front of officials and asked them about the field. They said it wasn't a big deal and if I didn't know to just put 'hotel'. Being a backpacker I truly had no idea where i would be staying.
"I can not bring myself to believe that if knowledge presents danger, the solution is ignorance" - Isaac Asimov
When I've gone to Lima, they ask (immigration) the same thing. I don't have a problem with it, and I bet that until there's a real world governing body (wherever it's located and however its composition, and where everyone has a world identity and not just country/regional/cultural) where EVERYONE can be accounted for in one system, this type of passive surveillance will become more the rule than the exception.
Let's face it, when it's as easy as infecting one person with some terminal, infectious disease and sending them along to a few major airports before they drop dead, these types of controls are unfortunately needed. Hopefully just the chance that the sponsoring party could get busted would be enough of a deterrent to keep 90% from attempting it.
Yeah, yeah, let the conservative vitrolic fly, but this is reality, and not the 'can't we all just get along' fantasy that we all wish for. Come up with a better deterrent that works and I'd be even happier.
Wait, What?
I come from Gambia..and when i apply for a visit visa to France
Is this degrading or what...everybody is silent over that for years....
oh wait
This discussion is about 1st class humans
it's 742 evergreen terrace. ;)
I have encountered a similar policy in the Bahamas. I rode on a mail boat over with my bicycle to pedal around, camping at any location that opportunity shined on. But this is against the rules. It turns out that camping on the beach is illegal, and island nations that depend on tourism dollars would rather their visitors stay in posh hotels.
At customs they ask you to state where you will stay and the length of your stay. They weren't happy with my opened-ended responses and encouraged me to smile and tell lies just to get the line moving again. So that's what I did.
Regulations like this have been around for a while. Tourism-driven economic considerations have also been around for a while. But the situation mentioned in the article sounds much more suspicious than these the regulations in Carribean vacation spots.
I lived in London for a year while in college. I had a friend come over to visit. He filled out his landing card and couldn't remember what college I went to. The UK immigration officials pulled him aside, tore through his bags. They asked him a bunch of questions about his employment, schooling and also questions about me.
Then they paged me in the airport and asked me the same questions to see if he was lying.
PS, this was in 99, long before 9/11.
This isn't new, this is someone overreacting and blaming everything on Bush and bashing the US
I think most posters need to RTFA, it was the airline asking for the addressess, not US customs. Why did the airline, a private company, need those details?.
And how exactly do these congenital pinhead clones of John Ashcroft know you're not making it all up? "Yeah, officer, I'm stayin' with my good buddy Frolickin' Fred at his LA digs." Please, God, create a friggin' virus that kills everybody with an IQ under 80. And why in the name of Tap-dancin' Tom Jefferson would anyone actually give the name and address of their real friends....I am appalled, astonished, fried deeply, even....
"Is this Winkhorst a nova criminal?" "No just a technical sergeant wanted for interrogation."
How does one draw the conclusion that shaking people down at the border or the airport will replace shaking people down at a football game or courthouse? If it was an either/or situation, I could almost see the reasoning...
In late 1996 I was flagged as a security threat by Vanguard Airlines at the DIA. I guess a 21 year old that has a 3rd party in SLC pay in cash for a ticket from Denver to Salt Lake the day before the departure date is suspicous or something (unexpected business trip). My sole carry on bag was "drop searched" by hand at the security check in station.
When I got to the boarding gate they wanted to send me back to security to have my luggage searched AGAIN... which was on the otherside of the airport. I learned very qucikly to NEVER argue with security procedures. The carry on bag was eventualy stored in the bomb proof container in the planes cargo hold. I am almost positive that I would have been arrested today for arguing about having my luggae searched twice by the same people. I am sure I am some sort of list now.
I actualy don't mind added security though. I know what kind of riff raff I am!
~Z
1) The White House, you moron!
2) Allah is Great!!
3) Yo mama's house.
4) Any vacant park bench.
5) The Taco Bell
THEN you should see some weird reactions...
Chill out, man. These are the rules, and I don't like them either, but EVERYONE who doesn't fit the TSA's image of 'Butter Bean Bob flying business class to Newark' is going to get to get some questioning. That's the price we seemingly have to pay for 'security'.
If you catch a terrorist at the border then you don't have to catch them at the football game?
Make sense?
I went to New York from Brazil, in the begining of the year, flying Japan Airlines and I also needed to give names and addresses. This is the standard protocol, isn't it? Or maybe for canadians it is harassment and for brazilians is ok?
This is not a real valid request. It is a bogus attempt to harvest information refered to as "airline phishing". It should be ignored.
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
Just ask questions that you have no right to ask and say its part of some secret regulation and if the person just aquiesces then you know he is probably a terrorist from some country where you do not question authority figures. If you complain then you must be a reasonable person from a democratic country.
... from TSA regulations?
It's hard to soar like an eagle when you're surrounded by turkeys.
What a freaking asshat. They have been doing this for many, many years. And it isn't just AA or the US govt; it is all countries I've been to and on all airlines.
It can be used for many purposes, from emergency contact info (very useful when I was in India around the time of 9/11) to verifying that you are going to leave the country when you say or locating you to get lost luggage.
This dork needs to read a little bit before opening his big keyboard, and the editors need to do some research before posting such a stupid story.
IANAL, but I play one on
Nice name calling. Anonymous Coward indeed...
It seems that some here are completely missing the point.
The author, Cory Doctorow, was directed to an AA 'security counter' before checking in at the AA counter in Gatwick airport, not on arrival in the U.S., was interogated by an AA security officer and was asked to provide personal information on A BLANK PIECE OF PAPER. If I was Cory I would have been as upset as he was and I believe he asked the security officer some reasonable questions. The entire process was bizarre to my thinking.
Many have pointed out that you are asked for an address in your destination country, but by an INS offical not an airline employee, on an official customs form and certainly not before you board your flight. The only country that I know of that has customs pre-clearance to the U.S. is Canada, where the customs and immigration process is handled in Canada by American INS agents before you board your plane to the U.S. Upon arrival, you step off the plane and into the airport, no customs.
It's because you take it personally. Here's the problem: Canada, due in part to their liberal asylum policies, has become a haven and stopover point for terrorists wishing entry into the US. Since passports from countries like Morrocco or Jordan are already highly suspect, terrorists have been using forged and legit passports from countries like Canada (often obtained through family contacts), to gain entry with much less scrutiny. My advice? Next time choose a connecting flight in Canada.
EFF founder John Gilmore has been fighting these so-called rules for some time now. Check out Gilmore vs Ashcroft regarding these rules.
Wired magazing wrote:
Our consituttion provides for redress of grieveances against the government. But how can you address something when you aren't even allowed to know it's number, title, or content?I wish I could find the specific show, but this is documented somewhere in the vast vault of kpftarchive.org. A woman and animal rights activist I know fairly well was stopped in the Houston, Texas airport after returning from overseas with her parents. She was seperated from her parents by armed guards, held for hours, and had to wait for the local FBI / sheriff person to show up. Turns out this person has been attending demonstrations undercover for years. The key detail is that this woman, and everyone else in the Houston animal rights community, is strictly dedicated to non-violence and legal, peaceful, non-sidewalk blocking demonstrations. She's specifically taken on some powerful scum, such as Charles Hurwitz. The FBI agent vaguely threatened her, and mentioned details that according to the woman in question could only have been gained by listening to her private telephone calls. Then, the tactics changed, and the agent began to offer her college tuition or even cash for turning informant (not withstanding the fact that there is actually nothing for her to inform about). She declined. Finally, several hours later she was released. She had committed no crime, was not involved in the investigation of any crime, and was never given good reason as to why she had been held. It seems that just mere connection with a peaceful, unpopular cause is enough to be threatened. In fact, an agent (possibly the same one) once told me that 'you'd be surprised what you can do to someone without ever pressing charges' - a clear threat. She bravely went on the radio the next day to tell everyone what had happened. I imagine most people just keep quiet.
He said there were 200,000 daily readers to boingboing.net. It's on /. now, I wonder how many unique visitors to that one letter he is going to get. Any bets?
Make your computer faster: rm -rf
As a European i regularly receive similar questions at all kinds of borders. In Russia you are usually asked to show the written confirmation of the hotel you are going to stay. And yes, the US passport control guys do like to talk about why did you come, who you are going to meet, where are you going to stay, and so on. Was never asked by an airline thogh. That's baffling... v
Get her, boys!
cheap labor conservatives - they want to keep you hungry enough to be thankful for minimum wage.
This article is a fine example of why most blogging is not journalism. As many posters have noted, it is common practice in many countries to ask for your destination while in the country. They've also noted that the policy is usually customs-related, not airline-related.
Any decent journalist would have done research and discovered these facts. The journalist probably would have also contacted American Airlines, the TSA, and US Customs for comment.
As it is, this "article" is simply a one-sided rant.
I'd fix it, but I already commented on this one...
damn... sorry...
No problem. I'll give them the same address I gave on the NYT registration page :)
When I fly to Europe, they look at my passport for about 5 seconds (literally), and wave "hi" as I enter. Makes me want to stay. When I come home to NYC, I get literally hours-long lines past a few officials, with the majority of windows empty. Then I get hassled with all kinds of BS when I show my passport with my NYC address. Makes me want to stay - in Europe.
Meanwhile, small planes buzz the Statue of Liberty without even being warned away, I know of all kinds of people who accidentally carry potentially lethal weapons (hatpins, mace, etc) through "security", and no one has attacked the US. This whole "security" culture is a total sham, costing billions and our liberty to prop up corporations and the government with unchecked power. Goddamn bin Laden and his Republican soulmates, and the pussy Democrats who help them get away with it.
--
make install -not war
I had to do the same thing flyng from Australia to Toronto about 7 years ago. It seemed like a fairly standard document. I also had to specify if I intended to visit any farms or travel to rural localities. At the time the answer given to me was that if they had to contact me (eg. the Australian Govt) they had a number or name to at least start to get a message out.
I just can't be bothered.
Hmm, I don't remember. I would hope it was the immagration. But it really matters little who collects the information.
What concerns me most is that noone could provide either a regulation number nor a data retention/privacy poilcy. This is unacceptable. Why should anyone have to comply with a phantom regulation?
I travel internationally a fair bit with work and can honestly say that this happens almost everywhere. The US has been a little more picky lately in terms of verifying my relationship with a person, but otherwise this has been standard procedure for years. For most travellers it just means filling in the hotel that you're staying at on a customs declaration, but even when co-workers are staying with family out on site they still need to provide an address that they can be reached at. There is some benefit in exchange for the loss of privacy - if there were any issues that came up on that flight (CDC sort of stuff) then they have a starting point to track down affected people. If I recall that was one of the initial motivators - controlling the spread of disease.
Thoughts?
"Be proud to be a fighter" - Martial Arts Adage
Ever flown to a country where you were required to have a visa? Fortunately, being an American, I don't need a visa to go very many places, but this kind of information is NOTHING compared to what the destination country will want to know if you plan on getting into the country. I had to get a Visa for Germany since I was going to be there longer than 90 days, and they wanted to know my income, my parents income, where I was staying, what I would be doing, etc, etc. Countries like to keep tabs on foreigners, that's just the way it is.
I've also had to provide contact information pretty much every time I've flown into a European country from the US on even a US passport. And the US government strongly recommends you provide that same information to the local consulate as well.
Just because someone would like some information dosn't automatically mean it's malicious. Face it, you're just NOT THAT INTERESTING. Nobody gives a crap where you're staying, unless they figure out later that you're a terrorist, or your plane crashes, or your goverment's consulate calls up and says "Hey, this dude's mom can't find him, any idea where he is?" or they figure out it's been a year and you havn't left the country yet.
Can you imagine the outrage if people found out we knew nothing about where foreigners were going when they entered the country?
paintball
... after having a full body search etc.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
Ever seen a grown man .... anyway, I don't think this guy's ever flown out of the country before. I went to Paris last spring on Delta and everyone on the plane was asked to fill a small piece of paper out with this info both when leaving and coming back to the states.
So why dont we, like, remove this post from the main page? It's, you know, hogging all the space reserved for needed nerd-news.
Presumably if you answer yes to any of the questions they may not let you into the country. Nice to know the US has such a cunning scheme in operation to foil the terrorists!
Yeah, right.
Sorry to respond to my own message, but..
After reading the full letter to American Airlines, this issue takes on new meaning. This information was attempted to be gathered in the UK, and thus would be subject to UK privacy laws. Also, this was supposedly to fufill a mystery TSA regulation that is not consistently applied. This issue is not at all about customs, this came up upon checking in, while still in the UK. I'm now curious to see AA's response.
-molo
Using your sig line to advertise for friends is lame.
I'm an American who once (and only once) used AA to visit Colombia. At the airport in Bogota, getting ready to return to the US, American Airlines had a couple of podiums set up before you got to the check-in desk. The woman at the podium started asking me all sorts of questions... where had I been in Colombia, who with, what did I do, where did I stay, is that your friend over there? (yes, and he works at the US embassy, thanks), who's your friend talking to?, what's your friend's blood type and penile girth? etc. etc. etc. for about 15 minutes.
I had the same question - why is American Airlines asking me all these retarded questions, and to what end - and all I got was the same stock 9/11 non-answer.
After several trips to Colombia, neither the US government or any other airline has ever asked me barely a single question about my trip. Hell, at US customs, the people usually don't even look at my form - I had one guy glance at my name, read it out loud in a bored voice, and say "buh-bye!" and wave me off.
It's only American Airlines that's this obnoxious. I'd like to know why, too.
This is not new, I've always done this (traveled to the US yearly from Europe since 1999).
Also, as I got interested in genealogy, I noticed that at least since 1895(!) people have needed to answer all kinds of question, including who they are coming to see. At some point they recorded information about height, weight, health, amount of cash and so on.
100 Martin Luther King drive any city any state ..... ....
100 Columbus street any city any state
100 Washington blvd any city any state
100 Lincoln drive any city any state
100 1st street
Oh and lets not forget
100 Main street
If you need to list an address in Chicago this one is quite popular:
1060 W. Addison
Chicago, IL 60613
(It worked for Jake and Elwood)
Invalid Checksum. Retrying.
They have that at Calgary International. Or at least they did in jan 2001...
I rarely criticize things I don't care about.
I don't know about anyone else... but I've been asked those questions (practically word for word) on any intercontinental flight over the past several years (even pre-9/11).
This is far from anything new. I've been on many flights where right at the gate they asked every party boarding the plane these questions. If you didn't speak the language at the airport, you sat on the side, and a few minutes later someone who did speak your language came.
Doesn't matter if you spoke Japaneese in Amsterdam on a flight to NYC. In a few minutes a Japaneese speaking rep was there.
So no.... this isn't an American Airlines policy.
I don't think I ever flew AA internationally.
immigration purposes.
People who bite the hand that feeds them usually lick the boot that kicks them
I find other airlines are a much more pleasant experience, and I can always do without the unnecessary and intrusive stopovers south of the border when flying to Canada. Even before reading this story I was intent on avoiding United next time I fly. The Canadian airlines - like the country - are simply more polite. And of course airlines like Swiss or JAL are just outstanding in comparison.
you had me at #!
Nice, and true. Read some of his hysterical panty-wettings over at boingboing sometime, they're pretty goddamn funny until you realize they're not parody.
The point of Corey's story is, it isn't customs or the US government gathering this information, it's American Airlines... and they're lying to him about why they're doing it.
As far as the border questions, you're absolutely right, those questions are totally irrelevant and no one cares what the answers are. The point of asking them is that they just want to have some sort of interaction with you to determine if you're a suspicious character or not.
It's probably the same motivation with American Airlines, except asking him to write the addresses down is going stupid overboard, and he's right to question their privacy standards.
Although this has been long known in the security "biz", in fact there is growing body of evidence to give this some scientific basis such as this recent article about MRI-ing folks when telling lies...
http://www.rsna.org/daily/monday/fmri.html
In this specific article they allude to the fact that you have to do some "positive control questioning" to have a proper calibration. Of course customs, immigration, and police have been using these techniques for quite a while without scientific validation.
Of course I'm a bit biased because I believe this is a valid questioning technique. Some people object to any questioning whatsoever and I doubt they would ever be convinced this is a good thing to do. Sadly I also believe there is a correlation to those same people and the size of their egos about their importance in the world (e.g., even though they let me slide by, if I don't stop this invasion of privacy, nobody will)...
A more likely real senario is that someone with sars was on your plane. There are lagitimate reasions for them to want contact details.
Ah, diabetes and airlines after 9/11. Such fun! ;)
;)
I have two stories here.
The first one was when I was checking in for a flight. Diabetic needleheads in my bag (these are sealed thumb-sized packages that you fit onto the end of an insulin pen). The attendant asked, probably for the umpteenth hundredth time, the boilerplate question "Do you have any sharp metal objects, etc, etc?". My nonchalant answer was "yes". After getting a few hundred "no"'s in a row, followed by my calm response of "yes", the look on her face was priceless. After leaving her in a state of confusion for a few moments I explained to her that I was diabetic, what they were for, and gave her a doctors letter confirming it. She seemed strangely relieved.
The not-so-happy second story was on a domestic return trip back home to Adelaide (Australia). After having traveled to a different state, on the way back the jerkoff checking my stuff (which I politely and properly declared), obviously looking for a power trip decided to give me a hard time for having too many needleheads (I had three). Never mind I can't eat food without getting sick without insulin. Sometimes needleheads break and warp, especially when you are trying to jab yourself with a pen between two other passengers on a cramped airline seat. I had a letter from my GP explaining I was diabetic, a medic-alert bracelet, etc, anticipating the whole post-9/11 paranoia. And I wanted to get home. I'm hoping karma comes back and bites that jerk in the ass.
I can't imagine what it would be like with an insulin pump. I put off looking into one for a while because I made too many flights post-9/11 and didn't want someone trying to yank the thing...
Do you begin to get the feeling that if the story said they shoved a cucumber up his ass and asked him to whistle Dixie, that half a dozen people would say that this is exactly what happened to them last time they flew from Nairobi to Kinshasa?
"Is this Winkhorst a nova criminal?" "No just a technical sergeant wanted for interrogation."
I've been asked these questions travelling from the US to Canada, to France, to Korea and to the UK. The only place I wasn't asked these questions was on a trip to Chile. Perhaps it was because I was travelling with my wife, and she speaks better Spanish than I do.
Surely this isn't the first time that Doctrow has travelled internationally, so maybe AA was less polite about it. But it is certainly not unusual.
This really isn't that new. The form asks where you're going to be staying, have you been on any farms recently, have you commited any warcrimes under the Geneva convention (I kid you not). Pretty standard stuff really. Been quizzed quite intently at immigration in Dulles a few times by on the ball officers who noticed I'd put the wrong zip code on once, and actually put the correct street name on another (the officer lived close by and commented that even locals spell the name wrong, thus it was suspicious that I, as a visitor, got it right!).
I have to have my piccy taken, and fingerprints too. Nothing to see here, move along...
Waiting for an amusing sig.
Fear not. The assault on freedom and privacy by the TSA is not just for foreign travelers.
I recently upgraded my flight to first class and apparently that upgrade marked me. I got "special" treatment. Yeah -- I was treated like you'd expect to be treated going into Prison. The only thing missing was the cavity search.
The TSA, when it's not holding lavish conferences in Hawaii, thinks that everything is does is for your safety, no matter how intrusive it may be. I spoke very loud in my complaint as I was basically strip searched. The TSA officer then made the remark that they caught someone with a gun on a random screening. I pointed out that there must be a serious flaw in the system if the gun was only caught due to a random screening. Perhaps they should focus on that first!
And I seriously fear that if I actually logged a complaint with the TSA, I would simply be flagged for more "secondary security" searches -- it's a lose-lose situation with the TSA being totally unaccountable for their actions.
It is now at the point that I DREAD the thought of flying because of the hassles and treatment. Unfortunately, it is unrealistic in today's business world to simply "not fly".
There are two things that have ACTUALLY improved the security of our flights:
#1 -- The re-enforced cockpit doors.
#2 -- The awareness of passengers.
Everything else has minimal effect (come on, confiscating nail clippers?) and is mainly for show.
TSA needs to think outside the box. All they've done is more of the same.
Their current approach is counter to everything that the United States is supposed to stand for. People, submit to them simply out of ignorance and fear. Someone with real credibility needs to stand up and say enough is enough. If we allow ourselves to be ruled by fear, then we've lost.
It would have been hot if she was wearing a short skirt. And also, as she was being frisked, her penis grew larger and flopped out of its careful position along her lower belly tucked in by her underwear and into the air below her skirt. Because she was actually a shemale. That's hot. I really hope you embellished it like that.
Asked to give names and addresses? Just say you're terribly sorry but you don't have their permission, can't give out that info.
I went to Romania, not exactly the pinacle or bastion of freedom and democracy, and on entry was asked simply where I was going, why and for how long I was staying. Nothing else. This country was communist in 1989, and travel restrictions seem less severe that the USA? Maybe this is cause for Americans to pause for some deep reflection on what they were fighting for, and what they really won, at the end of the cold war.
Why bother segregating and interrograting?
Yeah, I know - I live in sight of the hole, and work within a block. In the town where I'm from. I used to work with some of those dead people. What's it to *you*, that you wave it around like you've got anything worthwhile to say? The whole point is that this fake security is making us less safe, and wasting our lives. But I guess you're into it.
--
make install -not war
When I renewed my drivers license, I falsified my address.
What did you put down?
1060 West Addison.
That's Wrigley Field!!
Elwood Blues
* Carthago Delenda Est *
This technique is used very effectively by Israeli security officers to flush out security risks - but they receive special training in interrogation technique, and they're not so much comparing your answers as observing you carefully. This technique can be very effective if applied selectively by people who are properly trained and experienced - much more effective than document checks, routine questions, and luggage searches. How many terrorist hijackings and bombings have there been on prime target El Al Airlines in the last 30 years?
Unfortunately the semi-hysterical reaction to 9/11 has me too spooked to go back.... even though I've been hanging out to see Vegas again. I don't even speed, so getting treated like a criminal (finger printed etc at customs) is not for me. Also, just being a foreigner in the US in the current climate would be worrisome I think. Once the bigger issues like patriout act, detention without trial, and some respect for international law are sorted I'll gladly come back.
Should I start holding my breath? 8)
US Airways found it very suspicious that I was travelling from the USA to Spain.. with an Italian passport. Ten minutes later ...."Yes we know there is a European Union, but you don't have a return ticket...".. "but I'm not an american".. "hmm...this is very strange, please let me wait (a lot)"
as soon as you questioned the right to collect this information from you or put back on a plane to return to your destination or worse redirected to a location never to be seen or heard from again. If you were an "honest" citizen what reason would you possible have to keep secrets and not cooperate with the authorites. Only terrorists and criminals want to remain anonymous.
It's interesting to note how many people are claiming here that this is common practice for all countries when the point of the complaint is that it's the airline, not the country's govt. that is asking these questions. Every country's immigration asks for this info from non-citizens and that's understandable (tracking overstays etc.). But for all those claiming this is common, how many airlines, not immigration officials asked you for these details ? Not once for me, not while travelling to the US, Europe or Japan. But then I never flew AA.
If the "podium" that he went to belonged to AA, then the issue is as confusing to me as the poster.
I know that US Customs sometimes asks for the address you're staying at if you're entering from Canada. My friends were denied entry into New York (or maybe it was Michigan) from Ontario last year (by car no less) because they didn't know the address of the hotel they were staying at. Not sure if this is the same idea.
How long before airlines start requiring us to turn off our mobile phones in the terminal, so we can't record inane conversations with lying employees? It's very powerful when Doctorow recounts specific quotes from the liars intimidating him with guilt and fear into divulging info, instead of answering his simple reasonable (legal) questions about privacy. But Doctorow is an author, so he can do so easily. For a critical mass of complaints to gather, we'll need to monitor them at least as closely as they monitor us. So of course the airlines will extend their already mysterious policy of "no phones in flight" to protect them from liability for their lies on the ground. And they will merely lead the way for all corporate space to prohibit any countersurveillance.
--
make install -not war
I believe I had to do this when I entered the UK in the summer of 1981. The man at customs made me write down the name and address of every place I would be staying while I was in the UK visiting my uncle.
3000 died. That is true... it only took 3000 to lose our freedom in this country. Give it a second thought. After 3000 dead everyone who enters our nation is treated as a criminal. Now remember the hundreds of thousands who died to bring you that freedom. DO NOT GIVE UP YOUR FREEDOM SO EASILY. Hundreds of Thousands of Americans died to bring Freedom back to Europe. That was not even our own freedom. In the Revolutionary war 10s of thousands died to Create your freedom. Stop being Scared of life and start living it. An Oppressive government is no way to run a country. Honor our soldiers and honor our forefathers by asserting your rights to privacy, freedom of speech, freedom of worship and freedom to congregate. This is what makes America great. Read your history books and learn. No one is out to get you, though its hard to tell with the Alert set to "Orange" today.... hmmmmmm how do they come up with that anyway? Does that mean I should keep my gas mask in my car, just in case????
-One More Concerned American.
Passport Control at Heathrow routinely asked me why I was in the country and where I was staying when I flew in and out of there pre-911. That's fine; that's offical UK business.
Being asked by an airline to list the friends you'll be seeing is a different matter. If it this is, in fact, a TSA requirement, the TSA should acknowledge it.
And, if it is, was every other passenger on that flight asked the same question?
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
I took a trip to the UK in October of 1999, flying AA out of Chicago-O'Hare, nonstop to Manchester. On the day I flew out of Chicago, the front-page news was the coup in Pakistan. What a way to start a transatlantic trip! :o)
The flight was uneventful, though, and the UK immigration official who checked my passport also wanted to know where I was staying and itinerary information. I was staying with my future brother-in-law in Manchester (he now lives in Michigan), and I told the official that I'd be using his place as a "home base," but I tended to be a spur-of-the-moment type (I had rented a car). Still, there wasn't any real hassle entering the UK.
I found the security boarding in Manchester to be a bit more thorough than pre-9/11 O'Hare, with a security official asking Twenty Questions about my bags, had they been out of my sight, any electrical devices, did they work properly, etc., etc., etc. The most dangerous thing I had was a bottle of Scotch.
Entering Manchester, I didn't notice any bag searches, but I presume my bags were X-rayed out of my sight. Entering O'Hare, bags were X-rayed as I passed through Customs.
In no case did an airline employee ask for addresses, etc.; it was UK Customs going in, and airport security (police?) going out.
Oh, no! You have walked into the slavering fangs of a lurking grue!
For the record, even though I'm driving in a car across the border they have always asked "where are you staying", but when I answer just going up for the day or staying one night to do some sight seeing, go shopping and eat at a nice restaurant and come back home, they used to just wave me through. Now they always ask a few more nosy questions like "will you be visiting anyone", "do you have any friends or relatives you will be visiting", or "is this your first time to vancouver", "how many times have to visited in the last year", or "are you carrying any dangerous materials", "how many english speakers do you have in the car", etc, etc... Maybe I should start speaking French, although they may get more insulted by my pronunciation (having learned from a french teacher, not a french-canadian teacher)...
A friend told me it was usually faster to go through the truck route than the main passenger car route and one time the immigration officer grilled me "why did you come to this way, it's for trucks". Once I had wait for the supervisor to look at my passport, after some nasty looks, he waived me through. So, if you are willing to put up with sometimes getting a nasty look, it'll save you about 20 minutes when the border is busy...
But you have to just suck it in and smile and think that there's a reason to the madness and to get what you want you should stay focused on the prize. I just keep thinking to myself, I saved some time and I can get to some pretty good and inexpensive restaurants faster (although the exchange rate hasn't helped recently in the inexpensive department).
Never used to have any trouble coming back (until they had that mad cow embargo)... Now the US folks want to know if you are smuggling in any beef products.
Just grin and bear it until you can't bear it any more and then just laugh about it (and complain behind their backs later) ;^)
When you fly into the US as a foreigner, you are required to give an address to the customs people.
Maybe the airline is just making sure that you do have an address to give to save themselves a possible head-ache at the other end.
I get the impression - from having difficulties with this issue myself at JFK - that until you have actually crossed that immigration line, you are still the responsibility of the airline. If you don't have the right forms and things, it is up to the airline to try to sort things out. (I could be wrong on this, but that is how it seemed to work).
And to you dolts who don't understand the difference between filling out a customs form and filling out a blank sheet of paper handed to you by a rent-a-cop at an airline counter before departure, get some brains, morans! (and BTW, "morans" is deliberately spelled that way, moron!)
or whatever they call it. It's not so much the answers as how you react to the questions. Panicking and bolting for the exit would have been the wrong "answer". They probaby throw the answer sheet out if you don't act "suspicious".
A lot of posts mention that this is actually a common customs practice.
You're missing this line from the letter:
Several more minutes passed, and then the supervisor appeared. He
had looked over my documents and said, "Sir, I'm sorry, you are a
Platinum AAdvantage member and shouldn't have been asked this
question."
Generally, compliance with customs laws applies whether or not you're a Platinum AAdvantage member. Therefore, it seems that one of two things, both alarming, is going on:
a.) American Airlines totally lied, and this was not a TSA policy at all, or
b.) American Airlines completely ignores TSA policies for its more 'valuable' customers.
Something's not right here.
________________________________________________
suwain_2
I always have to indicate the address I am staying at when I travel to Slovenia for research as well as one contact address. I am a US citizen. It IS unusual that a Canadian would be asked for such info, but you always have to fill out a card when landing from an international flight to the US if you ain't Merikin.
Comparing it to Windows will be a moot point, since El Dorado is going to have a 40% larger code base than XP.
The security we have in place is the illusion of security to make people think "flying is safe now!".
I think most intelligent people realize this, and most try not to mention to idiots that make up 93% of the population.
The funny part is some people really think this stuff makes them safer. Funny? or Sad. Can't decide.
on entering from the US by bus. This was before the current terrorism craze, too. They wanted to know where I was going (Montreal) and where I'd be staying (I said I planned to find a youth hostel). They asked if I was employed in the US (I said yes) and what I did (I told them). They asked how much money I had with me (about 100 USD cash, plus some credit cards that I put on the counter). They never really seemed to become satisfied with my answers, but eventually they got tired of questioning me and let me through.
I think they mainly wanted to make sure I wasn't trying to move to Canada with a residential visa and become a public burden. I had formerly thought that Canada->US was the difficult direction to travel in, but Canada now is pretty sticky too.
To get cheap tuition in California, you claim to be an illegal alien?
Well, I guess that's the price you pay for getting your beans picked at starvation wages.
I'll be staying with George W Bush. He has some fancy white house in Washington.
But seriously I'd probably just tell them I didn't know. I might go find a hotel I liked and stay in that. What are they going to say?
I am government man, come from the government. The government has sent me. -- G.I.R.
"I'm obviously a businessman, why are you searching me..." or
"Excuse me, I'm a EU citizen, I'm not from the middle east.."
I've actually heard/seen these and similar lines at airports around Europe both before and since 911. I'm thinking anyone trying to use these lines should also be rubber gloved... I think americans get a bad rap when it's obvious that suffering from one's own self importance is not a phenomena restricted to the other side of the pond...
American's do all their incomming traffic in the foreign country.
They are worried about people illegally immigrating.
...except it's being run by freakin' morons, and it's not just AA doing it. Flying out of the USA from Logan on Virgin you get the same pre-checkin screening from, dare I say it, *monkeys*.
..."and have you put a bomb in either one of them? Any concealed blades, guns, or pointy things in the battery compartment, etc?" but no, the screener completely failed on the follow-up, and just moved on to the next thing on her checklist.
... but without the necessary training. I feel safer already.
last time I flew I was asked if I had a laptop or a digital camera in my carry-on. I had both, so I said "Yes". The screener asked (no, she _snapped_) "Which is it?!" to which I replied "Both."
I expected some kind of follow-up. I mean, really, if you're going to ask about electronic goods, doesn't that mean you're going to follow up with something like
Now, compare that to the screening done right by British Midland (a gate agent, not a rentacop), who when she asked me the inital laptop question followed it up with "has it been in your possession all the time, have you had it serviced recently" and so on.
So what we're seeing here is an attempt by screeners to put the El Al pre-screening system in place
Less than a year ago, I vacationed ~1,000 miles from home in the Tampa Bay, Florida area, taking a Southwest Airlines flight to get there. Upon returning home a week later, callerID indicated an unknown caller with an area code neighboring Tampa Bay had called my house while I was away, but no message was left on the answering machine. I looked the number up in Google to discover it was a sheriff's department number. I called the sheriff's department and they denied having called me. Spooky.
We US-uns do that all the time. See, it's not hard to get *in* to the US, it's hard to get *out* of Canada.
That is how we spin things like "Sadam tells Bin Laden 'hell no, I won't give you money'" into "a real and palpable connection between Iraq and Al Queda".
And once every random idea is automatically presumed to be a federal policy, we are hoping that nobody will notice when we come to take all your toys in the name of that policy.
It is The _New_ Carte Blanche, so I guess not every french idea is a bad one to this regeme...
Innocent people shouldn't be forced to pay for inferior software development.
--"Code Complete" Microsoft Press
& I've never been rejected entry into a country.
One just has to dress in a way that impresses such people & then say what they want to here.
Really if one is up to something dodgy, the best way to enter a country is a part of a large tour group
So what? If you're a "guest" in the U.S. (read, you're not a U.S. citizen) then it's perfectly logical that tabs should be kept on you. Do you host a large party at your house or have a salesman in for whatever reason and just let them wander where they will with no monitoring? No, they are "guests".
Because only a grade-A asshole like you deserves to feel some misery. Cheers, fucker!
The service is great, they dont hassle you, the planes are cool, and the flight attendants are good looking.
I had to do the same thing into Ireland last summer on Delta, but it was a IRE government card you just scribbled out. I don't see how this makes them more secure, so maybe it is a way to protect you, i.e. your expected itinerary if you disappear or something. What is the big deal ?
I have noticed all those takin a hard stance on giving up our rights for "security" were no where close to the towers.
Support our troops, bring them back home. No WMD were found in IRAQ - you confederate republicans.
But damn it if AA didn't lose all my luggage somewhere between London and Los Angeles.
Logic, macros, and more
Saying to the AA representative in good manners please give me a voucher to fly with virgin-atlantic.
I have a British passport and a few months after 911 I flew to the US, I had no problems going through customs. The trouble started when I came back to Canada, I am a Canadian citizen but also a British citizen. They took one look at my passport and they had me answer many questions which took way to long to enter my own country of birth.
From what I can tell, the people blowing themselves and others up (c.f. "9/11") all tend to fit a common ethnic profile -- men of Middle Eastern origin. So why *not* perform ethnic profiling, at least on this group?
IIRC, the airlines have stopped doing random carry on checks for domestic flights at the gate, but almost universally the people I saw checked most often were elderly caucasian women, the ethnic group least associated with any kind of terrorism.
What baffles me is that we know good and well who the terrorist threat is, and yet we continue to deny this and act like a general security crackdown is both necessary and relevant. This is bad because it shows our willingness to subvert the truth in the name of political correctness, it dilutes the resources necessary to actually focus on the real threat and it dilutes freedom and liberty for the entire population.
This is bogus crap, someone with points please mod this the flamebait it is. I work with cali service agencies, and almost everything above is a bunch of propaganda.
7. What we cannot speak about we must pass over in silence.
where bullshit is +5 interesting.
South Park
The Baldwins
Matrix 2 & 3
French and Indian War
Supplied Whiskey to Capone
Sent, Like, 1500 soldiers on D-Day
Constantly Talk Trash About US
Burned down the White House
-----
Yep. I'm ready to nuke'm. American Airlines should have required a colonoscopy on that Cannuk, and lost all his luggage.
Teach THAT fucker.
I'm a little late for this but it's an area I'm familiar with so I thought I'd contribute it.
The U.S. Customs Department is in the process of moving towards what they call "U.N. APIS" (Advanced Passenger Information System). Details can be found at here in the Word document US Passenger List; UN EDIFACT Message Set.
The U.S. APIS system which has been used for some time does not require destination address information. The U.N. format does. See the linked document pages 60-63 for more details. Eventually this will be required when flying any major airline coming into the U.S., not just American Airlines.
I've been asked twice when driving into Canada what hotel, name, number, etc that I was going to be staying at when going from Boston to Montreal. But of course, since we did it, it's the end of all human freedom.
I think I'll stop here.
When I traveled to Communist China, I expected to have to write down all the addresses. If I were to have traveled to the USSR last century, I would have expected physical or bureaucratic minders to be watching my location and contacts.
But when traveling in free, democratic countries, signers of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights? I expect to tell the truth about my length of stay, and that the border-guards will want to protect Article 30:
That would include working to protect privacy, freedom of speech and association, travel and related freedoms along with fighting against the terrorists who'd want to violate Article 3 ("Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person"). They don't need to know my every move and every friend- not because I have something to hide, but because I have important rights to protect.When I've been on trips to free countries I've generally only made reservations only if it looks like the hotels could be all booked up (Kyoto in autumns leaf season, say). I wouldn't be able to give specific addresses, only a general itinerary.
From the ever-useful and prescient Canadian Privacy Commissioner's Report, writing about Canada, but its especially applicable to the US (as it warns Canadians not to lose rights the US has recently given up):
"The bottom line is this: If we have to live our lives weighing every action, every communication, every human contact, wondering what agents of the state might find out about it, analyze it, judge it, possibly misconstrue it, and somehow use it to our detriment, we are not truly free.
That sort of life is characteristic of totalitarian countries, not a free and open society like Canada. But that is where we are inexorably headed, if the Government's current initiatives are allowed to proceed..."
[Initiative to collect travel data in and outside of the country]
"All this personal information - more than 30 data elements including every destination to which we travel, who we travel with, how we pay for the tickets (sometimes including credit card numbers), what contact numbers we provide, even any dietary preferences or health-related requirements we communicate to the airline - will be available for an almost limitless range of governmental purposes under the broad information-sharing provisions of the Customs Act...
This is unprecedented. The Government of Canada has absolutely no business creating a massive database of personal information about all law-abiding Canadians that is collected without our consent from third parties, not to provide us with any service but simply to have it available to use against us if it ever becomes expedient to do so. Compiling dossiers on the private activities of all law-abiding citizens is the sort of thing the Stasi secret police used to do in the former East Germany. It has no place in a free and democratic society."
Standard procedure for US Immigration lately.
.... They want a full address.
Everyone is being treated like a criminal now.
You can't even say nowadays "friends", or, "I will be at the Westin"
Won't be long before they want to swipe all your credit cards when you enter, to get the data, ask you for your bank account numbers, and count and mark all your cash before they let you in.
Still, I am surprised at AA doing it, instead of customs and immigration.
Of course, bad guys will always lie, the rest of us have to let the government snoop into more and more of our private lives.
AC
Wow, in several years it has turned from "News for Nerds" to "News for socialists that think they have it better" and "News for those that have it better but for some reason are socialists". For those posts that I have seen in the past several months, maybe longer, go surf the Michael Moore site , find some activist website or go bash the ditto heads at rush's site.
They wanted to also know the exact address I was staying. "Going to visit a friend I don't know what his friggin address is" didn't sit too well. Canada and the US are supposedly 'friendly' and in fact I've never ever been asked a single probing question when I drive accross the border into New York.
It's not a myth. Or is it that you can't bring yourself to question your worldview that perhaps the US government isn't as benevolent as you'd hoped? As it stands today, the US is unable to support itself with domestic oil alone. That means that in order to support its war machine, it needs foreign oil and gas to keep functioning. Do you think it's coincidence that Pakistan enjoys impunity over its KNOWN nuclear black market while Iran is vilified for even ATTEMPTING to gain nuclear know how?
Wake up and realise you no longer live in a nation built on free and fair values, but rather on global hegemony designed to ensure its supply of resources to maintain living standards at present levels at the expense of everyone else. Democracy and freedom don't factor into the equation. They are merely platitudes to keep the populace uneducated. Why not read a few other sites for a different viewpoint:
Counterpunch
Truthout
Information Clearing House
Cryptome
Visceral Psyche Films
You're confusing OPEN immigration with ANONYMOUS immigration. You used to need a physical to get into the country, now they just want to know where you'll be staying.
paintball
Some people mentioned El Al (and the fact that their people are *trained* in contrast to most other Airline Security Personel in other locations...).
Anyway, a co-worker at a former employer told me about a visit to the wedding of some relative or friend she attended - in Israel (post 9/11).
Flight Munich - Tel Aviv.
Munich Airport: arrive 4h before departure (better more), have luggage searched intensively, interviews and questioning. In Munich, the airport has a special, separated gate for Israel-flights anyway..
Also, you can't really just fly to Israel - you've got to have an invitation (needless to say that all names, addresses and numbers of the people she was staying had been noted).
Arrival in TelAviv: intensive questioning again, the invitation was checked and they actually called the people on the list she gave to the authorities.
But by doing it "right" El-Al has a good history of safe flying - and my impression is that in the years to come, what cumbersome rest of civil liberties or rights to live "anonymous" are going to go away. Completely.
This is not a big problem for most people, but could be a big problem if the government started to get oppressive....
Windows 2000 - from the guys who brought us edlin
Anyone who says that the terrorists haven't won hasn't set foot inside an airport, any airport, recently. I was stopped for possessing hot chocolate in zero degree weather. No kidding. It seems that a styrofoam cup might be a good place for a middle-aged, whitebread male terrorist to hide some C4. Go figure.
I've been to Brazil several times. You have to list the names, addresses, and phone numbers of the people you'll be staying with. They do it to us, and we do it to them too. This has been going on for a long time. Nothing to see, move along.
"Stop throwing the Constitution in my face, it's just a goddamned piece of paper!" - George W. Bush Nov. 2005
I had the exact same treatment this summer when I returned with my wife on our annual vacation to Turkey (she's Turkish). They literally held the plane while they interrogated us for about 10 minutes. Some of the questions we were asked were where my wife work, how many people work at her company, if she had a business card, how much we made. I was becoming quite irritated and beligerent when she asked how I paid for the tickets; then all but called me a liar when I showed her the credit card I used. At that point I had had enough. I told her I wouldn't stand being called a liar, and that we were done answering questions. She then asked us the standard "who packed your bags" etc and let us thru.
This was an AA employee we were dealing with, not the German police or US Customs. She was obviously trying to scare us into some sort of confession or mistake.
I had assumed we were singled out becase my wife is Turkish, but its obviously more widespread than that.
The problem comes when they compare the pax list with their databases. In the US even US citizens don't have the right to correct their data, and the FBI has no obligation to ensure their data about you is correct. Already we've seen how good the TSA's system is, putting every Carlos Garcia, John Lewis and David Nelson on theirs Watch-List as it, doing repeated time-consuming checks on all 10 thousand of them each time they fly rather than doing the actual random checks that keep us safer. And now their database is going to have this data for all travel and travelers around the world (because the gov'ts share this info). They'll be so swamped by the millions of false positives that it'll be far more likely that the extraordinarily rare false negative won't be noticed. Makes me feel safer already: cue theme music to Brazil.
Again the "Its a Warning not a Guidebook" Best Essay Ever...on privacy: "The more information government compiles about us, the more of it will be wrong. That's simply a fact of life.
"[Example of typical gov't database, filled with errors] That was only a research database, so its inaccuracies probably would have remained relatively benign even if it had not been dismantled.
"But if our privacy becomes ever more systematically invaded by the state for purposes of assessing our behavior and making judgments about us, wrong information and misinterpretations will have potential consequences.
"If information that is actually about someone else is wrongly applied to us, if wrong facts make it appear that we've done things we haven't, if perfectly innocent behavior is misinterpreted as suspicious because authorities don't know our reasons or our circumstances, we will be at risk of finding ourselves in trouble in a society where everyone is regarded as a suspect. By the time we clear our names and establish our innocence, we may have suffered irreparable financial or social harm."
The large majority of middle eastern men flying are not terrorists. I know several, who fly often - they live and work in the US but have family back home they visit from time to time. (I think they are green card working on full citizenship)
There are terrorists from all over. (north) Ireland had (has?) a problem with terrorism, and they are whites of European decent. Several terrorists have struck in the US who are US citizens.
That is just what I can think of off the top of my head. If you can't think of more examples you are not trying.
The best solution is to stop being terrified. They want to spread terror and prevent freedom. So increasing security at the cost of freedom is giving them what they want. (I'm still mad about being written up in first grade when I wasn't doing anything wrong)
Alex Jones www.info wars.com
Geoge Bush www.white house.com
Cunnalingus Rice
It seems AA is simply trying to protect themselves. If there is another story like 9/11 where either terrorists hijack a plane or it gets out that terrorists were using AA planes, it could mean bad, bad news for AA as well as the other airline companies which are already doing terrible. I'm not exactly sure if they are legally able to ask for this but I really see no problem with them making sure you have a reason for being in the country if only to protect themselves. They're providing a service under conditions and if you don't like them then you can fly somewhere else (and probably should).
This has been a requirement for any non-US citizen flying from Europe to the US for quite some time now. You have to list which countries you've already visited on your trip, where you're going to stay in the US, whether or not you have bad intentions coming into the US (no kidding), etc.
It would seem logical that those same rules apply whenever you're using a non-US passport, even if you're Cory Doctorow.
The article directly after this, (about Sci-Fi), also contains the stamp of Cory Doctorow content, but it received less than fifty posts. This one has over four hundred. Interesting, eh?
Sci-Fi was needed when we were still in the process of making choices. That time has passed. All the really big choices, (in regard to science and the future), in our culture have now been made and the scope of possible futures is rapidly decreasing in number as we close in on our final destination.
And it looks like that destination might be reached on American Airlines. .
-FL
Has anyone else had something like this happen to them?> It's only happened to me every single time I've flown to someplace outside my home country since my first international flight in 1992. But other than that? Naw, never.
I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.
Jast as you have the right to pick a new airline because of their policies, the airline can question you and refuse to carry you. Being able to pay for something does not obligate someone else to sell it to you.
Doctorow was asked to supply this information to American Airlines, who is, as far as I know, neither a government department nor a government.
As fond as I am of criticising the US government, in this case the information they ask for is no different to that of any other country, including my own. AA, on the other hand, has no right to ask for this information, as it is not their concern to control who enters the US.
Right after 9/11 I was traveling quite often due to my home and job beign in different contries. I tended to take cheap, one way flights so that meant I was at the top of the "terrorist" list. As I usually had multiple stops I got multiple searchings, 14 in all over the course of 3 months.
Now the good part... I make my own habenero hot sauce, which is, frankly, too hot to even talk about in any detail without causing burns on the tounge... So I keep that little red bottle in a special biohazard container that a friend who works at hospital got for me. It's neat, lots of "DANGER" and "BIOHAZARD" logos with little biohazard flowers sencled all over.
I brought this with me on ever flight.
Every security person looked at it, they all saw it, but it wasn't an issue for them, didn't even raise an eyebrow... A small aluminum star chart (credit-card sized), however made for a HUGE fuss...
"Your superior intellect is no match for our puny weapons!"
I flew along with my wife on Thanksgiving weekend from Montreal to DC, both with canadian passports. Oh, wait, we had canadian id's (driving license and health insurrance card - yes everyone has that here so it's considered an official photo id) since both our passports were expired. We normally clear the customs in Canada, before boarding the plane and we flew many times before to the US (but not to DC), so nothing unusual there. We had to go through 4 different security check-points, the first one with emigration, where they interviewed us together about where we go, how long, where we stay, name and address. The guy took no notes so, so I guess it's just routine. Then we were pulled from the line before the second checkpoint and asked to open our luggage. A lady started taking out every single item, in front of all the other people checking in, and emptied our luggage. For a moment I freked out as I had a small jar of crushed home-grown savoury, as gift for my family. I'm sure you can see the implications here, but I smiled before she even got arround to ask and said: "Spices". I must've looked either scared shitless or she only looked for stuff that blows-up because she moved on quickly. Then we moved on to the next checkpoint, where we went through the metal detector. Then, we arrived at the Air Canada lounge, where we're supposed to board. The room was isolated from the rest of the airport, with guards at the door. Once in, you cannot go out again, and there's no bathroom, tv, food, watter, or even a garbage can. Before being allowed to enter, we got split-up, and interogated separately about destination, timeline, address, people we will visit. Of course, we got frisked again, asked to take our shoes off, turn on/off electronic equipment (3rd time) and asked to sit down and keep quiet untill boarding time! Well, I can tell you that next time we will spend our vacation days somewhere else, where we don't feel treated like criminals. Last summer we had a vacation in Spain and we switched flights in Paris, before going to Madrid. We showed our passports once, in Paris. The airport in Madrid didn't even have customs for that flight, we walked right out. Quite a difference, and Madrid has been a terorism target for many years, but fear is not a political weapon.
keyboard not found! press any key to continue...
Why don't they save us all some time and just ask "Are you going to commit acts of terrorism during your stay ?"
This type of meaningless, naive, questioning reminds me of a form Brazilian passport holders (at least) need to fill every time they go into the US. The form goes something like:
PLEASE MARK WITH AN 'X' ANY TRUE STATEMENT BELOW:
( ) You commited crimes against mankind.
( ) You commited genocide.
( ) You are or have been a member of the Nazi party.
etc...
Asking that is absurd (I mean, would you expect a girl/boy to both commit genocide and to be girl/boy-scout honest?). But they do ask it, nevertheless... I kid you not, I kid you not. Oh, wow. We should better get used to the geniuses running the show.
Quem a paca cara compra, paca cara pagará.
Well I for one, will not be treated as a criminal (as a Europeean), because I will for sure not set foot in the USA again until this kind of stupid regulation is removed. What the hell! What would an American citizen think if he/she were to be fingerprinted while landing in London or Paris. Fuck that.
The biggest reason they would care is the return expense.
Supposing you aren't allowed entry into the country because you fail at a security check, as far as I understand it, they're responsible for sending you back to where you came from.
It's probably cost-effective for them to ask customers the security questions pre-flight.
This maybe a Homeland Security problem. On a recent trip back from Amsterdam, the flight attendants emphasized that non-US residents must provide the exact address of where they will be staying at their final destination in the customs form. They implied that failing to do so would result in their not being let out of the airport by passport control. Sounds like what happened here.
Of course, this begs the question: will they actually check with your hotel and/or your relatives and friends whether you will actually be where you said you will be? Probably not. And, if you innocently decide to go to a cheaper hotel after one night at the place you reported to DHS, will they arrest you before you leave the country? Not much sense in any of this.
"...who search the reason of things
Are those who bring the most sorrow on themselves." --Euripides, The Medea
1) All the intrusive security is NOT to stop terrorists, as a friend of mine in the airline security business told me , Its purpose is to reassure passengers that it's safe to fly, which is why airlines don't mind it too much (provided they don't have to bear the cost, which is why they resisted airmarshals for a time , they took up paying passengers seats). Governments especially of the right-wing we know best type, like it for a different reason it keeps security in peoples mind and justifies all sorts of oppressive behavior
being a regular flier for many years, it is not that strange for customs to ask you for such info, and the form is usealy presented to you by the airline prior to your landing. if you think a candian pass port is bad try traveling on a south african one with stamps from zimbabwe,
I'm a British Citizen, I'm always appalled at the immigration procedures whenever I enter the US - Last time I entered the US at Philadelphia - I was pulled asideby an immigration officer and interogated (briefly) - his question 'Why are you back so soon' (I'd made 2 trips to US in a month). Tourists to the US are ill-prepared for the sort of treatment they get when entering the US (Which is extremely poor).Poor treatment by rude immigration staff is universal whether you enter by Air/Sea or road (and I've done all of the above) and where-ever you go in the US.
BUT... on every occasion you enter the US under visa-waiver program - you are asked to give the address of where you are staying - this has been asked since way,way before the New York Terrorist attacks in Sept 2001. I don't think it is unreasonable.
A recent post on the US Embassy Website in the UK (http://www.usembassy.org.uk/cons_web/acs/passport s/dualpass1204.htm) shows that US citizens who travel the US MUST travel on their US passports, even if they hold dual-citizenship with another country. This guy was lucky they even let him board the plane - I'm pretty sure it was a favour extended to him because he held 'platinum' status. So... there is no story except... 'man breaks rules - nearly gets away with it - is indignant when he is caught.'
The rules may be arbitrary and stupid (and hey... US citizens at least had a say in electing the people who forced them through) but you can't blame the airlines or immigration staff for enforcing them.
They bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into. I say let'em crash.
For comparison purposes, I just heard on a documentary that the Pearl Harbor attack killed one thousand. And that was a successful attack, done by competent professionals.
Not that it legitimizes anybody's pet wars, but it sure is an interesting comparison.
I have reason to believe that the Platinum thing was just a convenient excuse for dropping it. What reason? you ask - well here goes.
1. This is not a USA thing - in my many visits to the US I've found the Feds to be very reasonable people.
2. This is only indirectly an AA thing - in that they employ the subcontractors responsible.
3. The "security prescreeners" (aka rentacops) at Gatwick are famous among frequent fliers for liking their jobs too much. There are many stories of them making up arbitary criteria just to enjoy a power trip.
4. When Cory called the supervisor on this he (the sup) couldn't say "I'm sorry sir, our employee is a power hungry egomaniac who's been exceeding their authority". Fortunately one's FF status is printed on the ininerary etc and in the PNR, thus providing the supervisor with a convenient excuse for dropping it.
5. I and many others who fly AA will no longer fly out of Gatwick because of the outrageous behaviour of the wannabees employed there.
Silly people. You don't have a "right" to fly. You're partaking in a commercial exchange of cash for flight privileges with a private company. That company has a right, and a responsibility to its other customers, to determine that any customer is legitimate.
From my understanding, these are the same types of questions that Israeli airlines routinely screen their passengers with and they've only had one hostage event in the last 30-40 years. It isn't so much the answers that they are interested in as it is the composure of the person answering them and their body language.
I look forward to a day when the "authorities" or the airline companies say fuck all about profiling and begin asking hard questions to anyone and everyone even the slightest bit suspicious. If you don't like it, get in your car and drive.
uuuuuuummmmmmmmmmmm, don`t be so hasty my friend. wait till "666" comes around...
I had to spend ten minutes explaining what quasars are to the security person!
But I actually like doing that sort of thing.
Professor of Astronomy, Author of Spider Star & Star Dragon (Tor)
Security in Israel does similar things. I think they ask many questions simply to see how you react and to get an impression of you. I guess it's some kind of weird psychological game dreamed up by people who are used to interrogating prisoners.
My conclusion is that if an airline/country has gotten so messed up that they need to do this as a regular matter of their normal travel procedures, I just don't go there anymore until they get their house in order. Fortunately, the US hasn't reached that level yet (although AA might).
Yes, it's a US thing. Over a year ago, the US asked Europe to inform them thoroughly about EVERYONE going to the US by plane. The information should include the addresses the people go to, all personal data and even one's creditcard number. It's insane. The European Parliament agrees it's insane. But, amongst others, the Dutch member Bolkestein was in favour of the US demands and managed to convice the European Parliament to agree with the US demands. Some political parties strongly object against this (like the Dutch political party D66 (liberal democrats), who are part of the European Liberal party, of which Bolkestein (from the Dutch political party VVD) is also a member) So far everyone's privacy when travelling to the US. I highly object against this breach of my privacy. I won't go to the US or any other country having similar requirements as long as they require me to give up my privacy. Unfortunately I don't think this situation will be ended soon. Economical reasons are far stronger than privacy reasons (I do have doubt if those reasons are really regarding safety - if so, can someone wake up those politicians involved, please?)
I'm from Europe, first time i went to the U.S. was pre 9/11. Arriving at Dulles they wanted to know where i was going, which address i was staying at, how much money i had, purpose of my stay etc. Maybe it was because i looked a little scruffy that they gave me a hard time (not having the address of the person who was to meet me at the airport didn't help either, i know kinda stupid not to bring at least that).
After 9/11 i usually had less trouble at customs (i've traveled to the U.S. another 3 or 4 times after). There's just the taking off of the shoes and belt and such and guys with machine guns were 'guarding' the airport right after 9/11. Last december I did have to give my fingerprints and got my picture taken though, but i believe next time i travel to the U.S. i need biometric information on my passport to get in anyway.
One thing that hasn't changed much seems to be that every time i'm on a plane there's always some lady knitting a sweater with these huge knitting pens...
Sample this!
For comparison purposes, I just heard on a documentary that the Pearl Harbor attack killed one thousand. And that was a successful attack, done by competent professionals.
And over 100,000 people in the US (most of them US citizens) were sent to 'relocation' camps based solely on their race.
Like you say, this doesn't legitimize any questionable decisions made by recent US Presidents (naming no names). But it is weird that some people regard FDR as the greatest president of the 20th century.
i had the same experience last summer going from canada to the states with a canadian passport. i was denied entry on the grounds that i couldn't prove that i wasn't going to work illegally. the next day i came back with finacial documents and after three hours of interviews(and having my journal scanned for thier records (against my will)) was again denied on the grounds that the person interviewing me had been working at his job for three years and couldn't afford a three month vacation. although i should point out i had none of these problems when i returned a month later with an american passport. (immediatly apon my return, i went to the embassy and had my citizenship revoked)
I agree that the measures may not be the most efficient or effective, but reeeaaaallly now, is it that difficult to deal with???
Having had a sister get her head bashed in by police when stepping of a bus while visiting Chile, seeing pictures of Muslims in Sudan killing 800,000 black, and reading (today) about the insects people living on the Amazon have to deal with everyday...
Hunger is the best sauce.
To make things worse the guy or gal doing the checking was probably a rent-a-cop or such like with quality 'id' badge that would get laughed at by any teen producing fake ID.
I had a run-in with the AA pre-checkin security at Gatwick last spring on my way over to Dallas. Unfortunately my One World card got downgraded and i had to suffer queuing in economy/coach lines. Another unfortunate thing was my ticket was issued 2 days before since my company issued the tickets late. As a result i was asked:
- Where i was going
- where i was staying
- a business card, to prove i worked for that company
- an employee id badge
- additional photo id - which is not a legal requirement to produce in the UK - yet...
- if had any electrical equipment
- if it had been serviced recently, it had
- by who
- what changes were made
- how long was it away for
and a whole bunch of other stuff.
Compare that with flying a few months later with Virgin Atlantic or BA to JFK, there was no interrogation. Given a choice of airline i will not be flying AA again.
Anyway the cabin crew are friendlier and better looking on those airlines...
It's like you think the police don't have any rights. (A) They were put in charge of security and preventing crimes, and then convicting anyone who has committed them. (B) They have rights under the constitution.
Did you know that you can be held for 24 hours without charges and without reason? Did you know that you can be arrested without reason? Did you know that when a police officer asks you a question, and you tell something other than the truth, you are committing a crime?
These FBI agents were well within their rights. While this lady may believe she is part of this ultra-peaceful Gandhi-worshipping group, ten to one, there are members who don't think that way. She did the right thing - tell the truth, cooperate fully, and otherwise, stay out of the way. She also did the right thing in telling her story. But I wouldn't read anything into it. Her rights weren't violated.
She might want to find out if any warrants have been issued against her organization, or even herself. I wouldn't be surprised if the FBI was monitoring the group with a valid warrant.
The radical sect of Islam would either see you dead or "reverted" to Islam.
Hi! Welcome to my country. I work and toil in this country, pay taxes, and such. You do not. You are a visitor. You are here because I allow you to be. When your time is up, you must promptly leave. Thanks for visiting, but I didn't agree to let you live here.
If I see you doing something suspicious, I'll be watching you. If you are associating with the wrong crowd, I'll get a little too close for your comfort. If you threaten my country, or commit a crime, you're gone for good.
I have a right to know why you are here and what you are doing. I have a right to verify your story. If I don't like what you are doing or if you lie to me, I have a right to kick you out of my country.
I am sure you would feel the same way when I go visit you.
The radical sect of Islam would either see you dead or "reverted" to Islam.
Funnily, travelling on a Canadian passport, as a Canadian citizen but being resident in the UK, was the absolute worst of both worlds. The Canadians were very suspicious and treated me as a foreign resident (which meant long waits and lots of questions) while the UK treated me as a foreign citizen (separate queues, long waits and a couple of questions). I find it's now easier, and faster, for me to travel to Canada on my UK passport despite being a Canadian citizen.
As a young working class irish immigrant, I was subject to all of these hassles and more right up until Muslims replaced Catholics the new niggers/"potential terrorists" of the UK.
This kind of treatment when travelling is an accepted part of the life of me, my family, and my friends. It amuses me when the upper classes (I will make this assumption seeing as the author of the article holds a high level frequent flyer card) get so outraged at being treated in the same way as the Hoi Polloi.
There are many points to be derived from this article, but perhaps the most powerful (and unintentional) is how some people expect to exempt from suspicion of being a terrorist under any circumstances. I really hope that it is not the policy of airlines to exempt frequent business travellers from security checks.
Airport security is a sham, there are plenty of securtity-gimps having power trips, but they're not going to stop anyone determined, hell, they didn't stop me..
I carry a leatherman wave on my belt every day, so it wasn't until I was being searched prior to boarding a flight from Heathrow (UK) to JFK did I realise I still had it. Those things are expensive, and I didn't want them to just throw it in the box of "look what we've confiscated!" But the security guy just took it out, looked in the pouch to see if I was hiding drugs, put it back in, and sent me on my merry way.
Never, *never* change flights in the US if you can possibly avoid it. It's an absolute pain in the arse. As you state, the security people have no concept of the idea of "transit"; you have to enter the country and then leave again. I particularly liked the way I had to grab my baggage off the carousel and dump it (in an unsecured corner!) to be picked up and taken on the outgoing flight.
Some truth in there as well as fun. I've backpacked around the world and quite a lot of countries ask where you're staying, who you're staying with, and often you don't have a clue. As another poster said, often the countries just want to make sure you've got enough money to cover your stay and you're not going to become an illegal immigrant (and hence presumably suck money from their society or something). Simple solution which seems to have worked for me so far is to borrow/buy a traveller's guide before you enter the country and find the address of a budget hotel in the town the airport is. Write this into the box which asks where you're staying. I've never been questioned about the validity of my answer, either in very democratic or very totalitarian countries, where this is the sole requirement on the forms. I've always been prepared for the customs guys to say "we've phoned them and they don't have your reservation" and I'm ready just to say "I phoned them last night and they said they had rooms, just turn up, could you therefore recommend another reasonably priced hotel for me to stay as a tourist please?".
n.b. there are some countries which may require you to have a letter of welcome/ reservation confirmed at approved hotel in order to enter the country, this is a different issue.
It was probably the same arrangement as Canadian Passports (ie no visa required unless you "are a member of a terrorist organisation" (in which case you are required to contact a US embassy to apply for a visa)
I had to list the exact addresses of each hotel I was staying in (which I didn't actually know and had to use the inflight magazine to find out) I also had to give them both of my index fingerprints and allow them to take a picture of my face without smiling (probably for biometrics - which were built into my passport anyway).
The last thing I had to do (after I said I wanted to declare some fruit) was promise an immigration official I was not coming into the country to commit a terrorist act or other crime.
So that was great after 24 hours of travelling without sleep. Even better was when I returned to Australia and was required to wait in the Aircraft while the flight attendants emptied 4 cans of flyspray in my part of the cabin alone. Sig Hail King Johnny Howard!
"Those who cast the votes decide nothing. Those who count the votes decide everything" -- Josef Stalin
Im An Australian that lives in the US and now I refuse to travel through Canada on any connecting flight after being hassled so many times. .If I fly direct to JFK or stop in a friendly country like Japan or Korea for a stopover I have no problems and being one of the few cuacasians that speaks english on those particular flights when arrive in New York im usually told by a immigration official to get on the end of the locals line so I get through immigration in about 15 mins most days and when the customs guys that check my bag say how are you today hear my Australian accent they let me go .In Australia when you leave you go into a customs area and a Immigration Official takes your paperwork.The best bet is not to transfer through Canada for anything if you are trying to get gain entry to the US its a good way to recive a red flag.
I am usually red flagged and harrassed by Canadaian Immigration what my bussiness is in the US I tell them my Wife and Kids may not be happy if I dont get back in to the US and that usually stops them in thier tracks.
When I get to the US immigration Gate in Canada if any its a few questions why the the Canadians may have questioned me if any and a thourgh check of my luggage and then fly into JFK no prolems
When flying out of JFK to Australia the Airline Desk process the imigration papers ect
I once wanted to go to (from UK) to Washington for Christmas, then Sydney for Jan, then home. Northwest airlines gave the best price. That meant that my return flight was Sydney - Honolulu - Los Angeles - Detroit - Somewhere else - London. When we arrived at LA immigration wanted the address where we were going to stay, (they always ask for that). We didn't have one, we were 'in transit' through the states. Even though we had the tickets, they wouldn't accept that (it probably doesn't happen very often). In the end we gave the British embassy in Washington as contact address and they were happy. Idiots.
***You learn something Every day. And then you die.***
Its amazing the questions they ask when you get into the country, I've been to europe twice last year, and came back on my UK passport to the US, I'm a green card holder and have been for about 4 or 5 years now. The questions they ask, are well just plain old weird, things like, where do I live, how am I going to get there, where abouts in the state is it, how long will it take me, weird shit like that, I just found it very odd. Then my Girlfriend who is a citizen, doesn't even get asked anything, she ends up having a conversation about Penn State with the guy and thats it.
...Will be staying in the (name of city) Marriott Hotel" and be done with it.
I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
the three thousand figure is interesting, because over 3000 people die every year in car accidents on the UKs roads.
They arent all rich lawyers, and they don't die live on television, so it seems nothing gets done.
Tens of thousands died in one day at bhopal due to incompetence, nothing was done as a result.
Kinda puts into perspective this endless war on terrorism that Bush dreamt up.
(BTW didn't Bush's mob FUND terrorists like the taliban a while back???)
DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
I generally set aside a couple hours for intergration and questioning in any western passport and customs control area. Unforuntly its cost me a few connecting flights.
I'm a westerner, and I've traveled a bit, my passport has the stamp of pretty much any country that has considered supporting terrisom or currently at war with someone. The other thing that gets to them is I dont travel with luggage, i find it slows me down a bit. You notice that the more well traveled someone is, the less luggage they carry.
My standard responses are holiday and keep smiling. I think the smiling helps. You just have to remain positive. tell them some tales of how nice the country was. and sometimes your lucky and get someone nice.
So why *not* perform ethnic profiling, at least on this group?
it dilutes freedom and liberty for the entire population.
I recently traveled to the UK and was suprised when the officer asked me who I'd be staying with there. When I said we'd just be backpacking and finding places, he pushed me to at least give him the name of some of the hostels we planned on staying at.
You will be dead soon, but not soon enough.
--
make install -not war
Freakin' New World Order Neo-Con Make-Believe OT's, and their Iron Grip on Policy.
You diabetics have an excuse! US Scientologists get beat up!
I'm a diabetic and I correspond extensively via various lists with diabetics all over the world. Almost always, being on the pump means you ask for an out-of-the-normal-flow inspection, it's granted, and you go on. In fact, in many cases just saying you're a diabetic to explain all that weird stuff you're carrying is treated as a free pass. The little light bulb goes off over the head of the searcher-drone, they file away this explanation for what they're seeing, close the bag, and say "Next, please."
If you're actually getting static about being on the pump, I want to know where. Seriously. There are several mailing lists where that sort of specific information would be highly appreciated.
(BTW didn't Bush's mob FUND terrorists like the taliban a while back???)
Yep. That's what happens when "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" becomes part of foreign policy. The taliban were fighting against the Soviets, so the taliban became the "Good Guys".
Reminds me of a quote from "Things Republicans Believe", available (among other places) at http://www.stallman.org/republicanBeliefs.html
"Saddam was a good guy when Reagan armed him, a bad guy when Bush's daddy made war on him, a good guy when Cheney did business with him and a bad guy when Bush needed a "we can't find Bin Laden" diversion."
So... there is no story except... 'man breaks rules - nearly gets away with it - is indignant when he is caught.'
For the love of Zarquon! will someone PLEASE read the flipping article!
Go on.. it won't hurt. I'll wait here.
Okay, are you done? did you read it? Excellent. You will now be aware of the following points.
1. The author is familiar with standard immigration procedure and forms, having been through them in the past.
2. The author was not asked to give these details by immigrations, but by an AA employee who was unable to give any justification for it.
3. The author was not presented with an immigrations form but a blank sheet of paper.
4. The author was waived straight through when a senior manager discovered he was part of the airline's priviledged customer program.
5. Your assertion that he broke some kind of rules is totally incorrect
Around here (BC, Canada) the X-rays are available as digital pics and can easily be printed. Not only are they easy to pull up, but anyone on the system (any city) can grab them. My doc also happily printed me out a few copies of my various x-rays, nothing special just a printout from the office laser printer.
I suppose the might charge for a glossy print, but I'd be surprised if they charged much for just whipping one off on the laserprinter.
For those that don't know, what exactly is this number?
Vegetarians eat vegetables; I'm a humanitarian myself....
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
If the country has leftover fascist passport-control laws, wherever I stay may want to see a passport, but even so, I've never had anywhere that the immigration bureauthugs were bothered by not knowing where I was staying.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
The Supreme Court has never nailed down a specific number, but 48 hours is definitely in the approved category - and they can grab you on a Thursday, keep you in jail until Saturday morning, and oh, darn, there's no judge on duty until Monday who can authorize releasing you, so you're stuck there until Monday.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
If this were the Customs Service, he wouldn't encounter them until he arrived at his destination airport or international gateway airport with his luggage, and then they might treat his luggage rudely and get dog slobber on it, but they're interested in the stuff in the luggage. If the stuff appeared to be business goods, they might question him in ways determining if he were planning to sell it or take it back with him, but unless it was especially valuable and fungible, it'd be unlikely that they'd treat him worse than Canadian customs treats business travellers with merchandise.
This wasn't even the TSA Security Mafia. They don't have rules that are printed that citizens or non-citizens can see, because then citizens would be able to argue with them. If they feel like always strip-searching large-breasted women in public, they'll do it. But still, if they want documents, they either want documents that somebody else already prepared, or they'll use forms.
This is the "make the airlines handle security" process, which the US has used for a decade or so. There's no well-defined rules for what security checking they provide - it just has to be "good enough" for the FAA to accept it, and the agreements between the airlines and the Feds are proprietary and individual. That means that the airlines can require more than any actual laws require, and some airport and some bureaucrat at some airport can require whatever the airline or bureaucrat feels like. The one consistent property is that the airlines will always tell you that it's because of FAA rules, and they'll always tell you that "it's always been that way", and if you challenge them about how they don't require the same things at other airports, they'll give you some bogus line, either about "well they're certainly *supposed* to follow that policy there", but fundamentally, it's the *airline* deciding what to require, not the Feds, so they're not limited to Constitutionally supported requirements - they can do anything they want. The Feds sometimes give them extra instructions, but it's still the airline's policy.
What's especially annoying is that when the ID rules were introduced, which was after the hijacking-to-Cuba days but before terrorism, the real motivation was to prevent people from buying cheap tickets in advance or getting frequent flywe tickets and selling them to other people cheaper than last-minute airline business-travel fares. Big businesses buying tickets for their employees and big travel agents selling to vacationers and small businesses were threatening to trash the entire pricing model of the industry, and it was much easier to get the Feds to help them out by requiring ID for named-passenger tickets than to fight it out in the market.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
Sure, you Cubs fans know that the address is less recognizeable than 1600 Pennsylvania Ave :-), but if Chicago's not on your itinerary, almost every major airport has a Marriott on the grounds or near by, and nobody knows the address because they get picked up by the little shuttle-bus. If you prefer a lower-end hotel, Comfort Inn seems to be more common than Motel 6, and if they check, the "damn, the travel department always loses my reservation" seems to work.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
When I was travelling in Eastern Europe in the early 90s, the immigration polizei did stop the train at the borders and inspect all our papers in a couple of places, and hauled off some Turkish-looking guy at one stop. But especially travelling by train or ferryboat, it was expected that staying at penziones was normal, and since the relative elimination of passport control between EU countries, I got less of that.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks