Agreed. How do you expect to change that though? Debian is, by nature, a very open project, and as such places like debian-user and #debian are relatively unmoderated. Do you want to close off the lists somehow? Do you want to moderate them? Who do you propose to do the job? And by what guidelines? And by what mechanism? These are serious questions, and they don't have easy answers. "Fixing" a community isn't easy
We fix it the same way Debian is run, by open participation.
The people who will slam someone for asking an "unworthy question" when they have just ignored the question are also people who are very sensitive to and malleable by public censure.
When one of these losers slams someone for asking an "unworthy" question all that is necessary is that someone else say something like:
Hey, we are not about that here. If you aren't interested in that question just ignore it.
Thats it.
The person who stands up to the bully can stop right there, answer that users question, or add politiely:
There is a lot of good documentation out there. People in this forum prefer you try to find your answer there first before coming here. We don't like repeating what has already been written. Try
___, or _____ good luck.
All of which is far less typing then the usual flames you mentioned ( I've seen them too ).
There is no need to immature or to work against Debian project goals of attracting more end users.
To put it on the edge, it is not like they get paid to sit there and answer questions five minutes of Google or a manual lookup can answer.
True, but nobody is forcing them to answer any questions.
If the find a question boring they can just ignore it.
The fact that they don't and that they are smart enough to know that the internet/irc/usenet is voluntary only leaves the reasons of immaturity/hostility/etc as a reason for slamming people.
Yah, Debian users are a "special breed" like the other poster mentioned.
"This is an implicit call for participation for all those people inside and outside Debian who work on the same goal: Enhance the role of Debian as the missing link between upstream software developers and end users."
If Debian wants a link between upstream software developers and end users they should do a few more simple tasks first IMHO:
- get a real usenet group, not just a gated email
list
- create a friendly user community that doesn't
slam people for asking questions "improperly"
On the first point, debian-users is a huge, high traffic list that. Being able to pop into usenet is preferable for someone with only an occasional question. The gated list has failed.
On the second point, people can & do to get turned away from a product by rude encounters.
Yah, some people claim that is fine that they don't want "your kind of user", but the quote above belies the fact that the Debian project people want end users.
All of the excuses for slamming people are washed away by the simple fact that reading and posting on the internet is 100% voluntary.
If someone thinks a question is unworthy they should not waste their time by finishing reading it and they certainly shouldn't spend their time answering the question.
Doing and complaining,/i> about either given the voluntary nature of the internet makes them look like a mean loser.
It also drives the end users the Debian project people say they want away.
Steve
Both of these points are about providing accessible help and support.
There are plenty of nice word processors for the *nix desktop.
The big issue is M$ Word compatibility. The word processes that do it best ( OO, StarOffice ) have big SLOW cloogy interfaces no one likes.
A need for any more newword processors for *nix could be settled if the various OSS word processor developers:
- establish an OSS project that did nothing but
make a portable module/class that did nothing
but translate M$ Word files. All of the
projects could contribute to this module and all
of them would have the latest, greatest M$
compatibility at the same time. This would also
( god I hate this term ) save each of the
projects the work of "having to reinvent the
wheel" in regards to keeping up with M$.
- establish a standard OSS file format set for all
OSS office projects. Again, this would save
them and new projects the work of
making/maintaining their own. It would also
help loosen the grip of M$ *.doc and *.rtf as
the defacto standards. People would know that
if they saved their files to *.oss that EVERYONE
else would be able to read it. M$ may even be
pressured in modifying office to save into
*.oss.
What the *nix desktop doesn't need is another word processor app.
6 years ago when PCs were much more expensive and I was on a junior programmer's salary I struggled to buy one of their machines.
While the sale was being made they treated me perfectly.
However, later, long after the sale, when I sought help in buying components( possibly from *Gateway* ) to add their PC their response was patently flippant.....on several occasions.
I vowed right then never to buy another Gateway PC......I haven't.....and I will not.
If I had spent that kind of money on anyother product that companies salesperson would have treated me much better, especially if I wanted to buy more things from their company.
I saw some truth in the things you wrote, but what I kept thinking over and over again was "Uncle Tom".
I take pride in my work and being easy to work with.
If that is not enough, so be it, label me a "3", and I will go get another job.
I have desire to become a stepford employee
I haven't been feeling all that great about my job.
I don't get to do all the programming I want and I have to answer to a lot non-IT people.
Its pleasant enough on a daily level, pays well, and is stable.
After reading some of the horror stories here I feel really appreciative
On the one hand this doesn't sound like anything a seasoned linux user couldn't do for her/himself for free.
I run icewm, some of what I think are the best apps, and only one app per function ( okay, I have 3 editors installed....but this is *linux* ).
However for people who want to support OSS, try an alternative, don't have a lot of time for system futzing around, don't have a lot of tech knowledge, and don't like bloat this could be a nice solution.
I see a similar niche for people who want to recycle old, small footprint hardware but don't have the expertise to make such systems work.
If you don't know a lot about hardware/nix, don't have time to learn, or have higher priorties you are stuck with the bloat of the easier distros.
Steve
People like to have an alternative to go to.
However, if it is not something they feel strongly about they do not want to spend their limited time and energy on alternatives.
That is one thing many of the more vocal yokels in the linux community do not get when they ROTFM, "GOOGLE", or scold someone for asking a question without digging through a bunch of web pages.
If you are not an enthusiast, you may not have the time or want to spend the time to make that alternative work.
To make many alternatives work involves searching, reading specialized docs ( howtos, man pages etc ), futzing, and getting use to overdone interfaces.
Too much information
Give up television totally.
- You will not have any cable bill.
- If you have kids you will not spend money on junk
advertisements aimed at children programmed your
kids to nag you into buying.
- You will gain several hours a week to devote to
other things.
- Many studies have shown that people who watch
less TV weigh less
You are not backed by a mountain of cash. IBM's products are. If you are a programmer your livliehood is disposable to them as soon as they find a cheaper country to ship their jobs to.
It seems like so much of the tech stuff is about communication: digital tv, email, web sites, pocket phones, pocket video phones, text pagers, online books, online music, electronic books etc ad nauesum.
What about the content?
I'm sure somone else has already pointed out the lack of it on televison.
Do people really talk about anything important on their cell phones, IMs, emails, text pages etc? etc?
We may have more ways to say it, but do we have anyting better/new to say?
Because many distros will not ship non-free software by default. This greatly limits the usefulness of Java as a general development language for Linux applications. They are shooting themselves in the foot on this one.
So What?
I have developing in Java for 5 years and using linux for about 2-3.
I'm not a hardcore linux person and I have always found Java **EASY** to install, and a lot easier to set up then many thing linux
This debate is not about any great injustice or even any great hardship.
Its about GPL/OSS ( devotees ) wanting to have every last detail line up in being able to ship Java the way they want.
Its a *minor* nuisance at best and for that price we get a decent language that is a strong competitor to M$ that is not bastardized.
There are plenty of more worthy open issues to get anal about in GNU/OSS/Linux.
Some of the conveniences KDE has brought to linux are worthwhile, so I disagree about not wanting more features.
Perhaps the KDE/GNOME people should establish a well defined list of "must have" features.....the 20% of conveniences/cool stuff that will attract 80% of the users.....implement them and then move on to augmenting the operational quality of the software.
Slashdot Mirror
Excellent! Added it to my sig :)
You don't have to subscribe a usenet group.
Subscribing to high volume mailing lists in not that attractive.
You can also search usenet groups with google as well as post/read it from the web.
Steve
The people who will slam someone for asking an "unworthy question" when they have just ignored the question are also people who are very sensitive to and malleable by public censure.
When one of these losers slams someone for asking an "unworthy" question all that is necessary is that someone else say something like:
Thats it.The person who stands up to the bully can stop right there, answer that users question, or add politiely:
All of which is far less typing then the usual flames you mentioned ( I've seen them too ).There is no need to immature or to work against Debian project goals of attracting more end users.
Steve
If the find a question boring they can just ignore it.
The fact that they don't and that they are smart enough to know that the internet/irc/usenet is voluntary only leaves the reasons of immaturity/hostility/etc as a reason for slamming people.
Yah, Debian users are a "special breed" like the other poster mentioned.
Steve
My post made the point that they are simulataneously wanting a particular end and doing things to make that desired end not happen
There is a word for that and that word is not "smart" :).
If M$ made a database of all M$ vulnerablilities would M$ database software be good enough to handle it?
- get a real usenet group, not just a gated email list
- create a friendly user community that doesn't slam people for asking questions "improperly"
On the first point, debian-users is a huge, high traffic list that. Being able to pop into usenet is preferable for someone with only an occasional question. The gated list has failed.
On the second point, people can & do to get turned away from a product by rude encounters.
Yah, some people claim that is fine that they don't want "your kind of user", but the quote above belies the fact that the Debian project people want end users.
All of the excuses for slamming people are washed away by the simple fact that reading and posting on the internet is 100% voluntary.
If someone thinks a question is unworthy they should not waste their time by finishing reading it and they certainly shouldn't spend their time answering the question.
Doing and complaining,/i> about either given the voluntary nature of the internet makes them look like a mean loser.
It also drives the end users the Debian project people say they want away.
Steve Both of these points are about providing accessible help and support.
And look what wonderful shape their country is in :)
There are plenty of nice word processors for the *nix desktop. The big issue is M$ Word compatibility. The word processes that do it best ( OO, StarOffice ) have big SLOW cloogy interfaces no one likes. A need for any more newword processors for *nix could be settled if the various OSS word processor developers: - establish an OSS project that did nothing but make a portable module/class that did nothing but translate M$ Word files. All of the projects could contribute to this module and all of them would have the latest, greatest M$ compatibility at the same time. This would also ( god I hate this term ) save each of the projects the work of "having to reinvent the wheel" in regards to keeping up with M$. - establish a standard OSS file format set for all OSS office projects. Again, this would save them and new projects the work of making/maintaining their own. It would also help loosen the grip of M$ *.doc and *.rtf as the defacto standards. People would know that if they saved their files to *.oss that EVERYONE else would be able to read it. M$ may even be pressured in modifying office to save into *.oss. What the *nix desktop doesn't need is another word processor app.
6 years ago when PCs were much more expensive and I was on a junior programmer's salary I struggled to buy one of their machines.
While the sale was being made they treated me perfectly.
However, later, long after the sale, when I sought help in buying components( possibly from *Gateway* ) to add their PC their response was patently flippant.....on several occasions.
I vowed right then never to buy another Gateway PC......I haven't.....and I will not.
If I had spent that kind of money on anyother product that companies salesperson would have treated me much better, especially if I wanted to buy more things from their company.
Losers.
Steve
Making an interface ( console or GUI ) *is* hard.
However, if you want more people to use your application ( or even some depending on how bad your interface is ) you have got to do it.
Maybe this article will keep some ignoramnus from dismissing this kind of work as "merely eye candy".
Steve
I saw some truth in the things you wrote, but what I kept thinking over and over again was "Uncle Tom". I take pride in my work and being easy to work with. If that is not enough, so be it, label me a "3", and I will go get another job. I have desire to become a stepford employee
I haven't been feeling all that great about my job. I don't get to do all the programming I want and I have to answer to a lot non-IT people. Its pleasant enough on a daily level, pays well, and is stable. After reading some of the horror stories here I feel really appreciative
of network or cable tw.........sure.....
What crap, I can't understand people who spend more then two hours a week watching free TV let alone spending over $100 a month for the crap on cable.
Steve
On the one hand this doesn't sound like anything a seasoned linux user couldn't do for her/himself for free. I run icewm, some of what I think are the best apps, and only one app per function ( okay, I have 3 editors installed....but this is *linux* ). However for people who want to support OSS, try an alternative, don't have a lot of time for system futzing around, don't have a lot of tech knowledge, and don't like bloat this could be a nice solution. I see a similar niche for people who want to recycle old, small footprint hardware but don't have the expertise to make such systems work. If you don't know a lot about hardware/nix, don't have time to learn, or have higher priorties you are stuck with the bloat of the easier distros. Steve
The "best" shows are already on cable.
How many recent network tv shows make money by being sold on DVDs in bookstores?
That said there is a lot of crap on cable.
If people paid by channel.......or even by show it would further reward the good stuff and it would suffocate out the trash.
Maybe the sci-fi channel would finally get the message(s) their alienated former fan base tried to give to them.
Maybe the cable companies would get the message about excessive commericals if less people bought shows with too many.
Vive La Choice!
Steve
Why should someone who only watches 2 hours of television a week pay the same for a couch potato who watches 15 hours?
Just a thought
People like to have an alternative to go to. However, if it is not something they feel strongly about they do not want to spend their limited time and energy on alternatives. That is one thing many of the more vocal yokels in the linux community do not get when they ROTFM, "GOOGLE", or scold someone for asking a question without digging through a bunch of web pages. If you are not an enthusiast, you may not have the time or want to spend the time to make that alternative work. To make many alternatives work involves searching, reading specialized docs ( howtos, man pages etc ), futzing, and getting use to overdone interfaces. Too much information
Give up television totally. - You will not have any cable bill. - If you have kids you will not spend money on junk advertisements aimed at children programmed your kids to nag you into buying. - You will gain several hours a week to devote to other things. - Many studies have shown that people who watch less TV weigh less
You are not backed by a mountain of cash. IBM's products are. If you are a programmer your livliehood is disposable to them as soon as they find a cheaper country to ship their jobs to.
Phoefirebirdfox ?
It seems like so much of the tech stuff is about communication: digital tv, email, web sites, pocket phones, pocket video phones, text pagers, online books, online music, electronic books etc ad nauesum.
What about the content?
I'm sure somone else has already pointed out the lack of it on televison.
Do people really talk about anything important on their cell phones, IMs, emails, text pages etc? etc?
We may have more ways to say it, but do we have anyting better/new to say?
Steve
I have developing in Java for 5 years and using linux for about 2-3.
I'm not a hardcore linux person and I have always found Java **EASY** to install, and a lot easier to set up then many thing linux
This debate is not about any great injustice or even any great hardship.
Its about GPL/OSS ( devotees ) wanting to have every last detail line up in being able to ship Java the way they want.
Its a *minor* nuisance at best and for that price we get a decent language that is a strong competitor to M$ that is not bastardized.
There are plenty of more worthy open issues to get anal about in GNU/OSS/Linux.
Steve
Which language is more marginalized and which community smaller? Rexx or Lisp?
Some of the conveniences KDE has brought to linux are worthwhile, so I disagree about not wanting more features. Perhaps the KDE/GNOME people should establish a well defined list of "must have" features.....the 20% of conveniences/cool stuff that will attract 80% of the users.....implement them and then move on to augmenting the operational quality of the software.