Mmm interesting. So what you are saying is that linux developers should see into the future and make drivers for the hundreds of devices that will be made in the coming years and make sure those drivers are included in your distribution.
I don't know, that seems like a tall order and I don't think the part about seeing into the future is even possible.
I propose a compromise. What if they published a list of products known to work for sure. That way you can avoid buying devices you know are not supported.
WOW. I have never had any version of windows recognize any hardware on any optiplex. Not even the network card. I have always had to go and download the drivers from another machine and put them on a USB key so I can get the network going.
I think you are right. Most MS shops are outright hostile towards anything not made by MS and treat any mention of open source as an act of war. While you are not likely to be fired for using MS products in a linux shop you could very well be fired for using open source products in an MS shop. If not fired then for sure passed over for promotions and such.
If you are a geek who cares about open source and you work in a Ms shop then you should take a look at leaving. Everytime you open your mouth or one of your bosses or co-workers see you surfy with firefox you are handed a mental demerit.
That's overly simplistic. The fact is that TODAY the state of Israel is acting in an uncivilized manner towards people it is occupying illegally. If any other country in the world tortured people, took over private property, built walls, killed thousands of innocents, destroyed houses of people whose only crime was to be related to a criminal then they would be invaded by the US and the leaders jailed.
Notice that I am in no way, shape or form defending what the palestenians do, I am simply pointing out that Israel acts as an uncivilized nation. As the grandparent said, imagine if Mexico formed armed and walled cities in texas by displacing texans from their homes and then lauchned missiles into Huston every time an American shot at a mexican occupying force.
It's wrapped in a GUI for every linux distribution I can think of. Is there a linux distribution you are thinking of that does not have gui for its package managmenet?
As for the rest I agree. It's insane to try and install softwar for windows. You have to go on the internet and try to find what you want. You have to down load it and most of the time unzip it. You have to install it by clicking on a half a dozen dialog boxes and agreeing to sacrifice your first borm to them and even then they spew files all over your filesystem.
Linux is so much easier. Distros like ubuntu, novell, fedora, xandros, linspire make it trivial to install software for linux. I wish windows was that easy.
Right, two things work one doesn't just like linux. Worse with my cars. The tires don't interchange, the engines don't swap, the transmissions don't swap, the seats are not interchangeable it goes on and on. In my car virtually 90% of the parts are not interchangable with another car.
Much worse then linux. Oddly enough people still keep buying cars. Go figure.
"There is no consolidated repository for source "packages," there is no way of externally mapping dependencies or handling them automatically. There is no hard-and-fast way of installing them that works for every source package, and above all, it's time consuming and potentially confusing for a first-time user. "
All that can be said about windows software too. It doesn't seem to have hurt them too much though.
"But look at any market (autos, consumer electronics) and you'll see that, eventually, controls and media and connectors and whatnot do consolidate and standardize, because people also tend to want things to work, and to work the way that they're used to."
I looked and I am not seeing the same thing you are. I was unable to plug the power cord from my portable CD palyer into my ipod. The headphones worked OK though. So some stuff worked some didn't, just like linux.
Not really. Or at least these things should never even get to a trial. Look at the SCO case. It's been dragging on for years now and SCO hasn't even shown one line of infringing code.
I hate to say this but it sounds like you are doing a piss poor job of educating your customers about what you are selling and what they are buying.
If you ask me you have left yourself open to litigation when one of your customers sues you for not "delivering" the web site to a potential customer or vendor.
"It is the same thing. And it isn't "innovative". IBM have been doing it for years."
It's the same thing? Is that your position? that paravirtualization is the same thing as virtualization?
"No there isn't."
Well now there is a powerful and compelling argument if I ever saw one. I am kind of surprised you didn't say "is not!" or "is too!".
"But I don't have to use T-SQL to write sprocs in SQL Server. You do understand that, right?"
Really? You can? In triggers? Manipulating the recordsets as they are changed? I thought not. Sure you can use XP_CMDSHELL or similar thing but A) MS does not reccomend it, B) you run into security issues, and C) It's kind of crippled.
"They're not working "like a dog". They've put it on the back burner."
They have admitted that they can't do it on time. Perhaps they are not as smart as the apple employees.
"ASP and ASP.NET have next to nothing in common, and Ruby on Rails doesn't even begin to make ASP.NET look like "yesterdays turd"."
Oooh another great argument. DOES TOO!.
"Er... they have."
Did NOT!. Hey keep lying though, it only makes me look better.
"What the hell are you talking about? There is no single way to resolve multiple dispatch ambiguities; CLOS and Dylan, for example, both use different and incompatible schemes. Neither is clearly better than the other. And this is a big problem with multiple dispatch."
Did I say there was only one way to do it? I said.NET doesn't support it and parrot does.
"Single dispatch has behaviour that's obviously and intuitively correct. Multiple dispatch doesn't. MI has issues of its own, but the solutions are better understood and (I believe) statically detectable."
When MS finally get around to implementing those on.NET MS shillboys and astroturfers like you will change your tune.
"But, of course, you just spout typical ABM FUD. If MS doesn't do something it must be great."
I never said that. I simply said there is more innovation in the open source world then in MS. If MS doesn't do it it's because they are not innovative.
"and anyone who says otherwise is spewing FUD."
Nah. If you spread FUD you are spewing FUD. You are spewing FUD. Just another shill on slashdot. You guys are dime a dozen around here.
"As far as I can tell, high performance full-text search. i.e. searching data, not metadata."
You can't tell very far can you. Go look at how Apple stores and searches METADATA and the DATA (when it's accessable). When you save a PDF, JPG, MP3 or whatever OS-X extracts the metadata, stores it and indexes it. MS is trying desparately to implement the same thing. Time will tell if they succeed and to what degree. If it's like everything else they do it will be lame as hell.
"I don't know about Novell, but IBM have been doing virtualization similar to that of Xen for probably decades."
Xen is not virtualization technology. It's paravirtualization. Not the same thing and quite innovative.
"I don't know about user definable "operators" (though I must concede I can't really see the need), but UDTs and UDFs are commonplace, and the need for "user loadable stored procedure languages" seems to be largely obsoleted by such things as compiled stored procedures (e.g. "extended stored procedures" in MSSQL). So I'm not particularly overwhelmed by your list of features...."
There is a profound difference between a UDF (which even mysql has) and a user defined aggregate functions and operators. Just because you don't see the need for them that doesn't mean it's not innovative or useful. I myself have made use of them many times and they make the impossible possible. It's wonderful to make your own data types and write the operators to make comparisons and define functions like max and min for them. Just to give you one example you can then run a query like select point from points where point is fartest away from circle. Postgres allows you to code your stored procs in TCL, PL-SQL, PERL, Python and Java due it's flexable architecture. If you are happy with the lame T-SQL then more power to ya.
those just the surface of the innovations in postgres, I still haven't gone into the rule subsystem which is stunning or compiled stored procs in C or the dozens of other innovations in there. It's clear you are completely ignorant of the capabilities of postgres.
"This might be an interesting question if metadata mattered worth a damn."
Yes, that's why MS is working like a dog on winfs to try and copy of the features of reiser3.
"Well gee, ya think? You haven't noticed how ASP isn't being developed any more? And hasn't been for about five years? Duh?"
Ok I should have said it makes ASP.NET look like yesterdays turd. Apparently I am talking to a nitpicker here.
"Neither of those need bytecode support; both of those can be effectively implemented on.NET. "
Can be? How come they haven't yet then?
"Multiple dispatch has a number of issues; in particular, it has non-obvious semantics (specifically, there's no one way of resolving ambiguities that stands out as the "right thing" to do) and is considerably harder to implement efficiently."
Aah yes the typical MS FUD. If we don't support it it's beause it sucks and will give you cooties. I remember how MS went on endlessly about how inheritance was a bad idea and that's why VB didn't support it. They even got Grady Booch to write a paper saying containership was better then inheritance. Of course when VB.NET came out all was forgiven, inheritance was OK now. Same thing will happen with.NET. As soon as.NET supports it you will be singing a different tune. Typical MS FUDster behavior.
"In which case it's not really something to aim for, is it...."
Huh? Innovation is good. Right? Oh I get it, innovation is bad and that's why MS does not innovate!.
"It's obvious that you have no idea what proprietary software actually offers."
I have used every MS product intensely for the last decade or so. I probably more about SQL server, IIS and windows server then your average MCDBA. That's why I am able compare SQL server to Postgres. You simply state that SQL server has UDFs but it's obvious you have never actually used them or tried to use them in a replicated environment. You have no idea how crippled and limited they are. In comparison the postgres rules and functions are stellar.
"xen: sure. Microsoft has something similar. So does Novell and IBM."
They do? You don't even know what xen is do you?
"postgres: A great database. Show me the innovation over MS SQL, Oracle, DB2 or Sybase."
User definable operators, user definable aggregate functions, user loadable stored procedure languages, user definable types. That's just for starters.
"reiser3: Sun and IBM beat Hans by a mile and a few years."
Really? How do their file systems deal with metadata compared to reiser3?
"ruby on rails: Surely you jest."
Why no I don't jest. Makes ASP look like yesterdays turd.
"parrot: In perpetual alpha for what, 6 years? In the meantime Microsoft's.NET CLR has been out for five, and it actually works."
Even in it's alpha stage it has multiple dispatch and multiple inheritance. When will.NET have that?
"jboss: And Fleury innovates exactly where? By coming up with new and exciting containers that break across J2EE implementations?"
Yes, that's the definition of innovation.
"Well, that was fun."
Yes it was. It's always fun to see somebody who has no argument go into insult mode.
"Of course you don't. You're too busy seeing innovation where there is none."
It's obvious you have no idea what open source products are really like.
Dude when monad comes out windows will roxor. It will totally destroy all other operating systems. It will be a "better unix then unix"!. You better stop using linux NOW!. Windows will RULE when monad comes out.
Look at apache, it's impossible to write a GUI to configure apache. Nobody has ever done such a thing! that's because apache suxors, iis RULES because MS wrote a GUI for it.
"The "freedom to innovate" campaign was a media blitz launched by Microsoft to counter the negative press they were getting during the antitrust trial. Let's not stretch things that far, eh?"
You missed my point entirely. I can critize MS for not being innovative because they constantly scream about how innovative they are. You can't critize people for not being innovative if they never pretend to be.
"There is a lot of innovation. About as much, I'd say, as there is in Microsoft. "
I'd say that for every bit of MS innovation there is 10 times as much open source innovation.
"The most revolutionary thing I've seen coming out of the free software side in the past five years is Bitorrent."
Then you are not looking very hard. Go dig into xen, postgres, reiser3, zope, ruby on rails, parrot, jboss or dozens of other open source projects and then come back and talk to me.
"BTW, if you think Windows is Microsoft's only product, and therefore the only stick one can use to measure their innovation (or lack thereof) you are just plain ignorant."
I don't see much innovation going on anywhere at MS for any product. Is there some super secret MS product that's chuck full of innovation or something?
"Then again, if someone geeky enough to come to read Slashdot can't think of any landmark open source innovation,"
This is a meaningless statement. There are lots of people here on slashdot who do nothing but praise MS and bash open source. The grandparent is a perfect example. I myself can think of dozens of examples of innovation in open source. Sometimes innovation is quite visible like xen, reiser3, global file system, zope etc other times it's not like the loadable stored procedure languages of postgres.
There is plenty of innovation going on at open source, just because the grandparent is ignorant of them that does not mean they are not there.
I tell you what. Let's keep the attacks on MS original AFTER ms keeps it's attacks on open source original. So I say when Steve Ballmer of Bill Gates stops calling open source deveopers and users communists then we can think of something new to hit them with. As long as they attack open source using the same tactics they use today then no worries, keep on keeping on.
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Mmm interesting. So what you are saying is that linux developers should see into the future and make drivers for the hundreds of devices that will be made in the coming years and make sure those drivers are included in your distribution.
I don't know, that seems like a tall order and I don't think the part about seeing into the future is even possible.
I propose a compromise. What if they published a list of products known to work for sure. That way you can avoid buying devices you know are not supported.
What do you think?
WOW. I have never had any version of windows recognize any hardware on any optiplex. Not even the network card. I have always had to go and download the drivers from another machine and put them on a USB key so I can get the network going.
If what you say is true then it's quite a coup.
I think you are right. Most MS shops are outright hostile towards anything not made by MS and treat any mention of open source as an act of war. While you are not likely to be fired for using MS products in a linux shop you could very well be fired for using open source products in an MS shop. If not fired then for sure passed over for promotions and such.
If you are a geek who cares about open source and you work in a Ms shop then you should take a look at leaving. Everytime you open your mouth or one of your bosses or co-workers see you surfy with firefox you are handed a mental demerit.
Wow, critize israel and it's flamebait huh?
If anti zionism is anti semitism then zionism MUST be racism. I don't see how you get past that.
That's overly simplistic. The fact is that TODAY the state of Israel is acting in an uncivilized manner towards people it is occupying illegally. If any other country in the world tortured people, took over private property, built walls, killed thousands of innocents, destroyed houses of people whose only crime was to be related to a criminal then they would be invaded by the US and the leaders jailed.
Notice that I am in no way, shape or form defending what the palestenians do, I am simply pointing out that Israel acts as an uncivilized nation. As the grandparent said, imagine if Mexico formed armed and walled cities in texas by displacing texans from their homes and then lauchned missiles into Huston every time an American shot at a mexican occupying force.
It's wrapped in a GUI for every linux distribution I can think of. Is there a linux distribution you are thinking of that does not have gui for its package managmenet?
As for the rest I agree. It's insane to try and install softwar for windows. You have to go on the internet and try to find what you want. You have to down load it and most of the time unzip it. You have to install it by clicking on a half a dozen dialog boxes and agreeing to sacrifice your first borm to them and even then they spew files all over your filesystem.
Linux is so much easier. Distros like ubuntu, novell, fedora, xandros, linspire make it trivial to install software for linux. I wish windows was that easy.
Right, two things work one doesn't just like linux. Worse with my cars. The tires don't interchange, the engines don't swap, the transmissions don't swap, the seats are not interchangeable it goes on and on. In my car virtually 90% of the parts are not interchangable with another car.
Much worse then linux. Oddly enough people still keep buying cars. Go figure.
"There is no consolidated repository for source "packages," there is no way of externally mapping dependencies or handling them automatically. There is no hard-and-fast way of installing them that works for every source package, and above all, it's time consuming and potentially confusing for a first-time user. "
All that can be said about windows software too. It doesn't seem to have hurt them too much though.
"But look at any market (autos, consumer electronics) and you'll see that, eventually, controls and media and connectors and whatnot do consolidate and standardize, because people also tend to want things to work, and to work the way that they're used to."
I looked and I am not seeing the same thing you are. I was unable to plug the power cord from my portable CD palyer into my ipod. The headphones worked OK though. So some stuff worked some didn't, just like linux.
Not really. Or at least these things should never even get to a trial. Look at the SCO case. It's been dragging on for years now and SCO hasn't even shown one line of infringing code.
I hate to say this but it sounds like you are doing a piss poor job of educating your customers about what you are selling and what they are buying.
If you ask me you have left yourself open to litigation when one of your customers sues you for not "delivering" the web site to a potential customer or vendor.
The words "American Justice System" can no be safely bundled with "jumbo shrimp" and "military intelligence" as one of the all time oxymorons.
"What you say might be true if taxes were apportioned equally, but they're not."
You are absolutely right. The top 10% control more then 90% of the wealth and yet only pay around 60% of the taxes.
"It is the same thing. And it isn't "innovative". IBM have been doing it for years."
.NET doesn't support it and parrot does.
.NET MS shillboys and astroturfers like you will change your tune.
It's the same thing? Is that your position? that paravirtualization is the same thing as virtualization?
"No there isn't."
Well now there is a powerful and compelling argument if I ever saw one. I am kind of surprised you didn't say "is not!" or "is too!".
"But I don't have to use T-SQL to write sprocs in SQL Server. You do understand that, right?"
Really? You can? In triggers? Manipulating the recordsets as they are changed? I thought not. Sure you can use XP_CMDSHELL or similar thing but A) MS does not reccomend it, B) you run into security issues, and C) It's kind of crippled.
"They're not working "like a dog". They've put it on the back burner."
They have admitted that they can't do it on time. Perhaps they are not as smart as the apple employees.
"ASP and ASP.NET have next to nothing in common, and Ruby on Rails doesn't even begin to make ASP.NET look like "yesterdays turd"."
Oooh another great argument. DOES TOO!.
"Er... they have."
Did NOT!. Hey keep lying though, it only makes me look better.
"What the hell are you talking about? There is no single way to resolve multiple dispatch ambiguities; CLOS and Dylan, for example, both use different and incompatible schemes. Neither is clearly better than the other. And this is a big problem with multiple dispatch."
Did I say there was only one way to do it? I said
"Single dispatch has behaviour that's obviously and intuitively correct. Multiple dispatch doesn't. MI has issues of its own, but the solutions are better understood and (I believe) statically detectable."
When MS finally get around to implementing those on
"But, of course, you just spout typical ABM FUD. If MS doesn't do something it must be great."
I never said that. I simply said there is more innovation in the open source world then in MS. If MS doesn't do it it's because they are not innovative.
"and anyone who says otherwise is spewing FUD."
Nah. If you spread FUD you are spewing FUD. You are spewing FUD. Just another shill on slashdot. You guys are dime a dozen around here.
"Oooh, just like Windows has been doing since the NT 4 Option Pack. How exciting!"
Really? I just tried with w2k and it could find nothing. My Mac on the other hand can find text so tiny I can't even see it in my PDF files.
"As far as I can tell, high performance full-text search. i.e. searching data, not metadata."
You can't tell very far can you. Go look at how Apple stores and searches METADATA and the DATA (when it's accessable). When you save a PDF, JPG, MP3 or whatever OS-X extracts the metadata, stores it and indexes it. MS is trying desparately to implement the same thing. Time will tell if they succeed and to what degree. If it's like everything else they do it will be lame as hell.
"I don't know about Novell, but IBM have been doing virtualization similar to that of Xen for probably decades."
.NET. "
.NET. As soon as .NET supports it you will be singing a different tune. Typical MS FUDster behavior.
Xen is not virtualization technology. It's paravirtualization. Not the same thing and quite innovative.
"I don't know about user definable "operators" (though I must concede I can't really see the need), but UDTs and UDFs are commonplace, and the need for "user loadable stored procedure languages" seems to be largely obsoleted by such things as compiled stored procedures (e.g. "extended stored procedures" in MSSQL). So I'm not particularly overwhelmed by your list of features...."
There is a profound difference between a UDF (which even mysql has) and a user defined aggregate functions and operators. Just because you don't see the need for them that doesn't mean it's not innovative or useful. I myself have made use of them many times and they make the impossible possible. It's wonderful to make your own data types and write the operators to make comparisons and define functions like max and min for them. Just to give you one example you can then run a query like select point from points where point is fartest away from circle. Postgres allows you to code your stored procs in TCL, PL-SQL, PERL, Python and Java due it's flexable architecture. If you are happy with the lame T-SQL then more power to ya.
those just the surface of the innovations in postgres, I still haven't gone into the rule subsystem which is stunning or compiled stored procs in C or the dozens of other innovations in there. It's clear you are completely ignorant of the capabilities of postgres.
"This might be an interesting question if metadata mattered worth a damn."
Yes, that's why MS is working like a dog on winfs to try and copy of the features of reiser3.
"Well gee, ya think? You haven't noticed how ASP isn't being developed any more? And hasn't been for about five years? Duh?"
Ok I should have said it makes ASP.NET look like yesterdays turd. Apparently I am talking to a nitpicker here.
"Neither of those need bytecode support; both of those can be effectively implemented on
Can be? How come they haven't yet then?
"Multiple dispatch has a number of issues; in particular, it has non-obvious semantics (specifically, there's no one way of resolving ambiguities that stands out as the "right thing" to do) and is considerably harder to implement efficiently."
Aah yes the typical MS FUD. If we don't support it it's beause it sucks and will give you cooties. I remember how MS went on endlessly about how inheritance was a bad idea and that's why VB didn't support it. They even got Grady Booch to write a paper saying containership was better then inheritance. Of course when VB.NET came out all was forgiven, inheritance was OK now. Same thing will happen with
"In which case it's not really something to aim for, is it...."
Huh? Innovation is good. Right? Oh I get it, innovation is bad and that's why MS does not innovate!.
"It's obvious that you have no idea what proprietary software actually offers."
I have used every MS product intensely for the last decade or so. I probably more about SQL server, IIS and windows server then your average MCDBA. That's why I am able compare SQL server to Postgres. You simply state that SQL server has UDFs but it's obvious you have never actually used them or tried to use them in a replicated environment. You have no idea how crippled and limited they are. In comparison the postgres rules and functions are stellar.
"xen: sure. Microsoft has something similar. So does Novell and IBM."
.NET CLR has been out for five, and it actually works."
.NET have that?
They do? You don't even know what xen is do you?
"postgres: A great database. Show me the innovation over MS SQL, Oracle, DB2 or Sybase."
User definable operators, user definable aggregate functions, user loadable stored procedure languages, user definable types. That's just for starters.
"reiser3: Sun and IBM beat Hans by a mile and a few years."
Really? How do their file systems deal with metadata compared to reiser3?
"ruby on rails: Surely you jest."
Why no I don't jest. Makes ASP look like yesterdays turd.
"parrot: In perpetual alpha for what, 6 years? In the meantime Microsoft's
Even in it's alpha stage it has multiple dispatch and multiple inheritance. When will
"jboss: And Fleury innovates exactly where? By coming up with new and exciting containers that break across J2EE implementations?"
Yes, that's the definition of innovation.
"Well, that was fun."
Yes it was. It's always fun to see somebody who has no argument go into insult mode.
"Of course you don't. You're too busy seeing innovation where there is none."
It's obvious you have no idea what open source products are really like.
Dude when monad comes out windows will roxor. It will totally destroy all other operating systems. It will be a "better unix then unix"!. You better stop using linux NOW!. Windows will RULE when monad comes out.
Look at apache, it's impossible to write a GUI to configure apache. Nobody has ever done such a thing! that's because apache suxors, iis RULES because MS wrote a GUI for it.
A study in australia showed that a typical linux admin managed three times more machines then a typical windows admin.
I wish I still had the link but it was reported on zdnet australia web site.
"Ever use Groove? "
Yes, my boss tried to force his staff to use it for a while.
"Groove is close to revolutionary innovation in some respects,"
It's revolutionary in no respects except being a bloated pig of a resource hog and being dog slow.
"but it's still a mix of ideas ad concepts that have been developed and tried in other products."
Yes, it's a thick client version of a sourceforge like thing except not nearly as good.
"Then again Microsoft just bought Groove, so take that with a grain of salt."
Good, it deserved to die. Ms will give it a nice funeral I am sure.
"The "freedom to innovate" campaign was a media blitz launched by Microsoft to counter the negative press they were getting during the antitrust trial. Let's not stretch things that far, eh?"
You missed my point entirely. I can critize MS for not being innovative because they constantly scream about how innovative they are. You can't critize people for not being innovative if they never pretend to be.
"There is a lot of innovation. About as much, I'd say, as there is in Microsoft. "
I'd say that for every bit of MS innovation there is 10 times as much open source innovation.
"The most revolutionary thing I've seen coming out of the free software side in the past five years is Bitorrent."
Then you are not looking very hard. Go dig into xen, postgres, reiser3, zope, ruby on rails, parrot, jboss or dozens of other open source projects and then come back and talk to me.
"BTW, if you think Windows is Microsoft's only product, and therefore the only stick one can use to measure their innovation (or lack thereof) you are just plain ignorant."
I don't see much innovation going on anywhere at MS for any product. Is there some super secret MS product that's chuck full of innovation or something?
"Then again, if someone geeky enough to come to read Slashdot can't think of any landmark open source innovation,"
This is a meaningless statement. There are lots of people here on slashdot who do nothing but praise MS and bash open source. The grandparent is a perfect example. I myself can think of dozens of examples of innovation in open source. Sometimes innovation is quite visible like xen, reiser3, global file system, zope etc other times it's not like the loadable stored procedure languages of postgres.
There is plenty of innovation going on at open source, just because the grandparent is ignorant of them that does not mean they are not there.
I tell you what. Let's keep the attacks on MS original AFTER ms keeps it's attacks on open source original. So I say when Steve Ballmer of Bill Gates stops calling open source deveopers and users communists then we can think of something new to hit them with. As long as they attack open source using the same tactics they use today then no worries, keep on keeping on.