Apache configuration is based on blocks of data between tags. CRM114 is a great tool for dumping text between start and end tags and also for replacing those blocks.
"Meanwhile, our french friends are hostile to it. And they say OSS is a liberal thing."
Except that they are not hostile to it. As usual slashdot got the story wrong. I don't know if the introduction of facts will undo your pre-conceived notion of the french and liberals but what the hell I thought I would give it a shot.
Bullshit. I know exactly what the topic was about. You yourself bought the fact that there is a lot of anti Ms sentiment here and I was simply pointing out that there is a perfectly good reason for that. Now you want to pretend you never bought MS into it.
So to recap.
1) IE stagnated because it was closed source. SOmetimes it's in the interest of corporations to let their code rot (see netmanage and ecco for another example). If it was open source it would not have rotted like that.
2) MS sucks. They are slimy, unethical, sleazy corporation who does an amazing amount of vile things. They are a vile corporation run by vile men. They have also taken upom themselves to destroy the free software movement often resorting to the worst tactic imaginable like funding a bogus lawsuit against IBM by SCO and paying some right wing thinktank to say that linus stole the code for linux.
Both of these are well established facts. I am sorry the facts are so biased against you. Well not really sorry.
You know what somebody needs to so? Somebody needs to set up scripts for grepping the apache config files using CRM114. YOu could even use it make sed like for the pseudo xml file format.
That would be like entering a gun fight with a club. The opposing forces use a vast array of weaponry including FUD, shills, think tanks, paid off journalists, bogus studies, talk radio and fox news. If the scientists would just stick to science they would get killed (maybe even literally).
"There is a downright obsession on Slashdot to turn EVERY argument around on it's head to somehow shove Microsoft right in the middle of it. It annoys me so much. It's impossible to have an intelligent debate here without resorting to childish "Micro$suck" crap."
OF course not. Microsoft is the enemy of linux. They have said so. Their aim is the destruction of open source (GPL particularly). Most people here love linux and love the ideals of the open source and the free software movements. Why would we be thinking kindly thoughts about a company who is bribing politicians to enact draconian laws, paying journalists to write crappy FUD articles about linux, paying research companies to lie about linux and calling us communists and anti american? In a nutshell they do indeed suck and I have a perfect right to tell the world they they do.
If you think it's hard to have a intelligent debate here go to gotdotnet.com or the Ms forums and see what they are like. Well strike that gotdotnet will erase posts that are critical of MS and the Ms forums frewuently won't even let them hit the web.
I'll put it another way. How many times has an astro turfer or a shill has called linux users zealots and religious bigots because they state that their windows machines crash more often then their linux machines?
Why is it all cool for Microsoft to call their enemies zealots, communists, and other crap, why is it OK for them to curse and throw chairs around but it's not OK for me to say that my windows machine crashes a alot and that MS is a sleazy, unethical, mean, dangerous and allaround SUCKY corporation run by slimy people?
If you recall a while ago a ton of money exchanged hands between Sun and Microsoft. Since then Sun has attempted to undermine linux by quasi-open sourcing their stuff while being very careful not to make anything they open up be compatible with the GPL. By a strange and wonderful coinky dink the two companies more likely to get hurt by the sun moves are Novell and RedHat who at the time were the number one enemies of MS. Google has taken that spot now.
"No. I'm saying that Firefox is better because it had three years of continual development while IE was stagnant. For this reason, the comparison isn't fair (the fact that IE is so widely used is IRRELEVANT to our theoretical discussion on the merits of open source VS proprietary code)."
It's completely relevent. The fact that IE has been stagnant for years has everything to do with open source vs closed source development processes.
" I use.Mac and it's good for Mac users but it isn't any where close to being a replacement for Outlook/Exchange. Entourage does a decent job on the Mac for Exchange access."
In what way? You can share calenders, you have email, it syncs with your PDAs, you also get to be able share files. What is it missing? It actually has more features then exchange and costs less.
There is also groupwise, oracle groupware suite, lotus notes, open-exchange, kolab, citadel, bill workgroup server, and many more.
I don't get all this FUD about there being no exchange functionality on linux. It's all there and in many cases far superior to exhange and costs less (see oracle suite)
"First, is that they cannot control the desktop using policy. This is the biggest selling point of using Windows in a workgroup domain, and especially to manage as many servers and end users as they have. Active Directory, while not perfect, is awesome in its capabilities -- all stolen mostly from Novell's NDS:)"
This could be done with thin stations, knoppix like boot CDs or hell NDS. NDS runs on linux and as you said it is much better then AD.
"Next, is expertise. Why would you introduce something into an environment that nobody really knows how to use? Your executives aren't 100% sure but they know 100% that they need to hire staff that can take on Linux servers/desktops and supporting them. That means paying a premium for that labor, and it's not necessary when you can get Windows guys on the cheap."
You get what you pay for. Statistics show that a unix sysadmin administers more servers then a windows admin does. It is false economy to hire the cheapest labor you can find. Sure windows admin monkeys are dime a dozen and cheap to hire but that probably won't last long. When the MSCE find out they are getting paid much less then unix sysadmins they will most likely want to get trained in unix.
1) install ifolder on every desktop and instruct users to only save files in their ifolder so they can be backed up by the IT staff. The users know their windows desktop could be re-imaged at any time on the whim of the IT staff. Keep your documents in ifolder and you won't care. 2) Install open office and get rid of MS office. 3) Run groupwise (of course). 4) ban IE install firefox (no brainer on that one heh?).
After the users get used to the new software stack get rid of windows and install a linux image with the exact same software stack and you are done.
The trick is to migrate the software first. Of course this means dumping your vendors if they only support windows but then again if your vendors are making OS decisions for you then you are screwed anyway.
"In the end, they wanted everything to be Windows for some reason or another (misinformed about how Open Source works, you know, the whole deal)."
I have found this kind of zealotry very common int he companies I have worked at. Usually the CIO insists that only windows is a good operating system and that no other operating system is allowed to exist in the datacenter. The idea of the right tool for right job seems lost on these zealots. To me any company which makes OS decisions based on zealotry probably won't be around long anyway but in your case it was a school, you were right to get out when you could. I would much rather work for smart people then zealots.
The one sided vote is not that surprising given how much of a whore the govt is for the corporations. Not one person in the senate cares more about the health of the ecosystem or the world their grandchildren will inherit then where they get campaign funds from.
Wow, you are a genius!. I will never listen to scientists again. Those guys are idiots compared to you. I don't know how they missed this, I guess all those years of schooling and research are worthless. No wonder you got modded up. I will call you Mr genius from now on!
"Some people say that the real "global warming" problem has to do with increased energy output from the sun. Good luck stoping that one."
Some people say the universe is three thousand years old. Some people say people from Pleadies visit the eath in their beamships. Some people say ancient warriors speak through them.
Some people say a lot of weird things. I don't listen to them. I listen to people who have spent their entire lives studying and methodically researching something using strict scientific methods and extensive peer review. Those people are more likely to be right.
"Well, in that case, comparing Firefox with IE6 is like comparing the intelligence of a 30 year old to that of a 13 year old. "I'm way smarter than you because I've had more time to acquire knowledge!""
I don't get what you are saying here. Are you saying firefox is better because it's been around longer? IF so that's wrong. Firefox is mostly new code with very little left over form netscape.
As for other software it seems to be mix and match. Gimp is much better then photoshop in terms of scriptability but it falls behind in other areas. This is because scriptability is very important to a gimp users.
OO started way behind as anybody who ever used the original star office could attest but it's improving faster then ms office is. The question I have is this though. What does MS office do that open office doesn't? It seems to me the only thing it does is open MS office files better, that's it. I have been able to everything I have ever wanted with open office and more (save as PDF, save as flash, text art etc).
On the backend it's MS who is playing catchup. WIth every release SQL server adds features that have been around in postgres for years, visual studio still hasn't caught up to eclipse, IIS is pales in comparison to apache or zope, asp.net has just caught up to where j2ee was year and a half ago (wow we have embraced XML descriptors!)
So you see it's all about priorities. Open source software is more advanced then MS software in the aspects that are important to the open source developers. Once corporations start adopting open office on a larger scale they will pay for features they want by either sponsoring developers or paying bounties, same with all other software.
Slashdot Mirror
So just because a tiny percentage of the files can not replicenced under the GPL none of it can?
I will believe that when iraq joins opec.
Apache configuration is based on blocks of data between tags. CRM114 is a great tool for dumping text between start and end tags and also for replacing those blocks.
"Meanwhile, our french friends are hostile to it. And they say OSS is a liberal thing."
Except that they are not hostile to it. As usual slashdot got the story wrong. I don't know if the introduction of facts will undo your pre-conceived notion of the french and liberals but what the hell I thought I would give it a shot.
God knows you would not want to give the public access to culture.
Bullshit. I know exactly what the topic was about. You yourself bought the fact that there is a lot of anti Ms sentiment here and I was simply pointing out that there is a perfectly good reason for that. Now you want to pretend you never bought MS into it.
So to recap.
1) IE stagnated because it was closed source. SOmetimes it's in the interest of corporations to let their code rot (see netmanage and ecco for another example). If it was open source it would not have rotted like that.
2) MS sucks. They are slimy, unethical, sleazy corporation who does an amazing amount of vile things. They are a vile corporation run by vile men. They have also taken upom themselves to destroy the free software movement often resorting to the worst tactic imaginable like funding a bogus lawsuit against IBM by SCO and paying some right wing thinktank to say that linus stole the code for linux.
Both of these are well established facts. I am sorry the facts are so biased against you. Well not really sorry.
As any MS developer can tell you. Everything MS does is overly complicated. Without exception.
You know what somebody needs to so? Somebody needs to set up scripts for grepping the apache config files using CRM114. YOu could even use it make sed like for the pseudo xml file format.
Don't laugh. If you were a rich corporation willing to spread some of your money around to politicians you would be within your rights to do that.
The only reason YOU can't do it is because you are not rich. That's it.
"They should stick with the science."
That would be like entering a gun fight with a club. The opposing forces use a vast array of weaponry including FUD, shills, think tanks, paid off journalists, bogus studies, talk radio and fox news. If the scientists would just stick to science they would get killed (maybe even literally).
"There is a downright obsession on Slashdot to turn EVERY argument around on it's head to somehow shove Microsoft right in the middle of it. It annoys me so much. It's impossible to have an intelligent debate here without resorting to childish "Micro$suck" crap."
OF course not. Microsoft is the enemy of linux. They have said so. Their aim is the destruction of open source (GPL particularly). Most people here love linux and love the ideals of the open source and the free software movements. Why would we be thinking kindly thoughts about a company who is bribing politicians to enact draconian laws, paying journalists to write crappy FUD articles about linux, paying research companies to lie about linux and calling us communists and anti american? In a nutshell they do indeed suck and I have a perfect right to tell the world they they do.
If you think it's hard to have a intelligent debate here go to gotdotnet.com or the Ms forums and see what they are like. Well strike that gotdotnet will erase posts that are critical of MS and the Ms forums frewuently won't even let them hit the web.
I'll put it another way. How many times has an astro turfer or a shill has called linux users zealots and religious bigots because they state that their windows machines crash more often then their linux machines?
Why is it all cool for Microsoft to call their enemies zealots, communists, and other crap, why is it OK for them to curse and throw chairs around but it's not OK for me to say that my windows machine crashes a alot and that MS is a sleazy, unethical, mean, dangerous and allaround SUCKY corporation run by slimy people?
If that was true they would not have crafted their licence to exclude the GPL.
If you recall a while ago a ton of money exchanged hands between Sun and Microsoft. Since then Sun has attempted to undermine linux by quasi-open sourcing their stuff while being very careful not to make anything they open up be compatible with the GPL. By a strange and wonderful coinky dink the two companies more likely to get hurt by the sun moves are Novell and RedHat who at the time were the number one enemies of MS. Google has taken that spot now.
"If Sun were to GPL Java, they've have every Tom, Dick and Harry making an "improved platform independant language."
They have, it's called python, ruby, perl, lisp, haskell, ocaml etc.
Oh and parrot is shaping up nicely as the one VM to rule them all too.
"No. I'm saying that Firefox is better because it had three years of continual development while IE was stagnant. For this reason, the comparison isn't fair (the fact that IE is so widely used is IRRELEVANT to our theoretical discussion on the merits of open source VS proprietary code)."
It's completely relevent. The fact that IE has been stagnant for years has everything to do with open source vs closed source development processes.
" I use .Mac and it's good for Mac users but it isn't any where close to being a replacement for Outlook/Exchange. Entourage does a decent job on the Mac for Exchange access."
In what way? You can share calenders, you have email, it syncs with your PDAs, you also get to be able share files. What is it missing? It actually has more features then exchange and costs less.
OO opens up super fast for me because I pre-load it.
I haven't run into the other problems you mentioned.
It's called .MAC. You should look into it.
There is also groupwise, oracle groupware suite, lotus notes, open-exchange, kolab, citadel, bill workgroup server, and many more.
I don't get all this FUD about there being no exchange functionality on linux. It's all there and in many cases far superior to exhange and costs less (see oracle suite)
"First, is that they cannot control the desktop using policy. This is the biggest selling point of using Windows in a workgroup domain, and especially to manage as many servers and end users as they have. Active Directory, while not perfect, is awesome in its capabilities -- all stolen mostly from Novell's NDS :)"
This could be done with thin stations, knoppix like boot CDs or hell NDS. NDS runs on linux and as you said it is much better then AD.
"Next, is expertise. Why would you introduce something into an environment that nobody really knows how to use? Your executives aren't 100% sure but they know 100% that they need to hire staff that can take on Linux servers/desktops and supporting them. That means paying a premium for that labor, and it's not necessary when you can get Windows guys on the cheap."
You get what you pay for. Statistics show that a unix sysadmin administers more servers then a windows admin does. It is false economy to hire the cheapest labor you can find. Sure windows admin monkeys are dime a dozen and cheap to hire but that probably won't last long. When the MSCE find out they are getting paid much less then unix sysadmins they will most likely want to get trained in unix.
Here is how novell did it.
1) install ifolder on every desktop and instruct users to only save files in their ifolder so they can be backed up by the IT staff. The users know their windows desktop could be re-imaged at any time on the whim of the IT staff. Keep your documents in ifolder and you won't care.
2) Install open office and get rid of MS office.
3) Run groupwise (of course).
4) ban IE install firefox (no brainer on that one heh?).
After the users get used to the new software stack get rid of windows and install a linux image with the exact same software stack and you are done.
The trick is to migrate the software first. Of course this means dumping your vendors if they only support windows but then again if your vendors are making OS decisions for you then you are screwed anyway.
"In the end, they wanted everything to be Windows for some reason or another (misinformed about how Open Source works, you know, the whole deal)."
I have found this kind of zealotry very common int he companies I have worked at. Usually the CIO insists that only windows is a good operating system and that no other operating system is allowed to exist in the datacenter. The idea of the right tool for right job seems lost on these zealots. To me any company which makes OS decisions based on zealotry probably won't be around long anyway but in your case it was a school, you were right to get out when you could. I would much rather work for smart people then zealots.
On the other hand melting ice will have an effect on the salinity of the ocean which changes the density of the water too.
Who know what kind of an effect that will have.
The one sided vote is not that surprising given how much of a whore the govt is for the corporations. Not one person in the senate cares more about the health of the ecosystem or the world their grandchildren will inherit then where they get campaign funds from.
Wow, you are a genius!. I will never listen to scientists again. Those guys are idiots compared to you. I don't know how they missed this, I guess all those years of schooling and research are worthless. No wonder you got modded up. I will call you Mr genius from now on!
"Some people say that the real "global warming" problem has to do with increased energy output from the sun. Good luck stoping that one."
Some people say the universe is three thousand years old. Some people say people from Pleadies visit the eath in their beamships. Some people say ancient warriors speak through them.
Some people say a lot of weird things. I don't listen to them. I listen to people who have spent their entire lives studying and methodically researching something using strict scientific methods and extensive peer review. Those people are more likely to be right.
"Well, in that case, comparing Firefox with IE6 is like comparing the intelligence of a 30 year old to that of a 13 year old. "I'm way smarter than you because I've had more time to acquire knowledge!""
I don't get what you are saying here. Are you saying firefox is better because it's been around longer? IF so that's wrong. Firefox is mostly new code with very little left over form netscape.
As for other software it seems to be mix and match. Gimp is much better then photoshop in terms of scriptability but it falls behind in other areas. This is because scriptability is very important to a gimp users.
OO started way behind as anybody who ever used the original star office could attest but it's improving faster then ms office is. The question I have is this though. What does MS office do that open office doesn't? It seems to me the only thing it does is open MS office files better, that's it. I have been able to everything I have ever wanted with open office and more (save as PDF, save as flash, text art etc).
On the backend it's MS who is playing catchup. WIth every release SQL server adds features that have been around in postgres for years, visual studio still hasn't caught up to eclipse, IIS is pales in comparison to apache or zope, asp.net has just caught up to where j2ee was year and a half ago (wow we have embraced XML descriptors!)
So you see it's all about priorities. Open source software is more advanced then MS software in the aspects that are important to the open source developers. Once corporations start adopting open office on a larger scale they will pay for features they want by either sponsoring developers or paying bounties, same with all other software.