That incident was directly related to very poor choices made by that CO that were contrary to training and procedure. Unless this investigations some how turns up that the CO encouraged or forced an environment where standard safety practices were compromised, there is no reason for him to be punished.
Yes, you are once again perfectly right. It is a terrible thing to have happened.
That said, there are systems and procedures in place and they work damn well. These are extremely dangerous environments and the civilians and submariners that work on them face risks like this every day.
Bottom line..shit happens. We will have training, we will review procedures, and there will be a massive critique. That said, when it comes down to it...shit happens.
You can never make anything perfect. To be so full of anger over one major accident when the group it is part of (US nuclear submarines) has an unrivaled safety record next to the huge dangers they operate with.
br.
People get angry at the idea of a nuclear power plant in their state yet the US Submarine forces regularly runs dozens of reactors within miles of elementary schools because we have earned that level of trust due to our diligence and safety records.
I just went through a thirty month ERO on an SSBN; I'm not speaking without experience. We maintained a third of the crew on board or, during the most extensive work(which the Miami had not yet reached) on a barge a hundred yards away to maintain watches and do work. Granted, SSBN/SSN have some differences, but overall we follow the same guidance.
Anyway, my original point was to correct the claim that the ship was probably unmanned.
You misunderstood what the other submariner said. No class of US submarines has an automatic fire suppression system. It is up to the crew to fight fires.
They shouldn't burn so bad that they are scraped, but that does not mean the proper precautions weren't in place or that your suggestions aren't ridiculous.
In drydock there are many cuts in the hull and equipment added or removed that makes obtaining an air tight seal impossible. Not to mention that, as was mentioned many times by other people, simply cutting off the air is not sufficient. These are not WW2 boats - these things are massive with more air than you give them credit for. All of this ignores the risk of simply allowing a fire to burn on in the presence of a nuclear reactor.
You're reasoning is mostly accurate, but fire hoses with seawater are the primary method of fighting a fire with portable extinguishers acting as a first response tool. The amount of water required to cause one of these to sink is absolutely massive - you would not reach that level with firefighting efforts. The bigger problem is that, as you stated, these are very dense ships with many combustible materials. It can be extremely difficult to get to fires in the outboards burning the hull insulation.
Anytime damage control equipment is degradation, temporary systems are on board. There are always watches on board to make sure that things like this don't happen. Many, many precautions are in place, but, when it comes down to it, submarines are quite flammable and it only takes one oily rag or mass of dust and lint to cause a fire like this. We live every day knowing that this is the risk.
Sorry, but you are terrible misinformed about submarine design.
They are not just metal with some insulation for wiring. Their are chairs, beds, rags, oil (so much oil), personal items, trash, dryer lint, and dust (bigger source of fire than you might think). That is just for a functioning submarine. A ship in refit like this has holes cut it it, fresh paint all over, tape everywhere, and a million other small combustible things.
A trash can fire can fill a compartment with smoke in a matter of minutes when there is no outside ventilation.
And, no, there should not be an automatic fire suppression system. Sprinklers would go off indiscriminately and damage expensive equipment. This is unacceptable because even if there IS a fire a boomer has to stay on get back on alert covering its package and the fast boat on mission has to continue to be in top secret places without anyone knowing.
Halon is impractical and wouldn't be used even if it was. These are not small rooms that are easily sealed off. There are two separate spaces on this class - you would have to fill half of the sub up with gas and then you wouldn't have any way to remove it because you are under the water. Even if there is a fire, people stay in the compartment. It does not matter if a fire is raging in the torpedo room - I will still be sitting in control sweating breathing through an EAB because we need to be able to track contacts and other such things at all times.
I wish the best to my shipmates on the Miami. Fire is our greatest fear and the few scares I've been through have always brought out the best the crew has to offer. I have no doubt that every one responded courageously befitting the dolphins on their chests.
Every ship is manned until it is decommissioned. One third of the crew is on board at all times to stand security watches and maintain the ship. For various reasons listed in other comments, just shutting the hatches was unacceptable - even if you had been able to stop the fire that way, the risk of reflash and the damage would be unacceptable.
Submariners do not run from fires.
Slashdot was my first homepage ten years ago. I was in middle school.
So it is terribly depressing that I am being forced away by the site's shift away from functionality. Sure, on my primary monitor the extra gaps in text is merely obnoxious, the white oceans on the right and left of the content is baffling, and the floating toolbar is just confusing, but on my netbook they manage to cut my vertical viewing space down to a dozen lines of text and the content only takes up a third of the horizontal space due to the wastefulness!
I will wait a few days. Enough people here have decent web design sense, so someone can write a more passionate, more compelling argument against the mistakes in this design. I can only hope that their words make it through to the persons who have made this poor decision, because if they do not, I have to regrettable task of finding a useful homepage and somewhere that delivers the kind of news that I care about.
Other than the already stated fact that all that shit makes illegal marijuana seem like a waste of time, maybe it is a sign that *surprise* people care more about their own lives. You could say something negative about that, but screw it, I agree. Maybe if we stopped wasting time and money around the world, we could get issues taken care of at home.
Slashdot Mirror
That incident was directly related to very poor choices made by that CO that were contrary to training and procedure. Unless this investigations some how turns up that the CO encouraged or forced an environment where standard safety practices were compromised, there is no reason for him to be punished.
Yes, you are once again perfectly right. It is a terrible thing to have happened.
That said, there are systems and procedures in place and they work damn well. These are extremely dangerous environments and the civilians and submariners that work on them face risks like this every day.
Bottom line..shit happens. We will have training, we will review procedures, and there will be a massive critique. That said, when it comes down to it...shit happens.
You can never make anything perfect. To be so full of anger over one major accident when the group it is part of (US nuclear submarines) has an unrivaled safety record next to the huge dangers they operate with.
br. People get angry at the idea of a nuclear power plant in their state yet the US Submarine forces regularly runs dozens of reactors within miles of elementary schools because we have earned that level of trust due to our diligence and safety records.
Yes, it burns and produces toxic gas. Do you propose we insulate the hull and piping with aluminum?
This is not a surface ship; the submarine has two compartments. There is no way to flood one specific area with halon.
If you really need to have a list of the numerous flammable things that could be on board a ship during a refit period, then my original point stands.
If you are expecting someone to know what the first fuel of a fire which has an undetermined cause, I would return the question about literacy to you.
I just went through a thirty month ERO on an SSBN; I'm not speaking without experience. We maintained a third of the crew on board or, during the most extensive work(which the Miami had not yet reached) on a barge a hundred yards away to maintain watches and do work. Granted, SSBN/SSN have some differences, but overall we follow the same guidance. Anyway, my original point was to correct the claim that the ship was probably unmanned.
You misunderstood what the other submariner said. No class of US submarines has an automatic fire suppression system. It is up to the crew to fight fires.
Thank you for raising that point. The battery alone is a huge fire risk. These are not pure metal ships.
They shouldn't burn so bad that they are scraped, but that does not mean the proper precautions weren't in place or that your suggestions aren't ridiculous.
In drydock there are many cuts in the hull and equipment added or removed that makes obtaining an air tight seal impossible. Not to mention that, as was mentioned many times by other people, simply cutting off the air is not sufficient. These are not WW2 boats - these things are massive with more air than you give them credit for. All of this ignores the risk of simply allowing a fire to burn on in the presence of a nuclear reactor.
You're reasoning is mostly accurate, but fire hoses with seawater are the primary method of fighting a fire with portable extinguishers acting as a first response tool. The amount of water required to cause one of these to sink is absolutely massive - you would not reach that level with firefighting efforts. The bigger problem is that, as you stated, these are very dense ships with many combustible materials. It can be extremely difficult to get to fires in the outboards burning the hull insulation.
Anytime damage control equipment is degradation, temporary systems are on board. There are always watches on board to make sure that things like this don't happen. Many, many precautions are in place, but, when it comes down to it, submarines are quite flammable and it only takes one oily rag or mass of dust and lint to cause a fire like this. We live every day knowing that this is the risk.
You are right on many points, but there were no torpedoes on board during this period. They are removed for exactly the reasons you listed.
Sorry, but you are terrible misinformed about submarine design. They are not just metal with some insulation for wiring. Their are chairs, beds, rags, oil (so much oil), personal items, trash, dryer lint, and dust (bigger source of fire than you might think). That is just for a functioning submarine. A ship in refit like this has holes cut it it, fresh paint all over, tape everywhere, and a million other small combustible things. A trash can fire can fill a compartment with smoke in a matter of minutes when there is no outside ventilation. And, no, there should not be an automatic fire suppression system. Sprinklers would go off indiscriminately and damage expensive equipment. This is unacceptable because even if there IS a fire a boomer has to stay on get back on alert covering its package and the fast boat on mission has to continue to be in top secret places without anyone knowing. Halon is impractical and wouldn't be used even if it was. These are not small rooms that are easily sealed off. There are two separate spaces on this class - you would have to fill half of the sub up with gas and then you wouldn't have any way to remove it because you are under the water. Even if there is a fire, people stay in the compartment. It does not matter if a fire is raging in the torpedo room - I will still be sitting in control sweating breathing through an EAB because we need to be able to track contacts and other such things at all times.
I wish the best to my shipmates on the Miami. Fire is our greatest fear and the few scares I've been through have always brought out the best the crew has to offer. I have no doubt that every one responded courageously befitting the dolphins on their chests.
The US does not us titanium for its submarines.
Every ship is manned until it is decommissioned. One third of the crew is on board at all times to stand security watches and maintain the ship. For various reasons listed in other comments, just shutting the hatches was unacceptable - even if you had been able to stop the fire that way, the risk of reflash and the damage would be unacceptable. Submariners do not run from fires.
Could we at least pretend we aren't putting ads up as stories?
Because it doesn't let him steal games as easily.
I am ashamed to serve on a boat named after this state.
Slashdot was my first homepage ten years ago. I was in middle school. So it is terribly depressing that I am being forced away by the site's shift away from functionality. Sure, on my primary monitor the extra gaps in text is merely obnoxious, the white oceans on the right and left of the content is baffling, and the floating toolbar is just confusing, but on my netbook they manage to cut my vertical viewing space down to a dozen lines of text and the content only takes up a third of the horizontal space due to the wastefulness! I will wait a few days. Enough people here have decent web design sense, so someone can write a more passionate, more compelling argument against the mistakes in this design. I can only hope that their words make it through to the persons who have made this poor decision, because if they do not, I have to regrettable task of finding a useful homepage and somewhere that delivers the kind of news that I care about.
Dude, no one will ever play with me!
Better than a console, obviously.
Other than the already stated fact that all that shit makes illegal marijuana seem like a waste of time, maybe it is a sign that *surprise* people care more about their own lives. You could say something negative about that, but screw it, I agree. Maybe if we stopped wasting time and money around the world, we could get issues taken care of at home.
Everyone who buys a DS is playing a game.
Very few people who buy iphones and the like do so for games.
They don't have shit to worry about.
There is a difference?