Apple Racks Up the Gaming Patents

An anonymous reader writes "Evidence has been growing that Apple is developing a new gaming console. Now, there are some possible details about how a combined media/game console might work, based on patent applications filed by Apple in late 2007 and early 2008. Here is some of what we can look for: having your personal music integrated into a title, a 'natural' gesture multitouch interface, and a single online store that sells games, media, and video."

Comments

iHateSoftwarePatents

[Anonymous Coward]

Nuff said.

Re:iHateSoftwarePatents

[Anonymous Coward]

First of all USian isn't a word. You are already a fucking retard for using that phrase. I guess you think it's cool to take random shots at Americans because you think it might get you laid. But it won't do shit for you on here buddy. Second thing, what have YOU invented lately since we're on the topic of who invented what? Dumb shit.

Cause someone will bring this up:

[denttford]

Apple's other attempt to enter the gaming market.

As much as I dislike their products, if Apple goes after the Wii with stong iTunes and iPhone/Pod integration, as a gaming and convergence device, they could hurt Nintendo. The saturated market isn't an issue when you can lower the standard of definition and quadruple the market space (e.g. the "smartphone" market).
They will probably have to kill Apple TV, though.

Re:Cause someone will bring this up:

[dingen]

They will probably have to kill Apple TV, though.

I could be wrong here, but I'm under the impression that the Apple TV isn't doing too well anyway.

Re:Cause someone will bring this up:

[Penguinoflight]

Somehow I don't think killing the Apple TV will be too hard, or even painful.

Re:Cause someone will bring this up:

[pete-wilko]

It's one thing to be entering the gaming market, and music integration is great. But there's already great games out there like audiosurf which are great fun and do stuff like that.

Apple entering is goodish news as long as they dont start throwing those patents around and screwing the games market for everyone. It would be so crap if indie developers get crushed in the process.

n.b. also amused by the infinite loop of the article linking to a slashdot story...

Re:Cause someone will bring this up:

[denttford]

No, it does better than expected as a niche product. Still, I suspect a PVR+iTunes frontend+Gaming platform with strong iPod tie ins and in HD would sell very well. It would be a major initiative, and I doubt Apple would let a "hobby project" dilute that market.

Re:Cause someone will bring this up:

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem with Apple entering that market: price. One of Nintendo's biggest selling points is their price. If Apple continues with their buy-in-club pricing mentality (and we have no reason to believe that they won't), then I highly doubt Nintendo has much to worry about.

Re:Cause someone will bring this up:

[Anonymous Coward]

My biggest problem with Nintendo was their resistance to provide the market with sufficient consoles to meet demand. More than once I wanted to buy one on a lark and couldn't. While Apple does not have the best track record for maintaining supply when they have a hot product, Apple has "hip" appeal that Nintendo will never have, resulting in people willing to wait for Apple's supply to meet demand.

Re:Cause someone will bring this up:

[Maury Markowitz]

> They will probably have to kill Apple TV, though.

As an owner ($200 refurb, what the hell) I have to say I'd be fine if they killed it. I'd be happier if they just fixed it though, and it really doesn't need much work.

All it needs is an external DVD player, like the one from the Air, and an external tuner (w/CableCard). Plug them in via the USB2, pass through the video, and suddenly it becomes one bazillion times more useful. I get one little stack, plug it into my TV/monitor on one end and tuner on the other, and everything's done.

Yeah I know, I have broadband, I don't need a DVD - sure, but tell that to my kid. And no matter how fast that broadband gets, there's times when I want to watch Greatest American Hero RIGHT NOW, but then there's times I just want to channel surf. iTunes is great for the former, but will never, ever, be the later. None of the online services are, yet.

Now fix the frigged menus.

Maury

Re:Cause someone will bring this up:

[NatasRevol]

Well, since iPhone sales(4M) are running at about 1/3 of DS sales(12M), I'd say they have a lot to worry about.

http://vgsales.wikia.com/wiki/Nintendo_DS

iPod Touch sales add a bit more - the other 2/3 of DS sales

~40M iGamingPlatforms.

http://www.macnn.com/articles/09/04/22/apple.ipod.sales/

Re:Cause someone will bring this up:

[michael021689]

Everyone who buys a DS is playing a game.

Very few people who buy iphones and the like do so for games.

They don't have shit to worry about.

Re:Cause someone will bring this up:

[Xaoswolf]

That's the handheld market however. The DS is pretty much the only handheld(does the PSP still count?) And the iphone is also a cell phone, so the comparision isn't as good.

The console market has plenty of other consoles to choose from. People looking for a cheap system that is fun will go with the Wii still, hardcore gamers will go for the consoles that have the games on them and a proven track record. Mac cultists will buy anything with an apple on it however. If they release a console, I think it will take some time before it becomes really popular.

Re:Cause someone will bring this up:

[Moryath]

One of the most underutilized - but most fun - options on the original Xbox was the ability of certain games (especially the Tony Hawk series) to replace the default "in-game" music with music ripped from CD's. Make a custom CD with your own chosen playlist, drop it on the box, and boom, you had a completely different experience. I couldn't stand half of the crap-rap they put in, for instance, but I could tell it "never play" those songs, and add in, say, a bunch of Frank Sinatra to the list, or pretty much anything else I decided to put in.

I wish more games had that option. It's one thing if you have a cutscene with dedicated music or something, but something else for sports games or games that wind up trying to have a "top 40s" playlist stuck in as an afterthought. I know I, personally, get bored with games quicker if I don't like the music that's being blared.

Re:Cause someone will bring this up:

[Sj0]

You guys are about to learn what I learned 10 years ago: Discrete devices work best. A dedicated gaming platform will have better performance, better form factor, and better battery life than a device that's a million things and also a gaming platform. A dedicated music device will have better form factor and better battery life than a device that's a million things and also a music device. A dedicated phone will have better form factor and better battery life than something that's a million things and a phone.

And you know what? When my DS is dead, I'll still be able to call a taxi, and I'll still have 11 hours of music left on my iPod.

Re:Cause someone will bring this up:

[jolson74]

Actually... one thing really cool about the Xbox 360 is that if you are playing your own music (either from the hard disk, from a PC via Media Center, or from an MP3 player connected via USB) it will override the soundtrack of whatever game you are playing. But you still get all of the other game sounds (voices, sound effects, etc.).

Without that feature, I think 'Burnout: Paradise' would have driven me insane.

Re:Cause someone will bring this up:

[Xaoswolf]

Agreed. However, in a console, media integration is now a plus. People like being able to listen to their own music while playing a game. Dorm room gamers may not have the money or space to throw in a second DVD player. Some integration is bound to take place as things progress. I'll agree that trying to add more features that make you console just an underpowered computer is kinda nuts, and I'll never carry around just one thing for gaming and phone use as that's just stupid.

Re:Cause someone will bring this up:

[Cillian]

Playing gears of war 2 with a friend while listening to abba and other cheesy music was rather amazing and one of the most fun experiences I've had gaming.

Re:Cause someone will bring this up:

[Anonymous Coward]

First of all, didn't Apple try this once already to disastrous applause? Remember the Pippin?

Is this another sign that sooner rather than later they are going to leave the computer market?

Re:Cause someone will bring this up:

[HasselhoffThePaladin]

Is this the latest in trolling? It's the 2nd time I've seen it today.

Re:Cause someone will bring this up:

[Lemmy Caution]

Well, I'm skeptical too, and I remember the Pippin. But I also remember the Newton, and every time I see an iPhone or iPod Touch, I think of the Newton. Apple seems to be able to go back to the drawing board and turn a failure into a success in the next generation or two.

That said, I think that they would be entering a rather full market. Who would they displace?

Re:Cause someone will bring this up:

[Anonymous Coward]

My biggest problem with Nintendo was their resistance to provide the market with sufficient consoles to meet demand.

It's fair to criticize Nintendo's supply because they've been known to create "shortages" to drum up hype, press and popularity in the past. However, I'm assuming you're talking about the Wii. (given the Gamecube was not that hard to get, nor has been the DS) And like it or not, Nintendo wasn't hold back supply on this one. It was simply sending the majority of it to countries that had a better currency and higher margins per sale, meaning more money for Nintendo. The US suffered from supply because the devaluation of the dollar. It was stated this several times along with every article discussion the increase supply Nintendo kept pushing out every quarter. Given one cannot just magically make 1 million more units, your assumptions are wrong.

Apple has "hip" appeal that Nintendo will never have, resulting in people willing to wait for Apple's supply to meet demand.

Spoken like a true Apple fanboi and not a Nintendo fanboi. I guess all those stories about people getting injured over waiting in line for days over a Wii must be made up?

Re:Cause someone will bring this up:

[Lemmy Caution]

I hear you. But I don't like walking around looking like I'm wearing jodhpurs, either. A little convergence goes a long way: putting an mp3 player into my phone (a G1) - or rather, putting an acceptable interface around my phone's ability to play mp3s, is one less device I have to carry around. Add Bluetooth stereo headphones, that's one less wire.

Re:Cause someone will bring this up:

[donweel]

You might have it backwards, what if they upgrade the Apple Tv into a game console / multimedia box.

Re:Cause someone will bring this up:

[NatasRevol]

Yeah, you're right.

http://www.apple.com/itunes/billion-app-countdown/

Only 15 out of the top 20 apps are games.

My bad.

Re:Cause someone will bring this up:

[Patch86]

I think you're right. I'm not usually tempted by Apple products, but I would actually get excited by this.

The reason I'm not a fan of their PCs/laptops is that I don't like the concept of proprietary sealed-unit computers. The reason that I don't like their handheld devices is that I feel a lot of the features (casual gaming, novelty apps, gigantic data storage) would be wasted on me. The reason I don't like all Apple products is that they're usually overpriced.

But that's all different for consoles. The proprietary sealed unit design is well accepted in consoles (and has always been), and is actually a big plus for game developers not having to worry about varying hardware. With the shift towards consoles being an all-purpose set-top device, things like the app-store and iTunes become a gold mine for any multimedia TV. And unless they pull a Sony and price the ting right out of the market, most people would be happy to pay anything for a good console.

And that's before we even get started on things like Mac/iPod/iPhone integration, or porting some of their OSX applications across...

Re:Cause someone will bring this up:

[pcolaman]

More likely that Apple discovers how dominant that Nintendo is in this market. Just because Apple is the gleam in every fanboy's eyes and just because iTunes is the most successful music distribution system doesn't mean they are going to hold a candle to Nintendo when it comes to a game system with an online distribution system for games. Nintendo's been doing it a lot longer and is making a profit while doing so. This gaming device, if handheld, would have to battle the DS for supremecy in this market. And while the iPod is dominant in music and video players, the DS is king supreme in portable gaming systems.

Re:Cause someone will bring this up:

[FishWithAHammer]

Some folks do this in, say, TF2. Playing as the Heavy while listening to a Russian march is strangely appropriate. Also awesome.

(Or "Barbie Girl" at twice normal speed while playing Scout. My friends have odd ideas of what is "good.")

Re:Cause someone will bring this up:

[Anonymous Coward]

Once I was playing Quake 2, but the CD in the drive was "Rocket Jockey", so I was then playing quake 2 to Dick Dale music, it was awesome (even though I really like the quake music too)

Re:Cause someone will bring this up:

[denttford]

You aren't wrong. Thing is, it's more an issue of what sells best. or more accurately, what most people think works best for them. I remember how Palm was extolled for not trying to do much more than be a PDA; "who needs a computer that small," was a common objection. But the truth is, people will always want to do more if it's set out in an easy fashion for them. A decade later, PalmOS - in code base and system design philosophy - is dead, and for all its flaws, Windows CE is still around.

Additionally, people simply want to carry fewer devices.*

Geeks can embrace the UNIX philosophy and wear cargo pants with a pocket for each best in class device. That, however, is not the way to market dominance.

*It's also easier for the 24-35 young professional market to carry a cellphone with a 3D accelerator than it is to deal with the stigma of commuting with a PSP. In and of itself, that is market with disposable income, a degree of technical savvy, and preexisting justification for highspeed and powerful mobile data devices.

Re:Cause someone will bring this up:

[Anonymous Coward]

and you will be carrying around a backpack full of gadgets.

I prefer my old iPod to my iPhone as a music player. The music player on the iPhone is not nearly as usable, the drive is too small, and the touchscreen isn't nearly as useful for navigating a vast music library as the click wheel.

But you know what? I've stopped using my old iPod because it's just too darn convenient to have everything in one device. And there are benefits to integration as well - when my phone rings, the music fades out automatically. If I get board with my music collection, I have Pandora, Last.FM or the iTunes store.

Convergence is bad when it is about packing in as many features as possible without regard for usability. Or when the device combines 5 functions and gets all 5 wrong. But multi-taskers are convenient and sometimes able to do things that uni-taskers cannot. People are willing to make trade-offs when they make sense.

Re:Cause someone will bring this up:

[Threni]

> they could hurt Nintendo.

Perhaps. Remember, though, that the first, ridiculous incarnation of the iPhone didn't even have 3G which is a laughable omission for a supposedly hi-tech company, attempting to compete in mature markets like the EU, Japan etc where 3G had been on most data-aware phones for years.

Also, a risk for Apple is that people will skip the first console Apple ship waiting for the one which will surely follow in 2 months (and then in 2 monthly intervals) in increasingly sickening shades of light blue and pink and never get around to buying one.

Re:Cause someone will bring this up:

[Moryath]

Yeah, PC titles that had CD-audio tracks in the old days were awesome that way (even if you had to get the occasional no-cd crack to make it work).

Interstate '82 with an early '80s Metallica disc, for instance, or some random hair metal...

Re:Cause someone will bring this up:

[Shadow of Eternity]

German version of barbie girl.

Nothing so far topped the amount of pure epic I felt when I had winamp blast me with Dawn of Victory while playing a well made custom omaha beach map in a full BF1942 server though.

Re:Cause someone will bring this up:

[Anonymous Coward]

Way to totally miss the GP's point. Just because people buy games for the iPhone, does not mean that playing games was their primary reason for buying it. Given that it is a multipurpose device, I bet there are many different reasons why people buy it, and the fact that there happen to be games on it is a nice bonus (similar to other cell phones that have games). You are also forgetting that the iPhone does what most people want it to do (except apparently play games) out of the box without having to buy excess functionality. I mean, what apps are out there that the vast majority of iPhone users would actually want to shell out money for that aren't games? The DS is almost exclusively a gaming machine. Most people buy it for the primary reason to play games. Sales comparisons are currently meaningless as they are two markets with little overlap.

Re:Cause someone will bring this up:

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, since iPhone sales(4M) are running at about 1/3 of DS sales(12M), I'd say they have a lot to worry about.

According to that, the DS has sold over 96 million units. The PSP has sold 50 million. iPhone is at 17.4 million - they are behind by an enormous amount.

Re:Cause someone will bring this up:

[bluefoxlucid]

The DS sold 12 million units in its first week of release. >_>;

Re:Cause someone will bring this up:

[bluefoxlucid]

They'd probably displace Sony. They have the worst performing console; Nintendo has the best. They'll be competing for sales from Nintendo, Sony, and Microsoft; some people buy everything, but some will make a decision and follow a trade-off. Given that more Wiis get bought than anything else, it's most unlikely that such a trade-off will cut a Wii (rather, they will give up the Apple shiny thing in favor of the Wii, or have 2 consoles and give up the non-Wii console). Given that fewer Playstation 3s get bought than anything, PS3 has the lowest appeal and is thus most likely to be rejected by the market in favor of a new shiny Apple device.

The only other two options are that the Apple thingy crushes everything wholesale; or the Apple thingy utterly fails in the market. Otherwise it'll displace the worse performing competition first and the best performing competition last. And mind you, if it completely crushes everything else, multi-console homes will likely push out the worst performers-- PS3 first, then XBox360, then Wii-- when it comes to making a buying decision.

Re:Cause someone will bring this up:

[NatasRevol]

Why does is matter what the primary reason for purchase is?

You buy DS+games, you buy iPhone+games. The iPhone does some other things. How is this 'little' overlap?

These two items are very comparable.

And back to the original point - Nintendo should be very scared.

Re:Cause someone will bring this up:

[NatasRevol]

The iPhone + iPod Touch - which are effectively the same platform for games - have roughly 50 million total units sold as well.

Which makes my point: Nintendo should be very scared of a significant, and increasing, competitor.

Re:Cause someone will bring this up:

[Anonymous Coward]

External DVD would be nice, but why don't you just use Handbrake and rip those DVD? Time consuming yes but my kids have all their movies at their fingertips and I never have DVD's strung out over my living room. I bet the apple TV is probably one of the most used components in our house....followed very close by the X-Box for the same reason upstairs--Hannah Montana in one room Hulk in the other with no DVD player on.

Re:Cause someone will bring this up:

[Anonymous Coward]

It matters because the primary purpose is what gets marketed and what will ultimately determine the primary market for a product. What percentage of people who buy an iPhone are buying games vs those who buy a DS? I'd bet that the percentage of people who buy an iPhone and then games is a lot lower than those who buy a DS and then games. An analogy would be comparing PCs to video game consoles: a multipurpose device vs (until recently) a single purpose device. Do you really think that the console makers are quaking in their boots about PCs? After all, a good chunk of software that are bought for PCs are games. Not everyone who buys a PC buys games, not everyone who buys an iPhone buys games. Until Apple markets a primary purpose gaming device, I don't think Nintendo has anything to worry about from them.

Re:Cause someone will bring this up:

[NatasRevol]

Then you're an idiot.

If people are buying HALF A BILLION GAMES for 40M iPhones/iTouches, Nintendo damn well better worry.

Especially since Apple is making a lot more money selling the handehld+games. It doesn't matter what the primary purpose of the device is. All that matters is if it's making lots of money & taking customers away from others.

Re:Cause someone will bring this up:

[Cornflake917]

That doesn't mean shit about WHY people are buying the iPhone. Just because games are popular apps, doesn't mean that people are buying the iPhone for the sole reason to play those games.

Re:Cause someone will bring this up:

[intheshelter]

"I'd bet that the percentage of people who buy an iPhone and then games is a lot lower than those who buy a DS and then games. "

- I'd bet the percentages are the same, 100%. Everyone I know who has an iPhone has games on it. Not only that, the games are free or AFFORDABLE. While not everyone who buys an iPhone buys games I'd bet the number 90%+, and considering how many iPhones are out there and how that number is climbing I don't see how Apple can't surpass the DS easily.

Re:Cause someone will bring this up:

[SoupGuru]

Civ IV has a great mp3 player integrated. I used to run winamp in the background while spent hours playing Civ II and it's great they integrated the music player into the game itself for Civ IV, pausing the track during cut scenes, etc.

Of course, you need to do something like that for a turn-based strategy game with long turns and long games. Otherwise any "score" would get old really really fast.

Re:Cause someone will bring this up:

[Lemmy Caution]

For them to displace Sony, they'd have to go for Sony's niche: highly cinematic games, high-end visuals, strong art-directorial games, content from Japan, etc. Increasingly, Sony is also identifying the PS3 niche as the friendlist to indie and art-games. That niche is the smallest of the three at the moment, but it is still a solid and viable niche.

Apple, based on what we've seen, seems to want to compete more Nintendo: play experiences, gestural and full-body input, casual-friendly, integration with hand-helds, etc. While the Wii is strong, it is also the least bouyed by exclusive content, and the games are generally replaceable by each other: people buy the Wii to play with the Wii, while they buy the Xbox and PS3 to play titles available for the Xbox and PS3.

Assuming that I'm reading these signals correctly, I see the market lining up this way: people will have their choice of two play-centered consoles (Wii or Apple) and of two performance/content-centered consoles (Xbox or PS3.) For me, the choice of platforms was to get "a Wii plus one of the others" (for me, PS3, because I like more Japan-originated content; but it was a close call, could have gone Xbox, too) - I don't think I'm alone in this.

Re:Cause someone will bring this up:

[curunir]

Everyone who buys a DS is playing a game.

Very few people who buy iphones and the like do so for games.

This is exactly why they should be worried, not the other way around. People are already buying iPhones and iPods that offer similar gaming capabilities. This makes convincing people to shell out money for a dedicated gaming device harder since the challenge isn't convincing them why they need the device, it's convincing them why they need both devices.

I know personally I own an iPhone for two main reasons...it eliminates the need for me to carry a cell phone and an ipod and I have a real browser wherever I go. But for me to buy a DS, I now need to be convinced that I really do need to carry two devices around again. That's a tough sell since the games for the DS are both more expensive and not that much better than what's available for the iPod. Apple can sell me a game by convincing me that it's worth the $4.99 I'm paying for it. Nintendo must convince me that a game is worth $20 and that their entire game catalog is worth an additional ~$100 and the hassle of toting a dedicated gaming device with me at all times. And to top it all off, they have to convince me to get off my ass and head down to a retail store to get the game or wait the few days it takes an online vendor to get it to me. If I'm bored and want to play a game on my iPhone, I can browse for one that looks fun and be playing it 2-3 minutes later.

That's why Nintendo should be scared...they're likely to always be a better gaming platform than the iPhone/iPod. But if the iPhone and iPod can close the gap enough to convince people that it isn't worth it to have a dedicated portable gaming system, their sales will take a huge hit.

Re:Cause someone will bring this up:

[bizwriter]

I agree. But it could siphon off enough more casual gaming sales to hurt Nintendo, Sony, and Microsoft.

Re:Cause someone will bring this up:

[Stormx2]

Man, the Tony Hawk games had some of the best soundtracks ever!

Re:Cause someone will bring this up:

[thetoadwarrior]

I would imagine they're more interested in going after MS and the PC gaming market.

Re:Cause someone will bring this up:

[morari]

And yet Burnout Paradise does not have this feature on the PC, where it'd be even easier to implement.

Re:Cause someone will bring this up:

[mdwh2]

Are you aware of what the primary purpose of a phone is?

Hint: It's not to buy whatever apps are being sold on their app-store.

Re:Cause someone will bring this up:

[mdwh2]

And Hewlett-Packard sold 13.3 million a quarter - your point? You're comparing different markets.

The mobile phone market is vastly bigger than handheld consoles. If they were going to be worried about someone, they should be worried about Nokia (who shipped 117.8 million phones a quarter during last year). They might, after that, be worried about Samsung (51.8 million a quarter), Motorola (25.4 million a quarter) and LG (23 million a quarter) ( http://www.electronista.com/articles/08/10/30/motorola.q3.2008.results/ ). And the vast majority of these phones can play games (using an industry standard method that's been around over a decade allowing different models of phones to run the same software, though the Iphone has yet to catch up to this ability). (If you're going to quibble about sales of an individual model, then that unfairly penalises other companies for offering more choice to consumers, and anyway there have been different models of the Iphone; but even for single models, the Motorola RAZR alone sold 110 million.)

Sorry guys, but despite all the stories that Slashdot posts about it ("You can read this website on an Iphone! Isn't that amazing!"), at 4 million sales they're a niche player in the mobile phone market.

Re:Cause someone will bring this up:

[mdwh2]

Since most phones come with games installed for free, that's true of most phones. Whilst I'm sure that Nintendo do have some concern about increasing competition from mobile phones, the idea that the Iphone presents more competition than major players like Nokia is just pro-Apple FUD again, I'm afraid.

But you have your logic backwards. The concern for Nintendo is not "people who buy a phone and then have a game on it", it's "out of people who decide they want a handheld gaming device, how many of them buy a phone?" You have offered no evidence to suggest that any significant number of phone sales were from people looking for a gaming device.

I don't see how Apple can't surpass the DS easily.

If you mean surpass in sales, then plenty of companies have "easily" done that - and left both Nintendo, and Apple, long behind.

Re:Cause someone will bring this up:

[mdwh2]

My Motorola V980 functions as a music player, phone, Internet device, gaming platform, camera and video recorder. (I did consider getting an Iphone, but I'd have to carry around a separate device for video.)

It's amazing the way that music fades out automatically when someone rings me - uncanny isn't it, it's almost as if they realised that playing the music and the person speaking to you through the loudspeaker at the same time might just be a bad idea.

However, I still prefer a separate mp3 player when I'm travelling, so I don't find my battery's drained because I've been listening to music for ages, or I've used the flash a few too many times on the camera.

Re:Cause someone will bring this up:

[TheSambassador]

And even easier to do yourself!

Step 1: Turn off in-game music

Step 2: Start playing music in the media player of your choice

Step 3: Start game!

Step 4: ???

Step 5: Profit!

Re:Cause someone will bring this up:

[mdwh2]

No, the total sales is 37 million: http://www.macworld.co.uk/mac/news/index.cfm?newsid=25810 .

Which is a drop in the ocean compared to the hundreds of millions sold by the other companies, as I said in my other post.

Not to mention that the other phones are generally compatible with each other across different make/models - whilst Apple think their 37 million is an "enormous platform", the Java platform runs on 2.1 billion phones.

Re:Cause someone will bring this up:

[bluefoxlucid]

Market saturation, man. They need a certain size chunk of the market to be viable; the market historically can only support three major consoles and one major handheld (hence how Gameboy beat Gamegear even though there were only two? DS versus PSP, the PSP manages but the DS is THE handheld platform? etc). Whenever there have been two, one of the minor players (read: the ones that die out after a failed attempt) took hold; in periods of stress, major players dropped for new contenders (i.e. Atari, Sega, etc).

It has nothing to do with niche; if Apple displaces enough of the market to gain a solid foothold, the worst performer will drop out. Right now, Sony has that bottom sales spot.

Re:Cause someone will bring this up:

[arekusu_ou]

This could work like Nader with Bush vs Gore. Nader stole enough votes from Gore to bring Bush into power. This could work the same with the WII bringing in the XBox360 into even higher margin over the others!

Re:Cause someone will bring this up:

[mgblst]

You make a good point, but also seem to be ignoring the casual gamer crowd. These people aren't going to buy a dedicated machine, but might by a couple of games from $10. This market could be huge. Also, with the iPhone, you have a huge market for non-game applications, like cooking, etc...

Re:Cause someone will bring this up:

[Anonymous Coward]

The discreete device argument was brought foward 5 years ago when the discussion was on that the PDAs are probably better within a phone or a phone should also have pda functionality. Guess what the PDA market is today, dead and every pda sold is now called a smartphone!

It is less a matter of being discreet or combined it is a matter of being able to use the functionality without having problems reaching it. That is usually the point when the discreet device dies and the combined one takes over, nobody likes to drag around 20 gadgets when one can do it all!

The problem i see currently with smartphones also being a gaming platform is the input! Nokia tried it bug failed miserably due to many reasons and I do not see Apple going anywhere with their current touchscreens!

Re:Cause someone will bring this up:

[Anonymous Coward]

I can imagine it now, a small box, barely larger than a mac mini, that plays games like an xbox and media like an ATV, everything DRMed to hell and back again, a small white controller the size of the current apple remote, with only one button, and to get audio out, you'll have to buy a special licenced adapter to convert the mag-safe audio video connector into regular 3mm audio jack.
Oh, and it will cost $3000 and it's lucky users will complain of the sony playstation tax.

I can't wait!

Re:Cause someone will bring this up:

[Sj0]

Casual gaming is a perfect example of a market doomed to be taken over by free and open source software. An A-list game might have excessive barriers to entry, but a casual game is often equivalent to a single puzzle in an adventure game. The OSS crowd has shown they're very good at solving such simple problems.

Re:Cause someone will bring this up:

[Sj0]

On a couple occasions, I've bought a PDA, imagining It'd be great -- Gaming, music, applications, and it integrated with my phone (and gps too).

It's never been very good. Battery life was greatly reduced compared to dedicated units. The interface for gaming and music was horrible compared to a dedicated unit. GPS routing and mapping was a joke.

The PDA/Phone combination makes sense because the usage patterns tend to be similar. Most people only flip open their PDA for 2-3 seconds to do something or take a note. This is comparable to usage patterns for a phone. By contrast, an MP3 player or a video game console are on all the time.

But I'm an old fogey in this regard. My phone doesn't have a camera. It doesn't have the Internet. It doesn't have special ringtones. It doesn't have a touchscreen. It doesn't have applications. It makes phone calls and lasts weeks without a charge. My iPod will last a full 24 hours playing music. My DS will last hours and hours. Combining them all, my phone, mp3 player, and DS would all be dead all the time.

Re:Cause someone will bring this up:

[hkmwbz]

Remember, though, that the first, ridiculous incarnation of the iPhone didn't even have 3G which is a laughable omission for a supposedly hi-tech company

And yet it became a huge success.

Re:Cause someone will bring this up:

[Anonymous Coward]

DS and DSI = dedicated gaming device, portable
iPod Touch/iPhone = multimedia and applications

Not everyone who owns an iPod touch or iPhone are necessarily going to play games. the iPhone overlaps with phones and the iPod touch overlaps with mp3 players.

Re:Cause someone will bring this up:

[n00854180t]

Yeah I have to say (in my professional opinion as a game developer), most of those patents are wishful thinking or out and out bullshit.
For example this: "Why not take a picture of yourself with an included camera and have your features actually appear on a game character?"
Which is fine, and would be a great idea had not everyone in the industry been trying it for the past ten years, and failing miserably, because of the simple fact that nothing of that sort will *EVER* match up with the art in a game, unless specifically tailored to do so, or the capturing mechanism is something more sophisticated than camera based techniques can provide (i.e., 3D surface scanning, which isn't feasible for home users anyway).
And this: "Intelligent Audio Mixing Among Media Playback And At Least One Other Non-Playback Application."
Too bad it's been done before, so WTF? Big deal.
Not to mention, I personally find it hard to believe that many game devs would really want to invest in making a game for this thing, when the device itself could potentially fuck the user experience through no fault of the developers.

Re:Cause someone will bring this up:

[badkarmadayaccount]

Who is the nitwit writing assembly for a game, and using direct hardware access? They sure don't give a shit what the hardware is on a PC, yet PC games handle well. As for power, just build for the lowest reasonable common denominator.

Re:Cause someone will bring this up:

[Patch86]

By "hardware" I meant more worrying about processing power and RAM quantities and such what. Bringing out a PC game often means deciding between cutting-edge, eye-bleeding graphics, particle physics and so forth, or scaling it back so that people with machines more then 2 months old might actually be able to play it (a desirable thing for anyone hoping to sells some actual copies of the game). Or trying to encapsulate every aspect of the game in variable options that the user can tweak to match their system specs, AND making sure it looks and plays tolerably under every possible setting.

Console games don't have to worry about any of that. If a game runs on one Xbox 360, it'll run on them all.

pure speculation

[Anonymous Coward]

These patents describe something that sounds an awful lot like the current iPhone and iTunes store. I don't see how you make the leap to iGameboy.

Re:pure speculation

[tomhudson]

Nintendo already does most of this. Combination game console, picture sharing, voice communication with anyone in the world, surf the net, buy stuff from their online store, everything organized in "channels", a natural interface that supports gestures, and (until the last update, which removed mp3 support) you could play your own music for some titles. So - Wii combined game/media/internet console FTW.

Apple isn't a game company.

iBox game store?

[Anonymous Coward]

Something seems incredibly interesting about the prospect of a game console with an iPhone like app/game store. I could definitely see myself buying one if they do come out, especially if I could easily program my own games for it.

Re:iBox game store?

[bluefoxlucid]

The DSi has a DSware store like the WiiWare store.

Thought we already had an Apple console...

[Bieeanda]

...in the Xbox 360. It's white, has a circular interface on the front panel, and as Apple considers the iPods, the RROD makes it disposable.

Re:Thought we already had an Apple console...

[Tarlus]

Woah... you did NOT just call Apple and Microsoft the same thing... on Slashdot of all places! ;)

Re:Thought we already had an Apple console...

[ActusReus]

Sigh... in the not-so-distant past, when the Slashdot community was oriented around open vs. proprietary discussions, Microsoft and Apple very much WAS considered to occupy the same basic space.

These days Slashdot is all about piracy, fads and rumors in social networking sites, and discussions about marketing. The occasional GPL vs. BSD/MIT/Apache flamewar still sprouts up, but mostly it's just fanboys praising or bad-mouthing various shiny objects on the basis of how "sexy" they are.

Apple sells "better" stuff, Microsoft sells "more" stuff. Other than that, yeah... they are pretty much the same thing.

Re:Thought we already had an Apple console...

[RiotingPacifist]

You forgot that its uses a PowerPC architecture!

Re:Thought we already had an Apple console...

[SailorSpork]

Actually, you can also play your own music in games on your Xbox, and Xbox Live has an online store for games and videos. Other than a multi-touch interface (Nintendo DS's turf), what is Apple doing new besides combining these and putting their logo on it?

Re:Thought we already had an Apple console...

[Tarlus]

The DS doesn't support multi-touch, which is something that gives the iPhone/iTouch a unique advantage.

Re:Thought we already had an Apple console...

[Gilmoure]

Um... Pico ROCKS!

Re:Thought we already had an Apple console...

[baKanale]

putting their logo on it?

For some people that's all they need to do...

Re:Thought we already had an Apple console...

[robus]

I think what's changed is that since it released OS X (with its Darwin underpinnings) Apple is straddling thing open/closed worlds and so makes the argument more difficult to make.

Microsoft is clearly proprietary.
Linux is clearly open.
Apple is somewhere in the middle.

Re:Thought we already had an Apple console...

[HandleMyBidness]

OSX can compile POSIX code and has a BSD terminal, FYI.
http://www.apple.com/macosx/technology/unix.html

Re:Thought we already had an Apple console...

[bartok]

You can legally install Windows on any PC you buy. Not with OS X. Apple and Microsoft are all about control

Re:Thought we already had an Apple console...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, but you can install Darwin on any computer you like. That's the operating system. Mac OS X is pretty much just the GUI on top. It's like putting any other application on any other OS.

Re:Thought we already had an Apple console...

[badkarmadayaccount]

Yeah!...Wait, I was supposed to disagree?...

Xbox 361

[steelclash84]

Sounds like an a shiny opengl xbox that will most likely cost more...that will cost money every time they update the firmware. They can't get a very good game support on their PCs, and they intend to get support from developers on this? Highly unlikely...

Re:Xbox 361

[Actually, I do RTFA]

They can't get a very good game support on their PCs, and they intend to get support from developers on this

And they want all games ported to Objective-C. For fuck's sake Apple, let us use C++ on the iPhone like a good computer company.

Re:Xbox 361

[Anonymous Coward]

Obviously, you haven't coded for the iPhone...

You can use C++! The user-interface must be programmed with Objective C.

Assuming that you just want an OpenGL view where you can throw in your game graphics, you just need to set up an App delegate, a view controller and a view. One of the standard templates gives you everything you need on the objective C side.

So if you want to do OpenGL and C++ on the iPhone just start!

Re:Xbox 361

[Actually, I do RTFA]

Obviously, you haven't coded for the iPhone...

Correct.

You can use C++! The user-interface must be programmed with Objective C.

That's a pretty big hurdle... but not insurmountable

Assuming that you just want an OpenGL view where you can throw in your game graphics, you just need to set up an App delegate, a view controller and a view. One of the standard templates gives you everything you need on the objective C side.

Argh, why do I have to look at a templatein Objective C. Presumably, "fill a window with OpenGL" ought to just be a single call to a library written in Objective C.

Re:Xbox 361

[northstarlarry]

"Template" in this case may be a poorly-chosen word. It doesn't mean C++ style template, it's more like "Pick from this list the category of app you want to write. Okay, now here's a whole bunch of boilerplate code with 98% of the framework calls you'd have to write already made for you." Then you essentially, yes, just write your OpenGL code (plain C is legal Obj-C), change some arguments in those framework calls, and compile!

Obj-C, btw, isn't too hard to pick up. It only adds one major syntactical feature to C, for calling methods on objects. Lack of automatic garbage collection can be annoying, but learning Apple's frameworks is really the hardest part. Seems to be a good way to make some money on the side these days.

They already do all this

[Captain Spam]

Here is some what we can look for: having your personal music integrated into a title, a 'natural' gesture multitouch interface, and a single online store that sells games, media, and video.

So... they're just claiming patents on the iPhone and iPod Touch?

Re:They already do all this

[Anonymous Coward]

My thought exactly.

Deep thinking I know...

Re:They already do all this

[bonch]

Exactly. The article summary is dumb. "Evidence has been growing that Apple is developing a new gaming console." Uh, no, it hasn't. If anything, the evidence just says Apple is adding new app/game features on the iPhone and iPod.

Ooh.. another "consumer" device.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's like receiving a puppy as a gift, except without the warm wet kisses. It just costs, and costs, and costs..

Patent a store?

[Anonymous Coward]

Does anyone else have a problem with trying to patent a "single online store that sells games, media, and video?"

I mean, c'mon...

Re:Patent a store?

[Anonymous Coward]

Does anyone else have a problem with trying to patent a "single online store that sells games, media, and video?"
I mean, c'mon...

No kidding. I thought Amazon already had this patent.

Re:Patent a store?

[Anonymous Coward]

not to mention most systems already do this....

Integrating your personal music into the game?

[b96miata]

Sounds like something the 360 does right now.

Maybe the patent covers a system whereby you're forced to pay the console maker for the music you want to integrate.

Re:Integrating your personal music into the game?

[Spatial]

And the PS3 and some PSP games. But like all Slashdot summaries about patents, it probably left out some specific to make it sound more stupid than it actually is.

Re:Integrating your personal music into the game?

[rotor]

I've always been happy to just play the stereo while I'm gaming.

Re:Integrating your personal music into the game?

[tepples]

I've always been happy to just play the stereo while I'm gaming.

That would work if you can turn off the game's music, and if you can set up your stereo to mix the Xbox 360 and music source so that you don't miss world cues that the game presents through sound effects. I doubt that the median console owner can figure out the latter.

Re:Integrating your personal music into the game?

[amicusNYCL]

In GTA: Vice City (released for Windows in 2003), and maybe earlier ones too, you could copy any MP3s you want into a folder in the game directory structure and play them through a station on the in-game car radio.

Re:Integrating your personal music into the game?

[MROD]

Oolite (the Elite re-implementation, http://oolite.org/) already allows you to use your iTunes database for docking music and has done so for many years.

Re:Integrating your personal music into the game?

[Nursie]

Yeah, doesn't seem novel. In GTA: Liberty City Stories for PSP there was this ability too - if you could find the tool to convert stuff to the right format.

Re:Integrating your personal music into the game?

[bizwriter]

If you look at the patent, it's more complex. Apple's talking about having the way the games work change based on things like what music is in your library, what you listen to more frequently, and so on - and having the games potentially change the way your media collection works. I suspect they're talking about something a lot more extensive than simply substituting a music track.

Re:Integrating your personal music into the game?

[TheVelvetFlamebait]

So, Apple is applying for a patent for this "invention"? They would deny everyone else the right to make a system that forces people to buy from them in order to activate a basic feature?

Perhaps software patents can be used for the power of good after all...

Re:Integrating your personal music into the game?

[rts008]

Battlefield Vietnam (EA, 2004) also allowed adding your own mp3's to the game's music folder to be played back on any vehicle's/aircraft radio.

Re:Integrating your personal music into the game?

[Spit]

I recently bought an xbox to play L4D and was pleasantly suprised by the integrated music player, also the divx stuff. They don't really promote it.

Simpler Suggestion

[cabjf]

Perhaps they are planning to offer these types of features in their current iPhone/iPod Touch products? Then allow developers access to the framework in some future firmware update? They could also be planning to move games into their own section on iTunes, as they are selling better than other apps. Most of this stuff already fits their existing hardware anyhow, so I'm not seeing how this leads to a new gaming console.

Re:Simpler Suggestion

[alfredo]

There's also rumors about a Kindle style device. Think of a full color Kindle with the features of the iPhone.

Single-Source media

[Anonymous Coward]

"single online store that sells games, media, and video"

Don't we already have more than enough single-source media (that can't be acquired by other means). Just what we need -- more.

On the contrary, AppleTV would be core

[SuperKendall]

They will probably have to kill Apple TV, though.

To me it seems pretty clear what they want is to dominate casual gaming the way they are starting to in the handheld space (yes I know they are still a long ways behind Nintendo, but there are a LOT of games targeting the iPhone/Touch now).

In order to do that all that is needed is to add some light gaming abilities and controls to the AppleTV. Perhaps it would not look much like what they have today, but I see AppleTV being the core from which they extend into gaming.

I never did think they would do a console before as I thought it made no sense, but seeing as how almost all the games I purchase on consoles now are online smaller games I can see it working. With other consoles still focusing on larger games as a focus Apple could really sweep up the smaller game category. Heck, all they'd have to do is court all of the indie game competition winners going back a few years and they'd have a hell of a system.

Re:On the contrary, AppleTV would be core

[gladish]

I doubt any of these patents have anything to do with a gaming console. We all read how much money it takes to enter the console gaming market. The console are subsidized, etc. Apple is into big margins not paying you to buy their stuff and make it up later. My guess is that all these patents are just interesting ideas by engineers at apple. Anyone who's worked for a tech company with money knows they pay you to file patents. And every jack-ass in sight is busy cranking them out for that extra few grand every year. Besides, the patents are intentionally vague to make it harder to understand what the fuck they're talking about. Notice how the article starts making assumptions as to what they're actually saying. Proof-in-point, they're supposed to be hard to figure out. This way the patent covers as board of a range as possible, therefore, making it more valuable. As far as the hiring of the gaming execs and chip designers. I don't know, maybe they're there to beef up the hand-held gaming on iphones and ipod touches. That's more likely than a console.

Re:On the contrary, AppleTV would be core

[SuperKendall]

I agree that the patents are probably just different ideas, and if anything are more related to Touch/iPhone development.

But it would not take much money for Apple to enter the gaming market if as I said they went for casual gaming only. There's no need for physical media. There's no need to do anything other than what they are doing with the AppleTV already, apart from open up a new section of the store for AppleTV games. The system already has full OpenGL support and OS X underneath. Being casual games you don't need a tricked out graphics processor.

The only trick would be convincing game developers to write anything for a platform with fewer users. But as long as the games would also work on other Mac systems the market would be of decent size, and if like I said they convinced a number of indie games to write ports (which doesn't seem like it would take a great deal of money) they'd even have some compelling stuff. It could be an experiment the same way the AppleTV system itself is a "hobby" and they could let game sales grow organically while selling the system as they do today.

The only real change would be the addition of some kind of controller, though they could say it was as simple as allowing any keyboard to be a controller.

Re:On the contrary, AppleTV would be core

[earlymon]

I agree and go a few steps further:

1. Increased resolution, up from 720p (Apple is good at this now on the Core2Duo mini, so the barriers are gone)
2. Blu-Ray disk support (or however the hell that's abbreviated, sorry (plus, I only *think* Wii doesn't have this and XBox does - I'm no gamer, so I don't know)
3. Netflix support? Check out the Samsung BD-P1600 to see the integration referred to....
4. If #3, then also maybe a similar rental deal with those guys that advertise games like Netflix
5. Certainly iTMS support then, for movies and games, even if they make the typical Apple mistake of bypassing 3 and 4, above
6. Certainly, by this point, the unit has everything required for access to a Apple user's shared movie and music files on his Mac - Apple TV is very cool (even though I opted to use a mini myself)

And FWIW, you can do a lot nowadays with their existing line and a bit a software for remote control:
http://www.jaaduvnc.com/

Now, I'm not big-ass Apple fanboy trying to describe the gee-whiz-they-can-do-it-all meme.

I'm onto the business model, as you are. Apple was part of the Blu-Ray consortium, but has never brought out a product - it's been a while, but the dust has settled on the HD-DVD debate. Blu-Ray is getting cheaper, as are 1080p HDTVs - the latter of which is getting more common in every provider's lineup.

So - if it were my business, and have done the legwork for a technically winning product (for what it was) like Apple TV that failed in the market, but now have a better experience in my computer line supporting 1080p, and have gained experience playing in the HD and TV fields - but I restrict HD quality for my computer users (DRM evil, yadda yadda) - how would I proceed?

Apple TV 1080p w/ Blu-Ray.

But Apple TV didn't set the market on fire and Blu-Ray hasn't yet - how would I hedge my marketing bets?

By adding only a few percent more effort - a remote and some software - and also make it a gaming console.

This isn't a gaming console that will incorporate Apple TV. This may well be the new Apple TV that incorporates a gaming console.

Re:On the contrary, AppleTV would be core

[Gilmoure]

Only thing I'd add to this wish list is the ability to put a DVD in an Apple TV and have it ripped to iTunes automatically.

I spent all last summer ripping 300+ DVD's for use on my Apple TV. I have it tethered to a first gen MacMini with an external 1TB drive for all this.

If I was to start on this project today, I'd bypass the Apple TV and just get a MacMini. Would be easy enough to script Handbrake and iTunes to do this.

Maybe they'll come up with a MacMiniAVG for all this?

Re:On the contrary, AppleTV would be core

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been screaming for this for years, but I know it will never happen. Let me repeat that: IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN.

Apple is very inconsistent in its public stance on DRM. They say it is bad for music, but good for movies and TV shows. The argument is mind-bogglingly stupid: that music CDs never had DRM, but DVDs have always had it. Therefore, they argue that DRM is perfectly reasonable on video content.

That is, of course, a steaming load of horse crap. But it's the given as the justification for why iTunes will never, ever, ever rip CSS-encrypted DVDs, or whatever-it-is-encrypted Blu-Ray discs, even under fair use doctrine. And it is why the iTMS will never offer the vast majority of its TV shows and movies without DRM.

I suspect there's also a more personal reason for this - that Steve Jobs also heads up Pixar, and is the largest shareholder of Disney stock. He has a lot more to (supposedly) lose to movie piracy than music, so he's bought into the BS arguments in favor of DRM there. So while he writes these beautiful anti-DRM open letters to the public in regards to music, allowing himself to come across as a saint fighting for the little guy, the dirty little secret is that he wants no such thing for movies.

Plus, it just seems like the movie industry has a much tighter hold on DRM in their products, and is less likely to lose it like the music industry did. I'll bet the music execs cry themselves to sleep every night, jealous that they didn't think to encrypt CDs like the movies guys did with DVDs.

Of course, it's all mind-numbingly stupid, because if only one copy gets out successfully, that's the end of the game. And it punishes those of us who just want to exercise our fair use rights regarding the products we willingly paid for. Bah.

Given all of the above, I'm still amazed that DVD Player and Front Row will actually play (obviously ripped) VIDEO_TS folders from the hard drive. It takes a little more work with some external programs, but I pretty much have what I want now, just not with the easy interface of doing it all in something like iTunes. Oh, well!

Re:On the contrary, AppleTV would be core

[Gilmoure]

Hey, total wish list here. I remember when iTunes first came out and how easy it was at work for everyone to dip into each other's collections.

But beyond iTunes being allowed to RIP DVD's, I'd be happy with a DVD drive on the Apple TV. Would then be able to script things around to do the same thing. Or, just get a new Mini, with the hardware to handle .m4v files manipulation and be done with it. As for _TS files, yeah, I'm losing out on menus and extras (except what I've pulled from disk as discrete files) but if I was going for full on disk duplication, I'd be looking at needing 3x my current HD space. Darn you LotRs!

Re:On the contrary, AppleTV would be core

[mrchaotica]

Only thing I'd add to this wish list is the ability to put a DVD in an Apple TV and have it ripped to iTunes automatically.

It'll never happen, because of the DMCA. CSS is completely broken, useless, and trivial, but it still counts as encryption under the law.

Re:On the contrary, AppleTV would be core

[DinDaddy]

I doubt any of these patents have anything to do with a gaming console. We all read how much money it takes to enter the console gaming market. The console are subsidized, etc. Apple is into big margins not paying you to buy their stuff and make it up later.

Everyone knew that there wasn't much money in phones for the mfrs because the telcos insisted they were cheap and kept the profit for themselves too.

But, I do agree your conclusion is probably right

Does it even need new hardware?

[Sockatume]

All of the stuff mentioned there could apply equally well to the iPhone and iPod Touch, which Apple have been positioning as proper gaming devices anyway.

Re:Does it even need new hardware?

[bonch]

But that wouldn't generate stupid Apple rumors with no basis in reality.

Re:Does it even need new hardware?

[Esc7]

As an iPhone developer I have to say THANK YOU! All these patents fall completely under what is going on with the iphone. If you check out most iphone games you can see that they have the option to listen to your iTunes while playing the game. I've been talking to my coworkers about these rumors of an "Apple console, finally" and I have to tell you it already happened, the iPhone touch OS is it.

Uhhh...

[Idiomatick]

Sounds like patents for games on the iphone and ipod. Am I missing something? Or maybe something like a media center. Hell my DVD player came with 2 games. That does NOT make it a console.

iPhone?

[Val314]

"having your personal music integrated into a title, a 'natural' gesture multitouch interface, and a single online store that sells games, media, and video.""

sure sounds like the iPhone/iPod touch with the iTunes Store, doesn't it?

I doubt that they will make a "Apple iWii"

Re:iPhone?

[V!NCENT]

I doubt that they will make a "Apple iWii"

An Apple iWhy? I don't know HOW they do it, but they just keep on surprising me with their intuitive design!

"It's a total waste of your monÃh; the iWhy? Never again was it so easy to just ask yourself why the hell you paid for the latest incarnation from Apple... again! Something ofcourse that's not so easy for the PC, but to hell with it! PC's suck at everything and not just at wasting time alone. Redmond start your photocopiers! Oh it was actually a joke but they took it quite seriously. Let's have a look at Windows 7. Dell even copied the expensive pricetag, but they didn't did that quite well".

Re:iPhone?

[blitzkrieg3]

I doubt that they will make a "Apple iWii"

Not to be confused with the ewi .

Without buttons its worthless

[grapeape]

While things work fine for the casual market, for deeper and more complex games that the hardcore crowd will actually want they are going to have to add some buttons. Though its great not having a stylus to loose, the type of screen the current iPhone and Touch use is simply not accurate enough for heavy gaming. The gyros are nice but games that use them are mostly a one trick pony so far. I know Apple is all about slick and elegant but practical would do them alot of good. I'd love to see the iPhone/Touch as a viable gaming platfom, its specs are better than any handheld on the market but its interface cripples it.

Re:Without buttons its worthless

[dogzilla]

Except that the hardcore gaming market is tiny compared to the casual gaming market. So if you want to, you know, actually earn money instead of bragging rights, this isn't much of an issue.

Re:Without buttons its worthless

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes but except for few exceptions like Wii Fit, casual gaming market is heavily fractured. And you'll have to sell 3-5 copies of it to match the sale of a 1 hardcore game.

Re:Without buttons its worthless

[whisper_jeff]

Lots of people claimed that the Wii would fail because it's graphics weren't adequate for what hardcore gamers wanted. Nintendo proved them wrong.

I'm just sayin'.

Re:Without buttons its worthless

[shdowhawk]

These are estimated costs from the Gamestop Website.

Sony PSP: $170 ($120 refurbed)
Nintendo DS: $170 ($80 refurbed)
Nintendo Wii: $250

Apple Touch 8G: $229
32G: $399

Apples Potential Strategy:
1. Alter the touch to add an up/down/left/right and A, B button (10 extra bucks from a manufacturing standpoint!? I'm pulling this number out of my ass... but adding something that simple and mass producing can't be expensive)
2. Release the 16gig as the new 8gig ($225... maybe bring it down down $199 to combat current systems)
3. Now hardcores get what they want, wii crowd gets a portable wii like system
4. Introduce a massive new crowd to the iTunes store who might not have used it before
5. Massive profit

Re:Without buttons its worthless

[Millennium]

Depth and complexity are entirely different things, and the attempt to tie them together has driven more people away from gaming than quite possibly any other aspect of the downhill slide gaming has suffered from over the last ten years.

Depth is good, but can and should be achieved without gratuitous complexity. Fortunately, it's been done many times throughout the history of gaming, video and otherwise, so there are plenty of examples from which one can draw inspiration. It's just a matter of letting go of the ridiculous idea that learning the basic moves of a game should take more than five minutes.

Re:Without buttons its worthless

[lymond01]

Consider dual wielding two Wii-like controllers, and give them buttons as well. Your swinging becomes the blades of your toon, your left thumb button becomes movement, right thumb button jump. A trigger on one hand becomes the camera and a trigger on the other has special contextual functions.

You become a dual-wielding jedi knight -- just move your mom's vase out of the room.

Re:Without buttons its worthless

[mdarksbane]

I'd say it is more that some players enjoy the greater complexity, and many of those players are the sorts of people who go into game development.

Some people get a big mental reward from being presented with a difficult thing, mastering it, and then using it. It's like racing with an automatic versus a stick. Automatic drivers would be people like you, who want to enjoy the depth of driving without having to master complex controls to do it (put gas to go, point car at destination - then let the course provide the difficulty). Whereas people who prefer a stick enjoy having the extra control, and honestly even the extra complexity that it requires.

There's a market for both people. The problem is that generally the more one gets into a hobby, the more one becomes the second group. How many racers prefer an automatic, versus how many drivers? Not many. And the people who play games all the time (and are looking for more complexity and control) are the ones making the games.

Re:Without buttons its worthless

[RiotingPacifist]

Except that gamers, will pay £30-40 for a game and will keep coming back for more. So not only do you need to ship 3x as many copies in a much more saturated market, but you also don't have a userbase ready to buy v2,3,4 at the drop of a pin.

Re:Without buttons its worthless

[Anonymous Coward]

"[N]ot accurate enough" in what way, precisely? Have you played, say, Glandarius Wing Strike? It may not be a particularly hardcore example of its genre, but I'd say it qualifies as a hardcore game in general, and it does it easily within the UI constraints.

Re:Without buttons its worthless

[Lemmy Caution]

They could just get a bunch of old N-Gages and paint them white.

Re:Without buttons its worthless

[Ash-Fox]

Lots of people claimed that the Wii would fail because it's graphics weren't adequate for what hardcore gamers wanted. Nintendo proved them wrong.

But also plenty of people claimed it would work too.

Now with Apple, I haven't really seen that many say it would work, but it might be because of Apple's previous experience.

Re:Without buttons its worthless

[pablo_mccombs]

They can make more money from normal people than they can from the hardcore crowd. Stop and consider that their market is not you.

Re:Without buttons its worthless

[Jerry Smith]

These are estimated costs from the Gamestop Website.

Sony PSP: $170 ($120 refurbed) Nintendo DS: $170 ($80 refurbed) Nintendo Wii: $250

Apple Touch 8G: $229 32G: $399

Apples Potential Strategy: 1. Alter the touch to add an up/down/left/right and A, B button (10 extra bucks from a manufacturing standpoint!? I'm pulling this number out of my ass... but adding something that simple and mass producing can't be expensive) 2. Release the 16gig as the new 8gig ($225... maybe bring it down down $199 to combat current systems) 3. Now hardcores get what they want, wii crowd gets a portable wii like system 4. Introduce a massive new crowd to the iTunes store who might not have used it before 5. Massive profit

No, not MORE buttons on the device. That is not an Apple philosophy. If it only were 2 cm taller, left and right on the touchscreen (tilted sideways) would be room for buttons though...

Re:Without buttons its worthless

[billius]

Indeed. If there are no buttons, what will I have to mash?

Re:Without buttons its worthless

[Anonymous Coward]

iPhone 3.0

support for peripherals on the dock connector

Sled with buttons:

http://www.iphonehacks.com/2008/05/icontrolpad.html

Buttons (and the bulk associated with them) for those who really want them.

Online store...that's original.

[rwrife]

An online store that sells music, movies, games, etc....sounds like XBox Live.

Re:Online store...that's original.

[BlueKitties]

To be fair, online stores seem like a fairly obvious and natural progression for entertainment consoles.

Re:Online store...that's original.

[KermodeBear]

It is original because now Apple is doing it.

Re:Online store...that's original.

[TheVelvetFlamebait]

Some are born original, some achieve originality, and some have originality thrust upon 'em.

-- Steve Jobs, presumably.

The Laptop Wheel is a Reality

[Audiophyle]

The controller has already been released!

Re:The Laptop Wheel is a Reality

[Icegryphon]

The first time I saw that about a month ago I nearly passed out from laughter.
"I'll Buy Anything As Long As It's Shiny and Made By Apple"
The very best satirical pieces are those that are so close to the truth you can almost believe it.
Something that is sadly missing in this day and age.

It's a matter of promotion

[tepples]

I don't see how you make the leap to iGameboy.

Apple signs exclusivity deals for a few major video game publishers' games that it thinks are good enough to be system sellers for the iPod Touch. Then Apple enters into a co-promotion agreement with the publishers that includes "only on iPhone and iPod Touch" branding in advertisements, just like some DS games' commercials say "only on DS".

Not the first speculating

[xlotlu]

The Inquirer's ranty Charlie Demerijan was on to this earlier: http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1052027/apple-console

Community Games on Xbox 360

[tepples]

Something seems incredibly interesting about the prospect of a game console with an iPhone like app/game store. I could definitely see myself buying one if they do come out, especially if I could easily program my own games for it.

Given that the app store for the iPod Touch uses almost the same business model as the "Community Games" store for the Xbox 360, I'd recommend that you buy an Xbox 360. Like the iPod Touch, the Xbox 360 needs a specific host operating system (Windows) to run the developer tools, and running your code on the console requires a $100/year developer certificate.

Games != Windows :-D

[starglider29a]

Many people [citation needed] use Windows solely because it's how they play their games. With the excuse of "I can't play cool games on a Mac" gone, those "slaves to the game" Windows users will have no excuse, and will switch to Mac.

Re:Games != Windows :-D

[space_jake]

Unlikely, in the real world developers will be split on platform lines and exclusives will abound.

Re:Games != Windows :-D

[TheSambassador]

Except that absolutely isn't the only reason PC gamers don't use Macs.

Macs are overpriced for the components they have and are almost completely uncustomizable. Obviously the very similar hardware that they all run on is good for the average user who just wants to play a simple game, but for actual gamers it's not as good.

When I can build a Mac from scratch and not have to spend a bazillion dollars on everything, I'll CONSIDER switching... until then the PC gives me the customizability that I want.

Re:Games != Windows :-D

[amicusNYCL]

Being able to play a game on an iPhone or Apple game console isn't exactly the same thing as sitting down in front of my computer and playing the games I want to play.

It doesn't matter if I can play specific games on Apple hardware, what matters is if I can play the games I want to play. Right now I'm into things like Team Fortress 2 and Far Cry 2, and hopefully Empire: Total War once they get the bugs out. If I can't play TF2 or whatever else I specifically want to play, then it doesn't matter what other games they have available.

Macs have always had games available, they just haven't been the games I want to play. I'm not looking for the next Marathon or Oregon Trail sequel, I'm looking for the games I know I want to play.

Also, for the record, my "excuse" for using Windows instead of anything with an Apple logo on it is because I actually *prefer* Windows to Mac, and frankly, within the past year or two I actually have gotten a better opinion of Microsoft over Apple (or, more specifically, my opinion of Apple as a company has shot way, way down). It's not like a Mac is some obviously superior piece of equipment, where the only reason I would possibly use anything else is because the Mac doesn't support what I'm looking for. The reason I don't use Macs is because I prefer Windows XP, bottom line, XP has done everything I need an OS to do for the past 8 years, and at this point it's extremely stable. I've also built all of my own computers for the past 10 years, if I can't build my own Mac then I can stop looking right there. I know what hardware I want, I don't need Apple to tell me. The same goes for Linux machines I build myself, I just happen to prefer XP over most distros I've seen also.

Re:Games != Windows :-D

[geekoid]

Except money.

Fact of the matter is there are a lot of low end PC's and very few low end Macs

I can play any game out right now on a 500 dollar PC. not the highest settings, but more then enough to be playable.

Is the look, style and over all quality the same? no. But when comparing 500 dollars to 1000 dollars many people will live with the difference.

Re:Games != Windows :-D

[geekoid]

"Macs are overpriced for the components they have "
this has been shown to not be true many times.

"e and are almost completely uncustomizable. "
most people don't customize there PC.

"...but for actual gamers it's not as good. "

no, it's better.

BTW, must hard core gamers don't customize their PC anymore either. It's pretty pointless these days.

"When I can build a Mac from scratch..."

you're becoming a niche user. Very few people want to do that. maybe .001% of all people with a PC want to do that.

Good luck buying equivalent parts for less.

Of, and most importantly. If you were truly and hard core gamers, and you new shit about computers, you would WANT OSX to run games because they will run better do to how it manages memory and devices. You get more performance out of a slower chip.

Re:Games != Windows :-D

[Anonymous Coward]

You really know nothing about this. Go price out a mac with a decent video card, then look at how successful Nvidia and ATI are with their latest and greatest money sucks every 6 months, and how well places like NewEgg do selling components to gamers.

OSX superior to Windows + DirectX with game performance? You need to back that up.

Re:Games != Windows :-D

[Anonymous Coward]

mod parent down...this is ridiculous fanboism

Re:Games != Windows :-D

[Ash-Fox]

Note: I am not the grand parent.

"Macs are overpriced for the components they have "
this has been shown to not be true many times.

It has also been shown to be true many times. I have a £400 widescreen laptop (HP DV6000 series) with 802.11a/b/g wireless, dvi, nVidia graphics with 768MB dedicated (not shared) video RAM, 3GB RAM, 120GB harddrive, Intel Core Duo @ 1.66ghz (admittedly slower than a Mac Mini, however the video RAM which the Mac Mini does not have pays off big time), SD card reader, bluetooth, firewire, optical audio, DVD/CD writer & HD DVD ROM, some built in webcam and microphone I never used, 3 USB ports all with maximum bandwith available for each port and it runs the majority of my games at maximum settings quite well. Compare this to the Mac Mini which begins at £499, can't even exceed the performance of my system for most tasks, plays my games like complete utter shit (probably due to the onboard graphics sucking so much - even that slightly faster CPU doesn't help), can't convert movies as fast via VLC.

Sure, this isn't a 1:1 comparison of hardware, but I can get more for less, so why should I settle for very specific components which are not really that great to begin with? If I was willing to spend more, I could of still got a better laptop than what is currently available from Apple and it would cost less with more features - so, for me, non-Apple computers are cheaper and offer more value.

most people don't customize there PC.

..But gamers do.

no, it's better.

No, it's worse, there is far less choice when it comes to graphic cards for one and the ones offered aren't exactly fantastic for gaming.

BTW, must hard core gamers don't customize their PC anymore either. It's pretty pointless these days.

Every hard core gamer I know has at least customized one component after they got a custom built system, be it changing a soundcard to a far better graphics card etc. While not as many, may not build an entire machine from scratch, they do usually customize it to a degree that Apple likely doesn't offer and then customize further after.

Good luck buying equivalent parts for less.

I have heard and seen some great deals on newegg.com for some components, so I do not believe that is a problem.

Of, and most importantly. If you were truly and hard core gamers, and you new shit about computers, you would WANT OSX to run games because they will run better do to how it manages memory and devices.

Why would he want OS X?

It has piss poor OpenGL support, to the point that projects like crossover games have to write custom fixes for each game they support to work on the buggy drivers (there is your superior hardware support!) and messed up OpenGL, while on Linux, BSDs crossover has universal fixes that work for all games for any potential problems which is not application specific.

The memory management is superior? I disagree, OS X's philosophy of applications is to have each application duplicate libraries that aren't frameworks and therefore a lot of common libraries end up taking space multiple times for each application that uses it. I don't see how that is superior memory management at all. This problem does not exist on Windows or Linux, they are both more efficient in terms of memory usage. Windows does have a problem with sometimes with allocating certain wanted information to swap files, however this not really a concern since generally only 'idle' processes and data get sent to the swap file, allowing for greater bursting capability from applications that need it - that said, there are times this does goes wrong, of course most true Windows applications do not suffer from this problem.

You ge

Re:Games != Windows :-D

[TheSambassador]

"Macs are overpriced for the components they have " this has been shown to not be true many times.

Citation please? From my experience in looking at system specs at apple.com and the prices, this is absolutely true.

"e and are almost completely uncustomizable. " most people don't customize there PC.

Note that I said that the average user is fine with their non-customizable parts. It's even-slightly-more-than-casual gamers that do at least a LITTLE customization.

"...but for actual gamers it's not as good. "

no, it's better.

BTW, must hard core gamers don't customize their PC anymore either. It's pretty pointless these days.

I'm not really sure what you're talking about here. I don't know the gamers you hang around, but go to ANY large LAN party and you'll find that the majority of the people there built or at least added parts to their PCs. The people there with some sort of weird Dell XPS are usually made fun of.

"When I can build a Mac from scratch..."

you're becoming a niche user. Very few people want to do that. maybe .001% of all people with a PC want to do that.

Good luck buying equivalent parts for less.

Of, and most importantly. If you were truly and hard core gamers, and you new shit about computers, you would WANT OSX to run games because they will run better do to how it manages memory and devices. You get more performance out of a slower chip.

I was really going to ignore your awful grammar... but that paragraph was just bad. I won't let it stop me from refuting your actual points, but just know that it makes you look silly.

.001% of people? That's 1 in every 100,000 FYI. In the small town I grew up in (which had a population of about 14,000) I knew at least 100 gamers, all of whom built their computers. I'm glad you're capable of spewing random numbers.

Good luck finding equivalent parts for less? Let's do a fun thing here, and look at apple's lowest priced iMac ($1,199). Now I spent 5 minutes composing semi-equivalent parts (some are better), and I have almost halved Apple's price.

Thanks for not knowing what you're talking about. When you buy Apple, you're buying the brand, not really the value.

Re:Games != Windows :-D

[ProfessionalCookie]

OSX to run games because they will run better do to how it manages memory and devices. You get more performance out of a slower chip.

Ok I was following you until this. If anything OSX adds overhead and makes games and the like run slower. Especially due to the way it manages memory. The upside is that the OS itself is fairly robust.

Re:Games != Windows :-D

[mjwx]

Many people [citation needed] use Windows solely because it's how they play their games. With the excuse of "I can't play cool games on a Mac" gone, those "slaves to the game" Windows users will have no excuse, and will switch to Mac.

Will never happen. Mac's are the antithesis of a gaming PC, over-priced and underpowered. For a dedicated gamer, custom-built is the only way to make a PC capable of gaming weather this be custom built at a store or on your own. For my next gaming rig (AMD Phenom II 955, 4 GB 1333 DDR3, Geforce GTX 285, 2x1 TB HDD) it cost me A$2,200 for the parts for the same box to be built by Dell it would easily cost A$1000 more and Dell is a metric arseload cheaper them Apple for mid range hardware, I dont even want to think what the mark-up would be on high end hardware.

Most games are written for DirectX, the best way to make games multi-platform is using OpenGL, if this happens Linux becomes an option (Canonical will jump probably on it). Besides EA is not one of the best PC publishers nor is it the only PC publisher, if Apple purchased EA then Apple will apply its trademark total control policies (iDictator) and force games to be developed for the Iphone/Pod/Mac with Consoles and Windows based PC's being an afterthought. In this case PC Developers will just use a different PC Publisher, few games are made in house by EA and most of the work is done by 3rd party Dev houses and purchased about 1/2 way along production. But as I said, unless Apple manages to create a competing graphics engine to DirectX and OpenGL which is as likely as peace in the Middle-East, they will be forced to use OpenGL in which case Linux becomes an option, or license DirectX and MS will ensure that all Mac games are branded "Games For Windows" and work on Windows.

As a gamer, I'm hoping this happens. EA is a blight on PC Gaming (even more so then Microsoft), the only thing I'd miss is some of the IP that belongs to EA but as many "spiritual successors" like Supreme Commander and ARMA have proven this is less of an obstacle when a good dev wants to make a sequel but cant get the license. I for one welcome the demise of EA.

Re:Games != Windows :-D

[n00854180t]

I call bullshit. Even if Apple makes some bullshit pie-in-the-sky patents, it doesn't mean they're going to single handedly make OpenGL into a modern graphics library, which is the REAL reason many devs write games for Windows.

Re:Games != Windows :-D

[n00854180t]

Wrong. Hardware polls by people like Valve prove you wrong and parent right. Mod parent UP.

Re:Games != Windows :-D

[Anonymous Coward]

Many people [citation needed] use Windows solely because it's how they play their games.

I agree...the only reason I have a PC in my house is for gaming.

RJL

Re:A buzzkiller msg...

[Gizzmonic]

Too much focus on them now. Who has the money to pay for all of this new stuff, when the economy has just bottomed out ?

I do, I'm rich! Screw you plebes, I'm getting a gold-plated Pippin! Seriously though, I don't think Apple is seriously going into the gaming market. They just want the iPhone/App store combo to challenge the DS. They want 3rd party support, and buying EA for that would be like swatting a fly with a Gatling gun.

Handhelds only

[jigoman]

I think convergence is what's is prompting this. Imagine making the iPhone/iPod Touch a portable gaming console. Remember when we used to carry a cell phone, iPod and DS? Millions of you already have Apple's gaming device in your hand. I can't see any sense in Apple coming out with a dedicated gaming device.

Also, I was browsing the AppStore last night and noticed a couple of games that were previously only on the Nintendo DS (Cooking Mama being one). The graphics/gameplay were identical if not better.

Model, view, and controller

[tepples]

And they want all games ported to Objective-C. For fuck's sake Apple, let us use C++ on the iPhone like a good computer company.

First, separate your game into model, view, and controller components. Physics, AI, and map decoding go in the model so that they're identical across platforms, and anything specific to the iPod Touch goes in the view or controller. There exist bindings between Objective-C and C++, and as an AC pointed out, only part of the view and controller need to be written in Objective-C.

XNA on Xbox 360, on the other hand, needs games to be ported to the CLR. At first glance, this would be a deeper rewrite, as I've read that a lot of C++ code doesn't map cleanly onto verifiably type-safe C++/CLI constructs.

Re:Model, view, and controller

[Actually, I do RTFA]

First, separate your game into model, view, and controller components

It's not that simple. The view is pretty complex in games. The controller has to include networking, file i/o, actually controller input and mapping to a unique internal method.

Physics, AI, and map decoding go in the model so that they're identical across platforms

Nice if true, but it's not. Different chipsets (x64, x86 and PowerPC) all require tweaks to the underlying math libraries to optimize performance. Sometimes those tweaks propogate up.

only part of the view and controller need to be written in Objective-C.

Without knowing exactly the dividing line, I can say that those components are pretty complicated. So why should we have to use Objective-C at all? Why should I have to have some other language anywhere in my build?

XNA on Xbox 360, on the other hand, needs games to be ported to the CLR.

XNA is optional. Objective-C is manditory.

Re:Model, view, and controller

[tepples]

XNA is optional.

On Xbox 360, what alternative is there to XNA without becoming a big enough company to get your work into the "ordinary" Xbox Live Arcade?

Re:Model, view, and controller

[Adam Jorgensen]

MVC is a design pattern most appropriate for GUI-based Dekstop Applications. I doubt it would apply well to a game. Hell, it doesn't even apply very well to web applications (The current big resevoir of MVC work...)

Re:Model, view, and controller

[tepples]

MVC is a design pattern most appropriate for GUI-based Dekstop Applications. I doubt it would apply well to a game.

I once developed a game for PC and Game Boy Advance that used the same game engine, with different front-ends on the two platforms. And in fact, MVC is actually quite similar to the client-server model used by multiplayer action games. The server runs a copy of the model so that it can verify player actions, but it need not run a copy of the view unless the server is running on a player's machine. So I don't see how games are different from any other app in this respect. Could you explain?

Re:Model, view, and controller

[n00854180t]

LOL @ using model/view/controller for game development. Sorry, but that's just laughable.

Re:A buzzkiller msg...

[cooperaaaron]

Yea, gimme some of what you drinkin'

Audiosurf?

[Lunatrik]

Seems like integrating private music collections into a game would be prior art.. Audiosurf comes to mind, but I am sure there are plenty of others I am omitting...

I, for one...

[Anonymous Coward]

...Welcome the iBox. Game Different. ...For 999 US dollars.

Re:I, for one...

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you read the price upside down. It's 666. And the product name is iOwnYourSoul.

And you wonder how Apple achieved such power and wealth?

Mind Blowing!

[argent]

Your music could get integrated into the game environment.

It would totally rock to play games incorporating music by my favorite artists like Yasunori Mitsuda, Koji Kondo, and Nobuo Uematsu!

Re:Mind Blowing!

[Garbad Ropedink]

Don't forget Abba!

Re:Mind Blowing!

[argent]

Singstar isn't a *game*, sheesh.

Gyros might acutally help

[silverpig]

Does this mean when I'm late on a corner in a racing game that turning the controller hard into the turn, shaking it up and down, and leaning my body to the right might actually work?!

Doing the math that's a pretty good deal

[SuperKendall]

Yes but except for few exceptions like Wii Fit, casual gaming market is heavily fractured.

That's a developer issue, not a hardware issue...

And you'll have to sell 3-5 copies of it to match the sale of a 1 hardcore game.

You're only talking price per copy, but you ignore you must also spend about 100x the initial amount of money for graphics and level design in any "hardcore" game today.

Re:A buzzkiller msg...

[Anonymous Coward]

That's retarded, EA is irrelevant to handheld.
They were better off buying Eidos instead

How about a nice multitouch keyboard?

[Anonymous Coward]

No, I'm not bitter at all about Apple chewing through companies and scavenging their tech for nothing but shiny toys.

It is sad how much potential is squandered by Apple. It is probably too much to hope that that egotistical megalomaniac Jobs be replaced by a true visionary though.

You'd be wrong

[SuperKendall]

As the other poster noted, the sales are actually better than you'd expect for a niche product.

But the thing you are not considering is that many people use mac minis as home theater systems. They are not technically counted as "AppleTV" units but it has the same effect - people buy a lot of media from iTunes, and many use the same FrontRow software (though many others use things like Boxee).

Re:You'd be wrong

[cayenne8]

"But the thing you are not considering is that many people use mac minis as home theater systems."

I was wanting to use a mac mini, as a front end to my MythTv system, but, from what I understand, they aren't powerful enough to play full HD content?

:(

I'm finally about to turn my myth system to a full client/server setup with separate big backend in my office, and running ethernet cable around the house to smaller frontend boxes by each tv/projector. I've not yet settled on what to use for front ends, but, wish the mini would do HD...good form factor, etc.

Re:You'd be wrong

[SuperKendall]

I was wanting to use a mac mini, as a front end to my MythTV system, but, from what I understand, they aren't powerful enough to play full HD content?

I can play 1080p content on my original Intel Mac mini - using a faster external HD is the key (as is using VLC for playback).

The newer mac minis are more than fast enough, even just using Quicktime (and I think the internal drive is faster now, but still just a laptop drive so an external FW800 drive would make a good addition)..

Re:You'd be wrong

[the_crowbar]

Check out the newest MacMinis. If they have an Nvidia 9xxx integrated video they would make great MythTV systems. I currently run Mythbuntu with the avenard.org repo. Jean-Yves has backported the VDPAU acceleration into the stable Myth series. Using a supported Nvidia card and VDPAU lets you offload video decode to the video card. It takes almost no CPU to decode Blu-Ray rips with this setup. High bitrate 1080p barely touches the CPU. On the MythTv users list there has been discussion of upcoming Nvidia ION platforms (Nvidia 9xxx integrated GPU with Intel Atom CPU). They should compare favorably to the Mac Mini in form and be better priced. The Mini has Core2Duo CPUs so it has better CPU, but with VDPAU you don't need the extra CPU power. Cheers, the_crowbar

Re:You'd be wrong

[jedidiah]

> I was wanting to use a mac mini, as a front end to my MythTv system, but, from what I understand, they aren't powerful enough to play full HD content?

An AppleTV can play "full HD content".

What you are talking about is bluray and other sorts of high bitrate HD h264.

A mini is fine for the rest.

Nevermind the fact that the new mini's support full h264/VC1 acceleration under Linux.

Your local CBS broadcast in HD, a mini can handle.

Re:You'd be wrong

[cayenne8]

"What you are talking about is bluray and other sorts of high bitrate HD h264."

What I want to do, is stream full HD (up to 1080p) from myth backend to the mini as a myth frontend....I was to understand that the best a mini could squeeze out was near 720p...?

The will do better than that?

No Pippin 2.0

[Millennium]

After the disaster that was Pippin, I very much doubt that Apple will be going into that business again. Steve Jobs' animosity toward computer gaming is well-documented, and it is unlikely that he would about-face on something like this, as he would have to have done back when this project started.

More likely, this is an extension of the Apple TV into a more full-fledged set-top PC. Jobs hates games, but he's learned the hard way that games sell computers, so of course he's going to have Apple put some thought into the interface. But this will not be marketed as a game console, and ultimately it will not compete with game consoles.

On the other hand, it's good to see that they're leaning towards Wiimote-like gesture-based control as opposed to 1:1 motion mapping. It's the best of both worlds: the abstraction of buttons alongside the immersion of motion.

Re:No Pippin 2.0

[HandleMyBidness]

On the other hand, it's good to see that they're leaning towards Wiimote-like gesture-based control as opposed to 1:1 motion mapping. It's the best of both worlds: the abstraction of buttons alongside the immersion of motion.

The new Wiimotion Plus gives you 1:1, which is what I was looking for in the original Wiimote (weren't most people?).

Abstraction of buttons? I'd prefer buttons instead of simply moving my hand to simulate pressing them.

Re:No Pippin 2.0

[Anonymous Coward]

One problem with the Pippin was it, like the 3DO, was promoted as a multimedia system rather than as a game console. And "multimedia systems" tend to carry two to three times the price tag of a typical game console. So nobody buys it

But I'm still not giving up mine.

Re:No Pippin 2.0

[Millennium]

Abstraction of buttons? I'd prefer buttons instead of simply moving my hand to simulate pressing them.

What I mean is that buttons provide a layer of abstraction: you tell the onscreen character what to do, and the character does it properly. This is far superior to 1:1, which limits the onscreen character to what the player is capable of doing: not exactly conducive to any the epic feats game characters are known for performing several times a minute. With 1:1, you have two choices: dumb the game down severely or everybody dies, because no gamer will ever, for example, be as good with a sword as Link needs to be.

Better still, though, is to combine the abstraction which was the strength of buttons with the immersion that motion provides: gesture-based control, or as I prefer to call it, expressive motion control. Ultimately, this is what most of the people clamoring for 1:1 really want -Do What I Mean, not Do As I Do- but are mistaken in thinking that 1:1 will actually provide. The Wii Remote is more than capable of handling this even without WM+. It just requires a little developer effort.

Apple looking at EA?

[Phroggy]

I was about to dismiss it as unsubstantiated speculation, but I just saw an article claiming that Apple may want to acquire EA. That would fit in VERY nicely with designing their own game console, which I imagine would replace AppleTV.

Wow. Apple buying Twitter would be silly, but Apple buying EA could totally change the landscape.

What the Shit

[hoooocheymomma]

You can patent "a single online store that sells games, media, and video"?????

Help me out here. How the hell is this something that needs to be patented? Selling shit at a store seems like a pretty easily conceived/implemented idea. I'm pretty sure Amazon is doing this already.

Microsoft already did it.

[SuiteSisterMary]

having your personal music integrated into a title,

Xbox had this. Xbox360 requires it.

a 'natural' gesture multitouch interface

Maybe.

and a single online store that sells games, media, and video.

Xbox Marketplace.

Overpriced and underpowered

[gnesterenko]

Just my prediction, going by all other Apple products, this Console will likely fetch a PS3 like price, will have, at best, Wii like capabilities, with the addition of iTunes/iPod integration. Considering my PC is hooked up to the same entertainment center as my Wii, a big YAWN from my end. I'm sure there's a casual gaming market out there that they can try to leech off, but honestly, I'd invest about zero dollars into this. Lets not forget that Apple is a company that has very basic at best gaming experience on their PCs, let alone their hand-helds - as opposed to Nintendo that has been game oriented for what 20 years now? More even? Good luck to apple and all. I will never get any mp3 player other then the iPod, but I would not touch their PCs/laptops with a 10 foot pole. Will keep an open mind about a console to give it a fair chance, but honestly, at this point, what the market needs is a PS3/Wii hybrid - computing/graphical power of a PS3 with the user-friendliness and fun/party factor of the Wii would destroy all competition. If Apple can do this, I'm sold. But as I've said, historically at least, Apple uses sub-par hardware which ultimately results in sub-par performance. If its priced high, it better have the graphical processing power of the PS3 or better and full HD output. But prove me wrong, Apple. I'd love to see real competition to the PS3 to force the prices down some, so I can actually justify purchasing one. "The views expressed here are mine and do not reflect the official opinion of my employer or the organization through which the Internet was accessed."

yipee!

[Anonymous Coward]

yippee more icrap from the masters of marketing!

well, you can put that with the others, where the sun don't shine.

transgaming vs directx? :P

[janopdm]

Boosting gaming on the iPhone (or a possible mediapad) makes sense because 1) it is the primary source of earnings for Apple, and 2) phones are getting good enough to work as handheld consoles. However, Apple lacks hardware or software expertise to go nuclear against XBox and DirectX, Wii, or Playstation with a new gaming console.

Not Teh Evel!!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Patents- only evil if Microsoft gets them.

Re:Not Teh Evel!!!!

[gbarules2999]

Trade one company for another - they're all out for blood.

Me, Me, Me

[KidPix]

The game plays my music! The hero has my face and looks just like me! The characters are saying things I recorded! It's my voice! Me! The game! Me!!

This article does a lot to hype up a non-existent niche that Apple may or may not be going into. Despite the author's tone, narcissistic gaming is not a revolution.

Thsi will not be a console

[Anonymous Coward]

It will more likely be an integrated machine with other devices, a VM that uses a PC's hardware to create a console like experience for the user, one that can be output to a TV or a monitor. Certainly it couldn't be bleeding console like the PS3 or the XBox 360 (at release), but it could easily match the capability of a Wii. It would provide Apple a stick to shake at the "You can't play games on a Mac!" whiners.

Low End Mac myth

[starglider29a]

http://cgi.ebay.com/APPLE-MAC-MINI-1-83ghz-INTEL-2gb-ram-80gb-Airport-BT_W0QQitemZ300312655183

This would SMOKE any $500 PC. And you can even install XP on it.

PC people will scour the web for a way to make a cheap computer work well, when they can find it in 2 minutes on eBay.

Re:Low End Mac myth

[Anonymous Coward]

Jesus h christ you have to be kidding me. Troll or not, that is the biggest piece of shit Ive seen in a while

Re:Low End Mac myth

[mjwx]

This would SMOKE any $500 PC. And you can even install XP on it.

PC people will scour the web for a way to make a cheap computer work well, when they can find it in 2 minutes on eBay.

USED, meh Lets compare new, I'm certain if I searched on Ebay I could find cheap windows boxes. I've bought HP Opteron servers for A$1000 at auctions before but to get them new with warranties it costs.

An outdated Apple Mac Mini with: 1.83 GHZ C2D, 1 GB RAM, 80GB HDD, Intel GMA 950. A$849.

from the same store:
A somewhat more recent Dell: 2.53 Ghz C2D, 2 GB RAM, Integrated Video, 250 GB HDD A$717

Or direct from Dell's web site today, an Insprion 530, most modern of the bunch: 2.53 GHz C2D, 2 GB RAM, 160 GB HDD, Intel X3100 GMA A$750.

And XP will work with all three of these. so you were saying about low end mac's? Even they have a markup. To get a near comptetaive mac Mini to the two Dell's you need to go to A$1050 or A$1400

But none of these even come close to being gaming PC's as they all have shared memory video cards. If you want a Mac with a semi decent video card you're looking at over A$2000 for an imac with a mid range ATI or Nvidia card, considering my gaming rig with a high end Geforce GTX 285 cost me A$2200 in total.

console name

[EvilToiletPaper]

I bet the console would be called 'iPlay'

What would be cool...

[Anonymous Coward]

Being able to continue my game from the console to the iPhone.

I play Doom3 on my Apple console, iGame.

I have to go (to a party, to work, you name it). Then I plug my iPhone / iPod / iWhatever, it downloads my current save of the game.

Then I can play Doom3 while going to work. It's with downgraded graphics but the whole world is still there (or at least the current level), and I can kick the ass of that damn boss because I didn't have time. I'll play the next level on the iGame with full graphics loaded.

I don't think people are looking at this correctly

[Anonymous Coward]

The Apple TV will become the gaming console and the iPod touch / iPhone will be the controls for it.

Yes I know the specs are not the greatest for the AppleTV but that will change with hardware updates.

Hokey Patents

[furby076]

having your personal music integrated into a title, a 'natural' gesture multitouch interface, and a single online store that sells games, media, and video."

Ok so first, didn't apple learn it's lesson already about trying to patent 'touchy-feely' terms? What the hell does "'natural' gesture multitouch interface" mean? Touchin my PS3 button feels natural. I just move my finger over the button. It's not a touch screen, but that is the byproduct of my TV not being touch-screen...unless they are trying to do stuff via the same technology in the Tom Cruise movie Minority Report

Second: Single online store that sells games, media & movie? I am pretty sure xbox and ps3 already do that. So does amazon. Hello...prior art?

I hate bad patents.

I thought it said

[iMac Were]

Apple are deflowering a gay man's cornhole? Is that news?

one way to get more games written...

[je ne sais quoi]

The only trick would be convincing game developers to write anything for a platform with fewer users.

You should definitely read this then. The rumor on the street is that Apple might buy EA. Now, I know better than to listen to these types of rumors, but if that did happen, they would suddenly have a lot of games being written for them. Who knows if this is true or not, but it is makes a hell of a lot more sense than Apple buying Twitter of all things.

Re:one way to get more games written...

[Anonymous Coward]

while it may be all smoke and mirrors, rumores and conjecture, that would be SICK. it would signify a _HUGE_ shift in the home PC market and the home entertainment industry as a whole. With their estimated nearly $30Bn in cash they could definitly afford to do it. and it would make a good fit. The cherry on top is that itunes content delivery could help EA compete with valve

Re:one way to get more games written...

[bizwriter]

But then, Apple's also supposed to be buying Twitter and who knows what else? I don't think they'd want to get that close to a business so tied to PCs.

Don't forget Vib Ribbon

[clickety6]

Vib Ribbon On the original playstation allowed you to put your own music CD in the console and the game play would change depending upon the CD being played.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vib_Ribbon

It's called an iPhone

[Anonymous Coward]

They aren't going to release a game device... they ALREADY released the game device: It's called an iPhone. DUH

The name has just been leaked...

[Anonymous Coward]

It's called the iWin.

Re:The name has just been leaked...

[Orion Blastar]

Already taken IWin.com is a search engine and game show all in one.

The Apple iBox/iGame?

[Orion Blastar]

What name is Apple going to use?

Will it be iPhone based or iMac based?

Will they just modify the AppleTV and make it the AppleConsole?

I have been advocating this for years

[bluefoxlucid]

Now, there are some possible details about how a combined media/game console might work,

Most recently, I wrote this. Of course, the idea is as old as... well, the hardware.

How about voice control?

[Zero return]

Fair enough point about the lack of buttons, but what if Apple added some voice control via the iPhone or whatever?

That could be fun!

Prior Art Much?

[Gilesx]

> Having your personal music integrated into a title

Audiosurf immediately springs to mind

> a 'natural' gesture multitouch interface

Erm.... Wii anyone?

> a single online store that sells games, media, and video

Blimey! How did they ever come up with that one? Maybe by looking at the same thing on either the PS3 or Xbox 360.....

Newton - iPhone

[MrMista_B]

I don't know about that. Past failure has never seemed to concern Apple or more specifically, Jobs.

Remember the Newton? Did okay for awhile, then got destroyed by the PalmPilot and others.

Plus, gotta remember, right now, Apple is WEALTHY. They can afford to take a loss on selling something with decent gaming specs at a loss, and make all the money back with the online store part.

Apple does not say it is good, say it is mandatory

[SuperKendall]

Apple is very inconsistent in its public stance on DRM. They say it is bad for music, but good for movies and TV shows.

Really. Please link to something where Apple has said that.

The only things I've ever read say Apple has said they need DRM around video to satisfy content providers. Unlike music Apple just does not have enough market share in distribution to dictate terms around how they would like to do things, so the DRM remains.

Do not forget the first videos on iTunes were DRM free music videos... Apple prefers DRM free content if they can have it, but no major content provider would allow it! And without someone with the power Apple had over music studios, I'm not sure it will ever happen.

You are about to learn a more valuable lesson

[SuperKendall]

You guys are about to learn what I learned 10 years ago: Discrete devices work best.

That is true, and that is what geeks prefer. I preferred that myself once.

But you are soon to learn a more powerful truth. That the general populace prefers convergence when it works. "Normal" people (and I use that term neutrally, not implying anything wrong with being abnormal!) do not want to have two or three devices to charge if possible. These people will happily sacrifice a few things to carry less and not become The Batman.

The cycle is that you have a dedicated device until the general devices get powerful enough to absorb the specific.

This is true of course primarily in the mobile space, for fixed location devices I think people will generally either prefer or have neutral preferences on quality devices that do one thing well (like using a receiver vs. having an all-in-one entertainment system). But when carrying stuff space and weight are all premiums that people will sacrifice a lot to improve - not just true in electronics ether, just look at hiking gear...

Re:You are about to learn a more valuable lesson

[mjwx]

But you are soon to learn a more powerful truth. That the general populace prefers convergence when it works. "Normal" people (and I use that term neutrally, not implying anything wrong with being abnormal!) do not want to have two or three devices to charge if possible.

Actually mundanes are split on this issue too. Many mundanes operate under the "do one thing and do it well" philosophy for devices but few have caught on to buying products that conform to standards, for example my MP3 player, Camera, Phone and Portable HDD utilise the same USB A Mini connector so when I travel I only take 1 cord.

Re:You are about to learn a more valuable lesson

[kklein]

Yeah... I didn't want anything to do with the dinky little 16GB on my iPhone for music. I carried an 80GB iPod, which was almost out of space.

My iPod now lives at work. Out and about, I only listen to the iPhone.

Even other geeks get sick of schlepping a lot of junk around all the time.

Re:Apple does not say it is good, say it is mandat

[DinDaddy]

"When asked during the EMI conference call about the potential of lifting DRM from video, Jobs said: "Video is pretty different from music right now because the video industry does not distribute 90 percent of their content DRM free. Never has. So I think they are in a pretty different situation and I wouldn't hold it to a parallel at all."

http://pcworld.about.com/od/copyright/Jobs-unlikely-to-push-for-lift.htm

So he did not say it is"good" for movies, but this quote is almost certainly what the GP is thinking of.

And repeats what I said

[SuperKendall]

Video is pretty different from music right now because the video industry does not distribute 90 percent of their content DRM free. Never has. So I think they are in a pretty different situation and I wouldn't hold it to a parallel at all.

That's what I said before. Apple never said DRM was good, and they aren't there - they basically are saying the content industry demands it because they are used to it. Which is pretty much what I said, that content providers demand DRM. No DRM, no content - thus not good, but necessary to proceed.

My thoughts about Apple not being able to force content providers to drop DRM were more about tactical issues than anything Apple said either way.

Nintendo isn't open

[tepples]

I could definitely see myself buying one if they do come out, especially if I could easily program my own games for it.

The DSi has a DSware store like the WiiWare store.

To become an authorized developer for any Nintendo platform, you still need a corporation ("full legal and incorporated company name"), a separate office ("Home offices are not considered secure locations."), and a track record ("relevant game industry experience"). The DSi Shop doesn't change this. These requirements, along with Nintendo's successful crackdown on Wii homebrew through Wii Menu 4.0 (not jailbroken in over a month) and reports of inflated prices charged to homebrew users for out-of-warranty service (source: hackmii.com), make the iPhone and XNA business models seem positively open by comparison.

What I want...

[elistan]

Gaming console + Apple TV + DVR + IPTV receiver (eg, for use with AT&T U-Verse) + Mac Mini = my ideal living room home entertainment convergence box.
I wonder if Apple could leverage its relationship with AT&T on the iPhone to further such a concept. (At least on the IPTV part...)

Apple gaming tradition

[brkello]

So it will be twice expensive as a PS3 and have 1/8th of the game library? (kidding!)

Hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

So what we Have is equivalent to a PS3 running linux?