These are people doing a job. . . . That's like targeting cops just because they're cops.
So were the Stasi.
The Stasi weren't just doing their job, and they weren't just cops.
The Stasi motto was "Schild und Schwert der Partei" (Shield and Sword of the Party),
that is the ruling Socialist Unity Party of Germany (SED) -- Stasi
The Stasi secret police were in effect Communist activists suppressing speech, religion, political opposition, political organization, and anything else that was deemed opposition to the communist one-party regime. They were an instrument of totalitarian rule.
No surprises there. The University of Wisconsin has long been a center of "progressive" activism. That they would be hostile to American national security organizations is to be expected.
Snowden admitted what he is doing. There is no question about it.
Snowden would get a fair trail. The outcome isn't predetermined, but reasonably predictable since he has admitted what he is doing, which is a serious crime.
For the crimes that Snowden has admitted, the only place where you would expect him to be offered refuge would be enemy nations. Although there are many Europeans that hate the US, and its system of free enterprise, it would be quite exceptional for a European government to offer Snowden refuge.
In a stunning and candid critique of its chief competitor, Airbus has crafted a comprehensive competitive analysis that touches on nearly every aspect of the troubled 787 programme gleaned from Boeing proprietary data and an embedded network of sources from inside the Dreamliner's global supply chain.
Competitive intelligence is a standard practice in the aerospace industry, but the information revealed in the Airbus analysis reveals a scope and specificity of the data collected.
The document includes what appear to be seven slides labelled BOEING PROPRIETARY with a format style used in Boeing presentations, including two that appear to have been photocopied, raising questions about the methods and sources the European consortium utilizes to collect its data.
Airbus claims the presentation, as well as its competitive intelligence gathering methods, fully comply with all laws. Though when approached about how the information was gathered, Airbus declined to address it specifically, suggesting that a lot of data labelled BOEING PROPRIETARY is freely available online. Airbus added that not all documents labelled BOEING PROPRIETARY are in fact proprietary. A spokesman emphasized that Airbus closely watches the market to draw its own conclusions, as do its competitors.
A search engine query for "Boeing Proprietary PPT" did not yield the slides in question.
The Boeing Co. was among the targets of a French government plan for a massive spying effort to learn U.S. technological secrets and trade strategies, according to classified documents.
The plan targeted 49 high-tech companies, 24 financial institutions and six U.S. government agencies with important roles in international trade, the French documents show.
The plan focused on research breakthroughs and marketing strategies of leading-edge U.S. aerospace and defense contractors that compete directly with French firms.
The French also sought advance knowledge of the bargaining positions of American negotiators in trade talks involving France. The 21-page assignment sheet, prepared by the French equivalent of the Central Intelligence Agency, is considered authentic by senior U.S. experts.
That's right, my continental friends, we have spied on you because you bribe. Your companies' products are often more costly, less technically advanced or both, than your American competitors'. As a result you bribe a lot. So complicit are your governments that in several European countries bribes still are tax-deductible.
When we have caught you at it, you might be interested, we haven't said a word to the U.S. companies in the competition. Instead we go to the government you're bribing and tell its officials that we don't take kindly to such corruption. They often respond by giving the most meritorious bid (sometimes American, sometimes not) all or part of the contract. This upsets you, and sometimes creates recriminations between your bribers and the other country's bribees, and this occasionally becomes a public scandal....
Why do you bribe? It's not because your companies are inherently more corrupt. Nor is it because you are inherently less talented at technology. It is because your economic patron saint is still Jean Baptiste Colbert, whereas ours is Adam Smith. In spite of a few recent reforms, your governments largely still dominate your economies, so you have much greater difficulty than we in innovating, encouragin
What did he potentially have access to that's so damning to the government that it's strong-arming the entire world over the possibility that he could release it?
A conscience.
His conscience didn't enter into it. He took the NSA job with the intent to steal their secrets. So the real answer is:
Misguided values, four laptops of top secret data from the NSA, reportedly including lists of US agents and many other highly sensitive items.
His revelations might very well end up crippling US intelligence gathering.
How do we hold Snowden responsible if it ends up killings thousands of people, or tens of thousands?
The Germans didn't know that the Enigma code machine had been broken, and if it didn't cost them the war, it significantly shortened it.
John Walker gave the Soviets the ability to read US Navy classified communications. That might have very well resulted in the defeat and destruction of the US fleet in a war with the Soviet Union.
What will Snowden cost the US, Europe, and the world?
If you think the USAF could prevent European military forces from shooting down a boeing passenger jet over European air space then you're frankly stupid.
If you think European military forces either would or should shoot down US Air Force 1, you are well into the territory of political cranks.
Sadly, in America there does seem to be a growing number of people who have no issue with arresting protesters, dissenters and other people who speak against the status quo.
It isn't the speech that gets them into trouble, it is the rioting, destruction of property, trespassing, vandalism, random acts of violence, and other nonsense.
Who are the people arrested for writing opinion pieces for the newspapers? Who are the people arrested for writing an ordinary protest letter to their congressman? Who was imprisoned for writing anti-Bush books? Anti-Obama books?
Americans remain free to protest, not free to riot.
Guantanamo is a prisoner of war camp that has held well under 1,000 people in total, ever.
Killing people in war, even with drones, is permitted. Killing citizens of your nation that have taken up arms against it during war is permitted.
Here is a representation of Americans being shot down en mass lawfully by the US federal government without arrest, charges, trial, or conviction. American citizens allied with or fighting with Al Qaida are in the same position as the people in that representation. It is a serious thing to take up arms against your country, and the consequences may be fatal.
It looks like a couple hundred people world-wide were subjected to rendition. It appears none were from within the US. The stated policy was that the US asked the nation receiving the prisoner that torture should not be used. For some of those nations it would have been a hard habit to break.
Well it was really only ever truly free for people who were not of African descent. If your ancestors were from Africa (in the recent past) then the US had no freedom at all.
That is false. Maybe you heard that the US used to be split into states with slavery and states without slavery? It led to a big deal called the Civil War? And slaves could certainly be freed, even in slave states. And there were white slaves as well.
Everyone is doing it. It must be ok then... so move along, "don't rock the boat - keep your head down Just another fool in the crowd"...
/sarcasm
I have little doubt that each country has a specific legal regime that enables their intelligence agencies to engage in their work in a manner that is lawful to their own country. As is repeatedly pointed out on Slashdot, Europeans are not under American law. By the same token, Americans are not under European law. And Germans are not under British law. The French are not under Swedish law...... Feel free to mentally complete the combinatorial exercise.
I'm not sure why you would think it would require a European military base in the US for any particular European nation to engage in spying in the US. Europeans tend to be able to travel rather freely to the US. Many emigrate to the US. There is considerable commerce. That alone is plenty of opportunity.
Boycotts can easily turn into trade wars. Words do have specific meanings, but it is helpful when you apply them with insight. You didn't manage that. Whose shill are you?
Can US based technologies be trusted knowing the things we know? I'm not asking if there are "better alternatives." I'm asking if, knowing what we know today, you have 100% trust in US technology products.
The better question is, "Can you completely trust anybody's products?" Well, can you? No engineer put in their own backdoor? No company was infiltrated? No company outsourced to another firm that put in some "insurance" they would be paid? That is just a start. Practically every objection you have applies to European products as well as American products.
As for better alternatives? There are. Free alternatives. The REAL problem is the pain of transition. And seriously. Pain of transition pales in comparison to the pain of other things to come while we use the tainted and compromised products like confused addicts.
Linux and the BSDs are an adequate substitute for most brands of commercial Unix on certain hardware, for most types of work. But there are limits to free software. MySQL is not an adequate substitute for Oracle and its suite of products for high end heavy production use. You're kidding yourself if you believe that, but at least there is something to kid yourself with. When it comes to applications, there isn't much. There isn't a free substitute that I know of for Oracle e-Business suite, for example. In many cases where a free software alternative exists, it might exist for the primary application, but not for the many add-ons and industry of supporting products that extend and amplify the power of an application. There is a certain strain of ideological belief in the community of free / open enthusiasts that they will develop an adequate alternative implementation of everything commercial. This is nonsense.
Probably one of the quicker ways for Europe to lose its competitiveness compared to the rest of the would be to go down some of the paths being mentioned here today. Do what you want, do what you must, but you are unlikely to avoid the consequences of a bad decision in the long run.
There seem to be some problems with your theory. NATO membership has expanded significantly since 1991, not contracted. European nations continue to shortchange defense spending, and in many cases the problem is growing worse, not better. Also, you may not be looking at a big enough map to determine the threats against Europe. Europe's anti-missile defense is provided by the US. The American military a threat to Europe? I think you are stuck in the fever swamp.
That is nonsense. Most European nations are part of NATO and allied with each other, including the US and Canada. If all of Europe were vassal states to the US this wouldn't be an issue, nor would many other things. The fact of the matter is that Europe has long been dependent on the US for filling the gap in Europe's defenses since European nations for the most part don't meet the level of defense spending agreed to by treaty.
Another wonderful example. A massive trade war will work out just fine for everybody. And think of how smooth all of the massive IT transitions will go across Europe. Well, remember to send your annual thank you cards to Putin for the natural gas, and hope you stay on friendly terms with Russia while and after they finish rearming. You know they are rehabilitating Stalin, right?
Slashdot Mirror
These are people doing a job. . . . That's like targeting cops just because they're cops.
So were the Stasi.
The Stasi weren't just doing their job, and they weren't just cops.
The Stasi motto was "Schild und Schwert der Partei" (Shield and Sword of the Party),
that is the ruling Socialist Unity Party of Germany (SED) -- Stasi
The Stasi secret police were in effect Communist activists suppressing speech, religion, political opposition, political organization, and anything else that was deemed opposition to the communist one-party regime. They were an instrument of totalitarian rule.
No surprises there. The University of Wisconsin has long been a center of "progressive" activism. That they would be hostile to American national security organizations is to be expected.
I wonder if she made a special trip to be there?
Madiha R. Tahir is a freelance journalist based in Pakistan.
Snowden admitted what he is doing. There is no question about it.
Snowden would get a fair trail. The outcome isn't predetermined, but reasonably predictable since he has admitted what he is doing, which is a serious crime.
For the crimes that Snowden has admitted, the only place where you would expect him to be offered refuge would be enemy nations. Although there are many Europeans that hate the US, and its system of free enterprise, it would be quite exceptional for a European government to offer Snowden refuge.
Do you have a citation on that? I did a little looking, but found some unexpected things instead.
Exclusive: Airbus Dreamliner Dossier Revealed
In a stunning and candid critique of its chief competitor, Airbus has crafted a comprehensive competitive analysis that touches on nearly every aspect of the troubled 787 programme gleaned from Boeing proprietary data and an embedded network of sources from inside the Dreamliner's global supply chain.
Competitive intelligence is a standard practice in the aerospace industry, but the information revealed in the Airbus analysis reveals a scope and specificity of the data collected.
The document includes what appear to be seven slides labelled BOEING PROPRIETARY with a format style used in Boeing presentations, including two that appear to have been photocopied, raising questions about the methods and sources the European consortium utilizes to collect its data.
Airbus claims the presentation, as well as its competitive intelligence gathering methods, fully comply with all laws. Though when approached about how the information was gathered, Airbus declined to address it specifically, suggesting that a lot of data labelled BOEING PROPRIETARY is freely available online. Airbus added that not all documents labelled BOEING PROPRIETARY are in fact proprietary. A spokesman emphasized that Airbus closely watches the market to draw its own conclusions, as do its competitors.
A search engine query for "Boeing Proprietary PPT" did not yield the slides in question.
Boeing Called A Target Of French Spy Effort
The Boeing Co. was among the targets of a French government plan for a massive spying effort to learn U.S. technological secrets and trade strategies, according to classified documents.
The plan targeted 49 high-tech companies, 24 financial institutions and six U.S. government agencies with important roles in international trade, the French documents show.
The plan focused on research breakthroughs and marketing strategies of leading-edge U.S. aerospace and defense contractors that compete directly with French firms.
The French also sought advance knowledge of the bargaining positions of American negotiators in trade talks involving France. The 21-page assignment sheet, prepared by the French equivalent of the Central Intelligence Agency, is considered authentic by senior U.S. experts.
Why We Spy on Our Allies
That's right, my continental friends, we have spied on you because you bribe. Your companies' products are often more costly, less technically advanced or both, than your American competitors'. As a result you bribe a lot. So complicit are your governments that in several European countries bribes still are tax-deductible.
When we have caught you at it, you might be interested, we haven't said a word to the U.S. companies in the competition. Instead we go to the government you're bribing and tell its officials that we don't take kindly to such corruption. They often respond by giving the most meritorious bid (sometimes American, sometimes not) all or part of the contract. This upsets you, and sometimes creates recriminations between your bribers and the other country's bribees, and this occasionally becomes a public scandal. ...
Why do you bribe? It's not because your companies are inherently more corrupt. Nor is it because you are inherently less talented at technology. It is because your economic patron saint is still Jean Baptiste Colbert, whereas ours is Adam Smith. In spite of a few recent reforms, your governments largely still dominate your economies, so you have much greater difficulty than we in innovating, encouragin
The U.S. got caught because they were greedy for data and careless with it, now they have to pay the piper.
The US wasn't "caught." Edward Snowden took a job with an NSA contractor with the intent of stealing and leaking classified NSA documents.
A number of EU countries are doing the same things the NSA is doing.
What did he potentially have access to that's so damning to the government that it's strong-arming the entire world over the possibility that he could release it?
A conscience.
His conscience didn't enter into it. He took the NSA job with the intent to steal their secrets. So the real answer is:
Misguided values, four laptops of top secret data from the NSA, reportedly including lists of US agents and many other highly sensitive items.
His revelations might very well end up crippling US intelligence gathering.
How do we hold Snowden responsible if it ends up killings thousands of people, or tens of thousands?
The Germans didn't know that the Enigma code machine had been broken, and if it didn't cost them the war, it significantly shortened it.
John Walker gave the Soviets the ability to read US Navy classified communications. That might have very well resulted in the defeat and destruction of the US fleet in a war with the Soviet Union.
What will Snowden cost the US, Europe, and the world?
If you think the USAF could prevent European military forces from shooting down a boeing passenger jet over European air space then you're frankly stupid.
If you think European military forces either would or should shoot down US Air Force 1, you are well into the territory of political cranks.
Sadly, in America there does seem to be a growing number of people who have no issue with arresting protesters, dissenters and other people who speak against the status quo.
It isn't the speech that gets them into trouble, it is the rioting, destruction of property, trespassing, vandalism, random acts of violence, and other nonsense.
Who are the people arrested for writing opinion pieces for the newspapers? Who are the people arrested for writing an ordinary protest letter to their congressman? Who was imprisoned for writing anti-Bush books? Anti-Obama books?
Americans remain free to protest, not free to riot.
Non-Americans complain bitterly when they think they are being subjected to American law, and also when they don't have its protection.
Team America to police the World but who will police America?
Your key insight on the world comes from a puppet show?
There are about 200 sovereign nations on the planet, the US is one of them.
The medal is obviously for his service as commander of the ship for the two year period, not for shooting down the plane.
you eliminate the threat of a progressive force in the electorate, which appeared on the threshold of revolution, 35 years ago.
You think the United States was on the edge of a race based revolution 1978?
Absolute rubbish. Is the only source of information you have Canadian loony left socialist publications?
You should really consider reading from a wider range of material.
At the rate the United States Government is going, I expect people that speak out to start disappearing...
For ordinary political speech? Rubbish. Nonsense. There is no indication that anything like that is happening, or will happen.
If you have some evidence, I would love to see it.
Guantanamo is a prisoner of war camp that has held well under 1,000 people in total, ever.
Killing people in war, even with drones, is permitted. Killing citizens of your nation that have taken up arms against it during war is permitted.
Here is a representation of Americans being shot down en mass lawfully by the US federal government without arrest, charges, trial, or conviction. American citizens allied with or fighting with Al Qaida are in the same position as the people in that representation. It is a serious thing to take up arms against your country, and the consequences may be fatal.
It looks like a couple hundred people world-wide were subjected to rendition. It appears none were from within the US. The stated policy was that the US asked the nation receiving the prisoner that torture should not be used. For some of those nations it would have been a hard habit to break.
Well it was really only ever truly free for people who were not of African descent. If your ancestors were from Africa (in the recent past) then the US had no freedom at all.
That is false. Maybe you heard that the US used to be split into states with slavery and states without slavery? It led to a big deal called the Civil War? And slaves could certainly be freed, even in slave states. And there were white slaves as well.
Six inconvenient truths about the U.S. and slavery
Everyone is doing it. It must be ok then... so move along, "don't rock the boat - keep your head down Just another fool in the crowd"...
/sarcasm
I have little doubt that each country has a specific legal regime that enables their intelligence agencies to engage in their work in a manner that is lawful to their own country. As is repeatedly pointed out on Slashdot, Europeans are not under American law. By the same token, Americans are not under European law. And Germans are not under British law. The French are not under Swedish law. ..... Feel free to mentally complete the combinatorial exercise.
I'm not sure why you would think it would require a European military base in the US for any particular European nation to engage in spying in the US. Europeans tend to be able to travel rather freely to the US. Many emigrate to the US. There is considerable commerce. That alone is plenty of opportunity.
Boycotts can easily turn into trade wars. Words do have specific meanings, but it is helpful when you apply them with insight. You didn't manage that. Whose shill are you?
You do know that they are rebuilding, right? And significantly increasing their military budget? It isn't 1992 anymore.
Can US based technologies be trusted knowing the things we know? I'm not asking if there are "better alternatives." I'm asking if, knowing what we know today, you have 100% trust in US technology products.
The better question is, "Can you completely trust anybody's products?" Well, can you? No engineer put in their own backdoor? No company was infiltrated? No company outsourced to another firm that put in some "insurance" they would be paid? That is just a start. Practically every objection you have applies to European products as well as American products.
As for better alternatives? There are. Free alternatives. The REAL problem is the pain of transition. And seriously. Pain of transition pales in comparison to the pain of other things to come while we use the tainted and compromised products like confused addicts.
Linux and the BSDs are an adequate substitute for most brands of commercial Unix on certain hardware, for most types of work. But there are limits to free software. MySQL is not an adequate substitute for Oracle and its suite of products for high end heavy production use. You're kidding yourself if you believe that, but at least there is something to kid yourself with. When it comes to applications, there isn't much. There isn't a free substitute that I know of for Oracle e-Business suite, for example. In many cases where a free software alternative exists, it might exist for the primary application, but not for the many add-ons and industry of supporting products that extend and amplify the power of an application. There is a certain strain of ideological belief in the community of free / open enthusiasts that they will develop an adequate alternative implementation of everything commercial. This is nonsense.
Probably one of the quicker ways for Europe to lose its competitiveness compared to the rest of the would be to go down some of the paths being mentioned here today. Do what you want, do what you must, but you are unlikely to avoid the consequences of a bad decision in the long run.
Because there are no advantages to mutual defense treaties?
There seem to be some problems with your theory. NATO membership has expanded significantly since 1991, not contracted. European nations continue to shortchange defense spending, and in many cases the problem is growing worse, not better. Also, you may not be looking at a big enough map to determine the threats against Europe. Europe's anti-missile defense is provided by the US. The American military a threat to Europe? I think you are stuck in the fever swamp.
OK, now you're just sounding stupid
Sometimes when something sounds stupid to you it means that you are the one that is uninformed.
Fareed Zakaria GPS : Last Look: Russia's Rehabilitation of Stalin
Rehabilitating Joseph Stalin
That is nonsense. Most European nations are part of NATO and allied with each other, including the US and Canada. If all of Europe were vassal states to the US this wouldn't be an issue, nor would many other things. The fact of the matter is that Europe has long been dependent on the US for filling the gap in Europe's defenses since European nations for the most part don't meet the level of defense spending agreed to by treaty.
Another wonderful example. A massive trade war will work out just fine for everybody. And think of how smooth all of the massive IT transitions will go across Europe. Well, remember to send your annual thank you cards to Putin for the natural gas, and hope you stay on friendly terms with Russia while and after they finish rearming. You know they are rehabilitating Stalin, right?