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EU To Vote On Suspension of Data Sharing With US
New submitter badzilla writes with a story from ZDnet that says a vote is scheduled in the European Parliament for today, U.S. Independence Day, on "whether existing data sharing agreements between the two continents should be suspended, following allegations that U.S. intelligence spied on EU citizens." One interesting scenario outlined by the article is that it may disrupt air travel between the U.S. and EU: "In the resolution, submitted to the Parliament on Tuesday, more than two-dozen politicians from a range of political parties call the spying 'a serious violation of the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations,' and call on the suspension of the Passenger Name Records (PNR) system. Prior to leaving the airport, airlines must make passenger data available to the U.S. Names, dates of birth, addresses, credit or debit card details and seat numbers are among the data — though critics say the information has never helped catch a suspected criminal or terrorist before. Should the PNR system be suspended, it could result in the suspension of flights to the U.S. from European member states."
Don't blame the messenger.
The root of the problem are the far reaching spying activities of the NSA, not the fact that somebody blew the whistle.
The British GCHQ taps fibre connections, collects data on EU citizens and shares it with US intelligence services. In response the EU wants to stop sharing information on passenger records for people flying between the EU and the USA. .... Well I suppose its easier than suggesting that EU governments should not spy on its citizens.
The equivalent of recalling an ambassador for the "intelligence" community.
"whether existing data sharing agreements between the two continents"
I wasn't aware that the EU is a continent. So far I thought it's just an organization of some 20 states from one continent, leaving out a few other states from the same continent.
And the USA isn't a continent either: Canada would likely object, and Hawaii might, too.
Don't kid yourself about European nations engaging in spying as well, including inside the US and their own neighbors.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
They knew it all along... This "pause" is to show Europeans they still have the power over the government so please don't rebel!
Europe is US's bitch.
Indeed. All those secret things the governments have been doing are all getting exposed and the people aren't prepared and processed yet. You know, disarmed, pacified, collected into groups, camps, re-educaiton facilities and the like?
I call for MORE insiders to expose what's going on.
They want to call this treason? They want to call it espionage? Treason and espionage is precisely what they are doing.
Well, it looks like Snowden's actions continue to bear fruit in harming both the US and its allies.
Bull-fucking-shit.
Oh, unless you mean that stopping them from pulling illegal stunts is harm, in which case, fuck you.
What caused harm was the US and UK doing illegal stuff. Do not confuse the messenger with the message.
As a citizen of the UK and therefore EU, I assert that these leaks did good, not harm. How can bringing criminals to account be considered "harmful". How on earth can stopping a massive US over reach in wanting to pile the old haystack every higher with data on EU citizens be considered "harm"?
SJW n. One who posts facts.
It's cute to see Swede^H^H^H^H^H the EU pretend it has balls and stand up to the Reich^H^H^H^H^H United States. ;)
Face it, guys; the Fascists have already got their One World Government; they've even given it a warm and fuzzy Progressive/Socialist facade that everytbody on both sides of the ocean (whether they love it or hate it) has bought hook, line and sinker.
The US harmed itself with it's egregious spying.
All Snowden did is expose the bullshit. He didn't cause the bullshit. That's squarely on the backs of the NSA and the US government's "secret" legislation.
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
So it's not harmless solely because the US is getting called out on it's international bullshit after it has been revealed?
Not like this. Only the US and its technology companies have the presense and ubiquity to pull something off at this level and scale.
These are reasons to dump Microsoft and Cisco ASAP. Additionally, to begin looking much more carefully at all US products including cars and aircraft. They should all be treated with suspicion at this point.
They want to call this treason? They want to call it espionage? Treason and espionage is precisely what they are doing.
Espionage? Probably, although when it's being done with the full knowledge of the other government using that term is a bit of a stretch.
Treason? Under US law no it's not. Our Constitution defines Treason very specifically as giving aid or shelter to an Enemy. You might not like it, it might violate our Constitution or our laws, but those things aren't enough to be considered Treason.
Or in other words, if you're going to call any possible Constitutional violation "treason", then you're violating the Constitution's definition of Treason and therefore guilty of it yourself.
Yeah, like this is going to happen. The most affected airlines would be US owned ones. Do you think they will let their trained terriers in the US Govt. allow that? Can you calculate the odds between zero and none?
Don't kid yourself about European nations engaging in spying as well, including inside the US and their own neighbors.
Bring out the proof then.
This isn't the first time that the US has been caught with this kind of shit and there have been several cases where the US has used illegally gathered information to get favorable deals during business negotiations rather than to just use it for national security issues.
I suspect that you only can find information of French being in the same club and even then only as a response to shit the US spies did against them.
I suppose the US could start exposing the spying of various European countries occurring in the US as a "teachable moment." There is plenty of it going on.
Is there? My impression was always that the balance of power in these matters rested very firmly with the US - I'd be quite surprised to hear about a German or Italian spy ring within the US. It's been that way since WW2, there are no European military bases within the USA. However that balance may now begin to shift as trust fades in a way nobody can ignore.
It's not Snowden's action, it's NSA's action..or Obama, Bush.. whoever approved this.
Also, this will not split US and Europe. Europeans where never really in-love with you Americans anyway, but common roots, religion(you would think it doesn't matter...) and.. economy(money) is keeping US and Europe.. close. Economic reasons for the most part.
Finally.. I don't think that Europe wasn't aware of this happening.
We spy on them, they spy on us.. Everyone spies on everyone else, get real.
"Whoever", not "whomever". If you want to look like an illiterate idiot, don't try to outdo yourself.
It's not "nations" that are doing the spying. Overwhelming majority of a nation is not spying on anyone. Governments are doing the spying, nations are the victims of spying. What they should do is place an information embargo on each other's spying asses and leave the rest of both nations out of it. I do not agree to be dragged into this mess.
Lord, I can't tell if this was good troll or not. But leaving that kind of reasoning unchallenged might let unsubtle people accept it as a thought, a "meme", without even realizing it.
So I'll say "Yes, and the rape reports will continue to interfere with the college's NCAA rating and the ability of the fraternities to get the *best* pledges from the wealthiest alumni families. And having their sexcapade victims believed will reduce the manly bonding among the teams and frat houses." And if you don't think that disciplinary committees and college boards don't think this way, then you've never been involved in the closed door meetings. I'm in the midst of this kind of disciplinary action right now in a non-profit organization, and it is *nasty*. I'm saying "if we don't protect the victims of abuse, we don't deserve to have members".
As a citizen of a country that has engaged in, and been caught engaging in this kind of behavior, I'm disgusted at it. If we want a rule of law, and freedom of speech and belief, it has to begin with our own policies. And it's clear that just like the "war on drugs" and every other "war on [political cause]" campaign, it's being used to justify all sorts of governmental abuse and political manipulation at odds with our published, core values. I'm not sure anyone on Slashdot can remember prohibition, but a few of us can remember the anti-Communism campaigns of the 50's and 60's, and far more of us remember the "war on drugs" and its resulting racial division and huge number of people in prison.
This is just the next round of the same policies.
Evidently, the US doesn't need the data sharing agreements. They seem to be pretty good at getting the data they want with or without any agreements.
They aren't pissed off about the spying and our privacy being violated; they're pissed off that someone else is doing it.
We are far to extended anyway and need to be more of an isolationist. AND secure that damned border while we are at it.
I second that. There is no harm here, only good. It is long overdue that the EU starts crawling out of the American arse. The only EU country that is an ally to the USA is the UK. Everyone else are more like vassals.
"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
Remind them the EU is the largest economy in the world and that we will are morally more entitled to set the rules for the democratic world. Not them, not anymore.
yes, but to deal with that problem would be too difficult for most, so it's easier to blame a whistleblower.
If you can read this, it means that I bothered to log in.
The US needs a constitutional amendment guaranteeing the right to privacy.
Nevermind the NSA conspiracy theories, the corps are already doing it almost everything and what they aren't doing the cops are.
Nothing else can stop the march of technology that can and is wholesale systematically slaughtering our privacy. Technology makes it possible to systematically monitor your every move from the time you leave your house to the time return and every interaction you make when you go online, every phone call, instant message, email and mailed letter.
Frankly I can't blame the Euro's for withholding the data, we have jack for data privacy protection, nevermind the whole NSA bit. Almost none of our data has to be encrypted and our standards for protecting data are a joke. We collect everything, dispose of almost nothing and sell or rent it all to the highest bidder. sigh...
If you are the criminal, you certainly consider it harmful.
Don't blame the messenger.
The root of the problem are the far reaching spying activities of the NSA, not the fact that somebody blew the whistle.
I wonder how many of the politicians (domestic & foreign) who are demanding investigations based on his revelations are stepping up to the plate and trying to keep him out of prison.
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
Other countries would be monitoring communications in just the same way if they had the opportunity to do so...
By making use of and becoming dependent on US products and US services you walked right into it, and the US government doesn't even pretend to offer any rights to foreigners located outside its borders. The constitution is for US citizens.
If you don't like being spied on by the US government, don't use products from companies under their jurisdiction.
http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
Don't kid yourself about European nations engaging in spying as well, including inside the US and their own neighbors.
for most european countries citizens it wouldn't be even legal to be spying on other countries(to do espionage abroad). for NSA faculty it's legal.
so a lot of the intelligence - which isn't a lot at all - we gather is by trading information with others.
however, this isn't about even that kind of information trading. this is just about the EU providing things like flight passenger lists for european flights to americans, providing our bank statements to americans.. that was done pretty much just as goodwill for the "war on terror" effort. now it's getting obvious and over the table that the data isn't being kept with any sanctity - that once the data goes to usa they don't give a fuck about where it came from since it's from outside the usa they think they can do anything with it.
so yeah, fuck off. abusing privileges tends to end up in losing them. if you can't be bothered to put on any legal rules on access to the data even then why the fuck should we be providing you with all our data which could be used among other things to manipulate stock markets? why?
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
New polls show the majority of Americans now think the NSA went too far, so no, not US and its allies, an out of control General who lied to Congress and the EU and kept all of the illegal stuff he was up to secret from everyone, including the legislative branch who WERE LIED TO.
Snowden let Americans find out what the lying toerag was up to, he also let EU see what the lying toerag was up to.
If they choose to end the data sharing agreement I will feel safer in Europe, because when I'm in Europe I get to vote for my leadership and the data protection is done by them. I don't get to vote for an out of control lying General in the USA appointed by Bush and able to hang on by deception.
If I was American, I don't even get to vote for General Alexander, and the people I do get to vote for are lied to by him.
" The Soviets tried for years to split the US and Europe, and never really managed it."
The USA and EU are united, we both have privacy protection and democracy. Putin on the other hand has spoken out defending General Alexanders spying.
So fuck off.
Another wonderful example. A massive trade war will work out just fine for everybody. And think of how smooth all of the massive IT transitions will go across Europe. Well, remember to send your annual thank you cards to Putin for the natural gas, and hope you stay on friendly terms with Russia while and after they finish rearming. You know they are rehabilitating Stalin, right?
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Normally, when someone gets caught doing something that is really, really wrong, stopping doing it is the first response. However, the discussion so far has focussed on some random details of the systematic warrantless wiretapping, not on how and when it is going to stop.
So again my question: when will the U.S. and other 'free' countries stop spying on innocent civilians, companies and governments?
Our Constitution defines Treason very specifically as giving aid or shelter to an Enemy.
or in levying war against the united states. However, there is an additional element to the "aid and comfort" clause.
Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort.
From Cramer v US 325 US 1 (1945)
Thus the crime of treason consists of two elements: adherence to the enemy; and rendering him aid and comfort. A citizen intellectually or emotionally may favor the enemy and harbor sympathies or convictions disloyal to this country's policy or interest, but so long as he commits no act of aid and comfort to the enemy, there is no treason. On the other hand, a citizen may take actions, which do aid and comfort the enemy-making a speech critical of the government or opposing its measures, profiteering, striking in defense plants or essential work, and the hundred other things which impair our cohesion and diminish our strength but if there is no adherence to the enemy in this, if there is no intent to betray, there is no treason.
Luckily for the authoritarians, sedition laws--in particular, Seditious Conspiracy have filled in the gaps.
Sure you can try to bust our spies.
have fun! can't be done! our number one spy is one Linus Torvalds - that guy has access to source code used on most military bases!
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
Of course that would probably result in considerable unpleasantness.
The unpleasantness goes back decades. Look, here's a Slashdot story about the EU investigating it from 1998.
This time around they learned that NSA/CIA is spying on their governments, not just their citizens. That's what they're really tweaked about. They've been complicit in spying on their citizens all along - that's what the 'data sharing' agreements are for.
This is just self-appointed elites getting mad at other self-appointed elites for doing to each other what they do to everybody else. You can put the US or the EU in either the subject or the object there and it still works just fine.
What Snowden did is get the elites' press talking about the extant unpleasantness - fifteen years after the alternate press.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
There is an interesting side effect about this data problem: the cloud.
Currently, the biggest cloud providers are based in US.
But due to the NSA disclosure, most companies cannot afford to give their data to outside countries, especially since it's now clear that NSA spied european companies economically.
So local cloud providers will quickly emerge, and this will directly impact Google and Amazon's services.
US clouds cannot be trusted anymore.
All the major players spy on each other. Even their allies. I think it's expected to happen and only when it becomes public do the players pretend to be outraged.
http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19930418&slug=1696416
Legal terms frequently have no relation to how those terms are used in the actual English language. Think of legalese as an entirely separate language that just happens to use many of the same words and grammar. You are writing about what treason means in legalse, yet that has no bearing on what treason means in English.
that's no plane!
> Espionage? Probably, although when it's being done with the full knowledge of the other government
Except that it's not. It's with the limited knowledge of a few people in the other spy groups, and it's segmented off into walled compartments. So very, very few people actually know the full extent of such data sharing, even among the legislative bodies that fund it or the courts that rule on it.
And yes, it's often treason because the agencies engage in *exchange* of such information, with governments that are enemies or contain enemies of the US. Take a good look at the nuclear technology trading by Pakistan, who are lauded as allies to the US because they let us use airbases there for the Afghanistan, then Iraq wars.
The "calling it treason is itself treason" is just a kindergarten game of "I'm rubber and you're glue".
That is nonsense. Most European nations are part of NATO and allied with each other, including the US and Canada. If all of Europe were vassal states to the US this wouldn't be an issue, nor would many other things. The fact of the matter is that Europe has long been dependent on the US for filling the gap in Europe's defenses since European nations for the most part don't meet the level of defense spending agreed to by treaty.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Remind them the EU is the largest economy in the world and that we will are morally more entitled to set the rules for the democratic world. Not them, not anymore.
But the US has Guns and bases in europe. How I wish the europeans would grow a pair of balls and kick the americans out of europe. Sixth fleet go home. No more american nuclear submarines stationed in Sardinia. No more bases in Germany, Italy and Spain, Turkey, and the UK. We also need to rediscuss what NATO is about and why the hell we're spending money on this cold war era relic.
I wonder how many of the politicians who won't help him are scared silly on what secrets of theirs may be revealed.
Waiting for an amusing sig.
Well now we have France in the game as well. Looks like more and more of the EU is getting out.
The US isn't the only western country with an all-seeing digital eye... at least, according to Le Monde. The news outlet claims that France's General Directorate for External Security has a PRISM-like system that captures and processes the metadata for "billions and billions" of communications, including internet messaging, phone calls, SMS and even faxes. The goal is ostensibly to track the behavior of terrorist cells, but the Directorate allegedly shares the anonymized information with other intelligence services, including the police. Whether or not residents can do much about the snooping, if real, is another matter. One source believes that it exists in a gray area, as French law reportedly doesn't account for the possibility of storing personal data this way. We're skeptical of claims that the Directorate can spy on "anyone, anytime," especially without official commentary, but we'd suggest that locals be careful with their secrets all the same.
Very luke-warm response from the EU politicians. France will "consider suspending trade negotiations for 2 weeks", The EU will now "suspend data sharing talks". Well 2 big woopdiedoo's. The real trade negotiations are well hidden from the EU PUBLIC (Not he NSA of course :), and the snoopers from the NSA already have our data, there is no need to share. We already give it!
THATS the real issue for Europeans people... WTF don't our politicians CARE about this? That scares me more then the whole snooping.
Seriously? MI6 has been world-renowned as a leader in intelligence gathering for both above- and below-the board purposes since WWII. Recently, the UK was caught working with the US to capture digital information from in-country diplomats during a number of conferences.
Everybody who can afford it does it -- that's common knowledge and common sense. Russian and Chinese spies are routinely caught in the US and traded for US spies caught abroad... and let's not even get into the kind of shit that Mossad does. If you're seriously claiming to be ignorant of this stuff, you should probably just steer clear of these conversations.
All of this ballyhooing is just political hand-waving. Everyone pretends to be so upset that they're willing to break ties and blah blah blah, just to have something to hang over the head of the other guy at the negotiating table. Watch... you'll see.
If you have nothing to hide, there is no harm. That's what they have been telling us.
They accuse China of cyber attacking the US and yet it is revealed that US has been actively attacking other countries including China.
US is doing this to itself and all by itself. This is real and not just some propaganda or plants.
You're a paranoid idiot.
<pedantry> "Continent" is an ambiguous word, it's explicit meaning can only be derived through association with one of the defining conventions. Also the non-"member states" are known as countries. EU !== US </pedantry>
Given that "continent" in the least strict sense just means very large land mass, it's not much of a stretch to loosely describe the EU and US as two continents given the proportion of land or definition of continent they occupy (Europe, Americas).
This is true. Basically all countries in the world run some level of monitoring through their consulates and embassies—this includes US allies spying on the US. Few have the ability to tap everything, but they all do it. For them, it's just basic intelligence gathering. http://news.yahoo.com/obama-suggests-spying-nations-allies-common-210845024.html [AP via Yahoo]
That's some remarkably racist shit coming from a slave owner.
Yes, but to certain people, it's not that they committed a crime that's the problem, but that it has been reported. The US, and various government agencies, enjoy charging others with crimes...they do not enjoy being charged with crimes themselves...and they react like anyone who has enjoyed privileged immunity to the negatives of their actions for a long period of time, as in, they do not know how to react to being on the other end of the sword, and thus, act like the criminals they've sought to prosecute. It's especially demeaning and humbling to them, as it overturns their own self-image as crusaders of justice ("Wait, we're the villains? That can't be! We're the good guys! You must be the villain!"), as well as forces them to realize that their character assassinations are just that, character assassinations (it's so much easier if the Judge / Jury has never been on the other end of the sword, ever, and thus do not know the effects of even a threat of its use; this makes it easier for the DA to paint an image of a person having criminal mannerisms and behaviors; now they are finding that they've been misled, for much of their lives, about what is and is not evil...and admittedly, that frightens them; what Judge / Jury wishes to admit that they fell for the DA's theatrics, time and time again? Or that innocents were sold into slavery, executed, or otherwise imprisoned on their watch, and with their gracious consent?).
Snowden is not hated because he 'betrayed' the US in any sense of the word, but because he showed people that the US has a dark underbelly. The people copping the 'betrayal / traitor' talk are the people who are afraid...they don't want to be seen not taughting the official story line; keep your head down, repeat the lies that you are told, believe them if you have to, and you will get through this...this is their thinking. To that end, there are, perhaps, more than a handful of politicians who are scared sh*tless that their watercooler talk on their cellphones / secure lines is sitting in a special folder on the NSA Director's personal computer; that fear alone is enough to guarantee their loyalty. And that's not accounting for the digital trickery that a thousand or so programmers, under control of the NSA, can achieve if evidence ever needs to be manufactured.
So this is the problem the NSA is faced with: they are breaking the highest laws of the land to achieve their ends. Theft, murder, rape, lies...all of these are considered necessary in the course of their actions. And no one is willing to tell them "Give it a miss."
I am John Hurt.
The US government has tainted just about everything it touches. In situations like these, a wise person would be more interested in integrity than the pain of change.
Can US based technologies be trusted knowing the things we know? I'm not asking if there are "better alternatives." I'm asking if, knowing what we know today, you have 100% trust in US technology products.
As for better alternatives? There are. Free alternatives. The REAL problem is the pain of transition. And seriously. Pain of transition pales in comparison to the pain of other things to come while we use the tainted and compromised products like confused addicts.
Another wonderful example. A massive trade war will work out just fine for everybody. And think of how smooth all of the massive IT transitions will go across Europe.
If the alternative is to get spied on then a massive trade war at least works out better for Europe. The best option would naturally have been if it was possible to trust US products with your information but when that no longer is the case then a massive IT transition is a better option.
It is a bit like choosing between a frontal collision or driving off the road. Neither alternative is a good one but one is clearly better than the other.
Remember, the best alternative is not always a good alternative but when you are in a shitty situation you still have to choose the lesser evil.
A massive trade war will work out just fine for everybody. And think of how smooth all of the massive IT transitions will go across Europe.
More Linux development. Awesome.
You know they are rehabilitating Stalin, right?
OK, now you're just sounding stupid.
Help I am stuck in a signature factory!
If the EU stops providing the data, and the U.S. blocks flights, how long do you think it will last. The U.S. will realize how much they are being harmed by their tantrum and be forced to stop it. Sure, the EU will suffer a few problems too, but I would think it is more closely linked to other countries in Eurasia and Africa than with North America. America is more reliant on connections to other continents (requiring a lot of air travel) than is Europe. I can't believe I'm saying this, but I hope America lets its business leaders make it a true second rate nation by outsourcing everything. Then they won't have as much weight to throw around. In any case, it's time to stand up to their bullying. The white hat they think they wear has turned dirty grey, at least. It's amazing how treating your friends like enemies can change opinions.
-- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
The Soviets tried for years to split the US and Europe, and never really managed it.
Complete BS. It is the US that for years tried (and still tries) to fragment the EU and prevent it from growing too powerful.
Again BS. Typical US propaganda: "What would become of you without our protection, hmm? You really want the Big Putin Cock instead? Now suck deeper."
Just a question. Are you a SOPA supporter? If the answer is no then I ask you. Do you think any politician at this point has a remote chance of passing through a SOPA-like bill through any Govt. abreast the Snowden debacle?
Here's some food for thought. The EU has decided to vote against sharing data with the US and you also have Google and other large internet providers seeking to fight FISA restrictions in court so they can show the public untainted numbers in relation to requests made by the NSA.
You may be right, there may be some harm done but harm to who? At this stage the fallout is only affecting the NSA. Should further harm incur who do you believe will suffer?
OK, now you're just sounding stupid
Sometimes when something sounds stupid to you it means that you are the one that is uninformed.
Fareed Zakaria GPS : Last Look: Russia's Rehabilitation of Stalin
Rehabilitating Joseph Stalin
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
How is it anything other than pure whistleblowing to disclose secret documents proving that top government officials have been systematically deceiving the public about vital matters and/or skirting if not violating legal and Constitutional limits?
This narrative is being repeated by US military propaganda machine, which unfortunately also includes most of the worlds mass media corporations (I just watched a EU news presenter refer to Snowden as a spy in the same breath as feigning outrage over EU diplomat spying by the NSA).
It is unfortunate that shill accounts like cold fjord (826450) are being given increasing airtime on slashdot, with a long list of incorrect, misleading, and downright deceitful stories being promoted to the front page in this accounts name (with some infrequent light hearted ones sprinkled I for good cover/measure), all with the same or similar propaganda message. Not to mention the untold number of minion accounts used to harvest and mod up the posts.
My only question is, are the slashdot editors complicit? We have already seen multi million dollar propaganda software is up and running to manage accounts like Cold fjord (826450), what is the slashdot moderation system doing to counter such technological advances?
I had no intention of going to the US in the first place. I won't go there as long as the fingerprinting, cancer machines and other general invasions of privacy are cut out. It's a shame, as I'd love to do a coast to coast road trip in a lovely rented Cadillac.
(don't get me started on the amount of information my Polish wife has to provide the US embassy just to get a visa)
The NSA and other three-letter agencies harmed the US (and the rest of the world) with their anti-social behaviour
The fact of the matter is that Europe has long been dependent on the US for filling the gap in Europe's defenses since European nations for the most part don't meet the level of defense spending agreed to by treaty.
That is nonsense. The need for a NATO membership is no longer there for European nations since December 1991. The EU NATO members could to leave NATO today and shut down all the US military bases here EU defensive capabilities would still be more than sufficient against any imaginable threat with the only exception possibly being the US of A. It could be argued that the biggest strategic threat to EU and its financial as well as territorial independence is the permanent presence of US armed forces in UK, Germany, Italy and so forth totaling 69661 US military personnel.
"I have downloaded hundreds and hundreds of records, why would I care if somebody downloads ours?" Robin Pecknold
It's great that the E.U. is finally acting outraged about the U.S.'s spying which they probably wouldn't have faced up to without Snowden. I would think they would view Snowden in a positive light for it. Yet they seem to regard Snowden with the same animosity that the U.S. administration does.
"To stop the terrorists."
All the major players spy on each other. Even their allies.
In the past, the convention was to spy on governments or their agencies (who might or might not be spies themselves).
A sledgehammer approach whereby the US imagines that it is somehow OK to spy on citizens of other nations, on a wholesale basis, with no regard to "probable cause" or any of those other convenient elisions is totally unconscionable.
Suspension of data sharing is nothing more than a mumble where real sanctions should be applied. They should be quarantining all human traffic from or to the US, and banning all trade. If the US administration does not choose to operate by civilised rules, then it should be treated as the international pariah that it has become.
You know that the Russian army is in shambles, right?
"I have downloaded hundreds and hundreds of records, why would I care if somebody downloads ours?" Robin Pecknold
European governments where probably aware, but the public was most likely not. The public is now officially pissed, so the governments have to be seen doing something (there are elections upcoming in Germany and probably other EU countries as well).
so it's easier to blame a whistleblower.
Blaming a whistleblower is one thing, while acting for all intents and purposes like an international terrorist is another. (For those who are too lazy to look for a citation, see here for a succinct synopsis).
Abolition in the U.S. was decades after most of Europe, and you had to fight a civil war over it.
However, I agree that trying to compare the morality of America with Europe is silly, since you're both pretty guilty.
XML is a known as a key material required to create SMD: Software of Mass Destruction
But if not for the whistleblower, the bread and circus could've gone on as before without anyone raising any red flags.
Of course this is bad for the sociopaths, so you will find them clamouring the head for the truth speakers.
The witchhunt is back in fashion. Jesus comes to mind. He was also a whistleblower and freethinker who spoke his mind freely.
The close-minded and greedy criminals will want to silence the truth in every way possible and do unto others what they did to Jesus, in order to scare people into submission.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
LoL... sure, that will happen. Globalization has pretty much ensured that such draconian "punishments" are pretty much off the table, despite occasional threats to the contrary by various nations. Russia, China, the US, and the EU are all too closely reliant upon each others' disparate economies to risk an outright embargo.
Russia has been doing this shit openly since the 50s, and everyone still trades with them. China's foray into wide-scale information theft is more recent, but certainly there are other things about its regime that might garner disdain -- using tanks to run over civilians comes to mind -- and yet it is one of the fastest-growing economies in the world.
No, this is all faux outrage designed to influence one's standing at the negotiating table; nothing more. The EU nations know the score, as does everyone else with an IQ above room temperature. It's all just politics... never take politics personally.
Well, it looks like Jesus' actions continue to bear fruit in harming both Rome and its allies.
There seem to be some problems with your theory. NATO membership has expanded significantly since 1991, not contracted. European nations continue to shortchange defense spending, and in many cases the problem is growing worse, not better. Also, you may not be looking at a big enough map to determine the threats against Europe. Europe's anti-missile defense is provided by the US. The American military a threat to Europe? I think you are stuck in the fever swamp.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
I third that (is that a thing?). As a UK citizen I do not feel me or my country has been harmed by Snowden's revelations at all, a few irresponsible individuals may have been harmed such as the management in GCHQ who seem to have broken the law but that's a different thing.
For British citizens it's a good thing because it shows how we don't need to waste billions on the Interception Modernisation Program because GCHQ have been doing it anyway and it still didn't stop terrorists.
It also means we're aware of criminality in our political and intelligence classes and it's much better to know crimes have been committed even if nothing is done about them to be blissfully unaware of the fact because it both better informs you who not to vote for and it acts as ammunition against these people getting their own way on other things that are against the public interest in future lessening their capacity to pull them off.
So yes this is an excellent thing all around, even for those of us in countries that have been embarrassed by the revelations. I didn't vote for this, I explicitly voted against it by voting Lib Dem last election and so did everyone who voted Tory who were also against the policy and we were, combined, over 50% of the electorate, although the Tories have tried to backtrack the Lib Dems have at least stood their ground to kill the IMP twice now which is exactly what the majority of the electorate voted for in this democracy. If GCHQ is going ahead and doing this against the will of the majority of the electorate and against the majority of politicians in power through the published election policies of their parties then we the electorate have a fundamental right to know.
Thank you Snowden for fulfilling that right when vested interests would go against our democratic will and deny us it.
The root of the problem is being shown to us all, as we each wait for others to begin the revolt. The root of the problem is that the people are lazy, and don't want to rebel these days, life's to nice in America to consider it changing. Americans will not revolt, and that's the root of the problem. The people allowed the powers to get out of control, and now there's nothing that can be done, unless a peacful method can be established. Since the powers that be get to determine what peace is today, they decide that peace is when the people let the government do as they please. Anyone that stands up to that (the very founding of the country) is treated as a terrorist. I guess they pulled the ole: :s /witch/terrorist/g
The problem here is that the people are being fooled into thinking that the government is the problem, when in fact, it's the people that fucked it all up, as they're the only ones that have any REAL power anyway.
my .02
...that guy has access to source code used on most military bases!
So do you. And your point is?
Next, remember that the UK doesn't demand the rest of the EU give over flight data like that, therefore if the EU were to suspend doing that, there would be no difference.
for most european countries citizens it wouldn't be even legal to be spying on other countries(to do espionage abroad). for NSA faculty it's legal.
so a lot of the intelligence - which isn't a lot at all - we gather is by trading information with others.
I thought it wasn't legal, actually... NSA is for internal, CIA is for external. Kind of like the distinction between MI5 and MI6 in the UK...
NATO is a cold war relict and should have been dismantled two decades ago.
"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
Good question. I've been wondering about the number of posts from young accounts who seem to have no sci/tech/math connection.
And no, I have no tinfoil hat. My wife used it all on sun tan reflectors.
Scruting the inscrutable for over 50 years.
To be fair that's already happening to a large degree. US bases are shutting down en-mass in Europe.
Just the other week the last A10s left so they're very much in exit mode from Europe as an ongoing process. They have no presence at all in many European countries now and even the UK hosts I believe only about 4 air bases, not all (none?) of which are even US exclusive. The US marines only have one base left in the whole of Europe now too IIRC.
Personnel is down to well under 75,000 troops now in the whole of Europe I believe, which spread across a continent of over 700 million people is pretty negligible and that number is decreasing regularly. I believe their largest deployment is still Germany with about 40,000 troops, followed by Italy with about 10,000 and the UK with about 9000. Countries like France and the Scanadinavian nations have none whatsoever (other than for short training/join exercise visits, no permanent deployments).
It is not a trade war to boycott someone's products. It is a boycott. Words have specific meanings, except to politicians and their shills like you.
Scruting the inscrutable for over 50 years.
Yes, France is helping Iran by being one of the leading countries in the EU pushing for crippling sanctions being placed on Iran's economy such that it has leading to it's complete economic collapse.
Wait, what?
From the place that tried to exterminate Jews just a few decades ago...
Funny, to hear that from the country that ended racial segregation only in 1964. And of course, the motives of 1940s Nazi-germany can be generalized to all the remaining countries....70 years later, still. Maybe this one will enlighten you.
...and to this day continues to say they need to be exterminated so the Palistinians will be happy.
Citation needed. From more than a few nut cases, that happen to reside in Europe.
Yes, both have very dirty hands. Europe much more so though.
There were some pretty nasty genocidal maniacs running around in Europe just 60 years ago. Much more recently than the US Civil War.
Of course Europeans don't want to be reminded of that, or the incredible history of wars in their past.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_conflicts_in_Europe
Everybody knew this, in the back of his head, the sudden gasps are a bit melodramatic.
ah badzilla i have been waiting for you to reveal yourself
http://www.reporo.com
While I abhor the whole NSA spying thing, I don't think it is unreasonable to request a crew/passenger manifest for incoming flights. I don't see a problem with knowing who is coming over just prior to them actually doing so.
Careful with names containing L slashdot.org/~AiphaWolf_HK slashdot.org/~AlphaWoif_HK slashdot.org/~AiphaWoif_HK
Europe is being totally hypocritical about this. They spy on the US like crazy and everyone knows it.
http://www.nytimes.com/1991/09/14/news/14iht-spy_.html?pagewanted=1
Young accounts start well over 2 million these days. Although, I agree, folks at 826k and above like that cold fjord (826450) might be immature.
The creatures outside looked from Alt-Right to Antifa; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
Wow. You are like saying, for a murder case, it's the one who reported the crime who hurts the victim and its family, instead of the murderer.
Nice logic man.
It's just bad for business. Ain't gonna happen.
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
Harm? What harm? This is /exactly/ what needs to happen in order to start to correct the systemic violations and illegal (unconstitional) laws. I believe international pushback is going to be more effective than the actions of the US citizens in these cases.
After WWII, Germans of course had no expectation of privacy relative to US and UK intelligence services because those intelligence services were concerned with finding enemies of democracy and war criminals. That arrangement also turned out to be useful for both the US and Germany during the Cold War. Germany has never demanded that that arrangement end. It's weird that Germans are surprised by this or think that this is a "problem". If Germany doesn't want US espionage on its soil, fine, the first step would be for it to ask for that to happen.
As for "blaming the messenger", blame for what? Do you think Americans care much whether Europeans have visa-less travel to the US? Given the trade deficit, do you think Americans care much about free trade with the EU? Economically, these measures may be slightly beneficial to Americans, but politically, they play badly. If the EU doesn't want these deals, it's easy for US politicians to walk away from them.
Nonsense. Most European nations have spy agencies that are entitled and empowered by their respective laws to spy on other nations and commit crimes in other nations, including the US.
Because Europeans like to travel to the US without the bother of having to get visas, both for business and for pleasure. Terminating data sharing would hurt European interests much more than American interests.
Also, you may not be looking at a big enough map to determine the threats against Europe. Europe's anti-missile defense is provided by the US
And any nation insane enough to initiate a ICBM attack on Europe would soon feel the full wrath of the European retaliation. You know that thing called mutual destruction which kept the world at relative peace during the cold war era.
There seem to be some problems with your theory. NATO membership has expanded significantly since 1991
More specifically it have expanded with 12 nations since then, all of which are formerly members of the Warsaw pact, i.e nations that for good reason consider Russia being a real threat to their sovereignty.
The American military a threat to Europe? I think you are stuck in the fever swamp.
No more or less so than any of the "genuine threats" to EU soil you see during you fever hallucinations.
"I have downloaded hundreds and hundreds of records, why would I care if somebody downloads ours?" Robin Pecknold
This may come as a surprise to you, but most people regard ongoing abuse as worse than past abuse. Which is probably a big part of why Germany has better relations with its neighbors than Israel does, or why France and the UK maintain cordial ties with most of their former colonies, even those that had to fight a war to become former colonies.
You can't be serious. Ban all trade? How naive can you get. Sure it's not nice to find out someone is eavesdropping on you but in retaliation you want to cause a global trade war? I don't think you fully comprehend the consequences of what you suggest. It'd make the 30's look like a boom era.
Europe can't take the high ground here. Europeans effectively continued slavery in their colonies until the mid-20th century. And the abandonment of slavery and feudalism in Europe wasn't due to some enlightened social views, it was due to the fact that mechanization had made it unprofitable.
The US is already pulling out of Europe in a pretty big way. It's an expense that we can ill afford these days. They will simply have to go up against the bear on their own. Good luck with that.
The US provides the lion's share of the operational funds for NATO, and has pretty much every year since the treaty was first signed. If the Europeans think that they are better off without a mutual defense treaty that they regularly default on in both military and monetary means, then they are welcome to withdraw.
The only thing that the US gets out of all the blood and money it has spent protecting Europe is global stability. Does the globe look terribly stable to you at the moment? We're way past the point of diminishing returns, so if you guys want to go it alone, be our guests. In case you haven't noticed, we're having a bit of money trouble over here, and it would certainly help to be able to spend those trillions of dollars elsewhere.
US is the only country in the world to have used atomic bombs....
It seems the Europeans see a difference between the ancient and honorable spying of one government on another and wholesale invasion of every citizen's privacy. The USA has gone way beyond what has always been considered accepted practice.
If the EU does stop the PNR, I doubt it will affect air travel to the USA for very long. Too much of USA financial activities are tied up in airlines, and the airlines will not be profitable without the European routes. If the EU takes this step, it will force a conflict in the USA between profit mongers and security mongers. And in the USA, profit always trumps everything else.
Will
Lets hope they suspend the sharing of the "swift" financial records too.
American Indians, Jim Crow, need I go on?
Your link doesn't work for me. I get a blank page with a NYT banner at the top. You do realize that saying something 100 times does not make it any more true. If you have evidence of European allies spying on the US then go ahead and trot it out.
Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
I thought it wasn't legal, actually... NSA is for internal, CIA is for external. Kind of like the distinction between MI5 and MI6 in the UK...
NSA or more properly NSA/CSS has two missions. Signals Intelligence and Information Assurance. They are part of the Department of Defence. MI5's mission is more like part of the FBI's mission. NSA's equivalent in the UK is GCHQ (Government Communications Headquarters).
Right. Because Americans never go to Europe.
Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
It's a bit naive to think the big players worldwide aren't doing the same thing the NSA is doing (they're just not as well funded). Europe with it's "terrorist attacks" on trains and planes that enabled the government to install camera's EVERYWHERE and armed guards at most transit locations. All in the name of "security and freedom". All of this started prior to 9/11 mind you!
This is a show! The US got caught with it's hand in the cookie jar. It will receive a slap on the wrist for getting caught not for having it's hand in the cookie jar.
The GCHQ is quite, quite British. The French services have just been outed to act in a similar fashion.
The NSA/GCHQ got caught. In a provable way. Before that there were only suspicions. Rest assured, everybody does it.
Which does NOT make this OK in any way shape or form. Since 9/11(or since the USS Cole incident even) we have been in a permanent state of alarm. 10 years on and all temporary security measures are still in place. All temporary legislation is extended. And it is our own goddam fault.
20 years ago we would have called two public schoolboys who out of a vague sense of dissatisfaction with the American Dream(and because they had no friends)decided to bomb Boston "mad bombers" and locked them away and got on with our lives. Now we watch breathlessly while some talking head reports they may have yelled "allahu akhbar!", call them 'orrible terr'ists and cower behind our officials.
20 years ago we would have called two madmen who in broad daylight committed a stone-age crime for stone-age reasons with stone-age means fucking cavemen and put them behind bars and got on with our lives. But because they called "allahu akhbar" while they hacked away with machetes we call them 'orrible terr'ists and start an enquirey why oh why MI5, MI6, GCHQ and other letters too haven't done anything to stop those two bozos.
Then this Snowden guy turns up and tells world "this is what your security circus costs you in personal freedoms and money" and we call bloody murder.
Frankly I am much more terrified that kids are run over buy a truck than blown to smithereens by 'orrible terr'ists. And rightfully so given the state traffic in front of my house is in.
We have been neutered in the past 20 years and now we wonder why we have not got any balls no more. Happy Fourth to you guys in the US. The rest of the western world also has its "where have our balls gone to" day today. The first truly international Fourth of July is now.
20 minutes into the future
Funny thing is that I would like to travel to the US for pleasure but since the whole mandatory sexual assault and fingerprinting came into effect some years back I've spent my vacation money elsewhere. I don't mind getting a visa although it is a pain, but I really don't want to be fingerprinted and treated like a criminal thanks.
I wonder where the kidding is here. Do this little thought experiment.
"Bugs in the White Wouse. EMail and phones tapped. Massive amounts of data collected."
Sound absurd? US would never allow it to happen? There you go.
Right. Because Americans never go to Europe.
I see lots of them around my part of Europe. They are nice enough people, a bit loud, but they don't cause too much trouble. Those are the innocent people who are going to miss out due to the abusive US government exceeding it's bounds.
We do, but we expect European nations to be bureaucratic, intrusive, and cumbersome anyway, so having to get a visa doesn't really matter much to us.
A passenger list and passport and visa numbers are fine, but why does the US government want the credit card information of passengers?
Damn right! But they are OUR spies!
its funny how you don't realize that the EU countries spy just as much as the US. How naive.
Interesting. So what are your views on invading Poland?
This whole US+Brits massive communication snooping+espionage and Bon Ki Moon personally denouncing E. Snowden for informing the UN and EU not to leave out Asia and South America and Africa that their offices are bugged and the US Director of National Intelligence telling the US Congress that he gave erroneous testimony because he "forgot", i.e. the dog ate my homework, looks day-by-day like a Monty Python show from the '70s!
The US needs a Coup d'état to out the real criminals like Obama and his unelected government to good old fashion way.
Also, you may not be looking at a big enough map to determine the threats against Europe. Europe's anti-missile defense is provided by the US
And any nation insane enough to initiate a ICBM attack on Europe would soon feel the full wrath of the European retaliation. You know that thing called mutual destruction which kept the world at relative peace during the cold war era.
Full wrath of what? The whole of EU has a few hundred nukes and no known ICBMs, Russia has many thousands of nukes and delivery capability. Many European nations - like my own - have heavily cut troop levels, training and starved them of all heavy equipment after the Cold War ended, we have a few special forces for places like Afghanistan but in major ground combat we'd fall faster than the Maginot line did to the Blitz. Everybody in Europe leans on everybody else and if not that they lean on the US, but if push comes to shove I think we'll find it's like the Lehman Brothers, everybody is leaning on thin air. The main real strong point is that we're rather massive, it'd take a ridiculously big army to occupy 500 million people's countries, but per capita Europe is weak.
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
This is not so. I'm from Latvia, one of the newer members of EU and NATO. We need NATO (so do our other two Baltic neighbours). We have a very strained relationship with Russia, and we have a military with essentially no fighting capability - in case of a sudden attack, our main defense we could deploy would be a light infantry force of about 1000 men without armor support.
Sure the total EU defensive capabilities are sufficient, but the EU has no single armed forces, it's 28 independent militaries. And some of us smaller countries only have any defence thanks to NATO.
On one hand, my government needs to learn a lesson, on another, strained relations are bad. Hmm.
There were some pretty nasty genocidal maniacs running around in Europe just 60 years ago.
It takes a considerable amount of balls to play that card after Vietnam, Cambodia, and the so called War on Terror which were all just political power moves back home.
The U.S. has overall been a force for good in the world, but do not fail to consider your failings as well. Military force requires oversight.
XML is a known as a key material required to create SMD: Software of Mass Destruction
... but despite a wealth of capability and opportunity have managed to abstain from it ever since. (The U.S. has reduced the number of warheads stockpiled by over 80% since 1967)
XML is a known as a key material required to create SMD: Software of Mass Destruction
Whats that about sanctions being ignored?
Wait, what?
How poorly you know you history... it's sickening.
Did you know the reason why so many Jews were murdered in the Netherlands, many more (proportionally) than in other occupied countries? It was because the Amsterdam city government had a detailed database of the people, including religion, so that when the government was taken over by the Nazis in 1940, they only had too look up the addresses of the Jews. (Amsterdam has historically had lots of Jews that fled from Spain in previous centuries I believe). One of the most courageous terrorist acts in the 2nd world war in the Netherlands was the assault on the Amsterdam population register in 1943 (in Dutch); the attackers wanted to prevent this government database to be used for genocide. They all got a neckshot as thanks for it (look up Waalsdorpervlakte).
And now, l' histoire se repête... the current USA government under Obama is collecting a massive database on *everyone*, no doubt including their religious beliefs (could be Muslims for all you know!). And you're fine with that. And you just have to wait to see how all this data is going to be used in 10, 20, 50 years, by Michèle Bachmann or Nehemiah Scudder or I don't know who you want to elect as president when the going gets tough. Stupid.
N.B. although many cowardly Dutch betrayed their Jewish neighbours, many others got the Yad Vashem award. And most of my people's ancestors just "hid intheir houses with the curtains closed" as was most prudent and sensible.
To be, or not to be: isn't that quite logical, Slashdot Beta?
You live in a cartoon world.
I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
They won't do it. They think the US can afford to lose all EU citizens traveling to US, but they can't.
So the US insists on spying on everyone, and the EU isn't wild about that, and is suggesting stopping the whole 'give us the dental records of everyone on the plane' program. And the US is saying 'no more flights', and the EU is saying 'chuck you farley, its your tourist economy, not ours'. The anal twats are the US, not the EU. American flights can visit the EU, tourists galore. European flights suspended from the US, no more tourists. I think tourism amounts to a measly $130.8 Billion per year. Clearly that's a bunch of foreigners running around the US doesn't need. STOP THE FLIGHTS!!! That'll teach those pesky for'ners.
Other than talking about how bad things are in the Internet echo chambers, how has the average way of life not improved over the past 50 years?
Not only that, but if the airlines are sharing more than e.g. the last 4 digits of the credit card info, they're probably in violation of PCI (Payment Card Industry) regs and could have their ability to take payments that way suspended.
That would be a lovely data stream for identity thieves to intercept.
-- Alastair
Because there are no advantages to mutual defense treaties?
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
What a bunch of horseshit. The UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand are all a part of ECHELON which is a giant (and old) spy system that can do a lot more than spy on foreign signals information. Every country that can spy, will do so. It's nothing new. The only new thing is that there's a lot more info out there to steal thanks to the Internet. The only thing shocking here is that people are shocked at all.
Are agnostics skeptical of unicorns too?
The US just upgraded their technology to spy on things that are transmitted over the internet and cell phones. I don't see how this is somehow crossing the line. After all, if terrorists know that the US and allies don't spy on those sources, then guess what? You have a huge whole in your intelligence for them to exploit. Sorry but it's incredibly naive to expect otherwise.
Are agnostics skeptical of unicorns too?
Other than talking about how bad things are in the Internet echo chambers, how has the average way of life not improved over the past 50 years?
I can tell you first hand that our access to information has improved over the last two decades at a rate that is mind-blowing. 25 years ago I still used printed manuals to look up APIs. I've been thinking a lot about how our lives must have changed over the last 100 years. And I came to the conclusion that we have become complacent and risk-averse. I'm purely speaking for the West, of course. Been living in the US, Germany, UK and Switzerland and I can tell you it isn't pretty. Once somebody points out there is a risk attached to something there will be an immediate lobby group for that and politicos will lap it up and use it to gain votes. Somebody plotting somebodies death is the perfect bogey-man. You don't need scientific studies how that will be bad for your health. That's a slam-dunk vote winner. You don't need to explain anything. Platitudes and one-liners and slogans are enough.
Here's a newsflash for anyone who doesn't want to listen. Terrorism is as old as struggles between groups with uneven power distribution. They got it in the goddam bible and it was even old back then! Yet we act as if it were something new. We even act as if terrorism is a crime and we need new laws for it. As if our lawbooks weren't full of how to deal with murder, manslaughter and property damage. With the full "mens rea" song and dance. We all panicked and voted for politicians who ran on a counter-panic plattform and wonder how shit got out of hand.
I can tell you as a fact we are not our grandparents and great-grandparents. They couldn't look up Big Bang Theory episodes on Wikipedia but they sure as hell knew how to deal with the basics risks of being alive. Now if you could please excuse me, I need to buy a new rug from Ikea before my session in my other tab runs out.
20 minutes into the future
Don't kid yourself about European nations engaging in spying as well, including inside the US and their own neighbors.
They didn't get caught at it, they didn't get the data they have collected over the years leaked out. I know the government is paying you to shill, but the truth is, the USA fucked up bad, got caught fucking up bad and now has to pay the price.
All of you that say "but everyone spies" it doesn't change the facts: You are not supposed to be spying and the USA got caught red handed.
You know, everyone "jaywalks" but you still can get tickets for it.
Everyone smokes weed, but it still illegal in most states.
But mom, everyone is doing it! Seriously, everyone is doing it has NEVER been an excuse.
Be seeing you...
All the major players spy on each other. Even their allies. I think it's expected to happen and only when it becomes public do the players pretend to be outraged.
http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19930418&slug=1696416
Everyone jaywalks, but it is still against the law. You can still get in trouble for it.
Be seeing you...
Can US based technologies be trusted knowing the things we know? I'm not asking if there are "better alternatives." I'm asking if, knowing what we know today, you have 100% trust in US technology products.
The better question is, "Can you completely trust anybody's products?" Well, can you? No engineer put in their own backdoor? No company was infiltrated? No company outsourced to another firm that put in some "insurance" they would be paid? That is just a start. Practically every objection you have applies to European products as well as American products.
As for better alternatives? There are. Free alternatives. The REAL problem is the pain of transition. And seriously. Pain of transition pales in comparison to the pain of other things to come while we use the tainted and compromised products like confused addicts.
Linux and the BSDs are an adequate substitute for most brands of commercial Unix on certain hardware, for most types of work. But there are limits to free software. MySQL is not an adequate substitute for Oracle and its suite of products for high end heavy production use. You're kidding yourself if you believe that, but at least there is something to kid yourself with. When it comes to applications, there isn't much. There isn't a free substitute that I know of for Oracle e-Business suite, for example. In many cases where a free software alternative exists, it might exist for the primary application, but not for the many add-ons and industry of supporting products that extend and amplify the power of an application. There is a certain strain of ideological belief in the community of free / open enthusiasts that they will develop an adequate alternative implementation of everything commercial. This is nonsense.
Probably one of the quicker ways for Europe to lose its competitiveness compared to the rest of the would be to go down some of the paths being mentioned here today. Do what you want, do what you must, but you are unlikely to avoid the consequences of a bad decision in the long run.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
You do know that they are rebuilding, right? And significantly increasing their military budget? It isn't 1992 anymore.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Read the Puzzle Palace, asshole.
The French were a poster child of using their national intelligence services to spy on companies like Dow Corning, IBM, Boeing, etc... .. and THAT was in the 1970s!
Boycotts can easily turn into trade wars. Words do have specific meanings, but it is helpful when you apply them with insight. You didn't manage that. Whose shill are you?
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
It may not fit your little world view properly but Hitler did not restrict himself to killing Jews during the Holocaust. Of course none of the other groups targeted by him have quite the same degree of control of the media as the Jewish people does. Who cares about Roma or Slavs dying?
You don't know what you are talking about. It was in the best financial interests of the EU to keep buying cheap Iranian oil. That we went with the US in their little charade in which we get more expensive oil while Iran still manages to offload theirs to China is proof enough that the EU is abiding by the sanctions. So you whine about alumina exports like this is a huge weapons deal with Iran or something. Alumina is neither rare nor directly applicable to make modern weapons.
Had France never sold you the nuclear reactors and expertise you used to make your atomic program there probably wouldn't even be an Israel today.
As for Germany they gave you a couple of submarines you use to keep that arm of your nuclear triad going.
The US gives you a continuous stream of dollars each year to buy military equipment to defend your country.
A bunch of whiners and ingrates that is what you are.
A net of mutual defense treaties was one of the causes for World War 1.
"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
I'm not sure why you would think it would require a European military base in the US for any particular European nation to engage in spying in the US. Europeans tend to be able to travel rather freely to the US. Many emigrate to the US. There is considerable commerce. That alone is plenty of opportunity.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Exactly. If I had a date every time some US citizen said "Everyone is doing that" while they were the only one, or one of the few to be caught red-handed, I wouldn't be posting on slashdot.
Conclusion: they're either more stupid or more evil than the average. Take your pick.
It great that you have a personal hobby. Do you do anything useful besides?
Seems to me with the amount of spying that they're doing with Germany they're doing just what they claimed the Chinese do and that's steal secrets to give their economy an advantage. The US thinks the Chinese doing it is an act of war so surely this is and the US should abide by their own standards so the trade deal should be called off, they should boot US troops out of Europe and make Obama apologise publicly for America's nazi-like spying regine.
The European economy isn't strong enough to be having Americans cheat in business.
It's not like this wouldn't be the first time the US has done this: http://cryptome.org/echelon-ep-fin.htm (section 10.7) and https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enercon#Industriespionage:_Der_Fall_Kenetech_Windpower_Inc.
Oh and this was entertaining: https://soundcloud.com/madiha-1/students-question-the-nsa-at
The U.S. has overall been a force for good in the world, but do not fail to consider your failings as well. Military force requires oversight.
No worries then - they provide oversights aplenty.
The U.S. has overall been a force for good in the world, but do not fail to consider your failings as well. Military force requires oversight.
No worries then - they provide oversights aplenty.
I know you're being ironic but... On a global scale, significantly better than average. From an ideal perspective, never enough.
XML is a known as a key material required to create SMD: Software of Mass Destruction
No, it's not a better question and your response attempts to dodge the issue entirely. So I will rephrase it.
Because a company is a US company and/or heavily influenced by the US government, can you still trust it?
I am not kidding myself that alternatives to Microsoft and Oracle and all that are viable. Oracle is a ridiculously overpriced brand name that can be replaced with alternatives and even if, for whatever reason something else may not be "good enough" on its own, with the reduced price additional servers and computing resources can be added with only a portion of the savings of dumping Oracle to make up any difference. The only problem remaining is that applications may be written to be Oracle specific. That would be just part of the pain of moving to something else -- it's not because Oracle is "better" but, like Microsoft, is entrenched.
Consider this. Business did pretty well without Windows PCs for quite some time. And as technology grew, it may have made some advances which took advantage of the advances, but much like modern household eletrical tools and appliances, housework still takes roughly the same amount of time to do. Business and government would fare no differently in the decision were made to transition over to something which could be trusted. And once a large economy like Europe starts using and especially developing F/OSS software, not only would it be more trusted (the software), but any "disparities" between contemporary commercial equivalents would likely be filled in with the improvements contributed by the EU developers. And yes, US patents would be completely ignored if any were to be infringed upon... software patents are already about to be a lost commodity in the US and have been very rejected in the EU.
Europe is a large population of people. They do not export much that isn't uniquely its own. Therefore, competitiveness isn't a huge issue. Europe is actually the most eligible of economies for making the transition away from US products. And they already do pretty well without our GM corn and other such crap.
So in summary, it can ALL be replaced. All of it. With something that can be trusted. And for a period of time, it can be done without because that's what people did before they had these wonderful things to begin with.
Overestimating one's own value as they are now is pure hubris.
Keep in mind: One of the big reasons for the airline data sharing between the EU and USA is the US visa waiver program.
Basically, this means that citizens from EU countries (and a few others, like Japan and Australia) don't need to apply for a visa when traveling to the US. The EU sends over the 'relevant' data prior to their departing, and the traveler him/herself just has to fill out a piece of paper in the plane prior just prior to arrival. A few years ago the EU was questioning why they should provide all the requested info to the US in the first place after privacy watchdogs had complained about the practice. the US reponse was to threaten to discontinue the visa waiver program unless the EU would continue to send passenger information ahead of time.
So... Should the EU indeed stop sharing the info after the latest scandals, then it's quite likely that the visa waivers will be discontinued as well. That would mean that all of a sudden each and every EU traveler would have to deal with their local US embassy and apply for an actual travel visa ahead of time for any trip, instead of just being able to hop on on a last-minute plane trip...
It's hard to say whether what will happen, though: discontinueing the visa waiver program would make it a LOT less convenient to travel across the atlantic, and would in all likelyhood significantly reduce the number of people traveling from the EU to US, thanks to the major added inconvenience in doing so. Can the US airline and tourist industry cope with that loss of traffic?
hmmh? care to cite those countries(uk double 0's not included)?
look man, that data isn't supposed to be abused. and we have no visa entry or visa on arrival treaties with dozens of countries that we don't share information with.
as a matter of fact I distinctly remember even paying and filling for what amounts as a tourist visa into USA a little over a year ago. it's called ESTA. saying that is is a visa free system is just bullshit, you can't just rename it to something else and claim it's not a visa(if you have a visa then you don't need the ESTA, so in practice it is in fact a visa that you get prior to the flight).
saying that this arrangement to give the data to USA(even of internal eu flights!) is what makes it easier for me to go to USA is BULLSHIT! only going to Russia was a bigger bother(they glue the visa to your passport so you have to give your passport to them for a while, that is a regular visa and not a day tour visa or such).
and I had to do that prior to embarking on the flight. they would have had my information from that already, but having them double double I suppose is better for them? the point is, I can travel to almost any country in the world without notifying them prior, I can get a visa on arrival to almost any country - even parts of China and quickie visas even to parts of Russia.
not to mention that the banking data has pretty much nothing to do with it except again just goodwill and USA is not giving their data back - and I don't think it would be in american interests to make it mutually cumbersome to get a travel permit because we could do it as well, we just haven't been so dicks about it. we don't even do the bullshit "oh but that's not a visa it's esta" dance.
in short travelling to usa isn't as simple as travelling to hong kong, so don't try to argue that sharing our internal flight data is what makes it possible for us to travel to USA..
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
What about the American Natives? What about Vietnam? KKK?
USA is only a few centuries old, but it's history is full of conflict.
Why not compare the USA with Canada and Australia, since they started all in similar ways.
But you know what? I don't give a damn, they sold their country for Chinese cash, and threw away their rights for an illusion of safety. Ignore them, and they'll go away.
you must get a visa anyways for travelling to USA.. they have the "lite" version of the visa which is called ESTA but you need either that or a visa.
and it's more bothersome to get than any visa-on-arrival is to a number of a crazy dictator countries is. it's not that much trouble but it's pretty much the same trouble as a visa..
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
Shill or not he certainly has an agenda to espouse
I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
The whole of EU has a few hundred nukes
France and the UK have a total of 450 active (plus another >500 inactive) warheads between which is is a hell of lot of destructive power, even if only handful were to hit their target.
no known ICBMs
UK have 4 subs equipped with Trident missiles and France have their M51's that are capable of travelling 10.000km. So there are very few locations on Earth that could not be reached even without ICBMs.
Russia has many thousands of nukes and delivery capability. Many European nations - like my own - have heavily cut troop levels, training and starved them of all heavy equipment after the Cold War ended
Well the russian armed forces aren't exactly in tip top shape with units lacking basics such as showers in their quarters http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/russia/2013/russia-130204-rianovosti01.htm
Hell! It's just 6 months since it was announced that they finally are going to get socks to replace the traditional portyanki (footwrap) they have been wearing for the last 500 years.
The main real strong point is that we're rather massive, it'd take a ridiculously big army to occupy 500 million people's countries, but per capita Europe is weak.
True, however I like to believe that some lessons about the necessity of co-operation between nations at an early stage of aggression have been learned from WWII. Also keep in mind that a heavily outnumbered but better equipped and/or more motivated force can stand up well against an invading force something, that the Finns proved between remarkably well between November 1939 and March 1940 with nearly 5 killed Soviets per 1 Finnish.
Like Sun Tzu said "In war, numbers alone confer no advantage. Do not advance relying on sheer military power."
"I have downloaded hundreds and hundreds of records, why would I care if somebody downloads ours?" Robin Pecknold
I always wondered what Microsoft would sound like if it were a Pokemon. I can imagine that it learns Chair Throw at level 23.
signature is pants
Yet they seem to regard Snowden with the same animosity that the U.S. administration does.
Not true. Many politicians in various countries are thinking about finding a way to grant him asylum.
NB: The message above might reflect my opinion right now, but not necessarily tomorrow or next year.
I think he just did. He has the former Secret Service Chief in France admitting that France spied on US companies for profit. Since your browser can't read links, here is part:
"The allegation was part of a documentary news program broadcast on Friday in the United States in which Pierre Marion, the former French secret service chief, confirmed earlier news reports that France's General Directorate of External Security carried out a spying operation against U.S. high-technology corporations and their executives."
It goes on to talk about the spying done by the french on IBM, Corning, and Texas Instruments with both Marion and the FBI backing up the claims. The companies wouldn't discuss it, but sources within those companies had also confirmed that executives were fired "who had apparently gained employment in an attempt to gather corporate secrets. "
20 years ago we would have ... got on with our lives.
And I can assure you that the panic, fear, and outrage was no less 20 years ago, or even 40 years ago than it is today. You are just hypersensitive to it because you are living it in the moment. Call me in 20 years.
Because money is traceable, and quite often terrorists are funded. Some/Most had large transfers of money to them just prior to an attack, and if you can trace the credit card to an account that traces back to known source, you have reason to look at them closer.
20-40 years ago we had red terrorism all over mainland Europe. If they had had our technological advances back then they might have used them. But whatever they had back then was not well received. Particularly the term Rasterfahndung(dragnet) was very unpopular in Germany. But those terrorists killed bankers/politicians which everybody seemed to be not totally opposed of. One Bavarian politician tried to run for a federal position on a fear&panic platform and got kicked right back home.
When the Oktoberfest got blown up by parties then unknown(recent discoveries point towards an especially moronic Gladio offshoot) people responded by having another one the year after. People just shrugged it off.
20 minutes into the future
And 60 years ago, Americans were building bomb shelters everywhere and stocking food and water in them.
There comes a point where quantitative increases in an activity qualitatively change that activity. The USA has gone well beyond that point in its spying and snooping.
The NSA database is an open invitation to abuse. Sooner or later, lists will be compiled from these databases to be sold to corporations or used by political action groups, or vigilantes, next year's equivalent of the KKK, some "church" like the Scientologists to harrass their foes, or the highly moral Catholic Church to smother their latest child abuse scandal. It does not matter what the intentions of those who have set up the NSA database might be. What matters is that no human institution, not even churches with their emphasis on moral principles, is secure against the abuses that those without ethical constraints will inflict on the innocent given the opportunity and the possibility of some kind of profit, or some way to avoid a disturbance in the smooth pleasures of their lives.
The NSA database provides the opportunity for all kinds of abuse to be made by those with no moral encumbrances. The NSA has less capability of screening its database operatives for moral integrity than the Catholic Church has always had in screening its Bishops. That database is going to be abused.
Consider this: If Snowden at his low level of access could have garnered so much data, then how likely is it that someone with an even lower level of clearance could build a list of individuals who have had email contacts with cancer clinics? And how much would that list be worth to an insurance broker who wanted to exclude higher risk customers?
The NSA and any other rogue instruments of the USA government need to reigned in. Those civil servants who do not understand the commitment to upholding the USA Constitution need to be drummed out of office, if not sent to prison for violation of their oaths of office. Mechanisms may need to be created to prevent anything like this dangerous situation from happening again.
There is no excuse for creating this kind of terrible situation. The USA can survive any amount of terrorist activity: it is a strong country even though at times it seems like it is more concerned with safety than it is with liberty. But the USA cannot survive the corruption of its Constitution by elements within its Civil Service.
Will
That's rich, coming from a country that to this day portrays a genocidal thug like Andrew Jackson on its currency.
And the lack of one- WWII.
Can't win for losing I guess. Hitler's top general said in his biography that if someone had enforced the Treaty of Versailles and stopped them from re-militarizing the Rhine, Germany would have been dead in their tracks. If the rest of Europe would have aided Poland, it would have stopped Germany in it's tracks and it never would have became a world war.
By the way, parent post evidently missed the recent news that the USA Postal Service has been taking digital photos of every piece of First Class mail sent through its sorting devices for some time now. That huge amount of data is also being fed into the NSA database. So it is not just Internet and cell phone activity (and probably credit card activity, too).
Gee, what could possibly go wrong? All the guys and gals handling this data are so squeaky clean there is no way that none of it could get into the wrong hands, right?
Will
The indictment against Snowden specifies theft and espionage. It doesn't mention either 'treason' or 'sedition'.
Give the powers that be some credit - they're thugs, not morons.
Doesn't matter - they got The Bomb. Game over.
"Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
All the major players spy on each other. Even their allies. I think it's expected to happen and only when it becomes public do the players pretend to be outraged.
This is a given.
Everyone spies on everyone else and they pretend that they're shocked when someone finds out.
But I was under the impression that the outrage with Snowden was that he revealed that the US was spying on it's own citizens.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
lol...lists compiled and sold to corporations? You're kidding right? News flash: corporations sell information about you all the time without your knowledge. It's a huge industry worth billions of dollars. And they don't need to buy anything from the government because they already have it (and that includes medical information). You assert that the USA has crossed the line and you back it up with hypotheticals like selling data to corps. but there's no evidence of any of this. As far as I can see, you have not proven your case that the line has been crossed at all.
What's funny is if the government shut all of this down tomorrow and we started suffering from terrorist attacks, there you'd be outraged about how the government didn't do enough to stop them. The Republicans would scream that the Democrats are incapable of securing the country from its enemies and that would be the end of that. In short, there's no way for the government to win here. It's either a Big Brother state where fascism is just around the corner or it's incompetent and cannot defend its citizens. Pick which hatred you prefer but, in the end, you won't be happy regardless.
Are agnostics skeptical of unicorns too?
Well. I'll take the silence on the issue as meaning you either aren't available for comment or have no response to counter what I have said. Either way, I have more to add.
The thing is, there are a lot of people who depend on a healthy and viable US business strategy. But when the US government has sold off all the trust the world may have had in US business and US technology, it affects us all regardless of the side of my question you might take. If you're pro-Microsoft and proprietary software, then you should be way more angry than I am. The trust in US tech has been replaced with suspicion. That trust will be impossible to restore when alternatives exist. And the US has a LOT of things it wants to sell which are to be shunned. Software, networking, GMOs, pharmaceuticals, automobiles, planes and lots, lots more. Once trust is lost the customers vanish. And losing trust of the world is a HUGE loss to everyone who depends on a viable US economy. There's only so much the Federal Reserve Bank will be able to do if no one trusts the US, its products or its dollar.
The depth and the rammifications of all of this are mind-blowingly devastating and huge. I'm not even sure massive resignations of leadership from the President down would be enough to restore the world's faith in US goods, services and its currency.
This is just a non binding resolution. Remember the EU parliament does not have legislative initiative. Only the European Commission can propose a EU directive. The EU parliament is not a real parliament, it is just there so that EU can pretend to be democratic.
True, but if you want to come to the US, you play by US rules.
As you noted, Europe hasn't retaliated against ESTA, and Europe doesn't require the kind of information the US requires. Obviously, Europe doesn't simply engage in tit-for-tat over travel requirements.
Don't blame the messenger.
The root of the problem are the far reaching spying activities of the NSA, not the fact that somebody blew the whistle.
That's what the echo chamber on the Internet says.
Most people understand if Google is reading their email, it's not private, and they know the answer to "who owns the data on Google's servers?" They also don't think "spying" is one of the 7 deadly sins, it's a variety of activities, any of which can be completely legal.
This Internet freedom fighter crap doesn't fly in the real world.
Agreed
Us proved me wrong
European passports already have fingerprint and picture data. Face and fingerprint capture and verification are coming to EU borders as well. Japan already has them. I haven't noticed differences in patting down or intrusive searches between the US and EU. But keep going on living in your fantasy world.
My passport doesn't have fingerprint data, it has my photo, that's it.
The fingerprint crap at EU passport control isn't for EU citizens, it's for non-EU citizens. It's crap though and treating people like criminals just because the US does it is totally wrong.
There are differences between the groping people get in Europe and in the US so I'm told by regular travelers. If I'm not carrying metal though metal detectors in Europe I never get groped.
And it is you that's living in a fantasy world, you have the fantasy that the US is free when it's really quite a lot more oppressive than Europe.
If there was a shred if evidence this had stopped terrorists, I may see it differently.
As said by others, this database us prepped for corruption. A senator voting against you. - who has a mistress? Court case where the judge has a social drug habit? Policeman who hires hookers? This system is so dangerous, it's not funny.
The supposed benefits of this system are virtually non-existent. Dangers are significant.
> if the government shut all of this down tomorrow and we started suffering from terrorist attacks
You are already suffering from paranoia. The government makes you scared. Here is a tip on how to deal with a terrorist -- if you see one, take out your gun and shoot him. You do not have a gun? Call the police and they will shoot him. Easy.
Accept that terrorists are just one of the unpleasant aspects of life and DEAL WITH IT. You can be killed in a traffic accident; do you want the government to confiscate all cars for your safety? No? So why do you give up your right to privacy for a TINY chance of "being terrorized"?
I'm saying this from my desk here in Texas, but honestly, Europe should really give us the finger over this one.
In SOVIET RUSSIA... erm...NSA AMERICA, the Internet logs onto YOU!
Maybe animosity was too strong a word. However, given that E.U. nations such as Spain and France were trying to force Bolivia's Evo Morales to give him up, if he'd had Snowden on a plane, there is no support from nations that should be helping Snowden. Further, several, not all, but several, nations appear to playing along with the U.S. instead of finding another solution for Snowden.
http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2013/jul/05/tp-snowden-still-seeking-asylum-offer/
"To stop the terrorists."
Hello!? Anyone said Native americans (Indians)? What about african americans (blacks)?
And about current situation with Palestinians, over exaggerating much? US are more involved in "exterminating" Arabs then EU in "exterminating" jews...
But overall yes, there is no moral high ground for any country in the world, especially if you look up history...
Being an American citizen, I would love to see the U.S. pull all its forces out of Europe. It would save us a boat load of money. So, all you Europeans, disgusted with the U.S. spying on you (just like your countries are doing to us) keep on whining. It may be the best thing that has happened to the U.S. in a long time!
My karma is bad. Don't get too close!!!
Why doesn't EU vote for ASYLUM to Snowden?
Casteism
Two wrongs now apparently make a right? (goes to edit wiki's logical fallacy page)