Re:Why is this a concern in and of itself?
on
Women Leaving I.T.
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· Score: 1
True, there are many ugly societal issues that need to be addressed. But, don't be surprised if the final numbers aren't 50:50. At least two other people here have observed that, all other things equal, most women aren't as interested in technology as men. (Note that I didn't make this an all-or-nothing thing.) Precisely, I mean that, after society's bad influences are removed, they're still not as geeky as men.
I've discussed this at length with my sister, a magna cum laude engineering graduate of this school. She's commented that many of her other similarly gifted female friends just can't picture being a windshield-wiper engineer for 30+ years. They're more likely to find fulfillment in (for example) managing a bunch of geeks. (Again, I said most. A handful of her peers are happily employed as geeks or pseudo-geeks.)
Aside: Your law and medicine examples are interesting. I don't know many lawyers, but I have pegged many physician roles as ones more suitable to women. Those include primary care positions and surgical fields (e.g. ophthalmology) that involve "small" surgery.
Another aside: Is science harder than medicine or law? I'd say that depends on your approach (and the particular "science" field). To be successful in medicine or law you have to be (above all else) an informaniac that can assimilate lots of (often boring) information in a short time. The analytical part, when it appears, is child's play. In engineering, you may not be overwhelmed with information, but the concepts are more difficult to grasp. So, yes and no. Who is more likely to be an informaniac? A number cruncher? We may never know for sure, but I'll bet the distribution won't be 50:50 for either.
One more aside, on the subject of hard-wired gender differences: Here's a single example; extrapolate at your own risk. A friend of mine has two young sons (4 and 2). She's consciously strived to make their environment gender-neutral and has done some interesting experiments. Not long ago she got them a dollhouse and some customary accessories for it. They pulled out the furniture and rugs and parked their trucks in it.:)
Try the political compass. I think it's been noted on Slashdot before. It gives you two dimensions, anyway, and is -- I think -- slightly more useful than the conventional L-R classification.
I smell FUD, too, so your point is a good one, but stop and consider all the anti-FUD that brain-dead MBAs are spouting about outsourcing these days. Two wrongs might get us close to a "right" here.
This reminds me of the "How should we rank undergraduate programs?" debate. There, some would say that the percentage of students who eventually get PhDs should be the measuring stick. Others (who're wiser) point out that a talented person may view PhD tracks as a 3rd-tier option. (No value judgment of PhDs is implied, btw.)
I worked for a Big 5 consulting firm for a few years and people would sometimes wonder out-loud why there weren't any Ivy leaguers in the office. Here, the wise people would respond that management consulting and investment banking were seen (by the Ivies) as greener pastures. Why butt heads with an accounting major from State U. when you can, instead, be Chelsea's teammate at McKinsey?
You'll make big bucks only if you go to a top-tier school or beat the odds and become the "self-made man" of American legend (/ myth?). I 'spose there's also the option of taking over someone else's thriving practice. But, you'd need big $ to do that, anyway.
Nice post... I've lived in both areas and, when in California, I was very amused at the life-long coastal types and their coastal-centric beliefs. I think some of them really believed that Chicago was 3 stoplights and a corn silo.
I agree with most of that, but please be cautious, because it's this type of thinking that's behind some age discrimination. You're surely familiar with the IT stereotypes of the "senior" employee with a calcified brain who "just can't keep up with the youngins." HR (and their masters) love justifying their actions and any evidence you provide could possibly help them.
I had the same experience... old scanner that works well (for me, at least) but can't easily be used with anything beyond W98. It was an easy matter to make it work on Linux (using scanimage, natch).
Fine, but I fear that the (metaphorical) feet of overseas outsourcing and H1B use are so firmly in the door that our IT landscape has been forever altered. Not everything can (or will) be rolled back to what it was. Overseas outsourcing, in particular, is bound to improve because it's been given so many second (and third, and...) changes by the mediocre MBAs who're running our society.
Berkeley and Yale? I'd guess that, even if they're larger, they're not that much larger. It may be because the founders have ties to UMich and Stanford. Who knows?
We'll outsource all of our math needs to China and India. Those people are better at it, anyway, and just think - - we won't have to pay those silly little "engineers" anymore. You know - - the ones that really annoyed us with their intelligence before we got our MBAs.
Laugh all you want, but my dad can remember kids being whacked on the (left) hand with a steel ruler in elementary school if they didn't use their right hands when writing.
It was a private religious school. I'll let you guess which religion.)
As at least one poster has already noted, this would be particularly brutal for the low- and medium-wage folks living in the Central Valley that're driving their poor selves miles 'n miles to the Bay Area every day 'cause... they're already close to the edge financially.
It would be more just (relatively, anyway) to tax water consumption in Atherton and Hillsborough. (Not that I'd go there, at least not as a matter of principle...)
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I've discussed this at length with my sister, a magna cum laude engineering graduate of this school. She's commented that many of her other similarly gifted female friends just can't picture being a windshield-wiper engineer for 30+ years. They're more likely to find fulfillment in (for example) managing a bunch of geeks. (Again, I said most. A handful of her peers are happily employed as geeks or pseudo-geeks.)
Aside: Your law and medicine examples are interesting. I don't know many lawyers, but I have pegged many physician roles as ones more suitable to women. Those include primary care positions and surgical fields (e.g. ophthalmology) that involve "small" surgery.
Another aside: Is science harder than medicine or law? I'd say that depends on your approach (and the particular "science" field). To be successful in medicine or law you have to be (above all else) an informaniac that can assimilate lots of (often boring) information in a short time. The analytical part, when it appears, is child's play. In engineering, you may not be overwhelmed with information, but the concepts are more difficult to grasp. So, yes and no. Who is more likely to be an informaniac? A number cruncher? We may never know for sure, but I'll bet the distribution won't be 50:50 for either.
One more aside, on the subject of hard-wired gender differences: Here's a single example; extrapolate at your own risk. A friend of mine has two young sons (4 and 2). She's consciously strived to make their environment gender-neutral and has done some interesting experiments. Not long ago she got them a dollhouse and some customary accessories for it. They pulled out the furniture and rugs and parked their trucks in it. :)
Try the political compass. I think it's been noted on Slashdot before. It gives you two dimensions, anyway, and is -- I think -- slightly more useful than the conventional L-R classification.
I smell FUD, too, so your point is a good one, but stop and consider all the anti-FUD that brain-dead MBAs are spouting about outsourcing these days. Two wrongs might get us close to a "right" here.
Another expression you might want to avoid: "See you next Tuesday." :)
I worked for a Big 5 consulting firm for a few years and people would sometimes wonder out-loud why there weren't any Ivy leaguers in the office. Here, the wise people would respond that management consulting and investment banking were seen (by the Ivies) as greener pastures. Why butt heads with an accounting major from State U. when you can, instead, be Chelsea's teammate at McKinsey?
You'll make big bucks only if you go to a top-tier school or beat the odds and become the "self-made man" of American legend (/ myth?). I 'spose there's also the option of taking over someone else's thriving practice. But, you'd need big $ to do that, anyway.
Nice post... I've lived in both areas and, when in California, I was very amused at the life-long coastal types and their coastal-centric beliefs. I think some of them really believed that Chicago was 3 stoplights and a corn silo.
I agree with most of that, but please be cautious, because it's this type of thinking that's behind some age discrimination. You're surely familiar with the IT stereotypes of the "senior" employee with a calcified brain who "just can't keep up with the youngins." HR (and their masters) love justifying their actions and any evidence you provide could possibly help them.
I had the same experience... old scanner that works well (for me, at least) but can't easily be used with anything beyond W98. It was an easy matter to make it work on Linux (using scanimage, natch).
Fine, but I fear that the (metaphorical) feet of overseas outsourcing and H1B use are so firmly in the door that our IT landscape has been forever altered. Not everything can (or will) be rolled back to what it was. Overseas outsourcing, in particular, is bound to improve because it's been given so many second (and third, and...) changes by the mediocre MBAs who're running our society.
Berkeley and Yale? I'd guess that, even if they're larger, they're not that much larger. It may be because the founders have ties to UMich and Stanford. Who knows?
We'll outsource all of our math needs to China and India. Those people are better at it, anyway, and just think - - we won't have to pay those silly little "engineers" anymore. You know - - the ones that really annoyed us with their intelligence before we got our MBAs.
Laugh all you want, but my dad can remember kids being whacked on the (left) hand with a steel ruler in elementary school if they didn't use their right hands when writing.
It was a private religious school. I'll let you guess which religion.)
Yes -- thank goodness he put the kibosh on steam cells and not stem cells.
Bash! Bash! Bash! Bash! ...
Yes - - and the PR people dissemble. RIMSHOT!
As at least one poster has already noted, this would be particularly brutal for the low- and medium-wage folks living in the Central Valley that're driving their poor selves miles 'n miles to the Bay Area every day 'cause... they're already close to the edge financially. It would be more just (relatively, anyway) to tax water consumption in Atherton and Hillsborough. (Not that I'd go there, at least not as a matter of principle...)