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Women Leaving I.T.
Deinhard writes "NewsFactor is running a story on the exodus of women from the I.T. field. According to the article, women made up 41% of the I.T workforce in 1996. That number dropped to 35% by 2002 and that "the downward spiral is gaining momentum." While this is certainly a concern, what are the overall effects of such a mass departure?"
... of participants here this has long since happened.
CC.
TaijiQuan (Huang, 5 loosenings)
There were women working in IT???? Where?
Simple, less geek chicks!
And that's terrible. How am I supposed to deal with a woman that doesn't think compiling a just released kernel is exciting and the best forplay one can have?
Easy, stigma of the geek. Kill the stigma of IT and the geek and IT will attract more Women. Meanwhile IT will scare away just as many Women as any other geek...
Why is this necessarily a concern? I'm not against the presence of women in I.T., but I don't see that it's a problem if the proportion of female I.T. workers declines. This is just sexist scaremongering, along the lines of the GNAA.
While this is certainly a concern, what are the overall effects of such a mass departure?
Less sex on the job?
Oh, wait, we're talking about IT right?
Nevermind.
"Everything you know is wrong. (And stupid.)"
Moderation Totals: Wrong=2, Stupid=3, Total=5.
Not the women.... Although there is a good plan. More and more women are gaming. Teaching my girlfriend world of warcraft now and she likes it. Gosh, she plays more then me. Men are gonna get extinct in a way. Tucked away in a basement doing IT. sad sad ...
Now I'll never get a date.
what are the overall effects of such a mass departure?
Er... tangible masterbation material is thinning out?
Jonathanjk.com
How often is it though that you see an actual vagina-and-boobs bearing person in the IT field? Their scarcity may be scaring them off (No pun intended). It's simply a male-dominating field, considering some studies have shown that males have better grasps on logic and reason than woman, who tend to think more emotionally. That's obviously not the case with ALL women (See: Hilary Clinton) though, and I shouldn't be taken stereotypically.
"While this is certainly a concern, what are the overall effects of such a mass departure?"
1. Higher porn consumption
2. More men falling in love with Lara Croft
Its because theres only one of me to go round, and they're unhappy not to be working with me all the time.
Yes.
Thats it for sure.
http://twitter.com/onion2k
"While this is certainly a concern, what are the overall effects of such a mass departure?"
We will have to get the teas and coffees ourselves.
Sure it's great to have some chicks around but really, they go wherever they want to go and so do we guys, why is this so alarming?
The general exodus from IT given the fact that most jobs in this sector pay next to nothing and seem to be as satifying as a red hot poker crammed up the *ss.
Is it any wonder the people are leaving given that family friendly seems to be a concept completely lost on most companies.
Isn't this just another baby boomer generation leaving the office to have kids?
Unfortunately, I am not Wil Wheaton
Huh. This is not a poll? Sorry!
This is my sig. There are thousands more, but this one is mine.
There WERE women in IT?
Dayam! I must've blinked and missed them!
Oh well...
The few women I know in the IT field seem to have gotten into it for the money or because they couldn't think of anything else to do, rather than because they like working with computers. Now the money's gone, so are they.
The same applies to many men of course, but it seems to me that geeky traits are exhibited more often by men than women, so women are going to be fewer than men in geeky endeavours.
I don't think that a 50:50 split in any particular field is necessarily fair, what matters is not the male:female ratio, but that somebody with the requisite talent is able to pursue a career in a field without being artificially held back on the basis of their sex.
Judging by many of the replys so far probably the bigest thing driving women out of IT is the attitude of male IT workers who seem to think that we're still living in the 50's, for an industry thats meant to be the cutting edge of the future, many peoples attitudes seem to be about as old fashioned as they come.
Where you stand depends on where you sit...
It does not mean that there are less woman as the IT field has expanded massively... but higher numbers of men have entered into IT and thus increasing the percentage.
If we're talking about programmers, quality of code will improve.
If we're talking about project managers, quality of code will suffer.
If we're talking about QA, fewer bugs will be found.
Not sure why, but in my experience, women were better project managers and QA while men were better coders.
Since I've only worked with a small percentage of IT workers on the planet, this could be a freak coincidence. Others may have entirely opposite experiences from mine...
Lets face it, women generally aren't interested in computers. (being very general here)
There is nothing wrong with this. Why is it a crisis?
I suspect the "downward spiral" is due to a lot of women who went into IT (perhaps due to all the efforts made to attract them) only to discover they really weren't interested.
The effects won't be very significant. (it may have an impact on the consumer level as less software is written with women in mind though)
Live and let live. They're not interested, so what?
It seems like most geeks end up marrying another female geek from the work place. Now, that there are fewer women available AND the geek income has dropped, many here will not be getting married or procreating.
Of course for these folks, the good news, is that it will be much easier to cheat on your significant other. Just switch to the other hand.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
I for one think that if this is in fact the case, it's certainly to a loss to the profession.
:-)
In a team of 11, there are 5 women, which for me is a refreshing change in the tables for what has (for me) historically been much more unevenly balanced
The analytical approach taken by many women in IT (in my experience), provides an essential, alternative perspective and approach to providing IT services
C'mon ladies, stick with it
Good riddance! I am glad they left, more jobs for us. How exactly do women help the men in IT, other than bringing their stupid nagging attitudes. I am glad they are gone, good riddance, and I hope more leave. Long Live the Geeks!
it means less work getting a screensaver to work or a photocopier so they can film their butt. it means we can get more technologically advanced desktop models and get rid of the single mouse macs. woah bliss.
think rats in a sinking ship
(it's just a metaphor)
Is it possible that more men are joining the IT workforce these days than women, and so the percentages get thrown off? Even post-bubble, IT is very huge industry that offers pretty decently paid white collar work. Seems like an attractive job to fall back on for a lot of people: always in growing demand, good pay, and workable by people who took online/video courses on the subject (at least when it comes to remedial IT jobs).
fewer ugly fat chics in my day to day life, I'll take it! Seriously, how many women in I.T. have you encountered who weren't rotund and had pissy attitudes? It's bad enough all the men are like this, but I have yet to meet a hot female in I.T. And the talent ratio is about equally low, if not a little lower amongst females. This is not a loss.
Just remember, two in the hand saves time. Just don't cry over split hairs!
Women _are_ smarter than men.
May the Maths Be with you!
I worked for a female I.T. manager once. She fired someone every 28 days.
I assume this is a troll, but, anyway...
It is a well-established fact that women are generally better with (human) languages, and given that a lot of IT is not about advanced math but is about manipulating symbols you would therefore expect women to do rather well in those areas of IT. And of course a large part of any job and the main component of many support-based jobs is interpersonal skills, which is another area where women do well. In any case, the bell curves overlap a huge amount, so while your average woman may be slightly more or less gifted at some tasks than men, a lot of women will be better at the task than a lot of men, and vice versa.
I know plenty of women working in IT, and their spread along the competent-incompetent axis is pretty similar to the men I know. One of the best Un*x sys admins I know is a woman, who also happens to have a doctorate in math.
I'd suggest that the exodus, if it exists, has a lot more to do with issues such as working hours, and maybe with the limited novelty value of working with neanderthal male colleagues who can only rate to women on the basis of their genitals.
Virtually serving coffee
If they include call centres as "I.T." jobs then offshoring may have had an impact.
If you ever took a closer look at most of the male IT workers, you'd understand why they have problems with women.
And as is always the case when men feel threatened in their masculinity, resorting to dumb sexist cliches is the easy way out.
While the article's conclusion seems insightful enough, it doesn't take account of aspects like the general outsourcing of data entry (formerly the only kind of IT work women could get), or the sheer lack of advancement opportunities, particularly in telecommunications. Even with good prospects, women are disadvantaged.
Given the current wonky state of the larger IT companies, are they missing a useful female perspective?
insecurity asks the wrong question irritation gives the wrong answer
For sure, nobody knows. We at Slashdot can only speculate. After all. Apple and the BSDs were supposed to be dead now. Right?
The article was very informative in identifying many of the challenges facing a woman working in the IT field, such as gender inequity in domestic duties. However, there are other factors which also contribute to the problem which the article did not address. For example:
Bulky Equipment: Computers, monitors, servers, mainframes, microwave antennas and the like can be very heavy and difficult to move around. This can present a challenge to the more delicate female anatomy. As such, it is encouraging to see companies such as Apple developing smaller computers and using flat panel monitors,etc. Let's see more progress in this area.
Physiology: The female body is quite different from the male. Females evolved with wider hips for birthing, and soft bosoms for holding babies against, attributes which can prove detrimental in the IT field. For example, breasts can get in the way of frequent mousing,and the weight of the breasts on the shoulders and back can make it uncomfortable to sit and type for long periods. Likewise the wider female hips can be uncomfortable on a chair designed for men. Solutions to these types of problems can be addressed through erognomic science.
Brain Chemistry: Harvard Professor Lawrence Summers recently mentioned how women and men have different brain chemistry, as anyone who has spent some time with men and women can attest, they can be very different. Summers noted that the male brain is more attuned to mathematical reasoning and logic, both essential skills for IT types. Evidence for this can be seen for example in the fact that mathematicians have traditionally been men. Hopefully this problem can be addressed in the future through stem cell research and genetic therapy.
The dwindling number of women in IT jobs presents a problem to the workforce, but this problem is surmountable with a little ingenuity.
How do they define IT in the first place? It seems like an increasingly vague concept to me.
Does writing content for websites count as IT?
There used to be a time when women had the majority. Then, coding was seen as a boring women's thing. Later men realized that it can be fun and drove the women out. Could this be a wave of retirement women?
Start with the two years the mention: 1996 and 2002. 1996 was the start of the dot-com boom. And 2002, a slump after dot-bombs are clearing away.
Where's the numbers in the middle? Did it drop in 1997-1999, in the boom? Did it stay the same until 1999, then drop? Has it been a continuous rate change? Where's the support that it really is a "downward spiral"?
Second, lacking from TFA are actual numbers and places.
Is this the IT market globally, including countries like India, China, Russia, and others? Or is this the IT market in the US? Or perhaps just the San Jose area? Or just Arkansas where the school that ran the survey is at? How many women? Has there been an increase in the number, just less of an increase relative to men? Or has the total number stayed about the same, or dropped? What are the women doing? Are they including women employed as secretaries and managerial operations within the IT business? How about men similarly working in IT companies, but not doing IT? What about the people not in the IT business but doing the work for small companies?
Given the (lack of) data we are shown, their conclusions are not really warranted.
frob
//TODO: Think of witty sig statement
... the RE-GEEKIZATION of the IT field. Can only be a good thing. Take the power back from the suits.
I really don't see why people get overworked when statistics like this come out. Is there anything really wrong with the concept that there might be inherent differences between men and women that would account for something like this? Or will I be modded down like Lawrence Summers effectively was?
[ home ]
Given any particular male in IT, and any particular female in IT, the male is much more likely to be proficient in what he is doing. The exodus of women from IT just coincides with the burst of the tech bubble. Now that there are a lot less IT positions, the people who are filling them are the more qualified candidates, which means men. The girls who went to school in IT to make money/meet men aren't employed anymore.
Now, I'm sure a buncha people are going to get up-in-arms screaming 'Men are not better than women!'. To which I wholeheartedly agree. However, people who spend their entire adolescence in their basement working on computers are better at computers than those who do not, and people who spend their entire adolescence in their basement are far more likely to be men. Ergo, a particular male, having been far more likely to have been hiding in his basement working on computers while other people were dating, is more likely to be qualified for an IT position that a particular female.
paintball
Harvard President Lawrence Summers could not be reached for comment.
I think what it means is that Information Technology is, from the point of view of a company that isn't writing code, making hardware, or providing connectivity, a dead horse. The corporate world doesn't need in-house geeks soaking up the payroll and hoarding the sacred knowledge of esoteric, arcane legacy systems that don't work.
That equates to corporate IT being a pre-capped stove pipe within any given non-tech company - something women who are looking for good paying positions with the possibility of advancement aren't finding attractive. It may be that they aren't drawn naturally to the "me geek, me play with cool toys" life, but that life has limited applicability outside of the tech sector. Why would anyone intentionally choose to enter a career track that leads to becoming the digital equivalent to a cafeteria server or a janitor?
Until someone comes along and changes the landscape of Information within business (and society) to something that more closely approximates electricity - Information Utility - there won't be any truely good reason to get into anything but the super creative core disciplines of IT in a shrinking number of tech firms that are charting the course for the future of business computing.
Because women constitute both a more observed and a smaller population, trends will appear sooner in their group within the IT world as a whole. I think they are leaving because it's smart to be leaving this particular ship if you aren't in a position to steer a new course.
If IT remains a field where the only relevant knowledge is what you've done in the last two months or two years, then it makes no sense for someone to spend a career on it. Kids are coming out of school (in schools around the world now) with the latest programming languages. If a short absence from IT means you are less valuable than a recent graduate, then it makes sense to leave the field after an absence. Women are more often forced by circumstances like having children to make more mid-career decisions like this than men.
In other professions, there are skills you use and tools you become proficient at over the course of many years. It seems that these either don't exist in IT, or (as I believe) they do exist, but are rarely developed or valued. If returning to IT is as difficult as starting over in a new profession, we shouldn't be surprised that people choose to do so.
According to the article, women made up 41% of the I.T workforce in 1996.
No, that can't be true. Women are afraid to enter IT, that's why we have school programs encouraging them into IT, which is clearly a male dominated field.
Didn't you read this article?
If women are choosing to leave IT I don't see anything to be concerned about unless you're a single male who only meets women at work. In which case, it's not really concern for the women, is it?
Why should I be concerned about this?
The effect is that it is pissing me off.
How is a nerd like me supposed to find a date now. To most women, I am an Antisocial gomputer geek, but to a woman who is as nerdy as me, I am a god.
This is truely a shame for all of us computer knowledgeable dateless wonders out there.
Slow Down Cowboy! It's been 1 hour, 47 minutes since you last successfully posted a comment
who has a husband that works in IT, here are my general observations:
My husband's working hours are 8 to 5, yet he's never home before 6 (and that's on a VERY quiet day).
When he's on standby he gets calls all times of the day, night and weekend and has had to drive to work in the middle of the night because a server is down.
And when he has a major project to work on he works even more overtime then he normally does.
Now, I don't have kids (yet) but if I did I don't think I'd cope with the erratic nature of his IT work environment. Kids have school and activities that run to a schedule, you don't get to chop and change that at will. And babies, well, they have a schedule all their own.
I am lucky, I have a husband who does more than his fair share at home, but are other working women (especially working moms) that lucky?
It's no surprise then that IT is not that appealing a career choice for women, but it has nothing to do with their talents and abilities. Rather it has to do with the inequalities in our social systems (as opposed to the work place) where women are still expected to put family first while men put work first.
"I'm going to worry like hell and that's not an easy job, believe me" - Lu-Tze "Thief of Time"
We should fight for equal rights of women and men, that we should all have the same credit for the same work. But we should not decide that just as many men must do the same thing as women, or that there should be just as many women as men at every workplace. That's an artificial ideal. Women and men have different dreams for how they want to live.
However, I have always found it more stimulating and interesting to work in an environment with a balance of both sexes. If some workplace attracts mainly women or mainly men, one should perhaps see this as a problem with the workplace, not as a problem with what women or men generally want to do with their lives.
A correlation between when IT started booming in the mid 90's with the demographic of women and men placing themselves in the field, and perhaps the now born children are resulting in mothers choosing to stay home?
That isn't to say that there should be a preference, but it's just something to think about when looking at a decline in women in IT. I have seen it go both ways with my friends. Some find a Nanny, and some make choices to sacrafice their career.
Most women in IT back then (96) were attracted for the y2k problems and were relatively young. A lot of them are now getting to an age where they choose for raising children and look for a job with less stressfull and more steady hours (ie 9 to 5 or parttime jobs) of which there aren't alot of in IT.
"While this is certainly a concern, what are the overall effects of such a mass departure?"
In the case of Carly Fiorina all indications are the effects are overwhelming positive. Though rumours were circulating she might be tapped by the Bush administration to lead the World Bank, or a similar position of great influence, continuing the Bush administration policy of promoting incompetence. not clear if Carly has a clue about economics though she does have degrees in business administration. She does grasp the one principal apparently most important to todays business leaders and politicians, ""There is no job that is America's God-given right anymore,"
The article isn't clear if this exodus is U.S. only or globally. If its U.S. only perhaps its just an indicator that women are more astute and more career and survival savvy. IT is NOT a good profession since the bubble burst unless maybe you work at Google. I suspect most of the people who cashed in on the bubble were more the con artists than the IT professionals anyway.
Let's hop in the way back machine and remember John Chambers last year prognosticating on the future of IT in America:
"China will become the IT centre of the world and we can have a healthy discussion about whether that's in 2020 or 2040."
"What we're trying to do is outline an entire strategy of becoming a Chinese company," Chambers said.
There is great irony in American business and political elite bragging about the superiority of "Freedom and Democracy", "Free Markets" and Capitalism as they rush to embrace a Socialist Dictatorship and transfer most of America's wealth there. The routinely point out China's education system is superior, labor is firmly controlled and oppressed so they have a "disciplined" work force, every aspect of their markets, including their currency, are heavily manipulated. They also routinely implement massive trade barriers which are requiring companies like Cisco and IBM to transfer massive numbers of jobs, capital, market access and intellectual property to China in order to gain access to Chinese markets which are decidely not free.
There is great irony in this hypocrisy. Its pretty obvious America's business and political leaders dont want "Freedom and Democracy", they want dictatorship, manipulated markets, and cheap, oppressed labor. Since its difficult to retrofit this system on the U.S. at this point it appears they are just moving all their wealth where such a system is already in place.
Here is a quick summary of the new U.S. economy. Bottomline is if you want to have a future the career fields you want to be in are:
- Business administration
- Marketing
- Service jobs that can't be outsourced and where you aren't competing against illegal immigrants
The long term future in business administration and marketing is open to doubt once the Chinese and Indians have reached the point they no longer need their American partners (i.e. after they've learned the markets, once American markets collapse due to the fundemental unsoundness of the current U.S. economy and they possess all the production capacity and IP).
All in all its become pretty apparently American politicians, business leaders and shareholders are selling their own nation down the river in the name of short term profits and their personal wealth. It appears likely the U.S. economy could be collapsing and the stock markets would still flourish since most large U.S. companies are rushing to globalization that they can probably continue to be profitable even if the U.S. economy is deteriorating. Stock markets are most probably riding a wave of improved profitability from exploiting cheap Chinese labor and goods. Globalized American companies can flourish while America does not.
You have to wonder if all the
@de_machina
Both of them?
There are no loopholes. It's either legal or it's not.
It belongs to India now
(It's not like your job was worth the $100,000 a year you thought it was.)
Not such attractive working environments? :)
Get your own free personal location tracker
...them kitchen sinks have a better working atmosphere
I've noticed that everyone who is for abortion has already been born - Ronald Reagan
Two different call centers in my area closed down and both of those who lost jobs were women. My understanding was that were more women than men at both. So I am curious what is counted as IT in this report...
:)
As for maternity leave. We have 3 out now and one more going by July here. Two are out on 12 week maternity leaves. This is where I disagree with the article. We, like other companies, simply don't move that fast. Yes a lot can go by in 12 weeks but most of it is meaningless. There might be one major change, maybe two if some managers actually got out of their own way. Two of them have come back once already from an earlier pregnancy and nothing really changed here other than they have a few more missed days throughout the year.
Leaving in droves? Maybe they got smart
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
E.g., according to real studies, 3 out of 4 "programmers" just can't program. E.g., about 2 out of 3 don't even know the basics of the language they're paid to program in. Yes, males included. Doesn't really have anything to do with gender.
The dot-con fraud attracted a _lot_ of frauds in this field. The dot-cons were throwing other people's money out the window with both hands, just to show that they can. People with less brains or economic sense than a garden snail, had found themselves in a bunch of money, and had no idea what to do with them... other than show the Joneses that they too can spend like the big boys. Fast cars, huge headquarters, corporate airplanes for a tiny startup, or expensive programmers, it was just conspicuous consumption. (I.e., same as having a massive gold watch, just to show the neighbours who's rich. Doesn't even have to be a good watch: it just has to look blatantly expensive.)
And they hired _anyone_. Literally _any_ drooling ex-burger-flipper was suddenly employable in IT or programming. People who were too stupid to operate a cash register, were ok as "web application developpers" or whatever.
Lots of them, preferrably. Having 20 programmers and 30 artists for a 3 page web site was _cool_. Made the PHB feel like he too can play with the big boys' corporations.
And unsurprisingly, a lot did fake a resume and move into IT or programming. A whole caste of fraudsters was created whose _only_ skill was marketting themselves. They too "deserved" the big bucks, a sports car and a plasma TV, and were not gonna let utter lack of skill and knowledge get in the way of their American Dream.
It had nothing to do with liking to use a computer, or having any skill or inclination. Most not only had none, they didn't even try to learn either. They just "deserved" the money, they didn't actually want to start working for them.
And I don't think that being male or female played that big a role there. If there weren't 50% females there, if anything, makes me suspect they're more honest. Because anything to do with skill or liking computers, it sure didn't have.
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
You can't compare percentages like that and come to the conclusion that women are leaving the IT market without mentioning the actual numbers...
It's 11pm, do you know what your deamons are up to?
IT would not be the only sector where women are less succesfull at getting to higher ranker positions. When push comes to shove, it's the lower ranking employees who get fired first. Not because the are more expensive to the company (because they are not but because they have less clout to defend their jobs. Whimpy nerds too get fired sooner than masculine bigmouthed moneyguzzlin managers. If you still think it is because of pure sexism, think again. I think it is because the selection favours masculine behaviour, not males themselves.
And to put things in more perspective: I prefer Female managers over Male ones. I am very sexist at that because I think women have generaly more empathy and people skills, things a good manager needs.
This space is intentionally staring blankly at you
What vague garbage is this?:
"They, too, like to keep their skills well-honed and take on interesting and high-profile projects. But those very characteristics of I.T. jobs may be the ones that finally push them out of the field -- and they are leaving, voluntarily, in droves."
Okay - - so leave already. I hate this kind of touchy-feely pseudojournalism. There's an old saying: "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen." That's the only story here, and it's hardly newsworthy. It's a tough field. If you can't handle it, do something else. That goes for the guys, too.
It's only funny until someone gets hurt. Then, it's hilarious.
I believe that the problem is that all the men in IT are so attractive.
- Woman trains for information technology because she hears the men are so good looking.
- Woman gets job choosing purely based on the hunk to junk ratio.
- Woman falls in love IT hunk
- The IT hunk and the IT babe get married
- They have kids - she stays home
If only the men of IT were a little pastier, a little geekier, or maybe a little more rotund, this unfortunate series of events would never occur.Currency conversion calculator
Graduate college and spend the next 43 years in a cubicle writing code that will all be discarded 5 years later when the next fad language comes along and you get to rewrite it.
Opps, but of course by age 35 you will be forced to quit or move into management since you'll be sick of 60 hour weeks.
Clearly, women are too smart for that.
- Adam L. Beberg - The Cosm Project - http://www.mithral.com/
I tried not to be redundant and all, but ...
TFA talks about women's participation in IT as a percentage of the IT workforce, but that doesn't tell us anything about whether or not women are fleeing IT. Try this as an experiment:
Time 0: 100 IT positions. 40 are women.
Time X: 1000 IT positions, 350 are women.
We've gone from 40% women to 35% women. Have women fled the field? HELL NO.
We need absolute numbers to figure out whether or not there are less women in IT than there used to be, but TFA doesn't seem to have them (or I missed them -- I did R it, of course).
While this is certainly a concern, what are the overall effects of such a mass departure?"
The overall effect would be that of the small group of feminazis (also the loudest of people) crying out in indignation over how unfair it is...
How many people complain about the fact there are nearly no men in nursery school teaching positions? Well we'd say "women are better with children than men". Men are better than women with computers, quite simply!
I know this is a massive generalisation and, probably, a crap analogy--but there are always exceptions.
C17H21NO4
That's at least a little more believable than guys in IT having girlfriends.
Having a smoking section in a public restaurant is like having a peeing section in a public swimming pool.
Actually, no...that's not fair to say either. What's really happening is that there were never as many women in IT as this story suggests. There were roles in the IT field that were held by women more than men, but those roles weren't really *IT* roles...and those roles don't exist as much now.
Its simply a matter of how IT was defined then, and how the landscape has changed. The core support and development teams (what most of us would call IT) have always been overwhelmingly male....never were they 44% female. On what planet did that happen? I've never seen an IT dept with more than 10% females. That's really unfortunate, I think, but...that's just how it is (esp in the sysadmin ranks...the women population goes up some in the web dev ranks).
When the ship is sinking, the women and children leave first don't they? :)
Blame the outsourcing iceberg. Something about "no longterm prospects".
- Adam L. Beberg - The Cosm Project - http://www.mithral.com/
Rather than crying that the sky is falling and theorizing as to why a trend that may not exist happen, maybe the article should question the way it uses statistics more closely. (You see similar things in Apple marketshare stories -- Apple is down to 2% of the market, but they sell a steady or increasing number of machines. Why? Because the market is growing. It helps to have perspective on these things.)
I recently saw the freshmen statistics from my alma mater and the statistics show that only 20% of the university computer science freshmen were women. This number has been pretty much the same at least 3 years.
This is a striking difference to the days I was a freshman in the 80's, when about half of the class were female. But unfortunately a large chunk of them left to pursue a career in medicine or wherever.
Becaus they can.
Joining in with everyones else's generalisations - I.T women tend to have more skills then I.T. men ie they haven't dedicated their every waking moment to tech and so can find it easier than men to find jobs in other industries, leaving the men to compete for the few, low paying jobs available in the I.T. industry.
Plus they've finally gotten fedup with the I.T. men not washing enough.
"Free software as in beer, copy protection as in racket" - Telsa Gwynne
It's simple, studies have shown (I don't have links off hand, but I'm sure you guys/gals can back me up on this) that men are more geared toward math than women. Women are more geared towards language, which is why women are better at expressing themselves.
If you like TV shows and gaming please check out BornSlacker.com
When I worked for a game development company in the US it was extremely rare to meet a female developer, occasionally an artist or level designer. My company had a single female - the office manager.
:-)
When I came to Korea I was amazed at the ratio, it's approaching 40-50% in my new company. And not just artists but programmers, sysadmins etc.
It's not unusual to see a girl on the subway studying a cisco, C++ or Linux book. There's definitely no sense of uncoolness being in IT - it's not even seen as geeky, just a good career.
So in Korea, only old women are leaving IT
Just take a quick glance through the comments here and it becomes kind of obvious.
/* This sig is disabled. Press CTRL-W to enable. Thankyou */
Better hire a man.
I notice the article says "in the U.S." I wonder whether this says more about culture than gender.
You know, I sorta wonder about the generalization that everyone who left, was in it just for the money, and everyone who stayed is passionate about it.
I personally know people who left a field or a job precisely _because_ they were passionate about it... and it had turned into something they disliked. E.g., we have at least 3 people here alone, who used to program assembly since the days of mainframes and long before dot-coms, and then left for other completely unrelated jobs (2 of them became marketters and 1 trained to be a usability expert) when basically the job was no longer what they liked to do.
Loving computers and programming is sometimes _the_ best way to _hate_ an IT or programming job, respectively.
People liked coding a smart algorithm or maybe a cute game at home, they had their peer recognition for being good with computer in university, and... then moved into a real world that doesn't even vaguely resemble that. In the real world they:
- got bogged in hundreds of hours of verbal-masturbation meetings,
- were forced to do overtime for someone _else's_ mistake (e.g., the boss being too weak to tell the customer that completely changing the program needs more time and budget),
- were asked to implement blatantly wrong specs, or use the blatantly wrong tools, just because a PHB (own or client's) said so and wasn't gonna take feedback from a lowly peon. (The nice salesman says it's the perfect "solution" for anything, so now go make it work. If it doesn't work, it's your fault, not the nice salesman's.)
- had to wrestle with systems that wouldn't have been the wrong tools as such, but were wrongly configured and piss-poorly adminned by some other corporate department that's above the law,
- had to deal with co-workers that were annoying in a miriad of ways (ranging from the 400 pound stinking geek, to office backstabbers, to people who are utterly incompetent and lazy but awesome at selling snake oil to the boss, to whatever else),
- were forced to do stuff that really had nothing to do with the job they had signed for, such as being the poor-man's marketer instead of a programmer,
- were asked to do blatantly unethical stuff, like to actively lie to a customer,
Etc.
And some of us just learned to shrug and deal with it. Some left the job. And I think it's a bit unfair to just lump them into the same category as those who were in it just for the dot-com's money.
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
girls who go into IT to meet men? I've never heard of such a thing.
___
It's the end of my comment as I know it and I feel fine.
Specifically look at the 8th paragraph after the "Software for Grown-Ups" heading, though I'd encourage you to read the whole article.
Women aren't so much not interested in IT, as not interested in the unprofessional, hanging-on-by-our-fingertips, fly-by-night project 'management' that is so endemic in the industry.
/* This sig is disabled. Press CTRL-W to enable. Thankyou */
...are the women stored in the caches of thousands upon thousands of internet browsers :p
I was beeing repeatedly hit over the head with a 60lb UNIX manual!
How am I supposed to deal with a woman that doesn't think compiling a just released kernel is exciting...
...and the best forplay one can have?
I would recommend screwing her.
Oops, didn't realize you were taking care of yourself.
paintball
Let's face it, when women are present, men cannot be allowed to act like men! Forget about "sexual harassment" and all that other "PC" bullshit for a moment. I don't care if a guy is the hariest most burly guy or the wimpiest weakling, guys like to act like guys. The more women in the workplace, the more we have to watch our behavior and what we say. Frankly, I don't like having to do that all of the time.
I'll probably get modded as a troll for my opinion and so be it, but while I love women, I don't like that I have to suppress part of who I am to avoid offending people.
The thing that pisses me off about articles like these is what they consitute for IT. A Marketing person is not IT. Human Relations is not IT. Higher Managment is not IT.
Seeing as when usually don't do real IT (by this I mean analists, coders, sysops etc.) what they are saying isn't accurate. There weren't that many women doing real IT in the first place, and this is a good thing. Before people start calling me sexist, here are my arguments:
People who are good at real IT are geeks. People who sleep, breathe and eat computers. People who spent their youths behind computers instead of dating. Woment don't usually fall into the above category (a lot of men don't either). A lot of women went into IT after 1996 because of the hype. Like a lot of men, they don't love computers, the love business. Therefore, good riddance more of these people are going.
I'm so sick and tired of having to work with people with no technical skills and no idea of how sytems work. It's these type of people who come up with horrible ideas, like running your companies intranet off access. The more we get rid of these women (and men), the better.
Women aren't passionate/satisfied with technology alone as males, they are more interrested in social relations, showing off to their female friends etc.
Hence, not being something that made as much money as they thought it would, IT not being "cool" anymore is making them look for the next big FOOBAR that they beleive will change their lives (however it most likely won't).
nt
I can count on one hand the number of women I have met who are proficient at their jobs in a technical area. Everyone else is male.
This was even apparent at school, where even though only 5% of the students were female, only 30% of them had any business being there. (Then again, only 30% of the guys had any business being there, so it's even in that regard.)
Society still pushes genders into certain roles. that there are fewer women in the IT industry has nothing to do with the IT industry - that outcome is determined way back in elementary school in the way we program our kids.
Women having a lower percentage in IT positions is definitely a symptom, but bias against them in the employment setting is definitely not the problem. If anything, anywhere I've ever been in a technical setting women are by far given the advantage, from always having access to a free tutor in college to adequecy sufficing where excelence is presented by male counterparts in the workplace.
If we want to solve this problem, we need to be solving it young. We need to expect girls to be just as interested and good at math and science as boys, and we need to provide them with the opportunity to fullfill that expectation. More importantly, we need to stop programming girls that they will be successful when they are married to a successful man.
Trying to solve it in the workplace is too late.
paintball
Perhaps there is a correlation to the popularity of 'breasts' as a answer in /. polls.... hmm...
Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. - Martin Luther King, Jr.
You say that men spend more time in the basement with computers in their adolescence while women don't. First of all, I do not see an argument supporting this, maybe your own experience, which has not enough statistical weight anyway.Second, suppose it was true. Then, what do women do in their adolescence? You'll perhaps agree that they have a more social life (this argument does not have statistical validity either). Well, if so, then they are probably more aware of what a certain customer might need while developing software. Also they'll be more efficient in communicate with the customer to achieve better results in the software developed. This is as important for IT as the programming itself. Therefore, the fact that men spent more time in their basements playing with computers in their adolescence does not make them more suited for IT. They are just more specialized in certain tasks, while women are specialized in others. The mixture if the two specialities is crucial in the proper running and development of an IT company. BOTH are important.
if it was 40-some% and now it's 30-some% it could also mean that there are a increase in companies hiring man, not an exodus from the ladies side. Also, could mean an exodus, of course. ... maybe lots of porn sites broke in a retarded dot com effect
Women tend to take those 3 far more seriously then men do. Consequently, WTF would they bother with I.T.?
http://slashdot.org/~tf23/journal
hehe
--The Dude
I would be more interested to see where the consternation of Woman in IT. Working as a consultant (Thus moving around to different types of customers) I find there are more Woman IT Workers working for Government (Including Agencies and Schools), and Large Corporations. Less working for Smaller IT Shops. I think it just may be as simple that woman normally want jobs with better benefits and men normally want jobs that offer the better pay. When the .COM was going there were a lot of good benefits for almost all IT Workers. Now after the bomb most companies in order to survive they cut benefits and many changed people from salary to commission. So this change in especially smaller shops cause many people who wanted better benefits to move to a different area of work, that offered the benefits.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
what are the overall effects of such a mass departure?
Hmm... how about a generally more qualified IT industry?
...And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me." - Martin Niemoeller (1892-1984)
Has anyone pondered this? Most women who got into IT when the bubble was forming was probably in the mid 20's. That was how many years ago? I wonder how many of those women got out of IT in order to start a family.
JK!, We need woman in IT. Who else am I going to trust to clean my server room. If this trend continues I predict a lot more dusty wires.
Need help finding the flow? http://www.myspace.com/naturalismandbalance
I hardly bother making comments anymore, I just exit to BoingBoing until the slashcode gives me mod points, but this really needs to be said. The deprecation of computer related fields which is so prevalent in America is NOT the case elsewhere. Where I grew up, the "computer guys" were treated with a certain reverence and awe.
Brains are appreciated in systems which aren't the meatgrinder and specialisation winnowing of US education. I was puzzled for a long time by the "news for nerds" tag on the front page for a long time, eventually I just figured it was there to keep most of the meatheads out.
I mean I fit the classical "nerdy" stereotype almost perfectly, but I'll plant you on your ass if you call me a nerd, son. Mod me down if you like, but seriously, people, a little perspective here!
What he can't kill, he has sex on. Trent.
1. It's seriously flawed journalism. IT can encompass many, many fields. If they're taking into account call centres, for example, a lot of those have been shipped out of the US. Tech support also went through this crazy phase were they were hiring Customer Service types to do tech support as well. As much as I hate to say it, the sort of prejudice in tech support leans way more towards women. (Just an example of what could be veering these stats around.) 2. I doubt it's the family juggle that's making my gender less prolific than a few years ago. Perhaps it's actually that we have to work so much harder to get people to understand that not only do we know what we're talking about, sometimes *WE KNOW MORE.* I've been asked if I was an office manager, sales, a receptionist... All sorts. Things that my male colleagues have never had to deal with. 3. It is a cause for concern, if women are leaving just a little bit because of option two then dammit, something needs to change. I'm tired of the seemingly prevelant attitudes of the above comments peppering my career. I have boobies, get over it. There is no reason I should be treated any differently. That needs to be looked at very closely. 4. I hope this kind of crappy journalism continues. It makes me seem even more special than I already am. {If I had a sig, it would include some amusing comment about vi. However, I gave up on sigs years ago.)
The number of men teaching 4th grade has dropped to 15% in recent years... Men and women just choose different careers. It's 75% men at tech schools and 75% women at liberal arts schools.
The women have walked out because IT is mostly a rapid-obsolescing underpaid career path these days. The women have gone to greener pastures, because they could afford to be choosy.
This is not a signature.
I think you're right, but you those types of positions are not developer positions. They're not system/network support, and they're not QA/Test.
If you haven't spent the time messing around with the system, tweaking the system, finding it's strengths and limitations, you're not going to be an expert. It's the same thing with cars, the better mechanic is almost always the one that screwed around with cars just for the hell of it.
The people who are passionate about a subject are better at it than those who are not. In the experience of many that post here, this seems to them to be male. In my experience, it's both, but usually in much different areas. Overall, more men went with math/science and more women went with creative/artistic. Perhaps that's just societal norms? It doesn't matter for this discussion.
So there's a large number of women leaving? Perhaps the industry just purged the slackers and the hangers-on that got in just for a quick buck. Regardless, get rid of the unqualified people and who's left will, overall, be more intelligent and more competent.
What I learned of basic psychology stated that men are "task oriented" while women are "relationship oriented" (this DOES NOT mean they are looking for a relationship). What it does mean is that men will focus down on one point, while women are better able to see the big picture. Each type has a place in IT, however, many older, upper level IT management types, who are typically men, prefer the men who focus on one task at a time. Why? Because they, as managers, are supposed to look at the big picture, and the women in the ranks who see the big picture make them feel threatened! This leads to them taking a better view of the men in their department, and overlooking the women's skills...and the women get tired of this and leave. I have seen this happen over and over in businesses, both where I work and with customers I support...
According to the article, women made up 41% of the I.T workforce in 1996. That number dropped to 35% by 2002 and that "the downward spiral is gaining momentum." While this is certainly a concern, what are the overall effects of such a mass departure?"
-Less sexual harrassment law suits?
-Increased Internet p0rn usage?
-Men caring less about how they look at work?
-Women who are happier because they do not have men drooling over them at work?
It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change.
I went into I.T. because I loved it. And I still do it as a hobby. This crap about women just doing it for the money and being unsuited for the job is really just that - crap.
Frankly, most of the guys I went to university with were "just doing it for the money" - how this now comes to be thought of as a female thing I don't know.
And women going to school in CS just to get married? Don't get me wrong, my partner's a geek, but I think you're barking up the wrong tree on that one. If you're that obsessed with marriage, you're going to pick a much more socially-adjusted crowd. Seriously.
The real reason I'm not working in I.T. anymore is that one can only take so much of the technopeniswaving that goes on between the guys at the office before you realize that it's being made very clear that you're not a welcome part of the club, regardless of skill level. And some of us, fools, are pretty smart cookies.
I'll do my coding at home, where the code monkeys are less likely to throw feces. :)
>What is a concern is if they're leaving because they're being driven out
>by sexist attitudes or working conditions
This is complete BS FUD in the USA.
The working conditions are the same for both men and women.
The facts are
a. More men enter the field
b. Less women enter the field
c. The IT workforce can be made up by people
that try to work in IT and therefore it
will not represent the general population.
How about comparing IT to industries that have many more women than men such as Nursing and Teaching?
You'd find it difficult to find news articles complaining about a lack of diversity in Nursing and Teaching.
All the women left the coal mining.
Exactly how is this a "concern"?
Women are free to choose an IT career if they wish.
Perhaps there should be a percentage of women forced into "IT servitude" if enough don't volunteer!
This is only a concern to "Social Engineers".
"3 of the best programmers I know are women."
I assume you know 3 programmers
"That includes my boss, and 2 people that went through the CS curriculum with me."
So you all suck at programming. What conclusion can we draw from that?
which branches of IT? Programming? MSFT Office pro aka glorified secretary? Network engineer? There's a lot of positions that have been labled as "IT" that really aren't rather they're just a skill to an already existing job and now they may be getting properly labled titles. - When this happens its called "phantom jobs" and can skew the numbers making it look like positions have been lost when really they havn't. (sort of like Clinton's "Budget cuts" which was just shifting money from one category to another).
Finally us MEN can do things the right way without the intervention of Vemon... err I mean Women!
And not qualified for an IT position. There is much more to IT than the tech smarts.
For he today that sheds his blood with me shall be my brother.
This means that there is going to be even less eye candy in the computer lab... :(
Aggies
"One of the best Un*x sys admins I know is a woman, who also happens to have a doctorate in math."
So somebody really good in math is doing sysadmin work?
Dude, a couple things here, no troll intended:
1) If somebody with a PhD in math is being a sysadmin, they're not really good at math. They're probably pretty good, but not really good.
2) Sysadmin's are marginally a part of IT. Its rote work that is done over and over again.
3) What good does "I know a women who..." do when we're discussing a statistical problem? My wife is really good at computers, but that doesn't mean all women are. Hell, I work in IT, and 9 out of 10 guys are crap as well, they just don't know it.
When people start worrying that there aren't enough men going in the dental hygienist field (I've never in all my life seen one), I'll start worrying about the lack of women in IT.
--Good morning fellas; Hand me that thing; Boy, this work's hard; Guys, break's over.
And before you rant off about women again...I am MALE.
Your whole premise is based on your wife staying at home, keeping the home together, paying the bills, doing everything you don't (because you work late), and not having a husband.
Keeping a house takes about 25 hours per week (3 BR/2.5 bath) without kids. Things get exponentially more time-consuming (unless you wish to abandon your kids) with rugrats of any age (newborn to teens in college).
I don't see my fellow male workers volunteering to stay home, or do the housework and chores, and telling their bosses "I've got other stuff to do".
WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU SAW A MAN BOLT AT 5:50 PM TO GET THEIR CHILD OUT OF DAYCARE BEFORE THE 6 PM CLOSING? This doesn't happen two or three times on a week on a regular basis. The old factory whistle just doesn't blow at 5 PM like it used to.
Guys would rather play with computers (aka TOYS) than do housework, dishes, yardwork, home repairs, pick up the kids, go to PTA meetings, watch their kids grow up. Heck, I don't want to clean bathrooms, kitchens, dishes, do yardwork, etc. but I'm not Bill Gates.
And why haven't we heard the L word (LAYOFFS)? The panicked attitude running around in the industry ("don't make waves, do what they ask, don't ask for time off, DO WHATEVER IT TAKES") instead of sticking with 8-hour days that typical project plans are based on is putting more stress on everybody. We all know that if we ask for time off, we risk losing our job. I recently took four days off due to cancer complications (my brother almost died) and received a letter of reprimand for taking the time off.
Please drop the "WHEN THE GOING GETS TOUGH, THE TOUGH GET GOING" attitude--that will look good on your early grave.
Fundamentally, IT folks are being pushed into outrageous (unpaid) overtime out of fear and women , especially married ones, have outside responsibilities that the male spouse won't share. And isn't interested in changing. Back in the 60's and 70's (and even the 50's, which you apparently think you are in), men worked 8-hour days and spent time with their wife and kids. Our fathers were more involved with us than we men are with out children. A telling sign.
If I saw women getting challenging assignments at the start of their careers to help them grow technically, having the same opportunities for advancement, and flexibility in work schedules I would expect that women would not be leaving IT.
Oh, and the drivel about "Family Friendly" is just that. Any employer who tells me that sets off my radar--the odds are they are lying and will lie on many other important things.
Supreme Granter of Doctor of Obviology Letters ("A FIRM Command of the Obvious")
being in comp sci i can offer three localised observations. the student body is mostly men.
the tiny miniority - women.
99% of the females i have encounterd on our course
are women who really have no clue or care about computer science. or computing.
the women i have met 'in the field' have been perhaps without doubt the most brilliant and promising young computer scientists i have met thusfar.
qunatum computing, crytpography genral Comp sci.
[alot of their research wnet wya over my head!]
one can therefore construct two distinct possibilities.
1/women initially take IT for the money.[ie tey go where the money is . look at how law is subscribed to]
amnd therefore are now leaving as the industry delcines.
2/ it is STILL VERY difficult for women to get into IT. therfore the ones that do pursue this career and get anywhere will be so be brilliant
that the factors are easily overcome.
As much as I love women (after all, I'm a man) why is it a concern that women might prefer work that's a little less tedious and a little more rewarding. Maybe we should worry a little bit more about improving the quality of IT jobs and software engineering jobs in particular rather than sexist or racist issues of why we don't have equal numbers of every sexual and ethnic group in IT jobs. Is it a concern that most garbage collectors are men????
This whole discussion is a waste of time. I bet woman are generally not as good in IT because they generally are not as interested in IT as men. So be it.
The reason I left , along with other female friends , was because Clinton ruined the sexual harassment scam we had going. Up till then , at least for a while we were in charge, and had castrated males if you remember. Then Clinton showed the world that a sexual harassment *claim* not only didn't mean summary career death, but hey, was kinda cool.
www.backlash.com and www.savethemales.ca were all set up during this spooky era where we could use the sexual harassment *threat* to get further in companies.
Now it appears that the glass ceiling is back, and is once again being used to see up our skirts. We've been shown who's boss and have decided to accept defeat and move on to other more female friendly careers (like nursing), and what's wrong with that?
I haven't left IT comletely, as I have a home PC which I use to gossip with other women using IM and skype, which is no different to how it used to be in the office of course.
I think it's the swing of the pendulum after a huge push to get women into the marketplace. Many of those women, just like my wife, are starting to realize the magnitude of the personal sacrifice they have made by going into the workplace. Family life suffers. It's tougher to have children and spend the time with them that they'd like. Yes it's different for each person, but many dual income families do not NEED a second income and they're realizing that they're in their mid-30s and still don't have children. So faced with these realities during a market and jobs downturn, is it really that strange that women may choose different careers or even choose to stay at home and raise their children?
I've met far fewer women doing IT here in the UK than men. I'd bet good money (if I had it) that the % of women in UK IT is much lower than in the US.
Why? IMHO those [women] that I've met in IT are very competent and good at their jobs. But I've not met any yet live IT . Doing the job 9 to 5 is all well and good, but I've yet to meet a woman who does this kind of thing in her spare time. The sort of thing we all do, home projects, fun hacks and the like. I think there are women out there like that but not as common as the men like that.
I suspect a strong correlation can be found by looking at the management style of the organization. I would hypothesize that where the management style tended to be "command and control", women who stay with it would be proportionally much lower than in more collegial environments.
Why is it always a concern when there are insufficient women in, or entering, a traditionally male dominated field? Is it not possible to let women naturally choose to join the field they wish?
When I was in university (88-92) there was a huge drive on to bring women into engineering. Scholarships and reduced entrance grade averages were used to attract them. This kind of discrimination against males was all the rage (and continues in some quarters still) during that time period. I've often wondered what, 15 years later, the outcome was. Is the engineering field better in some way than it was prior to massively (and I would argue, artifically) raising the number of females in that area of study?
... given the, shall we say, "quality" (overall) of the males working in the industry, and the quality of the environment which they engender (no pun intended). Words and phrases like mysogenistic, "emotionally stunted", and "a large number of them are more like freaks, NOT REAL geeks", come to mind.
I say all this as a guy working in the industry. Some of the total losers I have to deal with in the run of a day just make me shake my head.
I know that if the four women who work opposite me were to leave, productivity in this office would increase markedly. This is despite them being some of the more productive people here. The amount of time invested by the men in the office in chatting them up, checking them out and generally trying to be around them is quite astonishing, at all levels of the organisation. I'm convinced, in fact, that they use their bodies to distract their competition and hence, further their careers.
;-)
Of course, I'd rather have the view than the extra productivity...
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.
I knocked em all up so now they are staying home
Oops, my Bad!
I think that the real cause of the female IT exodus is twofold: The first is that the money is no longer there. Fortunately, this means that IT candidates now are likely more dedicated. On the other hand, that means homogeneity... you only get those that are dedicated in the field, and that seems to consist almost entirely of males. Additionally, there is a social stigma associated with these sorts of fields... or, for that matter, demonstrating rational intelligence at all. Women are expected to be nurturers because that is what society expects of them, not because of any significant innate difference. Likewise, men are supposed to be the rational protectors and financial supporters. For a woman to defy what her peers may think of her in order to pursue the field that she really wants to is rare. Then again, how many male nurses do you know?
Less sex for IT guys?
"Certainly a concern"? Are you sexist? If not, then should it matter how many women are working in I.T.? As long as both have equal opportunities to be hired by means of qualifications, then I don't see a problem. I'd rather have people that really want to work in the field, than forcing an equal ratio of both males and females.
It's not avoiding sexism by making sure the jobs are split %50/%50, it is sexism when you do that, because you are discriminating really qualified people of a certain sex when its %50 is filled, just because you want to hire someone of the other sex, even if they are lazy--non efficient--asses, just to be seen as "Non Sexist".
I'm a signature virus. Please copy me to your signature so I can replicate.
I think it's a lot more likely that women are leaving IT because of attitudes like this.
-mkb
so why is this an issue? if people dont want to be in a certain profession then why try to make people join it? its just if the people leaving a profession happen to be majorly women or minorities everyone thinks its a problem that needs to be addressed...
its not... its just the way of things...
i can come up with several reasons why my career is taking me ever more into the business side of the aisle, away from the geek cubes::
First, I've still never met another female software architect. People like to work with people who are like them. It gives them more to talk about than just "the code". It's hard to make friends at work when you're surrounded by mostly men. Everyone thinks you're "more than friends".
Second, IT managers tend to have less "soft skills" than their business-side counterparts. Face it, we live in a world where women do the lion's share of child-raising. If my manager isn't sensitive about the time I *need* to be away from work cos school is closing early, then I'm going to be less happy on the job.
Third, IT managers tend to be male (as are most IT workers). Managers like to promote people who are like them. It's been hard for me in some organizations to envision a good career path.
Lastly, it sucks sometimes to be in meetings and be the only woman there. Yes, that can be a point of pride, but it's not always a comfortable feeling.
I'm not going to touch most of your statement, but to say that computers are way harder now than 10 years ago is not true. Windows, MacOS, and even linux have spent that time moving more of the archane stuff away from the users (and even sysadmin's) fingertips and wrapping them in wizards and other "easy" ways of making stuff work.
It wasn't windows 95, but I remember tweaking config.sys and autoexec.bat files in DOS to try to get more conventional memory free - now that is something that you don't even think about!
A fine is a tax you pay for doing wrong and a tax is a fine you pay for doing all right.
"Women Leaving I.T. - what are the overall effects of such a mass departure?"
fewer complaints about bikini-babe desktop wallpaper.
if i'm a grammar nazi, you're an illiteracy nazi.
I don't understand what all of the fuss is about. If women make up 95% or 5% who cares. If as a rule people who consider themselves female also do not feel like they want to go into IT that is their perogative. Just like if people who consider themselves male also do not feel like they want to go into IT who cares. The idea is that everyone has a choice, we can't (or at least shouldn't) as a society make career choices for people, the Soviets tried that and we see how well that worked. In any society that is free and open people are going to make choices and with those choices their will be certain profiles of people that are likely to lean toward certain choices.
What the hell does it matter anyway?!
It's not that we need more women in IT. What we need is more people that know just a bit more about computers than that if they go wrong, all you need to do is turn the power off and back on again, and if that doesn't work you need to reinstall Windows, but that means losing all your work. I don't care whether they're women, men or trained monkeys {in fact, you probably could train a monkey to reboot a Windows box}.
There is only one reason why you should care what lies between another person's legs: because you are intending to have sexual relations with them. Even then, some people would say you're just being too fussy by half.
Sometime somebody somewhere had an idea that we need more women in certain fields. So the idea was born of preferring to employ a woman who might not be the best match for a job over a man who would be a better match, because of her sex: it simply looked better on the statistics {and therefore probably helped conceal some other problem that may have been present}. This in turn bred a resentment of women, who were seen -- rightly or wrongly, but unfortunately, mostly rightly -- as only having to do a job half as good as a man to be thought twice as good. This "artificial" resentment is greater than any "natural", background resentment that may have been present. People do actually tend to respect others who are good at their jobs, in the absence of any compelling reason not to, such as unfairly favourable treatment by management.
The fact is that in a truly non-sexist society, nobody would be bothered what percentage of the workforce in any given field of endeavour was of what sex. Since we do have people who are bothered, that just goes to show we have a sexist society. That's a problem that doesn't have any quick solutions, I'm afraid.
Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
I hope that you're not serious, anyone who would leave their chosen career field because someone else didn't think that they could cut it is a very weak person indeed. I really hope that you'd give women more credit than this.
After watching my mom go back to school and work her ass off for what she wanted I'm offended when I hear statements like this.
Those who know, do not speak. Those who speak, do not know. ~Lao Tzu
A story not typical of the female math students that I have known.
The (male) professor with the office next to mine had a failing female math student come to his office towards the end of the semester.
She discussed her grades,(lack of) homework, the fact that she was failing and that she'd probably have to take the class again next semester.
Then she (student) leaned forward and looked at him (professor), and said, "I would do ANYTHING to pass." And she meant the implied suggestion.
The professor's response?
"How about trying homework and studying next semester."
Exam 4/C again. Maybe I'll do better this time.
After reading the article and the coments, and observing the general theme that comments to any gender-related debate on /. follow, I have to wonder how much of this issue is specific to the US - and how much of it is due to social conservativism.
I keep reading anecdotes about female techies experiencing discrimination from clients and coworkers - people not believing that they were really techies, people assuming that they were incompetent, etc.
I live in South Africa and I'm a female programmer. I work in a small company which has a pleasant, informal atmosphere blissfully free of corporate BS, and I live in Cape Town, which is probably the most liberal city in SA. On the basis of what I have observed of mainstream US culture (and I admit that I am not an expert), we are considerably more socially progressive.
I have never experienced any of the problems I have seen described. Not once. Never ever. In my entire university and work career, in fact. I have never had my abilities questioned or been treated like a moron because I am a woman, by clients or by other technical staff. My gender has never been a big deal.
So I'm curious... what do programmers in other areas think? Are there many female programmers where you are? Do you think your work atmosphere is hostile to women? How progressive would you say your part of the world is?
What about the other areas of I.T.?
I, too, have had the experience of working with several female software developers who definitely knew what they were doing.
Unfortunately, in 14 years of working in I.T. and computers, I have yet to see even *one* woman who was what I'd call a "seasoned, competent tech". In fact, I can count on one hand the number of female techs I've run across, period! (One was a lady sent out to our company by HP, to service a rack-mount NetServer. She had to ask our I.T. manager for help figuring out how to take it apart properly.) Another is a gal I met in an IRC chat room who got a job as a CompUSA technician. Frankly, she's an intellgent woman with good "people skills", and at least shows some interest in keeping a job in the "tech sector". But her skills as a PC tech are basically "I crash-course studied and finally passed my A-Plus certification, and my boyfriend taught me a bunch of stuff in the last year or so."
Again, I'm not in a position to offer some sort of "concrete numbers" on any of this. (Hey, sorry, but I don't happen to run a marketing research firm or anything!) But neither am I willing to just discount "anecdotal evidence" as meaningless, when it's what I've seen over this long a time period working in this particular field.
Truthfully, I think in fields where women are the minority, they've got a bit of an unfair advantage if they really want to stick with things and become good at what they do. (I learned this lesson way back in high-school when I took a "power tech" class. There was only one woman in the class, and though she came into it knowing pretty much zero about cars/engine work - she always had at least 5 or 6 guys more than eager to show her how something worked, or help her with assignments. Know what though? She still dropped out in the middle of the class. There's little doubt she would have gotten an A if she stuck with it.)
I think women shy away from/lack interest in the more "hands-on" jobs when they venture outside the areas they've grown up with. Like anything, there will always be exceptions - but think of what you've observered in your own lives. How many female plumbers, auto mechanics, carpenters, computer technicians, or heating and cooling techs have you run across?
Software development/programming is much less of a job physical in nature, so it makes sense to me that I'd see relatively more women in that job role.
I'm not sure that I'd say women are "better in less geeky programming, where it is more business oriented," but I would say that (in general) women I've known tend to prefer that end of the field. Maybe it's a desire to not have to spend their evenings learning new languages and technologies; maybe it's just less of an interest in pure technology and a predisposition toward seeing tech as just a tool for getting other things done; maybe it's something else entirely. But in my experience, the pattern does seem to exist. That generalization doesn't apply to me. I strongly prefer the "more geeky" hackerish stuff that requires keeping up with tech; it appeals to my curiosity about how things work. Nevertheless, the generalization has affected my career, because it's a perception many of my managers have had over the years. To be fair, my career does span two decades, and I started out in the southeast US, an area not well-known for progressive attitudes towards women in the work force. Lately, I've seen MUCH less of this, though perhaps it's because I'm now on the West Coast.
The experience I gained for myself in school included UNIX file systems kernel work, IBM mainframe data communications and systems-programming-level assembler, writing an ancient commercial computer game, etc. I spent my vacations paying my own way to Usenix UNIX research conferences and my spare student cash on a Compuserve connection and the PC Pursuit service (cheap long distance for calling BBSes) in the pre-Internet days. When I got out into the real world: "no, we don't think you're right for this systems position, how about this COBOL application development group?", (I was far better, and more experienced, at OS internals in C or assembly than I was at COBOL) "we need someone with your expertise in user interface design," (huh? I had none), etc. An astonishing percentage of the time, companies have steered me toward work in business applications even when I demonstrated more aptitutde and interest in other areas of computing. One choice quote: "Oh, honey, you don't want to spend your days lugging 50 pound servers around." Reality: I have found it frustrating to work in the same business apps development environment for very long. After a very short period of "learning the environment", my work consisted largely of tediously lining fields up on grids and populating database schema, NOT learning about technology or improving/challenging my dev skills (companies specifically didn't want new technologies used in their apps because then, horrors, my coworkers would have to LEARN them!). At one place of employment, a small VAR, I referred a (less technical) male friend to my employer. Before I knew it, he was the organization's official customer engineer (a job function that previously occupied half my day), getting to do customer system configurations, on-site support, etc. I was only trotted out as a problem solver when customers had trouble with their installations, complained and specifically requested my presence, having heard through the grapevine that there was a girl at the company who really knew her stuff even though the company insisted my friend was their best techie. Other women I know have had similar experiences.
It wasn't until I hung out my own shingle and had right of refusal over EVERY project, that I was able to lead my career away from that.
This is applicable to the slashdot crowd because I'd like to encourage folks to take an open mind toward the women you encounter in tech. Some of us have wired our homes with X-10 gear, read OS source code with breakfast and yes, even have a history of butting heads with school admins over learning activities they insisted
Lemme tell you why I also don't believe the problem is as clear cut and biologic as you seem to think.
You see, as I've mentioned several times before, I happen to have some first hand experience with Eastern Europe during communism and the cold war. The funny thing about Soviet-style communism is that, at least in theory, they were really hammering on the gender equality idea. (Of course, theory and practice still often diverged nevertheless.)
And you know what? They had a _ton_ of good programmers that were women. Damn good programmers, in fact. Also a ton of physicsts, doctors, mathematicians, engineers, etc. And an almost 50-50 distribution in college students. Including, yes, in CS and electronics.
So the problem _is_ a social one, not some biologic/genetic pre-destination. (Unless you're willing to tell me that they had some rare genetic strain of women;) It's also a complex one. It can't be reduced strictly to "males are sexist", either.
For a start, there was no stigma in being good at maths or science. It was a pride. The whole social system artiffically put nerds at the top, and made sure they're much better paid than, say, plumbers are.
So there was a helluva lot of an economic incentive to actually become a doctor or an engineer, as opposed to just a pretty and popular airhead.
And the whole school system was a rather brutal exercise in selecting who can learn, from who can't. They didn't have some watered-down "science" class in school. They did physics, chemistry, and maths in high school at a level comparable to what you'd get in the USA only in a college of that profile. E.g., they actually learned quantum physics in high school.
The idea was not to have it all at a level where everyone can understand it. The idea was to filter those maybe 10% who can, from those who can't. Being among those who did, was seen as a thing of _pride_.
Also, their education really hammered on the idea of equality. E.g., in the USSR they had even books about female military heroes of WW2. The whole message was, "yes, you too can do everything that the guys can!"
So, on the whole, what we have here is a massive difference in social- and peer-pressure.
The girlfriend you base your generalization on, was told by society that _the_ way to go is to forget those childhood dreams of being a chemist or doctor, and just be a popular skinny airhead. That's the message we give to kids in the west.
On the other hand, the message they got back then and there, was the exact opposite. "Hang on to that dream. Fight your way uphil through the education system, and actually become that engineer or scientist or doctor. Being an intellectual is _good_."
Now don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that the Soviet-style society and enforcing an unnatural social structure, was viable. Their system did go bankrupt, after all.
But incidentally it also did show that, if given the proper motivation and peer-pressure, their women could and did make just as good programmers, engineers and scientists as the men.
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
That is why they abandon the prospects of sitting in front of the glowing screen all day.
Women need human contact. Men do too but they in their obsession to objectify everything and control everything they are (including me of course) trying to replace human contact with something to model, control, revise and improve upon...an HCI! HUMAN-COMPUTER-INTERFACE.
We need women back in the field to save ourselves from our sterile lifeless endeavours.
- these are not the droids you are looking for -
How about the fact that IT is not the glamorous field it used to be and women are smart enough to get out. Just a thought.... from a man nonetheless.
Just ask Lawrence Summers.
A marked decline in the sale of Hello Kitty laptops?
Average shirt size bought from Thinkgeek goes up a fraction?
Okay, so i'm the first 'barbie' to reply. I'm a 31 yr old female and i've worked in IT since 1998. As always, i'm in the minority as a chick, varying from 10% to 40% women of the workforce of the company (and the 40% was in a web/graphic design company). Don't forget that career choices are motivated by social stimulus and peer pressure which begin in the perambulator all the way thru educational career. It's still not hot for girls to go for science/technical careers. My dad always told me how good I was in languages. My tests showed that I had a natural affinity for mechanical insight. I ended up studying English lit. and autodidacted my way into IT. This illustrates how girls in general are hence less confident of their abilities. Recent studies actually promote the separate education of girls from boys in computer and science subjects at grade/primary school to counteract this not genetic, but social issue... Because of the growth in specialisms, and different programming languages, girls i reckon "perceive" IT to have become more difficult. And besides, how much fun is it to be the only girl out of a 100 geeks in CS? :)
Is it what it is. If women choose to opt out, for whatever reason, so what. Another example of trying to ascribe a problem to something where none exists.
-M
PS: My advice, unless you are active in an open source project, i.e. passionate, don't bother with any CS programs, guy or girl. One word - India.
The way I look at it is it doesn't necessarily mean that women have dropped out of I.T but there could be an increase in men into the I.T field which takes away from the women population thus lowering the percentage they have of the I.T workforce.
For example:
41/100: women are 41% where men are 59%.
41/117: women are 35% where men are 65%.
Same amount of women but just higher amount of men.
People should be allowed to do work at whatever they want to do without other people trying to make certain types of career "more attractive to women" whenever women don't represent 50% of the people in that occupation. If women are leaving IT, maybe it's because they have more sense.
Absolutely! Why stay on a career path that has little upside in these days of overseas outsourcing? IMHO, women tend to be smarter than men when it comes to quality of life issues. So if the environment of IT is also uninviting and insecure, leaving is one smart response. Personally, I'd love to see women stay in IT and for US IT to flourish once more, but it's a new world now and a new game.
To the making of books there is no end, so let's get started
Quote: "Of all of the classes 40 classes or so that I took in college, the professor never called on anybody, male or female. Professors spoke to large silent audiences of students"
You chose the wrong college.
I attended 4 colleges, and graduated from 3.
I also taught at 4 colleges.
I was a math major the whole way.
In all the classes that I took, taught and studied, the professors called on students. Most of them made a point to try to involve *all* the students in class discussions. Class discussion is a good way to get feedback on student learning and teaching effectiveness. (not the best way, but a good way, and the most immediate feedback possible)
A reality check for prospective college students: It may be worthwhile to know - as in see for yourself - what the teaching style of a college is before you spend your (or your parents', or taxpayers') money and your time on it.
Exam 4/C again. Maybe I'll do better this time.
As a female engineering student, I switched out of computer engineering and into electrical because of arrogant assholes like you.
At least in the electrical fields, I don't have to deal with a shitload of nitwits like you... I prefer befriending people with half a brain that can hack semiconductor physics..
Linux is supposed to be hard? Need I remind you that Unix has been around for far longer than windows?
Quite frankly, what's wrong with you that you can't figure out that women get out of this fields because of the idiotic people IN the field? Would you like to spend 10 hours a day around people that spend their time thinking about how fucking brilliant they are that they don't need to use their brains?
It's discouraging to be stereotyped as less skilled than the typical male doing the same job, and you have to really have a passion for the field to keep at it and work to overcome the stereotypes (rather than going into a line of work in which you feel more welcome).
So women currently make up about a third of the current IT workforce? WhereTF are they? It's a tenth at most around here, and most other places I've seen. There must be some very woman filled places elsewhere to balance it out; but where?
I mod down anyone who says "I will be modded down for this", regardless of the rest of their comment
How is this unique to IT ? I hadn't noticed that working at a terminal was specific to the IT sector. Do they still write letters with IBM typewriters in secretarial jobs ?
I hadn't noticed that seats had been specifically designed for the IT sector which were more geared towards male anatomy.
Oh wait ...
Hopefully this problem can be addressed in the future through stem cell research and genetic therapy.
Well, I'm sorry you're offended, but if people constantly get brushed off there's often a limit to their patience.
Not everyone is as tenacious as your mother. Having work done for you and having people treat you like you're a "special person" is a pretty bad impression, and if a woman wasn't set on an IT career that could turn her off.
Hell, idiot geek students almost turned me to another major. When it looks like you will have to probably spend the rest of your life with people you can't stand, you start looking for alternatives.
-mkb
Kill off all the geeks who can't help but make comments like this every time women are mentioned, and IT will drive away fewer women.
The creepy hormone-ghoul thing will only get you so far with people.
And besides, how much fun is it to be the only girl out of a 100 geeks in CS? :)
Well, it's great if you want attention, I suppose. I'd rather be the one dude in a French class...
-mkb
If this is real it is good for the next generations. IT is just too stressful for would-be mothers.
Oh wait, women in the First World don't want to be mothers until they're rich or realised or what not, and then only one child... don't worry, in a few generations the Third World will take over by sheer numbers. Remember, the Barbarians did that to Rome once, we'll do it again.
Leandro Guimarães Faria Corcete DUTRA
DA, DBA, SysAdmin, Data Modeller
GNU Project, Debian GNU/Lin
And I was SOOOo looking forward to there being more geek women so that maybe, someday, I could find one to tolerate me :(
While this is certainly a concern, what are the overall effects of such a mass departure? So women are leaving IT: big deal. Why is it a concern when women leave a particular segment of the workforce? All long as the work is getting done, who cares? The hype on "women's issues" is a politically correct fad. For example, breast cancer. It seems that a week rarely goes by without some mention of breast cancer on the news, especially on the airhead morning news shows. What about prostate cancer, testicular cancer, etc.? You don't see guys running around sticking prostate-cancer ribbons on everybody, but woe to the one who refuses a breast-cancer ribbon. Come on, ladies. Get over yourselves! Wonder Rant powers, deactivate!
Agreed.
Honestly, the answer to the question of precisely why there are so few women in computer science, physics, math completely eludes me. I'd really like to know why. I can't find any one good reason why not, and nobody else seems to be able to agree on a reason either.
Maybe it's a combination of everything. Overall, women and men do seem to have different distributions of personalities, aptitudes for certain skills, etc., just as any two distinct groups will. You can just as easily qualitatively compare the residents of two cities or Americans vs. Canadians, or anything else.
But it's always hard to point out some specific REASON that would explain the differences, be it genetic or upbringing or social expectations or hormonal or anything else. Maybe the fact that these distributions change over time serves as some sort of hint. Say, I haven't heard of many women physicists a hundred years ago, but today we at least have some.
From personal experience, though, I've observed that a sort of segmentation of the mind, whereby one can think about something while completely forgetting everything else (e.g., the ability to concentrate on a math problem after a nasty fight with your best friend) seems to be more common in men. I really might be wrong. But not being able escape your personal life while concentrating on hard abstract problems would make a technical profession rather frustrating, I think. Just a guess, maybe.
...that women who decided not to enter the IT field may know something that the rest of us haven't figured out yet?
Because men are made to feel like outcasts in earlier years when they express an interest in anything computer related. In highschool, everyone talks about "I'm gong to be a doctor...I'm going to be a teacher...I'm going to go do blahblhablah"...and when the guy says "I'm going into computer engineering", if there isn't an awkward silence (best case scenario), then they are laughed and made fun of.
This happened so much at my school (and not just the girls laughing, the guys too) that I had to hide my intentions until have I left to go to school so I wouldn't be subject to the constant teasing and harassment. I had all the "popular" friends, and didn't have the look that most people would assume geeks had. But because of the way geeks that I was friends with were treated, I had to lay low. Now? I have my BS and MS in 5 years, I'm getting married in about 6 months to a fine-ass girl, have a nice job with a defense contractor, and am making money hand over fist...while the laughers are bagging my groceries...ahh, life is grand....so women, if you want to be in IT, then do it, but don't let 'Society' tell you not to, and don't shun the quiet guy in school because it's not the popular route to go (besides which, most can barely tie their shoes, let alone try and get into med-school).
What is this 'women' thing the article and summary talk about? Is this a Microsoft product?
These aren't the sigs you're looking for.
I am currently in a Cisco Networking Academy program for highschool students, and from what I know, there has only been two girls in the class, the rest have dropped out in the first week of school because the majority of the class is guys. I personally think it is important to have women in the workplace and in schools -- especially in school -- because you watch your manners and what you will need for future employment oppurtunities.
Posts not to be taken literally. Almost everything is sarcasm.
I was the tech manager at a network support company that went onsite to businesses on a daily basis. I was in charge of hiring new techs. Since I was in the field all day also, the president of the company, a woman, would receive the resumes and hand me the one's she thought were worth looking at. Every once in a while, she would say that she had included a resume from a woman in the stack but told me to disregard if I wanted to because the never worked out. She was a strong feminist but also believed that IT was a man's profession and women didn't have what it took to do the job. Embarrassingly I also agreed with her because I felt the same way from experience. I don't consider myself sexist, but in this case she and I both were.
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
In 1998, I knew a woman with 22 years experience as a nurse, who wanted to get into IT. Unimaginable now. In 2001, I knew a woman programmer, who got laid off and went back to accounting.
During the boom, virtually anybody could work in IT. After the boom, you had to know your stuff. My guess is, that after the boom the re-treds, both male and female, went back to their old professions. Leaving the field as it was before the boom - predominately male. In fact, often the same males who were there before the boom.
Don't forget the nightmare that is Sarbanes-Oxley (sp?), add in the Byzantine politics, and the fact that it seems that the only IT jobs left in the Continental US (at least at my Fortune 100 employer) are support with the attendant off-shift calls and user demands to be at your desk 12 hours a day.
The accountants are working eight hours on a really busy day, they get to pick their hours (which is why our day is so long, to cover the spread), and their areas give promotions about every two years and raises annually.
There is no wonder in my mind why anyone would leave IT. Except that financial instruments make my brain hurt, I would go back to my true calling and be an engineer again except that that group got outsourced first (watch out if you work in a company where an accountant gains high office, all those years of professional envy can decimate the money earning future). I'm heading for the exit as soon as I can.
3. They married the billionaire CEO and quit working
2. They went back to grad school to shut that Harvard guy up
1. They got tired of being asked to dress up as "7 of 9" every Halloween.
I might know what I'm talkin' about, but then again, this is Slashdot...
Stereotypes seem to be prevalent in our society. A lot of people have to fight hard to prove that they can do the job while some are assumed to be able to do it, and these assumptions do not always agree with the results.
I've seen employers expect less of people based on sex, age, race, nationality, etc. I'm lucky enough to be a white (mostly... a little Asian, but most people don't seem to notice) male, but unfortunately too young. I'm 21, and I generally get the feeling that my bosses are surprised whenever I deliver any results, whereas the older people in our company are generally assumed to be exeprienced professionals, yet not all of them are necessarily that good at what they do.
Just trying to give this discussion a little perspective. The world isn't fair. Doesn't mean we shouldn't do anything about it though.
I'll second that emotion. The most bothersome part of being a CS major for me has always been the abrasive people (from the cocky know-it-alls to the "If it doesn't have a keyboard, I want nothing to do with it" types). It's discouraging, but as bad as it can get for me, I could imagine it being all the more difficult for a woman who has to put up with getting constantly ogled by what, in my school (U of Michigan), is a predominantly male population as well.
Not more than you need, just more than you want
Is that immigration and outsourcing are being felt. Immigrant (visa based) IT professionals are more like to come from more traditional cultures. The Germans, French and British have their own colleges, and their own IT industries.
As for the outsourcing, women in the last few decades definitely haven't pursued math/computer science degrees to the same degree as men. So they are more likely to be replaced, since they are less likely to be irreplaceable.
BTW, I thought the Harvard debate was bogus. Men and women ARE different, on average, and there are studies to prove it. Right now, women are more likely to go to college than men! To say that we're prejudiced because of so few women professors is to ignore that they have a much better chance than men to be professors in the future. Things are never going to be statistically equal, so we should just all calm down.
As far as I can tell women are more likely to be white collar professionals (I've never had a male boss) and will soon dominate the executive level- in time. In fact, I've seen a study where the supposed lower paychecks of women was entirely due to time spent on pregnancy. Not that discrimination doesn't occur, but that our society IS largely equal and with the lower numbers of men in college, we may even be swinging in the other direction. This has already occured among African Americans- women have better earning potential than men.
like to the other side of the screen. go pr0n!
Just leaves more rampant studmuffin for us real men, eh?
_O_
.|< The named which can be named is not the true named
Jesus man. How are you going to compare maternity leave to a guy getting hit by a car? I guarantee women have babies far more often than guys get hit by cars (unless the women are driving...).
Posts like this remind me how lucky I am to have my husband...
The last two months I was pregnant, I developed preeclampsia. My husband did all the housekeeping while I was on bed rest (working from bed, albeit).
After our son was born, my employer was screaming that I needed to get back to work. Our son came to work with me until he was four months old. Many evenings when I had to work late, my husband came to my office to pick up our son and take him home. After our son went into daycare, my husband got him ready in the morning and took him to daycare, so I could go into work early and get a ten-hour day in before it was time to pick our son up. If our son was sick, we alternated who took the day off (deadlines excepted).
I decided to quit my job and stay at home ("Family Friendly" not so friendly, intolerable employment conditions, crazy management, crazy hours, and what I see as an FDA crackdown waiting to happen - not to mention that I LIKE being able to be around to teach our son stuff instead of just watching what he learns from his daycare provider). I still do contract work on the side, around 20 hours a week, plus I'm kind of lazy about housework, leaving my husband plenty to do. My husband still pitches in around the house at least an hour or two a day, more on weekends. And he comes home every night and spends a couple of hours playing with our son so I can cook dinner (not a chore, a hobby and a nice transition from day to evening for me) or, if I have a deadline coming up, so I can work - and he will mind our son AND put dinner on the table if I don't have time. Plus he does his own contract work on the side - this gets done after our son goes to bed, or on weekends during naptimes or when my in-laws take our son for the weekend.
I think my husband probably puts in more time doing stuff around the house than many of his coworkers that have told him for years that "You won't have time to stay as up-to-date on tech stuff when (you have a kid/you have multiple kids/you have a house to maintain)." However, these are the same people who have told him "It gets really hard when your child is (insert age) - just you wait!" It's hard for him to keep from responding, "I'm sorry you don't like your kids, but I like mine." I think the time my husband puts in with our son has paid off - he is developing into a pretty well-mannered, well-spoken, respectful kid, for a 2.5 year old, anyway.
Plus, my husband still outshines most of his coworkers at their jobs.
I've told my female friends that geeks make the best husbands, but I'm going to have to qualify that after reading some of the misogyny posted here (I'm not referring to the parent poster). Guys, adjust your attitudes - if most of you were willing to do half of what my husband does, you'd have women falling all themselves to marry you.
Denver Isuzu Suzuki
Sure, the numbers look good going in: your choice of tons of guys with hardly any competition from other chicks.
Then you get there and see that although the choices are many, none of them are that appealing. Sort of like the menu at McDonald's.
For those of you that couldn't tell, this post has been a joke. With just a little bit of truth buried deep in the mix.
A very interesting comment. I would say roughly half of the people I've had working for me over the past few years have been women. Some were hard core Unix geeks (one was a Unix geek and held a Masters in Geology to boot) some liked networks, others were into programming. I really didn't (and still don't) make a distinction with gender when hiring new people or managing existing ones. I'm only interested in those folks who can do the job and work well in a team. Gender, ethnicity, religion etc etc I could care less about to be honest. What I did notice, however, is that *all* of the females working for me have come from other fields (Geology, Biochemistry, Neuroscience to name a few), whereas the fellas all came directly through CS or Engineering degrees. I'm not sure what that says about them or me, but it's a data point I guess. What all of the folks had in common (once again, regardless of gender) was that they were (and are) sharp as tacks. That has value.
Most of the women I know in the industry are in the graphic design side. Simply put, everybody was scurrying to gain web presence because it was the cool thing to do and would instantly boost revenue. Now that the trend has thankfully worn off (I mean why does a plumber need a website?) the demand for web designers has significantly declined.
Note: I'm not saying that women can't do more than make things pretty. I know some very talented she-nix admins, so don't go into that feministic guy bashing mode we all adore so much.
Never ascribe to malice what can be adequately attributed to ignorance. -Napoleon
I don't think we need statistical evidence that men are more likely to spend time fiddling with computers- honestly. Do we need evidence that women are more likely to have a Mary Kay party? Do you really need numbers to prove something we ALL should know on this website?
Second, you admit women are better at somethings, and men are better at others, so why whine about stereotypes? Stereotypes are sometimes right- you're using them. We shouldn't allow them to become prejudices, but we all use shortcuts like this in day to day life. That's why you assume women are better with customers.
I get turned off by the alpha male attitudes. Even on places like /., there's this low level one-upsmanship going on that really gets to me. I prefer to work in a collaborative environment, and viewing the world as a zero-sum game just turns me off.
I happen to be much more stubborn than the average woman, and so I stay in IT, but I see this whole attitude turn lots of talented women away.
Like I say, most women I've met are more business orientated and for a massive amount of work in programming in business, that's the most useful thing.
I've been in IT since the mid 80s, and recall things we used to do for data, like playing around with packing multiple flags into a single byte as bits. That took people being more clever with the code. I haven't done things like that for years - storage is just so cheap.
The biggest problem I see in software is understanding of user requirements. The closer that programmers can be to that, the more chance of a better solution.
I avoid optimisation for its own sake. Optimisation often means more code, or harder to understand code, and that means more expensive code. Sometimes, it's the right thing to do, though.
Ok, first of all, I call bullshit.... I don't know ANY male who is married and refuses to do his share of the household responsibilities. It is quite common. I can only speak for how it is here in my little corner of central Wisconsin but most of what I see are couples more or less sharing responsibilities. It might be different in other areas of the country. Sorry to rant but I am really getting sick of people generalizing about how people are by what country they live in. I am American. I don't sit around all day getting drunk and wearing a wife beater. I didn't vote for G.W. Bush. I don't drive an SUV. Generalizing like that is a form of prejudice no different than discriminating against someone on the grounds of their race, religion or sexual orientation. It's basically judging someone on something that they have no control over, Where they were born. Just because of what you see on the news. Believe it or not, people in America are just like everyone else in the world. They want to do the best they can for themselves and their families. Sure, there are some people who are shitty, self serving back stabbers but I hardly think that is a uniquely American phenomenon. America is not summed up by it's government. Take your head out of the sand and see people for who they are, not what their government does or doesn't do. And as for a 3 bedroom house taking 25 hours a week to maintain. What the fuck are you doing to it? Are you repainting it every week? I'm sorry, currently I am out of work because of a layoff and my fiancee (sp?) works. I take care of the house and all chores and I hardly have enough to fill 2 days of the week. Being that I am out of work I do all the housework and cook. I have no problem with that and anyone who does has problems.
Except that, in the fields of mathematics and logical thinking, the stereotype has been scientifically proven to be true in most cases. So, what we are seeing is exactly what we expect to see: some women in IT and many men in IT. This fits the distribution pattern as seen by years and years of aptitude tests.
Men and women's minds simply work differently. No amount of wishful thinking will ever make it otherwise. It comes to me as no surprise that there are more men in IT than women, not just because it has traditionally been a male-dominated career path, but also because men are simply better suited for it. Women excel in some areas of thinking, and men excel in others. IT just happens to land in the areas that men excel in, on average.
now computer nerds won't find girlfriends... just imagine it!!
on second thought... will anyone notice the difference?
From my CS engineering degree, of all the graduates, all of the girls were exceptional students and incredibly smart. While, among the men, there were more than one of those types you don't know how they got that diploma, and worry that in the future they will tarnish the school's rep.
Being an 'hostile environment', the ones that come through are usually more motivated than the men.
It's too bad I saw this story only now. I believe women are smarter than men, they know a sinking ship when they see one. Also, being a single woman is a lot easier than being a single man, men will find solace in playing with techno toys. Men are basically children with money. Women want to start families, they are more mature.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Some of us document our work. Not me, but I'm sure some of us do.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
What you're saying is that as Computer Science classes get harder, you find fewer and fewer women who can hack it.
... what, exactly, to do with the topic under discussion?
Granted, I'm a female in engineering, not Computer Science, but I found this comment a little offensive.
Not everyone is as tenacious as your mother. Having work done for you and having people treat you like you're a "special person" is a pretty bad impression, and if a woman wasn't set on an IT career that could turn her off.
Huh? What exactly are you trying to say? Nobody treats me like I'm "a special person" because of my gender, and I do my own schoolwork. Really, the only difference is that I don't have to wait in line to use the bathroom.
Hell, idiot geek students almost turned me to another major. When it looks like you will have to probably spend the rest of your life with people you can't stand, you start looking for alternatives.
Which has
I have to say, I never had a problem meeting guys. Of course, I like geeks. (I am a female programmer)
But it can be overwhelming. Sometimes you just want to talk to someone who shares your gender.
I've been looking in vain here for a comment from a woman in IT, but haven't been able to find any. So I guess I'll have to speak up.
I'm not in IT - I'm a geologist. (I love, and work with, 'puters, though, that's why I'm here.) I think my field is analagous to IT, however - male dominated, with lots of passion and dedication necessary to keep up with trends and developments, lots of overtime, etc.
Although I think the statistical analysis in TFA was pretty poor, I think they did get across a trend that is not just affecting IT, but science and math as well. Women ARE leaving the sciences and IT in droves, and there's some head scratching going on all over the world to explain this.
As the article said, domestic responsibilities are a great and simple answer for this. As a woman, I've been told over and over again that you CAN juggle children and a career. They didn't tell us women that one - and usually both - priorities would probably suffer in the process. I think what we are seeing here is a social shift from women trying to juggle both to women realizing that you can have one or the other, but you can't have both and be the best you can be. But unfortunately, it's a two paycheck world. So what do these women do? Choose less challenging jobs.
However, I'd like to bring up a potentially inflammatory point. I work in the oil field. During the 90's, there was a huge push to even up equality in the oil patch and bring in women. I shrudder thinking about these women - heels, no coats, couldn't tell an oil trap from an Ackbar one. So great. Now, not only do I have to work against traditional male views about female usefulness, I have to work against the damage these women did to women. I know quite a few women - excellent geologists - who have left because they couldn't take it anymore. I'm wondering if the same thing happened in IT.
Yet I'm not going to complain about having to "prove myself." You get off a helicopter on an oil rig, it doesn't matter if you have 5 legs or you're a male - you're going to have to prove yourself no matter who you are. But it does get tiring having to prove yourself twice - that you know what you're doing, and that you're a women who knows what you're doing - and then not screwing it up for the other women out there.
I'm saying this here because this is a place I once saw someone refer to biology as a "chick science." There have been some excellent points brought up here today. But I guess you could also say the struggle continues.
It's discouraging, but as bad as it can get for me, I could imagine it being all the more difficult for a woman who has to put up with getting constantly ogled by what, in my school (U of Michigan), is a predominantly male population as well.
I don't know what U of Michigan is like, but here, nobody "oogles".
Although that might partly be because it's still snowing outside, so we're all wearing winter coats anyway...
A lot of my best maths and computing teachers were women.
:)
... tastes alright if you drown it in catchup" - she says.
That at UCL.
System's Analysis, Functional Programming and Calculus to cite a few.
Because it's been a while now - I can't find their personal pages.
So many great mathematicians were women so why do they shy away from computing?
I.T is dying collapsing we don't need an exodus right now.
So in future we will have what zero participation of women in Computing? Fine desert us!
Also I find women (imho) are much better than men at teaching, presentation and communication.
All of which very related to Computing.
The authors Linda Bostock and Sue Chandler are but one example that comes to mind.
Men are crap teachers mostly.
You often hear of a bad male teacher, but rarely a crap lady teacher.
There is only one thing us men do better than women.
And that is cooking
Get your girlfriend to cook for you and expect to eat overcooked burnt goo.
"Ahm
Apart from moral questions, it's not even productive. Find where people are good and work with their strengths.
Unfortunately, the way the human brain works more or less requires that we stereotype people. It's how we sort 'the world', post-descartes. The distinction people usually leave out is the implied preceding word 'negative'. I'd love to meet a person who doesn't expect anyone to act/exist in a certain way because of their outward appearance [be it positive, or negative]. Don't get me wrong, many people try very hard. It's an ideal, though, like the fully objective scientist.
See how you got bitchsmacked by the mods? You were just too agressive. You need to break up trolling posts with bits about how you really like whatever you are trolling, and you wish this weren't the way it is, but its just the facts. If you spend the entire post railing on women like that, it comes off as a really obvious troll. The linux bit was good though, keep that.
The problem with IT is that skills age quick and women are particularly vulnerable to losing their edge.
I've reached the point where I have a bunch of friends with young kids. When people have a gaggle of kids, one person, usually the mother either stays home or starts working part time to take care of the kids.
If you're out of the market for 3-4 years in IT, you're screwed.
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
My guess is that this is a side effect of the average age of IT people increasing as the field becomes less attractive to young people.
This would make sense if young IT people are more likely to be female than would older IT people and if the average age of IT people has in fact increased.
I can't speak for all women, but I got out of IT after graduating with a degree in EE. Why? Drumroll... I got married.
Most large companies have entry-level programs that force you to do a rotation at their company headquarters then be sent off to whereever in the world they need you. Unacceptible if you're married.
Most IT companies expect 50+ hour workweeks on average, and that's not including crunchtime. Unacceptible if you're married.
One day I'm going to want to have kids which might mean working part time at a company for years. And part time needs to mean part-time, not doing 50 hours of work in 35. I'm not saying those types of companies don't exist, but in IT they don't seem to be common.
And finally, when you're married it no longer seems like a good idea to take tons of risk hoping that your stock options appreciate before the market tanks. A regular paycheck is more important.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not bitter about this. Nor due I think this is due to prejudice. It makes sense for companies to organize around single men, as they are by far the majority of IT employees. My guess would be that this is what happens to a lot of women in IT. They're all set to be risk-taking, high-achieving CareerWomen(tm)... but eventually it would be nice to have a family too.
The odds are good, but the goods are odd.
- I don't need to go outside, my CRT tan'll do me just fine.
OMG! People looking down on you because you choose to be a geek! This has never happened before!
At the risk of summoning Jon Katz, most geeks have faced unpleasant attitdues, yet there are plenty of geeks left. I think we're seeing the passing of the brief fashionability of computer geek stuff. There's plenty of technical work that's not CS-related to choose from.
Are women leaving engineering as a broader trend? Or is this just a switch from CS to other engineering fields?
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
See ya Bitch.
Sometimes you just want to talk to someone who shares your gender. ...must resist off-color joke...
More jobs for the men!... err Domestic Male...
My sig is as boring as you...
There's a sort of mild autism that makes people a whole lot better at math-related fields. From this little we understnd about autism, it could well have a sex bias. I'd certainly like to know the answer myself, but as the president of Harvard demonstrated, one can't even *ask* the question in Academia today.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
It sounds like the woman is smarter IT-wise and in general. The guy sounds like your typical insecure tech guy, who doesn't really know much, so he acts like an abnoxious dickweed all the time, trying to impress on everyone the fact that he is smart. The more someone tries to show they are smart, the less smart they tend to be. The smartest people I've ever met have all been quick to say "I'm not sure", or "I don't have enough experience with that" or "I'll have to check and get back to you".
Granted, I'm a female in engineering, not Computer Science, but I found this comment a little offensive.
... what, exactly, to do with the topic under discussion?
Well, that's great, as I didn't make that comment.
Nobody treats me like I'm "a special person" because of my gender, and I do my own schoolwork. Really, the only difference is that I don't have to wait in line to use the bathroom.
OK, you got lucky. I've seen it. A lot.
Which has
It has to do with people not necessarily choosing a major because they were born a geek.
-mkb
First of all, I'd like to say a little bit about myself and what I've observed around me. I'm a second year student at Dalhousie University (that's in Halifax, if anyone cares), and I've only been an official computer science student for this past term. Before that, I was a biology major, so I'm really behind in my cs courses and have to take both first and second year classes concurrently. I've noticed that while my first year Java course has quite a number of girls in it, most of them are from other faculties and, quite frankly, wouldn't cut it in any IT-related field. These are the kinds of girls who got it into their miniscule brains sometime in highschool that boys only like stupid girly girls, so they seem to make a sincere effort to not learn anything about computers. In my second year classes, the girls are more like me -- perfectly ordinary geeks who just happen to like computers and want to learn more. Of course, there are far fewer girls in those second year classes because the aforementioned bimbo types have already been weeded out by the insurmountable challenge of writing a Hello World program in Java.
My question then becomes, how do we get more intelligent girls in computer science? Not just girls in general, but ones who actually have some kind of talent for it and aren't going to make the rest of us look bad with their antics. I don't think there's an easy answer to this, but I suspect that the current initiatives are doing more harm than good.
For example, when I see a job ad that says "We encourage minorities like blacks, Native Americans and women to apply!" I'm sitting there thinking to myself, "Uh... OVER 50% OF THE FREAKIN' POPULATION HERE! How the HELL are a minority?" But for some reason, we're treated as if we're some kind of endangered species. Doesn't it occur to anyone that we might not like that treatment? Doesn't it occur to anyone that we just want to be treated like ordinary human beings, no matter what's between our legs? I mean, I'm not going to refuse if somebody throws money at me for having a vagina and using a computer, but it's really not a good way to encourage other girls to join the field. It's hard to see myself as successful when I so often have to wonder if everything I've "achieved" is only because I'm female (and thus have to be specially encouraged and rewarded to keep me from running away.)
Oh, and another thing: I never see any similar initiatives to get more men into... say... nursing, or even regular biology. They're definitely in the minority, but either people are afraid of being called sexist for favouring the sex that's supposedly in power (even though it hasn't been for decades), or they've figured out that the best way to get men into something like nursing is NOT to say "Oh, don't worry! It's not just for women! You won't be less of a man if you're a nurse! Not feminine at all! Trust me!" because they know that any man will look at something like that and think to himself "So wait, nursing makes me gay?" thanks to the wonders of reverse psychology. I just wonder how long it will take for the faculty of computer science to figure that out as well...
(Yes, I know I'm bitter.)
"A signature always reveals a man's character - and sometimes even his name" - Evan Esar (1899-1995)
While I have no problem with women in the workplace, I do openly recognize the fundamental emotional and mental differences between men and women. Generally, women are less logic-oriented and more emotional-oriented than men. IT is a logic-oriented field. It makes sense that women wouldn't do particularly well in IT vs another field.
Maybe it's a desire to not have to spend their evenings learning new languages and technologies
Is that why I never get laid? because I spend all my evenings learning something new on the computer? Wow, I might have to actually go... outside *shudder* and do something instead of looking at pr0n and playing on my computers...
TFA used 1996 as the high point of women in IT. If I remember correctly, this was during the .com boom, where everyone and their sister was getting into "IT" because it was cool, you could make a lot of money as a web designer, and you could work from home. All these are thing that would skew the IT population away from its 'traditional' male domination. Now, after the .bomb, with tight IT budgets making managers want you in the office so they can keep an eye on you, salaries dropping, and fierce competition for scarce jobs, women are not getting into IT as much. Go figure.
Can you blame us for leaving? Female, 32, leaving IT for Sales...and cute guys who can talk. Tick tick tick tick...
But it can be overwhelming. Sometimes you just want to talk to someone who shares your gender.
*That's* propbably the important social phenomenon here! There's a certain arrogance that's required to be a good programmer IMO, to always think "it's software, nothing is impossible", and I'm not buying the other social arguments in this thread. If you have the confidence to do programming well, you're unlikely to be discouraged by idiots (heck, you'll never make it a year in a large IT shop if you're discouraged by idiots).
OTOH, having *some* ability to socialize at work is a pretty important requirement in life, and without a certain critical mass of women in the field, that could be quite a barrier.
There must be something else at work, however, as at least in my shop most of the female programmers choose the management career path, while most of the male programmers choose the tecnical track.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
Chicks don't dig Unix?
Assume I was drunk when I posted this.
Why are they leaving? They get paid more.
The women in the areas I work get paid about 20% more then the guys - mind you IT boss is a women and her boss is a women.
I am not complaining but the guys just have degrees and the women have techincal schooling so I can see why they get paid more.
Isn't that what college is all about ? (besides the education thingy)
music lover since 1969
They should be in the kitchen. baking me a PIE!
I have worked for the various government agencies and departments for 8 years now, and the number of women working in IT is definitely above average for the IT field. I attribute this to the fact that they are not being driven out of the field here. As a government employee, we have steady and predictable hours with little overtime. Vacation time is quite generous, and family related leave is available. These working conditions are not only attractive to women, but also to the men that I have worked with as well. I knew one guy who took a 20% pay cut (transferring to government from the private sector) so that he could have dinner with his family on a regular basis. I know another who is taking parental leave shortly so he can raise his daughter while his wife goes back to work early (in the private sector, she also works in IT).
I think the problem here is that the expected working conditions in the (North American private sector) IT field are atrocious. Long hours, unpaid overtime, arcane technology that is constantly changing is what's wrong with the IT industry. Women leaving the field in droves are just a symptom of a deeper running illness.
Just because you're the only dog in your local park, it doesn't mean you know Jack or shit.
'Gender' - the word doesn't mean what you think it means. Words have gender, people have sex.
Since your major is in Engineering, we'll assume that you were drunk through the liberal arts requirment.
... what, exactly, to do with the topic under discussion?"
Quote:"Hell, idiot geek students almost turned me to another major. When it looks like you will have to probably spend the rest of your life with people you can't stand, you start looking for alternatives.
Which has
A rather simple parse of the grandparents comment would lead to a probable conclusion that these "idiot geeks" would be co-workers in future career goals. Additionally, they'd also likely represent the usual members of the job skillset group. To whit, if the people you are currrently gaining an education beside are overwhelmingly annoying, you may want to try another career path with less idiots.
Now add to that the fabled geek social skills, and you may begin to understand why women may not want to put up with the morons. But you being an engineering major, already know what it's like to deal with socially moronic people. It beggars the imagination how you as a woman manage to deal with it. My hat's off to you.
P.S. Try to stay awake the next time you're in an english class. It'll immeasurably help your reading comprehension, even if it is **just** liberal arts crap. And yes, my spelling sucks.
in acadamia, as various schools try to pump up the number of women in computer science. As I recall, they found that men were likely to go into Comp Sci because they were interested in it and/or enjoyed it, whereas women were more likely to go into it for practical reasons. For example, the number of women that take CS courses because it will help them in whatever other discipline they are in was pretty high. There's also the fact that a great preponderance of CS profs are male. Now, I'm hardly a fan of sexism (otherwise called affirmative action by gender) in the professor selection process, but the likelihood of women going on to take more advanced CS courses was, if I recall correctly, heavily correlated with whether men or women taught their intro class. Of course, that's based on statistics at one institution, so it's probably a bit more complicated than that, but my bet would be there's still some correlation. I have no idea how the gender breakdown of intro course profs has shifted over the last few years, though.
If you think that being discriminated against means being given a comfy office job, you're waay off the mark.
;)
It more like means that is that you'll be pushed in a stereotypical, but crap paid job.
Like receptionist. Nothing says "equality" to some companies like having a black and/or woman as receptionist. It's right in the front, so, hey, everyone can see how equal they are to women and minorities.
Or like waitress, dish washer, supermarket cashier, etc. I think you'll find more women pegged in that kind of low-pay jobs than in offices.
And outcry about shortage of men in _crap_ high-stress low-pay jobs like teaching? Well, gee, that's so discriminated. I soo feel sorry for poor you, being denied that job and having to do with a high-paid office job instead.
Or nurses. Well, gee, males are so unfairly discriminated. They get to be the well paid doctors, while those lucky women get to change bedsheets and bedpans for a fraction of the pay.
I mean, gee, that must be as discriminated against as the whites were on the southern plantations. I mean, all those lucky blacks got dream jobs like picking cotton, while the poor whites were pegged into roles like plantation owners and merchants
That was some heavy sarcasm, if anyone can tell. And disgust.
Now seriously: If you think there's some sexist conspiracy that keeps you from teaching as a male, go apply for that job at some inner-city school. You might find that they'll take you in an instant, and noone will start harrassing you because you're male. And noone will ask stupid gender-related questions. Nor ask you to work twice as much as a woman teacher to be considered equal, in spite of your "obvious" gender handicap.
Dunno, whenever I see this kind of "waah, but they have all the (insert crap low-pay work) jobs" and "why don't they also take the (insert other crap line of work) jobs, then?" demagogue rhetoric, it just makes me wanna puke. I've heard it about women, I've heard it about blacks, I've heard it about foreigners, etc.
It invariably just means "but I really want to keep getting an undeserved privilege, not for any personal merits, but just because I happened to be born the right gender/race/nationality/whatever. And I'll scream and moan against any comparison of _merits_ and _skills_, instead of that undeserved privilege." Which is just disgusting.
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
...they made me nervous anyway. They kept wanting to talk and stuff.
You chose the wrong college.
I attended 4 colleges, and graduated from 3.
I also taught at 4 colleges.
I was a math major the whole way.
Well, those who can't do, teach....
The "problem" (perhaps phenomenon is a better word) extends far beyond IT. I come from an IT background, but its interesting to observe the distribution of women in my MBA classes. Marketing and HR classes are packed with women, while accounting, finance, and operations have precious few. The wildcard was Marketing Research, which is like marketing but with Math. Almost all guys. It's also easy to spot the MBA major of a woman (probably a man also) by how they look and how they are dressed, but I don't want to get TOO policially uncorrect right now!
I suspect that nobody really knows how many women do post on slashdot (least of all how many women actually read slashdot - good luck working that one out
Can't they tell from my IP? If IP standing up, I'm a male, if IP sitting down, I'm a female.
It's not offtopic, dumbass. It's orthogonal.
She has NO desire to go into IT. Nor do her friends.
Why?
These girls have seen all the "girls can do math/science" stuff their whole lives. They KNOW they can. They will take that else where.
When IT becomes people friendly, the women will come back. Many men are leaving for the same reasons.
Nope, sorry. First of all, IT isn't more difficult now then it was "back in the day". It's simpler. A lot of the stuff that had to be done manually, or fixed by trial-and-error back then, is automated today. Look at editing a net.cfg file compared to using DHCP for example. Same thing with what I do, database programming. MS Access is so much easier to use then Foxpro or Paradox, there's no comparison.
Women are leaving IT because the stereotype of male geeks being emotionally and socially immature is a lot closer to reality then the stereotype of females being unable to handle IT because it's "too difficult". And when you're a grownup, it can get a little tiring to work with children all the time, even if those children are the same age as you are chronologically.
Your post serves to illustrate the point nicely, and it doesn't really matter if you believe all that crap, or if you're sitting in your parents basement snickering about what a clever troll you are. Either way, it's stupid and immature. For further illumination, think about all the junk that gets posted on Slashdot. First posts, GNAA trolls, all the other stupid stuff. What percentage of that do you think comes from females? Yeah, probably pretty close to zero.
A helluva lot lower then the overall percentage of female posts on slashdot, to be sure. The question as to WHY that is will be left as an exercise for the reader.
Yeah, I've heard a lot of stupid people use that excuse, but I don't remember a good teacher that couldn't *do*, and the best teachers are nearly always those that can *do* well.
(This doesn't mean that you're stupid. You may just like repeating stupid jokes. I know that I do.)
I currently work as an actuary.
Exam 4/C again. Maybe I'll do better this time.
The percentage of nerds getting dates dropped by 50%
Can you offer some insight into why women's representation in IT is dropping these days, especially when it's never been as strong as men's representation? Or why you're in IT, despite the general trend?
--
make install -not war
You're missing the point. It's not simply that society at large looks down on geeks (yes, yes, we ALL have to deal with that), but that a lot of male geeks seem to think women are just too stupid to work with computers. Just look at that asshole who posted the original "It's just too hard for them" post: he pretty much says outright that women are good for cooking and babies and should leaved the heavy thinking to the men. That's the extra load that aspiring she-geeks have to deal with.
The media can't "mod someone down" even metaphorically - there's no way for them to express a negative opinion of someone without giving their target more press.
That explains a lot about public discourse, doesn't it? If you think Slashdot is bad now, imagine what it would be like if your negative moderation options became "+1, Flamebait" and "+1, Troll".
>>>Today, compters are WAY harder.>>Let's face it, as computers get more complex, we'll see fewer and fewer women getting involved. >>They're not good at math and science
Ada Byron, Admiral Grace Hopper, Sarah Blaffer-Hrdy, Mae Jemison amongst a host of others would beg to differ with you. We may not be *welcome* in math, science or computing but that doesn't mean we aren't good at it. It has been my experience that on *every* position I've held in this industry, inevitably, sometime in the first week, some bloke will come by my desk and throw out what he thinks is a hard question to test if I know enough to have my desk. In every one of those incidents I've answered and done so in depth. It is instructive to note that, to my observation, no man has been subjected to that kind of behavior.
People will gravitate where they feel welcome. In my biology classes, mostly I do not feel much hostility or 'what is she doing here' confusion but in my programming and math classes I do.
Now, on my job I have established myself as the go-to guru for all things Linux.
Largely, I expect my arguments to sail above your head and wing their way toward Southeast Asia where medeviel attitudes like yours are still held in mass, but you might surprise me. Of course, you may also be a troll.
Cheers
LF
âoeChange is caused by lazy, greedy, frightened people looking for easier, more profitable, and safer ways to do t
"women and men do seem to have different distributions of personalities, aptitudes for certain skills" This point says alot, I have always noticed that women and men tend to think differently about things. Men usually approach something with the 'how does this work' mentality. Women on the other hand look at it differently, i think most would ask themselves 'how does this affect life as a whole' or something more abstract. I can remember having this discussion with my wife, i've even noticed that the way she analyzes certain things is totally different than the way I would. It's just like they say in Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus. Men like to fix things, and thus want to know how they work. This is most likely why the IT profession is dominated by men. Now i realize that these are simply generalizations and don't apply to all men and women, but it seems like the majority of men and women fall into these two categories.
how many in IT are 25 to 35 now? Because that's the age when many people have kids now. My wife was in IT till our son was born. She's staying home with him. Although not as many moms stay home while the kids are in school, a lot more stay home with them for the first year or so.
About 45% are home atleast a year -- "55 percent of women who gave birth between July 1999 and July 2000 returned to the labor force within a year of having their babies". "Of the 41.8 million kids under 15 who lived with two parents last year, more than 25 percent had mothers who stayed home, according to a Census Bureau report."
Some might think this is a bad thing. But "You're not how much money you have in the bank."
And so am I.. welcome to the testosterone club, Scooter...
Then you're either lazy, incompetent, or a slob. My house is larger and I can keep it clean and maintained in less than half that time, with the ONE exception of when I replaced my roof last summer. (Southern Arizona in August.. yeeesh)...
My best friend does this on a daily basis, and fwiw he's in a somewhat demanding IT/accounting position.
Which is why I job shopped and took a pay cut for a more laid back position with better bennies. Sell the fucking Lexus and the town house. Buy a Toyota and that small brick cape cod and be happy.
Then leave IT. Seriously. I'm ex-military.. relevance? I know when to butch the fuck up and buckle down and when to move on. It is a boolean. Do I like what I'm doing? (T/F) Do I like where I'm working? (T/F) Any falses in there? Go manage a goddamn Target store and leave IT. Can't do it? Readjust your standard of living. Many times I find that IT'ers (including a number of my close friends) have hemmed themselves in by adopting a heavily material lifestyle.
Yeah, and in the nineteenth century we used child labor. It's called HISTORY. Either search for a different job, get out of IT, or STFU.. with the current US administration we'll be lucky to get off the hook with sixty hour weeks over the next few years. And oh yes, the reality is to find a decent job at lower pay with better treatment I had to
Oh horseshit. I've worked DOD contracts where they placed women into THE primo positions as to give them a leg up via experience, and eighty percent of the time they decided that the effort wasn't worth it and went on to either testing or tech writing.
Only the women sued or threatened to sue for wrongful termination. The suits never develop because of the careful procedures we have to go through with women -- everything is documented, warnings given, reviews had, 2nd & 3rd chances, transfers, etc.
The men, I could just go in and tell them their employment was not going to continue.
agreed, there are so many types of stereotypes in our society that dictate the way people think of others, etc.
That shouldn't sway IT women away, but sadly it does in some situations. Especially if they decide its just easier to do a different job and not deal with the generalizations.
Oh no! Women are smarter than men. Do they know something we don't? Do the women discuss I.T. doom in their secret meetings? Our best hope to become informed is that somewhere a man will happen upon a memo with "read once and destroy" stamped on it.
women made up 41% of the I.T workforce in 1996. That number dropped to 35% by 2002
In 1996, IT wasn't the hot sector it was about to become. People who worked in the field were genuinely interested in their work and doing it because they loved it. Between then and 2002, we had the dot-com boom, and a lot of get-rich-quick people who did IT for the big bucks. Sure, many of them got fired after the bust, but many stuck around until 2002 as well.
All these data say is more men than women entered the field during lucrative times. Whoop-dee-doo. No one necessarily has left.
I don't think that she wants that kind of attention.
Your comparison between the HTML skills of the .com era don't apply b/c HTML was just as foreign as perl/php these days.
You also make the generalization that men can't cook or take care of kids. Well listen of up fool, as a man, i can vouch that these are very easily accomplished. You'll learn one day...till then think about what you saying before you click 'submit'.
I hear you, i'm a guy, but a lot of my close female relatives tried to do CS but completely lost interest and were frankly a bit disgusted by the behavior of the geeks. D&D, porn, mysogny(sp?), and just bad hygiene in general. These things just do not exist, or exist in a very very small population of other majors. Does your average business school jock smell like he hasn't taken a shower for 3 days? I think that CS would get far more women involved if the men in the program would at least make a pretense to be "normal" - I know that is a lot to ask for some of us - there are many semi-savants I know in IT and it is medically/pscyhologically impossible for them to change their habits, but there u have it.
I'll buy that: the lack of opportunity to socalize *within* the geek community as a barrier. Having the broader community look down on you is just the norm. It's worth mentioning, however, that lots of geeks patronize *all* newbies, however. It's just as bad coming into programming from QA or tech support. Sadly, it's a field with poor people skills.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
"I don't think she was ever really happy in the IT field, but it paid the bills for her and her son (single mom)."
Of course you'll have a lot of elitist pricks tell you how wrong that was, and they should have had that position, instead of her.
From what I've seen, I'd say that the results will be a stronger, healthier IT workforce. The law of natural selection is at work here and we should not try to infuence it artificially with our political, social biases. Why is it that professions like nursing have a majority of women, but nobody seems to lament the need for more men in nursing? Individuals gravitate to fields that fit their genetics (oh, no not that word!) and conditioning. So, more men like/have natural abilities toward IT/Engineering? So what? Let's call it what it is. As long as women are not prevented from entering fields that they enjoy and excel at then there should not be a problem if they choose to not go into fields that they don't enjoy or excel at. It's choice, not numbers that count. Let's encourage ANY sex to be happy in whatever they choose to do and not worry that the numbers show what we've all known but are afraid to admit--that women and men are different. D'uh.
I'd mod you +5 informative pedant if only I had mod points left.
Grace Hopper was hired to program to prove that it was so easy, even a woman could do it.
So if all the women leave IT who's gonna make the coffee ?
While this is certainly a concern, what are the overall effects of such a mass departure?
So you think I'm fat?
I'm a school teacher. I teach, God help me, computer programming to secondary kids. I've just been reading about "high functioning autism" or Asperger's syndrome. I am quite rattled by the implications. Aspies can perseverate on tricky things, that like certain kind of things, they just don't understand certain kinds of social cues easily. Don't interview well, because they won't look the interviewer in the eye, etc....I won't enumerate symptoms; do a web search. People who have (or are diagnosed?) with Asperger's are like 95% male. Instant gender issue. I wonder what the percentage of Computer Science majors with Aperger's Syndrome or other autistic spectrum disorders actually is. I bet it's huge. And a culture of "Aspies" might very well drive away females like crazy just out of sheer cognitive dissonance. I wonder if this isn't a pretty big deal. Does anyone know if there is such thing as research in the psychology of programming?
This easily can be explained by 3% of women in I.T. undergoing sexual reassignment surgery.
My guess is that it's cultural. As I recall from my undergrad days, the women that were in my CS classes were by and large non-American. It's very likely that there is an ingrained stigma against American women entering science fields, although I can't imagine why, as I do not see any variation in the range of skill or expertise between men and women in my workplace -- there are good and bad for both, but neither is ahead of or behind the other.
Rule #1 -- Politics always trumps technology.
I never once heard him address her ability (or inability) to do the job. Now I don't consider myself a feminist, but I was left speechless by his complete lack of professional (and social) competence.
Anonymous Kev
Proudly posting as AC since 1997
(Finally got a dang account in 2004)
"Oh well, there's 6% fewer women that I won't be able not to date."
What Larry said.
Good for them. They should be on their backs
making babies and in the kitchen, not writing
bad code.
My wife graduated with her BSEE last may and she's still looking for a job. She was one of 2 females in her class and 98% of the others were from out of country and many of them went home.
Living in DFW you'd think it would be easier for her to get a job but despite her skillset and companies "wanting" to hire college graduates it still has not happened.
Hi! I am a married female geek with NO kids (DINK?) - and I have over 15 years of experience as a developer (Programmer Extraordinaire). I notice this psychological difference between men and women in IT: You guys *seem* (IMHO) to be more competitive and to find more of your worth in your job than females. Now, don't take me wrong: I'm competitive too. I would happily kick some ass and show how much better I am if needed. But there is some fundamental difference in the level. Apparently I'm (very) good at my job (so people tell me), but I would happily chuck it out and work part time at 7-11 and do my geekie jobs on the side if my husband could make up for the $$ with his job - which he can't because IT is so nicely overpaid. The only reason I stay in the high-stress job of commercial software development is purely for the $$ - it's the only opportunity to earn enough dosh so we can play hard on our vacations.
It's obvious that in general, men are better at IT than women. So what's the problem? Just let them do something else at which they are good.
There will be fewer web-cam whores. Damn, loved those EMO glasses.
I've been in this business for almost 20 years as a consultant and there has only been one time that I've run into someone with a hygene problem. Oh, and I don't think porn is limited to geeks. And geeks are no more mysogynistic than anyone else.
Your stereotypes are just as bad as the people who say women can't do math and science.
Any man who afflicts the human race with ideas must be prepared to see them misunderstood. -- H. L. Mencken
Well, I must admit that I didn't read your parent post, and I'm too lazy to scroll up. (that at least gives everyone a reason to feel superior to me. Glad we got that out of the way) Having said that, I don't think the point of the various statements is that any given woman is automatically less skilled than any given man. I think the idea is that out of a population of women, it is less likely that any one member will be skilled. That does not mean that if she _IS_ skilled she can't be just as skilled (or more so) than a man. Get it? Nobody is saying that any given woman is inherently less capable than any given man. In my experience there have been many women who were just as skilled as their male counterparts, there just weren't as many of them. There has always been a high ratio of men to women. Saying that women as a group are less likely to follow the path that would teach them a high level of technical skill is different from saying that any given woman who has followed that path is necessarily unskilled.
In short, if you're feeling like you are being told that as a female you are less skilled than a male, that is your own insecurity showing. Nobody that I have read so far is saying that.
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Maybe it's a desire to not have to spend their evenings learning new languages and technologies
This might have something to do with it, yes.. I studied engineering in school, but work now in IT.
In my engineering classes, everybody (men and women) were pretty "normal". There were a few hardcore geeks but I'd say 80% of the folks were smart and hardworking but didn't live and breath engineering. They didn't build circuits every weekend, or whatever.
In my CS classes (I took a few up to graduate level), it was ALL GEEKS. If you were just a smart hardworking person who didn't eat, breathe, sleep CS, you eventually got left behind. Each level of class had fewer and fewer women. The freshman classes looked like my engineering classes, the graduate looked like a freakshow (sorry, trying not to be TOO biased). The profs would give assignments that were incredible vague and leave a lot up to the student (which the geeks loved).
In my entire time I never met a woman who did computer stuff on her own as a hobby the way those geeks did. The women just viewed it as something that they could do for a living someday.
I do believe some of this is because women's brains are different (on average). But I also believe CS isn't really taught properly. It is biased towards people who "do it for fun". In engineering you essentially start from basic math and work your way up to the big theorems. As long as you keep up, you learn. In CS, it's more like dropping you in a swimming pool and saying: here, swim. My very first CS assignments was to write a big program. We were taught nothing about programming! It was assumed that everyone knew how to throw together a program. Lots of people (men and women) dropped out.
Interestingly, the profs were equally bad, male or female. One of the hardest was a woman. She was incredibly angry and bitter all the time. Always very sarcastic. Maybe that's what a career in computers does to a woman? :-O
CS is such a new field, that maybe the curriculum is biased this way. Maybe in 100 years it will be taught rigirously and systematically and then you only have to be *bright* to squeek through.
Of course I also think working in IT isn't much fun (I chose it mostly due to poor social skills), so I don't know *why* a woman so inclined would choose CS over engineering but hey.
Nobody else replying has mentioned this issue, and it is the main point of the article. (Do I get extra points for realizing this?)
Anyway, skill obsolescence will kill any career. My main question is "why do all these skills need to change so rapidly, that every five years I need to relearn what I already know?" Does a truck driver need to relearn to drive? What careers require this level of re-learning? Doctors? Lawyers? Well, maybe tax accountants, but that is another story.
And is this shift in skills really necessary? For instance, what computer project do you know of that could *not* have been done in COBOL, especially one of the new OO versions? Truth is, that almost any project can be done in an old technology, as well as new, if you want.
The skills change so rapidly because of the compitition between Microsoft and all the other dev platform makers. When the dev platform was controled by and designed for the benefit of the end user (for example, IBM COBOL for big corporations) you see that the dev platform hardly ever changed. Microsoft forces change because this change is good for Microsoft, but not necesarally good for the end users. I went from ASP to ASP.NET, without noticing any benefits to my clients.
This post is slightly off topic compared to the other posts, but my point is really, according to the lead article, the main reason that women leave IT. Perhaps this should be a new thread.
1996: women graduate with lucrative IT/CS degree at 23.
1999: Stock market starts to go south, IT market starts decline decreasing viable IT jobs and drying up any interest in the field by gold diggers (not saying women are gold diggers, specifically, here).
2002: Financial viability of IT field continues to decline, further decreasing interest in IT from women
2003: an increasing number of women in IT are reaching the "must copulate" stage of life (early to mid-30's), where they get biologically desperate for children, thus leaving the so-called "work force" to breed and raise a family.
Hardly surprising, considering people in IT seem to be more analytical than those outside the field, and as a result, are likely to see the benefits of having at least one couple member at home with the children, and the benefits of breast feeding on the child's health.
I say: kudos for these women for not being trend-setters and going against the flow! I have a massive amount of respect for your level of social responsibility.
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
Aside from one very specific case all the women students/contractors I've hired have been far superior in their ability to get the job done. None have balked at technical tasks that they might not have known. I'm in agreement that there should be absolutely no bais towards genter/ethnicity/relion/and so on. Pick the right person for the job, if its a woman then its a woman if its a guy then its a guy.
Wow. Men can be jerks.
I don't think we need equal numbers of men and women in IT necessarily. I mean, if women don't LIKE programming, or DBA'ing, or whatever, what do we gain as a society by bribing them into doing it? The way things have been going the last few years, maybe women have just been quicker to realize IT is no longer such a great career path.
But for someone like yourself, who has both the aptitude and the desire, pushing you away from the work you're best at and like the most is simple discrimination. I'm glad you persevered and made it to the kind of career you wanted. It certainly shows courage and perseverance on your part.
Keep doing what you love, and don't let anyone tell you otherwise! (At this point, I'm sure you won't.) Peace be with you,
-jimbo
XML Tools for Mac OS X
The only time I've ever been fired. They rounded the bunch of us up that were going to have to leave and told us. In the room were the only two women working in the IT department. One of their criteria, they told us, was that of not having a family to support. After that it was really difficult to even FIND a job. I was often looked over because I didn't seem to fit the geek stereotypes and there were plenty out there looking for a job. I don't think that people are taking the non-hiring aspect into mind. It took me forever to get BACK into IT and I had to do sales for awhile before I could even find an IT job.
...to do what I do. Date out of the marketing department. ;) A lot of them are geek-compatible, and relate to things like "Office Space." I recently dated a great gal who did IBM marketing and not only had heard of Linux but asked me to install it on her laptop. And she was cute. MY LONESOME BRETHREN, IT IS INDEED POSSIBLE! ;)
But I spent all my time in the basement doing geeky things BECAUSE I was teased and degraded by all the "Normal" kids.....
maby that in itself has something to do with it... how many girls are teased and degraded by their peers when compared to boys
(Serios question, not sarcasm, I don't whant any flames "Grlz get degraded 2" or the like)
1) pregnancy 2) barefoot women 3) lots of cooking
I had a contract at a place that basically said "Any female that applies will get the job, as long as she has basic troubleshooting skills."
Why? No women were applying. Stack of 100 applications, not one female applied. This was for a $19/hr NOC monkey gig, too.
This is bad because when one *does* apply, she'd get the job because of the fact that she was a *she* and not because she was the best fit for the position.
Not the first time I've run into this, either.
1) pregnancy 2) barefoot women 3) lots of cooking.
Let's be general and say women generally aren't interested in computers.
Think about this, slashdot geeks. What majors comprise mostly women? How about...Nursing or Women's studies?? I can remember back to undergrad, those two majors had 80%+ women, and 20% men if even that much.
Ask yourself this guys, why aren't you entering fields like nursing or women's studies? heck, why aren't guys in general going into those fields.
So why arent women entering IT? perhaps for the same reasons that men aren't entering fields dominated by women.
Put a woman in a room with 30 sexually-deprived males with no sense of chivalry and I bet she'll be chomping at the bit to work long hours and talk about how the 312th episode of Star Trek dramatically changed your life. I understand this is a stereotype, and this does not hold true for alot of males in IT, but at the same time those of you this does not hold true for, know someone who it does apply to. Just as the old addage goes, a few bad apples spoil the whole bunch. In this case, one or two bad apples will make a woman feel uncomfortable, unappreciated, and uneasy about their work environment. Could you blame them for leaving? Those who have noted here that, until we break the "geek" stereotype and start acting like professionals we're always be treated like "geeks". For example, look at a doctor. The profession is a highly-skilled science based profession, but there is no stigma. I've never heard a doctor spouting off about "How hot Anna Kournikova was and how they were going to go home and build a website in her honor". Anyone getting the picture yet?
Be sure to remember the Programmers Prayer
Totally agree with your last statement -- I'm a 23 year old female in IT, and have been working in it since about 2000. Most of the places I've worked at have been "boys clubs" and have been really hard to deal with because of that atmosphere. Granted, this has been most of my past experience in small companies mainly, but that representation isn't very good, and only adds to the negative perception.
It's definitely not easy to be the only woman in the IT department, though. Not only does it feel like you're isolated, it's hard to relate to other coworkers (most I've met are highly reclusive), and some will even go so far as doubting your skills (something I've had to battle on more than one occasion, which certainly doesn't help my own perception of my skills, either). =o/
I have a strong feeling that had my parents not encouraged me to go into CS that I would have studied something else, like music or language. Most of my friends in high school and college don't understand why I've chosen this path because they see it as a profession that is incredibly reclusive and competitive. So yes, there are strong social implications involved.
The reduction in numbers, however, isn't a common thing everywhere. I have a friend who works at JDA as a Software Architect, and she tells me that most of her coworkers (also Software Architects and Engineers) are female.
I've noticed this trend as well. The women programmers I've known have tended to be much more professional, serious, and frankly, reliable. I've generally perceived this to be a side effect of the need to prove themselves... given that they're in a traditionally male-dominated field, they've got to be on their game, no screwing around.
Whether this is true or not, I've no idea. I've never spoken to any of them about it. But if that's what it is, it certainly seems to pay off for my friends. They've done quite well and are well respected.
I've even started to steal a few pages from their books... when I was younger, having a pony tail, wearing sneakers and a comic book t-shirt, and not shaving were my de facto geek armor. Young kid dresses that way, everybody assumes he knows what he's doing. You don't have to prove it, you just have to not screw up. Worked great when I was consulting.
Now that I'm a little older, those things don't set off the "kid is a computer god" prejudice any more. They set off the "is dude still living in his mom's basement?" prejudice instead. So I got a hair cut, shave occasionally, and dress a little better. Sure, it's still jeans and a t-shirt, but jeans don't have holes in them any more, and the shirts don't have logos. I'm not that old yet :)
>> I'm not going to refuse if somebody throws money at me for having a vagina
there's a word for that..
However, to avoid trolling: I'm male, technically capable, working in a technical job because of a rational decision to do something I enjoy. I have a degree in Accounting and Financial Analysis; I could be earning 60% more as an accountant right now..
The current IT department I'm in has something around a 50% male/female split. However: Less than five of the women are in what I'd call a technical role. The rest are testers, or managers, or doing administrative roles.
This may be due to prejudice in our hiring procedures; I personally don't believe so, but either way it's not relevant to my point: Women ARE in the minority in technical roles in IT.
So you may be afronted by being treated as a minority; from where I'm sat, you ARE a minority.
Why that is, how we reached this situation, what we need to do to move away from it is a separate discussion entirely.
~Cederic
I believe one of the major factors in addition to the above is the ability to dedicate yourself to A job. Studies have shown that men have problems with stress, work late, and die early. A lot of women in the IT field have too many obligations to dedicate themselves to the job. Case in point. When a server needs emergency maintenance / projects after hours, who do you think is going to apply the necessary fixes? The man, or the woman? Chances are the woman has to do motherly things like pick up the kids, etc.. This makes it where a man can usually dedicate himself to the job moreso than a woman. I cannot tell you how many times in all the IT jobs I've had, that a woman in the field has had to leave early for a sick child, or for doctors appointments for all of their children. As well as being able to work next to nothing in overtime because of household responsibilities. In my opinion, these things are more turn management off to women besides posisions of project management, instead of technical knowledge.
I'm just as competitive (if not more so) as the average man. Its not the *competition* I mind, its the empty use of competition for self-promotion I mind. Its the useless posturing for position, rather than in focusing the competitive spirit on making better, more useful products I mind. It seems like a tremendous waste of energy, to spend time arguing over who is better rather than in doing productive work.
People say that university was the best time of there life.
I wouldn't recommend computer science to my worst enemy.
Not only do you not meet any girls in any of your classes you carry around the stigma of comp sci.
On top of that I graduated at a time when there were no computer science jobs.
I was forced to take a job as a bartender.
Let me just say bartending was fun.
The stigma for girls is even worse in comp sci.
It's got to be hard not having any peers of the same gender.
They are surrounded by a buch of sex starved guys.
But look at the other side of the coin for example nursing.
Not a lot of guys there.
You never really hear studies about guys not going into nursing.
Even though there is a huge shortage of nurses.
The stigma of being a male nurse is a lot worse than comp sci.
If you look at country like Korea, The stigma of comp sci doesn't really exist.
I would imagine there is a high enrollment rate for women in comp sci there.
Technology is very much a part of their society.
I call b.s. on this one. Being almost 36, having worked in Silicon Valley and the Pacific Northwest, as well as twice divorced, both marriages held me shouldering the brunt of domestic and professional responsibilities in the family.
Sorry but this isn't 1957 and Father knows Best. What is a more realistic trend for women
Nothing like being the major bread winner, housekeeper and chef of my past two marriages to realize that very few women want to care about anything other than being taken care of--monetarily and physically. What's worse is we aren't talking about women who actually went through motherhood. I dated one woman with a small child who ended up having me be Mr. Mom for over a year.
Where is the balance of duties? Both can be professionals, but neither is beholden to past generational stereotypes as excuses to do or not pitch in and contribute to the domestic as well as economic issues that face all relationships.
I suppose the fact that obesity is so common--a byproduct of fast food--many must think being able to cook, clean and maintain yards are unnecessary qualities in a person. Think again. Men and women outside of their genitalia have no excuses for being incapable of such skills.
Until I personally find a woman capable of doing and actually not minding to do domestic chores alongside working in the industry of her choosing I'll stick to being single. The financial and emotional baggage isn't worth it. If a woman--or for women if a man--doesn't value physical fitness through "blue collar" labor she will never value the perks of a "white collar" lifestyle.
How welcome do you think guys are in ballet? Its not just women that get alienated, in lord of the flies environments like schools, the insecure guys do anything they can to put down others so they appear better. It doesn't matter if you're a he or a she.
I get the same testing bullshit as you describe all the time, its called being new. When you are an outsider, insecure people try to test you to see where they stand. Stop assuming that everything you experience is only because you are a woman.
And yes, the post you replied to was definately a troll.
I can't troll Slashdot to get dates with hot I.T. women any more? I mean this place is better than the vegetable section at the supermarket!
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
Simple, women are smarter than men, and they already see that IT is a dead end field, like making buggies after the Model T came out.
Although there will still be IT jobs (unlike the buggy makers) from here on out IT will be drudge work, and not a desireable field to be in anymore. It is just that women noticed this first.
==>Lazn
The percentage of women in the industry is declining.
The percentage of hispanics in the industry is declining.
The percentage of whites in the industry is declining.
Why?
The ever growing use of imported IT workers who are nearly exclusively male.
The author if this article is using tunnel vision.
"While this is certainly a concern, what are the overall effects of such a mass departure?"
The effects are:
1. A whole bunch of geeks who never had a chance at getting laid anyway get an excuse.
2. Dead Or Alive Xtreme Beach Volleyball 2 is expected to go platinum in just 12 hours.
3. Realdoll sales skyrocket.
4. Slashdot becomes an even bigger sausage party than it already was.
I ended up studying English lit. and autodidacted my way into IT.
Your degree is showing ;). And to think that I caught flack in my last place for 'spurious'.
"We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
I think most of the "conclusions" drawn from this article aren't worth anything without further information pertaining to the actual number of women in IT, as opposed to just percentages. And anecdotes don't count: this is my second time through this thread, and geek #1 saying he's never met a competant woman programmer while geek #2 says three of the best programmers he knows are women while geek #3 says maybe women just aren't that interested isn't as useful as real data, at which point maybe those anecdotes make more sense.
The best responses to the article so far are the ones like the parent poster, because they say that, from this article, we don't have enough information to draw conclusions. Another poster pointed out that they measured data from 1996, as the dotcom boom started, until 2002, when the detritus was still being cleared. So what happened in the middle? That doesn't get answered, and only one person I noticed had the presence of mind to ask.
Woman
50 years old.
I love gadgets and solving puzzles which is what programming is for me.
I got into the field 24 years ago because I was looking for a field that valued skill over appearances. Not because I am a woman but because I am a Sikh and I wear a turban.
It was really hard to get my first job, but easy to get the next.
I now work in an office with 3 other programmers, all women, all really smart. It seems that all of the departments that I know in the Federal building and over at the State are more women than men. Maybe the Federal and State government pay less and men can get the higher paying private sector jobs. Although several of the women quit private sector jobs to get away from the stress of contract work or the companies kept crashing.
At the local university, the student that everyone thinks is the best hacker is female.
Just surprised to hear that there are less women going into the field, but then I live in Alaska where the men are men and the women win the Iditarod. Silly joke but someone already used the other one that aplies to Alaska men: The odds are good but the goods are odd.
Why are women staying away from computer science, physics and math? It's probably because they're different than men
I was going to link ``men'' to the goatse guy, but good taste intervened: the ``men'' link is workplace safe. The ``women'' link isn't quite workplace safe if you scroll down.
Those pictures I linked to show some obvious, structural differences. Is it reasonable to think that those are the only differences (hint: No!)?
See what I've been reading.
because the industry of full of first-class assholes too full of themselves with their own technical skill that they have no idea of how to communicate and share their knowledge with people different from them (and in many cases people the same as them as well).
It's hard to say as a newbie that IT is a fun place to work when you're constantly being looked down upon for your green-ness. Also, women (and many men as well), tend to be turned off by the office politics hazing that goes on in many IT departments.
By the way, I'm a man, and have been in IT for over 12 years.....who doesn't want his daughters anywhere near this industry if it's going to continue like this...
I bet I know a lot more about Perl, web development, Linux than you! Infact I bet most women reading this know more about IT than you.
.NET? You must really bright if you know some unix commands.
System Administrator huh? And you think you can talk down to women? Look at how many female DEVELOPERS have posted comments.
What the hell do System Administrators know about ASP?
Obviously you are clueless if you think that men are better at IT than women.
Have you ever spoken to a woman? I can tell you have never dated one.
Female developer.
One theory, to put it plain and simple, how many girls out there actually want to be hanging around 'geeks' or be perceived themselves as a 'geek'....nuff said
What difference does it make? None at all. People choosing careers that interest them is not news.
right on.
Wow! Are you real? I just _know_ that you're some pimply-faced teenager, leading us into the false hope that there are geeky women out there, somewhere... ;)
You don't do database programming, you do access programming. If you had ever worked with a database before, you would not have made that mistake.
what are the overall effects of such a mass departure?
Workplace getting boring??
Captain Ego.
"Everyone thinks you're "more than friends"."
dear lord, get a grip on yourself.
"If my manager isn't sensitive about the time I *need* to be away from work cos school is closing early, then I'm going to be less happy on the job."
In my experience, if a woman says "I nede to bo pick up my child from school." no one thinks twice about it, but if your a guy suddenly you can't "seperate you home from work" and aren't a "team player".
"Managers like to promote people who are like them. It's been hard for me in some organizations to envision a good career path."
Promotion in general in the IT world is sucky. It is very hard to envision a career path that lead to management beyond IT.
"Lastly, it sucks sometimes to be in meetings and be the only woman there. Yes, that can be a point of pride, but it's not always a comfortable feeling."
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Men are increasingly taking maternity leave too. And personally I think they should.
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
What do you get from an IT job? Money, job satisfaction, stability, something that looks good on a resume?
IT is generally a low pay profession subject to the whims of bean counters and outsourcing, and only marginally rewarding if you aren't just into hardware.
Compare that to various aspects of health care where salaries are soaring, where they can't get enough workers (and won't be able to get enough for decades) and where the jobs might actually leave you feeling like you helped somebody.
One of my friends traded her decent IT job for medical school and became a pharmacist where she earns twice what I make in my IT job and she gets to help people and feel good about what she does.
That means more to her than hanging out with computers all day and hell, the pay is better. Why not leave IT?
Sig for hire.
"..what are the overall effects of such a mass departure?"
Um, happier women?
It was more like 41 women in IT, total.
if it's driving people out, it's can't be sustainable or healthy. Women leaving may be only the first of coming problems...
What about parents who see this unhealthy way of working and discourage their children to avoid it all together?
Just because it has been working, doesn't mean it's the best way or will continue to work.
Well, I'm one of the ones who left the industry. Though I ADORE programming, going thru 3 dotcoms in 6 months (one due harassment, one due to downsizing, one due to 9/11) was too much for me. The problem for me was stability. I had a family to take care of and moving from one job to the next, without benefits in between was too much. So I've gone back to my old career (buying/importing/planning) because of the stability.
My second foray into the programming world, I wound up at a small medical software company, where I was not only the only female programmer, I was also the youngest. Two guys there had been programming in VB since it was practically invented! But I left there because my boss kept making passes at me, which I diverted, and really didn't put much stock into until co-workers started saying things. The enviroment just got too catty (yes, the WOMEN there were a pain), so I left. No reason to stay where I was uncomfortable.
It's not too hard for women. And frankly, I'd really prefer to work in a male dominated arena, it's the OTHER women there that make it hard. It's difficult for non-IT women to understand that just cuz I work with a bunch of men, doesn't mean they're all sleeping with me! They may want to...but I can tell most men to take a hike without being offended or completely grossed out at the concept.
So when is the Hawkeye movie coming out?
...I now know that my odds of getting a geekgirlfriend(.com) are pretty low.
Freedom is strength, Ignorance is peace, War is slavery.
Is it too hard for black people too? You ignorant man! Computers are easier than before. For example, if you run Linux in an enterprise environment, you most likely run Red Hat. If you have a problem, you can call Red Hat and have it resolved in minutes. Things are easier, everything is web based, drag and drop. Only Cisco seems to be trapped in the 70's with its complicated IOS. However, you see that change too. Even the most complicated VoIP phone can be configured using a TFTP server of the vendor providing the service, or using some simple XML templates.
I see it now, institutionalized bathing... Everyone must change their hygiene and interests merely to accomodate someone who might last a semester or two in the field before she runs off to be an education major... You can take a horse to water, but you can't make HER drink. It she doesn't want to do the time, then she can stay the hell out. Jesus. Grow some balls people.
The more qualified and compete employees you can attract as a business, the better.
Why put a stranglehold on your recruitment, and guarantee high turnover at a certain age, by creating a workplace where the only people who can function properly are young, single, childless and usually male?
It's unsustainable.
Boo-hoo... Always the victim. So, I see, it is your parents fault that you made the choice you did. How about you take responsibility for your decisions and realize YOU SCREWED UP and it is not hte fault of society or your parents. You made the decision. If you want to leave, then do it.
If you switched the genders of your situation and say it was an office setting, would you feel sorry for the guy in the same way that you are trying to portray yourself? No. So fuck off.
I'm a young woman in the IT world. (22 yrs old, been working in the field for 2.5 years..) I have found that it's not that hard to work in this field, but maybe I'm just made for this sort of thing. Yes, you get the occassional male that gives you an attitude because he feels that you're not qualified enough to be working on whatever problem he is having, but I have actually found that I get more of an attitude from other women that I work with. (Those women do not work in IT with me, but in other areas of the company...) As long as you have a good sense of humor and can let the little stuff roll off your back, there's no reason that a woman shouldn't be able to succeed in the IT industry. On a side note, my company just got bought by Microsoft! Now I will be a woman not only working in the IT field, but working for a giant like Microsoft!
I'll give you my take:
Software development has gone into the realm of the arcane and tedious. Nowadays, you don't get a job if you know one programming language. You need three or four (including at least one scripting), win, unix, linux, solaris, database, filesystem, plus web design, html, css, some graphic editing, ui design, framework integration, xml+webservices, email, http, internationalization, documentation, security, teamwork, and god knows what else experience.
I suggest that the average college degree is might give you relatively solid background in 1 language, plus a smattering of the rest, but not nearly enough to hit the ground running at a company with a decent salary.
What is really needed is the hacker mentality, where the extra hours are not spent at the mall or talking on the phone, but spent poring over dry books and hours on end getting scripts to run on an old clunker of a computer running linux. I can see very few women doing this. Mind you there are, but not many.
I think the reduction in women in IT is just an adjustment back to the realization that IT is hard, not glamorous, and tedious as hell.
"Piter, too, is dead."
Dear IT field,
I'm sorry to have to write this letter.
I won't say we didn't have some good times together. And we had great money together. But the time has come to move on. To tell you the truth, I was never into the macho eighty hours a week thing. I wanted to have a life, maybe start a family, but now I know you weren't interested in supporting me in that. You were never interested in my ideas; I didn't get the great assignments. Over time, I began to realize that you were using me -- using me for the code.
And when I found out you'd been trolling the Internet to hook up with hot Asian programmers, well, all I can say is I knew where I stood with you.
So, I'm leaving. By the time you read this, I'll have cleared out my desk. I've found a new field, one who values me for my ideas and is sensitive to my aspirations. One that isn't trolling the back alleys of Bangalore for quickies.
You may feel a bad about this at first, but don't bother sending flowers or anything like that. I don't flatter myself, in a few months you'll be back to the way you were before we met, and we'll both be better off.
Sincerely,
Female IT worker.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
That's the male percentage of American workplace deaths.
When the media call comes for the female body count to be raised by the percentage necessary to offset the sexism which forces most men into body-crushing blue-collar wage-slavery and white-collar rubber rooms of unpaid overtime, leaving women to safe and salaried managerial henhouses of gossip and cake parties, let us boys know.
You can reach us at the nearest mineshaft, scaffold, or boiler room.
This article bothered me more because of the hasty generalizations and straw man arguements presented rather than any evidence of a true "mass exodus" of women leaving IT. Simply stating that in 1996, 41% of IT workers were women and in 2002, there are now only 35% doesn't begin to provide sufficient context. What about the men in IT during that period? Was there a sharp influx of men filling IT roles as a result, or can you see a similar pattern of men leaving IT? Did the study only take into account US workers? Are those positions being filled by foreign men and women? What about more recent trends? Furthermore, what is the benchmark that the author is using to define the field of IT? Are we narrowly focusing on only those who program or code script for a living? What about technical positions that do not fall within a software development group? Let's pretend for a moment that the author had provided concrete evidence that a larger percentage of women are leaving IT than men... the next thing to consider is whether they are leaving IT to pursue other fields or are simply leaving the workforce altoghter.
It was the first day of Advanced Algorithms. I made it to the lecture hall, and had settled into a seat, waiting for the professor. There was something indefinably wrong, but I couldn't put my finger on it.
I waited a few minutes, as no professor showed up, with a growing certainty that something was just a little off.
Then it hit me. There were too many pretty girls in the classroom. I got used to it real fast, mind you.
So imagine my dismay and bitter disappointment when someone came into the hall and announced that the room had been double-booked with...
ahem...
Poli Sci 101.
It is to weep.
Now when I call tech/customer support for a company I won't be able to ask as often now, "So, are you married?"
Chicken fried butter sticks? Do
It's "What has changed in the last few years".
Skimming these posts at 4, I mostly saw discussion of cultural barriers to women in IT. They're real enough, but they only change slowly, that kind of change takes decades, not years.
It's 20 years this year since my graduation from CS. And back then, the ratio at my university was maybe 1:4 or at worst 1:5. The one poster was claiming 40/800 or a 1:20 ratio. Quite a drop.
And anybody claiming that the last 20 years have seen a cultural shift AGAINST women being respected in the workplace -- well, show me some evidence. I think any change, while slow, has been for the better.
The "cultural barriers" argument, "I don't get no respect", therefore explains only my old 1:4 or 1:5. It's not explaining a further recent decrease.
So the question posed by the rapid and recent drop in women in IT, is "what has changed so recently?"
And I can' think of any answer myself except "Less opportunity and less money".
Funny. A good friend of mine (a very masculine, fellow gym rat) is desperately trying to get into nursing school. Other than the fact that nurses don't get enough respect (my mother is a nurse so I have some idea what I'm talking about here), I think nursing is a great career for anyone.
On another front, I'm trying to get my female cousin to declare one of her majors in mathematics (she has already decided that the other will be in French). I've tried to explain to her how many doors a mathematics degree will open in the business, engineering, and scientific fields but I can't get her to bite. Note: she is not anything like the bimbos you describe in your post. Quite the contrary, she's is extremely bright and did very well in mathematics (through Calculus) in her French immersion high school.
Based on your own experiences, can you suggest any ways that I might get her more interested in pursuing a mathematics degree (or at least a degree some other hard science)?
But to the uneducated (IT-wise anyway) annoying and mind-numbingly stupid women that I have come across who got hired only due to quota fulfilling manglement assclowns... Good Riddance.
www.madeofwinandawesome.com
Interestingly women make up something like 85% of technical support call center workers, which are still considered I.T. positions. I live in Edmonton, we host the call centers for Dell's North America operations and for Compaq's desktop support (Via a company called Convergys, they also do north american support for AT&T/Cingular Wireless) all in all there are something like 2000 tech support phone operators in this city of only 900,000 people and their virtually all women, tho less so at Dell.
I'm a woman and a programmer that:
1. has the messiest desk in the office.
2. hates commenting code
3. will work 14 hours days for weeks straight with no break
4. has a husband that doubles as a housewife
5. spends my free time with various IT projects and well as lots of gamming to boot.
Put that in you're stereotypical pipe and smoke it!
You know, you're absolutely right. (Not that I doubted you as a woman mind you) Women definitely percieve IT related topics in school as being intimidating and "too challenging." They play themselves down like "I'm not smart enough for that, I just don't understand it, That's too hard." When the fact is, I know that if more of them put their minds to it they could understand it just as well as us guys. I'm a senior (done in June thank God) at a Christian university in Seattle where there are more than 3 women per man in the school population. Such a ratio would lead you to think that the percentage of women in IT related majors would be higher than the national average. But sadly it is not. Out of ALL the 200+ students in the CS major from all four classes combined, I know of only 2 women. This is a real disappointment because I think that women have a great many abilities to bring to the workforce that men simply don't have. Hopefully this will turn around.
An interesting thought I haven't seen in any of the comments on this yet... I've been in IT (web programming, actually) for 6 years. I'm female. I admit to being a very unstereotypical geek. I spend most evenings either in front of my computer or in a ballet studio, two very seperate worlds. People that meet me as a dancer are suprised when they learn I'm a programmer. People in IT are suprised to find out I do things of the non-geek persuasion like ballet. I'm currently engaged and plan on having children in the next few years... But I think my job in IT actually caters BETTER to my desire to have a family than most other fields. I can (and plan on) transition to telecommuting after maternity leave. The IT industry is one of the best areas for telecomuting I've seen. As long as I have a computer and internet access, I can do my job from pretty much anywhere. I've been offered the opportunity for higher paying jobs in other fields, but I'm purposfully staying in this field because its the best fit to my future goals.
Those who dance are thought mad by those who hear not the music.
In my engineering classes, everybody (men and women) were pretty "normal". There were a few hardcore geeks but I'd say 80% of the folks were smart and hardworking but didn't live and breath engineering. They didn't build circuits every weekend, or whatever.
I saw this too, in my EE classes. It really disappointed me, because I got into EE specifically because I wanted to spend my spare time building circuits. There were a few people like me, but we were very rare. Most people were just there because of the career prospects.
When I got into the workforce, it got even worse. There was one place (a research institute) where I briefly worked where people really were into building their own stuff off-hours, but I left there when my girlfriend at the time finished her degree. Now, in my EE position at a top tech company that I'm sure everyone here would recognize, there's absolutely no one here who does electronics (or programming) as a hobby. They're all just boring regular people with families and kids, and their idea of a hobby is watching HDTV.
After reading this, I'm wondering if I should have gone into CS instead...
It has to do with people not necessarily choosing a major because they were born a geek.
Evolution takes time... Patience, okay?
"It's a very tangled subsystem." --Windows kernel guru
Guys join Business School cause that's where all the hot girls are at... Girls join Science schools cause that's wherea all the... umm.. never mind..
They're not good at math and science just like men are no good at cooking and babies and stuff like that.
Men are no good at cooking??! And the vast majority of French four-Michelin-star chefs are...MEN, you dipshit!!!
"Politicians and diapers must be changed often, and for the same reason."
Shut up and get back on your knees!
You mean paternity leave, right?
-1 Uncomfortable Truth
"what are the overall effects of such a mass departure?"
Obviously it means
But I don't know how to represent a negative number in the real world (other than temperature).
I guess I could represent it by saying
Richard Steven Hack - This sig is TOO GODDAMN SHORT TO DO ANYTHING USEFUL WITH! MORONS!
It's probably wrong of me to attack the .1% population of slashdot, but I don't understand how you can generalize women all over because you doubt your abilities.
I know plenty of women who are confident in their abilities, and plenty who aren't. I also know men in the same proportions.
I would say it's more an issue that most girls don't like it, the same way most boys don't like color coordinating bedrooms.
There are fundamental gender differences that extend beyond obvious, like communication patterns and relationship handling. Maybe there's something about tools that boys enjoy while girls enjoy aesthetic things more. Not to say there aren't exceptions, of course.
overall effects?!? it means i get laid less often. damnit.
HAHA! Two heads! Only thinking with one! HAHA! Oh man, that's classic!! Where'd you come up with that one?? It's brilliant!!
There aren't that many female scientists, architects and composers either. These are three professions "in the real world" that are closest to what a real programmer does. After all, coding is not what the Nature created them for.
What does it mean??!? :-( :-)
Mainframe/UNIX Bit Twiddler and long time Windows/Linux Hobbyist.
The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.
I read /. somewhat regularly and I will always work in IT but I didn't major in CS in college. I took an intro to programming class, enjoyed it and got an A but as 1 of 2 women in the class, I and the other woman found ourselves rather isolated and kind of treated like pariahs by the 25 other guys in the class and the professor so neither of us pursued it as a major.
That said, I ended up working in computers anyway simply because I like it and apparently have an aptitude for it. I think that may be more important, more motivating to work in IT then having a degree (this coming from a poli sci major and music minor).
- tokengeekgrrl
That's the extra load that aspiring she-geeks have to deal with.
I would disagree. I would think she-geeks would get more positive attention from the sausage-fest of the male geek world. Granted, she'd have to somehow flex her geek physique occasionally, just to make sure she's legit.
Show me a straight male geek who wouldn't find a true she-geek interesting.
"It's a very tangled subsystem." --Windows kernel guru
They are surrounded by a buch of sex starved guys.
Yeah, what woman could possibly want that?
As someone who recently applied to take the CISCO networking course at my school, i've done a little bit of asking around, just to see what the class is like-apparently i'm the first girl in a long while to take it, and honestly, i wouldnt be taking it if it wasnt for the fact that i need a pratical art to graduate.
It's not because I don't like CS, or IT type work, but it's because I can't possibly see it as a primary career for me, just personally. I enjoy computers, but like a lot of girls I know, while we enjoy doing things with computers, there are other jobs out there tht not only have less of a stigma for females, but also allow us to use our computer skills while not having to use those and only those.
The thing that is "too hard" about IT for women is the hours and the travel, not the technical aspect of it. More men than women are willing to put up with long hours and being on the road all the time. I have a better job now, but to pay my dues I had jobs that were almost all travel. my wife might have seen me 5 days a month sometimes. BTW, my mother is a math major and worked as a Fortran programmer before I was born.
We all stereotype because it is an adaptive behavior. It is safe to be wary of the strange/unusual -- dangerous to walk up to every live animal, reach out, pat it on the head and ask "are you a nice beast?". And then of course, as individuals, tribes, whatever, we've been in competition for resources (and thus a threat to each other) for as long as we've existed.
The type of person born with a personality that does not allow any prejudgment probably gets killed off before reproductive age.
What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
Men aren't accepted in position working with young children, because everyone suspects they're a child molester or a pervert.
And while I'd agree that teachers, not just kindergarten ones, should be paid more, why should philosophy students be paid anything? There's no such career as a "philosopher", unless you use it to do something else such as being a professor or a writer. There's not a lot of demand for either of those.
It's obvious (to me, anyway) why most women shy away from extremely logical/mathematical/technical fields.
It's not because women are incapable. In fact, many women who switch away from these areas of study partway through are getting excellent grades.
It's because most women don't naturally like isolated, focused activities. Many women are mentally capable (moreso than most men) of excelling at the field, but most women don't enjoy that kind of work. Most men see it as an appealing, complex world of obsessive-compulsive challenges, whereas most women see it as boring, lonely, and lacking in human value/interaction.
Or, to summarize -- most men derive enjoyment from focusing on things and logical problems, whereas most women derive enjoyment from focusing on people and relationships.
It's the same reason most auto mechanics are men, and it's the same reason you find far more women majoring in psychology and sociology than in engineering or computer science.
Moderator hint: a comment is neither "Flamebait" nor "Troll" if it is true.
varying from 10% to 40% women of the workforce of the company (and the 40% was in a web/graphic design company)
This statement should be a microcosm of what's happening. Women don't tend to be interested in the hard-core system-software aspect of IT but instead tend to be interested in the lighter, more artistic aspect. In recent years, the opportunities for web developers have gone from write-your-own-ticket to "would you like fries with that" and the representation of women in IT has followed the same trend.
And, of course, a significant portion of the women who were in IT at the peak five years ago would have hit the glass ceiling by now. ("Glass ceiling" is the politically correct social-protest term for having children).
wikipedia entry
everything 2 entry Kilroy was here !
music lover since 1969
I was going to reply to the story item that with fewer women in the field we will see a return to sanity and logic, but I realize after reading your refreshing post that it is not always true. I don't normally feel that way about women, but my current breakup is driving me to think that way. Forgive me.
It was not intended to be sexist, but to highlight the occasional run-in with women like my soon-to-be ex. She refuses to even try to learn something new, even though I know she is capable and smart and I encourage her that she is able. Example: I refurbed an old laptop for her to do some creative writing on. It was an older laptop, I put on Win98, since it was going to be behind a firewall so security wasn't a big problem. I tried to get her to use Abiword since it looks like Word, but requires less ram and CPU to run, but she flat refused to even try it for a while. I also had to create batch files to backup the laptop to her desktop because she refused to learn to connect to a share on another PC. After all that, she barely used it!!
So, that said, what are you doing next Saturday night? Just kidding, but do you have any female friends like yourself in the midwest?
--Somewhere there is a village missing an idiot.
I'm another woman in IT. Well, I was in IT, now I'm in academia working towards a professor position in CS. Why the switch? Because I was treated for my skills and not my gender and this led to me getting every "spare hat" in the company dumped on my lap.
Before I went back to grad school for my PhD, I was working three distinct jobs at once: software development for a legacy software program, tech support for the main client on the other coast and network/systems admin (all the wiring, servers, routers, dealing with the ISP, trying to get all the employees to update their own virus software (yeah right), etc etc etc). I was also the person all the other employees went to when they needed something researched online, giving me the nickname of the "company search engine". And after the admin staff left, I was the only person left in the main building where the phones rang, so I got to play after hours phone rangling (seemed the other employees' family/friends never could figure out how to punch their extensions in the after-hours automated answering system and always hit "0" to go to the main building).
In the end, the work load and, in particular, the hours required to get all the work done were something I was unhappy with. Sorry, but I value my personal time. I'm not an 80 hr work week sort of gal. I'll do it on occasion when a deadline requires, but not as a standard working hours. I have to wonder how many other women leaving industry have the same dislike with such long hours. To make matters worse, I never got any of the promised raises for adding additional jobs to my plate, although this wasn't gender discrimination. They did this to most of the fresh out of undergrad employees. The guy they recruited from the development interns to take over my position when I left was making about half the salary I did.
Geek tends to mean white or asian male. I don't think anyone here is going to argue with that. It would be interting to see how strong this subconcious assocation is, and this is a way to do it...a test.html
/. are even more likely then adverage to have strong assocations between maleness and scientific abilty and business ability.
https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/demo/select
I suggest the gender-science and gender-career tests. I bet that people on
This is likely in part a self prepuating cycle, seeing few women leads you to think women don't belong in IT, which leads you to be suspicious of any women who are in IT, the women get tired of hostile reactions and drop out, this leads to fewer women in IT.....
The odds are good, but the goods are odd.
You jest, of course, but my impression is that only about 30% of men in computer science represent the turbo-geek nerdy stereotype. About 50% are the regular guys that you would find in any degree program and 20% are even "cool dudes". A girl with the pick of the litter is not much hindered for choice.
It's also worth noting that this gives rise to the (also obvious) way to go about solving the problem of women shying away from technical fields.
Education in these fields needs to be based from the start around teamwork. Not only would that make the fields more appealing to women, but it's a more realistic representation of and preparation for the working world.
I went to Rice University during 1995-1999, just around the time they were phasing in a genuine BSCS degree. I actually had to get my degree in BSECE (Electrical & Computer Engineering) to get out in four years flat (all my family could afford), but I got about a 50/50 mix of CS and EE classes. And I can say that in both the CS and EE curriculum at Rice, there was almost zero emphasis on teamwork or the team aspects of engineering or software development. At most, I had 1 or two senior-level courses in each field in which I had to work with 1 or 2 other classmates cooperatively on a project, and we were given no guidance involving the teamwork aspects.
I actually graduated from Rice and came to work for Microsoft having never really used CVS or any other collaborative source repository system, and my first couple years at Microsoft went pretty rough because the way I was used to working (as an individual coder with complete control over all choices involved in a development project) was totally different and in direct conflict with a team development setting. It took me quite a while to learn how to fit into the team and use all the teamwork practices and tools properly and effectively.
Moderator hint: a comment is neither "Flamebait" nor "Troll" if it is true.
You must not have taught or taken any freshman weed-out classes at large state universities with hundreds of students in an auditorium. Professors in these classes don't care if the students learn or not; the whole idea is to weed out people.
Whether this is a good thing or not is up for debate, but that's the way it is.
Like we didn't already have enough trouble finding dates.
Everyone's experience is different, I guess. The CS department where I went to school was not filled with a bunch of sex-starved, D&D playing dorks. Sure, there were a few of those in the mix. But, for the most part, these were guys that couldn't stand SciFi books, computer games, or RPG sessions (well, unless you count those that program using RPG). Many (including myself) were dating or married while in the CS program. I also did happen to meet several attractive, fun girls in my CS classes.
http://www.bynarystudio.com
I'm a CS major, and last year, my freshman year of college (CSU Sacramento), I worked as a network assistant about the 4 oncampus dormitories. My job was to fix computers of residents that were disabled from the dormitory LAN, generally caused by loads of adware, virsuses, faulty devices/drivers, or unplugged cables (the saddest case, although my favorite).
We have an excellent Computer Science department, and it's presence (or it's majors) aren't hidden on campus.
On job, at average I spend at least 20 minutes troubleshooting problems with their network connectivity, and to pass time between virus scans and whatnot I talk with the people. The majority didn't know what Computer Science was. They new of it, but their conception was "the study of computers." In a broad sense that is what it is. When I was asked my major from guys in need of computer help who were non-CS major, they'd at least reply more accurately with "programming and computer networking".
Non-CS guys are likely to have companions who are in CS or enginnering, or another technical major like CIS or MIS. Math majors also have to take a few Computer Science courses.
The vast majority of females at this college are majoring in liberal studies; e.g. psychology, English, history, etc. My CS classes so far have had at most 2 or 3 females enrolled (out of 80 or so). Generally by the end of the semester 1 of them drop.
Women are less likely to have female friends in the computing majors, and if they do the friend is probably often shy to reply or describe what their major is.
This pressure of females in a technical major from their majority of friends outside that major also gets nerveracking. At my college it's a common thing on Thursdays until Sunday to hear from females the question "are you going out?" to their friends. Going out ofcourse relates mostly to dressing up and getting drunk at a party or bar somewhere. It's viewed by many as the social norm to college life.
But females in a technical major generally have much more academic stress upon them than others. Not going out on a Thursday, Friday or Weekend once in awhile is the best option to allocate time for their rigours coursework. Yet with pressure from female friends to go out, it can become emotionally struggling.
For guys this isn't so. Since there are more males in Computer Science, having friends in the major is very likely. While the norm of partying seems rapid amongst just about every other major, I don't believe it's the same in Computer Science. My friends and I like to spend time programming web applications, playing sports and what not when having free time. I'm not a partying, and I view it as a waste of time. For a female in CS with female friends most likely outside of CS, how do you go about living the lifestyle you may want to with so much undeniable pressure?
The roles of sexes has pissed me off for a long time in this world. Females are viewed by males and other females to follow a very specific pattern. While freedom for women rights have developed greatly in the past century, they still lack status role, employment and psychological freedom.
As a guy, I can follow any productive ethical lifestyle without a negative response from peers that damages my self esteem. I can not party at all, work out, look like I was a California surfer, play guitar, be a computer science major, attend college, get an IT job and program 6 hours a day, and get a fair amount of social activity through online messaging and talking with coworkers. Truth is, this is very smilar to my life.
For a female to follow this lifestyle she'd feel extremely unsatisifed, because undeniably--if you wanted to seek friends, you'd be questioned unsupportingly about your lifestyle by both sexes. Yet even bringing this up doesn't make sense, because it seems to me females would never even think about such a lifestyle.
It's viewed by society that females should spend their time worrying about relationships. Why is this? When wal
You mean the one STRAIGHT dude in a French class.
Exactly *why* is it a "concern" that women are leaving the IT field? Why is it a "cause for concern" that men and women have different predilections with respect to their occupational choices? Is there a "concern" that there are fewer males teaching elementary school than females or becoming nurses, for instance? In a free society both men and women are free to choose the work they do; it boggles the mind that some perceive this is a matter for "concern".
Just like more guys like the 3 stooges, and more women like romantic films. More men like IT and more women like Real Estate. etc. However Both men and women LOVE money, and back in '96 Tech payed NICE! so both sexes went after those jobs. Tech doesn't pay as good anymore, so now its being reduced to those who do it primarily because they like it.
(If at first you don't succeed, do it different next time!)
I guess that was part of my point in being careful what college you choose.
No, I didn't take any of those.
Some are avoidable by taking AP classes in high school.
Some you can take at a community college, where the tuition is less and the freshman classes are usually better taught (because: no grad students, smaller class size, professional emphasis on teaching rather than research). But make sure it'll transfer.
Exam 4/C again. Maybe I'll do better this time.
The reaseon she doesn't have to wait in line for the bathroom is she looks like a man so she can just go into whichever bathroom doesn't have a line. Who's that? It's Pat...
My mum's a java/C++ programmer who works on unix for the department of energy - highly respected in her field.
I'm a C++/multimedia programmer who works mostly on windows.
I have no children, but hope someday to continue the line of women geek programmers.
When I graduated from college - I majored in CS - we had 6 women out of 300 graduates. Then during the IT boom, the numbers seemed to go up - women, as well as men - were attracted by the "promise" of easy money.
Then the dot com bubble burst, and there isn't "easy money" anymore, so the numbers have gone down - back to about where they were before the dot com boom.
I believe that society does not tend to create as many geek women as they do geek men. I'm an exception rather than a trend. I learned to pull the power plug out of vt100 terminals to get my mother to pay attention to me. I helped my dad build our first computer - an 086 - from scratch when I was 8. I played adventure with my mother at 9, and together we charted the maze of twisty passages. I installed Linux at age 14. Had my own web server running in my bedroom by the time I went to college.
But most women aren't given the resources and encouragement I was. I was given free reign of the home computers. I was told at one point that anything I could do to the computers COULD be fixed. So when I corrupted windows at age 10 through experimentation, I was not punished, which allowed me to continue to view computers as learning experiences rather than "Scary machines".
My father had no sons. He loved to teach me "boy things" like tools and cars and computers, because there was no one else to teach it to. Had I a brother, I probably would not have been allowed to convert the spare computer into a linux box. Had my mother not been a mathematician and a programmer, I probably would not have been taught QBASIC when I was 9 - and then given a set of BASIC books and left to my own devices.
Most girls are taught to concentrate on other things. Clothes. TV. Boys. Art. Makeup. I am horrid at wearing makeup. My fashion is incredibly boring. I was never a "popular" girl. Most of the time I got treated as one of the geek guys, because I could program as well as any of them.
Which brings me back to my original point. There are only so many girls raised with the encouragement and inclination to become geeks. There are many more boys who are given the tools and resources and society pressure to become geeks. Therefore, boy geeks will continue to outnumber girl geeks.
The increase in girls in CS in the past few years was mearly an echo of the promise of "Easy money" of the dot comm boom, and now that it is gone, only those who do it because they love to do it remain.
Sincerely, A Girl Geek.
Tepp
And besides, how much fun is it to be the only girl out of a 100 geeks in CS? :)
Well, it's a nice change to not have any lines in restrooms.
A true geek would be able to socially handle a she-geek. Once she's proven herself able to geekify like everyone else, she becomes mainly another geek, and a compelling reason to try and get out more as a side issue.
It's pompus jerks who try to be "geek" without really getting the sub-culture other than "I don't get out much. I like computers. That makes me a geek." The New Hacker Dictionary has this to say on the topic (now remember that "geek" has replaced the term "hacker" in the common lexicon):
I hate it when an asshole makes the rest of hacker-/geek-dom look bad.
I wish I could write clever and witty sigs.
No, they're arguing about it because no one cares if men get into a female-dominated field or not. If women aren't in a male-dominated field, then obviously it's because they're somehow being discriminated against or pushed away or something. If men aren't getting into a female-dominated field, well, it's because the men don't want to. How sexist is that?
Less Slashdot readers getting laid....let alone knowing what a woman looks like in the flesh.
Why? Gay guys are better at flirting with women than I am. They're also not as nice to look at.
-mkb
Oh, and another thing: I never see any similar initiatives to get more men into... say... nursing, or even regular biology.
For nursing, I think the reason has to due with the word itself. Ask anybody out of the blue to draw what a nurse looks like and I doubt you'd find anybody who would draw a male nurse. It's similar to how people thought of doctors decades ago. To me (I'm a guy in case it's not obvious) the word nurse has a similar connotation to the word maid. Sure, you could have a man who comes around and cleans your house and folds your laundry, but what's the word for that?
If society really wants men to enter the nursing profession, I think a new word is required. Otherwise, it will be many decades before the stigma of being called a "nurse" reduces to a level acceptable for the average male ego.
Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
My experience, however, has been that I am a very atypical woman, even for a techie. I'm not good at multitasking, and I am more antisocial than most men. I've also found that most people, both men and women, treat me as invisible. It probably is a matter of personality and vibes more than of looks because plenty of uglier people have friends and dates. But even in my college, a science/tech school with a high ratio of men to women, the men treated me as invisible while they followed around ("glommed") other women, many of whom weren't especially pretty.
They're professionals. They get the fucking job done.
They build the most amazing and useful devices the world has ever seen, and there's no sign of stopping. Boring dayjob engineering has provided you with everything you love and cherish.
Who the fuck cares if the EE who designed your PCI bus wants to watch some fucking TV after work?!
Stay the fuck out of CS, bud. We don't want you here.
I'm not going into nursing, but the university that I'm attending is very well known for its nursing college, and it does actually have some programs to try to encourage males to enter the field.
// file: mice.h
#include "frickin_lasers.h"
--But it's always hard to point out some specific REASON that would explain the differences, be it genetic or upbringing or social expectations or hormonal or anything else.--
It's because they are women and that's the only reason there is. Logic and studies just will not work. Don't play poker with em to figure it out. You might get poked.
Just say "Yes, I agree" and never ever forget unimportant times and dates and you'll be A OK.
>I'm a second year student at Dalhousie
>University (that's in Halifax, if anyone
>cares),
Good to see someone in the same province as me posting. This place doesn't seem to be very "knowledge economy" right now unless you count call centers - I've about given up on sysadminning and am looking for a receptionist job (seems to be all I'm qualified for). Good luck with the CompSci.
>I've noticed that while my first year Java
>course has quite a number of girls in it,
>most of them are from other faculties and,
>quite frankly, wouldn't cut it in any
>IT-related field.
"Java - that's about coffee, right?" I'd be tempted to blame some of it on morons with more money (correction, parents with more money) than brains who follow a boyfriend/girlfriend to college and then just take whatever 'looks good'. I knew a guy who did that. He wanted to play in a band for a living and wound up in a marine biology track. Why? He liked to fish in his spare time, so he figured he'd get to know what bait was best for the fish he liked.
>My question then becomes, how do we get
>more intelligent girls in computer science?
How do we get more intelligent girls? Not to say that boys are more intelligent, but school (and life) seems to select against geek girls. Geek guys don't do so well, and are often bullied, but some of us were fortunate enough to get a fairly large and imposing type build (Thank you puberty!) that scares most bullies away. Girls don't have even that refuge from the more emotional bullying of their peers. They also don't necessarily have refuge with the geek guys, who sadly can get into "EEEE! COOTIES!" mode. Isolation, depression, or forcing onself to conform. Not pretty options for a geek girl to face. (Of course, being a geek guy, I could be completely wrong. I didn't much pay attention to social dynamics of females. Or males, even, I just knew enough that when I got tall and broad, guys didn't tease me or pick fights as much.)
The media isn't kind either: There's even a minor geek guy hero archetype (the guy who stays at base typing on a PC or giving info via radio to the Manly Men who go on the dangerous mission), but geek girls? Unpossible! Sandra Bullock vehicles notwithstanding, all you see is that villainess who can do kung fu and fly planes and use computers, but that person's almost always the "villainess who can do everything", not a specific geek type. And always a villain. (Grrr! Og says smart woman evil! Evil woman witch! Burn witch! Arrrrg!)
>For example, when I see a job ad that says
>"We encourage minorities like blacks, Native
>Americans and women to apply!" I'm sitting
>there thinking to myself, "Uh... OVER 50% OF
>THE FREAKIN' POPULATION HERE! How the HELL
>are a minority?"
Less in the workforce. Also, you've been legislated a minority; therefore, you are a minority. Besides, it's cheaper for the Big Boss to say "We hire minorities, like women!" and junk all male-named resumes for the occasional job than it is for him to pay their women employees identical wages to men. Sexism is alive and well in the workforce. Isn't the difference between female and male wages (on the same job) increasing again? People got so focused on "chairman" vs. "chairperson" and other "political correctness" that they forgot that a lot of women were still only making 80 cents to a man's dollar.
>Doesn't it occur to anyone that we might
>not like that treatment?
Not really. You're supposed to be the downtrodden masses who only get anywhere because the White Male Empire is nice enough to throw you a line every now and then. Merit? Skill? Oh, womenfolk don't have that!
It's part of the reason I don't like affirmative action. It's supposed to be a defense against sexism/racism - force Bad White Men to hire fairly - but can be twisted into sexism/racism easily. The implication is that non-whites/non-males need lower standards. As you've said, any female or non
common sense say two heads are better than one!
TFA alluded to one of the reasons being that women found it too stressful to maintain a tight grip on the ever-changing IT landscape and shoulder the burden of running the household, children, et. al. While I didn't take maternity leave when my kids were born, I've had full custody of my youngest daughter since shortly after she was born. It *is* a lot of responsibility and a certain amount of balance has to be maintained between work and family. But, I'm certainly not running for the IT fire exit. Nor do I think it would send women running and screaming. That being said, the "statistics" referenced in TFA are flawed at best, fraud at worst. /I'd enumerate them, but I have to go patch a security leak in the baby's diaper.
This programming language especially made for girls finaly failed to attracted and keep them within IT world...
You should not work for what you want to do in your spare time.
It would be boring
errera hunamum ets
Don't forget that you married this woman for a reason. Maybe you can work it out. I did and it was worth it.
A couple of maybe/maybe not obvious things to remember:
* you can't control women, so don't even try.
* they need love and to feel that they are loved.
you're stuck deep in a hole... climb out! climb out!
actually, it looks like a manufactured troll...
-pyrrho
you are good with language... but in that way where no one will understand you.
but me. I'll understand.
the rest of those bastards, no.
I think the drop is because there were a lot of people thinking of computing as a really promising career, not because of personal interest... that's dropping now except among people planning to emigrate to india, pakistan and chile.
"Today, compters are WAY harder."
You think computers are hard? Try watching someone give birth! It freaks me out, and I'm female. Anyway...
Aside from that, I'm an IT female in a 95%-guys work environment, and I hardly bat an eye at these so-called complexities - I welcome the intellectual challenge. It's true that most girls in their early years didn't run around taking apart and reconstructing computers much to people's chagrin like I did, but they do exist.
Sure, I might not be familiar with what languages are members of the 16 Computer Language Families, but I can tell you that I'm not afraid of figuring that out. Besides, and I think a lot of people here would agree, making the intangible tangible simply through code is a pretty sweet feat.
We have had women entering the field in droves. There is a strong interest in work that is performed out of doors by young, college-aged women. This mirrors an overall trend seen by outdoor sports retailers who have seen and increase in sales to women.
More of them are getting out of their parent's basements and are coming out into the cold light of day.
"Rocky Rococo, at your cervix!"
Women just aren't that bright, is this really that shocking? Of course not!
Why are there so few men in archaeology? I've taken archaeology courses where the entire class (but me) was girls. If you guys want to meet girls, where the fuck are you?
I was tempted to organize a Society of Men Archaeologists, to mock the Society of Women Engineers. There are lots of organizations of women, but I don't know of any men-only professional organizations.
I _think_ that is somewhat more common for bous (like is autism), but it's still rare enough that it probably doesn't matter... it's not like majority (or even significant minority) of mathematicians have Asperger.
I like paying taxes. With them I buy civilization -- Oliver Wendell Holmes
...then the trend of women leaving the IT field should be apparent...computer geeks + Taco Bell + 12 -pack-a-day Red Bull habit = bad gas .....some of these guys make it bad enough that even the custodians won't come into their office to take out the trash!
There are 10 kinds of people in this world: Those who know binary, and those who don't.
Because the money and glamour has subsided. All in all it's a profession for people of a certain mindset and males are more likely to have that mindset. So without further motivation (big money and feeling good about what one is doing) the remaining rewards are not enough for a woman.
women just don't get computers. they have no intrest in them what so ever. I know women who work as web developers and they still don't really understand anything past the creative side. if a group of people have no intrest in something, stop trying to force them to be for fucks sake. the last thing we need is more unhappy bitchy people in IT
If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
Maybe your problem is that you only spent time with CS people.
I had a great time as an undergrad in CS. Did lots of partying (esp. living in the dorms freshman and sophomore years), played intramural flag football, and did well academically to boot. None of my friends were in CS though, mostly I met them through living in the dorms or something like that. This might be more difficult if you go to a completely tech oriented school, but at a more balanced school with large departments in the humanities and such it shouldn't be a big deal.
As long as your fairly self sufficient academically there's no real reason to heng out with people in your major any more than you want. Building contacts for future jobs maybe (although apparently even this didn't work out to well for you!), but that's about it.
The ultimate plays for Madden 2006
Dude, this line has been getting karma since 1996.
But not once has it gotten any tail.
There are at least two ways that the decreased percentage of women in the industry could be caused by:
1. There is in fact an exodus of women from the industry, as the article implies.
2. More men are joining the industry than women.
I do not really have an opinion about the article; however I disagree with its reasoning.
Not necessarily.
For instance, as a EE, my job involves some C programming and working with RTL code. I never see any finished products, and certainly don't ever touch any finished products with my hands. If I'm lucky, the projects I work on won't get cancelled, and will wind up inside consumer products in 3-5 years. I may or may not ever own one of these products, but even if I did, it wouldn't really matter; my product isn't really recognizable from its competition. Any my involvement in the product was miniscule, as was everyone else's, since this product was so huge and required so many engineers. Needless to say, this job isn't exactly what I envisioned myself doing when I was a wide-eyed freshman in engineering school.
When I go home and work on something, my level of involvement is much higher, since I'm not pigeonholed into such a tiny, focussed task, and the project I work on is something I'm geniunely interested in. The scope is entirely different. When I finish the project, it's then something I use for myself and can feel proud of.
Besides that, anything I work on at home is at a completely different level: it's at the circuit-board level, working with components and a soldering iron, and sometimes microcontroller code. (This is aside from my non-electronic hobbies, such as woodworking.) Everything at work is at the RTL level.
But even at past jobs where I was also working at the board level, I still did board-level hobby projects.
I think people are asking the wrong questions.
We ask: "Why are there no women in IT?"
We know the answer to this question. Women are leaving the IT workforce (if they were ever there), for many reasons. These reasons include everything from potential genetic variation (which I doubt), to elementary education (which there is evidence for), and outright discrimination (which is obviously having an effect).
The question we should ask is: "What can we do about it?"
People would like to argue that this is not a problem, that this is simply a reflection of our genetics. I respond to that by pointing to the many posts relating to outright discrimination and hard evidence supporting latent discrimination existing in our society. I then ask if it harms more people to facilitate this discrimination on the grounds that we may someday be able to provide genetic proof, or to attempt to reverse this negative air that surrounds women in our society.
Personally, I believe we should work harder to fight the existing discrimination. After all, don't women also have the same rights to pursue happiness as the rest of us?
The problem exists, what can we do about it?
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that computing has neither gotten *easier* nor *harder* to do. It is easier to *get into*, but if you're half decent at IT, you will realize that the learning experience is never done. I noticed a lot of stuff here mentions some particular facet of IT, like programming, and lower level tech jobs, but really, how many of you are doing things that you *didn't* learn in school? Do you know enough about linux and systems in general to use an strace, and know enough about the kernel calls that it spits out to acutally make use of the information to troubleshoot a problem when all over attemps have revealed nothing? How many of you guys know how to stop a DoS attack? Multiple types of DoSes? How many of you have a basic understanding of security, how a buffer overflow works, how a virus or trojan works, or how to use common sense to keep attackers out rather than just using "solutions" that some snake oil salesman sold you? etc etc etc!
:)
;)
And while I don't agree with the parent really, as it's really disrespectful for the women that actually make the effort (although hey, admit it people, the perl necklace thing... he's DEAD on)... I can for sure say that the male in me finds it EXTREMELY frustrating and somewhat depressing that he has to sit in a sausage fest for 9 hours out of my day, 5 days a week (sometimes 6).
Mars (aka IT) for sure needs women. Help!
PS: For the women that work in IT firms but do so in things like marketing, CS, sales, reception, etc... why not take up a challenge and get the ball rolling? I'm sure your friendly neighborhood sysadmins would have no problems teaching a lady a thing or two, if she was willing to learn.
Work with three of them, all senior to me.
1 Team Leader/Software Engineer, 1 Senior Software Engineer, and 1 Senior DBA
We're a private company performing DOD contract work.
IT is a second career for me - first was 23-year career in USAF avionics maintenance.
Lots of culture shock came with this career change - from daily BS sessions about goose-hunting and truck-buying to gab-fests about scrap-booking and sticking grandma in the nursing home.
Plus, now I get cramps every full moon.
What's up with that?
"I worked hard for it. I deserve it. And I have it," Campbell said. "It's all mine."
Asperger's syndrome is a very specific kind of autism, that has become a buzzword but relatively few people have.
There's a very broad definition of autism something like "parts of the brain normally used to handle day-to-day activities are instead used for other things" - IANAP, and my interpretion could be off base here, but that's what I'm getting at. There are plenty of folks who would not be diagnosed as 'autistic' because the degree to which they are affected is not disabling, but the way in which they are affected is just the same.
Asperger's syndrome is one example of this that's well described - to quote the autism.org page "Sometimes people assume everyone who has autism and is high-functioning has Asperger's syndrome. However, it appears that there are several forms of high-functioning autism, and Asperger's syndrome is one form.". There are probably dozens of related high-functioning conditions. The "absent minded profesor" is more than a cliche.
Sometimes the "other things" the brain is wired for are quite useful for mathmatics. As far as I know there has only been one person like Srinivasa Ramanujan, but there are plenty of other ways in which a differently wired brain helps in math-related fields, especially superior 3D visualization and th ability to hold large amounts of state about a problem in your head.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
It isn't always easy to be surrounded by men in IT. We talk differently and often think differently: I don't feel the need to throw all those acronyms around and half the time I don't retain what they mean. The kinds of things I actually keep in my brain and the ways I apply them tend to be different than my male colleagues. I'm also married to a programmer and we notice the differences in our work habits.
I had practially no geek tendencies as a child, other than being somewhat socially retarded and taking apart watches. I was an English major and fell into IT via documenting and debugging. When I went for my master's in IT, it was about learning the structure and history behind what I'd learned on the job.
Why do fewer girls get into IT? Who knows. It could the classroom thing, the cultural thing, the odd male geek thing. Maybe we do learn differently and we have to parse the information in ways that works for us. Maybe it's as simple as not showing our daughters how to tear down and rebuild a PC. Maybe it's something that appeals less to girls than to women.
I'd be curious to know what those IT jobs are that women are leaving. I know quite a few "webmistresses" who have gone back to publishing or graphic design, but no female programmers or IT execs (yes, they exist) who have left the field.
Science is about what is, not what we believe or hope. -- Dr. Lonnie Thompson, glaciologist, Ohio State University
a) Prereqs. Learn them. Love them. Almost all CS courses have intro to programming as a prereq. It sort of goes hand in hand with the whole nature of the field.
b) Grad level work isn't meant to be regimented. If you're a grad student, you're most likely there to write a thesis. This means having to do independent research. So grad class assignments are generally designed to give one an opportunity to do such research and perhaps even find a topic for the thesis. If that isn't your idea of fun, don't take the class or just sit in on the class instead of taking it for a grade.
c) Research oriented profs rarely make good teachers. They view their role at the institution as one who brings in grants. Teaching is a minor part of their role as faculty.
d) You've just met a woman that likes to do "computer stuff" as a hobby. It runs in the family as that's my father's job. We actually used to fight over who got to use the computer in the evening back when I was in high school. Eventually got my own box as he's never really gotten past CP/M or DOS and I'm more a Linux gal.
Your soon to be ex sounds a lot like a roommate I had several years ago. Sad thing was that roommate thought she was a geek. Perhaps at math (her major) but when she wouldn't even admin her own machine and instead went to her BF, well... that just ain't up to computer geek standards. She wouldn't even tinker with the config when things weren't working right and would instead just say she'd have her BF fix it.
Why do we get so worked up when a particular demography is disproportionately represented in a particular field? Did anyone consider that sometimes a demographic group as a whole just doesn't have an aptitude for one thing while they do for another? If women are voluntarily leaving IT for other fields, I wish them the best of luck and hope they find a career that's more fullfilling. In the meantime, I'm not concerned that more and more of my co-workers are going to be male.
I graduated from college with degrees in Atmospheric Science. The guys outnumbered the gals 10 to 1. The American Meteorological Society was so concerned about the lack of women in Meteorology that they would create all sorts of scholarships and grants specifically for women (and then of course took away money for scholarships men could qualify for).
In the end, they enticed a few women into the field and others just took the free money and ended up transferring. That's just wasteful and discriminates against men. The fact is, women as a whole are less interested in this field than men. So it's just plain stupid to essentially bribe people who don't have the aptitude for meteorlogy to join their ranks. If they leave, you've squandered your investment. If they stay, they may end up being a substandard meteorologist.
Can't we as a society just accept the fact that men are going to gravitate towards certain professions and women to others when you look at those groups on the whole???? As long as opportunities aren't being denied to anyone, why the hell do we care about this?
bynary & Arkaein if those are your real names. I was more like you guys.
I didn't spend much time with CS People.
I spent my first year in dorms.
I come from a small town. I party. I didn't need university to teach me how.
It was probably because of my small penis.
Besides this is offtopic
and you think males in any other feild are any different? Or women for that matter?
Reality check here, most people are still living in "the 50's". Racism, sexism, outright idiocy and hatred are rampant, nevermind the intellectual racist-hatred-swill that the widespread moral relativism allows.
GENERATION 26: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation.
The successful sperm fights through the crowd instead of leaving BECAUSE of it.
To me it seems quite simple. Men find it easier than women.
(Before you mod me down...)
Men are typically more left-brained & logical, where-as women are typically more right-brained & emotional (or so I've heard).
Emotions do not help you to understand a computer at all. Therefore, we can conclude that the more logical thinkers would find it much easier.
And since men are the more logical thinkers, this supports my original claim.
This statement is forty-five characters long.
25 hours is about right, It does take that long to do housework.
... DOD as a model for women's lib! Maybe I should get NOW to contact DOD and ask them to be poster children for the next ERA campaign!!! Remeber that... the ERA...
Cooking/shopping for food/washing dishes (if you are eating out all the time you are gonna kill yourself eventually; if you are living on microwavable,ready-made stuff, ditto)
Cleaning each room at least once a week -- dusting, ordering things in the room, vacuuming/washing floors
washing/drying/ironing clothes
Fixing things around the house -- there's always a button to be sewn, hole in sock to be mended , gardens, pictures to be framed, etc etc.
Drycleaning/misc errands
we havent gotten to spring cleaning.
never mind yard work, mowing the lawn about every week (when it rains a lot) or every 2 weeks when it doesnt.
You just dont know what it takes to run a house and you are blind to the things that a woman does to make a house a home.
A recent study found that for every two hours a man puts in on domestic chores, a woman puts in five.
Well, I am so glad you can find one example of one guy bolting at 5 pm for his kids. Why isnt every married man doing the same? He doesnt want to or he's too scared to tell his boss that he's leaving.
I love the conservative mind set... endure the pain but dont change a painful system. Be obedient to the boss-man and let him shove hot pokers up your ass. As long as he tells you he's tough and you're a wimp if you complain, you'll be very happy to endure all the sadism that he dishes out.
No, it is the enviroment that needs to change. Not the person. Hate to tell you but the 8 hour day protections demanded by the Fair Labor Standards Act were brought about to even the playing field for WOMEN because of family needs and were extended to MEN to help increase the number of people employed during the Great Depression. Women were agitating for a 40 hour work week many years before FLSA was passed. People realized that they needed family lives and that it was destructive to society not to let BOTH parents bring up their kids. (Never mind the overall effect on people's health. Just worked somewhere where someone dropped dead on the job). People just plain got tired of this crap in the factories and unionized and pressured government for change.
DOD as the model for women's liberation.... awww...give me a break! You're cracking a funny! HA HA. DOD is one of the least women friendly environments that I ever worked in. The only thing that keeps female numbers up in management slots are the EEOC audits and most of the time those slots are management in QA, the GUI subsystem, Test, Documentation -- all the non-line management functions (lower paid functions). The way the guys talk about women is sooo poor....DOD contracts are the least female friendly environment in all of IT. No... you are treated better in test and tech writing because those are the support positions where you are not competing with the guys and that's why women move into them. Plus the hours are more reasonable. That way you can do the housework that your mate wont do and keep a 40 hour work week. I've seen DOD and its contractors deliberately ignore, insult, isolate, underpay and belittle women. What DOD has done for racial equality it sure hasnt done for women.
HA HA
Starnix... you obviously havent been listening to the women's side of divorce cases.... lack of help with housework is one of the leading causes of divorce!!!! This is one of the leading causes of trouble between men and women!
... after a few 60-70 hour work weeks, my house starts to look like crap. After a major deadline is over I generally have to blitz the house and have a pile of personal stuff to catch up on.
Maybe you are the exception...as perhaps you should be if your fiance is the breadwinner these days.
But when people are cranking overtime they are leaving housework undone. I know this
25 hours is quite reasonable estimate for housework. Start clocking yourself. How long does it take to cook the meals, clean the dishes and set the table? That's an 1-2 hours a day easily for just this task. Multiply by 7 and you have 7-14 hours on just meals. Dont tell me you are eating take-out or microwaveable stuff night after night. Your health is gonna catch up with you.
You can't make someone do something they aren't interested in and it sounds like her passion lies in French. And there's nothing wrong with that if she has a talent for it. Interpretters and translators can usually find a job if they're good at it. Perhaps settle on talking her into doing math as a minor or even just taking a calculus course for fun. Heck, one of my classmates thought math was my minor because I took calc 3 for fun in college. Ultimately though, it's her life and her choice.
What, did I piss off some philosophy major or something? Honestly, there's some really stupid moderators here.
This is the second post I've seen today written in some sort of bizarre haiku format. Is it Poetic HTML Formatting Day or something?
Ms. Armstrong interviewed IT professionals at one Fortune 500 company . Based on this one set of interviews, she drew her conclusions. Maybe, just maybe, the actual environment had something to do with the women leaving. It also explains her ridiculous initial number of 41%.
Let's wait until some real scientists have a real study, shall we?
Thalia
The lack of women in IT is a western phenomenon. It is certainly not asian. When I work in Western countries there are no female engineers. From university(Australia) I recall 5 out of 100 in my final year of engineering. While now working in Asia a significant proportion of my group are very competitant female RF engineers and software programmers(try linux kernel level..) and this is the norm here. None of them are western. It is western culture that has a stigma about intelligence/science and careers related to science. It certainly does not exist in China or India or other asian cultures. I should also add that working in IT here is hard(the girls are also doing 12 hour days on average).
One should note however that most western countries are wealthier, not just monetarily but also in terms of rights(social welfare systems, employment laws) which often do not cover IT. Thus I would conclude as IT does not provide security in western countries and security is very important to women-that is why western women do not enter IT. In Asia however IT provides one of the highest forms of security, only because other jobs here have even less security than IT(which has about the same level of security in asia as does it in the west). Thus there are political and cultural reasons for the lack of blondes in IT so both politics and culture in the west would have to change to balance this.
Enjoy mediocrity, tool!
I'm a female in IT in the USA. Here are some workplace (and engineering school) situations that, if changed, can improve the atmosphere and retention rate for females here:
/school environment, even when you don't say it to us.
1) Colleagues get together for lunch, coffee, or otherwise. Other than IT topics (gender-neutral, which is fine), the other topics discussed are quite male-oriented. I mean, male-oriented in a gender-culture kind of way, ie. topics being football (hockey, basketball, softball, etc.)teams and games, cars (models, engines, speed), military vehicles and weapons, etc. Obviously, there are women who know a lot about these topics and are interested in them, however the average woman in the USA is not. The average man in the USA has more knowledge and interest in these topics. End result: a feeling of alienation from colleagues... and sometimes (often) females drop out due to feeling that, to quote a number of females "I just don't feel like I belong". Nothing to do with skill or interest in IT.
Obviously a solution for this is for colleagues (and female engineers) to notice if the topics are getting off-balance in a gender-culture-orientation way, and to add new topics to the mix. Sometimes I change the topic in the following way: the guys are talking about high-powered car models, and I bring up electric vehicles and change the topic to environmentally friendly power generation. Football/hockey/baseball, etc: bring up topic of title IX and how much more money in athletic scholarships goes to men, and topic changes to equality for women. There are lots of gender-neutral topics: politics, environment, non-IT but still technical/science topics, news of the day, stock information, information about other cultures and countries, ethical debates/discussions, etc....
2) In conversations with colleagues (at school and at work), using the word 'he' to describe any generic engineer or boss. *****Very**** alienating, and ****very***** common. "Not a big deal", "means nothing", "The word 'he' is defined in the dictionary to mean both genders." are generally opinions guys give about the topic. Most female engineers will agree with me: it is VERY alienating.
Solution: use the word 'they' and make it a multiple, and it is not gender-alienating. Or use the phrases 'the engineer', 'the supervisor', 'the boss'.
3)Guys nearby (next table, next office) making sexist jokes or showing sexist pictures. We can hear through office walls, and it affects our work
4)Having the only other females in your immediate work environment be secretaries. This is really alienating to a female engineer.
Solution: Hire a bunch of females at the company! It ends up being a vicious cycle when there are few women, and I would appreciate suggestions about what to do about this (as I am not someone who has the power to hire people, at my company). Recruit a bunch of women to the grad/undergrad school by offering fellowships (like GAANN) for underrepresented minorities.
What's a "woman"?
Women are attracted to guys that "Just don't give a shit" (regarding women).
The mentality of IT guys is the opposite, as in: "I need to get laid soon or I'll explode". That shows in their body language etc. (women are good at picking up signs of a desperate man, and avoiding them).
If you want a woman, act cool to her. If you want to drive one off, indicate that you'll do anything to make her sleep with you.
That's one of the reasons women don't like the IT environment is my guess.
- -- Truth addict for life.
You - so - incredibly - nailed - it !
I've been programming since '83, doing commercial business aps since '85 part time while still going to school.
I just quit a job a few months ago for EXACTLY those kind of reasons. I'm looking for another developer job, but the wife and I often discuss the prospect of both of us going into teaching instead (her former occupation, and something I have dabbled in), so as to have some kind of life. It doesn't pay much, but it can sometimes be fun.
I like developing software, and it's nice to be able to support a family with a stay at home mom. However, the rant above, coupled with the constant churning of tools and the "gotta have 3 to 5 years experience with Acme Silver Bullet 7.2" (other languages, brands or versions need not apply) syndrome, and the constant threat of layoffs and outsourcing make doing something else, while perhaps doing some open source hacking once in a while, attractive.
Bah!
Yow! I'm supposed to have a plan?
Are women leaving engineering as a broader trend?
That's a good one. They'd have to have been there in the first place to leave. There are even less women in engineering than in CS... At least that's been my experience.
Perhaps CS is merely becoming more in tune with engineering in general, as opposed to being something new and different, and women are moving on for whatever reason they aren't, in general, engineers? (Whatever that reason may be, I have no clue...)
My general feeling is that if someone couldn't find a job when the times were tough (when I graduated), they didn't deserve the job in the first place.
I'm good at what I do, damn proud of it, too. At first, it seemed there was no hope. Then, I decided to take a few courses at a different university and work on my networking skills.
Bang, a professor requested me to work on a project with him which led to a permanent job, specificly because I am in the 1% of software engineers who is worth the pay.
I'm certain that I'm worth more, but the company I'm with has developed a certain loyality with me by sponsoring my research efforts (AI) and keeping me challenged with the hardest problems they have.
I'm working in flight simulation, so the software is neither trivial (web shit) nor unimportant (web shit). So, if there was no job for you, you weren't an engineer at all.
Take it easy on playing the feel sorry for me card, it only works on those who didn't experience it and know that its bull shit.
As far as women in the computer industry, I am happy to report that they are well represented in the flight simulation companies I have had the privlidge to work for. There have been a few who have left because it wasn't for them, but the ones who have stayed have chosen to stay because they love the challenge of it. Its not easy, but real work shouldn't be, or it'd be boring and I wouldn't do my best. High school was boring, university was more boring, and after, I found something interetsting. Blame me for getting bored at college, but damn, it was easy and boring.
That general tone when talking about women from IT guys explains it all.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Honestly man, the one that seems to lack any substantial life is you.
All my female colleagues would laugh at you, they are all great SAs, DBAs, programmers, etc.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
To deny the above ends any rational discussion frankly....
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
... because it shows sexism, plain and simple.
And we know the IT insdustry is sexist, much more than others, but that is one of our little dirty secrets.
I have worked in many industries and IT is one of the most disgracefully sexist I have to work in.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
"solving the problem of women shying away from technical fields."
Don't be a fucktard. Leave the program how it best prepares the students(who are mostly male), and stop bending over backwards to try to fufill some fucked up quota in your head.
Sorry about that.
fucking illiterate moron.
http://shit.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/03/11/0 27250
Some advice for you from an older female engineer / scientist.
If you love computer science / tech / engineering, stay in this field. And focus on this field. If you're into Kumbaya gender mumbo jumbo, move on over to sociology.
A vicious cycle is when people get into this field for any reason other than they demonstrate some competency in it and have the stamina to go the distance: hard work + quality work.
If your gig is camp counsellor bushwa ("hey now, let's switch the lunch topic!"), please do us all a favor and focus it on your (peut etre future) husband, not the poor men who have to work with you.
I don't think that the stigma for being a male nurse drives away guys from the nursing field as much as the fact that you have to deal with sick/dying people as part of your job.
I know I couldn't handle it. And if I could, I wouldn't become a nurse, I'd become a doctor.
Democrats or Republicans. They are both taking us to the same place and they are not afraid of us anymore.
... nt ...
...sausage party.
Would that be the normal 1-to-10 method, or the much more efficient finger counting in binary? I can't easily carry this onto both hands, but I quite regularly do this with one hand or maybe one hand and the other thumb.
(It doesn't hurt that I'm counting bars of rest, and those are quite frequently in multiples of 4.)
Anyhow, there's a significant difference between "one to five" and "one to thirty-one", when you speak of "counting on one hand". The difference is much more substantial when you're talking about both hands.
Mal-2
How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
If you want a woman, act cool to her.
There are other things you could do, too.
Doesn't it occur to anyone that we just want to be treated like ordinary human beings, no matter what's between our legs? I mean, I'm not going to refuse if somebody throws money at me for having a vagina and using a computer, but it's really not a good way to encourage other girls to join the field
You know what, guys are physically and emotionally co-dependent on girls. We can't help it, we're pratcically born that way - and what isn't already built in is pounced into us solidly by our mothers before we grow up - and then even more so by girls when we become teens.
If you want guys to respect and accept girls for who they are, then you need to respect and accept guys for who they are too.
I first heard it among the women of Caltech. And for the record, that was before 1996. ;-)
- I don't need to go outside, my CRT tan'll do me just fine.
they figured out that the only men in IT are geeks that read technical blogs...
The race isn't always to the swift... but that's the way to bet!
Lots of guys get obsessed with various technical subjects. The best people in a subject tend to be the ones who are obsessed with being good at it.
By obsessed, I mean they love some subject, they are good at it, they love being good at it, they spend an inordinate amount of time working on it, they become really good at it, they love being really good at it. And it pays well.
In a nutshell, I think there are more guys than women who love to code or love to design systems.
The ratio of men to woman in I.T. is becoming more extreme becuase, over the last couple of decades, the perceived value of being very good has kept rising. When I got into the game about 25 years ago, corporations were more likly to value interchangeable "resources"; they didn't want to be dependent on talent. Now, a lot more companies want people who are good. It makes it harder to manage, but a really good developer can be 5 or 10 or 20 times more valuable than a mediocre developer, and a very good developer is generally not paid even twice what a mediocre developer is paid.
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro" -- HST
You're just not looking in the right places. There are studies about how not enough guys are getting into nursing. They just don't get posted to slashdot, since it's not 'news for nurses'.
(And while you might have to deal with more social stigma as a male nurse, you have to admit you've got the numbers on your side as far as odds of getting a date from one of your classmates goes. Being the 'strong sensitive' type won't hurt either. But nursing doesn't pay all that well, so it's a trade off.)
FWIW I just untrolled you while meta-moderating.
Won't recover your karma, but it's all I can do...
Phil
I guess today is a passable day to die.
I remember an article a while back about how someone made a game-of-life simulation about interracial neighborhoods. One of the goals of each individual was to be next to at least one other individual of the same type. The emergant behavior was complete seperation, even though no single individual explicitly wanted complete seperation.
It's possible that there aren't many women in IT simply because there aren't many women in IT. It's rather intimidating to be entering a group composed wholly of Others, and no one like yourself.
If this is true, then the more women who successfully enter the field of IT, the easier it will be for women to enter.
Excellent! love that statement, couldn't agree more! It still is intimidating for women. Doubting their abilities, they cave in (or we should I say), and say, "well I can still have children, at least I'm good at that
True. I think many people feel the way you do.
I think that a non-trivial percentage of those people still have unconscious ideas in the gender area that affect their decisions and perceptions, though. It's called a "blind spot" because the whole idea is that the person is completely unaware that they've got it. (I'm not saying YOU have this... I'm just making a statistical observation of a group.)
I've worked with a number of people who've expressed dismay at the cluelessless of managers like the one who gave a new, less skilled, male coworker preference on the customer engineering tasks. But the funny thing about this is that one of these coworkers (whom I'd term a progressive guy, who had a history of proactively encouraging women to study IT) is actually the one who made the "honey, you don't really want to be lugging 50 pound servers around," comment regarding my aspirations in the network administration realm. Until I really pushed him on it, asking him what I'd ever specifically done or said that indicated to him that that was the case, he had been unaware that he had his own hidden assumptions about gender roles. I listed numerous things I'd said positively about my work in such a role previously, and a number of things I'd done on a volunteer basis after hours lately just to keep my hand in admin activities, and asked him if I'd ever said anything to indicate that there was even one facet of net admin work that I really disliked (as opposed to business apps development, about which I could readily list my frustrations). He finally said, "Wow. That's what I call an eye opener. I hope I haven't unwittingly transmitted that thinking to the students in my classes."
He agreed after thinking about this for a while that while he has always championed the idea of more women being in IT... that he had been making a few assumptions about where in IT women would want to be, and that that had affected the directions in which he steered women interested in IT careers. I just wonder how much more of that is out there in education.
The above is not to take away from this cohort's efforts to help women get into the IT field in general. He's actually put significant effort into it over the years, because he thinks more women should pursue the field than do. But it does show that even someone THAT open to women in IT, can unintentionally direct a woman away from the area of IT for which she might have the most aptitude (which is ultimately reflected in her achievement and satisfaction in that field).
You often have to make a judgement based on very little data.
I definitely agree that "different wiring" may have other positive aspects... but as is, autism is poorly understood, and big part is that it makes communication hard... so it's hard to learn more from the individuals who know the effects best (autists).
Anyhow, I mentioned Asperger's because it is best understood specific sub-type of autism, and while maybe over-generalizing, still better as an example as even broader general term just as autism.
I like paying taxes. With them I buy civilization -- Oliver Wendell Holmes
I'm not surprised women are leaving IT. IT jobs at many companies are virtually 24 / 7 - not including overtime. Women of childbearing age don't generally want to work like that......and bail out fairly quickly as their biological clocks tick onward toward 30. There are exceptions, of course, but my 25 years in IT says this is what I have seen - over time - happen to the women who used to work around me. Another group (or perhaps a subgroup) marry or otherwise hitch up with male co-workers....and then spend a few years at home with babies and some part-time work either contracting or in some other industry completely.
Only boring people are ever bored.
Who are the majority of supervisors? (hint: not women)
People tend to feel closer to people more similar to themselves... last hired and first fired/laid off tend to be minorities. In computer engineering, females are the minority.
Question: Anybody here think that men tend to take more of the credit for shared projects, whereas women tend to be supportive and complimentary about their coworker's performances on projects?
Cheri (I don't think you are a woman, darling)
Indeed I do focus on computer engineering and I am doing quite well at it.
It is quite unscientific of you to think that simply because computer engineering and gender studies are two different majors (and graduate degrees) that one cannot think of the two fields at the same time.
In fact, in our field, effective small group interaction is extremely important. And making all members of a team feel included, rather than alienated, makes for a much more effective WORK team.
From the sarcastic and bitter tone of your posting, I would guess that you have problems working with women. I suggest that you read the posting above yours, in order to gain sensitivity and learn ways to interact inclusively with female colleagues. Your company, you, and your colleagues will benefit from the improved work atmosphere.
(This subject line is what the subject line for the post above should be corrected to)
The reason women are few in numbers in IT is because they're not good at computers. I don't know any study or anything to back it up but that's just how it appears to me. I rarely see females who genuinely enjoy tinkering and writing code that does neat things. Always, in class, they seem to hang on to other classmates and try to get help. They never enjoy the process of figuring things out to make it work the way they want it to. Now that the bubble is over, there's no other incentive to go into the field.
Yep, totally true. A friend and I were chatting just this week about the whole pointlessness of references beyond it being proof that the person has at least 3 semi-reputable-sounding friends.
Thanks for the tip. I want to give you mine and I can't figure out how to message you through /.
:)
So, my suggestion is to use a P2P program, I reccomend eMule, and then search/download;
"David DeAngelo - Double Your Dating 1.avi" replace the 1 with 2-6 for the other episodes.
Your source told us WHAT to do, mine also tells you WHY to do it in that way, how women evolved to become like that.
Have fun man
- -- Truth addict for life.
Gee, this only got a 2?
Early conditioning makes a huge difference in what we attempt as adults.
OK, now what?
If I had to hazard a guess as to why women are trending away from IT it would be that, on average (so don't come back and say, "I'm an exception to your rule, you bonehead!"... I don't care... I'm saying on average here) women value stability more highly than men and the IT industry is going through some rough times right now. There is no telling when any one of our jobs is going to be eliminated or offshored. Just getting back from maternity leave? Sure, your job still exists. In Bangalore. Your plane leaves tomorrow morning. What? You quit? I'm shocked!
Incidentally, I do think it's a shame if the trend of women leaving IT is true. Some of the traits that will be missed are:
- Better focus. "Yes, Bob, I'm aware that there are 267 complicated yet valid ways to solve this problem. Now could we please just discuss the 2 or 3 most practical solutions?"
- Less ego-driven thickheadedness. "Yes, Bob, I'm aware that you like your $1 bill, but I'm pretty sure my $50 bill is more valuable. Yes, I can see yours has George Washingon on it while mine only has Ulysses S. Grant."
- Women don't read so much slashdot when they are supposed to be working.
Ahh well."Avoid employing unlucky people - throw half of the pile of CVs in the bin without reading them." -- David Brent
But congratulations on figuring out at such a young age how harmful affirmative action is to those who it is supposedly protecting. You're right to be upset that every time you make a mistake somebody is rationalizing it based on the fact that you are female and were only put in that position to fail because of affirmative action. You're right to be upset at the burden that is placed on you to perform twice as well as any man performs in your position so that you can earn the recognition that you deserve rather than just being thought of as a "token female".
Probably the most delicious irony of it all is to watch minority leaders such as Jesse Jackson clamoring for more affirmative action. "You can't take away affirmative action! Minorities won't be able to compete on a level playing field!" Puh-leeze. Maybe he could give the people whose interests he supposedly represents just a little more credit.
Unfortunately, I don't have any advice for you. You could spend your time campaigning against affirmative action, but you alone will probably never change the system. Perhaps your only recourse would be to perform at such a high level, way higher than any man, that it is unquestionable that you have earned the right to be in whatever position you are in. Of course, you probably will always have to deal with the fact that some outsider somewhere who doesn't know you will probably write you off as an affirmative action case.
Sucks, don't it?
"Avoid employing unlucky people - throw half of the pile of CVs in the bin without reading them." -- David Brent
As a woman, few things are funnier than hearing (or reading) what slashdot nerds think we want.
When I was in school (in a CS department, no less), I didn't like the guys because of a general inexperience with dealing with girls. It's college. EVERY GUY needs to get laid or they'll explode. That's part of being in the age group.
in the first sentence you basically say: "you are without clue".
and in the paragraph after you agree with me, go figure! Sounds a bit bratty and disagreeing just for the disagreeing.
By the way, did you download that vid?
- -- Truth addict for life.