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Math Skills Survey Shows U.S. Lags Behind
3l1za writes "The New York Times reports that the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development has released its results (pdf) for a test of mathematical skills given to 15 year olds in 40 different countries. A few apparent anomalies: The US kids rated 28th of 40 (so in the bottom third) while the Czech Republic, which spends in education 1/3 of what the US spends, ranked in the top 10. Further, only about 1/3 of US kids reported that they did not feel as though they were good at math, whereas about 2/3 of Koreans reported this--and the Koreans ranked in the top three. 'Mr. Schleicher said that students in countries that emphasized theorems and rote learning tended not to do as well as those that emphasized the more practical aspects of mathematics.'"
Now someone is going to tell me that I can't eve count to one!
We = Lazy. Leave us alone and quit picking on us :)
All those numbers in the post are hurting my head.
Except for ending slavery, the Nazis, communism, & securing American independence, war has never solved anything.
Our American Football programs are still tops!
A yank kid would now say
"Yea! 1rd post!"
I could've told you that...
US's education sucks....
15 year olds in 40 different countries...
...US kids rated 28th of 40...
...which spends in education 1/3 of what the US spends...
...only about 1/3 of US kids reported that they did not feel...
...whereas about 2/3 of Koreans reported this...
..plus 4, minus the 7 equals...
oh man...I am confused already..
Bah!
In this country, there's a huge stigma attached to being good at math. If you are good at math, you're a nerd, where as all the cool kids suck at math, and are proud of that fact. Change the perceptions, and you'll go a long way toward improving the scores.
I always wonder, when I hear that East Slobovia has better math scores than the US, whether they are really testing all their schoolkids, or only reporting the average of the top 5%. The US is pretty egalitarian in our education system, compared to your typical poor country.
Have you read my blog lately?
When you have computers and calculators, who needs math?
We should put our politions on it. They will figure out how to make kids better at math. We know how well they currently handle numbers.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Math is hard.
Moo.
In Korea, only old people aren't good at math...?
This survey has come out at least once a year for as long as I can remember. "US kids lack in X discipline." Next up: US childhood obesity is the rise.
It's not shocking at all. When bush wins by a landslide, we aint too bright.
More /. 'news'. Come on guys..
Perhaps instead of demanding more money, schools should evaluate how they are spending the money they already get.
HINT: I bet Czech schools don't spend millions of dollars (or preferred local currency) on state-of-the-art sports facilities and equipment.
There's a Mercedes gap too. I want one and can't afford one, but it's not government's job to do anything about it.
which spends in education 1/3 of what the US spends...
Is that per capita?
It would be cool if it didn't suck.
"Rarely is the question asked, "Is our children learned"."
Not all occupations demand good mathematical skills. Secretaries, truck drivers, construction workers, basketball players, etc. do not need advanced math. It so happens that America is a nation where a large number of our occupations are not highly intellectually demanding. Apples and Oranges here.
As I highschool student, I can say that math/science isn't stressed as much as it should be, and as much as I remember, Algebra 1 was crap, didn't retain anything of value because it was lost in the sea of crap.
How many careers actually use higher-end math at work? Even in programming for biz apps, one does not use much algebra, and zero Calculus. I agree that it is a nice skill to have, but it may be costing tens of thousands of dollars per student to force them into something not used that often.
It may make sense for other countries because they are getting all our offshored brain-work, while we do only the marketing and shmoozing and all the other fluff stuff that our unemployed geeks are not good at.
Face it, math is old-school.
Table-ized A.I.
The U.S. performance was about the same as Poland, Hungary and Spain
;)
That should make your President happy!
Free XBox, PS2
The US School system needs a f'en major overhaul. The money is there (we're #2 in the world in public funding per student behind Sweden).
The system is just horseshit. No responsibility, teachers can't teach, kids are a bunch of bastards, and the parents are taking absolutely no responsibility for the kids.
But of course the answer is more money!
The New York Times reports that the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development has released its results (pdf) for a test of mathematical skills given to 15 year olds in 40 different countries
.375 years old). Something's fishy here.
Um, according to these figures the average age of these "children" in each country was barely five months old (15/40 =
'Mr. Schleicher said that students in countries that emphasized theorems and rote learning tended not to do as well as those that emphasized the more practical aspects of mathematics.'"
I'd agree with this. In high school, I enjoyed (and tended to do better) on more practical mathematics as opposed to theorems, proofs, etc. However, when taking the AP test, I felt having a knowledge of proofs helped in several key areas.
I think we are moving towards tests which are targeted at more real world problems which the U.S. systems do not emphasize (or at least, did not when I attended school) in their curriculm.
-Teiresias
just goes to show you liberal ideology is wrong. throwing more money at something doesn't fix the problem.
Does the name Pavlov ring a bell?
Smart kids aren't cool. I think this is a huge problem in schools. When kids don't want to learn, no amount of education will reach them.
God spoke to me.
In Soviet Russia, numbers count you!
So this is news why? Its been that way and been known since my mother was a kid. Nothing better to do today eh?
Provide a link or stfu, you racist propogandist.
I have three kids that will be starting school soon (one of them being in Montessori preschool already). Do I want them to feel good about themselves? Sure, as long as it's because they're doing so well in the classes that they're working hard to excel in. If my kid's flunking math because he won't apply himself, then I want her to feel embarrassed about her performance and not proud of the fact that the school would probably advance her to the next grade anyway.
There are some cripplingly serious problems with the American educational system. A severe overemphasis on underserved self esteem is high on that list.
Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
Teacher does'nt want anyones feelings to get hurt. :(
The engineers from outside the US were able to do the job. Only the top notch products of the US school system could cope.
It was very sad.
Mr. Schleicher said that students in countries that emphasized theorems and rote learning tended not to do as well as those that emphasized the more practical aspects of mathematics.
Doesn't this stem from the fact that theory-based instruction has a much steeper learning curve?
Emphasizing the theory encourages creativity later on, but students initially grasp it less quickly.
Students who know the "mechanics" of standard problems will always do best on standardized tests (hence the standardized?).
Incidentally, I found that my brother, who is a freshman in high school, learned multiplication several years ago in one messed-up way (I'm 13 years older than him). While we would simply write this:
137
x23
137 x 20 + 137 x 3
While I have no problem with distributed equations in, say, algebra, this was a bad way of explaining it to someone new, I think. Hooray for public education.
--Chag
This is mostly a cultural issue, not an education system issue. As evidenced by data wherein poor countries outperform the US despite our larger budgets.
Kids, and many of their parents don't care about school or education. They will get what they want. They resist teachers and throw up roadblocks. Many parents simply won't help when a teacher explains that their child needs it. That's what's putting our education system in the toilet.
The only case of education system failure is in misapropriation of money (also a cultural issue). Sometimes a wacko or two in high places decide to fund a pet-project instead of math/reading...
Slashdot Syndrome: the sudden, extreme urge to correct someone in order to validate one's self.
Apparently not.
cheap labor conservatives - they want to keep you hungry enough to be thankful for minimum wage.
It went like this:
1/0
BRAIN FAILURE!
Jonahweb.com has stuff.
I understand the need for education. It is necessary to gain wealth in the world. However, maybe we should compare our education with those of other successful countries, not ones that are still stuck in the dirt. Arithmetic is not everything.
December 07, @02:39PM...3l1za...15...40...28th...40...the bottom third...1/3...10...1/3...2/3
whoah, slow down sonny.
why else do you think your tax dollars are being taken away from education and pumped into unneccesary wars?
If your long-term plan is to maintain power by sending kids to die in a desert for whatever "bureaucratic" reason you can muster, then why bother educating them any further than you have to?
He doesn't appear to be missing many. They seem to be failing in unison. At least Bush got them working together.
It's not an anomalie, eastern european countries have great education systems, even if "cheap". I live in Portugal and we get a load of imigrants from Ukrania an several other countries of the area, trying to earn some money. They mostly end up in the construction business, but they're all college graduates, management, economy, engineering. And they're well-formed people.
I was surprized the first time I came to know that you folks are allowed to use calculators in high school exams!! And can even use programmable graphing calculators in university.
Tell ya somthing. ditch those calculators, and you'll solve half of the problem!
PS: In India, calculators are banned from exams/classes till high school. In university exams/classes you're only allowed to use at max non-prgrammable scientific calculators!
- mritunjai
"students in countries that emphasized theorems and rote learning tended not to do as well as those that emphasized the more practical aspects of mathematics."
Well, that just tells us that the test had too many practical problems on it, and not enough theory!
Not this time!
"The US kids rated 28th of 40 (so in the bottom third)"
It's helpful that they said "bottom third". Otherwise, we might've mistaken them for being in the top 10.
Prontab.net - Porn for geeks. (nsfw)
The USA has suffered from a strong tendency to teach maths by encouraging students to explore and find their own way.
The Koreans drum theorems into kids' heads until they become second nature.
Anyone who thinks kids can learn maths by thinking about it is so wrong it's a shame. Maths is all about learning a set of tools, built up layer upon layer upon layer, where constant repetition and use are key elements to learning.
Anyone who has actually learned and used maths - and IT is very similar - will appreciate that solid practice over decades from a young age are needed before we are able to solve complex problems.
Ban so-called "learning psychologists" from school boards and allow professionals in each domain to define the curriculum.
Sig for sale or rent. One previous user. Inquire within.
I was looking at the countires that are ahead of us, and i saw Latvia. I thought to myself "Latvia? How the crap did we get beat by Latvia? I don't even know where Latvia is!!". I don't think i could possibly be helping us get better in our standings....
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the Korean educational system emphasize rote? And doesn't the US emphasize "the more practical aspects of mathematics"? So saying that the rote learning approach doesn't do as well seems like a bit of a stretch...
From what I've heard, statistics like this are always skewed in favor of non-US counties, because not all counties educate all children. In many countries only the more gifted children even go to the high school level, so of course their average is going to be higher.
Punctanym: alternate spelling of words using punctuation or numerals in place of some or all of its letters; see 'leet'
What I would like to see is a check on the correlation between students per classroom and math skills. Math is difficult, both as a subject and to teach it, and it does take a lot of effort all around. Also, in many cases kids won't know WHY they are learning it - many of them think (correctly) that doing an integral is something they will never need again. Learning for its own sake is not an attitude that you find much in the US - it should be no surprise that subjects without immediate practical appeal are not adsorbed.
This won't change (in the US at least) until it matters in some practical, impacts daily quality of life way. Given high standards of living, there is much less incentive to be explorative and imaginative. It is probably quite true, at least in the US, that a self-maintaining holodeck will be the last invention we ever create. Here, intelligence is only needed as a way to improve our state of luxury, or wealth, or otherwise get tangible gains. Intangibles are of no interest, and in such an environment guess how well math will do.
"I object to doing things that computers can do." -- Olin Shivers, lispers.org
I believe that there is a perception in the US that math is _supposed_ to be hard.... so teachers make it hard.
Many of the math classes I have taken require you to memorize various formulas etc. vice putting the emphasis on how to work the formulas and understand what it is you are really doing. So if you cannot properly regurgitate the Quadratic Equation come test day you just missed every one of those problems.
I have asked teachers "Is this a Math Class or a Memorization Class?" a few times... and they all get pissed so they are obviously aware that they are artificially making the class harder than it needs to be (or hard in the wrong area).
The water gets stirred up again, and everyone starts screaming that we need to put more money into the school system. If this were a business, we would find out where the money was going and what it was doing. Why is it that many private schools cost far less per student, yet the students get higher scores and better chances at good jobs. Before you start claiming we were all "fortunate sons", the school I went to for half of my highschool years had a tuition of 2,500 a year per student. My classmates are now doctors, nurses, and couple of graphic designers. One even was offered several 4 year scholorships based on his math abilities.
Maybe the issue is family life? Parents who take the time to find a good solution for education are more involved? Who knows, but the point is it DOESNT have to cost more.
Spoiled american kids with too many video games... brain rot.
Does anyone fail anymore? Does anyone get held back a grade?
Wait 40 more years and see where our country is. If we continue to not teach our children and continue to shove jobs onto counties that do
We be dumb
*DrugCheese rants*
'Mr. Schleicher said that students in countries that emphasized theorems and rote learning tended not to do as well as those that emphasized the more practical aspects of mathematics.'"
*gasp*
You mean it's the dreaded STORY PROBLEM?????
Oh no! Students hate them, it requires work on the part of teacher to grade them...hmmm
Karma: Chameleon (mostly due to the fact that you come and go).
perhaps an indication that money money spent doesn't mean better education? just a biased opinion from an old timer who did all the math problems using paper and pencils but fancy graphing calculators and laptop computers will cost more money but don't necessarily mean you learn better using them.
From the nytimes article:
It separated students into seven groups, ranging from Level 6, the best, to Level 1, which the authors viewed as a minimal level of competence.
(Note: don't flame me for illiteracy; I see that the next sentence implicitly defines a "Level 0"...)
Only your math skills.
2 + 3 == Chair!!
In Soviet Russia...michael would be rotting in Siberia!
'Mr. Schleicher said that students in countries that emphasized theorems and rote learning tended not to do as well as those that emphasized the more practical aspects of mathematics.'
So it seems that it's important after all for teachers to be able to answer the eternal question in math classes: What's this good for? Why do we need to know this?
It's a tough question to answer, and most teachers I ever had would dismiss it with "You just do" or something equally meaningless. The truth is that much of what we learn and practice in math classes is important to know mainly because you need a good foundation before you can understand the more advanced material. But almost any mathematical concept has real-world uses, and it sounds like emphasizing those more could be helpful.
This would qualify better as "Olds"; it certainly isn't new!
The US has lagged behind the rest of the world in Mathematics for soooooo long it isn't even funny! Why should this change now?
Has Bush spent lots more money on education? No.
Has studying suddenly become popular? No.
While parents are concerned about getting their kids into good schools, do they do it by pressing them to do well on tests? No - they get their kids into special prep programs, spend money on tutors, and pull family connections. Actually learn math? Please!
Will this change in the near future? Not likely!
--LWM
But look how much self-esteem we have!
The emperor is naked.
In general, the guys applying for H-1B are the top notch of THEIR school systems. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but most people in most countries still don't get college degrees, and you aren't going to be getting jobs in the US without educational qualifications high enough to back you up.
Just something to think about.
picpix image polls. create - share - vote. fun!
I used to tutor mathematics in S. Florida (algebra, calculus, statistics). Florida ranks near the bottom on many surveys so my experiences might not be too representative of the country. One point in the article that's particularly true is that students learn by rote.
For example, many of my calc students could do simple integrations and derivatives. They knew, by rote, how to differentiate sin(x)dx or x^2 but didn't know what exactly it meant. They knew that the first derivative of a position function could give a number, and they could solve some physics problems using this information, but couldn't explain what exactly was happening. These were calc students. Worse were the algebra students who could solve quadratic equations or plot but couldn't see how the function related to the graph. Even worse were the statistics students who just knew how to plug in numbers into a formula but had no clue what the statistics meant.
I don't know if there's an easy solution. Throw money at it? Maybe. If kids had laptops with MuPAD or Octave or Mathematica, maybe some would better visualize what's happening. Maybe they need to take away all the computers and have the students do calculations repeatedly until they see patterns and realize what's happening.
I'd recommend emphasis on methods like dimensional analysis. Forget about the numbers for a moment and try to determine what sort of units you should get back. Not saying forget about arithmetic, but stress the concepts more than the manipulations.
The Education System sucks here yet we dump shitloads of money into the system and the teachers unions are continually demanding more and more money stating that their salaries suck.
Yes its the teachers. Yes its the parents. Yes its the students. No its not a matter of school budgets.
These numbers clearly suggest this.
I'm guessing you're refeering as US as a developed country.. and the rest of the world isn't? But I dont see how most countries school systems are alike.
Doesn't mean one school system is the right one, and another one isn't.
At least in sweden the goverment doesn't make schools force the kids to study hard in-order to simply keep the grades of their kids at a certain level. In order for the school to remain open. In sweden we actually try to make our kids study to get knowledge and not for the papers to look good.
Sorry to be sounding like a troll, but that generalisation upset me.
*ducks*
"I'm just here to regulate funkiness."
More and more, I am seeing that my elementary school must have been an oddity in the US. We were a public school in a small town in TN, of all places, but it was extremely progressive. There was a mix of rote- and practical learning taught at each level. In second grade, we learned the multiplication tables up to 12s, had regular 4M (100 questions in less than 4 minutes) tests, and spent a large amount of time on accounting. We even learned some (very) basic algebra. Throughout elementary school, we had these math projects that involved physical objects, and our tests were generally in word-problem form. Then, in fifth grade, all the kids who were good at math were sent to learn pre-algebra and algebra 1 through interactive computer programs while the other kids got more hands-on help with their math woes. And at some point, we had fraction-based space-invaders computer games to play in between learning segments...
Someday, maybe I'll tell you all about our phys. ed., art, and music programs. =)
Live free or die
"The US kids rated 28th of 40 (so in the bottom third) while the Czech Republic, which spends in education 1/3 of what the US spends, ranked in the top 10."
Population of the States: 293.0m
Education budget 2004: 53.1 billion USD
USA GDP 2004: 10.99 trillon USD.
Population of Czech Republic: 10.2m
Education budget: can't find any numbers
CR GDP 2004: 161.1 billion USD.
I can't find education budget figures for CR, but since their GRP in 2004 is 161.1 billion USD, I doubt very much they're spending 33% of their entire economy on education.
--
Toby
The "winner" of this test was Finland, a country with no wholly-private schools at all. (Didn't RTFA, but I read about this earlier today.) This is a very positive thing, since I've always thought that expensive private institutions are a more expensive version of daycare centers (to paraphrase a certain science fiction cartoon). Also, they tend to polarize society into "rich and poor" at a very early stage. Granted, I am Finnish myself but I do believe that it is better for everyone if every student has the same opportunity to study, regardless of social status.
If you are bad at math what is the easiest best paying job you can get into?
Education. There is only the colleges minimal math requirement is needed.
So people who hate math are teaching math to kids. Thus applying their bad feelings towards math to their students. So when the students get older they hate math too.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
The answer is to outsource our math tests to an offshore company. There we can not only raise the averages, but do it at a fraction of the cost (which they will be able to calculate for us).
--
"Me fail English? That's unpossible." - Ralph Wiggum
If it's the so called "Pisa Study" the article is about, you may be interested in the fact, that Finnland ranked no. 1 in all categories but one. Finnland also performed best in the first version of the study three years ago.
No, I'm not Finnish.
One of my kids attends school here in the US (third grade), and the level of "math" that she is being thaught is amazing, at least compared with the one that I had back in my "third world" country. Abstract reasoning, pattern extraction, problem solving. All of that has been present since first grade. But, the paradox arises because I am also the legal guardian of a high school boy and I can tell you, that what he is being thaught is a joke ! (I must concede that he is not in the AP or Honor classes).
So what is going on? It seems that there is a disconnection between the advance skill development provided to kids during elementary years, to what is actually available to them when they reach HS. Just the fact that math becomes optional in the last years of high school is enough to explain the findings of the study.
The education system in the U.S. is seriously flawed.
It tends to focus on the left brained aspects of learning (memorization, formulas, etc) without effectively applying the right brained aspects of learning (imagination, hands on application, experimentation, etc).
Many ADD / ADHD kids do poorly in school and are medicated, yet regularly test 20 - 30 IQ points above tha average student in the class. The schools view these kids as broken, but in reality it's the school system that is broken.
If you put an ADD / ADHD kid in the right kind of learning environment *for them* and they excel, learning faster than most educators and administrators would think possible.
I score 145 on IQ tests but was bored to tears in school and was a poor student, graduating from high school with a B average. But when I want to learn something and I can learn it my way (hands on, knowing *why* I'm learning it and how I'm going to *use* it) I learn very, very fast with excellent retention.
If every kid in America were left brained to the point of being anal retentive then our school systems would be just perfect. But we have at a minimum an equal mix of left and right brained students, if not leaning more to the right. The left brained types, unfortunately, are the ones who go on to be school administrators and run the bureaucracy, and until that changes we're screwed.
Lose Weight and Feel Great with Isagenix
I don't understand why this is surprising. In the US, math teachers are teachers first and mathematicians second, making for people who can communicate the lesson plans, but not any "real world" applications. Then, student cheating runs rampant in the schools. Parents take teachers to the school boards if their children get less than an A. And the society in general values athletics over academics.
So, if little Johnny actually wants to learn math, he has to deal with a society that makes fun of him because he doesn't want to be a dumb jock. His grades get watered down by grade inflation from other students' parents and the widespread cheating from his classmates. And lastly, he has to deal with his own self-doubt regarding the usefulness of math because his teacher won't or can't tell him how trigonometry applies to the "real world".
...towards our average. I'm a high school teacher (Civics, so I guess I'm off the hook for now! :) and we are struggling with having to include 99% of our students in our standardized test scores.
If you take out certain populations, like special education (which I'm sure many other countries do), our numbers would dramatically improve. Many countries have certain requirements for who even goes to school.
As a coach also, I guess it's like having a large school, and trying to find a good football team out of all those students. Sure, you have more to pick from, and the talent of those few is high. However, if you tried to average out the "football skills" of the entire student population at the large school, the talent would be lower.
We = Americans.
1. We rely on technology too much. How are we going to test a 15 year old on math questions when they have been punching calculator buttons since they were 5? We sell calculators to specifically calculate how to tip. Come on, it's either 15% or 20% of the bill, how fucking hard is that?
2. Being good at math means being less popular in school. It's the truth. Math has one of the worst images surrounding it. You are a tool if you are good at math. Yeah, the Slashdot crowd might not be bothered by it but a teenager going through puberty coupled with peer pressure, more than likely, they aren't going to try too hard.
3. Athletics are deemed more important. Look at any traditional American high school. Guess who gets paid the most? The athletic director. Guess where all the fundraising money goes? Most likely the sports teams.
4. Our teachers are some of the worst paid workers in the nation. I have a feeling that South Korea, Finland and Hong Kong pay their teachers a little better than we do.
Certainly these aren't the only problems but they are the obvious ones. Feel free to tack on anything else.
..we belgians own you.
Our intelligent designer has never created an animal that we couldn't improve by strapping a bomb to it.
Let's not forget that there are many other factors that influence a persons abilty to do math.
I would like to see this data as part of a trend instead of a one-shot sample. (i.e. give the same test every year to every x-year student, and then repeat for 30 years)
And let's test them again as adults to see if they actualy remember anything.
-----History
I've lived all my life in Canada so I don't know how things went elsewhere, but my generation was the 'first' to be taught in all-metric. Calculators (cheap enough for kids to own) were _just_ getting solar-cells so that you didn't need to worry about the battery.
------
When I was in school I was good at complicated algebra. Today I might struggle to figure out: 2b+3=13 b=??
It's about how much you use it. I became dependant on those calculators, and now my brain is mush thanks to having a PC handy.
I can easily remember a dozen different DOS commands that I still use to trick Windows into behaving the way I want it to. I have a tough time remembering the 6 *nix commands that I need to use the computer.
lazy ? Check
spoon-fed ignorant ? Check
unable to grasp simple concepts to make my daily life easier ? Check
unwilling to learn new information ? Check
Dammit, I'm my dad.
"The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." ~Plato (427-347 BC)
Way to be down on the US man, except you forgot one thing - 28th out of fourty just doesn't work out to being in the bottom third, no matter what country you are from!
And you would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for those damn SlashDot readers!
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
4 out of 16? You think the other 12 were not top brand name products of their country? And seeing how the US has less than one quarter of the world's population, wasn't the US then OVER represented at your job?
What would you expect?
Most education funding goes into administration. There are a lot of non-teachers getting salaries from that funding. I've heard that in California and Arizona there are more administration headcount than there are teachers.
When I went to school, the administration position for the elementary school (principal) was the 6th grade teacher. The administration office for half the county was this little 2 office building near the high school. How things have changed.
I caught the tail end of an NPR (National Public Radio at NPR.org) piece on this yesterday, and it was mentioned that the US tests a _much broader_ group of students than other countries, who only test "college-track" students. That could explain some of the disparity. As an Ivy-League product of the US Public School System (NJ, CA, NY, WI, PA) I can say that there's always room for improvement - but it's mostly in parenting.
--- Corporations Are A Fad.
I did study mathematics in US and Russia and I can compare the qualtity of education. It seems that teachers in Russia (and probably the rest of europe) emphasize the understanding the underlying concepts of mathematical theories rather than methods of solving a particular problem. The american students were expecting that the problmes given on the exam are exactly the same that were covered in class, and were always complaining when the professor made even trivial changes in the problems. It could've been the quailty of the students in my particular university, but now I am working at the major government research organization and we get a lot of students coming for the internship in the summer, and it seems that people from europe are much better at solving problems that they never seen before. In these days ability to solve a known problems has almost zero value because it is something that could be done by a simple shell script. Although, sometimes I see US students who are very good at mathematics, those studends usually come from the better schools like MIT and Rice, but they tend to be self taught and usually say that they pretty much skip most of their classses regarding them as the complete waste of time, and I can't say that I disagree with that. This applies
so according to that study I'm the best in geometry
thus you can all welcome me, your
new mathematics-overlord
now bow for me and get me my 40 virgins
"The day Microsoft makes a product that doesn't suck is the day they make a vacuum cleaner."
Mr. Schleicher said that students in countries that emphasized theorems and rote learning tended not to do as well as those that emphasized the more practical aspects of mathematics.
Not to challenge the fact that the US education system is mathematically challenged but I have to wonder if the test might of had a more practical bias skewing the results somewhat, kinda like having a developer having their computer skill tested by their ability to do system administration.
I stole this Sig
WHAT you mean there are children LEFT BEHIND!
OUTRAGE I tell you, OUTRAGE!
They must have used the wrong test, we weren't teaching to that one.
Really ? A country where a large percentage of the voting populace believes the world is 6000 years old is performing poorly in an educational evaluation ? Shocking.
Seriously now, only the gifted kids in other countries go to school? Really. Explain Canada then (7th).
The U.S. public school system is a product of liberalism. We spend far more money than most countries and get little in return. When I lived in K.C. they did a study and determined that with what it cost to send 1 student through the system there they could have put the same student through Harvard and provided him limo service to and from school for his duration. Before people start with stupid remarks about Bush, understand that Democrats controlled Congress and the Senate through the formidable years of the public school system. Furthermore, the teacher's union (who supports Democrats) opposes things like No Child Left Behind, which requires them to meet expectations. Getting a grade is being replaced with getting marks for trying in many schools. This is being documented in many cases. Schools like to complain that NCLB is under funded when the truth is there is a lot of that money untouched by schools.
I think I saw this headline on Slashdot before. I'm too lazy to look for it though (which...I'm guessing is a good reason we Americans aren't good at math).
Sure there are bad teachers, but my wife is a teacher for the 7/8th grade and I hear the same complaint from all of her teacher friends. Do to standardized testing and the fact that in her school system, the schools with the highest scores get the most funding (seems backwards to me), doing well on those test(s) is the prime objective. As such, the teachers are told by the administration to start prepping them for the test(s) from day one. 90% of the test prep is memorization. This means that the student may know the scientific method or 12x12, but not why or the reasoning behing it. Also due to "No Child Left Behind" and having to be PC (there are no dumb kids), the teachers have to teach to the lowest common demoninator (insert Simpson's Nelson's Ha-Ha here).
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a fat white guy who is threatened by change."
I was thinking about my son when I first wrote that sentence, then decided to change it to refer to my daughter by replacing "him" with "her", missing the initial "he".
To save you the trouble of commenting on that, let me be the first to mention that none of my kids are hermaphrodites. There dad just happens to be a lousy editor.
Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
Steroids!
BTW, speaking of math, DEC 25 = OCT 31. Really.
What he means is that in the US, everybody goes to school. Everybody must have at least some high school education in the US. As far as I know, nearly ever state requires kids under 16 to go to school.
This requirement doesn't exist in many other countries. In other countries, an education is considered a privilege, so there are people who just don't get the chance to have one. Other countries also have entrance exams for their equivalent of high school. If you can't pass the exam, tough luck. Your education is over.
So what the top poster is pointing out is that the samples involved are not neccesarily equivalent. In the US, you're taking an average of nearly every school-age person in the country. In other countries, you may be taking the average of a top stratum of the population. So it shouldn't be a big surprise that the US does not come out on top.
Chris Rock once said that "Nothing makes a nigger happier than to not know something"
Imagine being a nerdy black kid. I was. The black kids sometimes though that I was "trying to be white" because I was good at math. The white kids often resented that I was "showing off" that I was good at math.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
The bourgeois have nothing to do with an educated population that will not buy the crap they want to sell, and that will question their motives, and which will not blindingly execute the orders their bosses are giving them at work.
So the public school system has been gutted of any quality so they can turn an endless army of mindless consumer drones that will only serve to fatten the bourgeois' pockets with the toil of their labour.
The bourgeois, on the other hand, send their offspring to private school with a higher quality of education so they can pass-on their upper-status hereditarly.
The Republic of the United States of America is all but dead; the founding ideals of equal opportunity for everyone have but been shattered by the exlusion of most of the population from access to opportunity through education.
I wonder if the education spending numbers reflect spending on actual education, or on 'educational' extras like school sports programs, transportation, nutrition, etc. Not to argue the relative merit or necessity of these programs... but the fact is that they're there, and it's possible that it just costs more to educate a U.S. student than a Czech or a Korean because of all the overhead. Maybe the U.S. just doesn't get as much bang for its bucks. Coupled with a school culture that places more value on extrascholastic activities, this would explain why you can throw a ton of money into the system and produce generations of kids who hate (and suck at) math.
perl -e 'foreach(values %SIG){$_="IGNORE";}while(){}'
Johnny has 5 apples. Suzie has 3 apples. Bob gives one of Johnny's apples to Suzie. How do you think Johnny feels?
"...students in countries that emphasized theorems and rote learning tended not to do as well as those that emphasized the more practical aspects of mathematics."
Teachers are not really at fault. They're told to push a curriculum (finish chapters 2-10 by Christmas break), and speed through the formulas, instead of explaining HOW the formulas are used in real life. I always found it hard to understand why a particular formula was used to solve a polynomial when X=0, then I'd go to my physics class, and we'd learn nearly the same thing--but this time we'd know that solving the equation gave us a velocity at a given point. That's where I always perked up--when I could visualize and USE the formula in a practical way. I could explain this better through Family Guy:
Guy on Street #2: It's 3:00. Where the hell is Louie?
Guy on Street #1: Well, you tell me. Louie left his house at 2:15 and had to travel a distance 6.2 miles traveling at a rate of five miles a hour. When will Louie get here?
Guy On Street #2: Depends if he stops to see his ho.
Guy on Street #1: That's what we call a "variable".
Sometimes I doubt your commitment to Sparkle Motion.
It's possible that the problem is decentralized control.
If a school district were to decide to make its math classes harder, the grades in those classes would go down, but the students would probably be learning more, since students typically rise to the level of performance expected of them.
However, what happens when one school district raises standards, and the one next door doesn't? The school district that raised standards has lower GPAs, and their students compare poorly against neighboring districts, and those students miss out on scholarships (and perhaps don't get into the school of their choice).
I'm no fan of centralized control over education, but how can math standards be raised without students unfairly missing out on a college education?
Sometimes I doubt your committment to SparkleMotion!
Why Nerds are Unpopular" by Paul Graham.
cheap labor conservatives - they want to keep you hungry enough to be thankful for minimum wage.
Go ahead, mis-underestimate us at your own peril!
Why do I keep typing pythong?
Damn, dude - you should know by know that it's two plus two that equals four... no wonder we're behind in math, with this sort of disinformation wandering the internet...
Proud neuron in the Slashdot hivemind since 2002.
and ive always done math like that, in my head, as a short cut. she taught me that, as well as i picked it up from her, as a little kid. its not the easiest way initially, and maybe not everyone can handle it, but ive always split it apart like that. makes for remembering less when you have to do math in your head.
Just want to give a congrats for a good job by Canadian students, ranking 3rd in reading and tied for 5th in math.
The report also cited Canada as one of the countries having great equality across income and employment ranges. Which puts things in a bit of perspective after the moderately large amount of media/newspaper coverage we have had lately over the disparaties in our education system and the need to improve it due to the fact that recent immigrants are consistently performing below expectation and require more support services to help them adapt.
This is not a sig.
What he means is that in the US, everybody goes to school. Precisely my point. Thank you.
Have you read my blog lately?
Can someone find the test questions and post them? I haven't been able to locate them on the OECD PISA website.
You only need to see how votes are counted in certain states to comprehend why the US rates relatively poorly in math.
And why would I want one of these?
An education?
Comparing Apples to Oranges, to use a cliche.
Lodragan Draoidh
The more you explain it, the more I don't understand it. - Mark Twain
Seriously. English is one of the hardest, most bastardized languages in the world. Only Japanese is worse, and I have studied Japanese so I think the linguists are right in giving it first place.
Heck, I don't even think in English. I think in a simplified version of English, though. When I type, I make many spelling and grammar errors because I am constantly going back and editing what I wrote to make sure all of the inflections are right.
I think it's time we, the educated people, considered switching our "lingua franca" to something else a little more sane.
For example, why don't they compare 8th grade Minnesota students against Czech students I wonder?
Probably because they'd find out things that are politically incorrect.
Seastead this.
and I HATE PDF...
1. Finland
2. Korea
3. Canada
4. Hong Kong-China
5. Netherlands
6. Macao-China
7. Liechtenstein
8. Japan
9. Australia
10. Switzerland
11. Iceland
12. New Zealand
13. Denmark
14. Belgium
15. Czech Rep.
16. France
17. Ireland
18. Sweden
19. Austria
20. Slovak Rep.
21. Norway
22. Germany
23. Luxembourg
24. Poland
25. Spain
26. Hungary
27. Latvia
28. United States
29. Portugal
30. Russian Federation
31. Italy
32. Greece
33. Serbia
34. Uruguay
35. Turkey
36. Thailand
37. Mexico
38. Brazil
39. Tunisia
40. Indonesia
i don't see why that's such a big deal. that's how i was taught how to do that multiplication, and how i still do it today, only in a slighly different format of writing:
137
x23
_____
411
+2740
_____
3151
unless you are saying he should use a calculator instead...? or learn his multiplications tables up to 23? what's your superior method of multiplying two multi digit numbers?
HINT: I bet Czech schools don't spend millions of dollars (or preferred local currency) on state-of-the-art sports facilities and equipment.
But that is precisely what the number one country, Finland, did.
you keep cutting taxes, and something has to give.
Do you really think it owuld be the pork barrel projects that get cut? no, it will be 'services'.
espially eduation where there isn't anything to taxs thats specifically eduaction related.
People say "Gas tax shouldm only be for road repairs"
now what do you taxes that would only be for schools?
Personally, I would support a 25 cent gas tax, if 22 cents of ever quarter went to schools.
And stop the damn 'no ne gets left behind' policy. Its implementation is hurting childrens education.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Do you want to touch my "Math"?
We may not be so good at Math, but I bet we rank at least in the top 5 in English!
But you still came behind many OECD countries where the situation for school is the same as the US - everyone goes to school.
You might have a point with 1 or 2 of the countries doing better than you, but what about the other 26?
did you mispost perhaps?
Living in the Washington DC area, I know about the schools in Maryland, DC and Virginia. DC spends the most per student and has the worst schools and poorest performing students. VA spends the least of the three and has the best. MD spends in between and has in-between results. All (local) evidence suggests then that the way to improve is to cut spending. Alternatively, we could get parents and students serious about learning and teachers who promote learning instead of teaching. As if that will ever happen.
There is not nearly enough love in the world, but there is far too much trust.
The self-assessments made by the US and Korean kids shouldn't come as a surprise. According to this study people who aren't good at something think they are better than average, and those who are good at it think they are, well, only better than average.
In short, everyone thinks they are slightly better than the average person at everything, no matter what their skill level. Interesting stuff, but it sounds oversimplified, huh? Try this: Do you feel like you are a better automobile driver than the average person?
You are checking your backups, aren't you?
Yes, but did you get laid?
"Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!" - Glen Beck
How dow expect these people to be good at math? They can't even speak properly!
Guys, for the love of everything, can we please get some real facts without sounding like the sky is falling?
The czech republic spends 1/3 of what the US spends. Well the czech republic is 1/36th of the US in population. Can you imagine the infrastructure that we have to support?
And I have yet to see greatness emanating from Korea - who pays for their defense? We do. Who builds their defense? We do. Who invests into their economy? We do.
So the next time someone tells me their country's "education" is better than ours i would like to point them toward our GDP.
then the only thing left to be competitive with would be education. and cars.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
So it's quite obvious that you have been neither a secretary or construction worker. Both use math daily. It might not be algebra or calculus on the blackboard, but it's still math.
That's the PISA : program for internation student assessment, and they cover much more than just math. Reading is (IMHO) more important.
Here's the full report in PDF.
#include "coucou.h"
For my fellow Americans; scroll down to the bottom of the study. That's where the pretty pictures are.
(it's a joke. laugh.)
You are checking your backups, aren't you?
All the analysis of a standardized test can tell you is who taught the material best for the way the test was made. If a test is made to focus on theory, theoretical classrooms will fair better. Standardized tests only test a specifice method of learning. A test can be written such that any country on the list will be better... just suit the test for the way that country is taught. What I am trying to say is that you can never trust the analysis of a standardized test. It does not mean that the US students are stupider in math. It just means the test did not highilight the way they learned. The same is true for all of the countries on the list.
Why is it that the US fall behind almost every other county in almost all forms of academics? I guess that this just goes to show that this is one problem that will not be solved by throwing money at it.
With the "no child left benhind" act every second grade teacher needs to give multiple hour tests ONE-ON-ONE to every student in her class, many times during the year. During this "testing," no learning is being done. The other students are left to be babysat by the teacher's aid and what is the student being tested learning, NOTHING. What for? how does this help the children or society?
SINARS is not a recursive sig
When you find out how meaningless a figure like GDP is, be sure to let us know.
Half my family are teachers. From what I can see the money is very tight. They can't even aford paper. My sister like many teachers spends her own money for supplies. The problem isn't the amount spent per child it's the amount that reaches each child in the form of direct education. Most of the money like most government departments gets consumed in bloated administrative costs. You might be shocked to find what the proportion of highly paid administrators are to teachers. Remember the structure is very complex and there are many levels between the Congress and the teachers. I've worked at companies where there were three administrators and office people for every person actually working to produce product. The school system is much worse. Let's say the government wanted to add a 10,000 new teachers. Even if they were being paid $50,000 a year that would only be $500,000,000, a bargin. But that's not the way it works. When you add administrative costs I think you'd find it would cost several billion maybe much more. Other than a handful of new accountants to pay the teachers in truth just how much more support is needed. Yes there are more classrooms and supplies but with most schools they have the space just need enough teachers. The knee jerk reaction to an education problems seems to be more planning/administrators. Fire half the administrative staff and hire an equal number of teachers. You'll save money and put a lot of teachers in classrooms where they are needed. Maybe with the money saved they can actually buy paper and books.
interesting to me.
When I was taught that you can tell if a wall is straight with only a measuring tape.
3 foot out make mark
4 foot up. make mark.
mearsure the distance between the marks, should be 5 feet.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Since we're obviously not making a profit on schools, especially with scores like they got, we should start outsourcing students. Cheaper and better results.
rewriting history since 2109
"Is our children learning?", George W Bush.
'nuff said.
I have actually overheard parents, on multiple occasions, fret over their child doing "too well" in school and lamenting that their child is turning into a "brain." This is the mindset in this country. The USA has been mongrelizing itself for more than half a century, and it is not going to get any better. And for you PC-Nazi asshats, my use of mongrelizing has nothing to do with race and everything to do with mindsets. We have deep cultural problems in this country concerning work ethics, or ethics of any kind.
The other problem is that no one has an original thought in their heads anymore. I bet you real cash there will be multiple red state blue state comments on this thread despite the fact that there are no red states and blue states. Break it down by House districts, and the map is very amorphous. Even here on Slashdot, where you'd hope people are a little smarter, you see the same blinkered ideologies, intellectual prejudices and mythic hoohah that infects the general population. I used to enjoy discussing current events at work with other engineers and scientists, but all I get back these days is Party slogans, urban myth and monochromatic blithering.
And so, I root for the ELE asteroid.
--- Ban humanity.
After these kinds of results, questions are raised about the way these tests have been conducted, and wether there are better tests.
I've heard ROSE, The Relevance of Science Education fielded as a better alternative, and that Norway would do better if there was just fewer countries in the test.
But this time, Norwegians went down the ranking since the last PISA-test. If this an absolute decline, the debate about better tests is not as relevant: Norwegian children today do worse than they did a few years ago.
Some politicians call for more teachers. But Norway uses a lot of resources for education allready. When it comes to learning for each dollar/krone/pound we're among the worst.
Lack of basic skills in maths and language is also hampering higher education and the workplace. It results inn worse economic results.
One possible correlation could be that Norwegian classrooms are among the most noisy and least disciplined. Improving that situation could improve the results.
One of my associates suggests that the really good teachers should be given bonuses. But how will that go over with unions and people who want to keep people "equal" at all cost?
More links for Norwegians: Norske elever nedover i rangering
Irene KHAAAAAAN!
Non-Core Requirements for a Math Intensive Major 6-8 Credits of English. 12 Credits of Cross University Classes (Most are structured like English classes even the Science Based Ones). So that is 18-20 Credits of English Courses.
Now for an writing intensive Major they have those 12 Credit Coss University Classes. A CS101 Class Intro To Word, and Basic Algebra. So that is 6 Credits of stuff that most have learned in high school.
Now the fun part is when I point out the need for more math for higher education
The people Say "Well a lot of people are not good at math and it wouldn't be fair for there GPA to go down in these classes"
I Say "Well I am not good at writhing so does it mean I shouldn't need to take these writing courses."
They Respond "No Writing is an important skill."
I Say "Math is an important skill too."
They Say "Yes it is but a lot of people are not good at it."
and on and on.
I believe that I should have taken those English Classes they did help me out although it may not look like it did. Writing Majors would gain as well with Math Classes at least up to Calc and Advanced Statistics, a physics class, and VB Programming CS class.
With a strong math experience to there higher education the educated people will pass more respect to math to there children.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
'Mr. Schleicher said that students in countries that emphasized theorems and rote learning tended not to do as well as those that emphasized the more practical aspects of mathematics.'"
There's some serious false dichotomy here.
'Rote learning' in the sense it was once taught is not applicable to the modern era; though Feynman could compute logarithms in his head due to a very full mental lookup table, we cannot, and understandably so.
But 'theorems'? Theorems are simply pieces of mathematical knowledge. If you think they are useless frills, you have been badly taught.
Without knowing the basic rules which allow you to do computation, and the conditions under which the rules apply, 'practical mathematics' is nothing but a random set of staged problems.
You may know how to solve any of these problems, or the same problem with the numbers changed, but as soon as you encounter a new one, you're toast. This is not the way to reform mathematical education.
From their webpage:
It would appear that the US was the second to "deposit" our "instrument of ratification", right after Canada, eh.Ben Hocking
Need a professional organizer?
Take a look at the first place country, Finland. A socialist country. The president is a member of the social democrats; when she was elected she was a single mother. The Minster of Education, Tuula Haatainen, is also a socialist.
People say I'm crazy, I got diamonds on the soles of my shoes...
The purpose of any education system is to provide the opportunity to learn to those who _want_ to learn. I'd rather have an education system that puts out a few brilliant people a year than the one that's good "on average" but doesn't put out any geniuses.
When I was in high school (and this wasn't in the US), about 80% of the class didn't give a fuck about learning. They've completed their mandatory nine year courses and left the school. About a half of those who stayed really did care about their future and studied really hard for the last two years at least. This allowed them (including yours truly) to enter all kinds of schools in the country, and some of them (including yours truly) graduated with honors from them.
Did this education system succeed? I think it did. Would the average results look good? I think they would not.
Let's face it, you don't need math to flip hamburgers or to do plumbing work. Heck, many programmers in the company where I work are puzzled by the most trivial math formulae. Despite of this they do their jobs fairly well.
I'm not saying that good education is not essential for those who want to achieve things in life (even though "american dream" proves time after time, that you don't have to have any education to make a shitload of money). To the contrary, I feel that people who don't have good education miss out on a lot of things in life.
I know that people in USA have the freedom to choose their education. In different degrees, it's not like that in other countries, where people are submitted to standard contents in schools, and all children learn similar math. Children in USA have more oportunity to learn what they want and be what they are, instead of beeing pressured to follow meaningless standards (like we could believe korean children are, since they believe they are not good at math even when they actually are).
Note that this kind of test actually check for knowledge of standard math, and Americans are not good at any kind of standard. Check for the standard knowledge of classical music in USA kids agains that of Europe children. Yet, many great classical musicians leave Europe to live in USA. And why should people know math at 15? I'm 30 and only now I decided to get better understandment of math, and age has not been a problem. Of course, I'm using American books and magazines to learn, since they are the best available.
I'm Brazilian and live in Brazil, so I think this is not a biased opinion. There are so many important fair reasons to criticize USA, I don't like when people do that for unfair ones.
How do you expect children to learn advanced mathmatics when we haven't even finished beating "2+2=5" into thier heads? I mean sheesh, give the Ministry of Truth a chance!
People keep seeing that 2+2=5 avatar for the topic category!
A third of forty is 13 1/3.
--- Ban humanity.
What the fuck do you expect when you have a priest as prime minister?
People say I'm crazy, I got diamonds on the soles of my shoes...
If you are as lazy as me, here it is:
n
H ungaryi land
1. Finland
2. Korea
3. Canada
Hong Kong-China
Netherlands
Macao-China
Lichtenstei
Japan
Australia
Switzerland
Iceland
New Zealand
Denmark
Belgium
Czech Rep.
France
Ireland
Sweden
Austria
Slovak Rep.
Norway
Germany
Luxemburg
Poland
Spain
Latvia
United States
Portugal
Russian Fed.
Italy
Greece
Serbia
Uruguay
Turkey
Tha
Mexico
Brazil
Tunisia
Indonesia
Better double-check the facts to make sure they're not lying again.
Something tells me the parent might just be modded off-topic.
I could be wrong though.
(But I'm not.)
There is a guy named John Mighton who has worked wonders tutoring very weak math students. He has proved that almost all students can become very proficient at math. One of the important things is that they actually think they can do it and don't give up. His method takes the students at whatever level they are and builds them up from there. The results are astounding. /www.jumptutoring.org/content/2.about.html
His book is called "The Myth of Ability." That pretty much says it all. The basic premise is that we should be able to expect all students to excell at math and he proves it.
Basically, the way we teach math is disasterous because it allows students to get left behind. They then get farther and farther behind and we use the excuse that: "They just don't have the ability." Mighton proves that is complete bunk!
According to my sister (I don't know what her source is), that these comparisons are unfair. She said that countries like Germany and Japan only submit scores of those individuals who are deemed to be college bound. Any of the students that are marked for tech school or manual labor are not included.
Along that same note, my mom always complains about the "No Child Left Behind" act. Teachers are expected to meet certain scores on the standardized tests. Even though the classroom she works in is special ed, their scores are still factored as normal. Non-English speaking student scores are also compared heads up against English speaking student's scores.
+7 Informative
-2 Troll
= +3
vodka, straight up, thank you!
There's a problem with test methodology here.
One problem is how we count money. $1 in the US is not $1 in the Czech republic. You can get a very nice meal at a restaurant in the Czech republic for under $5 (US) (groceries/rent/etc are much cheaper as well). Trickle this down, and the Czech republic can afford to pay their teachers much less while maintaining a better standard of living than US teachers.
Another issue: it's mandatory for everyone in the US to go to school. Everyone. In other countries, it's voluntary or not strictly enforced. Because it's mandatory, not all parents really care about their kids performance. My mom read to me since I was born, and I learned math skills at home before I ever went to school. I don't think it's purely coincidental I managed a 650 in math on the SATs while going to public schools my entire life.
Lastly, immigrants. The majority come from poorer countries. The proble is that kids who never went to school in Haiti, come over to the US and take this test, aren't going to do so hot. In addition to not having an education, malnourishment is a problem in many poorer counties. Early malnourishment has been scientifically shown to have a stifling and sometimes permanent effect on intellectual capacity.
I like the use of empirical methodology to measure these things, but we have to study the data a bit more thoroughly before making conclusions (even radical things like spending more money on foreign aid to the world's poorest countries instead of more nuclear subs we're never going to use).
-- Political fascism requires a Fuhrer.
So this just means that if this survey was performed by americans, then the results could be way off.
Think about that one without making your head explode.
Even the academic superiority of Asians, Vietnamese and Chinese notably, living in the US couldn't help the US rank better. tsk tsk. I'm not surprised, most of my friends don't care for math. Don't get me wrong, there's probably a large enough fraction of US 15 year olds that are mathematically competent, but they don't overdo it and make math their life. Also, in the US kids don't have to work so hard to get a job because it's easier for them in a way, because there are no language barriers, they've learned the appropriate curriculum at the right US schools, etc. For people overseas who have to come over here to work, they must work EXTRA hard in school to learn the stuff they'll be using for the jobs we have or are competing for. There's another example of how kids take things for granted. US kids like us may not work extra hard because we have other things to do, and get by, but with other kids, they have to work hard and, in the process, do better than us to get the job or position we're vying for.
Debugging? Klingons do not debug. Bugs are good for building character in the user.
a. Our teens lead the world in their knowledge of entertainment celebrities.
b. We have the most nuclear weapons.
Woo-hoo!
And to improve the actual performance of Americans, it's not out of 40 but out of 41 countries. And in the news paper I read this morning, it said US ranked 24th not 28th, except I couldn't confirm with the OECD's site.
First I have a minor quible about mentioning theorems in the 'rote learning' section and suggestion rote learning is opposed to practical/hands on learning. I agree entierly that rote learning is a problem as is mere memorization of theorems. However, abstract thought, logical reasoning and the like are important teaching goals which can be achieved by requiring students to prove and apply theorems.
In any case I find it bizarre that people seem to consistantly underplay the effects of culture in learning. Not only in comparisons of countries but also in racial differences in education, studies show that even when black and white students attend the same school their is a significant academic acheivment gap. Clearly this is the result of some type of culture (we can argue about whether blacks are being sent messages they can't achieve academically or their is a culture which tells them academics is 'acting white').
When I talk with my friends from russia, and other countries which often outperform us in math the thing I find most striking is they claim their is much less, stigma to being a nerd. In a culture which mocks you for being good or even interested in mathematics and science why should we be surprised students do worse. When being an intellectual is considered a disadvantage in presidential politics the message being sent to our children is quite clear.
As a mathmatician and someone who teaches mathematics perhaps the biggest difference between students who succed and those who don't is interest. Those students who are genuienly curious and want to find out why things happen invariably do well while those who just want to be told a formula they can memorize eventually do poorly. Sure, some effect can be had by teaching logic and reasoning rather than rote memorization (although attempts to do this through 'new math' ran into brick walls because parents and teachers couldn't handle the problems themselves). However, real improvement requires students actually be interested and curious about what they are studying.
Is it any surprise that a culture which tells you that you are a 'nerd' and have something wrong with you when you demonstrate interest in math doesn't perform well in math?
If you liked this thought maybe you would find my blog nice too:
Its their fault. Yep. You heard it here first. Its the fault of the people not being educated.
My mother teaches at a horrible school in california where 90%+ of the student body is illegal immigrants. The parents are garbage, and thus the kids are garbage. They lie, cheat, steal, are violent, use drugs, are sexual, and have no interest in learning, IN THE FIRST GRADE. A parent helping their students with their school work is out of the question, as is speaking english, staying off drugs, or staying out of jail. Oh, and the classroom budget for supplies for an entire year is about 150$.
And yet when the teachers fail under these conditions, the federal government blames TEACHERS? How about blaming the federal government for not funding schools? How about blaming the government for not patrolling the border? How about blaming parents for using schools as a babysitting service?
Religion is a gateway psychosis. -- Dave Foley
Well, for one, we can ignore calls that "intelligent design" be taught in science in place of evolution. When you have states like Kanses, Georgia, etc, in this country saying they should be taught as equally likely theories in science classes... we are doomed.
Yeah, the rich kids have figured out better how to swot up for the SAT exams. Or at least have their parents pay for coaching to be able to answer the specific questions.
how many of these countries have mandatory education, and what is the dropout ratio? If only the kids that want to go or are smart enough to go to school attend, I can see how that would inflate their percentages.
.02% of COLLEGE grads play pro football, and most of those high school losers didn't even make it to college because of barely passing GPAs. I think they just had this overwhelming belief that sports would carry them throughout life and were wrong. My job may suck, but it's better than making window frames (which I know at least 4 of them do) and pays MUCH better. I can't imagine only getting paid $12/hour in my career with little or no hope of advancement. No wonder I see them going into the local bar for $2 2-for-1s on Bud light (despite their Cowboy-Neal-on-a-bad-day gut - no offense intended C.N. :)
not that America hasn't put a social stigma against math and science and overly fuels its sports and fashion industries. I got beat up by the jocks just like every other red-blooded nerd. At least I now don't work in a dead-end factory job swilling cheap beer every night and dreading going home to my wife and 12 kids like those losers (most of 'em seem to know nothing about birth control). I just read that something like
While Canadian students may have placed well compared to their southern neighbours, their results did slip from previous years as reported in the Globe & Mail.
Call my glass half empty ;-)
Canadians all go to school through at least age 16 as well, yet Canada ranked 3rd compared to 26 for United States (see page 89 of the pdf for details). Though your argument might stand for some countries, it certainly is not the full reason.
And what countries are these?
I don't think it's purely coincidental I managed a 650 in math on the SATs while going to public schools my entire life.
I went to public schools (in the US) and got a 750.
Lastly, immigrants.
My mother is an immigrant. But unlike the picture of immigrants you have in your head, she has a graduate degree in the "hard sciences."
People say I'm crazy, I got diamonds on the soles of my shoes...
The reason the U.S. does poorly in all acedemic measures is because it has a large underclass, which recieves very little education funding. If you look at a state like Iowa, their scores comparable to Europe or Japan.
Hate to break it to you Toby, but usually, when we try to do a direct comparison between to dissimilar things, such as countries, the results are given on a per capita basis. It makes for a more acurate measurment.
I think you learn that in Math class...
True, but I think you miss the larger point in relationship to this article - both schools you mentioned test for math skills. In fact, just about all students in the US are assessed for reading, writing, and math skills. In many other countries, it is customary to test only those students who perform well. Often this is because the least well performing students are pushed out of school and into trades before they reach 15.
In addition, many other countries do not educate large chunks of their population. Only those in select social classes get an education, and this obviously causes a disparity when comparing scores. It causes an even larger disparity when comparing per-pupil spending.
In the US, we are legally obliged to educate EVERYONE, no matter their ethnicity, sex OR disability. How many of the countries on this list place students with significant disabilities in their general education system and test them alongside the rest of the students?
The US does.
Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
It seems that there is no rank for India in the top half. Anybody care to explain what's wrong with the mathematics students here?
Half my family are teachers. From what I can see the money is very tight. They can't even aford paper.
I find that a good way to stretch that paper budget is to use innovative new spellings such as "aford".
A few apparent anomalies: The US kids rated 28th of 40 (so in the bottom third) while the Czech Republic, which spends in education 1/3 of what the US spends, ranked in the top 10.
Yeah, well the U.S. is #1 in terms of self-esteem, knowing how to put a condom on a banana and understanding that mentioning "Christmas" in a public place is an atrocious crime against our Constitution (Thomas Jefferson would be rolling in his grave).
That's far more useful than silly math.
Next you'll be telling me kids should study the Declaration of Independence even though it mentions God and is therefore technically a prayer. You should force all kids to recite Moslem prayers, especially when it's technically a conversion to Islam to do so, but Christianity is inimical to our country and way of life. After all, those horrible Ten Commmandments are trying to force us to worship someone. Who in this modern world could possibly do something so silly.
I'm so glad we are enlightened in the 21st century.
You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
I have a 5 year old who can do math quite a bit beyond his age. Part of it is that he is (IMHO) gifted and loves numbers. The other part is that I'm teaching him that equations are statements about something, just like sentences are. Numbers mean things. When you want to add 14 and 16, ask yourself what those numbers are--it's 2 10s, a 4 and a 6. A 4 and a 6 are 10, so you have 3 10s--30!
Once they understand math then memorization is just a convenience thing and they can find practical uses by themselves.
Even the "conservatives" are more to the left than UK's Labour or the US Democrats.
And he is GREAT at math. He knows that 1 cry + 1 poop = 1 diaper change and 2 boobies = 1 lunch
Construction workers do not need geometry, calculus or algebra?
I certainly hope that the ones who built you house were the exception to the rule then, for your sake.
It's up to the parents.
Only the parents can change the outcome.
It is the parent's choice whether to take an active role in their children's education or to abandon them to someone paid by the state to perform that service.
Cultures where the parents expect high results from their kids is the most important factor. Dirt poor immigrants like China, Vietnam, eastern European Jews had very smart kids because they parents expected it and took interest. Other countries like Cambodia nd Mexico have low performing kids because they do not value it.
They need loving parents more then any love a school could give.
Hmm.. So the Czech Republic spends a lot less but is that because their countries school-attending population is smaller say than to the US? I would like to see the percentages. And as for Korean schools, yes, I can say through knowing and working with immigrant Koreans that their school system is a *LOT* more strict when it comes to education. But a system similar to the Korean system of education would not fly here in the US (a.k.a long school days and attending school on Saturdays) as our cultures are different.
A reformation of our education system is a must, but the question is how and at what costs?
It's amazing. I go to the register, I see Study: PCs make kids dumber, skim through it and see that they believe "the more pcs a person has at home, the worse they are at math" (paraphrased). And then I come to slashdot, and what d'ya know? U.S. kids are behind in math. I blame it all on calc.exe.
For context, click Parent.
A sample size of one school out of many, and for everyone, everywhere, it is their fault?
I have no doubt that you are mostly seeing what you claim above, but that doenst mean that that obtains elsewhere.
I do agree with your last paragraph.
emt 377 emt 4
Why is this surprising? As demonstrated last month, at least 50M Americans think Bush is reducing the size of the government, rather than doubling it. One of his most successful programs is driving foreign scholars from our schools, so expect the skills ratings here to continue to decrease. Except when mandated as "USA #1" by Congress.
--
make install -not war
Or if the school is smaller, then a BEST Robotics team. http://www.bestinc.org/MVC/
:)
Our Team was 4th place in the Southwest region this year behind a Homeschool team 1 team from the same hub as the homeschool team (allied) and another team that won with luck.
I'm not all too concerned with the practicality of the math that I learn though... Just learning things that are challenging and trying to beat everyone else is fun
Which is to say (wildly over-simplifying) that as well as being better at math, the Koreans are more self-deprecating than the US kids.
either the wall is both straight AND perpendicular, or the wall is neither straight NOR perpendicular. Of course, the latter is less likely, and other fun tests can be done to test for planarity independently of perpendicularity.
Ben Hocking
Need a professional organizer?
Math, hmmph! Math, my dear boy, is nothing more than the lesbian sister of biology.
Sony ha
I find it interesting that practical applied math is a better teaching tool than abstract math. This makes sense and fits with my experiences as a math tutor. A real tangible example is far more easy to understand and absorb than an abstract approach. For example: (a x b) = (b x a) is really easy to demonstrate with a dozen egg-box. 6x2 is obviously the same as 2x6.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
I am quite disappointed that India is not included in the study (a popular country for Slashdot crowd if not anything else!) Well, my ignorning India they excluded one sixth of population!
"The US kids rated 28th of 40 (so in the bottom third)"
28 is in the bottom third of 40? whoa.
... Or something equally as useful as this story.
...
So the USA suck at math currently - newsworthy ? - er, no
A slashdotting - you get the stick first and then the carrot !
Well, at least our best students still dominate in terms of math skills. In otherwords, if you compare our top 1% with the top 1% of other countries, we score very highly.
I would consider this statistic to be more important since, generally speaking, these are the people who are going to enter critical math-related positions (in engineering, economics, etc). Nevertheless, I certainly don't mean to say that the math skills of the hoi polloi are non-important (just subordinate). "Innumeracy" affects many aspects of modern life and critical thinking.
If you think 15 year olds are bad at math, try testing adults. I took Calculus in college, but since I don't use it, I lost most of that knowledge.
Besides enrolling in evening college courses, what other methods can I do to regain/practice my higher math skills?
As a programmer I read trade journals to keep in step with my colleages. I do crossword puzzles to improve my vocabulary. Is there an equivelent for mathematicians? Can anyone recommend any books, software, magazines, etc. that can be used to hone ones math skills?
I had a friend who teaches high school. I went to see him after class. An irate mother was there complaining that my friend gave her son a bad grade in English. My friend was telling the mom that the kid wasn't doing any of his work.
I'm not making this up, the mother actually said the following: "Why does he need to learn English anyway?!"
If parents in the US don't want their kids learning something as useful as their native language, I have a feeling that learning math isn't much of a priority either.
If someone says he and his monkey have nothing to hide, they almost certainly do.
Afterall, their students appear to be performing better than those in the USA.
Given the simple formula offered by the education establishment, student performance = money spent * k, its obvious we're spending much less than Poland or Latvia.
That, I believe, should be the motto of education. However, peer pressure and other factors dissolves this time and again and what is supposed to be fun becomes a drudgery for the student...
Personally, I agree with Paul Graham's opinion when he said that schools (in particular, High School) exist as holding pens to keep kids from bothering adults during the day.
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oops...our team is in the Texas region
Canadian's also do not test like in the US.
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
But how is this supposed to be news?
Once you understand how to balance a checkbook, 90+ % of everyone has no need for anything higher in math.
Vote Quimby!
Because of such programs, teachers have left for more afluent schools or they have left specialized programs. In the example of CSAP, it is hard for schools to find special ed teachers. Wonder why? Think those kids score high on CSAP tests? With so few spec ed teachers, spec ed students have been integrated into the regular classes at the learning expense of the other children. It's not that I'm saying that spec ed students shouldn't get a chance, but at least give their teachers a more level playing field so that they [the teachers] can do what they really want...teach.
And it is stupid to just have students memorize answers (espcially for fundamentals that other subjects build upon)...it's not the right way to teach and that is what the teachers complain about...they aren't being allowed to teach and it makes school boring for both the student(s) and the teacher(s). Please elaborate on how those teachers are wrong...or so you work for a school administration in such a program?
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a fat white guy who is threatened by change."
What the heck does that mean?
I have this article bookmarked for easy access when people say stupid things. Fortunately I myself have avoided the American school system (grown up overseas... yay) except for one year, but from that one year (freshman year of high school) I have to agree with it all the way.
John Taylor Gatto, The Six-Lesson Schoolteacher
Be a PATRIOT--because the only thing we have to fear is the lack thereof.
Also consider that if 2/3rds of Koreans think they aren't good at math, and only 1/3rd of Americans think this, and Koreans are in the top three, that means that the US should be half as good, or ranked number six. This DOESN'T MATCH the 28th ranking!!!!! This is highschool math, people! Check your numbers!
An interesting observation
All straight things must come to a bend
I agree with you about self-esteem being potentially the most important factor, but then why does the US system fair comparatively poorly to those systems which don't coddle the kids as much?
Perhaps kids are really smart enough to work out that they are being coddled (omg, they can think!). Thus coddling them _reduces_ their self-esteem... creating a vicious circle of hand-holding and feeling useless, all with natural human laziness mixed in. The end result is a very negative mind space.
In general, you have to push people (including myself) to get them to find any sort of excellence within themselves. You have to create a competitive atmosphere to create competitive results.
Once they see the spark of their own ability... well I'm willing bet self-esteem in those Czech schools isn't the problem it is in the US.
Just another irony of not studying the close relationship between action (attempting to life self-esteem) and reaction (kids feeling that they can drift through school).
Like all pain, suffering is a signal that something isn't right
the american education system sucks.
seriously, education in this country is prohibativly expensive and it still sucks, despite more than adequate funding (im not saying that the funds have been put to good use, UVM's 70 million USD landscaping project was not the best use of money, especially when it reaches temps lower than -20F and they plant sod and trees and plants that will not survive these temps --then they cut the sports and arts programs, and shut down a few student buildings because it will not fit in the budget)
plenty of foreign students that attend US universities do it for the "American Pedigree" (it is quite a status symbol), and much of the time they already have the knowledge being "taught" in the class - they have already studied physics 1, 2, and 3 --years before, calc 1, 2, 3 --in gradeschool.
America is content to breed idiots.
I am an american, and i think my country is good on (theoretical) paper, scary on real paper (USAPA), and sucks the rest of the time (it is really gorgeous in some places, too bad the television is shiny too).
Why is math performance as a function of race such a hot topic but 100 yard sprint or marathon performance is not? There clear differences in physical performance per race would it not be expected to find differences in othe areas. you want links go find the published SAT scores ordered by race. It is getting harder and harder to explain these differences. I think at sometime these difference will have to be address. I know many will label this as racist but I don't. If I were to say that we should value someone within our society based on their SAT score that is racist or immoral because there are many other attributes not measured by achievement tests.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
As long as my kids know that the Grand Canyon came from the Holy Flood that once cleansed the earth of sin (and God willing He will do so again) then my children have learned all they need to know. As if math ever got anyone into heaven.
Sincerely,
A Concerned Parent
Parenting and Funding are to blame. Good students generally have good parents. Parents that encourage the child to do well. Funding is another problem. Why should a kid in Alabama not get similar funding to a kid in a wealthy neighbor hood in a wealthy state. We are all Americans. It's in our best interest to have all Americans well educated.
I grew up in Central Florida in the 80's and 90's in a county notorious for its "snow birds". Snow birds are basically retiree's from the north. The snow birds didn't want to pay local taxes to fund the schools. The end result was that our schools were poorly funded. Extra curricular programs were limited. The AC wouldn't work sometimes. It's hard to get a kid motivated when they can plainly see that no one wants to invest in their education. The funding is a joke and the kids know it.
I believe you mean "eloquent." {waits for the -1 Pedantic mod}
That said, I agree that the sample set for historical documents does tend to be very skewed. It's kind of like the commentary on classical music made in "Stranger in a Strange Land" (can't find the actual quote currently, so I'll approximate) stating that the main benefit of classical music is that they've had a few hundred years to weed out the crap.
This sig has absolutely no significance and serves only to take up screen space and waste the time of the reader.
Not that they were born dumb. They were made dumb by the system. I grew up in an Eastern European country. I thank god (and communists :O) every day for providing me with such a great education. Sure, I was poor, and I didn't have a computer, but while the American kids were playing stupid video games, I was either reading a book, or outside playing soccer/basketball with my friends. That was our fun. So, I turned out not to be fat or stupid. I was amazed when I started going to college in the US, how easy you had it guys (no oral part to the exams, cheat sheets allowed, and all that). 90% of your senior university students wouldn't make it past the freshman year in most of the rest of the world. The "I-don't-need-to-learn-this-since-it's-not-helping -me-make-money" mentality is what kills you guys. Same applies to "Oh, I can't make a school team, and I have no chance to be a pro, so why should I play sports".
You don't require enough of your kids in school, and even the little that's required, you don't enforce. Your parental skills are zilch. It's not the teacher's fault that your kid doesn't know crap, it's yours as a parent. If a teacher fails half the class, don't blame the teacher as long as he/she stated the requirements for passing the class clearly at the beginning. And do not curve when you grade. Either you pass or not. Don't do that "Everybody in the class is dumb, so I won't fail them all, I'll geave the least dumb one an A, and curve everyone else." Everyone below 60% (or whatever) fails. Period. Even if it means failing everyone.
Kick your kid in the butt, throw out that Nintendo, chat rooms, demented TV shows, or better yet, sit down with him/her and teach them something. Make sure your kids study for at least 3-4 hours a day (plus or minus depending on how smart they are) and you'll see the results. What? They don't want to? Well, that's where you come in as a parent to make sure you make them. It's either that or let your kids be educated not by books, but by Hollywood and the rest.
The society's (parents' and schools') obligation is to make sure everyone comes out of high school well-educated (even if it means repeating a coupls of years). As for the higher education, well guys, don't dumb it down so everyone gets a chance. What's up with this everybody goes to college, nobody fails crap. Pretty much if you stick around and keep paying, you'll get some kind of a degree. Not everyone is smart enough for college.
These are OECD countries not the 3rd world.
In Canada, we educate everyone and ranked 7th. Everybody here is pretty bummed about that. If we scored like the U.S., heads would roll.
People think I'm weird that I'd rather spend a small fortune sending my [future] kids to private school. I went to public school, and I think it was the biggest waste of my parent's tax dollars. I'll just have to eat the tax and spend money on a *real* education.
Another advantage of private schools is you can choose what region you live in. Then you don't have to pay the premium on realestate for being in a "good" district. (Good being a relative term here).
I suppose if you actually want to have say in what technique(s) are used to educate your child, and have a system where regular reviews of both educators and students performance happen, then you will have to be fairly wealthy and drop some real money down on a real education.
It's little surprise that government ran schools are ineffecient and provide poor service. When one examines other services provided by the government, it all makes sense. The goverment is just very bad at maintaining what basically amounts to a business.
FYI- I would not recommend relying on the government for your education, healthcare, welfare, etc. They can really let you down when you need it the most.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
What?
No way, after looking at the figures, by my calculations the U.S. tops the table.
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Of what good a survey if you leave 1/5th of the population. I was really interested to see how India performed
I go to school with a woman from Canada who is in my education program at the university I go to. in canada there is almost no standardized testing done to gauge the performance of the students and they kick the states' butt in quality of education.
for some reason we in the states feel the need to track out children's performance through standardized testing. it is odd really.
and the way they apply the tests is odd as well. it would make more sense to have multiple tests through out the year that took the place of other kids of tests in a subject area.
then only the kids in a math class would be tested on a certain type of math and only kids in an english class would get tested on their abilities for that class etc.
rather than a huge all encompassing test, break the tests out into subject areas and have the teacher's give them.
but anyway.... you understand what I mean now I beleive.
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
I have had priviledge to follow closely the math teaching in Finland for last 15 years in different perspectives. I feel that the situation has become worse day by day so its almost a shock to see Finland still hanging number one in this test (like it was earlier). Instead of going to public high school I went to IB school (sort of international school, and financially public like so many stuff in here Finland) and had far more better math teaching than the most in the Finland, for a while had even change to see the Russian system (though rather special case) and I thought that was the best.
... I don't see anything like this happening - at least here in Finland (even tough our GDP, growth and what ever is very much dependent on this stuff).
... after manufacturing and most of service interfaces is automated) will be done by few percents of population and the true innovations will be (like it always has been) created by very few (lets say several thousands) individuals. ... In finnish system where the average intelligence and skills are high the sharp leading talents are still forced to go along with the mass. That will be a problem for us in future. US problem will be the fact that you won't have unemployed consumer slaves, cause your system doesn't redistribute money that efficiently :)...
This test doesn't test can those 15 old become math talents or even proper CS, math or physics students. This is about very basic shit. In Finland the basic level is OK for mostly our stable socio-economic situation and good general wellfare.
I have had few changes to check out also US system and my impression is that your system is very good for teaching presentational skills and your economy as such drives people to become more business oriented - which in many meters must be considered as virtue. I think that for teaching theory your systems sucks big time (I had mostly US books in high school and they are twice as big as ours for example, but they lack still many important stuff - and there is way too much BS).
The question in my opinion is: what should people know about maths. Some pointed out already that math is passee - which I agree (after studying theorethical physics as major only to find that the new discoveries are philosophically rather meaningless and social impacts way too far fetched). In computer science you need advanced maths only if you want to optimize or do 3D (of course there are some special cases). In information economy the focus in education should be sifted to more systemic sciences and cross science (sort of multidisciplinary) stuff
My bet is that in future we will have slave-consumers, whose only purpose is to give some additional scale and rotation to economy (while those who are really doing something don't have time to consume). The bulk of productive work (R&D, marketing
Fuck I don't know anymore what my point is.
All nations suck. Geographical nations will eventually die - what's the point?? Let's go to moon and create a new nation on all new standards - there is too much burden and sticky old stuff around..
The United States, at least since WW2, has never produced enough engineers and scientists to meet its own demand; the best and brightest have traditionally gone on to business or law school. (This is very evident in the immigratation patterns over the past 60 or so years. The US has been tremendously agressive in importing scientists, engineers, medical doctors and other technically skilled persons.) In the mean time, developing countries such as India and South Korea have been investing heavily in the technical fields (out of which IIT was born). Thats why Stanford, Berkeley, MIT, and other top research universities have disproportioniate numbers of 1st and 2nd generation immigrants. For example I work at an Accelerator Physics Laboratory; among the dozen or so PhD's in my divison, 8 of them are immigrants from less fortunate countries.
I'm 18 and graduating from a New Jersey public school this year in an upper-middle class area. I'm at the top of class, taking all the AP courses I can and doing very well in them. My firsthand experiences have been quite different from what everyone except a select few have been describing.
:P
There are 20 people in my Calculus AP BC class, the most difficult offered at the school. There are 60 people in in Calculus AP AB, the class one step down from that. The classes are NOT fun. They entail a lot of difficult but not usually tedious work. It is taught with a blackboard and some chalk in a lecture/math lab format. Every student has a calculator, but rarely uses it because the symbolic nature of the work makes them nearly useless.
There are no "cool" people that aren't in these classes. The same people that you go to a calculus study group with are found at all the popular concerts and parties. It is usually the potheads and idiots that are looked down upon. I guess they have fun at whatever they do, but it's like they are the disconnected ones.
It's not like we all come diciplinarian homes either. When I get bad grades my parents usually say "That's too bad, hope you do better next time". I have a number of Chinese/Inidan/Korean friends with very strict parents that do excel in many areas, but no more so than other people like me have, not to mention I'm Polish.
So, in conclusion, I have no idea where the blame lies for underperforming students. I have no idea why other students do so well. The entire thing makes no sense to me. The one thing I can tell you for sure is that anyone that gives you a clear answer to any of these questions is either a liar, pushing an adgenda, or a complete genious (or any combination of the three).
You gotta find first gear in your giant robot car
As an outsider it seems to me that people in the US do not value learning. Heroes in films do not win through cleverness, they win through strength. At schools it seems, the clever kids are not admired. I notice that in technology there is a US attitude that a "Simple and Strong" solution is better than a "Clever" one. The baddies in films are always well-spoken and clever, (and usually British to boot!) The hero is working class, but tough... etc....
***You learn something Every day. And then you die.***
>As evidenced by the Czech republic.
They do pretty good, considering they haven't had a minute of peace, ever.
It's possible that many of the world's problems are due to the most capable in any given society leaving for the US, making it even harder to improve the situation in their home country, making even more people who are capable want to flee - it's a vicious cycle. The only solution to this would be to export America (IE - Imperialism) but I doubt the population here has the stomach for that.
I went to a very small special ed school where I was doing pre-algebra in 3rd grade. I wasn't again challenged in math until 7th grade, and that was because I was in an advanced track. I think that we could start teaching kids algebra in 5th grade, and by freshman year of highschool have them performing pre-calc or calculus.
"brxref
Girls = Time * Money
Girls = (Money)^2
Girls = ( square root (Evil) )^2
Girls = Evil
Funny as it seems, my ex fit this proof perfectly.
Eternity: will that be smoking, or non-smoking? I Corinthians 6:9-10
We've been increasing the amount of money spent on the brats kids and the situation keeps getting worse; this means that we must head in the opposite direction and spend less money.
I'm glad to see Dubya is on the job and busy cutting funding. Surely the US' ranking will skyrocket soon.
Oddly enough, I find one of the most common missing abilities in American adults is the ability to round numbers. I mean certainly, ask them to round 8 and you'll get 10 [probably once you remind them what the term means], but the problem comes that calculators don't exist everywhere. The simple ability to round numbers to nice even estimates makes doing simple math without paper or calculator feasible. I've seen far far too often when people go to the store and are suprised by how much things cost, or at the end of the month how they're suddenly down a lot more than the expected.
I wonder how much of Americans' rampant credit problems are caused by their simple inability to estimate and total the sum cost of things...
At the risk of being modded into oblivion:
I got's ta axe all y'all, who cares, yo? At least the U.S.'s English n' speeling skills be gooder than all them otha wack countries, ya feel me, dog?
---As my daddy used to tell me: "You gotta be smart before you can be a smartass."
So, US kids lack not only maths, but also classics literature such as that by George Orwell.
The engineers from outside the US were able to do the job. Only the top notch products of the US school system could cope.
The top-notch products of the US school system hired you to do the work while they rob the company. Sucker.
paintball
Personally, I think some of the math books make the simple things too hard. I was out of high school for several years when one day it hit me what pi was. I realized that if you took the diameter of a circle and wrapped it around the circle, it would go pi times. I remember going over pi several times in math classes, but I don't every remember being taught that.
Of course, it could just be that I have a bad memory.
Coder's Stone: The programming language quick ref for iPad
LRC, the best-read libertarian site on the web
Then again, they probably aren't running the entire curriculum towards the tests (in other words "teach to the test"). That's all to common these days. The local school districts here in Texas have mandated curriculums that are taught district-wide, and are solely geared to passing the standardized tests. Individual teachers don't have any input to the curriculum, nor are they allowed to change it (lest they risk termination).
Thanks "No Child Left Behind"!
Teach the answers to the test and you'll do well on the test and have absolutely no idea about anything else (or how to apply any of that knowledge).
We're sorry, the phone number you have reached is imaginary. Please rotate your phone 90 degrees and try your call again
A tap broke in the flat of a professor of maths. He called a plumber. The plumber arrived, in 15 replaced a pipe and charged the professor 1/4 his monthly salary.
"My god! So much? But it didn't look difficult at all! You must earn quite a bit more than I do!"
"Sure, just become a plumber and you'll earn as much as me. No, seriously, there is demand, and the job isn't really hard..."
So the professor became a plumber. He started repairing leaking taps etc, earning a lot of money for very little work. And it lasted until one day when the union decided all the plumbers need to know at least basics of maths, so there will be a training...
So, the training starts, the maths is extremely simple, just like for kids. And then the teacher calls our professor to the blackboard and asks him to write the formula for the field of circle.
And professor, in terror realizes, he forgot.
"Okay, no panic. I'm a math professor, I don't remember the formula but I can derive it."
So he starts calculating the formula, splitting the circle into infinitely many pieces, filling whole blackboard with calculations, integrals, derivatives... finally comes up with minus pi r squared.
"No, that's wrong. Field can't be negative. There must be a mistake somewhere." So he checks his calculations once, twice, can't find the error. And whisper arises in the classroom filled with a crowd of plumbers. Finally he starts recognising the words in the whisper, and everyone in the room whispers "Exchange limits of the integral! Exchange limits of the integral!"
45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
The best answer to: 2 + 2 = ?
"What would you like it to be?"
Having good math skills just makes it harder to 'cook the books'.
Maybe that's how the USA claims to be more productive?
"Stop messing around with that math stuff an just get the job done..."
The "no child left behind" program is idiotic. I have several nieces and nephews in public schools. Their teachers have set curriculums they must cover each year. If they don't cover everything and their kids do poorly in testing, they get in trouble. So they try to cover everything, teaching just enough of each topic to hopefully get everyone to answer the questions that will be on standardized testing. Hence all the rote learning as mentioned in the article.
And of course there is a price to pay for all this too. There is a significant tax burden to everyone to pay for schools. I am lucky enough to make enough money so that I can send my children to a private school and pay this tax burden. Many parents are not so lucky and have to send their children to public schools. And there's your socioeconomic stratification for you.
However, it's the attitude that "there's no reason why we should be lagging behind ANYONE" that is the root of these problems. There are actually a lot of good reasons for students to lag behind. If you have a child whose parents don't care about education, the child will not do well in school. There's nothing the government can do about this. It is up to parents to educate their children, not the government. That means there will be lots of children who don't go to school, but so what? If you round those kids up and force them to school, they won't do well anyways.
Testing is fine, but it should be up to parents to react to the results. If their child is doing poorly, they have options. Chances are there are things that they can do, but if they really think it's the school's fault, they should change schools. If the school is not publically financed, then it will do its best to make sure this does not happen so that it can continue to operate. However, if the parent has no reason to take personal responsibility for their children's education and, just as bad, has no way of taking action about it, then they will just blame the school and will have to rely on the government to do something about it. That is the current situation for the majority of parents/children in this country, and you can see where it's landed us -- in the bottom third.
Also, in the US, education is mostly a state run thing. I wonder if would be more beneficial to rank the US states individually along side of countries that organize their education at the national level.
I am not sure a country with the population the size of the US would benefit from an additional layer of government over the states to manage the education system. Perhaps a national group to determine minimum skill level criteria for math and language skills would help. Perhaps allowing State or even more local systems to take control and enact changes to meet those levels would be more productive?
Disclaimer - I am Canadian not American.
Math was always the worst subject for me, I passed it, but not well. The reason I never did very well at it is that at the schools I went to it was all rote learning, and it drove me insane. Therefore, I had no grounding when it came to calculus... Which also turned out to be rote learning in the classes I took. I failed college-level calculus... Mostly because I did not care.
Now, more recently I have read Richard Feynman's "Surely You are Joking Mr. Feynman" And I find it fascinating, I am also reading his book: "What do you care what other people think?"
Now, after Feynman's writing, I want to learn calculus, because I find physics so interesting, but I can't grasp the higher math without calculus. I know why it is important, but I can't find any resources that explain it well.
So, those of you who are good at calc out there, what do you reccomend for learning? Almost all the books I have looked at on calc are really boring - with "This is an integral" You do this.... With absolutely no explanation as to the WHY. That is, I know why it is needed, but I want to know why do do "this" to an equation when you see "that" sort of stuff. The book can be wordy - in fact I would prefer one that showed the history of mathematics, and how these things were found out (like how Newton was on of the co-inventors of mathematics, and why he invented calculus, I have an idea, but no good grasp of the subject.)
So, slashbot math geeks, I would appreciate your input.
Try to hack my 31337 firewall!
Wow. I read the comments here on /. and a hefty sample are saying math is not important. Geez I didn't expect that here.
The prevailing attitude seems to be that the US will just keep importing smart people from elsewhere because that is the way it has been since WW2.
I would say that is a pretty sad attitude. And is not prepared for the changes that are occurring today. Heck every gadget you own is likely built outside the USA. The rest of the world is modernizing at a much faster pace. They will need their own engineers. Not to mention the borders aren't quite as pourous they once were. Maybe a lot of folks just feel generally less welcome.
I look at North American culture today and see dominant forces being: Celebrity, Stupidity and Religion.
How long will a culture last when the majority want to be a celebrity (parasite movie star, pro athlete),or moron (homer simpson) or devote their life to God.
You have the "Intelligent Design" folks trying to undermine science in the schools.
Maybe the answer to the question, why can't Jonny Add? is because the Bible says 1+1 = 3.
"Horrible horrible teachers."
What do you expect for $12,000 a year?
Millions of dollars go into "education", but never goes directly into teacher salaries. My town just approved close to 60 million in education bonds, which, had anyone bothered to read, went to construction companies, ZERO to teachers and books.
Yep, now I understand. Thanks for the info. Its been a while since I went through the system here, but that is quite different from anything I've heard of (hence my confusion.)
This is mostly a cultural issue, not an education system issue. As evidenced by data wherein poor countries outperform the US despite our larger budgets.
Is it also possible in these 'poor' countries that less families are dual income? That the society is not driven to consume stuff. Or the child spends more time spent with parents? And this is what is actually having an effect greater than dollars spent on the education system?
Without getting into percentages, some teachers don't want to teach, some students don't want to learn.
Many schools place students in different tracks per their performance, so Johnny Badass ends in Shop 3 and Dexter in CHM 251 at the nearest college.
Some classes, say French 3 or Honors British lit, may well be taught by a slight 26yo recent graduate, while others, say Remedial English 00 or General Math for Morons, should be taught by Sgt. Kickbutt, USMC, Ret, 45yo, or similar.
Everybody would achieve their potential, and not mess up someone else's education.
BTW, the Romans believed that knowledge was strenghtened with blood, and teachers were free to whip students at will.
Of course, there are plenty of Slashdotters ready to point out the few linguistic flaws of the non-native English speaker, while missing or ignoring his point entirely.
When you can make your point in linguistically and gramatically perfect Portugese to rebut the original poster, great. Until then kindly quit contributing to the static.
Actually, being a current college student. I can tell you all that calculus is really changing around, they now have different terms for it, Math Applications, and Calculus for Business. Where it takes calculus and says, "hey we will only give you the dose you need, and expand on it till the semester is over". This has proven to be more effective than oldschool calculus. And as a student in field of IT, not many applications are generally needed. But, It does help alot with those peskey graphs and finance in your daily lives.
And steal our milk money, too.
//Information does not want to be free; it wants to breed.
Thank you for your comment absurdist.
Now, for those who criticized, I admit! I wrongly translated "bem-formado" in Portuguese to "well-formed". I'm sorry, please follow through. It happens when you're informally speaking a language other than your native one. Assuming you do speak other languages.
First Post!
In case any pedants respond to this post, of course it should be Laguerre polynomials, not Bessel functions, for the radial component of the hydrogenic wavefunctions.
make world, not war
Apparently the contributer is a product of the US math system. Since when is 28 out of 40 in the bottom third.
When you have states like Kanses, Georgia, etc, in this country saying they should be taught as equally likely theories in science classes... we are doomed.
Have you seen this yet? ;-) It's a new creationist museum of "learning", clearly aimed at kids. Get 'em young has always been the aim of any religion.
Last year, he took a Quantum Mechanics class. At the course's beginning, the prof said the pace would be harsh but he figured most students would cope. Mid-terms showed otherwise. My son earned a 75% on the mid-term. He was depressed until he found out the class average was in the 40's. That made him feel better until he found out that his house mates aced the test. His house mates are from Singapore and Taiwan.
When he asked them how they had managed to ace the mid term, they all shrugged their shoulders and said they'd seen the material in high school. They had seen the material in high school for multiple reasons. The typical Taiwanese goes to school 220 days out of a year instead of 180 here in California. The school days are longer, typically 8-5 instead of 8:30 to 2:30 here. The elementary teachers have strong math skills as opposed to our elemetary teachers. Parents in Asia expect more from their children than American parents do and the end results are Asian children have been trouncing American children academically for the past 20 years.
In case you're wondering about the source of all the facts cited above, here are the citations.
The story isn't completely grim however. The United States is nothing if not adaptable. The alternative school movement in the U.S. has made an opening for schools like this one, this one and KIPP schools to function. As the existence and efficacy of these kinds of options becomes more commonly recognized, American education will shift.
It's a good thing we have all those nukes to keep us number one.
-------- In Soviet Russia, "Soviet Russia" sigs hate Slashdot.
In America, EVERY kid is tested. We have UNIVERSAL, public education. In the Czech Republic, you only get to be educated at age 15 and beyond if you're of a wealthy family and/or a child genius.
The American education system is not as bad as people are making it out to be... We just have the slackers (that every country has, mind you) being tested as well.
Teacher: "Hey fill this test out . it is for a study and it won't affect your grades" Kids: *drawing penises on the papers* yes very nice.
-- TRUST ME! I KNOW WHAT I'M DOING!
The Economist has a good article on how the legal system is running the schools amok: "Who needs a bad teacher when you can get a worse judge?"
I see the problems being the following:
-- I'm embarassed to look like Hemos.
I don't know how big this is in the US, but German media is currently going completely bonkers because we only made place 12. ;)
Talk about hurt pride.
In the US, we are legally obliged to educate EVERYONE, no matter their ethnicity, sex OR disability.
There is no such obligation. Alabama just shot down a move to get rid of wording in their constitution regarding segregation and a guaranteed education for all.
This was partly due to racism and mostly due to not wanting additional taxes for schools.
I don't see the correlation between a lack of intelligence and belief in God. I think they can exist independent of each other in the universe.
Perhaps you have confused the ID movement with the Creationist movement. The ID movement makes no reference to God, Allah, Vishnu, Buddha, Hermes, Zeus, or other religious deity as the source of life. Additionally, members of the ID movement are published, respected, and contributing members of the scientific community. So I fail to see how they are undermining science.
Perhaps the real answer why Johnny can't add, is because he doesn't put the requisite effort in his studies to understand the mathematics that supports addition. Maybe if Johnny's parents were able to take the time necessary to see to his education he could better understand mathematics, or any other subject for that matter. It's possible that the quality of teachers that are available today don't match with the quality of teachers we once had. I don't see many young students scrambling to become a teacher. Perhaps Johnny can't add due to some combination of any of these reasons. I don't think the reason Johnny can't add is because he attends church.
To know is to have knowledge....to understand is to be enlightened.
We'll outsource all of our math needs to China and India. Those people are better at it, anyway, and just think - - we won't have to pay those silly little "engineers" anymore. You know - - the ones that really annoyed us with their intelligence before we got our MBAs.
"(and God willing He will do so again)" try agian i suggest you read the book before you try to use it fou satire
A growing (but now recognized as problematic) movement over the past few years has been the introduction of the "Investigations" math curriculum into public schools. see here. The goal is to make kids "feel better" about learning math, which in many ways has been a code for dumbing down the curriculum so that academic rigor is out and poorer students can achieve better on tests. They learn by approximating answers, like 12x48 will approximately be like 10x50. In my opinion, this is the opposite of math -- where the goal is to find the one *correct* answer.
In this curriculum, the kids learn by discovering the rules of math on their own, but this is absolutely ridiculous -- the whole point of passing knowledge through civilization is that we don't have to relearn like cavemen from birth. They spend time playing with blocks to count numbers, all the way up to 4th grade. These children are going to be severely hurt. Part of the problem is that teaching math at home has failed many of them, plus the teachers aren't qualified to teach math, so they grasp any curriculum that seems to make the subject more "fun" at the expense of real learning. An annoying part of the curriculum is that it also inserts a very touchy-feely agenda into the textbooks, and while I'm quite liberal about educating kids on history, etc., this has no useful place in math class.
Also, some people suspect that the test scores are rising because we're dumbing down the tests themselves -- which is outrageous. See here for example.
You may not think that these questions affect you, but they do. When we have a large fraction of the population unable to do basic math, we all will suffer. From things like being unable to hire competent workers, to the person serving you at a restaurant or a store unable to compute change, to your kid having access to only the most basic math education because the rest of the kids are so far behind they have to be specially taught, taking away resources for the higher achievers...(part of the No Child Left Behind = No Gifted Child Gets Ahead program) read this report on how gifted children are done given the shaft in the US..
Even school teachers I know don't know this. The Democratic propaganda was complete. Bush, as a bi-partisan gesture, let Kennedy write the bill.
Then, Bush gets blamed for No Child Left Behind not funding the schools properly, the tests are too hard, etc.
The bill was not intended to fund schools, but to set incentives for improvements in standardized tests, hold schools accountable for drop-out rates, etc..
The thing is, the American educational system has been working so hard for the last 20 years to make sure that everybody graduates and never gets held back (even though they can't read, write, or do basic math) because it might hurt their self esteem that they don't know how to teach the kids the basics and make graduation a reward, not a handout.
It sound more like you're trying to spread FUD or turn this into a political issue ("No child..."). You appear to be significantly misinformed, uninformed, or the kind of person who has an agenda of their own and will spare no topic in making sure their ideas are presented despite credibility.
Holmdel?
_______________________________
"I'm not Conceited...I'm just a realist..."
I'd be curious to see what this would look like if you excluded immigrants
:-)
You could find out by doing a study on Indians only, I guess.
But in fact, there seems to be a growing concern about always less students or highly qualified scientists coming to the US, especially since immigration has become increasingly difficult after 9/11, or simply because more people rather stay in their country or continent.
And Google is opening a European R&D center to get closer to European scientists who don't wish to emigrate, and to keep some current employees who want to leave the US.
Yes, I did indeed manage to post this in the wrong thread entirely. XD Oh well. I lose at slashdot.
*is run over by rotten tomatoes*
Rockaway Twp
You gotta find first gear in your giant robot car
Steve: a lot of your comments in /. are on the money or at least worth a read but "as long as we have a few smart people..." is abjectly elitist and dooms us to a downward spiral...I'm sure some in the whitehouse hold the same view even if they are not aware they are one of the dimwits. and as for "...it doesn't matter how many dumb people you have..." Did you notice our recent election?
...If only 5% of students are really good at math, that is still tens of millions of students and thats more than enough to engineer world class materials and products. The other 95% will get jobs to service others,...
I don't think so. Unless you can put that 5% all in one place, they won't have anybody who understands them, or can even STAND them and they won't have anybody to compete with. Don't underestimate comptetitive instinct as a motive to drag the best performance out of people. Having a place, like MIT, doesn't seem to work either: MIT gets only a fourth of its students from other countries as a matter of policy and could easily take more if grades and test scores were the only criteria for admission. Your spin on foriegn students misses the point: we need them as much as they need us if we are going to remain a country of "the best and the brightest" and keep the old phrase "American know-how" from becoming a joke.
Lets look at your math a bit more closely:
get the census bureau demographic picture for this [or any other ] country. In our case there are only 60 million people old enough to be in school. Suppose they all were in school. Then your 5% number is 3 million, country wide, in all grades who are capable of benefitting from a more strenuous math curriculum. No school system I know can provide tutors for a gifted 5%. Or, viewed another way, only in poorer schools [class size > 20 ]would you be likely to find even one of your worthy student per classroom on average.
NO. Wrong answer, Wrong attitude. The number who could really "get" most math is closer to 50% if it were a family and community value [read the comments about Korea] to do so and the salary and community respect for teachers would attract teachers that "got" math. People are put in classrooms to learn about things. They are put in familys to care about things...but the caring predicts success for the learning.
SLASHDOT: news for people who can't concentrate on work or have no life at all and got tired of yelling back at the TV.
The U.S. was mid table for both:
http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/15/47/34011082.xls
an American with PhD's in Math and Physics? Stupid American. -South Park
Change the perceptions, and you'll go a long way toward improving the scores.
We just went through at least a decade of young nerds becoming millionnaires, and in a few cases billionnaires, yet it failed to change the perception beyond creating a short-lived geek-is-cool phenomenon. The marketing machinery that drives our culture as well as our economy has no problem with telling people to dress or act like nerds, truckers or anything else if it sells more stuff, but there's no short-term profit incentive to convince people to actually improve their minds.
I'm afraid you're completely wrong here. Look at the complete list (here: http://nces.ed.gov/surveys/PISA/PISA2003Highlights Figures.asp?Quest=1&Figure=9)
I don't know about their high school requirement, but the university requirement usually tell a story.
1. Finland requires by law that EVERYBODY without exception has the right to go to university as long as he or she wants for free.
2. Korea (no personal info)
3. Netherlands: I don't know the current status, but until recently *every* student received free tuition and subsidy for university housing. In addition, the tuition is extremely low.
4. Japan (no personal info)
5. Canada has a very open school system. No exclusion there.
6. Belgium (where I used to live, now in US): there is 100% free choice of schools at every level. Tuition for University (and we're talking here about top-notch education here) is $600 per year. There are no limits at all. Everybody is free to go to any school he wants.
Sorry, but that means that of the top 6 at least 4 countries have a system that is way more free and inclusionary that the US system where you can only go to the school of your township and where university is incredibly expensive.
Tom
Finland once again came out top in the OECD's latest PISA study of learning skills among 15-year-olds, with high performances in mathematics and science matching those of top-ranking Asian school systems in Hong Kong-China, Japan and Korea.
Finland already led in the PISA 2000 reading assessment, and in PISA 2003 it maintained its high level of reading literacy while further improving its performance in mathematics and science.
It seems like Finnish teenagers are the best both in reading and math skills, but how come the biggest fear in Finnish minds is that Finland does not produce good enough engineers and some day Nokia will move its HQ out of Finland?!?
It's true. In the media this is (and has been) considered as the biggest threat to Finnish economy. No matter what you read, we think we suck. Maybe we do.
I'm not sure where the impression comes from that public school teachers are necessarily horribly paid. I just took a look at "average" salaries for my part of Connecticut on www.salary.com - elementary school teachers were listed at ~ $49,000/year, and high school teachers at ~ $51,000/year. This is for a job that requires a bachelor's degree and qualifying exam, and has very good job security.
For a similar level of training (eg. BS degree), starting level electrical engineering pays a little more ($57k/year). Same for chemical engineering. An architect with experience, graduate school, and a license comes in at $65k/year. A CAD drafter (who knows AutoCAD) can expect to make $39,000. An Assistant Branch Manager at a bank could hope to make $41k/year.
And if you expect that teachers could make another $4k by working for 10 weeks during the summer (and still having a month of vacation), it really doesn't sound like teachers make a bad salary. Not the same as a doctor or lawyer, but I don't see how you can say "Our society has made it nearly impossible to live on a teachers salary".
Would paying more attract better teachers? I don't know. Maybe, maybe not; but that's a different question.
I hear some Americans aren't doing too well in spelling & verbal, either...
Not that this is the only place where it is like I described, just that it's the only place I have had much experience. I'd assume many other places are just like what I described, but to state that as fact would be just as unsubstantiated as the claims others are making about our education system.
You gotta find first gear in your giant robot car
more is spent on education than defense!
0 29.asp)
2 1&sequence =0#table7
the federal budget is roughly 20% on defense.
compare that to local governments and state taxes, most of which goes to education.
As a result the total spent k-12 is $462 billion in 2001! (http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d03/tables/dt
Compare that to $306.1 on defense:
http://www.cbo.gov/showdoc.cfm?index=18
Bring back the old version of slashdot.
I live in Mexico! (4th from bottom) :(
Is it really surprising that the Czech republic spends less on education? Their Gross National Income per capita is $6,740, while it is $37,610 for the US source. I would be surprised if salaries there are 1/3 of salaries in the US; they're probably lower (though the purchasing power parity figures might be higher, but I doubt that's how the 1/3 figure was calculated). However, this doesn't mean that their teachers are any less effective, they just get paid less. So I fail to see how it is surprising that they get more for their money. Furthermore, for the Czech republic to spend 1/3 of what we spend on education, they would have to be spending a much larger percentage of their GDP on education than us, since our GDP is much larger than 3 times the Czech Republic's. So we find after all that the Czech republic cares a lot about education and spends a lot of their money on it. Is it any surprise then that their schools are good?
main(c,r){for(r=32;r;) printf(++c>31?c=!r--,"\n":c<r?" ":~c&r?" `":" #");}
Defense 3% in 2001
Education 4.6% in 2001
Bring back the old version of slashdot.
However, like all many other stereotypes, the acedemically competitive in America do quite exist, but are in the far minority.
I've attended private school all my life in the US of A [K-12, currently in 12th] and my fellow students are somewhat competitive. It's often subtle, but you notice it when we do modestly ask each other our SAT & ACT scores, GPA, or the amount of honors/AP classes we're taking.
Some of my friends go to public schools [suburban, somewhat affluent] and the competiveness exists there - But only among certain peers groups [i.e. the overachievers, Honors kids, etc.]. Other students at the same school, though, really don't give a shiat about academics, nor care that Pi DOES NOT equal 22/7 [Nor do they even know].
Instead, their concerns are based on the current pop culture trend @ the time.
The competitiveness of the students depends on the students themselves.
Boy I just love the word "Um". I can see you do too!
It always proceed soemthing when people think they are super-intelligent, and figure you are not.
Let's do a few calculations. What is 40/3?
Why it is ~13.3!!
So how is 28 13.3?
What you have proceeded to prove is that the US is in the top third!!! Indeed it is true that 70% is greater that 66% percent - the dividing line between the best third and the middle third. Pretty amusing, wouldn't you say? I didn't even think about the US being in the top third, just that they obviously were not in the bottom - think of it this way if you are still having issues, how can you be in the bottom third of ANYTHING when your rank sits above the halfway mark?
My guess is that you are a math major, they always did have problems with things like this.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Why are our math skills horrible in the United States? I would have to say it has a lot to do with our curriculum in the states. I am coming from a state that has the under average SAT scores in the nation. In my middle school and high school are still teaching kids basic mathematics instead of algebra.
No child left behind... We are behind in our math skills, which are incredibly important to keep our country competitive within this global market. I came into college with very little calculus to survive. I have notice in my school I am not the only person that feels under prepared.
Our government has to realize that tactic without strategy is going to do nothing. No Child left behind has to push teachers more into looking into the overall curriculum and not just how to boost test scores!
And our country wanting to include those students in an overall program of education is "elitist?"
I do agree that the U.S. being low on the chart is frightening, but again, I hold to my assertion that other countries are not necessarily holding their entire school population accountable. That would certainly lower the U.S. on the chart, but it would be artificially, and not based on the true statistics representing all students.
I'm sorry to say, my friend, but your ideology about the U.S. should be checked at the door before trying to counter an expert in the field in question.
Hey, joke is on me - I had that backwards after all...
Bad day at work, I'll just slink away now.
I hereby proclaim you absolutley smarter than myself - for today.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Donald 'Duck' Dunn: We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.
Actually in the studies I have read funding has only a very minor influence. The number one influence is parents, and nothing really comes close to that. A truely exceptional teacher can have an effect, but really parents are the problem and the solution.
Maybe we should start regulating and licensing parents...
while (sig==sig) sig=!sig;
Given that the percentage of immigrants (not born in the host country) in the US is lower (around 6%) than almost any other western country I can think of, I'm not sure what you expect to see. The UK is around 11%. Canada has something close to 20%. If you think that excluding immigrants would raise the US's score relative to the other countries, are you implying that immigrants have better math skills than the host country?
Cheers,
Toby Haynes
Anything I post is strictly my own thoughts and doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the opinions of IBM.
Mrs Krabappel: Now who's calculator can tell me what seven times eight is?
Milhouse: Oh oh oh, low battery!
Mrs Krabappel: Whatever
[Milhouse smiles in satisfaction]
Perhaps Richard P. Feynman can explain to us what the heck is happening with the current educational paradygm.
( http://www.drjez.com/uco/Feynman.pdf )
----
Excerpt from "Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman!" By Richard P. Feynman
In regard to education in Brazil, I had a very interesting experience. I was teaching a group of students who would ultimately become teachers, since at that time there were not many opportunities in Brazil for a highly trained person in science. These students had already had many courses, and this was to be their most advanced course in electricity and magnetism-Maxwell's equations, and so on. The university was located in various office buildings throughout the city, and the course I taught met in a building which overlooked the bay. I discovered a very strange phenomenon: I could ask a question, which the students would answer immediately. But the next time I would ask the question-the same subject, and the same question, as far as I could tell-they couldn't answer it at all!
For instance, one time I was talking about polarized light, and I gave them all some strips of polaroid. Polaroid passes only light whose electric vector is in a certain direction, so I explained how you could tell which way the light is polarized from whether the polaroid is dark or light. We first took two strips of polaroid and rotated them until they let the most light through. From doing that we could tell that the two strips were now admitting light polarized in the same direction-what passed through one piece of polaroid could also pass through the other. But then I asked them how one could tell the absolute direction of polarization, for a single piece of polaroid. They hadn't any idea. I knew this took a certain amount of ingenuity, so I gave them a hint: "Look at the light reflected from the bay outside." Nobody said anything. Then I said, "Have you ever heard of Brewster's Angle?" "Yes, sir! Brewster's Angle is the angle at which light reflected from a medium with an index of refraction is completely polarized." "And which way is the light polarized when it's reflected?" "The light is polarized perpendicular to the plane of reflection, sir." Even now, I have to think about it; they knew it cold! They even knew the tangent of the angle equals the index! I said, "Well?" Still nothing. They had just told me that light reflected from a medium with an index, such as the bay outside, was polarized; they had even told me which way it was polarized. I said, "Look at the bay outside, through the polaroid. Now turn the polaroid." "Ooh, it's polarized!" they said. After a lot of investigation, I finally figured out that the students had memorized everything, but they didn't know what anything meant. When they heard "light that is
reflected from a medium with an index," they didn't know that it meant a material such as water. They didn't know that the "direction of the light" is the direction in which you see something when you're looking at it, and so on. Everything was entirely memorized, yet nothing had been translated into meaningful words. So if I asked, "What is Brewster's Angle?" I'm going into the computer with the right keywords. But if I say, "Look at the water," nothing happens-they don't have anything under "Look at the water"!
Finally [in my speech to the teachers], I said that I couldn't see how anyone could be educated by this self-propagating system in which people pass exams, and teach others to pass exams, but nobody knows anything. "However," I said, "I must be wrong. There were two students in my class who did very well, and one of the physicists I know was educated entirely in Brazil. Thus, it must be possible for some people to work their way through the system, bad as it is." Well, after I gave the talk, the head of the science education department got up and said, "Mr. Feynman has told us some things that
4th in Texas? Pathetic.
What's worse is that you have to say some other team won it with luck. You lost AND you're a sore loser.
if any of you have read "The Nothing That Is: A Natural History of Zero" by Robert Kaplan and live in the Boston/Cambridge area check out the Math Circle...info here:
http://www.themathcircle.org/
Anyway, the actual point of the original post was so clear and incontrovertible that hardly any comment was necessary. Moderation +5 is comment enough.
I know of one person who was a friend of my sister. She was graduated even though she barely has a ten year old's reading comprehension. Worse for math as I understand it.
I can and will blame all schools where they tolerate that 'It'll hurt their self esteem to fail them', crap.
I blame schools where teachers are allowed to impose their political agendas on the students.
I blame schools where most of the budget goes to the football team instead of promoting academics.
I blame schools where teachers allow the football players to cheat in order to get good enough grades to keep playing.
Parents can only do so much when the system is stacked against them and the teachers work to cover each other.
It takes logical thought to do mathematics.
Just dumb down the subject until anybody can pass. Then nobody can be left behind. Isn't that more fair?
Math isn't useful anyway. I have a bachelors in math myself, never did me much good, I think the janitor earns a higher salary.
The USA is getting away from the science/engineering stuff. That stuff is delegated to the third world now.
In the USA, we will all become rich by suing each other. It's a lot easier than studying math, and *much* more pofitable.
From personal experience, school was too boring to be able to sit there for that long. Increasing the time spent at school would only make the problem worse. We spent a lot of time sitting there and not much time learning.
I did have a few teachers who were more "hands on" and would do experiments in class, but those teachers never seemed to last- they were replaced by seemingly less intelligent teachers who only read from a book. Not surprisingly, I learned from the "hands on" teachers while I couldn't even keep my concentration when the teacher just read from books.
My point is that it's the quality of the education that's all wrong here, not the quantity. Keep kids interested in learning and they'll learn. Bore them to death and they'll look out the window.
Speaking of misunderstanding numbers, you should not that the US ranked 28th of 40 in terms of education quality / dollars spent. This isn't in any way the same as saying that US student's ranked 28th of 40, since we spend more per student than the average country.
Moreover, it's hard to say how this comparison was made, since it does not say how they quantified quality, or what metric they used to compare currency spent here to the currency spent elsewhere. Obviously, exchange rates would not make a good comparison, since they are so volatile and have more to do with a countries debt and trade deficits than they have to do with the actual purchasing power of the money in the country where it was spent.
I'm 15, and won't turn 16 until the school year is over. I am in AP Calculus. I did Geometry and Algebra II, which this survey focuses on, in 7th and 8th grade. (then I skipped 9, and had trig/pre-calc in 10th). I am a junior now.
Slackers.
Sick
I live in a box, eat nought but my socks, and gee, it rocks
Give me a break. First of all, lets look at some stats that actually matter: Czech Repub: Population: 10,246,178 Net migration rate: 0.97 migrant(s)/1,000 population South Korea: Population: 48,598,175 Net migration rate: 0 migrant(s)/1,000 population USA: Population: 293,027,571 Net migration rate: 3.41 migrant(s)/1,000 population The above article doesn't count the fact that we have a huge amount of immigrant children in our school system that don't even speak the same language as the teacher. And a little off the topic... What's up with all these reports that California schools are so terrible, according to standardized test scores. Does anyone even know how many ethnic groups there are in this state?!? 2000 Census data shows 39% of Californians age 5 and over, don't even speak English and their primary language at home (as opposed to Colorado's 15%). And how many languages do CA public schools they teach math in? One. http://www.census.gov/census2000/states/ca.html
What kids did they test in the foriegn countries? Something most people forget, or perhaps never knew, is that many other countries have segregated schools based off of performace. In Germany for example there are three major tiers:
Hauptschule: This is basically vocational school, the idea being that you probably don't get any further schooling after this. In the US it would be to say your intention is to get a highschool diploma, nothing more, with an emphasis on practical clases.
Realschule: This is something like a trade school, idea being maybe some secondary training. In the US, it would be for those that wanted to go on to get an AA degree or the like.
Gymnasium: This is for the university bound kids.
(Note that they do have a couple of alternitives to this kind of schooling as well)
Ok, well if the kids you are testing are the ones int the Gymnasium and maybe in the Realschule but not the Hauptschule, your averages will be much higher. This is often how the testing is done for academic tests, given that the kids in teh lower schools aren't on a track for an academic life anyhow.
I don't have the time to read the whole survey, but I could not find any data on this. They claim that countries sought to include as wide a cross section as possible, but made no specifics to level of education of the students. That a student is in a given grade says nothing. In grade 12 at my high school a student could be in anything from calculus to remedial algerbra. The same is not true of a student in a Gymnasium.
I additonally question these studies because of my personal experience with people educated under a foriegn system. I work for an Electrical and Computer Engineering department which, as one might expect, has a high percentage of foriegn students, primarly Indian and Asian.
What I continually find is that the Chinese students in particular are very good with memorization and forumlas, but very bad at analysis and application. They can crunch numbers like nothing, but when it comes to applying that knowledge to simple real-world scenarios, they are sunk. For them, being smart is knowing a lot of facts and forulams and being able to mash them together, not being able to synthesize and apply data to the real world.
As you note with your "don't give a fuck" stastic, I'd need to see a lot more controls before I'd consider this meaningful. I'd want to know things like how intelligence correlated to score, and what level of education the kids recieving the scores recieved (at the very least).
Who cares about math, when we have to teach our children morals thru the use of pray and creationism. Seriously people, I certainly couldn't do that alone as a parent. I want everyone elses dollars to raise my children for me. Then when we live in a perfect christian society and there are no more jews or muslims or whomever, then we can worry about silly stuff like math. Did Jesus have math? No, all you need to know is that 2 of every species were put on a boat and there were 12 dudes for some super.
You call him a troll. But truely taking into account being a teenager, its on the top 10 list of priorities, even if its marked
(X) Not going to happen soon.
"Probably not."
"sweet dreams are made of this..."
http://britneyspears.ac/lasers.htm
This is the instruction hours that I had in high school in Poland:
weekly:
math 8h
polish/literature 6h
physics 4h
chemistry 2h
biology 2h
geography 2h
history 2h
english 3h
russian 3h
arts 2h
music 2h
physical ed 4h
civics 1h
class with class tutor 1h
Apply for 4 years
As I understand it, he usually had a mathematical assistant to help him out with the heavy duty math. I remember reading a passage in some book where Einstein was in despair because he couldn't complete his work on general relativity but fortunately some mathematician told him about Riemannian geometry and, I think, that solved most of his problems.
"sweet dreams are made of this..."
I'm trying to figure out the downside here, and it's just not coming to me. So Americans are lousy at math. So what? Why should we care? It's not like we need them to be able to solve math problems.
The only reason we need Americans is that somebody has to be the first one through the door when the shooting starts. The last thing we need is for them to start learning how to do something useful and productive with their lives. Let other people do the math. Let the Americans be what they were born to be. Door-openers.
jhw
When I was in grade school, (holy shit, WAY back when!) I failed math horribly. The teacher said I was stupid, even though I was getting straight A's in everything but math. She said "Do the work" with no instruction or assistance. Everything had to be by the book. She flunked me without even looking at me.
Later on, taking another math class, a different teacher saw that I was struggling with math. He took some time to find the problem area, fix the problem and help me understand math better. I got an A in that class at the end of that year.
With an A on my report card, I showed it to my first math teacher. She suggested I cheated. And being the smartass 9-year-old I was, I told her he was a "useless peice of shit", just like daddy used to say to mommy, and walked away.
Summer detention sucked.
- Just my $0.02, take with a grain of salt, your mileage may vary.
..but I visit a lot, especially California and the southern states. I am also of Latin American heritage.
So with that crap out of the way....
The answer is pretty obvious. America should be scoring about as well as Canada, if you compare the two countries middle classes. The problem is the huge Latin population in the States are so insulated and their host counties make so little effort to integrate them or improve their scores.
The majority of Slashdotters here are European- or Asian- background Americans. Compare yourselves to European or Asian background Canadians and I bet your scores would be pretty similar. The problem is the Latin underclass that your country ignores.
This post isn't meant to be racist or self-hating.... Latinos are just as capable as anyone else, given the right opportunities. Give them the right opportunities, America, and watch your country get even better.
Either I'm not an immigrant, because I was born in the US, or the "Native Americans" are immigrants too. The best modern science can come up with, human kind started out from Africa. So if you do not live in Africa, you are an immigrant, no matter where you live.
The "Native Americans" came via land bridge from Asia, while the rest of us came a little latter by boat (or plane today). There is some evidence that there may have been a socity before the "Native Americans", but I don't know if that has ever been credited.
I know several parrents who send their children to immersion schools. Despite the kids growing up in an english only home, by 6th grade they are fluent in Spanish or French, AND they do at least as well as their peers who go to standard english only schools!
You are missing the biggest factor: the parents of those kids care enough to make the kids learn.
Maybe companies wouldn't be complaining so much that they HAVE to outsource because they can't FIND qualified applicants if American citizens had necessary math and logic skills. Add that to the earlier article about how Americans apparently can't write English, either, and it's a wonder companies can find employees at all.
Everyone go right now and volunteer at your local school or after-school program to tutor kids in math. NOW.
Students in countries that emphasize theorems and rote are going to have different focus of skills, and they're not going to do as well on tests that emphasize things other than theorems!
Since the questions that they are asking are about practical mathematics, of course countries focusing on practical mathematics will do better.
Practical mathematics is not all there is to mathematics, and it seems really tenuous to claim this means their skills are necessarily better in general.
It's up for everyone to decide for themselves whether they think rigor or practicality ("use what works" or seems to work) is more important.
I don't see how it follows from the fact that they have a different skill set, that they lag behind.
The purpose of any education system is to provide the opportunity to learn to those who _want_ to learn. I'd rather have an education system that puts out a few brilliant people a year than the one that's good "on average" but doesn't put out any geniuses.
You've just outlined precisely the attitude that spells out why the U.S. is languishing in maths, and countries like Australia (where I teach) are doing quite well. The purpose of any education system is most certainly not to churn out 'a few geniuses', leaving everyone else to languish in uneducated stupor. Societies composed of the majority being of acceptable skill are far more productive and desirable than the scenario you describe. The occasional exceptionally gifted individual is certainly desirable, but we should not exaggerate their overall usefulness to society to demigodlike proportions.
Also, as adults, we recognise the value of learning. Children, unsuprisingly due to their limited life experience, may not immediately recognise this value (i.e. they may not 'want' to learn). It is our role as parents and educators to motivate and instill a love of learning consistently throughout schooling, and provide learning experiences that are enjoyable and likely to encourage students of the value of lifelong learning.
The scenario of giving up on every student who doesn't display orgasmic joy at the thought of doing algebra condemns a society to mediocrity - so given your nation's current maths education status, it seems that many of your countrymen agree with your philosophy.
Let's face it, you don't need math to flip hamburgers or to do plumbing work. Heck, many programmers in the company where I work are puzzled by the most trivial math formulae. Despite of this they do their jobs fairly well.
Yes, you do - you need maths for all of that stuff, and you use it too. Jeez, even a burger-flipper needs to be able to count how many burgers he's flipping, and how many patties he needs to make X burgers. Plumbers use maths constantly - do you think pipes just miraculously appear at the correct size? Plumbers are highly skilled professionals, and they and other trades are too frequently disdained by those of us with a University education - the amount of knowledge they need and apply daily is considerable. There are also a lot fewer unemployed plumbers than computer programmers around ATM, so maybe that's telling you something too? Who contributes more to the society in which they live - these maths 'geniuses', or the plumbers whose level of knowledge you scorn?
The thing with this kind of math usage is that since people do it 'without feeling it', people who don't know better assume that no mathematics usage is taking place. In fact, frequently, this is precisely the way that most maths in put into practice on a daily basis, but somehow this kind of arithmetic is viewed as unworthy because it doesn't involve formulae and 'higher maths'.
99% of the maths that people do in their daily lives falls into the categories you have just described as 'mathsless'.
SofaMan -- Occasionally Battling Evil With His Mighty Powers Of Indolence.
28th of 40 is on the bottom TWO thirds, moron!
What I've always wondered about these math surveys is if they are comparing our High School students with the same types of kids in other countries. I know that in Germany for instance, not every kid goes to "high school" which is the track for going to the university. Many kids go to other schools where they focus on learning a trade. Are these surveys comparing all American kids to all European kids - or just those likely to go to University? Has anybody ever done a study on first year university student in various countries and how their math skills compare?
Parents don't apply pressure on their kids to do better in school, they feel it's not important. It's common belief among bureaucrats and administrators today that education spending is always positively correlated with educational return -- which is usually true, -- but we have to consider how this money is spent.
Take my school district for example. Last year, several million dollars were spent on bathroom renovations and a NEW gym. So our school has new bathrooms (which have already been wrecked) and a new gym (whose size is comparable to our old one, which is still what we're using for PE). Our teachers, however, are currently going on strike over wages. Several popular courses, including an excellent creative writing class, were cut.
Let's face it, we Americans are too convinced of our superiority. We consider our lax educational policies to be an evolution and laugh upon those who are forced into school 6 days a week. But who can blame us, being painfully wealthy tends to make you stupid.
Did the mathematicians take it over?
"sweet dreams are made of this..."
In defense of the state of Kansas (where I am from), the creationism thing was _NOT_ supported by the population. During that period I had not met a single person who supported it, even my uber-religious aunt Wanda was against it. The local opinion polls reflected this, only like 10% of Kansans supported teaching creationism in schools. This was yet another example of the wrong people getting into power, and they were voted out at the next election. Reinstating evolution in classrooms was one of the first things the new education board did.
Kansas as a whole did not support that. A very small (and nowadays vocal) minority did. Cut us some slack.
The "Principle of Maximum Laziness".
nuf said.
Barbie? I thought it was George Bush who said that.
"Indeed, in the US, it is financial status which is often the most important factor in determining access to quality education: either you earn enough money to buy a home in a school district with good public schools or you are able to pay for private education."
Or you're willing to go into significant debt to get that "quality" education.
Until we impress on young minds the fact that cool or uncool makes no difference when you're grown and penniless
An interesting tangent on this -- my wife grew up in Malaysia, and when she was a kid the smartest kids *were* the most popular. No one wanted to hang out with the kids who were doing poorly in their classes, because they weren't cool. Appearance mattered somewhat, too, but was less of a factor. And all the kids she knew *liked* vegetables -- she was totally baffled when she learned about how everyone in the US "knows" that kids just automatically don't like vegetables, need special kids menus with chicken fingers, etc.. None of her friends were like that. Here favorite food growing up was spinach (still is, actually). Yes, I'm totally serious.
Malaysia has problems of their own that seriously hinder education, like blatantly racist policies controlling access to higher education, but the totally different path to "cool" is worth noting. It's NOT automatic that the "nerds" are unpopular (and then never learn proper social skills...), or even that there is some derogatory name for them.
I wish I could follow this up with some good suggestions for fixing this problem... but I'm kind of lost for answers on that one. The first step is at least pointing it out -- then maybe we can work on building better ways for kids to actually use what they learn to do cool stuff; that should help.
This may not fully explain the results, but isn't one of the issues with this kind of test is that many countries do not have compulsatory education - the poor students get weeded out of the system, leaving only their best to be tested?
Seriously, our schools are certainly not great and yet there is still so much innovation in this country. I really have a hard time believing that that many other countries have solved the fundamental problems with public education, and that we are so far behind so many poorer countries. These tests certainly seem flawed.
If they are basing this on those tests they give you in school and say "This isn't for a grade" how much effort are the students going to give? I know I didn't care unless it affected me on the report card side of things.
That still leaves 90% who feel great about it!
There exists no way of exchanging information without making judgments. --Bene Gesserit Axiom
and multiply the "math". Also, while I agree with most of what you said, the general unwillingnes to learn is not the problem of the education system.
I strongly disagree about the geniuses though. Geniuses are the ones who move the mankind forward, not the average Joes. You can have hundred million plumbers, but for a scientific breakthrough you need a scientist and funds to sponsor his research. The US education system creates plenty of scientists, and when it doesn't, it imports them pretty successfully. And this makes it overwhelmingly and ultimately good, even though most kids don't know what hyperbolic sine is.
I have read a host of lame rationalizations, but this is one of the lamest.
c tbook/geos/ ez.html
Czech Republic has Universal education, probably more universal than the USA. There Literacy rate is 99.9% vs the 97% of the USA.
Source CIA world factbook.
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/fa
And how do you rationalize Canada and Finland good results.
Top ten? Top two. High end of top two.
"Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!" - Glen Beck
I strongly disagree about the geniuses though. Geniuses are the ones who move the mankind forward, not the average Joes. You can have hundred million plumbers, but for a scientific breakthrough you need a scientist and funds to sponsor his research. The US education system creates plenty of scientists, and when it doesn't, it imports them pretty successfully. And this makes it overwhelmingly and ultimately good, even though most kids don't know what hyperbolic sine is.
I agree with you. I made no claim that gifted individuals (I dislike the word 'genius' - it has overtones that their giftedness is innate, and not hard fought) are unnecessary or undesirable. Rather, I made the claim that a education system that churns out a few geniuses and nothing else is ultimately far less productive than a society that produces predominantly competent or average individuals - there are no examples of educational systems that produce *no* gifted individuals, so it is pointless to compare the former situation to this.
By eliminating arithmetic from 'maths', you eliminate the vast majority of the human experience of maths.
SofaMan -- Occasionally Battling Evil With His Mighty Powers Of Indolence.
the general unwillingnes to learn is not the problem of the education system.
I'm unsure what you mean by this - if you mean that the problem is not caused by the education system, then the answer is both yes and no. There are many factors both inside and outside of the education systems that can affect motivation to learn.
If, however, you mean that the problem is not the responsibility of the education system to solve, then I disagree most emphatically, though I did hold similar misunderstandings about the learning process and the role of motivation before I became a professional educator.
It is not merely the teacher's job to shoehorn knowledge into the eager waiting brains of their students - this represents a fundamental misunderstanding of how people learn. Students need to construct their own knowledge, with the aid of the teacher - this requires that the learning process be engaging and motivating. Providing learning experiences of this kind is most definitely the responsibility of the education system.
SofaMan -- Occasionally Battling Evil With His Mighty Powers Of Indolence.
I'm in the student government at Oregon State University and just recieved a briefing on this same issue last week. The briefing was conducted by the universities Athletics Department. The football team, while not quite top tier, is 3rd in the PAC10. The football team does not even create enough revenue to support itself and is still subsidized by the university. It does bring in large ammounts of money in less tangible forms such as increased enrollment and increased visibility for the school.
Pod Six was jerks- Capt. Murphy
I find it interesting not so much in the results, but the method used to gather this data. They use standardized testing, which is wildly inaccurate when you consider the methods by which other countries are taught. A majority of the countries use methods which fail to test comprehension, but rather how many facts (yes, there are math facts) you can remember. It is just like the kid who takes the SAT 8 times and gets a 1600, if you keep taking tests over and over, you will eventually ace it. The same falls true for these other tests: foreign students memorize data, they don't comprehend it. This can be seen in the results we are getting from offshoring Software Engineering: we get shit results. These people are not educated in the same method as those in the United States, and from the current state of World Industry (tech and other) we are demolishing the competition. And a quick note for the inevitable mention of "Japanese Superior Methods", it should be noted that the methods currently used in Japanese schools, as well as work.
Before we berate ourselves for not being good at math, we should ask "Why do we need to learn math?".
Ask a thousand people if they remember studying algebra in school. Almost everyone says yes. Ask if anyone has ever used algebra even once since leaving school. Maybe one in a thousand will say yes.
The real problem is not that people are not good at math. The real problem is that the people entrusted to run the schools are obsessed by judging their success by having people master a subject that they will NEVER need or use.
Algebra is an arbitrary discipline. It could just as easily be some other useless topic mastered for no real reason except for the shared assumption among educators that this is an important subject that must be learned.
When I grew up in Massachusetts this type of subject was Latin language. I refused to study it and was held back a grade until my parents were able to pull some strings and have me placed in a French language class. (another absurd subject like Latin and algebra, as it turned out).
Eventually even educators have an collective "Emperor's New Clothes" moment and stop investing prestige in absurd subjects. Algebra is most likely the next on that list.
I know that, you know that. I could care less what the average person learns. My child will get a beteer education because I care. I'll make sure they study, read lots, and learn things outside the system. If the average American lags then that will enable my kid to get ahead that much more easily.
We do offshore the results of the failed and stupid education system.
Those who can't hack the bullshit of school are given the choice of WalMart, prison, or the military. If (and when) they chose the military, they are shipped off to distant lands where their deaths will bring the most profit and least cost to the corporations that own them (by proxy).
This is the offshoring of the American education system.
English is the only language in the world that allows any word to be any part-of-speach by changing it position in the sentence word order. In no other language could the word 'offshore' be used unchanged as a verb, noun, adjective in the same paragraph and make any sense. Part of the reason that America has such a flexible and adaptive culture is because it has such a flexible and adaptive language.
All able bodied U.S. kids should do military service (or AmeriCorps public service) from ages 16 till 20.
They'll gain real world experiences, and
they could get a GI bill type grant for higher education when they are done.
America's youth will then learn skills they really need, like how to make change, work on construction projects, demonstrate leadership potential, and a positive outlook toward society.
This would put an otherwise untapped resource to work for our United States of America.
Kudos for admitting it! Now all you have to do is point out that you were educated in the U.S., so we know it's not your fault and we can all feel sorry for you. ;)
My parents exerted control over my academic achievements until about 8th grade. I would not get a good treatment for bringing in "B's" and "C's", and for lower grades, I'd get my ass spanked. They also emphasized countless times just how important it is to get good education. There was "labor therapy" as well. They'd have me work in the garden with them for hours on end and after this they'd tell me that I can drop out of high school if I want to be doing this till the end of my life. And I didn't want to, so I studied well. I think if more kids in the US had the attention they deserve from their parents, the education system would rank among the best in the world.
are you misunderstanding teaching FOR the test with teaching TO the test?
Teaching FOR the test teaches the concepts that the students need to pass the exam that is beneficial...
teaching TO the test teaches the kids in ways that display questions in the form that they will be asked and types of questions that can be found on the test. that's not beneficial to students all it does it teach them how to solve a small set of situations using a tool.
like teaching a child to add by always giving them one kind of question format and one kind or two kinds of situations does not teach them adding... it teaches them how to solve the problems that fit the circumstances that you presented them with in school.
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
But this is not about failing the child. This is about how to educate the child so he can pass the exams.By the parents taking an interest in their child's education and helping the child to learn the material.No one is stopping the advanced children from learning on their own. Only you can hold you back.Somehow, I don't see the cheerleaders drooling over the kid in the advanced math class.
The kids who are getting bad grades don't care about getting better grades. They have a different value system.
Now, how do you tell a 16 year old that getting "C's" is a bad thing when he's on the football team, getting drunk with his friends and fucking cheerleaders.
Sure, he could be staying home and studying to get better grades
Somehow, I don't see how reading the World Book Encyclopedia can match a weekend of drunken sex for a 16 year old. Maybe it's different for you.
sounds like a parent who hates public education.
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
Why is this "Liberal propaganda" Because you don't agree with it? If you genuinely care about this country you should be concerned. Or are you so obsessed with declaring the USA is #1 in everything that any suggestion that that might not be the case is automatically discounted by you as 'propaganda'
Well now I know you aren't a mathematician, ${deity} save us from the math cargo cultists.
Approximation is a very important skill, and if the US is anything like Australia, very, very poorly taught. The fact is exact answers are completely useless in real life - all that matters is accurate enough, when you need it (the measurements aren't exact anyway).
Math is about solving problems: sometimes practical everyday problems, sometimes esoteric theory, but the rules are the same you find a solution that meets the constraints of the problem.
Not being able to estimate the area of a room 4.9m x 5.1m because you don't know your 49 times table, and you can't do long multipication in your head isn't going to help anyone.
First... if you're judging public education by your experience back in the 80's, you don't know shit. Education has changed since then. Some changes for the better, some not, but it's different. So shut up.
Second... if you are judging american schools based on your own experience in one or two schools, you don't know shit. That's a sample that is too small to be statistically significant.
Third... don't compare the US to countries where they get to kick all the dumb kids out by age 12. Some countries do that, you know. And only the bright ones get to go to prep (for college) school. Not all countries do that, but some.
Fourth... don't assume that throwing more money at the problem will not help. It will. Let me explain. We can't get teachers because no one wants the shit pay and lack of respect. Steve Jobs said it best. Pay teachers $100,000 per year. What would happen? We'd have extreme competition and some of the brightest and best people would pursue teaching, instead of a field that actually pays their fucking bills. The more competition, the higher the quality of the candidates. Teaching would be a respected profession. Kids would want to grow up to be teachers. The process of learning would take on a greater meaning because it would be tied to what we americans worship most - the almighty fucking dollar.
Fifth... don't think you can throw the blame at one or two groups. Our entire economy and way of life is based on us continually buying a bunch of shit we don't really need (capitalism.) There are larger factors at play here than just "bad parents." Everyone, including parents and teachers and students themselves, needs to do their part to help.
By the way, I work at a high school. I am doing my part.
Music - www.richardmac.com
Many of my students (who tend to be American) complain about how the math they learn has no basis in reality. When presented with a practical application, they piss and moan about how much they hate word problems.
I'm sure that they would do much better in practical applications of math if they were better at reading English.
Students shouldn't be rated on a test that doesn't mean anything to them. In my experience, my fellow classmates never cared about testing that wasn't for a grade. Fill in the bubbles turned into, who could make the best picture. The only time they did care about is when they were offered college money for doing well.
Devise, Repair, Solve, Build
Schools buy textbooks with eye candy and bulk discounts that make the adminstrators happy.
No one gives a damn what the math teachers think.
In our local school district, the math teachers on the district textbook committee overwhelmingly recommended Saxon textbooks. The district bought Addison-Wesley books. These books had lots of pretty pictures, but were totally useless for any sort of teaching.
I'm losing a mod point but this needs to be said.
> Meanwhile Canada admits far more immigrants per capita than the United States,
> and they're sitting twenty-one places ahead of the U.S. in these rankings.
Take a look at the names of our top students.
It's the immigrants that achieve the highest results.
Examples:
http://www.yrdsb.edu.on.ca/page.cfm?id=NW0407221
http://www.yrdsb.edu.on.ca/page.cfm?id=NW0307162
Here's a nice book to learn from (cheap too) Word, math, and pictorial representations.
...at Rationalizing. Giving credit where do (time to burn some Karma)
I have seen a ton of rationalization in this thread.
Mostly like, yeah, but some of these countries don't let the dumber kids going to school. Or Asian kids spend 16 hour a day in school and get 16 hours of homework every night. Or they teach
the test.... Talk about grasping.
Then there was the rationalization that Math isn't important. Argh!
Wake up and smell the cofee. You were 28 out of 40 countries tested. You were whipped by Canada and Finland. Both western democracies with universal education.
I went to school in Canada, and frankly if you are that far behind us you are in trouble, because frankly I was not that impressed by our education system. It has a lot of room for improvement. It was pretty slack and most of weren't that serious about it (including the teachers). Yeah small sample, but Canada was also one of the countries where they claimed consistent quality among schools. So unless my experiences were anomolies, there was nothing special going on.
This should be a wake up call. Heck if I was in Canadian education system. I would be reading the report with a fine tooth comb to see where we could improve, with an eye on what the Fins do.
But the American attitude to doing much worse seems to be to blame the test, or other student habits, maybe this is something picked up in the American School system?
I sucked at arithmetic, but I NEVER sucked at Math. I could solve quadriatic equations without thinking, but doing multiplication on paper was very hard for me. I was dyslexic and would transpose numbers unknowingly - I suffered my mathlessness for 7 long years before I got into a grade where they taught PURE mathematics. Mathematics is not Arithmetic, do not confuse it at any cost.
I understand geometry and algebra - I just learned arithmetic. After completing an entire engineering degree, I still can't do arithmetic without a calculator. It's still easier for me to prove Cantor's theorem or to intergrate an expression than to add up and calculate the percentage for my college exams. Man !! , I even qualified for IIT (but I didn't go as I only got Mech and stayed somewhere where I could study Computers) without being able to multiply fractions properly.Btw, if any mathematicians are around - Please let me know if you have any good explanations of how Pythagoras theorem came into being ?. I don't mean just the proof from theorem - but the real root derievation of the theorem. I just hate it how students just accept it as a fundamental theorem without questioning !! . It's easy to learn, but I need to know how it came about to understand it.
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur
110% untrue. 2 to 1 that it's wrong, and 50% isn't bad odds.
"Me fail English? That's unpossible." Ralph Wiggum
1. Finland
2. Korea
3. Canada
4. Hong Kong-China
5. Netherlands
6. Macao-China
7. Licchtenstein
8. Japan
9. Austrailia
10. Switzerland
11. Iceland
12. New Zealand
13. Denmark
14. Belgium
15. Czeck Republic
16. France
17. Ireland
18. Sweden
19. Austria
20. Slovak Republic
21. Norway
22. Germany
23. Luxemborg
24. Poland
25. Spain
26. Hungary
27. Latvia
28. Unites States
29. Portugal
30. Russian Federation
31. Italy
32. Greece
33. Serbia
34. Uraguay
35. Turkey
36. Mexico
37. Brazil
38. Tunesia
39. Indonesia
There are several different tables in the report if you don't like this one, measuring different things. RTF-PDF if you want more data.
Go Canada #3!
are you confusing the czech repiblic with chechenya?
Don't you guys get it?
The US kids are the smart ones here. While Czech/Korean/Other kids are busting their asses to score high on achievement tests and getting little to no funding compared to American schools, progeny of the United States are sitting on their asses not caring about achievement tests and getting people to throw more and more money at them so their grades improve!
Yikes, I wish I came up with a plan so clever while I was in High School!
`which fortune`
Not for nothing (I DO respect Singapore's accomplishments) but there are more people in NYC alone than all of Singapore.
Those biased anti-Americans didn't take into account intellient design, which explains the poor science scores. And they probably also didn't test for understanding of Bush's special math skills to explain his budget policy and social security plan. And I bet the TV guide wasn't on the reading list the students were tested on.
If you *design* the tests to achieve anti-American results, why be surprised when sure enough Americans do poorly? Forget the liberaly biased OECD, I for one am waiting for a less biased organization like FOX News to give us a fair and balanced result that shows us who's really number one. God bless America!
501 Not Implemented
hehe, we FIRST veterans laugh at your punyness
j/k
Way to be down on the US man, except you forgot one thing - 28th out of fourty just doesn't work out to being in the bottom third, no matter what country you are from!
Yes it does. A third of 40 is 13 & 1/3. Times 2 is 26 & 2/3. We'll round that off to 27, and you still have to rank 27th or better to be in the top two-thirds. 28th is the highest member in the bottom third (unless we count 27th as the bottom third as well...in which case 28th is just more securely in the bottom third...)
"I don't care about the Constitution!" --Bill O'Reilly, November 17, 2009
As an engineer, I think that teaching the kids how to approximate is excellent.
In practical applications finding "one *correct* answer" doesn't usually matter.
In fact, the whole concept of calculus is based on approximation (since nothing ever really "goes to infinity").
Most students can follow specific algorithms for finding exact solutions. The problem is that the students don't have any intuition for the underlying concepts.
Teaching students how to approximate will give them an intuition that will allow them to *understand* the methods which give exact solutions instead of just memorize those methods.
I don't think that this is dumbing things down at all. I think that you just have some specific preferences about the way you think people should view math which you are mistaking for the "right" way to view math.
For practical applications, math isn't about "correct answers." It is about answers that work.
You thought that that was funny?
I thought it was a reminder of how scary it really is.
Score: +1 Scary
I was surprized the first time I came to know that you folks are allowed to use calculators in high school exams!!
;)
and
In India, calculators are banned from exams/classes till high school.
emphasis added. Basically, you are saying that in India you can use calculators in high school exams, but are suprised that you can use calculators in high school exams in America?! Come on we aren't that backward!
That said it is a somewhat recent development. We were not allowed calulators in exams in my high school.
The problem isn't calulators, nor is it low teacher pay. It is the "universal" idea combined with teachers in a system where taking a class or two is valued more than actual teaching.
My Suburban burns less gasoline than your Prius.
part of the No Child Left Behind = No Gifted Child Gets Ahead program
Too late. It happened over 15 years ago. I was in the "gifted" programs from day one until they killed them because it made others feel inadequate.
My Suburban burns less gasoline than your Prius.
did the study account for the cost of living? sure, the USA spends a lot of money per student, but then maybe everything just costs more here. a higher cost of living means we have to pay our teachers more, it costs more to build schools and facilities, etc.
Or, to be putting into the one word - "Indians".
select * from base where originalOwner = 'you' and currentOwner != 'us'.
0 rows returned.
I was just a few classes shy of a math minor in college, I think I will chose to blame that instead and at least be a little consistant with my previous message... :-)
Actually I was having the trouble of dealing with some very dense people at work and I'm afraid I was sucked into teh Stupidity Vortex they were generating.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
If we'd stop focusing on the "legendary football" heroes and games, we'd spend a lot more on ACTUAL schooling. You don't see any 6'2" tall, 285 pound Korean high school football jocks do you? Americans seem to be in it for the short-run; fast, easy money while the rest of us suffer. Its no wonder they're kicking our asses in the electronics, chemistry, and physics fields! Texas is a prime state of football. If you don't play football, you're nothing. In fact, they cut our budgets for spending on art, music, literature, engineering AND science! Why? Just to build another fucking stadium for the football "heroes" who don't have 2 brain cells to rub together. And almost every high school football player I know uses the excuse, "No Pass, No Play." That's bullshit. That "rule" has been abused to the point of ridicule and means precisely nothing if you're fast on your feet and can catch an inflated wad of invertely-sewn, swine epidermals. I know I'm just asking for the "flamebait" award with this response, but I can't stand here and not say anything about this. Its true, the US is growing up to be stupid. How about we put our noses to the grind-stone, make some changes in the system and take our stand on edumacation? Er, education... "...and learning ain't not bad!" --Bart Simpson.
-- Game Developers: Stop porting badly-textured games from crappy console systems!
a survey of what the world thinks "are NOT 3rd world countries"? they tryin to tell me dat India is not in the top 20 in math? couple of years back the IITns found out soln to a NP complete problem.
did these guys even invite the south asians?
1. Which other country on this planet teaches their children as though they will all go to college?
2. What is this fascination that President Bush has with Children not having a 'Left Behind'?
I used to be a high-school math teacher (now a college prof in CS).
Few math teachers majored in math. My theory is that few math teachers love math. I taught in a summer program for bright students and a frequent comment I got was "I never before saw anyone excited about math!"
If you don't think that math is fun, exciting, and cool, you will not get students excited about it. Not only does this apply to math classes at higher levels, but also to early elementary levels where math-phobic teachers are common.
In the US teaching is not a high status profession and in most places it is not paid well. Why would one expect to get quality teachers? The fact that many are high quality is amazing to me.
Multiple posters have commented about the role of parents. I could quite accurately predict which kid's parents would show up for parent-teacher meetings.
I would argue that the US school system does a rather poor job of "(preparing) kids for life." The major problem I have is that it teaches almost nothing about finances whatsoever. Barely anything about investing, probably nothing about balancing a checkbook, doing your taxes, budgeting, etc. Finances are (IIRC) the number one cause of relationship issues in this country, and we've got plenty of those.
In "home economics" class, I learned how to make a tote bag, but not how to reattach a button. In "tech ed", I learned how to make a tic-tac-toe board, but not how to check the fluids on my car, change a washer in a faucet, or fix a light switch.
WMBC freeform/independent online radio.
The article is about 15 year olds, not college age youngsters...
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Sorry to disagree with you, but there is a place for this kind of maths. Problem is that it is not applied correctly. Problem is that you have a standardized multiple choice quiz with 12*48 =
a) -34
b) 576
c) 3.14
d) sheep
The fact that you can answer b) by applying that 12*48 ~ 10*50 puts you a point ahead of an amoebe regarding maths. And will not help you if the answers were 572, 576, 574 (and if you answered 575 you have to check how pair*pair gives an odd).
But I was tutoring EE, and was amazed at the fact that people cannot use the same reasoning when they are not given multiple choices. They would tote their calculators, and drag the constant through the equation (even if it cancels out later, and even if, for all engineering purposes it can be approximated like g=10m/s^2), and in the end arrive at the conclusion that the voltage between two points in a simple schema is 12.11V. Completely failing to understand the point that if the batery is 12V NO voltage in the schema can be grater than that. Simple approximated calculation would give them a ballpark estimate of 12V, which would be more correct. Or, what I hate even more, when they don't understand that EE deals with physical elements, with their own abberations and limitations (yes, your TI-89 shows that the voltage on that diode is 3000V, but it is long gone in the puff of blue smoke before it reaches that level).
Well, that's my pet peeve - people not using common sense.
(And for nit pickers - yes, voltage can be greater than Vcc if there is an active element, or an element with stored energy like capacitor; but that was not the case with simple Kirchhoff law problems I was trying to explain)
.... you are blissfully unaware of how laws impede free migration of workers between different countries.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
The less needed stay home. They normally are the best of the best because they don't have the need to migrate.
The ones that migrate are the *less* qualified.
It has always been like that during history with economic migration. If you are USian just ask any Mexican immigrant in which stratum of Mexican society would they belong. The rich, the prepared, the more able, stay on their country of origin. Immigration, specially of the ilegal kind, is normally a sign of depravation (educational as well).
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
you can't spell BCS without BS.
The problem with the above argument is not the lack of money in our educational system (as stated in the article blurb, we spend more than many of those who did better). Lots of neighborhoods spend money on education - the ones that need the help, however, don't. Many of the places that do poorly do so because the property owners don't have the money to pay for schools - the property is worth far less and so at the same rate of taxation it generates less money. The property is worth less because it is undesirable, and many of the reasons correlate with the people there not having any money or ways to get it. So it may not be unwillingness to spend the money that is the problem - the people who need the money don't have it, and so can't give it to the schools. Attempts to level out this disparity (at least in OH) haven't worked out very well (the OH motto - "We love education - so long as we don't have to pay for it.")
(This also neglects places like Washington, DC, where lots of money is spent but so badly that it goes for nought.)
Parents and community are more generally important - if they don't view education and achievement as valuable, then all the money in the world won't make the children think that time spent on school is worth it. As long as the parents believe that they are in a fantasyland where physical and fiscal reality cease to exist, schools will not have the ability to make children well-equipped to deal with a world that ruthlessly enforces both physical and fiscal realities. I think money is important for education, but I understand its effect on education less than those of community and parents.
Ask any teacher in Northside or Northeast ISD in San Antonio.
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Also demonstrable by the public school system in Washington, D.C. IIRC, it has the largest expenditure per student in the U.S. and one of the lowest performing school districts in the country.
-- stream of did I lock the front door consciousness
No, I did in fact mean "TO" the test. As most of the school districts in San Antonio TX are in trouble due to their low test scores, they have decided to raise their chances for funding by scrapping the normal curriculum. It certainly isn't like this in other parts of the state (witness the teacher from Houston that replied to my original statement), but we have it here now.
Oh yes, we also have that giant administrative overhead burden that most of the country has. About 5 years ago, my old school district (before I moved a bit further out of town) had a $10 million bond initiative to improve the schools in the district (8 high schools, 20+ middle schools and I forget how many elementary schools, total of about 50K students). It passed and the district proceeded to spend $9.2 million on new headquarters for the district offices. Not new buses, not new classrooms, not for teacher salaries, but new offices for the district administrative staff. The superintendent also got a salary increase to $100,000/year. All this, and lower test scores!
Maybe I was a bit quick on my criticism of the "No Child Left Behind" act. Thinking about this, I think that the "No Child Left Behind" act should have some bigger sticks that could actually remedy this type of situation (such as mandating that a certain percentage of funding be used for the actual education process, or that the superintendent use some of that self-granted salary increase to fund the education of students in the district...) but that would make sense!
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Check out some of the wonderful rants at http://professorplum.typepad.com/my_weblog/
If you're asking yourself the question "how did that happen ?", check out this book (which you can read online for free btw) :
http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/index.htm
It's an eye opening in depth investigation into what happened to american schooling in the course of the past 2 centuries.
Pretty mind blowing to find out the level of education that was to be found even in modest/rural families before the spread of compulsory centralized schooling, and how it consistently dwindled during the 20th century as each reform made it through. Enlightening also what kind of people were behind the reforms, and the ideology that drove them (fashionable philosophy from the 1900's is truly scary in that respect)
well, when citizens vote to approve a bond issue for their local board of education the feds have very little to say and have almost no leverage like they do with state government.
if I were you I would start a campaign against the crooks that are there.
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
Scroll down to the chart at the bottom.
s Figures.asp?figure=8&quest=1
http://nces.ed.gov/surveys/pisa/PISA2003Highlight
Now, I'd like an apology.
The number of people with college degrees that voted for Bush was below 30%, while the number of people with only a high school degree that voted for Bush was above 65%. Also, education does not determine whether or not someone is stupid.
TrollBridge's point is that the purpose of schools isn't to make money, it is to educate students. Forcing schools to depend on sports in order to raise funding turns them into sports team businesses, which is contrary to their original purpose and sometimes conflicts with it. Consider the example of a gambling treatment center forced to hold a lottery to generate funding. Perhaps schools should concentrate on their mission instead of polluting it with fundraising, in whatever form that takes.
The parent should have been titled "America should be like me."
22 > 4
I see your point, but I just checked and found the same definition under payed as well. It seems either is correct as far as the American Heritage Dictionary is concerned :-)