If the "designer" really wanted to create a dialog with this effort, the disingenuous little fu** would've put the players in the "boots" of the innocent children murdered.
The Columbine game will turn out exactly the same as Postal - much ado about a shitty game.
AOL has long provided business partners the ability to "white list" their domain - bypassing the SPAM filters. Now they're just charging companies to do it.
If history is any indicator, the rights to the Origin IPs (and codebase) are extremely over-valued by EA. When EA shut down Kesmai, fans tried to get the rights to Air Warrior - the price EA wanted was more than developing from the ground up would have been.
If I were in the games dev business (hey, what do you know, I am!), this would hopefully lessen my reliance on "storytelling" aspects of design and allow me to focus on "gameplay".
Shame on Fox for screwing it up like they did, but the premiere left me with no desire to see what the rest of the season was like. I don't think I'd even waste a selection getting it from Netflix at this point.
But that's just it - you didn't see the "premier", you saw the episode Fox showed first - big difference. It's like starting LotR with the Two Towers and blaming Tolkien because the story doesn't make sense.
Look at it this way; by watching Firefly (as mentioned above, showing on Sci-Fi (didn't know that, thanks)) what you'll really be doing is thumbing your noses at the marketing idiots at Fox who were sure they knew how best to "position" the show, against the wishes of the creative folks.
You must have seen the premier on Fox - like I did. I was bored senseless, turned it off and never watched again.
Until, just a few months back, I gave in to all of my geek friends telling me how amazing it is and bought the DVDs. It's amazing.
The problem with the show as I (and I assume, you) originally viewed it was that Fox showed the series out of order - the episode we saw had no context. We didn't know anything about the characters, universe, or meta-story.
Rent/Buy the DVDs and watch them in order - you'll be glad you did.
Like the output of any creative endeavor, the pyramid's base of game release quality will be a mass of retreads and insipid attempts at insight. The middle of the pyramid will contain the occasional advancement on a genre and interesting insight, and the very top of the pyramid will show us the rare flash of genius.
Dvorak is, and always has been, a professional curmudgeon.
You wouldn't describe Missile Command as a "problem that needs to be solved."
Sure I would! Missiles are falling from the sky and the cities I'm trying to protect are in danger. The problem that needs to be solved is prioritizing which missiles need to be intercepted first and, once I've (hopefully) prioritized correctly, how do I physically spin the track ball and press the buttons in order to ensure that the missiles are successfully intercepted. That's the problem (and one that, incidentally, I didn't find fun!)
The source of fun in games is not that they are problems to be dealt with any more than the souce of fun in games being that they are interactive computer programs.
That's actually my concern with the premise of the book - "Fun" is far too subjective a term to be quantified. For example, Raph has a cartoon showing himself quitting FPS' because he feels like he's 'fighting a tide' and 'inadequate'. Personally, I find that challenge to be very entertaining and get absolutely no satisfaction in the traditional RPG "my character beat your character/MOB" combat system.
However, I continue to feel that any game can be defined by the problems it presents the users. Those examples you give ("the mouse in the maze" and "the bored frenchman") are not examples of gameplay, as you point out - they are "atmosphere" and, again as you point out, can be a factor in how entertaining the game is, but they're not, in of themselves, games.
Antigrav does present problems to users - patterns to be recognized, responded to and remembered.
I think we're tangentally arguing the same side;-)
By "entertaining problem" you're now essentially defining "puzzle" as "something fun to do."
Nope, I was assuming that the word "puzzle" wasn't being specifically used to describe a single type of gameplay, but generically used to describe any problem that needed to be solved.
If you read "puzzle" to mean a rubic's cube or jigsaw like spatial problem, then the definition of 'game' will be too focused and you lose the basic thrust which is that humans are at the top of the food chain because of our problem solving abilitiy, so it makes sense that we enjoy problem solving, in the same way it makes sense that we enjoy eating (surviving) and sex (procreating).
"Games are puzzles to solve, just like everything else we encounter in life.'"
Umm....no.
Umm....yes.
In fact most MMORPGs reflect the compulsive narcessistic attitude of most young americans today accumulating hand-over-fist anything they can get their mitts onto
Virtual Worlds are not games. There may be elements of gameplay (problem solving) 'hosted' within those worlds, but you shouldn't confuse the two.
Koster was also the first to realize the value of "elder games",
Hardly - the concept, hell that exact term, was in use at Kesmai before UO launched. Multiplayer BattleTech had a fully fledged (and, imho, so far un-matched) elders game over a decade ago.
I just recieved (yesterday) the book in question, and haven't started, but I'm curious how "fun" is defined - it's one of the most subjective words in any language.
Slashdot Mirror
tell me about it
-moggy
Group of immigrants is about to cross the border - group of immigrants calls into toll free number to report activity at a different crossing point.
Seems like a little cottage industry could form - maybe they could outsource the calls to an Indian call center...
-gary
whatever you say, Mr. Carmack
-gary
If the "designer" really wanted to create a dialog with this effort, the disingenuous little fu** would've put the players in the "boots" of the innocent children murdered.
The Columbine game will turn out exactly the same as Postal - much ado about a shitty game.
-gary cooper
>>How can he know that with so little excavated?
Didn't you see Aliens Versus Predator?!?
"My engineers tell me it's a pyramid"
-gary
0wnz joo!
-gary
I will never forget the expanding white square as the piano falls...
-gary
you mean this?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?E69A41E9C
-gary
Viking farts?
-gary
> You are facing north.
> Look up.
> A piano falls on your head. GAME OVER
ASYLUM!
-gary (or was it Deathmaze 5000?)
AOL has long provided business partners the ability to "white list" their domain - bypassing the SPAM filters. Now they're just charging companies to do it.
-gary, ex-AOL product manager
If history is any indicator, the rights to the Origin IPs (and codebase) are extremely over-valued by EA. When EA shut down Kesmai, fans tried to get the rights to Air Warrior - the price EA wanted was more than developing from the ground up would have been.
-gary
If I were in the games dev business (hey, what do you know, I am!), this would hopefully lessen my reliance on "storytelling" aspects of design and allow me to focus on "gameplay".
-gary
Shame on Fox for screwing it up like they did, but the premiere left me with no desire to see what the rest of the season was like. I don't think I'd even waste a selection getting it from Netflix at this point.
But that's just it - you didn't see the "premier", you saw the episode Fox showed first - big difference. It's like starting LotR with the Two Towers and blaming Tolkien because the story doesn't make sense.
Look at it this way; by watching Firefly (as mentioned above, showing on Sci-Fi (didn't know that, thanks)) what you'll really be doing is thumbing your noses at the marketing idiots at Fox who were sure they knew how best to "position" the show, against the wishes of the creative folks.
-gary
You must have seen the premier on Fox - like I did. I was bored senseless, turned it off and never watched again.
Until, just a few months back, I gave in to all of my geek friends telling me how amazing it is and bought the DVDs. It's amazing.
The problem with the show as I (and I assume, you) originally viewed it was that Fox showed the series out of order - the episode we saw had no context. We didn't know anything about the characters, universe, or meta-story.
Rent/Buy the DVDs and watch them in order - you'll be glad you did.
-gary
hasn't hurt the book, movie or music businesses.
Like the output of any creative endeavor, the pyramid's base of game release quality will be a mass of retreads and insipid attempts at insight. The middle of the pyramid will contain the occasional advancement on a genre and interesting insight, and the very top of the pyramid will show us the rare flash of genius.
Dvorak is, and always has been, a professional curmudgeon.
-gary
You wouldn't describe Missile Command as a "problem that needs to be solved."
;-)
Sure I would! Missiles are falling from the sky and the cities I'm trying to protect are in danger. The problem that needs to be solved is prioritizing which missiles need to be intercepted first and, once I've (hopefully) prioritized correctly, how do I physically spin the track ball and press the buttons in order to ensure that the missiles are successfully intercepted. That's the problem (and one that, incidentally, I didn't find fun!)
The source of fun in games is not that they are problems to be dealt with any more than the souce of fun in games being that they are interactive computer programs.
That's actually my concern with the premise of the book - "Fun" is far too subjective a term to be quantified. For example, Raph has a cartoon showing himself quitting FPS' because he feels like he's 'fighting a tide' and 'inadequate'. Personally, I find that challenge to be very entertaining and get absolutely no satisfaction in the traditional RPG "my character beat your character/MOB" combat system.
However, I continue to feel that any game can be defined by the problems it presents the users. Those examples you give ("the mouse in the maze" and "the bored frenchman") are not examples of gameplay, as you point out - they are "atmosphere" and, again as you point out, can be a factor in how entertaining the game is, but they're not, in of themselves, games.
Antigrav does present problems to users - patterns to be recognized, responded to and remembered.
I think we're tangentally arguing the same side
-gary cooper
By "entertaining problem" you're now essentially defining "puzzle" as "something fun to do."
Nope, I was assuming that the word "puzzle" wasn't being specifically used to describe a single type of gameplay, but generically used to describe any problem that needed to be solved.
If you read "puzzle" to mean a rubic's cube or jigsaw like spatial problem, then the definition of 'game' will be too focused and you lose the basic thrust which is that humans are at the top of the food chain because of our problem solving abilitiy, so it makes sense that we enjoy problem solving, in the same way it makes sense that we enjoy eating (surviving) and sex (procreating).
-gary cooper
Many people play violent video games so that they can have fun and do things outside their normal realm of controlled behavior.
That's what sells the box. It's the game design, however, that keeps players interested and sells the sequels.
Go to GDC and you'll hear designers talking about GTA; not about whacking hookers over the head, but about it's extremely impressive game design
-gary cooper
Puzzles are slow and contemplative by nature,
You're too hung up on, and reading too much into, the word "puzzle" - replace it by "problem".
My personal definition for "game" has been 'entertaining problems'.
Does that help? By your usage, shooting skeet does not have 'puzzles' to solve, but it does present many entertaining problems
-gary cooper
"Games are puzzles to solve, just like everything else we encounter in life.'"
Umm....no.
Umm....yes.
In fact most MMORPGs reflect the compulsive narcessistic attitude of most young americans today accumulating hand-over-fist anything they can get their mitts onto
Virtual Worlds are not games. There may be elements of gameplay (problem solving) 'hosted' within those worlds, but you shouldn't confuse the two.
Don't worry, though, many designers do the same
-gary cooper
Koster was also the first to realize the value of "elder games",
Hardly - the concept, hell that exact term, was in use at Kesmai before UO launched. Multiplayer BattleTech had a fully fledged (and, imho, so far un-matched) elders game over a decade ago.
I just recieved (yesterday) the book in question, and haven't started, but I'm curious how "fun" is defined - it's one of the most subjective words in any language.
-gary cooper
It wasn't exactly a hit when he *did* direct it...
the playing field of Human Pacman overlaps with the playing field of Human Grand Theft Auto?