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A Theory of Fun for Game Design

Despite a growing interest in the field, books on game design can be jargon-filled textbooks too intimidating for the average game player. Raph Koster's A Theory of Fun for Game Design takes an entertaining look at a subject that has, in some ways, been taken too seriously by other authors. The book is thoughtful as well, providing a groundwork for a discussion of games as learning tools, art, and societal shapers. Read on for my thoughts, and some commentary from the author, on this distillation of a designer's viewpoint. A Theory of Fun for Game Design author Raph Koster pages 244 publisher Paraglyph Press rating 9 reviewer Zonk ISBN 1932111972 summary Game design as examined by a skilled craftsman, with a unique look at the larger context of games. Raph Koster speaks often on the subjects of game design and interactive narratives. A Theory of Fun for Game Design is an approachable version of the larger body of writing and speaking Koster has produced in his years of design work. Its unusual accessibility is clear as soon as you open the book: while the left-hand page page contains text and observations, the right hand page makes (sometimes snide) commentary on design via comics drawn by the author.

Mr. Koster kindly agreed to answer questions when I was preparing this review. When asked about the audience of the book, he said "The book was intended in large part as something I could give to my parents, or to other relatives, or to non-industry friends, as a way to explain what it is that my profession is all about." As such, the comics and plain-spoken writing bring design concepts into focus for readers who may not want to spend the rest of their lives on these topics.

The chapters of Theory of Fun are not organized formally, but the book seems to fall into three sections. The first section sets the stage by discussing what exactly a game is. "Games are puzzles to solve, just like everything else we encounter in life." Koster's thesis is, essentially, that games are learning puzzles. In his experience, simple games are created by children to teach themselves useful skills. More formal games have similar goals, but modern games exist almost entirely to provide the elusive substance of fun to the player. This assertion resulted in a brisk discussion on the site Terra Nova. Exactly what people want when they pick up a joystick is very much in debate even by industry professionals.

The central portion of Koster's theory ruminates on the roles games play, why games are designed the way they are, and what matters in a game. The meat of the book is here, in discussions about why gamers cast aside the ethical quandaries brought up by games like Grand Theft Auto (they're playing the game mechanics, not the fiction surrounding the mechanics) and in the observation that the destiny of all games is to become boring. An amusingly astute statement about cheaters caps off a discussion of the tendencies players have to finding the optimal solution to a game: "When a player cheats in a game, they are choosing a battlefield that is broader in context than the game itself.&quot

At the end of the midsection, the eternal discussion of games as art makes an appearance. Instead of equivocating, Mr. Koster makes his opinion very clear. "Art, to me, is just taking craft seriously. It's about communication (as I have said many times, in the book and elsewhere). Taking what we do seriously, *even if for frivolous ends,* just leads to better work. Considering what you are doing to be art tends to emphasize high standards, experimentation, expression, thoughtfulness, and discipline -- even if your goal is to make a gag-a-day newspaper strip or macrame hangings for your window."

To close his discussion on games and to provide a larger context against which to examine them, Mr. Koster steps outside the bounds of game design and makes some fairly dramatic statements about what games should be. While other media portrays the human condition almost as a matter of course, he argues, games rarely connect with the most basic aspects of our lives. To his mind, in order to truly achieve respect alongside the novel or the musical composition, games should "illuminate aspects of ourselves that we did not fully understand."

In his epilogue, Koster goes even further, arguing that -- as authors of art -- game designers should take responsibility for their creations. "I have little patience for those who hide behind the statement that 'it's just entertainment.' To deny our influence while simultaneously crowing about our financial success is at best naïve, and at worst irresponsible."

The book itself is well laid out, with the thoughtfully edited and often humorous text set amid plenty of whitespace on the right and the usually well-drawn comics on the left. The comics set the tone for the whole book, which in format resembles more of a collection of Far Side strips than it does a technical guide. The back of the book contains an extensive commentary section where offhand references and asides are explained in depth.

If you're planning on entering the field of game design, A Theory of Fun won't help you to storyboard a plot, model a texture, or develop a code base: if you're looking for the technical aspects of game design or deep academic consideration of the field, other titles will hold more for you. The intended audience of this book is quite wide, and Koster does an excellent job of making everyone feel included in the conversation that occurs between the pages. While game players and professionals new to the field alike can get a lot from what he discusses, the reader who may benefit the most from Theory of Fun is the seasoned game industry worker.

With the endless rehashing of game and design concepts currently in circulation and parent groups growing ever more shrill at the release of morally ambiguous titles, Raph Koster's book is a refreshing read. The book is an unpretentious examination of what it is that makes a game a game. He steps beyond the dehumanizing aspects of game mechanics to look at games and their designers in a broader societal context. If for no other reason that that, Theory of Fun is worth a look to read the opinion of someone who gives a damn.

You can purchase A Theory of Fun for Game Design from bn.com. Slashdot welcomes readers' book reviews -- to see your own review here, read the book review guidelines, then visit the submission page.

187 comments

  1. Yeah, but it's Raph 'SWG' Koster by Bonker · · Score: 4, Funny

    If Raph Koster is an expert on anything, as many Star Wars Galaxies players can attest to, it's making a game NOT fun.

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    1. Re:Yeah, but it's Raph 'SWG' Koster by john_anderson_ii · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I thought SWG was a lot of fun untill it gave way to marketing demand and became Jedi Wars Galaxies.

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    2. Re:Yeah, but it's Raph 'SWG' Koster by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If Raph Koster is an expert on anything, as many Star Wars Galaxies players can attest to, it's making a game NOT fun.

      Amen! does the book contain anything about how to make excuses for an empty, lifeless game like "player driven content"? 'cause that was pretty smoothe

    3. Re:Yeah, but it's Raph 'SWG' Koster by grumpygrodyguy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If Raph Koster is an expert on anything, as many Star Wars Galaxies players can attest to, it's making a game NOT fun.

      Mmmm....yes!!

      "Games are puzzles to solve, just like everything else we encounter in life.'"

      Umm....no.

      In fact most MMORPGs reflect the compulsive narcessistic attitude of most young americans today accumulating hand-over-fist anything they can get their mitts onto. At least this is why I play MMORPGs. The atmosphere, music, humor and scenery help to disuade me from needing to possess all the power in the realm, and thus provide a kind of light fantasy backdrop to my compulsive and irrepressible greed.

      It's always nice to have light humor mixed in with obsessive grinding/hoarding. These two things, and the play between them make for a successful and playable MMORPG.

      --
      The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky
    4. Re:Yeah, but it's Raph 'SWG' Koster by pHatidic · · Score: 0
      He fixed a lot of the problems UO had in the early days, and until the UO team for some reason decided to dumb itself down for newbies it was a lot of fun. I would bet the reason SWG sucked was more because of EA aiming it towards newbs who have never played a MUD or MMORPG before and less because of Koster.


      The real problem with MMORPG's though is you can only play one. After having played UO I can never imagine investing that much time in any other game again, since they are all pretty much the same. Well maybe if someone maybe a really good MMORPG in ASCII graphics I'd play it, but that doesn't seem too likely to happen soon.

    5. Re:Yeah, but it's Raph 'SWG' Koster by takitus · · Score: 1

      yeah ive quit every game he got his hands on. UO was great until they hired that fool. then the whole company went under. then for some unknown reason they hired him to make star wars as big a flop as possible. hopefully blizzard stays away from him.

      long live richard garriot!

    6. Re:Yeah, but it's Raph 'SWG' Koster by kin_korn_karn · · Score: 1

      Well maybe if someone maybe a really good MMORPG in ASCII graphics I'd play it

      You just set yourself up for a horde of unwashed MUD geeks to come along and tell you all about their sadly irrelevant pastimes.

    7. Re:Yeah, but it's Raph 'SWG' Koster by servognome · · Score: 4, Interesting

      No it wasn't fun from the beginning. Aside from the game's bugginess, there were several core design problems. I would call SWG more of an experiment than a game.
      - HAM system - an experimental alternative to the typical HP/Mana systems of most RPGs. Both the penalties of specials (using specials injured you) and the arbitrary nature of damage (rifle damage injured "Mind" not health) just made it overly complicated and unintuitive.
      - Player run economy - interesting system, which I think worked well in some respects (gave the "feel" of a real economy). Unfortunately the breakdown occurred because risk/reward system was not in place for adventuring types. If the best stuff was made by players what was the use of taking risks adventuring.
      - Housing/building system was nice, though not completely new, it was I think one of the best implementations, though the downside was extreme lag in certain locations
      - Skill Structure - bland, and not particularly valuable. Getting higher skills in some respects would give you access to technology that you wouldn't use because there were better lower level alternatives
      - Mentorship - interesting, but not particularly valuable, and later became more of an annoyance.
      - Entertainers - once again interesting, but not engaging in terms of gameplay.
      I think I could have lived with the bugs, in the end I did not like the game due to intentional failures of design decisions. Overall it is something that could be learned from for future game designs. (ie. Discovering that many people wanted to be entertainers, so now how can you make an entertainer class engaging)

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    8. Re:Yeah, but it's Raph 'SWG' Koster by tlhIngan · · Score: 1

      "Games are puzzles to solve, just like everything else we encounter in life.'"

      Umm....no.

      In fact most MMORPGs reflect the compulsive narcessistic attitude of most young americans today accumulating hand-over-fist anything they can get their mitts onto. At least this is why I play MMORPGs. The atmosphere, music, humor and scenery help to disuade me from needing to possess all the power in the realm, and thus provide a kind of light fantasy backdrop to my compulsive and irrepressible greed.


      Uh, you just contradicted your statement right there. The "Puzzle to Solve" in this case is "How do I acquire as much in-game wealth and property to satisfy my insatiable greed without mindlessly acquiring it?" (The humor and fantasy make your imagination and other thought parts of the brain work - maybe not a lot, but at least better than running a bot).

      The "Puzzle to Solve" in a game isn't necessarily the obvious goal of the game (kill the bad guy). In fact, it's likely different for every person. One person it might be "I'm frustrated, and I want to kill people" ("How do I kill people legally?"). Another might be "I want some mindless violence to take my mind off the real world". Or maybe, "I feel like saving the world today." (FPS type of goals)

      Sometimes the puzzle is "I want a nice fantasy world where I can fully immerse myself attempting to do [good|evil|etc]" (e.g., an RPG).

    9. Re:Yeah, but it's Raph 'SWG' Koster by pHatidic · · Score: 1

      MUDs are text based except for a few that have ASCII graphics for outdoor maps. What I am talking about is something with ASCII graphics a la Nethack. And don't say nethack is only for old people because I'm only twenty.

    10. Re:Yeah, but it's Raph 'SWG' Koster by jefmes · · Score: 1

      Say what you will, but a large part of Galaxies' continued existance and continuing improvements (there's a ton of good that's just come into the game and is coming in the over the next several months) are due to the open-ended sandbox view that Raph tried to maintain in creating Galaxies. It's not to everyone's tastes due the some of the complexities in the game, but it's evolving into what I still think will be the best MMOG out there.

      And yes, I'm a SWG fanboy, I have been from the beginning - only because I believe in the vision for the game and the potential of its systems.

    11. Re:Yeah, but it's Raph 'SWG' Koster by GROOFY · · Score: 0

      Yeh I was singing the same tune five months ago, even when I had all my stuff disappear via bugs, had aspects of the game change regularly, rendering previous work completely useless, and generally not having the "live-like-fucking-han-solo" experience I was expecting. Not to mention the horrible "grind", the lack of content in places where it should be most, boring randomly generated missions, and the imfamous economy, which looks good on paper but in actuality it's a turd sandwich because all of your stuff is completely fucking worthless. Long story short - SWG is the worst MMO ever made. EVER. But SOE has said before they might make another SWG with a different subtitle. If that's done by people who actually know what's fun, then I'll look into it.

    12. Re:Yeah, but it's Raph 'SWG' Koster by Alkaiser · · Score: 1

      Wow. He's got all this time to write books. Probably because he's relying on all this "player driven content" to do all his work for him.

      This guy fast climbing up the chart of people in the game industry I loathe most. Already made my top 5.

      --
      Netjak.com independent reviews of domestic & import video ga
    13. Re:Yeah, but it's Raph 'SWG' Koster by RaphKoster · · Score: 2, Informative

      I was on UO from the beginning, so if you liked UO early on, that was me. I left before UO: Renaissance though.

    14. Re:Yeah, but it's Raph 'SWG' Koster by zeno_2 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I bought UO a few weeks after it came out. First online game I played really, and the first few weeks just amazed me. The first few years, I remember them doing a lot of quests involving seers. They were people who worked for them, and role-played a person who would have a big quest ready for players to embark on, for those who haven't played it before.

      I remember a big quest that was over the course of a few months, and at the end, I was picked to stand atop this tower at the maze, and hold one of the staves of the elements. When we brought them all together (1 other player and 2 seers if I remember correctly) it spawned a *ton* of elementals all around the maze. Later on they took the staff I held, and put it in the moonglow museum with a tooltip that said, "Staff of Air, Held by Cloud" or something to that effect.

      I played on the sonoma server, which was also the home of Oasis, and Fight Night. Fight night was this "event" i guess you could call it, where a bunch of people had duels in the desert (Oasis) on friday nights. This got so popular, that they were able to get the people who ran the game to build arena's and special buildings and such. It was also big fun when the pks would teleport in and try to distrupt things. We'd have the biggest battles.

      Those first few years were a blast. I'm not sure if it's because I was new to the whole mmorpg thing, or because it was just an excellent game. When I think about it, it's probably the latter. I quit a bit after they split the world into 2 realms. I did come back a few times though with new accounts, but it just isn't like it was. Since then i've played EQ, DAoC, SWG, AC, and currently WoW, and none of them are as fun as UO was when it first came out, IMO.

    15. Re:Yeah, but it's Raph 'SWG' Koster by cgenman · · Score: 1

      Uh, you just contradicted your statement right there. The "Puzzle to Solve" in this case is "How do I acquire as much in-game wealth and property to satisfy my insatiable greed without mindlessly acquiring it?"

      But while the game may contain puzzles, and it may even be said to be puzzle-like, the fun isn't puzzles. Dance Dance Revolution is a terrible lot of fun, but it contains no hidden or puzzle-like information at all. Tennis contains very little that can be considered puzzle-like. Neither does skeet shooting, or Quake 3.

      Puzzles are slow and contemplative by nature, whereas most videogames are simply not. I've seen this happen with other people in the industry... If to you everything is a puzzle to be solved, you won't "get" what is enjoyable about a battle of wits at Street Fighter. You won't be able to reproduce the joys of million-mile an hour carnage in Burnout 3. Even though it was slower and more contemplative, Metroid Prime was fun for the exploration aspect... keeping tons of low-hanging fruit around for you to pluck the moment you found a bigger stick. Katamari Damacy also had basically no puzzle aspect to it, but it was fun because you were acquiring rediculous things and growing bigger and bigger (comment on society, perhaps?).

      Grandparent is right. If Koster actually feels that all games are puzzle games, he will be missing out on ways in which games can be made fun. Whenever in the past I've sat down and tried to create grand unified theories of why games are fun, I've always walked into work to find dozens of new and fun things that I left out. Why is Animal Crossing so rediculously fun? Why is Diablo? Is it building something? Watching something grow? Solving puzzles? Physical reactions? All of the above?

      That's not to say that many games that are fun can't be said to be puzzles, if you force it into that mold. But puzzles are not the source of fun in most of these games. There are as many ways to make a game fun as there are ways to have fun. If the core of your game design practice breaks down into just making puzzles, you are in trouble.

    16. Re:Yeah, but it's Raph 'SWG' Koster by DrMrLordX · · Score: 2, Informative

      While I'll agree that avoiding Koster-tainted games is wise, I must point out that Garriot is a bit of a nut. And, unless you want someone writing a text parser for your game, he won't contribute much to its development, either. You CAN sell him property on the moon, however. Maybe he'll buy the Mars rovers next?

    17. Re:Yeah, but it's Raph 'SWG' Koster by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem is that you can't translate Nethack into a MMORPG -- with or without eye candy -- Nethack in real time just does not work.

    18. Re:Yeah, but it's Raph 'SWG' Koster by mynameisnotnick · · Score: 1

      "Games are puzzles to solve, just like everything else we encounter in life.'"

      Umm....no.


      Umm....yes.

      In fact most MMORPGs reflect the compulsive narcessistic attitude of most young americans today accumulating hand-over-fist anything they can get their mitts onto

      Virtual Worlds are not games. There may be elements of gameplay (problem solving) 'hosted' within those worlds, but you shouldn't confuse the two.

      Don't worry, though, many designers do the same

      -gary cooper

    19. Re:Yeah, but it's Raph 'SWG' Koster by mynameisnotnick · · Score: 1

      Puzzles are slow and contemplative by nature,

      You're too hung up on, and reading too much into, the word "puzzle" - replace it by "problem".

      My personal definition for "game" has been 'entertaining problems'.

      Does that help? By your usage, shooting skeet does not have 'puzzles' to solve, but it does present many entertaining problems

      -gary cooper

    20. Re:Yeah, but it's Raph 'SWG' Koster by cgenman · · Score: 1

      By "entertaining problem" you're now essentially defining "puzzle" as "something fun to do." This is not a puzzle. And unfortunately most of the people in the industry that I've met that use the word puzzle do mean puzzle, and this informs all of the design decisions they make.

      Reading other reviews os the book, I don't think Koster meant puzzle. He did say that things that are fun will be fun outside of a graphical or cultural context, an assertion that I find overly reductionist. Zelda, for example, is all about culture in subtle ways.

      And where is all of this financial success he thinks we're crowning on about? Can I have some of this financial success?

    21. Re:Yeah, but it's Raph 'SWG' Koster by mynameisnotnick · · Score: 1

      By "entertaining problem" you're now essentially defining "puzzle" as "something fun to do."

      Nope, I was assuming that the word "puzzle" wasn't being specifically used to describe a single type of gameplay, but generically used to describe any problem that needed to be solved.

      If you read "puzzle" to mean a rubic's cube or jigsaw like spatial problem, then the definition of 'game' will be too focused and you lose the basic thrust which is that humans are at the top of the food chain because of our problem solving abilitiy, so it makes sense that we enjoy problem solving, in the same way it makes sense that we enjoy eating (surviving) and sex (procreating).

      -gary cooper

    22. Re:Yeah, but it's Raph 'SWG' Koster by cgenman · · Score: 1

      But you see, there it goes again. Not all games are problems to be solved, and a lot of the fun of games comes from things that are incidental to the gameplay itself. I was just playing through The Wind Waker (Yeah, yeah, I need to get caught up. It was crunch!) and got to a point where you have to wander through a maze. While wandering through the maze I came across a cute little mouse who twitched it's nose in a sadistic fashion, yanked on a bell tied to a red ribbon, and caused me to fall out of the maze and back onto the beach. It was terribly entertaining, and really "made" the maze. But it was irrelevant to the maze itself. The fun there didn't come from anything that could even be stretched to be considered "puzzle". On that same island there is a game you can play, where the host (a bored frenchman) keeps holding cutouts of paintings in front of his face to overact different characters. Again, it has nothing to do with the "gameplay," but it does fall in the lap of the game designer and it is terribly entertaining.

      The last game that I've shipped, [PLUG] Eyetoy:Antigrav, [/PLUG] was fun because it was visceral. We spent a lot of effort getting the patterns of targets just right to create different feelings in the player. The patterns themselves were not problems to be solved... they were straightforward bits of arm movement that had to be recognized, responded to, and remembered. But the overall sensation was satisfying and enjoyable. Even the general steering and navigation was a lot more fun because the players were viscerally involved, despite their relative simplicity.

      Again, look at the assumptions in your language. "A problem to be solved." Solving implies intellectual pursuit. You wouldn't describe a pile of laundry to be put away as a problem to be "solved." You wouldn't describe Missile Command as a "problem that needs to be solved." The intellectual pursuit of gaming is just one of the ways of engaging the player. There are a lot more out there, and as many of them as you can find should be in your bag of tricks.

      I'm reacting as strongly as I am because there are so many great game designers that get lured down the easy path of considering the source of fun and good game design to be about puzzles or "things to be solved," which it's really not. It's almost as much of a mantra as "the free market will solve everything," and it is about as useful. The source of fun in games is not that they are problems to be dealt with any more than the souce of fun in games being that they are interactive computer programs. While they may be technically correct, neither is at all helpful in making a great game.

    23. Re:Yeah, but it's Raph 'SWG' Koster by mynameisnotnick · · Score: 1

      You wouldn't describe Missile Command as a "problem that needs to be solved."

      Sure I would! Missiles are falling from the sky and the cities I'm trying to protect are in danger. The problem that needs to be solved is prioritizing which missiles need to be intercepted first and, once I've (hopefully) prioritized correctly, how do I physically spin the track ball and press the buttons in order to ensure that the missiles are successfully intercepted. That's the problem (and one that, incidentally, I didn't find fun!)

      The source of fun in games is not that they are problems to be dealt with any more than the souce of fun in games being that they are interactive computer programs.

      That's actually my concern with the premise of the book - "Fun" is far too subjective a term to be quantified. For example, Raph has a cartoon showing himself quitting FPS' because he feels like he's 'fighting a tide' and 'inadequate'. Personally, I find that challenge to be very entertaining and get absolutely no satisfaction in the traditional RPG "my character beat your character/MOB" combat system.

      However, I continue to feel that any game can be defined by the problems it presents the users. Those examples you give ("the mouse in the maze" and "the bored frenchman") are not examples of gameplay, as you point out - they are "atmosphere" and, again as you point out, can be a factor in how entertaining the game is, but they're not, in of themselves, games.

      Antigrav does present problems to users - patterns to be recognized, responded to and remembered.

      I think we're tangentally arguing the same side ;-)

      -gary cooper

    24. Re:Yeah, but it's Raph 'SWG' Koster by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      An attitude may be neither compulsive nor narcissistic, and narcissism may not be compulsive. None of those three words fit together, meaning that at maximum you know what one of them means.

    25. Re:Yeah, but it's Raph 'SWG' Koster by Zhirem · · Score: 1

      Out of idle curiosity, what is your opinion on SWG? Would you call it a success as far as:

      1.) Personally?
      2.) Financially?
      3.) Culturally?
      4.) None of the above.

      I mean, how do you feel about it now, (if I am to understand it correctly, in that you no longer have anything to do with it...)?

      - Z

    26. Re:Yeah, but it's Raph 'SWG' Koster by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When Koster says "puzzle" he does not mean the big jigsaw puzzles hidden away in our closets, he means a scenario where you must accomplish some task that the game sets for you, or that you set for yourself. Sometimes it's simple and obvious, (defeat the enemy or something), other times you actually have a choice as to what you do. Perhaps you are playing a MMORPG and trying to be a good guy, but you do something that would make you the bad guy. Looks like you didn't solve that puzzle quite right, eh? In an FPS, it would simply be to meet the objectives of the level without dying, but maybe you also want to keep your AI team-mates alive, also. Even in a fast-paced racing game, there is a "puzzle" which is simply to get to the finish line first. Koster uses "puzzle" very loosely in this text.

  2. Thank you for that lovely review..... by WordODD · · Score: 4, Funny

    But now let us rejoin the gaming world reality with your host EA!!!

    --
    Please do not let scientific accuracy interfere with the intended humourous/interesting/insightful value of this comment
  3. An introduction! by reformist · · Score: 4, Insightful

    All staff working on a game product should have training like this book gives; a designer's perspective should pervade the entire project, and the concept and goal of "fun" needs to be in every part of the product. Often, the goal of 1/2 the team is making the interface or some part of the game compatible with how the game engine does rendering to ensure we get an extra 5 fps here and there.

    1. Re:An introduction! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nothing like getting advice from the talentless, hangerons in the game development biz.

    2. Re:An introduction! by Surt · · Score: 1

      They should, but not this book. Koster is a game design disaster.

      And for the most part, game designers do plenty of reading and thinking about what is fun, at least at some of the better game design houses. Theory of game design discussions and reading are very popular.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    3. Re:An introduction! by cgenman · · Score: 1

      I'm not convinced. Part of the engineering team's goal is to be the best darned engineered software it can be. Part of the Art team's goal is that it can be the most beautiful, fluidly moving software ever. I fail to see the advantage of a programmer pondering "is this fun?" while changing a lookup table to a hash table in an attempt gain an extra 3fps on the 60fps goal. An artist trying to get the IK correct for a character opening a door may at some point ask "is this fun?" but that doesn't really help them do what they're trying to do. Yes, all programmers should be game designers who have other things to focus on, but basically all of them are. Same thing with the artists. But on day-to-day tasks, you really do have to lose big picture status so that you can figure out how to regigger a menu system to reduce the number of clicks required to enter a game. Or temporarily set aside the concept of fun when trying to paint a progressive skybox.

      Don't knock engine work. A clean, well constructed engine is worth it's weight in gold, and will allow you to polish and extend a game until it's fun, in ways that otherwise wouldn't be possible.

      Let's not forget that the ultimate example of "Design is King" was Daikatana. It had design... and no art, engineering, or project oversight.

  4. heh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "When a player cheats in a game, they are choosing a battlefield that is broader in context than the game itself."

    I believe the proper terms are 'hacker' or 'n0ob'.

  5. Hejh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Plug your game into this equation:

    #(complex game equation) game.c
    Your game sucks, please try again.
    #(complex game equation) game2.c
    Your game sucks, please try again ...
    #(complex game equation) game4465.c
    This game might sell 10,000 copies. Might.

  6. What about game playing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I know game playing is surely fun. You don't need a book to tell you so.

    1. Re:What about game playing by plover · · Score: 1
      I know game playing is surely fun. You don't need a book to tell you so.

      -1, Wrong.

      Proof? Daikatana.

      Just because someone writes and/or sells a game doesn't mean it's going to be fun. Books like this need to exist, and will hopefully help alleged "games" like Daikatana from getting as far as they do.

      --
      John
    2. Re:What about game playing by cirby · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The problem is that too many people who try to design games get really, really serious about "doing it right" while ignoring playability. Having an "accurate" game or a fast-playing one isn't nearly as important as the replay urge. Look at the recent re-release of classic games (fer chrissake, they're putting out Atari 2600 systems again!).

      Playtesting is deeply important, and if your testers aren't finishing their sessions with a lot of "that's a lot of fun," you need to start again.

      Every game-design disaster I've seen has been easy to predict well in advance.

    3. Re:What about game playing by bonch · · Score: 1

      Exactly. I don't need my games to be realistic, I just want them to be representative. Doom 1 wasn't actually realistic; it just felt like it.

  7. Nice, but not necessary. by NashCarey · · Score: 2, Interesting

    As a novice game creator I must say that I have yet to read a book and feel I am doing fine thus far. I created http://ruaware.org/ AWARE and even had an article published in the NY Times (nothing on /. I am afraid) as a review in theory. The game I created was successful enough to even warrant a sequel.

    I specialize in Alternate Reality Gaming and the games are much more cerebral than most, so when Dave Szulborski wrote "This Is Not A Game" (seen at http://www.immersivegaming.com/) not many had anything to complain about. Our players tend to like an intellectual challenge.

    Yet, I can imagine that many 13-15 year old DOOM players may have their head spin when discussing game theory.

    1. Re:Nice, but not necessary. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow, that's great. I don't think I've ever seen that much masturbatory self-promoting in the one comment for quite some time. The FPS player flame was also a nice touch.

      How about you do the gene pool a favour and go fuck yourself?

    2. Re:Nice, but not necessary. by RootsLINUX · · Score: 2, Informative

      I have my own game project Hero of Allacrost and I also feel I'm also in no need of a text. Although I would lie if I said I haven't read one. When I was much younger (late teens) I bought a game programming book but it was just a bunch of quotes from game dev gurus, and made for very little of a learning experience. I also bought Programming Linux Games thinking there might be some cool tricks in there, but it covered little else of what I already knew and the SDL code given in there is hardly better than the SDL documentation/wiki already available.

      I feel that the reason the majority of game projects out there fail is because you have your over-excited teenagers who just played Doom 3/Half-Life 2/World of Warcraft and somehow get the idea that it's easy to make a FPS that pushes the technology envelope, or that MMORPGs are simple games to create. I believe the secondary factors are: lack of motivation, poor leadership, and unrealisitic goals/expectations.

      --
      Hero of Allacrost, a FOSS RPG for *NIX/*BSD/OS X/Win
    3. Re:Nice, but not necessary. by Hatta · · Score: 1

      You really need to provide a link past the flash intro for those of us who don't use flash. I got past with google, and I couldn't find anything on the system requirements or screenshots or anything that indicated that I might want to, or even could play this game. Not to flame, just trying to offer constructive criticism.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    4. Re:Nice, but not necessary. by Rinzai · · Score: 3, Informative

      Well, you really need to fix that scripting bug in your startup page. I just spent two minutes doing nothing but saying to the debugger than I didn't want to debug line 35 where menuitem1.thediv isn't an object in the what.php page. Also that "object required" in line 20 thing is kind of annoying. I think the ability to fully debug a website before targeting thousands of potential visitors to it might delineate the difference between a novice and a pro. But that's just me--your mileage may vary.

    5. Re:Nice, but not necessary. by NashCarey · · Score: 1

      Hatti, thanks! I think you are right about that. I need to do something which will give the same effect outside of flash, but it is just MUCH more difficult to get an alternative. I will have to force myself out of my creative slump for that. /me gets ready.

    6. Re:Nice, but not necessary. by RootsLINUX · · Score: 1

      I was trying to provide credibility, not self-promote. What I said sounds a lot better from a guy who has (at least to a limited degree) "been there, done that", rather than just some random opinion from someone who has never even attempted game design. So I'm sorry you misinterpreted my intentions. I can't speak for him, but I imagine the poster above me used his project to justify what he said as well.

      Now if I really wanted to self-promote, I would have said something like "heY guyz check out teh my nu game!!111one". Maybe next time you should think of the context of the dialogue before you jump to a rash conclusion.

      --
      Hero of Allacrost, a FOSS RPG for *NIX/*BSD/OS X/Win
    7. Re:Nice, but not necessary. by DJCF · · Score: 1

      That looks seriously sweet. I don't have any experiance with ... umm.. ARGs, but is it US-only?

      Daniel

    8. Re:Nice, but not necessary. by Kiryat+Malachi · · Score: 1

      Provide credibility for what?

      Your pointless statement that "I don't think I need to read a book about it!"?

      While your games may or may not be fun (I may or may not check them out), don't try to claim you weren't self-promoting. The only kind of prostitution anyone should have a problem with is the kind that isn't honest about it.

      --

      ---
      Mod me down, you fucking twits. Go ahead. I dare you.
      (I read with sigs off.)
    9. Re:Nice, but not necessary. by Kiryat+Malachi · · Score: 1

      Game theory has a very, very specific meaning which only rarely has anything to do with game design. Please use "game design" to refer to what you do, so Borel, von Neumann, Morgenstern, and the other game theory types can stop rolling over in their graves and/or beds.

      --

      ---
      Mod me down, you fucking twits. Go ahead. I dare you.
      (I read with sigs off.)
    10. Re:Nice, but not necessary. by azyuroth · · Score: 1

      I think he meant an HTML link to skip it.

      That way, if someone goes there using links or just doesn't have a flash player installed, can still get to the meat of it.

    11. Re:Nice, but not necessary. by stonecypher · · Score: 1

      For being much more cerebral than most games, you sure have a fantastic control of the English language. On the front page alone I count twenty seven grammar errors, three conjugational errors, two spelling errors, and seven misused words. Don't trumpet yourself until you've learned the song, please; you're no more cerebral than the other ten dozen slashdotters which think themselves the gaming world's next Thomas Pynchon.

      Oh, and a hint: PUTTING some various WORDS in all CAPITALS for no APPARENT reason is TACKY. Stop doing IT.

      --
      StoneCypher is Full of BS
  8. easy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Fun is when I win!

  9. game design books by duckpoopy · · Score: 3, Insightful

    aren't written for gamers. They are for gamne designers. Just because you like driving, that doesn't mean you can design a car, does it?

    --
    word.
    1. Re:game design books by Antonymous+Flower · · Score: 1

      Every gamer has played a game and said, "it would be so cool if..." and their buds go "Affirmative, roger." Just as every car owner has said, "it would be so cool if..." It is the job of the designer to come up with these ideas, and users of the product are among the best voices for new design ideas. Your average joe can't use technical knowledge to put their ideas into technical form, though. That is the job of engineers or developers.

  10. SWG? by Tackhead · · Score: 5, Funny
    > Raph Koster's A Theory of Fun for Game Desi

    --Bwaaaahaha*cough, splutter*, oh, God. No more. *wheeze* Make it stop. You're killin' me. Can't read another line.

    Raph Koster, the man most directly associated with shitting out Star Wars Galaxies from between his Goatse-like buttcheeks, is lecturing us on what makes a fun game.

    And for our next articles, an interview with the guy who invented the Edsel on his new book about his theory of automotive design, to be followed up by the guy who invented the :Cue:Cat about his theory of digital convergence, Jack Valenti's Theory of Digital Rights, George W. Bush's theory of fiscal conservatism, and a book on portfolio management theory co-authored by FDR and Charles Ponzi.

    Sheesh.

    1. Re:SWG? by Bonker · · Score: 1

      Mod this guy up. He's not trolling. Most of the people who left Star Wars Galaxies before the last expansion did so because of Koster's decisions to try to preserve 'fun'.

      This guy is associated with fun like Dick Cheyney is associated with gay and lesbian tolerance... only by indirect association and then as a bad example.

      --
      The next Slashdot story will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush and slashdot the links early!
    2. Re:SWG? by Tackhead · · Score: 1
      > [Raph Koster] is associated with fun like Dick Cheyney is associated with gay and lesbian tolerance... only by indirect association and then as a bad example.

      More to the point -- Raph Koster has a pretty good theory of fun. But SWG (from beta to present day) bears no resemblance to that theory in any way, shape, or form. It's sorta the MMORPG proof by example that the difference between theory and practice is always bigger in practice than in theory.

    3. Re:SWG? by JollyFinn · · Score: 1

      You forgot something really important that everyone knows.
      Bill Gates and free software revolution.
      Richard Stallman and The benefits of creating propetiary software.

      Okay not everyone, but most certainly all slashdotters. GWB was onlyone on your list that I've recognized.

      --
      Emacs is good operating system, but it has one flaw: Its text editor could be better.
    4. Re:SWG? by stonecypher · · Score: 1

      After that string of jabs, I almost expected to see the new Quaker rebranded Princess Amidala microwavable breakfast line, available in sizes ranging from single serving to 38" waist.

      Hey, shut up, I've never made a NPHG joke. I get to. It's been long enough.

      --
      StoneCypher is Full of BS
  11. Who is this guy? by hexi · · Score: 2, Informative

    Well the answer is here: http://mobygames.com/developer/sheet/view/develope rId=19434/

    1. Re:Who is this guy? by Verrou · · Score: 2, Informative

      perhaps you mean: http://mobygames.com/developer/sheet/view/develope rId=19434/

      --
      If changing our world is playing God, it is just one more way in which God made us in His image. -Aubrey de Grey
    2. Re:Who is this guy? by Viking+Coder · · Score: 2, Funny

      perhaps both of you mean: Rap Sheet - Person : Raph Koster?

      --
      Education is the silver bullet.
  12. It takes patience... by AsmCoder8088 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    No one, regardless of their enthusiam for games, can just sit down and start writing games after reading a single book. While this one may enlighten readers about general game design, it certainly will not provide them with all the knowledge they'll need to create the kind of games that Average Joe will want. To be a successful game programmer, to have to feel passionate about what you are doing. If you can read some books on C/C++, and then work your way up to becoming familiar with the Windows API set and then eventually on to DirectDraw or OpenGL, then perhaps you will be able to write a mediocre game. But it takes patience, and certainly a great deal of interest in the field itself.

    1. Re:It takes patience... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Whoa, Nelly. You seem to be thinking that game design has something to do with programming, specifically Windows programming.

      While some game designers are programmers, for example Chris Crawford or Sid Meier, there are just scads of designers that don't program (at least not professionaly). Jim Dunnigan, Marc Miller, Frank Chadwick, Richard Garfield, Reiner Knizia, Lou Zocchi, Al Leonardi, Gary Gygax ... just the ones that come to mind and I'm not into the personalities.

      Computer game design is a large and important field in game design, but it is just a part.

    2. Re:It takes patience... by Lemmy+Caution · · Score: 1

      A game designer may not even know how to program at all. Those are completely different jobs.

      Miyammoto doesn't code. Will Wright knew how to do some coding, but he doesn't really do it now and hasn't for a long time. If you want to learn how to design games, study games themselves. Maybe learn enough about software engineering to learn a few of the processes that actually translate over - many do not, because game dev is not like other software dev. Warren Specter doesn't code at all.

      The best game designers in the world have come from backgrounds as diverse as sculpture, cinema, art, industrial engineering, mechanical engineering, and literature. Some, like Peter Molyneaux, come from a traditional CS background, but they are the exception.

    3. Re:It takes patience... by stonecypher · · Score: 1

      Oh, don't be ridiculous. That's like saying that nobody can sit down and start plotting a rocket path after reading a book on physics, because first they have to find out what air is, and then how to use a pencil, and then what direction up goes. The book isn't "every step you've ever fucking needed to write a game starting from learning to breathe." A calculus book doesn't cover arithmetic, an engineering book doesn't cover mechanics, a pointillism book doesn't cover paint blending, and there's no reason on earth that a book about game design should have to think about programming or APIs.

      --
      StoneCypher is Full of BS
  13. Wow by Laser+Lou · · Score: 0

    The review is nearly as long as the book.

    --
    No data, no cry
  14. Ralph Koster? No thanks. by psoriac · · Score: 4, Informative

    This is the man who many would argue ruined Ultima Online and then went on to helm the disaster that is Star Wars Galaxies. The same man who, on his personal website, proclaimed that when it comes to design, the player (customer) is wrong and should be ignored. Now he's releasing a book? I'll pass.

    --
    I browse Slashdot at +3, Funny
    1. Re:Ralph Koster? No thanks. by Omestes · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yeah, I'll agree with your former points, that this man blows in practice as a designer. But as for the second point it may have some modicum (or more, I dare say) of validity.

      For the most part the public doesn't actually know what is good for them. Most people want what their familiar with, and cannot think of that which is novel. If I create a novel interface, I should disreguard it because it's not what people want, without exposure? How many of the unwashed do you know of who have any knowledge of game or interface design, ergonomics? Not many. Good, then leave it up to the experts.

      Ahem. Plato was right.

      --
      A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
    2. Re:Ralph Koster? No thanks. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He's right.

      Proof:

      If people knew what was good for them they wouldn't have re-elected Bush.

    3. Re:Ralph Koster? No thanks. by cgenman · · Score: 1

      I don't know if I would consider interface elements the right way of making your point, as if it is unfamiliar to the player it will be difficult to use. However, if you look at the fan boards for any major game, you will see thousands of good examples. People wanting to add RPG elements to Quake, or who want Worms in real-time, or who want grossly unbalancing weapons, powers, etc. The best example of a fan-designed game would have to be Masters of Orion 3, a game that certain people assure me is fun to play but after several hours with it I still hadn't figured out how to build a ship, it was so buried in unnecessary options.

      The fans are great. I love the fans. And a few of them have great, implementable ideas. Maybe I'm just jaded, but most of the time they suggest things that are either grossly out of scope, is for a different style of game, or which has already been shot down in a discussion you have had internally and they are not privy to. In other words, fan suggestions follow a 90 / 9 / 1 rule, where 90% are just impossible, 9% are good but have already been discussed, and 1% ought to be implemented right now but drowned in the other 99%.

      When dealing with any fan-suggestions, first try to figure out what it is they want, and why it is they suggested the thing that they suggested. Knowing what they want and trying to address that is far more important to a team than trying to implement everyone's suggestions.

    4. Re:Ralph Koster? No thanks. by stonecypher · · Score: 1

      For the most part the public doesn't actually know what is good for them.

      This is the arrogance which has led to the stagnation in current gaming, coupled with the lack of compelling new game mechanics. Watch a five year old kid for an hour and you've got two new games.

      For the most part the public may not know what's good for them, but neither do you. You may make your borderline ecumenical diatribes about the ignorance of the public on your way out the door, please; for all the complaining you're doing about the book's author, you've done a hell of a lot less.

      Armchair quarterbacks can't throw. When you release three new game mechanics, you may speak about the public's general ignorance. For now, all you're doing is displaying your own.

      --
      StoneCypher is Full of BS
  15. It's simple, really... by Tancred · · Score: 0

    If a game's pop culture importance is graphed on the horizontal axis and the artfulness of its execution is plotted on the vertical axis, then the total area shows how fun the game is.

    For instance, a Star Wars MMORPG may score average on the horizontal but poorly on the vertical due to lack of combat. A Family Guy game on the other hand, may score very high on the horizontal as well as high on the vertical due to a collector's edition version that comes with some of the same stuff the show's writers are on while writing, thereby revealing the game to be truly fun.

    1. Re:It's simple, really... by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      If a game's pop culture importance is graphed on the horizontal axis and the artfulness of its execution is plotted on the vertical axis, then the total area shows how fun the game is.

      Gosh that sounds really cool. It even makes sense, in a way. There's only one problem - how to determine "pop culture importance" and "artfulness of execution" in an objective manner?

      Not everyone likes the same thing. So fun for you is not the same as fun for me - it's subjective. Therefore you will never be able to "measure" fun.

      Oh - let's equate fun to the number of sales. Who says the game is fun because a lot of people buy it? How do you know they still play it, etc?

      For me, fun is an open ended infinately replayable game - like chess, or like some of the OLD PC games that we used to have (thank god some are coming back). Other people like linear twitch games. Heck my definition of fun can even change depending on what mood I am in. I've played a few FPS games too, and had "fun".

      You will never be able to measure THAT though.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    2. Re:It's simple, really... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Koster's theory may in fact be completely stupid, as you are suggesting, but that does not mean we should not try to understand games. Where would we be if we continued to think, "art is thinking in images," and ignore Shklovsky or Wallace Martin?

      The only problem would be to take Koster's book as Dei Verbum and ignore your own thoughts, which it seems to be the opposite as this book has spawned more discussion than just accepting what he says, as Zonk's review seems to imply we should.

    3. Re:It's simple, really... by Viking+Coder · · Score: 1

      *spits soda*

      Hilarious.

      --
      Education is the silver bullet.
    4. Re:It's simple, really... by GROOFY · · Score: 0

      Now, please, rip this page out of Slashdot. Yes, you heard me, rip. it. out.

    5. Re:It's simple, really... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If a game's pop culture importance is graphed on the horizontal axis and the artfulness of its execution is plotted on the vertical axis, then the total area shows how fun the game is.

      This does not, in any way, explain Mr. Do!

    6. Re:It's simple, really... by stonecypher · · Score: 1

      A Family Guy game on the other hand, may score very high on the horizontal as well as high on the vertical due to a collector's edition version that comes with some of the same stuff the show's writers are on while writing, thereby revealing the game to be truly fun.

      I get the impression you've never played a video game derived from a TV show before. When you're willing to use more meaningful descriptions than a cheesy attempt to graph importance based on two relatively minor characteristics of a game, let us know; there's a hell of a lot more to fun than quality of execution multiplied by how on television it's been.

      Think I'm wrong? Try playing the Simpsons wrestling game; that show has more cultural clout than Family Guy ever will, the quality of execution of the game was stellar, and the game still sucks. Got a review that says otherwise? So do I, by the fistful; you still don't see the game flying off the shelves, be they for purchase or for rental. That's not because people forgot about it, and it's not because there was a lack of advertisement (in fact, that was one of the first games with a real television marketing campaign.) It's because the game isn't fun, because wrestling fans as a demographic aren't interested in any of the characters except occasionally Homer or Bart, and because the voice clips get extremely old extremely quickly. You could take a current successful wrestling game, skin it as The Simpsons, and it would still suck, even though the actual underlying game mechanics haven't changed.

      It never ceases to amaze me how many people believe that their favorite cartoon is going to somehow magically translate into a great game. Don't get me wrong: I love Stewie as much as you do. I'm not coming down on Family Guy.

      There just isn't a game there.

      --
      StoneCypher is Full of BS
    7. Re:It's simple, really... by brandonY · · Score: 1

      Why is everybody dissing Tancred's post? You all claim to be geeks and can't see a wonderful allusion when you're smacked in the face with it. I for one give you mad props, Tancred. The rest of you losers go watch Dead Poet's Society.

  16. Raph Koster by pHatidic · · Score: 1

    Back when Raph Koster was the lead of the UO live team he published an infamous list of rules for all MMORPG's. Koster is probably the smartest guy in the MMORPG world, so it's great that he finally wrote a book. My only gripe is that I feel like everyone has a book these days, and that you have to read their book first before you talk to them. Does anyone else feel this way?

    1. Re:Raph Koster by pHatidic · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Koster was also the first to realize the value of "elder games", i.e. the things that keep players into a game after they have already hit the max levels. These include things like collecting rare items (stamp collecting), player housing, guild warfare, becoming a counselor or seer (in UO a counselor is like a minor GM and a seer facilitated role playing, basically player GMs with some limited powers). Anyway I have heard claims from others that he ruined UO in the later years, but in the first couple years at least he was doing a great job. He also communicated very well with players and started the trend of fortnightly player chats with game devs in IRC which no other game to my knowledge has done before

    2. Re:Raph Koster by Surt · · Score: 1

      There were lots of game devs with all of these ideas long before koster. Koster's implementations of them weren't even very good.
      Koster does not know good game design.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    3. Re:Raph Koster by pHatidic · · Score: 1

      Well others had the ideas before koster, but koster was the first that I know of to collect them all into a single list. Also, I disagree with you on kosters implementations. UO was the best MMORPG when it came out and nothing to my knowledge has surpassed it since for hardcore gamers. There were no non-PK zones, player housing, boats, and you could pick up and move every item without any slotted inventory type system. Now all of the MMORPGs that come out like WoW are dumbed down for the masses, and it is unlikely that any more games as 'real' and unforgiving as UO will be coming out any time soon.

    4. Re:Raph Koster by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >Koster was also the first to realize the value of "elder games", i.e. the things that keep players into a game after they have already hit the max levels. These include things like collecting rare items (stamp collecting), player housing, guild warfare, becoming a counselor or seer [...snip...] I don't know who Koster is but I find it hard to attribute these game qualities to a single person (i.e., the first to realize). I recall the first "Super Mario Bros." having a LOT of secrets in the game. The same could be said of "Adventure Island". I was a total fan of Nintendo because many of the games for its platform had this qualities: secret levels, collecting, etc.

    5. Re:Raph Koster by hyphz · · Score: 1

      Yes.

      And this is also the guy who argued that levelling treadmills are beneficial to MMORPGs because any other method of distributing player power would lead to 10% of the players having 90% of the power.

      Thing is, a look at World of Warcraft proves that wrong. You don't have to get rid of the leveling. You just have to get rid of the treadmill.

    6. Re:Raph Koster by RaphKoster · · Score: 2, Informative

      Er, no, that's not what I said. I'm always amazed at how reductionist paraphrasing can make me look bad. ;) I said (in simplest form) that in a zero sum game dependent on skill, the better players end up with most of the wins (duh). I said that in a a non-zero-sum game, if extremely high skill is required to advance, then only the best will reach the top (duh). And I said that treadmills (defined as "game systems that reward perseverance rather than skill") allow players who aren't experts at something to reach the high end content. This latter one led me to conclude that treadmills aren't a bad thing in a multiplayer game, since they are effectively handicapping players who are not as expert. FWIW, in the book, I say "not requiring player skill in a game is a cardinal sin in game design." I'm not at all a fan of grinds or repetitive treadmills.

    7. Re:Raph Koster by mynameisnotnick · · Score: 1

      Koster was also the first to realize the value of "elder games",

      Hardly - the concept, hell that exact term, was in use at Kesmai before UO launched. Multiplayer BattleTech had a fully fledged (and, imho, so far un-matched) elders game over a decade ago.

      I just recieved (yesterday) the book in question, and haven't started, but I'm curious how "fun" is defined - it's one of the most subjective words in any language.

      -gary cooper

    8. Re:Raph Koster by stonecypher · · Score: 1

      That's quite a claim to make, given that he's held the two largest franchises in the MMO world and that one has failed and the other is in the process of failing, despite legions of fans so rabid that they'll watch Episode One half a dozen times, and despite literally tens of millions of dollars in investment capital being pumped down his personal drain day in, day out.

      You want a smart guy in the MMO world? Look at the people who designed WoW, the original Evercrack, NWN, or things that are more than five years old. Look at games which succeed, whose fans aren't all constantly in complaint, whose releases are not burdened with design flaw after design flaw after design flaw. He wrote a list of painfully obvious rules? Good for him. Maybe he should read the lists his consumers have been trying to provide to him for years; he hasn't learned from any of his literally dozens of mistakes, and continues to make the same ones repeatedly with nearly every release he makes.

      I genuinely don't understand how he continues to get work. He's the Kevin Costner of the gaming world.

      --
      StoneCypher is Full of BS
    9. Re:Raph Koster by Surt · · Score: 1

      You made a list of many of koster's worst design decisions and lauded them. That's very interesting. It's probably also why his designs appeal to so few people: his ideas just aren't what most people would call fun.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
  17. As a gamer by Dj+Stingray · · Score: 1

    I have come up with plenty of fun game ideas based on existing engines. What do I do with these ideas? Will they be impossible to sell?

    Bueller?

    1. Re:As a gamer by FriedTurkey · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I have come up with plenty of fun game ideas based on existing engines. What do I do with these ideas? Will they be impossible to sell?

      Ideas are cheap. Execution is expensive.

      I can assure you 1000 people already has the same ideas you do. 999 of them won't do a single thing with the idea but think their ideas is unique and would really make a cool game. Sorry to poop on your parade.

  18. Cheating == No Context by adam31 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "When a player cheats in a game, they are choosing a battlefield that is broader in context than the game itself."

    This is totally false. The context of the game is the restrictions that make the game challenging. How hard you have to work to acquire a certain weapon, how careful you have to be to conserve ammo... how many enemies you have to kill to get to level 20.

    Those challenges are really the only things separating 'playing a video game' from 'pressing buttons on a controller'. That's probably why whenever I've cheated in a game in the past, it's gotten really boring really fast. The value of the goal becomes diminished along with the challenge.

    I don't think is necessarily limited to gaming, either. I think it's built into human nature.

    1. Re:Cheating == No Context by Jace+of+Fuse! · · Score: 2, Interesting

      One of the best things about medium to difficult games is the satisfaction of defeating them in the end.

      In most "Eventuwin" games that are out now days, the average (read, Unskilled) gamer will beat them with sufficient devoted time.

      Granted, there are different TYPES of player skills. Logical reasoning, navigation, resource management, memory, hand eye coordination, reflex speed, attention to detail, the ability to multitask, and any combination of the above all are different skills that might be important in different types of games.

      On the most basic external levels, all games will have to have some kind of initial sensory appeal, either artistically or contextual.

      But after that they must start challenging a person's skills. Some games aren't fun because while they may (or may not) be well presented they just don't play worth a shit.

      Having played literally thousands of games in my life (starting with the Atari 2600, and now owning all of the current systems (and only missing a few obscure mid-90's systems), I have played everything from the insanely difficult to the boringly easy.

      I can honestly say there is a great satisfaction in accomplishing something exceptionally difficult in a game knowing fwe other people would be able to.

      Also, I want to say, while I admit cheat codes built into games can add a new layer of amusement after the game has been defeated, I think it's a horrible shame that some of the greatest games of today are so horribly tainted with built in cheat codes that are widespread before the game even hits store shelves. Very, very, sad.

      --

      "Everything you know is wrong. (And stupid.)"

      Moderation Totals: Wrong=2, Stupid=3, Total=5.
    2. Re:Cheating == No Context by syukton · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I guess it depends upon the fundamental outlook of the player.

      The best example I can think of right off the top of my head is Trickjumping in any FPS that uses the quake3 engine. Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory is my preferred Q3-using game, so I'll use it for my example. Here's a little background so I don't lose anyone: W:ET is an axis-versus-allies team-based online multiplayer first-person shooter. It is largely objective-based and there are 5 character classes available: soldier (heavy weapons), field ops (hands out ammo / calls in airstrikes), medic (can give out health packs / revive fallen teammates), engineer (can build/destroy things), and covert ops (can take enemy uniforms and throw smoke grenades). The game also has one-way doors that only members of a specific team (or a covert ops in that team's uniform) can open.

      There's this map entitled "Siwa Oasis" or just "oasis" for short. On this map, you need to repair the water pump at the oasis and/or run through the tunnels to the old city, capture the old city, and then by either blowing up the old city wall or repairing the old city water pump and draining the tunnel, make your way to the two anti-tank guns and destroy them.

      Seems pretty straightforward, right? Well, it's actually possible to JUMP over the wall (without blowing it up and drawing attention to yourself), by exploiting what I guess you could call "nuances" in the physics engine. You see, it's possible to convert downward momentum into forward momentum by "bouncing" off of a curved or slanted surface, much the same way that a ray of light changes direction when hitting a mirror at an angle. Utilizing this method, it is possible to generate enough forward momentum from a position at about the same height as the wall, that you can propel yourself over the wall and be well on your way to blowing up the anti-tank guns before anybody knows what hit them.

      It requires a great deal of timing and skill to pull off this jump. I have personally spent hours getting it just right. Is totally circumventing the old city wall cheating? I could have gone through one of those one-way doors I mentioned earlier if I had the assistance of a covert ops and an enemy uniform, and that is certainly within the realm of gameplay mechanics. So, the circumvention of the wall is something that seems to be acceptable (given the door options presented to me), so does the method of wall-circumvention matter? Is jumping over the wall actually cheating?

      I totally agree with the statement made, "When a player cheats in a game, they are choosing a battlefield that is broader in context than the game itself." I like this statement because it speaks to my nature. I am the sort of person that likes to approach things from outside the box, and sometimes that means choosing a battlefield that is broader in context than the box itself.

      --
      Reinvent the wheel only at either a lower cost, greater effectiveness, or your own personal enrichment and satisfaction.
    3. Re:Cheating == No Context by Viking+Coder · · Score: 1

      "When a player cheats in a game, they are choosing a battlefield that is broader in context than the game itself."

      This is totally false.


      Uh, no - it's totally true.

      When someone creates a hack for Quake 3 that allows them to perfectly see where every other player is - they've just entered the predator / prey relationship of security in gaming.

      The problem is that you're forgetting that a "system" can be defined at multiple levels. Most chose to play the system of a game within the rules as the designers intended them. Some chose to play the system as it actually behaves, and chose to exploit the differences between design and implementation. Some chose to exploit security flaws in the system to enhance their experience beyond what is even possible within the implementation. Some chose to pay someone else to play the game for them, making the system the larger world of the economy of people willing to trade in-game items for real-world cash. Some chose to walk away from a specific game after ten minutes of play, and tell themselves they could have beaten it, if they had the time (playing the system of "all games are the same"). Some design and release a competing product (playing the system of profit from gamers).

      All of these people potentially had fun - and they all have a different view of what the system is. Some have a huge sense of accomplishment, and all but the first group have left the context of the game as designed.

      --
      Education is the silver bullet.
    4. Re:Cheating == No Context by OverflowingBitBucket · · Score: 1

      One of the best things about medium to difficult games is the satisfaction of defeating them in the end.

      In most "Eventuwin" games that are out now days, the average (read, Unskilled) gamer will beat them with sufficient devoted time.


      Warning/Disclaimer: Shameless self-promotion but on-topic post ahead.

      If you're frustrated by games that don't provide much of a challenge, you could try one of the games I've been working on this year. It's called Arena, and is part of E.V.E. Paradox, a game suite. I'd seriously recommend some sort of gamepad to play it. Check it out here.

      Basically it's a Robotron-inspired top-down retro-ish 3D shooter. The site has a free version with less levels which should serve as a sample. In theory you can then get the full version, although it's still in beta so you can't actually buy it yet. Having said that, I might be able to organise the beta of the full version for you if you like what you see- contact me if you try it out and like it.

      I mention Arena because it gets difficult very fast. Beating some levels will take you dozens of tries and the sense of satisfaction on doing so is quite immense. Despite being the author of the game I still get my rear handed to me on a regular basis in the harder levels. Fighting against such ridiculous odds can be quite exciting. I keep coming back for more.

    5. Re:Cheating == No Context by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Splashdamage has admitted that the Oasis Wall Jump was intentional. There were other unintentional trickjumps that were patched.

    6. Re:Cheating == No Context by tepples · · Score: 1

      Want hard? Try playing Anothers on Beatmania IIDX.

    7. Re:Cheating == No Context by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't think what you're doing is cheating... assuming that it's a game physics thing and not a map glich thing that you're exploiting. The physics are there for everyone to observe and be comfortable with, and exploit. The fact that game physics are necessarily different than real physics shouldn't mean that you ignore physically unrealistic moves even though the game allows it. Similarly, assholes who get mad at you for using the BFG, calling you a noob or somesuch should shut the heck up. Everyone has the same rules and it's rediculus to assume that other players should forgo a tatical advantage that is completely within even the intent of the game designers just because you don't like getting blown up by it. adapt. use the BFG, rocket jump over the walls, half the fun of these games is taking advantage of their particular weapons and physics to do neat and interesting things.
      I'll bet you got more satisfaction out of figureing out how to leap that wall than you ever would have bypassing it the way the designers intended. If they'd thought about that consequence to their physics, they might even have left it in or designed another challenge that requires it.

      My message to game designers is this: If players start to take advantage of your game in ways you hadn't originaly intended, don't just change the game to get rid of the behavior you didn't intend. Try to figure out why they're doing it. It may be that they get more satisfaction out of figuring out tricky things to do, so "correcting" the "error" makes the game less intersting.

    8. Re:Cheating == No Context by PsiPsiStar · · Score: 1

      The problem is that you're forgetting that a "system" can be defined at multiple levels. ... and that according to game theory, everything is a game provided it has some kind of rules and a desired outcome, whether they're game rules or social rules.

      I totally agree with you, though I do think that if you're playing a single player game and cheating, some cheats can take a lot of the challenge and fun out of things.

      --

      ___
      It's the end of my comment as I know it and I feel fine.
    9. Re:Cheating == No Context by ChaosDiscord · · Score: 1
      This is totally false. The context of the game is the restrictions that make the game challenging.

      What you've said doesn't necessarily invalidate his statement. Chosing to cheat simply changes the restrictions you're playing against. Instead of "I can't attack more than ten times per minute or my character faints" to "I can't stay in local memory or Punkbuster kills my program." You're not really playing DeathSpank III anymore, you're playing a game you made up yourself.

      I haven't actually messed with too many games, but in a few cases I've played the "What happens if I mess with the data files" game. I'm not intending to win the game more easily, I'm playing with it to see what I can accomplish. Recently while playing the most awful Big Rigs I spend a half hour playing the "Can I actually play using the motorcyle data files the developer left laying around on the CD?" (I won that game. Although I still lost, since I still own the game. Egad...)

      All that said, most cheaters aren't really interested in the game of playing with their computers. Myself, I typically cheat in single player game when I am longer enjoying the game but want to see the ending. I'm not playing a game. Cheaters on online games aren't studying the interesting problem of modifying a running program; they want to be 1337 in the game. Indeed, as you say, cheating tends to be boring for most people.

      So Koster has a point in theory, but in practice he's basically wrong. I just wouldn't go so far as to say that he's "totally" false. Just mostly.

    10. Re:Cheating == No Context by Illserve · · Score: 1

      You are thinking of cheating as in cheat codes to get god mode or something of that nature.

      What he's talking about is cheating that requires skill to do and only provides a modest benefit, and the more skill you have, the better the benefit.

      So in a sense it's pitting your skill at cheating against theirs, and it's certainly an interesting way to play.

    11. Re:Cheating == No Context by RaphKoster · · Score: 1
      The way I phrase it in the book (this is from memory) is that the easiest way to get past a challenge in a game is not to play... so I don't think we are actually in significant disagreement. There was substantially more text that went along with the statement on cheating than just that one sentence. :)

      When you say you'd rather see the ending than keep plowing through the game levels, that's exactly the sort of "choosing a different battlefield" that I mean.

  19. What makes a game fun by Radres · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I've done much thinking on the subject, and I contend that there are 4 main elements that lead to a game being fun:

    #1) Storyline. This is the most basic element; a computer game can be looked at as a form of interactive movie. However, storyline is not essential since games have elements that movies cannot provide. An example of a game the excels at storyline without the other elements is Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic. It basically immerses the player in the Star Wars universe without requiring too much in the way of critical thought or reflexes.

    #2) Hand-eye coordination. At it's most basic level, a game requires the player to learn how to interact with the environment via some input device, whether it's a mouse, keyboard, joystick, or what have you. An example of a game that does this without the other elements is the original Space Invaders. Not much thought is needed to perform in that game, but learning how to press the fire button and move quickly is important.

    #3) Tactics. Forcing the player to make a decision that has both benefits and weaknesses. Forcing players to make real-time decisions in a fantasy world leads to a sense of immersion. It's hard to think of a game that is purely tactical-based, but for an example of what I'm talking about, let's look at Contra. The game takes the basic shooter hand-eye coordination premise that a game like Space Invaders has, and adds the requirement that the user be smart enough to figure out what weapon to use for a given scenario. There are of course better examples, but this particular example gives you the basics of how tactics can be used to enhance a game.

    #4) Strategy. Forcing the user to come up with an overall plan for how to do things. An example of a game that excels in this area is Civilization. Provoking critical thought from the user in order to solve a detailed problem (albeit a fictional one) involves the user on a higher level that can be appreciated. I find that the games with the most longevity tend to feature a lot of strategy.

    The most successful of games will combine all 4 of these elements. My favorite game is Starcraft, and it is clear to see how all of these elements are used. The storyline is okay, the hand-eye coordination required is immense, the tactics involved are complex, and the strategy level is great. Other games can be broken down similarly. For example, Counter-Strike has no storyline, but there's hand-eye coordination required for aiming the weapon, tactics for deciding what equipment to use, and strategy for deciding how to approach the level with your team.

    Think about it, and I bet you'll be hard-pressed to find another way to evaluate gameplay. I only wish there was a game review magazine that took these factors into account!

    1. Re:What makes a game fun by ZorbaTHut · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think it's also very clear that these elements are neither necessary nor sufficient. There are plenty of fantastic games that don't include all of these, or even most of these, and plenty of horrible games that do.

      Yes, these are all important to think about. But so are many other aspects, such as immersion (which is quite different from storyline), difficulty, a sense of accomplishment, replayability, etc etc etc.

      --
      Breaking Into the Industry - A development log about starting a game studio.
    2. Re:What makes a game fun by quoofstatus · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      I find your system useless. How can you rate a game based upon it when you can excel, very basically, in only one element, as Space Invaders does for "hand-eye coordination," and yet still be considered a good game? Your system may classify games, but it brings us no closer to understanding why certain games are fun and others are not.

      It is also an extremely limited classification. Playing with legos fits none of those categories, unless you count "hand-eye coordination" or "strategy," but both of those are very contrived. Off of the top of my head I would say the joy comes from creation, which would, without much thought, place it with sculpture or drawing; but those are not really "games," are they? So legos are not a game but an art form! What a profound conclusion.

      Such is your method, it is fairly arbitrary and lacks a solidity which may or may not have come after more thought.

    3. Re:What makes a game fun by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Using your 4 main elements, I guess anything less of video games (board games for example) aren't good games or does stacking chips or flipping cards count as hand-eye coordination? Story line, reading the instructions?

      I'm just wondering, because I do agree those are what makes a good video game, but all game design, maybe not.

    4. Re:What makes a game fun by Radres · · Score: 1

      3 of the examples I gave (Space Invaders, Knights of the Old Republic, and Civilization) are games that only excel in one category, but you'll note that I don't say that detracts from them in any way. All 3 of those games are fun and I enjoy them. A game can do any or all of these things and still be enjoyable. Combining the elements does lead to more depth and replayability. Of course a poor implementation will be bad, and there is no guarantee of fun just like a piece of music that follows all the rules of the theory of music will not necessarily be good.

      I think the other categories you mention stem from my 4 ideas. Difficulty stems from requiring more from the user in terms of hand-eye coordination as well as tactical and strategic knowledge. Sense of accomplishment is directly related to overcoming difficulty. Immersion comes from the fact that you are using real-life problem-solving skills to solve problems in a virtual world. Replayability requires from requiring deep thought in tactical and strategic terms as well as many tactical and strategic options.

    5. Re:What makes a game fun by Radres · · Score: 2, Insightful

      A game has to do at least one of these things well. I find that games that don't do any of these, such as Everquest, are the worst. Last time I checked, Legos are not considered a game! Perhaps Legos are a puzzle or a work of art. I'm not sure what you are trying to say in that paragraph, but it makes no sense as you contradict yourself. I was limiting myself to the field of video games so Legos are irrelevant anyway. I'm guessing you think that Photoshop is one of the best games ever!

    6. Re:What makes a game fun by deinol · · Score: 1

      Player rewards are very important in a game. I imagine a popular game would be one that, when you accomplish a task, rewards the player with direct stimulation of the pleasure centers of the brain.

      When we reach that level, we won't need to have complex story-lines or any of that, just moving a little disk into a funnel would be sufficient.

      And I'd have taken over that starship if it weren't for those darn kids.

      --
      Got Apathy?
    7. Re:What makes a game fun by Radres · · Score: 1

      I meant to constrain my system to the field of video games.

    8. Re:What makes a game fun by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 1
      While you're on the boat, you missed a few decks, IMO.

      I'm a programmer, and game designer. These are the core elements I've identified in all games:

      • Creation / Nurture
      • Destruction (or Killing)
      • Cooperation
      • Competition
      • Communication
      • Exploration
      • Navigation
      • Pattern Recognition
      • Problem Solving ( i.e. Micro = Tactics, Macro = Strategy)
      • Organization
      • Acquisition (or Greed)
      • Trade
      • Simulation / Complexity
      • Personality, or Atmosphere, either via the Characters or World to allow Immersion

        I really should get my "Fundamentals of Game Design" book done someday...

        Peace
    9. Re:What makes a game fun by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      These are the core elements I've identified in all games:

      Just to clarify, do you mean all games have some of those elements?

      Because chess, checkers, othello and mancala don't have much communication or cooperation. I don't think Monopoly would be called an exploration game although plenty of competition and acquisition. The whole New Games Movement was based on cooperation but certainly no destruction.

    10. Re:What makes a game fun by Mazem · · Score: 1

      While I agree with your pointss, I think that its important that a game should scale with the player as he/she becomes more skilled.

    11. Re:What makes a game fun by jackbird · · Score: 1
      Those critera are extremely narrow, encompassing only video games, and even then only games of a certain sort. Tetris, for example, is extremely compelling, yet fails utterly at #1 and #4, and how do you even begin to evaluate Dance Dance Revolution on those terms?

      For a broader look at what makes games of all sorts fun, and an examination of the difference between 'play' and 'games,' and all sorts of other cool stuff, (by people who have actually made fun, imaginative games no less) I recommend

      Salen & Zimmerman , Rules of Play, MIT Press 2004

    12. Re:What makes a game fun by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 1

      Well, with DDR it's hand-*foot* coordination, but it's the same principle. And there's more tactics to DDR than a lot of people realize; in the two player, maybe even some strategy in song selection.

      Chris Mattern

    13. Re:What makes a game fun by ChaosDiscord · · Score: 1

      Fun is harder than a list of 4 things. In part, because fun is different for different people.

      Take, for example, The Sims. Wildly successful, my addicted friends insist it's fun. Debatably it has "#1) Storyline", but only player generated. The Sims is almost completly lacking in "#2) Hand-eye coordination." You'll get more HEC work browsing the web. "#3) Tactics"? Minimal.

      Another example, one of the best selling computer games ever, Myth. Lots of tasty Storyline, yes. Basically zilch HEC and Tactics. Debatable tactics. Bestseller and very fun.

      You claim SW:KOTOR is almost nothing but storyline, yet it's critically acclaimed and very popular.

      These are some interesting axis to consider a game on, but far from the only ones.

    14. Re:What makes a game fun by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good games give players enough choice in activity to adapt to changing -- and especially adverse -- conditions.

      (Momberger's first law of games)

    15. Re:What makes a game fun by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've done much thinking on the subject, and I contend that there are 4 main elements that lead to a game being fun:

      Translation: I'm trying to justify all the time and money I've blown on games by sounding pseudo-scientific. :-)

      The most successful of games will combine all 4 of these elements.

      Well, you've apparently identified what makes games fun for *you*. I don't see how you can speak for everybody.

      My favorite game is Starcraft, and it is clear to see how all of these elements are used.

      Well, there you go. Not everybody's favorite game is Starcraft. We all have different criteria.

      Think about it, and I bet you'll be hard-pressed to find another way to evaluate gameplay.

      Really? I have a good one: is it fun to play? I can try to justify it with important-sounding words like "tactics" or "storyline" or whatever, but in the end, all it comes down to is: is it fun to play?

      If there was a simple checklist of 4 things you needed to make a hit game, game companies would have figured it out decades ago, and been cranking out hit games every time. (There isn't, which is why they don't.) Who would have guessed that Donkey Kong would have been such a hit?

    16. Re:What makes a game fun by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 1

      > Just to clarify, do you mean all games have some of those elements?

      Yes, all games, MAY have 1 or more of those elements. The elements are all othognal.

      Sorry for the confusion if you thought any one game had all those elements. That's clearly not the case, as you are perfectly aware. i.e. there is no exploration, cooperation in chess.

      Peace

  20. In 10 words or less... by astebbin · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Disregard the subject header, I'm letting my inner news columnist get the better of me.

    Many people play violent video games so that they can have fun and do things outside their normal realm of controlled behavior. This is fun for us because it is new and diferent than what we are used to doing as we go about our daily lives as citizens. For example, many respectable, middle aged men play GTA3 and love it, yet those same nice guys would never run over innocent bystanders like that in real life. Granted, the men in question probably wouldn't ever get the chance to drive something like the Rhyno tank anyway, but still...

    Besides, people are always easily entertained by novel and exciting games/inventions/concepts/OS's/pieces of hardware that are easily mistaken for a stick of gum (USB memory sticks and the iPod shuffle). Obvious excpetions include the Dreamcast, N-Gage, NeoGeo, and Virtual Boy.

    1. Re:In 10 words or less... by mynameisnotnick · · Score: 1

      Many people play violent video games so that they can have fun and do things outside their normal realm of controlled behavior.

      That's what sells the box. It's the game design, however, that keeps players interested and sells the sequels.

      Go to GDC and you'll hear designers talking about GTA; not about whacking hookers over the head, but about it's extremely impressive game design

      -gary cooper

  21. Games and Violence by Jack+Taylor · · Score: 1

    The meat of the book is here, in discussions about why gamers cast aside the ethical quandaries brought up by games like Grand Theft Auto (they're playing the game mechanics, not the fiction surrounding the mechanics)
    ...
    With parent groups growing ever more shrill at the release of morally ambiguous titles, Raph Koster's book is a refreshing read.


    Good. The more that respected people emphasise this, the better. There has been a frenzy going on in the last few years in the American media (and other countries, to an extent) about violence incited by games, films, and gangsta rap. If we make an effort to find out what really happens when we play games, we have a much better argument to show them they are wrong.

    --
    One good turn - gets all the covers.
  22. So how's this different... by Telastyn · · Score: 1

    From the overly serious cruft the reviewer describes in the intro? The review makes this book sound just like every other piece of junk about game design I've ever seen.

    Nothing about game design, too many stories without morals, and far far too many gimmicks rather than providing actual information/instruction.

  23. Guaranteed fun! by Black+Parrot · · Score: 1


    > Plug your game into this equation:

    f=ck

    --
    Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    1. Re:Guaranteed fun! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Correction: game must exist in set F (union) CK

  24. Theory of Fun is a Theory of Learning by mfeldstein · · Score: 1

    I recently blogged a short review of this book from the perspective of somebody in the online learning business. What's interesting to me is that Koster believes "fun" is an evolutionary adaptation to reward learning. Fun comes with mastery of skills, he suggests. So when you hear somebody say that a game is "better than sex," it's possible that there's more to it than a game geek whose memory of sex is somewhat...hazy.

    Also interesting is Koster's comparison of what games can teach versus what stories can teach. He believes that games teach abstract pattern recognition. You beat the game by grokking the pattern. The fact that the obstacles you have to eliminate happen to be human beings...well, games aren't so good at getting you to empathize. Stories do that much better (he claims).

    For a contrasting view, you might want to check out "Is Instructional Video Game an Oxymoron?" in this week's New York Times (registration required).

    1. Re:Theory of Fun is a Theory of Learning by mfeldstein · · Score: 1

      Oops! Sorry, the NY Times article wasn't the one I was thinking of. The contrasting view I meant to post was "Educational Games Don't Have To Stink!", (also requiring registration), which argues that games don't teach; they just "illustrate."

      Personally, I think Koster is closer to the mark. Games teach something, but they may not be very good at teaching the sorts of things that are often crammed into eduware.

  25. Puzzles? by Dunbal · · Score: 0, Troll
    "Games are puzzles to solve, just like everything else we encounter in life."

    *Ask wife for sex
    The wife glares at you, and refuses sex.
    *take out garbage
    *ask wife for sex
    The wife glares at you, and refuses sex.
    *wash car
    *take out garbage
    *ask wife for sex
    The wife glares at you, and refuses sex.
    *buy flowers
    *give flowers to wife
    *take out garbage
    *wash car
    *give money to wife
    *ask wife for sex
    The wife glares at you, and refuses sex.

    *kill wife with sword; have sex with corpse...


    Puzzles eh? I feel sorry for that guy...

    --
    Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    1. Re:Puzzles? by drsquare · · Score: 1

      You missed the alternative steps:
      *Offer money to wife in return for sex.
      The wife agrees
      *Give money to wife
      *Fuck wife
      *Take money back from wife

    2. Re:Puzzles? by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 1

      Ah, the GTA approach to love and marriage...

      Chris Mattern

  26. contradiction by glMatrixMode · · Score: 3, Funny

    A Theory of Fun

    you can't use these words together

    --
    War doesn't prove who's right, just who's left.
  27. Art != Craft by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Art, to me, is just taking craft seriously.
    There is art, and there is enterntainment. One who does not see difference is neither capable of making art, nor capable of appreciating art made by others.

    1. Re:Art != Craft by Shelrem · · Score: 1

      Speaking of oversimplifications and things he's wrong about:

      "...why gamers cast aside the ethical quandaries brought up by games like Grand Theft Auto (they're playing the game mechanics, not the fiction surrounding the mechanics)."

      I mean, this is somewhat true. There's definitely a distinction between the two, but to think that they're entirely seperable, and that the narrative elements don't matter at all is purely ridiculous. If what he says is true, then the only important differences between GTA3, GTA:VC, and GTA:SA would be the feature changes. While those may be big differences, it's ridiculous to claim that the Godfather 2 setting of GTA:VC has no bearing on play experience, or that people aren't interacting with the subject matter on some level. I think playing GTA:VC doesn't make people horribly violent for the same reason that watching the Godfather 2 doesn't make people horribly violent -- because there's no reason it should. Representations of violence and simulations of violence are not themselves violence.

      If you want to argue Media Effects, that's fine, but not the point i'm trying to make. The point i'm trying to make is that the fact that playing violent games does not mean the players are violent people does not necessarilly lead us to the conclusion that we ignore the "story" elements of violence in games.

      Would GTA sell as well if the story was nonsense?

      b.c

    2. Re:Art != Craft by RaphKoster · · Score: 1

      In the book I in fact say that they are INseparable. :)

    3. Re:Art != Craft by Shelrem · · Score: 1

      Excellent.

      Sorry, i guess i was attacking the seeming opinion of the reviewer rather than your own arguments, since i haven't read the book myself.

    4. Re:Art != Craft by kulakovich · · Score: 1


      But there's an Arts and Crafts Museum...

      kulakovich, channeling Homer Simpson.

    5. Re:Art != Craft by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That never happens on Slashdot!

  28. For explanation of parent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  29. From the author... by RaphKoster · · Score: 1

    Thanks for the review, Zonk!

    I wanted to point out that the book has a website, with a blog with extended commentary and the PDF presentation that originally led to the book. It can be found at http://www.theoryoffun.com.

    As regards some of the critiques about myself or my work posted... I've said before that I wrote this book as an effort to get back to basics.

    FWIW, though, a lot of people have incorrect impressions about what I did on what titles, and when I was on them and when not. :) I'm far from being perfect, but some of the comments credit me with stuff I didn't do, blame me for stuff I didn't do, don't credit me for stuff I did do, and don't blame me for some things that probably should be considered my fault. That's life, I suppose, but if anyone has questions on those fronts, I'd be happy to clarify them here.

    1. Re:From the author... by losman · · Score: 1

      I've been a UO person for 6+ years. What would you say are some of the things you are proud of from your UO days? What about some of the stuff you wish you could take back/do over?

      I only ask since you mention a lot mis-quoting and I always like to hear it directly from the source.

      --
      Q: I am short, useless and provide no value. What am I? A: a sig
    2. Re:From the author... by RaphKoster · · Score: 1

      I'm proud of making the following things be key parts of the MMO experience, or things that IMHO point the way for future development of MMOs. Yes, many of them existed in muds, but even in muds a lot of them were not common. - crafting - player cities - pets (more Tamagotchi-style than just summonies charmies) - player housing - enough freedom of expression to support things like player-written books, in-game theater troupes, and so on - TRYING to solve the problems inherent in allowing player freedom - bringing together many playstyles in one game - some of what we did in terms of events - no level - no classes Stuff I'd do over if I could: - #1 with a bullet, player freedoms causing playerkilling and it getting totally out of control, and being blind/stubborn to what players were saying about it. There's a thing on my website about that, if you care to read it, "a UO postmortem of sorts" - complete lack of emphasis on traditional questing-style content - not following through on things (necromancy, townstones) FWIW, I was creative lead for the original UO release, and was on Live for two more years after that. I left before the Trammel/Felucca split.

    3. Re:From the author... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have a question for you, but I think I'd like to let you know where I am coming from before I pose it.

      I used to play Star Wars: Galaxies. I loved the skill system (especially that it was flexible and I could change my character without having to "quest" for anything), and thought the game had great potential.

      With my first character, I decided to pick 3 things I would be good at (since I'd heard you could master 3 things). I picked Weaponsmithing and Architecture, and figured I would want some combat skill. I love martial artists, and had heard of the Teras Kasi in the Star Wars Universe, and so I decided to play one. I was extremely disappointed, and found that many others were in melee in general, as ranged weaponry outclassed it dramatically.

      I watched the boards for a while, and posted in discussions about melee vs. ranged. There were lots of discussions about it, rational and irrational. Some real jerks who wanted to continue to be dominant in the game would simply state "don't bring a knife to a gunfight", citing "real life" as the reason that the game wasn't balanced, in a game not remotely based upon real life. Those of us who hoped for our choices to become valid mostly ignored these people, because it was such a silly and insulting response.

      Then you came in and said, word for word, "Don't bring a knife to a gunfight".

      I cancelled my account as soon as I saw this, and didn't look back, because it was clear to me that you weren't interested in me having fun with the options presented in your game. Here was the lead designer of the game, parroting the most inane response given by the most rude and self-centered players.

      Why would you put a career path (for lack of a better term) that was designed to be inferior into your game? How is this fun?

    4. Re:From the author... by losman · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the reply. I will take a look at your site and more than likely you book as well. Sure there are things in UO, SWG and all the games that I don't particulary like. If I step back and look at the entire experience there are a lot more that I do like.

      I've always felt that part that drove me to play UO so much were portions that allowed you to show-off a bit. Show-off as in being proud that you were one of the few to have something. GM Skills - especially Smithy in those days. Rares, large houses, Ranger Armor, etc.

      I like SWG because it has a lot of that stuff as well. Unfortunately it is time to learn a whole new world/interactions that keeps me at UO.

      Back to the topic; I thank you for the response and I look forward to reading your article and the book.

      --
      Q: I am short, useless and provide no value. What am I? A: a sig
    5. Re:From the author... by RaphKoster · · Score: 1

      Well, just as you don't bring a knife to a gunfight, don't bring a gun to a knife fight. That would be a space with very tight quarters that rewarded stealth.

      In the wide open spaces of SWG, there proved to be next to no knife fights, but I do think the principle that different weapons are good in different situations is valid.

      I'd also point out that SWg was designed so that you DON'T define yourself strictly as one thing or another.

  30. Are games limited to this? by Shelrem · · Score: 1

    As someone who spends a great deal of his time in the scholarly study of videogames, i take an admittedly high-falootin' stance on all this.

    I have the same first impression of this book that i would of a book called "A Theory of Prettiness for Painting." Which is not to say that i think fun isn't important or desirable in games (i love Tetris, for instance), but i think the medium has potential for greater things, too. It doesn't help that i see this man's work as being very incremental. The same problems that he was working on in UO and SWG have been dealt with for years in MUDs.

    On the other hand, i think that this seems like a fairly accurate description of what actually goes on, and what he's working on. When Raph Koster describes the book as something he could give to non-industry types to describe what he does, i think that he probably hit the nail on the head. I just wish that people would see this more as the way it is, not the way it should be.

    I also see posting this on slashdot as similar to posting a review about "A Theory of Prettiness for Painting" on a message board for paint makers, but i know there are a lot of open minded, smart people on here, so hopefully we'll get some interesting discourse out of it.

    b.c

  31. Idiot Testing by cirby · · Score: 4, Interesting

    There's a bad habit among some game designers. They use friends and "nice" people to playtest their games.

    You have to include idiots and assholes in your test sequence. You need to have That Guy - the rules lawyer, the "I didn't mean to do that" fellow, the "I don't understand this" twit. And you need to build your system to shut them out when it's done. For MMORPGs, you need the sort who will get a medium-powered character and hunt down the newbies. You need a complete lunatic for driving games ("why can't I drive across the river here?"). You need a tactical asshole, who will camp on a resurrection point in a shootemup.

    (The idea of "idiot testing" was laid out quite nicely by Steve Jackson about 25 years ago, in "Game Design: Theory and Practice"). It was about board games, but the concept holds even more for online games.

  32. My Review on Amazon by SirBruce · · Score: 1

    For those interested, I also wrote a review for Amazon that was accepted recently. It's mostly positive, but includes criticisms as well.

    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/ 1932111972?_encoding=UTF8&customer-reviews.sort_by =-SubmissionDate&n=283155

    Bruce

  33. How is this offtopic? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It sounds like he's having fun with his pubes, fun being the very topic of this article.

  34. WWIIOL Model by Mittermeyer · · Score: 1

    I would say WWIIOL has a completely different model-

    * Play up to get rank (and maintain account so you keep access to all your toys),

    * Work within a large uberteam (Axis or Allies), each of which may have it's own tribes or clans (squads in WWIIOLspeak),

    * Beat the snot out of the other uberteam,

    * Players provide content as the 'puzzles' constantly change due to new equipment or new towns being included into the map, and different attack approaches mean even the same old towns are attacked in new ways from differing directions,

    * And if the game gets boring, you can switch to air, ground or sea equipment of another nation and work your way up there.

    --
    ________________________________________ History Must Not Fall Into The Wrong Hands ___________________________________
  35. Re:A tribute to Little Johnny by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You forgot "Don't post while you're on...whatever it is you're on." Oh, and maybe "Try and stay on topic and make some sort of point."

  36. Taking fun seriously and other junk by xenocide2 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Yet another article about taking fun seriously, and trying to devise a grand unified theory of fun. I should start a pool on when someone conducts a game desgin study using a game with a single button that says "You Win" when clicked on as a control.

    Games are difficult to quantify, especially as they're being pulled in so many different directions. Some Professors of Fun want to laud the advent of interactive storytelling and such nonsense (glorified choose your own adventures at best). Just a few days ago we a different opinion on /. on how awesome sequals are, because they add bigger explosions and more outrageous design built upon the backs of predecessors and competitors. And there's plenty more out there telling us how awful commercial games from the standard venues lack innovation.

    If you can't figure it out, games are built on competition. All games have a kernel of this, whether overtly present or a computer simulation of such. Street Fighter was one of those early games that brought gaming to the masses. This was a game so popular it found its way into Burger King's in my neighborhood, a feat probably not achieved since Pong itself (another fine multiplayer game). The best games quickly recognize this, and abuse this property in Pavlovian fashion. Goldeneye probably pioneered the incredibly popular method of motivating players to complete and excel at single player campaigns with multiplayer unlockables. Before you consider how many great games have come and gone without a (good) multiplayer aspect, consider how much better they would have been if there HAD been one. Mario 64 is considered one of the best games ever on many metrics, yet even Nintendo was quick to add a multiplayer scenario that's main criticism is not being true to the rest of the game.

    Making games fun then boils down to making games fair. Balanced, if you will. It doesn't matter how well scripted the cutscenes are, or how deep the plot is. What matters is that the game is fair. This is difficult to discover without extensive testing. This is a great argument for open source games, which often are available to players long before the game reaches some sort of final version and undergo a significant number of tweaks and revisions to find a perfect balance.

    --
    I Browse at +4 Flamebait

    Open Source Sysadmin

    1. Re:Taking fun seriously and other junk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      I should start a pool on when someone conducts a game desgin study using a game with a single button that says "You Win" when clicked on as a control.

      Just go to a casino. This game is very popular, though you don't always win.
  37. Mirroring the real world by tepples · · Score: 1

    risk/reward system was not in place for adventuring types. If the best stuff was made by players what was the use of taking risks adventuring.

    What's the risk/reward ratio for adventuring in real life?

    Getting higher skills in some respects would give you access to technology that you wouldn't use because there were better lower level alternatives

    In real life as well, you use what works. Not every situation calls for bleeding edge technology.

    Entertainers - once again interesting, but not engaging in terms of gameplay.

    You try being a professional entertainer in real life. It's not as glamorous as Viacom makes it out to be on MTV.

    In each of these cases, the plausibility of the scenario increases the immersion factor. If you want a game heavy on adventuring, go play a smaller-scale multiplayer RPG such as NWN.

    1. Re:Mirroring the real world by servognome · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The point of a game (for most people) is to escape the realities of life. To exist in a world where you make a difference, or at least feel like you are accomplishing something grand.
      What's the risk/reward ratio for adventuring in real life?
      That's why people play games, so they can take risks they otherwise never would, and gain the feeling of greatness they could never experience. Not too many people single handedly have saved the world in real life, but being "the one", the hero who saves the galaxy/kingdom/world is the premise of most games; that's what people want out of a game.
      In real life as well, you use what works. Not every situation calls for bleeding edge technology.
      People want to work towards something bigger and better. You don't wanna save up 100k to buy a Porsche and find out it runs like a Gremlin.
      You try being a professional entertainer in real life. It's not as glamorous as Viacom makes it out to be on MTV
      Besides Milli Vanilli and Ashlee Simpson, not many entertainers can go /AFK and macro their way to stardom.
      In each of these cases, the plausibility of the scenario increases the immersion factor. If you want a game heavy on adventuring, go play a smaller-scale multiplayer RPG such as NWN.
      This is why I would call SWG more of an online social experiment than a game. I think it's interesting what sorts of decisions they made to make it feel like living in a world; but ultimately they failed to be "fun."
      How much fun would NFL2k be if you had to spend 30 hours before each game doing repititious drills. Most people don't want reality, they want an entertaining "reality-lite" all the fun stuff with everything else taken out.

      --
      D6 63 0D 70 89 81 BB 8E 7B 7C 5F 5D 54 EA AB 73
    2. Re:Mirroring the real world by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have said this many times before and I'll probably repeat it in the future:

      "It's realistic" is not a defense for a poor game mechanic, unless the intent of your game is a simulation of an actual real life situation.

    3. Re:Mirroring the real world by Chess_the_cat · · Score: 1
      What's the risk/reward ratio for adventuring in real life?

      Who said real life was fun? Why would a game designer set out to replicate real life? Isn't that why I'm playing a game?

      --
      Support the First Amendment. Read at -1
    4. Re:Mirroring the real world by tepples · · Score: 1

      Isn't that why I'm playing a game?

      Who said that every game in existence has to be about adventuring?

  38. Another perspective... by iJames · · Score: 1

    Here's another, slightly more criticial review from a blog specializing in game and narrative theories:
    http://grandtextauto.gatech.edu/2005/01/25/a-theor y-of-fun-reviewed/

  39. You don't need that much. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Tetris breaks at least a couple of your rules. Universally, it's regarded as mucho fun. Tetris has some of the best longevity can imagine. People will be turning to Tetris in 10 years, I'm sure. Maybe more. Want fun? Play Tetris.

    Hand-eye? Yup.
    Tactics? Yup.
    Storyline? Nope.
    Strategy? Nope. Pure tactics and hand-eye, in my opinion. Levels blow by too fast to call it strategic.

    1. Re:You don't need that much. by dim5 · · Score: 0
      Agreed. Another good example is Mega Man. Storyline sucked. Not a lot of strategy. But lots of tactics. While Mega Man won't be resurrected for the rest of time, they did make like 10 of them, and continue porting it to new systems.

      People who want to pat themselves on the back for coming up with a good strategy will play chess. People who want to impress themselves/each other with mastery of immediate problem solving will play video games.

      --

      Is something burning?
      Oh, it's my karma.

  40. From the Dead Poster Society: by Infinityis · · Score: 1

    Tancred: I don't hear enough rips.

    CmdrTaco: Tancred.

    Tancred: CmdrTaco.

    CmdrTaco: I'm sorry, I- I didn't know you were here.

    Tancred: I am.

    CmdrTaco: Ahh, so you are. Excuse me.

    (CmdrTaco slowly logs off of Slashdot.)

    Tancred: Keep ripping Slashdotters. This is a battle, a war. And the casualties could be your moderation points.

  41. I think you're missing something by igomaniac · · Score: 1

    Above all the important thing in a game is to make the player feel good about himself, give him or her rewards. It's easy to make a game challenging, but much harder to make it seem challenging but in fact be easy so the player gets that warm fuzzy feeling when he beats it.

    I'll tell you a little story to give an example: While I was working on a boat racing game, me and the other main programmer studied a lot of racing games. I had a major realization when first I played V-Rally where a lot of the time your car ends up on the roof and has to be repositioned back on the track, or you end up turned around in the wrong direction. Sure it's not a bad game, it's challenging and it fulfils most of your criteria - but it's not really fun. Then we played Sega's Daytona in the arcade. It's a very fun game! After a while we started to realize why it was so much more fun than V-Rally. When you had a big crash the car was thrown spectacularly into the air. Just when you thought you were completely out of the race, somehow magically the car would _always_ land on the wheels with the nose pointing in the right direction along the track.

    The game designer and the programmers of Daytona had found a way to make the game cheat in the players favour without the player even noticing. This lead directly to a feeling that 'yes, I can drive a car at 200 Mph around a twisty race track, no problem' and if you had an accident you were feeling 'wow, I'm lucky - still in the race', not looking for the Pause->Restart Race menu...

    This is but one example, but you'll find that most games that are truly fun actually help the player a lot. Say in Zelda, when you're low on energy, the likelyhood that the enemy you beat will drop a heart increases. Little things like that.

    --

    The interactive way to Go -- http://www.playgo.to/iwtg/en/
  42. Some ideas and whining by PromANJ · · Score: 3, Interesting
    Sadly, most games today have such weak and inconsistant rulesets that they have too resort to invulnerable characters, impregnable forcefields and linear scripted setups.
    Bending the rules is one of the things I enjoy the most in games, but nowdays everything is too controlled in favour of storylines.
    It also seems to me that back in the day people/geeks made games because they wanted to and they had an idea, and nowdays it has to be 'safe' and they want to make money, so they make another WW2 shooter with some sneaker elements cuz that seem to be popular too.

    Here's some games I'm still wating for:
    • Exile was a little confusing and hard but it's just blew my mind. It's strange how a game that runs on a BBC micro with 16/32kb of mem can beat the crap out of ...something new and recent. When will I again see a game where I can just blow the door with a big pile of 'nades up instead of finding the key?
    • Paradroid? Great concept, it had the sneaker and LoS paranoia element, lots of replay value with the free roaming and different droids you could take over.
    • Lemmings. Is anyone else wondering why they aren't making a lemmings-like game with like... structural integrity and awesome physics?
    • Wrecking crew would be pretty neat with physics too wouldn't it?
    • SuperCars II? I want to buy missiles and armor again. I'm tired of running over symbols or driving in normal traffic.
    • Utopia K240... it was like Sim City and a RTS in one. Beats HomeWorld by a parsec if you ask me.
    • SimLife... imagine this with some new life algoritms and 3D morphing.
    • Star Control II! Imagine that with a dynamic realtime political universe with vast fleets of Umgah and Spathi or whatever going at it.
    • Metroid and Zelda never really had any sequels if you just look at how unlinear they were. There's no more walking into Dungeon 8 right from the start anymore. Sigh.
    • Blaster Master + Excite bike = my wet dream. It's so awesome to jump out with Jason and just swim or crawl around. Nowdays they don't accept characters smaller than 48 pixels even on GBA...
    • Stunt Car Racer felt so real! You were actually in that rollcage when you played that game.
    • Dogs of War was really unlinear, but it was balanced so it was just better to pick the easier missions from the start. I really like that kind of responsibility.
    • Elite. No elite... no, I don't want to play as "Slater - the ungrommed mercenary looking for his auntie's killer"... I want to play Elite... no, I don't want to play 'missions' where I shoot generic plasma balls on hoardes of pointless enemies... Just give me another Elite Dagnabbit!
    • Scorched tanks/earth, again, imagine what could be done with modern processors.

    Oh well, maybe I'm just old and nostalgic, but so are many others my age, so it should be a market, no?
    1. Re:Some ideas and whining by sbszine · · Score: 1

      Here's some games I'm still wating for [...] Star Control II!

      Here you go, it's open source now: http://sc2.sourceforge.net/

      --

      Vino, gyno, and techno -Bruce Sterling

    2. Re:Some ideas and whining by PromANJ · · Score: 1

      Ah, yes, Ur-Quan Masters (UQM) was actually the game that introduced me to StarControl II. There's a small forum community alive aswell (Pages of now and forever).

      Being a geek, I could not resist starting my own SCII project with ideas for a ... 3rd sequel... if you ignore SC3 http://www.itchstudios.com/psg/main.php?id=sce.

      I also managed to miss Exile (gravity/2D/exploration game) back in the day, and only came into contact with it quite recently (C64 version). It's a real gem! Blows most new games out of the water.

      I got an Exile project aswell http://www.itchstudios.com/psg/main.php?id=retro

      Someone notified me about a game called Cave Story, I can't play it atm. cuz of hardware problems but supposedly it's very neat.
      http://maxdamage.justblank.net/cavestory.htm

  43. A theory of fun is the last thing we need by mentaldrano · · Score: 1

    Every time someone comes in with a formula about how to make something better, some one with no actual expertise but a lot of power buys into it and from then on, you'd better follow the formula, even if your idea is unique enough to fall outside the boundary the formula takes into account.

    Everyone bitches about how much pop music sucks, but it sure sells well. Why? Because someone came up with a formula for predicting chart-toppers, and now you have to be really good to even be considered if your song scores poorly on the formula scale.

    Yes, a lot of video games suck, but at least there is no psuedo-objective "formula" for deciding a priori that a game will not sell well that publishers can use to reject games that may have otherwise been released even in small numbers. Self publishing is hard, even with the advantages of the internet. Imagine if the formula had predicted that "Yohoho Puzzle Pirates" would not sell. No publisher would have taken the risk on picking it up, even after the developers spent all that time popularizing it themselves.

    It has happened before, it will happen again.

  44. From the Crow... by classzero · · Score: 1

    "Greed is for amateurs. Disorder, chaos, anarchy: now that's fun!"
    ~Top Dollar~

  45. Hey, wanna have dinner and rent a macro? by tepples · · Score: 1

    You don't wanna save up 100k to buy a Porsche and find out it runs like a Gremlin.

    There are bad buys in the real world too. That's why you check with your guild and on web boards to see if someone else made a bad buy before you go and buy the same stuff, just like people who hang out on real-life epinions.com.

    not many entertainers can go /AFK and macro their way to stardom.

    Recorded music is a macro. A movie is a macro.

    This is why I would call SWG more of an online social experiment than a game.

    So there.

    1. Re:Hey, wanna have dinner and rent a macro? by servognome · · Score: 1

      There are bad buys in the real world too. That's why you check with your guild and on web boards to see if someone else made a bad buy before you go and buy the same stuff, just like people who hang out on real-life epinions.com.
      Making bad purchases isn't part of the goal of life, like skill advancement is in a game. Perhaps a better analogy (since this applies to skills) is you would not want to get a drivers license and find out cars are worse than walking, or a gun license to find out you can throw rocks that do more damage.
      Recorded music is a macro. A movie is a macro.
      But you can tell the difference between a live performance and a movie or recorded music. Also, the creation of a movie or music is engaging; perhaps future RPGs with entertainers could allow people to design their own moves and give them advancement based on how many CDs they sell, and earn extra xp for their live performances

      --
      D6 63 0D 70 89 81 BB 8E 7B 7C 5F 5D 54 EA AB 73
  46. If you have to invent a theory of fun by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You have QUITE OBVIOUSLY missed the point and will never make anything fun.

    Case in point: Raph Koster, creator of LegendMUD (snore), Everquest (repetition-induced hypnotic addiction != fun) and SWG (the anti-fun).

    1. Re:If you have to invent a theory of fun by RaphKoster · · Score: 1

      I was not, in fact, the creator of EverQuest. Another factually incorrect tidbit in Slashdot comments (*gasp*, can it be?)...

  47. Simulation of things other than adventuring by tepples · · Score: 1

    "It's realistic" is not a defense for a poor game mechanic

    I didn't say it was. Simulation breeds familiarity. Not all pastimes involve adventuring. If you want adventuring, find a world with more existing chaos that demands more adventuring.

    unless the intent of your game is a simulation of an actual real life situation.

    The cornerstone of entertainment in many MMORPGs is simulation of a fictional world, such as one said to have existed a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away. To many non-munchkins, MMORPGs aren't "games" in the classic sense as much as they are glorified chat rooms. People can go there and have a second life.

  48. Perseverance... by m3talsling3r · · Score: 1

    I agree with you in that a player with perseverance should head towards the op of the ladder. But why take skill out of the perseverance equation? For instance, why not make each skill build up, so that it takes perseverance to acquire the skill fully, yet make it easy to start the skill so that it's not out of the range of normal people to obtain. Also, why should skills be tied into levels? Most people look at levels as a gauge of player experience. Your not going to mess with a guy who's level 50 if you're level 3. But that shouldn't mean you have to be level 50 to learn how to ride a horse for instance; not in real life at least. I'd like to see a bit more realism in the interaction part seep into games, while making it seamless for the clients. What are your opinions on this?

    --
    My sig is as boring as you...
    1. Re:Perseverance... by RaphKoster · · Score: 1
      I've said publicly many times that "levels suck." I don't like them--specifically, I don't like them when they are a means of granting people power, as opposed to measuring achievement. They are, however, a convention that a lot of players DO like and find fun and rewarding. People like the feeling of getting more and more power as they advance.

      So I'm with you philosophically, but I'm also not blind to the desires of the market.

  49. Can you do me a personal favour? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Spend more time not creating "games" and less time creating them? Maybe try to convince the rest of the tards making these things to cut it out too?

  50. Old style games by sbszine · · Score: 1

    If you like games from the good old days (Lemmings is my favourite, but Star Control etc is in there somewhere also), Game Boy Advance is worth a look. You can get plenty of old games (Phantasy Star 1-3, Lost Vikings, Worms, original Zelda & Mario Bros), plus lots of pixel art strategy and shooter games (even Metal Slug).

    --

    Vino, gyno, and techno -Bruce Sterling

    1. Re:Old style games by sbszine · · Score: 1

      Haha, nice one.

      --

      Vino, gyno, and techno -Bruce Sterling

  51. take a deep breath by Omestes · · Score: 1

    First, I never really attacked the author, actually as outlined in the review I agree with some of his points. I don't think that he applied them well, though, and this might not be completely his fault, all I know is that if Sw:G is his attempt to impliment his strategy, then it is for the most part a borderline failure, as can be seen by the general concensus.

    I'm sorry, if it is arrogance, it is grounded arrogance. The public hasn't been schooled on what makes a good interface, and most of them have never put much thought into it, besides giving good ones the nod, and rejecting bad ones. This is visceral, and is quite different than trying to design a new one from the ground up. Notice the stagnant nature of this, if developers decide to make what consumers like, what they have been exposed to in games already. To inovate (as the foil to stagnation) the developer must break popular concensus, and makes something new, what is currently the hot style may not be applicable, or may rub against the developers creative ideals.

    I never claimed to know what is good for the public. Not my job, I just claimed a negation in that fact that they DON'T, I never advanced an ideal, nor am I qualified to do so. But then again, just because I'm not qualified, does not mean that someone else isn't. Perhaps if I went to school for years, and had years of experience, and put time into thinking of the ideal game interface, I might be slightly more qualified than Joe Public, don't you think?

    Also we have to add to this, that the public does not have concensus, and if they do, it is VERY rare. As a developer listening to the streets, you would have a different conception of the ideal game interface from almost every person you asked. There is too much noise to even try to listen to the public. If THEY as a whole knew what was good for them at least a decent majority would agree to one format.

    Truth is; egalitarianism is bunk. We have experts for a reason. The average person MIGHT know something about their own area of interest, but jack about most others. And in games, the public knows a lot about playing them, but not much about making them. You can add your own examples to my side, at will (autos, computers, literature, art). Name one thing that the public knows best about, and I mean the public as a whole.

    --
    A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
  52. huh? by pouch+licker · · Score: 0

    What? I don't get it? Bastedo http://bastedo.urbanup.com/1048859