What you're describing as keeping up with the guy in next cube is not the homework that is being assigned, and argued against (in my case.) You choose what you are reading. You are reading books that a) interest you and b) further your chosen career. I hope you can see how this is different from worksheets of math problems and end-of-chapter True/False quizzes.
I'm all for the type of "homework" you're describing: hitting kids with opportunities to learn more about what they are interested in and more of what could help them to choose a career. That is not what we're talking about though, and it's not districts mandate goes home with students every night.
When you start looking at what professional people do just to stay competitive and relevant, and once you realize that such work is often done on the individual's own time, the idea that homework doesn't exist in reality becomes silly.
What you just described is not homework in its current iteration in K12 schools. That's my problem with it. I understand what professional people do to stay competitive, and it is not reflected in the type of extra-curricular assignments that are handed out to our children.
I do agree w/ this. Homework should *never* be arbitrary; there should always be a serious, worthwhile purpose behind it. To do any less would be to impose an irrational decision upon dozens of students (then again, this can be valuable too - after all, it happens all the time in business and government, and students need to get used to this part of reality as well).
While I see value in teachers giving their students occasional drudge-work for the simple purpose of acclimating their students to the idea that much of life involves seemingly-pointless and/or boring drudge-work, I would still rather the homework be legitimately-instructive and educational in terms of knowledge gained or thinking skills improved - not just as an exercise to "whip them into shape" (to use another figure of speech)...
We are in agreement. The homework that is currently being assigned does not meet either of our standards for what it should be. (I'm going to keep pressing this, ignore it is you want: It also meets with what Kohn says about homework. I think it would be valuable to add The Homework Myth to your stack of books.)
For as pessimistic as you are about the current state of the K12 educational system, you sure are optimistic about the benefits of drill-and-kill homework. While I don't agree with your solutions, I can understand your viewpoint. I just don't see them as realistic. I'm sure all your peers think you're great, and hard work has really paid off in your life, but the reality is that today's children buckle and give up when faced with the type and amount of homework that is being assigned. Sure, that may make them liberal pussies, but is homework really teaching them any time management skills if they have two hours of it every night? Wouldn't it be more effective as a "character teaching" tool if I were to give them homework sporadically, so that when they did have it, they would have to plan for time to complete it? The way homework is currently assigned does not teach our children that there are "bumps in the road" or "hills to climb" in the real world that take hard work and planning. Rather, we are teaching them that they will have a couple hours of extra work, every night, no matter how their day went, whether they learned anything or got all of their work done at the office. "Work as hard as you want during the day, because you're going to have two hours worth of worksheets to do at home either way."
That, coupled with the ambiguous research on homework's benefit, says -- to me -- that the default of giving hours worth of homework every day, to every student, is out of line with reality. Students who need help understanding a concept should get just that: help. Not a worksheet full of problems they don't understand. I understand that you have a "math-brain" and that working on math problems that you don't understand is equivocal to playing the guitar and practicing jujitsu, but that is not how it is for every child. Which is why -- and I'm stealing this argument directly from our favorite author, Alfie Kohn -- the default needs to be changed. I don't see you arguing that homework needs to come from every class every night, but the article discusses a school who is merely swinging the pendulum all the way to the other side. As much as I think the amount of homework that goes home currently is a bad thing, I do not think that *no homework* is the answer (or a good thing.) Homework is not being used as a tool. If homework does have benefits, they are being hidden by the current way homework is being utilized.
Kohn answers all of the questions you asked -- directly, strangely enough -- in the book. The difference between his book and your assertions is that he uses research to back his.
The problem I see with your argument:
"The same is true of all other subjects: you won't grok history very well without reading quite a few books, which, during such reading, it is a waste of the professor's time to sit in class with you. You are unlikely to understand many mathematical concepts well until you practice them - outside the classroom, having beaten your head against a wall until you either understand them, or have asked the teacher after exhausting all other solutions you've developed. You will not understand music well without practicing it; you will not be an expert martial artist unless you practice your techniques, repeatedly; you cannot be an expert at dating without meeting many, many people who interest you; you are unlikely to be an excellent author without writing many pages of text, probably on several subjects (hence all the essays - more homework - which teachers have us write); and so on."
is the need for those to be classroom learning experiences. In all of your examples it is the exception, not the rule, who learns what you listed on their own -- without a teacher. Reading is a cross-curricular activity. If a student does not know how to read effectively, sending him home with a history book will not teach him anything. I'm not sure if this is hyperbole, but if your argument is truly that beating one's head against a wall until they magically understand mathematical concepts is how education happens, you are sadly mistaken. Again, the person who can pick up a musical instrument and merely "practice it" to become proficient is the exception, not the rule. All of the examples you listed are things that need to be taught, not merely learned.
There is a difference between homework and what you are describing. Homework is not merely practice. In theory, perhaps, but not in practice. If a students lacks understanding of the concept she is "practicing", they will not magically come to an understanding after many hours, they will be repeating mistakes. The idea of "homework" needs a proper definition to further this discourse. Of course, students must practice their skills. They obviously need to learn life itself is not 9-5, and there will always be "work" that needs to be done "at home." However, homework, as it stands, does much more to stifle the modal student's drive to learn than further any learning that has or hasn't taken place.
I will continue to disagree with your assertion that "learning" (in its most general sense, as it's being used) is a reinforce-able, behavioristic ability. Rote memorization is -- and I would argue it is a stretch to consider that "learning" at least in any deep-thinking sense of the term -- reinforce-able. Essay writing is not a behavior. 3 times 3 is a constant. Writing an essay is not. Analogically, free throw shooting is reinforce-able; it is constant. Running a motion offense (continual on and off the ball screening) is not constant or consistent; coaches have players practice the motion offense, not so they memorize the way the defense reacts, but to prepare them for a game situation. The free throw line never moves, just like the answer to 3 times 3 never changes. The motion offense is always reacting to a defense, the same way a student reacts to the subject matter when writing an essay. When practicing free throws, one is reinforcing muscle memory: a behavior. When practicing the motion offense, one is learning to react to an opposing force.
Now, to look at the idea of reinforcing behaviors -- in particular, math skills. If a student does not understand a math formula, and is assigned 20 problems using that formula for homework, I see no benefits coming from that homework. If a student doesn't understand how to do the problems, I can think of a few things that will happen that night. They may: a) teach themselves to get the correct answer without using the formula, thereby stunting their future learning, b) not do the problems, c) swear off math (or the particular teacher) all together. What if the student seeks guidance from a parent on math problems they don't understand? Well, do we want teachers teaching our students or parents? After all, aren't we trusting that the teachers know "how to teach" -- and aren't they the ones who are certified to do so? Parents are good at getting answers, they (most, obviously) are not trained to teach the steps and use the formulas involved (in this example.)
The problem I am pointing out is that "homework" can only reinforce "learning" (notice the quotes:)), it can't reinforce learning that hasn't taken place.
I agree with you that there are two types of homework; I just don't agree on your two types. The way I see it, busy work is "learning reinforcement." The kind of homework I will be assigning is what I would consider "discovery homework." As in, "Today we discussed ______. Tonight, find an example of ______ in the newspaper, on the internet, or in a discussion with your parents." Meaning: think, apply.
Good teachers (as much as I hate make rules for good teachers) design lessons that set aside time for both "guided practice" and "independent practice." If a student shows a lack of understanding of a concept during either of these two, the worst course of action I can think of would be to send that student home to practice his or her misunderstanding. If a student shows understanding, who am I -- who are we -- to say, "Good job, you've got it! Now take an hour out of your afternoon to keep doing it."
I wonder how they are going to explain the drop in grades? Probably blame it on the teachers or some such.
"Researchers have been far from unanimous in their assessments of the strengths and weaknesses of homework as an instructional technique." - Journal of Educational Psychology
"Harris Cooper and his colleagues conducted a study in 1998 with both younger and older students (from grades 2 through 12), using both grades and standardized test scores to measure achievement. They also looked at how much homework was assigned by the teacher as well as at how much time students spent on it. Thus, there were eight separate results to be reported.
Younger Students Effect on grades of amount of homework assigned: No significant relationship. Effect on test scores of amount of homework assigned: No sig. relationship. Effect on grades of amount of homework done: Negative relationship Effect on test scores of amount of homework done: No sig. relationship.
Older Students Effect on grades of amount of homework assigned: No significant relationship. Effect on test scores of amount of homework assigned: No sig. relationship. Effect on grades of amount of homework done: Positive relationship Effect on test scores of amount of homework done: No sig. relationship."
Why does it seem that the USA is progressively skimping on education? Is it any wonder that India and Japan (I am sure there are others) are surpassing us in general academic, and therefore work, achievement?
Because homework is not educational.
The Homework Myth by Alfie Kohn is a great read on this subject. Be prepared to have your assumptions challenged.
"No, I don't think people should cite it, and I don't think people should cite Britannica, either -- the error rate there isn't very good. People shouldn't be citing encyclopedias in the first place. Wikipedia and other encyclopedias should be solid enough to give good, solid background information to inform your studies for a deeper level. And really, it's more reliable to read Wikipedia for background than to read random Web pages on the Internet."
-Jimmy Wales
2.0 was a terrible release of OS X -- check out the mozillazine support forums -- i was running about a 25% chance of getting 2.0 to startup without having to force quit. started with RC 3 (obviously) but up until then it wasn't doing it.
oh well, i had always wanted to give camino a fair shot on a consistent basis....and it's been performing beautifully so far.
don't know if this has been mentioned, but if you use itunes to transfer songs to your shuffle, you can set the EQ for the song in itunes and the shuffle will play it with that eq.
-russ
if concerts were traded on vinyl or SACD i guess i would think about it. but since the story is about mp3, i will continue to talk about computer filetypes.
that's why i listen to lossy on my shuffle, cuz i use headphones. but i listen to lossless on my "good system"
i don't even know/care what 1337 means. dork code for something stupid. you keep listening to that shit that sounds like shit and i'll keep it lossless. thanks. and they're logitech. dick.
"Lets face it, downloading a single song here and there isn't too bad with P2P. But trying to download an entire album is a pain."
I've never downloaded a single song. i download album at a time or discography at a time. i have the feeling you are the exception, not the rule.
Slashdot Mirror
i dual boot on my macbook and i haven't used OS X in nearly a month. there's no need to when Gutsy has all the functionality plus it looks prettier!
and how much of google's is because of the default to google in firefox's search box and i'm feeling lucky in the location box?
if not, i'm sure they'll be happy to throw it on the ticker...
...not dead." -Paul Graham
oops, "Good talk" wasn't supposed to be in italics.
I'm all for the type of "homework" you're describing: hitting kids with opportunities to learn more about what they are interested in and more of what could help them to choose a career. That is not what we're talking about though, and it's not districts mandate goes home with students every night.
What you just described is not homework in its current iteration in K12 schools. That's my problem with it. I understand what professional people do to stay competitive, and it is not reflected in the type of extra-curricular assignments that are handed out to our children.
We are in agreement. The homework that is currently being assigned does not meet either of our standards for what it should be. (I'm going to keep pressing this, ignore it is you want: It also meets with what Kohn says about homework. I think it would be valuable to add The Homework Myth to your stack of books.)
Good talk.
For as pessimistic as you are about the current state of the K12 educational system, you sure are optimistic about the benefits of drill-and-kill homework. While I don't agree with your solutions, I can understand your viewpoint. I just don't see them as realistic. I'm sure all your peers think you're great, and hard work has really paid off in your life, but the reality is that today's children buckle and give up when faced with the type and amount of homework that is being assigned. Sure, that may make them liberal pussies, but is homework really teaching them any time management skills if they have two hours of it every night? Wouldn't it be more effective as a "character teaching" tool if I were to give them homework sporadically, so that when they did have it, they would have to plan for time to complete it? The way homework is currently assigned does not teach our children that there are "bumps in the road" or "hills to climb" in the real world that take hard work and planning. Rather, we are teaching them that they will have a couple hours of extra work, every night, no matter how their day went, whether they learned anything or got all of their work done at the office. "Work as hard as you want during the day, because you're going to have two hours worth of worksheets to do at home either way."
That, coupled with the ambiguous research on homework's benefit, says -- to me -- that the default of giving hours worth of homework every day, to every student, is out of line with reality. Students who need help understanding a concept should get just that: help. Not a worksheet full of problems they don't understand. I understand that you have a "math-brain" and that working on math problems that you don't understand is equivocal to playing the guitar and practicing jujitsu, but that is not how it is for every child. Which is why -- and I'm stealing this argument directly from our favorite author, Alfie Kohn -- the default needs to be changed. I don't see you arguing that homework needs to come from every class every night, but the article discusses a school who is merely swinging the pendulum all the way to the other side. As much as I think the amount of homework that goes home currently is a bad thing, I do not think that *no homework* is the answer (or a good thing.) Homework is not being used as a tool. If homework does have benefits, they are being hidden by the current way homework is being utilized.
The problem I see with your argument:
is the need for those to be classroom learning experiences. In all of your examples it is the exception, not the rule, who learns what you listed on their own -- without a teacher. Reading is a cross-curricular activity. If a student does not know how to read effectively, sending him home with a history book will not teach him anything. I'm not sure if this is hyperbole, but if your argument is truly that beating one's head against a wall until they magically understand mathematical concepts is how education happens, you are sadly mistaken. Again, the person who can pick up a musical instrument and merely "practice it" to become proficient is the exception, not the rule. All of the examples you listed are things that need to be taught, not merely learned.
There is a difference between homework and what you are describing. Homework is not merely practice. In theory, perhaps, but not in practice. If a students lacks understanding of the concept she is "practicing", they will not magically come to an understanding after many hours, they will be repeating mistakes. The idea of "homework" needs a proper definition to further this discourse. Of course, students must practice their skills. They obviously need to learn life itself is not 9-5, and there will always be "work" that needs to be done "at home." However, homework, as it stands, does much more to stifle the modal student's drive to learn than further any learning that has or hasn't taken place.
I will continue to disagree with your assertion that "learning" (in its most general sense, as it's being used) is a reinforce-able, behavioristic ability. Rote memorization is -- and I would argue it is a stretch to consider that "learning" at least in any deep-thinking sense of the term -- reinforce-able. Essay writing is not a behavior. 3 times 3 is a constant. Writing an essay is not. Analogically, free throw shooting is reinforce-able; it is constant. Running a motion offense (continual on and off the ball screening) is not constant or consistent; coaches have players practice the motion offense, not so they memorize the way the defense reacts, but to prepare them for a game situation. The free throw line never moves, just like the answer to 3 times 3 never changes. The motion offense is always reacting to a defense, the same way a student reacts to the subject matter when writing an essay. When practicing free throws, one is reinforcing muscle memory: a behavior. When practicing the motion offense, one is learning to react to an opposing force.
:)), it can't reinforce learning that hasn't taken place.
Now, to look at the idea of reinforcing behaviors -- in particular, math skills. If a student does not understand a math formula, and is assigned 20 problems using that formula for homework, I see no benefits coming from that homework. If a student doesn't understand how to do the problems, I can think of a few things that will happen that night. They may: a) teach themselves to get the correct answer without using the formula, thereby stunting their future learning, b) not do the problems, c) swear off math (or the particular teacher) all together. What if the student seeks guidance from a parent on math problems they don't understand? Well, do we want teachers teaching our students or parents? After all, aren't we trusting that the teachers know "how to teach" -- and aren't they the ones who are certified to do so? Parents are good at getting answers, they (most, obviously) are not trained to teach the steps and use the formulas involved (in this example.)
The problem I am pointing out is that "homework" can only reinforce "learning" (notice the quotes
I agree with you that there are two types of homework; I just don't agree on your two types. The way I see it, busy work is "learning reinforcement." The kind of homework I will be assigning is what I would consider "discovery homework." As in, "Today we discussed ______. Tonight, find an example of ______ in the newspaper, on the internet, or in a discussion with your parents." Meaning: think, apply.
Good teachers (as much as I hate make rules for good teachers) design lessons that set aside time for both "guided practice" and "independent practice." If a student shows a lack of understanding of a concept during either of these two, the worst course of action I can think of would be to send that student home to practice his or her misunderstanding. If a student shows understanding, who am I -- who are we -- to say, "Good job, you've got it! Now take an hour out of your afternoon to keep doing it."
I wonder how they are going to explain the drop in grades? Probably blame it on the teachers or some such.
"Researchers have been far from unanimous in their assessments of the strengths and weaknesses of homework as an instructional technique." - Journal of Educational Psychology
"Harris Cooper and his colleagues conducted a study in 1998 with both younger and older students (from grades 2 through 12), using both grades and standardized test scores to measure achievement. They also looked at how much homework was assigned by the teacher as well as at how much time students spent on it. Thus, there were eight separate results to be reported.
Younger Students
Effect on grades of amount of homework assigned: No significant relationship.
Effect on test scores of amount of homework assigned: No sig. relationship.
Effect on grades of amount of homework done: Negative relationship
Effect on test scores of amount of homework done: No sig. relationship.
Older Students
Effect on grades of amount of homework assigned: No significant relationship.
Effect on test scores of amount of homework assigned: No sig. relationship.
Effect on grades of amount of homework done: Positive relationship
Effect on test scores of amount of homework done: No sig. relationship."
from pp 25, 33 The Homework Myth by Alfie Kohn
Learning is not a behavior. Speaking of it in behaviorist terms such as "reinforce" shows how uneducated you are on the subject./ 0738210854/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-1516831-6709560?ie= UTF8&s=books&qid=1173020107&sr=8-1 Read this book. It breaks down the argument for people who have not done the research.
The research to support your claims does not exist.
http://www.amazon.com/Homework-Myth-Alfie-Kohn/dp
Why does it seem that the USA is progressively skimping on education? Is it any wonder that India and Japan (I am sure there are others) are surpassing us in general academic, and therefore work, achievement? Because homework is not educational. The Homework Myth by Alfie Kohn is a great read on this subject. Be prepared to have your assumptions challenged.
sorry, i was wrong. it wasn't "record" it was the current best-selling product online. "Piper Jaffray analyst Gene Munster asked Apple executives about the Apple TV and projected sales and noted that it is the best-selling product on Apple's Web site right now." http://www.ecommercetimes.com/story/lfWh8MAciUU2mW /Apple-to-Hide-Specific-Apple-TV-Sales-Numbers.xht ml
my bad.
"No, I don't think people should cite it, and I don't think people should cite Britannica, either -- the error rate there isn't very good. People shouldn't be citing encyclopedias in the first place. Wikipedia and other encyclopedias should be solid enough to give good, solid background information to inform your studies for a deeper level. And really, it's more reliable to read Wikipedia for background than to read random Web pages on the Internet." -Jimmy Wales
took away from the Apple TV announcement the apple tv that set the record for apple's online sales?
2.0 was a terrible release of OS X -- check out the mozillazine support forums -- i was running about a 25% chance of getting 2.0 to startup without having to force quit. started with RC 3 (obviously) but up until then it wasn't doing it. oh well, i had always wanted to give camino a fair shot on a consistent basis....and it's been performing beautifully so far.
the release of safari 3 with leopard (whenver that ends up coming out...)
i think i'll keep my text ads (and my sanity) thank you very much. that alone is enough that i'll never try it out.
don't know if this has been mentioned, but if you use itunes to transfer songs to your shuffle, you can set the EQ for the song in itunes and the shuffle will play it with that eq. -russ
what do you know? i was right. 1337 is dork code. live long and prosper. dork.
if concerts were traded on vinyl or SACD i guess i would think about it. but since the story is about mp3, i will continue to talk about computer filetypes. that's why i listen to lossy on my shuffle, cuz i use headphones. but i listen to lossless on my "good system"
i don't even know/care what 1337 means. dork code for something stupid. you keep listening to that shit that sounds like shit and i'll keep it lossless. thanks. and they're logitech. dick.
i don't listen to on my computer. i listen to FLACs and SHNs. the only time i bother with mp3 is for my ipod shuffle.
"Lets face it, downloading a single song here and there isn't too bad with P2P. But trying to download an entire album is a pain." I've never downloaded a single song. i download album at a time or discography at a time. i have the feeling you are the exception, not the rule.