The inclusion of Dell could force other 2nd and 3rd tier OEMS to start shipping Linux. For example the guys who put out like 5000-10000 boxes a month. I believe this would create the needed intertia for more end users....One the other hand
This provides a convenient way for M$ to say, "Look even Dell is shipping Linux" and after the trial Dell can say, "We will continue to ship Linux per special demand in required minimum quantities of XX, but we save our "enterprise hardware" for NT" again....more FUD??
You're not addressing the technically stupid here. A majority of the readers ala Linux users of Slashdot have not yet been users of MS-Life-For-Dummies 2000 (TM) where all computer users worship the "Magic" that the "wizards" at microsoft must have used to develop such "Awesome" applications and OSs.
Give me a break. M$ innovates nothing. GREAT IDEA GUYS!!! Let's put NT, a single user OS on NETWORKS!! Whoever thought that one up should be a comedian....
Get with it M$ apologists.. you are so pathetically easy to see through...posting on slashdot does not make you a member of the Linux community any more than being a member of MSN makes you a web-geek. Some of us program because we truly enjoy it. It also happens to be a job for many of us. Not the other way around. It's possible to make a damn fine living and still take pride in your work.
M$ is pathetic. Faking videos, arrogantly walking around saying "Linux is a hobbiests OS" But when you need a scapegoat... "Linux is feature rich, developed by a vast army of programmers" Which is it? Again your stuck for words...
M$ is going down....maybe they should just stick to marketing and get out of OSs all together because they are a walking disaster.
It's just amazing how such a brain-dead organization get's publications ala ZD-Net to print their scoop. No one in IT takes ZD Net seriously anymore.... like I said M$...stick to marketing....it's what you do best anyway.
I was one of the first non-Japanese students of Masaaki Hastsumi (Bujinkan Ninpo)a Japanese martial art. After the media "discovered" Ninpo they bastardized the hell out of it and all of us who had been in it for years welcomed the new people but those who cam in a few years after us were pissed off that "their" art was becoming known by everybody.
In the final analysis it's the artist, not the art and it's the user, not the OS.
This is a case where the author of the article in PC-Week was most likely a Windows person who wants to be a Unix person so throwing out neat words like vi make him feel so important...;-)
While it is most appreciated that you are testing Linux esp. the new kernel, a few point need to be made.
"The community developing for Linux moves at a snail's pace."
Applications dealing with user friendliness have accelerated much quicker than their Microsoft counterparts. Keep in mind that Linux is a multi-user OS (as compared to Microsoft's single user OS, NT) and the kernel will not be released until it is ready to be. Commercial interests are nice on the desktop but they do not effect the development of the kernel as the Linux community is under no commercial pressure to release beta quality products under the guise of being enterprise ready. Kernel development typically is much slower than application development. Already both the KDE and GNOME desktops have more functionality than the GUI of MS-Windows.
Installing Linux from a raw kernel is something that IS difficult. But you can not classify installing a raw development kernel with a commercial product release. I can install a Red Hat 5.2 server in 13 minutes and have it network ready with only one reboot. The same can not be said for WindowsNT. My 8 year old daughter installed Red Hat Linux at her school for science day. No help from a grown-up needed. Red Hat 6.0 will have an even easier install. Again the point is do not paint Linux in a broad brush as Linux is a comprehensive operating system with many facets.
"However, I find it difficult to applaud a product for mimicking the capabilities of its competitors--"
This is an interesting comment as Linux has been 64 bit on the alpha since 1995. Microsoft WindowsNT is still not at 64 bit. The clustering ability in NT is little more than a fallback for overload and does not compare with the PVM and SMP abilities of Linux. Clustering means something different to a Linux engineer than to a Windows MCSE.
While it is true that may OS vendors have been providing SMP for a while, hardware specifications had been closed up until recently making development much slower than needed.
"Like Linux, Samba requires IT managers to dig into source code to master it. We could reconfigure Samba 2.0 servers using the simple new Web interface, but for more advanced configuration chores, such as the reconfiguration of file cache memory, we had to use VI editor to manually tweak our settings for optimal performance."
Any tweaks that are needed now will be fixed in the commercial releases of Linux coming up. By the way the smb.conf file is not source code it is simply an ascii text configuration file.
"Although administration lags, technical support option for Linux are improving."
I'm not sure by what you mean by administration? Does Linux (as any good OS) should have a technically competent individual to administer it. LinuxConf (available at http://www.solucorp.qc.ca/linuxconf/) is a fairly comprehensive administration solution allowing everything from email,user,firewall,ftp,SAMABA,Apache,virtual domains, etc. I haven't seen anything from Microsoft that comes close either on the NT4.0 or the NT5.0 beta with it's management console. Caldera has the LISA tool as well.
I commend you for your efforts at evaluating Linux however I would ask you to evaluate all the possibilities available for it.
Good feedback on some of the technical aspects of your article can be glanced at by viewing http://www.slashdot.org and look at the comments section. Just a warning though...some people there can be rather harsh so you may have to dig for the gold nuggets in the mudslinging.;-)
Obviously this person doesn't understand the rules of debate, logic and rhetoric. typical of a M$ user...I'm on the side of the big bully becuase I have no personality of my own.....
Was it not Alchin and Sherrif Notingham himself that said all Linux people are are Robin Hood and his Merry Band (i.e. just hobbiests) One side of their mouth they say..."Linux is the invention of one person." The next week it's "Linux is the creation of a vast army of programmers."
WHICH IS IT? Either Linux is a "feature rich and sophisticated operating system" or it's a "hobbiest OS"
I agree....Microsoft can't have it both ways.... All the manipulation in the media they are doing right now is going to backfire.... for one simple reason.....
You can't fool all of the people...all of the time. (although they sure would like to)
Are IS managers and the like really going to believe the ZD-Nets and Jesse Berst and his ilk of the hit-and-run style of journalism with no credability after the trial and Microsoft suddenly says..."Well we were competing Linux against NT4.0 not against Windows2000....Windows2000 is so much better (and then they will use meaningless buzzwords like "feature-rich", "discoverable", "interface-enrichment" et. al)
So to the previous poster on/. I agree 100% Microsoft can't have it both ways.
Let's see.... I can put Linux on a floppy disk as a mini kernel...I can put QNX on a floppy disk as a minikernel.... M$?? for Windows2000 better get at least 400 floppies....
Clue on to this M$... In 3 weeks is the kick off of a national advertising campaign for a major reseller featuring Linux....Once the cat is out of the bag there is much difficulty in putting it back....
Clue 2 for M$ Operating Systems ARE a commodity. Get used to it as your products are nothing special... ask any real economist and they will say the same thing...
As for ZD-Net....they lost credibility a long time ago with their Stick-the-finger-in-the-wind and see which way the bandwagon is blowing (or what M$ says should be printed)
I could go on but why? A majority of/. readers know the truth as do many IT managers out there...does M$ really think they will try Linux and then go back to the enless upgrade cycle of M$?? Not likely...
Anyone here have any experiences with ATI video cards? I use the Mach 64 Rage Pro (8MB) card in my Red Hat Linux Box and it seems to work well. I would be interested if anyone has had experience with them from a server or workstation perspective.
MS C++ does not conform to ANSI stadards. and the Unix/Linux GNAT compiler has both ANSI and ISO ratings. in Fact Ada is the ONLY OO language to have both ISO and ANSI standard marks. Nothing about M$ platforms is standard.Not even the TCP/IP stack....jees get a life.
Did I misread? Did Jesse say he's been using Linux? I know for a fact that is untrue as my brother works for ZD-NET and they don't use Linux on their desktops there in Washington State....give me a break....Maybe I misread....I've been up for 28 hours so that's possible...
Cheers,
Nick
ZD-NEt..... I have one simple phrase for you...
on
ZDNet Does Linux
·
· Score: 1
(in reference to their hit-and-run style of journalism)
If you have no accountability....you have no credibility...
Just for info, our company uses ICEWM and GNOME. I like IceWM becuase it is simple, fast, and no bloat. GNOME works well with it and we don't even bother to install AFterStep, or WindowMaker etc.
If Red Hat just ships with E, GNOME, ICEWM, and KDE I'll be a happy camper.
Let me assure you that many of the errors in GNOME pre-releases are being fixed. I've spoken (and emailed bug reports) to many of the folks at RH-LAbs and The Midnight Commander people regarding it's issues. Frederico has been doing been improvements in GMC and it should be "Pretty Damn Cool" (tm) I just like GNOME better than KDE because KDE looks to much like the TK widget set and it is so blocky looking. I also like the GTK/GDK API better... just my HO.. KDE has some cool stuff though... I like the menu editor!
Couple things here. First I'm using LinuxConf ver. linuxconf-1.13r12-1 It is your responsibility to upgrade it...not theirs.
Customer Service, (even they admit) has been cruddy. They are in the process of restructering their department to provide the enterpise level support they have been talking about. (as a test) I recently spoke to a staff member at Red Hat regarding support and was told to contact a support partner. When I asked for the names of them he told me to look at the web site.
If I did that I would soon be out of business. I suspect that Red Hat has been growing through some growing pains. As the owner of a technology company myself, I know what they are going through.
RE: FTP Sites. They could stand to put up two more servers on site in a redundant array of many gigs. that should suffice and wouldn't be prohibitively expensive.
Price: I would not mind spending $100.00 for a Linux distribution. I might be mistaken on this but I've heard Caldera is going to go to a licensing system (why I have no idea, I think this would be very bad)??
Cheers,
Nick
PS: M$ is a brilliant example of a single company, using free resources, bundling them together in 20 year old technology and markting them to the public for an outlandish fee.
My understanding is that they are releasing it 6.0 because of the new kernel, the finalized version of GNOME 1.0 (which has some really nice code by the way), and a rewritten manual, and other features. The rumour is that the installation will be somewhat different as well. Some programs will be dropped and others will be included that normally havn't been in Red Hat releases. After all I really didn't see much difference between Red Hat 5.0,5.1,and 5.2 Thanks God that we're more concerned with good code and functionality than backwords compatability.:-) It should be a kick-A#&! release. I guess we'll just have to see.
Hey easy there....we used to use the US Army jump School...I had a chance to work with the 82 jump instructors...nice lot... Of course being a former USMC Captain and running a STA Platoon, we had a lot of fun in the outdoors with the US Army... You guys in the Army had better chow halls than us thats for sure...;-)
I have to laugh at this one. My company has replaced over 190 NT servers with Linux. The power and functionality is unmatched. Could you please show me how to administer a disk quota in NT? HAHAHA or administer a MPI or PVM cluster? hahaha Could you show me how to lock down the desktop so that a windows user can't type a del tree command? HAHAHA How about that NT5.0 (sorry... I mean windoze-2000 management console.??) what a joke! LinuxConf blows it away! Please get out of puberty, then talk to us.... By the way, were set to replace 3,250 NT/Windows Boxes with Linux for an international engineering company... so bite on that! Oh by the way...WANG Global has just signed a contract with Corel Computer for 15,000 Units.... NT? keep dreaming....
I like C, and Ada95 binded to GTK libs. It rocks! And the apps are robust as hell! Ada95 is used for all our apps and GTK makes it all the better....!:-)
Slashdot Mirror
The inclusion of Dell could force other 2nd and 3rd tier OEMS to start shipping Linux. For example the guys who put out like 5000-10000 boxes a month. I believe this would create the needed intertia for more end users....One the other hand
This provides a convenient way for M$ to say, "Look even Dell is shipping Linux" and after the trial Dell can say, "We will continue to ship Linux per special demand in required minimum quantities of XX, but we save our "enterprise hardware" for NT" again....more FUD??
Nick
LSG
You're not addressing the technically stupid here. A majority of the readers ala Linux users of Slashdot have not yet been users of MS-Life-For-Dummies 2000 (TM) where all computer users worship the "Magic" that the "wizards" at microsoft must have used to develop such "Awesome" applications and OSs.
Give me a break. M$ innovates nothing. GREAT IDEA GUYS!!! Let's put NT, a single user OS on NETWORKS!! Whoever thought that one up should be a comedian....
Get with it M$ apologists.. you are so pathetically easy to see through...posting on slashdot does not make you a member of the Linux community any more than being a member of MSN makes you a web-geek. Some of us program because we truly enjoy it. It also happens to be a job for many of us. Not the other way around. It's possible to make a damn fine living and still take pride in your work.
M$ is pathetic. Faking videos, arrogantly walking around saying "Linux is a hobbiests OS" But when you need a scapegoat... "Linux is feature rich, developed by a vast army of programmers" Which is it? Again your stuck for words...
M$ is going down....maybe they should just stick to marketing and get out of OSs all together because they are a walking disaster.
It's just amazing how such a brain-dead organization get's publications ala ZD-Net to print their scoop. No one in IT takes ZD Net seriously anymore.... like I said M$...stick to marketing....it's what you do best anyway.
Nick
LSG
Just curious if anyone here has taken the RHCE course yet?
Nick
LSG
I was one of the first non-Japanese students of Masaaki Hastsumi (Bujinkan Ninpo)a Japanese martial art. After the media "discovered" Ninpo they bastardized the hell out of it and all of us who had been in it for years welcomed the new people but those who cam in a few years after us were pissed off that "their" art was becoming known by everybody.
In the final analysis it's the artist, not the art
and it's the user, not the OS.
Nick
LSG
Actually it is my understanding that Red Hat 6.0 will have an improved interface for install routines...anyone else hear about this???
Nick
LSG
Remember what I said about a month ago, M$ will say "Linux is a worthy competitor to NT4.0"
After the trial they will say
"Linux is nothing compared to Windows2000"
and of course ZD-Net and it's ilk will fall in lock step.
Trust me. This is exactly how it will go down.
Nick
LSG
This is a case where the author of the article in PC-Week was most likely a Windows person who wants to be a Unix person so throwing out neat words like vi make him feel so important...;-)
Nick
LSG
Mr.Chowdhry,
;-)
While it is most appreciated that you are testing Linux esp. the new
kernel, a few point need to be made.
"The community developing for
Linux moves at a snail's pace."
Applications dealing with user friendliness have accelerated much
quicker than their Microsoft counterparts. Keep in mind that Linux is a
multi-user OS (as compared to Microsoft's single user OS, NT) and the
kernel will not be released until it is ready to be. Commercial
interests are nice on the desktop but they do not effect the development
of the kernel as the Linux community is under no commercial pressure to
release beta quality products under the guise of being enterprise ready.
Kernel development typically is much slower than application
development. Already both the KDE and GNOME desktops have more
functionality than the GUI of MS-Windows.
Installing Linux from a raw kernel is something that IS difficult. But
you can not classify installing a raw development kernel with a
commercial product release. I can install a Red Hat 5.2 server in 13
minutes and have it network ready with only one reboot. The same can not
be said for WindowsNT.
My 8 year old daughter installed Red Hat Linux at her school for science
day. No help from a grown-up needed. Red Hat 6.0 will have an even
easier install.
Again the point is do not paint Linux in a broad brush as Linux is a
comprehensive operating system with many facets.
"However, I
find it difficult to applaud a product
for mimicking the capabilities of its
competitors--"
This is an interesting comment as Linux has been 64 bit on the alpha
since 1995. Microsoft WindowsNT is still not at 64 bit. The clustering
ability in NT is little more than a fallback for overload and does not
compare with the PVM and SMP abilities of Linux. Clustering means
something different to a Linux engineer than to a Windows MCSE.
While it is true that may OS vendors have been providing SMP for a
while, hardware specifications had been closed up until recently making
development much slower than needed.
"Like Linux, Samba requires IT managers to dig into source code to
master it. We could reconfigure Samba 2.0 servers using the simple new
Web interface, but for more advanced configuration chores, such as the
reconfiguration of file cache memory, we had to use VI editor to
manually tweak our settings for optimal performance."
Any tweaks that are needed now will be fixed in the commercial releases
of Linux coming up. By the way the smb.conf file is not source code it
is simply an ascii text configuration file.
"Although administration lags, technical support option for Linux
are improving."
I'm not sure by what you mean by administration? Does Linux (as any good
OS) should have a technically competent individual to administer it.
LinuxConf (available at http://www.solucorp.qc.ca/linuxconf/) is a
fairly comprehensive administration solution allowing everything from
email,user,firewall,ftp,SAMABA,Apache,virtual domains, etc.
I haven't seen anything from Microsoft that comes close either on the
NT4.0 or the NT5.0 beta with it's management console.
Caldera has the LISA tool as well.
I commend you for your efforts at evaluating Linux however I would ask
you to evaluate all the possibilities available for it.
Good feedback on some of the technical aspects of your article can be
glanced at by viewing http://www.slashdot.org and look at the comments
section. Just a warning though...some people there can be rather harsh
so you may have to dig for the gold nuggets in the mudslinging.
Take Care,
Sincerely,
Nicholas Donovan
Linux Systems Group
Obviously this person doesn't understand the rules of debate, logic and rhetoric. typical of a M$ user...I'm on the side of the big bully becuase I have no personality of my own.....
Cheers,
Nick
LSG
Was it not Alchin and Sherrif Notingham himself that said all Linux people are are Robin Hood and his Merry Band (i.e. just hobbiests) One side of their mouth they say..."Linux is the invention of one person." The next week it's "Linux is the creation of a vast army of programmers."
/. I agree 100% Microsoft can't have it both ways.
/. readers know the truth as do many IT managers out there...does M$ really think they will try Linux and then go back to the enless upgrade cycle of M$?? Not likely...
WHICH IS IT?
Either Linux is a "feature rich and sophisticated operating system" or it's a "hobbiest OS"
I agree....Microsoft can't have it both ways....
All the manipulation in the media they are doing right now is going to backfire....
for one simple reason.....
You can't fool all of the people...all of the time. (although they sure would like to)
Are IS managers and the like really going to believe the ZD-Nets and Jesse Berst and his ilk of the hit-and-run style of journalism with no credability after the trial and Microsoft suddenly says..."Well we were competing Linux against NT4.0 not against Windows2000....Windows2000 is so much better (and then they will use meaningless buzzwords like "feature-rich", "discoverable", "interface-enrichment" et. al)
So to the previous poster on
Let's see.... I can put Linux on a floppy disk as a mini kernel...I can put QNX on a floppy disk as a minikernel.... M$?? for Windows2000 better get at least 400 floppies....
Clue on to this M$... In 3 weeks is the kick off of a national advertising campaign for a major reseller featuring Linux....Once the cat is out of the bag there is much difficulty in putting it back....
Clue 2 for M$ Operating Systems ARE a commodity. Get used to it as your products are nothing special... ask any real economist and they will say the same thing...
As for ZD-Net....they lost credibility a long time ago with their Stick-the-finger-in-the-wind and see which way the bandwagon is blowing (or what M$ says should be printed)
I could go on but why? A majority of
Cheers,
Nick
LSG
PS: Too many donuts and coffee this morning
Hmmm...what would be a good card for a Linux Workstation (preferably 1280x1024 and above) ;-)
Nick
LSG
Anyone here have any experiences with ATI video cards? I use the Mach 64 Rage Pro (8MB) card in my Red Hat Linux Box and it seems to work well.
I would be interested if anyone has had experience with them from a server or workstation perspective.
Thanks
MS C++ does not conform to ANSI stadards. and the Unix/Linux GNAT compiler has both ANSI and ISO ratings. in Fact Ada is the ONLY OO language to have both ISO and ANSI standard marks.
Nothing about M$ platforms is standard.Not even the TCP/IP stack....jees get a life.
Nick
LSG
Did I misread? Did Jesse say he's been using Linux? I know for a fact that is untrue as my brother works for ZD-NET and they don't use Linux on their desktops there in Washington State....give me a break....Maybe I misread....I've been up for 28 hours so that's possible...
Cheers,
Nick
(in reference to their hit-and-run style of journalism)
If you have no accountability....you have no credibility...
Cheers,
Nick
I suspect the guy who said that is an M$ plant....
Trying to cause more rift in the community.
You'll be seeing alot more of that soon.
Nick
LSG
I suspect the guy who said that is an M$ plant....
Trying to cause more rift in the community.
You'll be seeing alot more of that soon.
Just for info, our company uses ICEWM and GNOME.
I like IceWM becuase it is simple, fast, and no bloat. GNOME works well with it and we don't even bother to install AFterStep, or WindowMaker etc.
If Red Hat just ships with E, GNOME, ICEWM, and KDE I'll be a happy camper.
Nick
LSG
Let me assure you that many of the errors in GNOME pre-releases are being fixed. I've spoken (and emailed bug reports) to many of the folks at RH-LAbs and The Midnight Commander people regarding it's issues. Frederico has been doing been improvements in GMC and it should be "Pretty Damn Cool" (tm) I just like GNOME better than KDE because KDE looks to much like the TK widget set and it is so blocky looking. I also like the GTK/GDK API better ... just my HO.. KDE has some cool stuff though... I like the menu editor!
Cheers,
Nick
LSG
Couple things here. First I'm using LinuxConf
ver. linuxconf-1.13r12-1 It is your responsibility to upgrade it...not theirs.
Customer Service, (even they admit) has been cruddy. They are in the process of restructering their department to provide the enterpise level support they have been talking about. (as a test) I recently spoke to a staff member at Red Hat regarding support and was told to contact a support partner. When I asked for the names of them he told me to look at the web site.
If I did that I would soon be out of business.
I suspect that Red Hat has been growing through some growing pains. As the owner of a technology company myself, I know what they are going through.
RE: FTP Sites. They could stand to put up two more servers on site in a redundant array of many gigs. that should suffice and wouldn't be prohibitively expensive.
Price: I would not mind spending $100.00 for a Linux distribution. I might be mistaken on this but I've heard Caldera is going to go to a licensing system (why I have no idea, I think this would be very bad)??
Cheers,
Nick
PS: M$ is a brilliant example of a single company, using free resources, bundling them together in 20 year old technology and markting them to the public for an outlandish fee.
My understanding is that they are releasing it 6.0 because of the new kernel, the finalized version of GNOME 1.0 (which has some really nice code by the way), and a rewritten manual, and other features. The rumour is that the installation will be somewhat different as well. Some programs will be dropped and others will be included that normally havn't been in Red Hat releases. After all I really didn't see much difference between Red Hat 5.0,5.1,and 5.2 Thanks God that we're more concerned with good code and functionality than backwords compatability. :-) It should be a kick-A#&! release. I guess we'll just have to see.
Cheers,
Nick
ACtually I use a modified version of ICE WM and GNOME on our corporate desktops. It works well and is fast.
Nick
LSG
Hey easy there....we used to use the US Army jump School...I had a chance to work with the 82 jump instructors...nice lot... Of course being a former USMC Captain and running a STA Platoon, we had a lot of fun in the outdoors with the US Army... You guys in the Army had better chow halls than us thats for sure... ;-)
Nick
LSG
I have to laugh at this one. My company has replaced over 190 NT servers with Linux. The power and functionality is unmatched. Could you please show me how to administer a disk quota in NT? HAHAHA or administer a MPI or PVM cluster? hahaha
Could you show me how to lock down the desktop so that a windows user can't type a del tree command? HAHAHA
How about that NT5.0 (sorry... I mean windoze-2000 management console.??) what a joke! LinuxConf blows it away! Please get out of puberty, then talk to us....
By the way, were set to replace 3,250 NT/Windows Boxes with Linux for an international engineering company... so bite on that! Oh by the way...WANG Global has just signed a contract with Corel Computer for 15,000 Units....
NT? keep dreaming....
Thanks, I needed a good laugh.
Nick
LSG
I like C, and Ada95 binded to GTK libs. :-)
It rocks! And the apps are robust as hell!
Ada95 is used for all our apps and GTK makes it all the better....!
Nick
LSG