I agree completely. I get FAR more done in the same time using Linux. I could use either for my desktop at work or home. In fact they have a standardized install of Windows at work that they'd prefer people use. I've used it, but it was slower. I've been in the computer industry for 30 years, and I've used LOTS of different systems. The only thing that MS products have over the competition is that they have locked things in so tightly that when some dumb ass creates something that can't be used without a MS product, you will probably be better off using the damn MS product. Actually, just shoot the dumb ass that made it with an Smith & Wesson product. Problem solved.:)
Support for your employees?? Might as well buy bras for your female employees and cups for your male employees as spend money on Microsoft support. They'll get much better support that way. You even get better information about FOS when you google than you do about MSOffice.
My Dell Latitude D820 is loaded up with Ubuntu Intrepid Ibex. My co-workers use Windows. Yesterday I got our department Sprint data card. They told me it would probably take me a bit to get it working on the laptop (because it took them a while to get the driver installed and setup to run). So I took the card and inserted it into the PCMCIA slot. In about 20 seconds (without my doing ANYTHING else) it was connected to Sprint's network and I was using it like the laptop was born to use it.
I use it for doing every task that I have to do for work. There are over ten thousand windows users here at work. We went through a big change from Groupwise to Exchange and Outlook. I use Evolution, and I get complete access to everything I need - scheduling, email, the works.
When people say that Linux is not ready for business use, they smoking somethin' that making them see the world in a false and distorted way. I'll never go back to Windows.
It's not difficult, it's just screwed up. Why should they have so many differing levels of the OS other than marketing and a way to make more money? You get people in with the crappy starter versions, then when they realize what a piece of crap it is, they go to the next level, always paying more to do it, and getting just slightly less crappy software all along the upgrade path until you buy the top of the line crap that's less crappy, but still crap, but you *feel* better about it because you paid more.
Bait and Switch is illegal, but this is a similar marketing method. Bait and switch is getting them in with a low-cost item, then getting them to buy the higher priced one. With the Windoze marketing, they don't switch, they just get you to buy an upgrade. Same basic strategy. Different, but unfortunately legal, method of execution.
It's also an appeal to customer vanity, jut like fashion. What makes a pair of faded, beat-up, torn jeans from a trendy shop more valuable than a pair of jeans from a thrift shop? The price is higher because of the designer label. "My jeans are better than yours because I paid more!"
Same thing for versions of Windoze. "I've got the Uber-Premium, Ultimate, Kick-Ass, Expensive version of Windows on *MY* machine! What's on yours?"
Consumer stupidity and corporate greed are what have put our society in the crapper. If you don't think I'm talking about you, you're probably wrong.
For those who are die-hard Apple fans (and they are the largest group of iPhone purchasers), the only way to make an iPhone Killer is to have Apple be the one to make it.
Let's face it people, if Apple came out with Apple iFeces, there would be a line around the block of Apple fans eager to buy it on the first day.
Most people leaving a religion do so at a time and for a reason that helps them make their "statement" against the religion. They usually have plenty of other reasons (founded or unfounded), and pick one that they feel will best play out for themselves.
Interestingly enough, most of the people that leave the Mormon Church don't have their names taken from the records of the church so that at some later time if they need some help (welfare assistance), it is easier to get. That's pure hypocrisy. Who needs hypocrites?
I'm fine with people leaving a religion. The Mormon Church doesn't make them remain members. Not only will it not make them remain members, but if they ask to be removed from the records, they comply with the request. And even those who are most vocal against it can be welcomed back "into the fold." (Of course, you can't still be against the church and be welcomed back in at the same time. Every group has it limits on participation criteria, including your local Credit Union. You can't rob a bank and then deposit that money in an account there if they know you are the thief.)
If someone leaves the Mormon Church over Prop 8, they obviously don't have much in common with the tenants of the religion. Kind of like a Jew leaving their synagogue because they weren't going to serve a Christmas ham at a Hanukkah celebration.
Birds of a feather flock together. I don't usually see to many ostriches mingling with seagulls. Do you?
Reminds me more of the Biology teacher confiscating the religious text (in what ever form) from the student and sending them to detention for being stupid, writing a letter to the parents telling them that there is to be absolutely no religion in the schools, and calling the ACLU to sue the author for creating an threatening work environment for the teacher.
I'm 51 also and I'm doing web work that is more advanced than most all of the other 200 web developers in the department. I also am asked by others about how to do *this*, or why is *that* not working, even in things that I haven't worked on much for *years*. I also get along with more people better than most. I learn new technologies quickly and I'm a better problem solver than most. Maybe I'm rare, but I don't think a generalization that older IT folks fall behind is valid. I also know other old duffers like me that aren't falling behind. I think it depends on what you do on your job. I have never been tied down to COBOL programming (or anything like that). I think it is what you are doing on your job that makes a big difference, and that goes more to the employer.
http://www.youperview.com/ accepts longer and higher resolution (quality) videos, and you can make money from the video. Since it is a pay-per-view site, you can have a preview video that is available to all, but to view the complete video one must pay (and the price is set by the video producer, not the youperview site). The preview can be embedded into a web page, and you can send people to the youperview site to view the full video. As with any video, you probably want to tailor your video to play nicely, without taking lots of time to download so that one doesn't have to view lots of pauses as the large file buffers more to be viewed.
I've NEVER understood that. Why throw money down the toilet just to reduce the amount of taxes you pay on your income? If I have $100 that I invest for a loss, and loose it all, isn't that worse that paying $90 in taxes on the $100 and keeping $10?
Well, I'm not sure what your point was, but google found only 4 references to "the_wombie", and I haven't a clue what/who "the_wombie" refers to. So you could be right, or maybe you just proved my point - again.
Gnome and KDE (Not Aqua of course) are the most ugly non-streamlined GUI's available.
Someone needs to look a little closer at how one can customize these interfaces. My Gnome desktop looks very much like Aqua. So if you like Aqua, you can like Gnome (or KDE). The nice thing is that these interfaces are configurable.
One's ignorance goes a long way towards showing one's... well... ignorance.
In this day of virtual, all of this could be done with starting a new virtual machine for each user. Once the user is gone, so it the virtual machine. Yes, it would take longer to boot than windows 3.1, but you could have a second virtual waiting in the wings for when the logout happens, then start another one up to be waiting for when the current one is logged out.
There's always more than one way to skin a cat. If you like to have the cat screaming and scratching while you skin it, that is possible, but I prefer to skin my cats when they are dead. People too often want the elegant solution when the right solution is far simpler.
The DRM will be such that you have to use their player, or a player that is compliant with their DRM. It will then not play until you pay - that video for that player on that machine.
Yes, someone could crack it - theoretically. So what.
Don't buy DRM anything!!! It is just heroin and crack for the entertainment industry. If they think they can get away with it because people are buying it, they they will continue to do it. If they get no revenue from it, they will discontinue it. That doesn't mean that they won't try to get your money some other way, but if they see that people don't want DRM crap, and it's not profitable, they will stop it. We need to make them give us what we want, not what they want to give to us.
Don't pay the high rates that are charged for the music (i.e. don't buy their CDs).
Don't buy DRM music.
Do go to your local library and check out the CDs that you like, listen to them and return them.
Don't buy DRM music.
Do buy from independents (where your money really does get to the artists, the artists that are really putting out good music).
Don't buy DRM music.
The only way to make the mafia arm of the music industry realize that they will not get your money is to stop giving them your money, but you must also not abuse copyrights so that they don't think that you're going to steal from the real pirates (RIAA and their associated labels). By all means use the law to your favor and keep fair use alive. Use the library. If they only get 1/20 the sales, but there is no pirating, illegal sharing, etc., then maybe they will wake up. But if you give them money, you are only feeding their habit. Make them stop cold turkey. They need to enter rehab. They are addicted to the cash flow. Just say no to expensive or encumbered music!
The Japanese make swords (and chisels, etc.) by pulling (stretching) the metal lengthwise, then folding it back on itself and hammering it back together. If there were carbon bubbles within this steel, then the stretching (after the hundreds (if not thousands) of times it is pulled outwards could form the tubes that get stretched and lengthened each time they pull the metal, getting smaller and longer with each pull. The secret to the Damascus swords, if made in a similar manner, would be in creating the Wootz steel.
His wife is responsible for his philanthropy. I don't think he was even someone you could consider a philanthropist until he got married. His fortune was his scorecard in the game of life. It was the only way he could show he was better than everyone else.
Even after billions and billions of development dollars Microsoft still breaks lots of applications on their major releases. I've been working on a server 2003 system that we've had to tweak and fiddle with for over a month to get a couple of applications to work properly, and we're still working on them. There are a couple more that will not work and have to be abandoned. These are older applications, so that could be the problem, but they were running on server 2000. No one can tell me that they are 100% compatible, because they are not.
Which would I rather do, try to get a program to work that is proprietary on a proprietary system or open source on an open source system? Hmmmmm. Let me think.
Also, if you want an open source application be backward compatible, send a little money to the authors. I bet you'll get a much better response from them than you would from a company that charges you an arm and a leg for a proprietary application. Try getting Microsoft to make a change to their system! Even large companies have to usually take what they get pushed on them from Microsoft.
It is not about whether or not people will be coding. That was just a stupid comment. Most people don't code and never will. The fundamental importance lies elsewhere.
If you use a proprietary system, then they decide to change something, and you don't like it, you no longer have the choice of keeping current without accepting the things that you don't like.
If you use a proprietary system, then they change things, but it breaks what you are doing, unless you have deep pockets you have no choice but to stay behind, or move elsewhere.
If you use an open source system, you can stay where you are or take upgrades and fix them so that you are still updated, but still working. Freedom, choice, happiness.
Most people wouldn't care about after-market car parts if it weren't for the fact that they would have to pay more than double for their parts if the after-market parts weren't there. I recently had a radiator replaced on my car. The after-market radiator cost 50% less and the warranty was double the Mazda radiator. If I had not had the option of the "open-source" part, I would have paid even more because there would have been no competition for my business.
It is worse in the computer market place because the system that you use with Microsoft products is pretty much sealed up and you have no choice but to replace your OS parts with MS parts. Sure there are products that you can buy, but not the OS itself. It's kind of like having the choice of changing the seats and steering wheel with alternate sources, but anything connected with the motor or transmission would have to be from the original manufacturer.
In addition, the DMCA makes it illegal to even try to make an after-market software part. Such legislation doesn't exist for the automobile industry. Sen. Orin Hatch, the author of the DMCA, was bought and paid for by the industry. He may have thought he was doing something good, but if so he was sold a bill of goods. What we need is someone with the balls to stand up to the illegal monopolistic practices acts of Microsoft, and repeal the DMCA.
If Joe Average sees two identical computers sitting side by, one with Windows and one with Linux, and likes both of them equally, most likely Joe will buy the Windows machine. If there were a $100 difference, then there would be a greater chance of Joe choosing the Linux system. Even a $50 difference would be enough for some.
Until a retailer has the balls to put a competitively priced Linux box side-by-side with the Windows machines, I don't see lots changing, unfortunately. I also don't see many retailers wanting to make Microsoft mad at them by doing so. It's kind of like paying protection money to the local thugs. No one wants their knees broken.
People also don't know the advantages of Linux over Windows, like no viruses or spy-ware, better and faster updates, better security, etc. Every time Gates and Balmer say, "this is the most secure, reliable OS we've ever put out," I have to laugh. People actually believe that they are better than anyone (not just better than previous releases - speaking of which, each release of Windows better be better than the previous one!). It's because they believe marketing drivel.
Microsoft charged less for larger customers in order to seal up their monopoly. If they had charged everyone the same price, then there would have been no incentive for Dell to sell Windows with every computer. As it was, the larger the company, the more they saved, the faster MS got a strangle hold on the industry.
I found something interesting when a neighbor's Dell computer needed to be reinstalled. He no longer had an install or recovery CD and I didn't have one either. I downloaded a copy from the Internet and loaded it on the system. It never asked for a key or anything. I don't think it was a cracked version because it passed WGA fine, and there didn't seem to be any "oddities." I suppose there was a time when you could say "if you bought a Dell, you also bought Windows." So why make their customers go through the registration thing. Their CD's won't load on anyone else's computers, so they were pretty safe to put out a CD that could be loaded on a Dell computer as many times as you like and never enter a key. That was the power of Microsoft's monopoly.
I refuse to pay money to Microsoft unless someone puts a gun to my head. I did pick up a copy of XP (the upgrade) for a neighbor and installed it from scratch using an old 98 CD that I had lying around to show that I could use the upgrade version. The special gave me the copy of XP upgrade for $10 after the rebate. Hopefully that meant that MS wasn't getting a cent of money for that copy. Chances are they were getting something, though. If Gates and Balmer were milking machine salesmen, they'd probably sell two machines to a farmer with one cow, and take the cow as a down payment.
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I agree completely. I get FAR more done in the same time using Linux. I could use either for my desktop at work or home. In fact they have a standardized install of Windows at work that they'd prefer people use. I've used it, but it was slower. I've been in the computer industry for 30 years, and I've used LOTS of different systems. The only thing that MS products have over the competition is that they have locked things in so tightly that when some dumb ass creates something that can't be used without a MS product, you will probably be better off using the damn MS product. Actually, just shoot the dumb ass that made it with an Smith & Wesson product. Problem solved. :)
Support for your employees?? Might as well buy bras for your female employees and cups for your male employees as spend money on Microsoft support. They'll get much better support that way. You even get better information about FOS when you google than you do about MSOffice.
My Dell Latitude D820 is loaded up with Ubuntu Intrepid Ibex. My co-workers use Windows. Yesterday I got our department Sprint data card. They told me it would probably take me a bit to get it working on the laptop (because it took them a while to get the driver installed and setup to run). So I took the card and inserted it into the PCMCIA slot. In about 20 seconds (without my doing ANYTHING else) it was connected to Sprint's network and I was using it like the laptop was born to use it.
I use it for doing every task that I have to do for work. There are over ten thousand windows users here at work. We went through a big change from Groupwise to Exchange and Outlook. I use Evolution, and I get complete access to everything I need - scheduling, email, the works.
When people say that Linux is not ready for business use, they smoking somethin' that making them see the world in a false and distorted way. I'll never go back to Windows.
It's not difficult, it's just screwed up. Why should they have so many differing levels of the OS other than marketing and a way to make more money? You get people in with the crappy starter versions, then when they realize what a piece of crap it is, they go to the next level, always paying more to do it, and getting just slightly less crappy software all along the upgrade path until you buy the top of the line crap that's less crappy, but still crap, but you *feel* better about it because you paid more.
Bait and Switch is illegal, but this is a similar marketing method. Bait and switch is getting them in with a low-cost item, then getting them to buy the higher priced one. With the Windoze marketing, they don't switch, they just get you to buy an upgrade. Same basic strategy. Different, but unfortunately legal, method of execution.
It's also an appeal to customer vanity, jut like fashion. What makes a pair of faded, beat-up, torn jeans from a trendy shop more valuable than a pair of jeans from a thrift shop? The price is higher because of the designer label. "My jeans are better than yours because I paid more!"
Same thing for versions of Windoze. "I've got the Uber-Premium, Ultimate, Kick-Ass, Expensive version of Windows on *MY* machine! What's on yours?"
Consumer stupidity and corporate greed are what have put our society in the crapper. If you don't think I'm talking about you, you're probably wrong.
For those who are die-hard Apple fans (and they are the largest group of iPhone purchasers), the only way to make an iPhone Killer is to have Apple be the one to make it.
Let's face it people, if Apple came out with Apple iFeces, there would be a line around the block of Apple fans eager to buy it on the first day.
Most people leaving a religion do so at a time and for a reason that helps them make their "statement" against the religion. They usually have plenty of other reasons (founded or unfounded), and pick one that they feel will best play out for themselves.
Interestingly enough, most of the people that leave the Mormon Church don't have their names taken from the records of the church so that at some later time if they need some help (welfare assistance), it is easier to get. That's pure hypocrisy. Who needs hypocrites?
I'm fine with people leaving a religion. The Mormon Church doesn't make them remain members. Not only will it not make them remain members, but if they ask to be removed from the records, they comply with the request. And even those who are most vocal against it can be welcomed back "into the fold." (Of course, you can't still be against the church and be welcomed back in at the same time. Every group has it limits on participation criteria, including your local Credit Union. You can't rob a bank and then deposit that money in an account there if they know you are the thief.)
If someone leaves the Mormon Church over Prop 8, they obviously don't have much in common with the tenants of the religion. Kind of like a Jew leaving their synagogue because they weren't going to serve a Christmas ham at a Hanukkah celebration.
Birds of a feather flock together. I don't usually see to many ostriches mingling with seagulls. Do you?
Reminds me more of the Biology teacher confiscating the religious text (in what ever form) from the student and sending them to detention for being stupid, writing a letter to the parents telling them that there is to be absolutely no religion in the schools, and calling the ACLU to sue the author for creating an threatening work environment for the teacher.
I'm 51 also and I'm doing web work that is more advanced than most all of the other 200 web developers in the department. I also am asked by others about how to do *this*, or why is *that* not working, even in things that I haven't worked on much for *years*. I also get along with more people better than most. I learn new technologies quickly and I'm a better problem solver than most. Maybe I'm rare, but I don't think a generalization that older IT folks fall behind is valid. I also know other old duffers like me that aren't falling behind. I think it depends on what you do on your job. I have never been tied down to COBOL programming (or anything like that). I think it is what you are doing on your job that makes a big difference, and that goes more to the employer.
To be perfectly clear... Windows is the pig.
http://www.youperview.com/ accepts longer and higher resolution (quality) videos, and you can make money from the video. Since it is a pay-per-view site, you can have a preview video that is available to all, but to view the complete video one must pay (and the price is set by the video producer, not the youperview site). The preview can be embedded into a web page, and you can send people to the youperview site to view the full video. As with any video, you probably want to tailor your video to play nicely, without taking lots of time to download so that one doesn't have to view lots of pauses as the large file buffers more to be viewed.
I've NEVER understood that. Why throw money down the toilet just to reduce the amount of taxes you pay on your income? If I have $100 that I invest for a loss, and loose it all, isn't that worse that paying $90 in taxes on the $100 and keeping $10?
Well, I'm not sure what your point was, but google found only 4 references to "the_wombie", and I haven't a clue what/who "the_wombie" refers to. So you could be right, or maybe you just proved my point - again.
Smarter than you, obviously, lwriemen.
Someone needs to look a little closer at how one can customize these interfaces. My Gnome desktop looks very much like Aqua. So if you like Aqua, you can like Gnome (or KDE). The nice thing is that these interfaces are configurable.
One's ignorance goes a long way towards showing one's... well... ignorance.
Interesting???? You mean "stupid," don't you?
In this day of virtual, all of this could be done with starting a new virtual machine for each user. Once the user is gone, so it the virtual machine. Yes, it would take longer to boot than windows 3.1, but you could have a second virtual waiting in the wings for when the logout happens, then start another one up to be waiting for when the current one is logged out.
There's always more than one way to skin a cat. If you like to have the cat screaming and scratching while you skin it, that is possible, but I prefer to skin my cats when they are dead. People too often want the elegant solution when the right solution is far simpler.
The DRM will be such that you have to use their player, or a player that is compliant with their DRM. It will then not play until you pay - that video for that player on that machine.
Yes, someone could crack it - theoretically. So what.
Don't buy DRM anything!!! It is just heroin and crack for the entertainment industry. If they think they can get away with it because people are buying it, they they will continue to do it. If they get no revenue from it, they will discontinue it. That doesn't mean that they won't try to get your money some other way, but if they see that people don't want DRM crap, and it's not profitable, they will stop it. We need to make them give us what we want, not what they want to give to us.
DRM is bad. Just say no!
The only way to make the mafia arm of the music industry realize that they will not get your money is to stop giving them your money, but you must also not abuse copyrights so that they don't think that you're going to steal from the real pirates (RIAA and their associated labels). By all means use the law to your favor and keep fair use alive. Use the library. If they only get 1/20 the sales, but there is no pirating, illegal sharing, etc., then maybe they will wake up. But if you give them money, you are only feeding their habit. Make them stop cold turkey. They need to enter rehab. They are addicted to the cash flow. Just say no to expensive or encumbered music!
Oh, and Don't buy DRM music.
The Japanese make swords (and chisels, etc.) by pulling (stretching) the metal lengthwise, then folding it back on itself and hammering it back together. If there were carbon bubbles within this steel, then the stretching (after the hundreds (if not thousands) of times it is pulled outwards could form the tubes that get stretched and lengthened each time they pull the metal, getting smaller and longer with each pull. The secret to the Damascus swords, if made in a similar manner, would be in creating the Wootz steel.
Anyone got the recipe?
Giving away billions to the needy is her way of making up for Bob.
His wife is responsible for his philanthropy. I don't think he was even someone you could consider a philanthropist until he got married. His fortune was his scorecard in the game of life. It was the only way he could show he was better than everyone else.
The "Developers, developers, developers, developers" part.
Even after billions and billions of development dollars Microsoft still breaks lots of applications on their major releases. I've been working on a server 2003 system that we've had to tweak and fiddle with for over a month to get a couple of applications to work properly, and we're still working on them. There are a couple more that will not work and have to be abandoned. These are older applications, so that could be the problem, but they were running on server 2000. No one can tell me that they are 100% compatible, because they are not.
Which would I rather do, try to get a program to work that is proprietary on a proprietary system or open source on an open source system? Hmmmmm. Let me think.
Also, if you want an open source application be backward compatible, send a little money to the authors. I bet you'll get a much better response from them than you would from a company that charges you an arm and a leg for a proprietary application. Try getting Microsoft to make a change to their system! Even large companies have to usually take what they get pushed on them from Microsoft.
It is not about whether or not people will be coding. That was just a stupid comment. Most people don't code and never will. The fundamental importance lies elsewhere.
If you use a proprietary system, then they decide to change something, and you don't like it, you no longer have the choice of keeping current without accepting the things that you don't like.
If you use a proprietary system, then they change things, but it breaks what you are doing, unless you have deep pockets you have no choice but to stay behind, or move elsewhere.
If you use an open source system, you can stay where you are or take upgrades and fix them so that you are still updated, but still working. Freedom, choice, happiness.
Most people wouldn't care about after-market car parts if it weren't for the fact that they would have to pay more than double for their parts if the after-market parts weren't there. I recently had a radiator replaced on my car. The after-market radiator cost 50% less and the warranty was double the Mazda radiator. If I had not had the option of the "open-source" part, I would have paid even more because there would have been no competition for my business.
It is worse in the computer market place because the system that you use with Microsoft products is pretty much sealed up and you have no choice but to replace your OS parts with MS parts. Sure there are products that you can buy, but not the OS itself. It's kind of like having the choice of changing the seats and steering wheel with alternate sources, but anything connected with the motor or transmission would have to be from the original manufacturer.
In addition, the DMCA makes it illegal to even try to make an after-market software part. Such legislation doesn't exist for the automobile industry. Sen. Orin Hatch, the author of the DMCA, was bought and paid for by the industry. He may have thought he was doing something good, but if so he was sold a bill of goods. What we need is someone with the balls to stand up to the illegal monopolistic practices acts of Microsoft, and repeal the DMCA.
If Joe Average sees two identical computers sitting side by, one with Windows and one with Linux, and likes both of them equally, most likely Joe will buy the Windows machine. If there were a $100 difference, then there would be a greater chance of Joe choosing the Linux system. Even a $50 difference would be enough for some.
Until a retailer has the balls to put a competitively priced Linux box side-by-side with the Windows machines, I don't see lots changing, unfortunately. I also don't see many retailers wanting to make Microsoft mad at them by doing so. It's kind of like paying protection money to the local thugs. No one wants their knees broken.
People also don't know the advantages of Linux over Windows, like no viruses or spy-ware, better and faster updates, better security, etc. Every time Gates and Balmer say, "this is the most secure, reliable OS we've ever put out," I have to laugh. People actually believe that they are better than anyone (not just better than previous releases - speaking of which, each release of Windows better be better than the previous one!). It's because they believe marketing drivel.
Microsoft charged less for larger customers in order to seal up their monopoly. If they had charged everyone the same price, then there would have been no incentive for Dell to sell Windows with every computer. As it was, the larger the company, the more they saved, the faster MS got a strangle hold on the industry.
I found something interesting when a neighbor's Dell computer needed to be reinstalled. He no longer had an install or recovery CD and I didn't have one either. I downloaded a copy from the Internet and loaded it on the system. It never asked for a key or anything. I don't think it was a cracked version because it passed WGA fine, and there didn't seem to be any "oddities." I suppose there was a time when you could say "if you bought a Dell, you also bought Windows." So why make their customers go through the registration thing. Their CD's won't load on anyone else's computers, so they were pretty safe to put out a CD that could be loaded on a Dell computer as many times as you like and never enter a key. That was the power of Microsoft's monopoly.
I refuse to pay money to Microsoft unless someone puts a gun to my head. I did pick up a copy of XP (the upgrade) for a neighbor and installed it from scratch using an old 98 CD that I had lying around to show that I could use the upgrade version. The special gave me the copy of XP upgrade for $10 after the rebate. Hopefully that meant that MS wasn't getting a cent of money for that copy. Chances are they were getting something, though. If Gates and Balmer were milking machine salesmen, they'd probably sell two machines to a farmer with one cow, and take the cow as a down payment.