When Linus can start delegating authority over subsystems, when Linus can learn to use revision control, when any kind of coordination of changes affecting multiple subsystems does or even *can* go through anyone but Linus himself, then perhaps he won't need to personally review each and every patch that comes to him.
As it is now, he doesn't even trust Alan Cox to maintain any part of the official tree -- he still has to send Linus patches. Forks do happen in a project, when such sweeping changes are needed, and they get merged in later versions. Linus tacitly admits this because he can find an incremental way to do it each time. In other cases, people decided to just stop trying to go through Linus, because they know what Linus doesn't: Linus doesn't know everything. --
No, it's the feeling that you've seen this 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,0 00,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 times before. sort of like the feeling you get reading "i'm going to patent frivolous patents" posts on the patent topic, but not quite as strong. --
Step 6: replace FrontPage with DreamWeaver so you can lay out pages in less than days on the taxpayer dime.
Step 7: Call your lawyer to deal with all the lawsuits from the people you fired since nowhere in the job description nor in any management communication was "frontpage is forbidden" expressed until the pink slip was handed out.
Step 8: Hire a whole new web crew now that the remaining overstressed webmasters who did know their shit have quit.
Debian has tossed around the idea of a BSD distribution, but the idea usually dies off quickly. Debian GNU/BSD is unlikely. Although the BSD license gives Debian every right to fork the codebase and GPL it, it not only be a public relations disaster for Debian in garnering the ill will of the BSD developer community, the split would become technically enforced as well, since the GNU fork would find itself having to backport any changes made to the BSD codebase. I don't think Debian would be stupid enough to GPL a distro of BSD.
Yes, BSD has packages. Not great, but serviceable. BSD doesn't need apt, it has ports, which is based on a perfectly good dependency-management tool with support for pre and post-installation and hooks at any point of the build and install process. It's called make. --
Dated? The ports collection almost invariably tracks the very same sources Linux compiles from (and often has to apply patches to remove linuxisms from the code). Granted, ports aren't updated as quickly as linux packages are made, but it's a stretch and a half to call them outdated. You *have* updated your ports tree with cvsup, haven't you?
And isn't it nice BSD will run just about anything Linux can? Quake III for Linux runs just as fast under BSD as Linux (some say faster).
You use pkg_delete? I have always just installed one port over the old. Why? Because once you cvsup the port, make deinstall fails to work. pkg_delete and all the pkg_* commands are a pain because they demand the exact *version* of the package in the name. Basically I use ports as an autobuild mechanism, but the package management may as well not exist. Funny thing, my system hasn't keeled over for it yet. I don't miss having to --nodeps every other RPM on my redhat box or deal with debian's weird notions of meta-packages like that perl debacle (which is still about as confusing as can be).
I usually recommend freebsd to people who like slackware. I call it "slackware done right". You get all the benefits of manual control and compiling everything from scratch, with lots of automation for the rote tasks -- like compiling everything from scratch. --
> Some kind of a meta port that installs a userfriendly desktop along with a standard set of apps would be super cool.
You mean like/usr/ports/x11/kde2 and/usr/ports/x11/gnome? They're there. Takes freakin forever to compile it all, but they're there.
GNUstep already exists for FreeBSD BTW./usr/ports/devel/gnustep. Not too useful by itself, better to just install the windowmaker port and it'll install gnustep too. --
Just a note: step 5 and 6 have changed, they are now:
5. cd/usr/src
6. make kernel KERNEL=YOUR_KERN_CONF
7. make installkernel KERNEL=YOUR_KERN_CONF
One neat thing about FreeBSD's process is that it makes it easier to keep multiple kernel configs around. Linux's lets you save a kernel configuration file, but it clobbers an old build of a different configuration when you use the new configuration.
oh btw, you kinda forgot make world:)
apt-get upgrade is still pretty neat though, cvsup is nice for syncing the sources, but not too useful at telling you what's changed and upgrading single ports or pieces of userland at a time. --
> I installed freebsd on a box and I couldnt get the newest version of apache for it...
/usr/ports/www/apache13 contains apache 1.3.14. I haven't run cvsup since 17 was released a week ago (which immediately followed 14, there was no 15 or 16). Checking http://www.freebsd.org/ports, i see that the current apache package (and therefore port) is indeed 1.3.17. apache is compiled from the exact same codebase as apache for linux. it is likely to be bug-for-bug compatible.
/usr/ports/www/mod_php4 contains PHP 4.04pl1, exactly the current version of PHP.
sshd is configured by default to disallow direct logins of root, you are expected to su. This is fixable, one starts by reading the documentation for sshd. Don't mean to be snippy, but that's a feature.
ISO images of FreeBSD are available at ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/releases/i386/IS O-IMAGES/. Personally I install from FTP, but I've always had mad bandwidth whenever I've installed.
Yes, and the implicit message being that if everyone cooperates all the time, everyone maximizes their benefit. Because the game is rigged to produce that end.
Try this more realistic variant on for size: change the third rule to pay out 8 credits instead of 5. Any reasonably bright kid, and any adult with any experience in reasoning can figure out what they're going to get on average if they alternate 5-0-5-0-5-0 and so on. Alternating 8-0-8-0-8-0 on the other hand... What you get is people trying to get in sync, alternately competing and not. But when one doesn't *know* who the other prisoner is at any one time (you pass out chits with numbers on them instead), that's when it gets interesting. --
> There's even a tail-call instruction for functional langauges, put in at the request of the brights at Microsoft Research.
pfft. wow, they implemented an alias for unconditional jump. when the model supports first-class continuations and activations that do not assume a stack model (e.g. the security monitor being able to track through continuation chains instead of "the stack") then i will believe that they gave more than lip service to functional languages.
> The market is turning into two camps: Microsoft and Anything But Microsoft. Lines are being drawn, and I think MS will shortly be on the retreat, rethinking these ideas...
There's also the camp consisting of those of us who work for a living and really don't give a good god damn about these silly little treehouse wars, who develop java applications on Microsoft Windows, with Sun's JVM, to run primarily on Microsoft Internet Explorer, served by a FreeBSD server, with the network managed by Linux.
> They can't use Sun's IP. That means that they can't produce a Java anything.
This disturbs me immensely that a language is being claimed as someone else's property. Even if you write a compiler from scratch, most java tools will not work without the sun.* packages. Didn't this whole flap start from MS tainting the precious sanctity of the core java packages?
If Java were part of a standards body, MS Java would simply not have met certification. Instead, Sun sued. If I distributed a modified and possibly broken C++, there is no C++ Inc that can sue me over it.
MS was an easy target for you to hate. If Sun turned its guns on me, I'd be out on the street. --
Re:Do this on other platforms
on
2.2 vs 2.4
·
· Score: 2
> I mean't, the kernel, I don't consider the rest of the distribution to be the O/S.
Apparently Linus doesn't even consider necessary parts of the kernel to be worthy of the distribution. New kernel, old modutils? Better hope your network driver on that headless box wasn't a module. Better hope init still works too. --
Re:Do this on other platforms
on
2.2 vs 2.4
·
· Score: 2
> The *full* version ? This means everything from the kernel to the applications, including the C library. On what linux distro did you do that ?
If I'm not mistaken, Debian can do this. I believe it compiles source.debs if you tell it to "install" one. If not, then make dist-upgrade would be a binary-only thing (and you still have to fetch whole packages at once anyway).
Debian's about as close as it gets to ports, and it's smarter about downloading dependencies simultaneously. --
Unfortunately Linux is emerging onto the platform scene when there is already a significant surplus of better-supported options. NT, Solaris, AIX, etc...
Do I really need to continue this argument? Python cracked Perl's armor just fine, and it appears Ruby has already overtaken Python in its country of origin. People still write scripts in shell and tcl too. --
Slashdot Mirror
When Linus can start delegating authority over subsystems, when Linus can learn to use revision control, when any kind of coordination of changes affecting multiple subsystems does or even *can* go through anyone but Linus himself, then perhaps he won't need to personally review each and every patch that comes to him.
As it is now, he doesn't even trust Alan Cox to maintain any part of the official tree -- he still has to send Linus patches. Forks do happen in a project, when such sweeping changes are needed, and they get merged in later versions. Linus tacitly admits this because he can find an incremental way to do it each time. In other cases, people decided to just stop trying to go through Linus, because they know what Linus doesn't: Linus doesn't know everything.
--
No, it's the feeling that you've seen this 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 ,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,0 00,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 times before. sort of like the feeling you get reading "i'm going to patent frivolous patents" posts on the patent topic, but not quite as strong.
--
insightful? looks like the moderators have been smoking the cheap crack again.
--
Microsoft is not evil nor ruthless
Yes they are.
skillful riposte. are you going to hold your breath til you turn blue when someone says "are not"?
--
Step 6: replace FrontPage with DreamWeaver so you can lay out pages in less than days on the taxpayer dime.
Step 7: Call your lawyer to deal with all the lawsuits from the people you fired since nowhere in the job description nor in any management communication was "frontpage is forbidden" expressed until the pink slip was handed out.
Step 8: Hire a whole new web crew now that the remaining overstressed webmasters who did know their shit have quit.
Step 9: Go to step 1.
--
If they didn't GPL the kernel, just perhaps the term GNU /BSD is a little mistaken. God damn people, read what I say for once.
--
Debian has tossed around the idea of a BSD distribution, but the idea usually dies off quickly. Debian GNU/BSD is unlikely. Although the BSD license gives Debian every right to fork the codebase and GPL it, it not only be a public relations disaster for Debian in garnering the ill will of the BSD developer community, the split would become technically enforced as well, since the GNU fork would find itself having to backport any changes made to the BSD codebase. I don't think Debian would be stupid enough to GPL a distro of BSD.
Yes, BSD has packages. Not great, but serviceable. BSD doesn't need apt, it has ports, which is based on a perfectly good dependency-management tool with support for pre and post-installation and hooks at any point of the build and install process. It's called make.
--
Dated? The ports collection almost invariably tracks the very same sources Linux compiles from (and often has to apply patches to remove linuxisms from the code). Granted, ports aren't updated as quickly as linux packages are made, but it's a stretch and a half to call them outdated. You *have* updated your ports tree with cvsup, haven't you?
And isn't it nice BSD will run just about anything Linux can? Quake III for Linux runs just as fast under BSD as Linux (some say faster).
--
You use pkg_delete? I have always just installed one port over the old. Why? Because once you cvsup the port, make deinstall fails to work. pkg_delete and all the pkg_* commands are a pain because they demand the exact *version* of the package in the name. Basically I use ports as an autobuild mechanism, but the package management may as well not exist. Funny thing, my system hasn't keeled over for it yet. I don't miss having to --nodeps every other RPM on my redhat box or deal with debian's weird notions of meta-packages like that perl debacle (which is still about as confusing as can be).
I usually recommend freebsd to people who like slackware. I call it "slackware done right". You get all the benefits of manual control and compiling everything from scratch, with lots of automation for the rote tasks -- like compiling everything from scratch.
--
> Some kind of a meta port that installs a userfriendly desktop along with a standard set of apps would be super cool.
/usr/ports/x11/kde2 and /usr/ports/x11/gnome? They're there. Takes freakin forever to compile it all, but they're there.
/usr/ports/devel/gnustep. Not too useful by itself, better to just install the windowmaker port and it'll install gnustep too.
You mean like
GNUstep already exists for FreeBSD BTW.
--
Just a note: step 5 and 6 have changed, they are now:
/usr/src
:)
5. cd
6. make kernel KERNEL=YOUR_KERN_CONF
7. make installkernel KERNEL=YOUR_KERN_CONF
One neat thing about FreeBSD's process is that it makes it easier to keep multiple kernel configs around. Linux's lets you save a kernel configuration file, but it clobbers an old build of a different configuration when you use the new configuration.
oh btw, you kinda forgot make world
apt-get upgrade is still pretty neat though, cvsup is nice for syncing the sources, but not too useful at telling you what's changed and upgrading single ports or pieces of userland at a time.
--
> I installed freebsd on a box and I couldnt get the newest version of apache for it...
S O-IMAGES/. Personally I install from FTP, but I've always had mad bandwidth whenever I've installed.
/usr/ports/www/apache13 contains apache 1.3.14. I haven't run cvsup since 17 was released a week ago (which immediately followed 14, there was no 15 or 16). Checking http://www.freebsd.org/ports, i see that the current apache package (and therefore port) is indeed 1.3.17. apache is compiled from the exact same codebase as apache for linux. it is likely to be bug-for-bug compatible.
/usr/ports/www/mod_php4 contains PHP 4.04pl1, exactly the current version of PHP.
sshd is configured by default to disallow direct logins of root, you are expected to su. This is fixable, one starts by reading the documentation for sshd. Don't mean to be snippy, but that's a feature.
ISO images of FreeBSD are available at ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/releases/i386/I
--
Was that supposed to do anything? Does absolutely jack when I run it.
--
Yes, and the implicit message being that if everyone cooperates all the time, everyone maximizes their benefit. Because the game is rigged to produce that end.
... What you get is people trying to get in sync, alternately competing and not. But when one doesn't *know* who the other prisoner is at any one time (you pass out chits with numbers on them instead), that's when it gets interesting.
Try this more realistic variant on for size: change the third rule to pay out 8 credits instead of 5. Any reasonably bright kid, and any adult with any experience in reasoning can figure out what they're going to get on average if they alternate 5-0-5-0-5-0 and so on. Alternating 8-0-8-0-8-0 on the other hand
--
> a) Suzy Radcliffe age 9 likes to read Kuro5hin and keep abreast of the latest benchmarks on tpc.org.
She certainly won't be doing anything of the sort at her school.
--
> There's even a tail-call instruction for functional langauges, put in at the request of the brights at Microsoft Research.
pfft. wow, they implemented an alias for unconditional jump. when the model supports first-class continuations and activations that do not assume a stack model (e.g. the security monitor being able to track through continuation chains instead of "the stack") then i will believe that they gave more than lip service to functional languages.
mind you the JVM is much much worse.
--
Long as you continue to post, you validate slashdot. I'm just getting off a few parting shots before I drop /. off my bookmarks entirely.
--
This was moderated up?
Stuff this. Look for me on half-empty.
--
Who the hell still runs IE2? You can get IE3 for Win3.1. You can't run Asheron's Call under DOS either.
Look at microsoft.com in lynx sometime (not a framed one, try w3m for that). Now try netscape.com.
--
> The market is turning into two camps: Microsoft and Anything But Microsoft. Lines are being drawn, and I think MS will shortly be on the retreat, rethinking these ideas...
There's also the camp consisting of those of us who work for a living and really don't give a good god damn about these silly little treehouse wars, who develop java applications on Microsoft Windows, with Sun's JVM, to run primarily on Microsoft Internet Explorer, served by a FreeBSD server, with the network managed by Linux.
Have fun in your awkward little monoculture.
--
> They can't use Sun's IP. That means that they can't produce a Java anything.
This disturbs me immensely that a language is being claimed as someone else's property. Even if you write a compiler from scratch, most java tools will not work without the sun.* packages. Didn't this whole flap start from MS tainting the precious sanctity of the core java packages?
If Java were part of a standards body, MS Java would simply not have met certification. Instead, Sun sued. If I distributed a modified and possibly broken C++, there is no C++ Inc that can sue me over it.
MS was an easy target for you to hate. If Sun turned its guns on me, I'd be out on the street.
--
> I mean't, the kernel, I don't consider the rest of the distribution to be the O/S.
Apparently Linus doesn't even consider necessary parts of the kernel to be worthy of the distribution. New kernel, old modutils? Better hope your network driver on that headless box wasn't a module. Better hope init still works too.
--
> The *full* version ? This means everything from the kernel to the applications, including the C library. On what linux distro did you do that ?
.debs if you tell it to "install" one. If not, then make dist-upgrade would be a binary-only thing (and you still have to fetch whole packages at once anyway).
If I'm not mistaken, Debian can do this. I believe it compiles source
Debian's about as close as it gets to ports, and it's smarter about downloading dependencies simultaneously.
--
I still can't get over how absolutely negative you all are over every single Katz article
Voices from the Hellmouth Revisited: Part Ten
There's your first clue.
--
Unfortunately Linux is emerging onto the platform scene when there is already a significant surplus of better-supported options. NT, Solaris, AIX, etc ...
Do I really need to continue this argument? Python cracked Perl's armor just fine, and it appears Ruby has already overtaken Python in its country of origin. People still write scripts in shell and tcl too.
--